December 5, 2024 • 44 mins
This episode of 'Rarified' introduces listeners to the rare and endangered Spotted Gar, a unique fish inhabiting the shallow coastal waters of Lake Erie. Host interviews Dominique Rumble, a PhD student from the University of Toronto, who shares insights from her conservation research on the Spotted Gar. They discuss the fish's distinctive characteristics, behavior, habitat, and the main threats to their survival. Dominique also reminisces about fieldwork adventures and emphasizes the importance of wetland restoration projects.
00:00 Introduction to Rarified Podcast
00:27 Meet the Spotted Gar
01:34 Understanding the Spotted Gar
04:20 Habitat and Threats
12:30 Conservation Efforts
19:56 Fieldwork Adventures
25:02 Research and Future Plans
43:36 Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Theme Song (00:00):
In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a
legacy.
Let's listen close, let's take astand, to keep the wild across
the land.
In every stream, in every tree,a story lives, a legacy.
Meredith (00:24):
Welcome.
You found us.
Let the adventure begin.
This is Rarified, the podcastwhere we're going to learn to
love some of our rarest and mostimperiled species.
Today, we're jumping in the deepend.
Well, perhaps wading in to meeta very cool and very old fish
who loves the shallow coastalwaters of Lake Erie.
(00:47):
This endangered fish hangs outin many of the most popular
bays, but not many people havemet the spotted gar.
So to introduce us, we're goingto have to Dominique Rumble, a
PhD student in the Department ofPhysical and Environmental
Sciences at the University ofToronto, who's studying
conservation in the Great LakesBasin to join us.
(01:07):
She hopes her passion forconservation will aid in the
recovery of aquatic species atrisk while filling in the gaps
of knowledge in the restorationecology field.
She's also soon to be apublished children's author,
hoping to bring her love of theSpotted Gar to children
everywhere.
So jump in, the water's fine,and let's meet the incredible
Spotted Gar.
(01:33):
Awesome.
And today we're talking aboutspotted gar.
So this is a fish that you'restudying, but it's not exactly
the most common fish.
Like I don't know if everybodylistening knows what a spotted
gar is.
So can you tell us a little bitabout it?
Dominique Rumball (01:49):
Sure.
Absolutely.
And you're right.
It's a pretty, pretty rare fish.
It's actually an endangeredfish.
And our gar are known as ourliving dinosaurs or our living
fossils because they are so oldand they really kind of look the
same that they have overevolutionary time.
We don't really know why.
They don't evolve so quickly,but it is kind of guessed that
(02:12):
maybe they just have this reallygood ability to repair DNA, so
they've kind of just lastedlooking the same and just doing
their thing for so many years.
So when you look at gars, thefirst thing you'll think of is
this beautiful, long bodiedfish.
They're kind of shaped like abaseball bat, and they have this
really long mouth and lots ofvery spiky and sharp teeth.
(02:34):
And one of the very cool thingsabout Gars is that all of their
scales are made of bone.
So they actually have their ownbuilt in armor.
They're called Ganoid Scales andthey're made of bone and they
kind of interlock with oneanother to give them this really
cool body armor.
So when we think about Gars doactually have two in Ontario.
(02:55):
We have the long nosed and thespotted.
I mean, it can be a bit trickyto tell them apart from one
another, long nosed gar has avery long, needle like nose, and
our spotted gar have more of ashorter and stubbier nose,
almost like an alligator.
that's how you can tell.
the two apart.
something that you won't find inan ID book, which is just
(03:16):
something that I've kind ofgathered over my time handling
them, is longnose and spottedgar actually feel quite
different.
So longnose gar are quite firm.
not as rounded and they are notslimy at all.
But when you feel a spotted gar,they're quite slimy.
It's the first thing you feelwhen you, when you touch them,
(03:37):
they're much more rounded andthey're almost.
A little bit more squishier.
so yeah, that's, that's what agar looks like.
They're quite beautiful, and ofcourse, They have all of these
beautiful spots, hence theirname, the Spotted Gar.
Meredith (03:50):
How are these not more kids favorite animals if it's
literally like a dinosaur withbody armor?
Dominique Rumball (03:56):
Honestly, I don't know whenever I do show
any kids, I do a lot of outreachactivities, and whenever I show
them their gar, they're alwayslike, Oh, what is that?
Everyone always gets so excited.
So maybe because they're sorare, but they truly are a
beautiful, beautiful fish.
Meredith (04:12):
And I'm guessing, also, if they're rare, they're
in the water.
Probably most people haven'tseen them.
So, where do they live?
Like, where are they?
Where, where could we find agar, I guess, spotted gar,
because we have multiple gar.
Dominique Rumball (04:27):
Yeah.
So our Longnose, our LongnoseGar is quite common, so you can
find it in a lot of differentplaces, but our spotted gar and
the reason they are so rare isthat they're only found in Lake
Erie and they're only foundalong the three coastal
wetlands.
So starting from the easternside of Lake Erie, we have Long
Point Bay, and then we come inthe middle, we have Rondeau Bay,
(04:47):
and then Point Pelee.
They are found in some otherlocations, and we have found one
or two individuals here orthere.
But for the most part, they onlylive in those three coastal
wetlands, and that's where theircritical habitat is actually
found.
Meredith (05:05):
And what makes those three spots so special is that
the vegetation is that we don'thave many coastal wetlands left.
Dominique Rumball (05:14):
Yeah, so, they kind of like, they like
areas that we as humans alsoreally like to spend time in,
interestingly enough.
So they really like theseshallow areas.
Nice warm water, lots ofvegetation and so they really
also like, you know, like sandybottoms as well, we find them in
a lot of areas.
(05:35):
So they really do like thesekind of quiet, backwater coastal
wetland areas that are a bitmore protected.
And when I say that, really onlyfind them there when they're
spawning.
So in the spring and in thesummer, we do think they go
somewhere else for the rest ofthe year.
But we don't, we don't actuallyknow where they like to spend
(05:56):
all their time.
So when I say that this is thekind of habitat they like, we're
more talking about, this is thehabitat they like to kind of
reproduce and spend their springand summer.
Meredith (06:06):
I think that's one of the challenges with protecting
like a lot of the species wehave in Ontario, in North
America, is that we have a lotof information about certain
aspects So, Of the species lifeand then less aspects about
others.
Like I know American eel,another endangered fish.
We know about, you know, it'sadult life, but we really have
(06:30):
no idea what juveniles reallyare, where they come from and
where they go.
So it's interesting that it'sthe reverse for the spotted gar.
We know where they're spawning,but we're not really sure where
the adults are going.
Dominique Rumball (06:44):
Yeah.
And it's funny.
You should actually say thatbecause for this species too, We
can find them when they arereally tiny, like the size of my
hand, and we can find them whenthey're big, you know, over 30
to 40 centimeters long.
But for the life of us, we can'tfind them when they're in that
teenager stage.
So just like those eels,there's, there's still that
(07:05):
little bit of life.
We don't really know where theygo and what they do.
Meredith (07:10):
So do we know?
I guess either when they'rejuveniles or adults, what do
they eat?
Like are, how do they mate?
Like what's kind of like the dayin the life of a spotted gar?
Dominique Rumball (07:23):
Yeah.
So I can maybe start by talkingabout what they eat.
So we don't know everything theyeat but we do know a few really
important things about theirdiet.
So the first part is kind oftheir behavior and how they get
their food.
So spotted gar are known asambush predators.
And that just kind of means thatthey like to, you know, hide in
(07:44):
areas with lots of cover, likemaybe some vegetation or even
branches, sometimes even manmade structures like concrete.
they'll use this cover to hideand they'll just patiently sit
and wait until somethingdelicious goes by and they will
snap, get their prey and eatthem right away.
So they are ambush predators andthey are piscivores.
(08:05):
So they will mostly eat fishes.
In the water, they are known toopportunistically, whenever the
chance comes by, feed on a lotof other different things as
well.
But in terms of like thedifferent kind of fish species
we think they eat, we know theyeat a lot of different minnows
and some yellow perch as well,but that, that's kind of all we
(08:25):
know.
Meredith (08:28):
Okay, so another fish mostly eats other fish.
Very good hunter, ambushpredator.
So are they closer to the top ofthe, the food chain?
Dominique Rumball (08:38):
Yes, they would be, and they don't
actually have a lot of naturalpredators because they are, kind
of have that beautiful bodyarmor.
Not a lot of fish are able toreally get through that.
So they, they don't really havetoo many things that would eat
them.
Meredith (08:55):
So if they're not getting over predated, what are
the main threats then thatthey're facing?
Dominique Rumball (09:03):
Yeah, so it's an interesting question.
But unfortunately, the shortanswer is that we are their main
threat.
humans.
So the first and foremost threatand reason why they're at risk
is because we've destroyed a lotof their habitat.
So Ontario used to just kind ofbe, you know, pre settlement
circa 1800s, one big, massivewetland.
(09:27):
when we think about it today,you know, if you're from
Ontario, or if you're drivingthrough the area, sure that's
not what you see.
So we've actually lost up toalmost a third of our wetland
since that time.
So we've experienced a lot ofreally profound wetland loss and
a lot of that is concentratedalong the coasts of our Great
Lakes.
So we've lost a lot of theirhabitat and then there is a lot
(09:49):
of things we do that kind ofimpact the habitat that's left.
So some of them that we see incoastal areas in particular
there.
Are because we like to spendtime in these areas, as I
mentioned before, you know,there's an overlap between
guards and humans.
A lot of that really densevegetation that they like makes
it really difficult for us tokind of travel these areas.
(10:12):
So one of their biggest threatsin these coastal wetlands is
actually vegetation removal.
Which is often done a lot oftimes so that we can, you know,
boat through these areas andtravel through them.
But unfortunately that can bevery bad and make the habitat
inhospitable for a lot of gar.
And then we've also kind ofhardened a lot of our shoreline
(10:32):
that would have maybe beencoastal wetland habitat.
There are a few other threatsthat kind of fit within there
and one of them is exoticspecies.
So there, there are a ton.
Unfortunately there are too manyto name but some of the ones
that at least where I study themin Rondo Bay that are quite
prevalent would be common carpand European common reed, also
(10:56):
known as Phragmites.
So these would also impact theareas and their threats to where
they live.
a lot of these areas, too, wehave a lot of agricultural land,
so we get a lot of nutrients andsediments that come into our
ecosystems and I mean, some ofus have probably heard this term
that our wetlands are kind oflike the kidneys of our Great
(11:17):
Lakes, so they filter out allthe bad stuff, but unfortunately
when you have something livingin our filter system, cannot
always be the greatest for them.
So that's a really big risk.
for them as well.
And then the last major threatto spotted gar is climate
change.
It's a bit of an unknown though,because they do seem pretty
(11:38):
tolerant of warmer waters andthey do seem to like warmer,
shallow water, we're not surehow well they'll do in climate
change.
And we're not sure, maybe therewill be new habitat that they
can go to, but can they reachit?
We don't really know.
so it's a bit of an unknownthere, but it is one of their
major threats as well.
Meredith (11:59):
Yeah.
I mean, climate change, I feellike for so many species, it's
this like looming unknown and.
Unfortunately, until we areexperiencing more of the
impacts, it's hard to predict,especially since, you know, our
models aren't perfect.
We don't have the full pictureuntil we're living it.
And I mean, hopefully ouractions will limit the impact
(12:21):
slightly, but you know, that'sdefinitely a, a big unknown for
a lot of species in Canada andNorth America.
For sure.
So your work, you're mostly inRondo area.
What's the focus of yourresearch?
Dominique Rumball (12:35):
Yeah.
So I.
I have, I'm doing a lot.
I'm, I'm very lucky to be, to beworking with, with spotted gar
and specifically the Rondo Bayspotted gar population.
But I'm kind of looking at a bitnarrower of a subject.
So I'm working with St.
Clair Region ConservationAuthority on a restoration
project there.
(12:56):
And really what we're studyingis to look at, you know, not
just spotted gar, but thecommunity response restoration.
So I am lucky enough to workwith St.
Clair Conservation, and I justwant to shout out Craig
Cotterson, who's the manager.
At the Conservation Authority,as well as the entire team
there, because they, they reallyhelped me out a lot.
(13:16):
They've given me a lot oftraining, a lot of guidance,
and, you know, we couldn't dothis work without them.
So I just really want to thankthem.
so, together, what we'reimplementing is something called
a Before After Control ImpactStudy.
this just basically in fancyterms just means that we're
taking a very accepted andstandardized approach to
(13:37):
monitoring restoration, wherewe're really just trying to
tease out the impacts of, youknow, time and the impacts of
space and just get at Howrestoration is actually
impacting spotted gar as well asthe fish community in this area,
and we do that by studying thearea before any action is taking
(13:57):
and studying, you know, areasaround the restoration site as
well as those are controls.
And then over time, we'llhopefully do the restoration
action and then measure after aswell.
so specifically for thisproject, we were trying to turn
what was, I'm sure many moonsago, a beautiful wetland.
(14:17):
It had now been turned into afarmland and we wanted to bring
it back to that, you know, towhat it once was.
And we of different threats tospotted gar.
(14:44):
So we kind of had to look atthis from an ecosystem approach
and consider some of thosethreats too.
I mentioned before that two ofthe invasive species that are
pretty impactful for spotted garare common carp and European
common reed or phragmites.
So in this property, we'retreating Phragmites that is
there because Phragmites willgrow in these really, really
(15:06):
dense stands.
And they basically just createhabitat that fish can't access.
So it's so dense that they can'taccess it.
So in this area, we're treatingthe Phragmites in the hope that
we can kind of create a bit morehabitat that's accessible to
fishes and turtles and all sortsof other animals that live in
the water and create more kindof habitat area.
(15:30):
Within within our project site.
And then on the other side ofthings, we also had to figure
out how to address kind of thecommon carp.
So common carp are really justbecause they do two things.
So they uproot a lot ofvegetation, which for the gar
wouldn't be great.
then they also create thisreally turbid water and it just
(15:52):
kind of means, you know, likecoffee water really, really,
it's got a lot of sedimentfloating around in it.
It's really murky.
And unfortunately, we do knowthat spotted gar have really
reduced with their eggs hatchingwhen the water is really turbid.
So it's something that we wantedto make sure we addressed.
So in this case, we're actuallygoing to install jail bar,
(16:16):
literally looks like jail bars,base exclusion at the front of
our newly created wetlandhabitat to make sure that the
really big carp that are reallydisruptful to these environments
can't actually enter.
And we hope that the spotted garwill be able to enter them.
And there's, there's manydifferent ways I can, if you'd
like, I can go through kind ofmy actual sampling and how, how
(16:39):
we got to this point looks like,if that's, if that's best.
Meredith (16:42):
Yeah, like, I mean, I think for aquatic species, you
know, how do we actually studythem?
Dominique Rumball (16:48):
Yeah.
this, this is what my studylooks like.
There's many different ways todo it.
But for this project inparticular every May and June,
we would head out to Rondo Bayand we'd set a bunch of fight
nets.
So if you don't know what a fikenet is, it's what we call a
passive gear type.
So it sits in the water and letsthe fishes come to it.
(17:09):
And so we know that fishesreally like to swim along
shores.
It's just something we knowabout their behavior and they
really like to follow, followshores and, and lines.
And so what we'll do is we'llset a fike net and it has this
long line that leads all the wayto the shore and we set it
perpendicular to shore.
as the fish swims, it'll hit thenet, and because they like to
(17:30):
follow all the lines and theshores, they just keep following
it right into our net.
that works out well for us.
As it swims into the back of thenet, or the quad end of the net,
there's little funnels that getsmaller and smaller, so it's
really hard for them to get backout.
So what we'll do is we'll setthese for about 24 hours and
then we'll pick them, and we'llsee not just what spotted gar we
can catch in there, but also,What other kinds of fishes that
(17:53):
are supporting that community wecan find in there as well.
So we do this at all sorts ofsites and at every site we take,
you know, things like waterquality, what kind of vegetation
is there, there's underwaterstructure there, how deep the
water is.
so at every site we set thesenets, we get this really good
idea of kind of a little microecosystem and what it looks
like.
(18:14):
And then we do that all aroundour different areas.
But that being said, we can onlycatch spotted gar that way.
so we do have to approachcatching the baby gar a little
bit different, our littlejuvenile gars.
so I have no clue who figuredthis out, hats off to them but
(18:34):
someone figured out thatjuvenile baby gar just like to
sit down.
Just below the surface of thewater and kind of float.
and so the best way to catchthem is actually just to, we
would go to a site, anchor ourboat.
And then we would just stare atthe water for, you know, 15
minutes, half an hour.
And sure enough, you would see alittle guard just float right
(18:57):
out from under, you know, a lilypad.
And you had to, you know, getyour a game on, make sure you're
feeling athletic and just takean aquarium net and scoop it out
the water.
that's how we catch the baby,baby guard, the juvenile guard.
Unfortunately you can't tell thedifference between long nose and
spotted gar.
So what we do at that size is wejust take a little fin clip,
(19:18):
They're totally okay.
They don't seem to mind it.
They swim away just fine.
and then months later, back inthe lab, we'll eventually
analyze that thin clip to figureout what kind of gar we actually
caught.
Meredith (19:30):
So we're using genetics from that fin clip to
figure that out.
Dominique Rumball (19:34):
Yes.
Yeah.
So we, we luckily have thiswhole, a bit complicated process
to figure out, but there is agene that we can test for.
That we basically can tell usit's a long nose or it's a
spotted.
Meredith (19:47):
Cool.
So it sounds like you spend alot of time on the water and in
wetlands.
Dominique Rumball (19:53):
I do, I spend a lot of time, I love the
wetlands.
Meredith (19:56):
Do you have a favorite story from the field or like
from when you've been out doingyour studies?
Both.
Dominique Rumball (20:03):
well, I do have a favorite story.
I do want to mention though, Ido feel like, for those who work
in the field, you kind of knowthis, but, Fieldwork is kind of
like, a little bit like Vegas.
Usually what, what happens therestays there.
So I did get permission to sharethis story.
But yeah, it is, there's alwayslots of fun stories in the
field.
You never know what to expect.
(20:25):
But for this story, I'll, I'llchoose to share.
It was the first year of myproject.
We had just gotten some brandnew fight nets and it was the
first week we were setting them.
So we're all excited.
Turtles were a big issue for us.
So we were trying out somedifferent things that we put on
the front of the net to makesure that the turtles weren't,
you know, getting in the net.
(20:46):
so, you know, we've got thisbrand new exclusion.
Brand new nets.
We set them in the water.
Meredith (20:51):
Both.
Both.
Silence.
Dominique Rumball (21:02):
No, Craig's a pretty strong guy.
Like, you know, training for anIronman.
I play rugby.
We're thinking here we are, likewe're two strong individuals.
What's going on?
Why can't, you know, we pullthis net into the boat.
enough, we start taking a lookand we can see that our turtle
exclusion on the one side of ournet is just gone.
Something has absolutely.
(21:22):
destroyed it.
And then we take a peek into thenet and all we see are many
little heads of snappingturtles.
So unfortunately we didn't havetoo many fish.
So we thought, well, maybe wecan just, you know, open the cod
end, open the back end, let themgo.
but because they have differentsized funnels in our nets,
(21:44):
unfortunately, they were allcaptured in the middle of the
net.
and unfortunately, at thismoment, this is when we realized
that unlike our old nets thathave a zipper to get turtles out
of that middle section, our newones did not.
Meredith (21:59):
No.
Okay.
Dominique Rumball (22:01):
we were like, Oh, what do we do?
So we decided to eventually getthe net into the bottom of the
boat.
Did have to call my supervisorand say, hi, sorry.
I just cut a hole, massive holein your brand new net, where the
zipper would have been.
and so we got it into the bottomof the boat and we've got, I
think it was about nine snappingturtles.
(22:22):
And one of them was, The largestone I've ever seen in my life.
so we're like, okay, I guesswe'll just try and, you know,
take one out at a time.
now at this time I had a veryirrational deathly fear of
staffing turtles.
So I was definitely not stickingmy hands in the net.
So it was definitely up to, tomy colleague Craig to do that.
(22:43):
But I was kind of holding somepaddles, trying to shield him.
from, you know, the heads of theother snapping turtles.
of course, you know, there werenine in there.
We did not have nearly enoughpaddles.
So sure enough, we're trying toget that first turtle out.
And one snaps and just grabsCraig's finger momentarily.
So things are very chaotic.
(23:04):
You know, trying to make sureCraig's okay at this point.
The turtles are in the bottom ofthe boat and some of them are
actually just starting to getmad and start exiting the net
themselves.
And so the biggest snappingturtle decided to start walking
in the bottom of the boattowards me.
So I panicked a little and Istepped up onto the bench of the
boat.
I was like, please stop comingtowards me.
(23:27):
and sure enough, my, again, veryirrational fear, this turtle
kept coming towards me and Ijust, I guess I thought it was
gonna, it was gonna get me andso I just fell right out of the
boat.
Meredith (23:36):
No.
Dominique Rumball (23:37):
into the wetlands.
So yeah, you know, it was, itwas a bit stressful.
We did eventually composeourselves.
We did safely and rather quicklyget the rest of them out of the
net.
And, you know, besides a prettysore finger and a bit of a wet
outfit to remember the day by.
We were, we were okay.
I do want to mention I am a bitbetter at handling snapping
(23:58):
turtles.
I wouldn't say without fear, butwith a bit more comfort now.
I don't think they'd force meout of the boat.
but you know, at the time it wasa pretty terrifying
Meredith (24:08):
I mean, you know, there's another species that
really still looks like adinosaur.
Dominique Rumball (24:13):
Absolutely.
Meredith (24:15):
understand there's maybe some sort of primal
reaction for dinosaur coming atyou.
I think that's a fair, I thinkmultiple people listening to
this would jump out of the boattoo.
Dominique Rumball (24:25):
I hope so.
I think it does go to show, youknow, you don't have to, you
don't have to be perfect ateverything in the field to get
into it, you know, with, withsome, with some willingness to
learn, some commitment to theprocess and, you know, a very
good mentor can overcome thesekinds of things.
Meredith (24:42):
And I mean, getting into this field is, is no joke.
I know some people who aredeathly afraid of snakes and
then the job they got wasmonitoring snakes and they're
like, well, this is how I getinto the field.
So I guess I'm facing my fears.
So.
We've talked a little bit thatyour research is looking at a
(25:05):
wetland restoration project andhow, I'm guessing you're trying
to see how successful theseactions are.
What are other actions beingtaken to, you know, protect and
support the spotted gar?
Is it mostly restorationactivities and research or, or
what else are people working on?
Dominique Rumball (25:25):
Yeah.
So this is where kind of, youknow, having a species listed
under the Species at Risk Act isquite helpful because they put a
lot of really good thingstogether.
And one of those things is kindof a recovery strategy that kind
of approaches how we help notjust spotted gar, but any other
species that's listed.
So there are three main areas ofaction that we consider when
(25:48):
we're looking at recoveringspotted gar.
So the first one is justmonitoring them.
So this is, you know, we want tokeep track of where they used to
be, where they are now we wantto make sure if we're seeing any
major changes in theirpopulation size, that we're, you
know, monitoring them oftenenough that we can detect that.
And then I mentioned before,there were some, you know, areas
(26:10):
we don't really know if they'rethere, or we've caught one
individual and we're not surewhy.
So it's important to kind ofalso sample those areas and
monitor those areas that.
We don't really know if they'rethere to see if anything
changes.
So monitoring is kind of thatfirst really big area.
And then the second one isresearch.
(26:30):
And this is kind of when you getinto more of the specifics about
the spotted gar life and, youknow, how they live.
And what's really important forspotted gar in particular is for
understanding how the threatsthat we talked about.
Are impacting, you know how theylive or their survival.
So when we when we say how howthey live because they are part
(26:52):
of such a complex and dynamicfood web and ecosystem, even
doing things that change theirbehavior can have massive
impacts.
And if everyone wants to see areally good example of that in a
terrestrial ecosystem, they canlook at the documentary how
wolves change rivers.
But basically, it's just, youknow, you do change, you remove
(27:12):
something or you change abehavior.
It can have a cascading effectand change an entire ecosystem.
So it's really important for usto understand how we're changing
the behavior and if we'rechanging, you know, the survival
of spotted gar.
so one of the ways we do that isspecifically looking at how
exotic species like common carpand common reed.
(27:34):
European common reed orphragmites impact them, and
sometimes even how us treatingsomething like phragmites or
European common reed mightimpact them.
And then as well, one of thereally cool things that we don't
know much about is, Why Longnoseand Spotted Gar have such
different distributions becauseLongnose Gar are kind of found
(27:55):
everywhere in Ontario, butSpotted Gar are only found along
the coast.
So understanding how theycoexist and why they don't kind
of existent like Gar do in therest of the rest of Ontario, at
least.
then lastly, like we want to beable to try, and as we talked
about earlier, predict theeffects of climate change.
So those are some of the really.
(28:17):
specific areas of research thatwe're looking into.
And then the last one is a bitintegrated within, you know,
research and what we're doingnow is just that, that
stewardship outreach and kind ofawareness piece of recovery.
so it's really important.
when we're trying to recover aspecies that we promote things
like stewardship and what'shappening now habitat
(28:38):
restoration.
And we get local individuals andlocal communities involved in
kind of taking care of andimproving not just coastal
wetlands, but you know, theareas that they're living in.
So another really cool way thatwe can Kind of give a little bit
of outreach and awareness isalso by talking to commercial
and recreational fishers, so wedon't, we don't think that, you
(29:01):
know, these fishing industrieshave a big impact on spotted
gar, but it is important that ifthey are catching spotted gar
that they can identify them.
what to do with them and alsokind of let people know so that
maybe these are new data pointsthat we have and we know more
about them.
so there are lots of differentways that, you know, people can
improve the health of theirwatersheds and, and just, help
(29:25):
more, give more information.
So that's kind of where thatlast, you know, stewardship
outreach and awareness piececomes into recovery.
Meredith (29:33):
Yeah, and if people are listening to this and
they're like, well, what actionscan I take to improve the health
of the watershed that I'm in,especially if you're around like
Erie, like, or if you could wavea magic wand and have people
change something that all livearound Lake Erie, like what
would you want them to do?
So, so, so,
Dominique Rumball (30:03):
that there are so many different ways that
we can help.
But I think the first is that wereally need to just repair our
relationship with nature andjust become reconnected with
nature.
I think a lot of us have becomedisconnected and, you know,
maybe we don't want to help, wedon't care.
And so there's just not enoughreason for it.
(30:25):
So I really think before we doconsider, you know, other types
of action, we should all justtake a moment Take some time and
just visit with nature andreconnect with it.
now that being said, I thinkeducation is one of the biggest
things that we do inconservation.
A lot of times when we helpspecies at risk, just making
(30:47):
sure that we do have and createand keep our ecosystems healthy.
when we have these healthyecosystems, we actually coexist
with nature a lot better.
So nature will provide us,especially coastal wetlands,
with a lot of really valuableand services.
And often times the way naturedoes their job and how cost
(31:09):
effective it is for nature to dothat.
to provide these services isjust incomparable to anything
that, you know, humans couldbuild or invent.
So at the end of the day, it'sreally important to learn about
our ecosystems, learn about ourspecies at risk, learn how they
support us and what functionsand, you know.
Services they provide, and thenin turn, we can figure out how
(31:31):
we can support them to achievemore of a better, you know,
balance and symbioticrelationship.
now that, that's a pretty genlike a, a general answer, so if
you don't know where to start toget your kind of education, I
would really recommend visitingyour local conservation
authority, and they can kind ofhelp
Meredith (31:51):
Yeah.
Hm.
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
And that's a wrap.
You have one minute.
Dominique Rumball (32:12):
today is just to make sure that you, you know,
share what you learn.
So we're really lucky to live inthis place where we interact
with people from, you know, allwalks of life, all backgrounds,
all different experiences.
And having a conversation aboutwhat, you know, you may learn
about your ecosystem is just agreat way to share your
knowledge, but also to get adifferent perspective.
(32:33):
and maybe just without knowingit kind of collectively come
together and even start problemsolving for some of the issues
that we face.
Meredith (32:41):
I love that because truly the individual impact, I
mean, it's great, but it'sreally the collective impact.
And the only reason we're goingto, you know, reach a community
or collective is by is throughrelationships and chatting.
So I think that's a reallyimportant piece.
And when people are having theseconversations, I What sort of
(33:02):
fun facts about the spotted garshould they sprinkle in because
I'm a sucker for a fun fact andsometimes, you know, a good
conversation, like, and a funfact thrown in there gets people
excited.
Dominique Rumball (33:15):
Yeah.
I just think that they're,they're so rare.
They're only found in Lake Erieis a great fun fact.
I do think that their scales aremade of bone is just so awesome.
The other one that I would saythat I haven't, I mean, I could
have talked about it, but Ihaven't yet is that believe it
or not spotted gar are airbreathers.
So yes, they live in the waterand that's their home.
(33:38):
And they can get all the oxygenthey need from the water.
But when.
The water isn't providing enoughoxygen.
They actually just stick theirlittle snouts out of the water
and gulp air.
And they have kind of like amodified lung and they can
basically just take oxygen fromthe air as well.
so I think that's a really,really cool thing and, and I've
seen it from, you know, the babygars that are smaller than my
(34:00):
hand to the massive, you know,70 centimeter long adults.
And they all just do thisbeautiful air gulp and just swim
away.
So I think that's one of thepretty cool fun facts.
Meredith (34:11):
That is a very cool fun fact and probably helps you
when you're studying them.
If you have them out of thewater on occasion.
Dominique Rumball (34:18):
Yes, yeah, exactly.
I mean, we try and limit, welimit as much as we can how much
they are out of the water, butyes, they can ergo, which is,
which is a bit nice.
Meredith (34:28):
Awesome.
Well, we've talked a lot aboutthe spotted gar and obviously a
very cool, but very endangeredfish.
But I'd like to know a littlebit, just quickly, a little bit
more about you and how you evengot involved working with
spotted gar and how you got intoresearch.
Dominique Rumball (34:46):
Yeah, so this is, this is a pretty good
question.
And it's pretty funny I findbecause, know, if I thought
about this five years ago andthought, Oh, where will I be in
five years?
This is, this is definitely notit.
But I'm so glad that it is.
So it kind of all started in myundergrad at Queen's University.
I took a two week fisheriesfield course.
(35:06):
absolutely loved it.
I will say I was awful athandling you know, the fish and
the fishes and everything, butit was a really good time.
I learned a lot.
It was fantastic.
So when I kind of started tothink about, you know, graduate
school and looking at differentmaster's program, I was drawn to
one lab in particular.
And this is one of my, one of mysupervisors, Dr.
(35:27):
Nicholas.
And it's out of the Universityof Toronto.
So this lab largely focuses onfreshwater conservation, and I
was really excited.
So I kind of, you know, amessage out to
Meredith (35:37):
Okay.
Dominique Rumball (35:57):
in the sense that it had a very cool culture.
So it was one of the only labswhen I was doing a lot of my
research at different schoolsand even within, within U of T
that had a diversity, equity andinclusion statement on its
website.
and after kind of being part ofthe lab and meeting everyone
it's something that I saw, youknow, diversity was not just
embraced.
It was really celebrated there.
(36:18):
And so I knew that I was goingto like the research and just
having that culture of a lab.
I thought this is the rightplace for me to be.
so sure enough.
I ended up joining the lab and,you know, within a few weeks of
being out on the week sorry, outon the water.
I was actually getting trainedby one of my colleagues,
Jennifer.
like chub sucker.
And within those first couple ofweeks, I just kind of knew that
(36:40):
I had found, you know, mypassion and that this is what,
this is what I wanted to do fora really long time.
I look back now though, and Ithink how it's kind of funny
that I never realized this iswhat I wanted to do.
As a kid, you know, my familyused to joke and they call me a
fish or a mermaid, you know,tell me I had gills because I
would never get out of thewater.
(37:01):
You know, I'd be in my grandma'sswimming pool or up at the
cottage.
I'd just throw a pair of goggleson and, you know, stare at the
underwater world that was justunfolding.
And it was all so fascinating tome.
I think now how water's kind of,you know, it's a touchstone for
me when things are going well inlife, when things aren't going
so well.
like I just have such a deepconnection with it.
(37:22):
I'll just go and visit thewater.
I'll stand in the water.
I'll feel the waves and thingsjust seem better.
so no matter you know whatspecies I do work on or what
what body of water I really justdo feel privileged to be able
to, you know, hopefully be agood steward to the land and,
know, try and reconnect peopleback to the beautiful waters
(37:43):
that we have, because I now seethat, you know, this is where I
was meant to be.
It just took me some time tofigure it out.
Meredith (37:50):
Yeah, I love that you brought up, you know, lab
culture, because that can bealmost as important as the
research that you're doing.
And as you know, people whoobviously know how important
biodiversity is sometimes are, Ipersonally think that our field
has a long way to go insupporting diversity within the
(38:13):
field.
So it's awesome to hear thatthere are labs that are putting
that at the forefront of theirmission.
and and I, I totally agree withyou too, that, you know, in
Canada, but especially Ontarioand North America, lakes and
water are.
Such a part of our identity,like the great lakes, even
growing up in Toronto, you know,you're on Lake Ontario, it's
(38:35):
this huge body of water.
And you kind of just think,well, this is what lakes are.
And then you go other places andyou're like, Oh no, like this is
a really special, unique thingto, to home.
And it really does help you likereconnect with, with where
you're from.
And I love being by the watertoo.
So.
As fellow mermaids, I, I totallyunderstand.
Dominique Rumball (38:56):
love it.
Meredith (38:57):
So, so last question for you, and it might be the
toughest one yet, but we'veheard about your restoration
project and your research, butlike, what, what are the next
steps?
What are you, what are youhoping for, for the future?
Dominique Rumball (39:12):
Yeah, so that's a really great question.
In the short term, and somethingI didn't.
Get too into when I was talkingabout my project I am continuing
on with this project for thenext, hopefully three years.
So we have a lot of, you know,spotted guard that we've also
tagged with a different,different types of tags.
(39:32):
And because we've tagged them,I'm really, really excited to
continue monitoring this projectand see if once the restoration
is You know, completed, we'll beable to track where they go.
And if they come in and out ofthe wetland that we create and
how long they spend in there, soI'm, I'm really excited for the
next phase of my research andhopefully again, that'll, you
(39:54):
know, happen over the next twoor three years for next steps.
And in my career, I mean, I'm inyear two of five of my PhD.
So luckily I do have some timeto figure out what exactly I
want to do, but I really dothink.
Working in wetlands is somethingthat's really important.
And I do think, you know,studying spotted gar is really
important as well.
(40:14):
aren't too many people whoactually do study them.
So, quick shout out to BillGlass, who is one of the only
who's, you know, really pulled alot of information.
During his doctoral work spottedcar.
So, you know, his research iskind of what we know about
spotted guard in the area.
There isn't too much elsebesides a few studies here and
(40:37):
there.
So it's really just a privilegeto be able to continue studying
them because I think they, youknow, they deserve some
recognition, they deserve somelove.
So hopefully we can get them toa place that, we can, we can
actually make meaningful changefor them.
and then for wetlands, they arejust so important, so I really
hope I can continue working inthem.
They're, they're a bit morechallenging, I think, in some
(40:59):
ways but I really do think thatthey're, they're just such an
important part of our ecosystemthat we really need to figure
out how to conserve the ones wehave left and hopefully how to
restore some.
Back to, you know, what theyused to be.
Meredith (41:13):
Great answer.
And also, I guess I lied becausenow I have another question for
you.
And this is the danger of doinga podcast with me.
I might never let you leave.
So are you hoping with thesetagged individuals to answer the
question of what theseintermittent.
And I guess, you know, juvenilesor teenagers, intermediate fish
are doing and what they looklike.
(41:33):
Are you hoping to find one ofthose elusive teenagers?
Dominique Rumball (41:37):
So unfortunately we can only tag
the really big gar.
Yeah, so, you know, tagging is,this is all very, this is all
very stressful for, for spottedgar, even just, you know,
putting them in a net andhandling them, it's a very, you
know, we're taking them out oftheir home in a very unfamiliar
environment.
You know, we're handling them.
This is very stressful.
Some fish will die from handlingstress.
(42:00):
So.
know, it's really importantjust, you know, to make sure
that we're actually handling theones that are big enough to
survive.
And so we're only tagging theones that are big enough to
survive.
We've had really good successrate with it so far.
So unfortunately, most of theseare past that stage.
I will share one little successstory though.
(42:20):
We did actually capture ajuvenile so in that teenager
life stage this past year whilesampling.
And we're, we're still waitingon the analysis, the genetic
analysis.
We took a fin clip just to be onthe safe side.
But based on, kind of, you canlook at their snout
measurements, we do believe itwas a spotted guard juvenile.
So, they are there.
(42:41):
Whether we can find them or notis a different story altogether.
But, the last thing I will sayabout this is, I do have my own
hypothesis why we struggle tofind them.
And that's because they justgrow so fast that I don't think
we we capture them in that lifestage very often.
So we're at the edge of theirpopulation here in Canada, and
(43:03):
edge populations have been shownto grow much faster.
And in the States, they actuallysaid that their gar could grow
over 30 centimeters long beforethe winter.
So I suspect maybe that's what'shappening is they're just
growing very fast, but you know,you would hope that we would
catch A few of them here andthere but it still remains a
(43:24):
mystery to me.
Meredith (43:26):
Maybe we just need to make these fish more abundant so
that we have a better shot ofcatching some teenagers.
Dominique Rumball (43:33):
Exactly.
That would be the dream.
Meredith (43:36):
That's a wrap on the Spotted Gar.
A massive thank you to DominiqueRumble for taking the time to
share her research with us.
And here's to a follow upepisode when she's completed the
restoration project.
And if you love this episode,please subscribe and leave us a
review.
It helps rarefied reach morepeople who care about our
planet's rarest creatures.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram at rarefied.
(43:58):
pod and sign up for ournewsletter on our website for
updates, behind the scenes.
And sneak peeks at upcomingepisodes.
Next time, we'll be leaving thecoast of the Great Lakes behind,
but we won't go too far.
We're going to explore theforests of Southern Ontario in
search of a rare and beautifulplant.
You won't want to miss it.
So until next time, get outthere and explore the wild
(44:20):
because every species has astory, and every one of us can
make a difference.
Thanks for listening, and untilnext time, happy trails!
In every stream, in every tree, a story lives, a
legacy.
Let's listen close, let's take astand, to keep the wild across
the land.
In every stream, in every tree,a story lives, a legacy.
Meredith (00:24):
Welcome.
You found us.
Let the adventure begin.
This is Rarified, the podcastwhere we're going to learn to
love some of our rarest and mostimperiled species.
Today, we're jumping in the deepend.
Well, perhaps wading in to meeta very cool and very old fish
who loves the shallow coastalwaters of Lake Erie.
(00:47):
This endangered fish hangs outin many of the most popular
bays, but not many people havemet the spotted gar.
So to introduce us, we're goingto have to Dominique Rumble, a
PhD student in the Department ofPhysical and Environmental
Sciences at the University ofToronto, who's studying
conservation in the Great LakesBasin to join us.
(01:07):
She hopes her passion forconservation will aid in the
recovery of aquatic species atrisk while filling in the gaps
of knowledge in the restorationecology field.
She's also soon to be apublished children's author,
hoping to bring her love of theSpotted Gar to children
everywhere.
So jump in, the water's fine,and let's meet the incredible
Spotted Gar.
(01:33):
Awesome.
And today we're talking aboutspotted gar.
So this is a fish that you'restudying, but it's not exactly
the most common fish.
Like I don't know if everybodylistening knows what a spotted
gar is.
So can you tell us a little bitabout it?
Dominique Rumball (01:49):
Sure.
Absolutely.
And you're right.
It's a pretty, pretty rare fish.
It's actually an endangeredfish.
And our gar are known as ourliving dinosaurs or our living
fossils because they are so oldand they really kind of look the
same that they have overevolutionary time.
We don't really know why.
They don't evolve so quickly,but it is kind of guessed that
(02:12):
maybe they just have this reallygood ability to repair DNA, so
they've kind of just lastedlooking the same and just doing
their thing for so many years.
So when you look at gars, thefirst thing you'll think of is
this beautiful, long bodiedfish.
They're kind of shaped like abaseball bat, and they have this
really long mouth and lots ofvery spiky and sharp teeth.
(02:34):
And one of the very cool thingsabout Gars is that all of their
scales are made of bone.
So they actually have their ownbuilt in armor.
They're called Ganoid Scales andthey're made of bone and they
kind of interlock with oneanother to give them this really
cool body armor.
So when we think about Gars doactually have two in Ontario.
(02:55):
We have the long nosed and thespotted.
I mean, it can be a bit trickyto tell them apart from one
another, long nosed gar has avery long, needle like nose, and
our spotted gar have more of ashorter and stubbier nose,
almost like an alligator.
that's how you can tell.
the two apart.
something that you won't find inan ID book, which is just
(03:16):
something that I've kind ofgathered over my time handling
them, is longnose and spottedgar actually feel quite
different.
So longnose gar are quite firm.
not as rounded and they are notslimy at all.
But when you feel a spotted gar,they're quite slimy.
It's the first thing you feelwhen you, when you touch them,
(03:37):
they're much more rounded andthey're almost.
A little bit more squishier.
so yeah, that's, that's what agar looks like.
They're quite beautiful, and ofcourse, They have all of these
beautiful spots, hence theirname, the Spotted Gar.
Meredith (03:50):
How are these not more kids favorite animals if it's
literally like a dinosaur withbody armor?
Dominique Rumball (03:56):
Honestly, I don't know whenever I do show
any kids, I do a lot of outreachactivities, and whenever I show
them their gar, they're alwayslike, Oh, what is that?
Everyone always gets so excited.
So maybe because they're sorare, but they truly are a
beautiful, beautiful fish.
Meredith (04:12):
And I'm guessing, also, if they're rare, they're
in the water.
Probably most people haven'tseen them.
So, where do they live?
Like, where are they?
Where, where could we find agar, I guess, spotted gar,
because we have multiple gar.
Dominique Rumball (04:27):
Yeah.
So our Longnose, our LongnoseGar is quite common, so you can
find it in a lot of differentplaces, but our spotted gar and
the reason they are so rare isthat they're only found in Lake
Erie and they're only foundalong the three coastal
wetlands.
So starting from the easternside of Lake Erie, we have Long
Point Bay, and then we come inthe middle, we have Rondeau Bay,
(04:47):
and then Point Pelee.
They are found in some otherlocations, and we have found one
or two individuals here orthere.
But for the most part, they onlylive in those three coastal
wetlands, and that's where theircritical habitat is actually
found.
Meredith (05:05):
And what makes those three spots so special is that
the vegetation is that we don'thave many coastal wetlands left.
Dominique Rumball (05:14):
Yeah, so, they kind of like, they like
areas that we as humans alsoreally like to spend time in,
interestingly enough.
So they really like theseshallow areas.
Nice warm water, lots ofvegetation and so they really
also like, you know, like sandybottoms as well, we find them in
a lot of areas.
(05:35):
So they really do like thesekind of quiet, backwater coastal
wetland areas that are a bitmore protected.
And when I say that, really onlyfind them there when they're
spawning.
So in the spring and in thesummer, we do think they go
somewhere else for the rest ofthe year.
But we don't, we don't actuallyknow where they like to spend
(05:56):
all their time.
So when I say that this is thekind of habitat they like, we're
more talking about, this is thehabitat they like to kind of
reproduce and spend their springand summer.
Meredith (06:06):
I think that's one of the challenges with protecting
like a lot of the species wehave in Ontario, in North
America, is that we have a lotof information about certain
aspects So, Of the species lifeand then less aspects about
others.
Like I know American eel,another endangered fish.
We know about, you know, it'sadult life, but we really have
(06:30):
no idea what juveniles reallyare, where they come from and
where they go.
So it's interesting that it'sthe reverse for the spotted gar.
We know where they're spawning,but we're not really sure where
the adults are going.
Dominique Rumball (06:44):
Yeah.
And it's funny.
You should actually say thatbecause for this species too, We
can find them when they arereally tiny, like the size of my
hand, and we can find them whenthey're big, you know, over 30
to 40 centimeters long.
But for the life of us, we can'tfind them when they're in that
teenager stage.
So just like those eels,there's, there's still that
(07:05):
little bit of life.
We don't really know where theygo and what they do.
Meredith (07:10):
So do we know?
I guess either when they'rejuveniles or adults, what do
they eat?
Like are, how do they mate?
Like what's kind of like the dayin the life of a spotted gar?
Dominique Rumball (07:23):
Yeah.
So I can maybe start by talkingabout what they eat.
So we don't know everything theyeat but we do know a few really
important things about theirdiet.
So the first part is kind oftheir behavior and how they get
their food.
So spotted gar are known asambush predators.
And that just kind of means thatthey like to, you know, hide in
(07:44):
areas with lots of cover, likemaybe some vegetation or even
branches, sometimes even manmade structures like concrete.
they'll use this cover to hideand they'll just patiently sit
and wait until somethingdelicious goes by and they will
snap, get their prey and eatthem right away.
So they are ambush predators andthey are piscivores.
(08:05):
So they will mostly eat fishes.
In the water, they are known toopportunistically, whenever the
chance comes by, feed on a lotof other different things as
well.
But in terms of like thedifferent kind of fish species
we think they eat, we know theyeat a lot of different minnows
and some yellow perch as well,but that, that's kind of all we
(08:25):
know.
Meredith (08:28):
Okay, so another fish mostly eats other fish.
Very good hunter, ambushpredator.
So are they closer to the top ofthe, the food chain?
Dominique Rumball (08:38):
Yes, they would be, and they don't
actually have a lot of naturalpredators because they are, kind
of have that beautiful bodyarmor.
Not a lot of fish are able toreally get through that.
So they, they don't really havetoo many things that would eat
them.
Meredith (08:55):
So if they're not getting over predated, what are
the main threats then thatthey're facing?
Dominique Rumball (09:03):
Yeah, so it's an interesting question.
But unfortunately, the shortanswer is that we are their main
threat.
humans.
So the first and foremost threatand reason why they're at risk
is because we've destroyed a lotof their habitat.
So Ontario used to just kind ofbe, you know, pre settlement
circa 1800s, one big, massivewetland.
(09:27):
when we think about it today,you know, if you're from
Ontario, or if you're drivingthrough the area, sure that's
not what you see.
So we've actually lost up toalmost a third of our wetland
since that time.
So we've experienced a lot ofreally profound wetland loss and
a lot of that is concentratedalong the coasts of our Great
Lakes.
So we've lost a lot of theirhabitat and then there is a lot
(09:49):
of things we do that kind ofimpact the habitat that's left.
So some of them that we see incoastal areas in particular
there.
Are because we like to spendtime in these areas, as I
mentioned before, you know,there's an overlap between
guards and humans.
A lot of that really densevegetation that they like makes
it really difficult for us tokind of travel these areas.
(10:12):
So one of their biggest threatsin these coastal wetlands is
actually vegetation removal.
Which is often done a lot oftimes so that we can, you know,
boat through these areas andtravel through them.
But unfortunately that can bevery bad and make the habitat
inhospitable for a lot of gar.
And then we've also kind ofhardened a lot of our shoreline
(10:32):
that would have maybe beencoastal wetland habitat.
There are a few other threatsthat kind of fit within there
and one of them is exoticspecies.
So there, there are a ton.
Unfortunately there are too manyto name but some of the ones
that at least where I study themin Rondo Bay that are quite
prevalent would be common carpand European common reed, also
(10:56):
known as Phragmites.
So these would also impact theareas and their threats to where
they live.
a lot of these areas, too, wehave a lot of agricultural land,
so we get a lot of nutrients andsediments that come into our
ecosystems and I mean, some ofus have probably heard this term
that our wetlands are kind oflike the kidneys of our Great
(11:17):
Lakes, so they filter out allthe bad stuff, but unfortunately
when you have something livingin our filter system, cannot
always be the greatest for them.
So that's a really big risk.
for them as well.
And then the last major threatto spotted gar is climate
change.
It's a bit of an unknown though,because they do seem pretty
(11:38):
tolerant of warmer waters andthey do seem to like warmer,
shallow water, we're not surehow well they'll do in climate
change.
And we're not sure, maybe therewill be new habitat that they
can go to, but can they reachit?
We don't really know.
so it's a bit of an unknownthere, but it is one of their
major threats as well.
Meredith (11:59):
Yeah.
I mean, climate change, I feellike for so many species, it's
this like looming unknown and.
Unfortunately, until we areexperiencing more of the
impacts, it's hard to predict,especially since, you know, our
models aren't perfect.
We don't have the full pictureuntil we're living it.
And I mean, hopefully ouractions will limit the impact
(12:21):
slightly, but you know, that'sdefinitely a, a big unknown for
a lot of species in Canada andNorth America.
For sure.
So your work, you're mostly inRondo area.
What's the focus of yourresearch?
Dominique Rumball (12:35):
Yeah.
So I.
I have, I'm doing a lot.
I'm, I'm very lucky to be, to beworking with, with spotted gar
and specifically the Rondo Bayspotted gar population.
But I'm kind of looking at a bitnarrower of a subject.
So I'm working with St.
Clair Region ConservationAuthority on a restoration
project there.
(12:56):
And really what we're studyingis to look at, you know, not
just spotted gar, but thecommunity response restoration.
So I am lucky enough to workwith St.
Clair Conservation, and I justwant to shout out Craig
Cotterson, who's the manager.
At the Conservation Authority,as well as the entire team
there, because they, they reallyhelped me out a lot.
(13:16):
They've given me a lot oftraining, a lot of guidance,
and, you know, we couldn't dothis work without them.
So I just really want to thankthem.
so, together, what we'reimplementing is something called
a Before After Control ImpactStudy.
this just basically in fancyterms just means that we're
taking a very accepted andstandardized approach to
(13:37):
monitoring restoration, wherewe're really just trying to
tease out the impacts of, youknow, time and the impacts of
space and just get at Howrestoration is actually
impacting spotted gar as well asthe fish community in this area,
and we do that by studying thearea before any action is taking
(13:57):
and studying, you know, areasaround the restoration site as
well as those are controls.
And then over time, we'llhopefully do the restoration
action and then measure after aswell.
so specifically for thisproject, we were trying to turn
what was, I'm sure many moonsago, a beautiful wetland.
(14:17):
It had now been turned into afarmland and we wanted to bring
it back to that, you know, towhat it once was.
And we of different threats tospotted gar.
(14:44):
So we kind of had to look atthis from an ecosystem approach
and consider some of thosethreats too.
I mentioned before that two ofthe invasive species that are
pretty impactful for spotted garare common carp and European
common reed or phragmites.
So in this property, we'retreating Phragmites that is
there because Phragmites willgrow in these really, really
(15:06):
dense stands.
And they basically just createhabitat that fish can't access.
So it's so dense that they can'taccess it.
So in this area, we're treatingthe Phragmites in the hope that
we can kind of create a bit morehabitat that's accessible to
fishes and turtles and all sortsof other animals that live in
the water and create more kindof habitat area.
(15:30):
Within within our project site.
And then on the other side ofthings, we also had to figure
out how to address kind of thecommon carp.
So common carp are really justbecause they do two things.
So they uproot a lot ofvegetation, which for the gar
wouldn't be great.
then they also create thisreally turbid water and it just
(15:52):
kind of means, you know, likecoffee water really, really,
it's got a lot of sedimentfloating around in it.
It's really murky.
And unfortunately, we do knowthat spotted gar have really
reduced with their eggs hatchingwhen the water is really turbid.
So it's something that we wantedto make sure we addressed.
So in this case, we're actuallygoing to install jail bar,
(16:16):
literally looks like jail bars,base exclusion at the front of
our newly created wetlandhabitat to make sure that the
really big carp that are reallydisruptful to these environments
can't actually enter.
And we hope that the spotted garwill be able to enter them.
And there's, there's manydifferent ways I can, if you'd
like, I can go through kind ofmy actual sampling and how, how
(16:39):
we got to this point looks like,if that's, if that's best.
Meredith (16:42):
Yeah, like, I mean, I think for aquatic species, you
know, how do we actually studythem?
Dominique Rumball (16:48):
Yeah.
this, this is what my studylooks like.
There's many different ways todo it.
But for this project inparticular every May and June,
we would head out to Rondo Bayand we'd set a bunch of fight
nets.
So if you don't know what a fikenet is, it's what we call a
passive gear type.
So it sits in the water and letsthe fishes come to it.
(17:09):
And so we know that fishesreally like to swim along
shores.
It's just something we knowabout their behavior and they
really like to follow, followshores and, and lines.
And so what we'll do is we'llset a fike net and it has this
long line that leads all the wayto the shore and we set it
perpendicular to shore.
as the fish swims, it'll hit thenet, and because they like to
(17:30):
follow all the lines and theshores, they just keep following
it right into our net.
that works out well for us.
As it swims into the back of thenet, or the quad end of the net,
there's little funnels that getsmaller and smaller, so it's
really hard for them to get backout.
So what we'll do is we'll setthese for about 24 hours and
then we'll pick them, and we'llsee not just what spotted gar we
can catch in there, but also,What other kinds of fishes that
(17:53):
are supporting that community wecan find in there as well.
So we do this at all sorts ofsites and at every site we take,
you know, things like waterquality, what kind of vegetation
is there, there's underwaterstructure there, how deep the
water is.
so at every site we set thesenets, we get this really good
idea of kind of a little microecosystem and what it looks
like.
(18:14):
And then we do that all aroundour different areas.
But that being said, we can onlycatch spotted gar that way.
so we do have to approachcatching the baby gar a little
bit different, our littlejuvenile gars.
so I have no clue who figuredthis out, hats off to them but
(18:34):
someone figured out thatjuvenile baby gar just like to
sit down.
Just below the surface of thewater and kind of float.
and so the best way to catchthem is actually just to, we
would go to a site, anchor ourboat.
And then we would just stare atthe water for, you know, 15
minutes, half an hour.
And sure enough, you would see alittle guard just float right
(18:57):
out from under, you know, a lilypad.
And you had to, you know, getyour a game on, make sure you're
feeling athletic and just takean aquarium net and scoop it out
the water.
that's how we catch the baby,baby guard, the juvenile guard.
Unfortunately you can't tell thedifference between long nose and
spotted gar.
So what we do at that size is wejust take a little fin clip,
(19:18):
They're totally okay.
They don't seem to mind it.
They swim away just fine.
and then months later, back inthe lab, we'll eventually
analyze that thin clip to figureout what kind of gar we actually
caught.
Meredith (19:30):
So we're using genetics from that fin clip to
figure that out.
Dominique Rumball (19:34):
Yes.
Yeah.
So we, we luckily have thiswhole, a bit complicated process
to figure out, but there is agene that we can test for.
That we basically can tell usit's a long nose or it's a
spotted.
Meredith (19:47):
Cool.
So it sounds like you spend alot of time on the water and in
wetlands.
Dominique Rumball (19:53):
I do, I spend a lot of time, I love the
wetlands.
Meredith (19:56):
Do you have a favorite story from the field or like
from when you've been out doingyour studies?
Both.
Dominique Rumball (20:03):
well, I do have a favorite story.
I do want to mention though, Ido feel like, for those who work
in the field, you kind of knowthis, but, Fieldwork is kind of
like, a little bit like Vegas.
Usually what, what happens therestays there.
So I did get permission to sharethis story.
But yeah, it is, there's alwayslots of fun stories in the
field.
You never know what to expect.
(20:25):
But for this story, I'll, I'llchoose to share.
It was the first year of myproject.
We had just gotten some brandnew fight nets and it was the
first week we were setting them.
So we're all excited.
Turtles were a big issue for us.
So we were trying out somedifferent things that we put on
the front of the net to makesure that the turtles weren't,
you know, getting in the net.
(20:46):
so, you know, we've got thisbrand new exclusion.
Brand new nets.
We set them in the water.
Meredith (20:51):
Both.
Both.
Silence.
Dominique Rumball (21:02):
No, Craig's a pretty strong guy.
Like, you know, training for anIronman.
I play rugby.
We're thinking here we are, likewe're two strong individuals.
What's going on?
Why can't, you know, we pullthis net into the boat.
enough, we start taking a lookand we can see that our turtle
exclusion on the one side of ournet is just gone.
Something has absolutely.
(21:22):
destroyed it.
And then we take a peek into thenet and all we see are many
little heads of snappingturtles.
So unfortunately we didn't havetoo many fish.
So we thought, well, maybe wecan just, you know, open the cod
end, open the back end, let themgo.
but because they have differentsized funnels in our nets,
(21:44):
unfortunately, they were allcaptured in the middle of the
net.
and unfortunately, at thismoment, this is when we realized
that unlike our old nets thathave a zipper to get turtles out
of that middle section, our newones did not.
Meredith (21:59):
No.
Okay.
Dominique Rumball (22:01):
we were like, Oh, what do we do?
So we decided to eventually getthe net into the bottom of the
boat.
Did have to call my supervisorand say, hi, sorry.
I just cut a hole, massive holein your brand new net, where the
zipper would have been.
and so we got it into the bottomof the boat and we've got, I
think it was about nine snappingturtles.
(22:22):
And one of them was, The largestone I've ever seen in my life.
so we're like, okay, I guesswe'll just try and, you know,
take one out at a time.
now at this time I had a veryirrational deathly fear of
staffing turtles.
So I was definitely not stickingmy hands in the net.
So it was definitely up to, tomy colleague Craig to do that.
(22:43):
But I was kind of holding somepaddles, trying to shield him.
from, you know, the heads of theother snapping turtles.
of course, you know, there werenine in there.
We did not have nearly enoughpaddles.
So sure enough, we're trying toget that first turtle out.
And one snaps and just grabsCraig's finger momentarily.
So things are very chaotic.
(23:04):
You know, trying to make sureCraig's okay at this point.
The turtles are in the bottom ofthe boat and some of them are
actually just starting to getmad and start exiting the net
themselves.
And so the biggest snappingturtle decided to start walking
in the bottom of the boattowards me.
So I panicked a little and Istepped up onto the bench of the
boat.
I was like, please stop comingtowards me.
(23:27):
and sure enough, my, again, veryirrational fear, this turtle
kept coming towards me and Ijust, I guess I thought it was
gonna, it was gonna get me andso I just fell right out of the
boat.
Meredith (23:36):
No.
Dominique Rumball (23:37):
into the wetlands.
So yeah, you know, it was, itwas a bit stressful.
We did eventually composeourselves.
We did safely and rather quicklyget the rest of them out of the
net.
And, you know, besides a prettysore finger and a bit of a wet
outfit to remember the day by.
We were, we were okay.
I do want to mention I am a bitbetter at handling snapping
(23:58):
turtles.
I wouldn't say without fear, butwith a bit more comfort now.
I don't think they'd force meout of the boat.
but you know, at the time it wasa pretty terrifying
Meredith (24:08):
I mean, you know, there's another species that
really still looks like adinosaur.
Dominique Rumball (24:13):
Absolutely.
Meredith (24:15):
understand there's maybe some sort of primal
reaction for dinosaur coming atyou.
I think that's a fair, I thinkmultiple people listening to
this would jump out of the boattoo.
Dominique Rumball (24:25):
I hope so.
I think it does go to show, youknow, you don't have to, you
don't have to be perfect ateverything in the field to get
into it, you know, with, withsome, with some willingness to
learn, some commitment to theprocess and, you know, a very
good mentor can overcome thesekinds of things.
Meredith (24:42):
And I mean, getting into this field is, is no joke.
I know some people who aredeathly afraid of snakes and
then the job they got wasmonitoring snakes and they're
like, well, this is how I getinto the field.
So I guess I'm facing my fears.
So.
We've talked a little bit thatyour research is looking at a
(25:05):
wetland restoration project andhow, I'm guessing you're trying
to see how successful theseactions are.
What are other actions beingtaken to, you know, protect and
support the spotted gar?
Is it mostly restorationactivities and research or, or
what else are people working on?
Dominique Rumball (25:25):
Yeah.
So this is where kind of, youknow, having a species listed
under the Species at Risk Act isquite helpful because they put a
lot of really good thingstogether.
And one of those things is kindof a recovery strategy that kind
of approaches how we help notjust spotted gar, but any other
species that's listed.
So there are three main areas ofaction that we consider when
(25:48):
we're looking at recoveringspotted gar.
So the first one is justmonitoring them.
So this is, you know, we want tokeep track of where they used to
be, where they are now we wantto make sure if we're seeing any
major changes in theirpopulation size, that we're, you
know, monitoring them oftenenough that we can detect that.
And then I mentioned before,there were some, you know, areas
(26:10):
we don't really know if they'rethere, or we've caught one
individual and we're not surewhy.
So it's important to kind ofalso sample those areas and
monitor those areas that.
We don't really know if they'rethere to see if anything
changes.
So monitoring is kind of thatfirst really big area.
And then the second one isresearch.
(26:30):
And this is kind of when you getinto more of the specifics about
the spotted gar life and, youknow, how they live.
And what's really important forspotted gar in particular is for
understanding how the threatsthat we talked about.
Are impacting, you know how theylive or their survival.
So when we when we say how howthey live because they are part
(26:52):
of such a complex and dynamicfood web and ecosystem, even
doing things that change theirbehavior can have massive
impacts.
And if everyone wants to see areally good example of that in a
terrestrial ecosystem, they canlook at the documentary how
wolves change rivers.
But basically, it's just, youknow, you do change, you remove
(27:12):
something or you change abehavior.
It can have a cascading effectand change an entire ecosystem.
So it's really important for usto understand how we're changing
the behavior and if we'rechanging, you know, the survival
of spotted gar.
so one of the ways we do that isspecifically looking at how
exotic species like common carpand common reed.
(27:34):
European common reed orphragmites impact them, and
sometimes even how us treatingsomething like phragmites or
European common reed mightimpact them.
And then as well, one of thereally cool things that we don't
know much about is, Why Longnoseand Spotted Gar have such
different distributions becauseLongnose Gar are kind of found
(27:55):
everywhere in Ontario, butSpotted Gar are only found along
the coast.
So understanding how theycoexist and why they don't kind
of existent like Gar do in therest of the rest of Ontario, at
least.
then lastly, like we want to beable to try, and as we talked
about earlier, predict theeffects of climate change.
So those are some of the really.
(28:17):
specific areas of research thatwe're looking into.
And then the last one is a bitintegrated within, you know,
research and what we're doingnow is just that, that
stewardship outreach and kind ofawareness piece of recovery.
so it's really important.
when we're trying to recover aspecies that we promote things
like stewardship and what'shappening now habitat
(28:38):
restoration.
And we get local individuals andlocal communities involved in
kind of taking care of andimproving not just coastal
wetlands, but you know, theareas that they're living in.
So another really cool way thatwe can Kind of give a little bit
of outreach and awareness isalso by talking to commercial
and recreational fishers, so wedon't, we don't think that, you
(29:01):
know, these fishing industrieshave a big impact on spotted
gar, but it is important that ifthey are catching spotted gar
that they can identify them.
what to do with them and alsokind of let people know so that
maybe these are new data pointsthat we have and we know more
about them.
so there are lots of differentways that, you know, people can
improve the health of theirwatersheds and, and just, help
(29:25):
more, give more information.
So that's kind of where thatlast, you know, stewardship
outreach and awareness piececomes into recovery.
Meredith (29:33):
Yeah, and if people are listening to this and
they're like, well, what actionscan I take to improve the health
of the watershed that I'm in,especially if you're around like
Erie, like, or if you could wavea magic wand and have people
change something that all livearound Lake Erie, like what
would you want them to do?
So, so, so,
Dominique Rumball (30:03):
that there are so many different ways that
we can help.
But I think the first is that wereally need to just repair our
relationship with nature andjust become reconnected with
nature.
I think a lot of us have becomedisconnected and, you know,
maybe we don't want to help, wedon't care.
And so there's just not enoughreason for it.
(30:25):
So I really think before we doconsider, you know, other types
of action, we should all justtake a moment Take some time and
just visit with nature andreconnect with it.
now that being said, I thinkeducation is one of the biggest
things that we do inconservation.
A lot of times when we helpspecies at risk, just making
(30:47):
sure that we do have and createand keep our ecosystems healthy.
when we have these healthyecosystems, we actually coexist
with nature a lot better.
So nature will provide us,especially coastal wetlands,
with a lot of really valuableand services.
And often times the way naturedoes their job and how cost
(31:09):
effective it is for nature to dothat.
to provide these services isjust incomparable to anything
that, you know, humans couldbuild or invent.
So at the end of the day, it'sreally important to learn about
our ecosystems, learn about ourspecies at risk, learn how they
support us and what functionsand, you know.
Services they provide, and thenin turn, we can figure out how
(31:31):
we can support them to achievemore of a better, you know,
balance and symbioticrelationship.
now that, that's a pretty genlike a, a general answer, so if
you don't know where to start toget your kind of education, I
would really recommend visitingyour local conservation
authority, and they can kind ofhelp
Meredith (31:51):
Yeah.
Hm.
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah.
And that's a wrap.
You have one minute.
Dominique Rumball (32:12):
today is just to make sure that you, you know,
share what you learn.
So we're really lucky to live inthis place where we interact
with people from, you know, allwalks of life, all backgrounds,
all different experiences.
And having a conversation aboutwhat, you know, you may learn
about your ecosystem is just agreat way to share your
knowledge, but also to get adifferent perspective.
(32:33):
and maybe just without knowingit kind of collectively come
together and even start problemsolving for some of the issues
that we face.
Meredith (32:41):
I love that because truly the individual impact, I
mean, it's great, but it'sreally the collective impact.
And the only reason we're goingto, you know, reach a community
or collective is by is throughrelationships and chatting.
So I think that's a reallyimportant piece.
And when people are having theseconversations, I What sort of
(33:02):
fun facts about the spotted garshould they sprinkle in because
I'm a sucker for a fun fact andsometimes, you know, a good
conversation, like, and a funfact thrown in there gets people
excited.
Dominique Rumball (33:15):
Yeah.
I just think that they're,they're so rare.
They're only found in Lake Erieis a great fun fact.
I do think that their scales aremade of bone is just so awesome.
The other one that I would saythat I haven't, I mean, I could
have talked about it, but Ihaven't yet is that believe it
or not spotted gar are airbreathers.
So yes, they live in the waterand that's their home.
(33:38):
And they can get all the oxygenthey need from the water.
But when.
The water isn't providing enoughoxygen.
They actually just stick theirlittle snouts out of the water
and gulp air.
And they have kind of like amodified lung and they can
basically just take oxygen fromthe air as well.
so I think that's a really,really cool thing and, and I've
seen it from, you know, the babygars that are smaller than my
(34:00):
hand to the massive, you know,70 centimeter long adults.
And they all just do thisbeautiful air gulp and just swim
away.
So I think that's one of thepretty cool fun facts.
Meredith (34:11):
That is a very cool fun fact and probably helps you
when you're studying them.
If you have them out of thewater on occasion.
Dominique Rumball (34:18):
Yes, yeah, exactly.
I mean, we try and limit, welimit as much as we can how much
they are out of the water, butyes, they can ergo, which is,
which is a bit nice.
Meredith (34:28):
Awesome.
Well, we've talked a lot aboutthe spotted gar and obviously a
very cool, but very endangeredfish.
But I'd like to know a littlebit, just quickly, a little bit
more about you and how you evengot involved working with
spotted gar and how you got intoresearch.
Dominique Rumball (34:46):
Yeah, so this is, this is a pretty good
question.
And it's pretty funny I findbecause, know, if I thought
about this five years ago andthought, Oh, where will I be in
five years?
This is, this is definitely notit.
But I'm so glad that it is.
So it kind of all started in myundergrad at Queen's University.
I took a two week fisheriesfield course.
(35:06):
absolutely loved it.
I will say I was awful athandling you know, the fish and
the fishes and everything, butit was a really good time.
I learned a lot.
It was fantastic.
So when I kind of started tothink about, you know, graduate
school and looking at differentmaster's program, I was drawn to
one lab in particular.
And this is one of my, one of mysupervisors, Dr.
(35:27):
Nicholas.
And it's out of the Universityof Toronto.
So this lab largely focuses onfreshwater conservation, and I
was really excited.
So I kind of, you know, amessage out to
Meredith (35:37):
Okay.
Dominique Rumball (35:57):
in the sense that it had a very cool culture.
So it was one of the only labswhen I was doing a lot of my
research at different schoolsand even within, within U of T
that had a diversity, equity andinclusion statement on its
website.
and after kind of being part ofthe lab and meeting everyone
it's something that I saw, youknow, diversity was not just
embraced.
It was really celebrated there.
(36:18):
And so I knew that I was goingto like the research and just
having that culture of a lab.
I thought this is the rightplace for me to be.
so sure enough.
I ended up joining the lab and,you know, within a few weeks of
being out on the week sorry, outon the water.
I was actually getting trainedby one of my colleagues,
Jennifer.
like chub sucker.
And within those first couple ofweeks, I just kind of knew that
(36:40):
I had found, you know, mypassion and that this is what,
this is what I wanted to do fora really long time.
I look back now though, and Ithink how it's kind of funny
that I never realized this iswhat I wanted to do.
As a kid, you know, my familyused to joke and they call me a
fish or a mermaid, you know,tell me I had gills because I
would never get out of thewater.
(37:01):
You know, I'd be in my grandma'sswimming pool or up at the
cottage.
I'd just throw a pair of goggleson and, you know, stare at the
underwater world that was justunfolding.
And it was all so fascinating tome.
I think now how water's kind of,you know, it's a touchstone for
me when things are going well inlife, when things aren't going
so well.
like I just have such a deepconnection with it.
(37:22):
I'll just go and visit thewater.
I'll stand in the water.
I'll feel the waves and thingsjust seem better.
so no matter you know whatspecies I do work on or what
what body of water I really justdo feel privileged to be able
to, you know, hopefully be agood steward to the land and,
know, try and reconnect peopleback to the beautiful waters
(37:43):
that we have, because I now seethat, you know, this is where I
was meant to be.
It just took me some time tofigure it out.
Meredith (37:50):
Yeah, I love that you brought up, you know, lab
culture, because that can bealmost as important as the
research that you're doing.
And as you know, people whoobviously know how important
biodiversity is sometimes are, Ipersonally think that our field
has a long way to go insupporting diversity within the
(38:13):
field.
So it's awesome to hear thatthere are labs that are putting
that at the forefront of theirmission.
and and I, I totally agree withyou too, that, you know, in
Canada, but especially Ontarioand North America, lakes and
water are.
Such a part of our identity,like the great lakes, even
growing up in Toronto, you know,you're on Lake Ontario, it's
(38:35):
this huge body of water.
And you kind of just think,well, this is what lakes are.
And then you go other places andyou're like, Oh no, like this is
a really special, unique thingto, to home.
And it really does help you likereconnect with, with where
you're from.
And I love being by the watertoo.
So.
As fellow mermaids, I, I totallyunderstand.
Dominique Rumball (38:56):
love it.
Meredith (38:57):
So, so last question for you, and it might be the
toughest one yet, but we'veheard about your restoration
project and your research, butlike, what, what are the next
steps?
What are you, what are youhoping for, for the future?
Dominique Rumball (39:12):
Yeah, so that's a really great question.
In the short term, and somethingI didn't.
Get too into when I was talkingabout my project I am continuing
on with this project for thenext, hopefully three years.
So we have a lot of, you know,spotted guard that we've also
tagged with a different,different types of tags.
(39:32):
And because we've tagged them,I'm really, really excited to
continue monitoring this projectand see if once the restoration
is You know, completed, we'll beable to track where they go.
And if they come in and out ofthe wetland that we create and
how long they spend in there, soI'm, I'm really excited for the
next phase of my research andhopefully again, that'll, you
(39:54):
know, happen over the next twoor three years for next steps.
And in my career, I mean, I'm inyear two of five of my PhD.
So luckily I do have some timeto figure out what exactly I
want to do, but I really dothink.
Working in wetlands is somethingthat's really important.
And I do think, you know,studying spotted gar is really
important as well.
(40:14):
aren't too many people whoactually do study them.
So, quick shout out to BillGlass, who is one of the only
who's, you know, really pulled alot of information.
During his doctoral work spottedcar.
So, you know, his research iskind of what we know about
spotted guard in the area.
There isn't too much elsebesides a few studies here and
(40:37):
there.
So it's really just a privilegeto be able to continue studying
them because I think they, youknow, they deserve some
recognition, they deserve somelove.
So hopefully we can get them toa place that, we can, we can
actually make meaningful changefor them.
and then for wetlands, they arejust so important, so I really
hope I can continue working inthem.
They're, they're a bit morechallenging, I think, in some
(40:59):
ways but I really do think thatthey're, they're just such an
important part of our ecosystemthat we really need to figure
out how to conserve the ones wehave left and hopefully how to
restore some.
Back to, you know, what theyused to be.
Meredith (41:13):
Great answer.
And also, I guess I lied becausenow I have another question for
you.
And this is the danger of doinga podcast with me.
I might never let you leave.
So are you hoping with thesetagged individuals to answer the
question of what theseintermittent.
And I guess, you know, juvenilesor teenagers, intermediate fish
are doing and what they looklike.
(41:33):
Are you hoping to find one ofthose elusive teenagers?
Dominique Rumball (41:37):
So unfortunately we can only tag
the really big gar.
Yeah, so, you know, tagging is,this is all very, this is all
very stressful for, for spottedgar, even just, you know,
putting them in a net andhandling them, it's a very, you
know, we're taking them out oftheir home in a very unfamiliar
environment.
You know, we're handling them.
This is very stressful.
Some fish will die from handlingstress.
(42:00):
So.
know, it's really importantjust, you know, to make sure
that we're actually handling theones that are big enough to
survive.
And so we're only tagging theones that are big enough to
survive.
We've had really good successrate with it so far.
So unfortunately, most of theseare past that stage.
I will share one little successstory though.
(42:20):
We did actually capture ajuvenile so in that teenager
life stage this past year whilesampling.
And we're, we're still waitingon the analysis, the genetic
analysis.
We took a fin clip just to be onthe safe side.
But based on, kind of, you canlook at their snout
measurements, we do believe itwas a spotted guard juvenile.
So, they are there.
(42:41):
Whether we can find them or notis a different story altogether.
But, the last thing I will sayabout this is, I do have my own
hypothesis why we struggle tofind them.
And that's because they justgrow so fast that I don't think
we we capture them in that lifestage very often.
So we're at the edge of theirpopulation here in Canada, and
(43:03):
edge populations have been shownto grow much faster.
And in the States, they actuallysaid that their gar could grow
over 30 centimeters long beforethe winter.
So I suspect maybe that's what'shappening is they're just
growing very fast, but you know,you would hope that we would
catch A few of them here andthere but it still remains a
(43:24):
mystery to me.
Meredith (43:26):
Maybe we just need to make these fish more abundant so
that we have a better shot ofcatching some teenagers.
Dominique Rumball (43:33):
Exactly.
That would be the dream.
Meredith (43:36):
That's a wrap on the Spotted Gar.
A massive thank you to DominiqueRumble for taking the time to
share her research with us.
And here's to a follow upepisode when she's completed the
restoration project.
And if you love this episode,please subscribe and leave us a
review.
It helps rarefied reach morepeople who care about our
planet's rarest creatures.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram at rarefied.
(43:58):
pod and sign up for ournewsletter on our website for
updates, behind the scenes.
And sneak peeks at upcomingepisodes.
Next time, we'll be leaving thecoast of the Great Lakes behind,
but we won't go too far.
We're going to explore theforests of Southern Ontario in
search of a rare and beautifulplant.
You won't want to miss it.
So until next time, get outthere and explore the wild
(44:20):
because every species has astory, and every one of us can
make a difference.
Thanks for listening, and untilnext time, happy trails!
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