NAMI asserts that the average length of time between onset of mental health symptoms and reaching out for help is eleven years. That is an excruciatingly long time to be living with mental health challenges without professional help, and the reasons behind why many people wait so long are varied, complex, and understandable. If you are one of those people living in anguish or despair, if you are one of those people who know, deep down, that there is something wrong and that help is desperately needed: this episode of Recovery Diaries in Depth is for you.
Brian Marshall needed help. He was living in throes of a deep, vast depression, not wanting or able to leave his house. His father, a police officer working a side job of painting houses, observed his son suffering. He also observed something else: a stead trickle of children from the neighborhood going into and out of the home that he was painting. One day, Brian's father asked the homeowner why the kids were coming. She said that she was a psychotherapist, working with children who needed help. Brian's father, a good-natured helper of others, but who had difficulty opening up, being vulnerable and expressing himself (like many cops, let alone men, of that era) put those feelings aside and did what he knew was best for his son; he asked this lady for help for Brian.
What ensued was a therapeutic bond between Brian and the therapist, Claire Allen, that would endure for three decades. Brian, who lives with bipolar disorder and depression, knew he wasn't going to make it without help and support. Hospitalized multiple times throughout his life, he has known great stability throughout the last two decades, and he credits much of that stability to the dedicated therapist who saw him through so much of his life.
Brian Marshall, an award-winning journalist, has been twice-published by Recovery Diaries, first for his beautiful tribute to his therapeutic bond with Claire, and, in his second essay, for taking us into the experience of receiving (and benefitting from) ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). Brian's conversation with RDID host Gabriel Nathan is empathic, hopeful, helpful, and uplifting. Brian isn't "cured", and he is currently experiencing challenges navigating the healthcare system; challenges that many of our listeners will identify with, but he is navigating life with strength and resilience. Listen to this candid, inspiring interview, and share it with someone you love; someone who may be waiting, waiting for a sign, that the time to get help is now.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so delighted to have onour show as our guest today
Brian Marshall.
He is an award-winningjournalist over 30 years for
newspapers in Texas and Michigan.
He lives with bipolar disorderand depression and he has
(00:23):
written two essays for RecoveryDiaries one about his experience
with ECT, which iselectroconvulsive therapy, and
the other, which you will readtoday, about his decades-long
therapeutic relationship withhis therapist.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
(00:45):
Thank you, what has changed andwhat new things have emerged?
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
(01:09):
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
(01:33):
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Brian Marshall, welcome toRecovery Diaries In Depth.
It is so, so lovely to have youhere with us.
Brian Marshall (01:46):
Thank you.
It's good to be here and totalk to you.
Gabe Nathan (01:50):
So I just want to peel back the curtain for a
little bit and let our listenersknow that we had some technical
difficulties.
We're starting a full 34minutes late than we had been
scheduled to, and I just want tosay that, as someone who lives
with, uh, generalized anxietydisorder, um it's, it's thrown
(02:12):
me a bit off kilter.
So I'm, um, I'm struggling tokind of get back in the zone and
just be here in the presentmoment with you and be mindful
that, as the saying goes, shithappens and it's okay.
But that's kind of the internalmonologue that's going on in my
head at the moment.
(02:32):
So that's how I am.
How are you at this moment,brian?
Brian Marshall (02:37):
I'm well, thank you.
Things are going well and nomajor complaints.
Things are going well and nomajor complaints.
I still have the ups and downsoccasionally, but I've learned
some coping mechanisms and Ihave a good support group.
Gabe Nathan (03:00):
So I'm pretty well.
That's wonderful, I'm reallyglad to hear it.
And a lot of people talk aboutlife in terms of ups and downs,
but you're someone who liveswith bipolar disorder and so the
phrase ups and downs can be alittle different for someone
living with that mental healthchallenge.
(03:21):
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat that phrase means for you?
Brian Marshall (03:28):
Well, I would say probably for the last 20
years ago I really haven't hadany manic episodes.
So it's mostly dealing with thedepression side of it and I've
been on a pretty even keel.
(03:48):
When it does crop up I kind oflose motivation, energy, I sleep
too much Pretty much thetypical factors that people deal
with when they're depressed.
(04:08):
But I have found that I snapout of it quicker.
I have no qualms aboutmedication and working with my
psychiatrist to adjust it asneeded, and therapy obviously is
a great help.
But it's just the main thingfor me is, I believe, not
(04:36):
panicking.
I have kind of a my psychiatristhas kind of a dramatic case of
bipolar where I mean it canswitch overnight, I can wake up.
You know, I can be having aspell of feeling fine for months
actually, and I can wake up andit's almost like you know, the
chemicals have switched and Ijust feel that you know that
(05:01):
overwhelming feeling ofdepression, that overwhelming
feeling of depression.
And so the key is to not panicwhen that comes on and to use my
tools to deal with it.
Gabe Nathan (05:15):
Has that been an issue for you in the past?
That panic like, oh my God,here it is again and I'm sliding
down this hole into this deepdepression, and how have you
been able to manage that?
Brian Marshall (05:31):
Like I said, I in the past would normally just
kind of wallow in it and keep tomyself not open up of wallow in
it and keep to myself, not openup.
It's very hard for me sometimesto push myself to reach out, um
, not only to the, you know, theprofessionals, um in my life,
(05:56):
but but to friends I have, youknow, a couple friends I can
definitely confide in, but I Ikeep it inward and it just kind
of builds on itself and makes iteven worse.
But I've learned, you know, Ijust simply can't do that.
And also, writing is an outlet.
The therapist I was with formany, many years, decades
(06:21):
actually.
You know I was a journalist.
I'm retired now I stillfreelance.
I've written a couple of books.
Writing for me is a big outlet,therapy in itself.
She always said whatever it is,write a note to somebody,
journal, but just the fingers onthe keys for me is an outlet.
(06:44):
You know, if I don't feel likereaching out immediately to
somebody to talk to, I will tryto put it into words.
Gabe Nathan (06:56):
And that has also helped.
I love that you've alreadybrought up Claire, who was your
therapist for many, many years,several decades and we're
definitely going to be talkingmore about her and she's really
your relationship with her isthe subject of the essay that
you're going to read for us.
That was published on RecoveryDiaries a couple years ago, so
(07:18):
I'm really looking forward tothat, but I have there's so many
things I want to ask you, likeI have questions about writing.
As someone who also lives withmental health challenges and who
loves writing, I have questionsabout that.
I guess I'll start there.
So you've talked about writingas a helpful outlet and a tool,
(07:43):
and I know that you do freelancewriting about animals.
Is that?
Brian Marshall (07:47):
correct.
Yes, yes, I write for amagazine called Animal Wellness.
Gabe Nathan (07:55):
So here's my question Does the writing have
to be related to your mentalhealth for it to be therapeutic,
for it to be an outlet orsomething that's helpful to you,
or can it be writing aboutanything, just the simple act of
writing that you find helpful?
Brian Marshall (08:13):
Yes, I would say it's any kind of writing
Journeying about my feelings andwhat I'm going through is
definitely a key method.
But no, it's just that creativeprocess.
I mean, when I write it'salmost like it's not coming from
(08:37):
my brain and through my handsto the keyboard, it's coming
from somewhere else.
I don't know how to explain it,but it's just such an outlet,
it's such a first.
You know, so long from my oldprofessional career I wrote
every day, sometimes severalstories a day, you know, in the
newspaper business.
So it's, it's just.
(08:59):
You know, it's been a part ofmy life, like I said, and yeah,
just the act.
It can be, it can be anything,um, just that creative process
and just the, just the lettinggo.
Yeah, it doesn't have to beabout mental health, although
that certainly, um, thatcertainly does help as well.
Gabe Nathan (09:23):
That's wonderful.
I'm so glad that you have that,that outlet, and it's something
that you I mean, you'reobviously good at it,
award-winning journalist andsomething that you've done for
for decades now, um but thatit's also helpful to you, no
matter what the subject matteris, Um and I.
You were talking also earlierabout how, when you're feeling
(09:48):
depressed, it can be difficultto open up, and I was thinking
of a couple things related tothat.
And one of the things I wasthinking about is that here at
Recovery Diaries, we get allkinds of analytics and
information about who's comingto the website and who's reading
the essays and, of course,who's submitting the essays and
(10:12):
who's getting published on thesite, and it's overwhelmingly
women.
That's who's.
You know we're predominantlygetting submissions from female
writers.
That's who's getting published,predominantly getting
submissions from female writers.
That's who's getting published.
And so so many of the sitevisitors are women.
And I remember when I first gotyour you've written two essays
(10:37):
for us when I first got yourfirst essay.
Every time I get an essay froma man opening up about their
mental health, I'm almost like adog and I can feel my tail
wiggling a little bit becauseit's so rare.
And when you were talking abouthow difficult it is to open up.
I was wondering if you thinkthat that's like a male thing,
(11:00):
that that's part of what makesit hard for you, all of the
stereotypes and the tropesaround men and opening up about
mental health.
Do you think that thatcontributes to that reluctance
in you?
Brian Marshall (11:15):
I think that is part of it, I think.
In our society, men are taughtor raised to be strong and be
able to handle things on theirown.
And, um, yes, I, I definitelythink it is.
Uh, I, I, I happen to just havethe personality too, though, or
(11:39):
I think, um, you know, I'mdefinitely a not a type A
personality where I love goingand just able to freely express
how I feel, but, yes, I do thinkthat that is part of it for
sure.
Gabe Nathan (12:00):
I'm going to connect another dot.
Your dad was a cop right Rightand a cop right Right and a cop
a long time ago, in an era wherethose kind of beliefs were even
more deeply entrenched, thosebeliefs about men and manhood
and suck it up buttercup andstiff upper lip and that kind of
(12:21):
thing.
What kind of guy was he?
Brian Marshall (12:25):
Oh, he was a great guy.
He was the type of person myfriends used to say wow, my dad
was like yours, just oh, how doI describe him?
Just warm and great sense ofhumor and just accepting of
(12:45):
everybody.
He was my baseball coach inLittle League and the kids just
loved him.
He wasn't all about winning atall costs.
He would make sure every kid onthe team played in every game.
Some of these coaches wouldjust hoping when it all costs
(13:07):
and some kids would sit on abench forever.
But so the players and theparents loved him for that.
Um, just giving him of himselfand, um, you know, as a cop he
was, he was like that.
He, he wasn't in it.
You know he wasn't the monstercoming to cop.
You know to carry a gun and tobe the.
(13:29):
You know, the the forceful, uh,uh, you know, um, you know this
is a lie, you can do it my way.
Whatever he, he would listen topeople.
He was reasonable, but alsoone-on-one.
(13:53):
He did have trouble expressinghis emotions, so it was hard for
me to open up to him.
I would more often go to mymother, but yeah, he was just a
great guy.
I can't say enough to him.
I would more often go to mymother, but yeah, he was just a
great guy.
I can't say enough about him.
I was so lucky to have both ofthem.
Gabe Nathan (14:11):
Yeah, that's so wonderful and he was an integral
part in you getting helpcorrect.
Brian Marshall (14:17):
He actually was for sure.
Would you like me to talk aboutthat now, or wait till I'm
ready to do the essay?
Gabe Nathan (14:24):
Just, share a little bit about it, and yeah,
we'll get to it in the essay tooSure.
Brian Marshall (14:39):
He met a woman by chance and back then, more
often than not, the mother didstay home, be a full-time mother
, not work outside of the home.
And to enable that to happen,he took on side jobs and one of
them was painting homes.
(14:59):
And he happened to be paintingthe home of a woman and he
noticed that there were kidsthat would come and go on their
bikes even to her home.
And he asked one day you know,why are these kids coming to see
(15:22):
you?
And she said well, I'm atherapist and I work with them.
And I will tell you in thatsense, I had just come home, not
that long ago before that, andI was depressed.
I was back living at home, andhe asked her would you see my
(15:45):
son?
And she said, of course.
And that led to three decadesof working with this wonderful
person who changed my life andwas there for me and taught me
the tools, got me to open up, um, told me the tools got me to
open up.
And so, yeah, it was, uh, itwas by chance.
(16:06):
But you know, I totally believesome things are meant to happen
and that's one of them for sure.
Gabe Nathan (16:13):
Yeah, it's hard to argue against that when there's
this just totally random and yetlife changing encounter, and I
love that it was your fatherthat really made that happen,
and what a lifelong gift that hewas able to give to you.
(16:34):
Perhaps unknowingly he may haveas well.
You know Brian needs a littlehelp.
Let's see if this works.
But how could he have known itwould have blossomed into this
decades-long therapeuticrelationship?
It's really extraordinary.
Brian Marshall (16:53):
Yeah, it really is.
Looking back on it, like I said, I really think it was right
place at the right time, and hetalked later about it was
difficult for him.
Like I said, he was, you know,not silent, but he was the
(17:15):
strong I was going to say strong, silent type of person.
But for him to approach her andask her, you know, if she would
see me, he said that was verydifficult for him.
So, yeah, I was very fortuitousfor me.
Gabe Nathan (17:37):
I have two children and they're both 13.
They're twins.
I sometimes think back to whenI was a kid and I was struggling
with my mental health and Iapproached my mother one day I
think I was 10.
And I asked her if I could talkto someone and the response was
(18:01):
oh Gabriel, there's nothingwrong with you.
And there very clearly was.
And I, you know, my mother'sstill living, my father's still
living, and I think about that alot.
And I think about that youngboy and what it took for him to
(18:27):
approach his mother to ask forhelp and it being denied, and I
for a long time was very angryat her.
I didn't get help until I wasin college and I could go get it
myself.
But I think about could my lifehave been very different if I
had gotten help earlier and ifshe had responded differently?
(18:48):
And why did she respond likethat and what the fuck was wrong
with her?
You know.
But I think about what it mustbe like for a parent to know
that their child is strugglingand there's so many different
ways to react to that and somany different things that a
parent carries from their ownchildhood that can inform how
(19:12):
they respond to that and reactto that, and I think I wonder if
my mother was scared, if mymother felt ashamed that she
must have done something wrongfor me to not be okay as a child
and that getting me help wouldbe admitting to that, basically
(19:35):
that this was quote her fault,which of course isn't true.
But I wonder if some of thosefeelings like shame or guilt or
fear were barriers to my gettinghelp earlier.
And then, when I think aboutyour experience with your father
, emotions that he must havebeen struggling with related to
(20:02):
you not being well, related toyou not being well, but then
being able to overcome those andsaying, okay, I feel maybe this
way about Brian and maybe Ifeel responsible or guilty or
scared or whatever, but I'mgoing to put that aside and do
what's right.
(20:22):
I'm just so glad he was able todo that.
Brian Marshall (20:29):
Oh, of course, Oma.
I think in my case it wasobvious.
I was struggling, I didn't wantto leave the house, I was a
apprentice.
Yeah, I don't think it was acase where there was any gray
(20:49):
area or any reason to hesitateto try to get me help.
Gabe Nathan (20:58):
So part of the reason that we do this show,
Brian, is most the vast majorityof our guests are people from
our Recovery Diaries community.
You know people who havewritten essays for us in the
past, people who've been in ourfilms that we make, and you know
we wait a few years to thenbring people on the show to
(21:21):
check in with them and see howthey're doing now, because an
essay is what it is.
It's a snapshot in time, sameas a film.
You make the film in 2016, andthen you put it out there and
then life happens to people, andso I'm very curious to hear
(21:45):
about how you're doing now, whatyour day-to-day experience is.
You know how you're doing withyour mental health recovery now,
now, so can you tell us alittle bit about that?
Brian Marshall (22:01):
Yes, doing much better.
Like I said, the depression isinevitable.
It comes no matter what's goingon in my life.
Things could be going great but, like I said, I can feel it.
(22:26):
Sometimes it's overnight, but Ihave learned.
That's still a huge hurdle, butI will immediately.
I have one friend in particularwho I talk to often.
I've actually known since I wasin college.
(22:47):
We actually dated and, ofcourse, lost track of each other
for many, many years and I justkind of looked her up, found
her on the internet, and thiswas probably six, seven years
ago and we connected.
We had a great relationshipthen.
She's very oh, she's had a lotof life experiences herself and
(23:14):
is very in tune with me, knowsmy whole history.
So that's like the first step Iwill take.
I'll reach out to her, I won'thesitate, and then usually
she'll still have to convince meto reach out to my therapist
and or doctor.
So I just believe my copingtechniques have grown and have
(23:42):
gotten better and allowed me todeal with it when it does come
on Now.
Reaching out doesn't snap me outof the depression.
It will stay with me for awhile, but because I'm able to
reach out, it won't reach thedepths that it used to, reach
the depths that it used to Fromthe time.
(24:03):
My first onset of depressionwas when I was 19 and it was
just horrible.
I didn't know what washappening to me.
And then, through my 30s and40s probably from 19 through my
30s and 40s, probablyhospitalized six or seven times
(24:23):
In the last 20, 15, 20 years Ihaven't been.
I believe that's because, youknow, I've been able to get over
that stigma of I have to bestrong.
I have to deal with this, youknow, by myself and, like I said
before, I would just wallow init and it would get worse.
So, yeah, just reaching out toher and I also have a great
(24:49):
family that are aware ofeverything I've been through my
one sister in particular I cantalk to and then, like I said,
that will, and then, like I said, that will prompt me lead me to
reach out to the professionalsin my life.
So, yeah, as far as that goes,it's in a much better place.
There's nothing I can do I'veaccepted that to stop the
(25:16):
chemical changes that willinevitably lead to depression,
but it's how I deal with it thathas made the difference and
allowed me to live a much betterday-to-day life.
So that's the gist of it, justfrom me reaching out.
Gabe Nathan (25:38):
Yeah, and it's wonderful that you have those
people in your life that you'reable to do that with and that
you feel safe and comfortableand confident to do that, to be
able to reach out Again, knowingthat it doesn't cure anything
but it helps give you supportand relief and release and
validation.
(25:58):
It's just so, so important.
And you were talking aboutmaking the connections to the
professionals in your life, butI know that you have been
experiencing some issues withquote big system healthcare and
some frustrations there, and Iwould love you to just talk
(26:22):
about that a little bit.
If you're comfortable doingthat, sure.
Brian Marshall (26:27):
Yes, I'm still in the midst of that, my
psychiatrist.
Actually, I was with apsychiatrist who was wonderful
too for about 25 years and heretired almost the same time
that my therapist did.
I call them the dream teambecause he was just fantastic as
(26:48):
well.
And um, so I found anotherpsychiatrist and, uh, we worked
pretty well together and heretired about five years ago, I
would say.
And I found another one thatdid not go as well.
(27:13):
It went well for a while, butit did not go as well.
So I decided to change justfairly recently, a few months
back.
So I decided to change justfairly recently, a few months
back, and I made an appointmentand I went believing I was going
to see the psychiatrist, and itturned out that the first
appointment was called an intake, where I sat down and spoke to
(27:36):
a person and it wasn't justfilling out forms, it was fairly
detailed about my history andit was an hour long session.
I thought, okay, well, that'sgreat, I'll see the psychiatrist
next time.
Made an appointment, I'mtalking.
A couple more weeks went by.
The next appointment was and Iwasn't told this up front that
(27:57):
it was a several-layered systembefore I actually saw a
psychiatrist.
The next appointment was with acaseworker of all things which
I didn't need A caseworker, aseven she said was, you know, to
make sure I had shelter, I hadfood.
So I met with her and then madeanother appointment, and I'm
(28:27):
still.
That was a month away and I'mstill a couple of weeks away
from that, and this time I said,okay, I've got to get an
understanding of what thesystem's like and what's going
on and what the next step is.
So I reached out and Idiscovered that my next
appointment is with thepsychiatrist, but they call it a
psych evaluation.
(28:47):
It's almost like I have toprove that I have a mental
illness and so in the meantimeI've had to rely on my primary
physician to prescribe my psychmedications, which she has done,
but she's been somewhathesitant, especially when she
(29:09):
had to do it for a second time,and I'm actually going to have
to reach out to her for a thirdtime, since this next
appointment will not involverefilling my psych medication.
So it's been very frustratingand I'm actually I decided
(29:32):
yesterday I'm actuallyconsidering foregoing that
system and having my primary,which she hasn't mentioned in
the past that she will do fillmy psych medication, since, you
know, now you see a psychiatrist.
It's not therapy, it's calledmedication review.
(29:54):
You see them for five, tenminutes, so I can go without
that if.
I have to.
I can rely on my therapist formy everyday situation and
problems.
So, yes, it's been veryfrustrating.
I'm not the only person,obviously, going through this,
(30:18):
because that's the way they'reset up.
So, yes, frustrating.
Gabe Nathan (30:24):
Well, you're getting nothing but empathy here
and that's the way I've beendoing it for years is having my
GP prescribe me myantidepressant and anti-anxiety
medication because of preciselythese issues.
And many general practitionersare very reluctant to do this.
They do not want to getinvolved with psych meds.
(30:48):
They really are uncomfortableabout it.
So many psych meds carry thatblack label warning about
suicide because,counterintuitively, a lot of
psychiatric medications carrythat risk of increasing suicidal
ideation and so they don't wantto touch it.
(31:10):
And you're lucky in thatrespect that you have a GP who's
willing to do it.
I am as well that.
Mine is like look, you've beenstable on this medication for so
long.
I feel comfortable justprescribing it for you as long
(31:31):
as you're still in therapy,which of course I am, which of
course you are.
But when I think about theseissues going on in managed care,
the immense level offrustration, and I'll even call
(31:53):
it sabotage because you'restable, you're on a medication
or medications that are clearlyworking for you, and simply
because your practitionerretires or moves or closes their
practice or whatever, it is allof a sudden that stability that
you've built up is jeopardized.
(32:13):
And who's jeopardizing it aremental health professionals.
Um, and the reason?
It's simply because they wantto cover their own asses.
So they've put all thesebarriers in place and all these
protective layers for themselves, which are incredibly
(32:35):
frustrating and often dangerous,I think, for patients.
It's really a shame that youand so many others are going
through that, and I guess thelast thing I want to say about
it is that living with mentalillness is really hard.
I mean, it's an obviousstatement, but then when these
(32:58):
obstacles are put in front ofyou, it's making things even
harder than they have to be forpeople who are already having a
hard time.
Brian Marshall (33:08):
Oh, absolutely, and you're absolutely right.
The system I'm not saying therearen't exceptions, obviously
there are still psychiatristswho will see you on the first
visit, but it's getting fewerand fewer between, I think.
(33:33):
And also insurance companiescome into play, because Sure,
insurance companies come intoplay because my insurance
company did a great job oflocating some psychiatrists that
I could reach out to.
Gabe Nathan (33:50):
You know there were only a handful, I did reach out
(34:11):
to and it's been, like I said,frustrating and strongly
considering, as you had done,just having my primary physician
prescribe my medicationsbecause of that reason.
Well, and the frustrations thatyou're experiencing now with
these clinicians are totallywarranted, and I guess now would
be a good time to move to atime when you were better
(34:32):
supported and managed care andthe big health system wasn't a
part of your life and you werereceiving much more direct and
empathic care.
So let's turn our attention,let's go in the Wayback Machine
for your essay.
It's called Decades-LongRelationship with Therapist
(34:53):
Truly a Gift by Brian Marshall,and we are ready for it when you
are.
Brian Marshall (34:58):
After a sudden, crushing depression, I
discovered, by fate I willforever believe a person that
would provide guidance, sincerecaring and a unique connection
that would help shape my lifefor 30 years.
That person was apsychotherapist yes, a deaf
provider of that personalone-on-one relationship that
(35:19):
fosters, ideally, an atmosphereof sharing innermost thoughts
and emotions and of facingroadblocks in the aim for
clarity and happiness.
Finding such a person, ofcourse, can be difficult, and
the right connection is alwaysvital to success.
Many try therapy with one ormore professionals before giving
(35:41):
up, frustrated that the giveand take necessary for
enlightenment is lacking.
I was fortunate to enjoy a mostunique and rewarding experience
.
I found the perfect therapy anda partner merely by chance, and
this is what we had discussedearlier.
After a brief bout of depressionupon graduating from high
(36:03):
school, I had gone five yearsquote in remission from any sort
of depression, as I thoroughlyenjoyed college, and three years
of being welcomed into awonderful group of coworkers and
friends in Texas.
I am sure now that my bipolardisorder was simply taking time
off.
I was not on medication, notseeing a therapist and just
(36:26):
enjoying life.
I am also sure that my relapsewas triggered by situational
factors.
I gave up a job.
I loved sports writing becausemy girlfriend lived two hours
away.
I took a job selling furniturewhich I loathed every morning as
(36:47):
I got ready to go to the store.
I became engaged to Stacy aftera year when I realized that
Texans, because of pride andlove of their wonderful state,
rarely leave Texas, reality hits.
I was very close to my familywho resided many states away in
(37:08):
Michigan.
I would only see them onoccasion the rest of my days if
I dove into my new life in theSouthwest.
Those two factors selling outprofessionally and foregoing the
wealth of happiness and newlife in the Southwest those two
factors signing upprofessionally and foregoing the
wealth of happiness forged overa lifetime resulted in a deep
(37:28):
depression and a hospital stay.
They quickly had a moment ofclarity.
I had to go home, stacey, and Ididn't actually break up.
I was ill and was only going toget better, surrounded by
family.
She understood and stayed by myside.
(37:51):
I called my father, my heroalways, and I told him that I
needed to come home.
An immediate sense of relieffollowed when he replied okay,
when do that I needed to comehome?
An immediate sense of relieffollowed when he replied okay,
when do you want me to come?
My father flew to Texas ASAP.
(38:11):
Actually, it was the next day.
We were to drive the 24 hoursto Michigan.
We did so in two days and narya word was said.
My father was a strong type whokept his emotions in check.
I felt safe and secure sittingnext to him, but feelings of
(38:36):
embarrassment, failure and fearkept me from discussing my
feelings and, of course, thedepression that I was feeling.
Once back in the bedroom inwhich I grew up, I wallowed in
anguish, totally withdrawn frompeople and the world, no
direction, no motivation and waytoo much restless sleep.
(38:57):
Then came my introduction toClaire Allen.
My father was a police officer,not one of the macho quote look
I've got a gun cops but one whocared about people and often
was utilized in domestic strifesituations.
My friends loved him.
(39:18):
He was big on humor but didn'treveal his emotions.
He held jobs on the side.
He was painting the home of awoman when he noticed a steady
stream of bike-riding youngstersdropping by, spending a spell
inside of them, pedaling awayWith his troubled son.
At home.
My father built up the courageto ask the woman about the kids
(39:43):
and she told him that she was apsychotherapist that worked with
the kids at the behest of theirparents.
My father explained that hisson was very depressed and asked
whether she would see him.
Of course, just have him calland we'll set up a meeting, ms
Allen said.
My father told me years laterthat asking for help was one of
(40:06):
the most difficult conversationshe'd ever had.
Agreeing to go to therapy.
I soon discovered that thiswoman had a spirit and positive
aura that awakened me, albeitslowly, aura that awakened me,
albeit slowly.
I returned weekly at first, and, while there were some quiet
(40:26):
sessions, I was able to get to aplace where I could truly begin
to address the real issues andemotions that had rendered me
emotionally frozen.
Claire Allen, a heavilyeducated psychologist, had been
helping clients find healingdirection and hope for many
years.
She moved from a busy officesetting to hold sessions from
(40:49):
her home in a tree-lined, cozyarea in Michigan.
What would proceed over thenext 30 years would be an
(41:12):
incredible journey ofself-inspection, learned coping
techniques and unearthingconfidence in self-esteem that
had been whittled away by my ownperceived failings.
It got to the point where MsAllen could read my face as I
entered the room.
What's happened?
Or glad to see you're feelingbetter, I'd plunk down into a
chair and we would go to workAll the usual things family, my
(41:32):
current state of mind.
She would offer instantrecognition to whatever plight
may have emerged.
Able to cut through pretensebecause of our valued chemistry.
Able to cut through pretensebecause of our valued chemistry.
She helped me stop agonizingover what others thought of me.
Instead, she reminded me of themany people in my life who
respected and loved me.
We role-played, we examinedwhat-if scenarios and I learned
(42:00):
to avoid harmful triggers.
Mostly, though, it was those 45minutes in which our growing
therapist-client relationshipblossomed.
There were a handful ofhospitalizations over the years
when the chemicals in my brainshifted, bringing on severe
depression.
Always, however, there was mytrusted ally to steady the ship,
(42:23):
slow me down and get me to digdeep.
She showed me how the pastshaped the present, but that the
only thing that mattered waswhat I would do to make the
present and future better.
She had a database into my mindwithout needing a file.
Ms Allen would meet some of ourfamily members she knew so well
(42:47):
, as portrayed in our sessions.
No one in my life went withoutexamination in those sessions.
If only they knew she actuallyattended some of my children's
milestones and was sought out bymore than one family member
during trying times.
(43:09):
Ms Allen, semi-retired, when Iwas in my mid-50s about 10 years
ago.
It had been a couple of yearssince I checked in with her.
I was going through a roughtime and felt I needed to reach
out.
In a five-minute conversationshe gave me orders that I heard
often through the years.
Write, she said you must writeJournal, or even if it's a note
(43:34):
to someone, write a note.
To me, as a journalist, writingwas more than a profession.
It was therapeutic for me andso I did.
I wrote her thanking her forbeing there for me through all
my life's trials and joys, forforming a bond that to this day
prompts me to ask what wouldClaire say when I am met with
(43:58):
the latest of life's challenges?
And I wrote this.
I hope it inspires others to atleast consider finding help
when strife is ripe.
Gabe Nathan (44:14):
Thank you so much for reading that piece.
It is a delight and very, veryheartwarming.
I think that so many people arescared of therapy that NAMI,
(44:35):
the National Alliance on MentalIllness, puts out a lot on
social media and it says thatthe average length of time
between onset of mental healthsymptoms to the person actually
seeking help is 11 years.
(44:56):
Wow, that's an astonishinglength of time between knowing
there's something going on andactually getting help, and I
think there's so many reasonswhy people wait that long, but I
think one of them is thatpeople are scared of therapy and
therapists and they have thesearchaic or problematic beliefs
(45:17):
about what therapy is going tobe like.
Or they see things ontelevision or film that are not
accurate or are like horrorstories or just give the wrong
impression.
Antidote to that, because itreally shows what is possible
(45:42):
and just this really beautifuldepiction of this helpful,
hopeful relationship.
So thank you for sharing that.
On our publication.
Brian Marshall (45:54):
Oh, absolutely.
And you know I found OC87 justsearching around the internet
and I was so taken with theessays and people who opened up
and that's what prompted me tosend my essay to you up and
(46:21):
that's what prompted me to sendmy essay to you.
I still read the essays andeveryone I read, you know I
gained a new insight.
It seems like there's so manydifferent real life issues and I
(46:45):
was so glad that you acceptedmine.
And, yeah, I just, and Ibelieve also, you know there's
that stigma when you know I'mnot crazy, I don't need a
therapist.
Well, I just think everybody atsome point can use somebody to
(47:09):
talk to, and it doesn't have tobe a therapist, it can be a
friend.
But you know therapists aretrained, you know they do what
they do for a reason and to findone that you're compatible with
.
I don't mean to go off your ownagenda.
Not at all After she, miss Allenretired.
(47:32):
I had a hard time.
I saw a couple of therapistsand I just didn't feel like
there was that connection.
I probably held on to I have astandard after what I had
experienced and then finally Ifound one who.
We have things in common.
(47:52):
We start almost every sessiontalking about our love of the
Detroit professional sportsteams and we just kind of go
from there, um.
So yeah, like you said, I thinkthere are so many reasons, um,
and and it's a shame because youknow, I, I know firsthand and
(48:19):
listening to you, you know forTam, what that give and take can
do for you.
So, yeah, I wish you know morepeople would reach out when
they're feeling that you knowthese hurdles in their life are
(48:40):
so hard.
Gabe Nathan (48:42):
And so hard, so much harder to overcome and deal
with alone.
And that's the.
I think that's the real cruxhere is that you don't have to
do it alone.
You know there are trainedprofessionals out there who can
be helpful, and some of themaren't, to be very honest, and
(49:02):
some of them might be helpful tosomeone but not to someone else
.
It might just not be the rightconnection, but you can try
again.
And you know I'm on my 15th yearwith my therapist, so I'm very
much in your boat.
I hit it out of the park withmy first one, not counting the
(49:27):
therapist I saw at the collegecounseling center, but my first
one in the real quote adultworld.
That's who I'm still with andI'm very, very, very lucky, um,
but it doesn't happen that wayfor everyone.
But you, you really can find agood match and I'm really glad
that you said what you said alsoabout how, when Claire retired,
(49:51):
that it was a struggle for youand I can only imagine mourning
that, the loss of thatrelationship and having to try
to establish something withsomeone new who does not have
that foundation and that coreunderstanding of you and who.
You are really building thatfrom the ground up.
(50:15):
I think you deserve a lot ofcredit for trying a couple and
realizing okay, this isn'tworking out, but you have found
a match.
Is it the same?
No, but you're getting what youneed and that's really great.
Brian Marshall (50:34):
Yes, I read something that put it kind of in
perspective.
When you're seeking out atherapist, you are actually
hiring them, which also meansthis one's harsh, but you can
(50:55):
stop seeing them seek someoneelse.
But I just hope that people, ifthey do have a bad experience
or just simply don't feel likethey can open up to a therapist,
will not give up, will try toseek someone else but it's your
life, it's your decision Insteadof just keep seeing them all
(51:18):
the time or right, but it's yourlife, it's your decision.
Gabe Nathan (51:19):
Instead of just keep seeing them all along, or,
right yeah, continuing thesessions, throwing money away
and having it not work, orleaving and going well, therapy
is clearly not for me.
No, that therapist may not havebeen for you, but I have seen
it where people kind of throwthe baby out with the bathwater.
(51:40):
They have a bad experience witha therapist and go well, I knew
this wasn't going to work.
I knew therapy wasn't for me.
Try again, and you're awonderful model for that that
you had this wonderfuldecades-long relationship.
It ended as all do, but youwere able to pick up with
(52:04):
someone else and it's a veryimportant reminder that you can
do that.
Whatever the reason is for atherapeutic relationship ending
Right right.
Brian Marshall (52:16):
And therapy isn't for everybody.
Butically, you know.
Gabe Nathan (52:20):
We see what happens so many times yeah, yeah, and
(52:48):
it doesn't have to be, it reallydoesn't, um.
So I'm just so grateful to you,um, and you know, particularly
as a caucasian male, in your agebracket that's the highest
demographic for suicide.
So you're really a model, notjust for help seeking, but for
(53:14):
also being open and vulnerableand putting yourself out there
and telling your story, and I'mtelling you right now that helps
people.
It helps people to see you inyour author's photo looking very
dapper and debonair, with yourwhite hair and being a male of
(53:37):
that demographic, combatingstigma and saying there's
nothing wrong with going totherapy, with taking meds and
telling your story, and I thinkyou deserve a lot of credit.
Brian Marshall (53:50):
It's the next game.
I appreciate that.
I really do.
It's the truth.
Gabe Nathan (53:54):
And that's what I'm going to send you on your way
with Brian Marshall.
I'm so, so grateful to you forbeing a part of our Recovery
Diaries community, for coming tous not once, but twice, with
two published essays on our site, and for being such a wonderful
guest on the show.
I'm so, so grateful to you.
Brian Marshall (54:12):
Oh, I enjoy it and thank you for what you do,
for being such a great advocatefor mental health.
Gabe Nathan (54:21):
Thank you, wishing you all the very best.
Thank you, thank you again forjoining us in conversation today
.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
What an absolute joy getting tospend some time with two-time
Recovery Diaries author BrianMarshall, award-winning
(54:48):
journalist, career newspaper manin Texas and Michigan.
Brian lives with bipolardisorder and depression and we
are so, so grateful to him forspending some time with us and
especially for his movingtribute to his longtime
therapist, claire Allen.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(55:10):
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so delighted to have onour show as our guest today
Brian Marshall.
He is an award-winningjournalist over 30 years for
newspapers in Texas and Michigan.
He lives with bipolar disorderand depression and he has
(00:23):
written two essays for RecoveryDiaries one about his experience
with ECT, which iselectroconvulsive therapy, and
the other, which you will readtoday, about his decades-long
therapeutic relationship withhis therapist.
Each week we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
(00:45):
Thank you, what has changed andwhat new things have emerged?
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
(01:09):
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere.
You get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
(01:33):
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Brian Marshall, welcome toRecovery Diaries In Depth.
It is so, so lovely to have youhere with us.
Brian Marshall (01:46):
Thank you.
It's good to be here and totalk to you.
Gabe Nathan (01:50):
So I just want to peel back the curtain for a
little bit and let our listenersknow that we had some technical
difficulties.
We're starting a full 34minutes late than we had been
scheduled to, and I just want tosay that, as someone who lives
with, uh, generalized anxietydisorder, um it's, it's thrown
(02:12):
me a bit off kilter.
So I'm, um, I'm struggling tokind of get back in the zone and
just be here in the presentmoment with you and be mindful
that, as the saying goes, shithappens and it's okay.
But that's kind of the internalmonologue that's going on in my
head at the moment.
(02:32):
So that's how I am.
How are you at this moment,brian?
Brian Marshall (02:37):
I'm well, thank you.
Things are going well and nomajor complaints.
Things are going well and nomajor complaints.
I still have the ups and downsoccasionally, but I've learned
some coping mechanisms and Ihave a good support group.
Gabe Nathan (03:00):
So I'm pretty well.
That's wonderful, I'm reallyglad to hear it.
And a lot of people talk aboutlife in terms of ups and downs,
but you're someone who liveswith bipolar disorder and so the
phrase ups and downs can be alittle different for someone
living with that mental healthchallenge.
(03:21):
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat that phrase means for you?
Brian Marshall (03:28):
Well, I would say probably for the last 20
years ago I really haven't hadany manic episodes.
So it's mostly dealing with thedepression side of it and I've
been on a pretty even keel.
(03:48):
When it does crop up I kind oflose motivation, energy, I sleep
too much Pretty much thetypical factors that people deal
with when they're depressed.
(04:08):
But I have found that I snapout of it quicker.
I have no qualms aboutmedication and working with my
psychiatrist to adjust it asneeded, and therapy obviously is
a great help.
But it's just the main thingfor me is, I believe, not
(04:36):
panicking.
I have kind of a my psychiatristhas kind of a dramatic case of
bipolar where I mean it canswitch overnight, I can wake up.
You know, I can be having aspell of feeling fine for months
actually, and I can wake up andit's almost like you know, the
chemicals have switched and Ijust feel that you know that
(05:01):
overwhelming feeling ofdepression, that overwhelming
feeling of depression.
And so the key is to not panicwhen that comes on and to use my
tools to deal with it.
Gabe Nathan (05:15):
Has that been an issue for you in the past?
That panic like, oh my God,here it is again and I'm sliding
down this hole into this deepdepression, and how have you
been able to manage that?
Brian Marshall (05:31):
Like I said, I in the past would normally just
kind of wallow in it and keep tomyself not open up of wallow in
it and keep to myself, not openup.
It's very hard for me sometimesto push myself to reach out, um
, not only to the, you know, theprofessionals, um in my life,
(05:56):
but but to friends I have, youknow, a couple friends I can
definitely confide in, but I Ikeep it inward and it just kind
of builds on itself and makes iteven worse.
But I've learned, you know, Ijust simply can't do that.
And also, writing is an outlet.
The therapist I was with formany, many years, decades
(06:21):
actually.
You know I was a journalist.
I'm retired now I stillfreelance.
I've written a couple of books.
Writing for me is a big outlet,therapy in itself.
She always said whatever it is,write a note to somebody,
journal, but just the fingers onthe keys for me is an outlet.
(06:44):
You know, if I don't feel likereaching out immediately to
somebody to talk to, I will tryto put it into words.
Gabe Nathan (06:56):
And that has also helped.
I love that you've alreadybrought up Claire, who was your
therapist for many, many years,several decades and we're
definitely going to be talkingmore about her and she's really
your relationship with her isthe subject of the essay that
you're going to read for us.
That was published on RecoveryDiaries a couple years ago, so
(07:18):
I'm really looking forward tothat, but I have there's so many
things I want to ask you, likeI have questions about writing.
As someone who also lives withmental health challenges and who
loves writing, I have questionsabout that.
I guess I'll start there.
So you've talked about writingas a helpful outlet and a tool,
(07:43):
and I know that you do freelancewriting about animals.
Is that?
Brian Marshall (07:47):
correct.
Yes, yes, I write for amagazine called Animal Wellness.
Gabe Nathan (07:55):
So here's my question Does the writing have
to be related to your mentalhealth for it to be therapeutic,
for it to be an outlet orsomething that's helpful to you,
or can it be writing aboutanything, just the simple act of
writing that you find helpful?
Brian Marshall (08:13):
Yes, I would say it's any kind of writing
Journeying about my feelings andwhat I'm going through is
definitely a key method.
But no, it's just that creativeprocess.
I mean, when I write it'salmost like it's not coming from
(08:37):
my brain and through my handsto the keyboard, it's coming
from somewhere else.
I don't know how to explain it,but it's just such an outlet,
it's such a first.
You know, so long from my oldprofessional career I wrote
every day, sometimes severalstories a day, you know, in the
newspaper business.
So it's, it's just.
(08:59):
You know, it's been a part ofmy life, like I said, and yeah,
just the act.
It can be, it can be anything,um, just that creative process
and just the, just the lettinggo.
Yeah, it doesn't have to beabout mental health, although
that certainly, um, thatcertainly does help as well.
Gabe Nathan (09:23):
That's wonderful.
I'm so glad that you have that,that outlet, and it's something
that you I mean, you'reobviously good at it,
award-winning journalist andsomething that you've done for
for decades now, um but thatit's also helpful to you, no
matter what the subject matteris, Um and I.
You were talking also earlierabout how, when you're feeling
(09:48):
depressed, it can be difficultto open up, and I was thinking
of a couple things related tothat.
And one of the things I wasthinking about is that here at
Recovery Diaries, we get allkinds of analytics and
information about who's comingto the website and who's reading
the essays and, of course,who's submitting the essays and
(10:12):
who's getting published on thesite, and it's overwhelmingly
women.
That's who's.
You know we're predominantlygetting submissions from female
writers.
That's who's getting published,predominantly getting
submissions from female writers.
That's who's getting published.
And so so many of the sitevisitors are women.
And I remember when I first gotyour you've written two essays
(10:37):
for us when I first got yourfirst essay.
Every time I get an essay froma man opening up about their
mental health, I'm almost like adog and I can feel my tail
wiggling a little bit becauseit's so rare.
And when you were talking abouthow difficult it is to open up.
I was wondering if you thinkthat that's like a male thing,
(11:00):
that that's part of what makesit hard for you, all of the
stereotypes and the tropesaround men and opening up about
mental health.
Do you think that thatcontributes to that reluctance
in you?
Brian Marshall (11:15):
I think that is part of it, I think.
In our society, men are taughtor raised to be strong and be
able to handle things on theirown.
And, um, yes, I, I definitelythink it is.
Uh, I, I, I happen to just havethe personality too, though, or
(11:39):
I think, um, you know, I'mdefinitely a not a type A
personality where I love goingand just able to freely express
how I feel, but, yes, I do thinkthat that is part of it for
sure.
Gabe Nathan (12:00):
I'm going to connect another dot.
Your dad was a cop right Rightand a cop right Right and a cop
a long time ago, in an era wherethose kind of beliefs were even
more deeply entrenched, thosebeliefs about men and manhood
and suck it up buttercup andstiff upper lip and that kind of
(12:21):
thing.
What kind of guy was he?
Brian Marshall (12:25):
Oh, he was a great guy.
He was the type of person myfriends used to say wow, my dad
was like yours, just oh, how doI describe him?
Just warm and great sense ofhumor and just accepting of
(12:45):
everybody.
He was my baseball coach inLittle League and the kids just
loved him.
He wasn't all about winning atall costs.
He would make sure every kid onthe team played in every game.
Some of these coaches wouldjust hoping when it all costs
(13:07):
and some kids would sit on abench forever.
But so the players and theparents loved him for that.
Um, just giving him of himselfand, um, you know, as a cop he
was, he was like that.
He, he wasn't in it.
You know he wasn't the monstercoming to cop.
You know to carry a gun and tobe the.
(13:29):
You know, the the forceful, uh,uh, you know, um, you know this
is a lie, you can do it my way.
Whatever he, he would listen topeople.
He was reasonable, but alsoone-on-one.
(13:53):
He did have trouble expressinghis emotions, so it was hard for
me to open up to him.
I would more often go to mymother, but yeah, he was just a
great guy.
I can't say enough to him.
I would more often go to mymother, but yeah, he was just a
great guy.
I can't say enough about him.
I was so lucky to have both ofthem.
Gabe Nathan (14:11):
Yeah, that's so wonderful and he was an integral
part in you getting helpcorrect.
Brian Marshall (14:17):
He actually was for sure.
Would you like me to talk aboutthat now, or wait till I'm
ready to do the essay?
Gabe Nathan (14:24):
Just, share a little bit about it, and yeah,
we'll get to it in the essay tooSure.
Brian Marshall (14:39):
He met a woman by chance and back then, more
often than not, the mother didstay home, be a full-time mother
, not work outside of the home.
And to enable that to happen,he took on side jobs and one of
them was painting homes.
(14:59):
And he happened to be paintingthe home of a woman and he
noticed that there were kidsthat would come and go on their
bikes even to her home.
And he asked one day you know,why are these kids coming to see
(15:22):
you?
And she said well, I'm atherapist and I work with them.
And I will tell you in thatsense, I had just come home, not
that long ago before that, andI was depressed.
I was back living at home, andhe asked her would you see my
(15:45):
son?
And she said, of course.
And that led to three decadesof working with this wonderful
person who changed my life andwas there for me and taught me
the tools, got me to open up, um, told me the tools got me to
open up.
And so, yeah, it was, uh, itwas by chance.
(16:06):
But you know, I totally believesome things are meant to happen
and that's one of them for sure.
Gabe Nathan (16:13):
Yeah, it's hard to argue against that when there's
this just totally random and yetlife changing encounter, and I
love that it was your fatherthat really made that happen,
and what a lifelong gift that hewas able to give to you.
(16:34):
Perhaps unknowingly he may haveas well.
You know Brian needs a littlehelp.
Let's see if this works.
But how could he have known itwould have blossomed into this
decades-long therapeuticrelationship?
It's really extraordinary.
Brian Marshall (16:53):
Yeah, it really is.
Looking back on it, like I said, I really think it was right
place at the right time, and hetalked later about it was
difficult for him.
Like I said, he was, you know,not silent, but he was the
(17:15):
strong I was going to say strong, silent type of person.
But for him to approach her andask her, you know, if she would
see me, he said that was verydifficult for him.
So, yeah, I was very fortuitousfor me.
Gabe Nathan (17:37):
I have two children and they're both 13.
They're twins.
I sometimes think back to whenI was a kid and I was struggling
with my mental health and Iapproached my mother one day I
think I was 10.
And I asked her if I could talkto someone and the response was
(18:01):
oh Gabriel, there's nothingwrong with you.
And there very clearly was.
And I, you know, my mother'sstill living, my father's still
living, and I think about that alot.
And I think about that youngboy and what it took for him to
(18:27):
approach his mother to ask forhelp and it being denied, and I
for a long time was very angryat her.
I didn't get help until I wasin college and I could go get it
myself.
But I think about could my lifehave been very different if I
had gotten help earlier and ifshe had responded differently?
(18:48):
And why did she respond likethat and what the fuck was wrong
with her?
You know.
But I think about what it mustbe like for a parent to know
that their child is strugglingand there's so many different
ways to react to that and somany different things that a
parent carries from their ownchildhood that can inform how
(19:12):
they respond to that and reactto that, and I think I wonder if
my mother was scared, if mymother felt ashamed that she
must have done something wrongfor me to not be okay as a child
and that getting me help wouldbe admitting to that, basically
(19:35):
that this was quote her fault,which of course isn't true.
But I wonder if some of thosefeelings like shame or guilt or
fear were barriers to my gettinghelp earlier.
And then, when I think aboutyour experience with your father
, emotions that he must havebeen struggling with related to
(20:02):
you not being well, related toyou not being well, but then
being able to overcome those andsaying, okay, I feel maybe this
way about Brian and maybe Ifeel responsible or guilty or
scared or whatever, but I'mgoing to put that aside and do
what's right.
(20:22):
I'm just so glad he was able todo that.
Brian Marshall (20:29):
Oh, of course, Oma.
I think in my case it wasobvious.
I was struggling, I didn't wantto leave the house, I was a
apprentice.
Yeah, I don't think it was acase where there was any gray
(20:49):
area or any reason to hesitateto try to get me help.
Gabe Nathan (20:58):
So part of the reason that we do this show,
Brian, is most the vast majorityof our guests are people from
our Recovery Diaries community.
You know people who havewritten essays for us in the
past, people who've been in ourfilms that we make, and you know
we wait a few years to thenbring people on the show to
(21:21):
check in with them and see howthey're doing now, because an
essay is what it is.
It's a snapshot in time, sameas a film.
You make the film in 2016, andthen you put it out there and
then life happens to people, andso I'm very curious to hear
(21:45):
about how you're doing now, whatyour day-to-day experience is.
You know how you're doing withyour mental health recovery now,
now, so can you tell us alittle bit about that?
Brian Marshall (22:01):
Yes, doing much better.
Like I said, the depression isinevitable.
It comes no matter what's goingon in my life.
Things could be going great but, like I said, I can feel it.
(22:26):
Sometimes it's overnight, but Ihave learned.
That's still a huge hurdle, butI will immediately.
I have one friend in particularwho I talk to often.
I've actually known since I wasin college.
(22:47):
We actually dated and, ofcourse, lost track of each other
for many, many years and I justkind of looked her up, found
her on the internet, and thiswas probably six, seven years
ago and we connected.
We had a great relationshipthen.
She's very oh, she's had a lotof life experiences herself and
(23:14):
is very in tune with me, knowsmy whole history.
So that's like the first step Iwill take.
I'll reach out to her, I won'thesitate, and then usually
she'll still have to convince meto reach out to my therapist
and or doctor.
So I just believe my copingtechniques have grown and have
(23:42):
gotten better and allowed me todeal with it when it does come
on Now.
Reaching out doesn't snap me outof the depression.
It will stay with me for awhile, but because I'm able to
reach out, it won't reach thedepths that it used to, reach
the depths that it used to Fromthe time.
(24:03):
My first onset of depressionwas when I was 19 and it was
just horrible.
I didn't know what washappening to me.
And then, through my 30s and40s probably from 19 through my
30s and 40s, probablyhospitalized six or seven times
(24:23):
In the last 20, 15, 20 years Ihaven't been.
I believe that's because, youknow, I've been able to get over
that stigma of I have to bestrong.
I have to deal with this, youknow, by myself and, like I said
before, I would just wallow init and it would get worse.
So, yeah, just reaching out toher and I also have a great
(24:49):
family that are aware ofeverything I've been through my
one sister in particular I cantalk to and then, like I said,
that will, and then, like I said, that will prompt me lead me to
reach out to the professionalsin my life.
So, yeah, as far as that goes,it's in a much better place.
There's nothing I can do I'veaccepted that to stop the
(25:16):
chemical changes that willinevitably lead to depression,
but it's how I deal with it thathas made the difference and
allowed me to live a much betterday-to-day life.
So that's the gist of it, justfrom me reaching out.
Gabe Nathan (25:38):
Yeah, and it's wonderful that you have those
people in your life that you'reable to do that with and that
you feel safe and comfortableand confident to do that, to be
able to reach out Again, knowingthat it doesn't cure anything
but it helps give you supportand relief and release and
validation.
(25:58):
It's just so, so important.
And you were talking aboutmaking the connections to the
professionals in your life, butI know that you have been
experiencing some issues withquote big system healthcare and
some frustrations there, and Iwould love you to just talk
(26:22):
about that a little bit.
If you're comfortable doingthat, sure.
Brian Marshall (26:27):
Yes, I'm still in the midst of that, my
psychiatrist.
Actually, I was with apsychiatrist who was wonderful
too for about 25 years and heretired almost the same time
that my therapist did.
I call them the dream teambecause he was just fantastic as
(26:48):
well.
And um, so I found anotherpsychiatrist and, uh, we worked
pretty well together and heretired about five years ago, I
would say.
And I found another one thatdid not go as well.
(27:13):
It went well for a while, butit did not go as well.
So I decided to change justfairly recently, a few months
back.
So I decided to change justfairly recently, a few months
back, and I made an appointmentand I went believing I was going
to see the psychiatrist, and itturned out that the first
appointment was called an intake, where I sat down and spoke to
(27:36):
a person and it wasn't justfilling out forms, it was fairly
detailed about my history andit was an hour long session.
I thought, okay, well, that'sgreat, I'll see the psychiatrist
next time.
Made an appointment, I'mtalking.
A couple more weeks went by.
The next appointment was and Iwasn't told this up front that
(27:57):
it was a several-layered systembefore I actually saw a
psychiatrist.
The next appointment was with acaseworker of all things which
I didn't need A caseworker, aseven she said was, you know, to
make sure I had shelter, I hadfood.
So I met with her and then madeanother appointment, and I'm
(28:27):
still.
That was a month away and I'mstill a couple of weeks away
from that, and this time I said,okay, I've got to get an
understanding of what thesystem's like and what's going
on and what the next step is.
So I reached out and Idiscovered that my next
appointment is with thepsychiatrist, but they call it a
psych evaluation.
(28:47):
It's almost like I have toprove that I have a mental
illness and so in the meantimeI've had to rely on my primary
physician to prescribe my psychmedications, which she has done,
but she's been somewhathesitant, especially when she
(29:09):
had to do it for a second time,and I'm actually going to have
to reach out to her for a thirdtime, since this next
appointment will not involverefilling my psych medication.
So it's been very frustratingand I'm actually I decided
(29:32):
yesterday I'm actuallyconsidering foregoing that
system and having my primary,which she hasn't mentioned in
the past that she will do fillmy psych medication, since, you
know, now you see a psychiatrist.
It's not therapy, it's calledmedication review.
(29:54):
You see them for five, tenminutes, so I can go without
that if.
I have to.
I can rely on my therapist formy everyday situation and
problems.
So, yes, it's been veryfrustrating.
I'm not the only person,obviously, going through this,
(30:18):
because that's the way they'reset up.
So, yes, frustrating.
Gabe Nathan (30:24):
Well, you're getting nothing but empathy here
and that's the way I've beendoing it for years is having my
GP prescribe me myantidepressant and anti-anxiety
medication because of preciselythese issues.
And many general practitionersare very reluctant to do this.
They do not want to getinvolved with psych meds.
(30:48):
They really are uncomfortableabout it.
So many psych meds carry thatblack label warning about
suicide because,counterintuitively, a lot of
psychiatric medications carrythat risk of increasing suicidal
ideation and so they don't wantto touch it.
(31:10):
And you're lucky in thatrespect that you have a GP who's
willing to do it.
I am as well that.
Mine is like look, you've beenstable on this medication for so
long.
I feel comfortable justprescribing it for you as long
(31:31):
as you're still in therapy,which of course I am, which of
course you are.
But when I think about theseissues going on in managed care,
the immense level offrustration, and I'll even call
(31:53):
it sabotage because you'restable, you're on a medication
or medications that are clearlyworking for you, and simply
because your practitionerretires or moves or closes their
practice or whatever, it is allof a sudden that stability that
you've built up is jeopardized.
(32:13):
And who's jeopardizing it aremental health professionals.
Um, and the reason?
It's simply because they wantto cover their own asses.
So they've put all thesebarriers in place and all these
protective layers for themselves, which are incredibly
(32:35):
frustrating and often dangerous,I think, for patients.
It's really a shame that youand so many others are going
through that, and I guess thelast thing I want to say about
it is that living with mentalillness is really hard.
I mean, it's an obviousstatement, but then when these
(32:58):
obstacles are put in front ofyou, it's making things even
harder than they have to be forpeople who are already having a
hard time.
Brian Marshall (33:08):
Oh, absolutely, and you're absolutely right.
The system I'm not saying therearen't exceptions, obviously
there are still psychiatristswho will see you on the first
visit, but it's getting fewerand fewer between, I think.
(33:33):
And also insurance companiescome into play, because Sure,
insurance companies come intoplay because my insurance
company did a great job oflocating some psychiatrists that
I could reach out to.
Gabe Nathan (33:50):
You know there were only a handful, I did reach out
(34:11):
to and it's been, like I said,frustrating and strongly
considering, as you had done,just having my primary physician
prescribe my medicationsbecause of that reason.
Well, and the frustrations thatyou're experiencing now with
these clinicians are totallywarranted, and I guess now would
be a good time to move to atime when you were better
(34:32):
supported and managed care andthe big health system wasn't a
part of your life and you werereceiving much more direct and
empathic care.
So let's turn our attention,let's go in the Wayback Machine
for your essay.
It's called Decades-LongRelationship with Therapist
(34:53):
Truly a Gift by Brian Marshall,and we are ready for it when you
are.
Brian Marshall (34:58):
After a sudden, crushing depression, I
discovered, by fate I willforever believe a person that
would provide guidance, sincerecaring and a unique connection
that would help shape my lifefor 30 years.
That person was apsychotherapist yes, a deaf
provider of that personalone-on-one relationship that
(35:19):
fosters, ideally, an atmosphereof sharing innermost thoughts
and emotions and of facingroadblocks in the aim for
clarity and happiness.
Finding such a person, ofcourse, can be difficult, and
the right connection is alwaysvital to success.
Many try therapy with one ormore professionals before giving
(35:41):
up, frustrated that the giveand take necessary for
enlightenment is lacking.
I was fortunate to enjoy a mostunique and rewarding experience
.
I found the perfect therapy anda partner merely by chance, and
this is what we had discussedearlier.
After a brief bout of depressionupon graduating from high
(36:03):
school, I had gone five yearsquote in remission from any sort
of depression, as I thoroughlyenjoyed college, and three years
of being welcomed into awonderful group of coworkers and
friends in Texas.
I am sure now that my bipolardisorder was simply taking time
off.
I was not on medication, notseeing a therapist and just
(36:26):
enjoying life.
I am also sure that my relapsewas triggered by situational
factors.
I gave up a job.
I loved sports writing becausemy girlfriend lived two hours
away.
I took a job selling furniturewhich I loathed every morning as
(36:47):
I got ready to go to the store.
I became engaged to Stacy aftera year when I realized that
Texans, because of pride andlove of their wonderful state,
rarely leave Texas, reality hits.
I was very close to my familywho resided many states away in
(37:08):
Michigan.
I would only see them onoccasion the rest of my days if
I dove into my new life in theSouthwest.
Those two factors selling outprofessionally and foregoing the
wealth of happiness and newlife in the Southwest those two
factors signing upprofessionally and foregoing the
wealth of happiness forged overa lifetime resulted in a deep
(37:28):
depression and a hospital stay.
They quickly had a moment ofclarity.
I had to go home, stacey, and Ididn't actually break up.
I was ill and was only going toget better, surrounded by
family.
She understood and stayed by myside.
(37:51):
I called my father, my heroalways, and I told him that I
needed to come home.
An immediate sense of relieffollowed when he replied okay,
when do that I needed to comehome?
An immediate sense of relieffollowed when he replied okay,
when do you want me to come?
My father flew to Texas ASAP.
(38:11):
Actually, it was the next day.
We were to drive the 24 hoursto Michigan.
We did so in two days and narya word was said.
My father was a strong type whokept his emotions in check.
I felt safe and secure sittingnext to him, but feelings of
(38:36):
embarrassment, failure and fearkept me from discussing my
feelings and, of course, thedepression that I was feeling.
Once back in the bedroom inwhich I grew up, I wallowed in
anguish, totally withdrawn frompeople and the world, no
direction, no motivation and waytoo much restless sleep.
(38:57):
Then came my introduction toClaire Allen.
My father was a police officer,not one of the macho quote look
I've got a gun cops but one whocared about people and often
was utilized in domestic strifesituations.
My friends loved him.
(39:18):
He was big on humor but didn'treveal his emotions.
He held jobs on the side.
He was painting the home of awoman when he noticed a steady
stream of bike-riding youngstersdropping by, spending a spell
inside of them, pedaling awayWith his troubled son.
At home.
My father built up the courageto ask the woman about the kids
(39:43):
and she told him that she was apsychotherapist that worked with
the kids at the behest of theirparents.
My father explained that hisson was very depressed and asked
whether she would see him.
Of course, just have him calland we'll set up a meeting, ms
Allen said.
My father told me years laterthat asking for help was one of
(40:06):
the most difficult conversationshe'd ever had.
Agreeing to go to therapy.
I soon discovered that thiswoman had a spirit and positive
aura that awakened me, albeitslowly, aura that awakened me,
albeit slowly.
I returned weekly at first, and, while there were some quiet
(40:26):
sessions, I was able to get to aplace where I could truly begin
to address the real issues andemotions that had rendered me
emotionally frozen.
Claire Allen, a heavilyeducated psychologist, had been
helping clients find healingdirection and hope for many
years.
She moved from a busy officesetting to hold sessions from
(40:49):
her home in a tree-lined, cozyarea in Michigan.
What would proceed over thenext 30 years would be an
(41:12):
incredible journey ofself-inspection, learned coping
techniques and unearthingconfidence in self-esteem that
had been whittled away by my ownperceived failings.
It got to the point where MsAllen could read my face as I
entered the room.
What's happened?
Or glad to see you're feelingbetter, I'd plunk down into a
chair and we would go to workAll the usual things family, my
(41:32):
current state of mind.
She would offer instantrecognition to whatever plight
may have emerged.
Able to cut through pretensebecause of our valued chemistry.
Able to cut through pretensebecause of our valued chemistry.
She helped me stop agonizingover what others thought of me.
Instead, she reminded me of themany people in my life who
respected and loved me.
We role-played, we examinedwhat-if scenarios and I learned
(42:00):
to avoid harmful triggers.
Mostly, though, it was those 45minutes in which our growing
therapist-client relationshipblossomed.
There were a handful ofhospitalizations over the years
when the chemicals in my brainshifted, bringing on severe
depression.
Always, however, there was mytrusted ally to steady the ship,
(42:23):
slow me down and get me to digdeep.
She showed me how the pastshaped the present, but that the
only thing that mattered waswhat I would do to make the
present and future better.
She had a database into my mindwithout needing a file.
Ms Allen would meet some of ourfamily members she knew so well
(42:47):
, as portrayed in our sessions.
No one in my life went withoutexamination in those sessions.
If only they knew she actuallyattended some of my children's
milestones and was sought out bymore than one family member
during trying times.
(43:09):
Ms Allen, semi-retired, when Iwas in my mid-50s about 10 years
ago.
It had been a couple of yearssince I checked in with her.
I was going through a roughtime and felt I needed to reach
out.
In a five-minute conversationshe gave me orders that I heard
often through the years.
Write, she said you must writeJournal, or even if it's a note
(43:34):
to someone, write a note.
To me, as a journalist, writingwas more than a profession.
It was therapeutic for me andso I did.
I wrote her thanking her forbeing there for me through all
my life's trials and joys, forforming a bond that to this day
prompts me to ask what wouldClaire say when I am met with
(43:58):
the latest of life's challenges?
And I wrote this.
I hope it inspires others to atleast consider finding help
when strife is ripe.
Gabe Nathan (44:14):
Thank you so much for reading that piece.
It is a delight and very, veryheartwarming.
I think that so many people arescared of therapy that NAMI,
(44:35):
the National Alliance on MentalIllness, puts out a lot on
social media and it says thatthe average length of time
between onset of mental healthsymptoms to the person actually
seeking help is 11 years.
(44:56):
Wow, that's an astonishinglength of time between knowing
there's something going on andactually getting help, and I
think there's so many reasonswhy people wait that long, but I
think one of them is thatpeople are scared of therapy and
therapists and they have thesearchaic or problematic beliefs
(45:17):
about what therapy is going tobe like.
Or they see things ontelevision or film that are not
accurate or are like horrorstories or just give the wrong
impression.
Antidote to that, because itreally shows what is possible
(45:42):
and just this really beautifuldepiction of this helpful,
hopeful relationship.
So thank you for sharing that.
On our publication.
Brian Marshall (45:54):
Oh, absolutely.
And you know I found OC87 justsearching around the internet
and I was so taken with theessays and people who opened up
and that's what prompted me tosend my essay to you up and
(46:21):
that's what prompted me to sendmy essay to you.
I still read the essays andeveryone I read, you know I
gained a new insight.
It seems like there's so manydifferent real life issues and I
(46:45):
was so glad that you acceptedmine.
And, yeah, I just, and Ibelieve also, you know there's
that stigma when you know I'mnot crazy, I don't need a
therapist.
Well, I just think everybody atsome point can use somebody to
(47:09):
talk to, and it doesn't have tobe a therapist, it can be a
friend.
But you know therapists aretrained, you know they do what
they do for a reason and to findone that you're compatible with
.
I don't mean to go off your ownagenda.
Not at all After she, miss Allenretired.
(47:32):
I had a hard time.
I saw a couple of therapistsand I just didn't feel like
there was that connection.
I probably held on to I have astandard after what I had
experienced and then finally Ifound one who.
We have things in common.
(47:52):
We start almost every sessiontalking about our love of the
Detroit professional sportsteams and we just kind of go
from there, um.
So yeah, like you said, I thinkthere are so many reasons, um,
and and it's a shame because youknow, I, I know firsthand and
(48:19):
listening to you, you know forTam, what that give and take can
do for you.
So, yeah, I wish you know morepeople would reach out when
they're feeling that you knowthese hurdles in their life are
(48:40):
so hard.
Gabe Nathan (48:42):
And so hard, so much harder to overcome and deal
with alone.
And that's the.
I think that's the real cruxhere is that you don't have to
do it alone.
You know there are trainedprofessionals out there who can
be helpful, and some of themaren't, to be very honest, and
(49:02):
some of them might be helpful tosomeone but not to someone else
.
It might just not be the rightconnection, but you can try
again.
And you know I'm on my 15th yearwith my therapist, so I'm very
much in your boat.
I hit it out of the park withmy first one, not counting the
(49:27):
therapist I saw at the collegecounseling center, but my first
one in the real quote adultworld.
That's who I'm still with andI'm very, very, very lucky, um,
but it doesn't happen that wayfor everyone.
But you, you really can find agood match and I'm really glad
that you said what you said alsoabout how, when Claire retired,
(49:51):
that it was a struggle for youand I can only imagine mourning
that, the loss of thatrelationship and having to try
to establish something withsomeone new who does not have
that foundation and that coreunderstanding of you and who.
You are really building thatfrom the ground up.
(50:15):
I think you deserve a lot ofcredit for trying a couple and
realizing okay, this isn'tworking out, but you have found
a match.
Is it the same?
No, but you're getting what youneed and that's really great.
Brian Marshall (50:34):
Yes, I read something that put it kind of in
perspective.
When you're seeking out atherapist, you are actually
hiring them, which also meansthis one's harsh, but you can
(50:55):
stop seeing them seek someoneelse.
But I just hope that people, ifthey do have a bad experience
or just simply don't feel likethey can open up to a therapist,
will not give up, will try toseek someone else but it's your
life, it's your decision Insteadof just keep seeing them all
(51:18):
the time or right, but it's yourlife, it's your decision.
Gabe Nathan (51:19):
Instead of just keep seeing them all along, or,
right yeah, continuing thesessions, throwing money away
and having it not work, orleaving and going well, therapy
is clearly not for me.
No, that therapist may not havebeen for you, but I have seen
it where people kind of throwthe baby out with the bathwater.
(51:40):
They have a bad experience witha therapist and go well, I knew
this wasn't going to work.
I knew therapy wasn't for me.
Try again, and you're awonderful model for that that
you had this wonderfuldecades-long relationship.
It ended as all do, but youwere able to pick up with
(52:04):
someone else and it's a veryimportant reminder that you can
do that.
Whatever the reason is for atherapeutic relationship ending
Right right.
Brian Marshall (52:16):
And therapy isn't for everybody.
Butically, you know.
Gabe Nathan (52:20):
We see what happens so many times yeah, yeah, and
(52:48):
it doesn't have to be, it reallydoesn't, um.
So I'm just so grateful to you,um, and you know, particularly
as a caucasian male, in your agebracket that's the highest
demographic for suicide.
So you're really a model, notjust for help seeking, but for
(53:14):
also being open and vulnerableand putting yourself out there
and telling your story, and I'mtelling you right now that helps
people.
It helps people to see you inyour author's photo looking very
dapper and debonair, with yourwhite hair and being a male of
(53:37):
that demographic, combatingstigma and saying there's
nothing wrong with going totherapy, with taking meds and
telling your story, and I thinkyou deserve a lot of credit.
Brian Marshall (53:50):
It's the next game.
I appreciate that.
I really do.
It's the truth.
Gabe Nathan (53:54):
And that's what I'm going to send you on your way
with Brian Marshall.
I'm so, so grateful to you forbeing a part of our Recovery
Diaries community, for coming tous not once, but twice, with
two published essays on our site, and for being such a wonderful
guest on the show.
I'm so, so grateful to you.
Brian Marshall (54:12):
Oh, I enjoy it and thank you for what you do,
for being such a great advocatefor mental health.
Gabe Nathan (54:21):
Thank you, wishing you all the very best.
Thank you, thank you again forjoining us in conversation today
.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
What an absolute joy getting tospend some time with two-time
Recovery Diaries author BrianMarshall, award-winning
(54:48):
journalist, career newspaper manin Texas and Michigan.
Brian lives with bipolardisorder and depression and we
are so, so grateful to him forspending some time with us and
especially for his movingtribute to his longtime
therapist, claire Allen.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(55:10):
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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