"Love is what gives us the strength to balance the anger."
It seems improbable that a human being who has shouldered the weight of so much trauma, so many secrets, so much shame could come to this conclusion, but this is part of what makes Dr. Deborah Derrickson Kossmann such a powerful writer, and such an unshakable empath.
In this episode of Recovery Diaries in Depth, Deb speaks openly about her mother's descent into hoarding disorder, their immensely complex relationship, and broader issues related to mental illness, trauma, anxiety, and recovery in this fascinating interview with host Gabriel Nathan. Deb's book, "Lost, Found, Kept: A Memoir" is a stunning, award-winning debut book from this therapist/author who confronts so much buried pain with such compassion, not only for her mother, but for herself and for others going through similar trials in life.
"Lost, Found, Kept" is far more than a story of one woman's mental illness, it is a complex narrative woven and stitched through time that traces, through objects and memories, a story of what happened and how, and what comes after shame is discovered and uncovered.
Deb shares with Gabe what writing "Lost, Found, Kept" was like, why she decided to tell this story, how she navigates her two lives as therapist and as writer-- one requiring discretion and boundaries, one necessitating public openness-- and she vulnerably shares about what it has been like to navigate the immensely complex nature of coming to grips with a family member's mental illness when you yourself are a practitioner.
This book and this interview are, ultimately, about survival of what threatens to consume and destroy, what lies buried under detritus and secrets, and what can emerge to give hope, strength, and love. Listen, and share.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so delighted and luckyto have on the show today
Deborah Derrickson Kossmann.
She is the author of Lost FoundKept A Memoir, the winner of
Trio House Press' inaugural 2013Aurora Polaris Creative
(00:25):
Nonfiction Award.
Deb is also a psychologist andwe are delighted to have her
here.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
(00:46):
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
(01:07):
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow.
And, of course, make sure tolike, share and subscribe.
(01:28):
Deborah Derrickson-Kostman,thank you so so much for joining
us here on Recovery DiariesIn-Depth.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (01:40):
Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
Gabe Nathan (01:43):
It is an absolute pleasure.
Can you just tell us very, verybriefly a little bit about who
you are, what you do and whyyou're here?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (01:54):
Well, I've been a clinical
psychologist for more than 30years, but I've also had a
second career along with that,as a writer, and I published my
first book in January of thisyear.
It's called Lost, found, kept.
It's a memoir, and it won theAurora Polaris Prize in Creative
Nonfiction from Trio HousePress, and it's the story about
(02:16):
my mother, who spent more than30 years hiding out in her house
, which became a very badhoarding situation, and how my
sister and my family and Iresolved the situation, but also
talking about my growing up andhow we got to that place where
my mother felt she had to dothat.
Gabe Nathan (02:40):
So I have a couple of things to say in response to
that mini introduction.
The first is I'm very glad andgrateful that you went into a
helping profession, that you arehelping others, because it's so
clear when you're reading thebook what an empath and what a
(03:04):
feeler you are.
And that's obviously not theonly criteria for being a good
clinician.
But it had better be up there,and I'm just very grateful for
that Because, as someone wholives with mental illness and
someone who's been in therapysince 2010, I know how important
(03:27):
that is to be able to havepeople like that to go to.
So thank you for that.
It's kind of like a thank youfor your service spiel to a
veteran or something like that,but it's okay.
And I want to say too it's soshocking that this is your first
(03:51):
book, because it's so good.
And what does good mean?
We're going to get to thatlater all of the qualities that
make the book what it is, thequalities that make the book
what it is.
But what I couldn't escape fromwhen I was reading the book is
(04:12):
just how visceral it is and howyou have an ability to place the
reader in time and space, whichcan be quote the hoarder's
house and that feeling ofretching as you're going from
room to room, or whether it's aviolent or frightening scene
(04:35):
from your childhood.
You know situations that I'venever been.
Well, I have been in ahoarder's house, but not to this
extent, situations most people,let's say, have probably never
been in.
It's really extraordinary.
So, what a debut work.
And I want to get right intothat debut work, if you don't
(05:02):
mind, by just reading a smallsection from the end, if you
don't mind, by just reading asmall section from the end, if
you don't mind.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (05:08):
Yeah, so this is from the epilogue of
the book.
I close my journal.
There will always be sadness.
I think I've chosen to work asa psychologist and to be a
writer, both callings thatrequire courage to explore the
unknown.
In the hoarder house I found alarge unframed print art I
suspect my mother meant for meto have.
(05:30):
It depicts a tiny mouse holdinga stick up in the air as it
balances a board with a big lioncrouched on top.
The background is Africa, withgrasses, a few trees and a dirt
road leading toward a purpleblue sky.
It's called anger management.
After we cleaned out the houseI had it framed and hung it over
(05:51):
my desk in my private practiceoffice.
Am I that mouse or that lion?
And which one is my mother?
I walk downstairs to join Mark,my husband, for more coffee.
As we sit together reading onthe sun porch, the birds on the
feeder cardinals, blue jays andstarlings chirp loudly.
The wind chime hung outsidenear the old magnolia gong
(06:12):
softly in the summer breeze.
Love is the gravity thattethers us here.
Love is what gives us thestrength to balance the anger.
When I was in high school, myyearbook quote under my
unflattering senior photo wasfrom James Thurber.
Every time I ask anybody forthe moon, it gets larger and
farther away, but the earthholds on regardless.
(06:32):
It's love that keeps it there.
Gabe Nathan (06:39):
Love that gives us the strength to balance the
anger.
Love that gives us the strengthto balance the anger.
So my wife and I have beentalking a lot about your book.
Good, Obviously it is good, it'svery good, but one of the
things that we were talkingabout was sparked by that
(07:02):
section, and so I'm reallyasking you this question, as
much for her, as it is for me,as it is for our listeners, as
it is for you how do you processthat anger?
(07:22):
How do you process that angeris the first part of the
question, and then how do youhelp others do the same thing in
situations that are totallyunique to them?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (07:36):
And I'm just going to pause there.
Well, I think you know one ofthe concerns that I had about
the book when I wrote it was doI sound too angry in the book?
That I had about the book whenI wrote it was do I sound too
angry in the book?
Because, as you know fromreading it, you know there was
so much frustration and so muchrage and so much pain around
what we discovered in mymother's house and, because of
my long family history of lossesand traumas and some other
(07:59):
kinds of things, it was verycomplicated to go into that
house and part of the narrative,through line of the hoarding,
sort of pulls together all ofthose strands you know from my
childhood and growing up abouthow we got here with my mother.
I think you know the anger.
One of the ways that I reallytried to temper it and I think
(08:20):
this is true when we think abouthow we deal with our own
families and things that havehappened in our own families is
to try and look at ourselveswith a lot of compassion,
because I think you know thatfeeling is just a feeling, it's
normal.
You know anger can be used forgood or for ill and it's a
(08:41):
signal that something is notokay.
You know, generally it's asignal about that our boundaries
have been crossed or thatsomething is too much or that we
need to protect ourselves insome way.
So I think that if you cananswer anger with compassion and
with care, sometimes you canhelp dissipate it.
I will say along those linesthat there are some things that
(09:03):
I don't think are forgivable andI think there are some things
where you may have anger, youknow, kind of forever.
I mean, I can think aboutcertain aspects of that house
and still wind myself up prettygood about it.
But I think what I tried to doin the book was to really have
compassion for my mother'ssituation, but also really
(09:24):
compassion for me as well, andthat was actually harder to do
than having the compassion formy mother.
I think it's much harder tohave compassion for oneself when
one is really struggling with alot of negative feeling.
So I think that, you know, Ithink that's part of it.
Gabe Nathan (09:40):
I think that's universal For me personally.
I think that's universal For mepersonally everybody's allowed
to make a mistake but me.
And when I do it it's like Imean, as you know, I'll let
people in on the, I'll peel thecurtain back a little bit.
So I fucked up this podcastlike what?
Eight times.
I know even that's not true,like that's hyperbole, right,
(10:02):
like it wasn't eight times.
But in my mind even that's nottrue, like that's hyperbole,
right, like it wasn't eighttimes.
But in my mind that's what itfeels like and it is this
incredibly outsized reactionthat feels completely legitimate
in the moment, because makingfucking up or making whatever it
is feels cataclysmic.
(10:23):
But really it's just aboutbeing human, um, but I I do want
to touch on something that yousaid.
You mentioned forgiveness andand that there are some things
that are unforgivable.
I was also talking to my, mywife, about this just over
making lunch.
There's so much out there in, Ithink, in pop psychology and
(10:55):
even in therapist's office andin writing, about how you have
to forgive and about how that'sthe way.
And if you don't, you knowyou're carrying this bag of
bricks and it's really justhurting you If you're holding on
to anger onto anger at someoneelse, and you know so.
I'm so curious about your takeon that with yourself, with
(11:16):
patients in life in general.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (11:19):
Well, I think that you know I say to
patients and you know certainlyI feel this myself.
I mean I've done a lot oftherapy myself which I talk
about in the book.
You know, I think you knowthere's a thing in psychology
and sort of in our you know kindof easy meme world about, you
know, forgiveness in a very Idon't know pop psychology sort
(11:43):
of way, and I don't think it'shelpful.
I do think that forgivenessrequires an act by both people
in a sense of joining togetherand each of them owning their
own piece of what happened.
And that doesn't happen a wholelot.
I think what happens is that,more commonly, what we need to
(12:04):
do is reconcile with therealities of the situation and,
for ourselves, come to a placeof acceptance about things
having happened.
You know these things happenedand they weren't good, they were
painful to me or they hurt me,and what happens then, you know,
is a kind of freeing pieceabout your choices, about what
(12:26):
you do with your own part ofthat.
The other person may not beable to engage around it.
My mother never talked about thehoarding house, you know.
I talk about this in the book.
After it happened, you know itwas very in my family we often
don't talk about things verydirectly, so there was always
that, but particularly shamefulthings.
(12:47):
I think forgiveness is acomplicated thing.
I think we sort of reconcile.
I think some things, like I saidbefore, are unforgivable, but I
also think that you can makeyour peace with what happened
and I think when we talk aboutcarrying stuff around, it's
about kind of right-sizing thatanger and that emotion.
You know those are things thathappened in the past and they
(13:09):
affected us and the more weunderstand what happened and the
more we can right-size our youknow feelings about it, the
better we are in terms ofdealing with stuff that happens
after.
You know, of freeing in writingthe book and actually it was
(13:34):
kind of freeing about dealingwith the hoarding situation
generally is, you know, from thebeginning of my book I talk
about how having an awarenessfrom a very young age about my
mother's, you know, having somemental issues and struggling
herself and my mother functionedat a very high level.
She was a nurse.
If you met her you would haveloved her.
You know she was bright, shewas creative, she was a nurse.
If you met her you would haveloved her.
Gabe Nathan (13:51):
You start to clean that uniform every day.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (13:53):
She was bright, she was creative, she
was an interesting person, shehad a good sense of humor, like
all of those things were trueabout her.
So what was interesting aboutyou know, and kind of validating
and actually kind of freed meup maybe I wouldn't go as far as
forgiving perhaps, but to kindof be able to move away from it
(14:14):
in a way was that dealing withthe hoarding house sort of was
validation.
This was always there.
I mean, there was always a messinside.
And now everybody knew thatthere was a mess inside and that
this was reality.
Even in my own family, I thinkmy sister was in denial about
some of the ways that my motherbehaved and was, because she
(14:35):
behaved differently with mysister than she did with me.
And you know, I think there wassomething kind of freeing about
like yeah, this is reality,it's not pretty, is?
Gabe Nathan (14:44):
this the sister that you messaged from the house
saying like you'll never sleepagain.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (14:48):
Yes, yeah, the sister I grew up with.
Gabe Nathan (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, you'll never sleep again.
Yes, yeah, the sister I grew upwith.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I?
To go back to what you weresaying about right-sizing
emotions, I'm very curious, assomeone who has these two career
paths, which are similar insome some ways and also not in
(15:13):
others, which one of them helpedyou kind of right-size your
emotions?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (15:21):
That's a great question.
Gabe Nathan (15:22):
Maybe they both did or in certain ways.
But I mean, I'd love to hearyou explore that.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (15:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think both, in a way, Like Ibecame, you know they're both
callings for me being apsychologist and being a writer,
and you know.
So both careers have kind ofnurtured each other in a sense.
And I think, you know, part ofmy promotion for the book is
(15:47):
like how could I be apsychologist and deal with it
this way, Like how can I have asituation like this as a
psychologist?
Because we have this idealizedidea of, like mental health
professionals, being able tocope with anything.
Gabe Nathan (15:58):
Well, please you don't have to worry about that
on the show.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (16:03):
Yes, but you know, but I think there
is sort of that mythology aboutsomehow and curiosity about like
well, so why didn't you dealwith it?
Why didn't you deal with itsooner?
Why couldn't you have donesomething different?
And I think that being able towrite about it was not cathartic
.
If we think about puttingtogether the book.
(16:24):
The book is a work of art.
What was cathartic is every day.
When I came back from that damnhouse, I sat down and I
journaled, because journalinghas always been something that's
helped me process the worldaround me.
I have I'm, up to 71 journals.
I have like, so like.
When you talk about thevisceral reaction of like
certain scenes in the book andbeing in that scene, a lot of
(16:45):
that material came right out ofmy journal.
I mean edited and, you know,shaped for the book.
But that raw material is, youknow, did help me make sense of
it and you know, and I think,trying to understand that, and I
think this is an importantpoint about hoarding disorder.
It's a mental illness.
(17:06):
I mean it became a DSMdiagnosis in 2013.
The statistics are startlingabout it.
It's one in 40 people in thiscountry experience a.
You know, there's differentlevels of it.
My mom was kind of DEFCON fivebut you know, from minimal
clutter to like full-on, youknow crisis like we were in with
my mom, but it's a hugepercentage of people I mean it's
(17:28):
a higher number of people thanpeople who are diagnosed with a
major mental illness, likeschizophrenia.
So it's like when you and it'snot discussed, there's so much
shame and so much hiddenness andsecrecy about it that you know
people just don't realize, orthey kind of know but they don't
really know.
Gabe Nathan (17:50):
Or, like you know, as a suicide awareness advocate.
I think a lot of people look atit the same way.
That won't happen to me, right,that's someone else.
That'll happen to someone else,or maybe my.
The guy that I went to, youknow, sat behind in sixth grade,
you know, took his own life at40, whatever, okay, that's him,
(18:11):
it will never be me.
I think that it's almostimpossible for the brain to
process and conceive that sceneslike you're describing could
possibly be my mother's house ormine, until it's happening, you
know, just like suicide, untilit hits, hits.
It's like oh my god, my family,me.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (18:35):
Well, and it's such a complicated
diagnosis, gabe like we don't myfield does not understand it
well it used to be consideredrelated to obsessive compulsive
disorder and now it's morethought about in relation to
addictive disorders in terms of,like you know, and anxiety
disorders and depression.
Often what kicks it off isgrief and loss, so there's a
(18:58):
trauma component.
There was definitely thatcomponent with my mom and my
family and you know, if you lookat you know it's not understood
well how to treat it because wedon't really understand how it
happens.
Gabe Nathan (19:12):
Also like suicide, another.
What do we understand about it?
What do we know about it?
How do we prevent it?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (19:18):
Right and you know, and like with
suicide, there's been tremendousstrides, I think, in the last
10 years in suicide awarenessand kind of understanding and
talking about like, okay, theseare things that help or these
are things that you know canchange that outcome.
I think with hoarding disorder,one of the issues is that it's
(19:39):
one in 40 in the regularpopulation, but in the elderly
population there's like 2% inthe general population, it's
like 6% in the elderlypopulation.
So what you really have arepeople you know my age or our
age, who are cleaning out theirparents' houses and stepping
into a situation where theirparent has begun hoarding.
They've had a major loss,they've had cognitive
(19:59):
difficulties, they've struggledwith depression, maybe physical
limitations, and now suddenlythey can't cope and now suddenly
things are spiraling out ofcontrol.
Now suddenly things arespiraling out of control, and so
that's another piece of this aswell.
You know my mom, you know,built this wall.
(20:20):
You know this house was kind ofa wall between her and the
world and she went out into theworld but the world did not come
into that house.
Gabe Nathan (20:28):
She went out in the Camry filled with shit also.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (20:31):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, house.
Gabe Nathan (20:33):
Well, she went out in the Camry filled with shit
also.
So yeah, the car was like thattoo.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (20:38):
Well, and also, you know I have to
laugh because we, as we finishedcleaning out the house, the
next door neighbor who had beenincredibly helpful to my mom and
had done a lot of stuff for her, when she wouldn't let my
sister and I do it, came overand was like oh, and, by the way
, like your mom put a few thingsin our garage.
I was just like it's actuallyvery common, you know, people
(21:00):
buy a storage unit or they buyan additional house or they, but
like you know, the neighbor hadlet her like store stuff in the
attic and by the time that washappening the stuff was so weird
that she was keeping.
It was like very, very strangestuff.
Like you know, I couldn't sortof understand.
You know you can sort of see thearchaeology of the hoard and
(21:21):
sort of the different timelines.
You know there was kind of thepre-my grandmother's death
hoarding and then there was thepost-grandmother's death
hoarding and it looked verydifferent.
And you know I I wasn't joking,I think in the book at one time
I say to my sister you know,looks like a serial killer lives
here, but it's like thehoarding equivalent of a serial
killer, you know yeah, and justas taboo, feeling um, um, that
(21:51):
that increase of awareness inthe last 10 years or so, um, was
that part of the motivation?
Gabe Nathan (22:00):
I mean, it sounds like a dumb question but I'm I'm
assuming that was part of themotivation for writing the book,
helping move that needle umtowards you know, decloaking
shame and just saying, like thisshit is happening, this
happened to me.
I can talk about it, and notonly just talk about it, but in
an eloquent, moving way.
(22:20):
I'm assuming that was part ofthe motivation.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (22:23):
Well, I think you know there was a
version of this book that Iwrote and tried to get a
literary agent around in like2014.
And what was interesting isthat in 2014, I had decided that
I wasn't going to write aboutmy mother until she died, like I
had pretty much made thatagreement with myself that I
wasn't going to write about it.
And you know it's interestingbecause you know every literary
(22:46):
agent and you know that saw themanuscript was like you know the
writing's great, this is abeautiful book, it's like, but
there's something missing.
And you know I couldn't tellthe story because we hadn't been
in the house.
I could speculate, I mean Icould sort of include her in the
story, but it really until 2016, when we went into that house
and what happened after thecleanout was, I decided it was
(23:09):
my story.
I decided this is my story andI can tell this story.
The story needs to be told andin fact, in a weird way, the
hoarding, you know, organizedthe book I had been struggling
with, like kind of what is the,you know, kind of narrative
through-line in this book, andthe hoarding provided that
structure.
So you know, ironically, thedisorganization and the chaos of
(23:34):
that house and of the situationyou know kind of helped me make
sense of my family in a way.
It helped me sort of put ittogether in a different way than
I had thought about it before.
And my mom was alive when Ifinished this book.
So actually today is thetwo-year anniversary of her
death and you know, she died inJuly of 2023, and 2023 was a
(24:02):
terrible year.
But right before, one of thetwo or three good things that
happened that year was thatright before my oldest my
sister's oldest daughter gotmarried in September, I found
out that I had won this prize,and the irony of this prize is
that it's named after the AuroraPolaris Prize.
My mother loved astronomy andspace and all of that and I
(24:25):
couldn't help but kind of thinkthat there was a little bit of a
you know an okay from her aboutthe book because of that Starry
magic.
Yeah, it was kind of strange,but she'd be mad at me about
telling the secret.
But my mom was always reallysupportive of my writing.
(24:47):
So in a weird kind of way, I'vewondered if she knew that I was
writing it, because up untilthe time that, like 2016, 2017,
we always talked about mywriting and I shared stuff with
her and stuff, but then, after Istarted working on the book, I
didn't really talk with her muchabout it.
Our relationship had changed,and so I always wondered though
(25:08):
I mean, my mother was a verysmart and intuitive woman in
many ways and that on some levelshe knew I was writing it, but
she never asked and we nevertalked about it well, and that
goes back to the whole thingabout we don't talk about things
, and I mean that resonates hardwith me.
Gabe Nathan (25:27):
I'm very much from a family we don't talk about it.
Family, which, of course, hasput with me I'm very much from a
family we don't talk about it.
Family which, of course, hasput me on a path to writing on
Medium and writing on Substackand being a mental health
advocate and not shutting thefuck up as an act of resistance
and rebellion.
That's what happens.
It's the same thing as raisinga child in a puritanical family
(25:52):
and super strict.
They're going to go out and dowhatever as soon as they can.
It has to get out.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (26:00):
Yeah, well, you know the old thing.
You know, we're only as sick asour secrets, right, like there
are things that are private.
The things that are secretsgenerally are not so healthy in
families.
You know, privacy is one thing,secrecy is something else.
Gabe Nathan (26:17):
Yeah, well, hopefully my mother's listening.
I have a question related tothe comment.
You said that sometimes you getcomments from people about you
know, you being a mental healthclinician, and how did you not
know and why didn't youintervene?
(26:37):
Just to share a little personalthing I think I mentioned to
you in an email I used to workat a psychiatric hospital in
Norristown.
I used to work at a psychiatrichospital in Norristown and as a
staff member I noticed prettyquickly how fucked up we all
(26:58):
were and how struggling we allwere and losing ourselves in
this fight against serious andpersistent mental illness and
recidivism and assaults and allof that stuff.
And when I first startedworking there, I was like I am
going to come in here from 7 to3 and do my job and keep my head
down and get the fuck out ofhere and I'm not going to get
attached to these people.
(27:19):
And of course, that didn'thappen.
And I got very, very attachedto folks who I worked with in a
trauma bonding crisis crazy way,probably very unhealthy, but it
happened and as a theater major, I was looking for a way to
(27:41):
bring us together and so Istaged this production of Our
Town with the staff.
We rehearsed for four monthsfrom seven to 10.
Nurses worked seven A to sevenP.
They would race to the theaterand put the show on in december
of 2015, twice for the community.
And, and I ended up giving atalk at the international
thornton wilder conference aboutdoing our town in this
(28:02):
environment with these peopleand talked about how it changed
us and what it was like, and,and you know, gave this
20-minute talk and was answeringquestions.
Someone said I don't rememberanything.
Anybody said, except this oneperson.
Of course, it's always the oneperson who said oh so you did
(28:23):
this for you and the staff, whydidn't you do it for the
patients?
And I like, immediately I feltso hurt and so like, so guilty.
Like, of course I should havedone it for the patients.
What the fuck?
What was I thinking right, likehow could I, as a mental health
professional, been soinsensitive to these folks who
(28:46):
are so clearly suffering and aredeprived of their rights and
302 and all the rest of it, andwe have keys and we can come and
go as we please and all of thatstuff.
But I felt so ashamed and soguilty and I wonder if those
comments and questions like thatdoes that hurt you?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (29:12):
Does it feel like you know?
I don't actually, because Ithink part of it is about you
know mental health.
Folks have some mythologyaround themselves about you know
kind of you know trying to kindof hold onto a facade about
things, and I think you know ifyou're you know to be a healthy
(29:35):
person, you know working in thisfield, you know you're doing
your own therapy, you're lookingat your own stuff.
There's not a human on theplanet that doesn't have, you
know their own baggage.
There's a line in the book thatI use in therapy a lot with
people where I say you know thegoal in life is not to go
through life carrying a steamertrunk of your you know shit and
your old stuff, but to becarrying a small carry-on of it
(29:59):
Because you're never going toget rid of it.
You're always going to haveyour own stuff and so you know
the people not understanding orpeople kind of you know.
I was at a book group andsomebody said you know my family
, we never would have like letmy mother alone for that long.
The sisters would have beenthere, the kids would have been
there, like everybody would havebeen there.
(30:20):
And you know, and I was likethat is a cultural like it was
really interesting because westarted talking about the
cultural implications of thisthat you know, in you know kind
of WASP families where there'ssecrets and you know that kind
of thing and shame, and you knowit's a different kind of
cultural milieu than a differentfamily, like you know, and you
(30:41):
know this person had grown up ina large, you know, Irish
Catholic family with, like youknow, a lot of everybody was
sort of in everybody else'sstuff and you know.
So I think trying to understandpeople's you know questions
about this stuff is coming fromtheir own curiosity and sort of
you know, like I think it's awonderful, our town was actually
(31:03):
one of my mother's favoriteplays.
We took her to see it in NewYork and I think it's, like you
know, for the staff in thatenvironment is a very cool thing
be able to do with them whatyou did, because I think in
order to work with patients,people working with patients
need those creative outlets andthose ways to express themselves
(31:25):
, because that's how you stayreal.
Stay real.
Gabe Nathan (31:32):
Thank you, I really appreciate that and I it's.
It's.
It's lovely to remember.
We just had a reunion.
I guess it was 10 years.
It was 10 years in 2024.
And went back to the stage whichis it's on the the grounds of
the state hospital and and it'sum, I don't know, it was kind of
(31:55):
a wild thing.
Um, very cool.
Thank you, um.
But that brings me to a questionabout memory.
For you, um, and you know, Ithink not to speak for you, but
from what I read, a lot of thememories that you have of
(32:17):
Willowbrook Road and from yourchildhood are not great.
Yes, my question is what do youdo with that other than put it
(32:41):
in a book and try to make senseof it and try to make art from
it?
Golly, this is anotherconversation I was having with
my wife.
We talk a lot.
That's good.
I guess it was really stand-upcomedians who really mine trauma
for laughs and how that can beso, so unhealthy, and so I think
(33:03):
, re-traumatizing, and I thinkthere's all kinds of
implications surrounding thatand all kinds of complicated
things related to humor and whatis funny and why.
But I guess from yourperspective, it's a different
thing and I just want to ask youabout that, about, about memory
(33:26):
, and what do we do with that?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (33:28):
I think , a couple things.
I love watching comedy andhumor because I think there's
something so wonderful aboutbeing able to be resilient
enough to create something outof that pain, like you know, I
think most creative people use.
You know, I think one of theuseful things that we can say
(33:49):
about suffering is that if youcan make something out of it,
then maybe it was worthwhile insome way or at least you know,
had a you know something to dowith it other than just the
suffering part.
Right, and one of the thingsthat you know to your point,
like I admire about comedians isthat there's a way of crafting
things, and part of how youcraft things is you're choosing
(34:10):
what you're using to tell thestory.
So one of the things in a lotof memoirs I found is that, like
two pet peeves about memoir Oneis that it often gets soggy in
the middle.
So it was really important forme to make sure that the story
that I was telling was tight andthat you wanted to read it and
keep reading it and you kind ofcouldn't put it down and it
(34:31):
didn't get soggy in the middleand one of the problems with
that soggy in the middle part isthat what's important to me as
a person is not necessarilyimportant to the story and to
what you need to get from thestory.
So, like, particular incidentsmight be really relevant to how
I grew up and what I learned andhow you know what happened, but
(34:53):
they're not relevant to thestory that I'm telling.
So, in a way, you're curating alife.
You know.
I'm curating this part of mylife to tell you about it, and
this part of my life is abouttelling you the story of my
relationship with my mother,where there was a lot of pain
and trauma, and I think I alsotried to include things that
were not always painful, but mymother was not an easy person.
(35:15):
So you know what's in there isin there.
There are some side storiesabout other traumas and loss
that relate to my mother.
Some of that is probably adifferent book.
There are some interestingeditorial choices when I talk
about my fathers and like how Ichose to handle you know that
history with them.
You know.
(35:37):
I think that you know.
So the second piece about memoiris that it's hard to figure out
where to end a memoir right,memoir right.
So when I finished thismanuscript, my mom was still
alive, so the book ended withher being in assisted living and
, you know, making this changein her life and starting to
(35:59):
hoard in her room in assistedliving.
But I think one of thedecisions that got made when
Trio House took the book was youknow, do we include the end
scene with my mom?
You know my mom's death, and itfelt right to do that, to sort
of have the closure and havethat be the end of the story.
(36:21):
So having a sort of more setending and less open-ended
ending was important.
But I think the memory piece isI don't want to traumatize the
reader of the book.
I want the reader to understandhow we got here in the story.
You know, and part of thatstory is telling some of the
(36:43):
things that happened.
You know that were not easythings.
Gabe Nathan (36:49):
So that brings me to another question the balance
between your life as a clinicianand your life as a writer, and
this idea you know we talkedabout, like the therapeutic
facade or the mask that's howthey put it at the hospital.
(37:09):
You have to wear your mask andnot let anything shake you, and
all of that.
But so there's a real dichotomythat I see about professional
distance between yourself andyour patients and then this kind
(37:30):
of obligation as a memoirist toreally put yourself out there,
and that's.
I just want to know how younavigated that and did you
experience like internalconflict with that.
It's a great question what doyou do?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (37:44):
So when I started, so I've always had
two careers right and I'vealways written.
I've written, you know, futurearticles and essays and poetry,
and up until the point when theinternet got really, really big,
it was very easy to keep thingsseparate, like people, wouldn't
?
You know people?
I could be a writer and I couldbe a psychologist and never
(38:05):
between would meet biologistsand never between would meet.
Then, with the advent of theinternet, it got a little bit
different and when I got somebig publications, like in the
New York Times, occasionally,you know, a client would come in
and say that they had readsomething or they had, you know,
and those were my New YorkTimes pieces were mostly
humorous, modern love pieces.
So they were, while they werepersonal, they were kind of more
(38:27):
not like this book, you know, Imean although this book has
humor in it, it's a little bitdifferent.
So when I, you know, I made thedecision to write this book and
I think part of it was trustingthat the universe was going to
be okay with it and that I wouldwork out with whatever clinical
(38:50):
stuff I needed to work out with.
Now I should also say that I'mkind of at a later stage of my
career.
I'm kind of winding down towardretirement.
I'm not retired.
I have a pretty still prettyfull private practice but I'm
not taking new clients.
So that makes it a little biteasier, although I have to say
I'm a little bit sad becausesince I published the book, I've
had a few writers reach out whowanted therapy and I'm kind of
(39:13):
disappointed about not beingable to do that, because I
really enjoy working withcreative people.
Gabe Nathan (39:18):
Refer, refer, refer .
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (39:20):
Yeah, well, I talk to.
It's funny because I sit on thePennsylvania State
Psychological Association'sEthics Committee and I have a
specialty in legal and ethicalissues.
So I think a lot aboutboundaries and about some of the
things that come up withclients and I think that in our
field, when I've taught legaland ethical and I've taught
clinical classes, we don't talkenough about how we use
(39:43):
ourselves in an ethical way.
We sort of, you know, I thinkpeople have this idea of sort of
this therapist mask, you know,and they'll say you know, how
did you feel about that?
Right, like you know, and sortof do the stereotypic therapist
thing.
And I think part of what wehave to teach students is how to
be genuine and to becomfortable in themselves and to
(40:05):
have done enough of their ownwork to be able to be flexible
and be relational and be able tonavigate complicated
interactions with people andmodel how to do that.
So when the book was about to bepublished, the sort of king of
you know, he's kind of the godof ethics in the Pennsylvania,
(40:28):
actually American PsychologicalAssociation, sam Knapp, he's a
wonderful person and he ran, youknow, he worked for on PPA for
a very long time.
He's written numerous booksabout it, and I said to him I
was at an ethics meeting and Iwas like you know, suddenly it
dawns on me I'm a little bitnervous about publishing this
book, like people, likeeverybody's going to read it,
(40:48):
you know, like I don't knoweverybody's going to read it,
you know, like I don't knowwho's going to read it, like I,
you know, and I have clients whoknew about it and people saw it
because it got publicity and soit's been a very interesting
process of kind of you know,some people have brought it up
because it impacted what theyfelt about what was happening in
art therapy, or they identifiedwith a particular part about
(41:11):
the book, like the mother partof the book, or you know some
other aspects of the book.
Or you know kind of talkingabout not wanting to read it
because not wanting to see me asa real person, because of where
they were in their therapy,which also was plenty fine.
You know, like you don't have toread my book, that was not you
(41:32):
know, it's like they would findout about it and they'd be like
I don't want to read your, likethat's fine, don't read my book,
it's good.
But I think you know, just kindof on a case-by-case basis, sort
of talking about that and beingable to say, you know,
everybody has their traumas,everybody has their history, and
it's about what you do withthat.
You know, and you know yourhistory, you know what happened
(42:00):
in my history doesn't impact you, unless it's something that you
feel I won't understand or Iwon't get or maybe I will get or
you know whatever that is andwe'll talk through it, because
it's like any other clinicalissue or thing that comes up in
therapy you just talk about itand you figure it out.
But I will say it's been, it'sactually been lovely in some
(42:23):
ways.
Yesterday got an email from aclient I hadn't seen for
probably I don't know 16 years,who had read the book and had
reached out and sent a lovelyemail about it, and those kinds
of gifts are really nice, youknow, surprising but nice.
Gabe Nathan (42:42):
May they keep coming.
You deserve them, and I thinkthat's part of the wonderful
thing about putting any creativework out into the world.
You know, of course there'sthose ethical implications for
you as a clinician, but just theact of sending out this thing
and having it touch and movepeople and resonate with people,
(43:05):
I think it's extraordinary andvery vulnerable and very giving,
and part of the reason why Iwanted to have you on here is
it's because we have peopledoing that here from all over
the world all the time, and I'vebeen doing this job here since
(43:29):
2016, 15, 16.
And I'm always astonished whenwe get new submissions, new
people who are just willing toput themselves out there, people
in countries where mentalhealth is so, so, so stigmatized
, to the point of it beingdangerous to talk about things.
(43:53):
It's really stunning, and Ithink, too, that there are still
people who have the attitudethat if you're talking about
your mental health, you'reattention seeking or you're like
.
That just blows my mind.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (44:13):
Well, and I think, one of my fears
about this, even when I wasdoing the website, which FYI is
lostfoundkeptcom.
There's a few pictures and someother resources on the website
that people might find helpfulother resources on the website
that people might find helpful.
But I think you know, one of thethings I did not want was you
(44:34):
know this is not an episode ofhoarders.
You know it's not an exploitive.
You know this is about a realstory, with real and not that
those aren't real stories, butthere's a kind of an
exploitation aboutsensationalizing the hoarding
aspect of it and you know it'slike we call them hoarders, not
people who hoard, and it's likeother kinds of mental illness
(44:56):
with that stigma.
It's like you know you aren't ahoarder, you're a person who's
doing the hoarding behavior.
Gabe Nathan (45:02):
Yeah, person first language.
So there are, like mentalhealth advocates I know, who are
trying to reclaim like I'm abipolar, I'm a schizophrenic and
like there's so much hot debatearound person first language.
But I, my personal opinion, ishow can it be anything other?
(45:32):
You are a person first,literally.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (45:37):
Well and I struggle with this as a
mental health professionalbecause I think to your point,
it's good that there's lessstigma about some of this stuff
and there needs to be lessstigma and we need to be able to
speak more freely about it.
But you are not your diagnosis.
You are not.
You know, and you know I'll seeyounger people sometimes and
they'll be like this is who I am.
(45:59):
It's like no, that's somethingthat you deal with, that you've
got, that you cope with.
It's not that there's anythingshameful about it, but you're
more than that.
You're more than your diagnosis.
You're more than your cancerdiagnosis.
You're more than your bipolardiagnosis.
You are a person and I thinkone of the things I really tried
to do with my mom is that shewas an extremely complicated
(46:23):
person and there were somereally wonderful things about
her.
You know her.
Probably partly the mentalillness gave her a kind of
fluidity and a kind of, you know, like purely creative, boundary
merging sort of way of bringingus up Like everything was
magical in a way.
(46:43):
There was so much creativityand so much playfulness and, you
know, and it was a littleatypical.
You know, we had you know, Ijoke because I mentioned it in
the book, but we had thebirthday fairy, like other
people, you know, along withSanta Claus and the Easter Bunny
and whatever else, we had thebirthday fairy and she would
come and bring the presents, youknow, and my mother had a whole
(47:06):
story about how shecommunicated with the birthday
fairy, you know, and my motherhad a whole story about how she
communicated with the birthdayfairy, like, but that kind of
creativity, you know, was also,as a kid, like, incredibly
joyous and incredibly, you know,good, um, in so many ways, um,
but also a little strange, youknow.
So she was all of these things,you know.
(47:28):
She could be mean, she could be, she could be mean, she could
be complicated, she could beangry, she could be difficult,
but she also was very caring andhad this very kind of way of
looking at the world that wasreally kind of magical in some
ways.
Gabe Nathan (47:46):
And when you think about that magic, I think I
don't know.
I think a lot of people aspireto take what's good and hold on
to it and take it and make itinto something new as they get
older.
As you've taken that magic, howdo you sprinkle that through
(48:11):
your world now?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (48:14):
Well, I think I mean I credit my mom
for a lot of my creative.
My mom was a frustrated writer,so I credit her a lot for my
creative.
You know I was an art major.
I went into college thought Iwas going to be a visual art
major.
I mean, I love dance, I lovemusic, I write.
I you know all of that stuffwas stuff she exposed us to
growing up.
And also, you know one of themagical things about her she was
(48:36):
very she didn't get to go tocollege and have the full
academic experience.
She was a registered nurse, soshe did nursing school and she
taught herself a lot of things.
Like I remember, when I wasprobably seven or eight, we
spent a summer where we she had,you know, read everything about
all these different religionsand you know, she's like we're
(48:57):
going to learn about all thedifferent religions and we're
going to go to a service foreach of these kinds of religions
and you're going to see, like,how other people worship God and
, like you know and I look backon that and think, you know,
it's magical in a way but italso, you know, taught us an
incredible amount of empathy andunderstanding.
Like, no, none of my friendsgrew up that way.
They knew about their ownreligion.
(49:18):
They didn't understand otherpeople's religions.
They never thought, you know,they were never taught that
other people's religions are asvalid as your own.
Right, but my mother, like youknow, sort of you know, she had
those values and she wanted tokind of, you know, share those
things and that part of herparenting was really pretty
(49:39):
remarkable.
Like we went, you know, shetook us to children's orchestra
concerts and, like you know,exposed us to things.
You know, and I do talk aboutthat in the book and you know,
and I think you know, despiteher own limitations and her own
struggles, she was able toprovide a lot of that to my
(50:00):
sister and myself, you know, andto her grandkids.
She was a very good grandmother, you know, but I think you know
.
The other question about thisright is that, you know, I think
it's very easy to see people inblack and white.
It's sort of like when I wasangry with her, when I was
dealing with the hoarding housesituation, I mean, it's like
(50:21):
that was all-encompassing andwhile, you know, and I talk
about the scenes where I'mcleaning up the stuff from my
sort of magical childhood orsome of the good interactions
that happen and it's sort oflike having all that stuff
crapped all over literally.
You know, and I think you know,part of health is being able to
(50:43):
hold both of those things.
You know that she was both thisand she was this things.
Gabe Nathan (50:53):
You know that she was both this and she was this.
Yeah, and I think it's that.
It's that nuanced way oflooking at people and the world
and ourselves that's gonna helpget us through.
Um, so so much and for so muchof my life I've struggled with
that black and white thinkingabout myself and about other
people, and the more I've openedup to gray, the better it's
(51:18):
gotten.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (51:18):
Yeah, the richer life is.
I mean, life is much richerwhen you can see the nuances and
you don't have to makejudgments about one way or the
other way.
And you don't have to makejudgments about one way or the
other way.
Yeah, I mean, everything rightnow is kind of pushing us in
those directions and I thinkit's a problem.
Gabe Nathan (51:41):
Yeah, Less polarization, more color, more
nuance and more grace, morenuance and more grace.
The book is called Lost, Found,Kept a Memoir, Deborah
Derrickson-Kostman.
Thank you so, so much.
What a gift this has been.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (51:58):
Thank you for having the conversation.
It's been really fun to talkabout this and a different kind
of slant to it, which has beenreally enjoyable.
I appreciate that game.
Gabe Nathan (52:08):
My pleasure.
You can find the book atlostfoundkeptcom.
Where else Deb?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (52:14):
You can get it from the Evil Amazon,
and you can also get it frombookshoporg or Trio House Press,
and there's active links on theLost Found Kept website.
If you love it, leave a reviewon Amazon or Goodreads.
It really helps me.
We're going to have an audiobook probably, though not for a
little while, but the contractwas just signed, so there will
(52:36):
be an audio book and there is anebook as well.
And also, if any of yourlisteners have a book group or
are interested in having anauthor come to a book group, I'd
love to do them and I'm happyto come and visit your book
group, and you can find thatinformation on the website as
well.
Gabe Nathan (52:52):
Wonderful, but she is not accepting new clients.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (52:55):
I'm not accepting new clients, sorry.
Gabe Nathan (53:00):
Bummer.
Thank you, Deb.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (53:03):
You're welcome, Gabe.
Thanks for having me.
Gabe Nathan (53:09):
Thank you again for joining us in conversation
today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so much topsychologist and author Deborah
Derrickson-Kostman.
She is the author of Lost,found, kept a Memoir.
It is the winner of Trio HousePress's inaugural 2013 Aurora
Polaris Creative NonfictionAward.
We are so grateful to Deb forspending some time with us on
(53:33):
Recovery Diaries in depth.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
(53:53):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so delighted and luckyto have on the show today
Deborah Derrickson Kossmann.
She is the author of Lost FoundKept A Memoir, the winner of
Trio House Press' inaugural 2013Aurora Polaris Creative
(00:25):
Nonfiction Award.
Deb is also a psychologist andwe are delighted to have her
here.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
(00:46):
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
(01:07):
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow.
And, of course, make sure tolike, share and subscribe.
(01:28):
Deborah Derrickson-Kostman,thank you so so much for joining
us here on Recovery DiariesIn-Depth.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (01:40):
Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
Gabe Nathan (01:43):
It is an absolute pleasure.
Can you just tell us very, verybriefly a little bit about who
you are, what you do and whyyou're here?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (01:54):
Well, I've been a clinical
psychologist for more than 30years, but I've also had a
second career along with that,as a writer, and I published my
first book in January of thisyear.
It's called Lost, found, kept.
It's a memoir, and it won theAurora Polaris Prize in Creative
Nonfiction from Trio HousePress, and it's the story about
(02:16):
my mother, who spent more than30 years hiding out in her house
, which became a very badhoarding situation, and how my
sister and my family and Iresolved the situation, but also
talking about my growing up andhow we got to that place where
my mother felt she had to dothat.
Gabe Nathan (02:40):
So I have a couple of things to say in response to
that mini introduction.
The first is I'm very glad andgrateful that you went into a
helping profession, that you arehelping others, because it's so
clear when you're reading thebook what an empath and what a
(03:04):
feeler you are.
And that's obviously not theonly criteria for being a good
clinician.
But it had better be up there,and I'm just very grateful for
that Because, as someone wholives with mental illness and
someone who's been in therapysince 2010, I know how important
(03:27):
that is to be able to havepeople like that to go to.
So thank you for that.
It's kind of like a thank youfor your service spiel to a
veteran or something like that,but it's okay.
And I want to say too it's soshocking that this is your first
(03:51):
book, because it's so good.
And what does good mean?
We're going to get to thatlater all of the qualities that
make the book what it is, thequalities that make the book
what it is.
But what I couldn't escape fromwhen I was reading the book is
(04:12):
just how visceral it is and howyou have an ability to place the
reader in time and space, whichcan be quote the hoarder's
house and that feeling ofretching as you're going from
room to room, or whether it's aviolent or frightening scene
(04:35):
from your childhood.
You know situations that I'venever been.
Well, I have been in ahoarder's house, but not to this
extent, situations most people,let's say, have probably never
been in.
It's really extraordinary.
So, what a debut work.
And I want to get right intothat debut work, if you don't
(05:02):
mind, by just reading a smallsection from the end, if you
don't mind, by just reading asmall section from the end, if
you don't mind.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (05:08):
Yeah, so this is from the epilogue of
the book.
I close my journal.
There will always be sadness.
I think I've chosen to work asa psychologist and to be a
writer, both callings thatrequire courage to explore the
unknown.
In the hoarder house I found alarge unframed print art I
suspect my mother meant for meto have.
(05:30):
It depicts a tiny mouse holdinga stick up in the air as it
balances a board with a big lioncrouched on top.
The background is Africa, withgrasses, a few trees and a dirt
road leading toward a purpleblue sky.
It's called anger management.
After we cleaned out the houseI had it framed and hung it over
(05:51):
my desk in my private practiceoffice.
Am I that mouse or that lion?
And which one is my mother?
I walk downstairs to join Mark,my husband, for more coffee.
As we sit together reading onthe sun porch, the birds on the
feeder cardinals, blue jays andstarlings chirp loudly.
The wind chime hung outsidenear the old magnolia gong
(06:12):
softly in the summer breeze.
Love is the gravity thattethers us here.
Love is what gives us thestrength to balance the anger.
When I was in high school, myyearbook quote under my
unflattering senior photo wasfrom James Thurber.
Every time I ask anybody forthe moon, it gets larger and
farther away, but the earthholds on regardless.
(06:32):
It's love that keeps it there.
Gabe Nathan (06:39):
Love that gives us the strength to balance the
anger.
Love that gives us the strengthto balance the anger.
So my wife and I have beentalking a lot about your book.
Good, Obviously it is good, it'svery good, but one of the
things that we were talkingabout was sparked by that
(07:02):
section, and so I'm reallyasking you this question, as
much for her, as it is for me,as it is for our listeners, as
it is for you how do you processthat anger?
(07:22):
How do you process that angeris the first part of the
question, and then how do youhelp others do the same thing in
situations that are totallyunique to them?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (07:36):
And I'm just going to pause there.
Well, I think you know one ofthe concerns that I had about
the book when I wrote it was doI sound too angry in the book?
That I had about the book whenI wrote it was do I sound too
angry in the book?
Because, as you know fromreading it, you know there was
so much frustration and so muchrage and so much pain around
what we discovered in mymother's house and, because of
my long family history of lossesand traumas and some other
(07:59):
kinds of things, it was verycomplicated to go into that
house and part of the narrative,through line of the hoarding,
sort of pulls together all ofthose strands you know from my
childhood and growing up abouthow we got here with my mother.
I think you know the anger.
One of the ways that I reallytried to temper it and I think
(08:20):
this is true when we think abouthow we deal with our own
families and things that havehappened in our own families is
to try and look at ourselveswith a lot of compassion,
because I think you know thatfeeling is just a feeling, it's
normal.
You know anger can be used forgood or for ill and it's a
(08:41):
signal that something is notokay.
You know, generally it's asignal about that our boundaries
have been crossed or thatsomething is too much or that we
need to protect ourselves insome way.
So I think that if you cananswer anger with compassion and
with care, sometimes you canhelp dissipate it.
I will say along those linesthat there are some things that
(09:03):
I don't think are forgivable andI think there are some things
where you may have anger, youknow, kind of forever.
I mean, I can think aboutcertain aspects of that house
and still wind myself up prettygood about it.
But I think what I tried to doin the book was to really have
compassion for my mother'ssituation, but also really
(09:24):
compassion for me as well, andthat was actually harder to do
than having the compassion formy mother.
I think it's much harder tohave compassion for oneself when
one is really struggling with alot of negative feeling.
So I think that, you know, Ithink that's part of it.
Gabe Nathan (09:40):
I think that's universal For me personally.
I think that's universal For mepersonally everybody's allowed
to make a mistake but me.
And when I do it it's like Imean, as you know, I'll let
people in on the, I'll peel thecurtain back a little bit.
So I fucked up this podcastlike what?
Eight times.
I know even that's not true,like that's hyperbole, right,
(10:02):
like it wasn't eight times.
But in my mind even that's nottrue, like that's hyperbole,
right, like it wasn't eighttimes.
But in my mind that's what itfeels like and it is this
incredibly outsized reactionthat feels completely legitimate
in the moment, because makingfucking up or making whatever it
is feels cataclysmic.
(10:23):
But really it's just aboutbeing human, um, but I I do want
to touch on something that yousaid.
You mentioned forgiveness andand that there are some things
that are unforgivable.
I was also talking to my, mywife, about this just over
making lunch.
There's so much out there in, Ithink, in pop psychology and
(10:55):
even in therapist's office andin writing, about how you have
to forgive and about how that'sthe way.
And if you don't, you knowyou're carrying this bag of
bricks and it's really justhurting you If you're holding on
to anger onto anger at someoneelse, and you know so.
I'm so curious about your takeon that with yourself, with
(11:16):
patients in life in general.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (11:19):
Well, I think that you know I say to
patients and you know certainlyI feel this myself.
I mean I've done a lot oftherapy myself which I talk
about in the book.
You know, I think you knowthere's a thing in psychology
and sort of in our you know kindof easy meme world about, you
know, forgiveness in a very Idon't know pop psychology sort
(11:43):
of way, and I don't think it'shelpful.
I do think that forgivenessrequires an act by both people
in a sense of joining togetherand each of them owning their
own piece of what happened.
And that doesn't happen a wholelot.
I think what happens is that,more commonly, what we need to
(12:04):
do is reconcile with therealities of the situation and,
for ourselves, come to a placeof acceptance about things
having happened.
You know these things happenedand they weren't good, they were
painful to me or they hurt me,and what happens then, you know,
is a kind of freeing pieceabout your choices, about what
(12:26):
you do with your own part ofthat.
The other person may not beable to engage around it.
My mother never talked about thehoarding house, you know.
I talk about this in the book.
After it happened, you know itwas very in my family we often
don't talk about things verydirectly, so there was always
that, but particularly shamefulthings.
(12:47):
I think forgiveness is acomplicated thing.
I think we sort of reconcile.
I think some things, like I saidbefore, are unforgivable, but I
also think that you can makeyour peace with what happened
and I think when we talk aboutcarrying stuff around, it's
about kind of right-sizing thatanger and that emotion.
You know those are things thathappened in the past and they
(13:09):
affected us and the more weunderstand what happened and the
more we can right-size our youknow feelings about it, the
better we are in terms ofdealing with stuff that happens
after.
You know, of freeing in writingthe book and actually it was
(13:34):
kind of freeing about dealingwith the hoarding situation
generally is, you know, from thebeginning of my book I talk
about how having an awarenessfrom a very young age about my
mother's, you know, having somemental issues and struggling
herself and my mother functionedat a very high level.
She was a nurse.
If you met her you would haveloved her.
You know she was bright, shewas creative, she was a nurse.
If you met her you would haveloved her.
Gabe Nathan (13:51):
You start to clean that uniform every day.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (13:53):
She was bright, she was creative, she
was an interesting person, shehad a good sense of humor, like
all of those things were trueabout her.
So what was interesting aboutyou know, and kind of validating
and actually kind of freed meup maybe I wouldn't go as far as
forgiving perhaps, but to kindof be able to move away from it
(14:14):
in a way was that dealing withthe hoarding house sort of was
validation.
This was always there.
I mean, there was always a messinside.
And now everybody knew thatthere was a mess inside and that
this was reality.
Even in my own family, I thinkmy sister was in denial about
some of the ways that my motherbehaved and was, because she
(14:35):
behaved differently with mysister than she did with me.
And you know, I think there wassomething kind of freeing about
like yeah, this is reality,it's not pretty, is?
Gabe Nathan (14:44):
this the sister that you messaged from the house
saying like you'll never sleepagain.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (14:48):
Yes, yeah, the sister I grew up with.
Gabe Nathan (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, you'll never sleep again.
Yes, yeah, the sister I grew upwith.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I?
To go back to what you weresaying about right-sizing
emotions, I'm very curious, assomeone who has these two career
paths, which are similar insome some ways and also not in
(15:13):
others, which one of them helpedyou kind of right-size your
emotions?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (15:21):
That's a great question.
Gabe Nathan (15:22):
Maybe they both did or in certain ways.
But I mean, I'd love to hearyou explore that.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (15:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think both, in a way, Like Ibecame, you know they're both
callings for me being apsychologist and being a writer,
and you know.
So both careers have kind ofnurtured each other in a sense.
And I think, you know, part ofmy promotion for the book is
(15:47):
like how could I be apsychologist and deal with it
this way, Like how can I have asituation like this as a
psychologist?
Because we have this idealizedidea of, like mental health
professionals, being able tocope with anything.
Gabe Nathan (15:58):
Well, please you don't have to worry about that
on the show.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (16:03):
Yes, but you know, but I think there
is sort of that mythology aboutsomehow and curiosity about like
well, so why didn't you dealwith it?
Why didn't you deal with itsooner?
Why couldn't you have donesomething different?
And I think that being able towrite about it was not cathartic
.
If we think about puttingtogether the book.
(16:24):
The book is a work of art.
What was cathartic is every day.
When I came back from that damnhouse, I sat down and I
journaled, because journalinghas always been something that's
helped me process the worldaround me.
I have I'm, up to 71 journals.
I have like, so like.
When you talk about thevisceral reaction of like
certain scenes in the book andbeing in that scene, a lot of
(16:45):
that material came right out ofmy journal.
I mean edited and, you know,shaped for the book.
But that raw material is, youknow, did help me make sense of
it and you know, and I think,trying to understand that, and I
think this is an importantpoint about hoarding disorder.
It's a mental illness.
(17:06):
I mean it became a DSMdiagnosis in 2013.
The statistics are startlingabout it.
It's one in 40 people in thiscountry experience a.
You know, there's differentlevels of it.
My mom was kind of DEFCON fivebut you know, from minimal
clutter to like full-on, youknow crisis like we were in with
my mom, but it's a hugepercentage of people I mean it's
(17:28):
a higher number of people thanpeople who are diagnosed with a
major mental illness, likeschizophrenia.
So it's like when you and it'snot discussed, there's so much
shame and so much hiddenness andsecrecy about it that you know
people just don't realize, orthey kind of know but they don't
really know.
Gabe Nathan (17:50):
Or, like you know, as a suicide awareness advocate.
I think a lot of people look atit the same way.
That won't happen to me, right,that's someone else.
That'll happen to someone else,or maybe my.
The guy that I went to, youknow, sat behind in sixth grade,
you know, took his own life at40, whatever, okay, that's him,
(18:11):
it will never be me.
I think that it's almostimpossible for the brain to
process and conceive that sceneslike you're describing could
possibly be my mother's house ormine, until it's happening, you
know, just like suicide, untilit hits, hits.
It's like oh my god, my family,me.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (18:35):
Well, and it's such a complicated
diagnosis, gabe like we don't myfield does not understand it
well it used to be consideredrelated to obsessive compulsive
disorder and now it's morethought about in relation to
addictive disorders in terms of,like you know, and anxiety
disorders and depression.
Often what kicks it off isgrief and loss, so there's a
(18:58):
trauma component.
There was definitely thatcomponent with my mom and my
family and you know, if you lookat you know it's not understood
well how to treat it because wedon't really understand how it
happens.
Gabe Nathan (19:12):
Also like suicide, another.
What do we understand about it?
What do we know about it?
How do we prevent it?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (19:18):
Right and you know, and like with
suicide, there's been tremendousstrides, I think, in the last
10 years in suicide awarenessand kind of understanding and
talking about like, okay, theseare things that help or these
are things that you know canchange that outcome.
I think with hoarding disorder,one of the issues is that it's
(19:39):
one in 40 in the regularpopulation, but in the elderly
population there's like 2% inthe general population, it's
like 6% in the elderlypopulation.
So what you really have arepeople you know my age or our
age, who are cleaning out theirparents' houses and stepping
into a situation where theirparent has begun hoarding.
They've had a major loss,they've had cognitive
(19:59):
difficulties, they've struggledwith depression, maybe physical
limitations, and now suddenlythey can't cope and now suddenly
things are spiraling out ofcontrol.
Now suddenly things arespiraling out of control, and so
that's another piece of this aswell.
You know my mom, you know,built this wall.
(20:20):
You know this house was kind ofa wall between her and the
world and she went out into theworld but the world did not come
into that house.
Gabe Nathan (20:28):
She went out in the Camry filled with shit also.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (20:31):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, house.
Gabe Nathan (20:33):
Well, she went out in the Camry filled with shit
also.
So yeah, the car was like thattoo.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (20:38):
Well, and also, you know I have to
laugh because we, as we finishedcleaning out the house, the
next door neighbor who had beenincredibly helpful to my mom and
had done a lot of stuff for her, when she wouldn't let my
sister and I do it, came overand was like oh, and, by the way
, like your mom put a few thingsin our garage.
I was just like it's actuallyvery common, you know, people
(21:00):
buy a storage unit or they buyan additional house or they, but
like you know, the neighbor hadlet her like store stuff in the
attic and by the time that washappening the stuff was so weird
that she was keeping.
It was like very, very strangestuff.
Like you know, I couldn't sortof understand.
You know you can sort of see thearchaeology of the hoard and
(21:21):
sort of the different timelines.
You know there was kind of thepre-my grandmother's death
hoarding and then there was thepost-grandmother's death
hoarding and it looked verydifferent.
And you know I I wasn't joking,I think in the book at one time
I say to my sister you know,looks like a serial killer lives
here, but it's like thehoarding equivalent of a serial
killer, you know yeah, and justas taboo, feeling um, um, that
(21:51):
that increase of awareness inthe last 10 years or so, um, was
that part of the motivation?
Gabe Nathan (22:00):
I mean, it sounds like a dumb question but I'm I'm
assuming that was part of themotivation for writing the book,
helping move that needle umtowards you know, decloaking
shame and just saying, like thisshit is happening, this
happened to me.
I can talk about it, and notonly just talk about it, but in
an eloquent, moving way.
(22:20):
I'm assuming that was part ofthe motivation.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (22:23):
Well, I think you know there was a
version of this book that Iwrote and tried to get a
literary agent around in like2014.
And what was interesting isthat in 2014, I had decided that
I wasn't going to write aboutmy mother until she died, like I
had pretty much made thatagreement with myself that I
wasn't going to write about it.
And you know it's interestingbecause you know every literary
(22:46):
agent and you know that saw themanuscript was like you know the
writing's great, this is abeautiful book, it's like, but
there's something missing.
And you know I couldn't tellthe story because we hadn't been
in the house.
I could speculate, I mean Icould sort of include her in the
story, but it really until 2016, when we went into that house
and what happened after thecleanout was, I decided it was
(23:09):
my story.
I decided this is my story andI can tell this story.
The story needs to be told andin fact, in a weird way, the
hoarding, you know, organizedthe book I had been struggling
with, like kind of what is the,you know, kind of narrative
through-line in this book, andthe hoarding provided that
structure.
So you know, ironically, thedisorganization and the chaos of
(23:34):
that house and of the situationyou know kind of helped me make
sense of my family in a way.
It helped me sort of put ittogether in a different way than
I had thought about it before.
And my mom was alive when Ifinished this book.
So actually today is thetwo-year anniversary of her
death and you know, she died inJuly of 2023, and 2023 was a
(24:02):
terrible year.
But right before, one of thetwo or three good things that
happened that year was thatright before my oldest my
sister's oldest daughter gotmarried in September, I found
out that I had won this prize,and the irony of this prize is
that it's named after the AuroraPolaris Prize.
My mother loved astronomy andspace and all of that and I
(24:25):
couldn't help but kind of thinkthat there was a little bit of a
you know an okay from her aboutthe book because of that Starry
magic.
Yeah, it was kind of strange,but she'd be mad at me about
telling the secret.
But my mom was always reallysupportive of my writing.
(24:47):
So in a weird kind of way, I'vewondered if she knew that I was
writing it, because up untilthe time that, like 2016, 2017,
we always talked about mywriting and I shared stuff with
her and stuff, but then, after Istarted working on the book, I
didn't really talk with her muchabout it.
Our relationship had changed,and so I always wondered though
(25:08):
I mean, my mother was a verysmart and intuitive woman in
many ways and that on some levelshe knew I was writing it, but
she never asked and we nevertalked about it well, and that
goes back to the whole thingabout we don't talk about things
, and I mean that resonates hardwith me.
Gabe Nathan (25:27):
I'm very much from a family we don't talk about it.
Family, which, of course, hasput with me I'm very much from a
family we don't talk about it.
Family which, of course, hasput me on a path to writing on
Medium and writing on Substackand being a mental health
advocate and not shutting thefuck up as an act of resistance
and rebellion.
That's what happens.
It's the same thing as raisinga child in a puritanical family
(25:52):
and super strict.
They're going to go out and dowhatever as soon as they can.
It has to get out.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (26:00):
Yeah, well, you know the old thing.
You know, we're only as sick asour secrets, right, like there
are things that are private.
The things that are secretsgenerally are not so healthy in
families.
You know, privacy is one thing,secrecy is something else.
Gabe Nathan (26:17):
Yeah, well, hopefully my mother's listening.
I have a question related tothe comment.
You said that sometimes you getcomments from people about you
know, you being a mental healthclinician, and how did you not
know and why didn't youintervene?
(26:37):
Just to share a little personalthing I think I mentioned to
you in an email I used to workat a psychiatric hospital in
Norristown.
I used to work at a psychiatrichospital in Norristown and as a
staff member I noticed prettyquickly how fucked up we all
(26:58):
were and how struggling we allwere and losing ourselves in
this fight against serious andpersistent mental illness and
recidivism and assaults and allof that stuff.
And when I first startedworking there, I was like I am
going to come in here from 7 to3 and do my job and keep my head
down and get the fuck out ofhere and I'm not going to get
attached to these people.
(27:19):
And of course, that didn'thappen.
And I got very, very attachedto folks who I worked with in a
trauma bonding crisis crazy way,probably very unhealthy, but it
happened and as a theater major, I was looking for a way to
(27:41):
bring us together and so Istaged this production of Our
Town with the staff.
We rehearsed for four monthsfrom seven to 10.
Nurses worked seven A to sevenP.
They would race to the theaterand put the show on in december
of 2015, twice for the community.
And, and I ended up giving atalk at the international
thornton wilder conference aboutdoing our town in this
(28:02):
environment with these peopleand talked about how it changed
us and what it was like, and,and you know, gave this
20-minute talk and was answeringquestions.
Someone said I don't rememberanything.
Anybody said, except this oneperson.
Of course, it's always the oneperson who said oh so you did
(28:23):
this for you and the staff, whydidn't you do it for the
patients?
And I like, immediately I feltso hurt and so like, so guilty.
Like, of course I should havedone it for the patients.
What the fuck?
What was I thinking right, likehow could I, as a mental health
professional, been soinsensitive to these folks who
(28:46):
are so clearly suffering and aredeprived of their rights and
302 and all the rest of it, andwe have keys and we can come and
go as we please and all of thatstuff.
But I felt so ashamed and soguilty and I wonder if those
comments and questions like thatdoes that hurt you?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (29:12):
Does it feel like you know?
I don't actually, because Ithink part of it is about you
know mental health.
Folks have some mythologyaround themselves about you know
kind of you know trying to kindof hold onto a facade about
things, and I think you know ifyou're you know to be a healthy
(29:35):
person, you know working in thisfield, you know you're doing
your own therapy, you're lookingat your own stuff.
There's not a human on theplanet that doesn't have, you
know their own baggage.
There's a line in the book thatI use in therapy a lot with
people where I say you know thegoal in life is not to go
through life carrying a steamertrunk of your you know shit and
your old stuff, but to becarrying a small carry-on of it
(29:59):
Because you're never going toget rid of it.
You're always going to haveyour own stuff and so you know
the people not understanding orpeople kind of you know.
I was at a book group andsomebody said you know my family
, we never would have like letmy mother alone for that long.
The sisters would have beenthere, the kids would have been
there, like everybody would havebeen there.
(30:20):
And you know, and I was likethat is a cultural like it was
really interesting because westarted talking about the
cultural implications of thisthat you know, in you know kind
of WASP families where there'ssecrets and you know that kind
of thing and shame, and you knowit's a different kind of
cultural milieu than a differentfamily, like you know, and you
(30:41):
know this person had grown up ina large, you know, Irish
Catholic family with, like youknow, a lot of everybody was
sort of in everybody else'sstuff and you know.
So I think trying to understandpeople's you know questions
about this stuff is coming fromtheir own curiosity and sort of
you know, like I think it's awonderful, our town was actually
(31:03):
one of my mother's favoriteplays.
We took her to see it in NewYork and I think it's, like you
know, for the staff in thatenvironment is a very cool thing
be able to do with them whatyou did, because I think in
order to work with patients,people working with patients
need those creative outlets andthose ways to express themselves
(31:25):
, because that's how you stayreal.
Stay real.
Gabe Nathan (31:32):
Thank you, I really appreciate that and I it's.
It's.
It's lovely to remember.
We just had a reunion.
I guess it was 10 years.
It was 10 years in 2024.
And went back to the stage whichis it's on the the grounds of
the state hospital and and it'sum, I don't know, it was kind of
(31:55):
a wild thing.
Um, very cool.
Thank you, um.
But that brings me to a questionabout memory.
For you, um, and you know, Ithink not to speak for you, but
from what I read, a lot of thememories that you have of
(32:17):
Willowbrook Road and from yourchildhood are not great.
Yes, my question is what do youdo with that other than put it
(32:41):
in a book and try to make senseof it and try to make art from
it?
Golly, this is anotherconversation I was having with
my wife.
We talk a lot.
That's good.
I guess it was really stand-upcomedians who really mine trauma
for laughs and how that can beso, so unhealthy, and so I think
(33:03):
, re-traumatizing, and I thinkthere's all kinds of
implications surrounding thatand all kinds of complicated
things related to humor and whatis funny and why.
But I guess from yourperspective, it's a different
thing and I just want to ask youabout that, about, about memory
(33:26):
, and what do we do with that?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (33:28):
I think , a couple things.
I love watching comedy andhumor because I think there's
something so wonderful aboutbeing able to be resilient
enough to create something outof that pain, like you know, I
think most creative people use.
You know, I think one of theuseful things that we can say
(33:49):
about suffering is that if youcan make something out of it,
then maybe it was worthwhile insome way or at least you know,
had a you know something to dowith it other than just the
suffering part.
Right, and one of the thingsthat you know to your point,
like I admire about comedians isthat there's a way of crafting
things, and part of how youcraft things is you're choosing
(34:10):
what you're using to tell thestory.
So one of the things in a lotof memoirs I found is that, like
two pet peeves about memoir Oneis that it often gets soggy in
the middle.
So it was really important forme to make sure that the story
that I was telling was tight andthat you wanted to read it and
keep reading it and you kind ofcouldn't put it down and it
(34:31):
didn't get soggy in the middleand one of the problems with
that soggy in the middle part isthat what's important to me as
a person is not necessarilyimportant to the story and to
what you need to get from thestory.
So, like, particular incidentsmight be really relevant to how
I grew up and what I learned andhow you know what happened, but
(34:53):
they're not relevant to thestory that I'm telling.
So, in a way, you're curating alife.
You know.
I'm curating this part of mylife to tell you about it, and
this part of my life is abouttelling you the story of my
relationship with my mother,where there was a lot of pain
and trauma, and I think I alsotried to include things that
were not always painful, but mymother was not an easy person.
(35:15):
So you know what's in there isin there.
There are some side storiesabout other traumas and loss
that relate to my mother.
Some of that is probably adifferent book.
There are some interestingeditorial choices when I talk
about my fathers and like how Ichose to handle you know that
history with them.
You know.
(35:37):
I think that you know.
So the second piece about memoiris that it's hard to figure out
where to end a memoir right,memoir right.
So when I finished thismanuscript, my mom was still
alive, so the book ended withher being in assisted living and
, you know, making this changein her life and starting to
(35:59):
hoard in her room in assistedliving.
But I think one of thedecisions that got made when
Trio House took the book was youknow, do we include the end
scene with my mom?
You know my mom's death, and itfelt right to do that, to sort
of have the closure and havethat be the end of the story.
(36:21):
So having a sort of more setending and less open-ended
ending was important.
But I think the memory piece isI don't want to traumatize the
reader of the book.
I want the reader to understandhow we got here in the story.
You know, and part of thatstory is telling some of the
(36:43):
things that happened.
You know that were not easythings.
Gabe Nathan (36:49):
So that brings me to another question the balance
between your life as a clinicianand your life as a writer, and
this idea you know we talkedabout, like the therapeutic
facade or the mask that's howthey put it at the hospital.
(37:09):
You have to wear your mask andnot let anything shake you, and
all of that.
But so there's a real dichotomythat I see about professional
distance between yourself andyour patients and then this kind
(37:30):
of obligation as a memoirist toreally put yourself out there,
and that's.
I just want to know how younavigated that and did you
experience like internalconflict with that.
It's a great question what doyou do?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (37:44):
So when I started, so I've always had
two careers right and I'vealways written.
I've written, you know, futurearticles and essays and poetry,
and up until the point when theinternet got really, really big,
it was very easy to keep thingsseparate, like people, wouldn't
?
You know people?
I could be a writer and I couldbe a psychologist and never
(38:05):
between would meet biologistsand never between would meet.
Then, with the advent of theinternet, it got a little bit
different and when I got somebig publications, like in the
New York Times, occasionally,you know, a client would come in
and say that they had readsomething or they had, you know,
and those were my New YorkTimes pieces were mostly
humorous, modern love pieces.
So they were, while they werepersonal, they were kind of more
(38:27):
not like this book, you know, Imean although this book has
humor in it, it's a little bitdifferent.
So when I, you know, I made thedecision to write this book and
I think part of it was trustingthat the universe was going to
be okay with it and that I wouldwork out with whatever clinical
(38:50):
stuff I needed to work out with.
Now I should also say that I'mkind of at a later stage of my
career.
I'm kind of winding down towardretirement.
I'm not retired.
I have a pretty still prettyfull private practice but I'm
not taking new clients.
So that makes it a little biteasier, although I have to say
I'm a little bit sad becausesince I published the book, I've
had a few writers reach out whowanted therapy and I'm kind of
(39:13):
disappointed about not beingable to do that, because I
really enjoy working withcreative people.
Gabe Nathan (39:18):
Refer, refer, refer .
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (39:20):
Yeah, well, I talk to.
It's funny because I sit on thePennsylvania State
Psychological Association'sEthics Committee and I have a
specialty in legal and ethicalissues.
So I think a lot aboutboundaries and about some of the
things that come up withclients and I think that in our
field, when I've taught legaland ethical and I've taught
clinical classes, we don't talkenough about how we use
(39:43):
ourselves in an ethical way.
We sort of, you know, I thinkpeople have this idea of sort of
this therapist mask, you know,and they'll say you know, how
did you feel about that?
Right, like you know, and sortof do the stereotypic therapist
thing.
And I think part of what wehave to teach students is how to
be genuine and to becomfortable in themselves and to
(40:05):
have done enough of their ownwork to be able to be flexible
and be relational and be able tonavigate complicated
interactions with people andmodel how to do that.
So when the book was about to bepublished, the sort of king of
you know, he's kind of the godof ethics in the Pennsylvania,
(40:28):
actually American PsychologicalAssociation, sam Knapp, he's a
wonderful person and he ran, youknow, he worked for on PPA for
a very long time.
He's written numerous booksabout it, and I said to him I
was at an ethics meeting and Iwas like you know, suddenly it
dawns on me I'm a little bitnervous about publishing this
book, like people, likeeverybody's going to read it,
(40:48):
you know, like I don't knoweverybody's going to read it,
you know, like I don't knowwho's going to read it, like I,
you know, and I have clients whoknew about it and people saw it
because it got publicity and soit's been a very interesting
process of kind of you know,some people have brought it up
because it impacted what theyfelt about what was happening in
art therapy, or they identifiedwith a particular part about
(41:11):
the book, like the mother partof the book, or you know some
other aspects of the book.
Or you know kind of talkingabout not wanting to read it
because not wanting to see me asa real person, because of where
they were in their therapy,which also was plenty fine.
You know, like you don't have toread my book, that was not you
(41:32):
know, it's like they would findout about it and they'd be like
I don't want to read your, likethat's fine, don't read my book,
it's good.
But I think you know, just kindof on a case-by-case basis, sort
of talking about that and beingable to say, you know,
everybody has their traumas,everybody has their history, and
it's about what you do withthat.
You know, and you know yourhistory, you know what happened
(42:00):
in my history doesn't impact you, unless it's something that you
feel I won't understand or Iwon't get or maybe I will get or
you know whatever that is andwe'll talk through it, because
it's like any other clinicalissue or thing that comes up in
therapy you just talk about itand you figure it out.
But I will say it's been, it'sactually been lovely in some
(42:23):
ways.
Yesterday got an email from aclient I hadn't seen for
probably I don't know 16 years,who had read the book and had
reached out and sent a lovelyemail about it, and those kinds
of gifts are really nice, youknow, surprising but nice.
Gabe Nathan (42:42):
May they keep coming.
You deserve them, and I thinkthat's part of the wonderful
thing about putting any creativework out into the world.
You know, of course there'sthose ethical implications for
you as a clinician, but just theact of sending out this thing
and having it touch and movepeople and resonate with people,
(43:05):
I think it's extraordinary andvery vulnerable and very giving,
and part of the reason why Iwanted to have you on here is
it's because we have peopledoing that here from all over
the world all the time, and I'vebeen doing this job here since
(43:29):
2016, 15, 16.
And I'm always astonished whenwe get new submissions, new
people who are just willing toput themselves out there, people
in countries where mentalhealth is so, so, so stigmatized
, to the point of it beingdangerous to talk about things.
(43:53):
It's really stunning, and Ithink, too, that there are still
people who have the attitudethat if you're talking about
your mental health, you'reattention seeking or you're like
.
That just blows my mind.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (44:13):
Well, and I think, one of my fears
about this, even when I wasdoing the website, which FYI is
lostfoundkeptcom.
There's a few pictures and someother resources on the website
that people might find helpfulother resources on the website
that people might find helpful.
But I think you know, one of thethings I did not want was you
(44:34):
know this is not an episode ofhoarders.
You know it's not an exploitive.
You know this is about a realstory, with real and not that
those aren't real stories, butthere's a kind of an
exploitation aboutsensationalizing the hoarding
aspect of it and you know it'slike we call them hoarders, not
people who hoard, and it's likeother kinds of mental illness
(44:56):
with that stigma.
It's like you know you aren't ahoarder, you're a person who's
doing the hoarding behavior.
Gabe Nathan (45:02):
Yeah, person first language.
So there are, like mentalhealth advocates I know, who are
trying to reclaim like I'm abipolar, I'm a schizophrenic and
like there's so much hot debatearound person first language.
But I, my personal opinion, ishow can it be anything other?
(45:32):
You are a person first,literally.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (45:37):
Well and I struggle with this as a
mental health professionalbecause I think to your point,
it's good that there's lessstigma about some of this stuff
and there needs to be lessstigma and we need to be able to
speak more freely about it.
But you are not your diagnosis.
You are not.
You know, and you know I'll seeyounger people sometimes and
they'll be like this is who I am.
(45:59):
It's like no, that's somethingthat you deal with, that you've
got, that you cope with.
It's not that there's anythingshameful about it, but you're
more than that.
You're more than your diagnosis.
You're more than your cancerdiagnosis.
You're more than your bipolardiagnosis.
You are a person and I thinkone of the things I really tried
to do with my mom is that shewas an extremely complicated
(46:23):
person and there were somereally wonderful things about
her.
You know her.
Probably partly the mentalillness gave her a kind of
fluidity and a kind of, you know, like purely creative, boundary
merging sort of way of bringingus up Like everything was
magical in a way.
(46:43):
There was so much creativityand so much playfulness and, you
know, and it was a littleatypical.
You know, we had you know, Ijoke because I mentioned it in
the book, but we had thebirthday fairy, like other
people, you know, along withSanta Claus and the Easter Bunny
and whatever else, we had thebirthday fairy and she would
come and bring the presents, youknow, and my mother had a whole
(47:06):
story about how shecommunicated with the birthday
fairy, you know, and my motherhad a whole story about how she
communicated with the birthdayfairy, like, but that kind of
creativity, you know, was also,as a kid, like, incredibly
joyous and incredibly, you know,good, um, in so many ways, um,
but also a little strange, youknow.
So she was all of these things,you know.
(47:28):
She could be mean, she could be, she could be mean, she could
be complicated, she could beangry, she could be difficult,
but she also was very caring andhad this very kind of way of
looking at the world that wasreally kind of magical in some
ways.
Gabe Nathan (47:46):
And when you think about that magic, I think I
don't know.
I think a lot of people aspireto take what's good and hold on
to it and take it and make itinto something new as they get
older.
As you've taken that magic, howdo you sprinkle that through
(48:11):
your world now?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (48:14):
Well, I think I mean I credit my mom
for a lot of my creative.
My mom was a frustrated writer,so I credit her a lot for my
creative.
You know I was an art major.
I went into college thought Iwas going to be a visual art
major.
I mean, I love dance, I lovemusic, I write.
I you know all of that stuffwas stuff she exposed us to
growing up.
And also, you know one of themagical things about her she was
(48:36):
very she didn't get to go tocollege and have the full
academic experience.
She was a registered nurse, soshe did nursing school and she
taught herself a lot of things.
Like I remember, when I wasprobably seven or eight, we
spent a summer where we she had,you know, read everything about
all these different religionsand you know, she's like we're
(48:57):
going to learn about all thedifferent religions and we're
going to go to a service foreach of these kinds of religions
and you're going to see, like,how other people worship God and
, like you know and I look backon that and think, you know,
it's magical in a way but italso, you know, taught us an
incredible amount of empathy andunderstanding.
Like, no, none of my friendsgrew up that way.
They knew about their ownreligion.
(49:18):
They didn't understand otherpeople's religions.
They never thought, you know,they were never taught that
other people's religions are asvalid as your own.
Right, but my mother, like youknow, sort of you know, she had
those values and she wanted tokind of, you know, share those
things and that part of herparenting was really pretty
(49:39):
remarkable.
Like we went, you know, shetook us to children's orchestra
concerts and, like you know,exposed us to things.
You know, and I do talk aboutthat in the book and you know,
and I think you know, despiteher own limitations and her own
struggles, she was able toprovide a lot of that to my
(50:00):
sister and myself, you know, andto her grandkids.
She was a very good grandmother, you know, but I think you know
.
The other question about thisright is that, you know, I think
it's very easy to see people inblack and white.
It's sort of like when I wasangry with her, when I was
dealing with the hoarding housesituation, I mean, it's like
(50:21):
that was all-encompassing andwhile, you know, and I talk
about the scenes where I'mcleaning up the stuff from my
sort of magical childhood orsome of the good interactions
that happen and it's sort oflike having all that stuff
crapped all over literally.
You know, and I think you know,part of health is being able to
(50:43):
hold both of those things.
You know that she was both thisand she was this things.
Gabe Nathan (50:53):
You know that she was both this and she was this.
Yeah, and I think it's that.
It's that nuanced way oflooking at people and the world
and ourselves that's gonna helpget us through.
Um, so so much and for so muchof my life I've struggled with
that black and white thinkingabout myself and about other
people, and the more I've openedup to gray, the better it's
(51:18):
gotten.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (51:18):
Yeah, the richer life is.
I mean, life is much richerwhen you can see the nuances and
you don't have to makejudgments about one way or the
other way.
And you don't have to makejudgments about one way or the
other way.
Yeah, I mean, everything rightnow is kind of pushing us in
those directions and I thinkit's a problem.
Gabe Nathan (51:41):
Yeah, Less polarization, more color, more
nuance and more grace, morenuance and more grace.
The book is called Lost, Found,Kept a Memoir, Deborah
Derrickson-Kostman.
Thank you so, so much.
What a gift this has been.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (51:58):
Thank you for having the conversation.
It's been really fun to talkabout this and a different kind
of slant to it, which has beenreally enjoyable.
I appreciate that game.
Gabe Nathan (52:08):
My pleasure.
You can find the book atlostfoundkeptcom.
Where else Deb?
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (52:14):
You can get it from the Evil Amazon,
and you can also get it frombookshoporg or Trio House Press,
and there's active links on theLost Found Kept website.
If you love it, leave a reviewon Amazon or Goodreads.
It really helps me.
We're going to have an audiobook probably, though not for a
little while, but the contractwas just signed, so there will
(52:36):
be an audio book and there is anebook as well.
And also, if any of yourlisteners have a book group or
are interested in having anauthor come to a book group, I'd
love to do them and I'm happyto come and visit your book
group, and you can find thatinformation on the website as
well.
Gabe Nathan (52:52):
Wonderful, but she is not accepting new clients.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (52:55):
I'm not accepting new clients, sorry.
Gabe Nathan (53:00):
Bummer.
Thank you, Deb.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Deb Derrickson Kossmann (53:03):
You're welcome, Gabe.
Thanks for having me.
Gabe Nathan (53:09):
Thank you again for joining us in conversation
today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so much topsychologist and author Deborah
Derrickson-Kostman.
She is the author of Lost,found, kept a Memoir.
It is the winner of Trio HousePress's inaugural 2013 Aurora
Polaris Creative NonfictionAward.
We are so grateful to Deb forspending some time with us on
(53:33):
Recovery Diaries in depth.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
(53:53):
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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