April 7, 2025 • 47 mins
Hannah R. Goodman is busy: she has a Substack, she’s a writer and novelist, she is a therapist, she’s a spouse and a mother. She has a lot going on in her life; and a lot going on in her head, too—as she’s very open about—particularly “pure O” and generalized anxiety disorder. There’s so much going on that it was surprising that she found time to spend an hour with us to sit down and talk, but she did! And we’re grateful for it.
Hannah has long been a friend of Recovery Diaries; she’s published two essays with us, The Big Scare: My Anxiety Disorder Story and When Thoughts are Sticky; Pure OCD and Generalized Anxiety Disorder (she reads this one aloud on our podcast, and knocks it out of the park). Hannah has a remarkable facility not only with words, but with human emotion, and she opens herself up in a vulnerable and moving way with our host, Gabe Nathan, as they share their experiences with anxiety and obsessive thoughts, and about expressing themselves creatively through writing.
Hannah reveals that she is in an “interesting place” regarding her writing and, during the interview, she breaks down what she means. She also speaks about losing her father, one of her strongest supporters and someone who helped her understand and navigate her anxiety, even though he had little formal knowledge about or training in mental health.
Come be warmed and helped through this compassionate conversation between two people who admire and respect each other, exploring issues and facets of mental health that aren’t commonly discussed on platforms like this. Like, share, and, of course, subscribe!
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere today on Recovery Diaries
In-Depth.
We are delighted to have HannahR Goodman as our guest.
She's a writer, teacher and amental health counselor in Rhode
Island.
She has two essays on our siteand she's gonna be talking about
(00:23):
the one that deals with stickythoughts.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:46):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
(01:07):
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Grow and, of course, make sureto like, share and subscribe.
(01:29):
Hannah Goodman, welcome toRecovery Diaries in Depth.
It's so lovely to have you here.
Thanks for joining us.
Hannah Goodman (01:35):
Thank you for having me.
Gabe Nathan (01:37):
It is a pleasure.
So you are a mental healthcounselor.
You are someone who lives withmultiple mental health diagnoses
.
You came to us a number ofyears ago by now with your first
essay, so I just want to askyou how are you today?
Hannah Goodman (02:04):
That's the right question to ask, right?
Yeah, First of all, thank youfor asking.
You're welcome.
I'm good.
I am probably.
As far as my mental health goes, I'm probably in the best place
I've been since the breakdown Ireferenced in my first essay,
which was in 2014,.
(02:24):
Despite having lots of physicalhealth issues, loss of my
father and some other things goon, surprisingly, I'm sorry to
hear about that.
Gabe Nathan (02:44):
And when I was preparing for this interview
today, I was looking at youressay.
You have two on our site, but Iwas looking at the one where
you referenced him specificallyand there's that lovely picture
of the two of you together andit's so sweet, effortlessly
reassures you when you're havingthese intrusive thoughts and
(03:05):
you're talking about it's justyour anxiety and I was thinking
about my parents' relationshipto mental health.
It's very different than that.
So you were very lucky to havethat guy in your life.
I was Giving you that gift.
Hannah Goodman (03:28):
He was a huge influence on just talking about
my anxiety because he sufferedfrom these panic attacks and we
used to sit on my porch as anadult and talk and one of our
last porch talks he shared withme I think I had forgotten about
this that he wanted to be apsychiatrist, he wanted to work
(03:49):
in mental health.
He never did.
He was a mad scientist, aresearch physicist, but he was
very proud of me, that I becamea therapist and that I was also
able to write about my anxietyand talk about my anxiety.
And, um, yeah, he was.
You know, he was.
Fathers are complicated,parents are complicated.
Gabe Nathan (04:11):
Amen.
Hannah Goodman (04:12):
But especially for the time period.
Uh, he comes from I, I thoughtit was.
I thought it was great that he,from the beginning, the very
first panic attack, he said youknow, and to my mom's credit too
, she said you know, your fatherhas these.
So of course they didn't knowwhat to do back then.
They just threw in a Xanax, nota Xanax.
What was it back then?
Gabe Nathan (04:32):
Whatever the big drug was, you said you got a
script for Valium as a kid,right.
Hannah Goodman (04:40):
One pill and I said you know what, even though
I was like 17, I was like youknow what.
Gabe Nathan (04:43):
I don't think this is the right one for me, and
that's great, because anothertype of person might have taken
one pill and been like God damn,this is the thing for me.
Hannah Goodman (04:53):
So it's good that you didn't go that way,
that's great One of the thingsabout people with anxiety
disorders that I have found as aclinician and as a human with
an anxiety disorder we're tooneurotic half the time to really
abuse honestly in my case andthen also in the case of a lot
of my clients the level ofneurosis.
Gabe Nathan (05:16):
To get someone to take a medication, even with an
anxiety disorder, can be hard,so I'll speak to that myself.
I started going to counselingin college at the college
counseling center and I wasreferred almost immediately to a
psychiatrist to be put onmedication.
And I was that bad and I saidabsolutely not.
I'm so scared.
And also, as a college student,I never drank and I mean never,
(05:41):
and at a big drinking schoolbut I was absolutely terrified
of what a drink would do to meand what a lowering of my
inhibitions would be like and ifI wasn't in full control of
everything that I said or did.
(06:02):
And to this day I don't drink.
And it's what you say aboutpeople with anxiety disorders
and resistance to addiction oreven anything that could
potentially, no matter how farfetched the scenario, go down
that road.
That rings very true to me.
Go down that road.
(06:22):
That rings very true to me.
Hannah Goodman (06:25):
It's so true that I actually similar to you.
I was in college and neverdrank.
I had some bad experiences withalcohol before I realized I had
a panic disorder and it allmade sense after, but in college
I never drank.
In my 20s and my 30s I'mturning 50 this year and I
started having wine about fiveyears ago and my psychiatrist
(06:47):
said to me this is a bigbreakthrough for you.
Normally I don't encouragedrinking.
You know what I'm talking about, right?
Gabe Nathan (06:54):
My therapist has recommended.
You know, gabe, like maybe adrink or two every now and then
might not be the worst thing foryou and I'm like what the
hell's wrong with you?
But it's, yeah, I get it.
Hannah Goodman (07:05):
She's a good.
She's a good therapist, becauseit was really wonderful for me
to learn that I was able to havethe altered state and and and
be, and not only be okay, butactually enjoy it, you know.
Gabe Nathan (07:20):
Right Not do anything criminal you know, lose
your mind or debase yourself inpublic?
Hannah Goodman (07:27):
no well, maybe a little debasing, but not in
public.
I like to drink in my housewith my family that's good, but
it's exposure therapy.
It really was and everything Imean quite honestly, every day
is exposure therapy.
So right, you know, but thatwas a big one and it is a big
one.
I.
I have a couple clients that uh, won't drink and I share my
story and I say just a sip, Iwant you to do a sip and just
(07:48):
sort of experience what that'slike and which is funny, right,
like that's not normally whatyou hear, but we are special, we
are special breed.
Gabe Nathan (07:59):
That's for sure.
My therapist has also tried toconvince me to be late to things
, which is another thing thatI'm, you know I used to show up.
This interview is not about me,but we do share a lot.
You know, when I used to workat a psychiatric hospital, haha,
I would show up like two hoursearly for my shift and just sit
(08:23):
in the parking lot like twohours early for my shift and
just sit in the parking lot andI even got like I would get
yelled at for clocking in early,like you can't clock in this
early.
If you're going to show up, youhave to stay in the parking lot
.
It was very aberrant behaviorthat at a psychiatric hospital
maybe should have been treateddifferently for a staff member.
but no, but I would show upreally early to these therapy
(08:45):
appointments and my therapistwas like you know, you really
need to dial it back, Like itwould be really great if you
could show up like 10 minutesearly or even be 10 minutes late
.
You know, I think that would bereally healthy for you to
experience.
That, you know.
And what is the fear, of course.
And what is the fear of course?
That a persona that I havebuilt up of being reliable,
(09:07):
dependable, will somehow beeroded and that people will have
a negative perception of me,because late is not nice, it's
disrespectful to be late, but Iwas never actually going to be
late.
Hannah Goodman (09:22):
But even if you were, I would argue that late
doesn't always equaldisrespectful.
Late equals a lot of differentthings.
Gabe Nathan (09:29):
It's just sometimes shit happens and that's when we
have to be human.
Hannah Goodman (09:37):
And we have to be okay that we're not perfect
and that's a big problem forthose of us with anxiety
disorders.
A big part of my exposuretherapy back when I had my
breakdown in 2014 with thistherapist who he was kind of
mean, but he was good and hereally pushed me to do all those
things I had gone for 10 yearswithout real symptoms and then,
bam, over 10 years and then Ijust fell apart and I wouldn't
(10:01):
leave the house.
I had children, I had a life, Ihad a business and I had to
quickly get back and it wasexposure therapy, which I think
is you can't just do exposuretherapy.
I just also want to say we arecomplicated, multi-layered
people, but a big part of thecrisis aspect of panic and
anxiety disorders and OC, allthe things is to do some
(10:22):
exposure.
So I, like you, have a goodtherapist.
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (10:26):
He's.
I mean, I've been seeing himsince 2010.
So we're we're pretty tight, um, and you know, I obviously
wouldn't be sticking around if I.
I if I questioned that he?
No, he knows, he knows what'sup.
Um question for you aboutwriting.
Do you view writing about yourmental health as a form of
(10:49):
exposure?
Exposure?
Hannah Goodman (10:51):
to therapy.
Yes, when I wrote both of thosepieces that are on your site, I
was, I think, the first one.
I was 2017.
So I was finishing school thatyear to be a therapist it was my
third career and had come outto close friends at my place of
(11:15):
work, which at that point hadbecome this large therapy
practice, and even to mypatients, and exhilarating and
healing on both ends.
You know, there's somethingvery bonding about that and the
trust.
You know, someone coming in andbeing like what does she know?
And then I go honey, let metell you what I know.
So what scared me about doingthis and what I felt compelled
(11:40):
to do was that now I was reallycoming out.
It's one thing.
To come out one at a time, it'sanother thing.
I also had no idea Maybe nobodywould read this.
Come to find out a lot ofpeople right.
We try to make sure.
Job done, great job, and it wasmy therapist at the time that
(12:01):
said just do it Again.
What's the worst that willhappen?
Oh, you won't be perceived asperfect.
What is perfect, all thosethings.
So, yes, writing about mentalhealth is exposure.
I continue to write aboutmental health on.
I have a sub stack.
Now that's a lot more casual.
I'm a psychotherapist by day,but I'm actually a romance
(12:23):
novelist by night.
That's a whole other story.
I just had a book come out, aromance book come out in January
.
That's exposure therapy,because that's a whole side of
me that is really up forridicule, right.
I'm putting myself on thechopping block and I have a
practice and I have my patients,know, my, my patients and stuff
(12:44):
.
Oh my God, what's that going todo?
Gabe Nathan (12:46):
You publish under your real name.
Hannah Goodman (12:48):
I do, but I add the R.
You'll love this instead ofjust Hannah Goodman.
Oh, I think I did it for thistoo.
My writing persona is Hannah RGoodman.
I don't know, I couldn't.
I'm you know what?
I can't keep track of a penname and I just yeah.
I just so I know also it's anact of I'm constantly putting
myself in situations that I'mincredibly uncomfortable and
(13:13):
finding that it peaks.
It does the same thing everytime that my original therapist
told me.
He said your anxiety is goingto peak and it's going to fall
down.
And it happens every time.
Gabe Nathan (13:26):
Yeah, what is that ride like?
Is it different, like than itwas earlier?
Hannah Goodman (13:32):
yes, there's a liberty in getting to be very
close to 50 as I, each year ofmy 40s it became more and more
and probably watching uh healthissues go on.
My father's cancer, like I justreal, and he was always like
can I swear on here or is thatnot allowed?
Gabe Nathan (13:50):
Oh God Fuck.
Yes, oh yes.
Hannah Goodman (13:53):
My dad was like fuck everything, go for it, be
yourself.
And my dad was definitelyhimself.
He had no problem and so, yeah,I think that the ride is better
now.
I'm having some trouble withthis book that just came out,
because my practice is nowthriving and it's big for a solo
(14:17):
practitioner and my therapistgave me an exposure assignment.
A couple weeks ago.
I had a signing coming up inthe town where I work and she
said I want you to put a sign upin your office and I was like,
oh God, are you sure?
She said I am sure and I did.
And I had a patient come in whohas been with me since the
first day of my practice.
(14:37):
He looked at me and he sayslooks behind me, goes.
So do you write for the money?
He's a funny guy.
Do you write for the money?
Gabe Nathan (14:46):
So no, I'm a therapist for the money.
Hannah Goodman (14:51):
Yeah, right, I go.
Uh, no, it was just reallyfunny.
And then he asked me just acouple questions and I'm a very,
you know, transparent person.
I said, yeah, I write romancenovels.
And he was like, oh okay, andthen we moved on.
See, and that was important tohave that happen, because, look,
I live in Rhode Island, yourealize, like everybody knows
everybody, small state Yep.
Someone's going to find out andso far nothing terrible has
(15:14):
happened.
Gabe Nathan (15:16):
Yeah and it won't.
But of course there's thatnagging voice of anxiety what if
, what if, what if?
And there's a part I can'tremember which essay of yours it
is Okay when I think it's aboutthe knife right here it is,
(15:36):
it's right here, yeah the knife.
So I was standing there in mykitchen I know you're supposed
to be reading this.
No, you read the blade of theknife gleaming and scaring the
shit out of me because of thethoughts I had.
What if I lose control and stabmyself in the stomach?
What if blood goes everywhere?
What if I can't stop and I justgo crazy?
And again, as someone who alsolives with generalized anxiety
(16:03):
disorder, those two words whatif?
Words, what if?
Just ring in my head constantly, and it's a constant companion.
It's a constant critical voiceand what I've learned about that
voice is it's like theguardrail on the side of the
(16:26):
highway as you're driving up amountain it wants to keep you
safe.
Hannah Goodman (16:31):
That's all it does.
Yes.
Gabe Nathan (16:33):
And so I've learned , I've tried to learn about it
as less of an antagonist, whichis, I think, in my twenties
that's how I viewed it.
It was this enemy that justkept coming at me that I had to
keep fighting back, and now Ikind of understand it and I have
empathy for it.
For those two words.
Hannah Goodman (16:53):
Yeah, and I have empathy for it, for those two
words.
All your brain wants to do iskeep you alive.
And if the back of your braintakes over and the executive
function skills, kind of like,go offline, it's going to do a
misfire, but it thinks it'strying to help you.
It's all about us saying, okay,oh, I get it All right.
Thank you, brain.
I say this all the time tomyself and I tell my clients,
when that starts, two things oh,that's my anxiety.
(17:16):
And then thank you.
Gabe Nathan (17:21):
Yeah, Because my anxiety loves me really.
Hannah Goodman (17:23):
Yeah, it does A lot, it loves you a lot, and
when we, I think I talk about inthat essay, where if you
struggle with it and you startarguing with it now, you're
causing the secondary pain, andthat can be, and to me, I think
when I work with patients, I seethat's actually what
(17:44):
perpetuates us, starts to formproblems like agoraphobia or,
like you know, just not beingable to do things.
Gabe Nathan (17:53):
Yeah.
Hannah Goodman (17:53):
You know, you.
Gabe Nathan (17:57):
You mentioned to me right before we started the
interview that you're in a Ithink you said a quote weird
place with your writing umrelated to mental health.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, cause it's such an
important part of your life andyou have the sub stack and the
romance novels.
So what's the weird place?
Hannah Goodman (18:17):
Okay, so here's where my panic comes in.
But we're doing exposuretherapy, so we're going to go
for it.
Let's have it happen right here.
My breakdown in 2014,.
And I don't remember.
I did reread the essay and then, you know, as an anxious person
, I forgot everything I read.
I don't know how much time Ispent, but the kickoff for it
was breaking up with my agent atthe time and realizing that my
(18:40):
dream of being the next JudyBlume that I'd worked for since,
you know, I was gosh 15,realizing the truth of the
publishing world and all of thedisappointment and all the
things that went wrong in thatrelationship with her, which was
five years, it really took atoll on me.
(19:01):
It felt like the end of theworld, which, when I tell people
this, I'm like man.
I don't know if I can conveythe impact of having a dream and
actually working on it andbeing this close for at that
point, like almost 20 years andthen gone, and I just had to re.
(19:24):
I was in the process of.
I had a tutoring business Beforethat.
I was a high school Englishteacher, had kids, wanted to be
home, had a tutoring business,got my MFA, got agents, got
awards, got this, got that.
The ball was rolling and thenbam, this last agent.
I had just failed me miserably.
(19:44):
I feel comfortable saying I'vewritten about it.
So that happened and theembarrassment, the failure, the
lack of perfection, having toface everyone in my family that
I had failed.
I did face students, I taughtwriting workshops, I taught
(20:06):
writing workshops and publishingat this point and I had to talk
about exposure therapy.
I had to tell everyone about myfailure and it ripped me apart.
It ripped me apart.
It was really bad, really bad.
So now that's the bad part.
Fast forward, go to a greattherapist.
(20:26):
Fast forward, go to a greattherapist.
Get my life together.
Refocus my life so that myself-worth is no longer tied to
whether or not I'm the next JudyBlume.
Work really hard at becoming atherapist.
Fall in love with that Write.
Basically, by the way, theessay, the first one that you
(20:47):
published, was I don't even knowif I ever say I don't think I
say this my therapist said Iwant you to write something and
submit it somewhere and expect Iwant you to try to fail.
Gabe Nathan (21:00):
Oh damn, I should have rejected it, sorry.
Hannah Goodman (21:05):
No, but a beautiful thing happened.
It was okay either way.
So when I did make it, it waslike oh, but my whole self-worth
isn't defined by this.
This is the cherry on top.
This is my art.
This is not all of me.
This isn't defining me.
So I worked through all of thatand things started to happen as
(21:26):
they do when you stop holdingsomething with a chokehold.
So I had my essay publishedwith you and then several other
online mental healthpublications.
Then I got a book contract onmy own, without an agent, in
2018.
Then I got another bookcontract in 2023, but my dad
(21:49):
passed away just as I got thatcontract, and I did not have the
energy, nor the will, nor thedesire, because what it takes to
be an unfamous author and Iwrote all about this on my sub
stack, if anybody wants to, andit's about mental health too
what it takes to be an unfamousauthor is you really got to
swallow any ego you have to bean unfamous author?
(22:13):
Is you really got to swallowany ego you have?
And I knew that.
I knew that I was at risk oftying my self-worth to whether
or not this book was going to dowell or not, and I had to be
careful.
My dad had just died, so I'm ina weird place because my dad
passed away in 2023.
Publishing is a long process,so the book didn't come out
until 2025, january and, truthbe told, it's hard.
(22:36):
It's hard to.
I just had a book signing wherethey did not do a nice job of
making me feel welcomed.
I wrote about that, too, on mysub stack.
So my mental health my husbandactually said to me today the
only thing he's worried aboutwith this book is that is how am
(22:56):
I really or am I able toseparate my self-worth from how
I'm going to be received and howmy book's going to be received?
Because if you're not famousand you write a fiction novel,
you're pounding pavement.
Gabe Nathan (23:14):
Yeah.
Hannah Goodman (23:14):
You know so.
Gabe Nathan (23:16):
Well, how are you really?
Hannah Goodman (23:21):
Not great with the publishing stuff.
I'll be honest with you.
At least now I'm able to sayI'm great here and I'm great
here Like I'm able to, kind of.
But the publishing this has notbeen easy.
This recent book signing washumiliating, you know, a lot of
things were said and promisedand then I get there and nothing
(23:41):
Like shoved in a corner, no, itjust was bad.
And I feel I wrote this wholething on Substack that I felt
like guilty for feeling.
You know, you know this right,I did something wrong.
Gabe Nathan (23:56):
Yeah, of course.
Hannah Goodman (23:57):
You know what that is?
That's our generalized anxiety,that's our OCD, and it was
flaring loud.
So I did the only thing I knowhow to do besides take my meds,
get exercise and go to therapy.
Just write about it, I wroteabout it, I wrote about it and I
have more to say.
I wrote it and I sent it to mygood friends and they're like.
(24:19):
I think you have more to say.
But I'm also afraid what'sgoing to happen if that
bookstore, which is my favoritebookstore, or it used to be
bookstore, which is my favoritebookstore, or it used to be, but
I have to, I have, I shouldn'tbe swallowing, you know, that's
another thing we do, those of uswith anxieties, we just put up
(24:39):
with a lot of shit and we letourselves get treated like this
was not good.
Gabe Nathan (24:47):
Yeah, and if one of the things that's lovely about
getting you know closer to 50 orwhatever age it is for other
people is that I'm kind of donebeing the world's doormat, yeah,
um then I agree I don't know.
Lean into that, because what ifthe owner of blah blah,
(25:08):
half-priced books or whatever itis, gets pissed off at you?
Okay, yeah.
Hannah Goodman (25:13):
That's okay, and I say this a lot when people
are anxious in my office and Igo is your side of the street
clean and mine is?
I did not do anything otherthan do what I was supposed to
do.
Right, and if there's going tobe blame and we're going to
point fingers, it's definitelynot at me.
(25:35):
When you invite someone to be aguest in your bookstore, there
are I've done this for 20 years.
There are things booksellersand event planners do.
None of those things occurred.
In fact, it was againhumiliating.
And thank God, my husband, oneof my daughters, two of my, you
(25:58):
know, my best friend, one of myreally good friends, everyone's
there for me to support me, andthat's if you're attempting to
do this.
You have to have support,people who love you, and thank
God for them.
But they were all looking after.
They were like, oh my God, isshe okay?
Sure, yeah, and I'm okay.
I'm like I'm fine, I'm nothaving a panic attack, I'm not
(26:19):
like ripping myself apart,self-esteem wise, or like I have
a lot of self-compassion formyself.
But I am so sad anddisappointed because this book
this is the one that my agentand I broke up over, because she
did such a shit again, a shitjob of doing what she was
(26:40):
supposed to do, and so I'm sadabout that, I'm sad that we're
off to the start and it's justreally disappointing, and I have
to face that face it andexpress yourself about it and
work through it.
Gabe Nathan (26:58):
Work through it Because it's also bringing up
all that stuff about therelationship with the agent.
So that's all still there andthat's hard.
Hannah Goodman (27:07):
Yeah, and feeling humiliated is such a
weird feeling, because if youdissect humiliation, it's like
well, but it's not your fault,and yet you know what.
You know what really sucks isis and I think a lot of us with
anxiety disorders wind upfeeling this way, like but I
didn't do anything wrong and I'mthe one carrying around false
guilt, like right, which I usedto call myself when I was trying
(27:32):
to get better.
Like way back when I had my, mybreakdown, I used to call
myself an anxiety warrior, likeI was trying to talk myself up,
you know, because that's what Ifeel like in these moments, like
I'm an anxious person, so I'mautomatically going to assume
responsibility, even forwhatever.
But then that stronger part ofme, that warrior, has to be like
no, protect yourself, youdidn't do anything wrong, you
(27:58):
know.
So how am I doing?
It's hard, I don't know yeah,and that's okay.
Gabe Nathan (28:05):
That's okay and it's much better than like
diluting or putting on an act ora mask, which is what you know
a lot of us do to get throughjust the everyday and also the
really hard stuff.
But let's move on to a lovelierpart of writing and
(28:27):
self-expression and let's getinto one of the two essays of
yours that are on our site, andthis one is called when Thoughts
Are Sticky, pure OCD andGeneralized Anxiety Disorder, by
Hannah R Goodman.
Hannah Goodman (28:47):
Though I'm in recovery from generalized
anxiety disorder, that doesn'tmean I am cured.
Gad can be chronic, withperiods of remission and mini
flare-ups.
One of the symptoms I strugglewith during these mini flare-ups
is intrusive thoughts.
These thoughts are notnecessarily pathological or an
indication of a mental illness.
(29:08):
If you are human, you have hadan intrusive thought at some
point in your life.
Make that probably some pointin your day.
Intrusive thoughts arebasically anxious, scary
thoughts that float into yourbrain, sometimes for no specific
reason.
The majority of the time thosethoughts float in and float out
(29:28):
and you can move on with yourday.
For me, sometimes I go for longstretches where these types of
thoughts don't really stick tome.
An anxious thought floats in, Itake note of it and then I can
watch it float by.
Other times, when I'm having amini flare-up of anxiety,
anxious, scary thoughts stompinto my brain, have a fit, and
(29:49):
they don't leave In this state.
My thoughts do this OCD type ofthing that I call sticky
thinking.
My thoughts do this OCD type ofthing that I call sticky
thinking.
This is sometimes referred toas pure OCD.
With this type of thinking, youfeel like you are grabbing onto
each and every disturbing orpainful thought and then
rustling it into the ground inthe hopes that you will make it
(30:10):
go away.
Earlier this year, I foundmyself in a desperate wrestling
match with some very stickythinking.
Earlier this year, I foundmyself in a desperate wrestling
match with some very stickythinking.
I was going through some of myout-of-control work-related
stress and noticed that mythinking was becoming more and
more sticky with each passingday, to the point where every
time I would walk into thekitchen I would think there are
(30:31):
knives in here.
What if I lose control and stabmyself?
Or if I managed to make it allthe way to the kitchen and
actually pick up one to use tocut up fruit for my daughter or
carrots for dinnertime?
I would immediately worry thatif I didn't cut everything up
quickly, I might lose controland stab myself.
One morning during this time Iwas running around getting my
(30:51):
youngest ready for school whilealso trying to pack my own lunch
to take to work.
When just the sight of akitchen knife laying on the
countertop triggered me, I beganto worry and obsess that I
might grab the knife and totallylose control and stab myself.
And then my children would seethis and I would forever scar
them, because this was not myfirst time in a mini OCD
(31:14):
flare-up.
It was a part of me that knew Iwas having these thoughts, not
because I actually want to stabmyself, but because I'm afraid
that somehow and here is wherethe irrational brain does its
thing I will lose control, blinkout like a computer on overload
and possibly act on the scarythought.
It's the obsessive andcompulsive process of if I think
it, then I won't do it becauseI will scare myself enough.
(31:37):
If I think it, then I won't doit because I will scare myself
enough.
So there I was, standing in mykitchen, the blade of the knife
gleaming and scaring the shitout of me because of the
thoughts I had.
What if I lose control and stabmyself in the stomach?
What if blood goes everywhere?
What if I can't stop and I justgo crazy?
Though this only lasted a fewminutes, those moments were
treacherous and a lot went on.
In those moments my mind wentright to but I don't want to
(31:59):
hurt myself.
What if I can't stop myself?
Oh no, why am I having thisthought?
Then?
Great, you're going crazy.
See, you can't be a therapist.
You're sicker than any clientyou may ever help.
But, unlike what might'vehappened years ago, I caught
myself.
I became mindful of what washappening and, instead of
(32:19):
wrestling with the thought ortrying to stomp on it and make
it go away, I took a breath, andthen another, focusing on the
in and the out sensation, and inthis act, I began to allow for
some space between me and thesescary thoughts.
In this space, I was able toremember what a therapist once
advised for these moments Tellyourself okay, that thought
scares me.
(32:39):
Of course it does, that's fine,let it be, do nothing, just
breathe.
This type of self-talk is whathelps me get through a mini
flare-up.
I'm not turning away from oravoiding my thoughts.
Instead, I acknowledge them andthen I focus on the breath,
which brings me into the moment.
The way I spoke to myself whenI first saw the knife was all
(33:00):
future-oriented, what-ifthinking, the type of thinking
that can really amp up myanxiety.
However, I caught myself andthen basically challenged these
thoughts with soothing, rational, in-the-moment self-talk.
When I did this, I felt myanxiety lower.
I continued to make my lunchand then move on to the rest of
the morning.
(33:21):
I remember the first time I hadscary knife thoughts.
As I referred to them.
I was in my late teens and onvacation with my recently
divorced dad.
On that first night after a dayof cross-country skiing, as I
waited in the lobby for my dadto go to dinner, an image of the
blade of a knife came to mymind.
I wasn't hallucinating, it wasa.
An image of the blade of aknife came to my mind.
I wasn't hallucinating, it wasa clear image of a knife and the
sharp tip of it in my mind'seye.
It caused me to cringe a little, almost as if thinking about it
(33:43):
would cause it to physicallyhurt me.
I tried to push it away, but itkept turning.
Finally, over dinner, Iconfessed to my father and he
simply said that's your anxiety,don't worry about it.
Though my dad wasn't a mentalhealth provider, he was no
stranger to the weirdness ofanxiety symptoms and since he
had them himself, he normalizedthis experience for me.
(34:05):
On and off over the next decade,these thoughts would come in
and stick and I would think ofmy dad, what my dad told me, and
somehow I was able to move on.
But here I was at that kitchencounter, a full grown adult with
the responsibility and stressof small children, work and
marriage, having those sameknife thoughts.
This time they weren't fleeting, they were constant, triggered
by anything from watchingMasterChef to walking by a knife
(34:26):
that lay on the counter in thekitchen.
I was in therapy at the timefor a tune-up for my anxiety.
I told my therapist to explainwhat pure OCD is.
Knowing that this had aspecific name helped and knowing
that it was, as my father hadindicated years before, another
symptom of anxiety, I could putit in perspective.
It didn't make learning to copewith these thoughts easy, but
(34:47):
it definitely made it possible.
My thinking during these timescan not only be scary but also
make me feel like I'm a bad orevil person for having such
thoughts.
But then I remind myself that athought is just a thought, not
a behavior.
The very fact that these scarythoughts cause anxiety means
that I don't want to act onthose thoughts.
And, at the same time, athought only has the power that
(35:09):
you give it.
I take the power of irrational,scary thoughts through soothing
self-talk and breathing intothe present moment.
In the past, I would work veryhard to push away, deny, avoid
or repress all scary thoughts,yelling at myself, hiding knives
and avoiding using anythingsharp, even a pair of scissors.
(35:29):
All that did was increase thepower of the thoughts, and then
I actually made my anxiety worsebecause I created more
suffering, which is now asecondary pain to the first.
Secondary suffering occurs inan effort to avoid the emotional
pain, you shove it awayforcibly, and in the act of
shoving you actually become moreupset.
The best way to explain this isfrom a video by Birch that I
(35:53):
watched when I took the PaylooseMindfulness course, which shows
an example of how secondarypain works.
Basically, it's the originalpain.
It's like the original pain isa blue cushion on your lap and
the secondary pain is pilingmore and more cushions on top of
the original blue one.
It's like when you feel thatfirst rush of panic.
That is painful, but it's thepiling on of what ifs and coulds
(36:16):
that we tend to add to panicthat actually makes it a whole
lot worse.
My heart is racing and my skinis hot.
I'm having a panic attack.
First blue cushion oh no.
First purple I could die.
Second purple cushion what if Igo crazy?
Third purple cushion what if Ipass out?
Fourth purple cushion what if Iblink out and can't remember
(36:38):
anything and do something stupid?
Fifth purple cushion when wereach a five cushion pile up, we
are at a 10 on the anxietyscale.
We might even be in afull-blown panic attack mode.
This is where the compassion andrational self-talking come in,
not to push away anything, butto actually turn towards it.
I like to picture the thoughtsas leaves floating by on a
stream and I'm looking at thempassing by.
(37:00):
The key for me is not to spendtoo much time here, to note or
acknowledge, and then this isthe key part move on to the next
thing.
This has taken a tremendousamount of practice and even now
that I've become really good atit, there are moments sometimes
a lot of moments when the stickythought really gets stuck and
I'll try desperately to pry itoff my brain.
That's when I take a step back,breathe and visualize those
(37:23):
thoughts as leaves on the stream, and then I get on with my day.
Gabe Nathan (37:30):
Thank you so much for reading that.
Hannah Goodman (37:31):
That was really wonderful to listen to in your
own voice.
Gabe Nathan (37:33):
Thanks, that was really wonderful to listen to in
your own voice.
Thanks, what was that like foryou reading that?
Hannah Goodman (37:44):
and looking back on when you wrote that and sent
that here and and all of that,I felt so calm.
I felt so oddly calm reading it.
I mean, I'm I was like nervousabout reading and all the normal
nerves, but like the thingitself, you know, it used to
activate me, just to talk aboutand that was all part of my
(38:07):
exposure.
Therapy was to, and I didn'tfeel on a scale of zero to 10,
there was like no anxiety On ascale of 0 to 10, there was,
like no anxiety.
So I wasn't afraid of knives, Iwasn't afraid of like, like, all
of that is how it used to goTriggers, you know.
And really it's just kind ofamazing to read it now and when
(38:37):
I, like, I'm meant to be atherapist when I read that I
wrote that in 2019, I juststarted my private practice, had
only been a therapist for maybefour years, I guess at that
time.
And I'm not supposed to be thenext Judy Blume, I'm supposed to
be Hannah the therapist, that'sfor sure.
Gabe Nathan (39:01):
That a great realization.
I love that.
All roads lead to here.
You've had three careers,you've gone through a lot of
shit there's multiple mentalhealth diagnoses here and
challenges that you'restruggling with but you're doing
(39:21):
the thing that you're supposedto be doing, um, and I just
think that's really great, evenwhen you sort of arrived at a
place where you are really quitehappy.
Hannah Goodman (39:41):
I am, I'm quite happy.
Isn't that interesting?
You can be quite happy andstill have this.
I mean I am an, I soundswhatever it sounds like.
I mean I'm an artist too, andthe writing, the fiction writing
, is an art that's.
It's hard to be an artist.
It's so hard because you put somany hours into things right
(40:06):
and someone may never see it.
Or if they do, I think abouthow quickly people read books
and I'm like, no, do you knowhow long that writer well, I
have that struggle.
Gabe Nathan (40:18):
I mean in my personal life, like I write a
lot and I went to school fortheater and you know it was very
clear to me very early on thatI was not going to become a
professional performer.
So I do that, as you knowcommunity theater and things
like that and you find all theseways to keep something alive
right.
Find all these ways to keepsomething alive right.
(40:41):
Yes, or to sublimate, or to godown a different track and not
lose that thing.
But it's a constant struggleand a constant pain.
But professionally, here atRecovery Diaries we publish long
form essays.
The essays are 1200 words, 1500words.
(41:01):
A lot of times they're longer.
And then I get these stats thatthe average length of time
people spend on the site is aminute, a minute and one second.
Nobody's reading a 1500 wordessay in a minute and it's very
disheartening because, it's like, well, what are people doing
(41:21):
and are people really gettingwhat we want them to get out of
these essays or these films thatare 15 minutes long or seven
minutes long, or you know, sothat's that's really hard.
Longer you know, so that'sthat's really hard.
(41:41):
But the fact of the matter is isthat it gets down to control,
and I can't control how longpeople stay on the site and I
can't control if theythoughtfully read something or
if they are listening to apodcast while they're doing
dishes and they're maybe getting30 of it or or what.
Yeah, we can't control it.
No, we just put something outinto the world and hope.
Hannah Goodman (42:04):
Hope, if there's .
I love everything you just said.
It was very healing to hear.
I think as a writer I'm prettyisolated.
I don't have.
I used to have a community thatI was really part of.
I haven't.
I need to find that again.
But I appreciate what you'resaying because it's it's like
we're saying like I got it.
I'm right there with youbecause you put so much and you
(42:29):
do think, oh, I can't wait forsomeone to read.
This is going to change peopleand I, for example, this book I
just published, like it has apretty controversial twist and I
thought I was just like this isgoing to start conversation,
(42:50):
like nope, all I get not listen.
I'm grateful when anybody readsmy book, don't get me wrong,
but I wanted control.
I wanted this to be aconversation starter about a
specific thing and it'sdisappointing that it's not.
Gabe Nathan (43:12):
But I'll counter you with one small thing is that
there may be conversationshappening about this that you
have no idea are happening.
They might be happening insomeone's living room.
They might be happening betweentwo colleagues at work.
Oh my God, did you readHannah's book?
You have no idea.
Hannah Goodman (43:31):
Oh, I love that.
Gabe Nathan (43:31):
So we only know what we see online in the
comment section or in commentson social media posts.
If they're not there, that cansignal, that can give us a
message that it's not happeningat all and that's not
necessarily true.
And the fact of the matter isis that even if one person reads
(43:52):
it and it's sparkingconversation internally in them,
it's getting them to thinkabout something in a different
way.
Hannah Goodman (43:59):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (44:00):
Then that's great, then it is happening.
Hannah Goodman (44:04):
And I think what's changed I think you're
bringing up a really importantpoint about writing today, even
from 10 years ago is a lot ofpeople read stuff and they don't
necessarily respond online.
You know I'm guilty of it.
I try to be very thoughtful andif I take the time to read
something and finish it, I tryto give some sort of indication,
(44:27):
just because I know what it'slike to be on the other side.
But most people aren't thinkingthat way and I'll have people
reach out to me, maybe aboutsomething on a sub stack or
whatever, not in the commentsbut directly.
But I sort of forget that right, like in those moments.
Gabe Nathan (44:43):
I forget Because we want to see the engagement we
want to see it right now.
Hannah Goodman (44:46):
I want to see the engagement.
Gabe Nathan (44:47):
Yeah, I get it, believe me, it's the same thing
here.
I want to see the stats for theessays.
I want to look at YouTube viewsof the films, all of that shit,
but at YouTube views of thefilms, all of that shit.
But that only tells a piece ofthe story.
So just don't forget that.
Hannah Goodman (45:00):
I know You're right.
You're right.
I do have to remember that.
Gabe Nathan (45:04):
And that's the note we're going to leave it on a
hopeful, lovely, positive note.
You don't always know thethings that the stuff that we
put out into the world issparking in other human beings,
and that's the wonderful thing Ithink about being, you know, a
creative person, which youclearly are, so keep putting it
(45:25):
out there.
Hannah Goodman (45:26):
I'm going to keep trying.
Thank you, this was inspiringto me, like this was a great
conversation and it, you know,it's made me even think about
that heartbreak.
I'm experiencing with writing alittle bit differently, and
that's the other thing foranxiety, right, we get locked
into one perspective when we'rean anxious person, so we have to
widen the perspective.
So I take a lot from this, alot from this.
(45:49):
This is the highlight.
So if nothing else happensrelated to writing, I'm good.
Gabe Nathan (45:55):
This is the golden nugget for the week.
Hannah Goodman (45:57):
That's it.
Yeah, that's it.
Gabe Nathan (46:08):
Thank you, hannah.
Thank you so so much for beinghere.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so so much to ourguest today, hannah R Goodman.
She's a writer, teacher and amental health counselor.
She has two personal mentalhealth essays on our site.
She has a new romance book outand a Substack.
You can follow her there atsubstackcom at Hannah R Goodman.
(46:32):
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
(46:52):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere today on Recovery Diaries
In-Depth.
We are delighted to have HannahR Goodman as our guest.
She's a writer, teacher and amental health counselor in Rhode
Island.
She has two essays on our siteand she's gonna be talking about
(00:23):
the one that deals with stickythoughts.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:46):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
(01:07):
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Grow and, of course, make sureto like, share and subscribe.
(01:29):
Hannah Goodman, welcome toRecovery Diaries in Depth.
It's so lovely to have you here.
Thanks for joining us.
Hannah Goodman (01:35):
Thank you for having me.
Gabe Nathan (01:37):
It is a pleasure.
So you are a mental healthcounselor.
You are someone who lives withmultiple mental health diagnoses
.
You came to us a number ofyears ago by now with your first
essay, so I just want to askyou how are you today?
Hannah Goodman (02:04):
That's the right question to ask, right?
Yeah, First of all, thank youfor asking.
You're welcome.
I'm good.
I am probably.
As far as my mental health goes, I'm probably in the best place
I've been since the breakdown Ireferenced in my first essay,
which was in 2014,.
(02:24):
Despite having lots of physicalhealth issues, loss of my
father and some other things goon, surprisingly, I'm sorry to
hear about that.
Gabe Nathan (02:44):
And when I was preparing for this interview
today, I was looking at youressay.
You have two on our site, but Iwas looking at the one where
you referenced him specificallyand there's that lovely picture
of the two of you together andit's so sweet, effortlessly
reassures you when you're havingthese intrusive thoughts and
(03:05):
you're talking about it's justyour anxiety and I was thinking
about my parents' relationshipto mental health.
It's very different than that.
So you were very lucky to havethat guy in your life.
I was Giving you that gift.
Hannah Goodman (03:28):
He was a huge influence on just talking about
my anxiety because he sufferedfrom these panic attacks and we
used to sit on my porch as anadult and talk and one of our
last porch talks he shared withme I think I had forgotten about
this that he wanted to be apsychiatrist, he wanted to work
(03:49):
in mental health.
He never did.
He was a mad scientist, aresearch physicist, but he was
very proud of me, that I becamea therapist and that I was also
able to write about my anxietyand talk about my anxiety.
And, um, yeah, he was.
You know, he was.
Fathers are complicated,parents are complicated.
Gabe Nathan (04:11):
Amen.
Hannah Goodman (04:12):
But especially for the time period.
Uh, he comes from I, I thoughtit was.
I thought it was great that he,from the beginning, the very
first panic attack, he said youknow, and to my mom's credit too
, she said you know, your fatherhas these.
So of course they didn't knowwhat to do back then.
They just threw in a Xanax, nota Xanax.
What was it back then?
Gabe Nathan (04:32):
Whatever the big drug was, you said you got a
script for Valium as a kid,right.
Hannah Goodman (04:40):
One pill and I said you know what, even though
I was like 17, I was like youknow what.
Gabe Nathan (04:43):
I don't think this is the right one for me, and
that's great, because anothertype of person might have taken
one pill and been like God damn,this is the thing for me.
Hannah Goodman (04:53):
So it's good that you didn't go that way,
that's great One of the thingsabout people with anxiety
disorders that I have found as aclinician and as a human with
an anxiety disorder we're tooneurotic half the time to really
abuse honestly in my case andthen also in the case of a lot
of my clients the level ofneurosis.
Gabe Nathan (05:16):
To get someone to take a medication, even with an
anxiety disorder, can be hard,so I'll speak to that myself.
I started going to counselingin college at the college
counseling center and I wasreferred almost immediately to a
psychiatrist to be put onmedication.
And I was that bad and I saidabsolutely not.
I'm so scared.
And also, as a college student,I never drank and I mean never,
(05:41):
and at a big drinking schoolbut I was absolutely terrified
of what a drink would do to meand what a lowering of my
inhibitions would be like and ifI wasn't in full control of
everything that I said or did.
(06:02):
And to this day I don't drink.
And it's what you say aboutpeople with anxiety disorders
and resistance to addiction oreven anything that could
potentially, no matter how farfetched the scenario, go down
that road.
That rings very true to me.
Go down that road.
(06:22):
That rings very true to me.
Hannah Goodman (06:25):
It's so true that I actually similar to you.
I was in college and neverdrank.
I had some bad experiences withalcohol before I realized I had
a panic disorder and it allmade sense after, but in college
I never drank.
In my 20s and my 30s I'mturning 50 this year and I
started having wine about fiveyears ago and my psychiatrist
(06:47):
said to me this is a bigbreakthrough for you.
Normally I don't encouragedrinking.
You know what I'm talking about, right?
Gabe Nathan (06:54):
My therapist has recommended.
You know, gabe, like maybe adrink or two every now and then
might not be the worst thing foryou and I'm like what the
hell's wrong with you?
But it's, yeah, I get it.
Hannah Goodman (07:05):
She's a good.
She's a good therapist, becauseit was really wonderful for me
to learn that I was able to havethe altered state and and and
be, and not only be okay, butactually enjoy it, you know.
Gabe Nathan (07:20):
Right Not do anything criminal you know, lose
your mind or debase yourself inpublic?
Hannah Goodman (07:27):
no well, maybe a little debasing, but not in
public.
I like to drink in my housewith my family that's good, but
it's exposure therapy.
It really was and everything Imean quite honestly, every day
is exposure therapy.
So right, you know, but thatwas a big one and it is a big
one.
I.
I have a couple clients that uh, won't drink and I share my
story and I say just a sip, Iwant you to do a sip and just
(07:48):
sort of experience what that'slike and which is funny, right,
like that's not normally whatyou hear, but we are special, we
are special breed.
Gabe Nathan (07:59):
That's for sure.
My therapist has also tried toconvince me to be late to things
, which is another thing thatI'm, you know I used to show up.
This interview is not about me,but we do share a lot.
You know, when I used to workat a psychiatric hospital, haha,
I would show up like two hoursearly for my shift and just sit
(08:23):
in the parking lot like twohours early for my shift and
just sit in the parking lot andI even got like I would get
yelled at for clocking in early,like you can't clock in this
early.
If you're going to show up, youhave to stay in the parking lot
.
It was very aberrant behaviorthat at a psychiatric hospital
maybe should have been treateddifferently for a staff member.
but no, but I would show upreally early to these therapy
(08:45):
appointments and my therapistwas like you know, you really
need to dial it back, Like itwould be really great if you
could show up like 10 minutesearly or even be 10 minutes late
.
You know, I think that would bereally healthy for you to
experience.
That, you know.
And what is the fear, of course.
And what is the fear of course?
That a persona that I havebuilt up of being reliable,
(09:07):
dependable, will somehow beeroded and that people will have
a negative perception of me,because late is not nice, it's
disrespectful to be late, but Iwas never actually going to be
late.
Hannah Goodman (09:22):
But even if you were, I would argue that late
doesn't always equaldisrespectful.
Late equals a lot of differentthings.
Gabe Nathan (09:29):
It's just sometimes shit happens and that's when we
have to be human.
Hannah Goodman (09:37):
And we have to be okay that we're not perfect
and that's a big problem forthose of us with anxiety
disorders.
A big part of my exposuretherapy back when I had my
breakdown in 2014 with thistherapist who he was kind of
mean, but he was good and hereally pushed me to do all those
things I had gone for 10 yearswithout real symptoms and then,
bam, over 10 years and then Ijust fell apart and I wouldn't
(10:01):
leave the house.
I had children, I had a life, Ihad a business and I had to
quickly get back and it wasexposure therapy, which I think
is you can't just do exposuretherapy.
I just also want to say we arecomplicated, multi-layered
people, but a big part of thecrisis aspect of panic and
anxiety disorders and OC, allthe things is to do some
(10:22):
exposure.
So I, like you, have a goodtherapist.
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (10:26):
He's.
I mean, I've been seeing himsince 2010.
So we're we're pretty tight, um, and you know, I obviously
wouldn't be sticking around if I.
I if I questioned that he?
No, he knows, he knows what'sup.
Um question for you aboutwriting.
Do you view writing about yourmental health as a form of
(10:49):
exposure?
Exposure?
Hannah Goodman (10:51):
to therapy.
Yes, when I wrote both of thosepieces that are on your site, I
was, I think, the first one.
I was 2017.
So I was finishing school thatyear to be a therapist it was my
third career and had come outto close friends at my place of
(11:15):
work, which at that point hadbecome this large therapy
practice, and even to mypatients, and exhilarating and
healing on both ends.
You know, there's somethingvery bonding about that and the
trust.
You know, someone coming in andbeing like what does she know?
And then I go honey, let metell you what I know.
So what scared me about doingthis and what I felt compelled
(11:40):
to do was that now I was reallycoming out.
It's one thing.
To come out one at a time, it'sanother thing.
I also had no idea Maybe nobodywould read this.
Come to find out a lot ofpeople right.
We try to make sure.
Job done, great job, and it wasmy therapist at the time that
(12:01):
said just do it Again.
What's the worst that willhappen?
Oh, you won't be perceived asperfect.
What is perfect, all thosethings.
So, yes, writing about mentalhealth is exposure.
I continue to write aboutmental health on.
I have a sub stack.
Now that's a lot more casual.
I'm a psychotherapist by day,but I'm actually a romance
(12:23):
novelist by night.
That's a whole other story.
I just had a book come out, aromance book come out in January
.
That's exposure therapy,because that's a whole side of
me that is really up forridicule, right.
I'm putting myself on thechopping block and I have a
practice and I have my patients,know, my, my patients and stuff
(12:44):
.
Oh my God, what's that going todo?
Gabe Nathan (12:46):
You publish under your real name.
Hannah Goodman (12:48):
I do, but I add the R.
You'll love this instead ofjust Hannah Goodman.
Oh, I think I did it for thistoo.
My writing persona is Hannah RGoodman.
I don't know, I couldn't.
I'm you know what?
I can't keep track of a penname and I just yeah.
I just so I know also it's anact of I'm constantly putting
myself in situations that I'mincredibly uncomfortable and
(13:13):
finding that it peaks.
It does the same thing everytime that my original therapist
told me.
He said your anxiety is goingto peak and it's going to fall
down.
And it happens every time.
Gabe Nathan (13:26):
Yeah, what is that ride like?
Is it different, like than itwas earlier?
Hannah Goodman (13:32):
yes, there's a liberty in getting to be very
close to 50 as I, each year ofmy 40s it became more and more
and probably watching uh healthissues go on.
My father's cancer, like I justreal, and he was always like
can I swear on here or is thatnot allowed?
Gabe Nathan (13:50):
Oh God Fuck.
Yes, oh yes.
Hannah Goodman (13:53):
My dad was like fuck everything, go for it, be
yourself.
And my dad was definitelyhimself.
He had no problem and so, yeah,I think that the ride is better
now.
I'm having some trouble withthis book that just came out,
because my practice is nowthriving and it's big for a solo
(14:17):
practitioner and my therapistgave me an exposure assignment.
A couple weeks ago.
I had a signing coming up inthe town where I work and she
said I want you to put a sign upin your office and I was like,
oh God, are you sure?
She said I am sure and I did.
And I had a patient come in whohas been with me since the
first day of my practice.
(14:37):
He looked at me and he sayslooks behind me, goes.
So do you write for the money?
He's a funny guy.
Do you write for the money?
Gabe Nathan (14:46):
So no, I'm a therapist for the money.
Hannah Goodman (14:51):
Yeah, right, I go.
Uh, no, it was just reallyfunny.
And then he asked me just acouple questions and I'm a very,
you know, transparent person.
I said, yeah, I write romancenovels.
And he was like, oh okay, andthen we moved on.
See, and that was important tohave that happen, because, look,
I live in Rhode Island, yourealize, like everybody knows
everybody, small state Yep.
Someone's going to find out andso far nothing terrible has
(15:14):
happened.
Gabe Nathan (15:16):
Yeah and it won't.
But of course there's thatnagging voice of anxiety what if
, what if, what if?
And there's a part I can'tremember which essay of yours it
is Okay when I think it's aboutthe knife right here it is,
(15:36):
it's right here, yeah the knife.
So I was standing there in mykitchen I know you're supposed
to be reading this.
No, you read the blade of theknife gleaming and scaring the
shit out of me because of thethoughts I had.
What if I lose control and stabmyself in the stomach?
What if blood goes everywhere?
What if I can't stop and I justgo crazy?
And again, as someone who alsolives with generalized anxiety
(16:03):
disorder, those two words whatif?
Words, what if?
Just ring in my head constantly, and it's a constant companion.
It's a constant critical voiceand what I've learned about that
voice is it's like theguardrail on the side of the
(16:26):
highway as you're driving up amountain it wants to keep you
safe.
Hannah Goodman (16:31):
That's all it does.
Yes.
Gabe Nathan (16:33):
And so I've learned , I've tried to learn about it
as less of an antagonist, whichis, I think, in my twenties
that's how I viewed it.
It was this enemy that justkept coming at me that I had to
keep fighting back, and now Ikind of understand it and I have
empathy for it.
For those two words.
Hannah Goodman (16:53):
Yeah, and I have empathy for it, for those two
words.
All your brain wants to do iskeep you alive.
And if the back of your braintakes over and the executive
function skills, kind of like,go offline, it's going to do a
misfire, but it thinks it'strying to help you.
It's all about us saying, okay,oh, I get it All right.
Thank you, brain.
I say this all the time tomyself and I tell my clients,
when that starts, two things oh,that's my anxiety.
(17:16):
And then thank you.
Gabe Nathan (17:21):
Yeah, Because my anxiety loves me really.
Hannah Goodman (17:23):
Yeah, it does A lot, it loves you a lot, and
when we, I think I talk about inthat essay, where if you
struggle with it and you startarguing with it now, you're
causing the secondary pain, andthat can be, and to me, I think
when I work with patients, I seethat's actually what
(17:44):
perpetuates us, starts to formproblems like agoraphobia or,
like you know, just not beingable to do things.
Gabe Nathan (17:53):
Yeah.
Hannah Goodman (17:53):
You know, you.
Gabe Nathan (17:57):
You mentioned to me right before we started the
interview that you're in a Ithink you said a quote weird
place with your writing umrelated to mental health.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, cause it's such an
important part of your life andyou have the sub stack and the
romance novels.
So what's the weird place?
Hannah Goodman (18:17):
Okay, so here's where my panic comes in.
But we're doing exposuretherapy, so we're going to go
for it.
Let's have it happen right here.
My breakdown in 2014,.
And I don't remember.
I did reread the essay and then, you know, as an anxious person
, I forgot everything I read.
I don't know how much time Ispent, but the kickoff for it
was breaking up with my agent atthe time and realizing that my
(18:40):
dream of being the next JudyBlume that I'd worked for since,
you know, I was gosh 15,realizing the truth of the
publishing world and all of thedisappointment and all the
things that went wrong in thatrelationship with her, which was
five years, it really took atoll on me.
(19:01):
It felt like the end of theworld, which, when I tell people
this, I'm like man.
I don't know if I can conveythe impact of having a dream and
actually working on it andbeing this close for at that
point, like almost 20 years andthen gone, and I just had to re.
(19:24):
I was in the process of.
I had a tutoring business Beforethat.
I was a high school Englishteacher, had kids, wanted to be
home, had a tutoring business,got my MFA, got agents, got
awards, got this, got that.
The ball was rolling and thenbam, this last agent.
I had just failed me miserably.
(19:44):
I feel comfortable saying I'vewritten about it.
So that happened and theembarrassment, the failure, the
lack of perfection, having toface everyone in my family that
I had failed.
I did face students, I taughtwriting workshops, I taught
(20:06):
writing workshops and publishingat this point and I had to talk
about exposure therapy.
I had to tell everyone about myfailure and it ripped me apart.
It ripped me apart.
It was really bad, really bad.
So now that's the bad part.
Fast forward, go to a greattherapist.
(20:26):
Fast forward, go to a greattherapist.
Get my life together.
Refocus my life so that myself-worth is no longer tied to
whether or not I'm the next JudyBlume.
Work really hard at becoming atherapist.
Fall in love with that Write.
Basically, by the way, theessay, the first one that you
(20:47):
published, was I don't even knowif I ever say I don't think I
say this my therapist said Iwant you to write something and
submit it somewhere and expect Iwant you to try to fail.
Gabe Nathan (21:00):
Oh damn, I should have rejected it, sorry.
Hannah Goodman (21:05):
No, but a beautiful thing happened.
It was okay either way.
So when I did make it, it waslike oh, but my whole self-worth
isn't defined by this.
This is the cherry on top.
This is my art.
This is not all of me.
This isn't defining me.
So I worked through all of thatand things started to happen as
(21:26):
they do when you stop holdingsomething with a chokehold.
So I had my essay publishedwith you and then several other
online mental healthpublications.
Then I got a book contract onmy own, without an agent, in
2018.
Then I got another bookcontract in 2023, but my dad
(21:49):
passed away just as I got thatcontract, and I did not have the
energy, nor the will, nor thedesire, because what it takes to
be an unfamous author and Iwrote all about this on my sub
stack, if anybody wants to, andit's about mental health too
what it takes to be an unfamousauthor is you really got to
swallow any ego you have to bean unfamous author?
(22:13):
Is you really got to swallowany ego you have?
And I knew that.
I knew that I was at risk oftying my self-worth to whether
or not this book was going to dowell or not, and I had to be
careful.
My dad had just died, so I'm ina weird place because my dad
passed away in 2023.
Publishing is a long process,so the book didn't come out
until 2025, january and, truthbe told, it's hard.
(22:36):
It's hard to.
I just had a book signing wherethey did not do a nice job of
making me feel welcomed.
I wrote about that, too, on mysub stack.
So my mental health my husbandactually said to me today the
only thing he's worried aboutwith this book is that is how am
(22:56):
I really or am I able toseparate my self-worth from how
I'm going to be received and howmy book's going to be received?
Because if you're not famousand you write a fiction novel,
you're pounding pavement.
Gabe Nathan (23:14):
Yeah.
Hannah Goodman (23:14):
You know so.
Gabe Nathan (23:16):
Well, how are you really?
Hannah Goodman (23:21):
Not great with the publishing stuff.
I'll be honest with you.
At least now I'm able to sayI'm great here and I'm great
here Like I'm able to, kind of.
But the publishing this has notbeen easy.
This recent book signing washumiliating, you know, a lot of
things were said and promisedand then I get there and nothing
(23:41):
Like shoved in a corner, no, itjust was bad.
And I feel I wrote this wholething on Substack that I felt
like guilty for feeling.
You know, you know this right,I did something wrong.
Gabe Nathan (23:56):
Yeah, of course.
Hannah Goodman (23:57):
You know what that is?
That's our generalized anxiety,that's our OCD, and it was
flaring loud.
So I did the only thing I knowhow to do besides take my meds,
get exercise and go to therapy.
Just write about it, I wroteabout it, I wrote about it and I
have more to say.
I wrote it and I sent it to mygood friends and they're like.
(24:19):
I think you have more to say.
But I'm also afraid what'sgoing to happen if that
bookstore, which is my favoritebookstore, or it used to be
bookstore, which is my favoritebookstore, or it used to be, but
I have to, I have, I shouldn'tbe swallowing, you know, that's
another thing we do, those of uswith anxieties, we just put up
(24:39):
with a lot of shit and we letourselves get treated like this
was not good.
Gabe Nathan (24:47):
Yeah, and if one of the things that's lovely about
getting you know closer to 50 orwhatever age it is for other
people is that I'm kind of donebeing the world's doormat, yeah,
um then I agree I don't know.
Lean into that, because what ifthe owner of blah blah,
(25:08):
half-priced books or whatever itis, gets pissed off at you?
Okay, yeah.
Hannah Goodman (25:13):
That's okay, and I say this a lot when people
are anxious in my office and Igo is your side of the street
clean and mine is?
I did not do anything otherthan do what I was supposed to
do.
Right, and if there's going tobe blame and we're going to
point fingers, it's definitelynot at me.
(25:35):
When you invite someone to be aguest in your bookstore, there
are I've done this for 20 years.
There are things booksellersand event planners do.
None of those things occurred.
In fact, it was againhumiliating.
And thank God, my husband, oneof my daughters, two of my, you
(25:58):
know, my best friend, one of myreally good friends, everyone's
there for me to support me, andthat's if you're attempting to
do this.
You have to have support,people who love you, and thank
God for them.
But they were all looking after.
They were like, oh my God, isshe okay?
Sure, yeah, and I'm okay.
I'm like I'm fine, I'm nothaving a panic attack, I'm not
(26:19):
like ripping myself apart,self-esteem wise, or like I have
a lot of self-compassion formyself.
But I am so sad anddisappointed because this book
this is the one that my agentand I broke up over, because she
did such a shit again, a shitjob of doing what she was
(26:40):
supposed to do, and so I'm sadabout that, I'm sad that we're
off to the start and it's justreally disappointing, and I have
to face that face it andexpress yourself about it and
work through it.
Gabe Nathan (26:58):
Work through it Because it's also bringing up
all that stuff about therelationship with the agent.
So that's all still there andthat's hard.
Hannah Goodman (27:07):
Yeah, and feeling humiliated is such a
weird feeling, because if youdissect humiliation, it's like
well, but it's not your fault,and yet you know what.
You know what really sucks isis and I think a lot of us with
anxiety disorders wind upfeeling this way, like but I
didn't do anything wrong and I'mthe one carrying around false
guilt, like right, which I usedto call myself when I was trying
(27:32):
to get better.
Like way back when I had my, mybreakdown, I used to call
myself an anxiety warrior, likeI was trying to talk myself up,
you know, because that's what Ifeel like in these moments, like
I'm an anxious person, so I'mautomatically going to assume
responsibility, even forwhatever.
But then that stronger part ofme, that warrior, has to be like
no, protect yourself, youdidn't do anything wrong, you
(27:58):
know.
So how am I doing?
It's hard, I don't know yeah,and that's okay.
Gabe Nathan (28:05):
That's okay and it's much better than like
diluting or putting on an act ora mask, which is what you know
a lot of us do to get throughjust the everyday and also the
really hard stuff.
But let's move on to a lovelierpart of writing and
(28:27):
self-expression and let's getinto one of the two essays of
yours that are on our site, andthis one is called when Thoughts
Are Sticky, pure OCD andGeneralized Anxiety Disorder, by
Hannah R Goodman.
Hannah Goodman (28:47):
Though I'm in recovery from generalized
anxiety disorder, that doesn'tmean I am cured.
Gad can be chronic, withperiods of remission and mini
flare-ups.
One of the symptoms I strugglewith during these mini flare-ups
is intrusive thoughts.
These thoughts are notnecessarily pathological or an
indication of a mental illness.
(29:08):
If you are human, you have hadan intrusive thought at some
point in your life.
Make that probably some pointin your day.
Intrusive thoughts arebasically anxious, scary
thoughts that float into yourbrain, sometimes for no specific
reason.
The majority of the time thosethoughts float in and float out
(29:28):
and you can move on with yourday.
For me, sometimes I go for longstretches where these types of
thoughts don't really stick tome.
An anxious thought floats in, Itake note of it and then I can
watch it float by.
Other times, when I'm having amini flare-up of anxiety,
anxious, scary thoughts stompinto my brain, have a fit, and
(29:49):
they don't leave In this state.
My thoughts do this OCD type ofthing that I call sticky
thinking.
My thoughts do this OCD type ofthing that I call sticky
thinking.
This is sometimes referred toas pure OCD.
With this type of thinking, youfeel like you are grabbing onto
each and every disturbing orpainful thought and then
rustling it into the ground inthe hopes that you will make it
(30:10):
go away.
Earlier this year, I foundmyself in a desperate wrestling
match with some very stickythinking.
Earlier this year, I foundmyself in a desperate wrestling
match with some very stickythinking.
I was going through some of myout-of-control work-related
stress and noticed that mythinking was becoming more and
more sticky with each passingday, to the point where every
time I would walk into thekitchen I would think there are
(30:31):
knives in here.
What if I lose control and stabmyself?
Or if I managed to make it allthe way to the kitchen and
actually pick up one to use tocut up fruit for my daughter or
carrots for dinnertime?
I would immediately worry thatif I didn't cut everything up
quickly, I might lose controland stab myself.
One morning during this time Iwas running around getting my
(30:51):
youngest ready for school whilealso trying to pack my own lunch
to take to work.
When just the sight of akitchen knife laying on the
countertop triggered me, I beganto worry and obsess that I
might grab the knife and totallylose control and stab myself.
And then my children would seethis and I would forever scar
them, because this was not myfirst time in a mini OCD
(31:14):
flare-up.
It was a part of me that knew Iwas having these thoughts, not
because I actually want to stabmyself, but because I'm afraid
that somehow and here is wherethe irrational brain does its
thing I will lose control, blinkout like a computer on overload
and possibly act on the scarythought.
It's the obsessive andcompulsive process of if I think
it, then I won't do it becauseI will scare myself enough.
(31:37):
If I think it, then I won't doit because I will scare myself
enough.
So there I was, standing in mykitchen, the blade of the knife
gleaming and scaring the shitout of me because of the
thoughts I had.
What if I lose control and stabmyself in the stomach?
What if blood goes everywhere?
What if I can't stop and I justgo crazy?
Though this only lasted a fewminutes, those moments were
treacherous and a lot went on.
In those moments my mind wentright to but I don't want to
(31:59):
hurt myself.
What if I can't stop myself?
Oh no, why am I having thisthought?
Then?
Great, you're going crazy.
See, you can't be a therapist.
You're sicker than any clientyou may ever help.
But, unlike what might'vehappened years ago, I caught
myself.
I became mindful of what washappening and, instead of
(32:19):
wrestling with the thought ortrying to stomp on it and make
it go away, I took a breath, andthen another, focusing on the
in and the out sensation, and inthis act, I began to allow for
some space between me and thesescary thoughts.
In this space, I was able toremember what a therapist once
advised for these moments Tellyourself okay, that thought
scares me.
(32:39):
Of course it does, that's fine,let it be, do nothing, just
breathe.
This type of self-talk is whathelps me get through a mini
flare-up.
I'm not turning away from oravoiding my thoughts.
Instead, I acknowledge them andthen I focus on the breath,
which brings me into the moment.
The way I spoke to myself whenI first saw the knife was all
(33:00):
future-oriented, what-ifthinking, the type of thinking
that can really amp up myanxiety.
However, I caught myself andthen basically challenged these
thoughts with soothing, rational, in-the-moment self-talk.
When I did this, I felt myanxiety lower.
I continued to make my lunchand then move on to the rest of
the morning.
(33:21):
I remember the first time I hadscary knife thoughts.
As I referred to them.
I was in my late teens and onvacation with my recently
divorced dad.
On that first night after a dayof cross-country skiing, as I
waited in the lobby for my dadto go to dinner, an image of the
blade of a knife came to mymind.
I wasn't hallucinating, it wasa.
An image of the blade of aknife came to my mind.
I wasn't hallucinating, it wasa clear image of a knife and the
sharp tip of it in my mind'seye.
It caused me to cringe a little, almost as if thinking about it
(33:43):
would cause it to physicallyhurt me.
I tried to push it away, but itkept turning.
Finally, over dinner, Iconfessed to my father and he
simply said that's your anxiety,don't worry about it.
Though my dad wasn't a mentalhealth provider, he was no
stranger to the weirdness ofanxiety symptoms and since he
had them himself, he normalizedthis experience for me.
(34:05):
On and off over the next decade,these thoughts would come in
and stick and I would think ofmy dad, what my dad told me, and
somehow I was able to move on.
But here I was at that kitchencounter, a full grown adult with
the responsibility and stressof small children, work and
marriage, having those sameknife thoughts.
This time they weren't fleeting, they were constant, triggered
by anything from watchingMasterChef to walking by a knife
(34:26):
that lay on the counter in thekitchen.
I was in therapy at the timefor a tune-up for my anxiety.
I told my therapist to explainwhat pure OCD is.
Knowing that this had aspecific name helped and knowing
that it was, as my father hadindicated years before, another
symptom of anxiety, I could putit in perspective.
It didn't make learning to copewith these thoughts easy, but
(34:47):
it definitely made it possible.
My thinking during these timescan not only be scary but also
make me feel like I'm a bad orevil person for having such
thoughts.
But then I remind myself that athought is just a thought, not
a behavior.
The very fact that these scarythoughts cause anxiety means
that I don't want to act onthose thoughts.
And, at the same time, athought only has the power that
(35:09):
you give it.
I take the power of irrational,scary thoughts through soothing
self-talk and breathing intothe present moment.
In the past, I would work veryhard to push away, deny, avoid
or repress all scary thoughts,yelling at myself, hiding knives
and avoiding using anythingsharp, even a pair of scissors.
(35:29):
All that did was increase thepower of the thoughts, and then
I actually made my anxiety worsebecause I created more
suffering, which is now asecondary pain to the first.
Secondary suffering occurs inan effort to avoid the emotional
pain, you shove it awayforcibly, and in the act of
shoving you actually become moreupset.
The best way to explain this isfrom a video by Birch that I
(35:53):
watched when I took the PaylooseMindfulness course, which shows
an example of how secondarypain works.
Basically, it's the originalpain.
It's like the original pain isa blue cushion on your lap and
the secondary pain is pilingmore and more cushions on top of
the original blue one.
It's like when you feel thatfirst rush of panic.
That is painful, but it's thepiling on of what ifs and coulds
(36:16):
that we tend to add to panicthat actually makes it a whole
lot worse.
My heart is racing and my skinis hot.
I'm having a panic attack.
First blue cushion oh no.
First purple I could die.
Second purple cushion what if Igo crazy?
Third purple cushion what if Ipass out?
Fourth purple cushion what if Iblink out and can't remember
(36:38):
anything and do something stupid?
Fifth purple cushion when wereach a five cushion pile up, we
are at a 10 on the anxietyscale.
We might even be in afull-blown panic attack mode.
This is where the compassion andrational self-talking come in,
not to push away anything, butto actually turn towards it.
I like to picture the thoughtsas leaves floating by on a
stream and I'm looking at thempassing by.
(37:00):
The key for me is not to spendtoo much time here, to note or
acknowledge, and then this isthe key part move on to the next
thing.
This has taken a tremendousamount of practice and even now
that I've become really good atit, there are moments sometimes
a lot of moments when the stickythought really gets stuck and
I'll try desperately to pry itoff my brain.
That's when I take a step back,breathe and visualize those
(37:23):
thoughts as leaves on the stream, and then I get on with my day.
Gabe Nathan (37:30):
Thank you so much for reading that.
Hannah Goodman (37:31):
That was really wonderful to listen to in your
own voice.
Gabe Nathan (37:33):
Thanks, that was really wonderful to listen to in
your own voice.
Thanks, what was that like foryou reading that?
Hannah Goodman (37:44):
and looking back on when you wrote that and sent
that here and and all of that,I felt so calm.
I felt so oddly calm reading it.
I mean, I'm I was like nervousabout reading and all the normal
nerves, but like the thingitself, you know, it used to
activate me, just to talk aboutand that was all part of my
(38:07):
exposure.
Therapy was to, and I didn'tfeel on a scale of zero to 10,
there was like no anxiety On ascale of 0 to 10, there was,
like no anxiety.
So I wasn't afraid of knives, Iwasn't afraid of like, like, all
of that is how it used to goTriggers, you know.
And really it's just kind ofamazing to read it now and when
(38:37):
I, like, I'm meant to be atherapist when I read that I
wrote that in 2019, I juststarted my private practice, had
only been a therapist for maybefour years, I guess at that
time.
And I'm not supposed to be thenext Judy Blume, I'm supposed to
be Hannah the therapist, that'sfor sure.
Gabe Nathan (39:01):
That a great realization.
I love that.
All roads lead to here.
You've had three careers,you've gone through a lot of
shit there's multiple mentalhealth diagnoses here and
challenges that you'restruggling with but you're doing
(39:21):
the thing that you're supposedto be doing, um, and I just
think that's really great, evenwhen you sort of arrived at a
place where you are really quitehappy.
Hannah Goodman (39:41):
I am, I'm quite happy.
Isn't that interesting?
You can be quite happy andstill have this.
I mean I am an, I soundswhatever it sounds like.
I mean I'm an artist too, andthe writing, the fiction writing
, is an art that's.
It's hard to be an artist.
It's so hard because you put somany hours into things right
(40:06):
and someone may never see it.
Or if they do, I think abouthow quickly people read books
and I'm like, no, do you knowhow long that writer well, I
have that struggle.
Gabe Nathan (40:18):
I mean in my personal life, like I write a
lot and I went to school fortheater and you know it was very
clear to me very early on thatI was not going to become a
professional performer.
So I do that, as you knowcommunity theater and things
like that and you find all theseways to keep something alive
right.
Find all these ways to keepsomething alive right.
(40:41):
Yes, or to sublimate, or to godown a different track and not
lose that thing.
But it's a constant struggleand a constant pain.
But professionally, here atRecovery Diaries we publish long
form essays.
The essays are 1200 words, 1500words.
(41:01):
A lot of times they're longer.
And then I get these stats thatthe average length of time
people spend on the site is aminute, a minute and one second.
Nobody's reading a 1500 wordessay in a minute and it's very
disheartening because, it's like, well, what are people doing
(41:21):
and are people really gettingwhat we want them to get out of
these essays or these films thatare 15 minutes long or seven
minutes long, or you know, sothat's that's really hard.
Longer you know, so that'sthat's really hard.
(41:41):
But the fact of the matter is isthat it gets down to control,
and I can't control how longpeople stay on the site and I
can't control if theythoughtfully read something or
if they are listening to apodcast while they're doing
dishes and they're maybe getting30 of it or or what.
Yeah, we can't control it.
No, we just put something outinto the world and hope.
Hannah Goodman (42:04):
Hope, if there's .
I love everything you just said.
It was very healing to hear.
I think as a writer I'm prettyisolated.
I don't have.
I used to have a community thatI was really part of.
I haven't.
I need to find that again.
But I appreciate what you'resaying because it's it's like
we're saying like I got it.
I'm right there with youbecause you put so much and you
(42:29):
do think, oh, I can't wait forsomeone to read.
This is going to change peopleand I, for example, this book I
just published, like it has apretty controversial twist and I
thought I was just like this isgoing to start conversation,
(42:50):
like nope, all I get not listen.
I'm grateful when anybody readsmy book, don't get me wrong,
but I wanted control.
I wanted this to be aconversation starter about a
specific thing and it'sdisappointing that it's not.
Gabe Nathan (43:12):
But I'll counter you with one small thing is that
there may be conversationshappening about this that you
have no idea are happening.
They might be happening insomeone's living room.
They might be happening betweentwo colleagues at work.
Oh my God, did you readHannah's book?
You have no idea.
Hannah Goodman (43:31):
Oh, I love that.
Gabe Nathan (43:31):
So we only know what we see online in the
comment section or in commentson social media posts.
If they're not there, that cansignal, that can give us a
message that it's not happeningat all and that's not
necessarily true.
And the fact of the matter isis that even if one person reads
(43:52):
it and it's sparkingconversation internally in them,
it's getting them to thinkabout something in a different
way.
Hannah Goodman (43:59):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (44:00):
Then that's great, then it is happening.
Hannah Goodman (44:04):
And I think what's changed I think you're
bringing up a really importantpoint about writing today, even
from 10 years ago is a lot ofpeople read stuff and they don't
necessarily respond online.
You know I'm guilty of it.
I try to be very thoughtful andif I take the time to read
something and finish it, I tryto give some sort of indication,
(44:27):
just because I know what it'slike to be on the other side.
But most people aren't thinkingthat way and I'll have people
reach out to me, maybe aboutsomething on a sub stack or
whatever, not in the commentsbut directly.
But I sort of forget that right, like in those moments.
Gabe Nathan (44:43):
I forget Because we want to see the engagement we
want to see it right now.
Hannah Goodman (44:46):
I want to see the engagement.
Gabe Nathan (44:47):
Yeah, I get it, believe me, it's the same thing
here.
I want to see the stats for theessays.
I want to look at YouTube viewsof the films, all of that shit,
but at YouTube views of thefilms, all of that shit.
But that only tells a piece ofthe story.
So just don't forget that.
Hannah Goodman (45:00):
I know You're right.
You're right.
I do have to remember that.
Gabe Nathan (45:04):
And that's the note we're going to leave it on a
hopeful, lovely, positive note.
You don't always know thethings that the stuff that we
put out into the world issparking in other human beings,
and that's the wonderful thing Ithink about being, you know, a
creative person, which youclearly are, so keep putting it
(45:25):
out there.
Hannah Goodman (45:26):
I'm going to keep trying.
Thank you, this was inspiringto me, like this was a great
conversation and it, you know,it's made me even think about
that heartbreak.
I'm experiencing with writing alittle bit differently, and
that's the other thing foranxiety, right, we get locked
into one perspective when we'rean anxious person, so we have to
widen the perspective.
So I take a lot from this, alot from this.
(45:49):
This is the highlight.
So if nothing else happensrelated to writing, I'm good.
Gabe Nathan (45:55):
This is the golden nugget for the week.
Hannah Goodman (45:57):
That's it.
Yeah, that's it.
Gabe Nathan (46:08):
Thank you, hannah.
Thank you so so much for beinghere.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so so much to ourguest today, hannah R Goodman.
She's a writer, teacher and amental health counselor.
She has two personal mentalhealth essays on our site.
She has a new romance book outand a Substack.
You can follow her there atsubstackcom at Hannah R Goodman.
(46:32):
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
(46:52):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.