November 11, 2024 • 55 mins
Katie Dale, advocate and author, joins us on Recovery Diaries In Depth to share her powerful journey through mental health challenges and advocacy. Known for her poignant essay "Finding My Faith Despite Losing My Mind," Katie opens up about her experiences since 2017, including her role as a case manager at a nonprofit in Missouri. She discusses the profound connections she has built with individuals facing hallucinations, underscoring the importance of trust and empathy in her work. Now residing in Germany, Katie continues to explore new life chapters, emphasizing recovery's ongoing nature and the transformative power of embracing change.
Our conversation with Katie delves into the profound intersection of faith and mental health, particularly through her experience of losing a child at the onset of COVID-19. This life-altering event prompted deep reflections on spirituality and personal development, highlighting the necessity of evolving one's narrative. We discuss the challenges of balancing personal stories with future possibilities, and the indispensable role of medication and therapy in managing conditions like bipolar disorder. Katie's insights provide a compelling reminder of life's unpredictability and the vital importance of gratitude in the face of uncertainty.
Reflecting on her journey, Katie shares the lessons she wishes she could impart to her younger self, especially the importance of perseverance and extending compassion. We explore the journey toward being less judgmental, understanding others’ beliefs, and fostering empathy in our communities. As we envision a hopeful future, there’s a call for truth and empathy to spread like wildfire, contrasting with the prevailing societal divisions. Through the metaphor of an iceberg, Katie encourages us to see beyond the surface of people's struggles, fostering greater compassion in our daily interactions.
https://katierdale.com/
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Ggabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Very happy to have you here.
I'm so excited to have ourguest, katie R Dale, who wrote
an essay for us in around 2017called Finding my Faith Despite
Losing my Mind, katie is anamazing advocate and a writer.
(00:25):
She maintains a blog about herdisorder on faith at
katierdalecom.
She's a former behavioralpatient and case manager with
unique firsthand experience withthe mental health care system
and the symptoms of mentalillness from a faith-based
perspective.
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
(00:45):
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
(01:05):
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
(01:26):
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
(01:51):
Katie Dale, thank you so muchfor being here on Recovery
Diaries In Depth.
It is a delight to see you andhave you here as a guest.
Katie Dale (01:56):
I'm so just excited to be here.
It's amazing to be with youguys.
I didn't have any idea that youguys would reach out.
This is exciting for me.
Gabe Nathan (02:08):
Well, you know, the loveliest thing about this
podcast is it gives me anopportunity to reflect.
So I've been involved withRecovery Diaries since 2014.
And the whole idea behind thisshow is looking back and looking
back into our past essaycontributors or people we've
(02:30):
made films about, and beingcurious about learning more
about these human beings.
Right, because we get thisthing, we get this essay from
you and it's a snapshot of youat a particular time in your
life and that's it, right.
It's kind of like watching amovie.
(02:50):
You can pop the movie and itmight have been made 30 years
ago and it never changes.
Um, but the actors who were init change and they grow older or
they pass away or whatever.
Um, but you're always like, wow, wow, what's different about
them now?
And that's the whole idea hereis bringing people back and
checking in with them and seeingwhat's stayed the same, what's
(03:15):
different?
Who are you now?
Where are you now?
So, like hi, who are you nowand where are you now?
I mean, you're in Germany right?
That's where you are physically.
Katie Dale (03:30):
Yeah, we are.
He's stationed at Ramstein, myhusband, so we are at just a
beautiful location in themountains, like a little farm
village.
It's really small and quiet,but it's surreal.
Like every day at 6 pm thechimes from the church just over
(03:53):
the hill are chiming and it'slike wow, and every morning too
they wake me up.
So it's like living in a kindof a fantasy of like this is
real, but yeah, it doesn't getold at this point it hasn't so
far, so it's been really reallycool.
Gabe Nathan (04:16):
Wow, a little bit different from Florida huh?
Katie Dale (04:19):
Yeah, a lot, oh g ood ness, yes.
Gabe Nathan (04:22):
So can you take us back to Florida, take us back to
2017, to where you were.
What was going on in your lifeat around the time that we
connected to work on your essay?
Katie Dale (04:41):
Actually I think I was in Missouri at that time
Gabe Nathan (04:44):
Okay.
Katie Dale (04:45):
Yeah, we had just been to um, he got stationed
over at Whiteman.
Then I think we just got thereand I had gotten picked up as a
kind of a social work positionat a nonprofit and I was
(05:06):
starting to work there when yep,when you guys reached out to me
about confirming the story wasgoing and everything.
So it was really another likechapter was opening and I
started that job and reallyloved it, fell in love with that
work because I had been anactivities director in prior
positions in a residential likenursing home type setup before
(05:31):
that and that was well, that wasa good job for me.
I loved the social work.
I really.
It really fit me for mypersonality, my background, my
experience clinically and it wasa very good eye-opening.
It really fit me for mypersonality, my background, my
experience clinically and it wasa very good eye-opening.
(05:52):
I could tell when somebody wasstruggling with a hallucination
and my heart went out to themwhen I was talking with them and
it's just there's nothing likeit when you and somebody else,
when you're working withsomebody and you're like you
know that empathy comes out andyou're able to connect with that
person.
It really gives you thatrapport to work with them and
(06:13):
for them to trust you as theircaseworker.
Gabe Nathan (06:49):
It was a very influential kind of work that on
this website and with your fullname attached and you know,
going into some descriptions ofbeing very symptomatic in terms
of bipolar disorder.
Did that give you pause at all?
What was that experience likefor you thinking about?
(07:09):
You know, do I want to do this,do I not want to do this?
What are some of the potentialconsequences?
Katie Dale (07:15):
Yeah, you know, actually didn't cross my mind.
I didn't flinch because that'swho I am, is like you see what
you get.
And I was writing the book, thememoir that I mentioned in the
bio, and I was already workingon that.
I'm like, yeah, this is mytestimony and this is who I am.
I did, you know, since then,have grown in certain you know,
(07:40):
nuances of like.
Well, I don't identify withbipolar to the degree that you
know I'm going to go around LikeI changed my since changed my
blog name, I received BipolarBrave, and now I'm like, eh, I
kind of I made reservationssince putting my story out there
(08:01):
.
I know even now that I want topublish more books and write
more and it's like, oh, I needto be strategic because having
my memoir published but deliverme from crazy, you know that
being the title it's like I wasjust at a craft fair, like sales
show, last weekend and peoplewere looking at my book and I'm
like that's really polarizing.
(08:23):
I'm thinking to myself likecrazy, and I could just see them
looking at the word crazy.
So, yeah, I've definitely likegrown since then and realized,
wow, you know, I was all outabout it, but there is wisdom to
approaching people who aren'tas familiar which many people
(08:45):
aren't and the general publicabout these types of things,
because it's not just delicate,it's very nuanced, there's so
much to it.
So I think I've grown since wehad my story published on your
site and since my book waspublished.
Gabe Nathan (09:03):
So, yeah, so I want to talk about that a little bit
more, because I'm so interestedin the ways in which people
change and the ways in whichthoughts and feelings and
perspectives and the way inwhich we present ourselves to
(09:23):
the world changes as we getolder, and also in the sense
that there's room at the tablefor lots of different ways to
talk about things like mentalhealth, like mental illness.
I think there's room at thetable for people who want to be
(09:43):
all out there and big and boldand in your face, and I think
there's also room at the tablefor people who want to be more
nuanced, to use your word, abouthow they approach difficult
topics or how they talk aboutthemselves.
And can you just talk to me alittle bit about your evolution,
(10:06):
I guess in the last I don'tknow six, seven years, about how
you think about yourself andhow you put yourself out there?
Katie Dale (10:14):
Yeah, that's a good question, because I haven't
really thought that through.
Gabe Nathan (10:19):
That's okay, I'm an external processor, exactly
yeah.
Let's do it.
Katie Dale (10:23):
Yeah.
So I guess you know, havingbeen through a lot of therapy
and going back to therapy, so welost our son, my firstborn, in
2020, right at the onset ofCOVID.
That was like.
Gabe Nathan (10:43):
Katie, I'm so sorry , I had no idea.
Katie Dale (10:47):
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah, thanks.
I think that was a differentkind of difficult and it grew me
as a I felt more like anobserver than I was actually
going through something, cause,yeah, it was just um a big
(11:13):
unexpected thing and I kind oftook a lot of lessons from that,
of lessons from that.
So, um, I guess one of thelessons that I learned was that
stuff like that, like I don'tknow now I'm still thinking
(11:35):
about it because I'm sharing itand I'm thinking like that hits
like a ton of bricks sometimeswhen you just drop a bomb.
That hits like a ton of brickssometimes when you just drop a
bomb right, and it's like, ohman, you must have felt this,
this and this, or oh, so sorryfor you.
And oh, I can't imagine this.
And it's like gosh, I wish Ihad written my book and I was
(11:58):
just thinking about this theother day because I just
published my book right beforehe was born and passed, and I
was like, I think in the otherday, if I just come out and like
told people what was going onmore like in the book and just
explained it and like broke itdown for them instead of going
(12:19):
into the immersive experience ofwhat I went through, of
experience of what I wentthrough and if I'd process it
more for the reader and likeit's just so hard to know some
still for me what to say andwhat not to say.
I'm still learning.
I just I feel like it is.
It can get to be a little bitmuch when I'm learning and
(12:44):
growing in other areas and I'mnot as focused on the experience
side of things.
So I've been through, you know,the casework position and saw,
you know how I could help peoplein these, in similar situations
, and then I went through, lostmy son and went through some
other things and just turmoil.
But you know growth andmaturity and years.
(13:06):
And now I'm, I'm onto differentthings.
I'm pivoting in the sense of,like I don't want it to be all
about the experience, theexperience, the experience.
I'd rather be.
I'm not very much aboutexperiences as a person, but I'm
I'm leaning into what's next,like what's the future have, and
(13:30):
for me I sense a deep callingto speak to that, a different, a
totally different avenue orarena of God and how he speaks
to our hearts through his spirit, which is a totally different
segment, a totally differentpopulation.
But like I just I know there'sa lot of overlap there too.
(13:51):
I've grown as a person in mywalk with Christ and that has
just like given me that futureforward vision and so I'm also
helping other organizations andnonprofits with that kind of
tying in the faith and themental health pieces.
But yeah, I just there's littlelittle things that I would
(14:16):
change about the book or aboutlike how I used to be so out and
about about it.
But now I'm growing as a person.
I'm looking forward to the nextbook I'm writing and the
potential to reach people about.
Well, if you're, you knowsomebody who's had psychosis and
you thought you heard from God,then what's the difference
(14:37):
between hearing from God fromyour heart than hearing him in
your head?
So I really want to get intothat.
That's my kind of him in yourhead.
So I really want to get intothat.
That's my kind of um sweet spot.
Where I'm at right now is likethat's what I'm working on,
that's where I'm living, that'sthe space I'm in well, it's,
it's and I guess this is as Iwas talking to you before.
Gabe Nathan (15:00):
You know, we started recording like this is
why we're doing this show,because of the evolution of
human beings and because of howmany things change and because
of what life throws at us.
You know, we have no ideawhat's around the corner and we
(15:21):
think we have all of thiscontrol and we think we have all
of this, all of these plans,and it's all bullshit.
You know, we just it really is.
And you know, I was even.
I was sitting with my wife andwe were planning out meals, like
for the week, because we'regoing food shopping later today.
We have no idea what'shappening this week, but even
(15:42):
something as simple as likemaking that food list, you think
you're like controlling andmapping out this week, but even
something as simple as likemaking that food list, you think
you're like controlling andmapping out the week, but it can
all go out the window at anymoment.
Katie Dale (15:57):
Go ahead, yeah, so as you were talking about that.
It's like I have been on thesame dosage of the medicines I'm
taking since 2012.
For what was that 12 years, andI haven't changed the dosage in
that time.
Really, I think maybe came offone of the meds and I've been on
two meds since then, Once a day, every day, taking my meds.
(16:20):
Right, it keeps the symptomsaway.
I'm thriving.
And then I'm like how long isthis going to last?
Because I know meditationsdon't always indefinitely work
(16:44):
and so, as much as they're stillworking and as much as I feel
stable, I have been noticinglike some twitching on my face
and I'm like, oh, I hope that'snot td tardive dyskinesia yeah
yeah, and that would be like notfun.
Gabe Nathan (16:57):
But no, td is not fun.
Katie Dale (17:00):
No I'll just worry about that when I, if I, if I
get to that point.
So I'm just, but yeah, likestuff like that and I could be
back in the hospital for all weknow, like in another few years.
Who knows, Heaven forbid.
But you know, it's just it's.
You don't know what's going tobe around the bend.
(17:21):
And I'm just so grateful that myfaith has been like that
underpinning of my life, becauseever since I was a little girl,
growing up in church and goingto youth camps and learning
about Jesus, and how much thathas impacted me and that seed of
faith has grown through me.
Um, and then going through life, it's like, whenever it hits
(17:48):
the road, you, you, you got toturn to somebody, like, and if
God's the only one who's in yourhead, who knows what's going on
in your head, is like you know,like you better have God.
Um, it's, it's hard to be aloneon that kind of road,
especially with bipolar.
I don't know how, um, I, I, Idon't like saying I don't know
how people do it without God,but I, like you know, I
acknowledge that like, people doget through without him.
Gabe Nathan (18:22):
But for me I don't know if the label is, but I have
zero religious interest orbeliefs or whatever, and I love
talking to all different kindsof people and I love hearing
from you and I think it'sfascinating how you approach
your relationship with yourmental health and your
(18:43):
relationship with yourself andyour relationship with God and
your relationship with medicaltreatment, and you talk about
this in your essay a bit.
But can you talk a little bitnow about?
Okay?
We got a comment and I'm kindof all over the place.
(19:04):
We got a comment on a YouTube ona film that we made a couple
years ago about a pianist whostruggles with anxiety disorder,
performance-related anxiety,and he's a concert pianist, like
at a very, very high level andsomeone wrote a comment like you
know something to the effect ofas soon as this individual
(19:28):
realizes that Jesus is the onlyway, you know they're not going
to get better.
It was something like that andthat that's the only answer is
giving yourself over to Jesus,and like that, this guy is
(19:48):
always going to be strugglinguntil that happens.
And I was thinking actuallyabout you because I knew that
this interview was coming up andI was like, well, here's
someone who has very strongfaith and a very loving and
tested loving and testedrelationship with faith, but is
(20:11):
also on medication, and I justwant to hear from you about that
.
I don't know if it's duality,but about that ability to kind
of do both or have both do bothor have both.
Katie Dale (20:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, um, definitely um,
something I'm passionate about,you know, because, um, there's
just different things that youknow, different points in my
life where, like before I gotsick, you know, I was really
wanting to know is God real?
And I had not known for sure.
Like I accepted the Lord Jesusinto my heart at five years old.
(20:54):
But you know what?
Like, what does that mean?
Like I felt like he was with me, I felt forgiven of my sins, I
felt the weight lifted, but thatwas a five-year-old perspective
.
I felt forgiven of my sins.
I felt weight lifted, but thatwas a five-year-old perspective,
and when I was 15, I was still.
You know, prove to me thatyou're real.
You know, I was at that placewhere I'm like you know, how do
I know?
This is all what they say it is.
(21:16):
So I went to the Gospel of Johnand read the Bible, which is
god's inspired word.
Like um john 14, 6, where hesays you know the, the way to
god, the father.
Um, there is no other wayexcept through me.
(21:37):
I'm the way, the truth and life.
So that truth piece, though,really really seemed to ground
me, because when Jesus claimshe's the truth, that's a big
statement.
So, with that seed planted,going through the following year
, not realizing I was going toget sick, with the onset of the
(21:58):
bipolar symptoms, I walked intothat new environment that year
with the big change and thetriggering, triggering the
symptoms, and I'm like, well,this sucks, like this is a
Christian school and going to,you know change from public to
private.
They call themselves christians, but like where's god?
(22:18):
Like this doesn't make sense,they're not being very christian
to me, or like you know they,they didn't seem to be showing
jesus to me.
So, um, the depression set inand I was just like this is a
doubt filled my mind.
I'm like how can, how can I bea Christian and have Jesus in my
heart and I'm feeling likenothing, like the apathy and all
(22:41):
the chemical imbalance like oflike that zero flat line with
the emotions, and yet God livesin my heart, like that doesn't
add up, like there's somethingoff.
So I went through, you know,that dramatic and traumatic
experience with the psychosisand all that in the hospital,
(23:03):
and so all that to say it'sthose hard, hard times was when
I actually did feel like once Iwas my attitude adjusted to be
like no, like God's still here.
I just have to be still andlike recognize him and
(23:27):
spiritually, to turn my eyesspiritually to Jesus and like
believe him, what he's tellingme, that he's with me and he's
faithful, what he's telling methat he's with me, that he's
faithful, that he's the Lord,that he's my good shepherd, that
he's my great physician.
All this and it's not a work Ido, like it's not in my strength
, that I'm pulling myself up bymy bootstraps, like it's
(23:48):
definitely like justacknowledging him and believing
and calling on him on his name.
He did the rest, like he showedup, I felt his presence in the
hospital.
He got me on the right meds.
After that, the doctors helped.
He worked through the doctorsand the science and the
pharmaceuticals.
I got back on the meds that Ineeded.
I went to good therapists anddid the work, put in some effort
(24:13):
with therapy, psychotherapy,talk therapy but he provided all
those avenues.
He put those people in my path.
He answered my prayers for thathealing that I wanted so
desperately and so to me, havingthat experience gave me that
backbone of who I am as a person.
(24:34):
Gave me that backbone of who Iam as a person that you could
never tell me or convince meotherwise that God isn't real,
that Jesus isn't alive, becauseI've already seen his answer to
my prayers, specifically for thehealing through the medicine
and the grace of that.
Now, when people say, like youwere saying, that the guy was
(24:58):
suffering with anxiety, if hehad Jesus he wouldn't suffer, I
am compelled to and I just wrotea blog post about it on my blog
there at katierdalecom likethere's so too much accusation
(25:21):
and too many assumptions in thechurch that start from
leadership about sin and anxietybeing a sin and equating
anxiety as a sin is is where I Ihave to kind of deviate,
because that's um, definitelythere's a difference between
worrying and having like anuncontrollable, like condition.
Gabe Nathan (25:42):
A disorder, yeah.
Katie Dale (25:43):
Yeah, so where that comes in, it's like I understand
, you know it's preached fromthe pulpit and it's very oh,
mental illness is a myth in alot of circles.
Mental illness is a myth in alot of circles.
But you know, that's why I'mstill advocating and speaking to
churches and the Christiancommunity that there's just, you
(26:08):
know, no excuse for condemningpeople who are suffering from a
no-fault condition.
So I feel for those people whoare being condemned and blamed
for their illnesses.
It's just something I'm awareof every day when I work with
(26:31):
organizations like NationalShattering Silence Coalition and
Delight and Disorder Ministries.
And we're all in those circlesaware that, like anosognosia and
the lack of insight is a hugepiece, and yet I struggle with
(26:53):
speaking to and communicatingthis.
But I got to do this some morebecause I don't think a lot of
the church gets it.
But that piece of anastomosisis still a barrier for the
church, not aware.
It's like they aren't awarethat people aren't aware or have
the insight.
(27:14):
So yeah, it gets prettyfrustrating for sure.
Gabe Nathan (27:19):
And I'm so glad that you wanted to talk about
this because I feel like thereare so many.
There's this statistic fromNAMI that says the average
length of time between onset ofsymptoms and a person seeking
help treatment is 11 years.
That's just the average right.
(27:41):
And when I think about that andI think about all the myriad
reasons why someone might notwant to seek help among those, I
think about people who arereligious, who may go.
You know, if I talk to my faithleader or if I reveal that I'm
(28:05):
struggling with, I will beshunned.
I will not be embraced in thisatmosphere of all are welcome or
, you know, everyone is welcomehere and all of that stuff.
It is conditional love.
It's not for many.
It's not the unconditional lovethat is preached.
(28:29):
It's well if you fall into linewith A how we think about
marriage, or how we think aboutsexuality, or if you don't have,
you know, x, y and z disorder,yes, we will embrace you and
such and such.
But if you fall out of step,then there's going to be a
problem, or at least that can becertain people's perception,
(28:50):
and I feel like that can be abarrier to seeking help and I
feel like lives can be lost thatway.
And that gets us into the wholeother thing about.
Well, suicide is a sin and theperception that way.
I remember I was doing asuicide awareness event at a
(29:11):
Catholic college and a very,very old nun was in tears after
the event and I came up to herto talk to her and she said you
know, I lost my brother tosuicide 52 years ago and we just
have to stop this.
We have to stop telling peoplethat they're going to hell or
(29:36):
that this is a sin.
And I look at people like youas you know, you're kind of how
change happens.
People like you who are walkingthe walk and talking the talk
and living with mental healthchallenges and also living a
(29:57):
life of faith and being openabout that and trying to change
how that's viewed within thecontext of faith.
That's how change happens, Ithink.
So I just want to recognizethat.
Katie Dale (30:12):
Yeah, thanks, yeah, I think there is good efforts
going on.
Yeah, thanks, yeah, I thinkthere is good efforts going on.
(30:40):
Fresh Hope for Mental Health isan organization that is very
instrumental.
They have their Hope MadeStrong out of Canada with Laura
Howe, and there is Thrive andCultivate.
That's another churchleadership mental health summit
online and there are people thatget it and they're doing the
work to you know, send thatmessage.
(31:04):
But even while that's happening,like yeah, there's the least of
these two that are sufferingand not getting the help they
need and like what do we do then?
So I think I always rememberanosognosia, because that is
usually why we resist thetreatment if we have a mood
disorder.
So I always want people to beaware of that because it's not
(31:26):
well-known, it's not commonknowledge, and bringing that up
also for the church's sake, likefor the church's sake, like
that's your, like mission, isyour mission field should be
like the least of these, likejesus cared for and giving them
a cup of water, giving them,visiting them in prison, like
(31:48):
going to the hospital forsomebody who doesn't realize
they're sick is your least ofthese and that's how you, I feel
like we need to really notforget, and I hope that's my
hope is that the work and theeffort and advocacy I feel
(32:08):
called to go in and I reallytruly believe Jesus is leading
the way in and hope that thechurch follows.
Gabe Nathan (32:19):
Well, you've been doing the work for a long time,
and I can't think of a nicer wayto lead into the essay that you
wrote for us a number of yearsago now.
It is called Finding my FaithDespite Losing my Mind, and I
would love it if you would readthis aloud for us.
Katie Dale (32:40):
That would be great.
I can do that, okay.
At 24, I was hitting the peakof my young adult life.
I was a college grad, enjoyingmarriage and working my dream
job as a graphic designer for asmall business in sunny central
Florida.
Yes, I was living with bipolar1, diagnosed at the tender age
(33:00):
of 16, but I had come a longways from my three-week stay in
the juvenile psych ward.
The unpredictability of thatmemorable stay blindsided me.
No one explained to me howtraumatic and scarring this
experience would be for me andhow it would shape my future.
I was confused, paranoid, andmy arms seemed to always reach
(33:22):
forward in a stiff, zombie-likeposture.
But I came around and believed,through a daily ritual of
taking my prescribed medication,that I was healed.
I also believed, as a committedChristian, that my stable
mental health was a result ofanswered prayers and claimed
Bible verses.
In the spring of 2012, myhusband and I purchased our
(33:42):
first house and moved in,praising God that we were young,
first-time homeowners with abeautiful property all of our
own.
The move put me in a great mood.
So great, in fact, that Idecided it was time to come off
my medications.
So great, in fact, that Idecided it was time to come off
my medications.
The sermons from a Southernfaithward televangelist to whom
I listened at the time confirmedmy aspirations for a whole,
(34:03):
healthy mind.
He prided his ministry on thepremise that healing was only
dependent on the faith insideoneself.
He never communicatedexplicitly that I go off my
medication or address those withmental illness, but to me that
didn't seem to matter.
All that was required to behealed Enough faith.
As my husband and I discussedmy plans to taper off my
(34:25):
medication, he encouraged me towait until his month-long trip
to Mongolia.
That July was over.
The call to healing throughfaith was too loud to ignore.
Instead, against mypsychiatrist's warning, I
tapered off the medicine In myhusband's absence.
I morphed into a full-blownmanic case.
My symptoms from eight yearsbefore returned, although
(34:48):
moments and days of supremeecstasy.
The world of bipolar wasalluring and magical Boundless
energy, creative ideas,heightened mood, exaggerated
optimism and self-confidence.
Who wouldn't want to be bipolar?
(35:08):
Life was like a movie, andevery song I sang or heard was
part of the soundtrack.
But then the paranoia ensued,stopping me in my tracks of
euphoric ecstasy, inferring inmy conscience that the FBI was
bugging the house, overshadowingmy rational mind.
After a handful of exasperatingonline chats with my husband,
(35:29):
he returned home to find a manicand maniacal wife.
We had argument after argument,so I sought help from our
pastor, but the problems and thesymptoms stayed.
We went to my argument, so Isought help from our pastor, but
the problems and the symptomsstayed.
We went to my therapisttogether, but she disregarded my
hysterics.
Finally, after some sleeplessnights and continued dramatic
behaviors, I was admitted to thehospital.
Funny enough, as a creativetype, I had already been working
(35:51):
on the first draft of my book,a memoir of my first
hospitalization.
Little did I know that, eightyears later, my story was to
earn a part two.
Endless nights and days andnights lost in paranoia and
manic psychosis.
Once admitted to the adultworld, the screams down the road
from SeaWorld Orlando didn'thelp at all.
(36:12):
I couldn't tell whether theywere screams from accelerated
amusement park guests or theinternal cries of at least half
of the psych patients.
The first night there slippedseamlessly into days of insomnia
.
I was experiencing paranoiathat kept me from getting sleep,
believing my dreams would beextracted and used to manipulate
me.
I fought to stay awake, andsundown proved most difficult.
(36:35):
At first, refusing to take anymedication, I now entertained
hallucinations and believed Iwas in the midst of angels and
demons and spiritual warfare.
My overt manic expressions ofimprovised songs, rapping and
flirtatious witty banter made mefeel like the star of the show.
Then a messiah complex followed.
(36:56):
Banter made me feel like thestar of the show and a Messiah
complex followed when I prayedfor me.
I got one.
I requested to leave within thefirst three days, so the
hospital conducted a court caseand the system permitted my
discharge against mypsychiatrist's wishes.
On the subsequent trip to mycousin's wedding in New York a
week later, my husband and Imade it through the ceremony,
(37:18):
but the drug cocktail hastilyprescribed before my discharge
quickly lost effect and we wereforced to take an impromptu
flight back to Florida, where Iwas readmitted into the hospital
again.
Despite desperate to win thisbattle of my sanity versus my
misguided judgment, I finallyembraced.
The staff's medicationrecommendations.
(37:39):
Rounds of group therapy andsupervised activities, plus the
testing of multiple psychotropicmedications, kept my paranoia
alive.
I was the butt of a cosmic jokeand being persecuted for my
faith.
It didn't seem fair that theycould keep me behind locked
doors and call me a danger tomyself and others, when all I
wanted was to get out of thispit.
(38:00):
I was being mocked, lined upfor the slaughter.
Ideas of reference came andenhanced this journey of
distorted reality.
When a patient named Edwardtried to kiss me, I was suddenly
Bella Swan from the vampireseries Twilight, with the
presence of a ropes course inthe courtyard and the
assimilation of people in aconfined unit.
I was Katniss Everdeen from theHunger Games.
(38:21):
A bossy blonde girl manipulatedand teased me and I morphed
into Laura Ingalls, fightingspoiled Nellie Olsen from Little
House on the Prairie.
The psychosis packed a punch andI was on cloud nine for a good
portion of the time.
But no matter how it languishedmy beliefs, I couldn't
stabilize and come back toreality.
This illness was too much forme to handle on my own.
(38:42):
When they discharged me thesecond time after another 10
days, I was still tipsy.
At the beginning of October,after a few anxiety attacks at
home and a strong intuition thatI needed a different
combination of medications, Ireadmitted myself to a different
psych board for a few moreweeks.
It was a tormenting experience,as I believed the apocalypse
(39:02):
was near.
It was 2012, after all.
I even met another patient, acaricature of Jesus, who tried
to convince me he was too busyfor my struggles since December
21st.
The Mayan calendar date for theend of time came soon.
He had me Hook, line and sinker.
While confusion reigned supreme,my symptoms worsened,
(39:23):
hypersexuality came into theforeground of my bipolar
flare-up and I found thetemptation to seduce men and
plan a divorce stronger than myown will.
When I met a few other charmingbipolar flirts, I found the
desire to fantasize about beingwith them unbearable.
I fell for one guy and agreedthat if after the next year I
was divorced, we would find eachother and marry.
I took that love interest tothe level of a kiss, though he
(39:46):
didn't return the affectionatejester Soon.
I was talking openly ofdivorcing my dear husband,
though he, thankfully, wouldhave none of it.
I was sincere, but my passionsdied off as the time passed and
I was discharged for the lasttime.
I held my breath as December21st of that year came and went
and when the world didn't end, Igradually came back around.
(40:07):
It took a while to figure outthat all my psychotic
hallucinations and seemingsubstantiations weren't real.
After I felt like I betrayed myhusband in lusting after
another, I doubted I was evenborn again, a true follower of
Christ, a consequence of theillness was my irresponsible
behavior, combined with thevoices in my head which told me
that I was a child of Satan, notof God.
(40:29):
How could I enter the kingdomof heaven if I thought like an
adulteress?
But my husband never gave up,even when I did.
Eventually I repented and heforgave me.
The force of the bipolardisorder was strong, but God
proved stronger and faithful.
I always had a strong faith inGod.
I felt closest to him in myhospital stays than ever before,
(40:49):
but I wanted healing from mybipolar.
Didn't he promise healingthrough faith?
Sure, but I am wary now ofanyone professing signs and
wonders, as Jesus himself tellshis disciples in Matthew 7,
21-23, not everyone who says tome, lord, lord, shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he whodoes the will of my Father in
heaven.
God is good, as he restored mymind, my faith and my life.
(41:12):
It almost cost me my faith, butslowly and surely I came out of
the fog.
The bottom line is this Ineeded to take my medication, no
matter how much faith Ipossessed.
My journey since that lasthospitalization incorporated
intensive cognitive behavioraltherapy, a daily routine of
taking my medication, finding acareer.
(41:32):
I'm passionate about, advocatingfor mental wellness and sharing
my story in memoir and blogform.
I am a firm believer, not onlyin healing through prayer, but
in the merits of medication andscience.
If I had the opportunity to sitdown with my younger self,
maybe in the activities room orthe hallways of that psych
hospital in Orlando, I wouldtell her that, yes, god can and
(41:54):
does heal.
But just because some preacherencouraged you that you could be
healed simply by having enoughfaith, you need to be wise and
take care, take counsel ofothers.
Medication is God's gift to youto keep you stable and mentally
intact.
That's what I would tell thatconfused young woman.
I know this is true becausewithout my medicine, I lost my
(42:15):
mind, even though my faith wasintact.
Without God, there's nomedicine and in regards to my
mental well-being, that is themiracle of miracles Redemption
through modern science andmedication.
He is, after all, known as theGreat Physician.
Thankfully, I'm taking hisprescription for a full, healthy
life, medication and a dailydose of his truth, his word.
(42:36):
Today I'm more stable and soundof mind than ever.
I found that this life withserious mental illness is a
battle, but if I can take mymedication and hash out my
issues in life with a Christiantherapist, close friend or
family members.
I am already on the road tovictory.
Half the battle was acceptingthe diagnosis and understanding
that there is a treatment thatcan keep me balanced and
(42:57):
functional.
I'm going places now.
Sharing my testimony and trialsproves to me and others that
this illness is not something toignore, but that the Lord, my
shepherd, is working outeverything to the good and to
his glory for all who love himand are called according to his
purposes Romans 8, 28.
Everyone has a cross in life tobear, and mine happens to be
(43:17):
bipolar disorder.
I'm so blessed to have the depthof experience I did.
I felt the closest to God inthe hospital and no one can deny
me that he saw what I saw,heard what I heard, and that
comforts me.
I know beyond a shadow of adoubt that even in my mania he
was in control then and is incontrol now.
It's his creation.
He is king of it.
So for those struggling withfaith in God in the midst of
(43:40):
mental illness, take courage.
He is for us, for God has notgiven us a spirit of fear, but
of power, love and a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1.7.
When the day comes andpsychiatry wants to study the
connection between spiritual andscientific, my case will
provide the material to do so.
I am convinced that spiritual,social, intellectual, emotional
(44:03):
and physical are intricatelyintertwined and more correlative
than is generally accepted.
If the mind is science's finalfrontier, it is because it is
the most mysterious, complex andelusive object ever studied.
It's the most mysterious,complex and elusive object ever
studied.
Having my brain chemistryaltered through bipolar disorder
and the medications I trialedwas a psychological meat grinder
kind of experience thatoppressed and twisted my sanity.
(44:23):
I wouldn't be where I am today,healthy and stable, if it
wasn't for the superb conductionof medication I take daily.
Surely, medication for my mindis nothing short of a miracle.
No matter how much faith I haveis nothing short of a miracle,
no matter how much faith I have.
Gabe Nathan (44:39):
Thank you so much for not only reading that but
for writing that and I want totell you, as your editor working
on that piece I just rememberwhat a pleasure it was working
on that with you.
Katie Dale (44:55):
Oh, thanks, Gabe.
Yeah, same here.
You're a great editor.
Gabe Nathan (44:58):
Thank you.
A couple of paragraphs up fromthe end you write if I had the
opportunity to sit down with myyounger self, maybe in the
activities room or the hallwayof that psych hospital, Orlando,
I would tell her.
And then you go on to say whatyou would tell your younger self
.
This essay was now written byyour younger self, with years
(45:24):
having gone by.
What would you tell the Katie RDale who wrote this piece?
Knowing what you know now,experiencing, having what you've
experienced now, what would yousit down and talk to her about
now?
Katie Dale (45:45):
That's a hard question.
I'm not sure.
Gabe Nathan (45:47):
That's what I'm here for.
Katie Dale (45:49):
I'm here for the softballs and the hardballs yes,
yes, it's good because, yeah, Ifeel like gosh, there's so much
that went on between you knowthe time I wrote that piece and
now that it's like I don't havetime for that, like to stop and
think I've got a three-year-oldand I'm doing X Y, z already.
(46:13):
So it's really something Iwould encourage myself then is
just stay the course and keepshowing mercy to other people.
Like don't be tempted to judgepeople for wherever they're at.
Gabe Nathan (46:31):
Do you feel like you judged yourself?
Katie Dale (46:35):
Which self.
Gabe Nathan (46:36):
At that time?
At that time, or is thatsomething that you struggle with
now, for choices that you make,or even for having mental
health challenges, or foranything?
Katie Dale (46:50):
You know what?
I don't think I'm thatjudgmental as I used to be,
because I do remember that was abig lesson I learned in the
hospital.
But I need to be reminded of itevery now and then, because I
don't judge others or myself for, like being mentally ill, but I
may judge somebody for I don'tknow, like something else, like
(47:18):
not believing exactly the sameway I do and not being there to
like listen to them, tounderstand, to like listen to
them to understand.
And I do that, probably morethan I realize, because I've you
know, like I don't know.
I just feel like that could besomething I could work on.
Um, now, even so, um, yeah,it's hard.
(47:41):
I'm a very introspective person, but, you know, it's in those
moments during the day that Iand moments during the day that
I'm not always self-aware aboutit.
Gabe Nathan (47:51):
I'm thinking about it during the day as I go
through my day, but I'm notalways catching myself like, oh,
I was judging that person, orwhatever, it's a very human
thing and it's also a very humanand very cool thing to be
contemplative about it and tonotice when it's happening, or
(48:11):
maybe notice after it's happened.
Maybe you'll leave thisinterview and think about it.
Maybe when Gabe said, oh, I'matheist or I don't believe in
anything, maybe I had thatflicker of feeling, and that's
okay.
Katie Dale (48:26):
Which I don't, by the way.
Gabe Nathan (48:29):
But if you did, that's okay, and I think it's
okay to feel it or not feel it,or think about it or be curious
about it or even subconsciously,because I might give that vibe,
because I'm not aware of it.
Right, right, right, right, butthat's all part of being alive,
aware of it, yeah, right, right,right right, but that's all
part of I mean, that's all partof being alive, I think, when
(48:52):
you look towards so in thisinterview we did a lot of
looking at the past and, youknow, looking at where Katie was
when she was writing this essay, and in the essay she's looking
at the past and thinking aboutwhere she was in her first
hospitalization and second.
When you look now towards theessay, she's looking at the past
and thinking about where shewas in her first hospitalization
and second.
When you look now towards thefuture, what do you see?
Katie Dale (49:18):
I see light coming into different um communities
and, um, it's kind of like acandlelight and it's eliminated
and it's like there's mirrorsthat are like like I don't know
(49:41):
how you know, this is just me umoff the top of my head here.
I haven't thought of thisbefore, but it's um what's
coming to me.
So there's like mirrorsprojecting that light and like
the world getting brighter inthose communities that are.
The light represents um.
(50:04):
Light primarily represents thelaw of God, but that light is
shining on the truth of whatpeople are going through and
there's no filters of what thereality of what they're going
(50:25):
through is.
So people are able to seeclearer what a person struggling
with whatever it is, is goingthrough.
So that's where I hope thefuture is and that you know it
would spread like a fire, like awildfire.
Gabe Nathan (50:43):
That sounds pretty extraordinary and I can't help
but think two things.
One, how lovely and hopeful thatis juxtaposed against, I think,
feelings that a lot of peopleare feeling about how divided
everyone is and how polarizedeverything is and how negative
(51:06):
everything feels, and how I meannot to be too blunt with the
juxtaposition, but how darkeverything feels and that
there's not a lot of hope.
And it's a very hopefulsentiment.
And the other thing that I'mthinking about is the metaphor
that I've seen at so many mentalhealth presentations and
(51:27):
PowerPoints of the iceberg andit's the little piece at the top
of the water, is what you knowabout someone and what you see
about them, and everythingbeneath the water as it spreads
that you can't see is everythingelse that they're going through
.
And wouldn't it be nice if wecould see the entire iceberg for
(51:48):
everyone with whom we interactin a day the postal clerk, the
woman scanning our stuff at Aldi, our neighbor, our loved ones,
and so we could have a littlebit more compassion.
All of the veneers would bedropped, all of the fake social
bullshit, and we could just bekind of naked with who we are
(52:15):
and just be like this is me,this is everything on my plate.
Have a little empathy, you know.
Katie Dale (52:26):
Yeah, that's a powerful image right there too.
People are people and we're allstruggling with something,
whether Jesus or not, we're allstruggling.
Gabe Nathan (52:43):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm so grateful to you andyou're just such a cool person
and I feel like people listeningto this will want to find your
work and want to find you.
Where can they do that?
Katie Dale (52:59):
I'm on social media, at Katie R Dale, on the
hashtags, or hashtags thehandles, excuse me.
At KDR Dale.
Gabe Nathan (53:07):
Come on, get with it, Boomer.
Katie Dale (53:09):
I know right, the website is KDRDalecom and I just
started a sub stack today.
Wow, yeah, I'm going to checkthat out and give that a shot
too, yeah.
Gabe Nathan (53:29):
Wonderful.
Well, I'm wishing you all thevery best and thank you so much
for being here and for lookingback with us and for looking
ahead with us.
Thank you for being on RecoveryDiaries in Depth.
Katie Dale (53:41):
Wow, Gabe, this was fun and what a delight.
Thank you for having me.
Gabe Nathan (53:45):
My pleasure, thank you.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest for today, katie R Dale,
(54:15):
for taking us back to her essaycalled Finding my Faith Despite
Losing my Mind.
Thank you.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
(54:38):
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
, episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Ggabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Very happy to have you here.
I'm so excited to have ourguest, katie R Dale, who wrote
an essay for us in around 2017called Finding my Faith Despite
Losing my Mind, katie is anamazing advocate and a writer.
(00:25):
She maintains a blog about herdisorder on faith at
katierdalecom.
She's a former behavioralpatient and case manager with
unique firsthand experience withthe mental health care system
and the symptoms of mentalillness from a faith-based
perspective.
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
(00:45):
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
(01:05):
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
(01:26):
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
(01:51):
Katie Dale, thank you so muchfor being here on Recovery
Diaries In Depth.
It is a delight to see you andhave you here as a guest.
Katie Dale (01:56):
I'm so just excited to be here.
It's amazing to be with youguys.
I didn't have any idea that youguys would reach out.
This is exciting for me.
Gabe Nathan (02:08):
Well, you know, the loveliest thing about this
podcast is it gives me anopportunity to reflect.
So I've been involved withRecovery Diaries since 2014.
And the whole idea behind thisshow is looking back and looking
back into our past essaycontributors or people we've
(02:30):
made films about, and beingcurious about learning more
about these human beings.
Right, because we get thisthing, we get this essay from
you and it's a snapshot of youat a particular time in your
life and that's it, right.
It's kind of like watching amovie.
(02:50):
You can pop the movie and itmight have been made 30 years
ago and it never changes.
Um, but the actors who were init change and they grow older or
they pass away or whatever.
Um, but you're always like, wow, wow, what's different about
them now?
And that's the whole idea hereis bringing people back and
checking in with them and seeingwhat's stayed the same, what's
(03:15):
different?
Who are you now?
Where are you now?
So, like hi, who are you nowand where are you now?
I mean, you're in Germany right?
That's where you are physically.
Katie Dale (03:30):
Yeah, we are.
He's stationed at Ramstein, myhusband, so we are at just a
beautiful location in themountains, like a little farm
village.
It's really small and quiet,but it's surreal.
Like every day at 6 pm thechimes from the church just over
(03:53):
the hill are chiming and it'slike wow, and every morning too
they wake me up.
So it's like living in a kindof a fantasy of like this is
real, but yeah, it doesn't getold at this point it hasn't so
far, so it's been really reallycool.
Gabe Nathan (04:16):
Wow, a little bit different from Florida huh?
Katie Dale (04:19):
Yeah, a lot, oh g ood ness, yes.
Gabe Nathan (04:22):
So can you take us back to Florida, take us back to
2017, to where you were.
What was going on in your lifeat around the time that we
connected to work on your essay?
Katie Dale (04:41):
Actually I think I was in Missouri at that time
Gabe Nathan (04:44):
Okay.
Katie Dale (04:45):
Yeah, we had just been to um, he got stationed
over at Whiteman.
Then I think we just got thereand I had gotten picked up as a
kind of a social work positionat a nonprofit and I was
(05:06):
starting to work there when yep,when you guys reached out to me
about confirming the story wasgoing and everything.
So it was really another likechapter was opening and I
started that job and reallyloved it, fell in love with that
work because I had been anactivities director in prior
positions in a residential likenursing home type setup before
(05:31):
that and that was well, that wasa good job for me.
I loved the social work.
I really.
It really fit me for mypersonality, my background, my
experience clinically and it wasa very good eye-opening.
It really fit me for mypersonality, my background, my
experience clinically and it wasa very good eye-opening.
(05:52):
I could tell when somebody wasstruggling with a hallucination
and my heart went out to themwhen I was talking with them and
it's just there's nothing likeit when you and somebody else,
when you're working withsomebody and you're like you
know that empathy comes out andyou're able to connect with that
person.
It really gives you thatrapport to work with them and
(06:13):
for them to trust you as theircaseworker.
Gabe Nathan (06:49):
It was a very influential kind of work that on
this website and with your fullname attached and you know,
going into some descriptions ofbeing very symptomatic in terms
of bipolar disorder.
Did that give you pause at all?
What was that experience likefor you thinking about?
(07:09):
You know, do I want to do this,do I not want to do this?
What are some of the potentialconsequences?
Katie Dale (07:15):
Yeah, you know, actually didn't cross my mind.
I didn't flinch because that'swho I am, is like you see what
you get.
And I was writing the book, thememoir that I mentioned in the
bio, and I was already workingon that.
I'm like, yeah, this is mytestimony and this is who I am.
I did, you know, since then,have grown in certain you know,
(07:40):
nuances of like.
Well, I don't identify withbipolar to the degree that you
know I'm going to go around LikeI changed my since changed my
blog name, I received BipolarBrave, and now I'm like, eh, I
kind of I made reservationssince putting my story out there
(08:01):
.
I know even now that I want topublish more books and write
more and it's like, oh, I needto be strategic because having
my memoir published but deliverme from crazy, you know that
being the title it's like I wasjust at a craft fair, like sales
show, last weekend and peoplewere looking at my book and I'm
like that's really polarizing.
(08:23):
I'm thinking to myself likecrazy, and I could just see them
looking at the word crazy.
So, yeah, I've definitely likegrown since then and realized,
wow, you know, I was all outabout it, but there is wisdom to
approaching people who aren'tas familiar which many people
(08:45):
aren't and the general publicabout these types of things,
because it's not just delicate,it's very nuanced, there's so
much to it.
So I think I've grown since wehad my story published on your
site and since my book waspublished.
Gabe Nathan (09:03):
So, yeah, so I want to talk about that a little bit
more, because I'm so interestedin the ways in which people
change and the ways in whichthoughts and feelings and
perspectives and the way inwhich we present ourselves to
(09:23):
the world changes as we getolder, and also in the sense
that there's room at the tablefor lots of different ways to
talk about things like mentalhealth, like mental illness.
I think there's room at thetable for people who want to be
(09:43):
all out there and big and boldand in your face, and I think
there's also room at the tablefor people who want to be more
nuanced, to use your word, abouthow they approach difficult
topics or how they talk aboutthemselves.
And can you just talk to me alittle bit about your evolution,
(10:06):
I guess in the last I don'tknow six, seven years, about how
you think about yourself andhow you put yourself out there?
Katie Dale (10:14):
Yeah, that's a good question, because I haven't
really thought that through.
Gabe Nathan (10:19):
That's okay, I'm an external processor, exactly
yeah.
Let's do it.
Katie Dale (10:23):
Yeah.
So I guess you know, havingbeen through a lot of therapy
and going back to therapy, so welost our son, my firstborn, in
2020, right at the onset ofCOVID.
That was like.
Gabe Nathan (10:43):
Katie, I'm so sorry , I had no idea.
Katie Dale (10:47):
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah, thanks.
I think that was a differentkind of difficult and it grew me
as a I felt more like anobserver than I was actually
going through something, cause,yeah, it was just um a big
(11:13):
unexpected thing and I kind oftook a lot of lessons from that,
of lessons from that.
So, um, I guess one of thelessons that I learned was that
stuff like that, like I don'tknow now I'm still thinking
(11:35):
about it because I'm sharing itand I'm thinking like that hits
like a ton of bricks sometimeswhen you just drop a bomb.
That hits like a ton of brickssometimes when you just drop a
bomb right, and it's like, ohman, you must have felt this,
this and this, or oh, so sorryfor you.
And oh, I can't imagine this.
And it's like gosh, I wish Ihad written my book and I was
(11:58):
just thinking about this theother day because I just
published my book right beforehe was born and passed, and I
was like, I think in the otherday, if I just come out and like
told people what was going onmore like in the book and just
explained it and like broke itdown for them instead of going
(12:19):
into the immersive experience ofwhat I went through, of
experience of what I wentthrough and if I'd process it
more for the reader and likeit's just so hard to know some
still for me what to say andwhat not to say.
I'm still learning.
I just I feel like it is.
It can get to be a little bitmuch when I'm learning and
(12:44):
growing in other areas and I'mnot as focused on the experience
side of things.
So I've been through, you know,the casework position and saw,
you know how I could help peoplein these, in similar situations
, and then I went through, lostmy son and went through some
other things and just turmoil.
But you know growth andmaturity and years.
(13:06):
And now I'm, I'm onto differentthings.
I'm pivoting in the sense of,like I don't want it to be all
about the experience, theexperience, the experience.
I'd rather be.
I'm not very much aboutexperiences as a person, but I'm
I'm leaning into what's next,like what's the future have, and
(13:30):
for me I sense a deep callingto speak to that, a different, a
totally different avenue orarena of God and how he speaks
to our hearts through his spirit, which is a totally different
segment, a totally differentpopulation.
But like I just I know there'sa lot of overlap there too.
(13:51):
I've grown as a person in mywalk with Christ and that has
just like given me that futureforward vision and so I'm also
helping other organizations andnonprofits with that kind of
tying in the faith and themental health pieces.
But yeah, I just there's littlelittle things that I would
(14:16):
change about the book or aboutlike how I used to be so out and
about about it.
But now I'm growing as a person.
I'm looking forward to the nextbook I'm writing and the
potential to reach people about.
Well, if you're, you knowsomebody who's had psychosis and
you thought you heard from God,then what's the difference
(14:37):
between hearing from God fromyour heart than hearing him in
your head?
So I really want to get intothat.
That's my kind of him in yourhead.
So I really want to get intothat.
That's my kind of um sweet spot.
Where I'm at right now is likethat's what I'm working on,
that's where I'm living, that'sthe space I'm in well, it's,
it's and I guess this is as Iwas talking to you before.
Gabe Nathan (15:00):
You know, we started recording like this is
why we're doing this show,because of the evolution of
human beings and because of howmany things change and because
of what life throws at us.
You know, we have no ideawhat's around the corner and we
(15:21):
think we have all of thiscontrol and we think we have all
of this, all of these plans,and it's all bullshit.
You know, we just it really is.
And you know, I was even.
I was sitting with my wife andwe were planning out meals, like
for the week, because we'regoing food shopping later today.
We have no idea what'shappening this week, but even
(15:42):
something as simple as likemaking that food list, you think
you're like controlling andmapping out this week, but even
something as simple as likemaking that food list, you think
you're like controlling andmapping out the week, but it can
all go out the window at anymoment.
Katie Dale (15:57):
Go ahead, yeah, so as you were talking about that.
It's like I have been on thesame dosage of the medicines I'm
taking since 2012.
For what was that 12 years, andI haven't changed the dosage in
that time.
Really, I think maybe came offone of the meds and I've been on
two meds since then, Once a day, every day, taking my meds.
(16:20):
Right, it keeps the symptomsaway.
I'm thriving.
And then I'm like how long isthis going to last?
Because I know meditationsdon't always indefinitely work
(16:44):
and so, as much as they're stillworking and as much as I feel
stable, I have been noticinglike some twitching on my face
and I'm like, oh, I hope that'snot td tardive dyskinesia yeah
yeah, and that would be like notfun.
Gabe Nathan (16:57):
But no, td is not fun.
Katie Dale (17:00):
No I'll just worry about that when I, if I, if I
get to that point.
So I'm just, but yeah, likestuff like that and I could be
back in the hospital for all weknow, like in another few years.
Who knows, Heaven forbid.
But you know, it's just it's.
You don't know what's going tobe around the bend.
(17:21):
And I'm just so grateful that myfaith has been like that
underpinning of my life, becauseever since I was a little girl,
growing up in church and goingto youth camps and learning
about Jesus, and how much thathas impacted me and that seed of
faith has grown through me.
Um, and then going through life, it's like, whenever it hits
(17:48):
the road, you, you, you got toturn to somebody, like, and if
God's the only one who's in yourhead, who knows what's going on
in your head, is like you know,like you better have God.
Um, it's, it's hard to be aloneon that kind of road,
especially with bipolar.
I don't know how, um, I, I, Idon't like saying I don't know
how people do it without God,but I, like you know, I
acknowledge that like, people doget through without him.
Gabe Nathan (18:22):
But for me I don't know if the label is, but I have
zero religious interest orbeliefs or whatever, and I love
talking to all different kindsof people and I love hearing
from you and I think it'sfascinating how you approach
your relationship with yourmental health and your
(18:43):
relationship with yourself andyour relationship with God and
your relationship with medicaltreatment, and you talk about
this in your essay a bit.
But can you talk a little bitnow about?
Okay?
We got a comment and I'm kindof all over the place.
(19:04):
We got a comment on a YouTube ona film that we made a couple
years ago about a pianist whostruggles with anxiety disorder,
performance-related anxiety,and he's a concert pianist, like
at a very, very high level andsomeone wrote a comment like you
know something to the effect ofas soon as this individual
(19:28):
realizes that Jesus is the onlyway, you know they're not going
to get better.
It was something like that andthat that's the only answer is
giving yourself over to Jesus,and like that, this guy is
(19:48):
always going to be strugglinguntil that happens.
And I was thinking actuallyabout you because I knew that
this interview was coming up andI was like, well, here's
someone who has very strongfaith and a very loving and
tested loving and testedrelationship with faith, but is
(20:11):
also on medication, and I justwant to hear from you about that
.
I don't know if it's duality,but about that ability to kind
of do both or have both do bothor have both.
Katie Dale (20:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, um, definitely um,
something I'm passionate about,you know, because, um, there's
just different things that youknow, different points in my
life where, like before I gotsick, you know, I was really
wanting to know is God real?
And I had not known for sure.
Like I accepted the Lord Jesusinto my heart at five years old.
(20:54):
But you know what?
Like, what does that mean?
Like I felt like he was with me, I felt forgiven of my sins, I
felt the weight lifted, but thatwas a five-year-old perspective
.
I felt forgiven of my sins.
I felt weight lifted, but thatwas a five-year-old perspective,
and when I was 15, I was still.
You know, prove to me thatyou're real.
You know, I was at that placewhere I'm like you know, how do
I know?
This is all what they say it is.
(21:16):
So I went to the Gospel of Johnand read the Bible, which is
god's inspired word.
Like um john 14, 6, where hesays you know the, the way to
god, the father.
Um, there is no other wayexcept through me.
(21:37):
I'm the way, the truth and life.
So that truth piece, though,really really seemed to ground
me, because when Jesus claimshe's the truth, that's a big
statement.
So, with that seed planted,going through the following year
, not realizing I was going toget sick, with the onset of the
(21:58):
bipolar symptoms, I walked intothat new environment that year
with the big change and thetriggering, triggering the
symptoms, and I'm like, well,this sucks, like this is a
Christian school and going to,you know change from public to
private.
They call themselves christians, but like where's god?
(22:18):
Like this doesn't make sense,they're not being very christian
to me, or like you know they,they didn't seem to be showing
jesus to me.
So, um, the depression set inand I was just like this is a
doubt filled my mind.
I'm like how can, how can I bea Christian and have Jesus in my
heart and I'm feeling likenothing, like the apathy and all
(22:41):
the chemical imbalance like oflike that zero flat line with
the emotions, and yet God livesin my heart, like that doesn't
add up, like there's somethingoff.
So I went through, you know,that dramatic and traumatic
experience with the psychosisand all that in the hospital,
(23:03):
and so all that to say it'sthose hard, hard times was when
I actually did feel like once Iwas my attitude adjusted to be
like no, like God's still here.
I just have to be still andlike recognize him and
(23:27):
spiritually, to turn my eyesspiritually to Jesus and like
believe him, what he's tellingme, that he's with me and he's
faithful, what he's telling methat he's with me, that he's
faithful, that he's the Lord,that he's my good shepherd, that
he's my great physician.
All this and it's not a work Ido, like it's not in my strength
, that I'm pulling myself up bymy bootstraps, like it's
(23:48):
definitely like justacknowledging him and believing
and calling on him on his name.
He did the rest, like he showedup, I felt his presence in the
hospital.
He got me on the right meds.
After that, the doctors helped.
He worked through the doctorsand the science and the
pharmaceuticals.
I got back on the meds that Ineeded.
I went to good therapists anddid the work, put in some effort
(24:13):
with therapy, psychotherapy,talk therapy but he provided all
those avenues.
He put those people in my path.
He answered my prayers for thathealing that I wanted so
desperately and so to me, havingthat experience gave me that
backbone of who I am as a person.
(24:34):
Gave me that backbone of who Iam as a person that you could
never tell me or convince meotherwise that God isn't real,
that Jesus isn't alive, becauseI've already seen his answer to
my prayers, specifically for thehealing through the medicine
and the grace of that.
Now, when people say, like youwere saying, that the guy was
(24:58):
suffering with anxiety, if hehad Jesus he wouldn't suffer, I
am compelled to and I just wrotea blog post about it on my blog
there at katierdalecom likethere's so too much accusation
(25:21):
and too many assumptions in thechurch that start from
leadership about sin and anxietybeing a sin and equating
anxiety as a sin is is where I Ihave to kind of deviate,
because that's um, definitelythere's a difference between
worrying and having like anuncontrollable, like condition.
Gabe Nathan (25:42):
A disorder, yeah.
Katie Dale (25:43):
Yeah, so where that comes in, it's like I understand
, you know it's preached fromthe pulpit and it's very oh,
mental illness is a myth in alot of circles.
Mental illness is a myth in alot of circles.
But you know, that's why I'mstill advocating and speaking to
churches and the Christiancommunity that there's just, you
(26:08):
know, no excuse for condemningpeople who are suffering from a
no-fault condition.
So I feel for those people whoare being condemned and blamed
for their illnesses.
It's just something I'm awareof every day when I work with
(26:31):
organizations like NationalShattering Silence Coalition and
Delight and Disorder Ministries.
And we're all in those circlesaware that, like anosognosia and
the lack of insight is a hugepiece, and yet I struggle with
(26:53):
speaking to and communicatingthis.
But I got to do this some morebecause I don't think a lot of
the church gets it.
But that piece of anastomosisis still a barrier for the
church, not aware.
It's like they aren't awarethat people aren't aware or have
the insight.
(27:14):
So yeah, it gets prettyfrustrating for sure.
Gabe Nathan (27:19):
And I'm so glad that you wanted to talk about
this because I feel like thereare so many.
There's this statistic fromNAMI that says the average
length of time between onset ofsymptoms and a person seeking
help treatment is 11 years.
That's just the average right.
(27:41):
And when I think about that andI think about all the myriad
reasons why someone might notwant to seek help among those, I
think about people who arereligious, who may go.
You know, if I talk to my faithleader or if I reveal that I'm
(28:05):
struggling with, I will beshunned.
I will not be embraced in thisatmosphere of all are welcome or
, you know, everyone is welcomehere and all of that stuff.
It is conditional love.
It's not for many.
It's not the unconditional lovethat is preached.
(28:29):
It's well if you fall into linewith A how we think about
marriage, or how we think aboutsexuality, or if you don't have,
you know, x, y and z disorder,yes, we will embrace you and
such and such.
But if you fall out of step,then there's going to be a
problem, or at least that can becertain people's perception,
(28:50):
and I feel like that can be abarrier to seeking help and I
feel like lives can be lost thatway.
And that gets us into the wholeother thing about.
Well, suicide is a sin and theperception that way.
I remember I was doing asuicide awareness event at a
(29:11):
Catholic college and a very,very old nun was in tears after
the event and I came up to herto talk to her and she said you
know, I lost my brother tosuicide 52 years ago and we just
have to stop this.
We have to stop telling peoplethat they're going to hell or
(29:36):
that this is a sin.
And I look at people like youas you know, you're kind of how
change happens.
People like you who are walkingthe walk and talking the talk
and living with mental healthchallenges and also living a
(29:57):
life of faith and being openabout that and trying to change
how that's viewed within thecontext of faith.
That's how change happens, Ithink.
So I just want to recognizethat.
Katie Dale (30:12):
Yeah, thanks, yeah, I think there is good efforts
going on.
Yeah, thanks, yeah, I thinkthere is good efforts going on.
(30:40):
Fresh Hope for Mental Health isan organization that is very
instrumental.
They have their Hope MadeStrong out of Canada with Laura
Howe, and there is Thrive andCultivate.
That's another churchleadership mental health summit
online and there are people thatget it and they're doing the
work to you know, send thatmessage.
(31:04):
But even while that's happening,like yeah, there's the least of
these two that are sufferingand not getting the help they
need and like what do we do then?
So I think I always rememberanosognosia, because that is
usually why we resist thetreatment if we have a mood
disorder.
So I always want people to beaware of that because it's not
(31:26):
well-known, it's not commonknowledge, and bringing that up
also for the church's sake, likefor the church's sake, like
that's your, like mission, isyour mission field should be
like the least of these, likejesus cared for and giving them
a cup of water, giving them,visiting them in prison, like
(31:48):
going to the hospital forsomebody who doesn't realize
they're sick is your least ofthese and that's how you, I feel
like we need to really notforget, and I hope that's my
hope is that the work and theeffort and advocacy I feel
(32:08):
called to go in and I reallytruly believe Jesus is leading
the way in and hope that thechurch follows.
Gabe Nathan (32:19):
Well, you've been doing the work for a long time,
and I can't think of a nicer wayto lead into the essay that you
wrote for us a number of yearsago now.
It is called Finding my FaithDespite Losing my Mind, and I
would love it if you would readthis aloud for us.
Katie Dale (32:40):
That would be great.
I can do that, okay.
At 24, I was hitting the peakof my young adult life.
I was a college grad, enjoyingmarriage and working my dream
job as a graphic designer for asmall business in sunny central
Florida.
Yes, I was living with bipolar1, diagnosed at the tender age
(33:00):
of 16, but I had come a longways from my three-week stay in
the juvenile psych ward.
The unpredictability of thatmemorable stay blindsided me.
No one explained to me howtraumatic and scarring this
experience would be for me andhow it would shape my future.
I was confused, paranoid, andmy arms seemed to always reach
(33:22):
forward in a stiff, zombie-likeposture.
But I came around and believed,through a daily ritual of
taking my prescribed medication,that I was healed.
I also believed, as a committedChristian, that my stable
mental health was a result ofanswered prayers and claimed
Bible verses.
In the spring of 2012, myhusband and I purchased our
(33:42):
first house and moved in,praising God that we were young,
first-time homeowners with abeautiful property all of our
own.
The move put me in a great mood.
So great, in fact, that Idecided it was time to come off
my medications.
So great, in fact, that Idecided it was time to come off
my medications.
The sermons from a Southernfaithward televangelist to whom
I listened at the time confirmedmy aspirations for a whole,
(34:03):
healthy mind.
He prided his ministry on thepremise that healing was only
dependent on the faith insideoneself.
He never communicatedexplicitly that I go off my
medication or address those withmental illness, but to me that
didn't seem to matter.
All that was required to behealed Enough faith.
As my husband and I discussedmy plans to taper off my
(34:25):
medication, he encouraged me towait until his month-long trip
to Mongolia.
That July was over.
The call to healing throughfaith was too loud to ignore.
Instead, against mypsychiatrist's warning, I
tapered off the medicine In myhusband's absence.
I morphed into a full-blownmanic case.
My symptoms from eight yearsbefore returned, although
(34:48):
moments and days of supremeecstasy.
The world of bipolar wasalluring and magical Boundless
energy, creative ideas,heightened mood, exaggerated
optimism and self-confidence.
Who wouldn't want to be bipolar?
(35:08):
Life was like a movie, andevery song I sang or heard was
part of the soundtrack.
But then the paranoia ensued,stopping me in my tracks of
euphoric ecstasy, inferring inmy conscience that the FBI was
bugging the house, overshadowingmy rational mind.
After a handful of exasperatingonline chats with my husband,
(35:29):
he returned home to find a manicand maniacal wife.
We had argument after argument,so I sought help from our
pastor, but the problems and thesymptoms stayed.
We went to my argument, so Isought help from our pastor, but
the problems and the symptomsstayed.
We went to my therapisttogether, but she disregarded my
hysterics.
Finally, after some sleeplessnights and continued dramatic
behaviors, I was admitted to thehospital.
Funny enough, as a creativetype, I had already been working
(35:51):
on the first draft of my book,a memoir of my first
hospitalization.
Little did I know that, eightyears later, my story was to
earn a part two.
Endless nights and days andnights lost in paranoia and
manic psychosis.
Once admitted to the adultworld, the screams down the road
from SeaWorld Orlando didn'thelp at all.
(36:12):
I couldn't tell whether theywere screams from accelerated
amusement park guests or theinternal cries of at least half
of the psych patients.
The first night there slippedseamlessly into days of insomnia
.
I was experiencing paranoiathat kept me from getting sleep,
believing my dreams would beextracted and used to manipulate
me.
I fought to stay awake, andsundown proved most difficult.
(36:35):
At first, refusing to take anymedication, I now entertained
hallucinations and believed Iwas in the midst of angels and
demons and spiritual warfare.
My overt manic expressions ofimprovised songs, rapping and
flirtatious witty banter made mefeel like the star of the show.
Then a messiah complex followed.
(36:56):
Banter made me feel like thestar of the show and a Messiah
complex followed when I prayedfor me.
I got one.
I requested to leave within thefirst three days, so the
hospital conducted a court caseand the system permitted my
discharge against mypsychiatrist's wishes.
On the subsequent trip to mycousin's wedding in New York a
week later, my husband and Imade it through the ceremony,
(37:18):
but the drug cocktail hastilyprescribed before my discharge
quickly lost effect and we wereforced to take an impromptu
flight back to Florida, where Iwas readmitted into the hospital
again.
Despite desperate to win thisbattle of my sanity versus my
misguided judgment, I finallyembraced.
The staff's medicationrecommendations.
(37:39):
Rounds of group therapy andsupervised activities, plus the
testing of multiple psychotropicmedications, kept my paranoia
alive.
I was the butt of a cosmic jokeand being persecuted for my
faith.
It didn't seem fair that theycould keep me behind locked
doors and call me a danger tomyself and others, when all I
wanted was to get out of thispit.
(38:00):
I was being mocked, lined upfor the slaughter.
Ideas of reference came andenhanced this journey of
distorted reality.
When a patient named Edwardtried to kiss me, I was suddenly
Bella Swan from the vampireseries Twilight, with the
presence of a ropes course inthe courtyard and the
assimilation of people in aconfined unit.
I was Katniss Everdeen from theHunger Games.
(38:21):
A bossy blonde girl manipulatedand teased me and I morphed
into Laura Ingalls, fightingspoiled Nellie Olsen from Little
House on the Prairie.
The psychosis packed a punch andI was on cloud nine for a good
portion of the time.
But no matter how it languishedmy beliefs, I couldn't
stabilize and come back toreality.
This illness was too much forme to handle on my own.
(38:42):
When they discharged me thesecond time after another 10
days, I was still tipsy.
At the beginning of October,after a few anxiety attacks at
home and a strong intuition thatI needed a different
combination of medications, Ireadmitted myself to a different
psych board for a few moreweeks.
It was a tormenting experience,as I believed the apocalypse
(39:02):
was near.
It was 2012, after all.
I even met another patient, acaricature of Jesus, who tried
to convince me he was too busyfor my struggles since December
21st.
The Mayan calendar date for theend of time came soon.
He had me Hook, line and sinker.
While confusion reigned supreme,my symptoms worsened,
(39:23):
hypersexuality came into theforeground of my bipolar
flare-up and I found thetemptation to seduce men and
plan a divorce stronger than myown will.
When I met a few other charmingbipolar flirts, I found the
desire to fantasize about beingwith them unbearable.
I fell for one guy and agreedthat if after the next year I
was divorced, we would find eachother and marry.
I took that love interest tothe level of a kiss, though he
(39:46):
didn't return the affectionatejester Soon.
I was talking openly ofdivorcing my dear husband,
though he, thankfully, wouldhave none of it.
I was sincere, but my passionsdied off as the time passed and
I was discharged for the lasttime.
I held my breath as December21st of that year came and went
and when the world didn't end, Igradually came back around.
(40:07):
It took a while to figure outthat all my psychotic
hallucinations and seemingsubstantiations weren't real.
After I felt like I betrayed myhusband in lusting after
another, I doubted I was evenborn again, a true follower of
Christ, a consequence of theillness was my irresponsible
behavior, combined with thevoices in my head which told me
that I was a child of Satan, notof God.
(40:29):
How could I enter the kingdomof heaven if I thought like an
adulteress?
But my husband never gave up,even when I did.
Eventually I repented and heforgave me.
The force of the bipolardisorder was strong, but God
proved stronger and faithful.
I always had a strong faith inGod.
I felt closest to him in myhospital stays than ever before,
(40:49):
but I wanted healing from mybipolar.
Didn't he promise healingthrough faith?
Sure, but I am wary now ofanyone professing signs and
wonders, as Jesus himself tellshis disciples in Matthew 7,
21-23, not everyone who says tome, lord, lord, shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he whodoes the will of my Father in
heaven.
God is good, as he restored mymind, my faith and my life.
(41:12):
It almost cost me my faith, butslowly and surely I came out of
the fog.
The bottom line is this Ineeded to take my medication, no
matter how much faith Ipossessed.
My journey since that lasthospitalization incorporated
intensive cognitive behavioraltherapy, a daily routine of
taking my medication, finding acareer.
(41:32):
I'm passionate about, advocatingfor mental wellness and sharing
my story in memoir and blogform.
I am a firm believer, not onlyin healing through prayer, but
in the merits of medication andscience.
If I had the opportunity to sitdown with my younger self,
maybe in the activities room orthe hallways of that psych
hospital in Orlando, I wouldtell her that, yes, god can and
(41:54):
does heal.
But just because some preacherencouraged you that you could be
healed simply by having enoughfaith, you need to be wise and
take care, take counsel ofothers.
Medication is God's gift to youto keep you stable and mentally
intact.
That's what I would tell thatconfused young woman.
I know this is true becausewithout my medicine, I lost my
(42:15):
mind, even though my faith wasintact.
Without God, there's nomedicine and in regards to my
mental well-being, that is themiracle of miracles Redemption
through modern science andmedication.
He is, after all, known as theGreat Physician.
Thankfully, I'm taking hisprescription for a full, healthy
life, medication and a dailydose of his truth, his word.
(42:36):
Today I'm more stable and soundof mind than ever.
I found that this life withserious mental illness is a
battle, but if I can take mymedication and hash out my
issues in life with a Christiantherapist, close friend or
family members.
I am already on the road tovictory.
Half the battle was acceptingthe diagnosis and understanding
that there is a treatment thatcan keep me balanced and
(42:57):
functional.
I'm going places now.
Sharing my testimony and trialsproves to me and others that
this illness is not something toignore, but that the Lord, my
shepherd, is working outeverything to the good and to
his glory for all who love himand are called according to his
purposes Romans 8, 28.
Everyone has a cross in life tobear, and mine happens to be
(43:17):
bipolar disorder.
I'm so blessed to have the depthof experience I did.
I felt the closest to God inthe hospital and no one can deny
me that he saw what I saw,heard what I heard, and that
comforts me.
I know beyond a shadow of adoubt that even in my mania he
was in control then and is incontrol now.
It's his creation.
He is king of it.
So for those struggling withfaith in God in the midst of
(43:40):
mental illness, take courage.
He is for us, for God has notgiven us a spirit of fear, but
of power, love and a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1.7.
When the day comes andpsychiatry wants to study the
connection between spiritual andscientific, my case will
provide the material to do so.
I am convinced that spiritual,social, intellectual, emotional
(44:03):
and physical are intricatelyintertwined and more correlative
than is generally accepted.
If the mind is science's finalfrontier, it is because it is
the most mysterious, complex andelusive object ever studied.
It's the most mysterious,complex and elusive object ever
studied.
Having my brain chemistryaltered through bipolar disorder
and the medications I trialedwas a psychological meat grinder
kind of experience thatoppressed and twisted my sanity.
(44:23):
I wouldn't be where I am today,healthy and stable, if it
wasn't for the superb conductionof medication I take daily.
Surely, medication for my mindis nothing short of a miracle.
No matter how much faith I haveis nothing short of a miracle,
no matter how much faith I have.
Gabe Nathan (44:39):
Thank you so much for not only reading that but
for writing that and I want totell you, as your editor working
on that piece I just rememberwhat a pleasure it was working
on that with you.
Katie Dale (44:55):
Oh, thanks, Gabe.
Yeah, same here.
You're a great editor.
Gabe Nathan (44:58):
Thank you.
A couple of paragraphs up fromthe end you write if I had the
opportunity to sit down with myyounger self, maybe in the
activities room or the hallwayof that psych hospital, Orlando,
I would tell her.
And then you go on to say whatyou would tell your younger self
.
This essay was now written byyour younger self, with years
(45:24):
having gone by.
What would you tell the Katie RDale who wrote this piece?
Knowing what you know now,experiencing, having what you've
experienced now, what would yousit down and talk to her about
now?
Katie Dale (45:45):
That's a hard question.
I'm not sure.
Gabe Nathan (45:47):
That's what I'm here for.
Katie Dale (45:49):
I'm here for the softballs and the hardballs yes,
yes, it's good because, yeah, Ifeel like gosh, there's so much
that went on between you knowthe time I wrote that piece and
now that it's like I don't havetime for that, like to stop and
think I've got a three-year-oldand I'm doing X Y, z already.
(46:13):
So it's really something Iwould encourage myself then is
just stay the course and keepshowing mercy to other people.
Like don't be tempted to judgepeople for wherever they're at.
Gabe Nathan (46:31):
Do you feel like you judged yourself?
Katie Dale (46:35):
Which self.
Gabe Nathan (46:36):
At that time?
At that time, or is thatsomething that you struggle with
now, for choices that you make,or even for having mental
health challenges, or foranything?
Katie Dale (46:50):
You know what?
I don't think I'm thatjudgmental as I used to be,
because I do remember that was abig lesson I learned in the
hospital.
But I need to be reminded of itevery now and then, because I
don't judge others or myself for, like being mentally ill, but I
may judge somebody for I don'tknow, like something else, like
(47:18):
not believing exactly the sameway I do and not being there to
like listen to them, tounderstand, to like listen to
them to understand.
And I do that, probably morethan I realize, because I've you
know, like I don't know.
I just feel like that could besomething I could work on.
Um, now, even so, um, yeah,it's hard.
(47:41):
I'm a very introspective person, but, you know, it's in those
moments during the day that Iand moments during the day that
I'm not always self-aware aboutit.
Gabe Nathan (47:51):
I'm thinking about it during the day as I go
through my day, but I'm notalways catching myself like, oh,
I was judging that person, orwhatever, it's a very human
thing and it's also a very humanand very cool thing to be
contemplative about it and tonotice when it's happening, or
(48:11):
maybe notice after it's happened.
Maybe you'll leave thisinterview and think about it.
Maybe when Gabe said, oh, I'matheist or I don't believe in
anything, maybe I had thatflicker of feeling, and that's
okay.
Katie Dale (48:26):
Which I don't, by the way.
Gabe Nathan (48:29):
But if you did, that's okay, and I think it's
okay to feel it or not feel it,or think about it or be curious
about it or even subconsciously,because I might give that vibe,
because I'm not aware of it.
Right, right, right, right, butthat's all part of being alive,
aware of it, yeah, right, right,right right, but that's all
part of I mean, that's all partof being alive, I think, when
(48:52):
you look towards so in thisinterview we did a lot of
looking at the past and, youknow, looking at where Katie was
when she was writing this essay, and in the essay she's looking
at the past and thinking aboutwhere she was in her first
hospitalization and second.
When you look now towards theessay, she's looking at the past
and thinking about where shewas in her first hospitalization
and second.
When you look now towards thefuture, what do you see?
Katie Dale (49:18):
I see light coming into different um communities
and, um, it's kind of like acandlelight and it's eliminated
and it's like there's mirrorsthat are like like I don't know
(49:41):
how you know, this is just me umoff the top of my head here.
I haven't thought of thisbefore, but it's um what's
coming to me.
So there's like mirrorsprojecting that light and like
the world getting brighter inthose communities that are.
The light represents um.
(50:04):
Light primarily represents thelaw of God, but that light is
shining on the truth of whatpeople are going through and
there's no filters of what thereality of what they're going
(50:25):
through is.
So people are able to seeclearer what a person struggling
with whatever it is, is goingthrough.
So that's where I hope thefuture is and that you know it
would spread like a fire, like awildfire.
Gabe Nathan (50:43):
That sounds pretty extraordinary and I can't help
but think two things.
One, how lovely and hopeful thatis juxtaposed against, I think,
feelings that a lot of peopleare feeling about how divided
everyone is and how polarizedeverything is and how negative
(51:06):
everything feels, and how I meannot to be too blunt with the
juxtaposition, but how darkeverything feels and that
there's not a lot of hope.
And it's a very hopefulsentiment.
And the other thing that I'mthinking about is the metaphor
that I've seen at so many mentalhealth presentations and
(51:27):
PowerPoints of the iceberg andit's the little piece at the top
of the water, is what you knowabout someone and what you see
about them, and everythingbeneath the water as it spreads
that you can't see is everythingelse that they're going through
.
And wouldn't it be nice if wecould see the entire iceberg for
(51:48):
everyone with whom we interactin a day the postal clerk, the
woman scanning our stuff at Aldi, our neighbor, our loved ones,
and so we could have a littlebit more compassion.
All of the veneers would bedropped, all of the fake social
bullshit, and we could just bekind of naked with who we are
(52:15):
and just be like this is me,this is everything on my plate.
Have a little empathy, you know.
Katie Dale (52:26):
Yeah, that's a powerful image right there too.
People are people and we're allstruggling with something,
whether Jesus or not, we're allstruggling.
Gabe Nathan (52:43):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm so grateful to you andyou're just such a cool person
and I feel like people listeningto this will want to find your
work and want to find you.
Where can they do that?
Katie Dale (52:59):
I'm on social media, at Katie R Dale, on the
hashtags, or hashtags thehandles, excuse me.
At KDR Dale.
Gabe Nathan (53:07):
Come on, get with it, Boomer.
Katie Dale (53:09):
I know right, the website is KDRDalecom and I just
started a sub stack today.
Wow, yeah, I'm going to checkthat out and give that a shot
too, yeah.
Gabe Nathan (53:29):
Wonderful.
Well, I'm wishing you all thevery best and thank you so much
for being here and for lookingback with us and for looking
ahead with us.
Thank you for being on RecoveryDiaries in Depth.
Katie Dale (53:41):
Wow, Gabe, this was fun and what a delight.
Thank you for having me.
Gabe Nathan (53:45):
My pleasure, thank you.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest for today, katie R Dale,
(54:15):
for taking us back to her essaycalled Finding my Faith Despite
Losing my Mind.
Thank you.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
(54:38):
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
, episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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