October 13, 2024 • 50 mins
Discover the transformative journey of Tree Franklyn, a best-selling author and founder of the Empathic Awakening Academy, as she candidly recounts her battle with mental health and the inspiration behind her poignant letter, "Mom, I Want to Kill Myself." Tree's story is one of resilience and humor, often finding solace in nature despite her amusing struggle with allergies. Together, we challenge the harmful "suck it up" mentality and reflect on how societal attitudes can impact personal well-being.
Tree opens up about the silent shadows that shaped her upbringing, with her father's PTSD from the Vietnam War and her mother's experiences as an orphan in Vietnam coloring their family dynamics. Despite growing up in an environment where mental health was a taboo topic, Tree's determination to advocate for mental health blossomed through her personal blog. Her message is clear: even in the darkest moments, there is a path to healing and a future filled with light.
Through insights inspired by psychologist Carl Rogers and her own experiences, Tree emphasizes the incredible power of empathy and active listening. Her heartfelt essay on the Recovery Diaries site continues to be a beacon of hope for those grappling with suicidal thoughts. As we explore Tree's journey from despair to happiness, we extend an invitation to stay engaged with our content and join us in supporting mental health awareness.
https://treefranklyn.com/
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabriel Nathan (00:00):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, abe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We are happy to have you hereon today's show.
We're going to be speaking toTree Franklyn.
She's a best-selling author, acoach and a founder of the
Empathic Awakening Academy.
She's going to be talking abouther heartfelt letter to her
(00:21):
mother.
"Mom, I want to kill myself.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast health,empowerment and change.
(01:05):
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You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Course, make sure to like,share and subscribe.
(01:35):
Tree Franklyn, welcome toRecovery Diaries in Depth.
It is so delightful to have youon the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Tree Franklyn (01:38):
Thank you, Gabe.
I'm so honored to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Gabriel Nathan (01:41):
Yeah, it's a pleasure and this is a new
podcast and it's so exciting tohave you on as one of our very
first guests and I don't know Ijust I view this as such an
exciting opportunity to A (01:53):
talk to people I like about a
subject that really interests me, which is mental health, so
this is like the greatest thingin the world for me.
I hope it's good for you tooand enjoyable.
Tree Franklyn (02:06):
It is.
I love talking about mentalhealth, even though sometimes
it's pretty depressing.
Gabriel Nathan (02:13):
But you're laughing.
Yes, we're off to a good startalready.
Tree Franklyn (02:17):
Yes, absolutely.
Gabriel Nathan (02:18):
You know, I think it was Charlie Chaplin who
said that we laugh so that wemay not weep.
Tree Franklyn (02:24):
Yeah, I love that .
Gabriel Nathan (02:25):
I mean, and it's true, because it is hard to
talk about and it is depressingat times, but it doesn't have to
be.
And I think that you know welose so much when we forget that
we are not just our mentalillness, right, we are whole
(02:50):
complex individuals with sensesof humor and silly things that
happen to us during the day, andyou know, we're all of these
things.
All of these things, and Iguess my first question for you
is, as an advocate and assomeone who talks very openly
(03:18):
about her mental health, do you,I guess?
What do you do to fill yourtank and to make sure that
you're not losing all thoseother bits and pieces of you
that may not be getting as muchattention day to day?
Tree Franklyn (03:28):
I'm really spiritual so I have to do things
that feed my spirit.
So whether it's just being innature, being around trees,
doing silly things like talkingto the trees and hugging trees,
and talking to bees and fliesand birds and having
conversations with them, itmakes me feel very connected to
(03:52):
this bigger world, to thisbigger something.
There's something bigger thanjust our humanity and our
emotions and our struggle.
So those things I really maketime for for, whether it's just
even five minutes sittingoutside and looking into the sky
.
What is your favorite tree tohug?
Do you have a favorite?
(04:13):
You know, surprisingly, I did an allergy
test uh four years ago and I'mpretty much allergic to all of
nature and trees and grass and.
.
.
Do you have to pop an allergypill before?
No, I just suck it up, I just hug them anyway.
Every once in a while I pop aZyrtec.
Gabriel Nathan (04:32):
There you go.
Tree Franklyn (04:32):
Just because I get too rashy, but I try not to
do that all the time and everyday.
But yeah, I'm pretty much.
For some reason my body isallergic to a lot of grass and
trees and shrubs and I just lovethem.
Anyway, I love cottonwood treesjust because where we go
fishing my favorite spots tofish they have a lot of
cottonwood trees out there.
(04:53):
But I don't care that I'mallergic to them.
They're my most highly allergictree.
Gabriel Nathan (04:59):
Oh my God, and where are you?
Geographically roughly in theworld?
Right now I'm in SouthernCalifornia.
Southern California, OK.
You said something aboutallergies.
I said do you pop a pill?
And you said, no, I just suckit up.
I was driving behind a vanyesterday that had a bumper
sticker that said "suck it upbuttercup was thinking about
(05:28):
mental health and I was thinkingabout suicide and about what we
know now that we didn't knowbefore or that we knew about but
didn't care.
You know that when someonewould be struggling with mental
health or they would sometimesget that refrain, suck it up,
suck it up buttercup.
And I was thinking about whysomeone would put that on the
(05:53):
back of their van and how it'sjust the total antithesis of
what we want to be teaching kids.
And I wanted to know if you hadany experience like that,
growing up with that kind oflike suck it up attitude, maybe
when you were in your earlierdays of struggling, or is it
(06:15):
something that you maybe toldyourself in your ea rly days ?
Tree Franklyn (06:21):
All the time I told myself that.
I told myself why can't youjust let it go?
Why do you have to takeeverything so deeply and why do
you have to feel so intenselywhere everybody else just sort
of brushes things off and theyseem okay?
And so I think a huge part ofdepression that actually makes
(06:41):
it worse is our attitude towardsourselves and saying that we
shouldn't be this way Life is.
You know, there are so many goodthings happening for us and why
are we so depressed and wecan't really pinpoint the reason
, and so we sort of blameourselves for it, where
everybody else seems to be ableto suck it up and be okay with
things and brush things off, andfor us we feel really deeply if
(07:03):
we're struggling with mentalhealth challenges and I think
that that shame and that feelingof I'm not doing well, I'm not
doing good enough, I'm not able,I'm not strong enough to make
myself feel better, that sort ofthing, and I think it's pretty
dangerous that suck it up,buttercup.
(07:24):
In some ways it can be prettydangerous in the context of when
someone is really depressed.
You can't just say suck it upand they're like okay, great,
I'm fine now.
Gabriel Nathan (07:34):
Well, it's like telling a person with anxiety
don't worry so much.
It's like, oh wow, why didn't Ithink of that?
Tree Franklyn (07:43):
Very smart, right ?
Yeah, there are times like Iwas in Vietnam, gosh, like 20
years ago, and we all rentedscooters me and two of my
friends.
We rented scooters and we wentinto town, we hired this person,
took us real deep into thisthird-world town and we got
(08:07):
stuck in a huge heavy rainstormand we had to ride our scooters
back.
It took about an hour in heavyrain and torrential downpour and
we were not prepared for it.
We didn't have rain jackets oranything, because earlier on the
day it was nice and warm andsunny and I was so scared and I
was so freezing and I was soscared and I was so freezing and
I was so cold and we all justhad to keep moving because our
(08:29):
scooters were running out of gas.
We just had to get back to thehotel and I told myself suck it
up, suck it up, suck it up, justgo, because I really wanted to
stop and cry.
I really just wanted to like,stop what's happening, it's just
too intense, but you can't, youhave to get back before you run
out of gas or before it getsreally dark, and so that advice
(08:51):
really helped me at that time incertain times where you just
have to keep moving.
You have to keep going, but forthe most part, yeah, suck it up
or don't worry so much.
It doesn't really help on aday-to-day basis.
Gabriel Nathan (09:05):
And I think the other thing, too, that you said
earlier also, that like, well,everyone else can do it,
everyone else is.
But that's bullshit too,because they're not.
Like we have this idea thatwe're not okay but everyone else
is, and the reality is that noone's okay, but everyone else is
(09:27):
, and the reality is that noone's okay.
Everyone is struggling,everyone is faking it, Everyone,
you know, doesn't know whetherto shit or go blind, for lack of
a better term.
Right, but we have this ideathat it's just us.
And where does that come from,do you think?
Tree Franklyn (09:44):
I think it comes from us not being open to
talking about it.
Like, you and I are talkingabout it and there are a lot of
websites and podcasts and socialmedia and things now and it's
becoming more and more open andokay for people to talk about it
.
Back in the day, when I was inmy 20s, obviously there was no
internet.
Nobody was talking about it.
(10:05):
Everybody was faking it.
So you look at everybody fakingit and you think everybody else
is doing well, but you're right, Everybody else was just pretty
much suffering as much as I was, but nobody talked about it
because it was a stigma it wasback then.
We thought it was a weakness aninherent weakness in ourselves,
and now I think there's so mucheducation about it and
(10:25):
information about it that we'rerealizing that it's not
necessarily a weakness.
It's.
Sometimes it's our biology,it's our chemistry, sometimes
it's just a certain adaptationskills that we need to learn.
It's just a whole combinationof things and we are realizing
that it's not a flaw in us.
We were not born flawed and nowwe're stuck like this for the
(10:49):
rest of our lives, whereas weused to think it was.
Gabriel Nathan (10:53):
Can you talk to me about those earlier days for
you, when you were firststruggling with mental health
and with suicidality?
How did that come Like?
How did that come about and howdid that manifest within you
and what was it like in yourfamily, you know?
(11:15):
Did you talk about it with yourfamily?
How did all of that really kindof begin for you?
Tree Franklyn (11:24):
Yeah, I think part of it is genetic and
there's a lot of studies nowthat's testing genetics and
where depression comes from.
And I think we do get some ofthat from our DNA, from our
ancestors and our parents andour grandparents, and I think it
does get passed down to us.
It doesn't mean that we'restuck with that because oh, it's
in our parents and ourgrandparents and I think it does
(11:44):
get passed down to us.
It doesn't mean that we'restuck with that because oh, it's
in our DNA and that's itforever.
We're screwed.
But it just means that we canat least sort of forgive
ourselves for having taken onsomeone else's emotions and pain
.
My father, I think he nevertalked about emotions at all, so
(12:05):
mental health wasn't even athing in you know.
It wasn't even a phrase in hismouth that ever came out in his
emotions, where he just sort ofshoved them down with alcohol.
And he suffered from verysevere PTSD from the Vietnam War
, which is where I sprang from.
My dad was in the military,american white in the military,
(12:26):
went and met my mom, who'sVietnamese, in the Vietnam War
and then had some babies andbrought us back to the US and he
never got help for his PTSDfrom the things that he saw.
He never talked about the warwith us.
We knew, everybody knew that hedrowned his sorrows in alcohol.
Nobody ever talked about it.
It was the big elephant in theroom growing up, and my mom
(12:48):
growing up she was an orphan andher parents had died when she
was young, as a kid, as ateenager, and so she sort of was
raised by her teenage sisteralso, and I believe that she
suffered a lot of mental healthproblems as well, and nobody,
neither of them, got help for it, Neither of them acknowledged
(13:09):
it for themselves, and so,raising a child, they were not
able to have those conversationswith me, and so I sort of had
to flounder around and figure itout on my own, and they of
course never showed theirsadness or their depression or
their anxiety.
So I just thought I was crazy.
Gabriel Nathan (13:34):
And that's a heavy burden to carry around, to
think that and then to not beable to express it to the people
closest to you.
Tree Franklyn (13:45):
Yeah.
Gabriel Nathan (13:46):
Did your siblings struggle with mental
health too?
Tree Franklyn (13:49):
I think so in their own way not specifically
in the same way that I did and Ithink that they all had their
own way of handling it.
It was very different.
My middle sister's veryextroverted and so she got a lot
of help not by talking about itbut just by being very social
and having a lot of friends anddoing a lot of things and
(14:09):
keeping very busy.
And I'm very introverted and Itake things in internally a lot,
and so I didn't talk to a lotof people, I just sort of
internally had conversationswith myself, and then my other
sister had conversations withmyself, and then my other sister
.
I feel that we all strugglewith it in our own ways and I
(14:30):
feel that we all somewhat stilldo struggle with it in our own
ways.
Everybody not just me or mysisters and my parents, but I
think everybody struggles withmental health.
They find their own way to dealwith it.
Gabriel Nathan (14:44):
Yeah, either healthy or not.
Tree Franklyn (14:48):
Absolutely yeah.
Gabriel Nathan (14:49):
Yeah, Can you talk a little bit about how and
why you first really dipped yourtoe into putting yourself out
there in terms of mental healthadvocacy?
Why and what was your firstforay into kind of being a
(15:09):
little bit more public-like?
And then I have a follow-up.
But I think I've asked you toomuch, so I'll just hold back for
a minute.
Tree Franklyn (15:18):
It's all good.
I started a side blog like aside hustle.
I started a side blog like aside hustle.
I started a blog online and Iwas just writing about things in
general.
You know, when you start a blog, you don't really know what the
heck your niche is or narrowdown or all of that stuff.
You just write for the sake ofwriting.
And I wrote, dear Mom, on my ownblog and it was just very
(15:44):
cathartic for me to write that.
It was really more for me thananybody else and I was feeling
real happy at that certain timein my life and I wanted people
to know that just because youare in this way, it doesn't mean
that you have to be in that wayforever and that there is light
(16:06):
at the end of the tunnel.
And my blog, somehow all of mywritings, tend to go towards
emotions and emotional thingsand healing, and so I got a lot
of people who signed on mysubscribers and they always
asked me you know, how can yoube so happy and what did you do?
And so I was like you know whatI think people really need to
(16:26):
hear this that when I was reallydown and depressed, I thought
that was it.
Like there's no, that's it.
There's no more future for me,this is the way it's going to be
forever, and there's no lightat the end of the tunnel.
I'm just cursed for this and Iprobably deserve it, and blah,
blah, blah.
And so I didn't want anyone elseto feel that way, and it took
(16:47):
me a long time to climb out ofit, and I think a lot of people
nowadays are looking for thatmagic pill, whether it's a
physical pill that they take oran article that they read or a
new book that they read, andthey think it's going to be.
Everything's going to behunky-dory and wonderful from
then on.
But I want people to know thatsometimes it's a process,
sometimes it's a long journey,but regardless of whether it's a
(17:09):
long journey or a short journey, for them it's still a journey
and there is light at the end ofthe tunnel.
That's why I started writingabout it.
That's why I love talking aboutit now.
Gabriel Nathan (17:21):
I can't believe that was your first.
That was really your firstpublic piece, "ear Mom.
Tree Franklyn (17:26):
Yes, yes.
To that level and that depth.
Gabriel Nathan (17:31):
Yeah, and I think you know what you were
saying about feeling that way,that this is what I'm cursed to
be forever.
This is just how it's going tobe.
This is my story that I'mdepressed, I'm feeling suicidal,
and that's just what it's goingto be.
You know, that's suicide rightthere.
(17:54):
It's helpless and hopeless, andwe combine that and lock that
in and that's a really, reallydangerous place to be, and so I
think it's so lovely that onceyou were out of that, that, y ou
felt confident enough and, like, stable enough and well enough
(18:16):
to be able to communicate topeople, stable enough and well
enough to be able to communicateto people.
No, you know, that's not,that's not your story.
You're not doomed, you canclimb out of that.
Um, because I think it's onething to tell people you got
this, or you're not alone, oryou can do this, but you're
(18:36):
actually showing them, um, youknow, you're providing this
personal story that really showspeople you actually can get
better.
It's a really beautiful thing.
Tree Franklyn (18:49):
Yeah, and it's also because I heard when I was
depressed you know, peoplesaying exactly what you just
said, like you'll get over it,you'll get through this and all
of those things.
But they're very flippantremarks.
When you have someone who'sactually been through it and
they sit with you and theyactually say, yes, you will get
through it, and you know thatthey know what you're talking
(19:11):
about, they've been through itrather than just a friend or a
partner saying, oh, you'll getthrough it, it's just a
difficult time, you'll getthrough it.
It makes you feel like you'rebeing dismissed when people say
that, right, but when peopleactually really do understand
what you're going through andcan actually sit there in that
pain with you and allow you tobe in that pain and not try to
(19:33):
fix it and not try to help you,but just sort of be there with
you, then it does give you thatsense of hope and it gives you
that feeling that you're notalone.
Gabriel Nathan (19:44):
Well, let's share that sense of hope with
our listeners.
If you would be so gracious toplease read your essay, we would
love to hear it in your voice.
It is called "Dear Mom, I Wantto Kill Myself.
Tree Franklyn (19:58):
Okay.
In my early 20s I was diagnosedwith manic depression, now
commonly known as bipolardisorder.
I had suicidal thoughts everyday for nearly a decade,
starting from my late teens.
I wanted to die.
Every night I would fall asleepto a tear-soaked pillow,
begging a cruel, invisible Godto have the mercy to let the bed
(20:20):
swallow me up so I coulddisappear.
Cruel, invisible God to havethe mercy to let the bed swallow
me up so I could disappear.
And every morning I would wakeup with strands of clumped,
tear-dried hair, furious that Iwas still alive.
On multiple occasions I've helda knife to my wrist and neck and
a gun to my mouth and temple,and on every occasion I was too
scared to follow through.
Leak loser.
Can't even kill yourself.
(20:41):
Can't go on living and youcan't go on dying.
You're pitiful, useless.
One quick little push throughthe flesh, one tiny little
squeeze of the trigger that'sall it takes, and yet you can't
even get that right.
The world would be a betterplace without you in it taking
up so much worthless space.
You're a disgrace.
These are the thoughts that wentthrough my head every day, and
(21:03):
that was my reality.
I was living in a black hole,its powerful gravity sucking me
in pulling me down.
I desperately tried to claw myway out of it, but it was a
constant struggle to hold on, tostay alive.
Just one more day.
And the worst part no oneunderstood.
In a world of six billionpeople, I was alone.
Everyone else seemed happy andunaffected, light and carefree,
(21:27):
and I was the opposite.
I felt everything, especiallythe darker, heavier emotions.
Little things made me so sadand I cried all the time.
Somehow I missed the memo onhow to be happy, or maybe I just
wasn't good enough to deservewhat everyone else seemed to
have.
The ones who were close to metried to help, but their
attempts at care always made mefeel worse.
I remember the utterly helplesslook in my mom's eyes one day
(21:51):
when I was visiting her in StLouis.
We were in her kitchen and shewas cooking bacon over the stove
, flipping each wavy piece witha fork as they sizzled in the
oil.
She stopped between pieces,turned and asked me for the
hundredth time why I was so sad.
I was sitting at the tablealone and I looked up at her,
wanting desperately to have ananswer for her, but I didn't.
(22:12):
There was no reason.
I couldn't point my finger toanything and say this is it.
This is the reason I'mdepressed.
It was just a generalall-around feeling of
hopelessness and worthlessness,of not belonging.
And sad was such an insultingunderstatement to how I really
felt.
When I tried to explain all thatto her, her eyes died and I saw
(22:34):
the dark clouds that surroundedme starting to envelop her.
I felt her helplessness inaddition to mine.
It's one thing to be depressed.
It's another to see mysuffering spread to someone I
love dearly.
That was when I learned to puton a fake smile to pretend that
things were okay, when deep downI wanted nothing more than to
die.
I never wanted to see that lookin my mom's eyes again, and I
(22:55):
never did.
But years later I discoveredthat she had learned how to put
on a fake smile too.
When I pretended thateverything was okay, she
pretended to believe me becauseshe didn't know what else to do.
And the worst thing for a parentis to see their child in pain
and not be able to help them.
So I wrote this letter to mymom and all the moms and dads
(23:17):
and loved ones who know someonebattling depression.
If you really want to help them, study letter closely, take it
into your heart, commit yourselfto the steps involved.
It may not seem like much andit may even be impossible at
times, but let me take your handand guide you into the mind of
your daughter, your son, yourhusband, wife, friend, sister.
Allow me to show you how youcan help them through their
(23:38):
darkness so they can emerge onthe other side lighter, happier,
free from that despair thatkeeps them shackled and living
the joyous life they truly wantand are fully capable of having.
I live on that other side nowthe dark days of the heavy
clouds no longer controloverwhelm, trap and suck me into
their pits of despair.
Now it's not about how I candie, it's about how I can live.
(24:01):
I wake up every morning with aplayful, lighthearted enthusiasm
bursting out of me, and I can'twait to face the day when I go
to sleep at night.
I want to hurry and fall asleepso I can wake up and do it all
over again.
I roll over and I see myboyfriend sleeping.
Now my husband and I feel anoverwhelming sensation of
belonging and appreciation.
We live in harmony him, me andhis 17-year-old daughter and we
(24:25):
sometimes laugh until ourbellies hurt and our jaws ache.
Our two dogs licking and pawing, jumping all over us, wanting
to be a part of the fun.
I have more than enough energyto go rock climbing, skydiving
and hiking all in one day.
I don't snap at people, I'm notannoyed easily and I have mental
clarity, awareness and presenceto spend quality time with my
family and loved ones.
(24:45):
I'm not an outsider anymore andI'm no longer living in my head
or inside my dark tunnel ofself-pity.
In fact, I look in the mirrorand absolutely adore the woman
staring back at me.
My mom and I have what we calllaugh attacks, where we laugh so
hard we cry and we don't evenknow why.
One of us might have saidsomething mildly funny and
that's enough to set us off intocrazy, contagious laughter that
(25:08):
spreads to my sisters andanyone within an earshot radius.
I feel bold and courageous andI welcome challenges.
Knowing if I can get through anentire decade of wanting to
kill myself that's 3,650 days.
I can get through anything.
What doesn't kill me only makesme stronger and damn, am I
strong.
If you look up strong inWikipedia, you'll see my picture
(25:30):
and I'll have a real, genuinesmile, not a fake upside down
frown.
If you want to help your lovedone get to this other side, this
letter's for you.
I know that everyone'sdifferent and depression is not
the same for every person andwhat works for one may not work
for another, but hopefully thiscan serve as a general guide to
help you into the mind of yourloved one.
I went back in time and wroteit from the point of view of
(25:53):
where I was in my darkest days.
I wish my mom had this letterback then, if not for me then at
least for her own sanity, and Iwish I had this letter too, so
I could soothe myself when I wasinconsolable.
If you're depressed, maybe thisletter can console you too, to
soften even 1% of your pain,because sometimes that's all it
takes to get through to the nextmoment.
(26:16):
Dear mom, I hate seeing that.
Look in your eyes the one thattells me your heart is broken
and, worse, that I've broken it.
It churns my stomach and,frankly, disgusts me to know I
am the reason you feel sohelpless.
I know you feel like a failure,like a bad mother.
Please let me assure you that'sthe furthest thing from the
(26:37):
truth.
I know you want to help me and,believe me, there's nothing
more I want than to be helped,except the times.
I'd rather just die.
There's nothing more.
I want to feel good again, ormaybe even for the first time.
I don't even remember what goodfeels like.
Did I ever feel good?
All I know now is darkness,heaviness and suffocation.
(26:58):
I can't breathe, mom.
It's like there's not enoughair, like someone turned down
the oxygen level on earth.
Except everyone else seems tobe breathing just fine.
I'm gasping for air, butthere's not enough to take in.
I'm dying slowly, painfully,withering away.
I want to get it over with anddie.
Already I'm tired of suffering,of feeling so bad all the time,
(27:21):
and I'm tired of watchingeveryone around me try to make
things better, only to makethings worse.
And then I feel me even more atfault for making everyone feel
so bad, and that makes me feellike an even bigger piece of
shit than I already am.
It's just a never-ending cycleof shitdom.
Remember when dad used to ripoff my band-aids?
I wanted him to go slow becauseI was scared and it hurt, but
(27:44):
he yanked them off in one quickpull.
I never liked it.
It always hurt, but it was overin two seconds, and that's why
I want to die.
It will hurt, but at least itwill be over quickly at least.
Then it will be done.
End of story.
No more pain.
I'm already hurting anyway.
Let's just get it over with.
But you know what, mom, despitehow incredibly freeing that
(28:04):
sound, there's a small but loudpart of me that inherently knows
it really won't be over, maybefor me who knows?
But certainly not for you, dador my sisters.
You will all have to live withmy choice for the rest of your
life, and I think that's whatkeeps me going.
I cause enough pain in life.
I don't want to cause any morein death.
You see, mom, you don't realizehow much you are helping me
(28:27):
simply by being alive.
Your life is the reason I amnot dead.
So how could that possibly makeyou a failure In my book?
That makes you a savior.
When I hold the sharp steelblade to my wrist, summoning up
the courage to slice through theskin, you're in the background
of my mind.
Knowing how devastated youwould be if I took my own
pitiful life makes me put awaythe knife and pretend just for
(28:47):
one more day to be happy.
You try all these things.
You tell me to look on thebright side, smile more, fake it
till I make it, do this and dothat and while none of it helps.
I know your intentions are pure, you really are trying to help
but it's not working.
And I see sometimes when youget frustrated and angry, you're
(29:09):
not so much angry at me, you'reangry at your own inability to
help, your own helplessness.
But you lash out at me becauseI'm the one standing there
reflecting your own helplessnessback at you.
I'm the one in front of you,still in my own suffering, as
proof of how helpless you trulyare, how futile your attempts,
despite everything you've tried,and I know you have tried and
tried and tried.
(29:29):
It must be tiring for you, mom.
You must be exhausted.
So let me tell you what wouldhelp, and I'm sorry if this
hurts you to hear, but I have tobe blunt and honest or else you
won't hear it and I won't besaved One enough with the fake
it till you make it crap.
I don't want to turn my frownupside down.
Do you honestly think a simpledirection change of the
(29:52):
curvature of my lips will solvethis deep critical problem?
If I had a knife stuck in mychest and a gaping six inch hole
pouring out blood a gallon aminute, would you suggest
putting one of those tiny roundband-aids on it.
To make everything all better.
That's exactly how it feels tobe told to look on the bright
side and think positive thoughts.
I have a knife in my chest.
(30:12):
I'm bleeding to death.
There is no bright side and noamount of positive thinking will
close this wound.
Two sad is different thandepressed.
Sad is when we lost Aunt Margieto cancer.
Depressed is when I've lostmyself.
Sad is wishing she was stillalive.
Depressed is wishing I was dead.
Like her too, I feel deadinside.
(30:34):
There's no one home.
Only someone must be home,because that someone is
exhausted, numb and aching allat the same time.
Three being depressed is likehaving a constant dense fog
follow you around 24-7.
Only it's not just surroundingyou, it's inside you, in your
brain.
I can't think clearly.
It's foggy in here.
(30:54):
I feel like I'm stuck insomeone else's eternal nightmare
.
And it's not just a mentalthing.
I feel it in my bones and if Ihad a soul I'd say it's
permeated my soul too.
But somewhere underneath, overaround, in or through the fog,
there's something else in me,mom.
I don't know who or what it is,but there's something.
There's someone screams at thetop of her lungs, begging,
(31:17):
shouting to be heard, to befreed.
She wants out of the fog, butit's too thick.
I can't see her.
I only have a sense she's there, but sometimes I don't hear her
at all and I think she's diedor moved on or decided.
Maybe I'm just not worthfighting for.
But she's in there, alwaysfighting and kicking and yelling
.
Sometimes I hate her.
I wish she would just shut up.
(31:38):
I think she's the one keepingme from pulling the trigger,
because if I go, she goes andshe doesn't want to die.
Her will to live is tenaciousand annoying.
Four, stop trying to fix me.
I am what I am.
I might be broken and shatteredinto a million different pieces
on the cold hard floor, butdon't try to sweep me up and
(31:59):
glue me back together.
Just let me be broken and messy.
Right now, your full acceptanceof my brokenness, of my pain,
may be the difference between ahealthy wrist and one that's
been plunged into with a knife.
Just let me be.
I feel everything deeply.
I'm too sensitive.
I don't know that I will evercome out of this.
(32:19):
From where I sit, the worldlooks bleak and the future
dimmer.
But you know otherwise.
You have hope, you feel joy,you see light, you actually
laugh, a real deep from yourbelly kind of laugh.
I cannot convince you to cometo my side to know what I know,
just as you can't convince me Tocome to your side and know what
you know.
So if you can hold on to whatyou know, and let me hold on to
(32:41):
what I know eventually yourknowing might permeate mine.
Eventually your light will seepinto the cracks of my knowing
and one day it might eradicateall the darkness and fog.
But not now.
I'm not ready.
If I was, that one day would betoday and I wouldn't be writing
this letter.
So, instead of trying to fix meor force a change, trust in the
(33:05):
power of acceptance, acceptingme as I am, especially at a time
when I don't accept myself, isthe most powerful gift you can
give me.
Just think about it.
All day, every day, I tellmyself what a failure I am, how
wrong and weak and stupid I am.
I feel broken, defective, leftbehind.
I feel unworthy, inadequate anda burden.
(33:28):
It doesn't help me to have youvalidate those feelings in me by
trying to change and fix them.
You're basically saying you'reright, you are defective, you
are a burden.
If I wasn't, you wouldn't tryso hard to fix me and I wouldn't
see that helplessness in youreyes.
I know it's really hard for youto watch your little girl in so
much pain and your motherlyinstincts are going haywire
(33:49):
trying to make it all better.
But I am telling you now if youcould resist your temptation to
quote unquote make it better,put aside your urgency to fix
things and just be here with mein my presence, in full
acceptance of where I am rightnow, I will get better, faster
than any other tools, tacticsand tricks you use to try to fix
(34:09):
me.
I know your mind is freakingout right now.
That can't be enough.
You're thinking there must besomething more you can do.
Just sit back and accept thatyour baby's on the verge of
suicide every day?
Hell, no, I get it, mom, andyou're right.
There is more you can do.
If you don't heed any of theabove and just do this one thing
I'm about to show you, you willstill help me tremendously and
(34:31):
I guarantee you, if you do thisconsistently, exactly the way I
show you, in time I will riseout of this depression.
In time I will get better.
In time your baby willrediscover her worth, learn new
ways to think and behave and shewill be happy again.
It is possible and here's how.
Five, two words, listen, repeat,that's it.
(34:55):
If I say to you, mom, nothing'sgoing right in my life, my
boyfriend dumped me, I don'thave any money for rent and I
feel like a failure, I want youto say back to me you're saying
nothing's going right in yourlife, your boyfriend dumped you,
you don't have any money forrent and you feel like a failure
.
Am I hearing you right?
Or you can paraphrase it bysaying you feel like a failure
(35:16):
because everything's going wrong, you don't have any rent money
and your boyfriend left right.
I want you to keep doing thisuntil I stop talking.
Keep listening to what I sayand keep repeating it back to me
.
Eventually, I will run out ofthings to say.
It might take five minutes, 15,or 30, but I will stop and I
will feel exponentially better.
(35:37):
How does this work?
This kind of active, reflectivelistening was developed by a
brilliant psychologist andfounder of the humanistic
approach to psychology, carlRogers.
The idea is that everyone longsto be listened to, acknowledged
and understood.
We all want to be heard andvalidated, even if what we have
to say is not true.
Our need to be understood ismore important than what we say.
(36:00):
Depressed people needunderstanding the most because
no one wants to listen to themor talk about it, and eventually
people fall away or distancethemselves, understandably.
So If I tell you I'm a uselessfailure and you spend the next
20 minutes trying to convince meotherwise while my eyes gloss
over, both of us will end upfrustrated and banging our heads
against the wall.
It will not be as effective asif you spent five seconds
(36:22):
repeating my feelings back to me.
In doing this, you validatedthat my feelings are important
and showed me that you careenough to listen and truly hear
me, even if you vehementlydisagree.
People always make sense intheir view of the world.
Instead of dismissing what theythink is crazy or untrue, try
to understand their view, evenif it's ridiculous.
(36:43):
When you start listening andrepeating what I say, I feel as
though you aren't dismissing meand that you're actually trying
to understand me.
Sometimes, just beingacknowledged and understood is
enough to catapult me into asofter feeling place, so I can
think more clearly and copebetter.
This seems too simple to workand you're surely having doubts,
but all I can say is try it.
(37:05):
My world is very dark, mom.
I'm here all alone and no onewants any part of it.
The only ones I can talk to whounderstand are other depressed
people, and we both know youcan't lift someone out of
quicksand if you're stuck in ityourself.
Will you please be the hand Ireach for to help me keep my
head above the surface?
I have no one else, not evenmyself.
(37:26):
Thank you, mom, for everythingyou do, and I'm sorry I'm such a
lousy killjoy of a daughter.
One day I will make it up toyou.
One day, with your help, maybewe can go for ice cream on the
beach, lay down a blanket insand and watch the sun set into
the ocean together, and maybeI'll turn to you happy tears in
my eyes and thank you for notjust giving me life but for
(37:48):
saving it.
I love you forever, yourdepressed daughter.
Gabriel Nathan (37:55):
If you or someone you know may be in
crisis or considering suicide,please call, text or chat the
suicide in crisis lifeline at988 Um, Tree, it's such a
beautiful piece and what I loveabout it?
(38:17):
I love a lot about it.
But it resonates so deeply withme because when I read it, and
when I hear you read it, I'mthinking about my father, who
just wants to fix everything,everything.
And that's the way he showslove and that's the way he feels
(38:40):
powerful If he's fixingsomething and if there's a
problem, he's on it.
And even when there's like asimple, tangible thing that he
can do like can you pick up themail while I'm gone, he is so
excited to do it because it's so.
My son has a problem and he'scoming to me and I can, I can do
this.
But when I was a kid and I was,um, severely anxious and
(39:05):
depressed, they didn't know whatto do and they couldn't fix it.
And, um, I I have a lot ofempathy for him, especially A
coming from a different countryand a different era where mental
(39:26):
health was just not a thing andwe didn't have the same
language for it and there wasjust no way to fix it and there
was just no way to fix it.
And your counsel to your mom,particularly the last item of
just listen, listen to me andthat will be enough.
(39:50):
It seems crazy that that willdo anything, but really it does
everything.
Tree Franklyn (40:00):
Yeah, I agree, and I think when we can just be
there for anyone, whetherthey're going through a mental
health challenge or just havinga moment, if we can just be
there and not try to changetheir mind or fix anything, then
we do validate their existence,basically, right, we validate
(40:25):
them for just being who they are.
And I also get from yourfather's perspective.
You know as much as we who arestruggling with mental health
feel like failures.
A parent, any parent, as youknow, being a parent, any parent
, just sort of feels like wow,what did I do?
Gabriel Nathan (40:42):
And what can I do?
How the hell do I deal withthis?
Tree Franklyn (40:47):
Yes, yeah, and so they feel somewhat of a failure
as well.
When parents see their childrensuffering, they're like did I
do something wrong?
What can I do better?
You know that sort of thing andthere are no answers.
So there's a struggle allaround.
Gabriel Nathan (41:01):
Did you share this with your mom?
When you wrote it?
Tree Franklyn (41:04):
I did.
Gabriel Nathan (41:05):
Like, right when you wrote it?
Tree Franklyn (41:07):
I shared it, not immediately.
I wasn't sure how she was goingto be able to handle it,
because I don't think that Iever told her that I held the
gun or a knife, that I was thatsuicidal.
She knew I was depressed and wetalked about being depressed.
I never told her about all thetimes that I tried to or wanted
to die.
I didn't tell her how bad itwas because I just saw her eyes
(41:30):
die when I would try to eventalk about being depressed.
And so when I finally did shareit with her, she said wow, I
had no idea.
Why didn't you tell me when youwere going through it and I
thought you couldn't even handlethe fact that I was depressed,
let alone suicidal, and whywould you put that on?
I didn't want to put that on toher back then, so I knew there
(41:53):
was nothing that she could do.
Gabriel Nathan (41:55):
What kind of conversations did it, or did it
open up conversations with her?
Did it generate moreunderstanding from her and a
deeper connection between thetwo of you?
Tree Franklyn (42:07):
It did, and she actually took that letter and
she sent it to some of herfamily members because she said
they need to hear it right.
She said they not only from thedepressed point of view, but
from the person who's trying tohelp the person who's their
loved one, who's depressed.
(42:28):
She sent it to a few people andI was surprised at who she sent
it to in my family, because Iwas like, wow, I had no idea
they were even struggling withthat, and so it did open up a
lot of conversation and theperson that she's one of the
people she sent it to I was veryclose to, and so it opened up a
conversation between thatperson and me and allowed us to
have much deeper conversationsand more meaningful
(42:51):
conversations than we have everhad in our lives.
Gabriel Nathan (42:55):
That's wonderful .
And that's like that reallydrives home the point, too,
about the power of first personstorytelling that, like, you put
something out into the worldand you have no idea what it's
going to do, you have no ideawhat kind of doors it's going to
open in your personal life andyour family life and for other
people as well.
(43:15):
And I I want to tell you, likeyou know, running the Recovery
Diaries site, I get these statsevery month about essays and how
essays are performing and who'slooking at what and how many
clicks, and all of that, allthat internet jazz.
And this piece is consistentlya top performingperforming essay
(43:37):
on the site.
And the way most people aregetting to it is they are
Googling the phrase I want tokill myself.
And the first stat that I gotabout it was they were typing in
I want to KMS and I was like Iwant to KMS, what the hell does
that mean?
And I was like, oh geez, that'swhat it means.
(43:59):
And at first it scared me, yeah,but then I was like this is
actually really great thatpeople are feeling.
That's not great that peopleare feeling that way, but it's
great that people are feelingthat way and that they're
expressing that into a searchengine and they're coming to
this because this is such ahopeful, helpful piece.
(44:24):
And I know that and I have feltsuicidal.
But if I were feeling suicidaland I were on the internet, this
is what I would want.
This is kind of like the liferaft that I would want to
receive, so I just want to thankyou for putting it out there
and for sharing it with us andwith our community.
Tree Franklyn (44:45):
Oh, and I want to thank you for having it.
I had it on my blog for a whileand you can see on your own
blog what are keywords that arepeople coming to your site and
it was exactly that.
They were like suicide letterto my or I want to kill myself
and I don't have the resourcesto help.
I'm just a single personblogging.
(45:07):
I don't have the resources tohelp and having that be on your
website Recovery Diaries becauseyou guys do fantastic work and
you have so many resources forpeople to reach out to and find
help, and I am so thrilled andhonored and blessed that you
(45:29):
have this article on your sitebecause you are the ones who are
doing really the work every day, all day, every day, and
advocating for mental health,and I'm so appreciative of that
and I'm so grateful that it's onyour website and not mine.
Gabriel Nathan (45:44):
Thank you.
Tree Franklyn (45:44):
I can't help as much as you guys do.
Gabriel Nathan (45:47):
Well, thank you for gifting it to us.
It's a really precious part ofour community.
So thank you.
And I guess the last questionthat I have for you is what has
changed in your life sincewriting this piece originally?
I mean, I know you, obviouslyyour boyfriend became your
(46:08):
husband and his daughter becamea few years older, but like what
else has cha nged in your life.
Tree Franklyn (46:18):
Since writing the piece?
Gabriel Nathan (46:20):
Yeah.
Tree Franklyn (46:21):
I'm more open, definitely more open.
I remember first publishing itand hitting that send or
whatever it was and posting itand I was scared.
I remember I felt like theworld just sort of like crumbled
down a little bit and I was soscared because it was the first
time I ever really talked aboutit in that depth.
(46:42):
And now I'm very open to talkabout it and I don't have any
fear about talking about any ofthose experiences and some
people, some of my coachingclients I go much deeper into
the actual experience of tryingto kill myself and it doesn't
affect me in a negative wayanymore.
It feels very open and free andit feels I feel like other
(47:08):
people need to hear it, and sothat's really.
What's changed in me is that Ican be a little more authentic
about those experiences and nothave to hide it and not have to
worry about what other peoplemight think of me.
Gabriel Nathan (47:18):
Yeah, I guess sometimes it's that first dip of
the toe in the pool that canfeel very trepidatious and then
after that we can kind of justsoak in it, coming from a
non-swimmer see, I'm so full ofshit, I fucking hate the water
so much.
But I mean it is like thatright, like you have to take
(47:39):
that first dip and then it getseasier.
Tree Franklyn (47:45):
Yeah.
Gabriel Nathan (47:47):
I'm so glad that you dipped your toe in that way
.
It's a pretty brave way to dipyour toe in the pool, Tree, with
that piece.
Tree Franklyn (47:55):
Oh, thank you.
It's all or nothing sometimeswith me.
Gabriel Nathan (47:58):
Yeah well, we'll take all for sure.
I just want to thank you somuch for being here and for
spending some time with me, andplease let people know where
they can find you online.
Tree Franklyn (48:12):
Yeah, they just go to my website,
treefranklyncom.
It's Franklyn, is spelled witha Y, f-r-a-n-k-l-y-n, and you
can find anything about me.
You can contact me through mywebsite.
Gabriel Nathan (48:25):
Awesome, and please do that.
And Tree also has another pieceon our website that you can
read as well and it's reallyabout kind of being born into
the trauma of war.
You know Tree alluded to herparents and that experience.
It's another beautiful pieceand maybe there'll be a third
(48:45):
someday on our site, so keepthat door open.
Tree Franklyn (48:50):
Yes, would love that.
Gabriel Nathan (48:51):
Thanks so much for joining us and take good
care.
Tree Franklyn (48:54):
Thank you, Gabe, appreciate you.
Gabriel Nathan (48:56):
And you.
Bye.
Thankyou again for joining us in
conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Very special thank you to TreeFranklyn for joining us here
today on Recovery Diaries inDepth.
Tree Franklin Franklyn is abestselling author, coach and
(49:17):
founder of the EmpathicAwakening Academy, which helps
sensitive, empathic peoplemaster their energy so they can
heal their past and create a newand empowered future.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(49:39):
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, abe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We are happy to have you hereon today's show.
We're going to be speaking toTree Franklyn.
She's a best-selling author, acoach and a founder of the
Empathic Awakening Academy.
She's going to be talking abouther heartfelt letter to her
(00:21):
mother.
"Mom, I want to kill myself.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast health,empowerment and change.
(01:05):
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Course, make sure to like,share and subscribe.
(01:35):
Tree Franklyn, welcome toRecovery Diaries in Depth.
It is so delightful to have youon the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Tree Franklyn (01:38):
Thank you, Gabe.
I'm so honored to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Gabriel Nathan (01:41):
Yeah, it's a pleasure and this is a new
podcast and it's so exciting tohave you on as one of our very
first guests and I don't know Ijust I view this as such an
exciting opportunity to A (01:53):
talk to people I like about a
subject that really interests me, which is mental health, so
this is like the greatest thingin the world for me.
I hope it's good for you tooand enjoyable.
Tree Franklyn (02:06):
It is.
I love talking about mentalhealth, even though sometimes
it's pretty depressing.
Gabriel Nathan (02:13):
But you're laughing.
Yes, we're off to a good startalready.
Tree Franklyn (02:17):
Yes, absolutely.
Gabriel Nathan (02:18):
You know, I think it was Charlie Chaplin who
said that we laugh so that wemay not weep.
Tree Franklyn (02:24):
Yeah, I love that .
Gabriel Nathan (02:25):
I mean, and it's true, because it is hard to
talk about and it is depressingat times, but it doesn't have to
be.
And I think that you know welose so much when we forget that
we are not just our mentalillness, right, we are whole
(02:50):
complex individuals with sensesof humor and silly things that
happen to us during the day, andyou know, we're all of these
things.
All of these things, and Iguess my first question for you
is, as an advocate and assomeone who talks very openly
(03:18):
about her mental health, do you,I guess?
What do you do to fill yourtank and to make sure that
you're not losing all thoseother bits and pieces of you
that may not be getting as muchattention day to day?
Tree Franklyn (03:28):
I'm really spiritual so I have to do things
that feed my spirit.
So whether it's just being innature, being around trees,
doing silly things like talkingto the trees and hugging trees,
and talking to bees and fliesand birds and having
conversations with them, itmakes me feel very connected to
(03:52):
this bigger world, to thisbigger something.
There's something bigger thanjust our humanity and our
emotions and our struggle.
So those things I really maketime for for, whether it's just
even five minutes sittingoutside and looking into the sky
.
What is your favorite tree tohug?
Do you have a favorite?
(04:13):
You know, surprisingly, I did an allergy
test uh four years ago and I'mpretty much allergic to all of
nature and trees and grass and.
.
.
Do you have to pop an allergypill before?
No, I just suck it up, I just hug them anyway.
Every once in a while I pop aZyrtec.
Gabriel Nathan (04:32):
There you go.
Tree Franklyn (04:32):
Just because I get too rashy, but I try not to
do that all the time and everyday.
But yeah, I'm pretty much.
For some reason my body isallergic to a lot of grass and
trees and shrubs and I just lovethem.
Anyway, I love cottonwood treesjust because where we go
fishing my favorite spots tofish they have a lot of
cottonwood trees out there.
(04:53):
But I don't care that I'mallergic to them.
They're my most highly allergictree.
Gabriel Nathan (04:59):
Oh my God, and where are you?
Geographically roughly in theworld?
Right now I'm in SouthernCalifornia.
Southern California, OK.
You said something aboutallergies.
I said do you pop a pill?
And you said, no, I just suckit up.
I was driving behind a vanyesterday that had a bumper
sticker that said "suck it upbuttercup was thinking about
(05:28):
mental health and I was thinkingabout suicide and about what we
know now that we didn't knowbefore or that we knew about but
didn't care.
You know that when someonewould be struggling with mental
health or they would sometimesget that refrain, suck it up,
suck it up buttercup.
And I was thinking about whysomeone would put that on the
(05:53):
back of their van and how it'sjust the total antithesis of
what we want to be teaching kids.
And I wanted to know if you hadany experience like that,
growing up with that kind oflike suck it up attitude, maybe
when you were in your earlierdays of struggling, or is it
(06:15):
something that you maybe toldyourself in your ea rly days ?
Tree Franklyn (06:21):
All the time I told myself that.
I told myself why can't youjust let it go?
Why do you have to takeeverything so deeply and why do
you have to feel so intenselywhere everybody else just sort
of brushes things off and theyseem okay?
And so I think a huge part ofdepression that actually makes
(06:41):
it worse is our attitude towardsourselves and saying that we
shouldn't be this way Life is.
You know, there are so many goodthings happening for us and why
are we so depressed and wecan't really pinpoint the reason
, and so we sort of blameourselves for it, where
everybody else seems to be ableto suck it up and be okay with
things and brush things off, andfor us we feel really deeply if
(07:03):
we're struggling with mentalhealth challenges and I think
that that shame and that feelingof I'm not doing well, I'm not
doing good enough, I'm not able,I'm not strong enough to make
myself feel better, that sort ofthing, and I think it's pretty
dangerous that suck it up,buttercup.
(07:24):
In some ways it can be prettydangerous in the context of when
someone is really depressed.
You can't just say suck it upand they're like okay, great,
I'm fine now.
Gabriel Nathan (07:34):
Well, it's like telling a person with anxiety
don't worry so much.
It's like, oh wow, why didn't Ithink of that?
Tree Franklyn (07:43):
Very smart, right ?
Yeah, there are times like Iwas in Vietnam, gosh, like 20
years ago, and we all rentedscooters me and two of my
friends.
We rented scooters and we wentinto town, we hired this person,
took us real deep into thisthird-world town and we got
(08:07):
stuck in a huge heavy rainstormand we had to ride our scooters
back.
It took about an hour in heavyrain and torrential downpour and
we were not prepared for it.
We didn't have rain jackets oranything, because earlier on the
day it was nice and warm andsunny and I was so scared and I
was so freezing and I was soscared and I was so freezing and
I was so cold and we all justhad to keep moving because our
(08:29):
scooters were running out of gas.
We just had to get back to thehotel and I told myself suck it
up, suck it up, suck it up, justgo, because I really wanted to
stop and cry.
I really just wanted to like,stop what's happening, it's just
too intense, but you can't, youhave to get back before you run
out of gas or before it getsreally dark, and so that advice
(08:51):
really helped me at that time incertain times where you just
have to keep moving.
You have to keep going, but forthe most part, yeah, suck it up
or don't worry so much.
It doesn't really help on aday-to-day basis.
Gabriel Nathan (09:05):
And I think the other thing, too, that you said
earlier also, that like, well,everyone else can do it,
everyone else is.
But that's bullshit too,because they're not.
Like we have this idea thatwe're not okay but everyone else
is, and the reality is that noone's okay, but everyone else is
(09:27):
, and the reality is that noone's okay.
Everyone is struggling,everyone is faking it, Everyone,
you know, doesn't know whetherto shit or go blind, for lack of
a better term.
Right, but we have this ideathat it's just us.
And where does that come from,do you think?
Tree Franklyn (09:44):
I think it comes from us not being open to
talking about it.
Like, you and I are talkingabout it and there are a lot of
websites and podcasts and socialmedia and things now and it's
becoming more and more open andokay for people to talk about it
.
Back in the day, when I was inmy 20s, obviously there was no
internet.
Nobody was talking about it.
(10:05):
Everybody was faking it.
So you look at everybody fakingit and you think everybody else
is doing well, but you're right, Everybody else was just pretty
much suffering as much as I was, but nobody talked about it
because it was a stigma it wasback then.
We thought it was a weakness aninherent weakness in ourselves,
and now I think there's so mucheducation about it and
(10:25):
information about it that we'rerealizing that it's not
necessarily a weakness.
It's.
Sometimes it's our biology,it's our chemistry, sometimes
it's just a certain adaptationskills that we need to learn.
It's just a whole combinationof things and we are realizing
that it's not a flaw in us.
We were not born flawed and nowwe're stuck like this for the
(10:49):
rest of our lives, whereas weused to think it was.
Gabriel Nathan (10:53):
Can you talk to me about those earlier days for
you, when you were firststruggling with mental health
and with suicidality?
How did that come Like?
How did that come about and howdid that manifest within you
and what was it like in yourfamily, you know?
(11:15):
Did you talk about it with yourfamily?
How did all of that really kindof begin for you?
Tree Franklyn (11:24):
Yeah, I think part of it is genetic and
there's a lot of studies nowthat's testing genetics and
where depression comes from.
And I think we do get some ofthat from our DNA, from our
ancestors and our parents andour grandparents, and I think it
does get passed down to us.
It doesn't mean that we'restuck with that because oh, it's
in our parents and ourgrandparents and I think it does
(11:44):
get passed down to us.
It doesn't mean that we'restuck with that because oh, it's
in our DNA and that's itforever.
We're screwed.
But it just means that we canat least sort of forgive
ourselves for having taken onsomeone else's emotions and pain
.
My father, I think he nevertalked about emotions at all, so
(12:05):
mental health wasn't even athing in you know.
It wasn't even a phrase in hismouth that ever came out in his
emotions, where he just sort ofshoved them down with alcohol.
And he suffered from verysevere PTSD from the Vietnam War
, which is where I sprang from.
My dad was in the military,american white in the military,
(12:26):
went and met my mom, who'sVietnamese, in the Vietnam War
and then had some babies andbrought us back to the US and he
never got help for his PTSDfrom the things that he saw.
He never talked about the warwith us.
We knew, everybody knew that hedrowned his sorrows in alcohol.
Nobody ever talked about it.
It was the big elephant in theroom growing up, and my mom
(12:48):
growing up she was an orphan andher parents had died when she
was young, as a kid, as ateenager, and so she sort of was
raised by her teenage sisteralso, and I believe that she
suffered a lot of mental healthproblems as well, and nobody,
neither of them, got help for it, Neither of them acknowledged
(13:09):
it for themselves, and so,raising a child, they were not
able to have those conversationswith me, and so I sort of had
to flounder around and figure itout on my own, and they of
course never showed theirsadness or their depression or
their anxiety.
So I just thought I was crazy.
Gabriel Nathan (13:34):
And that's a heavy burden to carry around, to
think that and then to not beable to express it to the people
closest to you.
Tree Franklyn (13:45):
Yeah.
Gabriel Nathan (13:46):
Did your siblings struggle with mental
health too?
Tree Franklyn (13:49):
I think so in their own way not specifically
in the same way that I did and Ithink that they all had their
own way of handling it.
It was very different.
My middle sister's veryextroverted and so she got a lot
of help not by talking about itbut just by being very social
and having a lot of friends anddoing a lot of things and
(14:09):
keeping very busy.
And I'm very introverted and Itake things in internally a lot,
and so I didn't talk to a lotof people, I just sort of
internally had conversationswith myself, and then my other
sister had conversations withmyself, and then my other sister
.
I feel that we all strugglewith it in our own ways and I
(14:30):
feel that we all somewhat stilldo struggle with it in our own
ways.
Everybody not just me or mysisters and my parents, but I
think everybody struggles withmental health.
They find their own way to dealwith it.
Gabriel Nathan (14:44):
Yeah, either healthy or not.
Tree Franklyn (14:48):
Absolutely yeah.
Gabriel Nathan (14:49):
Yeah, Can you talk a little bit about how and
why you first really dipped yourtoe into putting yourself out
there in terms of mental healthadvocacy?
Why and what was your firstforay into kind of being a
(15:09):
little bit more public-like?
And then I have a follow-up.
But I think I've asked you toomuch, so I'll just hold back for
a minute.
Tree Franklyn (15:18):
It's all good.
I started a side blog like aside hustle.
I started a side blog like aside hustle.
I started a blog online and Iwas just writing about things in
general.
You know, when you start a blog, you don't really know what the
heck your niche is or narrowdown or all of that stuff.
You just write for the sake ofwriting.
And I wrote, dear Mom, on my ownblog and it was just very
(15:44):
cathartic for me to write that.
It was really more for me thananybody else and I was feeling
real happy at that certain timein my life and I wanted people
to know that just because youare in this way, it doesn't mean
that you have to be in that wayforever and that there is light
(16:06):
at the end of the tunnel.
And my blog, somehow all of mywritings, tend to go towards
emotions and emotional thingsand healing, and so I got a lot
of people who signed on mysubscribers and they always
asked me you know, how can yoube so happy and what did you do?
And so I was like you know whatI think people really need to
(16:26):
hear this that when I was reallydown and depressed, I thought
that was it.
Like there's no, that's it.
There's no more future for me,this is the way it's going to be
forever, and there's no lightat the end of the tunnel.
I'm just cursed for this and Iprobably deserve it, and blah,
blah, blah.
And so I didn't want anyone elseto feel that way, and it took
(16:47):
me a long time to climb out ofit, and I think a lot of people
nowadays are looking for thatmagic pill, whether it's a
physical pill that they take oran article that they read or a
new book that they read, andthey think it's going to be.
Everything's going to behunky-dory and wonderful from
then on.
But I want people to know thatsometimes it's a process,
sometimes it's a long journey,but regardless of whether it's a
(17:09):
long journey or a short journey, for them it's still a journey
and there is light at the end ofthe tunnel.
That's why I started writingabout it.
That's why I love talking aboutit now.
Gabriel Nathan (17:21):
I can't believe that was your first.
That was really your firstpublic piece, "ear Mom.
Tree Franklyn (17:26):
Yes, yes.
To that level and that depth.
Gabriel Nathan (17:31):
Yeah, and I think you know what you were
saying about feeling that way,that this is what I'm cursed to
be forever.
This is just how it's going tobe.
This is my story that I'mdepressed, I'm feeling suicidal,
and that's just what it's goingto be.
You know, that's suicide rightthere.
(17:54):
It's helpless and hopeless, andwe combine that and lock that
in and that's a really, reallydangerous place to be, and so I
think it's so lovely that onceyou were out of that, that, y ou
felt confident enough and, like, stable enough and well enough
(18:16):
to be able to communicate topeople, stable enough and well
enough to be able to communicateto people.
No, you know, that's not,that's not your story.
You're not doomed, you canclimb out of that.
Um, because I think it's onething to tell people you got
this, or you're not alone, oryou can do this, but you're
(18:36):
actually showing them, um, youknow, you're providing this
personal story that really showspeople you actually can get
better.
It's a really beautiful thing.
Tree Franklyn (18:49):
Yeah, and it's also because I heard when I was
depressed you know, peoplesaying exactly what you just
said, like you'll get over it,you'll get through this and all
of those things.
But they're very flippantremarks.
When you have someone who'sactually been through it and
they sit with you and theyactually say, yes, you will get
through it, and you know thatthey know what you're talking
(19:11):
about, they've been through itrather than just a friend or a
partner saying, oh, you'll getthrough it, it's just a
difficult time, you'll getthrough it.
It makes you feel like you'rebeing dismissed when people say
that, right, but when peopleactually really do understand
what you're going through andcan actually sit there in that
pain with you and allow you tobe in that pain and not try to
(19:33):
fix it and not try to help you,but just sort of be there with
you, then it does give you thatsense of hope and it gives you
that feeling that you're notalone.
Gabriel Nathan (19:44):
Well, let's share that sense of hope with
our listeners.
If you would be so gracious toplease read your essay, we would
love to hear it in your voice.
It is called "Dear Mom, I Wantto Kill Myself.
Tree Franklyn (19:58):
Okay.
In my early 20s I was diagnosedwith manic depression, now
commonly known as bipolardisorder.
I had suicidal thoughts everyday for nearly a decade,
starting from my late teens.
I wanted to die.
Every night I would fall asleepto a tear-soaked pillow,
begging a cruel, invisible Godto have the mercy to let the bed
(20:20):
swallow me up so I coulddisappear.
Cruel, invisible God to havethe mercy to let the bed swallow
me up so I could disappear.
And every morning I would wakeup with strands of clumped,
tear-dried hair, furious that Iwas still alive.
On multiple occasions I've helda knife to my wrist and neck and
a gun to my mouth and temple,and on every occasion I was too
scared to follow through.
Leak loser.
Can't even kill yourself.
(20:41):
Can't go on living and youcan't go on dying.
You're pitiful, useless.
One quick little push throughthe flesh, one tiny little
squeeze of the trigger that'sall it takes, and yet you can't
even get that right.
The world would be a betterplace without you in it taking
up so much worthless space.
You're a disgrace.
These are the thoughts that wentthrough my head every day, and
(21:03):
that was my reality.
I was living in a black hole,its powerful gravity sucking me
in pulling me down.
I desperately tried to claw myway out of it, but it was a
constant struggle to hold on, tostay alive.
Just one more day.
And the worst part no oneunderstood.
In a world of six billionpeople, I was alone.
Everyone else seemed happy andunaffected, light and carefree,
(21:27):
and I was the opposite.
I felt everything, especiallythe darker, heavier emotions.
Little things made me so sadand I cried all the time.
Somehow I missed the memo onhow to be happy, or maybe I just
wasn't good enough to deservewhat everyone else seemed to
have.
The ones who were close to metried to help, but their
attempts at care always made mefeel worse.
I remember the utterly helplesslook in my mom's eyes one day
(21:51):
when I was visiting her in StLouis.
We were in her kitchen and shewas cooking bacon over the stove
, flipping each wavy piece witha fork as they sizzled in the
oil.
She stopped between pieces,turned and asked me for the
hundredth time why I was so sad.
I was sitting at the tablealone and I looked up at her,
wanting desperately to have ananswer for her, but I didn't.
(22:12):
There was no reason.
I couldn't point my finger toanything and say this is it.
This is the reason I'mdepressed.
It was just a generalall-around feeling of
hopelessness and worthlessness,of not belonging.
And sad was such an insultingunderstatement to how I really
felt.
When I tried to explain all thatto her, her eyes died and I saw
(22:34):
the dark clouds that surroundedme starting to envelop her.
I felt her helplessness inaddition to mine.
It's one thing to be depressed.
It's another to see mysuffering spread to someone I
love dearly.
That was when I learned to puton a fake smile to pretend that
things were okay, when deep downI wanted nothing more than to
die.
I never wanted to see that lookin my mom's eyes again, and I
(22:55):
never did.
But years later I discoveredthat she had learned how to put
on a fake smile too.
When I pretended thateverything was okay, she
pretended to believe me becauseshe didn't know what else to do.
And the worst thing for a parentis to see their child in pain
and not be able to help them.
So I wrote this letter to mymom and all the moms and dads
(23:17):
and loved ones who know someonebattling depression.
If you really want to help them, study letter closely, take it
into your heart, commit yourselfto the steps involved.
It may not seem like much andit may even be impossible at
times, but let me take your handand guide you into the mind of
your daughter, your son, yourhusband, wife, friend, sister.
Allow me to show you how youcan help them through their
(23:38):
darkness so they can emerge onthe other side lighter, happier,
free from that despair thatkeeps them shackled and living
the joyous life they truly wantand are fully capable of having.
I live on that other side nowthe dark days of the heavy
clouds no longer controloverwhelm, trap and suck me into
their pits of despair.
Now it's not about how I candie, it's about how I can live.
(24:01):
I wake up every morning with aplayful, lighthearted enthusiasm
bursting out of me, and I can'twait to face the day when I go
to sleep at night.
I want to hurry and fall asleepso I can wake up and do it all
over again.
I roll over and I see myboyfriend sleeping.
Now my husband and I feel anoverwhelming sensation of
belonging and appreciation.
We live in harmony him, me andhis 17-year-old daughter and we
(24:25):
sometimes laugh until ourbellies hurt and our jaws ache.
Our two dogs licking and pawing, jumping all over us, wanting
to be a part of the fun.
I have more than enough energyto go rock climbing, skydiving
and hiking all in one day.
I don't snap at people, I'm notannoyed easily and I have mental
clarity, awareness and presenceto spend quality time with my
family and loved ones.
(24:45):
I'm not an outsider anymore andI'm no longer living in my head
or inside my dark tunnel ofself-pity.
In fact, I look in the mirrorand absolutely adore the woman
staring back at me.
My mom and I have what we calllaugh attacks, where we laugh so
hard we cry and we don't evenknow why.
One of us might have saidsomething mildly funny and
that's enough to set us off intocrazy, contagious laughter that
(25:08):
spreads to my sisters andanyone within an earshot radius.
I feel bold and courageous andI welcome challenges.
Knowing if I can get through anentire decade of wanting to
kill myself that's 3,650 days.
I can get through anything.
What doesn't kill me only makesme stronger and damn, am I
strong.
If you look up strong inWikipedia, you'll see my picture
(25:30):
and I'll have a real, genuinesmile, not a fake upside down
frown.
If you want to help your lovedone get to this other side, this
letter's for you.
I know that everyone'sdifferent and depression is not
the same for every person andwhat works for one may not work
for another, but hopefully thiscan serve as a general guide to
help you into the mind of yourloved one.
I went back in time and wroteit from the point of view of
(25:53):
where I was in my darkest days.
I wish my mom had this letterback then, if not for me then at
least for her own sanity, and Iwish I had this letter too, so
I could soothe myself when I wasinconsolable.
If you're depressed, maybe thisletter can console you too, to
soften even 1% of your pain,because sometimes that's all it
takes to get through to the nextmoment.
(26:16):
Dear mom, I hate seeing that.
Look in your eyes the one thattells me your heart is broken
and, worse, that I've broken it.
It churns my stomach and,frankly, disgusts me to know I
am the reason you feel sohelpless.
I know you feel like a failure,like a bad mother.
Please let me assure you that'sthe furthest thing from the
(26:37):
truth.
I know you want to help me and,believe me, there's nothing
more I want than to be helped,except the times.
I'd rather just die.
There's nothing more.
I want to feel good again, ormaybe even for the first time.
I don't even remember what goodfeels like.
Did I ever feel good?
All I know now is darkness,heaviness and suffocation.
(26:58):
I can't breathe, mom.
It's like there's not enoughair, like someone turned down
the oxygen level on earth.
Except everyone else seems tobe breathing just fine.
I'm gasping for air, butthere's not enough to take in.
I'm dying slowly, painfully,withering away.
I want to get it over with anddie.
Already I'm tired of suffering,of feeling so bad all the time,
(27:21):
and I'm tired of watchingeveryone around me try to make
things better, only to makethings worse.
And then I feel me even more atfault for making everyone feel
so bad, and that makes me feellike an even bigger piece of
shit than I already am.
It's just a never-ending cycleof shitdom.
Remember when dad used to ripoff my band-aids?
I wanted him to go slow becauseI was scared and it hurt, but
(27:44):
he yanked them off in one quickpull.
I never liked it.
It always hurt, but it was overin two seconds, and that's why
I want to die.
It will hurt, but at least itwill be over quickly at least.
Then it will be done.
End of story.
No more pain.
I'm already hurting anyway.
Let's just get it over with.
But you know what, mom, despitehow incredibly freeing that
(28:04):
sound, there's a small but loudpart of me that inherently knows
it really won't be over, maybefor me who knows?
But certainly not for you, dador my sisters.
You will all have to live withmy choice for the rest of your
life, and I think that's whatkeeps me going.
I cause enough pain in life.
I don't want to cause any morein death.
You see, mom, you don't realizehow much you are helping me
(28:27):
simply by being alive.
Your life is the reason I amnot dead.
So how could that possibly makeyou a failure In my book?
That makes you a savior.
When I hold the sharp steelblade to my wrist, summoning up
the courage to slice through theskin, you're in the background
of my mind.
Knowing how devastated youwould be if I took my own
pitiful life makes me put awaythe knife and pretend just for
(28:47):
one more day to be happy.
You try all these things.
You tell me to look on thebright side, smile more, fake it
till I make it, do this and dothat and while none of it helps.
I know your intentions are pure, you really are trying to help
but it's not working.
And I see sometimes when youget frustrated and angry, you're
(29:09):
not so much angry at me, you'reangry at your own inability to
help, your own helplessness.
But you lash out at me becauseI'm the one standing there
reflecting your own helplessnessback at you.
I'm the one in front of you,still in my own suffering, as
proof of how helpless you trulyare, how futile your attempts,
despite everything you've tried,and I know you have tried and
tried and tried.
(29:29):
It must be tiring for you, mom.
You must be exhausted.
So let me tell you what wouldhelp, and I'm sorry if this
hurts you to hear, but I have tobe blunt and honest or else you
won't hear it and I won't besaved One enough with the fake
it till you make it crap.
I don't want to turn my frownupside down.
Do you honestly think a simpledirection change of the
(29:52):
curvature of my lips will solvethis deep critical problem?
If I had a knife stuck in mychest and a gaping six inch hole
pouring out blood a gallon aminute, would you suggest
putting one of those tiny roundband-aids on it.
To make everything all better.
That's exactly how it feels tobe told to look on the bright
side and think positive thoughts.
I have a knife in my chest.
(30:12):
I'm bleeding to death.
There is no bright side and noamount of positive thinking will
close this wound.
Two sad is different thandepressed.
Sad is when we lost Aunt Margieto cancer.
Depressed is when I've lostmyself.
Sad is wishing she was stillalive.
Depressed is wishing I was dead.
Like her too, I feel deadinside.
(30:34):
There's no one home.
Only someone must be home,because that someone is
exhausted, numb and aching allat the same time.
Three being depressed is likehaving a constant dense fog
follow you around 24-7.
Only it's not just surroundingyou, it's inside you, in your
brain.
I can't think clearly.
It's foggy in here.
(30:54):
I feel like I'm stuck insomeone else's eternal nightmare
.
And it's not just a mentalthing.
I feel it in my bones and if Ihad a soul I'd say it's
permeated my soul too.
But somewhere underneath, overaround, in or through the fog,
there's something else in me,mom.
I don't know who or what it is,but there's something.
There's someone screams at thetop of her lungs, begging,
(31:17):
shouting to be heard, to befreed.
She wants out of the fog, butit's too thick.
I can't see her.
I only have a sense she's there, but sometimes I don't hear her
at all and I think she's diedor moved on or decided.
Maybe I'm just not worthfighting for.
But she's in there, alwaysfighting and kicking and yelling
.
Sometimes I hate her.
I wish she would just shut up.
(31:38):
I think she's the one keepingme from pulling the trigger,
because if I go, she goes andshe doesn't want to die.
Her will to live is tenaciousand annoying.
Four, stop trying to fix me.
I am what I am.
I might be broken and shatteredinto a million different pieces
on the cold hard floor, butdon't try to sweep me up and
(31:59):
glue me back together.
Just let me be broken and messy.
Right now, your full acceptanceof my brokenness, of my pain,
may be the difference between ahealthy wrist and one that's
been plunged into with a knife.
Just let me be.
I feel everything deeply.
I'm too sensitive.
I don't know that I will evercome out of this.
(32:19):
From where I sit, the worldlooks bleak and the future
dimmer.
But you know otherwise.
You have hope, you feel joy,you see light, you actually
laugh, a real deep from yourbelly kind of laugh.
I cannot convince you to cometo my side to know what I know,
just as you can't convince me Tocome to your side and know what
you know.
So if you can hold on to whatyou know, and let me hold on to
(32:41):
what I know eventually yourknowing might permeate mine.
Eventually your light will seepinto the cracks of my knowing
and one day it might eradicateall the darkness and fog.
But not now.
I'm not ready.
If I was, that one day would betoday and I wouldn't be writing
this letter.
So, instead of trying to fix meor force a change, trust in the
(33:05):
power of acceptance, acceptingme as I am, especially at a time
when I don't accept myself, isthe most powerful gift you can
give me.
Just think about it.
All day, every day, I tellmyself what a failure I am, how
wrong and weak and stupid I am.
I feel broken, defective, leftbehind.
I feel unworthy, inadequate anda burden.
(33:28):
It doesn't help me to have youvalidate those feelings in me by
trying to change and fix them.
You're basically saying you'reright, you are defective, you
are a burden.
If I wasn't, you wouldn't tryso hard to fix me and I wouldn't
see that helplessness in youreyes.
I know it's really hard for youto watch your little girl in so
much pain and your motherlyinstincts are going haywire
(33:49):
trying to make it all better.
But I am telling you now if youcould resist your temptation to
quote unquote make it better,put aside your urgency to fix
things and just be here with mein my presence, in full
acceptance of where I am rightnow, I will get better, faster
than any other tools, tacticsand tricks you use to try to fix
(34:09):
me.
I know your mind is freakingout right now.
That can't be enough.
You're thinking there must besomething more you can do.
Just sit back and accept thatyour baby's on the verge of
suicide every day?
Hell, no, I get it, mom, andyou're right.
There is more you can do.
If you don't heed any of theabove and just do this one thing
I'm about to show you, you willstill help me tremendously and
(34:31):
I guarantee you, if you do thisconsistently, exactly the way I
show you, in time I will riseout of this depression.
In time I will get better.
In time your baby willrediscover her worth, learn new
ways to think and behave and shewill be happy again.
It is possible and here's how.
Five, two words, listen, repeat,that's it.
(34:55):
If I say to you, mom, nothing'sgoing right in my life, my
boyfriend dumped me, I don'thave any money for rent and I
feel like a failure, I want youto say back to me you're saying
nothing's going right in yourlife, your boyfriend dumped you,
you don't have any money forrent and you feel like a failure
.
Am I hearing you right?
Or you can paraphrase it bysaying you feel like a failure
(35:16):
because everything's going wrong, you don't have any rent money
and your boyfriend left right.
I want you to keep doing thisuntil I stop talking.
Keep listening to what I sayand keep repeating it back to me
.
Eventually, I will run out ofthings to say.
It might take five minutes, 15,or 30, but I will stop and I
will feel exponentially better.
(35:37):
How does this work?
This kind of active, reflectivelistening was developed by a
brilliant psychologist andfounder of the humanistic
approach to psychology, carlRogers.
The idea is that everyone longsto be listened to, acknowledged
and understood.
We all want to be heard andvalidated, even if what we have
to say is not true.
Our need to be understood ismore important than what we say.
(36:00):
Depressed people needunderstanding the most because
no one wants to listen to themor talk about it, and eventually
people fall away or distancethemselves, understandably.
So If I tell you I'm a uselessfailure and you spend the next
20 minutes trying to convince meotherwise while my eyes gloss
over, both of us will end upfrustrated and banging our heads
against the wall.
It will not be as effective asif you spent five seconds
(36:22):
repeating my feelings back to me.
In doing this, you validatedthat my feelings are important
and showed me that you careenough to listen and truly hear
me, even if you vehementlydisagree.
People always make sense intheir view of the world.
Instead of dismissing what theythink is crazy or untrue, try
to understand their view, evenif it's ridiculous.
(36:43):
When you start listening andrepeating what I say, I feel as
though you aren't dismissing meand that you're actually trying
to understand me.
Sometimes, just beingacknowledged and understood is
enough to catapult me into asofter feeling place, so I can
think more clearly and copebetter.
This seems too simple to workand you're surely having doubts,
but all I can say is try it.
(37:05):
My world is very dark, mom.
I'm here all alone and no onewants any part of it.
The only ones I can talk to whounderstand are other depressed
people, and we both know youcan't lift someone out of
quicksand if you're stuck in ityourself.
Will you please be the hand Ireach for to help me keep my
head above the surface?
I have no one else, not evenmyself.
(37:26):
Thank you, mom, for everythingyou do, and I'm sorry I'm such a
lousy killjoy of a daughter.
One day I will make it up toyou.
One day, with your help, maybewe can go for ice cream on the
beach, lay down a blanket insand and watch the sun set into
the ocean together, and maybeI'll turn to you happy tears in
my eyes and thank you for notjust giving me life but for
(37:48):
saving it.
I love you forever, yourdepressed daughter.
Gabriel Nathan (37:55):
If you or someone you know may be in
crisis or considering suicide,please call, text or chat the
suicide in crisis lifeline at988 Um, Tree, it's such a
beautiful piece and what I loveabout it?
(38:17):
I love a lot about it.
But it resonates so deeply withme because when I read it, and
when I hear you read it, I'mthinking about my father, who
just wants to fix everything,everything.
And that's the way he showslove and that's the way he feels
(38:40):
powerful If he's fixingsomething and if there's a
problem, he's on it.
And even when there's like asimple, tangible thing that he
can do like can you pick up themail while I'm gone, he is so
excited to do it because it's so.
My son has a problem and he'scoming to me and I can, I can do
this.
But when I was a kid and I was,um, severely anxious and
(39:05):
depressed, they didn't know whatto do and they couldn't fix it.
And, um, I I have a lot ofempathy for him, especially A
coming from a different countryand a different era where mental
(39:26):
health was just not a thing andwe didn't have the same
language for it and there wasjust no way to fix it and there
was just no way to fix it.
And your counsel to your mom,particularly the last item of
just listen, listen to me andthat will be enough.
(39:50):
It seems crazy that that willdo anything, but really it does
everything.
Tree Franklyn (40:00):
Yeah, I agree, and I think when we can just be
there for anyone, whetherthey're going through a mental
health challenge or just havinga moment, if we can just be
there and not try to changetheir mind or fix anything, then
we do validate their existence,basically, right, we validate
(40:25):
them for just being who they are.
And I also get from yourfather's perspective.
You know as much as we who arestruggling with mental health
feel like failures.
A parent, any parent, as youknow, being a parent, any parent
, just sort of feels like wow,what did I do?
Gabriel Nathan (40:42):
And what can I do?
How the hell do I deal withthis?
Tree Franklyn (40:47):
Yes, yeah, and so they feel somewhat of a failure
as well.
When parents see their childrensuffering, they're like did I
do something wrong?
What can I do better?
You know that sort of thing andthere are no answers.
So there's a struggle allaround.
Gabriel Nathan (41:01):
Did you share this with your mom?
When you wrote it?
Tree Franklyn (41:04):
I did.
Gabriel Nathan (41:05):
Like, right when you wrote it?
Tree Franklyn (41:07):
I shared it, not immediately.
I wasn't sure how she was goingto be able to handle it,
because I don't think that Iever told her that I held the
gun or a knife, that I was thatsuicidal.
She knew I was depressed and wetalked about being depressed.
I never told her about all thetimes that I tried to or wanted
to die.
I didn't tell her how bad itwas because I just saw her eyes
(41:30):
die when I would try to eventalk about being depressed.
And so when I finally did shareit with her, she said wow, I
had no idea.
Why didn't you tell me when youwere going through it and I
thought you couldn't even handlethe fact that I was depressed,
let alone suicidal, and whywould you put that on?
I didn't want to put that on toher back then, so I knew there
(41:53):
was nothing that she could do.
Gabriel Nathan (41:55):
What kind of conversations did it, or did it
open up conversations with her?
Did it generate moreunderstanding from her and a
deeper connection between thetwo of you?
Tree Franklyn (42:07):
It did, and she actually took that letter and
she sent it to some of herfamily members because she said
they need to hear it right.
She said they not only from thedepressed point of view, but
from the person who's trying tohelp the person who's their
loved one, who's depressed.
(42:28):
She sent it to a few people andI was surprised at who she sent
it to in my family, because Iwas like, wow, I had no idea
they were even struggling withthat, and so it did open up a
lot of conversation and theperson that she's one of the
people she sent it to I was veryclose to, and so it opened up a
conversation between thatperson and me and allowed us to
have much deeper conversationsand more meaningful
(42:51):
conversations than we have everhad in our lives.
Gabriel Nathan (42:55):
That's wonderful .
And that's like that reallydrives home the point, too,
about the power of first personstorytelling that, like, you put
something out into the worldand you have no idea what it's
going to do, you have no ideawhat kind of doors it's going to
open in your personal life andyour family life and for other
people as well.
(43:15):
And I I want to tell you, likeyou know, running the Recovery
Diaries site, I get these statsevery month about essays and how
essays are performing and who'slooking at what and how many
clicks, and all of that, allthat internet jazz.
And this piece is consistentlya top performingperforming essay
(43:37):
on the site.
And the way most people aregetting to it is they are
Googling the phrase I want tokill myself.
And the first stat that I gotabout it was they were typing in
I want to KMS and I was like Iwant to KMS, what the hell does
that mean?
And I was like, oh geez, that'swhat it means.
(43:59):
And at first it scared me, yeah,but then I was like this is
actually really great thatpeople are feeling.
That's not great that peopleare feeling that way, but it's
great that people are feelingthat way and that they're
expressing that into a searchengine and they're coming to
this because this is such ahopeful, helpful piece.
(44:24):
And I know that and I have feltsuicidal.
But if I were feeling suicidaland I were on the internet, this
is what I would want.
This is kind of like the liferaft that I would want to
receive, so I just want to thankyou for putting it out there
and for sharing it with us andwith our community.
Tree Franklyn (44:45):
Oh, and I want to thank you for having it.
I had it on my blog for a whileand you can see on your own
blog what are keywords that arepeople coming to your site and
it was exactly that.
They were like suicide letterto my or I want to kill myself
and I don't have the resourcesto help.
I'm just a single personblogging.
(45:07):
I don't have the resources tohelp and having that be on your
website Recovery Diaries becauseyou guys do fantastic work and
you have so many resources forpeople to reach out to and find
help, and I am so thrilled andhonored and blessed that you
(45:29):
have this article on your sitebecause you are the ones who are
doing really the work every day, all day, every day, and
advocating for mental health,and I'm so appreciative of that
and I'm so grateful that it's onyour website and not mine.
Gabriel Nathan (45:44):
Thank you.
Tree Franklyn (45:44):
I can't help as much as you guys do.
Gabriel Nathan (45:47):
Well, thank you for gifting it to us.
It's a really precious part ofour community.
So thank you.
And I guess the last questionthat I have for you is what has
changed in your life sincewriting this piece originally?
I mean, I know you, obviouslyyour boyfriend became your
(46:08):
husband and his daughter becamea few years older, but like what
else has cha nged in your life.
Tree Franklyn (46:18):
Since writing the piece?
Gabriel Nathan (46:20):
Yeah.
Tree Franklyn (46:21):
I'm more open, definitely more open.
I remember first publishing itand hitting that send or
whatever it was and posting itand I was scared.
I remember I felt like theworld just sort of like crumbled
down a little bit and I was soscared because it was the first
time I ever really talked aboutit in that depth.
(46:42):
And now I'm very open to talkabout it and I don't have any
fear about talking about any ofthose experiences and some
people, some of my coachingclients I go much deeper into
the actual experience of tryingto kill myself and it doesn't
affect me in a negative wayanymore.
It feels very open and free andit feels I feel like other
(47:08):
people need to hear it, and sothat's really.
What's changed in me is that Ican be a little more authentic
about those experiences and nothave to hide it and not have to
worry about what other peoplemight think of me.
Gabriel Nathan (47:18):
Yeah, I guess sometimes it's that first dip of
the toe in the pool that canfeel very trepidatious and then
after that we can kind of justsoak in it, coming from a
non-swimmer see, I'm so full ofshit, I fucking hate the water
so much.
But I mean it is like thatright, like you have to take
(47:39):
that first dip and then it getseasier.
Tree Franklyn (47:45):
Yeah.
Gabriel Nathan (47:47):
I'm so glad that you dipped your toe in that way
.
It's a pretty brave way to dipyour toe in the pool, Tree, with
that piece.
Tree Franklyn (47:55):
Oh, thank you.
It's all or nothing sometimeswith me.
Gabriel Nathan (47:58):
Yeah well, we'll take all for sure.
I just want to thank you somuch for being here and for
spending some time with me, andplease let people know where
they can find you online.
Tree Franklyn (48:12):
Yeah, they just go to my website,
treefranklyncom.
It's Franklyn, is spelled witha Y, f-r-a-n-k-l-y-n, and you
can find anything about me.
You can contact me through mywebsite.
Gabriel Nathan (48:25):
Awesome, and please do that.
And Tree also has another pieceon our website that you can
read as well and it's reallyabout kind of being born into
the trauma of war.
You know Tree alluded to herparents and that experience.
It's another beautiful pieceand maybe there'll be a third
(48:45):
someday on our site, so keepthat door open.
Tree Franklyn (48:50):
Yes, would love that.
Gabriel Nathan (48:51):
Thanks so much for joining us and take good
care.
Tree Franklyn (48:54):
Thank you, Gabe, appreciate you.
Gabriel Nathan (48:56):
And you.
Bye.
Thankyou again for joining us in
conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Very special thank you to TreeFranklyn for joining us here
today on Recovery Diaries inDepth.
Tree Franklin Franklyn is abestselling author, coach and
(49:17):
founder of the EmpathicAwakening Academy, which helps
sensitive, empathic peoplemaster their energy so they can
heal their past and create a newand empowered future.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(49:39):
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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