June 18, 2025 • 29 mins
What happens when you hire before you're ready? If you're Nicole McCance — retired psychologist turned business coach — you build a 7-figure practice with 55 therapists.
In this episode, Nicole joins Denzil to talk about this journey. She shares her tips on why systemizing before you hire is a game-changer, how to build your dream team, and how to attract your perfect candidate with a great job post.
What You’ll Learn
- Tips for getting started – even when it’s scary
- Nicole’s 5-step method for growing a thriving clinic
- How to use personality tests to filter out poor-fit candidates
- The value of clear feedback (and how to make giving it less difficult!)
Guest Bio
Nicole McCance is a Psychologist (retired) turned Business Coach for therapists scaling to a group practice. She expanded her private practice to 55 therapists and multiple 7 figures in 3 years (with toddler twins at home). Nicole sold her clinic in the 4th year and then retired as a Psychologist in her 5th year. She now teaches therapists how to help more people, make more money, and have more freedom following her proven method.
Resources mentioned
- The McCance Method - website
- The McCance Method on Instagram
- The Business Savvy Therapist Podcast
- The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle
- The Big Five personality test
- Kolbe personality test
- Nicole’s Playbook - 5 steps for hiring & retention
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We like to make sure that when we tell you more about Jane, it’s super helpful. Here’s one we think you might like:
If this episode has you thinking about hiring your first team member, Jane’s got your back.
You can set up practitioner schedules, assign admin shifts, manage time off, and keep everyone in sync — without the spreadsheet headaches. It’s super intuitive (think: colour-coded calendars and real-time updates), and it works whether you’re just getting started or scaling your practice like Nicole.
Learn more about Jane’s admin scheduling features
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional medical, legal, or financial advice.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast host or its affiliates.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
please systemize before you hire, otherwise
you're not a CEO, you're a CQAchief question answer.
So get everything out of yourhead.
Get everything out of your head, put it in a Google Drive and
then you can train people, trainthem well, and they won't come
to you.
That's step one.
Step two is how to build youractual dream team.
They're looking for you rightnow.
It's just about posting, andyou haven't posted that job
(00:21):
posting.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to Radio Front Desk by JNAP.
I'm your host, denzel Ford.
What's stopping you from makingyour first hire?
Is it fear, overwhelm, or areyou just not sure where to start
?
Today's guest, nicole McCants,knows exactly how that feels.
When Nicole made her first hire, she was nowhere near what
(00:48):
she'd call ready, but she did itanyway, and it's a good thing
she did.
Over the next five years, shebuilt a seven-figure practice,
growing from one to 55therapists.
Now she's teaching others howto do the same.
Nicole has a strategy strategyand it works.
In this episode, she'll breakdown why systemizing before you
(01:10):
hire is a game changer.
She explains how to actuallybuild your dream team and how to
attract your perfect candidatewith a great job post.
Grab a coffee, turn up thevolume and let's get started.
Welcome, nicole.
I'm so glad to talk to youtoday.
I'm so happy to be here.
Turn up the volume and let'sget started.
Welcome, nicole, I'm so glad totalk to you today.
(01:31):
I'm so happy to be here.
We're here at Jane's live eventin the supposedly sunny Palm
Springs but it is not sunnytoday.
It's very windy, stormy, alittle rain on the window.
Yeah, I didn't know it rainedin the desert.
I didn't know it rained in thedesert in May.
But anyway, your story is liketruly incredible.
You have hired large number oftherapists.
Is it really 55 therapists?
(01:51):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, okay, 24 rooms, 7,000 square feet.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Wow, okay.
So it's just an amazingaccomplishment.
It's such a like inspirationfor so many people out there
starting their own businesses.
What really caught my attentionwas when you made your first
hire.
You say that you didn't reallyfeel ready to do that.
You had twins.
You were feeling maxed out andI'm I'm understanding that.
You say do it anyway and do itscared.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, can you say a little bit about that?
So one of my mantras to live byis do it scared.
Oh my gosh, like what would yoube doing in life if every day
you just knew to do it scared?
Because the thing about fear,there's this instinct to stop,
to freeze, to not do.
But what if you told yourself,like the 1%, actually do it
scared.
And so the twins were very,very little, but for me I was
(02:39):
just a baby boss and what I toldmyself is what if I hire baby
therapists?
They felt less intimidating.
What?
By baby therapist I meansomebody that's green in their
career.
I'm a baby boss, you're a babytherapist and we can grow
together.
So that really helped me do itscared, but it felt like a small
step in a way.
A fully licensed person feltmore scary interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I have this philosophy in life.
I probably say it too manytimes, but I'm going to say it
again.
I want to do things that feeltoo hard, and it almost feels
like you're doing that.
Like this feels too hard but,there's like steps that you can
do along the way to get to thebigger vision.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so funny.
When I became pregnant, Iremember thinking, oh my God,
this is going to be hard.
Like how do you even do thatLike breastfeed at the same time
, like all those things right.
But then I remember tellingmyself, wait, I can do hard.
Looking back at all the thingsthat happened in my life like,
wait a minute, no, I can do hard.
What an amazing mantra to liveby.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So what would you say to someone who's sitting in
that hesitation right now?
Well, I think the first thingis really connecting with what
you want, like, what is yourgoal?
For me, I wanted to be homemore.
I was so sick of getting homeevery night at 7 PM and my kids
looking out the window andmissing their mama.
So my why was just bigger thanmy fear.
So I think also if, honestly, ifyou were to tell me that I
would have had 55 therapists, Iwould have said there's no way I
would do that.
Who?
You know what I mean?
That just seems like a wholelot.
So it's just one step, guyslistening like what would be
(04:12):
just the first step?
That's way less scary.
And then sometimes I don't knowyour belief, but I also believe
that, like me, doing that wasactually bigger than me, so I
felt like it was pulling me.
Does that make sense?
Like, after I took the firststep, the next step was evident.
Yeah, it's kind of like drivingin the dark and all you can see
(04:34):
is 30 feet in front of you.
But just trust that if you keepgoing, you'll just see the next
30 feet.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I mean what you're saying is really resonating with
me, because I don't do anythingreally that I'm aware of, where
I actually know where I'm goingwhen I set out to do it.
Does anyone really, I mean likeyou, kind of just have to, like
, take what you know in themoment and take steps towards it
and trust and I feel, likethat's trust, right, yeah, so
yeah, I'm loving this so far andwaiting to feel like you're
(05:04):
ready.
Could also just feel likeyou're waiting forever.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Oh my God.
So who has ever woken up andsaid to do the do like nobody.
You know that day like neverhappens ever.
And actually, funny enough, atlunch today someone had said and
I love this so powerful readyis always in hindsight to look
back and be like okay, I wasready, it's.
You don't ever, it doesn't everjust show up.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
There's also like some deeper conversation we can
get into about like being readyis actually not being ready, you
just got to do it.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You just got to go.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, we teach that as therapists behavior
activation it's called.
So if someone's depressed,rather than waiting to feel like
I want to get out of bed, youhave to like get out of bed, and
then you'll feel like you wantto get out of bed.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
It's the same with exercise Just get into the
shower.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Nobody wants to actually exercise.
Yes, just put your shoes on.
Get in the car Exactly Once youget there, you're good.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
So part of your wisdom that we've already tapped
into in like two minutes ofconversation is you've built an
amazing five step method forscaling a clinic and we're going
to zoom into one segment ofthat.
We're going to talk a lot abouthiring today, but just to get
us started and understand, likethe bigger scope of how you
think and your method, could youjust give us a quick rundown on
(06:17):
your Sure, and here's the thingI did so many mistakes, like 55
therapists, probably for 55,000mistakes, so I really wanted to
give somebody five steps.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
so just a high overview.
First, you want to systemize?
Please systemize before youhire, otherwise you're not a CEO
, you're a CQA chief questionanswer because they're always
coming to you.
So if you systemize, build thecontainer before you fill it.
And you mean systemize yourbusiness, yes, put everything
into SOPs.
Looms basically a manual likehow we do things here.
(06:48):
Here are all of our procedures.
So get everything out of yourhead.
Get everything out of your head, put it in a Google Drive and
then you can train people, trainthem well, and they won't come
to you.
That's step one.
Step two is how to build youractual dream team.
They're looking for you.
Right now it's just aboutposting and you haven't posted
that job posting.
And then three I love digitalmarketing because it works while
(07:09):
you sleep.
So attracting clients.
That's what I did to grow withdigital marketing.
And then this is a piece thattherapists forget they stop at
marketing.
They're so hungry for marketing, so much.
But here's the thing.
Then it's converting withconsult calls which is why I
love Jane, because they help somuch with that, and then
retaining with follow ups.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So that's one to five , five steps.
We've also featured you inFront Desk Magazine and in that
article you shared the idea thathiring someone who's a flavor
of you.
Yes, I have so much to say toyou on this, so many questions
to ask, but let's just startwith.
How do you balance findingsomeone who reflects your style
plus bringing in a freshperspective?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yes, oh my gosh, I call it.
Have your first hire, yourfirst hire.
Okay, you can be varied afterthat.
Be your mini me, your mini me.
And here's why I was 27 yearsold, I fell in love and I moved
to Russia.
That's the short version.
Okay, I left my whole practicefor love and I gave it to a
(08:10):
therapist, who is nothing likeme and I don't know what I was
thinking.
So, as you can tell, I'm abigger personality.
I'm very direct and here's thething my clients were used to
that experience, just when yougo to a pizza hut I'm trying to
think American and Canadian herefor restaurants, but like a
pizza hut, it's a certain vibe.
They expect the vibe no matterwhere they go.
They walked in and it was atotally different vibe.
She was more quiet, not direct.
(08:31):
None of them stayed, not one,not one.
And then I fell out of love.
I moved back six months laterand they all came back to me.
So I learned the hard way hireyour mini me, give them a
consistent experience, and thenit's easier to move your clients
over, because I help peoplegrow into group practices and
then you have more time toactually work on the business
(08:53):
and not in it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, I want to get more into how you identify your
mini me.
But first let's dig into alittle bit more of who the hire
should be in your clinic.
So should your first hire be apractitioner or an admin?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
This is a hard one because therapists don't want to
spend money on admin right awaybecause they're not revenue
generating.
But I want you to think of itas what is your time worth?
Are you wasting your time doing$20 tasks?
So I'll tell you I have a sixmonth business coaching program.
Those who hire an admin earlyon in my program grow twice as
fast.
Why?
Because they've offloaded theminutiae, they've offloaded the
(09:35):
overwhelm.
So, if you can, it would be anadmin, and it doesn't have to be
full time.
I think a lot of people thefact that, oh gosh, employee W-2
is what they call it in theStates.
Right, that's overwhelming.
I'm not going to do anything,but what if it was a VA?
What if it was just someone whocould support you for five
hours a week?
And you mean virtual assistant?
(09:55):
Yes, virtual assistant, I think, eventually, front desk you
definitely want somebody at thefront desk creating an
experience and greeting people,and it be a human.
But I think, 100%, make it easyand just go with a VA company.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Hey there, christina, here Just a quick moment to
share that this episode isbrought to you by Jane.
We know how much heart you putinto building a practice you're
proud of, and that's why we'rehere To make things like
scheduling, charting andpayments run a little smoother.
If you'd like to take a peekhead to janeapp forward, slash
pricing, because we love a goodbonus don't forget to use the
code radiofrontdesk for aone-month grace period.
(10:30):
Okay, I'll keep it short andsweet.
Back to the episode.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
All right, let's talk about money.
Let's talk about money, honey.
So how do you set and feelconfident about what you pay
your first hire?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
We do it.
So it's so nice because mostindustries have a standard,
right.
So that's the thing Follow thestandard.
But I help people it's so hardto be a good boss there are
moments where this conflicts andpay them well to retain them
but also be profitable.
Like, how do you at thebeginning, right, I teach people
(11:08):
to keep 60%, which is the goingrate when somebody is fully
licensed, but the best way to dothis is to actually reverse
engineer.
So what do I want my profit tobe?
Because people don't do this.
And then the year ends andthey're like where's the money?
Where profit to be?
Because people don't do this?
And then the year ends andthey're like where's the money,
(11:28):
where's the where to go?
Right, yes, right.
So so does that make sense?
So I have a hundred percent.
Yeah, that's a client session,that's a pie.
I'm gonna give 60 away to thefully licensed person.
I have 40.
So if I want a 20 profit margin, you know we're not math people
, we're therapists, a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I'm not a math.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, it's okay, having a really good accountant
and just like, yeah, reverseengineering, it is so important.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think that's not necessarily the default thought
process, right, a lot of what Ihear people talking about is
like what do I have to paysomebody based on my location,
and I think that's an element tothink about for sure, but if
you're not also taking care ofwhat do I actually have?
And the other thing is, I'msure you have strong feelings
about this, but it's all relatedto what you charge for your
(12:05):
services.
Yeah, because that's how you'recreating the full 100.
Oh, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
If it's a bigger pie, more to share.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And then, what do you think about determining what
those fees are for the servicesand like charging what you're
worth?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Here's the thing.
I was trying not to get toopassionate here.
We are like brainwashed thatwe're bad.
I'm going to use the wordtherapist but, like as a
psychologist, we're badpractitioners if we want to make
money and I just feel likethat's so sad.
I wouldn't want to sit in frontof a therapist that isn't
living her best life but tellingme to do it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, and people buy thingsbased on value, not price.
(12:47):
There are teenagers in thisvery moment that are skipping
their lunch for the next iPhonebecause they value the iPhone.
So if you tie it to value, Imean we're changing lives right.
Like, truly, whether you're achiropractor or a therapist,
you're changing their livesInteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Okay, back into the mini you, the mini me.
Let's talk into the hiringprocess.
I'm fascinated about this.
I personally have done quite alot of hiring, and the other
side of it as well, so I reallywant to dive into this deep with
you because I think there's alot to learn.
So you have created anincredible resource for hiring.
We're calling it a playbook andwe're going to post that online
(13:22):
and people can get a link to itin the show notes.
But just to start off on thispart of our conversation, what
is your process for finding theright fit?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Oh my gosh, okay.
So I call it.
Find your hell, yeah, sorry,can I say hell on here Too late?
Yeah, you can.
Your hell, yeah, right.
When you're interviewing them,I want you to ask yourself would
I actually go out for lunchwith this person Because I'm
talking about it's not corporate, like I'm talking about this as
a therapist that will dotherapy under your brand, right,
right.
And then the next question islike would I go for therapy?
(13:51):
Would I actually book anappointment with them?
And if it's a no, I bet youtheir conversion rate's going to
be low and their retentionrate's going to be low, and I'm
not sure that's a good move.
You should leave thatconversation being impressed,
like that's a high bar, like I'mimpressed.
I hope they take my job offer.
Yeah, I call it a work marriage.
(14:13):
It truly is.
So there should be six steps tomarry you because you're pretty
lovely.
I was wasting so much time onzoom.
Within two minutes I knew theyweren't a good fit and then it
was awkward.
Do I get off of Zoom?
Do I go through all theinterview questions?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I love this so much and I have to coach people who
hire with me, because when I hitone of the non-negotiables,
it's just done for me and thisis why it's because if you sit
through the pain when you knowit's- not right it's a waste of
time during the hiring processand nine times out of 10, you
end up having to part ways withthem anyway.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yes yes.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So you're doing everyone a favor by having those
hard knee jerk reactions earlyon.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yes, I love the saying slow to hire, fast to
fire, slow to hire, step one.
Screen them on the phone.
There's three steps before theyget Zoom with you Because your
time is so valuable.
Yeah, so I would get your adminbecause you hired the admin
right and they're going to callthem because there was things
that were non-negotiables and wewould ask them on the call do
(15:12):
you work evenings and weekends?
Do you live close to the office?
Because there's snow where Ilive and if you live far, you're
not going to stay.
I noticed, noticed that.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Oh, got it, yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, are you open to doing hybrid?
All your non negotiables?
And then there's more.
Step two is we actually givethem a personality test.
The big five, a personalitytest?
Yes, and this is legal, don'tworry, I checked.
Oh, tell me more about that.
So I don't know if you've heardof this.
At least the psychologistlistening would.
Have you ever heard of the bigfive?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I have heard of them.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yes, yeah, so it spells ocean.
So openness, okay,conscientiousness, extroversion,
agreeableness and neuroticismand the two big things you want
to pay attention to is low inneuroticism, obviously.
But it's good because on theactual questionnaire they don't
call it neuroticism becausenaturally everyone's going to be
like, nope you know that's notme.
They call it natural reactions.
(16:03):
So I would only hire peoplethat was low in neuroticism.
And the reason is is when Ihired somebody that was high,
highly anxious, highly irritable, they just got overwhelmed.
They couldn't see the amount ofclients.
It was just not a good fit.
Yeah, and obviously also ifyou're hiring an admin, it needs
(16:26):
to be like high inconscientiousness and then they
meet you on Zoom.
So I would have criteria thatthey pass the non-negotiables.
There's a personality fit, likewe have this avatar, if you
will, that we know works for ourculture.
Then they get an hour.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We have a similar process when we're hiring for
our team and instead of thepersonality test, we give them
like a skill test.
But I will say that part ofwhat we're assessing in that
process is how they respond todifferent parts of it that are
difficult.
Like, we give them feedback andhow do they respond to that
feedback?
And I'm pretty sure that if youwere there watching, you'd be
like oh yeah, feedback.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
and I'm pretty sure that if you were there watching,
you'd be like oh yeah, this islike a test for neuroticism.
Okay, like, how do you?
How do you?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
respond to someone telling you that it wasn't quite
right and you have to redo it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so we, I also
suggest, after the interview,give them a working interview.
That's what you're doing, right?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
oh yeah, look at that get them to do it, I know right
.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
So them a working interview.
I feel like it's easy forpeople to tell you how great
they are.
Let them show you how greatthey are or not so great.
And then number five is theColby.
Have you heard of the Colby?
I have not.
Okay, it's called sometimes astrength assessment.
It's basically how you getthings done, how you work Okay.
Here's why I found it.
(17:40):
I help people with grouppractices.
So you're hiring for a group.
You want a therapist that's nottoo entrepreneurial, because
they won't stay, oh, interesting.
So it tests for that and italso tests for that.
They like systems.
So you're creating all thesesystems.
If they hate systems, they alsowon't stay.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So we give them the Colby, and then references yeah,
fascinating.
They're not too entrepreneurial.
I've talked to many peoplewho've gone and started their
own businesses.
And that's where it starts.
They're working for someoneelse and then they say I want to
do this my way, and then theyleave.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
And so what does that actually mean?
Not too entrepreneurial, youknow.
And then the Colby actuallydoes measure like risk-taking,
loyalty change, like maybe youdon't want somebody that is
going to get bored easy.
Yeah, did we go through all the?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
steps.
Yes, that's all six.
All six, okay, amazing.
So let's just jump backwardsabout like I just jump backwards
about like I don't want to missa job description.
What are your thoughts onputting something online to
attract applicants?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
A love letter.
It is a love letter.
Your job description should bea love letter that stands out
from the crowd.
You have to remember it's kindof like dating.
Okay, I met my husband onlinebefore scrolling, but when
they're scrolling, everyone kindof it's the same stuff.
I'm sure it's been like aminute, but same with like.
Indeed they're scrollingthrough.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
They all look the same.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
But what if, at the top, you actually shared with
them what you were going to givethem, as opposed to what
everyone else is doing is likehere's all the requirements,
right, Start with.
Like here's the atmosphere, theenvironment we're going to
create your dream job.
Hook them in with his loveletter and you'll get way more
applicants yeah, especially inthis industry and these types of
(19:18):
businesses.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, really stand out.
Yes, so if you're not gettingapplicants, what do you think is
wrong?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
now I would post the job for free for one week and
then sponsor it.
There's a way that you cansponsor.
Of course it's like advertising, but it takes patience, which
entrepreneurs aren't good at, somy members will be like it's
been two that you can sponsor.
Of course it's like advertising, but it takes patience, which
entrepreneurs aren't good at, somy members will be like it's
been two days.
You know like give it a minute,they will come, yeah,
especially if you have the loveletter.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, sometimes we, even with all this what I'm
saying, we have high volume comein when we post jobs Like even
with that.
Yeah and yeah, you just also,you have to give the people who
you're looking for time to findit Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yes, so know that I specifically sponsored $20 a day
.
Yeah, yeah, and then just makesure you have an eye on it.
But it is worth it, cause Iknow people are thinking, oh my
gosh, that's like you know ahundred and I I'm really bad
with math yeah, $140.
Yeah, good, $140.
And that's a week, nicole, whatdo you think?
But if you do the math, like,how much are they going to bring
in?
It makes sense to bring them infaster.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, interesting.
Okay, let's talk aboutevaluation of all of it, but
let's start with the writtenpart, I think, for me.
I'm trained as a writer andhave been a writer like my whole
life, so this part of it is issomething that I can get really
nitpicky about and spend a lotof time on.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I think the bar needs to be really high because
there's so many people right.
So if there's like things likespelling errors and also like
how they communicate to you, sohere's, here's one thing we will
be very clear about the process.
If they can't get the processright, we will not even move
them onto the screening.
So what I mean is, if we'relike, okay, so first send the
(21:02):
cover letter, if they do notsend the cover letter, I love
that so much.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I feel like you want to make it hard, because you're
worth it.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Is there any other detail of the written?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, I think the thoughtfulness that they've done
their research, and also youcan feel the kind and caring
piece you kind of show up.
Even though you're not hiring awriter, you can just tell that
they really do want this job.
This is a love letter back toyou, totally.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I love thinking about it that way.
Yes, okay, but you were talkingabout having, hell, yeah, hires
.
Is that what you said?
Tell me some more things thatyou do to get to that moment,
honestly, if you are wavering,it's a no.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
People will bring it to coaching like I don't know,
and I'm like then it's got to bea no.
Back to dating.
There's so much correlationbetween that.
If you're talking to yourfriend like I don't know, then
it's got to be a no, don't talkyourself into it.
And I just found that theyellow flags ended up being red
flags later.
It should be easy.
This should be like the easypart.
If there's a little bit offlags showing up, then no, what
(22:07):
are your flags?
Oh gosh, it could be, honestly,of things that you're like.
I feel like that was a B answer,not an A.
You know, also for myparticular practices,
specifically therapists, but Ithink everyone listening, a lot
of us are afraid that they willcome work in our practice and
(22:28):
then leave with the clients.
Do you know what I mean?
So even that, like how theythat's one of the interview
questions.
You just get a sense like arethey just coming to, like learn
all the things and thenliterally replicate it, because
that is an industry that theycould do, that, oh yeah, so you
get that sense.
But I think too, a hell yeah issomebody.
It's about energy, it's about,like resonance.
That again, it's back to thelunch, like, wow, do you like
(22:51):
them?
That is important.
You were building this to loveyour life and to go every day
and like the people, like you'rethe boss yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
One of my red flags is, uh like negativity.
That's really bad.
If that shows up in theinterview, very sensitive to it.
So yeah like people can come upand they can have like this
really very subtle, like spininto negativity.
And I.
That's one of the ones whereI'm like a hard knee jerk.
(23:21):
Sorry, sorry, everyone.
This is a no because it almostalways turns into something and
it doesn't always turn intosomebody who's highly negative
in their role, but it usuallyturns into something that is
unmanageable or it requires alot of managing, so if you catch
that early you can avoid havingto deal with it later.
(23:41):
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Describe the person to me thatmakes the final cut to you.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It has to be an A player.
Like what is an A player?
Yeah, so for a therapist likewe'll talk about therapists
specifically, I think thatnumber one, like you give them
six hoops, like all the thingsthat, literally it's A plus, a
plus.
And even the personality testthere's scores kind of like.
They range in neuroticism, forexample, you know.
So, conscientiousness, I wouldonly hire people that were above
(24:10):
a 90.
So it technically was an A plus, you know, for admin.
But for me it's that you givethem a process, they follow it
and they pass with flying colors, and there's the chemistry, the
resonance, so there's the hardskills and the soft skills, and
then it's going to be theperfect marriage.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
How do you know when?
Maybe you didn't do the job youwere trying to do when you were
hiring and you're starting tofeel a problem and you're
starting to feel like it's notgoing to work ask yourself is it
a people problem, is it asystems problem or is it a
leader problem?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
you see, there's something called the attribution
bias.
When we make a mistake, we tellourselves oh, I was in a rush
or I didn't sleep, or I I wasoverwhelmed.
When somebody else makes amistake, we blame their
character.
So when it's me, it'scircumstance, when it's them,
it's character.
So we tend to blame people asbosses.
Right, like, oh my gosh, really, I really trained them, but did
you?
(25:05):
Most of the time it's usually asystems problem.
Were they trained?
Well, it, was this actuallywritten down right?
So I would first ask myselfthat written down Right?
So I would first ask myselfthat.
And then, if it's not a themproblem, great, we'll then fix
the system.
But if it is a them problem,then use the F word Feedback.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Give amazing feedback , don't swear, but people don't
give feedback?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
They really don't, and like feedback is everything.
How are they supposed to growif you're not actually telling
them?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Okay, so let's talk about feedback for a minute,
because I also.
It's not easy to give feedbackfirst of all, and the other
thing is that sometimes it's notclear to the other person that
you're giving them the feedback.
So, like you have to actuallysignal to people that you're
giving them feedback, sometimesA hundred percent and thanks for
(25:55):
pointing that out.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
It is hard giving feedback.
It really is, and I tend to bea people pleaser too, so it's
like so hard because you want tobe a good boss and you don't
want to upset them, or you know,I love just sharing, like, hey,
I just wanted to point out likehere's the process, because the
other thing is there's probablya process or there should be a
process, so it's back to thesystems again, and then you can
lean on the systems and not theperson, and there's less
(26:19):
defensiveness.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And the systems can also tie back to the bigger
vision for the business and theclinic.
So none of it is actuallypersonal and there are ways to
indicate that to people.
So when those harder momentscome, it doesn't feel personal.
You got it, yeah.
What are your tricks forkeeping these unicorns that you
hire?
How do you keep?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
them happy, retaining them?
Yeah, I think number one isthis is, of course, particularly
for clinics is check-ins, notonce a year but every quarter
check-ins and we actually givethem a questionnaire where we
get them to rate the front desk,because they won't always tell
you but if you say hey, 0 to 10,how's the admin doing and they
(27:06):
might give it an A.
Then that's a conversation, howto rate you as a supervisor,
because a lot of us willsupervise and I would actually
do it.
I would do two a year, year,but my clinic manager would do
two a year, because not everyonewants to stare their boss at
the face, in the face who'spaying their mortgage, and say
like actually you're like aseven you know, what I mean, but
they might say it if you're notthere and they feel more
(27:26):
supported.
Yeah, um, so doing thatfrequently and I really like the
scales, because sometimes it'seasier to put an eight and have
the conversation more deep inperson rather than like just
saying it.
It feels scary sometimes, forsure, yeah, so frequent
check-ins to start, for sure.
And then just culture.
I did a keynote talk for Janeyesterday and there's an amazing
(27:46):
book called the culture code byDaniel Coyle and I think it's
the best book out there and hetalks about that.
Culture is really aboutbelonging and connection and
that really comes from theleader showing up authentically
and vulnerable.
And then there's really nohierarchy and we're just humans.
Yeah, neither of us are perfectbut we're doing our best.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, another way I think I approach this is that.
Back to the thing I was sayingearlier about I like to do hard
things.
I pick people who and I tellthem very early I want to do
hard things with you and Ipicked you so let's go do hard
things so if we?
ever get to a moment where Ineed to say something isn't
working, it can very easily belinked back to the goal that we
agreed on.
So, yeah, I think there's justways to really make it about the
(28:29):
thing you're trying to achievetogether.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, yeah, and also one of my favorite things is
like showing up curious ratherthan blaming right away, knowing
the attribution bias.
That's such a great tip.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Oh my gosh, that's such a great tip for the like
the leader.
Yes, exactly, it helps keep youout of the mindset of it's the
other person's fault You're likeactually what happened here?
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And they're less defensive because you're just
curious or sometimes confused,confusing, curious story.
I'm just a bit confused here.
You know this happened and thenthey're not going to get there.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
You're allowing them to talk, they're not going to
get defensive and then it getsresolved way faster.
Yeah, Nicole, thank you so muchfor being here today.
We will link in the show notesyour playbook and we'll also
link to the book that youmentioned.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Cause I think that's a great podcast.
If they're interested, oh,please tell us the business
savvy therapist.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Oh wow, Amazing.
Where can they find thisSpotify or Apple?
Awesome yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, thanks, nicole.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Thanks for tuning in to Radio Front Desk.
If you found this episodehelpful, it would mean so much
to me if you gave it a ratingand leave a review letting me
know what you think.
And if you're a fan, you cansubscribe to Radio Front Desk on
Apple Music, spotify andwherever you get your podcasts.
please systemize before you hire, otherwise
you're not a CEO, you're a CQAchief question answer.
So get everything out of yourhead.
Get everything out of your head, put it in a Google Drive and
then you can train people, trainthem well, and they won't come
to you.
That's step one.
Step two is how to build youractual dream team.
They're looking for you rightnow.
It's just about posting, andyou haven't posted that job
(00:21):
posting.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to Radio Front Desk by JNAP.
I'm your host, denzel Ford.
What's stopping you from makingyour first hire?
Is it fear, overwhelm, or areyou just not sure where to start
?
Today's guest, nicole McCants,knows exactly how that feels.
When Nicole made her first hire, she was nowhere near what
(00:48):
she'd call ready, but she did itanyway, and it's a good thing
she did.
Over the next five years, shebuilt a seven-figure practice,
growing from one to 55therapists.
Now she's teaching others howto do the same.
Nicole has a strategy strategyand it works.
In this episode, she'll breakdown why systemizing before you
(01:10):
hire is a game changer.
She explains how to actuallybuild your dream team and how to
attract your perfect candidatewith a great job post.
Grab a coffee, turn up thevolume and let's get started.
Welcome, nicole.
I'm so glad to talk to youtoday.
I'm so happy to be here.
Turn up the volume and let'sget started.
Welcome, nicole, I'm so glad totalk to you today.
(01:31):
I'm so happy to be here.
We're here at Jane's live eventin the supposedly sunny Palm
Springs but it is not sunnytoday.
It's very windy, stormy, alittle rain on the window.
Yeah, I didn't know it rainedin the desert.
I didn't know it rained in thedesert in May.
But anyway, your story is liketruly incredible.
You have hired large number oftherapists.
Is it really 55 therapists?
(01:51):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, okay, 24 rooms, 7,000 square feet.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Wow, okay.
So it's just an amazingaccomplishment.
It's such a like inspirationfor so many people out there
starting their own businesses.
What really caught my attentionwas when you made your first
hire.
You say that you didn't reallyfeel ready to do that.
You had twins.
You were feeling maxed out andI'm I'm understanding that.
You say do it anyway and do itscared.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, can you say a little bit about that?
So one of my mantras to live byis do it scared.
Oh my gosh, like what would yoube doing in life if every day
you just knew to do it scared?
Because the thing about fear,there's this instinct to stop,
to freeze, to not do.
But what if you told yourself,like the 1%, actually do it
scared.
And so the twins were very,very little, but for me I was
(02:39):
just a baby boss and what I toldmyself is what if I hire baby
therapists?
They felt less intimidating.
What?
By baby therapist I meansomebody that's green in their
career.
I'm a baby boss, you're a babytherapist and we can grow
together.
So that really helped me do itscared, but it felt like a small
step in a way.
A fully licensed person feltmore scary interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I have this philosophy in life.
I probably say it too manytimes, but I'm going to say it
again.
I want to do things that feeltoo hard, and it almost feels
like you're doing that.
Like this feels too hard but,there's like steps that you can
do along the way to get to thebigger vision.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so funny.
When I became pregnant, Iremember thinking, oh my God,
this is going to be hard.
Like how do you even do thatLike breastfeed at the same time
, like all those things right.
But then I remember tellingmyself, wait, I can do hard.
Looking back at all the thingsthat happened in my life like,
wait a minute, no, I can do hard.
What an amazing mantra to liveby.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So what would you say to someone who's sitting in
that hesitation right now?
Well, I think the first thingis really connecting with what
you want, like, what is yourgoal?
For me, I wanted to be homemore.
I was so sick of getting homeevery night at 7 PM and my kids
looking out the window andmissing their mama.
So my why was just bigger thanmy fear.
So I think also if, honestly, ifyou were to tell me that I
would have had 55 therapists, Iwould have said there's no way I
would do that.
Who?
You know what I mean?
That just seems like a wholelot.
So it's just one step, guyslistening like what would be
(04:12):
just the first step?
That's way less scary.
And then sometimes I don't knowyour belief, but I also believe
that, like me, doing that wasactually bigger than me, so I
felt like it was pulling me.
Does that make sense?
Like, after I took the firststep, the next step was evident.
Yeah, it's kind of like drivingin the dark and all you can see
(04:34):
is 30 feet in front of you.
But just trust that if you keepgoing, you'll just see the next
30 feet.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I mean what you're saying is really resonating with
me, because I don't do anythingreally that I'm aware of, where
I actually know where I'm goingwhen I set out to do it.
Does anyone really, I mean likeyou, kind of just have to, like
, take what you know in themoment and take steps towards it
and trust and I feel, likethat's trust, right, yeah, so
yeah, I'm loving this so far andwaiting to feel like you're
(05:04):
ready.
Could also just feel likeyou're waiting forever.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Oh my God.
So who has ever woken up andsaid to do the do like nobody.
You know that day like neverhappens ever.
And actually, funny enough, atlunch today someone had said and
I love this so powerful readyis always in hindsight to look
back and be like okay, I wasready, it's.
You don't ever, it doesn't everjust show up.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
There's also like some deeper conversation we can
get into about like being readyis actually not being ready, you
just got to do it.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You just got to go.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, we teach that as therapists behavior
activation it's called.
So if someone's depressed,rather than waiting to feel like
I want to get out of bed, youhave to like get out of bed, and
then you'll feel like you wantto get out of bed.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
It's the same with exercise Just get into the
shower.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Nobody wants to actually exercise.
Yes, just put your shoes on.
Get in the car Exactly Once youget there, you're good.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
So part of your wisdom that we've already tapped
into in like two minutes ofconversation is you've built an
amazing five step method forscaling a clinic and we're going
to zoom into one segment ofthat.
We're going to talk a lot abouthiring today, but just to get
us started and understand, likethe bigger scope of how you
think and your method, could youjust give us a quick rundown on
(06:17):
your Sure, and here's the thingI did so many mistakes, like 55
therapists, probably for 55,000mistakes, so I really wanted to
give somebody five steps.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
so just a high overview.
First, you want to systemize?
Please systemize before youhire, otherwise you're not a CEO
, you're a CQA chief questionanswer because they're always
coming to you.
So if you systemize, build thecontainer before you fill it.
And you mean systemize yourbusiness, yes, put everything
into SOPs.
Looms basically a manual likehow we do things here.
(06:48):
Here are all of our procedures.
So get everything out of yourhead.
Get everything out of your head, put it in a Google Drive and
then you can train people, trainthem well, and they won't come
to you.
That's step one.
Step two is how to build youractual dream team.
They're looking for you.
Right now it's just aboutposting and you haven't posted
that job posting.
And then three I love digitalmarketing because it works while
(07:09):
you sleep.
So attracting clients.
That's what I did to grow withdigital marketing.
And then this is a piece thattherapists forget they stop at
marketing.
They're so hungry for marketing, so much.
But here's the thing.
Then it's converting withconsult calls which is why I
love Jane, because they help somuch with that, and then
retaining with follow ups.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So that's one to five , five steps.
We've also featured you inFront Desk Magazine and in that
article you shared the idea thathiring someone who's a flavor
of you.
Yes, I have so much to say toyou on this, so many questions
to ask, but let's just startwith.
How do you balance findingsomeone who reflects your style
plus bringing in a freshperspective?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yes, oh my gosh, I call it.
Have your first hire, yourfirst hire.
Okay, you can be varied afterthat.
Be your mini me, your mini me.
And here's why I was 27 yearsold, I fell in love and I moved
to Russia.
That's the short version.
Okay, I left my whole practicefor love and I gave it to a
(08:10):
therapist, who is nothing likeme and I don't know what I was
thinking.
So, as you can tell, I'm abigger personality.
I'm very direct and here's thething my clients were used to
that experience, just when yougo to a pizza hut I'm trying to
think American and Canadian herefor restaurants, but like a
pizza hut, it's a certain vibe.
They expect the vibe no matterwhere they go.
They walked in and it was atotally different vibe.
She was more quiet, not direct.
(08:31):
None of them stayed, not one,not one.
And then I fell out of love.
I moved back six months laterand they all came back to me.
So I learned the hard way hireyour mini me, give them a
consistent experience, and thenit's easier to move your clients
over, because I help peoplegrow into group practices and
then you have more time toactually work on the business
(08:53):
and not in it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, I want to get more into how you identify your
mini me.
But first let's dig into alittle bit more of who the hire
should be in your clinic.
So should your first hire be apractitioner or an admin?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
This is a hard one because therapists don't want to
spend money on admin right awaybecause they're not revenue
generating.
But I want you to think of itas what is your time worth?
Are you wasting your time doing$20 tasks?
So I'll tell you I have a sixmonth business coaching program.
Those who hire an admin earlyon in my program grow twice as
fast.
Why?
Because they've offloaded theminutiae, they've offloaded the
(09:35):
overwhelm.
So, if you can, it would be anadmin, and it doesn't have to be
full time.
I think a lot of people thefact that, oh gosh, employee W-2
is what they call it in theStates.
Right, that's overwhelming.
I'm not going to do anything,but what if it was a VA?
What if it was just someone whocould support you for five
hours a week?
And you mean virtual assistant?
(09:55):
Yes, virtual assistant, I think, eventually, front desk you
definitely want somebody at thefront desk creating an
experience and greeting people,and it be a human.
But I think, 100%, make it easyand just go with a VA company.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Hey there, christina, here Just a quick moment to
share that this episode isbrought to you by Jane.
We know how much heart you putinto building a practice you're
proud of, and that's why we'rehere To make things like
scheduling, charting andpayments run a little smoother.
If you'd like to take a peekhead to janeapp forward, slash
pricing, because we love a goodbonus don't forget to use the
code radiofrontdesk for aone-month grace period.
(10:30):
Okay, I'll keep it short andsweet.
Back to the episode.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
All right, let's talk about money.
Let's talk about money, honey.
So how do you set and feelconfident about what you pay
your first hire?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
We do it.
So it's so nice because mostindustries have a standard,
right.
So that's the thing Follow thestandard.
But I help people it's so hardto be a good boss there are
moments where this conflicts andpay them well to retain them
but also be profitable.
Like, how do you at thebeginning, right, I teach people
(11:08):
to keep 60%, which is the goingrate when somebody is fully
licensed, but the best way to dothis is to actually reverse
engineer.
So what do I want my profit tobe?
Because people don't do this.
And then the year ends andthey're like where's the money?
Where profit to be?
Because people don't do this?
And then the year ends andthey're like where's the money,
(11:28):
where's the where to go?
Right, yes, right.
So so does that make sense?
So I have a hundred percent.
Yeah, that's a client session,that's a pie.
I'm gonna give 60 away to thefully licensed person.
I have 40.
So if I want a 20 profit margin, you know we're not math people
, we're therapists, a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I'm not a math.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, it's okay, having a really good accountant
and just like, yeah, reverseengineering, it is so important.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I think that's not necessarily the default thought
process, right, a lot of what Ihear people talking about is
like what do I have to paysomebody based on my location,
and I think that's an element tothink about for sure, but if
you're not also taking care ofwhat do I actually have?
And the other thing is, I'msure you have strong feelings
about this, but it's all relatedto what you charge for your
(12:05):
services.
Yeah, because that's how you'recreating the full 100.
Oh, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
If it's a bigger pie, more to share.
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And then, what do you think about determining what
those fees are for the servicesand like charging what you're
worth?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Here's the thing.
I was trying not to get toopassionate here.
We are like brainwashed thatwe're bad.
I'm going to use the wordtherapist but, like as a
psychologist, we're badpractitioners if we want to make
money and I just feel likethat's so sad.
I wouldn't want to sit in frontof a therapist that isn't
living her best life but tellingme to do it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, and people buy thingsbased on value, not price.
(12:47):
There are teenagers in thisvery moment that are skipping
their lunch for the next iPhonebecause they value the iPhone.
So if you tie it to value, Imean we're changing lives right.
Like, truly, whether you're achiropractor or a therapist,
you're changing their livesInteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Okay, back into the mini you, the mini me.
Let's talk into the hiringprocess.
I'm fascinated about this.
I personally have done quite alot of hiring, and the other
side of it as well, so I reallywant to dive into this deep with
you because I think there's alot to learn.
So you have created anincredible resource for hiring.
We're calling it a playbook andwe're going to post that online
(13:22):
and people can get a link to itin the show notes.
But just to start off on thispart of our conversation, what
is your process for finding theright fit?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Oh my gosh, okay.
So I call it.
Find your hell, yeah, sorry,can I say hell on here Too late?
Yeah, you can.
Your hell, yeah, right.
When you're interviewing them,I want you to ask yourself would
I actually go out for lunchwith this person Because I'm
talking about it's not corporate, like I'm talking about this as
a therapist that will dotherapy under your brand, right,
right.
And then the next question islike would I go for therapy?
(13:51):
Would I actually book anappointment with them?
And if it's a no, I bet youtheir conversion rate's going to
be low and their retentionrate's going to be low, and I'm
not sure that's a good move.
You should leave thatconversation being impressed,
like that's a high bar, like I'mimpressed.
I hope they take my job offer.
Yeah, I call it a work marriage.
(14:13):
It truly is.
So there should be six steps tomarry you because you're pretty
lovely.
I was wasting so much time onzoom.
Within two minutes I knew theyweren't a good fit and then it
was awkward.
Do I get off of Zoom?
Do I go through all theinterview questions?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I love this so much and I have to coach people who
hire with me, because when I hitone of the non-negotiables,
it's just done for me and thisis why it's because if you sit
through the pain when you knowit's- not right it's a waste of
time during the hiring processand nine times out of 10, you
end up having to part ways withthem anyway.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yes yes.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So you're doing everyone a favor by having those
hard knee jerk reactions earlyon.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yes, I love the saying slow to hire, fast to
fire, slow to hire, step one.
Screen them on the phone.
There's three steps before theyget Zoom with you Because your
time is so valuable.
Yeah, so I would get your adminbecause you hired the admin
right and they're going to callthem because there was things
that were non-negotiables and wewould ask them on the call do
(15:12):
you work evenings and weekends?
Do you live close to the office?
Because there's snow where Ilive and if you live far, you're
not going to stay.
I noticed, noticed that.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Oh, got it, yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, are you open to doing hybrid?
All your non negotiables?
And then there's more.
Step two is we actually givethem a personality test.
The big five, a personalitytest?
Yes, and this is legal, don'tworry, I checked.
Oh, tell me more about that.
So I don't know if you've heardof this.
At least the psychologistlistening would.
Have you ever heard of the bigfive?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I have heard of them.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yes, yeah, so it spells ocean.
So openness, okay,conscientiousness, extroversion,
agreeableness and neuroticismand the two big things you want
to pay attention to is low inneuroticism, obviously.
But it's good because on theactual questionnaire they don't
call it neuroticism becausenaturally everyone's going to be
like, nope you know that's notme.
They call it natural reactions.
(16:03):
So I would only hire peoplethat was low in neuroticism.
And the reason is is when Ihired somebody that was high,
highly anxious, highly irritable, they just got overwhelmed.
They couldn't see the amount ofclients.
It was just not a good fit.
Yeah, and obviously also ifyou're hiring an admin, it needs
(16:26):
to be like high inconscientiousness and then they
meet you on Zoom.
So I would have criteria thatthey pass the non-negotiables.
There's a personality fit, likewe have this avatar, if you
will, that we know works for ourculture.
Then they get an hour.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We have a similar process when we're hiring for
our team and instead of thepersonality test, we give them
like a skill test.
But I will say that part ofwhat we're assessing in that
process is how they respond todifferent parts of it that are
difficult.
Like, we give them feedback andhow do they respond to that
feedback?
And I'm pretty sure that if youwere there watching, you'd be
like oh yeah, feedback.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
and I'm pretty sure that if you were there watching,
you'd be like oh yeah, this islike a test for neuroticism.
Okay, like, how do you?
How do you?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
respond to someone telling you that it wasn't quite
right and you have to redo it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so we, I also
suggest, after the interview,give them a working interview.
That's what you're doing, right?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
oh yeah, look at that get them to do it, I know right
.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
So them a working interview.
I feel like it's easy forpeople to tell you how great
they are.
Let them show you how greatthey are or not so great.
And then number five is theColby.
Have you heard of the Colby?
I have not.
Okay, it's called sometimes astrength assessment.
It's basically how you getthings done, how you work Okay.
Here's why I found it.
(17:40):
I help people with grouppractices.
So you're hiring for a group.
You want a therapist that's nottoo entrepreneurial, because
they won't stay, oh, interesting.
So it tests for that and italso tests for that.
They like systems.
So you're creating all thesesystems.
If they hate systems, they alsowon't stay.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So we give them the Colby, and then references yeah,
fascinating.
They're not too entrepreneurial.
I've talked to many peoplewho've gone and started their
own businesses.
And that's where it starts.
They're working for someoneelse and then they say I want to
do this my way, and then theyleave.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
And so what does that actually mean?
Not too entrepreneurial, youknow.
And then the Colby actuallydoes measure like risk-taking,
loyalty change, like maybe youdon't want somebody that is
going to get bored easy.
Yeah, did we go through all the?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
steps.
Yes, that's all six.
All six, okay, amazing.
So let's just jump backwardsabout like I just jump backwards
about like I don't want to missa job description.
What are your thoughts onputting something online to
attract applicants?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
A love letter.
It is a love letter.
Your job description should bea love letter that stands out
from the crowd.
You have to remember it's kindof like dating.
Okay, I met my husband onlinebefore scrolling, but when
they're scrolling, everyone kindof it's the same stuff.
I'm sure it's been like aminute, but same with like.
Indeed they're scrollingthrough.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
They all look the same.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
But what if, at the top, you actually shared with
them what you were going to givethem, as opposed to what
everyone else is doing is likehere's all the requirements,
right, Start with.
Like here's the atmosphere, theenvironment we're going to
create your dream job.
Hook them in with his loveletter and you'll get way more
applicants yeah, especially inthis industry and these types of
(19:18):
businesses.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, really stand out.
Yes, so if you're not gettingapplicants, what do you think is
wrong?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
now I would post the job for free for one week and
then sponsor it.
There's a way that you cansponsor.
Of course it's like advertising, but it takes patience, which
entrepreneurs aren't good at, somy members will be like it's
been two that you can sponsor.
Of course it's like advertising, but it takes patience, which
entrepreneurs aren't good at, somy members will be like it's
been two days.
You know like give it a minute,they will come, yeah,
especially if you have the loveletter.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, sometimes we, even with all this what I'm
saying, we have high volume comein when we post jobs Like even
with that.
Yeah and yeah, you just also,you have to give the people who
you're looking for time to findit Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yes, so know that I specifically sponsored $20 a day
.
Yeah, yeah, and then just makesure you have an eye on it.
But it is worth it, cause Iknow people are thinking, oh my
gosh, that's like you know ahundred and I I'm really bad
with math yeah, $140.
Yeah, good, $140.
And that's a week, nicole, whatdo you think?
But if you do the math, like,how much are they going to bring
in?
It makes sense to bring them infaster.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, interesting.
Okay, let's talk aboutevaluation of all of it, but
let's start with the writtenpart, I think, for me.
I'm trained as a writer andhave been a writer like my whole
life, so this part of it is issomething that I can get really
nitpicky about and spend a lotof time on.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I think the bar needs to be really high because
there's so many people right.
So if there's like things likespelling errors and also like
how they communicate to you, sohere's, here's one thing we will
be very clear about the process.
If they can't get the processright, we will not even move
them onto the screening.
So what I mean is, if we'relike, okay, so first send the
(21:02):
cover letter, if they do notsend the cover letter, I love
that so much.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I feel like you want to make it hard, because you're
worth it.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Is there any other detail of the written?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, I think the thoughtfulness that they've done
their research, and also youcan feel the kind and caring
piece you kind of show up.
Even though you're not hiring awriter, you can just tell that
they really do want this job.
This is a love letter back toyou, totally.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I love thinking about it that way.
Yes, okay, but you were talkingabout having, hell, yeah, hires
.
Is that what you said?
Tell me some more things thatyou do to get to that moment,
honestly, if you are wavering,it's a no.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
People will bring it to coaching like I don't know,
and I'm like then it's got to bea no.
Back to dating.
There's so much correlationbetween that.
If you're talking to yourfriend like I don't know, then
it's got to be a no, don't talkyourself into it.
And I just found that theyellow flags ended up being red
flags later.
It should be easy.
This should be like the easypart.
If there's a little bit offlags showing up, then no, what
(22:07):
are your flags?
Oh gosh, it could be, honestly,of things that you're like.
I feel like that was a B answer,not an A.
You know, also for myparticular practices,
specifically therapists, but Ithink everyone listening, a lot
of us are afraid that they willcome work in our practice and
(22:28):
then leave with the clients.
Do you know what I mean?
So even that, like how theythat's one of the interview
questions.
You just get a sense like arethey just coming to, like learn
all the things and thenliterally replicate it, because
that is an industry that theycould do, that, oh yeah, so you
get that sense.
But I think too, a hell yeah issomebody.
It's about energy, it's about,like resonance.
That again, it's back to thelunch, like, wow, do you like
(22:51):
them?
That is important.
You were building this to loveyour life and to go every day
and like the people, like you'rethe boss yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
One of my red flags is, uh like negativity.
That's really bad.
If that shows up in theinterview, very sensitive to it.
So yeah like people can come upand they can have like this
really very subtle, like spininto negativity.
And I.
That's one of the ones whereI'm like a hard knee jerk.
(23:21):
Sorry, sorry, everyone.
This is a no because it almostalways turns into something and
it doesn't always turn intosomebody who's highly negative
in their role, but it usuallyturns into something that is
unmanageable or it requires alot of managing, so if you catch
that early you can avoid havingto deal with it later.
(23:41):
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Describe the person to me thatmakes the final cut to you.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It has to be an A player.
Like what is an A player?
Yeah, so for a therapist likewe'll talk about therapists
specifically, I think thatnumber one, like you give them
six hoops, like all the thingsthat, literally it's A plus, a
plus.
And even the personality testthere's scores kind of like.
They range in neuroticism, forexample, you know.
So, conscientiousness, I wouldonly hire people that were above
(24:10):
a 90.
So it technically was an A plus, you know, for admin.
But for me it's that you givethem a process, they follow it
and they pass with flying colors, and there's the chemistry, the
resonance, so there's the hardskills and the soft skills, and
then it's going to be theperfect marriage.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
How do you know when?
Maybe you didn't do the job youwere trying to do when you were
hiring and you're starting tofeel a problem and you're
starting to feel like it's notgoing to work ask yourself is it
a people problem, is it asystems problem or is it a
leader problem?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
you see, there's something called the attribution
bias.
When we make a mistake, we tellourselves oh, I was in a rush
or I didn't sleep, or I I wasoverwhelmed.
When somebody else makes amistake, we blame their
character.
So when it's me, it'scircumstance, when it's them,
it's character.
So we tend to blame people asbosses.
Right, like, oh my gosh, really, I really trained them, but did
you?
(25:05):
Most of the time it's usually asystems problem.
Were they trained?
Well, it, was this actuallywritten down right?
So I would first ask myselfthat written down Right?
So I would first ask myselfthat.
And then, if it's not a themproblem, great, we'll then fix
the system.
But if it is a them problem,then use the F word Feedback.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Give amazing feedback , don't swear, but people don't
give feedback?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
They really don't, and like feedback is everything.
How are they supposed to growif you're not actually telling
them?
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Okay, so let's talk about feedback for a minute,
because I also.
It's not easy to give feedbackfirst of all, and the other
thing is that sometimes it's notclear to the other person that
you're giving them the feedback.
So, like you have to actuallysignal to people that you're
giving them feedback, sometimesA hundred percent and thanks for
(25:55):
pointing that out.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
It is hard giving feedback.
It really is, and I tend to bea people pleaser too, so it's
like so hard because you want tobe a good boss and you don't
want to upset them, or you know,I love just sharing, like, hey,
I just wanted to point out likehere's the process, because the
other thing is there's probablya process or there should be a
process, so it's back to thesystems again, and then you can
lean on the systems and not theperson, and there's less
(26:19):
defensiveness.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And the systems can also tie back to the bigger
vision for the business and theclinic.
So none of it is actuallypersonal and there are ways to
indicate that to people.
So when those harder momentscome, it doesn't feel personal.
You got it, yeah.
What are your tricks forkeeping these unicorns that you
hire?
How do you keep?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
them happy, retaining them?
Yeah, I think number one isthis is, of course, particularly
for clinics is check-ins, notonce a year but every quarter
check-ins and we actually givethem a questionnaire where we
get them to rate the front desk,because they won't always tell
you but if you say hey, 0 to 10,how's the admin doing and they
(27:06):
might give it an A.
Then that's a conversation, howto rate you as a supervisor,
because a lot of us willsupervise and I would actually
do it.
I would do two a year, year,but my clinic manager would do
two a year, because not everyonewants to stare their boss at
the face, in the face who'spaying their mortgage, and say
like actually you're like aseven you know, what I mean, but
they might say it if you're notthere and they feel more
(27:26):
supported.
Yeah, um, so doing thatfrequently and I really like the
scales, because sometimes it'seasier to put an eight and have
the conversation more deep inperson rather than like just
saying it.
It feels scary sometimes, forsure, yeah, so frequent
check-ins to start, for sure.
And then just culture.
I did a keynote talk for Janeyesterday and there's an amazing
(27:46):
book called the culture code byDaniel Coyle and I think it's
the best book out there and hetalks about that.
Culture is really aboutbelonging and connection and
that really comes from theleader showing up authentically
and vulnerable.
And then there's really nohierarchy and we're just humans.
Yeah, neither of us are perfectbut we're doing our best.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, another way I think I approach this is that.
Back to the thing I was sayingearlier about I like to do hard
things.
I pick people who and I tellthem very early I want to do
hard things with you and Ipicked you so let's go do hard
things so if we?
ever get to a moment where Ineed to say something isn't
working, it can very easily belinked back to the goal that we
agreed on.
So, yeah, I think there's justways to really make it about the
(28:29):
thing you're trying to achievetogether.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, yeah, and also one of my favorite things is
like showing up curious ratherthan blaming right away, knowing
the attribution bias.
That's such a great tip.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Oh my gosh, that's such a great tip for the like
the leader.
Yes, exactly, it helps keep youout of the mindset of it's the
other person's fault You're likeactually what happened here?
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And they're less defensive because you're just
curious or sometimes confused,confusing, curious story.
I'm just a bit confused here.
You know this happened and thenthey're not going to get there.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
You're allowing them to talk, they're not going to
get defensive and then it getsresolved way faster.
Yeah, Nicole, thank you so muchfor being here today.
We will link in the show notesyour playbook and we'll also
link to the book that youmentioned.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Cause I think that's a great podcast.
If they're interested, oh,please tell us the business
savvy therapist.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Oh wow, Amazing.
Where can they find thisSpotify or Apple?
Awesome yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, thanks, nicole.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Thanks for tuning in to Radio Front Desk.
If you found this episodehelpful, it would mean so much
to me if you gave it a ratingand leave a review letting me
know what you think.
And if you're a fan, you cansubscribe to Radio Front Desk on
Apple Music, spotify andwherever you get your podcasts.
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