October 28, 2024 • 68 mins
Ever wondered how anxiety and creativity intersect? Join us as we sit down with the multi-talented Jerzy Jung, who opens up about her personal battles with anxiety, fear, and shame in the world of performing arts. Discover how the devastating loss of her father to cancer became a turning point in her mental health journey and creative endeavors. As we discuss the art of accepting compliments as gifts rather than dismissals, we explore the powerful impact of therapy and the shift in societal attitudes towards mental health from the late 90s to today.
Reflect on the enduring nature of anxiety with us, as Jerzy shares insights from her essay "Everything Will Kill You: Anxiety, Fear, and Shame on Stage." Growing up in a loving family didn’t shield her from the burden of hiding her anxieties, mistakenly believing they were uniquely hers. As we navigate through her stories, we uncover the hereditary aspect of anxiety and the importance of self-kindness and humor in managing mental health challenges. From childhood fears to the irrational worries amplified by shame, we learn how to focus on what can be controlled in the present.
Finally, we delve into the transformative power of music as a means of connection and self-discovery. Jerzy’s journey through grief and healing emphasizes the importance of showing up authentically, especially in creative pursuits like songwriting. With host Gabriel Nathan as a comforting anchor, we unpack the complexities of grief, control, and acceptance. This episode serves as a heartfelt reminder of the importance of presence, authenticity, and embracing our true selves, even amidst life's inevitable hardships.
https://www.instagram.com/jerzyjung/
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere On Recovery Diaries
In-Depth.
Today, we're going to betalking to Jerzy Jung.
She's a singer, songwriter,pianist and actor from New
Jersey.
Jersey wrote an essay for oursite in 2015 called Everything
(00:22):
Will Kill you Anxiety, Fear andShame on Stage, and we're going
to be talking to Jersey aboutanxiety, fear and shame.
Also about the loss of herfather to cancer and how she's
coped with that loss and thevarious challenges that life has
thrown her way in the decadessince she wrote her essay.
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
(00:44):
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
(01:04):
emerged.
We are so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film.
And you can find this podcastpretty episode, essay or film.
(01:26):
And you can find this podcastpretty much anywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Jerzy, thank you so much forbeing here on Recovery Diaries
(01:48):
In Depth.
It is a joy to be sitting heretalking to you.
Jerzy Jung (01:53):
You as well.
I'm getting emotional.
I'm so grateful that youreached out, because this was I
don't know if I can imagine amore perfect combination of all
my favorite things, so it was sospecial to get this call, thank
you.
Gabe Nathan (02:08):
Oh man.
Well, I want to tell you so.
When I first started workingfor Recovery Diaries, I was
working at a locked inpatientpsychiatric hospital during the
day and I would come home and Iwould edit essays at night, like
on a very, very part-time basis.
(02:29):
I would be working with maybetwo or three writers here and
there, and you were one of thefirst writers with whom I worked
, and the essay that you wrote,which we're going to be talking
about a little later and whichyou're going to be reading aloud
a little later, which I'm soexcited about, it's so.
(02:52):
It has such a unique voice, andI think that's a very
appropriate thing to say,because you have such a unique
voice, singing voice and the waythat you compose lyrics and the
way that you express yourself.
It was just really a joy towork on.
(03:15):
I don't think I ever told youthat, so I wanted to tell you
that now and just embarrass youpublicly.
I thought that that would be agood way to start.
Jerzy Jung (03:20):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It's no embarrassment at all.
I once had a friend who caughtme not fully receiving a
compliment and she gave mereally simple instruction that
I've always taken and she saidall you have to do is say thank
you, I received that.
Gabe Nathan (03:36):
Oh man, I'm going to pocket that.
Jerzy Jung (03:38):
It's good, right?
Because.
.
.
so thank you.
I receive it very much.
Gabe Nathan (03:44):
Yeah, but okay, you're welcome, and I also want
to hear what you were going tosay before about why is that
hard?
Jerzy Jung (03:51):
Oh yeah, awesome, thank you for asking.
I love this question.
Yeah.
I think it's a deservingness thing for a lot of
us.
Someone gives us a really nicecompliment and a piece of us
says that's not me, I'm not thatgood, and so a part of us is
(04:12):
uncomfortable accepting the oh,this person's being so generous
to me.
I can't simply just have thisright.
I have to give something back.
(04:32):
I'm not enough, it's not safefor me to receive, but when we
give somebody a really coolbirthday present and we've
worked really hard, no one wantssomeone then to take the gift
and like throw it away like ahot potato.
And so I think words, kindwords, are gifts in that way.
(04:52):
And so what do you do when youget a gift?
You don't say oh no, I don'twant it.
You look at it, you hold it andyou say this is so lovely.
Thank you so much.
Gabe Nathan (05:03):
I received this.
Jerzy Jung (05:08):
Yeah, I received, so it was the best advice.
And my boyfriend and I actuallyboth can struggle to really
believe receive.
And so we have a little bitwhere if I give him a nice
compliment and I notice maybehe's not like fully taking it,
I'll be like where'd you justput that?
And we both, we both sort ofpoint to our heart and we sort
(05:29):
of mime.
I put it right here and I didhear it and I kept it.
Gabe Nathan (05:34):
Oh man, that's, it's a wonderful practice and
it's a wonderful thing to bemindful of what we, what we do
with those compliments, what wedo with those, because they are
gifts.
They are little gifts and Iwonder if there's also something
to do with anxiety, that whenwe, when we receive a compliment
(05:59):
, it's like, oh well, what ifit's disingenuous?
What if they're just soothingmy ego?
What if they didn't really meanit?
What if?
Because that's, what if?
" is the big anxiety questionright?
And everything starts with whatif?
And I wonder if you have thatexperience too.
I know that's true for me.
What if they're bullshitting me?
What if they're telling me whatI want to hear?
(06:28):
So, yeah, what do you think?
Jerzy Jung (06:28):
Yeah, thank you for asking that.
These are such cool questions.
Where I am right now, I'vegotten myself to the place where
I just say, well, why wouldthey go to all that trouble
making something up?
Gabe Nathan (06:40):
That's a lot of work to bullshit me like that.
Jerzy Jung (06:42):
Yeah, like why would they?
That's a lot of trouble.
Why would they do that?
And that's taken time because,of course, the what-if voice
wants to just put us in theworst possible light, wants to
tell the worst story, wants tokeep us in this familiar place
of the world is bad and I amless than, so I guess maybe I
(07:11):
started using my powers as awriter to challenge these
stories and I was like thisstory sucks.
I feel bad when I tell this one.
Like, what's another?
Because I don't know, I reallydon't know, like maybe they
don't mean it, but I'll neverknow that.
So I'm like, if I'll just neverreally know, why don't I pick
the story?
That's the fun one, so..
.
Gabe Nathan (07:29):
Yeah, and you have the power to do that, and that's
, that's a lovely thing torecognize, right?
Because mental illness wants totake our power away and it
wants to shove us out of thedriver's seat and say, no, fuck
you, I'm driving, Um, but reallywe can say no, no, no, no, no,
no, no.
I can drive this car and I canmake a choice to go down this
road.
I don't have to go downnegativity alley.
(07:52):
I can go down not positivityhighway, but maybe like
reality-based lane.
You know, and I think so muchof my struggle with mental
illness is reality testing andasking myself questions like
(08:12):
well, would someone go throughall that effort to bullshit you?
Isn't it?
Is it possible that they'reactually being genuine?
Are you maybe overthinking this?
Are you maybe telling yourselfa story that you've told so many
times that you believe it?
But it may not be true?
And I wonder what is yourexperience with?
(08:37):
Do you have to reality testyourself?
Jerzy Jung (08:42):
I'm laughing right now because it's so much.
It's so much and I love.
.
.
Before I answer that, I justwant to spotlight how much I
enjoyed what you said.
Maybe you said something.
I've told myself the same storyso many times that I believe it
, and I thought that was sopowerful and smart that you said
(09:02):
that.
So I wanted to just give athumbs up to that, because
that's a lot of it sometimes is,this was never true, but I told
myself this I got the wrongidea and then it cemented.
I have to reality test all thetime.
(09:29):
This morning, you know, thenegative tape started playing of
who are you to be a guest on apodcast?
You're not going to do it right.
Gabe Nathan (09:32):
I was just going to ask if you're, are you doing it
right now, cause I am.
Jerzy Jung (09:37):
I did it all morning because and and I started to
get a little sassy with it I doa mixture of like sass and love
when I go to that place and so,first of all, that voice started
going before this interview.
That was just like who are youto do this?
You're not, you don't haveanything good to say.
(09:57):
And I have this thing where,when I feel that I'm like,
"Whatcha doing?
" To that voice, I'm like
Gabe Nathan (10:15):
Hey, gurl.
Jerzy Jung (10:15):
Yeah.
And then the voice is like well, I don't know.
I'm just kind of like shovingall things that are good down
the toilet bowl and I'm like, oh, let's see how's that going for
you, do you like that?
How'd that go the last timelike.
.
.
Gabe Nathan (10:26):
Yeah.
Jerzy Jung (10:27):
And I'll also ask the question because I I have to
give compassion when thathappens, because I used to try
to just be like shut up, shut up, stop it.
That didn't work.
There was still this sensitivepart of me that was crying for
something different.
So, um, I give love.
I have a couple phrases I'lluse a lot.
(10:49):
One is , and number two is I'llsay to myself I love you, you
care so much.
Gabe Nathan (10:58):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Jerzy Jung (10:58):
Because a lot of anxiety is.
I just care so much I want thisto go well, so badly, and I'm
terrified that I'm not going toperform, that I'm not going to
show up, that I'm going to letpeople down all of it.
So my reality testing a lot isjust really like sass mixed with
love, like, oh, I see you'retrying to, like, you know,
(11:22):
trying to put it all down thetoilet bowl again, aren't you?
Gabe Nathan (11:25):
That's cute, nice work, if you can get it.
Jerzy Jung (11:29):
Yeah.
And then I'll also say tomyself okay, I hear you, do you
want to stay here?
That's one of my favoritequestions to ask to myself.
All right, I'm not going toshame you, but like, do you want
to stay here?
And always the answer I feelfrom inside is definitely not,
most definitely not.
Gabe Nathan (11:49):
Okay.
So first thing that I want tosay is I hope that you will
consider writing a song calledSass and Love about that kind of
inner monologue and that workthat you're doing inside to talk
to that voice.
(12:10):
The other thing is you soundlike someone who's been in
therapy for a very long time.
Is that true?
Jerzy Jung (12:18):
That is true, it is.
Gabe Nathan (12:20):
Okay, well, can you talk a little bit about that?
Jerzy Jung (12:23):
Of course, and actually, yeah, I guess that's
right.
So I resisted therapy for along time.
I actually the first time Iever went was in college, and it
was because, yeah, it was.
And you know what's interestingis you and I, you know we're
the same generation and that wasnot as much of a thing, I think
(12:47):
, as it is now, and so it was alittle more mysterious.
It wasn't like everyone youknew was going, so I didn't know
you were going PS.
Yeah, right, yeah, and like now,it's just part of it, and I
love that it's part of it,because I don't think there
should ever be shame and shadow.
You know, obviously peopledeserve their privacy, but I
(13:08):
think it's cool that so manypeople are just like yeah, this
is part of my wellness plan.
Gabe Nathan (13:14):
Or I can't talk now because I'm going to therapy in
an hour.
You know, can we reschedulethis?
It's just part of the humanexperience, and it was not when
we were in college, for sure.
Jerzy Jung (13:26):
Yeah, so the first time I went was in college and
it was because a previousboyfriend encouraged me to go,
and so that was the first and Ireally enjoyed that.
I think I went, for I startedgoing maybe junior year and I
went the entire time throughcollege.
I started going maybe junioryear and I went the entire time
through college, then sort oftook a break.
(13:47):
But when my dad got sick justthe same week that we found out
that he had cancer, I just knew,Um, and I made that call and I
was like I need to go back, Idefinitely need to go back, and
so that was, I guess, 2014 or2015.
Um, and then I'm sort of on abreak, but I I've done some form
(14:14):
of whether talk therapy, Reiki,energy healing, coaching, so
yeah, pretty much since 2015,I've made having someone to talk
to a part of my life yeah, andI I want to say one thing about
the college mental healthexperience.
Gabe Nathan (14:36):
I don't know if you for your appointments if you
went through the front door orthe back door, but I will never
forget when I finally worked upthe nerve to go and make my
first appointment, I went inthrough the main entrance of the
health center and you know, ifyou remember you go into the
(14:58):
health center.
It's not the same anymore,obviously.
But to the left was like themedical stuff and to the right
were the counselor's office andthere was a desk there and a
receptionist and she and I umsaid what I was there for and I
made the appointment andeverything.
And I was about to leave andshe said oh, excuse me, by the
(15:20):
way, next time when you comeback for your appointment,
please feel free to use the rearentrance because there's a lot
of hedges and people won't beable to see you come in.
And I was so like I was like,oh, okay, okay.
And I left right and I didn'trealize until much later how
(15:44):
fucked up that was that theywere basically at the counseling
center.
They were basically telling youyou know, here's the sneaky way
to get in, so no one knows thatyou're going to therapy, which,
like, why shouldn't anybodyknow that we're going to therapy
?
But again, this was the late90s, into the early aughts, and
(16:06):
it was a very different scene.
I can't imagine them sayingthat to college students going
to the counseling center now,and it just strikes me as a
stark reminder of where we wereand how far we've come.
Jerzy Jung (16:23):
I think yeah, so fascinating.
I think the internet has helpeda lot.
You just see so much all overand I love that too.
I just love that it's becomingmore and more normal.
Gabe Nathan (16:37):
Okay, so I really want to talk about it.
When you say the internet, doyou mean social media?
Jerzy Jung (16:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Gabe Nathan (16:42):
Okay, good, so let's.
I'm really excited that youwant to talk.
You can like hear my voice allperked up now.
In my experience as a mentalhealth and suicide awareness
advocate, I hear people pulldown their pants and take a dump
on social media all the timeabout and talking about how
deleterious it is and how awfulit is and how it's bad for teens
(17:04):
and how it's bad for this andthat and how it's increasing
depression and it's increasingeating disorders and comparison
(17:26):
body image stuff and it's it'shorrible.
And who are struggling can findallies on social media living
with all over the world.
People can find families whentheir own families don't want
(17:50):
anything to do with them becausethey're LGBTQIA+, for whatever
the reason is, find informationabout things that they're scared
to ask their parents orwhomever, whomever.
And I just feel that we miss somuch when we make these like
reductive statements aboutsocial media.
(18:11):
We just like vilify it and I Iwould love to hear that's my
take on it.
But I want to hear from youwhat your experience has been,
because we have grown up withthis.
You know in the same way.
So, yeah, what's yourexperience been?
Jerzy Jung (18:29):
I think I can definitely see where it can be
negative, where it can beharmful, and it's tough.
I don't know what to say abouthow we keep people from the
damaging parts.
People from the damaging parts,um, cause, I definitely feel
(18:51):
those do exist, but I do feelthere's so much good, um, it has
been so wonderful for me tojust have a space where I can
write about these things andthen have other people see them,
and I've developed some reallyamazing community because of
(19:11):
social media.
On my private Facebook page, Igave myself a challenge to share
something of value every dayfor 365 days minimum, and I'm on
day 234 today, I think, andthat's just been really, really
good for my mental health.
(19:32):
Now I keep that really private.
That's just my personalFacebook page, so anybody that I
don't know doesn't get to comein, and so I think, as a really
sensitive person, I wouldprobably have a lot of trouble
if my socials weren't kind ofkept behind my own safe gate.
So, yeah, so I don't know thatit's possible to vilify all of
(19:56):
social media, because there'sthe kind that helps and there's
the kind that can cause harmyeah, the kind that can cause
harm.
So maybe it's not about sayingsocial media is the problem, but
saying we just really alwaysneed to take care to do whatever
we can to keep it healthy, keepit positive.
Gabe Nathan (20:19):
What did you share today?
I'm just curious.
Jerzy Jung (20:22):
Oh, I haven't yet.
Gabe Nathan (20:23):
Are you okay to share that?
Jerzy Jung (20:24):
Yeah, I haven't or actually, no, I usually post at
night, um, but I can.
I, uh, last night I posted apiece about my boyfriend, um, do
you want me to read it?
Gabe Nathan (20:38):
Yeah!
Jerzy Jung (20:38):
Yeah?
Okay, um, so, and some somedays I'll post a piece of
writing, other days I'll post avideo, um, but my yesterday, uh,
my boyfriend has just reallybeen lovely this week, cause
I've had a lot of stuff likethis where I have to get on a
call.
You know, I have to be ready,um, and he's had an easier not
(21:04):
fully easy week, but he's hadless, um, things like this to do
, and so so I wrote this piecethat I'll read right now about,
um, just the way he supported meand I wanted to sort of.
I had a big Zoom meeting toprepare for one where I had to
show up and lead.
(21:28):
I was rushing around the housewith half wet hair gulping down
Earl Grey tea.
I had exactly enough time tofinish blow drying, finish my
cup of tea and sit down.
Walter came over to me, gave mea hug and said let me feed you.
He made brunch while Iblow-dried.
What a man.
Here's what not to do whensomeone, out of the kindness of
(21:51):
their beautiful, pure heart,says let me feed you, don't feel
guilty.
It sours the sweetness that'sbeing offered.
Don't wonder if this could bereal.
It is real and it is happening.
Don't jump out of the presentmoment, even if it's
uncomfortable.
For many of us, receiving feelsuncomfortable or unsafe.
(22:13):
We feel like things are toogood somehow.
Like the other shoe will dropif we accept an amazing gift,
like we'll be punished forletting our guard down.
Don't apologize one milliontimes, say oh, you don't have to
do that.
Or rush to promise you'll paythat person back.
All of that is tossing the giftaway like a hot potato.
(22:34):
Hold a gift first.
Treasure the shit out of it.
It's not a hot potato, it's awarm one, meant to be held for a
long time, meant to be turnedover and over in your hands.
Every bit of it felt andbelieved in.
Tomorrow, our neighbor is makingus dinner.
She's been offering to do thisfor over a month.
(22:56):
This week we finally accepted.
We're going to let her feed us.
I know it's going to be lovely.
Grateful to this man for feedingme today.
It was so kind and so pure thatI almost didn't accept it At
first.
I hesitated, I'm pretty sure.
I said, oh, that's okay, it canprobably wait, I'm not that
hungry.
(23:16):
He said yes, you are, and I was.
If someone looks at you withlove in their eyes or a genuine
desire to give and says let mefeed you, let them Feel all of
the complicated feelings thatarise from letting yourself be
cared for, from seeing yourselfas worthy and deserving, from
(23:39):
letting things feel beautifulfor as long as you can and
receive with every cell in yourbody, with your whole mind and
your whole heart.
I know it's scary.
I know our minds want to jumpright to.
What if this gets taken away?
That's an understandable fear,but we can do it.
(23:59):
We can move through it andlearn another way.
Let yourself be fed and onceyou're full, like you've never
been full before, you can feedothers in the same pure and
beautiful way.
You deserve it.
We all do.
See you tomorrow.
Gabe Nathan (24:20):
Oh man, and treasure the shit out of it.
Jerzy Jung (24:24):
It's a warm potato.
Gabe Nathan (24:28):
Jerzy, thank you, and Walter, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for feeding thissuper cool human being.
But what I heard over and overagain in what you were reading
and this is not me trying to beslick and do a great segue, but
I heard anxiety, shame and fear.
(24:49):
What if this thing gets takenaway from me?
I feel guilty about it.
It's all there, everything thatwas in the title of your essay
from 2014.
It's 10 years and those thingsare still percolating and
(25:10):
they're still bubbling in yourbrain.
And that's the thing aboutmental health.
We're never cured.
There's no like recovery is.
It's a road that we're on.
We don't get out of the car andlike, oh, we're here.
All of that stuff's in thereall the time.
(25:32):
So if you're okay with readingagain after reading that, I
would love you to go into youressay.
It is called Everything WillKill You; Anxiety, Fear and
Shame on Stage.
And yeah, let's just hear it.
(25:52):
I'm so excited.
Jerzy Jung (25:57):
I'm laughing right now because I just had the
following thought I'm so nervousabout writing this piece on
anxiety.
Okay, stop, rewind, let's thinkabout this for a second.
Still the body, quiet the mind.
Breathe in for four counts,breathe out for eight.
(26:19):
Ask yourself does this reactiontruly fit the situation?
If not, remember to be kind toyourself.
Remember that shame is neverhelpful.
Remember Now.
Reframe the thought in yourmind.
(26:39):
Whatever you're worried aboutmay be a challenge, but you can
handle it.
List the reasons why.
Focus on facts and proof.
Think of all the challengesyou've successfully handled
before and finally, wheneverpossible, lovingly laugh at
yourself.
This is not the end of theworld.
(27:00):
It's okay to take yourself lessseriously.
Plus, it's very likely thatsomeday this struggle will be so
far behind in your rear viewthat it will be just as
hilarious as the time that youadorably weird and desperate
five-year-old that you were madenow what is famously known as
(27:22):
the Dinosaur Plan.
My name is Jerzy Jung.
I'm a singer, songwriter andpiano player who also loves
acting, dancing and musicproduction.
I've won awards for my writingand have also been too
intimidated to return calls frominterested people in the music
industry.
You can watch me on Netflixright now in a performance for a
(27:45):
production company that took methree years to work up the
courage to join.
I want to be a professionalartist more than I've ever
wanted anything else in my life,but for most of my life I've
been terrified to truly try toattain this goal.
In other words, I just might benormal.
(28:07):
Anxiety runs in my family.
I went through a period where Itried to really unpack this, to
figure out why.
These days I'm at a place whereI just accept that this is our
particular challenge to dealwith.
Somehow that acceptance of myhistory helps me to focus on
what I can control the presentand how I behave now.
(28:29):
I was raised by two incrediblyloving and attentive parents.
Anytime my sisters or I came tothem crying, they would stop,
listen and reassure us.
I remember my mom explainingconcepts like death and sex and
periods to us so that theywouldn't seem scary.
My dad would have funny littlephilosophical talks with us,
(28:51):
reminding us that it was okay tobe ourselves despite what
others around us were doing.
We all had our share ofpersonal quirks and challenges,
but we also shared plenty oflove, traditions and time to
express our goofy creativity.
My problem was just that from ayoung age, I felt like my
(29:12):
anxious feelings and fears wereshameful and I should hide them
whenever I could.
I had myself convinced thatit's okay to be yourself applied
to everyone but me.
I thought if people really gotto know me, they'd realize how
weird I was.
I didn't know any other kids atschool who worried about their
ceiling fan turning into amonster overnight or their house
(29:34):
burning down while they wereasleep inside.
I would get angry at myself forbeing weak or not normal and
thus began a cycle that lastedfor many years.
Anxiety would lead to shame.
Shame would lead to anger atmyself.
Anger would lead to silence,because I badly wanted to beat
(29:55):
back the feelings on my own,without help from anyone.
I was supposed to have it alltogether.
Recently, I told my mom thestory of the dinosaur plan and
she said why didn't you tell mewe could have sorted that out
within five minutes plan?
And she said why didn't youtell me we could have sorted
that out within five minutes?
We had a good laugh over itbecause, like many of the
(30:17):
obsessive fears that have takenroot in my head over the years,
in hindsight it was prettyridiculous.
Shame, however, was the matchthat turned that situation into
an uncontrollable fire.
The setting Mrs Kennedy'skindergarten class, stoy School,
south Jersey.
I'm five years old.
Our teacher is introducing usto a group of ancient creatures
(30:37):
called the dinosaurs.
They were big, powerful,ferocious.
Some ate just plants, butothers ate other creatures.
Oh, other creatures.
Oh, once upon a time thedinosaurs were in charge.
They roamed the earth doing bigand sometimes scary dinosaur
things.
They probably had bloodybattles in the mud.
(31:00):
Some of them could fly.
They died a long time ago.
After the dinosaur lesson, mostof my friends took note of this
information and then moved onwith their regularly scheduled
lives.
They took naps on theirbrightly patterned towels.
One lucky winner played therole of the nap fairy and
tiptoed around the class tappingheads to put people to sleep.
(31:21):
They ate their lunches andtraded apples for cookies.
They hugged stuffed dolls andmade up their own songs.
At playtime I lay down on mytowel and looked up at the
classroom ceiling, processing mypersonal takeaway from the
lesson.
Yes, the dinosaurs died, butMrs.
Kennedy never explicitly saidthat they weren't coming back.
(31:45):
I did not nap that day.
Why didn't I just ask if thiswas Sorry?
Why didn't I just ask if thisSorry, I gotta go back.
I'll go back a little bit of mytowel and looked up at the
(32:07):
classroom ceiling processing mypersonal takeaway from the
lesson.
Yes, the dinosaurs died, butMrs.
Kennedy never explicitly saidthat they weren't coming back.
I did not nap that day.
Why didn't I just ask if thiswas possible?
Why didn't I tell someone thatI needed help?
(32:29):
I guess that even at five Iknew that I.
I guess that even at five Iknew that what I was feeling had
a different vibe to it.
Once I started thinking aboutthe dinosaurs and the
uncertainty of their return, Icouldn't stop the thoughts from
coming.
We learned about what to do ifyou got lost at the park or at
(32:49):
the mall.
We learned about what to do ifyou got lost at the park or at
the mall find a police officeror a kind adult.
We watched movies about firenarrated by cartoon animals and
made escape plans with ourparents, but no one up to that
point had ever covered dinosaurswith us.
Was the dinosaur plan like thefire plan?
Maybe, except no, they wouldall be outside of the house.
It was enough to break a kid'sspirit and inspire lunchtime
(33:13):
cookie hoarding in case.
This was in fact the day thedinosaurs came back.
This was also one more thoughtto support my strengthening
belief that the world justwasn't safe.
My anxiety was born of along-held view that the world
was dangerous.
My anxiety was born of along-held view that the world
(33:45):
was dangerous, containingsituations and people I wasn't
capable of handling.
I especially struggled withthings that were uncomfortable
or unknown.
I was young.
I lost both of my grandparentsto cancer within a few years of
one another, and my dad nearlydied in a horrible car accident.
To be upset by these events wasnatural.
The difficulty for me was that,instead of coping and gradually
moving on, I got caught in anendless feedback loop of worry
(34:08):
and obsession, as usual, keepingas much of it to myself as I
could.
My attempts to disguise my fearswere not always effective.
I went through about a year ofintense separation anxiety,
where I was so scared to beapart from my parents and the
safety of my house that I oftencouldn't make it through a
school day, sleepovers orbirthday parties.
(34:31):
Forget it.
More often than not, I wouldwind up crying and calling my
mom or dad to come pick me upearly.
I would begin each event in anexcited, hopeful mood, but fear
and panic would soon wash overme, and I could only be calmed
by sliding into the back seat ofthe family car.
I felt embarrassed, but thecompulsion to escape back to
(34:56):
what I was familiar with alwayswon out.
I ate my feelings too.
Food was a comforting hobby,pleasurable and distracting.
I also hid myself in books.
I melted into other people'sstories and lives, successfully
shutting off the inner workingsof my own mind.
This wasn't all bad.
(35:16):
I became a strong reader andwriter.
My third grade class threw me aparty for reading 100 books in
a year.
They went so far as to send meout of the room on a fake errand
so that they could set thingsup.
Even now I'm touched by thisadorable treachery.
My friend's father madehomemade desserts.
I was so proud to be recognizedand accepted for doing
(35:40):
something I loved so much.
So I went through about twodecades of life as a
high-functioning, anxiety-riddenperson.
Maybe this sounds familiar toyou.
I got through high school andcollege.
I got a job.
Things were basically okay.
However, major life changeslike graduations, moves or
breakups tended to wreck me.
(36:00):
Facing the unknown still causedmajor distress.
My parents knew my patterns andwould often ask was I eating
right?
Was I spending enough time withmy friends?
Was I making sure to go to mytherapy appointments?
For the most part, I did thesethings and in between, tough
times, managed to accomplish alot.
(36:22):
I combined my love of poetry andmusic and slowly became a
songwriter, eventually proudlyreleasing independent music,
slowly became a songwriter,eventually proudly releasing
independent music.
I ventured out to perform atopen mics and piano bars.
I made great friends.
I smiled a lot.
I tried my best to be sweet andpolite and positive.
I didn't always feel sweet orpolite or positive.
(36:46):
I started to realize that, eventhough I did have a real desire
to be kind and connect throughmusic with people in a happy,
buoyant way, I also had just asbig of a wish to write songs
that explored all of the ugly,raging, terrified feelings I
still fought with from time totime.
You know the kinds of songsthat make people at the
(37:08):
restaurant you're playing instop dead in their tracks, come
right over to you and ask Wouldyou mind playing something more
upbeat?
This has actually happened tome.
Many times.
I feared what would happen if Icame clean.
I thought that writing thesongs I really wanted to write
might isolate me from otherswanted to write might isolate me
(37:32):
from others.
I pictured playing shows tocrowds who would smile at me
kindly yet sadly, and then gohome thinking that my set was a
huge downer.
That scared negative part of measked who wants to listen to
pop songs about eating disorders, depression and anxiety.
It turns out a lot of people do.
I wrote a song about my fear ofgraduating college, about
(37:53):
losing the safety of my smallschool community as I walked out
into the real world.
I wrote about trying todistract myself from anxiety and
depression by obsessing overthe size of my body.
I wrote a song that personifiedaddiction and discussed how
seductive checking out of reallife can be.
I started talking on stageabout why I decided to write
(38:15):
these songs and I got the bestresponses I had ever received.
People came up to me aftershows to tell me their own
stories or to say theyunderstood.
A dance teacher choreographed apiece using one of the songs.
A dance teacher choreographed apiece using one of the songs.
(38:44):
A writer devoted an entire blogpost to another.
The sentiments that I thoughtwould alien times that I've
fearfully prepared myself fortragedies that have actually
never happened Every time Iplayed it live.
I would preface it with thedinosaur story.
One night during a songwritingcircle, my friend and fellow
songwriter, Mike Clifford,dubbed that terrified
(39:05):
preparation a dinosaur plan.
I held on to that title becauseit helped me to laugh at myself
.
In the spring of 2016, I waschosen as one of 15
singer-songwriters to be part ofthe pilot episode of a TV show
called the Song.
Each participant was invited toplay an original song.
During filming, I offered upone of my more positive songs.
(39:28):
The one they wanted wasEverything Will Kill You.
Once again, I had doubted thatmy most personal music had a
place in the world, but onceagain, people let me know that
it did.
I have never been more pleasedto be proven wrong.
For years, my shame kept mestuck and imprisoned and caused
(39:50):
me to deny myself the love andconnection that could have
helped me.
I got lucky, though.
I took a chance, startedpulling the curtain back on all
that I was feeling and got moreacceptance than I ever thought
was possible.
I still struggle with anxietyand with a tendency to isolate
myself when I'm going through ahard time, but my new identity
(40:14):
as a songwriter is a constantreminder that I have another
choice.
Music is my bridge to otherpeople, other perspectives and a
much truer vision of who I am.
Strong.
Loved.
No dinosaurs in sight.
Gabe Nathan (40:34):
Thank you so much for reading that and thank you
so much for writing that.
What was it like to revisitthat again after so long?
What's coming up for you?
Yeah?
Jerzy Jung (40:48):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for your
editing help on that, becauseyou're welcome.
Gabe Nathan (40:54):
I'll just say you're welcome.
Yes, yeah good.
Jerzy Jung (40:57):
Thank you for receiving, because you really
did help take that to the nextlevel.
As I was reading, I could Iremember the little places where
you just refined.
You know what I written and Iappreciate your assists in that.
Thank you, yeah,congratulations to us both.
Yeah, man, and it's funny.
(41:21):
So I it was moving reading thatout loud.
It was moving reading that outloud.
Yeah, it was moving reading thatout loud, because I'll be
really honest with you and saythat I've not put in as much
(41:47):
into my music as I want to be,and that kind of happened right
after my dad died in 20,.
My dad died in 2017.
(42:13):
And I've I've been on aninteresting ride as far as music
and its place in my life andhow much I believe in it, and so
it was very tears were close tocoming when I sort of read
about how much I love music andit connects me to people because
(42:35):
, yeah, it's.
It's been a struggle to.
It's been a struggle to believein myself as a musician and
that's not for lack of wonderfulpeople in my life supporting me
.
(42:57):
It's just about I love it somuch but there's so much unknown
in it that that is, there'snothing else in my life I think
that I love so much but pushesme so much when it comes to fear
(43:21):
and anxiety, because music justthere's not really a roadmap
for it.
And so After my dad died, aftermy dad died, I really needed
(43:51):
things to be predictable.
Gabe Nathan (43:53):
Yep.
Jerzy Jung (43:54):
And so much unpredictability came from
watching him get sick.
And then I was with him in theroom when he passed and there
(44:21):
was just a period where Icouldn't handle anything.
That wasn't super predictableand I took a break from really
pouring into my music because Ijust felt too scared to do it.
Yeah, I didn't quit entirely,but I really did stop focusing
(44:46):
on it the way that I had, andit's funny it brings me to tears
and that's that's good, becausewhen we get off this call I'm
going to sit with that and say,okay, like, all right, jung,
you're, you're full of shit,like you're, you're really like
(45:07):
you know, like you've beenpretending that you don't love
this as much as you do and youknow, today Gabe Nathan helps
you realize like you're kind offull of shit, like you love it.
Gabe Nathan (45:21):
I think Jerzy Jung helped her realize that.
And look, let me tell yousomething, dude.
Okay, a couple things Like.
The first thing is I'm so very,very grateful to you for
(45:41):
showing up here as yourauthentic self and not feeling
like, oh, this is a thing, and Ihave to perform, and I got to
have it all together and I'vegot to just like, oh, this is a
thing, and I have to perform,and I got to have it all
together and I've got to justlike I've got to say all the
right things.
You're here, you're really herein this.
I mean, we're 3000 miles apart,but you're really here in this
(46:03):
room, in this space, in thistime, and that's a really big
deal.
And that's what so much ofmental health advocacy is about,
in my view.
It's about being here.
It's about being here withsomeone while they're struggling
.
It's about allowing someone tobe with you while you're
(46:26):
struggling and not having topretend or not having to like
have all the answers and I don'tyou know, sitting here watching
you cry like I it's audio forthe listeners, but I can see you
, um, and there's that impulsein me to be like, oh, my god,
when it's my turn, I better havethe right things to say to her
(46:50):
and I don't, because your truthabout your relationship with
music and your, that's yours andit's not for me to be like oh
Jerzy, that's not true.
You know, you gotda-da-da-da-da and you had this
and this, and I just saw a videoof you a couple days ago
(47:11):
rocking out at the piano andit's none of that matters.
And also, no matter what I say,your father is still gone.
I can't alter that reality.
What was going through my headwas there's a Mark Twain quote
for everything, and of coursethere's a Mark Twain quote for
(47:32):
everything, and of coursethere's a Mark Twain quote for
loss.
He lost a daughter to spinalmeningitis, his daughter, Suzy.
I think she was 24 or 25.
And he said it's amazing that aman can endure a thunderclap
like that and still live.
And you know you have enduredyour own thunderclap and you're
(48:03):
still living and you're stilllike getting out of bed and
putting your clothes on andmaking coffee and doing the
thing, and that's, that's enough.
I think, um, and as far as youused the word quit, you said I
(48:25):
didn't quit, um, but I did stopand I did.
I would love to just surgicallyexcise the word quitting from
the human lexicon entirely.
I think you know there havebeen times where I've gone like
six years without writing, whereI've you know I stopped doing
(48:51):
plays in 2018.
And like, it's not aboutquitting, it's about life is
going in this direction or thatdirection for whatever the
reason is, and sometimes it's ofour own volition, sometimes not
, sometimes there are externalfactors coming in, but like
(49:17):
things are going to ebb and flowand you strike me as a very
like ebb and flow kind of personand I hope that part of your
sitting, with all of this afterwe talk, is just reminding
yourself of that ebb and flowand that some things are going
to rise at certain times andother times recede, and that
(49:38):
that's okay.
I don't know, that's justwhat's rolling around in my head
after listening to you.
Jerzy Jung (49:45):
Thank you and I'm just.
I just wanted to take a secondand thank you for being such a
warm presence.
I the anxiety voice, of coursepopped up and was like you're
going to do a bad job, but everypart of me was like this is
going to be a rad conversationbecause it's with you.
(50:07):
So I need to just pause andoffer you that praise, because I
think you hold such a beautifulspace and it's just you.
You're calm and peaceful andyour presence is grounded and
it's lovely to be here speakingwith you.
Gabe Nathan (50:28):
You should have seen me driving here today.
You would have seen a verydifferent presence.
Jerzy Jung (50:32):
Yeah, and I think that's important to bring up,
right?
Because we like our ownexperience of ourselves is like
ah.
Gabe Nathan (50:39):
Yeah, yes.
Jerzy Jung (50:40):
But it's.
I just want to thank you, foryou know as much as we get in
our own heads and we get down onourselves.
I just really appreciate you,thank you.
Gabe Nathan (50:53):
And I you.
Yeah, the last question I havefor you is it's hard because you
wrote in your essay you know,my anxiety was born of a long
held view that the world wasdangerous, containing situations
and people I wasn't capable ofhandling.
(51:13):
And you know, not too longafter you wrote this essay, you
had to handle your fatherpassing away.
You had to have those fearsconfirmed.
This world is a dangerous placeand there are situations that
are going to be incrediblydifficult to handle.
(51:33):
I don't even know if onehandles death.
I mean, it just happens andwe're all like what you know.
But I guess my question reallyis I don't even know if it's a
question, but it's more of about.
You know, you've experienced somuch since you wrote this essay
(51:55):
like and the fear that youwon't be able to handle it,
juxtaposed with what the worldactually is like and what your
experience of going throughthose things has been like.
Jerzy Jung (52:18):
Thank you for asking that, and you know it's funny
what?
What I didn't confess in thatpiece, but which is true, is
that one of my greatest fears myentire life was that my dad
would die.
I didn't have the same fearabout my mom, because in our
(52:38):
family a lot of the men died tooyoung and I knew that, and so
there were just stories about ohyou know, pop Pop died before
you were born.
You know, just a couple men inmy family line died early and I
knew that and I think from ayoung age I just had that fear
of, like an obsessive fear, mydad's going to die, and yeah, so
(53:05):
that was definitely.
It was.
It was the greatest fearrealized, and it's funny, when
you're thrust into it you justdon't have a choice, it just is.
And so writing Everything WillKill you was a reminder.
It's not like hard things arenot going to happen, they super
(53:30):
are.
It's not like hard things arenot going to happen, they super
are.
But it almost isn't any useworrying, because when that
happened, that was so how do Iwant to put it?
Um, I just realized how muchtime I had wasted worrying about
(53:52):
the future.
You know it didn't do anythingfor me and worrying about what
if my dad dies I will say thisto anyone listening who's
wondering that didn't make itany easier when he got sick.
So the years I spent obsessingmy dad's going to die my dad's
(54:13):
going to die it still felt likeshit when he got sick and he
died, and so that was a lessonfor me that I tried to share
with anybody that ever wanted totalk about it, because I
figured, you know, if this hadto happen to our family, I'll
take whatever I can from it tohelp somebody else.
And yeah, I will say, as ananxious kid who worried my whole
(54:38):
life, that worry still didn'tgive me anything.
When he actually got sick, Istill had to feel every feeling
associated with seeing him gothrough treatment and holding
his hand across the table atlunch one day while he's crying
because he can't stop thinkingabout how his diagnosis is
(55:01):
terminal and being in the roomwith him when he passed.
It still hurt.
You passed, it still hurt.
So I think sometimes some ofthese worries, when we have
issues with anxiety, like someof them, we can't control, like
there were many times where youyou could have said to me can
(55:22):
you stop?
And I would have told you no, Ican't stop.
I actually am unable.
I'm caught in this loop.
I can't stop With many yearsand with getting tools and with
practice.
Now, on most days I can stop.
And yeah, I would say, thesedays I just remind myself of
(55:45):
that you worried for so manyyears and it didn't make it not
hurt, that you worried for somany years and it didn't make it
not hurt.
So you were trying to protectyourself from future hurt by
suffering today and it didn'twork.
And my gosh, what a big amountof lack of control that goes
(56:10):
along with loving somebody, um,and but it really did teach me
that in a lot of ways there wasnothing I could do.
But I try to say that in a waythat is encouraging, because I
(56:33):
hate it when people just sort oflike are all flipping and
they're like you can't controlanything and I'm like that's not
, are all flipping and they'relike you can't control anything
and I'm like that's not, that'snot cute, that doesn't help.
You know it doesn't.
I hate, as a person withanxiety, I hate when people are
just like you can't controlanything.
You can't control people.
I'm like get out of here.
Gabe Nathan (56:52):
Right and thank you .
Thank you for the newsflash.
I fucking know that.
Jerzy Jung (56:55):
Right, like, like why do you think you're helping?
You're not helping, but there'sa big difference between you
can't control people and like,yeah, you can't control people.
Gabe Nathan (57:10):
Right.
Jerzy Jung (57:11):
And so just knowing that, as horrific as it seems
like that, that's a piece ofwhat we sign up for when we love
.
Because a lot of my anxiety hasbeen around what if I lose
things and people that I love?
(57:34):
Um, it just helped me to knowlike, yes, this is part of the
package.
Right, yes, it is, and this isa shitty part of the package,
(57:55):
but it doesn't make thebeautiful stuff not worth it and
you can do it.
Um, for all the books I've everread, my favorite is still Feel
the Fear and Do it Anyway.
It's my favorite.
It's, you know, it's a classicand I feel like it never goes
out of style because at theheart of that book and, excuse
me one second, I have it righton my shelf.
So I want to name the author,even though I know that she's
passed, but just to give her thecredit she deserves.
(58:20):
Susan Jeffers, Ph.
D.
, wrote Feel the Fear and Do itAnyway, and her whole thing is
just just keep on working, oncultivating within yourself that
if the thing I'm fearinghappens, I will get through it,
I can handle it.
Yeah, I can handle it and that'shelped me immensely and as much
(58:43):
as I would change it in asecond if I could bring my dad
back, because I've moved throughthe phase of accepting that
this was part of his story andour family's story.
For him to pass when he did Um,I just say, okay, like what?
What can I learn from this?
(59:04):
What can I share with otherpeople?
How can I take what happenedand just turn it into help for
anybody that can be helped?
And and that was it it was likewe had to give him permission
to go.
That was part of it.
So we're standing around his bed, we got to bring him home, he
(59:26):
got to die at home and givinghim permission to go, and just
every step of that oh, this isthe worst fear I used to obsess
over when I was eight realizedlike this sucks and I'm doing it
and I don't want to be doing it, but I'm doing it and I'm
moving through it, and so that'sit.
(59:50):
So when we're anxiously fearingthis might happen, this might
happen, just saying I don't wantthat to happen, it's kind of a
waste of my time to dwell.
Gabe Nathan (01:00:00):
But if the worst were to happen, I have evidence
that that I can get through ityeah, which you didn't have
around the time of writing thisessay for a lot of things, and
that's, I feel like that's ahuge part of what's changed for
(01:00:21):
you.
That thunderclap has come andyou're still standing, and what
you were saying also reminds mea lot of what my mother used to
say to me when I was learningabout death as a kid and talking
to her about how scared I wasabout her dying and about me
dying and all of that.
(01:00:41):
And she said you know, Gabriel,if you spend your entire life
worried about that, you're notgoing to enjoy life and it's
going to take so much from you.
And I just ignored what shesaid and I've just worried about
it all the time.
Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
It's hard.
Jerzy Jung (01:01:02):
It's so easier said than done.
It is, it is.
Gabe Nathan (01:01:05):
But it's a process.
It's a whole lifelong processof feeling that fear and that
scared and letting yourself feelit and putting it aside for a
bit.
And so you know I'm going torevisit that again later and I
know it's going to come backlater, but I can't live with it
(01:01:28):
in the forefront.
Um, or it'll just be too much.
I'll just overpower everything.
So, well before we say farewell, I would love you to sing us
out, if you wouldn't mind, withthe song Everything Will Kill
(01:01:52):
you.
It's a favorite of mine thankyou so much.
(Jerzy performs song.
)Goddamn, god damn.
(01:06:43):
I always told people I wantedto be.
Sometimes I want to be a dj andafter a really amazing song
plays, just hit the mic and gofuck, but then my career would
be very short.
Um so wonderful, jersey.
Thank you for performing thatfor us and for being here today.
(01:07:06):
Where can people find you andyour music?
Jerzy Jung (01:07:09):
Oh, thank you so much.
This has just been.
I'm a writer.
There's not words for howspecial this was, so thank you
so so much.
You're welcome.
People can find me on Instagram.
My handle is Jerzy Jung.
(01:07:30):
You can find my music onBandcamp and I'm working to get
it out on streaming platforms aswell.
Gabe Nathan (01:07:33):
So I would say those are the best places,
awesome.
Thank you so so much, and bewell, let's do this again some
time.
Jerzy Jung (01:07:41):
Thank you so much.
Gabe Nathan (01:07:47):
Thank you again for joining us in conversation
today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Very special thank you to JerzyJung singer, songwriter,
pianist and actor from NewJersey, now living in LA.
What a voice, what a heart,what a human being.
So grateful to her for sharingher time, her talent and her
(01:08:10):
empathy with us here today onRecovery Diaries In-Depth.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
(01:08:32):
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere On Recovery Diaries
In-Depth.
Today, we're going to betalking to Jerzy Jung.
She's a singer, songwriter,pianist and actor from New
Jersey.
Jersey wrote an essay for oursite in 2015 called Everything
(00:22):
Will Kill you Anxiety, Fear andShame on Stage, and we're going
to be talking to Jersey aboutanxiety, fear and shame.
Also about the loss of herfather to cancer and how she's
coped with that loss and thevarious challenges that life has
thrown her way in the decadessince she wrote her essay.
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
(00:44):
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
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(01:04):
emerged.
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Jerzy, thank you so much forbeing here on Recovery Diaries
(01:48):
In Depth.
It is a joy to be sitting heretalking to you.
Jerzy Jung (01:53):
You as well.
I'm getting emotional.
I'm so grateful that youreached out, because this was I
don't know if I can imagine amore perfect combination of all
my favorite things, so it was sospecial to get this call, thank
you.
Gabe Nathan (02:08):
Oh man.
Well, I want to tell you so.
When I first started workingfor Recovery Diaries, I was
working at a locked inpatientpsychiatric hospital during the
day and I would come home and Iwould edit essays at night, like
on a very, very part-time basis.
(02:29):
I would be working with maybetwo or three writers here and
there, and you were one of thefirst writers with whom I worked
, and the essay that you wrote,which we're going to be talking
about a little later and whichyou're going to be reading aloud
a little later, which I'm soexcited about, it's so.
(02:52):
It has such a unique voice, andI think that's a very
appropriate thing to say,because you have such a unique
voice, singing voice and the waythat you compose lyrics and the
way that you express yourself.
It was just really a joy towork on.
(03:15):
I don't think I ever told youthat, so I wanted to tell you
that now and just embarrass youpublicly.
I thought that that would be agood way to start.
Jerzy Jung (03:20):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It's no embarrassment at all.
I once had a friend who caughtme not fully receiving a
compliment and she gave mereally simple instruction that
I've always taken and she saidall you have to do is say thank
you, I received that.
Gabe Nathan (03:36):
Oh man, I'm going to pocket that.
Jerzy Jung (03:38):
It's good, right?
Because.
.
.
so thank you.
I receive it very much.
Gabe Nathan (03:44):
Yeah, but okay, you're welcome, and I also want
to hear what you were going tosay before about why is that
hard?
Jerzy Jung (03:51):
Oh yeah, awesome, thank you for asking.
I love this question.
Yeah.
I think it's a deservingness thing for a lot of
us.
Someone gives us a really nicecompliment and a piece of us
says that's not me, I'm not thatgood, and so a part of us is
(04:12):
uncomfortable accepting the oh,this person's being so generous
to me.
I can't simply just have thisright.
I have to give something back.
(04:32):
I'm not enough, it's not safefor me to receive, but when we
give somebody a really coolbirthday present and we've
worked really hard, no one wantssomeone then to take the gift
and like throw it away like ahot potato.
And so I think words, kindwords, are gifts in that way.
(04:52):
And so what do you do when youget a gift?
You don't say oh no, I don'twant it.
You look at it, you hold it andyou say this is so lovely.
Thank you so much.
Gabe Nathan (05:03):
I received this.
Jerzy Jung (05:08):
Yeah, I received, so it was the best advice.
And my boyfriend and I actuallyboth can struggle to really
believe receive.
And so we have a little bitwhere if I give him a nice
compliment and I notice maybehe's not like fully taking it,
I'll be like where'd you justput that?
And we both, we both sort ofpoint to our heart and we sort
(05:29):
of mime.
I put it right here and I didhear it and I kept it.
Gabe Nathan (05:34):
Oh man, that's, it's a wonderful practice and
it's a wonderful thing to bemindful of what we, what we do
with those compliments, what wedo with those, because they are
gifts.
They are little gifts and Iwonder if there's also something
to do with anxiety, that whenwe, when we receive a compliment
(05:59):
, it's like, oh well, what ifit's disingenuous?
What if they're just soothingmy ego?
What if they didn't really meanit?
What if?
Because that's, what if?
" is the big anxiety questionright?
And everything starts with whatif?
And I wonder if you have thatexperience too.
I know that's true for me.
What if they're bullshitting me?
What if they're telling me whatI want to hear?
(06:28):
So, yeah, what do you think?
Jerzy Jung (06:28):
Yeah, thank you for asking that.
These are such cool questions.
Where I am right now, I'vegotten myself to the place where
I just say, well, why wouldthey go to all that trouble
making something up?
Gabe Nathan (06:40):
That's a lot of work to bullshit me like that.
Jerzy Jung (06:42):
Yeah, like why would they?
That's a lot of trouble.
Why would they do that?
And that's taken time because,of course, the what-if voice
wants to just put us in theworst possible light, wants to
tell the worst story, wants tokeep us in this familiar place
of the world is bad and I amless than, so I guess maybe I
(07:11):
started using my powers as awriter to challenge these
stories and I was like thisstory sucks.
I feel bad when I tell this one.
Like, what's another?
Because I don't know, I reallydon't know, like maybe they
don't mean it, but I'll neverknow that.
So I'm like, if I'll just neverreally know, why don't I pick
the story?
That's the fun one, so..
.
Gabe Nathan (07:29):
Yeah, and you have the power to do that, and that's
, that's a lovely thing torecognize, right?
Because mental illness wants totake our power away and it
wants to shove us out of thedriver's seat and say, no, fuck
you, I'm driving, Um, but reallywe can say no, no, no, no, no,
no, no.
I can drive this car and I canmake a choice to go down this
road.
I don't have to go downnegativity alley.
(07:52):
I can go down not positivityhighway, but maybe like
reality-based lane.
You know, and I think so muchof my struggle with mental
illness is reality testing andasking myself questions like
(08:12):
well, would someone go throughall that effort to bullshit you?
Isn't it?
Is it possible that they'reactually being genuine?
Are you maybe overthinking this?
Are you maybe telling yourselfa story that you've told so many
times that you believe it?
But it may not be true?
And I wonder what is yourexperience with?
(08:37):
Do you have to reality testyourself?
Jerzy Jung (08:42):
I'm laughing right now because it's so much.
It's so much and I love.
.
.
Before I answer that, I justwant to spotlight how much I
enjoyed what you said.
Maybe you said something.
I've told myself the same storyso many times that I believe it
, and I thought that was sopowerful and smart that you said
(09:02):
that.
So I wanted to just give athumbs up to that, because
that's a lot of it sometimes is,this was never true, but I told
myself this I got the wrongidea and then it cemented.
I have to reality test all thetime.
(09:29):
This morning, you know, thenegative tape started playing of
who are you to be a guest on apodcast?
You're not going to do it right.
Gabe Nathan (09:32):
I was just going to ask if you're, are you doing it
right now, cause I am.
Jerzy Jung (09:37):
I did it all morning because and and I started to
get a little sassy with it I doa mixture of like sass and love
when I go to that place and so,first of all, that voice started
going before this interview.
That was just like who are youto do this?
You're not, you don't haveanything good to say.
(09:57):
And I have this thing where,when I feel that I'm like,
"Whatcha doing?
" To that voice, I'm like
Gabe Nathan (10:15):
Hey, gurl.
Jerzy Jung (10:15):
Yeah.
And then the voice is like well, I don't know.
I'm just kind of like shovingall things that are good down
the toilet bowl and I'm like, oh, let's see how's that going for
you, do you like that?
How'd that go the last timelike.
.
.
Gabe Nathan (10:26):
Yeah.
Jerzy Jung (10:27):
And I'll also ask the question because I I have to
give compassion when thathappens, because I used to try
to just be like shut up, shut up, stop it.
That didn't work.
There was still this sensitivepart of me that was crying for
something different.
So, um, I give love.
I have a couple phrases I'lluse a lot.
(10:49):
One is , and number two is I'llsay to myself I love you, you
care so much.
Gabe Nathan (10:58):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Jerzy Jung (10:58):
Because a lot of anxiety is.
I just care so much I want thisto go well, so badly, and I'm
terrified that I'm not going toperform, that I'm not going to
show up, that I'm going to letpeople down all of it.
So my reality testing a lot isjust really like sass mixed with
love, like, oh, I see you'retrying to, like, you know,
(11:22):
trying to put it all down thetoilet bowl again, aren't you?
Gabe Nathan (11:25):
That's cute, nice work, if you can get it.
Jerzy Jung (11:29):
Yeah.
And then I'll also say tomyself okay, I hear you, do you
want to stay here?
That's one of my favoritequestions to ask to myself.
All right, I'm not going toshame you, but like, do you want
to stay here?
And always the answer I feelfrom inside is definitely not,
most definitely not.
Gabe Nathan (11:49):
Okay.
So first thing that I want tosay is I hope that you will
consider writing a song calledSass and Love about that kind of
inner monologue and that workthat you're doing inside to talk
to that voice.
(12:10):
The other thing is you soundlike someone who's been in
therapy for a very long time.
Is that true?
Jerzy Jung (12:18):
That is true, it is.
Gabe Nathan (12:20):
Okay, well, can you talk a little bit about that?
Jerzy Jung (12:23):
Of course, and actually, yeah, I guess that's
right.
So I resisted therapy for along time.
I actually the first time Iever went was in college, and it
was because, yeah, it was.
And you know what's interestingis you and I, you know we're
the same generation and that wasnot as much of a thing, I think
(12:47):
, as it is now, and so it was alittle more mysterious.
It wasn't like everyone youknew was going, so I didn't know
you were going PS.
Yeah, right, yeah, and like now,it's just part of it, and I
love that it's part of it,because I don't think there
should ever be shame and shadow.
You know, obviously peopledeserve their privacy, but I
(13:08):
think it's cool that so manypeople are just like yeah, this
is part of my wellness plan.
Gabe Nathan (13:14):
Or I can't talk now because I'm going to therapy in
an hour.
You know, can we reschedulethis?
It's just part of the humanexperience, and it was not when
we were in college, for sure.
Jerzy Jung (13:26):
Yeah, so the first time I went was in college and
it was because a previousboyfriend encouraged me to go,
and so that was the first and Ireally enjoyed that.
I think I went, for I startedgoing maybe junior year and I
went the entire time throughcollege.
I started going maybe junioryear and I went the entire time
through college, then sort oftook a break.
(13:47):
But when my dad got sick justthe same week that we found out
that he had cancer, I just knew,Um, and I made that call and I
was like I need to go back, Idefinitely need to go back, and
so that was, I guess, 2014 or2015.
Um, and then I'm sort of on abreak, but I I've done some form
(14:14):
of whether talk therapy, Reiki,energy healing, coaching, so
yeah, pretty much since 2015,I've made having someone to talk
to a part of my life yeah, andI I want to say one thing about
the college mental healthexperience.
Gabe Nathan (14:36):
I don't know if you for your appointments if you
went through the front door orthe back door, but I will never
forget when I finally worked upthe nerve to go and make my
first appointment, I went inthrough the main entrance of the
health center and you know, ifyou remember you go into the
(14:58):
health center.
It's not the same anymore,obviously.
But to the left was like themedical stuff and to the right
were the counselor's office andthere was a desk there and a
receptionist and she and I umsaid what I was there for and I
made the appointment andeverything.
And I was about to leave andshe said oh, excuse me, by the
(15:20):
way, next time when you comeback for your appointment,
please feel free to use the rearentrance because there's a lot
of hedges and people won't beable to see you come in.
And I was so like I was like,oh, okay, okay.
And I left right and I didn'trealize until much later how
(15:44):
fucked up that was that theywere basically at the counseling
center.
They were basically telling youyou know, here's the sneaky way
to get in, so no one knows thatyou're going to therapy, which,
like, why shouldn't anybodyknow that we're going to therapy
?
But again, this was the late90s, into the early aughts, and
(16:06):
it was a very different scene.
I can't imagine them sayingthat to college students going
to the counseling center now,and it just strikes me as a
stark reminder of where we wereand how far we've come.
Jerzy Jung (16:23):
I think yeah, so fascinating.
I think the internet has helpeda lot.
You just see so much all overand I love that too.
I just love that it's becomingmore and more normal.
Gabe Nathan (16:37):
Okay, so I really want to talk about it.
When you say the internet, doyou mean social media?
Jerzy Jung (16:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Gabe Nathan (16:42):
Okay, good, so let's.
I'm really excited that youwant to talk.
You can like hear my voice allperked up now.
In my experience as a mentalhealth and suicide awareness
advocate, I hear people pulldown their pants and take a dump
on social media all the timeabout and talking about how
deleterious it is and how awfulit is and how it's bad for teens
(17:04):
and how it's bad for this andthat and how it's increasing
depression and it's increasingeating disorders and comparison
(17:26):
body image stuff and it's it'shorrible.
And who are struggling can findallies on social media living
with all over the world.
People can find families whentheir own families don't want
(17:50):
anything to do with them becausethey're LGBTQIA+, for whatever
the reason is, find informationabout things that they're scared
to ask their parents orwhomever, whomever.
And I just feel that we miss somuch when we make these like
reductive statements aboutsocial media.
(18:11):
We just like vilify it and I Iwould love to hear that's my
take on it.
But I want to hear from youwhat your experience has been,
because we have grown up withthis.
You know in the same way.
So, yeah, what's yourexperience been?
Jerzy Jung (18:29):
I think I can definitely see where it can be
negative, where it can beharmful, and it's tough.
I don't know what to say abouthow we keep people from the
damaging parts.
People from the damaging parts,um, cause, I definitely feel
(18:51):
those do exist, but I do feelthere's so much good, um, it has
been so wonderful for me tojust have a space where I can
write about these things andthen have other people see them,
and I've developed some reallyamazing community because of
(19:11):
social media.
On my private Facebook page, Igave myself a challenge to share
something of value every dayfor 365 days minimum, and I'm on
day 234 today, I think, andthat's just been really, really
good for my mental health.
(19:32):
Now I keep that really private.
That's just my personalFacebook page, so anybody that I
don't know doesn't get to comein, and so I think, as a really
sensitive person, I wouldprobably have a lot of trouble
if my socials weren't kind ofkept behind my own safe gate.
So, yeah, so I don't know thatit's possible to vilify all of
(19:56):
social media, because there'sthe kind that helps and there's
the kind that can cause harmyeah, the kind that can cause
harm.
So maybe it's not about sayingsocial media is the problem, but
saying we just really alwaysneed to take care to do whatever
we can to keep it healthy, keepit positive.
Gabe Nathan (20:19):
What did you share today?
I'm just curious.
Jerzy Jung (20:22):
Oh, I haven't yet.
Gabe Nathan (20:23):
Are you okay to share that?
Jerzy Jung (20:24):
Yeah, I haven't or actually, no, I usually post at
night, um, but I can.
I, uh, last night I posted apiece about my boyfriend, um, do
you want me to read it?
Gabe Nathan (20:38):
Yeah!
Jerzy Jung (20:38):
Yeah?
Okay, um, so, and some somedays I'll post a piece of
writing, other days I'll post avideo, um, but my yesterday, uh,
my boyfriend has just reallybeen lovely this week, cause
I've had a lot of stuff likethis where I have to get on a
call.
You know, I have to be ready,um, and he's had an easier not
(21:04):
fully easy week, but he's hadless, um, things like this to do
, and so so I wrote this piecethat I'll read right now about,
um, just the way he supported meand I wanted to sort of.
I had a big Zoom meeting toprepare for one where I had to
show up and lead.
(21:28):
I was rushing around the housewith half wet hair gulping down
Earl Grey tea.
I had exactly enough time tofinish blow drying, finish my
cup of tea and sit down.
Walter came over to me, gave mea hug and said let me feed you.
He made brunch while Iblow-dried.
What a man.
Here's what not to do whensomeone, out of the kindness of
(21:51):
their beautiful, pure heart,says let me feed you, don't feel
guilty.
It sours the sweetness that'sbeing offered.
Don't wonder if this could bereal.
It is real and it is happening.
Don't jump out of the presentmoment, even if it's
uncomfortable.
For many of us, receiving feelsuncomfortable or unsafe.
(22:13):
We feel like things are toogood somehow.
Like the other shoe will dropif we accept an amazing gift,
like we'll be punished forletting our guard down.
Don't apologize one milliontimes, say oh, you don't have to
do that.
Or rush to promise you'll paythat person back.
All of that is tossing the giftaway like a hot potato.
(22:34):
Hold a gift first.
Treasure the shit out of it.
It's not a hot potato, it's awarm one, meant to be held for a
long time, meant to be turnedover and over in your hands.
Every bit of it felt andbelieved in.
Tomorrow, our neighbor is makingus dinner.
She's been offering to do thisfor over a month.
(22:56):
This week we finally accepted.
We're going to let her feed us.
I know it's going to be lovely.
Grateful to this man for feedingme today.
It was so kind and so pure thatI almost didn't accept it At
first.
I hesitated, I'm pretty sure.
I said, oh, that's okay, it canprobably wait, I'm not that
hungry.
(23:16):
He said yes, you are, and I was.
If someone looks at you withlove in their eyes or a genuine
desire to give and says let mefeed you, let them Feel all of
the complicated feelings thatarise from letting yourself be
cared for, from seeing yourselfas worthy and deserving, from
(23:39):
letting things feel beautifulfor as long as you can and
receive with every cell in yourbody, with your whole mind and
your whole heart.
I know it's scary.
I know our minds want to jumpright to.
What if this gets taken away?
That's an understandable fear,but we can do it.
(23:59):
We can move through it andlearn another way.
Let yourself be fed and onceyou're full, like you've never
been full before, you can feedothers in the same pure and
beautiful way.
You deserve it.
We all do.
See you tomorrow.
Gabe Nathan (24:20):
Oh man, and treasure the shit out of it.
Jerzy Jung (24:24):
It's a warm potato.
Gabe Nathan (24:28):
Jerzy, thank you, and Walter, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for feeding thissuper cool human being.
But what I heard over and overagain in what you were reading
and this is not me trying to beslick and do a great segue, but
I heard anxiety, shame and fear.
(24:49):
What if this thing gets takenaway from me?
I feel guilty about it.
It's all there, everything thatwas in the title of your essay
from 2014.
It's 10 years and those thingsare still percolating and
(25:10):
they're still bubbling in yourbrain.
And that's the thing aboutmental health.
We're never cured.
There's no like recovery is.
It's a road that we're on.
We don't get out of the car andlike, oh, we're here.
All of that stuff's in thereall the time.
(25:32):
So if you're okay with readingagain after reading that, I
would love you to go into youressay.
It is called Everything WillKill You; Anxiety, Fear and
Shame on Stage.
And yeah, let's just hear it.
(25:52):
I'm so excited.
Jerzy Jung (25:57):
I'm laughing right now because I just had the
following thought I'm so nervousabout writing this piece on
anxiety.
Okay, stop, rewind, let's thinkabout this for a second.
Still the body, quiet the mind.
Breathe in for four counts,breathe out for eight.
(26:19):
Ask yourself does this reactiontruly fit the situation?
If not, remember to be kind toyourself.
Remember that shame is neverhelpful.
Remember Now.
Reframe the thought in yourmind.
(26:39):
Whatever you're worried aboutmay be a challenge, but you can
handle it.
List the reasons why.
Focus on facts and proof.
Think of all the challengesyou've successfully handled
before and finally, wheneverpossible, lovingly laugh at
yourself.
This is not the end of theworld.
(27:00):
It's okay to take yourself lessseriously.
Plus, it's very likely thatsomeday this struggle will be so
far behind in your rear viewthat it will be just as
hilarious as the time that youadorably weird and desperate
five-year-old that you were madenow what is famously known as
(27:22):
the Dinosaur Plan.
My name is Jerzy Jung.
I'm a singer, songwriter andpiano player who also loves
acting, dancing and musicproduction.
I've won awards for my writingand have also been too
intimidated to return calls frominterested people in the music
industry.
You can watch me on Netflixright now in a performance for a
(27:45):
production company that took methree years to work up the
courage to join.
I want to be a professionalartist more than I've ever
wanted anything else in my life,but for most of my life I've
been terrified to truly try toattain this goal.
In other words, I just might benormal.
(28:07):
Anxiety runs in my family.
I went through a period where Itried to really unpack this, to
figure out why.
These days I'm at a place whereI just accept that this is our
particular challenge to dealwith.
Somehow that acceptance of myhistory helps me to focus on
what I can control the presentand how I behave now.
(28:29):
I was raised by two incrediblyloving and attentive parents.
Anytime my sisters or I came tothem crying, they would stop,
listen and reassure us.
I remember my mom explainingconcepts like death and sex and
periods to us so that theywouldn't seem scary.
My dad would have funny littlephilosophical talks with us,
(28:51):
reminding us that it was okay tobe ourselves despite what
others around us were doing.
We all had our share ofpersonal quirks and challenges,
but we also shared plenty oflove, traditions and time to
express our goofy creativity.
My problem was just that from ayoung age, I felt like my
(29:12):
anxious feelings and fears wereshameful and I should hide them
whenever I could.
I had myself convinced thatit's okay to be yourself applied
to everyone but me.
I thought if people really gotto know me, they'd realize how
weird I was.
I didn't know any other kids atschool who worried about their
ceiling fan turning into amonster overnight or their house
(29:34):
burning down while they wereasleep inside.
I would get angry at myself forbeing weak or not normal and
thus began a cycle that lastedfor many years.
Anxiety would lead to shame.
Shame would lead to anger atmyself.
Anger would lead to silence,because I badly wanted to beat
(29:55):
back the feelings on my own,without help from anyone.
I was supposed to have it alltogether.
Recently, I told my mom thestory of the dinosaur plan and
she said why didn't you tell mewe could have sorted that out
within five minutes plan?
And she said why didn't youtell me we could have sorted
that out within five minutes?
We had a good laugh over itbecause, like many of the
(30:17):
obsessive fears that have takenroot in my head over the years,
in hindsight it was prettyridiculous.
Shame, however, was the matchthat turned that situation into
an uncontrollable fire.
The setting Mrs Kennedy'skindergarten class, stoy School,
south Jersey.
I'm five years old.
Our teacher is introducing usto a group of ancient creatures
(30:37):
called the dinosaurs.
They were big, powerful,ferocious.
Some ate just plants, butothers ate other creatures.
Oh, other creatures.
Oh, once upon a time thedinosaurs were in charge.
They roamed the earth doing bigand sometimes scary dinosaur
things.
They probably had bloodybattles in the mud.
(31:00):
Some of them could fly.
They died a long time ago.
After the dinosaur lesson, mostof my friends took note of this
information and then moved onwith their regularly scheduled
lives.
They took naps on theirbrightly patterned towels.
One lucky winner played therole of the nap fairy and
tiptoed around the class tappingheads to put people to sleep.
(31:21):
They ate their lunches andtraded apples for cookies.
They hugged stuffed dolls andmade up their own songs.
At playtime I lay down on mytowel and looked up at the
classroom ceiling, processing mypersonal takeaway from the
lesson.
Yes, the dinosaurs died, butMrs.
Kennedy never explicitly saidthat they weren't coming back.
(31:45):
I did not nap that day.
Why didn't I just ask if thiswas Sorry?
Why didn't I just ask if thisSorry, I gotta go back.
I'll go back a little bit of mytowel and looked up at the
(32:07):
classroom ceiling processing mypersonal takeaway from the
lesson.
Yes, the dinosaurs died, butMrs.
Kennedy never explicitly saidthat they weren't coming back.
I did not nap that day.
Why didn't I just ask if thiswas possible?
Why didn't I tell someone thatI needed help?
(32:29):
I guess that even at five Iknew that I.
I guess that even at five Iknew that what I was feeling had
a different vibe to it.
Once I started thinking aboutthe dinosaurs and the
uncertainty of their return, Icouldn't stop the thoughts from
coming.
We learned about what to do ifyou got lost at the park or at
(32:49):
the mall.
We learned about what to do ifyou got lost at the park or at
the mall find a police officeror a kind adult.
We watched movies about firenarrated by cartoon animals and
made escape plans with ourparents, but no one up to that
point had ever covered dinosaurswith us.
Was the dinosaur plan like thefire plan?
Maybe, except no, they wouldall be outside of the house.
It was enough to break a kid'sspirit and inspire lunchtime
(33:13):
cookie hoarding in case.
This was in fact the day thedinosaurs came back.
This was also one more thoughtto support my strengthening
belief that the world justwasn't safe.
My anxiety was born of along-held view that the world
was dangerous.
My anxiety was born of along-held view that the world
(33:45):
was dangerous, containingsituations and people I wasn't
capable of handling.
I especially struggled withthings that were uncomfortable
or unknown.
I was young.
I lost both of my grandparentsto cancer within a few years of
one another, and my dad nearlydied in a horrible car accident.
To be upset by these events wasnatural.
The difficulty for me was that,instead of coping and gradually
moving on, I got caught in anendless feedback loop of worry
(34:08):
and obsession, as usual, keepingas much of it to myself as I
could.
My attempts to disguise my fearswere not always effective.
I went through about a year ofintense separation anxiety,
where I was so scared to beapart from my parents and the
safety of my house that I oftencouldn't make it through a
school day, sleepovers orbirthday parties.
(34:31):
Forget it.
More often than not, I wouldwind up crying and calling my
mom or dad to come pick me upearly.
I would begin each event in anexcited, hopeful mood, but fear
and panic would soon wash overme, and I could only be calmed
by sliding into the back seat ofthe family car.
I felt embarrassed, but thecompulsion to escape back to
(34:56):
what I was familiar with alwayswon out.
I ate my feelings too.
Food was a comforting hobby,pleasurable and distracting.
I also hid myself in books.
I melted into other people'sstories and lives, successfully
shutting off the inner workingsof my own mind.
This wasn't all bad.
(35:16):
I became a strong reader andwriter.
My third grade class threw me aparty for reading 100 books in
a year.
They went so far as to send meout of the room on a fake errand
so that they could set thingsup.
Even now I'm touched by thisadorable treachery.
My friend's father madehomemade desserts.
I was so proud to be recognizedand accepted for doing
(35:40):
something I loved so much.
So I went through about twodecades of life as a
high-functioning, anxiety-riddenperson.
Maybe this sounds familiar toyou.
I got through high school andcollege.
I got a job.
Things were basically okay.
However, major life changeslike graduations, moves or
breakups tended to wreck me.
(36:00):
Facing the unknown still causedmajor distress.
My parents knew my patterns andwould often ask was I eating
right?
Was I spending enough time withmy friends?
Was I making sure to go to mytherapy appointments?
For the most part, I did thesethings and in between, tough
times, managed to accomplish alot.
(36:22):
I combined my love of poetry andmusic and slowly became a
songwriter, eventually proudlyreleasing independent music,
slowly became a songwriter,eventually proudly releasing
independent music.
I ventured out to perform atopen mics and piano bars.
I made great friends.
I smiled a lot.
I tried my best to be sweet andpolite and positive.
I didn't always feel sweet orpolite or positive.
(36:46):
I started to realize that, eventhough I did have a real desire
to be kind and connect throughmusic with people in a happy,
buoyant way, I also had just asbig of a wish to write songs
that explored all of the ugly,raging, terrified feelings I
still fought with from time totime.
You know the kinds of songsthat make people at the
(37:08):
restaurant you're playing instop dead in their tracks, come
right over to you and ask Wouldyou mind playing something more
upbeat?
This has actually happened tome.
Many times.
I feared what would happen if Icame clean.
I thought that writing thesongs I really wanted to write
might isolate me from otherswanted to write might isolate me
(37:32):
from others.
I pictured playing shows tocrowds who would smile at me
kindly yet sadly, and then gohome thinking that my set was a
huge downer.
That scared negative part of measked who wants to listen to
pop songs about eating disorders, depression and anxiety.
It turns out a lot of people do.
I wrote a song about my fear ofgraduating college, about
(37:53):
losing the safety of my smallschool community as I walked out
into the real world.
I wrote about trying todistract myself from anxiety and
depression by obsessing overthe size of my body.
I wrote a song that personifiedaddiction and discussed how
seductive checking out of reallife can be.
I started talking on stageabout why I decided to write
(38:15):
these songs and I got the bestresponses I had ever received.
People came up to me aftershows to tell me their own
stories or to say theyunderstood.
A dance teacher choreographed apiece using one of the songs.
A dance teacher choreographed apiece using one of the songs.
(38:44):
A writer devoted an entire blogpost to another.
The sentiments that I thoughtwould alien times that I've
fearfully prepared myself fortragedies that have actually
never happened Every time Iplayed it live.
I would preface it with thedinosaur story.
One night during a songwritingcircle, my friend and fellow
songwriter, Mike Clifford,dubbed that terrified
(39:05):
preparation a dinosaur plan.
I held on to that title becauseit helped me to laugh at myself
.
In the spring of 2016, I waschosen as one of 15
singer-songwriters to be part ofthe pilot episode of a TV show
called the Song.
Each participant was invited toplay an original song.
During filming, I offered upone of my more positive songs.
(39:28):
The one they wanted wasEverything Will Kill You.
Once again, I had doubted thatmy most personal music had a
place in the world, but onceagain, people let me know that
it did.
I have never been more pleasedto be proven wrong.
For years, my shame kept mestuck and imprisoned and caused
(39:50):
me to deny myself the love andconnection that could have
helped me.
I got lucky, though.
I took a chance, startedpulling the curtain back on all
that I was feeling and got moreacceptance than I ever thought
was possible.
I still struggle with anxietyand with a tendency to isolate
myself when I'm going through ahard time, but my new identity
(40:14):
as a songwriter is a constantreminder that I have another
choice.
Music is my bridge to otherpeople, other perspectives and a
much truer vision of who I am.
Strong.
Loved.
No dinosaurs in sight.
Gabe Nathan (40:34):
Thank you so much for reading that and thank you
so much for writing that.
What was it like to revisitthat again after so long?
What's coming up for you?
Yeah?
Jerzy Jung (40:48):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for your
editing help on that, becauseyou're welcome.
Gabe Nathan (40:54):
I'll just say you're welcome.
Yes, yeah good.
Jerzy Jung (40:57):
Thank you for receiving, because you really
did help take that to the nextlevel.
As I was reading, I could Iremember the little places where
you just refined.
You know what I written and Iappreciate your assists in that.
Thank you, yeah,congratulations to us both.
Yeah, man, and it's funny.
(41:21):
So I it was moving reading thatout loud.
It was moving reading that outloud.
Yeah, it was moving reading thatout loud, because I'll be
really honest with you and saythat I've not put in as much
(41:47):
into my music as I want to be,and that kind of happened right
after my dad died in 20,.
My dad died in 2017.
(42:13):
And I've I've been on aninteresting ride as far as music
and its place in my life andhow much I believe in it, and so
it was very tears were close tocoming when I sort of read
about how much I love music andit connects me to people because
(42:35):
, yeah, it's.
It's been a struggle to.
It's been a struggle to believein myself as a musician and
that's not for lack of wonderfulpeople in my life supporting me
.
(42:57):
It's just about I love it somuch but there's so much unknown
in it that that is, there'snothing else in my life I think
that I love so much but pushesme so much when it comes to fear
(43:21):
and anxiety, because music justthere's not really a roadmap
for it.
And so After my dad died, aftermy dad died, I really needed
(43:51):
things to be predictable.
Gabe Nathan (43:53):
Yep.
Jerzy Jung (43:54):
And so much unpredictability came from
watching him get sick.
And then I was with him in theroom when he passed and there
(44:21):
was just a period where Icouldn't handle anything.
That wasn't super predictableand I took a break from really
pouring into my music because Ijust felt too scared to do it.
Yeah, I didn't quit entirely,but I really did stop focusing
(44:46):
on it the way that I had, andit's funny it brings me to tears
and that's that's good, becausewhen we get off this call I'm
going to sit with that and say,okay, like, all right, jung,
you're, you're full of shit,like you're, you're really like
(45:07):
you know, like you've beenpretending that you don't love
this as much as you do and youknow, today Gabe Nathan helps
you realize like you're kind offull of shit, like you love it.
Gabe Nathan (45:21):
I think Jerzy Jung helped her realize that.
And look, let me tell yousomething, dude.
Okay, a couple things Like.
The first thing is I'm so very,very grateful to you for
(45:41):
showing up here as yourauthentic self and not feeling
like, oh, this is a thing, and Ihave to perform, and I got to
have it all together and I'vegot to just like, oh, this is a
thing, and I have to perform,and I got to have it all
together and I've got to justlike I've got to say all the
right things.
You're here, you're really herein this.
I mean, we're 3000 miles apart,but you're really here in this
(46:03):
room, in this space, in thistime, and that's a really big
deal.
And that's what so much ofmental health advocacy is about,
in my view.
It's about being here.
It's about being here withsomeone while they're struggling
.
It's about allowing someone tobe with you while you're
(46:26):
struggling and not having topretend or not having to like
have all the answers and I don'tyou know, sitting here watching
you cry like I it's audio forthe listeners, but I can see you
, um, and there's that impulsein me to be like, oh, my god,
when it's my turn, I better havethe right things to say to her
(46:50):
and I don't, because your truthabout your relationship with
music and your, that's yours andit's not for me to be like oh
Jerzy, that's not true.
You know, you gotda-da-da-da-da and you had this
and this, and I just saw a videoof you a couple days ago
(47:11):
rocking out at the piano andit's none of that matters.
And also, no matter what I say,your father is still gone.
I can't alter that reality.
What was going through my headwas there's a Mark Twain quote
for everything, and of coursethere's a Mark Twain quote for
(47:32):
everything, and of coursethere's a Mark Twain quote for
loss.
He lost a daughter to spinalmeningitis, his daughter, Suzy.
I think she was 24 or 25.
And he said it's amazing that aman can endure a thunderclap
like that and still live.
And you know you have enduredyour own thunderclap and you're
(48:03):
still living and you're stilllike getting out of bed and
putting your clothes on andmaking coffee and doing the
thing, and that's, that's enough.
I think, um, and as far as youused the word quit, you said I
(48:25):
didn't quit, um, but I did stopand I did.
I would love to just surgicallyexcise the word quitting from
the human lexicon entirely.
I think you know there havebeen times where I've gone like
six years without writing, whereI've you know I stopped doing
(48:51):
plays in 2018.
And like, it's not aboutquitting, it's about life is
going in this direction or thatdirection for whatever the
reason is, and sometimes it's ofour own volition, sometimes not
, sometimes there are externalfactors coming in, but like
(49:17):
things are going to ebb and flowand you strike me as a very
like ebb and flow kind of personand I hope that part of your
sitting, with all of this afterwe talk, is just reminding
yourself of that ebb and flowand that some things are going
to rise at certain times andother times recede, and that
(49:38):
that's okay.
I don't know, that's justwhat's rolling around in my head
after listening to you.
Jerzy Jung (49:45):
Thank you and I'm just.
I just wanted to take a secondand thank you for being such a
warm presence.
I the anxiety voice, of coursepopped up and was like you're
going to do a bad job, but everypart of me was like this is
going to be a rad conversationbecause it's with you.
(50:07):
So I need to just pause andoffer you that praise, because I
think you hold such a beautifulspace and it's just you.
You're calm and peaceful andyour presence is grounded and
it's lovely to be here speakingwith you.
Gabe Nathan (50:28):
You should have seen me driving here today.
You would have seen a verydifferent presence.
Jerzy Jung (50:32):
Yeah, and I think that's important to bring up,
right?
Because we like our ownexperience of ourselves is like
ah.
Gabe Nathan (50:39):
Yeah, yes.
Jerzy Jung (50:40):
But it's.
I just want to thank you, foryou know as much as we get in
our own heads and we get down onourselves.
I just really appreciate you,thank you.
Gabe Nathan (50:53):
And I you.
Yeah, the last question I havefor you is it's hard because you
wrote in your essay you know,my anxiety was born of a long
held view that the world wasdangerous, containing situations
and people I wasn't capable ofhandling.
(51:13):
And you know, not too longafter you wrote this essay, you
had to handle your fatherpassing away.
You had to have those fearsconfirmed.
This world is a dangerous placeand there are situations that
are going to be incrediblydifficult to handle.
(51:33):
I don't even know if onehandles death.
I mean, it just happens andwe're all like what you know.
But I guess my question reallyis I don't even know if it's a
question, but it's more of about.
You know, you've experienced somuch since you wrote this essay
(51:55):
like and the fear that youwon't be able to handle it,
juxtaposed with what the worldactually is like and what your
experience of going throughthose things has been like.
Jerzy Jung (52:18):
Thank you for asking that, and you know it's funny
what?
What I didn't confess in thatpiece, but which is true, is
that one of my greatest fears myentire life was that my dad
would die.
I didn't have the same fearabout my mom, because in our
(52:38):
family a lot of the men died tooyoung and I knew that, and so
there were just stories about ohyou know, pop Pop died before
you were born.
You know, just a couple men inmy family line died early and I
knew that and I think from ayoung age I just had that fear
of, like an obsessive fear, mydad's going to die, and yeah, so
(53:05):
that was definitely.
It was.
It was the greatest fearrealized, and it's funny, when
you're thrust into it you justdon't have a choice, it just is.
And so writing Everything WillKill you was a reminder.
It's not like hard things arenot going to happen, they super
(53:30):
are.
It's not like hard things arenot going to happen, they super
are.
But it almost isn't any useworrying, because when that
happened, that was so how do Iwant to put it?
Um, I just realized how muchtime I had wasted worrying about
(53:52):
the future.
You know it didn't do anythingfor me and worrying about what
if my dad dies I will say thisto anyone listening who's
wondering that didn't make itany easier when he got sick.
So the years I spent obsessingmy dad's going to die my dad's
(54:13):
going to die it still felt likeshit when he got sick and he
died, and so that was a lessonfor me that I tried to share
with anybody that ever wanted totalk about it, because I
figured, you know, if this hadto happen to our family, I'll
take whatever I can from it tohelp somebody else.
And yeah, I will say, as ananxious kid who worried my whole
(54:38):
life, that worry still didn'tgive me anything.
When he actually got sick, Istill had to feel every feeling
associated with seeing him gothrough treatment and holding
his hand across the table atlunch one day while he's crying
because he can't stop thinkingabout how his diagnosis is
(55:01):
terminal and being in the roomwith him when he passed.
It still hurt.
You passed, it still hurt.
So I think sometimes some ofthese worries, when we have
issues with anxiety, like someof them, we can't control, like
there were many times where youyou could have said to me can
(55:22):
you stop?
And I would have told you no, Ican't stop.
I actually am unable.
I'm caught in this loop.
I can't stop With many yearsand with getting tools and with
practice.
Now, on most days I can stop.
And yeah, I would say, thesedays I just remind myself of
(55:45):
that you worried for so manyyears and it didn't make it not
hurt, that you worried for somany years and it didn't make it
not hurt.
So you were trying to protectyourself from future hurt by
suffering today and it didn'twork.
And my gosh, what a big amountof lack of control that goes
(56:10):
along with loving somebody, um,and but it really did teach me
that in a lot of ways there wasnothing I could do.
But I try to say that in a waythat is encouraging, because I
(56:33):
hate it when people just sort oflike are all flipping and
they're like you can't controlanything and I'm like that's not
, are all flipping and they'relike you can't control anything
and I'm like that's not, that'snot cute, that doesn't help.
You know it doesn't.
I hate, as a person withanxiety, I hate when people are
just like you can't controlanything.
You can't control people.
I'm like get out of here.
Gabe Nathan (56:52):
Right and thank you .
Thank you for the newsflash.
I fucking know that.
Jerzy Jung (56:55):
Right, like, like why do you think you're helping?
You're not helping, but there'sa big difference between you
can't control people and like,yeah, you can't control people.
Gabe Nathan (57:10):
Right.
Jerzy Jung (57:11):
And so just knowing that, as horrific as it seems
like that, that's a piece ofwhat we sign up for when we love
.
Because a lot of my anxiety hasbeen around what if I lose
things and people that I love?
(57:34):
Um, it just helped me to knowlike, yes, this is part of the
package.
Right, yes, it is, and this isa shitty part of the package,
(57:55):
but it doesn't make thebeautiful stuff not worth it and
you can do it.
Um, for all the books I've everread, my favorite is still Feel
the Fear and Do it Anyway.
It's my favorite.
It's, you know, it's a classicand I feel like it never goes
out of style because at theheart of that book and, excuse
me one second, I have it righton my shelf.
So I want to name the author,even though I know that she's
passed, but just to give her thecredit she deserves.
(58:20):
Susan Jeffers, Ph.
D.
, wrote Feel the Fear and Do itAnyway, and her whole thing is
just just keep on working, oncultivating within yourself that
if the thing I'm fearinghappens, I will get through it,
I can handle it.
Yeah, I can handle it and that'shelped me immensely and as much
(58:43):
as I would change it in asecond if I could bring my dad
back, because I've moved throughthe phase of accepting that
this was part of his story andour family's story.
For him to pass when he did Um,I just say, okay, like what?
What can I learn from this?
(59:04):
What can I share with otherpeople?
How can I take what happenedand just turn it into help for
anybody that can be helped?
And and that was it it was likewe had to give him permission
to go.
That was part of it.
So we're standing around his bed, we got to bring him home, he
(59:26):
got to die at home and givinghim permission to go, and just
every step of that oh, this isthe worst fear I used to obsess
over when I was eight realizedlike this sucks and I'm doing it
and I don't want to be doing it, but I'm doing it and I'm
moving through it, and so that'sit.
(59:50):
So when we're anxiously fearingthis might happen, this might
happen, just saying I don't wantthat to happen, it's kind of a
waste of my time to dwell.
Gabe Nathan (01:00:00):
But if the worst were to happen, I have evidence
that that I can get through ityeah, which you didn't have
around the time of writing thisessay for a lot of things, and
that's, I feel like that's ahuge part of what's changed for
(01:00:21):
you.
That thunderclap has come andyou're still standing, and what
you were saying also reminds mea lot of what my mother used to
say to me when I was learningabout death as a kid and talking
to her about how scared I wasabout her dying and about me
dying and all of that.
(01:00:41):
And she said you know, Gabriel,if you spend your entire life
worried about that, you're notgoing to enjoy life and it's
going to take so much from you.
And I just ignored what shesaid and I've just worried about
it all the time.
Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
It's hard.
Jerzy Jung (01:01:02):
It's so easier said than done.
It is, it is.
Gabe Nathan (01:01:05):
But it's a process.
It's a whole lifelong processof feeling that fear and that
scared and letting yourself feelit and putting it aside for a
bit.
And so you know I'm going torevisit that again later and I
know it's going to come backlater, but I can't live with it
(01:01:28):
in the forefront.
Um, or it'll just be too much.
I'll just overpower everything.
So, well before we say farewell, I would love you to sing us
out, if you wouldn't mind, withthe song Everything Will Kill
(01:01:52):
you.
It's a favorite of mine thankyou so much.
(Jerzy performs song.
)Goddamn, god damn.
(01:06:43):
I always told people I wantedto be.
Sometimes I want to be a dj andafter a really amazing song
plays, just hit the mic and gofuck, but then my career would
be very short.
Um so wonderful, jersey.
Thank you for performing thatfor us and for being here today.
(01:07:06):
Where can people find you andyour music?
Jerzy Jung (01:07:09):
Oh, thank you so much.
This has just been.
I'm a writer.
There's not words for howspecial this was, so thank you
so so much.
You're welcome.
People can find me on Instagram.
My handle is Jerzy Jung.
(01:07:30):
You can find my music onBandcamp and I'm working to get
it out on streaming platforms aswell.
Gabe Nathan (01:07:33):
So I would say those are the best places,
awesome.
Thank you so so much, and bewell, let's do this again some
time.
Jerzy Jung (01:07:41):
Thank you so much.
Gabe Nathan (01:07:47):
Thank you again for joining us in conversation
today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Very special thank you to JerzyJung singer, songwriter,
pianist and actor from NewJersey, now living in LA.
What a voice, what a heart,what a human being.
So grateful to her for sharingher time, her talent and her
(01:08:10):
empathy with us here today onRecovery Diaries In-Depth.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
(01:08:32):
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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