September 1, 2025 • 47 mins
Elizabeth Ann Devine is a non-binary author living with ADHD, PTSD, OCD, and dissociative identity disorder. They have been twice published on Recovery Diaries, and we were delighted to welcome them onto Recovery Diaries in Depth to share their powerful journey of using writing as both survival mechanism and healing practice.
From early childhood, Elizabeth found sanctuary in libraries, using books and later their own writing as ways to process trauma and family dysfunction. "I probably write more than I live," they admit, highlighting a compulsive creative practice that became essential when other avenues for support proved inaccessible or harmful.
Their essay "The Plight of the One-Person Mental Health Support System" offers a raw, unfiltered glimpse into living with complex mental health challenges while navigating family relationships shaped by generational trauma. "It's like popping a zit" Elizabeth says about writing, and some of its consequences of breaking family cycles of secrecy, including estrangement and lost relationships.
"I'm compulsively honest," they say about themselves. Elizabeth has chosen to share their experiences publicly not just for personal healing but to create connection points for others facing similar struggles. The conversation touches on how broader political contexts impact mental health, particularly for marginalized communities, while still finding ways to choose "hope over fear" through daily practices of self-care, creativity, and helping others.
Elizabeth's essays are as creative as they are brave, and we are honored to have them as part of our community of mental health storytellers. Subscribe to our podcast for more conversations that illuminate the complex, challenging, and ultimately hopeful journeys of recovery.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so happy to have as ourguest on Recovery Diaries
In-Depth today Elizabeth AnnDevine.
They're a non-binary author,diarist and poet.
They're also a model actor,filmmaker and paranormal
(00:37):
investigator on the autisticspectrum.
Thank you, hunger CrawlsThrough Me, a Moment of Living
with Familiar Rejection and DID.
And the piece Elizabeth isgoing to read today the Plight
of the One-Person Mental HealthSupport System.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
(01:00):
since initially being publishedon our website.
Since initially being publishedon our website, our goal is to
continue supporting our diversecommunity by having
conversations here on ourpodcast to follow up and see
what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
(01:20):
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow.
(01:43):
And, of course, make sure tolike, share and subscribe.
Elizabeth Devine, I'm sodelighted to have you here.
Welcome to Recovery DiariesIn-Depth.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Diaries in Depth, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
You are so welcome, and I wantto start by thinking back to
2022, when I received your firstsubmission to us, and it's
called the Plight of theOne-Person Mental Health Support
System, which we're luckyenough to be having you read
aloud on the program today injust a little bit.
(02:30):
So stay tuned for that.
You're not going to want tomiss that, and I read everything
that comes to the site, all theinitial submissions, and people
come to us from all over theworld right To tell their mental
health recovery stories, andnot everybody who lives with
mental health challenges is agreat writer and that's just a
(02:54):
fact.
You are, oh thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I was really justblown away by the uniqueness of
your essay, the creativity andthe way in which you use words
(03:18):
and there's like a vividness andelectricity in the way you
storytell.
And electricity in the way youstorytell and I just want to
know, yeah, what is your, what'syour background in writing and
your experience, and how did youget into writing?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It was first an obsession with reading really
early on, and then I became acompulsive writer.
So it is actually the way inwhich I held on through
everything.
Um, I've written.
I've lost more than um, youknow, I've uh, I used it as a
(04:11):
compulsive form of copingmechanism.
It might even be related to OCD, because I have to write a
certain amount, and then acertain amount, and then a
certain amount before I can doanything else with the day, but,
um, I spilled everything outall the time in journals and
reading.
Reading is what got me throughschool and writing is what got
(04:33):
me through life, dissociatingfrom a lot of what was going on
around me.
So it just it's.
I probably write more than Ilive.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Who were some of your favorite authors growing up?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, I have a lot and a lot of poets too, and a lot of
songwriters.
Lorena McKinnett as asongwriter.
I'm trying to remember MayaAngelou.
I love Maya Angelou's poetry.
I don't know, oh, the Giver,the story of the.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Giver.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Lewis Lowry.
That one, a fifth grade teacher, let me steal Because the rest
of the class didn't want to gothrough it because it was more
complex.
Fiction kept me going a lot,imagining a world other than the
one that I grew up in.
(05:40):
Yeah, but my grandmother wasalso a poet and the first
published poet of my family andmy mom made sure to make sure I
was obsessed with reading veryearly on and I just dissociated
(06:00):
from the school around me andfrom life around me and that's
all I did.
And you know, I'm just now kindof learning to live like step
outside of survival mode.
But I use um writing and theworks of others to cope.
And, yeah, I have so many greatinfluences, I've had so many
(06:29):
great influences.
The library is what kept megoing.
I grew up in libraries morethan I did in classes or even at
home.
So, yes, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
My mother was a public librarian and I would say
that I grew up in a library too, because I would go there after
school but I didn't read.
I would just sit in the backand listen to the librarians
gossip and bitch about patrons,or about each other patrons or
(07:05):
about each other Um, and I wouldplay with the typewriter.
They would have typewriters inthe back, um that they would,
you know, type on the librarycards, um, uh, and back when you
know they used those, um.
But I look back on that and I'mlike God, I really should have
been reading when I was spendingall that time at the library.
How different my life mighthave been.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
But you absorb a lot of the atmosphere in libraries
too.
Each library is such a magicalatmosphere.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And yeah, and enjoying all of the librarians
and you know, even just thesmell of the books, I mean I
still remember it.
And the library had a littlelibrary pet.
They had a guinea pig.
His name was Portia.
You know, it's all of thosememories.
It's very immersive.
(08:00):
But I want to ask you about thisnotion of writing.
But I want to ask you aboutthis notion of writing, and so,
as someone who runs a mentalhealth publication, obviously I
love writing and I love creativeexpression and I've been
writing all my life.
But there's this notion of andyou kind of touched on this
(08:22):
using writing as a copingmechanism, or this idea of
writing as therapeutic.
And I've I've heard people talkabout writing as therapeutic.
I've heard of people talk aboutwriting as cathartic.
Um, and I felt that too, likewhen I've sat down and I've just
like I've been feelingsomething and I just push a
(08:44):
personal essay out and it's likean hour at the keyboard and
it's like out into the world andyou feel different afterwards,
maybe a little bit lighter,maybe a little bit more hopeful.
But I'm curious to hear fromyou what your thoughts are.
(09:04):
Do you view writing astherapeutic?
Do you view it as cathartic?
What is the experience like foryou?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's pain.
It's like, after the beautifulway you described it, honestly,
in some ways I almost think ofit as popping a zit.
I'm with you.
It as popping as it.
I'm with you because it's likethere's just this you know,
there's this tremendous amountof pain and you're like okay, I
(09:32):
need to start writing now andI'll start, and I do 10 minute
timers first because I don'tthink about what I'm writing.
I just you know, that's theediting part.
I just get out whatever isgoing to float to the surface
and it hurts.
Whatever it is, it hurts and ithurts, and it hurts and it
(09:55):
hurts, and then the timer goesoff and it's like popping a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I mean I'm curious too about.
I mean I'm trying to getthrough the visual imagery which
a lot of people love.
I mean that people lovewatching that Dr Pimple Popper
on.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
TikTok mentally.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's my life there's something there, but,
like, go back to what you werefeeling when you wrote that that
initial essay for us.
Did you?
Did you fear sending it?
Uh, is this?
I mean, is this the first timethat you've written publicly
(10:42):
about things like this?
And we're going to get intowhat things like this are when
we talk about the essay and whenyou read it.
But it's incredibly vulnerable,as all of our essays are, I
think, to varying degrees, butthis one in particular.
So what was the experience likefor you, writing it and also
(11:05):
thinking about sending it,sending it, waiting for the
reply, if you can remember.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's always an exercise of show up afraid, be
afraid, do it anyway, of used tothe be afraid, do it anyway,
because I've been sending stuffoff sometimes ridiculous stuff
since I was 16.
And I accidentally kind of gota poem published at 17.
(11:33):
So I'm like, okay, I guess I'llkeep doing it, but yeah, I'm
obsessed with the writing part.
It took a lot.
I'm obsessed with the writingpart.
It took a lot, it takes a lotto get up to actually sending it
to someone.
I have to look over it to deathand then I'm still like, no,
but okay, there it goes.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, and I think it's very different to be
writing a work of fiction, forinstance, um, then writing about
your own life, and I thinkthere's a lot.
There's a lot at stake, and youknow you could make a decision
to keep all of this private, tojust journal, and you know we
(12:18):
hear so much in the mentalhealth sphere about journaling
and how journaling is healthy,and you know journaling is
lovely and you should journalevery day, but there's nobody
out there really going.
You should really be writingabout your life and send it to
an online publication so thatthey can put it out into the
world for anybody to see.
(12:38):
So what?
What was it in you that madeyou want to not just keep this
private, not just keep thisclose to the vest, but to put
this out there?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Compulsion.
I grew up.
You know, in one evaluation Ihad it said extreme likelihood
of autism.
But I could have told you that.
And the thing is I don't havethat filter, I've never had that
(13:13):
filter and it got me in troubleand destroyed so many of my
relationships.
And they're also the ones thatkind of had to go if they can't
live up to honesty.
I just kind of I'm compulsivelyhonest, like when people say,
(13:38):
hey, I'm going to tell you asecret.
I'm like are you sure that'snot?
He's like I'll be your friend,I'll be there for you.
Um, but I don't.
I don't take people's secretsanymore because I had too many,
there was too many growing upand I don't know.
(14:00):
I compulsively share knowledge.
It's.
If this is what I have, thenthat's what came out Great.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
And I'm just along for the ride.
Yeah, I resonate very much withthis idea of growing up with
too many secrets, and it isdefinitely something that um
compels me to write, uh, towrite about my mental health, to
write about my family, uh, asan act of.
I don't know if it's rebellion,but it's.
(14:37):
I think it's very similar towhen you have a child, uh, and
the parents are very either likesuper religious or just super
conservative or supercontrolling and restricting the
child's movements and what theycan do and what they can't do,
and eventually the child isgoing to act out against that,
(14:59):
and I think the same is true.
You know, I tell people I camefrom a, we don't talk about that
family, um, and when you'reraised that way, eventually
you're going to talk about it,um, and I wonder I mean, I just
want to hear some of yourthoughts about that, about the,
(15:21):
the, the consequences of secretsand what that does to a person.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, yeah, I think people like us, who you know, we
talk about the things in thefamily that nobody does.
It's like a built-in pressurevalve.
Eventually it's got to gosomewhere.
It's like nature will evolve amouth that will tell these
(15:50):
things.
If you don't, you know naturewill give you, will give you one
who does.
Um, and I think you know a lotof society is built on secrets
and secrets and there areconsequences for sure for
(16:12):
telling them, for being apressure valve.
Socially there are consequences, but it's Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I was just curious if you could talk about some of
those consequences for yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, at least one half of my family doesn't speak
to me anymore, which, when theydid, it was all manipulation and
things like that.
So, okay, a lot of people falloff.
Um, a lot of people fall offlike they, you know, there's
(16:53):
I've had to let go of a lot ofpeople because I would have a
lot more writing out if I hadn't, and some also some secrets
other people are not meant tokeep for you, like when you give
someone a secret, you've got tounderstand there's a level of
burden, especially if you'regiving one to your kids or your
(17:14):
grandkids.
It's like that's a burden.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
He's like, no, no, no , no, no, no, that's for you,
that one's for you, that one'sfor you, and it's such a weighty
thing to think about andconsider breaking the thing,
(17:38):
because keeping a secret holds abunch of things together, right
, and they're not always healthythings, but they keep
everything on the even keel,which oftentimes is what family
structures are built on.
They're built on this veryfragile, very tenuous thing that
(18:01):
if you tell, if you talk, thehouse of cards comes down and of
course you're the one who'sgoing to pay for that, because
keeping up appearances, thatveneer of family, it's just so
precious and so important topeople, and I think people will
(18:32):
do almost anything to protectthat um, and oftentimes what
they're protecting is veryshameful.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, it's um, my, I know my mother didn't know how
to cope with it or doesn't knowhow, um, and then you know her
having kids too much.
They're like.
She broke some cycles, which isa great thing, and she
continued others, like theweighty demands on the uh, you
(19:03):
know the eldest.
I have eldest daughter syndromeessentially, but she also did
her best to protect me from someexperiences too.
The problem is I had to go topsychology classes to figure it
(19:29):
out, the way that you can layerthe family trauma on people.
It's a process of just slowlytaking that off and
understanding okay, this piececame from here, that piece came
from there.
What in all this is actuallymine, what in all this is
actually my?
And you know, when you're fullof the little secrets, then you
(19:53):
get a writer in the family, youget someone in the family with a
big mouth.
Stuff's going to come out.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
A big mouth and a lot of talent.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
You're far more than just a big mouth, but you know
talking about your mother.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, she shared too much information.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Right.
Reconcile the damage that wasdone to you by her with the good
things, with the ways in whichshe protected you or tried.
What do you, what do you dowith all of that?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
um, I, I, you know that's a good question.
I went through a lot as a kid.
She would remind me how muchshe went through as a kid.
There was just it was alwaystoo much, it was always too much
(21:05):
.
There are some things that youjust don't deal with.
They just float around thesurface and eventually you might
find like journaling or freewriting or art or poetry or
whatever you use to just kind of, you know, process the memories
(21:27):
.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Was therapy part of that for you?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It's very difficult to find therapists when you have
the kind of damage that youknow they write in the warnings
and stuff.
But then you know you spill outon the first assessment and
(21:54):
they'll say we're, I'm notqualified for you, I need to
pass on to someone else, andit's like dude, I'm just trying
which has to feel great to hearoh yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah,
but you know it's been adifficult journey in that regard
(22:18):
, so I had to turn to writing.
I had to turn to other things.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, there comes a time when you just have to help
yourself.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, one person.
I called a emergency line inCalifornia.
You know one of those for Acrisis line.
Yeah, and you know she asked mewhat was up.
So this damn broke and I startedcussing out all these people,
none of which were her, by theway right right but she hung up
(22:52):
on me wow yeah, and then Icalled the same crisis line back
and you know, I asked for asupervisor and I'm like, hey, I
wasn't cussing at this girl, Iwas just cussing in general
because everything is you know.
So she stonewalled me.
(23:17):
She pretty much said that shehad the right to hang up on me
because of, you know, bullying,language or whatever, and she
just stonewalled me until I hungup.
So I was like no, you don'twork at a crisis line if you
can't stand some guessing.
What puritan nonsense is this?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
People in crisis are going to be crisising.
Right, they're going to saycrisis things.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
They are going to be crisis-ing, right.
They're going to say crisisthings.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
They are going to say crisis things.
That's an awful experience.
I'm sorry that you had to gothrough that because, also as a
suicide awareness advocate, andas someone who encourages people
to reach out for help.
I know how hard it can be toeven get to the point where you
(24:09):
pick up the phone to call andfor some people it takes years
to work up the courage to do itand to then get someone on the
line who can't hack it, who'sjust like nope, bye.
What a rejection and what asense of abandonment.
Um, so I'm sorry that you hadto go through that who you gonna
(24:32):
call, not them no, apparentlynot.
Um, wow.
Well, I would love to, at thispoint, move into your essay, um,
which I'm so proud to have onour site, and we have another
one up there, a more recentpiece, but this one, uh, was
(24:55):
written in, published in 2022and it is called the plight of
the one person mental healthsupport system and, whenever
you're ready, love to hear youread it.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
The expectation is still there that my mom can keep
talking to me about men whohave abused her in detail,
sometimes including herpedophile father and my drunken
one, like she did when I was apreteen and teen.
Those things haunt my sexuality, so I shut myself off to
hearing or feeling her pain orallowing her to share it with me
, because it all hurts and Iassociate her with sexual
(25:29):
assault and sexual victimization, which is an awkward feeling to
have about your mother.
According to her, when I wasreally young, I once saw her
raped by a security guard fromthe tech firm she worked at.
I don't remember thatspecifically, but I do remember
at that age seeing sexualviolent scenes in movies because
(25:51):
they were everywhere, like Clanof the Cave Bear, one of my
mom's favorite movies.
The only counter-influence Ifound that empowered women
instead of harming ordiminishing them, was Catwoman
from Batman, with her whip herclaws, her powerful moves and
absolutely no tolerance foraggression, domine, whip her
claws, her powerful moves andabsolutely no tolerance for
aggression, domineering orviolence from men.
I would only later come torealize and appreciate that my
(26:14):
mom was a cycle breaker, fleeingboth her family and the other
half of mine in order to keep meaway from the violence, so I
didn't grow up with the constantpresence of it.
So I didn't grow up with theconstant presence of it.
I think we need more cat women.
We don't have a choice, withthe country falling into the
(26:36):
hands of men who think that andlegislate so women can't make
their own choices and who makemedical calls for women when
they know nothing about femaleanatomy, medicine, pregnancy,
birth risks, birth control, etc.
I keep saying that, yet keephiding away, locked in my room
in the dark, typing like mad andsmelling myself the tang of my
feet and the crotch of my pajamapants because I stayed in bed
(27:00):
for a day.
I collapse inward when theworld becomes too much.
And yet I've written more thanever before, every day, timed.
This is a 30-minute timedwriting exercise in which I
won't allow myself to stop, nomatter what I write.
No time to pause and think,because that's a job for editing
.
Get it out.
Get it out the words that shoutbetween your ears and burn
(27:23):
holes of anxiety in your gut.
Words were the original magic,the true magic the privileged
men always tried to take awayfrom others.
Don't let someone read, speakand orate.
Then you don't let them, thinkand express the world around
them the injustice of theirexperiences.
I may have to run for office,but it haunts me.
If anything, I want to take allforms of power so I can destroy
(27:47):
them.
There might always be leadersand followers, but there's no
legitimate authority unlessconsented to.
It makes it difficult to seekhelp for my mental health when I
don't trust the sanity oftrained professionals.
After all, they probablybelieve in a number of mass
delusions money, authority,borders, nation states, the
(28:10):
veracity and validity of theirtraining, gods.
How can I ask a person likethat for help when anything I
say might be considered thesymptom of an illness or a
disability?
I've certainly tried, gotten afew diagnoses and a lot of
hemming and hawing about aboatload more for my troubles,
(28:31):
and I discovered that mosttherapy programs are built by
and for cognitively normativeindividuals who can do things
like get presentable, to bearound others every day and show
up to a thing on time everyweek or every other week and
remember appointments and things, people who don't lose days at
a time.
Is it too much to ask to havethe same walk-in hours that
(28:56):
aren't just for signing up, orhaving some walk-in hours that
aren't just for signing up.
It's freezing today.
The porch covered in a blanketof faded orange and brown leaves
, water in a discarded plasticcontainer has frozen at just the
first centimeter of surface.
The air bit at my fingertipswhen I went out there.
(29:19):
Even pads of my feet arealready cold.
When I went out with tennisshoes, but sockless, all five
chickens were clustered insidethe spare board house.
So I said goodnight and closedthe door, slipping the wooden
brace on top over it.
Sometimes I sing the sleepychicken song, but I was in haste
(29:41):
and it was already dark, sothere was no concert.
I was shocked.
I could step outside when PTSDusually chokes my bravery.
And it was already dark, sothere was no concert.
I was shocked.
I could step outside when PTSDusually chokes my bravery to
wander from the house at night,unless it's someplace brightly
lit or sparsely populated at anyhour.
Now it's time to shower.
No kidding, my God.
You smell like a zoo animal'svagina.
(30:03):
I don't want to know how you'dknow that I don't.
I was just calling you a zooanimal's vagina.
I don't want to know how you'dknow that I don't.
I was just calling you a zooanimal and pointing out the
smell wafting up from yourTinkerbell pajamas.
It wouldn't be so bad if itweren't a day old.
All right, this is getting mean.
How did we get here again?
(30:23):
I have no plans, but too toomany.
They swap my mind when I don'ttake my adhd meds.
Maybe I just have too manypeople inside, each from their
each with their own tastes,preferences, triggers and
ambitions for life.
Primarily, we want to write, butthere's also the actor and the
(30:44):
conqueror of man.
There's the queer one whobreezes through life and
different states without a plan.
There's the one that wants towork with corpses, ancient or
fresh.
There's the one that wantsnothing to do with anyone or any
mess.
How happy to see them.
Sometimes I am At least.
(31:04):
We all like to write every daythousands of words.
So that could be a plan.
We need to because there's noway for us to function without
it.
There's a difference betweensomeone who wants to write and
someone who needs to write.
Both can become good writers,but the one who needs to write,
they can't function without it.
My verbal communication breaksdown and the words become a
(31:27):
spiraling vortex turned into aknot of anxiety in my chest, my
gut, my heart that races when Ifirst wake up if I don't release
them all.
It's too much, but I need it.
We all do.
None of us are ourselveswithout reading and writing.
Without reading and writing, mymom paces around the kitchen
near my bedroom door, a blanket,and I sit in the dark in front
(31:50):
of my screen because I need to,but also to avoid her.
When you associate your momwith abuse and sexual abuse that
she experienced, everyinteraction can become squeamish
and uncomfortable.
I guess if she wanted me tospend time, she wouldn't have
spilled the encounters with herdad and my father to me before I
(32:11):
was 13 years old and on and offsince, or insisted on moving in
with me and my boyfriend, thefirst man I ever found, with
either no ego at all or notenough for me to destroy.
No, I don't know how I'm even alittle bit straight either.
(32:34):
It might help a little thathe's on the submissive side.
I hurt when my mother hurts, sosometimes I slam down the walls
in my empathy around her so Iwon't hurt.
But then she's all alone, veryfew friends, just my younger
brother, dustin, in his roomplaying games all the time Alone
in the smallest room in thetrailer with smoky air and a bed
(32:56):
filling most of it she sits andstares and shows on her
computer and makes a database totrack all the lottery numbers,
as if there was a way to predictrandom, which she believes
after 20 mostly unsuccessfulyears.
But who knows, maybe there is.
She used to help buildsatellites.
(33:18):
I sigh in the dark, hunched overmy knee, my feet are freezing
blocks of ice.
I should consider puttingexercise on the list and wearing
the fuzzy slippers.
Someone recently gave meLeopard print with red bows, so
hideous but useful.
Considering I'm wearing blackpajama bottoms with pictures of
Tinkerbell on it that my mombought me for Christmas, I don't
(33:40):
think I have much room tocomplain about ugly slippers.
To complain about ugly slippers, I don't care what people think
of my appearance, becausepeople dictating what is
appropriate for me to wear isjust another way to wrestle
control from women viamanipulation.
I'm a model slash dom slashwrestler who doesn't want to be
anymore.
I don't want to hear one moreword about what men want.
(34:04):
In all my fucking life.
They filled me to the brim withtheir desires, made me dress up
like they wanted for money Ineeded, filmed me making a fool
of myself Even if it wasn't nudeor porn, it was still me,
diminishing my intelligence andbetraying who I am so that they
could jerk off.
(34:24):
I still do it sometimes when Iget desperate for money, which
is all the time, because mysymptoms of illness and
incompatibility with peoplewhose worlds are upheld by mass
delusions are so extreme that Ican't go near people I work with
after a few weeks, and myindependent nature and demand
(34:44):
that no one, especially men,give me orders about where to be
, when, what to wear or how toact, will assert itself.
Even if I need the check orcash.
Writing is the only chance Ihave, or I might as well roll up
my life and smoke it like hash.
(35:04):
There's nothing for me but theword, not a religion, but a
magic practice of mixing andmatching, making sense of the
senseless and senseless storiesto appease me, not the masses.
No one need demand it from me,because it's the thing I do
without being told, the thingthat holds me to the world, just
because it's so damn fun to do.
If I return to the ooze or theatmosphere, how long would it be
(35:25):
before I grew fingers again?
I'm hungry, my stomach hurts.
My stomach burns with it.
I'm also too lazy to leave thekeyboard.
My ADHD meds usually help mewith that, but lately I've been
counting the hours I've had formyself and wanting nothing but
writing for them and realizingthrough my writing that I have
some serious problems to dealwith and or seriously need to
(35:48):
escape my situation.
Problems to deal with and or aseriously need to escape my
situation it's a familytradition to run away.
My parents, my mom and stepdad,ran from Philadelphia to
Arizona, to Alabama, to Georgia,to Florida, back to Georgia
again, and never managed toescape themselves, at least not
until my stepdad died of brainand lung cancer a few months ago
.
At the same time I've tried toroot in one place on the front
(36:13):
lines of misogyny in the UnitedStates, and coming back to
Georgia and coming back againand again has just felt like an
inability to leave a badrelationship.
To be honest, I wish I knew theway from here.
I wish the many memories I haveof trying to find help in the
world of the blind had beenfilled with kindness.
The beginning was, I think, mrsEstes and Mrs Green, who pulled
(36:36):
me aside in a school inTuscaloosa, alabama, and got me
to talk, which led me down along winding web of trying to
find more help and encounteringmisunderstandings common of the
disabled.
Help and encounteringmisunderstandings common of the
disabled and misunderstandingsof reality.
We all run into our own cyclesand beliefs in which we cling so
(36:58):
many unnecessary boundariesthrough policies that make
getting help and staying in aprogram so difficult, such a
need for personal boundaries athome in ways that go beyond just
running as fast as I can.
That was seven years ago.
That was the beginning.
You need to see the problembefore you come up with a plan.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Thank you so much for reading that.
It's wonderful to hear it inyour own voice.
It's wonderful to hear it inyour own voice.
(37:57):
It's such a powerful, strongpiece and there's so, so much in
there.
It's fascinating how muchyou're able to 2022, and now we
are in 2025.
And one of the things that isquite different just not on a
personal level, but on anational level is politics.
And, um, you know, a lot ofpeople say, oh, don't, don't get
political and don't mix.
But I think that's suchbullshit.
(38:21):
You can't divorce something asas huge from mental health or
women's rights or LGBTQIA issues, and there's just this full-on
assault against everything andeveryone who isn't a white,
(38:42):
straight, christian male, and Ijust want to hear from you about
how you're coping with what'sgoing on.
I don't even want to say hisname, but you know what I'm
talking about.
What has this been like for you,and how are you keeping
(39:02):
yourself together?
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I am definitely.
Do you mind if I move this forbetter light?
Because I've, I don't mind atall.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Do whatever you need to do.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So I wouldn't exactly call it coping.
That was.
You know, the reelection waspossibly one of the worst nights
of my life, but so copinghasn't really been a thing.
I've been trying to find places, pockets in the world that are
(39:38):
a little better.
Uh, you know, whether it'sPennsylvania or New York.
You know I'm trying to to findhow bad Georgia got.
Okay, let me backtrack a little.
I actually wrote the essaycloser to, probably, 2016.
(40:00):
Then I finally got it out intothe world in 2022.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Things had been bad even way back.
Then it had been a few way backthen.
Yep, it might have, becausethat was Trump 1.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
It had been a few years.
Yes, yes, it was.
Yeah, it had been a processgetting it out into the world.
But yeah, mental health iscompletely political, because
what is going on in your worldis pretty much the first step to
(40:31):
figuring it out.
I mean, there is what's goingon within yourself, but there's
also what's going on in yourworld and it's always, you know,
a balancing act.
You can't balance with fascism,like there's no balance there.
There is no balance therewhatsoever.
Um, especially especially whenyou have neurodivergent people,
(40:59):
we have, you know, uh, the, the,what is it the?
Uh, pattern recognition.
You know, like, the patternrecognition qualities.
So you know what's going tohappen, years before it actually
starts happening.
And you're telling everyone,hey, this is bad, this is really
(41:21):
bad.
And they're like nah, nah, it'sfine, we, we can't live there,
it's like, but you do, you dolive there.
That's exactly the planet youlive on.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
See, see, this one it's still, it's a journey it's
a journey and and I I tellmyself that it's it's a pendulum
(41:57):
and that it's swinging this wayand that there is going to be a
revolt against it and it'sgoing to swing back and there
will be some amount ofnormalization.
I think so much damage is isnot going to be able to be
undone, but some can.
Um, and I just tell myself, wejust have to hold on and get
through this, um, and and wealso have to do the swinging
(42:21):
yeah that's what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It's a lot to think about because, but at the same
time, I choose hope over fear,and that's all it comes down to
is like what can I do today?
I choose hope over fear.
I have to take care of myself,I have to create something and I
have to maybe do something forsomeone else, and those are kind
(42:45):
of my three, you know, majorgoals in the day, because I need
to take care of me, I need tocreate something and I need to
help someone.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Well, and you know what You're doing.
All three of those when you'rewriting, and the two essays that
you have on OC87 recoverydiaries, are helping yourself.
They are creating and they arehelping other people, and
they're helping other people whoyou don't even know, um,
(43:21):
because these essays are gettingclicked on and they are getting
read by people all over theworld.
Um, some of these people arestruggling with things that you
are living with, with DID or OCDor ADHD trauma.
Some of them are people who aresupporting people who are
living with these mental healthconditions, and they need help
(43:43):
too and they need hope too.
I think that's something thatwe sometimes forget about, like
caregivers, whether they'reclinicians or people living
loved ones, spouses, partners,children of people living with
these mental health challenges.
They need to know that there ishope, that things can get
(44:07):
better, that these mental healthchallenges are not death
sentences, um, and so you,through your creativity and
through your bravery of beingpublic and putting things out
there, um, you're making art andcreativity that's helping
(44:27):
others.
So I just want you to know that.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Thank you, and I really appreciate you providing
a platform for stories like this, because if you can imagine
people going to mental healthhotlines and getting hung up on,
how often do you think thathappens with publishers?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
it's like thank you, but no, that's a bit much well,
we don't hang up on anybody here, um, and everybody's welcome
here, as, as you know, and these, these stories are for everyone
and we want people to know thatthese are real human beings
(45:13):
writing these essays.
This is why we have people usetheir names.
This is why we have people giveus their real photographs.
Um, you know, we don't use likestock images.
We want people to know theseare real human beings, because
there's real human beingsreading this.
So we want that connection andit's such a joy to know that
(45:35):
you're part of this community.
I'm really grateful for you.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Thank you.
I'm really grateful for thecommunity.
So thank you for building one.
It's a good one.
I like it.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
It's a pleasure and a privilege, and I so enjoyed
spending time with you today.
Thank you so so much for beinghere with us.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Thank you for having me.
It's a great honor.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Thank you, elizabeth.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest today, elizabeth Ann
Devine, a non-binary author,diarist and poet.
They live with ADHD, ptsd, ocdand DID dissociative identity
(46:26):
disorder.
You can read Elizabeth'swriting on their website,
eadivinecom, and two of theiressays on our site.
I'm David S videos and contentabout mental health, empowerment
(46:48):
and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so happy to have as ourguest on Recovery Diaries
In-Depth today Elizabeth AnnDevine.
They're a non-binary author,diarist and poet.
They're also a model actor,filmmaker and paranormal
(00:37):
investigator on the autisticspectrum.
Thank you, hunger CrawlsThrough Me, a Moment of Living
with Familiar Rejection and DID.
And the piece Elizabeth isgoing to read today the Plight
of the One-Person Mental HealthSupport System.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
(01:00):
since initially being publishedon our website.
Since initially being publishedon our website, our goal is to
continue supporting our diversecommunity by having
conversations here on ourpodcast to follow up and see
what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
(01:20):
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow.
(01:43):
And, of course, make sure tolike, share and subscribe.
Elizabeth Devine, I'm sodelighted to have you here.
Welcome to Recovery DiariesIn-Depth.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Diaries in Depth, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
You are so welcome, and I wantto start by thinking back to
2022, when I received your firstsubmission to us, and it's
called the Plight of theOne-Person Mental Health Support
System, which we're luckyenough to be having you read
aloud on the program today injust a little bit.
(02:30):
So stay tuned for that.
You're not going to want tomiss that, and I read everything
that comes to the site, all theinitial submissions, and people
come to us from all over theworld right To tell their mental
health recovery stories, andnot everybody who lives with
mental health challenges is agreat writer and that's just a
(02:54):
fact.
You are, oh thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I was really justblown away by the uniqueness of
your essay, the creativity andthe way in which you use words
(03:18):
and there's like a vividness andelectricity in the way you
storytell.
And electricity in the way youstorytell and I just want to
know, yeah, what is your, what'syour background in writing and
your experience, and how did youget into writing?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It was first an obsession with reading really
early on, and then I became acompulsive writer.
So it is actually the way inwhich I held on through
everything.
Um, I've written.
I've lost more than um, youknow, I've uh, I used it as a
(04:11):
compulsive form of copingmechanism.
It might even be related to OCD, because I have to write a
certain amount, and then acertain amount, and then a
certain amount before I can doanything else with the day, but,
um, I spilled everything outall the time in journals and
reading.
Reading is what got me throughschool and writing is what got
(04:33):
me through life, dissociatingfrom a lot of what was going on
around me.
So it just it's.
I probably write more than Ilive.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Who were some of your favorite authors growing up?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, I have a lot and a lot of poets too, and a lot of
songwriters.
Lorena McKinnett as asongwriter.
I'm trying to remember MayaAngelou.
I love Maya Angelou's poetry.
I don't know, oh, the Giver,the story of the.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Giver.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Lewis Lowry.
That one, a fifth grade teacher, let me steal Because the rest
of the class didn't want to gothrough it because it was more
complex.
Fiction kept me going a lot,imagining a world other than the
one that I grew up in.
(05:40):
Yeah, but my grandmother wasalso a poet and the first
published poet of my family andmy mom made sure to make sure I
was obsessed with reading veryearly on and I just dissociated
(06:00):
from the school around me andfrom life around me and that's
all I did.
And you know, I'm just now kindof learning to live like step
outside of survival mode.
But I use um writing and theworks of others to cope.
And, yeah, I have so many greatinfluences, I've had so many
(06:29):
great influences.
The library is what kept megoing.
I grew up in libraries morethan I did in classes or even at
home.
So, yes, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
My mother was a public librarian and I would say
that I grew up in a library too, because I would go there after
school but I didn't read.
I would just sit in the backand listen to the librarians
gossip and bitch about patrons,or about each other patrons or
(07:05):
about each other Um, and I wouldplay with the typewriter.
They would have typewriters inthe back, um that they would,
you know, type on the librarycards, um, uh, and back when you
know they used those, um.
But I look back on that and I'mlike God, I really should have
been reading when I was spendingall that time at the library.
How different my life mighthave been.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
But you absorb a lot of the atmosphere in libraries
too.
Each library is such a magicalatmosphere.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And yeah, and enjoying all of the librarians
and you know, even just thesmell of the books, I mean I
still remember it.
And the library had a littlelibrary pet.
They had a guinea pig.
His name was Portia.
You know, it's all of thosememories.
It's very immersive.
(08:00):
But I want to ask you about thisnotion of writing.
But I want to ask you aboutthis notion of writing, and so,
as someone who runs a mentalhealth publication, obviously I
love writing and I love creativeexpression and I've been
writing all my life.
But there's this notion of andyou kind of touched on this
(08:22):
using writing as a copingmechanism, or this idea of
writing as therapeutic.
And I've I've heard people talkabout writing as therapeutic.
I've heard of people talk aboutwriting as cathartic.
Um, and I felt that too, likewhen I've sat down and I've just
like I've been feelingsomething and I just push a
(08:44):
personal essay out and it's likean hour at the keyboard and
it's like out into the world andyou feel different afterwards,
maybe a little bit lighter,maybe a little bit more hopeful.
But I'm curious to hear fromyou what your thoughts are.
(09:04):
Do you view writing astherapeutic?
Do you view it as cathartic?
What is the experience like foryou?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's pain.
It's like, after the beautifulway you described it, honestly,
in some ways I almost think ofit as popping a zit.
I'm with you.
It as popping as it.
I'm with you because it's likethere's just this you know,
there's this tremendous amountof pain and you're like okay, I
(09:32):
need to start writing now andI'll start, and I do 10 minute
timers first because I don'tthink about what I'm writing.
I just you know, that's theediting part.
I just get out whatever isgoing to float to the surface
and it hurts.
Whatever it is, it hurts and ithurts, and it hurts and it
(09:55):
hurts, and then the timer goesoff and it's like popping a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I mean I'm curious too about.
I mean I'm trying to getthrough the visual imagery which
a lot of people love.
I mean that people lovewatching that Dr Pimple Popper
on.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
TikTok mentally.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's my life there's something there, but,
like, go back to what you werefeeling when you wrote that that
initial essay for us.
Did you?
Did you fear sending it?
Uh, is this?
I mean, is this the first timethat you've written publicly
(10:42):
about things like this?
And we're going to get intowhat things like this are when
we talk about the essay and whenyou read it.
But it's incredibly vulnerable,as all of our essays are, I
think, to varying degrees, butthis one in particular.
So what was the experience likefor you, writing it and also
(11:05):
thinking about sending it,sending it, waiting for the
reply, if you can remember.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's always an exercise of show up afraid, be
afraid, do it anyway, of used tothe be afraid, do it anyway,
because I've been sending stuffoff sometimes ridiculous stuff
since I was 16.
And I accidentally kind of gota poem published at 17.
(11:33):
So I'm like, okay, I guess I'llkeep doing it, but yeah, I'm
obsessed with the writing part.
It took a lot.
I'm obsessed with the writingpart.
It took a lot, it takes a lotto get up to actually sending it
to someone.
I have to look over it to deathand then I'm still like, no,
but okay, there it goes.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, and I think it's very different to be
writing a work of fiction, forinstance, um, then writing about
your own life, and I thinkthere's a lot.
There's a lot at stake, and youknow you could make a decision
to keep all of this private, tojust journal, and you know we
(12:18):
hear so much in the mentalhealth sphere about journaling
and how journaling is healthy,and you know journaling is
lovely and you should journalevery day, but there's nobody
out there really going.
You should really be writingabout your life and send it to
an online publication so thatthey can put it out into the
world for anybody to see.
(12:38):
So what?
What was it in you that madeyou want to not just keep this
private, not just keep thisclose to the vest, but to put
this out there?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Compulsion.
I grew up.
You know, in one evaluation Ihad it said extreme likelihood
of autism.
But I could have told you that.
And the thing is I don't havethat filter, I've never had that
(13:13):
filter and it got me in troubleand destroyed so many of my
relationships.
And they're also the ones thatkind of had to go if they can't
live up to honesty.
I just kind of I'm compulsivelyhonest, like when people say,
(13:38):
hey, I'm going to tell you asecret.
I'm like are you sure that'snot?
He's like I'll be your friend,I'll be there for you.
Um, but I don't.
I don't take people's secretsanymore because I had too many,
there was too many growing upand I don't know.
(14:00):
I compulsively share knowledge.
It's.
If this is what I have, thenthat's what came out Great.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
And I'm just along for the ride.
Yeah, I resonate very much withthis idea of growing up with
too many secrets, and it isdefinitely something that um
compels me to write, uh, towrite about my mental health, to
write about my family, uh, asan act of.
I don't know if it's rebellion,but it's.
(14:37):
I think it's very similar towhen you have a child, uh, and
the parents are very either likesuper religious or just super
conservative or supercontrolling and restricting the
child's movements and what theycan do and what they can't do,
and eventually the child isgoing to act out against that,
(14:59):
and I think the same is true.
You know, I tell people I camefrom a, we don't talk about that
family, um, and when you'reraised that way, eventually
you're going to talk about it,um, and I wonder I mean, I just
want to hear some of yourthoughts about that, about the,
(15:21):
the, the consequences of secretsand what that does to a person.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, yeah, I think people like us, who you know, we
talk about the things in thefamily that nobody does.
It's like a built-in pressurevalve.
Eventually it's got to gosomewhere.
It's like nature will evolve amouth that will tell these
(15:50):
things.
If you don't, you know naturewill give you, will give you one
who does.
Um, and I think you know a lotof society is built on secrets
and secrets and there areconsequences for sure for
(16:12):
telling them, for being apressure valve.
Socially there are consequences, but it's Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I was just curious if you could talk about some of
those consequences for yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, at least one half of my family doesn't speak
to me anymore, which, when theydid, it was all manipulation and
things like that.
So, okay, a lot of people falloff.
Um, a lot of people fall offlike they, you know, there's
(16:53):
I've had to let go of a lot ofpeople because I would have a
lot more writing out if I hadn't, and some also some secrets
other people are not meant tokeep for you, like when you give
someone a secret, you've got tounderstand there's a level of
burden, especially if you'regiving one to your kids or your
(17:14):
grandkids.
It's like that's a burden.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
He's like, no, no, no , no, no, no, that's for you,
that one's for you, that one'sfor you, and it's such a weighty
thing to think about andconsider breaking the thing,
(17:38):
because keeping a secret holds abunch of things together, right
, and they're not always healthythings, but they keep
everything on the even keel,which oftentimes is what family
structures are built on.
They're built on this veryfragile, very tenuous thing that
(18:01):
if you tell, if you talk, thehouse of cards comes down and of
course you're the one who'sgoing to pay for that, because
keeping up appearances, thatveneer of family, it's just so
precious and so important topeople, and I think people will
(18:32):
do almost anything to protectthat um, and oftentimes what
they're protecting is veryshameful.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, it's um, my, I know my mother didn't know how
to cope with it or doesn't knowhow, um, and then you know her
having kids too much.
They're like.
She broke some cycles, which isa great thing, and she
continued others, like theweighty demands on the uh, you
(19:03):
know the eldest.
I have eldest daughter syndromeessentially, but she also did
her best to protect me from someexperiences too.
The problem is I had to go topsychology classes to figure it
(19:29):
out, the way that you can layerthe family trauma on people.
It's a process of just slowlytaking that off and
understanding okay, this piececame from here, that piece came
from there.
What in all this is actuallymine, what in all this is
actually my?
And you know, when you're fullof the little secrets, then you
(19:53):
get a writer in the family, youget someone in the family with a
big mouth.
Stuff's going to come out.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
A big mouth and a lot of talent.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
You're far more than just a big mouth, but you know
talking about your mother.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, she shared too much information.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Right.
Reconcile the damage that wasdone to you by her with the good
things, with the ways in whichshe protected you or tried.
What do you, what do you dowith all of that?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
um, I, I, you know that's a good question.
I went through a lot as a kid.
She would remind me how muchshe went through as a kid.
There was just it was alwaystoo much, it was always too much
(21:05):
.
There are some things that youjust don't deal with.
They just float around thesurface and eventually you might
find like journaling or freewriting or art or poetry or
whatever you use to just kind of, you know, process the memories
(21:27):
.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Was therapy part of that for you?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It's very difficult to find therapists when you have
the kind of damage that youknow they write in the warnings
and stuff.
But then you know you spill outon the first assessment and
(21:54):
they'll say we're, I'm notqualified for you, I need to
pass on to someone else, andit's like dude, I'm just trying
which has to feel great to hearoh yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah,
but you know it's been adifficult journey in that regard
(22:18):
, so I had to turn to writing.
I had to turn to other things.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, there comes a time when you just have to help
yourself.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, one person.
I called a emergency line inCalifornia.
You know one of those for Acrisis line.
Yeah, and you know she asked mewhat was up.
So this damn broke and I startedcussing out all these people,
none of which were her, by theway right right but she hung up
(22:52):
on me wow yeah, and then Icalled the same crisis line back
and you know, I asked for asupervisor and I'm like, hey, I
wasn't cussing at this girl, Iwas just cussing in general
because everything is you know.
So she stonewalled me.
(23:17):
She pretty much said that shehad the right to hang up on me
because of, you know, bullying,language or whatever, and she
just stonewalled me until I hungup.
So I was like no, you don'twork at a crisis line if you
can't stand some guessing.
What puritan nonsense is this?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
People in crisis are going to be crisising.
Right, they're going to saycrisis things.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
They are going to be crisis-ing, right.
They're going to say crisisthings.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
They are going to say crisis things.
That's an awful experience.
I'm sorry that you had to gothrough that because, also as a
suicide awareness advocate, andas someone who encourages people
to reach out for help.
I know how hard it can be toeven get to the point where you
(24:09):
pick up the phone to call andfor some people it takes years
to work up the courage to do itand to then get someone on the
line who can't hack it, who'sjust like nope, bye.
What a rejection and what asense of abandonment.
Um, so I'm sorry that you hadto go through that who you gonna
(24:32):
call, not them no, apparentlynot.
Um, wow.
Well, I would love to, at thispoint, move into your essay, um,
which I'm so proud to have onour site, and we have another
one up there, a more recentpiece, but this one, uh, was
(24:55):
written in, published in 2022and it is called the plight of
the one person mental healthsupport system and, whenever
you're ready, love to hear youread it.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
The expectation is still there that my mom can keep
talking to me about men whohave abused her in detail,
sometimes including herpedophile father and my drunken
one, like she did when I was apreteen and teen.
Those things haunt my sexuality, so I shut myself off to
hearing or feeling her pain orallowing her to share it with me
, because it all hurts and Iassociate her with sexual
(25:29):
assault and sexual victimization, which is an awkward feeling to
have about your mother.
According to her, when I wasreally young, I once saw her
raped by a security guard fromthe tech firm she worked at.
I don't remember thatspecifically, but I do remember
at that age seeing sexualviolent scenes in movies because
(25:51):
they were everywhere, like Clanof the Cave Bear, one of my
mom's favorite movies.
The only counter-influence Ifound that empowered women
instead of harming ordiminishing them, was Catwoman
from Batman, with her whip herclaws, her powerful moves and
absolutely no tolerance foraggression, domine, whip her
claws, her powerful moves andabsolutely no tolerance for
aggression, domineering orviolence from men.
I would only later come torealize and appreciate that my
(26:14):
mom was a cycle breaker, fleeingboth her family and the other
half of mine in order to keep meaway from the violence, so I
didn't grow up with the constantpresence of it.
So I didn't grow up with theconstant presence of it.
I think we need more cat women.
We don't have a choice, withthe country falling into the
(26:36):
hands of men who think that andlegislate so women can't make
their own choices and who makemedical calls for women when
they know nothing about femaleanatomy, medicine, pregnancy,
birth risks, birth control, etc.
I keep saying that, yet keephiding away, locked in my room
in the dark, typing like mad andsmelling myself the tang of my
feet and the crotch of my pajamapants because I stayed in bed
(27:00):
for a day.
I collapse inward when theworld becomes too much.
And yet I've written more thanever before, every day, timed.
This is a 30-minute timedwriting exercise in which I
won't allow myself to stop, nomatter what I write.
No time to pause and think,because that's a job for editing
.
Get it out.
Get it out the words that shoutbetween your ears and burn
(27:23):
holes of anxiety in your gut.
Words were the original magic,the true magic the privileged
men always tried to take awayfrom others.
Don't let someone read, speakand orate.
Then you don't let them, thinkand express the world around
them the injustice of theirexperiences.
I may have to run for office,but it haunts me.
If anything, I want to take allforms of power so I can destroy
(27:47):
them.
There might always be leadersand followers, but there's no
legitimate authority unlessconsented to.
It makes it difficult to seekhelp for my mental health when I
don't trust the sanity oftrained professionals.
After all, they probablybelieve in a number of mass
delusions money, authority,borders, nation states, the
(28:10):
veracity and validity of theirtraining, gods.
How can I ask a person likethat for help when anything I
say might be considered thesymptom of an illness or a
disability?
I've certainly tried, gotten afew diagnoses and a lot of
hemming and hawing about aboatload more for my troubles,
(28:31):
and I discovered that mosttherapy programs are built by
and for cognitively normativeindividuals who can do things
like get presentable, to bearound others every day and show
up to a thing on time everyweek or every other week and
remember appointments and things, people who don't lose days at
a time.
Is it too much to ask to havethe same walk-in hours that
(28:56):
aren't just for signing up, orhaving some walk-in hours that
aren't just for signing up.
It's freezing today.
The porch covered in a blanketof faded orange and brown leaves
, water in a discarded plasticcontainer has frozen at just the
first centimeter of surface.
The air bit at my fingertipswhen I went out there.
(29:19):
Even pads of my feet arealready cold.
When I went out with tennisshoes, but sockless, all five
chickens were clustered insidethe spare board house.
So I said goodnight and closedthe door, slipping the wooden
brace on top over it.
Sometimes I sing the sleepychicken song, but I was in haste
(29:41):
and it was already dark, sothere was no concert.
I was shocked.
I could step outside when PTSDusually chokes my bravery.
And it was already dark, sothere was no concert.
I was shocked.
I could step outside when PTSDusually chokes my bravery to
wander from the house at night,unless it's someplace brightly
lit or sparsely populated at anyhour.
Now it's time to shower.
No kidding, my God.
You smell like a zoo animal'svagina.
(30:03):
I don't want to know how you'dknow that I don't.
I was just calling you a zooanimal's vagina.
I don't want to know how you'dknow that I don't.
I was just calling you a zooanimal and pointing out the
smell wafting up from yourTinkerbell pajamas.
It wouldn't be so bad if itweren't a day old.
All right, this is getting mean.
How did we get here again?
(30:23):
I have no plans, but too toomany.
They swap my mind when I don'ttake my adhd meds.
Maybe I just have too manypeople inside, each from their
each with their own tastes,preferences, triggers and
ambitions for life.
Primarily, we want to write, butthere's also the actor and the
(30:44):
conqueror of man.
There's the queer one whobreezes through life and
different states without a plan.
There's the one that wants towork with corpses, ancient or
fresh.
There's the one that wantsnothing to do with anyone or any
mess.
How happy to see them.
Sometimes I am At least.
(31:04):
We all like to write every daythousands of words.
So that could be a plan.
We need to because there's noway for us to function without
it.
There's a difference betweensomeone who wants to write and
someone who needs to write.
Both can become good writers,but the one who needs to write,
they can't function without it.
My verbal communication breaksdown and the words become a
(31:27):
spiraling vortex turned into aknot of anxiety in my chest, my
gut, my heart that races when Ifirst wake up if I don't release
them all.
It's too much, but I need it.
We all do.
None of us are ourselveswithout reading and writing.
Without reading and writing, mymom paces around the kitchen
near my bedroom door, a blanket,and I sit in the dark in front
(31:50):
of my screen because I need to,but also to avoid her.
When you associate your momwith abuse and sexual abuse that
she experienced, everyinteraction can become squeamish
and uncomfortable.
I guess if she wanted me tospend time, she wouldn't have
spilled the encounters with herdad and my father to me before I
(32:11):
was 13 years old and on and offsince, or insisted on moving in
with me and my boyfriend, thefirst man I ever found, with
either no ego at all or notenough for me to destroy.
No, I don't know how I'm even alittle bit straight either.
(32:34):
It might help a little thathe's on the submissive side.
I hurt when my mother hurts, sosometimes I slam down the walls
in my empathy around her so Iwon't hurt.
But then she's all alone, veryfew friends, just my younger
brother, dustin, in his roomplaying games all the time Alone
in the smallest room in thetrailer with smoky air and a bed
(32:56):
filling most of it she sits andstares and shows on her
computer and makes a database totrack all the lottery numbers,
as if there was a way to predictrandom, which she believes
after 20 mostly unsuccessfulyears.
But who knows, maybe there is.
She used to help buildsatellites.
(33:18):
I sigh in the dark, hunched overmy knee, my feet are freezing
blocks of ice.
I should consider puttingexercise on the list and wearing
the fuzzy slippers.
Someone recently gave meLeopard print with red bows, so
hideous but useful.
Considering I'm wearing blackpajama bottoms with pictures of
Tinkerbell on it that my mombought me for Christmas, I don't
(33:40):
think I have much room tocomplain about ugly slippers.
To complain about ugly slippers, I don't care what people think
of my appearance, becausepeople dictating what is
appropriate for me to wear isjust another way to wrestle
control from women viamanipulation.
I'm a model slash dom slashwrestler who doesn't want to be
anymore.
I don't want to hear one moreword about what men want.
(34:04):
In all my fucking life.
They filled me to the brim withtheir desires, made me dress up
like they wanted for money Ineeded, filmed me making a fool
of myself Even if it wasn't nudeor porn, it was still me,
diminishing my intelligence andbetraying who I am so that they
could jerk off.
(34:24):
I still do it sometimes when Iget desperate for money, which
is all the time, because mysymptoms of illness and
incompatibility with peoplewhose worlds are upheld by mass
delusions are so extreme that Ican't go near people I work with
after a few weeks, and myindependent nature and demand
(34:44):
that no one, especially men,give me orders about where to be
, when, what to wear or how toact, will assert itself.
Even if I need the check orcash.
Writing is the only chance Ihave, or I might as well roll up
my life and smoke it like hash.
(35:04):
There's nothing for me but theword, not a religion, but a
magic practice of mixing andmatching, making sense of the
senseless and senseless storiesto appease me, not the masses.
No one need demand it from me,because it's the thing I do
without being told, the thingthat holds me to the world, just
because it's so damn fun to do.
If I return to the ooze or theatmosphere, how long would it be
(35:25):
before I grew fingers again?
I'm hungry, my stomach hurts.
My stomach burns with it.
I'm also too lazy to leave thekeyboard.
My ADHD meds usually help mewith that, but lately I've been
counting the hours I've had formyself and wanting nothing but
writing for them and realizingthrough my writing that I have
some serious problems to dealwith and or seriously need to
(35:48):
escape my situation.
Problems to deal with and or aseriously need to escape my
situation it's a familytradition to run away.
My parents, my mom and stepdad,ran from Philadelphia to
Arizona, to Alabama, to Georgia,to Florida, back to Georgia
again, and never managed toescape themselves, at least not
until my stepdad died of brainand lung cancer a few months ago
.
At the same time I've tried toroot in one place on the front
(36:13):
lines of misogyny in the UnitedStates, and coming back to
Georgia and coming back againand again has just felt like an
inability to leave a badrelationship.
To be honest, I wish I knew theway from here.
I wish the many memories I haveof trying to find help in the
world of the blind had beenfilled with kindness.
The beginning was, I think, mrsEstes and Mrs Green, who pulled
(36:36):
me aside in a school inTuscaloosa, alabama, and got me
to talk, which led me down along winding web of trying to
find more help and encounteringmisunderstandings common of the
disabled.
Help and encounteringmisunderstandings common of the
disabled and misunderstandingsof reality.
We all run into our own cyclesand beliefs in which we cling so
(36:58):
many unnecessary boundariesthrough policies that make
getting help and staying in aprogram so difficult, such a
need for personal boundaries athome in ways that go beyond just
running as fast as I can.
That was seven years ago.
That was the beginning.
You need to see the problembefore you come up with a plan.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Thank you so much for reading that.
It's wonderful to hear it inyour own voice.
It's wonderful to hear it inyour own voice.
(37:57):
It's such a powerful, strongpiece and there's so, so much in
there.
It's fascinating how muchyou're able to 2022, and now we
are in 2025.
And one of the things that isquite different just not on a
personal level, but on anational level is politics.
And, um, you know, a lot ofpeople say, oh, don't, don't get
political and don't mix.
But I think that's suchbullshit.
(38:21):
You can't divorce something asas huge from mental health or
women's rights or LGBTQIA issues, and there's just this full-on
assault against everything andeveryone who isn't a white,
(38:42):
straight, christian male, and Ijust want to hear from you about
how you're coping with what'sgoing on.
I don't even want to say hisname, but you know what I'm
talking about.
What has this been like for you,and how are you keeping
(39:02):
yourself together?
Speaker 2 (39:06):
I am definitely.
Do you mind if I move this forbetter light?
Because I've, I don't mind atall.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Do whatever you need to do.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So I wouldn't exactly call it coping.
That was.
You know, the reelection waspossibly one of the worst nights
of my life, but so copinghasn't really been a thing.
I've been trying to find places, pockets in the world that are
(39:38):
a little better.
Uh, you know, whether it'sPennsylvania or New York.
You know I'm trying to to findhow bad Georgia got.
Okay, let me backtrack a little.
I actually wrote the essaycloser to, probably, 2016.
(40:00):
Then I finally got it out intothe world in 2022.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Things had been bad even way back.
Then it had been a few way backthen.
Yep, it might have, becausethat was Trump 1.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
It had been a few years.
Yes, yes, it was.
Yeah, it had been a processgetting it out into the world.
But yeah, mental health iscompletely political, because
what is going on in your worldis pretty much the first step to
(40:31):
figuring it out.
I mean, there is what's goingon within yourself, but there's
also what's going on in yourworld and it's always, you know,
a balancing act.
You can't balance with fascism,like there's no balance there.
There is no balance therewhatsoever.
Um, especially especially whenyou have neurodivergent people,
(40:59):
we have, you know, uh, the, the,what is it the?
Uh, pattern recognition.
You know, like, the patternrecognition qualities.
So you know what's going tohappen, years before it actually
starts happening.
And you're telling everyone,hey, this is bad, this is really
(41:21):
bad.
And they're like nah, nah, it'sfine, we, we can't live there,
it's like, but you do, you dolive there.
That's exactly the planet youlive on.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
See, see, this one it's still, it's a journey it's
a journey and and I I tellmyself that it's it's a pendulum
(41:57):
and that it's swinging this wayand that there is going to be a
revolt against it and it'sgoing to swing back and there
will be some amount ofnormalization.
I think so much damage is isnot going to be able to be
undone, but some can.
Um, and I just tell myself, wejust have to hold on and get
through this, um, and and wealso have to do the swinging
(42:21):
yeah that's what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
It's a lot to think about because, but at the same
time, I choose hope over fear,and that's all it comes down to
is like what can I do today?
I choose hope over fear.
I have to take care of myself,I have to create something and I
have to maybe do something forsomeone else, and those are kind
(42:45):
of my three, you know, majorgoals in the day, because I need
to take care of me, I need tocreate something and I need to
help someone.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Well, and you know what You're doing.
All three of those when you'rewriting, and the two essays that
you have on OC87 recoverydiaries, are helping yourself.
They are creating and they arehelping other people, and
they're helping other people whoyou don't even know, um,
(43:21):
because these essays are gettingclicked on and they are getting
read by people all over theworld.
Um, some of these people arestruggling with things that you
are living with, with DID or OCDor ADHD trauma.
Some of them are people who aresupporting people who are
living with these mental healthconditions, and they need help
(43:43):
too and they need hope too.
I think that's something thatwe sometimes forget about, like
caregivers, whether they'reclinicians or people living
loved ones, spouses, partners,children of people living with
these mental health challenges.
They need to know that there ishope, that things can get
(44:07):
better, that these mental healthchallenges are not death
sentences, um, and so you,through your creativity and
through your bravery of beingpublic and putting things out
there, um, you're making art andcreativity that's helping
(44:27):
others.
So I just want you to know that.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Thank you, and I really appreciate you providing
a platform for stories like this, because if you can imagine
people going to mental healthhotlines and getting hung up on,
how often do you think thathappens with publishers?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
it's like thank you, but no, that's a bit much well,
we don't hang up on anybody here, um, and everybody's welcome
here, as, as you know, and these, these stories are for everyone
and we want people to know thatthese are real human beings
(45:13):
writing these essays.
This is why we have people usetheir names.
This is why we have people giveus their real photographs.
Um, you know, we don't use likestock images.
We want people to know theseare real human beings, because
there's real human beingsreading this.
So we want that connection andit's such a joy to know that
(45:35):
you're part of this community.
I'm really grateful for you.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Thank you.
I'm really grateful for thecommunity.
So thank you for building one.
It's a good one.
I like it.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
It's a pleasure and a privilege, and I so enjoyed
spending time with you today.
Thank you so so much for beinghere with us.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Thank you for having me.
It's a great honor.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Thank you, elizabeth.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest today, elizabeth Ann
Devine, a non-binary author,diarist and poet.
They live with ADHD, ptsd, ocdand DID dissociative identity
(46:26):
disorder.
You can read Elizabeth'swriting on their website,
eadivinecom, and two of theiressays on our site.
I'm David S videos and contentabout mental health, empowerment
(46:48):
and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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