November 25, 2024 • 56 mins
What happens when a professor decides to break the silence on mental health within their academic community? Peter Leman, a writer and English professor from Utah, joins us to share his courageous journey of speaking openly about his struggles with depression and anxiety. His heartfelt essay not only resonated with many but sparked a movement towards empathy and understanding among students and faculty alike. Discover how the power of storytelling can transform lives and create supportive environments in places where stigma often prevails.
Throughout our conversation, we look at the vital role of support systems during moments of crisis. From the unexpected intervention of a gentle Bernese dog named Nebo to the profound impact of recognizing suicide risk among loved ones, these personal stories underscore the importance of being a safe haven for those in need. We discuss how proactive communication and direct engagement can be life-saving, especially for students far from home who may be struggling silently. By fostering awareness and equipping young people with the tools to support their peers, we can make a significant difference in preventing tragedies.
Finally, we delve into the challenges faced by faculty in supporting student mental health amidst an already demanding academic environment. Peter candidly shares the emotional toll of balancing personal and professional responsibilities, particularly in the shadow of the COVID-19 pandemic. As we explore the necessity of compassion and presence without the pressure to fix everything, you'll hear inspiring stories of advocacy and change. We leave you with a reminder of the importance of creating inclusive environments and invite you to explore additional resources and stories of empowerment on our website, Recovery Diaries.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
I'm delighted to have as myguest for today Peter Lehman.
He's a writer and Englishprofessor living in Utah and
he's doing wonderful things inhis classroom to destigmatize
mental health by openlydisclosing his own challenges
(00:23):
with depression and anxiety.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast health,empowerment and change.
(01:05):
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make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
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(01:31):
Peter Lehman, thank you so muchfor being here.
It is a delight to see yourface.
I know this is just going to beaudio only so other people
can't see your face, but I can,and when I was editing your
essay back in 2019, all of ourediting work is just done over
email, so I really don't have achance to communicate with
(01:51):
people by face and voice, andit's just such a wonderful
opportunity to share space withyou in this way.
Peter Leman (01:59):
Well, thank you so much.
I truly appreciate it and, yeah, it's nice to reconnect after a
few years.
Gabe Nathan (02:05):
So you are a university professor in Utah,
correct?
Peter Leman (02:11):
Yes, that's right.
Gabe Nathan (02:12):
Okay, and that's who you were when you wrote this
essay for us.
And one of the things that'sodd for me about working with
writers and everyone is comingto either mental health advocacy
or just sharing their storyfrom a different perspective.
For some people, it's theirvery first time talking publicly
(02:34):
.
Some people are quote likeprofessional mental health
advocates and it's their career,it's their business.
Um, I never know what happensto people after we hit publish
and we publicize their essay andyou know it lives on the
website forever.
Um, but part of the joy ofdoing this podcast is
(02:58):
reconnecting with people andfinding things out about what
has transpired in the last fewyears.
And my first question to you isone of the things I was curious
about when I was rereading youressay to prepare for today,
just to re-familiarize myselfwith it.
Did you receive any pushbackfrom the university or from
(03:20):
anyone individually maybe acolleague after publishing your
essay, because I suddenly feltthis surge of anxiety about that
.
Oh Good God, did Pete have anynegative repercussions?
I just want to know None.
Peter Leman (03:36):
Actually, I mean that's a really good question,
but I've received zero pushback.
It's only ever been positive,at least in the sense that
people were, you know, expressgratitude for the essay, for the
effect that it had on them, butI never received any pushback
(03:59):
whatsoever, I think.
Yeah, I mean I got emails fromuniversity administrators, I got
emails from our counselingcenter.
I get emails from students fromfaculty, from alumni, and it
was all positive.
So a lot of it was sad, ofcourse, because the response was
(04:21):
often thank you for sharingyour story, can I share mine?
And of course, you know, I, Iinvite them to, and, and often
those stories are quite sad, butit was, it was overwhelmingly
positive.
Gabe Nathan (04:34):
I'm I'm really glad to hear that and I I it's so
interesting to me that you usethe word sad to describe people
coming to you with their ownstories, because of course it's
not the fact of people coming toyou with their own stories,
because of course it's not thefact of people coming to you
with their own stories, that'sjoyful and wonderful.
But of course it's the contentand it reminds me a lot of how
(04:58):
our site got started.
So our site was an outgrowth ofa documentary film that was
made in 2008 or 2009 about ourfounders' mental health
challenges, and he took thisfilm to film festivals all
around the country and eveninternationally, and at
Talkbacks it was constantlypeople saying I watched your
(05:20):
film and then wanting to sharetheir own stories.
Peter Leman (05:24):
And it's just like that's the power of this, right.
I mean, that's the power of ofgetting these stories out there.
Is that it, it?
It enables other people, ithelps them see, oh, maybe this
is a step that I can take towardhealing Right, sharing my story
with someone who whounderstands, someone who's going
to listen and uh, yeah, andalso.
Gabe Nathan (05:43):
I look at it too as a step of I sometimes use the
analogy of an egg that we allhave these little shells around
us, right, and it just takes alittle tap, tap, tap on that
shell for that bird to crawl outand go me too, because we
really I don't know so.
So I have depression, you havedepression and depression.
(06:08):
In spite of what we know aboutdepression you can name all the
statistics of how many peoplelive with it in America, how
many people live with itinternationally I still feel
isolated, I still feel alone,and I mean you have that
experience as well?
Peter Leman (06:27):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely no.
That exact thought has occurredto me that so many people are
being more and more open aboutthis, which is wonderful, and
yet, yeah, I mean when thedepression kicks in, when the
episode comes on, yeah, you feelcompletely alone and it's hard
to remember or to sort of yeah,to remember that, even though
(06:51):
other people are out there orthat talk about today and
wondering what I would share.
What's happened over the lastfew years has this incredible
ability to sort of change yourperception of reality in the
moment when I've had episodeswhere and it's whether it's that
(07:37):
I feel completely alone or Ifeel just so dark and that
nothing has meaning, and I'm inthat space and it just feels
like it's always going to belike this, it will always be
like this, and then when I comeout of it, I realize, oh okay,
I'm fine, I'm okay, that's notthe case.
But in that moment I mean it'sreally striking to me and I wish
(07:58):
I understood better kind ofwhat was happening
neurologically, but it feelslike I'm literally seeing the
world differently in that space.
And yeah, and I think thatisolation is a huge part of that
Whatever's going on there, thatperception of experience, of a
sense of loneliness feels soreal in that moment right, and
(08:22):
it's really hard to get beyondthat.
Gabe Nathan (08:25):
My sense of it is that depression is almost
dysmorphic.
It really does alter yourperception of self, of
environment, of the feelings ofyour loved ones.
Everything gets invalidated orturned on its head and it feels
so fucking real.
Yeah, totally Anything.
You're impervious to anythinganybody says, to any form of
(08:48):
like I said earlier statistics,and this is how many people are
suffering from it.
And depression an episode isnot forever and things will
change and things will getbetter.
You can negate anything and italmost feels like you're driving
behind.
Peter Leman (09:08):
You're driving a car and depression just pushes
you out of the driver's seat andsays I'm driving now and you're
just sitting there, yeah, andyou can't get control back until
I don't know, until you'vewaited long enough or until the
right moment comes, the rightintervention comes.
It just depends until the rightmoment comes, the right
intervention comes.
Gabe Nathan (09:26):
It just depends, and that is one of the.
To me it's one of the powerfultragedies of suicide because in
a way, you rob yourself or theindividual who takes their own
life is robbed of the chance toget through that.
They've almost been swallowedup by that dysmorphia and I
(09:49):
wonder if you've had experienceslike that that you feel
comfortable talking about.
Peter Leman (09:54):
Yeah, actually I hadn't planned on sharing this,
but now that you bring it up,this was a couple of years
before I wrote this essay.
I think a couple of yearsbefore I wrote this essay.
I think I was just reallystruggling.
I don't remember thecircumstances, I don't know that
that matters, but I foundmyself in one of these episodes
(10:19):
where I was just deeply, deeplydepressed and struggling and
feeling that isolation, feelingthat sense of you know, that
dysmorphic sense of you, knownot I mean detached from reality
, but as though we're in adifferent reality, right, and I
remember talking to my wife andone of the things that usually
helped was getting out.
(10:40):
We live next to a mountain andI'll go running, I'll go trail
running, I'll get the exercise,I'll get the blood pumping, the
endorphins pumping, and so I gotout, got up on the mountain,
and it wasn't helping, nothingwas helping.
And I got to this point where Iwas just feeling just so dark
and such a panic that I pickedup a rock and started cutting my
(11:01):
arm with it.
And I don't know, I don't knowwhy, I don't know that.
I can explain that or that ifit needs explanation, but it was
just.
I was just sort of in this dark, desperate place and cut myself
pretty badly and then sort of,you know, seeing the blood
started feeling a bit of shockand realizing, oh, you know,
(11:24):
this is a problem.
And I found this rock to sit onon the trail and I was sitting
there for a few minutes takingsome deep breaths, trying to
relax, trying to come back tothis big, beautiful Swiss
(11:47):
Bernese dog came around thecorner and just got right up in
my face and this dog justimmediately just got its big
nose in my face and licked myface as if to say I love you, I
love you, I love you.
And then went on its way you, Ilove you, I love you.
And then went on its way andthat pulled me out, like that
was.
(12:11):
I mean, that was kind of amiracle, right, I mean, I, I I
didn't expect that, I couldn'thave anticipated that, um, but
it was exactly.
I don't know, it was what Ineeded in that moment and uh,
and to have just this completelyloving animal.
It didn't know who I was, itdidn't care, it just wanted to
lick my face and say hi, andthen it went about its business
and I and I, and it helped mekind of reground myself and kind
(12:31):
of come out of that, get homeand talk to my wife and kind of
get the help that I needed to to, you know, understand what had
happened and and to, um, not letit happen again.
So, uh, I mean, and I I don'tknow if, if that dog hadn't
shown up, you know, I don't knowwhat would have happened.
I, like I said, I was in alittle bit of a state of shock
(12:53):
given what I'd done.
Uh, so, um, but but in thatmoment, I don't know, when you
asked that's, that was a storythat came to mind in that moment
.
It was just this kind ofbeautiful canine intervention,
natural born therapy dog.
(13:15):
Yeah, yeah, I found out laterher name was Nebo.
She lived down the street fromus and she actually got lost in
our yard once, and so I got tokind of save her and take her
home once as well.
Gabe Nathan (13:22):
It's a reciprocal life saving.
Peter Leman (13:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Gabe Nathan (13:27):
And I wonder, you know, if that wasn't life
licking your face, saying I loveyou, I love you, I love you.
Peter Leman (13:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, and I'm,
I'm grateful for that and andyeah, and when you, when we
think about people who don't orwho end up in that place, it's
just heartbreaking.
When there are cases when thereisn't someone or something there
to kind of help those people,and what I do, given the fact
(14:01):
that my own children have mentalhealth struggles as well and so
many of my students, thatmoment, right that, knowing what
that place is like and knowinghow powerful it was for me to
have you know something show upand kind of pull me out of it.
I, you know, I worry aboutpeople who get to that place and
(14:25):
maybe don't have something topull them out of it, right,
maybe don't have that, and Ithink that's part of what
motivates me to try to you know,help students and others kind
of prepare to sort of be, youknow, prepared to you know deal
with those kinds of situationsTo put themselves.
I mean, I didn't consciouslyput myself in a situation where
you know an animal was going tohelp me, a situation where you
know an animal was going to helpme, but but I can imagine
others putting themselves in asituation where you know they
(14:47):
couldn't get a friend or afamily member or somebody you
know who who can respond whenthey need it.
Another, another experience.
And I have a family member I'llI'll just be quick with this
but a family member who and thiswas even longer ago, but who
suicidal and was in a really,really panicked, desperate state
(15:09):
.
And I was in a different stateand somebody told him his
ex-girlfriend and this was partof what precipitated it, but she
convinced him to call me and Igot him on the phone and just
tried to keep him on the phoneand just tried to keep him
(15:29):
talking.
And keep him talking and gotanother phone and had my wife
call family members and friendsand I kept him talking until I
got him home and waiting, therewere family members ready to to
help him and sort of catch him.
Um and uh, that was.
(15:53):
That was really hard, cause Iwasn't there.
You know, I wasn't, I wasn'tthere.
But but one of the things thathe said later was how, how much
it meant to him to realize, uh,how quickly uh people were ready
to to to be there to catch him,how quickly we responded.
And it wasn't just me, it wasmy parents, it was my other
siblings, like we were there.
(16:16):
I'm really grateful for myfamily.
We're not perfect, but we haveeach other's backs in a crisis
and it scares me that there arepeople who don't have that right
, who don't have that kind of,and so that's, I don't know, one
of the things that I try, hopeI can be, you know, for a
student who maybe doesn't havethat.
(16:37):
And that's one of the difficultthings when students, you know,
are at university, they're farfrom home, they, you know, maybe
don't know who they can turn toif they get to that place.
And so I hope that I can, and Iand other professors and others
, as we kind of continue workingon this issue and continue, you
(17:00):
know, promoting conversationsand talking about it and
encouraging awareness, that kindof functionally as a university
, we can sort of be that safetynet, we can sort of be there for
those students, because toooften they don't have that
support when they most need it.
Gabe Nathan (17:22):
I have a lot to say about what you just said, but
one of the things that reallystands out to me is this idea of
being a safe person, and Ithink that there are people who
and this isn't put down toanyone, but like, if I put a
certain insignia on my socialmedia profile, or I wear a
(17:43):
certain pin, or I do this, I dothat, then I'm showing that I'm
a certain pin, or I do this, Ido that, then I'm showing that
I'm a safe person.
You're showing it on day one inyour classroom.
I think your students know thatimmediately about you, and
we'll get to your essay a littlelater, where you write about
(18:03):
how you do that and why.
And you know you are that thatbig dog in the woods, um, for
your students, I think it's it'svery obvious and very clear and
very powerful, um, and I thinkthey have a lot to be thankful
for um setting foot in yourclassroom.
(18:25):
The other thing I wanted to saywell, it's the truth is your
story about your family memberand everybody kind of rallying
around them demonstratessomething that I think a lot of
people don't know but reallyneed to, and it's that anyone
can prevent suicide.
(18:46):
I think there are people whobelieve, well, that's the realm
of crisis counselors, or mobilecrisis or psychiatric emergency
response units, or it's only thecall takers at 988.
It is not true.
We you me, the sound engineeron the other end here, my
neighbors across the street, mywife downstairs we are the front
(19:10):
lines of suicide prevention inour own little communities of
the people who we know, thepeople with whom we work, our
families and our friends.
We are the ones listening, wehear things, we see things, we
notice things.
And if we are educated and weknow what to listen, for what to
look for what to observebehavioral changes, things of
(19:36):
that nature, we can interveneand we can prevent suicide.
And I want people to feelempowered in that way and to
have that knowledge Absolutely,yeah, absolutely, yeah,
absolutely.
Peter Leman (19:47):
I, yeah, I mean, as you're talking about that,
literally, uh, friday night,saturday night, um, my daughter
got a text from a friend thatwas unusual.
It set off red flags for herand, and, uh, and she said I
think we need to go visit thisfriend.
And we asked, okay, what wasgoing on?
(20:08):
And she was saying how gratefulshe was for all of her friends
it was this text thread and howshe loves them all and
appreciates them all.
And she said she doesn't talklike this.
This doesn't sound like her.
Gabe Nathan (20:19):
Yeah, it sounds like a goodbye.
Something was wrong.
Peter Leman (20:21):
Yeah, it was a goodbye, and so we said, all
right, load up.
So we got in the car, picked upsome other people and went to
her house, made sure her parentswere aware of what was going on
, and my daughter went in andtalked to her and she was
writing notes, she was writinggoodbye letters.
I mean, it was kind of aserious situation.
(20:41):
It breaks my heart that mydaughter, who is, who is 16, and
this has happened before withanother friend and she was even
younger than that that this issomething that she's I don't
know as a kid, you know ishaving to to deal with.
But at the same time, I'm sograteful for her.
(21:02):
She is incredibly sensitive andshe recognizes this, you know.
She recognizes that, yeah, eachone of us it doesn't matter if
you're 16 or if you're 46 orwhatever right, whether you're a
therapist or not that if youknow the signs, if you know what
to look for, you can interveneand you can save somebody's life
(21:22):
.
Gabe Nathan (21:24):
Yeah, and it's incredible.
It's incredibly sad that shehad to be in that situation, but
it's incredibly powerful thatthat alarm bell went off and
knew what to do and did it.
Peter Leman (21:38):
Well, and it's partly because and this isn't I
mean, it's just what you saidbefore that you know when you're
educated right.
And we've done my wife and Ihave done a lot to be open with
our children about mental health, to be open with them about
suicidality and suicidalideation and signs to look for
Because of my experience I meanthey check in with me, I check
(21:59):
in with them, but it's also madethem very sensitive to the
people around them and they'vebeen there for friends in really
difficult times and I'mgrateful that they've embraced
that.
As difficult as it is, I thinkit's necessary that we you know
as many people as possible canyou know have those tools and
have that ability to recognizethe signs and step in when they
(22:22):
can.
Gabe Nathan (22:24):
Yeah, we're the safety net and, and you know to
your point of it, it sucks thatshe's 16 and has to do this.
I mean, my children are 12.
It sucks that they have to doactive shooter school drills you
know, totally, it's so, but wecan.
We can kick and scream about theworld that we live in or we can
work to change it.
Uh, and we can work to make thebest life that we can with what
(22:47):
we have.
Um, and I, you know.
Getting back to reaching out, Ithink there are also people who
fear what if I'm wrong?
What if I, you know, asksomeone if they're suicidal?
And I'm wrong.
And I had this experience withmy own father two months ago.
He sent me this text messagewhere he's like you know, I just
(23:08):
want you to know I'm so proudof you and I'm sorry for things
that I did, you know, when youwere a child, and I have so much
regret and I'm just asking foryour forgiveness.
And I was like, well, red flagcity here, this guy, what?
This was totally out of nowhere.
And I met up with him and Ilooked in my father's eyes and I
(23:31):
said are you thinking ofkilling yourself?
Um, and he was like what?
And I said well, you know,you're.
There's this that I've noticedabout you, this, that I've
noticed this about you, thatI've noticed about you this,
that I've noticed this about you, that I've noticed You're also
an older male.
You're a suicide loss, survivoryourself.
Your sister killed herself, sothat ups your risk.
You know, duh, duh, duh.
(23:52):
I was going through all thesepoints and you're sending me
this written fucking message ofI'm sorry and please forgive me.
So it sounds like someone istying up loose ends and is
preparing to say see you later.
And he had to reassure me.
He had other reasons for comingto me with that and that you
know I'm totally healthyphysically and mentally and
that's not blah, blah, blah.
But yeah, he was also verymoved that I cared enough to ask
(24:17):
him.
And the answer to what if I'mwrong, is who gives a shit if
you're wrong?
The question is not that, it'swhat happens if I do nothing,
and it is that.
Peter Leman (24:32):
I love how direct you were with him too.
I think we're worried.
We kind of walk on eggshells,you know.
We're sort of it is.
Obviously if someone is incrisis it's a sensitive issue,
but but that directness mattersand in that case, yeah, what if
you were wrong?
Then they know you care aboutthem.
Right, Then you know you'reworried about them and you're
thinking about them, and yeah,that's great, but but if you
(24:55):
decided, oh, I don't want totouch on this, then it leaves
the door open for tragedy, right, and that directness I mean in
my experience that's reallyimportant.
It's so much better and moreimportant to be direct with
people, to be blunt, than tosort of tiptoe around it.
Gabe Nathan (25:14):
And yeah, I've directly asked questions like
that to people before.
Use the language, use the, thedirect question, and you will
get a direct, truthful answer.
And then the question becomesthen if the answer is yes, what
do you do with that information?
And that's a whole other set ofeducation, and what your
options are varies by geographyand resources and all of that.
(25:36):
But there's always next stepsand I would love to know, before
we get into your essay youwrote this essay pre-COVID and
we've gone through this pandemicand I'm curious to hear from
you as a professor what changedfrom then to now in terms of
(26:03):
your own mental health, themental health of your students.
How did that impact things?
Peter Leman (26:11):
Yeah, oh boy, this answer to this could be an
entire podcast episode itself.
It's been a rough uh, what'swhat's?
It been four years or so, fouror five years?
Um, since then, uh, I'll talkpersonally and I'll talk about
the students, but my um, in themiddle of covid, my wife got a
(26:34):
cancer diagnosis.
Um, she's diagnosed with breastcancer and it was stage two, a
little beyond stage two.
But we found out she had one ofthe genes, the PALB2 cancer
gene, and so she ended upgetting a full double mastectomy
radiation therapy, chemotherapyand in the middle of that her
(26:56):
dad passed away and it was just,it was difficult, it was really
hard.
And in the middle of COVID, sowe were sort of limited.
You know, when she had hercancer appointments, you know I
couldn't visit her all the timeor, you know, other people
couldn't be there to support her, and it was definitely
challenging.
And then to have her dad passaway in the middle of that, and
(27:17):
um, and my kids, my sonespecially were, you know, he
was really close to him and sothat was hard.
Uh, my kids are both reallysocial, uh, they love their
friends and um and COVID took atoll, uh, being isolated, uh,
not being in the classroom, notbeing with their friends was was
extremely difficult and I think, um, not just them, but, but
students their age, you know who, and I think not just them, but
(27:37):
students their age who livedthrough that.
I think we're still seeing theeffects of that and I think we
won't really fully understandthe impact of that for years to
come.
I'm personally kind of a youknow, sort of an introvert and I
didn't mind, you know, havingto be around lots of people all
the time and spending more timein nature and stuff, but of
(27:59):
course we were dealing withcancer in the middle of that, so
that was challenging.
We got through it and I thinkas a family we grew closer and
we know how to survive together.
But my students yeah, I mean thesort of rates of so at BYU and
(28:20):
I assume it's similar to otheruniversities if a student has a
disability of some kind, theycan get an accommodation letter
and there's an office, and Ialready received a lot of those
before COVID, but there wereeven more, I think, after.
And I think it was yeah, it washard.
Students didn't like I think itwas hard.
Yeah, it was hard.
(28:40):
Students didn't like I think itwas hard for them to be to take
classes all online.
I think a lot of studentsreally miss the in-person
interaction.
But then when they came back toin-person interaction, there
was still anxiety about thedisease and there was anxiety
about, you know, being aroundpeople and it took some
adjusting.
Those first few classes backafter the pandemic were really
difficult and for a couple ofyears and I don't know that the
(29:01):
rates have changed I don't havethe data on it but certainly
there were kind of increasingnumbers of students with mental
health challenges, withdepression, anxiety, who would
get accommodation letters or whoyou know didn't know they could
get an accommodation letter butwould would come and talk to me
(29:22):
or would have a breakdown orsomething like that.
And so, yeah, it was, it wastough, it was, it was a
difficult period.
I mean, I think it wasdifficult for you know,
everywhere.
But in terms of this specificissue, I certainly saw an
increase in people who struggledand but I but I think that also
for me and I think for otherfaculty that I know and other
professors, that it made us kindof hypervigilant as well, about
(29:45):
about looking for science,about reaching out to students,
following up with studentsoutside the classroom One of my
colleagues who was also a bigadvocate for these kinds of
things.
We talk about how we essentiallyhave three full-time jobs as a,
as a teacher, but also you'reexpected to publish and research
, where I work, and then you'realso expected to do a lot of
(30:05):
administrative work and I've gotextra administrative work right
now.
But then on top of that, we'realso the front line in helping
students who are struggling withmental health, and that,
especially if you're committedto it, especially if you are
making a concerted effort to beaware of and reach out to those
(30:25):
students, that's anotherfull-time job.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I mean, there's stillchallenges, you know, and
there's still a lot of studentswho come forward, a lot of
students who need help.
So I don't know if it's gonedown at all.
(30:48):
I think it might be a littlebit difficult to tell because
I'm so open about it in myclasses.
So a lot of people you knowcome to me and talk to me and
are open.
So I don't know exactly whatall the other professors'
experiences are.
But anyway, yeah, short version.
Covid was hard.
I'm glad we're past it, butwe're still dealing with the
effects.
Gabe Nathan (31:10):
But my, my only follow-up question to that,
before we get into your essay,is so as as, as an individual
whose you know wife had her lifethreatened by cancer during a
pandemic and an individual wholives with depression himself uh
, an individual who has threefull-time jobs at the moment.
(31:32):
That's overstating, I suppose,but well, first, probably
understating it, actually, if,if we're really honest about it,
who helps you and who helpsyour colleagues?
Because I'm hearing a lot aboutthe students and you know you
and and other like-mindedfaculty, but I suspect that you
(31:52):
know burnout and exhaustion andfeelings of overwhelm, um, and
also probably feelings ofdespair.
You know I can't do enough forthese students.
I feel like I'm failing them,all of those thoughts.
So who's helping you guys?
Peter Leman (32:13):
Thank you for asking that.
First of all, that's incrediblythoughtful and it reminded me
of the first time a studentasked me that and you know and
this was after COVID We'dreturned to classes.
This might have been in 2022.
And it was a class where Idon't know.
(32:34):
It was a really positiveexperience, that class, and
there were several students inthat class that had mental
health issues, and we had lotsof conversations in class and
outside of class, and one ofthose students at one point saw
me outside of class and said howare you?
Are you doing okay, can I checkin with you?
And I started to cry because Iwas like nobody ever asks me
(32:59):
that, you know, like it's makingme cry right now just thinking
about her.
I really appreciated it becauseI, I don't know.
I mean, I ask for help when Ineed it, when I feel like I
really need it, it when I feellike I really need it, um, but I
, but I, you know, with mywife's cancer, uh, I she was the
(33:29):
priority, a hundred percent.
She was the priority Um and uhand I wasn't the one who needed
taken care of.
I mean, I guess that was kindof how I um thought of it at the
time that she was the one whoneeded taken care of, and so I
didn't whatever I was dealingwith, whatever I was struggling
with, I uh didn't talk about itbecause, because she needed the
help and needed the support.
Um, we actually had aconversation about this a couple
of days ago or a week or so ago.
Uh, we were kind of relivingsome of that and thinking about
(33:53):
some of those experiences.
And she said uh, I realizedthat we never really talked
about the fact that that wasprobably really hard for you too
.
And I said, yeah, but I don'tknow.
Thank you for acknowledging that, but I don't know what to say
to that, because I was like, butyou were the priority, right,
(34:14):
your life was in danger andthat's.
But it was hard, it was, but Ikind was and so, yeah, to answer
your question, I think a lot offaculty we look out for each
other, we take care of eachother.
I've got some really closefriends here on campus that we
check in with each other, wesupport each other, we are each
(34:37):
other's lifelines in a lot ofways.
But I think that is somethingthat can be overlooked and I
think burnout is a real thing.
Emotional exhaustion is a realthing.
One of these colleagues lastyear, I believe, really kind of
reached the end of his rope.
(34:58):
Last year, I believe reallykind of reached the end of his
rope.
There were just so manystudents and he was taking so
much on and he was there foreverybody, but it was just
overwhelming and he was workingmiracles with those students,
but he needed somebody there forhim, needed somebody there for
(35:19):
him too and fortunately hisfamily was supportive and I was
there to try to help him as muchas possible.
But uh, but yeah, he needed tokind of step back and and
realize that he needed to carefor himself as well.
So, um, yeah, I mean it's.
Yeah, sometimes I think we'rethere for each other and
sometimes I think some of usjust kind of work in isolation
(35:39):
hoping for the best.
But that's certainly somethingthat could change.
Yeah, but thank you for askingthat.
Gabe Nathan (35:46):
That's really thoughtful, you're very welcome.
And it is hard to be acaretaker, whether it's a
partner with cancer or it'svulnerable students.
It seems like one of theeasiest things to do is to
(36:08):
forget yourself and pick up thephone and take the call, whether
you're emotionally ready for itor not, or answer the email,
even if you have capacity for itor not, and it's like, well,
well, I just have to do this.
Um, and what I've had to learnin that caretaker role and as a
suicide awareness advocate is itdoesn't always have to be me
(36:30):
and it can't always be me.
Sometimes I can do a warmhandoff to someone else, I can
say I do not have capacity forthis right now.
It doesn't mean that I don'tlove you and that I don't care,
but I can't be the help that youneed right now because of shit
that is happening with me.
Here's someone else and it justwe want to take on everything
(36:57):
and everyone, but it's just not,it's not possible.
But I want to talk about kindof what is possible and I mean I
think that leads really neatlyinto your essay, because it's a
very small thing that you do inyour classroom, but it's also
(37:21):
enormous and I think it's awonderful example to other
people for how I'm alwaystalking about how can we move
the needle in terms ofconversations around mental
health, conversations aroundsuicide and its prevention, and
there are lots of ways to movethe needle just a little bit,
(37:43):
and I think one of the mostpowerful ways to do that is
through disclosure and creatingan environment of listening and
seeing, and I feel like that'swhat you do in your classroom.
So I would like you very muchto please read your essay At
(38:04):
this point.
It's called why I Tell myUniversity Students I'm
Depressed.
Peter Leman (38:11):
January 7th 2019, 9.30am.
I've just kicked off day one ofa writing class for English
majors with a review of standardacademic policies.
It's dull but necessarym.
I've just kicked off day one ofa writing class for English
majors with a review of standardacademic policies.
It's dull but necessary stuff.
I've gone over a hundred timeswith previous classes, but when
I come to the last policy, I'msuddenly nervous.
I've taught for over a decadeeverything from freshman survey
courses to graduate seminars andgiven presentations around the
(38:34):
world.
I don't get nervous.
I try to keep my voice steadyas I read the university's
single paragraph mental healthpolicy.
I emphasize its importance andthen tell my students for the
first time in my career that Ilive with severe depression and
anxiety and have for as long asI can remember.
About a month before this, astudent took her own life on
campus.
She survived the initialattempt but died a day later in
(38:57):
the hospital.
It was devastating, deeply,viscerally devastating.
This wasn't the first suicideon campus.
Certainly, utah as a whole hasan alarmingly high suicide rate
and suicide is the secondleading cause of death for
college-age students, but it wasthe first I knew of since I
began working there in 2011.
It happened in a building withheavy foot traffic and windows
(39:17):
for walls.
People saw it was all we couldtalk about or think about for
weeks.
Some of us never stoppedthinking about it.
I didn't know the studentpersonally, but there was no
relief in knowing or not knowing.
She was one of ours, or atleast she was supposed to be.
We failed her as a campuscommunity.
Part of me demanded to know whyand how, but another part of me
(39:38):
already knew.
For one thing, we weren'thaving the right conversation,
or really any conversation atall.
Every year I see more and morestudents fall behind.
I see more and more studentsask for extended deadlines and
fail to meet them.
I see more and more simply stopcoming to class.
On the one hand, I feel it isimportant to challenge students.
College should be hard.
It should push young studentsto their limits.
(40:04):
On the other, what good is anyof it if students are pushed too
far?
I'm deeply troubled by mycomplicity in this crisis and
its concomitant culture ofsilence, particularly because I
understand on an experientiallevel what many students are
going through.
I understand that we can't justexpect them to deal with it.
I can't do anything for thestudent who took her life.
We failed her and I grieve thatfact.
But for others like her, itisn't too late.
(40:25):
Fortunately, many universities,including my own, have
committed increased resources tocounseling and other services,
but not every student feelsempowered to reach out for help.
Stigmas still linger.
Shame holds people back.
Silence persists.
So on January 7th 2019, I triedto break one small corner of
that silence.
(40:47):
As a child growing up in ruralIdaho, I was considered moody.
I don't think we had any otherlanguage for it.
I was often told to cheer upand get over it.
I had spells of sadness andanger that would seem to come
out of nowhere.
I remember being seven or eightand crying as I sat next to my
mother who cried for me.
She was young and frightenedand did what she could, but
neither of us really understoodwhat was happening.
(41:08):
I fought my moodiness throughhigh school and college, but it
wasn't until I was 26 years oldthat someone finally wondered
out loud if I had clinicaldepression.
I reluctantly met with atherapist and she confirmed the
diagnosis.
It helped to know, I suppose,but it was also difficult to
accept.
At first I was ashamed.
After a few therapy sessions Ithought I could handle it on my
(41:28):
own, I didn't fully understandthat this wasn't something that
would go away.
I began graduate school andenjoyed periods of relative
stability, but then, for reasonsI didn't understand, I would go
into stretches of deepdepression, sometimes for days
or weeks.
My rural upbringing taught methe value of hard work, so I
consistently dragged myself toclass, but I was often miserable
(41:49):
.
I interpreted these feelings asevidence that I was stupid,
that I didn't belong in graduateschool and that I was a
worthless person.
I met with a doctor and startedmedication.
The effect was positive, thoughI knew it wasn't a cure.
I graduated and started work asa professor On some level.
I think I kept waiting for thatmoment when I'd finally be happy
(42:10):
.
I was married to an amazingwoman.
We had two beautiful children.
I had a great job.
People reminded me of thesefacts when I bottomed out.
You have every reason to behappy, they'd say.
Guilt and shame only compoundedmy feelings of worthlessness
and depression.
I still kept my nose to thegrindstone and in fact, getting
lost in work sometimes helpeddistract me from what was going
(42:31):
on inside.
But I still believed I wasn'tand never would be good enough.
I wondered sometimes if myfamily would be better off if I
were dead.
I started meeting with a newtherapist.
His approach was different.
We dove into the science.
We talked about brain chemistryand body chemistry and I
finally started to understandwhat was going on inside.
(42:52):
I started to develop strategiesfor identifying periods of
depression before they began andfor coping with those periods
when they happened.
I'm not always good at this.
I've never cancelled classbecause of depression, but on
days I don't teach, I oftencan't get out of bed.
I can't bring myself to do thethings I know will help, like
exercise and meeting up withfriends.
I've made excuses to mystudents for why I wasn't able
(43:15):
to grade their assignments asquickly as I should have.
Some days I make it to work butI close my office door, keep
the lights off and simply stareat the wall.
Despite, or perhaps because ofthese experiences, I have grown
in my understanding of andsympathy for those who struggle
with mental illness.
I know what it's like to hateyourself and believe you're not
up to the challenge.
I know what it's like to wakeup sad and feel like the sadness
(43:38):
is everywhere and will never goaway.
I know what it's like to feelthat inexplicable pain inside
and that terrifying longing tomake it go away whatever it
takes.
But I also know that the onlyway I got through these moments
was because I opened up topeople I loved and trusted and
learned how to keep goingwhatever it takes.
When I finished telling ashorter and much less polished
(43:59):
version of this story on thatfirst day in 2019, a young woman
in the back had tears in hereyes.
I worried I had said the wrongthing or took it too far.
Other students looked at meintently, some looked away.
I wasn't sure the speech didwhat I'd hoped and I obsessed
about it the rest of the day,but I believed it was the right
thing ultimately.
So I shared it again in myother class, and again the next
(44:21):
semester and every semestersince.
Despite the limited effect oneperson can have in culture
change, students started torespond.
Many have met with me to saywhat it meant to them to hear a
professor talk about his mentalhealth.
This has been rewarding, butheavy.
I'm even more aware of how manystudents carry tragedy
immediate and potential, withinthem each day.
(44:42):
But the goal, at least to beginwith, was not to reduce that
number.
The goal was to help create acircle of light that students
could look to and hopefully bewilling to step within, a space
cleared of shame and loneliness,where understanding, compassion
and love could thrive.
I've heard powerful andheartbreaking stories from
students in the last year and ahalf, but one in particular
stands out.
(45:02):
She was in that first classmaybe the one with tears in her
eyes, I can't remember for sure,but I do remember that she
approached me after that day and, with difficulty, started to
share her own experiences withmental illness.
She was, and still is, abrilliant writer and thinker and
often asked for feedback on herwork.
So we met frequently.
I didn't try to counsel her, ofcourse, but I did what I could
(45:23):
as her professor and fellowtraveler on the difficult road
of mental health recovery.
Not long after the class ended,she sent me a letter, which I
keep close by to this day, inwhich she gave me permission to
share.
It reads in part At thebeginning of the semester, you
spoke to us about some of yourmental health challenges.
This helped me trust you as ateacher and accept some of my
(45:44):
own difficulties, as well ashave hope for my future.
Since April, I have receivedneeded treatment and I now feel
better than I thought possible.
Please know how grateful I amfor your help and example.
Having a professor whoempathized with what I was
experiencing meant the world.
Part of me would still ratherkeep my story to myself.
If asked why, I would say Ivalue my privacy.
(46:06):
But if I'm being honest, I'mstill insecure about sharing it.
But what I've learned from thisstudent and her classmates is
too important not to share, andwhat I've learned is precisely
that we must share.
Stigma and shame and the fearof being perceived as incapable
of keeping up have made mentalhealth conversations at
universities particularlydifficult, but it is a problem
everywhere.
(46:26):
Fortunately, things areimproving and will continue to
improve as long as we keeptalking.
The more we talk, the biggerthat circle of light gets, the
more people it encompasses.
The more we talk, the morelikely the edge of that circle
will, at the right moment, reachsomeone who desperately needs
it.
Gabe Nathan (46:45):
Peter, I love this essay.
I love what you do with yourplatform and your platform, um,
and your platform is yourclassroom.
It is, it is your space to useas you see fit, and you are
(47:07):
responsible, um for, for how youlead, and I think that this
essay is so demonstrative of thefact that you lead with love
and compassion and understanding, and it's a pretty
extraordinary thing, thank you.
Peter Leman (47:24):
Thank you.
I truly appreciate that.
I'm just trying to do the bestI can, I think, but I'm so
grateful to you for yourplatform as well and the fact
that you let me kind ofessentially collaborate with you
and getting this message outand be part of the wonderful
project that you're doing thatreaches so many people as well
(47:47):
it was a pleasure the first time, an even greater pleasure this
time.
Gabe Nathan (47:51):
and before you go, I want to point out something
that's really really importantthat you talk about in your
essay.
You mentioned how, in times whenyou've been bottoming out,
there have been people who havepointed out to you all the
wonderful things in your lifeyour wife, your two children,
your stable job and actually Irecorded another interview
(48:15):
earlier today where I had asimilar conversation with that
guest too, about how in thesuicide prevention community,
it's like one of the biggestdon'ts.
When you're talking to someoneand they're telling you they're
not doing well and they'retelling you they're depressed,
or even they're telling youthey're suicidal, don't go to
(48:35):
them and say, yeah, but you'vegot a wife and you've got two
great kids and you've got a job.
We all know that you don't needto tell someone that they have
all of these things, because, athey know it anyway and B
guilting someone about feelingdepressed or trying to guilt
someone into staying alive, allit does is it just puts shame on
(49:01):
top of whatever they're feelingalready.
And it's pretty.
I understand where themotivation to say those things
come from, but if you reallypull back the camera and look at
it.
It's a pretty unhelpful thingto do, and I'm just grateful
that you pointed that out inyour essay.
Peter Leman (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there was some specific
experiences that that came from.
And yeah, I agree, I mean, inthe case of some people who've
said those things to me, at thetime, of course, I wasn't
grateful for what they said, andnot that I'm grateful now, but
(49:43):
I've tried to wonder why didthey say that?
And I think often, especiallyif it's someone who doesn't
understand, I think they'rescared.
I think sometimes those peopleare scared and they're speaking
from fear rather than compassionor understanding, and maybe in
their mind, that's the thing tosay positivity.
(50:06):
Let me just throw positivity atyou.
Gabe Nathan (50:07):
Look at all the good things in your life and
worth living for, and let mestop this as fast as I can,
because I'm scared of what thisperson's telling me and I kind
of want to put a cork in thebottle and we don't have to do
that.
We can't do it anyway and youknow, the thing is to just be,
(50:28):
just be with that person, bewith them in their time of need,
their time of struggle.
You don't have to fix it, youcan't fix it, but you can just
be with them.
Peter Leman (50:38):
Yeah, do we have time that I could share a quick
experience, please?
Yes, along those lines.
Yeah, this was another thingthat happened during, you know,
since I published this essay andyou know, after I kind of got
back from COVID.
I was walking across campusbeautiful day and then I heard
this high pitched noise and itsounded like I wondered if there
(51:00):
was a band or something thatwas playing or there's some kind
of singing going on.
But as I got closer I realizedsomeone was screaming, screaming
at the top of her lungs, kindof terrified, terrifying screams
.
And I started running toward itand other people running toward
it, and I got up next to thisbuilding and there was a student
(51:20):
huddled down on the ground,curled up, just screaming
repeatedly at the top of herlungs.
Right, she could hardly evenbreathe, no idea what was going
on.
Nobody else was around andpeople were trying to get her to
talk, but she's not respondingbecause she's she's in a full
panic attack.
Uh and uh and I I mean, I didn'tknow what to do uh, um, exactly
(51:45):
, but I, but I sat down next toher, uh, and I said, hey, I'm
going to put my arm, put my handon your shoulder, uh, I hope
that's okay.
Put my hand on your shoulder.
I hope that's okay, try tobreathe with me.
And then I said and I justtried to say, let's slow down
your breathing, can you feelthat?
(52:05):
And I tried to tap her shoulderin rhythm and let's slow your
breathing down.
And slow your breathing down.
And slowly the screams stoppedand she was kind of hiccuping,
but she managed to start takingdeep breaths and taking deep
breaths and taking deep breathsand she eventually kind of
pulled out of it.
And then we just sat there andI didn't try to interrogate her
(52:26):
or anything, we just sat thereand just kind of breathed
together and she started talkingand she said I don't, I don't
know what.
What happened?
She was brand new student,freshman, and had walked through
this loud building and allkinds of new students and she
just had a full panic attack andshe'd never had one before and
(52:47):
she was just absolutelyterrified.
But in that moment she justneeded somebody to sit with her
right and to breathe with heruntil she got through it.
And I'm grateful that I wasthere to help her.
Other people were there.
I'm grateful that helped.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing but I was like, okay,
let's just try to breathe, right, let's you know.
(53:09):
And but yeah, you're absolutelyright, I mean, I think, but I
don't know, that it's, it's hardto do.
It was so uncomfortable, I meanthat it was so unexpected, out
of the ordinary and and, like Isaid, there were other people
there and nobody knew.
Should we call an ambulance?
Should we call the er?
What's?
You know what's going on?
And, um, uh, fortunately nobodytried.
(53:34):
You know, yelling at her oranything like that, which, of
course, wouldn't have helped.
Or telling her, you know, begrateful that you're at BYU or
you're be grateful that you'rehere.
Gabe Nathan (53:42):
Slapping her, throw water on her Snap out of it.
Peter Leman (53:46):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (53:46):
All those things we see in the movies, yeah.
Peter Leman (53:48):
Yeah, exactly, and uh, she just needed somebody to
be with her for a minute andyeah, and I think that same
thing.
Yeah, it's uncomfortable.
Silence is uncomfortable.
When someone is sad, whensomeone is depressed, when
they're in a panic attack, it isuncomfortable.
But we have to be willing tosit with that discomfort and be
(54:09):
there for someone else and nottry to fill that discomfort or
assuage that discomfort by youdiscomfort by projecting our
insecurities and saying youshould be grateful for this, you
should be grateful for thatright, be okay with that
discomfort, because sitting inthat space with that person when
they're in that position iswhat they need more than
(54:31):
anything.
Gabe Nathan (54:33):
Yeah, I think a huge part of suicide prevention
is not telling people you arenot alone, which I see so much
on bumper stickers and on socialmedia.
It's showing people you are notalone.
Peter Leman (54:47):
They need to feel that.
Gabe Nathan (54:50):
And that's what you do on the first day of class
and that's what you did withthat young woman on campus, and
I think we can all do that witheach other in various ways.
We can find those ways to dothat for people.
Peter Leman (55:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
She's doing great now.
By the way, she made the Dean'sList in 2022, graduating in the
next semester in civilengineering.
She's a rock star.
Gabe Nathan (55:14):
And she may not have thought any of it was
possible there on the ground,but you know yeah, for sure.
Yeah, she made it.
Um, and I'm so grateful to you,um, for who you are and what
you do and how you are, and um,thank you for being here and
spending some time with me.
Peter Leman (55:32):
My pleasure.
Yeah, Thank you so much forhaving me.
It's.
You know, these things are hardto talk about, but it's so
important.
Gabe Nathan (55:46):
And I'm so grateful that you, you know, are giving
me the opportunity to be part ofthis.
What a joy to talk to a personwho exemplifies the meaning of
educator.
Peter Lehman is a writer andEnglish professor living in Utah
and an extraordinary humanbeing doing such wonderful
things in his life and in hisclassroom to help students feel
not alone.
Thank you for being on the show, peter.
(56:07):
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
Remind you to check out ourwebsite, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
(56:27):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
I'm delighted to have as myguest for today Peter Lehman.
He's a writer and Englishprofessor living in Utah and
he's doing wonderful things inhis classroom to destigmatize
mental health by openlydisclosing his own challenges
(00:23):
with depression and anxiety.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast health,empowerment and change.
(01:05):
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
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You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Course, make sure to like,share and subscribe.
(01:31):
Peter Lehman, thank you so muchfor being here.
It is a delight to see yourface.
I know this is just going to beaudio only so other people
can't see your face, but I can,and when I was editing your
essay back in 2019, all of ourediting work is just done over
email, so I really don't have achance to communicate with
(01:51):
people by face and voice, andit's just such a wonderful
opportunity to share space withyou in this way.
Peter Leman (01:59):
Well, thank you so much.
I truly appreciate it and, yeah, it's nice to reconnect after a
few years.
Gabe Nathan (02:05):
So you are a university professor in Utah,
correct?
Peter Leman (02:11):
Yes, that's right.
Gabe Nathan (02:12):
Okay, and that's who you were when you wrote this
essay for us.
And one of the things that'sodd for me about working with
writers and everyone is comingto either mental health advocacy
or just sharing their storyfrom a different perspective.
For some people, it's theirvery first time talking publicly
(02:34):
.
Some people are quote likeprofessional mental health
advocates and it's their career,it's their business.
Um, I never know what happensto people after we hit publish
and we publicize their essay andyou know it lives on the
website forever.
Um, but part of the joy ofdoing this podcast is
(02:58):
reconnecting with people andfinding things out about what
has transpired in the last fewyears.
And my first question to you isone of the things I was curious
about when I was rereading youressay to prepare for today,
just to re-familiarize myselfwith it.
Did you receive any pushbackfrom the university or from
(03:20):
anyone individually maybe acolleague after publishing your
essay, because I suddenly feltthis surge of anxiety about that
.
Oh Good God, did Pete have anynegative repercussions?
I just want to know None.
Peter Leman (03:36):
Actually, I mean that's a really good question,
but I've received zero pushback.
It's only ever been positive,at least in the sense that
people were, you know, expressgratitude for the essay, for the
effect that it had on them, butI never received any pushback
(03:59):
whatsoever, I think.
Yeah, I mean I got emails fromuniversity administrators, I got
emails from our counselingcenter.
I get emails from students fromfaculty, from alumni, and it
was all positive.
So a lot of it was sad, ofcourse, because the response was
(04:21):
often thank you for sharingyour story, can I share mine?
And of course, you know, I, Iinvite them to, and, and often
those stories are quite sad, butit was, it was overwhelmingly
positive.
Gabe Nathan (04:34):
I'm I'm really glad to hear that and I I it's so
interesting to me that you usethe word sad to describe people
coming to you with their ownstories, because of course it's
not the fact of people coming toyou with their own stories,
because of course it's not thefact of people coming to you
with their own stories, that'sjoyful and wonderful.
But of course it's the contentand it reminds me a lot of how
(04:58):
our site got started.
So our site was an outgrowth ofa documentary film that was
made in 2008 or 2009 about ourfounders' mental health
challenges, and he took thisfilm to film festivals all
around the country and eveninternationally, and at
Talkbacks it was constantlypeople saying I watched your
(05:20):
film and then wanting to sharetheir own stories.
Peter Leman (05:24):
And it's just like that's the power of this, right.
I mean, that's the power of ofgetting these stories out there.
Is that it, it?
It enables other people, ithelps them see, oh, maybe this
is a step that I can take towardhealing Right, sharing my story
with someone who whounderstands, someone who's going
to listen and uh, yeah, andalso.
Gabe Nathan (05:43):
I look at it too as a step of I sometimes use the
analogy of an egg that we allhave these little shells around
us, right, and it just takes alittle tap, tap, tap on that
shell for that bird to crawl outand go me too, because we
really I don't know so.
So I have depression, you havedepression and depression.
(06:08):
In spite of what we know aboutdepression you can name all the
statistics of how many peoplelive with it in America, how
many people live with itinternationally I still feel
isolated, I still feel alone,and I mean you have that
experience as well?
Peter Leman (06:27):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely no.
That exact thought has occurredto me that so many people are
being more and more open aboutthis, which is wonderful, and
yet, yeah, I mean when thedepression kicks in, when the
episode comes on, yeah, you feelcompletely alone and it's hard
to remember or to sort of yeah,to remember that, even though
(06:51):
other people are out there orthat talk about today and
wondering what I would share.
What's happened over the lastfew years has this incredible
ability to sort of change yourperception of reality in the
moment when I've had episodeswhere and it's whether it's that
(07:37):
I feel completely alone or Ifeel just so dark and that
nothing has meaning, and I'm inthat space and it just feels
like it's always going to belike this, it will always be
like this, and then when I comeout of it, I realize, oh okay,
I'm fine, I'm okay, that's notthe case.
But in that moment I mean it'sreally striking to me and I wish
(07:58):
I understood better kind ofwhat was happening
neurologically, but it feelslike I'm literally seeing the
world differently in that space.
And yeah, and I think thatisolation is a huge part of that
Whatever's going on there, thatperception of experience, of a
sense of loneliness feels soreal in that moment right, and
(08:22):
it's really hard to get beyondthat.
Gabe Nathan (08:25):
My sense of it is that depression is almost
dysmorphic.
It really does alter yourperception of self, of
environment, of the feelings ofyour loved ones.
Everything gets invalidated orturned on its head and it feels
so fucking real.
Yeah, totally Anything.
You're impervious to anythinganybody says, to any form of
(08:48):
like I said earlier statistics,and this is how many people are
suffering from it.
And depression an episode isnot forever and things will
change and things will getbetter.
You can negate anything and italmost feels like you're driving
behind.
Peter Leman (09:08):
You're driving a car and depression just pushes
you out of the driver's seat andsays I'm driving now and you're
just sitting there, yeah, andyou can't get control back until
I don't know, until you'vewaited long enough or until the
right moment comes, the rightintervention comes.
It just depends until the rightmoment comes, the right
intervention comes.
Gabe Nathan (09:26):
It just depends, and that is one of the.
To me it's one of the powerfultragedies of suicide because in
a way, you rob yourself or theindividual who takes their own
life is robbed of the chance toget through that.
They've almost been swallowedup by that dysmorphia and I
(09:49):
wonder if you've had experienceslike that that you feel
comfortable talking about.
Peter Leman (09:54):
Yeah, actually I hadn't planned on sharing this,
but now that you bring it up,this was a couple of years
before I wrote this essay.
I think a couple of yearsbefore I wrote this essay.
I think I was just reallystruggling.
I don't remember thecircumstances, I don't know that
that matters, but I foundmyself in one of these episodes
(10:19):
where I was just deeply, deeplydepressed and struggling and
feeling that isolation, feelingthat sense of you know, that
dysmorphic sense of you, knownot I mean detached from reality
, but as though we're in adifferent reality, right, and I
remember talking to my wife andone of the things that usually
helped was getting out.
(10:40):
We live next to a mountain andI'll go running, I'll go trail
running, I'll get the exercise,I'll get the blood pumping, the
endorphins pumping, and so I gotout, got up on the mountain,
and it wasn't helping, nothingwas helping.
And I got to this point where Iwas just feeling just so dark
and such a panic that I pickedup a rock and started cutting my
(11:01):
arm with it.
And I don't know, I don't knowwhy, I don't know that.
I can explain that or that ifit needs explanation, but it was
just.
I was just sort of in this dark, desperate place and cut myself
pretty badly and then sort of,you know, seeing the blood
started feeling a bit of shockand realizing, oh, you know,
(11:24):
this is a problem.
And I found this rock to sit onon the trail and I was sitting
there for a few minutes takingsome deep breaths, trying to
relax, trying to come back tothis big, beautiful Swiss
(11:47):
Bernese dog came around thecorner and just got right up in
my face and this dog justimmediately just got its big
nose in my face and licked myface as if to say I love you, I
love you, I love you.
And then went on its way you, Ilove you, I love you.
And then went on its way andthat pulled me out, like that
was.
(12:11):
I mean, that was kind of amiracle, right, I mean, I, I I
didn't expect that, I couldn'thave anticipated that, um, but
it was exactly.
I don't know, it was what Ineeded in that moment and uh,
and to have just this completelyloving animal.
It didn't know who I was, itdidn't care, it just wanted to
lick my face and say hi, andthen it went about its business
and I and I, and it helped mekind of reground myself and kind
(12:31):
of come out of that, get homeand talk to my wife and kind of
get the help that I needed to to, you know, understand what had
happened and and to, um, not letit happen again.
So, uh, I mean, and I I don'tknow if, if that dog hadn't
shown up, you know, I don't knowwhat would have happened.
I, like I said, I was in alittle bit of a state of shock
(12:53):
given what I'd done.
Uh, so, um, but but in thatmoment, I don't know, when you
asked that's, that was a storythat came to mind in that moment
.
It was just this kind ofbeautiful canine intervention,
natural born therapy dog.
(13:15):
Yeah, yeah, I found out laterher name was Nebo.
She lived down the street fromus and she actually got lost in
our yard once, and so I got tokind of save her and take her
home once as well.
Gabe Nathan (13:22):
It's a reciprocal life saving.
Peter Leman (13:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Gabe Nathan (13:27):
And I wonder, you know, if that wasn't life
licking your face, saying I loveyou, I love you, I love you.
Peter Leman (13:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, and I'm,
I'm grateful for that and andyeah, and when you, when we
think about people who don't orwho end up in that place, it's
just heartbreaking.
When there are cases when thereisn't someone or something there
to kind of help those people,and what I do, given the fact
(14:01):
that my own children have mentalhealth struggles as well and so
many of my students, thatmoment, right that, knowing what
that place is like and knowinghow powerful it was for me to
have you know something show upand kind of pull me out of it.
I, you know, I worry aboutpeople who get to that place and
(14:25):
maybe don't have something topull them out of it, right,
maybe don't have that, and Ithink that's part of what
motivates me to try to you know,help students and others kind
of prepare to sort of be, youknow, prepared to you know deal
with those kinds of situationsTo put themselves.
I mean, I didn't consciouslyput myself in a situation where
you know an animal was going tohelp me, a situation where you
know an animal was going to helpme, but but I can imagine
others putting themselves in asituation where you know they
(14:47):
couldn't get a friend or afamily member or somebody you
know who who can respond whenthey need it.
Another, another experience.
And I have a family member I'llI'll just be quick with this
but a family member who and thiswas even longer ago, but who
suicidal and was in a really,really panicked, desperate state
(15:09):
.
And I was in a different stateand somebody told him his
ex-girlfriend and this was partof what precipitated it, but she
convinced him to call me and Igot him on the phone and just
tried to keep him on the phoneand just tried to keep him
(15:29):
talking.
And keep him talking and gotanother phone and had my wife
call family members and friendsand I kept him talking until I
got him home and waiting, therewere family members ready to to
help him and sort of catch him.
Um and uh, that was.
(15:53):
That was really hard, cause Iwasn't there.
You know, I wasn't, I wasn'tthere.
But but one of the things thathe said later was how, how much
it meant to him to realize, uh,how quickly uh people were ready
to to to be there to catch him,how quickly we responded.
And it wasn't just me, it wasmy parents, it was my other
siblings, like we were there.
(16:16):
I'm really grateful for myfamily.
We're not perfect, but we haveeach other's backs in a crisis
and it scares me that there arepeople who don't have that right
, who don't have that kind of,and so that's, I don't know, one
of the things that I try, hopeI can be, you know, for a
student who maybe doesn't havethat.
(16:37):
And that's one of the difficultthings when students, you know,
are at university, they're farfrom home, they, you know, maybe
don't know who they can turn toif they get to that place.
And so I hope that I can, and Iand other professors and others
, as we kind of continue workingon this issue and continue, you
(17:00):
know, promoting conversationsand talking about it and
encouraging awareness, that kindof functionally as a university
, we can sort of be that safetynet, we can sort of be there for
those students, because toooften they don't have that
support when they most need it.
Gabe Nathan (17:22):
I have a lot to say about what you just said, but
one of the things that reallystands out to me is this idea of
being a safe person, and Ithink that there are people who
and this isn't put down toanyone, but like, if I put a
certain insignia on my socialmedia profile, or I wear a
(17:43):
certain pin, or I do this, I dothat, then I'm showing that I'm
a certain pin, or I do this, Ido that, then I'm showing that
I'm a safe person.
You're showing it on day one inyour classroom.
I think your students know thatimmediately about you, and
we'll get to your essay a littlelater, where you write about
(18:03):
how you do that and why.
And you know you are that thatbig dog in the woods, um, for
your students, I think it's it'svery obvious and very clear and
very powerful, um, and I thinkthey have a lot to be thankful
for um setting foot in yourclassroom.
(18:25):
The other thing I wanted to saywell, it's the truth is your
story about your family memberand everybody kind of rallying
around them demonstratessomething that I think a lot of
people don't know but reallyneed to, and it's that anyone
can prevent suicide.
(18:46):
I think there are people whobelieve, well, that's the realm
of crisis counselors, or mobilecrisis or psychiatric emergency
response units, or it's only thecall takers at 988.
It is not true.
We you me, the sound engineeron the other end here, my
neighbors across the street, mywife downstairs we are the front
(19:10):
lines of suicide prevention inour own little communities of
the people who we know, thepeople with whom we work, our
families and our friends.
We are the ones listening, wehear things, we see things, we
notice things.
And if we are educated and weknow what to listen, for what to
look for what to observebehavioral changes, things of
(19:36):
that nature, we can interveneand we can prevent suicide.
And I want people to feelempowered in that way and to
have that knowledge Absolutely,yeah, absolutely, yeah,
absolutely.
Peter Leman (19:47):
I, yeah, I mean, as you're talking about that,
literally, uh, friday night,saturday night, um, my daughter
got a text from a friend thatwas unusual.
It set off red flags for herand, and, uh, and she said I
think we need to go visit thisfriend.
And we asked, okay, what wasgoing on?
(20:08):
And she was saying how gratefulshe was for all of her friends
it was this text thread and howshe loves them all and
appreciates them all.
And she said she doesn't talklike this.
This doesn't sound like her.
Gabe Nathan (20:19):
Yeah, it sounds like a goodbye.
Something was wrong.
Peter Leman (20:21):
Yeah, it was a goodbye, and so we said, all
right, load up.
So we got in the car, picked upsome other people and went to
her house, made sure her parentswere aware of what was going on
, and my daughter went in andtalked to her and she was
writing notes, she was writinggoodbye letters.
I mean, it was kind of aserious situation.
(20:41):
It breaks my heart that mydaughter, who is, who is 16, and
this has happened before withanother friend and she was even
younger than that that this issomething that she's I don't
know as a kid, you know ishaving to to deal with.
But at the same time, I'm sograteful for her.
(21:02):
She is incredibly sensitive andshe recognizes this, you know.
She recognizes that, yeah, eachone of us it doesn't matter if
you're 16 or if you're 46 orwhatever right, whether you're a
therapist or not that if youknow the signs, if you know what
to look for, you can interveneand you can save somebody's life
(21:22):
.
Gabe Nathan (21:24):
Yeah, and it's incredible.
It's incredibly sad that shehad to be in that situation, but
it's incredibly powerful thatthat alarm bell went off and
knew what to do and did it.
Peter Leman (21:38):
Well, and it's partly because and this isn't I
mean, it's just what you saidbefore that you know when you're
educated right.
And we've done my wife and Ihave done a lot to be open with
our children about mental health, to be open with them about
suicidality and suicidalideation and signs to look for
Because of my experience I meanthey check in with me, I check
(21:59):
in with them, but it's also madethem very sensitive to the
people around them and they'vebeen there for friends in really
difficult times and I'mgrateful that they've embraced
that.
As difficult as it is, I thinkit's necessary that we you know
as many people as possible canyou know have those tools and
have that ability to recognizethe signs and step in when they
(22:22):
can.
Gabe Nathan (22:24):
Yeah, we're the safety net and, and you know to
your point of it, it sucks thatshe's 16 and has to do this.
I mean, my children are 12.
It sucks that they have to doactive shooter school drills you
know, totally, it's so, but wecan.
We can kick and scream about theworld that we live in or we can
work to change it.
Uh, and we can work to make thebest life that we can with what
(22:47):
we have.
Um, and I, you know.
Getting back to reaching out, Ithink there are also people who
fear what if I'm wrong?
What if I, you know, asksomeone if they're suicidal?
And I'm wrong.
And I had this experience withmy own father two months ago.
He sent me this text messagewhere he's like you know, I just
(23:08):
want you to know I'm so proudof you and I'm sorry for things
that I did, you know, when youwere a child, and I have so much
regret and I'm just asking foryour forgiveness.
And I was like, well, red flagcity here, this guy, what?
This was totally out of nowhere.
And I met up with him and Ilooked in my father's eyes and I
(23:31):
said are you thinking ofkilling yourself?
Um, and he was like what?
And I said well, you know,you're.
There's this that I've noticedabout you, this, that I've
noticed this about you, thatI've noticed about you this,
that I've noticed this about you, that I've noticed You're also
an older male.
You're a suicide loss, survivoryourself.
Your sister killed herself, sothat ups your risk.
You know, duh, duh, duh.
(23:52):
I was going through all thesepoints and you're sending me
this written fucking message ofI'm sorry and please forgive me.
So it sounds like someone istying up loose ends and is
preparing to say see you later.
And he had to reassure me.
He had other reasons for comingto me with that and that you
know I'm totally healthyphysically and mentally and
that's not blah, blah, blah.
But yeah, he was also verymoved that I cared enough to ask
(24:17):
him.
And the answer to what if I'mwrong, is who gives a shit if
you're wrong?
The question is not that, it'swhat happens if I do nothing,
and it is that.
Peter Leman (24:32):
I love how direct you were with him too.
I think we're worried.
We kind of walk on eggshells,you know.
We're sort of it is.
Obviously if someone is incrisis it's a sensitive issue,
but but that directness mattersand in that case, yeah, what if
you were wrong?
Then they know you care aboutthem.
Right, Then you know you'reworried about them and you're
thinking about them, and yeah,that's great, but but if you
(24:55):
decided, oh, I don't want totouch on this, then it leaves
the door open for tragedy, right, and that directness I mean in
my experience that's reallyimportant.
It's so much better and moreimportant to be direct with
people, to be blunt, than tosort of tiptoe around it.
Gabe Nathan (25:14):
And yeah, I've directly asked questions like
that to people before.
Use the language, use the, thedirect question, and you will
get a direct, truthful answer.
And then the question becomesthen if the answer is yes, what
do you do with that information?
And that's a whole other set ofeducation, and what your
options are varies by geographyand resources and all of that.
(25:36):
But there's always next stepsand I would love to know, before
we get into your essay youwrote this essay pre-COVID and
we've gone through this pandemicand I'm curious to hear from
you as a professor what changedfrom then to now in terms of
(26:03):
your own mental health, themental health of your students.
How did that impact things?
Peter Leman (26:11):
Yeah, oh boy, this answer to this could be an
entire podcast episode itself.
It's been a rough uh, what'swhat's?
It been four years or so, fouror five years?
Um, since then, uh, I'll talkpersonally and I'll talk about
the students, but my um, in themiddle of covid, my wife got a
(26:34):
cancer diagnosis.
Um, she's diagnosed with breastcancer and it was stage two, a
little beyond stage two.
But we found out she had one ofthe genes, the PALB2 cancer
gene, and so she ended upgetting a full double mastectomy
radiation therapy, chemotherapyand in the middle of that her
(26:56):
dad passed away and it was just,it was difficult, it was really
hard.
And in the middle of COVID, sowe were sort of limited.
You know, when she had hercancer appointments, you know I
couldn't visit her all the timeor, you know, other people
couldn't be there to support her, and it was definitely
challenging.
And then to have her dad passaway in the middle of that, and
(27:17):
um, and my kids, my sonespecially were, you know, he
was really close to him and sothat was hard.
Uh, my kids are both reallysocial, uh, they love their
friends and um and COVID took atoll, uh, being isolated, uh,
not being in the classroom, notbeing with their friends was was
extremely difficult and I think, um, not just them, but, but
students their age, you know who, and I think not just them, but
(27:37):
students their age who livedthrough that.
I think we're still seeing theeffects of that and I think we
won't really fully understandthe impact of that for years to
come.
I'm personally kind of a youknow, sort of an introvert and I
didn't mind, you know, havingto be around lots of people all
the time and spending more timein nature and stuff, but of
(27:59):
course we were dealing withcancer in the middle of that, so
that was challenging.
We got through it and I thinkas a family we grew closer and
we know how to survive together.
But my students yeah, I mean thesort of rates of so at BYU and
(28:20):
I assume it's similar to otheruniversities if a student has a
disability of some kind, theycan get an accommodation letter
and there's an office, and Ialready received a lot of those
before COVID, but there wereeven more, I think, after.
And I think it was yeah, it washard.
Students didn't like I think itwas hard.
Yeah, it was hard.
(28:40):
Students didn't like I think itwas hard for them to be to take
classes all online.
I think a lot of studentsreally miss the in-person
interaction.
But then when they came back toin-person interaction, there
was still anxiety about thedisease and there was anxiety
about, you know, being aroundpeople and it took some
adjusting.
Those first few classes backafter the pandemic were really
difficult and for a couple ofyears and I don't know that the
(29:01):
rates have changed I don't havethe data on it but certainly
there were kind of increasingnumbers of students with mental
health challenges, withdepression, anxiety, who would
get accommodation letters or whoyou know didn't know they could
get an accommodation letter butwould would come and talk to me
(29:22):
or would have a breakdown orsomething like that.
And so, yeah, it was, it wastough, it was, it was a
difficult period.
I mean, I think it wasdifficult for you know,
everywhere.
But in terms of this specificissue, I certainly saw an
increase in people who struggledand but I but I think that also
for me and I think for otherfaculty that I know and other
professors, that it made us kindof hypervigilant as well, about
(29:45):
about looking for science,about reaching out to students,
following up with studentsoutside the classroom One of my
colleagues who was also a bigadvocate for these kinds of
things.
We talk about how we essentiallyhave three full-time jobs as a,
as a teacher, but also you'reexpected to publish and research
, where I work, and then you'realso expected to do a lot of
(30:05):
administrative work and I've gotextra administrative work right
now.
But then on top of that, we'realso the front line in helping
students who are struggling withmental health, and that,
especially if you're committedto it, especially if you are
making a concerted effort to beaware of and reach out to those
(30:25):
students, that's anotherfull-time job.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I mean, there's stillchallenges, you know, and
there's still a lot of studentswho come forward, a lot of
students who need help.
So I don't know if it's gonedown at all.
(30:48):
I think it might be a littlebit difficult to tell because
I'm so open about it in myclasses.
So a lot of people you knowcome to me and talk to me and
are open.
So I don't know exactly whatall the other professors'
experiences are.
But anyway, yeah, short version.
Covid was hard.
I'm glad we're past it, butwe're still dealing with the
effects.
Gabe Nathan (31:10):
But my, my only follow-up question to that,
before we get into your essay,is so as as, as an individual
whose you know wife had her lifethreatened by cancer during a
pandemic and an individual wholives with depression himself uh
, an individual who has threefull-time jobs at the moment.
(31:32):
That's overstating, I suppose,but well, first, probably
understating it, actually, if,if we're really honest about it,
who helps you and who helpsyour colleagues?
Because I'm hearing a lot aboutthe students and you know you
and and other like-mindedfaculty, but I suspect that you
(31:52):
know burnout and exhaustion andfeelings of overwhelm, um, and
also probably feelings ofdespair.
You know I can't do enough forthese students.
I feel like I'm failing them,all of those thoughts.
So who's helping you guys?
Peter Leman (32:13):
Thank you for asking that.
First of all, that's incrediblythoughtful and it reminded me
of the first time a studentasked me that and you know and
this was after COVID We'dreturned to classes.
This might have been in 2022.
And it was a class where Idon't know.
(32:34):
It was a really positiveexperience, that class, and
there were several students inthat class that had mental
health issues, and we had lotsof conversations in class and
outside of class, and one ofthose students at one point saw
me outside of class and said howare you?
Are you doing okay, can I checkin with you?
And I started to cry because Iwas like nobody ever asks me
(32:59):
that, you know, like it's makingme cry right now just thinking
about her.
I really appreciated it becauseI, I don't know.
I mean, I ask for help when Ineed it, when I feel like I
really need it, it when I feellike I really need it, um, but I
, but I, you know, with mywife's cancer, uh, I she was the
(33:29):
priority, a hundred percent.
She was the priority Um and uhand I wasn't the one who needed
taken care of.
I mean, I guess that was kindof how I um thought of it at the
time that she was the one whoneeded taken care of, and so I
didn't whatever I was dealingwith, whatever I was struggling
with, I uh didn't talk about itbecause, because she needed the
help and needed the support.
Um, we actually had aconversation about this a couple
of days ago or a week or so ago.
Uh, we were kind of relivingsome of that and thinking about
(33:53):
some of those experiences.
And she said uh, I realizedthat we never really talked
about the fact that that wasprobably really hard for you too
.
And I said, yeah, but I don'tknow.
Thank you for acknowledging that, but I don't know what to say
to that, because I was like, butyou were the priority, right,
(34:14):
your life was in danger andthat's.
But it was hard, it was, but Ikind was and so, yeah, to answer
your question, I think a lot offaculty we look out for each
other, we take care of eachother.
I've got some really closefriends here on campus that we
check in with each other, wesupport each other, we are each
(34:37):
other's lifelines in a lot ofways.
But I think that is somethingthat can be overlooked and I
think burnout is a real thing.
Emotional exhaustion is a realthing.
One of these colleagues lastyear, I believe, really kind of
reached the end of his rope.
(34:58):
Last year, I believe reallykind of reached the end of his
rope.
There were just so manystudents and he was taking so
much on and he was there foreverybody, but it was just
overwhelming and he was workingmiracles with those students,
but he needed somebody there forhim, needed somebody there for
(35:19):
him too and fortunately hisfamily was supportive and I was
there to try to help him as muchas possible.
But uh, but yeah, he needed tokind of step back and and
realize that he needed to carefor himself as well.
So, um, yeah, I mean it's.
Yeah, sometimes I think we'rethere for each other and
sometimes I think some of usjust kind of work in isolation
(35:39):
hoping for the best.
But that's certainly somethingthat could change.
Yeah, but thank you for askingthat.
Gabe Nathan (35:46):
That's really thoughtful, you're very welcome.
And it is hard to be acaretaker, whether it's a
partner with cancer or it'svulnerable students.
It seems like one of theeasiest things to do is to
(36:08):
forget yourself and pick up thephone and take the call, whether
you're emotionally ready for itor not, or answer the email,
even if you have capacity for itor not, and it's like, well,
well, I just have to do this.
Um, and what I've had to learnin that caretaker role and as a
suicide awareness advocate is itdoesn't always have to be me
(36:30):
and it can't always be me.
Sometimes I can do a warmhandoff to someone else, I can
say I do not have capacity forthis right now.
It doesn't mean that I don'tlove you and that I don't care,
but I can't be the help that youneed right now because of shit
that is happening with me.
Here's someone else and it justwe want to take on everything
(36:57):
and everyone, but it's just not,it's not possible.
But I want to talk about kindof what is possible and I mean I
think that leads really neatlyinto your essay, because it's a
very small thing that you do inyour classroom, but it's also
(37:21):
enormous and I think it's awonderful example to other
people for how I'm alwaystalking about how can we move
the needle in terms ofconversations around mental
health, conversations aroundsuicide and its prevention, and
there are lots of ways to movethe needle just a little bit,
(37:43):
and I think one of the mostpowerful ways to do that is
through disclosure and creatingan environment of listening and
seeing, and I feel like that'swhat you do in your classroom.
So I would like you very muchto please read your essay At
(38:04):
this point.
It's called why I Tell myUniversity Students I'm
Depressed.
Peter Leman (38:11):
January 7th 2019, 9.30am.
I've just kicked off day one ofa writing class for English
majors with a review of standardacademic policies.
It's dull but necessarym.
I've just kicked off day one ofa writing class for English
majors with a review of standardacademic policies.
It's dull but necessary stuff.
I've gone over a hundred timeswith previous classes, but when
I come to the last policy, I'msuddenly nervous.
I've taught for over a decadeeverything from freshman survey
courses to graduate seminars andgiven presentations around the
(38:34):
world.
I don't get nervous.
I try to keep my voice steadyas I read the university's
single paragraph mental healthpolicy.
I emphasize its importance andthen tell my students for the
first time in my career that Ilive with severe depression and
anxiety and have for as long asI can remember.
About a month before this, astudent took her own life on
campus.
She survived the initialattempt but died a day later in
(38:57):
the hospital.
It was devastating, deeply,viscerally devastating.
This wasn't the first suicideon campus.
Certainly, utah as a whole hasan alarmingly high suicide rate
and suicide is the secondleading cause of death for
college-age students, but it wasthe first I knew of since I
began working there in 2011.
It happened in a building withheavy foot traffic and windows
(39:17):
for walls.
People saw it was all we couldtalk about or think about for
weeks.
Some of us never stoppedthinking about it.
I didn't know the studentpersonally, but there was no
relief in knowing or not knowing.
She was one of ours, or atleast she was supposed to be.
We failed her as a campuscommunity.
Part of me demanded to know whyand how, but another part of me
(39:38):
already knew.
For one thing, we weren'thaving the right conversation,
or really any conversation atall.
Every year I see more and morestudents fall behind.
I see more and more studentsask for extended deadlines and
fail to meet them.
I see more and more simply stopcoming to class.
On the one hand, I feel it isimportant to challenge students.
College should be hard.
It should push young studentsto their limits.
(40:04):
On the other, what good is anyof it if students are pushed too
far?
I'm deeply troubled by mycomplicity in this crisis and
its concomitant culture ofsilence, particularly because I
understand on an experientiallevel what many students are
going through.
I understand that we can't justexpect them to deal with it.
I can't do anything for thestudent who took her life.
We failed her and I grieve thatfact.
But for others like her, itisn't too late.
(40:25):
Fortunately, many universities,including my own, have
committed increased resources tocounseling and other services,
but not every student feelsempowered to reach out for help.
Stigmas still linger.
Shame holds people back.
Silence persists.
So on January 7th 2019, I triedto break one small corner of
that silence.
(40:47):
As a child growing up in ruralIdaho, I was considered moody.
I don't think we had any otherlanguage for it.
I was often told to cheer upand get over it.
I had spells of sadness andanger that would seem to come
out of nowhere.
I remember being seven or eightand crying as I sat next to my
mother who cried for me.
She was young and frightenedand did what she could, but
neither of us really understoodwhat was happening.
(41:08):
I fought my moodiness throughhigh school and college, but it
wasn't until I was 26 years oldthat someone finally wondered
out loud if I had clinicaldepression.
I reluctantly met with atherapist and she confirmed the
diagnosis.
It helped to know, I suppose,but it was also difficult to
accept.
At first I was ashamed.
After a few therapy sessions Ithought I could handle it on my
(41:28):
own, I didn't fully understandthat this wasn't something that
would go away.
I began graduate school andenjoyed periods of relative
stability, but then, for reasonsI didn't understand, I would go
into stretches of deepdepression, sometimes for days
or weeks.
My rural upbringing taught methe value of hard work, so I
consistently dragged myself toclass, but I was often miserable
(41:49):
.
I interpreted these feelings asevidence that I was stupid,
that I didn't belong in graduateschool and that I was a
worthless person.
I met with a doctor and startedmedication.
The effect was positive, thoughI knew it wasn't a cure.
I graduated and started work asa professor On some level.
I think I kept waiting for thatmoment when I'd finally be happy
(42:10):
.
I was married to an amazingwoman.
We had two beautiful children.
I had a great job.
People reminded me of thesefacts when I bottomed out.
You have every reason to behappy, they'd say.
Guilt and shame only compoundedmy feelings of worthlessness
and depression.
I still kept my nose to thegrindstone and in fact, getting
lost in work sometimes helpeddistract me from what was going
(42:31):
on inside.
But I still believed I wasn'tand never would be good enough.
I wondered sometimes if myfamily would be better off if I
were dead.
I started meeting with a newtherapist.
His approach was different.
We dove into the science.
We talked about brain chemistryand body chemistry and I
finally started to understandwhat was going on inside.
(42:52):
I started to develop strategiesfor identifying periods of
depression before they began andfor coping with those periods
when they happened.
I'm not always good at this.
I've never cancelled classbecause of depression, but on
days I don't teach, I oftencan't get out of bed.
I can't bring myself to do thethings I know will help, like
exercise and meeting up withfriends.
I've made excuses to mystudents for why I wasn't able
(43:15):
to grade their assignments asquickly as I should have.
Some days I make it to work butI close my office door, keep
the lights off and simply stareat the wall.
Despite, or perhaps because ofthese experiences, I have grown
in my understanding of andsympathy for those who struggle
with mental illness.
I know what it's like to hateyourself and believe you're not
up to the challenge.
I know what it's like to wakeup sad and feel like the sadness
(43:38):
is everywhere and will never goaway.
I know what it's like to feelthat inexplicable pain inside
and that terrifying longing tomake it go away whatever it
takes.
But I also know that the onlyway I got through these moments
was because I opened up topeople I loved and trusted and
learned how to keep goingwhatever it takes.
When I finished telling ashorter and much less polished
(43:59):
version of this story on thatfirst day in 2019, a young woman
in the back had tears in hereyes.
I worried I had said the wrongthing or took it too far.
Other students looked at meintently, some looked away.
I wasn't sure the speech didwhat I'd hoped and I obsessed
about it the rest of the day,but I believed it was the right
thing ultimately.
So I shared it again in myother class, and again the next
(44:21):
semester and every semestersince.
Despite the limited effect oneperson can have in culture
change, students started torespond.
Many have met with me to saywhat it meant to them to hear a
professor talk about his mentalhealth.
This has been rewarding, butheavy.
I'm even more aware of how manystudents carry tragedy
immediate and potential, withinthem each day.
(44:42):
But the goal, at least to beginwith, was not to reduce that
number.
The goal was to help create acircle of light that students
could look to and hopefully bewilling to step within, a space
cleared of shame and loneliness,where understanding, compassion
and love could thrive.
I've heard powerful andheartbreaking stories from
students in the last year and ahalf, but one in particular
stands out.
(45:02):
She was in that first classmaybe the one with tears in her
eyes, I can't remember for sure,but I do remember that she
approached me after that day and, with difficulty, started to
share her own experiences withmental illness.
She was, and still is, abrilliant writer and thinker and
often asked for feedback on herwork.
So we met frequently.
I didn't try to counsel her, ofcourse, but I did what I could
(45:23):
as her professor and fellowtraveler on the difficult road
of mental health recovery.
Not long after the class ended,she sent me a letter, which I
keep close by to this day, inwhich she gave me permission to
share.
It reads in part At thebeginning of the semester, you
spoke to us about some of yourmental health challenges.
This helped me trust you as ateacher and accept some of my
(45:44):
own difficulties, as well ashave hope for my future.
Since April, I have receivedneeded treatment and I now feel
better than I thought possible.
Please know how grateful I amfor your help and example.
Having a professor whoempathized with what I was
experiencing meant the world.
Part of me would still ratherkeep my story to myself.
If asked why, I would say Ivalue my privacy.
(46:06):
But if I'm being honest, I'mstill insecure about sharing it.
But what I've learned from thisstudent and her classmates is
too important not to share, andwhat I've learned is precisely
that we must share.
Stigma and shame and the fearof being perceived as incapable
of keeping up have made mentalhealth conversations at
universities particularlydifficult, but it is a problem
everywhere.
(46:26):
Fortunately, things areimproving and will continue to
improve as long as we keeptalking.
The more we talk, the biggerthat circle of light gets, the
more people it encompasses.
The more we talk, the morelikely the edge of that circle
will, at the right moment, reachsomeone who desperately needs
it.
Gabe Nathan (46:45):
Peter, I love this essay.
I love what you do with yourplatform and your platform, um,
and your platform is yourclassroom.
It is, it is your space to useas you see fit, and you are
(47:07):
responsible, um for, for how youlead, and I think that this
essay is so demonstrative of thefact that you lead with love
and compassion and understanding, and it's a pretty
extraordinary thing, thank you.
Peter Leman (47:24):
Thank you.
I truly appreciate that.
I'm just trying to do the bestI can, I think, but I'm so
grateful to you for yourplatform as well and the fact
that you let me kind ofessentially collaborate with you
and getting this message outand be part of the wonderful
project that you're doing thatreaches so many people as well
(47:47):
it was a pleasure the first time, an even greater pleasure this
time.
Gabe Nathan (47:51):
and before you go, I want to point out something
that's really really importantthat you talk about in your
essay.
You mentioned how, in times whenyou've been bottoming out,
there have been people who havepointed out to you all the
wonderful things in your lifeyour wife, your two children,
your stable job and actually Irecorded another interview
(48:15):
earlier today where I had asimilar conversation with that
guest too, about how in thesuicide prevention community,
it's like one of the biggestdon'ts.
When you're talking to someoneand they're telling you they're
not doing well and they'retelling you they're depressed,
or even they're telling youthey're suicidal, don't go to
(48:35):
them and say, yeah, but you'vegot a wife and you've got two
great kids and you've got a job.
We all know that you don't needto tell someone that they have
all of these things, because, athey know it anyway and B
guilting someone about feelingdepressed or trying to guilt
someone into staying alive, allit does is it just puts shame on
(49:01):
top of whatever they're feelingalready.
And it's pretty.
I understand where themotivation to say those things
come from, but if you reallypull back the camera and look at
it.
It's a pretty unhelpful thingto do, and I'm just grateful
that you pointed that out inyour essay.
Peter Leman (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there was some specific
experiences that that came from.
And yeah, I agree, I mean, inthe case of some people who've
said those things to me, at thetime, of course, I wasn't
grateful for what they said, andnot that I'm grateful now, but
(49:43):
I've tried to wonder why didthey say that?
And I think often, especiallyif it's someone who doesn't
understand, I think they'rescared.
I think sometimes those peopleare scared and they're speaking
from fear rather than compassionor understanding, and maybe in
their mind, that's the thing tosay positivity.
(50:06):
Let me just throw positivity atyou.
Gabe Nathan (50:07):
Look at all the good things in your life and
worth living for, and let mestop this as fast as I can,
because I'm scared of what thisperson's telling me and I kind
of want to put a cork in thebottle and we don't have to do
that.
We can't do it anyway and youknow, the thing is to just be,
(50:28):
just be with that person, bewith them in their time of need,
their time of struggle.
You don't have to fix it, youcan't fix it, but you can just
be with them.
Peter Leman (50:38):
Yeah, do we have time that I could share a quick
experience, please?
Yes, along those lines.
Yeah, this was another thingthat happened during, you know,
since I published this essay andyou know, after I kind of got
back from COVID.
I was walking across campusbeautiful day and then I heard
this high pitched noise and itsounded like I wondered if there
(51:00):
was a band or something thatwas playing or there's some kind
of singing going on.
But as I got closer I realizedsomeone was screaming, screaming
at the top of her lungs, kindof terrified, terrifying screams
.
And I started running toward itand other people running toward
it, and I got up next to thisbuilding and there was a student
(51:20):
huddled down on the ground,curled up, just screaming
repeatedly at the top of herlungs.
Right, she could hardly evenbreathe, no idea what was going
on.
Nobody else was around andpeople were trying to get her to
talk, but she's not respondingbecause she's she's in a full
panic attack.
Uh and uh and I I mean, I didn'tknow what to do uh, um, exactly
(51:45):
, but I, but I sat down next toher, uh, and I said, hey, I'm
going to put my arm, put my handon your shoulder, uh, I hope
that's okay.
Put my hand on your shoulder.
I hope that's okay, try tobreathe with me.
And then I said and I justtried to say, let's slow down
your breathing, can you feelthat?
(52:05):
And I tried to tap her shoulderin rhythm and let's slow your
breathing down.
And slow your breathing down.
And slowly the screams stoppedand she was kind of hiccuping,
but she managed to start takingdeep breaths and taking deep
breaths and taking deep breathsand she eventually kind of
pulled out of it.
And then we just sat there andI didn't try to interrogate her
(52:26):
or anything, we just sat thereand just kind of breathed
together and she started talkingand she said I don't, I don't
know what.
What happened?
She was brand new student,freshman, and had walked through
this loud building and allkinds of new students and she
just had a full panic attack andshe'd never had one before and
(52:47):
she was just absolutelyterrified.
But in that moment she justneeded somebody to sit with her
right and to breathe with heruntil she got through it.
And I'm grateful that I wasthere to help her.
Other people were there.
I'm grateful that helped.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing but I was like, okay,
let's just try to breathe, right, let's you know.
(53:09):
And but yeah, you're absolutelyright, I mean, I think, but I
don't know, that it's, it's hardto do.
It was so uncomfortable, I meanthat it was so unexpected, out
of the ordinary and and, like Isaid, there were other people
there and nobody knew.
Should we call an ambulance?
Should we call the er?
What's?
You know what's going on?
And, um, uh, fortunately nobodytried.
(53:34):
You know, yelling at her oranything like that, which, of
course, wouldn't have helped.
Or telling her, you know, begrateful that you're at BYU or
you're be grateful that you'rehere.
Gabe Nathan (53:42):
Slapping her, throw water on her Snap out of it.
Peter Leman (53:46):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (53:46):
All those things we see in the movies, yeah.
Peter Leman (53:48):
Yeah, exactly, and uh, she just needed somebody to
be with her for a minute andyeah, and I think that same
thing.
Yeah, it's uncomfortable.
Silence is uncomfortable.
When someone is sad, whensomeone is depressed, when
they're in a panic attack, it isuncomfortable.
But we have to be willing tosit with that discomfort and be
(54:09):
there for someone else and nottry to fill that discomfort or
assuage that discomfort by youdiscomfort by projecting our
insecurities and saying youshould be grateful for this, you
should be grateful for thatright, be okay with that
discomfort, because sitting inthat space with that person when
they're in that position iswhat they need more than
(54:31):
anything.
Gabe Nathan (54:33):
Yeah, I think a huge part of suicide prevention
is not telling people you arenot alone, which I see so much
on bumper stickers and on socialmedia.
It's showing people you are notalone.
Peter Leman (54:47):
They need to feel that.
Gabe Nathan (54:50):
And that's what you do on the first day of class
and that's what you did withthat young woman on campus, and
I think we can all do that witheach other in various ways.
We can find those ways to dothat for people.
Peter Leman (55:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
She's doing great now.
By the way, she made the Dean'sList in 2022, graduating in the
next semester in civilengineering.
She's a rock star.
Gabe Nathan (55:14):
And she may not have thought any of it was
possible there on the ground,but you know yeah, for sure.
Yeah, she made it.
Um, and I'm so grateful to you,um, for who you are and what
you do and how you are, and um,thank you for being here and
spending some time with me.
Peter Leman (55:32):
My pleasure.
Yeah, Thank you so much forhaving me.
It's.
You know, these things are hardto talk about, but it's so
important.
Gabe Nathan (55:46):
And I'm so grateful that you, you know, are giving
me the opportunity to be part ofthis.
What a joy to talk to a personwho exemplifies the meaning of
educator.
Peter Lehman is a writer andEnglish professor living in Utah
and an extraordinary humanbeing doing such wonderful
things in his life and in hisclassroom to help students feel
not alone.
Thank you for being on the show, peter.
(56:07):
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
Remind you to check out ourwebsite, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
(56:27):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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