December 8, 2025 • 59 mins
We are so lucky here at Recovery Diaries to have an international community of special, sparkly people coming to us to share their mental health recovery stories. Today's guest on the show is Nicci Attfield, who lives with anxiety and add. Nicci was born in the UK, and is currently living in South Africa. She has published two personal essays with us, (as has her husband, Jacques!) and it was a true delight to sit down with her and talk about her life as a writer, a neurodivergent person, and someone who is living her best life with mental health challenges.
Nicci opens up about something that any of us who lives with mental illness can identify with; masking. Walking around all day, doing life, engaging in social situations trying to compensate, trying to pass, trying to get through every excruciating moment pretending, pushing through, struggling. It's exhausting. And, for quite some time, Nicci didn't even know what she was masking.
Nicci tried apps, she tried denial, but it ended up being therapy that helped her find her voice; and she hasn't stopped using it. She opens up about what it is like to find her truth and live a life with self-compassion. She also talks openly about being a spouse of someone who has a trauma history and about her unique approach to helping her husband when he is struggling with an often debilitating, abusive internal monologue. Her strategies might just help you navigate hard times with someone you love!
Nicci reads her beautiful and poignant essay, "Anxiety: Irrational, Illogical, Catastrophic and, Eventually; Manageable" and she reflects on who she was and where she was in her life when she wrote it, how her newer diagnosis of ADD has informed and changed her approach to her mental health and herself, and what lies ahead for her. Listen to this warm and engaging conversation between two thoughtful human beings, and share it with someone special in your life.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:00):
Hello.
This is Recovery Diaries inDepth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so excited to have asour guest for today Nicci
Atfield coming to us from SouthAfrica.
Nicci's written two essays forRecovery Diaries, one of them
she'll read on the show today.
She's a freelance writer andthe author of a book about the
(00:24):
Gilmore girls.
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor,
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:45):
see what has shifted, what haschanged, and what new things
have emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiaries.org.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment, and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
(01:06):
miss a new podcast episode,essay, or film.
And you can find this podcastpretty much anywhere you get
your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges, and grow.
And of course, make sure tolike, share, and subscribe.
Nicci Atfield, welcome toRecovery Diaries in Depth.
(01:33):
It is such a joy to be sittinghere with you.
Nicci Atfield (01:35):
Thanks, Gabe.
Thank you for inviting me.
Gabe Nathan (01:38):
Um It's a pleasure.
And you're talking to us fromSouth Africa.
Is that right?
That's right.
Um, so this is one of the thisis one of the things that I get
really excited about.
Um being the editor of a mentalhealth publication.
So, you know, we do thepodcast, obviously it's what
(01:58):
people are listening to, and wedo documentary films.
And, you know, we don't havemoney to send our film crew all
over the world to talk topeople.
Um, so our films are mostlybased on in the Philadelphia
area, which is where we reside.
But through the magic of theinternet, we have essay writers
(02:20):
from all over the world umtalking about their lived
experience with mental healthchallenges.
And I'm pretty sure that you'rethe only person um from South
Africa, um, uh with theexception of your husband.
So that's two.
Um we can get to that later.
Um, but can you just tell me inkind of a broad way, what is
(02:45):
the the cultural experience ofmental health, mental illness in
South Africa?
Because I I really don't know.
Are there particular stigmasattached um to certain
diagnoses?
What is getting help like, uminsurance, all of that kind of
stuff?
I have so many questions.
Nicci Atfield (03:06):
Um I don't know either.
I'm I'm originally from the UK.
Um and then my family is veryconservative, you know, very
British, very um, if one doesnot get upset or um stiff upper
lip.
Yeah.
Um just don't worry about it,it'll go away.
Um, I don't know, just more ofa matter kind of thing.
(03:29):
Um and then in South Africa I Ispent a lot of time with my
family.
Um and then I went touniversity and I studied
psychology, so obviously peoplewere quite open.
Um and then I had a a nicementor uh who's amazing as
people who who was a counselingmentor, homage, who who must be
(03:52):
one of the kindest people.
So my idea is that South Africais very much kinder.
You know, there's a lot of workaround community healthcare,
around um counseling.
I was a voluntary counselor.
Um people uh there's trauma andSouth African gender-based
violence, but then the communitythat I got to know are very
activist, very concerned.
(04:14):
So I would say um it'scompassionate.
Um, but that's been myexperience.
Obviously, it's my subjectiveexperience.
Um and then as well, I thinkpeople understand certain things
more than others.
Um so if you have anxiety, Ithink people are quite
understandable.
Understand people get a bitworried.
Um but say people are a bitbipolar or a bit schizophrenic
(04:38):
or something, or you know,something goes wrong.
Um when I was at UCT, somebodywas shouting about being
invisible.
I don't want to be invisibleanymore.
And whether she wasmetaphorical or she really
didn't want, she felt she wasinvisible, I don't know, but
that there was a lot morejudgment.
Um you know, if the studentstalk to each other and said, I'm
really not feeling very well,people said, uh, yeah, that's
(05:02):
terrible.
Um but if you say, um, youknow, I'm worried, that's
horrible, we're all worried.
But if you are feelinginvisible, well, what is she
saying?
And why did she say that?
And why was she having a shout?
And you know, is it a feministthing where women just feel
invisible?
But there was a a formalclinical kind of discussion
(05:23):
around it than the the automaticempathy.
Um so I think it depends what'swrong as well.
Gabe Nathan (05:32):
That it's so interesting that the idea of
being invisible, and I I hearmany people in the mental health
advocacy space me talk aboutthe invisible illness.
And that, you know, people wholive with mental health
challenges, um you usually don'tknow.
(05:54):
And there's a couple of reasonswhy.
Like A, a lot of it's going onin our heads, but also we're
really, really good at masking.
At masking.
We're really, really good atpretending like everything's
fine.
Um and we don't we may want totalk about it, but we don't want
to reveal it, and we don't wantto burden other people with
(06:16):
what's going on with us.
And you know, you have to keepgoing and you have to pretend
and you have to go through allthese social situations and oh
my god, and and suffer throughall of them and then come home
and and collapse.
And I'm just wondering if thatresonates with you, that
experience.
Nicci Atfield (06:33):
Well, yeah.
I mean, I I ended up findingout after the essay that I was
neurodivergence.
Um, and I realized how much Imasked and how draining it was,
and how that was, I mean, I'dalways felt like as great peg in
a round hole, I said that inthe essay.
Um and then like there's peoplewho'll say, you know, you were
(06:56):
always unusual.
And I think, well, how how isunusual?
I was trying so hard not to be,you know, for goodness sake.
Um and um and I know like I'vegot my special interests and I
can get on them or whatever.
Um, but I I do think like forfor so many people with
struggles, it is the masking, itis that hiding away, it is
(07:18):
trying to present as normal.
And then you go read horriblethings like say Val McDermott
and how psychopaths are tryingto present as normal or the mask
of sanity, and you think, oh mygod, that's me.
There's something really wrongwith me.
Um I just this horrible person,and I always knew it.
Especially if you're anxious,you know.
Um and and I think I love GableMate and how there's this
(07:43):
house.
Dr.
House, I'm writing about houseat the moment.
You said there's a circle,there's the circle people, and
we draw a circle around thisbunch of sort of people who fit
in.
And everybody else we want tobreak or or change to get them
to adjust.
And I love that because I thinkit's yeah, that's how we feel,
as people who've you know, wegot uh difficulty and we get
(08:07):
stigmatized because of it.
We just we just pretend and wetry everything to fit in with
these norms that are actually uhin a way kind of pain in the
arse.
Gabe Nathan (08:18):
And so much of the stigma is also internal.
Like there's of course we'refacing stigma from outside, and
and people are looking at us asdifferent, but we're also doing
it to ourselves and and kind ofpunishing ourselves for being
different.
And, you know, God, you youfreak, why can't you just be
normal, right?
Why can't you just be likeeverybody else?
(08:39):
Um, and so it's it's thispunishment and and ostracism
from outside and within, um topof the mental health challenges
that we're already dealing with.
So it's just it it can feel, Ithink, just too much.
Um and I'm wondering how youcope with that.
Nicci Atfield (09:04):
I'm I've got two things.
I've I've got the part of methat doesn't really relate.
Um, so I don't really care.
Like that there's one part ofme that's kind of protected, and
that I'm not very interested insay status or my family is.
I uh uh they talk about it alot.
This one's got a big house,this one's doing well.
(09:24):
And I don't I don't reallythink what are they on about?
You know, so in that sense I'mquite protected.
Um, this person might thinkthat if you wear that, and you
think, oh, that person probablyisn't thinking about me.
Um they're probably thinkingabout something in their own
life.
So that I don't care about.
So in that way I'm veryprotected, but in a sense of why
(09:46):
am I unusual?
I mean, that was always mything.
Why am I unusual?
What what am I doing wrong?
Why can't I get it right?
Um, I must try harder, I mustbe more understanding of people,
I must tiptoe around peoplemore.
Um and I do silly things likemost people who do something, uh
I don't know, I get myself inthis situation so I I can't
necessarily understand, and thenI get them wrong.
(10:08):
Um I don't um like somebody,for example, I uh this is why I
used to tiptoe around people.
I don't I don't reallyunderstand.
So um like somebody say, ifthey say, Well, I'm going to go,
if you don't stop that, I'mgoing to go.
It's like, well, then go if youwant to.
Then actually they don't wantto go.
And other cross and think thatthey've been tossed out.
It's like, well, you said youwanted to go.
(10:30):
I meant to understand you don'twant to.
Then say, I don't want to go.
I want you to be quiet.
Or um uh the window is open andpeople say they are um uh that
I don't know, it's gettingcooler.
It's like, oh yes, it is, andthe weather's changing, it's
getting cooler.
I don't know, they mean that,that I must close the window.
(10:51):
Um and I and then they getcross and think I'm not helping
or being sensitive to them.
So I had this belief that Iwasn't a very kind, sensitive
person, and I must try muchharder.
Um and and there I was veryhard on myself, and I tried to
look and I tried to read and Itried to understand, like, well,
how do you actually be moresupportive or how do you how how
(11:15):
do you become this nice person?
Because clearly I'm not a niceperson.
Um let me and that's why I saidI needed to look outside of
myself.
Um and now I I I I've realizedwe can ask people what do you
mean?
What do you want?
Um but that's that was where Ithink my internal stigma came
(11:35):
from, was just feeling like Icould just never get it right.
Gabe Nathan (11:41):
Also that belief, which of course is a cognitive
distortion of I'm not a niceperson, yeah, is is something
that can really erode andcorrode you over time and um get
in the way of everything,including personal
relationships.
And I wonder if, you know, I Iknow because he's contributed uh
(12:05):
work to our site also that yourhusband you know lives with his
own challenges.
And I I just wonder how thatdynamic plays with the two of
you.
Nicci Atfield (12:17):
With Jacques, I'm really lucky um because he
understands.
Um he's had trauma, so he underhe understands in a different
way what it feels like to be onthe outside.
Um where it's hard is that hecan be very self-critical.
Um so he, for example, um a fewyears back, he went and decided
(12:44):
to book a surprise to have myhair done.
And I didn't really like itbecause the way I was wearing
the wrong colours and it didn'tlook very nice at the time.
And he said, I'm such a stupidperson.
I did this, and it's like,well, you didn't do it, you
didn't cut my hair and notreally listen.
Um and then and then he says,Yes, but I am, I'm a stupid
(13:05):
person.
Uh there it can be hard becauseit's like, well, no, no, I'm
not, you know, and then thereit's hard.
There it's very painful towatch.
Um and I feel bad.
Then I feel like, well, I can'treally say anything, but then
I've got doesn't need to saywhat I think.
Um, and break that sort ofsocial contract of tiptoeing
(13:27):
around.
Um and and and trying to guesswhat people want and what they
think and everything.
Um so there it could have beenit could it it could be a bit
hard.
Gabe Nathan (13:39):
I I wonder so I I think that I share a lot of
similarities with both you andyour husband in terms of my own
mental health and things that Isay to myself or messages that I
tell myself, um why can't youjust be normal really resonates
(14:02):
with me?
Um I'm a terrible person reallyresonates with me.
I'm a stupid person reallyresonates with me.
I fuck everything up, which youdidn't say, but I'll say.
Um, you know, that that reallyresonates with me.
And I think that having mentalhealth challenges where you are
(14:24):
constantly bombarding yourselfwith negative messages about who
you are, obviously it has avery negative effect on you.
But when you're in a romanticpartnership, it's really hard on
the other person because A,like you said, it's really hard
to watch someone you love kindof abuse themselves.
(14:47):
But it's also really hard to bethe one to constantly have to
reassure or help challenge thatnarrative.
I think that that can be a veryheavy thing for the partner.
Um I wonder if you feel thatway.
Nicci Atfield (15:06):
I can't.
Um this is the thing.
Um I think this is where we geton quite well.
Um I tend to tell him what Ithink.
I'll get crossed and say, well,you didn't do it, so uh what
are you on about?
Um and I think that's why weget on because it kind of brings
him back to reality.
Um I can't really do the it'sokay.
(15:30):
Um I I don't know how.
Even when I was counseling, Ididn't know how.
I can meet people where they'reat.
But I can't do performing orplacitude very well.
Um so I get frustrated withhim.
And I say, that's not what Iwas saying.
You didn't cut my hair.
Why is it your problem?
(15:51):
And he says, Because I chosethe lady.
It's like, well, how are youmeant to know?
You're not a psychic person.
Um and then he sort of goes,Oh, no, I'm not.
Um he laughs at me because Ithink I don't form the social
script very well.
Um so like we were in a parkand he said he oh, he was a
(16:11):
stupid person and he couldn'twrite.
I was asking why I didn't writean ebook for his business on
how to do a permaculture garden.
And he said, I'm just a stupidperson, I can't write.
And it's like so I said to him,Well, I'm not actually going to
listen to you until you saysomething nice about yourself.
Just be quiet.
Um I won't listen to you.
And he laughed.
He thought it was very funny.
(16:32):
But it got him until I mean itis.
Is it?
Gabe Nathan (16:37):
But it and it's it's I mean, A, we have evidence
on our site that he can writefor sure.
Um and and but I thinksometimes, yeah.
I think sometimes we need thatsplash of water on the face um
to get us out of it because it'ssuch an incessant feedback
loop.
Um, and it just comes up overand over and over again.
(17:00):
And I think your your strategyof just not engaging in it and
not indulging in it.
Um, I mean, it obviously works.
It's obviously effective foryour relationship.
Nicci Atfield (17:13):
Yeah, it does work.
It it stops that I call it aspiral.
Um it stops the spiral becauseit can get worse and worse.
If there's somebody, it itfeels like a ball, you know.
It comes.
Um I've seen as his sister,he's a much kinder, nicer person
than me.
Um so um I'm a stupid person, Idid this, no, you didn't, and
(17:37):
that went well.
Well, I didn't think that.
And it's like a ball, and hepushes it back to her all the
time.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah.
Nicci Atfield (17:43):
And and uh she tries very hard, and then she
gets, I think, quite helpless.
Um like, but I'm trying to helpyou, and I'm trying no, no, but
I don't see that.
But I think you're great, but Idon't see that I'm great.
I think I'm this terribleperson.
But I'm likely to say, oh gosh,you know, what on earth are you
talking about?
I don't think really, forgoodness sake.
(18:04):
Um it doesn't go on as long.
I'm I'm not as nice a person asshe is.
She's a she's a fantastic, veryempathic, very kind person.
Gabe Nathan (18:14):
Um I think I would I would just say that the the
strategies are different.
Nicci Atfield (18:20):
Yeah, uh they're very different.
Gabe Nathan (18:25):
Um can you talk about what the what works for
you?
We've talked about kind of whathelps Jacques, what what helps
you um get through yourchallenging times?
Nicci Atfield (18:36):
He understands me.
Um he's always understood me.
He's I think he understandsbeing an outsider in the first
place because of the trauma, andI think the trauma made him
feel like he was on the outside.
Um and also because he's uh totiptoe around other people so
much.
Um he's quite relieved hedoesn't have to tiptoe around
me.
I don't get offended veryeasily.
(18:58):
Um I'd say my truth and hetells his.
Um so he tells his truth, andthen we're comfortable with each
other.
I don't feel like I have to uhsay things in a nice way, and if
I don't understand him, he willexplain.
Um and he doesn't, I thinkbecause his mother was so mean,
(19:19):
he don't really doesn't getoffended by me.
So if I come along and I saysomething I don't know, tackless
that would be the word, or notI didn't say the right thing, he
doesn't really care.
He just loves me.
Um and that's been really,really helpful for me.
You know, he knows that if hesays something, I'm going to
(19:39):
take him literally.
Um so if I say it, I mean heknows I'm not gonna be polite
and I'm not going to be reassurehim.
So if he wants that, he'sreally got to go find someone
else.
Um and that's once he does,he's not ready.
Um then he'll go speak to hissister and say, like his mum was
sick, you know, maybe she'sgonna get better.
(20:00):
And his sister will say, Yes,she might.
I'm going to say she might not.
Um and he might not want tohear that.
Um but when he's ready, he willtalk to me and say, um, yes,
it's you know, or he can say, Idon't like this, or um, this is
what I feel, but we don't haveto dance around each other
because doing that social dance,it it's impossible.
(20:23):
I don't know, I don't know howto do it.
Um and and he just doesn'texpect that.
So that for me is an absoluterelief.
Gabe Nathan (20:32):
You you use the phrase um telling your truth,
and he tells his truth, and Itell my truth.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yes.
Gabe Nathan (20:40):
So a number of years ago you came to Recovery
Diaries with your truth, um,your truth at the time, um,
which was a really lovely essay,which you're gonna read on the
site in in uh maybe a coupleminutes.
Um but I'm so curious, I don'treally know the story of how you
(21:02):
found us and came to us, andwhat like what your experience
with mental health storytellingwas before coming to us, and
what it was like to to come tous with this vulnerable thing in
your hands to give us.
So can you talk a little bitabout that if you remember?
Nicci Atfield (21:21):
Uh well, it was.
I found you by reading someoneelse's story.
I there was a girl who wastalking about alcoholism.
Uh I can't remember her name,but her she was a teenager and
she had two stories.
Um and uh she was talking aboutI think it was her dad who was
(21:42):
an alcoholic, it was a whileback.
Um and and then she had afollow-up story as well of her
having gone to therapy and uhassessing her sort of I think
her fears around it.
And I loved it.
I loved the sort of opennessand the sort of story of that.
And there was also uh theEnglish writer Giles Corinne
(22:05):
who'd written aboutpsychoanalysis and the king's
speech.
I love Giles Corin.
Um and um how psychoanalysishelped him.
Um and and uh that was quite alovely story as well.
It was in the squire and andthose two stories.
I kind of felt that it was verydifferent from things you read
(22:27):
on on sites and blogs wherepeople tell you what to think
and they tell you what to do.
Um and how it came from aspace, I come from a space of
reading.
A lot of people saying, whenyou're anxious, you should have
an app, which I didn't try.
Um and the app really didn'thelp, it didn't touch the sides.
Um or when you're anxious, youshould do this.
(22:48):
Um and and having somebody justsay, Well, I was anxious, or I
was upset, or I felt like uhtearing up my hair and hitting
walls.
Um, and then I got better.
Um, I kind of felt like thatwas more true and it was more
helpful to other people.
And I wanted to do that too.
Um so I wrote and said, Well,how about it would you be
(23:08):
interested?
Um I want to tell my story.
Um, and I want to sayspecifically that I tried all
the mind of a matter stuff andit really didn't work, and I had
to go on tablets, and and thatwas my difference.
Gabe Nathan (23:28):
Oh, I have so many things I want to ask you.
But when you you said I had togo on tablets, were you were you
anxious about being onmedication?
Did you were you reluctant?
Because I from my ownexperience, um, I was first
suggested that I should be goingon medication when I was in
college.
And I went to the psychiatristand I had one meeting, and I
(23:52):
said no, and I pushed backagainst it.
And I didn't go on medicationuntil I was 31, 32.
Um, I mean, I I resisted it fora long time.
Um and I really needed it.
Um and I my main reason for notwanting to go on medications is
(24:15):
really dumb.
It was that I was a creativeperson and I was afraid that um
if I was medicated that Iwouldn't be creative anymore.
Um, that if if I felt right inmy brain that, oh, I bought into
this trope that real goodwriting comes from fucked up
people.
And if I'm no longer fucked up,well, I can't, you know, I'm
(24:37):
not gonna be as interesting umon the page anymore, which is so
crazy.
I can't even begin.
But a lot of people buy intothat.
Um so I'm just curious, whatwere your thoughts about
psychiatric medication and andmaybe fears surrounding it?
Nicci Atfield (24:52):
I was actually scared of going to therapy for
that reason.
I was scared that if I went totherapy and I lost my
quirkiness, that I wouldn't Iwouldn't be able to write
because one day I wanted towrite.
Um so that was the first block.
Well, if I go to therapy and Ibecome this ordinary I don't
know how what I thought peoplewent to therapy and became this
ordinary dot.
(25:13):
Um I I wouldn't uh I therewould be a problem.
And then I with medicine it wasactually that I came so much
from that school of thoughts ofum, you know, therapy is it
therapy is the answer.
I studied psychology that Ibelieved I'd failed.
That if I, you know, theanalysis doesn't work, and if
(25:36):
you can't start changing yourown helpful thoughts, and if you
can't make it that I'd failed.
I'd failed at therapy.
Therapist didn't think that.
Um psychiatrist didn't thinkthat, but I thought that.
Gabe Nathan (25:50):
Yeah.
And really if we really thinkabout it and how it was
explained to me was you'relearning all this stuff in
therapy, it's the medicationthat helps unlock the parts of
your brain that are able to thenimplement what you're learning.
So for instance, not to compareus to dogs, but I have a German
(26:14):
shepherd who is super, super,super, super anxious, right?
And like she's great in thehouse and super chill, but when
we take her outside, it's andshe's like I mean, you can hold
the loveliest treat in front ofher face.
She will not even see it.
You call her name, she's she'snot there anymore.
And the trainer, we're finallytraining her after like seven
(26:37):
years.
She's seven years old.
Again, like me, sometimes helpcomes late.
But she's seven years old.
We're finally training her.
Um, the trainer is you know,lives with trauma and PTSD
herself.
She's super good with anxiousdogs and anxious owners.
And she really explained thatlike when Sadie goes outside,
(26:59):
she's all brainstem.
She's all in her reptilianbrain, and she's just
overstimulated and just thetraining is not penetrating her.
She is now on Puppy Prozac,right?
To get her to the point whereshe can go outside and and do
that little brainstem shit, butthen chill so she can get into
(27:24):
her working brain and actuallylearn.
So it's therapy and medsworking in concert with each
other, right?
And for you and me, we may besuch anxious people that simply
going to therapy, and okay, wecan learn stuff and
intellectually we can understandthings, but to then process it
(27:47):
and implement it and and put itinto our daily lives, put it
into practice.
Sometimes you need medicationto be able to slow everything
down to be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (28:00):
So yeah, therapy failed.
Fuck that.
It's not about therapy failing.
It's about these twotherapeutic modalities that
sometimes, you know, need eachother to click.
Nicci Atfield (28:11):
Also, I had this idea.
I mean, like you read it on onsite tonight, you know, the sort
of idea of this person therewent to a Peruvian ceremony and
then they got better.
And I thought that, yeah,that's much nicer.
It's much nicer to go and havean insight and and uh see things
very differently.
(28:31):
Um he really wants to go onsomething, and maybe in six
weeks it'll work, and maybe, youknow, he doesn't, and maybe you
get worse.
Um and the psychiatrist wasreally nice and said, well, if
you want to do that, you can.
Just speak to me um beforethat, because you definitely
mustn't do that.
So it's all right.
(28:52):
But in general, this is is goodfor quality of life.
And she also said, you know,that a Magdala, when it gets
overexcited and overwrought, itjust won't learn anything.
Gabe Nathan (29:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um and I also want to say, youknow, we're getting back to
coming to us with your essaythat I'm so glad that you did.
Um I was talking to someone ata at a health advocacy
conference about how she wastalking about how she's going
through something, and shedidn't talk about what it was,
(29:26):
but she said, I'm I'm I'm at thedoorway, feeling like I'm ready
to walk through it and bepublic about what I'm going
through.
And I she said this during apresentation, and I waited until
her presentation was over, andI I pulled her aside and I said,
Um, it's really great thatyou're contemplating that and
(29:48):
everything, but just know thatyou don't have to walk through
that door if you don't want to,if it's not gonna serve you.
Um, not everybody.
Has to tell their story.
Not everybody has to beforward-facing.
Um, there are plenty of peoplewho come to our site to watch
(30:09):
the films and read the essays.
They never comment, they neverpost anything themselves.
They're just there to get helpand hope and read or watch
something or listen to somethingthat they can identify with and
gain strength from.
And like that's great too.
(30:30):
Um, but I am so grateful forall of the people who decide I
want to step forward and tell mystory.
Um and you know, that I get tosit down and talk with you after
working on your essay a longtime ago.
Um it's just really gratifying.
(30:50):
Um and I'm I'm glad that you'rea part of our community of
storytellers.
Just wanted to let you knowthat.
Nicci Atfield (30:56):
I'm just grateful you've helped.
I mean, this was my firstpublication, this was my first
proper sharing, and being ableto have it kind of so respectful
and so honored.
It was amazing.
I mean, then I carried onwriting, which which helped a
lot.
Gabe Nathan (31:15):
Well, it's a it's a a big way to jump into the pool
um with an essay like this.
So I would love it if you wouldshare it with our listeners um
in your own voice.
Okay.
It is an essay called Anxietyirrational, illogical,
catastrophic, and eventuallymanageable.
(31:36):
Take it away.
Nicci Atfield (31:38):
I love that title.
I lived my life like a squarepeg in a round hole.
I gave up an early promisingrelationship I desperately
wanted because I was too scaredto express how I felt.
I tried hard to fit in withcity life, even though I always
wanted to move someplacequieter.
I didn't share what I neededand constantly tried to meet the
needs of others.
(31:58):
I thought I wanted to make theworld a better place, that I
wanted to be a good person, butI didn't start with my own
needs.
I couldn't because I didn'tknow what those needs were.
When I was young, I read thestory of the little Buddha.
In the story, Little Buddhaspent a great deal of time
looking for his keys outside ofhis home.
He couldn't find them, andafter a while his friends came
(32:19):
to help him.
After neither had any luck, hisfriend asked where he might
have last seen the keys.
Oh, they're inside, littleBuddha replied.
Well then why are we lookingfor them outside?
His friends asked.
Oh well it's easier that way,answered Buddha.
It's scary inside, and I don'treally want to go there.
While I laughed at this story,I too had a tendency to look for
(32:42):
answers outside of myself.
It was this tendency that ledto a constant free floating
anxiety and later on panicattacks.
I'd always had a tendencytowards episodic bounce of
anxiety, but one day I noticedthat it had become a con it had
become constant, like anirritable, nagging and wearying
companion.
At first I tried to push itaside, but it wasn't going
(33:05):
anywhere.
Sometimes I could spoil my day,well not sometimes.
It generally spoiled my day.
There was no relief.
Once the problem was resolved,I could and did always imagine
another one.
I'd left the pot on the stove.
I could see the food simmering,drying out, and starting to
burn.
The dog would be harmed by thesmoke.
He was running around the houselooking for an escape from the
(33:27):
toxic acrid air.
He wouldn't find one.
His throat would burn.
The kitchen would burn, thehouse would burn, the
neighborhood would burn.
We have to go home now, I'dshout.
I left the stove on.
And the other person would bevery frustrated.
No, you didn't.
You turned it off.
I've said that thirty timesyesterday as well.
I don't remember.
I don't want the dog to gethurt.
(33:48):
You turned it off.
I saw you.
Okay.
What a relief.
But what if a burglar comes inand the dog gets out and runs
into the road?
He could get hurt.
I knew I was being a irrationaland illogical.
I knew I was being catastmaking catastrophes, and I
couldn't help it.
The incessant fears and doubtswere too overwhelming to ignore.
(34:09):
I didn't want to go to therapy.
My dad had been to therapy onand off, and it hadn't helped.
He struggled with what I nowbelieve were bars of depression.
When I was younger, I didn'tunderstand the stigma attached
to therapy.
I think this prevented him fromsticking with it long enough to
truly heal.
When a doctor recommended I go,I was terrified.
I thought he was saying I haddeep problems that might never
(34:32):
get better, but he wasn't sayingthat.
He was saying that my anxietywas intense.
He was worried I would becomedepressed if I left it any
longer.
He quite sweetly said, whenlife feels like there's a lot to
worry about, it starts to feelshit.
And when it feels shit, you getdepressed.
Once I finally went, therapyhelped me find my voice.
(34:53):
I'd always been very quiet anddidn't talk a lot about what I
needed.
I'd usually search for myanswers in books.
I often felt at war withmyself.
By going to therapy, I learnedto talk.
And once I started speaking, Ididn't stop.
My problems, however, didn'tmagically disappear.
Initially, because I was alwayslooking for my keys while they
(35:13):
were inside.
I thought the therapist wouldtell me how to solve my problems
and all would be well.
Instead, oh gosh, he was sofrustrating, he said, but what
do you want?
What do you need?
It's like, oh gosh, well, Idon't know.
Um and that initially was veryfrustrating.
I was scared that if I were toacknowledge how unhappy I felt,
I would need to make frighteningchanges.
(35:34):
I fought all of my own desiresand longings.
I wanted to under feelunderstood the way I had with
Jacques, the friend I'd secretlyloved.
I also wanted to move out ofthe city.
I wanted to find a creative wayof working.
Not knowing how to ask for whatI wanted made me feel
powerless.
I felt as though I would neverachieve my goals because I just
couldn't put myself out into theworld.
(35:55):
I knew therapy would help andthat it was possibly the only
thing that could help.
And so I kept going.
And then in 2016, my dad died.
And then I started to havepanic attacks.
And when I first came, I didn'tknow what they were.
I thought something wasphysically very wrong.
Um I started to feel dreaddreadful.
(36:17):
I mean beyond dreadful.
I started to feel like I washaving a heart attack.
And I asked one of my friendswho was a psychologist whether
she felt that way.
Um and she didn't.
I wanted to believe my friendfeelings of dread were normal
and that they go away on theirown.
And she said she didn't feelthat way at all.
And I started to worry aboutwhat was happening to me.
(36:37):
I dreaded the attacks.
I started to feel dizzy, Icouldn't catch my breath, and
one night I had a chest pain andI started to think I was having
a heart attack.
And I later I learned thatthese texts uh were about fear,
and they weren't about a fear ofdeath, but of not living the
life I wanted to live.
But it took therapy to getthere.
(36:59):
I still wasn't ready to admitthat I needed to make changes.
I downloaded a couple of appson my iPad.
I had a self-meditation appwhich would take me into a
relaxing setting.
I had an app which helped mebreathe slowly and deeply, and I
had one which helped withbrainwaves.
And all of them, they took offthe intensity, but they didn't
(37:20):
really resolve the problem.
I tried supplements and evennutritional changes.
Uh there was a sort ofneuropathic lady that wrote a
book about if you eat this andyou eat that and you have some
uh fermented foods and thatdidn't work.
And um so my therapist said, Ithink you need a psychiatrist.
And it was with thepsychiatrist's help that I was
(37:42):
able to overcome my fear ofchange.
She put me, she began with betablockers and SSRIs, and I was
scared.
Um, I was scared of SSRIsbecause I thought that they
could be difficult to withdrawfrom.
Um I was worried that there'dbe a placebo, I got all this
stuff that I got in red.
Um I was also worried aboutside effects.
(38:02):
I was worried that if I um Iwas failing, that if I couldn't
go to therapy, that if Icouldn't treat it with therapy,
that if I couldn't eat my wayout of it, that I that I was a
failure.
Um and my psychiatristexplained that, well, yes, you
know, when you've had SSRIs andyou go off them, you might not
(38:24):
feel better, but that meant thatthey hadn't been on them long
enough and I wasn't making anypatterns and forming new
patterns.
And she was really kind and shewas very in control and she
understood all the objections.
She didn't agree with any ofthem, but she understood, and
she was very kind and she wasvery accepting.
And she said that was justabout quality of life, and that
(38:46):
actually panic can kill youbecause if you get a fright and
you run into the road and getrun over by a car, it's really
not a very good thing.
Um, because I did do that.
Um and I did want to feelbetter and I did want to stop
from running in the road ifthere was a car and then nearly
get run over by a truck on theother side of the road.
Um, so the medication made amassive difference.
(39:08):
It reduced my anxiety and fearso that I could start speaking
about what was actually reallywrong.
And I started to talk about howI wanted a different life, how
I was overwhelmed, um, how Ididn't really want to be at
university.
I I wanted to do my ownwriting.
Um, and that I I was feelingquite stifled.
(39:28):
Um and I could achieve thegoals, um, but I didn't think I
could do it as the way it set upmy life at the time.
And I I had a lovely therapist.
I mean, he was such adown-to-earth man.
I always say he was like atree.
He just he just listened and heunderstood and he gave space.
And he just he said, mmm, mmm,he was so kind.
(39:50):
And he didn't need me to be anydifferent, uh, which which my
family had needed.
They'd they'd wanted me to fitin with their version of life.
And um so he helped me shape anew life, and and then I
gradually came off medication.
And that change was hard.
But what my therapist, his nameis Gary, and what he did was he
(40:11):
helped me to trust myselfenough to guide my own life.
Um, and he'd say, Well, what doyou want to do?
And and why is that a problem?
And you know, but if you wantthat, how would you do that?
Um, as opposed to no, no, no,you can't do that.
And um he just didn't need meto be any different.
And also he didn't fight.
I mean, like I tried to arguewith him, well, you know,
(40:32):
because you don't know, and hejust said, Oh, okay, all right,
but you do, and that's whatwe're talking about.
And it was really very good.
Um and so I started to explorehow I felt, and I realized that
by communicating and sharingwhat I needed, I was able to
have honest conversations.
And so then it wasn't aboutwhat do other people need, what
(40:54):
do they need from me, how can Ido it, how can I be this better
person, and how can I betolerant if I think people are
just bossing me around, or howcan I manage this injustice
that's driving me mad?
But like the I actually don'tlike it, and and I don't want to
see that, and I don't want towork with that, and how can I
(41:15):
put myself into a kind of space?
And also uh Jacques.
I I really wanted Jacques.
Um and so eventually I reachedout to him, and when I
reconnected with Jacques, I wasable to share my love for him, I
was able to speak and to assumethat he was going to be okay
(41:37):
with listening to me.
Even if he didn't like it, thenhe would listen, and and he was
thrilled actually.
Um and because I'd accepted myfeelings, there was no need to
keep anything from him and noreason to remain hidden.
And I could understand theimportance of honesty in a
relationship and the value ofcommunication.
So Jacques didn't need to guesswhat was going on.
(41:57):
I didn't just keep quiet.
And that meant we were able tobuild a fulfilling relationship,
and I've been able to have therelationship I've always wanted.
And I was also able to improvethe relationship with my first
child, Danny, and and that wasby telling her, this is how I
feel, this is what is me, thisis who I am as a person, as
opposed to she trying to guess.
(42:18):
Um, and Jock and I also have alittle one called Ava.
And um so therapy showed me thegaps which existed in my life
in a way I'd never seen before.
And that anxiety was abouttrying to speak to me, and and
like my therapist says, my soulsthey don't speak good English,
so they give you symptoms.
(42:39):
And uh it's a way of telling mesomething's wrong.
Um and therapy taught me totrust, okay, well, something is
wrong, and this is what I thinkit is.
Um and I learned to set up alife that was right for me.
And so I I no longer felt feellike a square peg in a round
hole.
And I trusted my therapist, andI thought, well, you know, he
(43:02):
does know this.
So if he's saying it's fine, itprobably is fine.
And that helped me to trustmyself.
And it was a willingness to usemy own insights to guide me
through some like some quitedark and scary places, like to
say, well, I suddenly have tochange my life.
It's it's quite scary.
But that brought the happinessthat I have today.
Um, and I was scared that byembarking on a therapeutic
(43:25):
journey, I'd be admitting that Icouldn't control my life and
that it was falling apart.
And also, I was scared that itwould mean that like whatever
quirky things I had wouldn'tmake me special, but in right
that there at the time.
Um and instead, therapy broughtme the gift of of myself.
I knew myself and I knew what Iwanted.
Um I knew that I could haveboundaries.
I knew that if people weregoing to be rude, I didn't
(43:47):
actually have to put up with it.
So I could uh he said to me,like basically, I don't have to
look after the feelings ofpeople who don't care about
mine.
And so I learned to trust,okay.
Well, I don't like that, so Ididn't have to tiptoe around.
And, you know, I I kind of feellike that helped me to share
myself with my family.
And, you know, I for me therapywas the greatest gift, and I
(44:10):
couldn't have asked for more.
And at the time I didn'tbelieve I was cured from my
anxiety when I wrote this essay.
I know I still have anxiousmoments, and I know I have to
speak through them and identifywhat's wrong, and also to check
like, is this me, what's goingon?
I used to do that a lot.
Um, and at the time I thoughtanxiety helped me to birth a new
(44:32):
self because the symptoms sentme into therapy, and that took
me on a journey throughdarkness, and the journey was
terrifying, and I was unpreparedfor its peaks and valleys, and
I was also very unprepared forthe anxiety of therapy.
Um, but it also brought me homeand home to myself.
Gabe Nathan (44:52):
Thank you so much for sharing that with us and for
reading it, for revisiting it.
Um, what was that like for yougoing back to something that
maybe you haven't looked at oror you know been around for a
while?
Nicci Atfield (45:07):
Um it's different now.
Um so I look back and I kind offeel compassionate for the
person who wrote it.
Um at the time that I wrote it,I didn't know about
neurodivergence.
And um and and that a lot ofwhat I was anxious about was
also being a war.
Um, but I didn't want to livein the city because it was
(45:29):
noisy.
Um I also um I worried about toleaving the stove on because I
did leave the stove on andthings did burn.
And um, and that, you know,like learning to manage if you
have some ADD and you getdistracted and and and that you
struggle with sensory problemsand uh neurodivergence as well,
(45:51):
underlying that.
And and why he was fantastic.
I mean, he was fantastic, and Ithink he did know.
Um, and he didn't label, he wasmore like a psychoanalytical
therapist.
He was very kind.
He didn't label, he told me Iwas anxious because I asked him
if I was anxious.
Someone else said, but you'reso anxious.
So I said, Well, am I anxious?
He said, Well, yes, but he'dnever really spoken about it
(46:14):
before.
Um and he helped me, like, ifyou want to process things
longer, you can take your timeand just tell people I'm
thinking about it.
I'll get back to you later.
Um, he helped me if you getoverwhelmed, you can do things
at a different time.
So he was fantastic withoutlabeling, without ever feeling
judged.
Um But I don't feel that wayanymore because I learned I
(46:39):
went, I spoke to also adifferent person, and that
person gave different uhtechniques.
And she helped me understandsort of body and mind and how
they interrelate and how as aneurodiverse person, how to
manage overwhelm, how to andthen I got less anxious.
Gabe Nathan (46:58):
So I I love the idea of looking back at
something that you wrote a whileago and having compassion for
that person.
And we we talk about havingself-compassion a lot, right, in
the mental health space andgiving yourself grace and
understanding and room.
But it's it's a little bit of adifferent thing to kind of look
back and have compassion forwho you were five years ago.
(47:22):
Um and it's a wonderful thingto be able to have you empathize
with her and um for who she wasback then and also for what she
didn't know uh aboutneurodivergence.
And can you talk a little bitabout I mean, I know you talk
about it in your in your mostrecent essay on the site, but a
(47:42):
just a little bit about whatthat process was like, learning
about that and and kind ofintegrating that knowledge and
understanding into your life andrecovery.
Nicci Atfield (47:53):
Oh, I was I was today with someone in my family
went my uh you want to say whowithout that person's
permission.
But I asked for help for thatperson, and someone said, Well,
it's kind of obvious consideringyou.
Um it was me.
(48:14):
Me, I you know.
Wow.
Um and she said yes, and thenshe helped me understand, okay,
well, there's this and there'sthat, and do you relate to this
and that and and all of asudden, actually in that regard,
my life made sense.
I could look back and say, oh,well, this, yes.
Um and I read a book.
I I read a book aboutneurodivergence and Asperger's
(48:38):
woman and and uh gods.
And I could look at myself andsay, Wow, this was me.
Um, this was me as a child,this is why I feel like a square
peg and around whole.
Not just because the therapisthelped me feel comfortable with
myself and self-accepting, butbecause I was.
Um, because I processeddifferently.
Um, oh, this is why I connectthese weird things and I pull
(48:59):
them together, or um, and ithelps me.
It helps me in my work.
Um, this is why I um I haven'tever uh this is the first time
I'm speaking for the Asperger toanybody putting the first essay
either.
But um this is why I have thismemory.
(49:20):
I can remember things, weirdthings that people have said.
Um and and uh it tick I saw youin a shop once, um, and you
weren't talking to me, but youwere in the background and you
were talking about how youworked at this music studio, you
know, and and people getfrightened.
So then I stopped telling thembecause maybe they don't want to
hear.
Um but there's all of this kindof a a different way of looking
(49:43):
at the world and a differentway of processing it.
Um and and that just byunderstanding that that that I
don't have to perform socially,I can explain to people, well,
well, I just I can't.
I can't.
Um or if I do if I don't giveup on something and I ask
somebody something, and thenthey say okay, they don't quite
(50:04):
get it, and they feel a bit bador something.
I can I know that I can say,okay, but I have Asperger's, I
have to tell you the next step,and then I can close it off.
But I can't just leave it.
Um and I know I can explainmyself to people in a way that
gives kind of a framework.
And I'd always been veryanti-labels, I'd always been
very anti, uh, I liked the thatthe first therapist was great
(50:27):
for me, he was wonderful.
Um, and he didn't ever look atlabels, he just accepted a main
space for me as I was.
But having the power of almostthe cognitive understanding of
this is what's going on, this iswhat was always going on, it
also really helped a lot aswell.
Gabe Nathan (50:47):
And that's you know, you were talking about
reading that piece and and kindof seeing yourself in it and
going, oh God, you know, this isme, this is my story.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (50:58):
This is why we do the work that we do, right?
To help other people understandthemselves through someone
else's lens.
And you were talking about likeokay, essays and other works
that are out there, like, oh,this is what you should do if
you have anxiety.
And um, five tips for managinganxiety.
There's so many essays likethat.
(51:18):
We just want people to telltheir story.
Yeah.
Um, because that's sometimesgoing to be what unlocks
something for someone else.
And I actually forget thatsometimes.
Um that there are people outthere who are undiagnosed or who
are wondering what the hell isgoing on with me and why am I
like this and what am Iexperiencing and what is this
like?
(51:38):
And sometimes by just sittingaround and Googling and
stumbling upon a piece ofwriting um that's literally just
someone sharing about theirexperience can really help move
the needle for someone else.
Um it's really lovely thatyou're you've benefited from
that through other works, andnow other people are benefiting
(51:59):
in that way from yours.
Um and I just love that likethat thread just keeps going on.
It's really it's kind ofmagical, really.
Nicci Atfield (52:10):
This is what I think.
I mean, I remember with thepiece that I read in the
Esquire, the writer, he said, Ijust I felt like banging my
hands into the wall.
Um and when I know that I mightnot bang my hands into the
wall.
I um but like the fee I tend torun away and sit in a dark
room.
But the feeling of just beingso overwhelmed that you feel
(52:31):
like you can pull your hair out.
Um and it it's nice when peoplesay that because you just don't
feel like being overwhelmed,feeling like you just can't
cope, that you've come to theend of your tether, that you
really will pull your hair out.
It's just you know, they talkabout othering.
Like you're just so different,it's just so incomprehensible.
And especially if you come froman English family where one
(52:54):
doesn't, you know, one sits downvery quietly and in a very
demure manner.
And and and and you know, youdon't even say, Oh, that's a
bunch of shit.
You say, Oh my god yeah, uh,you know, I was rather um and
and then when you come from aplace of I'm so overwhelmed, I
(53:15):
feel like I gotta pull my hairout, and everyone's kind of,
what's wrong with you?
It's it's so nice that otherpeople do.
And I never I feel like lessalone when I read things that
are just human actually.
Gabe Nathan (53:31):
And that's the thing, uh like you can post
something on Instagram, like ameme that says you are not
alone, and that's fine.
But actually showing peoplethat they are not alone is very
different.
Um, and I think that that'swhat we do here, and that's what
you do through your yourwriting.
(53:52):
Um you're showing people thatthey are not alone by opening
yourself up and sharing yourexperience.
Um and I'm just so grateful forthat.
And I'm curious about whatyou've got going on now and and
kind of what's next for you.
Nicci Atfield (54:12):
Um I did two things.
Um the f I I said I we moved tothe country.
Um, we got rid of theoverstimulation.
Um we well the little one canmake a lot of noise.
How else we can make a lot ofnoise.
Um but we other than that, umwe moved to a quiet country
(54:35):
town.
So that's part of the essaychanged.
And then I moved out of sort oftrying to work around academia
and work around facilitation andand a lot of very strong
emotions around uh climatechange and climate anxiety, and
started to look at um culturalcriticism, which uh that came
(54:57):
for me as what I wanted to dowhen I was speaking in therapy.
That I want to look at AndrewSolomon said, you know, we look
at people and we try and makepeople feel more comfortable in
the world, um, but also that wetry and make a kinder world.
And and that's what I wanted todo.
I wanted to make a kinderworld.
(55:17):
So I looked at, I startedlooking at TV shows.
Um, and at the moment it's twoof them.
It's The Magic of GilmoreGirls, which is my forthcoming
book.
It should be out next year.
And then The Legend of HouseMD, because House, I believe, is
is neurodivergent.
Um he's very close, he sort ofplays with his ball all day.
(55:38):
Um and and how his brilliancekind of gets taken advantage of
um by the hospital that willcall him a narcissist or
something wrong with you, uh,which is how I always used to
feel.
Um and and that belief thathouse he's just a troubled
genius, um, as opposed toactually maybe the world could
(56:01):
adjust a little bit for him andnot make him the sin eater of
everybody else's problems.
Um and then the Gilmore Girls,it's about women and food and
eating and women's bodies and umexpectation and
intergenerational sort of fightsand trauma and feminism and the
corporate wife and how she'skind of got to dismiss herself
(56:25):
and uh her her needs for herhusband, but then boss everyone
else around to fit in, which youknow I think my family can do
that sometimes.
Gabe Nathan (56:34):
I I just wanted to say I'm so glad that you ended
talking about television becauseI have a television show that
I'm so excited to recommend toyou, especially because you have
a young child.
It is called Carl theCollector.
Are you familiar with it?
Nicci Atfield (56:49):
No, no, I'm not.
Gabe Nathan (56:50):
So Carl the Collector is um uh a public
television program, PBS program,um, and it's animated, and it
is about a raccoon who hasautism, and he is the main
character.
The show is named for him, andhe has collections of everything
(57:11):
um glasses, string.
Um uh his favorite thing is auniversal screwdriver, and he
will talk about it to anyone andeveryone.
And the show is it is socharming and warm, and the child
performers are neurodivergent,um with the voice actors, and um
(57:34):
it's it's a really sparkly,lovely thing that's out there,
and you can watch it online.
Um, every episode is online,it's uh pbskids.org.
And um, I I just think you'lllove it.
I I love it.
Again, it's called Carl theCollector.
So I hope you check it out.
Nicci Atfield (57:54):
Oh, that's right.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for that.
Gabe Nathan (57:58):
And thank you, Nicci, so much for being here
with me today, for being part ofour community of storytellers,
and for making a kinder world.
Nicci Atfield (58:07):
Thank you.
Thanks, Kate.
Gabe Nathan (58:12):
Thank you again for joining us in conversation
today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest for today, Nicci Atfield,
a South African freelance writerand the author of a forthcoming
book about the Gilmore girls.
You can also read both ofNicci's essays on our site, the
(58:34):
one she read today and her morerecent one, How Three Small
Letters A D D changed my life.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiaries.org.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos, and content about mentalhealth, empowerment, and
(58:56):
change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here withoutyou.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay, or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take goodcare.
Hello.
This is Recovery Diaries inDepth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so excited to have asour guest for today Nicci
Atfield coming to us from SouthAfrica.
Nicci's written two essays forRecovery Diaries, one of them
she'll read on the show today.
She's a freelance writer andthe author of a book about the
(00:24):
Gilmore girls.
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor,
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:45):
see what has shifted, what haschanged, and what new things
have emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiaries.org.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment, and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
(01:06):
miss a new podcast episode,essay, or film.
And you can find this podcastpretty much anywhere you get
your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges, and grow.
And of course, make sure tolike, share, and subscribe.
Nicci Atfield, welcome toRecovery Diaries in Depth.
(01:33):
It is such a joy to be sittinghere with you.
Nicci Atfield (01:35):
Thanks, Gabe.
Thank you for inviting me.
Gabe Nathan (01:38):
Um It's a pleasure.
And you're talking to us fromSouth Africa.
Is that right?
That's right.
Um, so this is one of the thisis one of the things that I get
really excited about.
Um being the editor of a mentalhealth publication.
So, you know, we do thepodcast, obviously it's what
(01:58):
people are listening to, and wedo documentary films.
And, you know, we don't havemoney to send our film crew all
over the world to talk topeople.
Um, so our films are mostlybased on in the Philadelphia
area, which is where we reside.
But through the magic of theinternet, we have essay writers
(02:20):
from all over the world umtalking about their lived
experience with mental healthchallenges.
And I'm pretty sure that you'rethe only person um from South
Africa, um, uh with theexception of your husband.
So that's two.
Um we can get to that later.
Um, but can you just tell me inkind of a broad way, what is
(02:45):
the the cultural experience ofmental health, mental illness in
South Africa?
Because I I really don't know.
Are there particular stigmasattached um to certain
diagnoses?
What is getting help like, uminsurance, all of that kind of
stuff?
I have so many questions.
Nicci Atfield (03:06):
Um I don't know either.
I'm I'm originally from the UK.
Um and then my family is veryconservative, you know, very
British, very um, if one doesnot get upset or um stiff upper
lip.
Yeah.
Um just don't worry about it,it'll go away.
Um, I don't know, just more ofa matter kind of thing.
(03:29):
Um and then in South Africa I Ispent a lot of time with my
family.
Um and then I went touniversity and I studied
psychology, so obviously peoplewere quite open.
Um and then I had a a nicementor uh who's amazing as
people who who was a counselingmentor, homage, who who must be
(03:52):
one of the kindest people.
So my idea is that South Africais very much kinder.
You know, there's a lot of workaround community healthcare,
around um counseling.
I was a voluntary counselor.
Um people uh there's trauma andSouth African gender-based
violence, but then the communitythat I got to know are very
activist, very concerned.
(04:14):
So I would say um it'scompassionate.
Um, but that's been myexperience.
Obviously, it's my subjectiveexperience.
Um and then as well, I thinkpeople understand certain things
more than others.
Um so if you have anxiety, Ithink people are quite
understandable.
Understand people get a bitworried.
Um but say people are a bitbipolar or a bit schizophrenic
(04:38):
or something, or you know,something goes wrong.
Um when I was at UCT, somebodywas shouting about being
invisible.
I don't want to be invisibleanymore.
And whether she wasmetaphorical or she really
didn't want, she felt she wasinvisible, I don't know, but
that there was a lot morejudgment.
Um you know, if the studentstalk to each other and said, I'm
really not feeling very well,people said, uh, yeah, that's
(05:02):
terrible.
Um but if you say, um, youknow, I'm worried, that's
horrible, we're all worried.
But if you are feelinginvisible, well, what is she
saying?
And why did she say that?
And why was she having a shout?
And you know, is it a feministthing where women just feel
invisible?
But there was a a formalclinical kind of discussion
(05:23):
around it than the the automaticempathy.
Um so I think it depends what'swrong as well.
Gabe Nathan (05:32):
That it's so interesting that the idea of
being invisible, and I I hearmany people in the mental health
advocacy space me talk aboutthe invisible illness.
And that, you know, people wholive with mental health
challenges, um you usually don'tknow.
(05:54):
And there's a couple of reasonswhy.
Like A, a lot of it's going onin our heads, but also we're
really, really good at masking.
At masking.
We're really, really good atpretending like everything's
fine.
Um and we don't we may want totalk about it, but we don't want
to reveal it, and we don't wantto burden other people with
(06:16):
what's going on with us.
And you know, you have to keepgoing and you have to pretend
and you have to go through allthese social situations and oh
my god, and and suffer throughall of them and then come home
and and collapse.
And I'm just wondering if thatresonates with you, that
experience.
Nicci Atfield (06:33):
Well, yeah.
I mean, I I ended up findingout after the essay that I was
neurodivergence.
Um, and I realized how much Imasked and how draining it was,
and how that was, I mean, I'dalways felt like as great peg in
a round hole, I said that inthe essay.
Um and then like there's peoplewho'll say, you know, you were
(06:56):
always unusual.
And I think, well, how how isunusual?
I was trying so hard not to be,you know, for goodness sake.
Um and um and I know like I'vegot my special interests and I
can get on them or whatever.
Um, but I I do think like forfor so many people with
struggles, it is the masking, itis that hiding away, it is
(07:18):
trying to present as normal.
And then you go read horriblethings like say Val McDermott
and how psychopaths are tryingto present as normal or the mask
of sanity, and you think, oh mygod, that's me.
There's something really wrongwith me.
Um I just this horrible person,and I always knew it.
Especially if you're anxious,you know.
Um and and I think I love GableMate and how there's this
(07:43):
house.
Dr.
House, I'm writing about houseat the moment.
You said there's a circle,there's the circle people, and
we draw a circle around thisbunch of sort of people who fit
in.
And everybody else we want tobreak or or change to get them
to adjust.
And I love that because I thinkit's yeah, that's how we feel,
as people who've you know, wegot uh difficulty and we get
(08:07):
stigmatized because of it.
We just we just pretend and wetry everything to fit in with
these norms that are actually uhin a way kind of pain in the
arse.
Gabe Nathan (08:18):
And so much of the stigma is also internal.
Like there's of course we'refacing stigma from outside, and
and people are looking at us asdifferent, but we're also doing
it to ourselves and and kind ofpunishing ourselves for being
different.
And, you know, God, you youfreak, why can't you just be
normal, right?
Why can't you just be likeeverybody else?
(08:39):
Um, and so it's it's thispunishment and and ostracism
from outside and within, um topof the mental health challenges
that we're already dealing with.
So it's just it it can feel, Ithink, just too much.
Um and I'm wondering how youcope with that.
Nicci Atfield (09:04):
I'm I've got two things.
I've I've got the part of methat doesn't really relate.
Um, so I don't really care.
Like that there's one part ofme that's kind of protected, and
that I'm not very interested insay status or my family is.
I uh uh they talk about it alot.
This one's got a big house,this one's doing well.
(09:24):
And I don't I don't reallythink what are they on about?
You know, so in that sense I'mquite protected.
Um, this person might thinkthat if you wear that, and you
think, oh, that person probablyisn't thinking about me.
Um they're probably thinkingabout something in their own
life.
So that I don't care about.
So in that way I'm veryprotected, but in a sense of why
(09:46):
am I unusual?
I mean, that was always mything.
Why am I unusual?
What what am I doing wrong?
Why can't I get it right?
Um, I must try harder, I mustbe more understanding of people,
I must tiptoe around peoplemore.
Um and I do silly things likemost people who do something, uh
I don't know, I get myself inthis situation so I I can't
necessarily understand, and thenI get them wrong.
(10:08):
Um I don't um like somebody,for example, I uh this is why I
used to tiptoe around people.
I don't I don't reallyunderstand.
So um like somebody say, ifthey say, Well, I'm going to go,
if you don't stop that, I'mgoing to go.
It's like, well, then go if youwant to.
Then actually they don't wantto go.
And other cross and think thatthey've been tossed out.
It's like, well, you said youwanted to go.
(10:30):
I meant to understand you don'twant to.
Then say, I don't want to go.
I want you to be quiet.
Or um uh the window is open andpeople say they are um uh that
I don't know, it's gettingcooler.
It's like, oh yes, it is, andthe weather's changing, it's
getting cooler.
I don't know, they mean that,that I must close the window.
(10:51):
Um and I and then they getcross and think I'm not helping
or being sensitive to them.
So I had this belief that Iwasn't a very kind, sensitive
person, and I must try muchharder.
Um and and there I was veryhard on myself, and I tried to
look and I tried to read and Itried to understand, like, well,
how do you actually be moresupportive or how do you how how
(11:15):
do you become this nice person?
Because clearly I'm not a niceperson.
Um let me and that's why I saidI needed to look outside of
myself.
Um and now I I I I've realizedwe can ask people what do you
mean?
What do you want?
Um but that's that was where Ithink my internal stigma came
(11:35):
from, was just feeling like Icould just never get it right.
Gabe Nathan (11:41):
Also that belief, which of course is a cognitive
distortion of I'm not a niceperson, yeah, is is something
that can really erode andcorrode you over time and um get
in the way of everything,including personal
relationships.
And I wonder if, you know, I Iknow because he's contributed uh
(12:05):
work to our site also that yourhusband you know lives with his
own challenges.
And I I just wonder how thatdynamic plays with the two of
you.
Nicci Atfield (12:17):
With Jacques, I'm really lucky um because he
understands.
Um he's had trauma, so he underhe understands in a different
way what it feels like to be onthe outside.
Um where it's hard is that hecan be very self-critical.
Um so he, for example, um a fewyears back, he went and decided
(12:44):
to book a surprise to have myhair done.
And I didn't really like itbecause the way I was wearing
the wrong colours and it didn'tlook very nice at the time.
And he said, I'm such a stupidperson.
I did this, and it's like,well, you didn't do it, you
didn't cut my hair and notreally listen.
Um and then and then he says,Yes, but I am, I'm a stupid
(13:05):
person.
Uh there it can be hard becauseit's like, well, no, no, I'm
not, you know, and then thereit's hard.
There it's very painful towatch.
Um and I feel bad.
Then I feel like, well, I can'treally say anything, but then
I've got doesn't need to saywhat I think.
Um, and break that sort ofsocial contract of tiptoeing
(13:27):
around.
Um and and and trying to guesswhat people want and what they
think and everything.
Um so there it could have beenit could it it could be a bit
hard.
Gabe Nathan (13:39):
I I wonder so I I think that I share a lot of
similarities with both you andyour husband in terms of my own
mental health and things that Isay to myself or messages that I
tell myself, um why can't youjust be normal really resonates
(14:02):
with me?
Um I'm a terrible person reallyresonates with me.
I'm a stupid person reallyresonates with me.
I fuck everything up, which youdidn't say, but I'll say.
Um, you know, that that reallyresonates with me.
And I think that having mentalhealth challenges where you are
(14:24):
constantly bombarding yourselfwith negative messages about who
you are, obviously it has avery negative effect on you.
But when you're in a romanticpartnership, it's really hard on
the other person because A,like you said, it's really hard
to watch someone you love kindof abuse themselves.
(14:47):
But it's also really hard to bethe one to constantly have to
reassure or help challenge thatnarrative.
I think that that can be a veryheavy thing for the partner.
Um I wonder if you feel thatway.
Nicci Atfield (15:06):
I can't.
Um this is the thing.
Um I think this is where we geton quite well.
Um I tend to tell him what Ithink.
I'll get crossed and say, well,you didn't do it, so uh what
are you on about?
Um and I think that's why weget on because it kind of brings
him back to reality.
Um I can't really do the it'sokay.
(15:30):
Um I I don't know how.
Even when I was counseling, Ididn't know how.
I can meet people where they'reat.
But I can't do performing orplacitude very well.
Um so I get frustrated withhim.
And I say, that's not what Iwas saying.
You didn't cut my hair.
Why is it your problem?
(15:51):
And he says, Because I chosethe lady.
It's like, well, how are youmeant to know?
You're not a psychic person.
Um and then he sort of goes,Oh, no, I'm not.
Um he laughs at me because Ithink I don't form the social
script very well.
Um so like we were in a parkand he said he oh, he was a
(16:11):
stupid person and he couldn'twrite.
I was asking why I didn't writean ebook for his business on
how to do a permaculture garden.
And he said, I'm just a stupidperson, I can't write.
And it's like so I said to him,Well, I'm not actually going to
listen to you until you saysomething nice about yourself.
Just be quiet.
Um I won't listen to you.
And he laughed.
He thought it was very funny.
(16:32):
But it got him until I mean itis.
Is it?
Gabe Nathan (16:37):
But it and it's it's I mean, A, we have evidence
on our site that he can writefor sure.
Um and and but I thinksometimes, yeah.
I think sometimes we need thatsplash of water on the face um
to get us out of it because it'ssuch an incessant feedback
loop.
Um, and it just comes up overand over and over again.
(17:00):
And I think your your strategyof just not engaging in it and
not indulging in it.
Um, I mean, it obviously works.
It's obviously effective foryour relationship.
Nicci Atfield (17:13):
Yeah, it does work.
It it stops that I call it aspiral.
Um it stops the spiral becauseit can get worse and worse.
If there's somebody, it itfeels like a ball, you know.
It comes.
Um I've seen as his sister,he's a much kinder, nicer person
than me.
Um so um I'm a stupid person, Idid this, no, you didn't, and
(17:37):
that went well.
Well, I didn't think that.
And it's like a ball, and hepushes it back to her all the
time.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah.
Nicci Atfield (17:43):
And and uh she tries very hard, and then she
gets, I think, quite helpless.
Um like, but I'm trying to helpyou, and I'm trying no, no, but
I don't see that.
But I think you're great, but Idon't see that I'm great.
I think I'm this terribleperson.
But I'm likely to say, oh gosh,you know, what on earth are you
talking about?
I don't think really, forgoodness sake.
(18:04):
Um it doesn't go on as long.
I'm I'm not as nice a person asshe is.
She's a she's a fantastic, veryempathic, very kind person.
Gabe Nathan (18:14):
Um I think I would I would just say that the the
strategies are different.
Nicci Atfield (18:20):
Yeah, uh they're very different.
Gabe Nathan (18:25):
Um can you talk about what the what works for
you?
We've talked about kind of whathelps Jacques, what what helps
you um get through yourchallenging times?
Nicci Atfield (18:36):
He understands me.
Um he's always understood me.
He's I think he understandsbeing an outsider in the first
place because of the trauma, andI think the trauma made him
feel like he was on the outside.
Um and also because he's uh totiptoe around other people so
much.
Um he's quite relieved hedoesn't have to tiptoe around
me.
I don't get offended veryeasily.
(18:58):
Um I'd say my truth and hetells his.
Um so he tells his truth, andthen we're comfortable with each
other.
I don't feel like I have to uhsay things in a nice way, and if
I don't understand him, he willexplain.
Um and he doesn't, I thinkbecause his mother was so mean,
(19:19):
he don't really doesn't getoffended by me.
So if I come along and I saysomething I don't know, tackless
that would be the word, or notI didn't say the right thing, he
doesn't really care.
He just loves me.
Um and that's been really,really helpful for me.
You know, he knows that if hesays something, I'm going to
(19:39):
take him literally.
Um so if I say it, I mean heknows I'm not gonna be polite
and I'm not going to be reassurehim.
So if he wants that, he'sreally got to go find someone
else.
Um and that's once he does,he's not ready.
Um then he'll go speak to hissister and say, like his mum was
sick, you know, maybe she'sgonna get better.
(20:00):
And his sister will say, Yes,she might.
I'm going to say she might not.
Um and he might not want tohear that.
Um but when he's ready, he willtalk to me and say, um, yes,
it's you know, or he can say, Idon't like this, or um, this is
what I feel, but we don't haveto dance around each other
because doing that social dance,it it's impossible.
(20:23):
I don't know, I don't know howto do it.
Um and and he just doesn'texpect that.
So that for me is an absoluterelief.
Gabe Nathan (20:32):
You you use the phrase um telling your truth,
and he tells his truth, and Itell my truth.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yes.
Gabe Nathan (20:40):
So a number of years ago you came to Recovery
Diaries with your truth, um,your truth at the time, um,
which was a really lovely essay,which you're gonna read on the
site in in uh maybe a coupleminutes.
Um but I'm so curious, I don'treally know the story of how you
(21:02):
found us and came to us, andwhat like what your experience
with mental health storytellingwas before coming to us, and
what it was like to to come tous with this vulnerable thing in
your hands to give us.
So can you talk a little bitabout that if you remember?
Nicci Atfield (21:21):
Uh well, it was.
I found you by reading someoneelse's story.
I there was a girl who wastalking about alcoholism.
Uh I can't remember her name,but her she was a teenager and
she had two stories.
Um and uh she was talking aboutI think it was her dad who was
(21:42):
an alcoholic, it was a whileback.
Um and and then she had afollow-up story as well of her
having gone to therapy and uhassessing her sort of I think
her fears around it.
And I loved it.
I loved the sort of opennessand the sort of story of that.
And there was also uh theEnglish writer Giles Corinne
(22:05):
who'd written aboutpsychoanalysis and the king's
speech.
I love Giles Corin.
Um and um how psychoanalysishelped him.
Um and and uh that was quite alovely story as well.
It was in the squire and andthose two stories.
I kind of felt that it was verydifferent from things you read
(22:27):
on on sites and blogs wherepeople tell you what to think
and they tell you what to do.
Um and how it came from aspace, I come from a space of
reading.
A lot of people saying, whenyou're anxious, you should have
an app, which I didn't try.
Um and the app really didn'thelp, it didn't touch the sides.
Um or when you're anxious, youshould do this.
(22:48):
Um and and having somebody justsay, Well, I was anxious, or I
was upset, or I felt like uhtearing up my hair and hitting
walls.
Um, and then I got better.
Um, I kind of felt like thatwas more true and it was more
helpful to other people.
And I wanted to do that too.
Um so I wrote and said, Well,how about it would you be
(23:08):
interested?
Um I want to tell my story.
Um, and I want to sayspecifically that I tried all
the mind of a matter stuff andit really didn't work, and I had
to go on tablets, and and thatwas my difference.
Gabe Nathan (23:28):
Oh, I have so many things I want to ask you.
But when you you said I had togo on tablets, were you were you
anxious about being onmedication?
Did you were you reluctant?
Because I from my ownexperience, um, I was first
suggested that I should be goingon medication when I was in
college.
And I went to the psychiatristand I had one meeting, and I
(23:52):
said no, and I pushed backagainst it.
And I didn't go on medicationuntil I was 31, 32.
Um, I mean, I I resisted it fora long time.
Um and I really needed it.
Um and I my main reason for notwanting to go on medications is
(24:15):
really dumb.
It was that I was a creativeperson and I was afraid that um
if I was medicated that Iwouldn't be creative anymore.
Um, that if if I felt right inmy brain that, oh, I bought into
this trope that real goodwriting comes from fucked up
people.
And if I'm no longer fucked up,well, I can't, you know, I'm
(24:37):
not gonna be as interesting umon the page anymore, which is so
crazy.
I can't even begin.
But a lot of people buy intothat.
Um so I'm just curious, whatwere your thoughts about
psychiatric medication and andmaybe fears surrounding it?
Nicci Atfield (24:52):
I was actually scared of going to therapy for
that reason.
I was scared that if I went totherapy and I lost my
quirkiness, that I wouldn't Iwouldn't be able to write
because one day I wanted towrite.
Um so that was the first block.
Well, if I go to therapy and Ibecome this ordinary I don't
know how what I thought peoplewent to therapy and became this
ordinary dot.
(25:13):
Um I I wouldn't uh I therewould be a problem.
And then I with medicine it wasactually that I came so much
from that school of thoughts ofum, you know, therapy is it
therapy is the answer.
I studied psychology that Ibelieved I'd failed.
That if I, you know, theanalysis doesn't work, and if
(25:36):
you can't start changing yourown helpful thoughts, and if you
can't make it that I'd failed.
I'd failed at therapy.
Therapist didn't think that.
Um psychiatrist didn't thinkthat, but I thought that.
Gabe Nathan (25:50):
Yeah.
And really if we really thinkabout it and how it was
explained to me was you'relearning all this stuff in
therapy, it's the medicationthat helps unlock the parts of
your brain that are able to thenimplement what you're learning.
So for instance, not to compareus to dogs, but I have a German
(26:14):
shepherd who is super, super,super, super anxious, right?
And like she's great in thehouse and super chill, but when
we take her outside, it's andshe's like I mean, you can hold
the loveliest treat in front ofher face.
She will not even see it.
You call her name, she's she'snot there anymore.
And the trainer, we're finallytraining her after like seven
(26:37):
years.
She's seven years old.
Again, like me, sometimes helpcomes late.
But she's seven years old.
We're finally training her.
Um, the trainer is you know,lives with trauma and PTSD
herself.
She's super good with anxiousdogs and anxious owners.
And she really explained thatlike when Sadie goes outside,
(26:59):
she's all brainstem.
She's all in her reptilianbrain, and she's just
overstimulated and just thetraining is not penetrating her.
She is now on Puppy Prozac,right?
To get her to the point whereshe can go outside and and do
that little brainstem shit, butthen chill so she can get into
(27:24):
her working brain and actuallylearn.
So it's therapy and medsworking in concert with each
other, right?
And for you and me, we may besuch anxious people that simply
going to therapy, and okay, wecan learn stuff and
intellectually we can understandthings, but to then process it
(27:47):
and implement it and and put itinto our daily lives, put it
into practice.
Sometimes you need medicationto be able to slow everything
down to be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (28:00):
So yeah, therapy failed.
Fuck that.
It's not about therapy failing.
It's about these twotherapeutic modalities that
sometimes, you know, need eachother to click.
Nicci Atfield (28:11):
Also, I had this idea.
I mean, like you read it on onsite tonight, you know, the sort
of idea of this person therewent to a Peruvian ceremony and
then they got better.
And I thought that, yeah,that's much nicer.
It's much nicer to go and havean insight and and uh see things
very differently.
(28:31):
Um he really wants to go onsomething, and maybe in six
weeks it'll work, and maybe, youknow, he doesn't, and maybe you
get worse.
Um and the psychiatrist wasreally nice and said, well, if
you want to do that, you can.
Just speak to me um beforethat, because you definitely
mustn't do that.
So it's all right.
(28:52):
But in general, this is is goodfor quality of life.
And she also said, you know,that a Magdala, when it gets
overexcited and overwrought, itjust won't learn anything.
Gabe Nathan (29:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um and I also want to say, youknow, we're getting back to
coming to us with your essaythat I'm so glad that you did.
Um I was talking to someone ata at a health advocacy
conference about how she wastalking about how she's going
through something, and shedidn't talk about what it was,
(29:26):
but she said, I'm I'm I'm at thedoorway, feeling like I'm ready
to walk through it and bepublic about what I'm going
through.
And I she said this during apresentation, and I waited until
her presentation was over, andI I pulled her aside and I said,
Um, it's really great thatyou're contemplating that and
(29:48):
everything, but just know thatyou don't have to walk through
that door if you don't want to,if it's not gonna serve you.
Um, not everybody.
Has to tell their story.
Not everybody has to beforward-facing.
Um, there are plenty of peoplewho come to our site to watch
(30:09):
the films and read the essays.
They never comment, they neverpost anything themselves.
They're just there to get helpand hope and read or watch
something or listen to somethingthat they can identify with and
gain strength from.
And like that's great too.
(30:30):
Um, but I am so grateful forall of the people who decide I
want to step forward and tell mystory.
Um and you know, that I get tosit down and talk with you after
working on your essay a longtime ago.
Um it's just really gratifying.
(30:50):
Um and I'm I'm glad that you'rea part of our community of
storytellers.
Just wanted to let you knowthat.
Nicci Atfield (30:56):
I'm just grateful you've helped.
I mean, this was my firstpublication, this was my first
proper sharing, and being ableto have it kind of so respectful
and so honored.
It was amazing.
I mean, then I carried onwriting, which which helped a
lot.
Gabe Nathan (31:15):
Well, it's a it's a a big way to jump into the pool
um with an essay like this.
So I would love it if you wouldshare it with our listeners um
in your own voice.
Okay.
It is an essay called Anxietyirrational, illogical,
catastrophic, and eventuallymanageable.
(31:36):
Take it away.
Nicci Atfield (31:38):
I love that title.
I lived my life like a squarepeg in a round hole.
I gave up an early promisingrelationship I desperately
wanted because I was too scaredto express how I felt.
I tried hard to fit in withcity life, even though I always
wanted to move someplacequieter.
I didn't share what I neededand constantly tried to meet the
needs of others.
(31:58):
I thought I wanted to make theworld a better place, that I
wanted to be a good person, butI didn't start with my own
needs.
I couldn't because I didn'tknow what those needs were.
When I was young, I read thestory of the little Buddha.
In the story, Little Buddhaspent a great deal of time
looking for his keys outside ofhis home.
He couldn't find them, andafter a while his friends came
(32:19):
to help him.
After neither had any luck, hisfriend asked where he might
have last seen the keys.
Oh, they're inside, littleBuddha replied.
Well then why are we lookingfor them outside?
His friends asked.
Oh well it's easier that way,answered Buddha.
It's scary inside, and I don'treally want to go there.
While I laughed at this story,I too had a tendency to look for
(32:42):
answers outside of myself.
It was this tendency that ledto a constant free floating
anxiety and later on panicattacks.
I'd always had a tendencytowards episodic bounce of
anxiety, but one day I noticedthat it had become a con it had
become constant, like anirritable, nagging and wearying
companion.
At first I tried to push itaside, but it wasn't going
(33:05):
anywhere.
Sometimes I could spoil my day,well not sometimes.
It generally spoiled my day.
There was no relief.
Once the problem was resolved,I could and did always imagine
another one.
I'd left the pot on the stove.
I could see the food simmering,drying out, and starting to
burn.
The dog would be harmed by thesmoke.
He was running around the houselooking for an escape from the
(33:27):
toxic acrid air.
He wouldn't find one.
His throat would burn.
The kitchen would burn, thehouse would burn, the
neighborhood would burn.
We have to go home now, I'dshout.
I left the stove on.
And the other person would bevery frustrated.
No, you didn't.
You turned it off.
I've said that thirty timesyesterday as well.
I don't remember.
I don't want the dog to gethurt.
(33:48):
You turned it off.
I saw you.
Okay.
What a relief.
But what if a burglar comes inand the dog gets out and runs
into the road?
He could get hurt.
I knew I was being a irrationaland illogical.
I knew I was being catastmaking catastrophes, and I
couldn't help it.
The incessant fears and doubtswere too overwhelming to ignore.
(34:09):
I didn't want to go to therapy.
My dad had been to therapy onand off, and it hadn't helped.
He struggled with what I nowbelieve were bars of depression.
When I was younger, I didn'tunderstand the stigma attached
to therapy.
I think this prevented him fromsticking with it long enough to
truly heal.
When a doctor recommended I go,I was terrified.
I thought he was saying I haddeep problems that might never
(34:32):
get better, but he wasn't sayingthat.
He was saying that my anxietywas intense.
He was worried I would becomedepressed if I left it any
longer.
He quite sweetly said, whenlife feels like there's a lot to
worry about, it starts to feelshit.
And when it feels shit, you getdepressed.
Once I finally went, therapyhelped me find my voice.
(34:53):
I'd always been very quiet anddidn't talk a lot about what I
needed.
I'd usually search for myanswers in books.
I often felt at war withmyself.
By going to therapy, I learnedto talk.
And once I started speaking, Ididn't stop.
My problems, however, didn'tmagically disappear.
Initially, because I was alwayslooking for my keys while they
(35:13):
were inside.
I thought the therapist wouldtell me how to solve my problems
and all would be well.
Instead, oh gosh, he was sofrustrating, he said, but what
do you want?
What do you need?
It's like, oh gosh, well, Idon't know.
Um and that initially was veryfrustrating.
I was scared that if I were toacknowledge how unhappy I felt,
I would need to make frighteningchanges.
(35:34):
I fought all of my own desiresand longings.
I wanted to under feelunderstood the way I had with
Jacques, the friend I'd secretlyloved.
I also wanted to move out ofthe city.
I wanted to find a creative wayof working.
Not knowing how to ask for whatI wanted made me feel
powerless.
I felt as though I would neverachieve my goals because I just
couldn't put myself out into theworld.
(35:55):
I knew therapy would help andthat it was possibly the only
thing that could help.
And so I kept going.
And then in 2016, my dad died.
And then I started to havepanic attacks.
And when I first came, I didn'tknow what they were.
I thought something wasphysically very wrong.
Um I started to feel dreaddreadful.
(36:17):
I mean beyond dreadful.
I started to feel like I washaving a heart attack.
And I asked one of my friendswho was a psychologist whether
she felt that way.
Um and she didn't.
I wanted to believe my friendfeelings of dread were normal
and that they go away on theirown.
And she said she didn't feelthat way at all.
And I started to worry aboutwhat was happening to me.
(36:37):
I dreaded the attacks.
I started to feel dizzy, Icouldn't catch my breath, and
one night I had a chest pain andI started to think I was having
a heart attack.
And I later I learned thatthese texts uh were about fear,
and they weren't about a fear ofdeath, but of not living the
life I wanted to live.
But it took therapy to getthere.
(36:59):
I still wasn't ready to admitthat I needed to make changes.
I downloaded a couple of appson my iPad.
I had a self-meditation appwhich would take me into a
relaxing setting.
I had an app which helped mebreathe slowly and deeply, and I
had one which helped withbrainwaves.
And all of them, they took offthe intensity, but they didn't
(37:20):
really resolve the problem.
I tried supplements and evennutritional changes.
Uh there was a sort ofneuropathic lady that wrote a
book about if you eat this andyou eat that and you have some
uh fermented foods and thatdidn't work.
And um so my therapist said, Ithink you need a psychiatrist.
And it was with thepsychiatrist's help that I was
(37:42):
able to overcome my fear ofchange.
She put me, she began with betablockers and SSRIs, and I was
scared.
Um, I was scared of SSRIsbecause I thought that they
could be difficult to withdrawfrom.
Um I was worried that there'dbe a placebo, I got all this
stuff that I got in red.
Um I was also worried aboutside effects.
(38:02):
I was worried that if I um Iwas failing, that if I couldn't
go to therapy, that if Icouldn't treat it with therapy,
that if I couldn't eat my wayout of it, that I that I was a
failure.
Um and my psychiatristexplained that, well, yes, you
know, when you've had SSRIs andyou go off them, you might not
(38:24):
feel better, but that meant thatthey hadn't been on them long
enough and I wasn't making anypatterns and forming new
patterns.
And she was really kind and shewas very in control and she
understood all the objections.
She didn't agree with any ofthem, but she understood, and
she was very kind and she wasvery accepting.
And she said that was justabout quality of life, and that
(38:46):
actually panic can kill youbecause if you get a fright and
you run into the road and getrun over by a car, it's really
not a very good thing.
Um, because I did do that.
Um and I did want to feelbetter and I did want to stop
from running in the road ifthere was a car and then nearly
get run over by a truck on theother side of the road.
Um, so the medication made amassive difference.
(39:08):
It reduced my anxiety and fearso that I could start speaking
about what was actually reallywrong.
And I started to talk about howI wanted a different life, how
I was overwhelmed, um, how Ididn't really want to be at
university.
I I wanted to do my ownwriting.
Um, and that I I was feelingquite stifled.
(39:28):
Um and I could achieve thegoals, um, but I didn't think I
could do it as the way it set upmy life at the time.
And I I had a lovely therapist.
I mean, he was such adown-to-earth man.
I always say he was like atree.
He just he just listened and heunderstood and he gave space.
And he just he said, mmm, mmm,he was so kind.
(39:50):
And he didn't need me to be anydifferent, uh, which which my
family had needed.
They'd they'd wanted me to fitin with their version of life.
And um so he helped me shape anew life, and and then I
gradually came off medication.
And that change was hard.
But what my therapist, his nameis Gary, and what he did was he
(40:11):
helped me to trust myselfenough to guide my own life.
Um, and he'd say, Well, what doyou want to do?
And and why is that a problem?
And you know, but if you wantthat, how would you do that?
Um, as opposed to no, no, no,you can't do that.
And um he just didn't need meto be any different.
And also he didn't fight.
I mean, like I tried to arguewith him, well, you know,
(40:32):
because you don't know, and hejust said, Oh, okay, all right,
but you do, and that's whatwe're talking about.
And it was really very good.
Um and so I started to explorehow I felt, and I realized that
by communicating and sharingwhat I needed, I was able to
have honest conversations.
And so then it wasn't aboutwhat do other people need, what
(40:54):
do they need from me, how can Ido it, how can I be this better
person, and how can I betolerant if I think people are
just bossing me around, or howcan I manage this injustice
that's driving me mad?
But like the I actually don'tlike it, and and I don't want to
see that, and I don't want towork with that, and how can I
(41:15):
put myself into a kind of space?
And also uh Jacques.
I I really wanted Jacques.
Um and so eventually I reachedout to him, and when I
reconnected with Jacques, I wasable to share my love for him, I
was able to speak and to assumethat he was going to be okay
(41:37):
with listening to me.
Even if he didn't like it, thenhe would listen, and and he was
thrilled actually.
Um and because I'd accepted myfeelings, there was no need to
keep anything from him and noreason to remain hidden.
And I could understand theimportance of honesty in a
relationship and the value ofcommunication.
So Jacques didn't need to guesswhat was going on.
(41:57):
I didn't just keep quiet.
And that meant we were able tobuild a fulfilling relationship,
and I've been able to have therelationship I've always wanted.
And I was also able to improvethe relationship with my first
child, Danny, and and that wasby telling her, this is how I
feel, this is what is me, thisis who I am as a person, as
opposed to she trying to guess.
(42:18):
Um, and Jock and I also have alittle one called Ava.
And um so therapy showed me thegaps which existed in my life
in a way I'd never seen before.
And that anxiety was abouttrying to speak to me, and and
like my therapist says, my soulsthey don't speak good English,
so they give you symptoms.
(42:39):
And uh it's a way of telling mesomething's wrong.
Um and therapy taught me totrust, okay, well, something is
wrong, and this is what I thinkit is.
Um and I learned to set up alife that was right for me.
And so I I no longer felt feellike a square peg in a round
hole.
And I trusted my therapist, andI thought, well, you know, he
(43:02):
does know this.
So if he's saying it's fine, itprobably is fine.
And that helped me to trustmyself.
And it was a willingness to usemy own insights to guide me
through some like some quitedark and scary places, like to
say, well, I suddenly have tochange my life.
It's it's quite scary.
But that brought the happinessthat I have today.
Um, and I was scared that byembarking on a therapeutic
(43:25):
journey, I'd be admitting that Icouldn't control my life and
that it was falling apart.
And also, I was scared that itwould mean that like whatever
quirky things I had wouldn'tmake me special, but in right
that there at the time.
Um and instead, therapy broughtme the gift of of myself.
I knew myself and I knew what Iwanted.
Um I knew that I could haveboundaries.
I knew that if people weregoing to be rude, I didn't
(43:47):
actually have to put up with it.
So I could uh he said to me,like basically, I don't have to
look after the feelings ofpeople who don't care about
mine.
And so I learned to trust,okay.
Well, I don't like that, so Ididn't have to tiptoe around.
And, you know, I I kind of feellike that helped me to share
myself with my family.
And, you know, I for me therapywas the greatest gift, and I
(44:10):
couldn't have asked for more.
And at the time I didn'tbelieve I was cured from my
anxiety when I wrote this essay.
I know I still have anxiousmoments, and I know I have to
speak through them and identifywhat's wrong, and also to check
like, is this me, what's goingon?
I used to do that a lot.
Um, and at the time I thoughtanxiety helped me to birth a new
(44:32):
self because the symptoms sentme into therapy, and that took
me on a journey throughdarkness, and the journey was
terrifying, and I was unpreparedfor its peaks and valleys, and
I was also very unprepared forthe anxiety of therapy.
Um, but it also brought me homeand home to myself.
Gabe Nathan (44:52):
Thank you so much for sharing that with us and for
reading it, for revisiting it.
Um, what was that like for yougoing back to something that
maybe you haven't looked at oror you know been around for a
while?
Nicci Atfield (45:07):
Um it's different now.
Um so I look back and I kind offeel compassionate for the
person who wrote it.
Um at the time that I wrote it,I didn't know about
neurodivergence.
And um and and that a lot ofwhat I was anxious about was
also being a war.
Um, but I didn't want to livein the city because it was
(45:29):
noisy.
Um I also um I worried about toleaving the stove on because I
did leave the stove on andthings did burn.
And um, and that, you know,like learning to manage if you
have some ADD and you getdistracted and and and that you
struggle with sensory problemsand uh neurodivergence as well,
(45:51):
underlying that.
And and why he was fantastic.
I mean, he was fantastic, and Ithink he did know.
Um, and he didn't label, he wasmore like a psychoanalytical
therapist.
He was very kind.
He didn't label, he told me Iwas anxious because I asked him
if I was anxious.
Someone else said, but you'reso anxious.
So I said, Well, am I anxious?
He said, Well, yes, but he'dnever really spoken about it
(46:14):
before.
Um and he helped me, like, ifyou want to process things
longer, you can take your timeand just tell people I'm
thinking about it.
I'll get back to you later.
Um, he helped me if you getoverwhelmed, you can do things
at a different time.
So he was fantastic withoutlabeling, without ever feeling
judged.
Um But I don't feel that wayanymore because I learned I
(46:39):
went, I spoke to also adifferent person, and that
person gave different uhtechniques.
And she helped me understandsort of body and mind and how
they interrelate and how as aneurodiverse person, how to
manage overwhelm, how to andthen I got less anxious.
Gabe Nathan (46:58):
So I I love the idea of looking back at
something that you wrote a whileago and having compassion for
that person.
And we we talk about havingself-compassion a lot, right, in
the mental health space andgiving yourself grace and
understanding and room.
But it's it's a little bit of adifferent thing to kind of look
back and have compassion forwho you were five years ago.
(47:22):
Um and it's a wonderful thingto be able to have you empathize
with her and um for who she wasback then and also for what she
didn't know uh aboutneurodivergence.
And can you talk a little bitabout I mean, I know you talk
about it in your in your mostrecent essay on the site, but a
(47:42):
just a little bit about whatthat process was like, learning
about that and and kind ofintegrating that knowledge and
understanding into your life andrecovery.
Nicci Atfield (47:53):
Oh, I was I was today with someone in my family
went my uh you want to say whowithout that person's
permission.
But I asked for help for thatperson, and someone said, Well,
it's kind of obvious consideringyou.
Um it was me.
(48:14):
Me, I you know.
Wow.
Um and she said yes, and thenshe helped me understand, okay,
well, there's this and there'sthat, and do you relate to this
and that and and all of asudden, actually in that regard,
my life made sense.
I could look back and say, oh,well, this, yes.
Um and I read a book.
I I read a book aboutneurodivergence and Asperger's
(48:38):
woman and and uh gods.
And I could look at myself andsay, Wow, this was me.
Um, this was me as a child,this is why I feel like a square
peg and around whole.
Not just because the therapisthelped me feel comfortable with
myself and self-accepting, butbecause I was.
Um, because I processeddifferently.
Um, oh, this is why I connectthese weird things and I pull
(48:59):
them together, or um, and ithelps me.
It helps me in my work.
Um, this is why I um I haven'tever uh this is the first time
I'm speaking for the Asperger toanybody putting the first essay
either.
But um this is why I have thismemory.
(49:20):
I can remember things, weirdthings that people have said.
Um and and uh it tick I saw youin a shop once, um, and you
weren't talking to me, but youwere in the background and you
were talking about how youworked at this music studio, you
know, and and people getfrightened.
So then I stopped telling thembecause maybe they don't want to
hear.
Um but there's all of this kindof a a different way of looking
(49:43):
at the world and a differentway of processing it.
Um and and that just byunderstanding that that that I
don't have to perform socially,I can explain to people, well,
well, I just I can't.
I can't.
Um or if I do if I don't giveup on something and I ask
somebody something, and thenthey say okay, they don't quite
(50:04):
get it, and they feel a bit bador something.
I can I know that I can say,okay, but I have Asperger's, I
have to tell you the next step,and then I can close it off.
But I can't just leave it.
Um and I know I can explainmyself to people in a way that
gives kind of a framework.
And I'd always been veryanti-labels, I'd always been
very anti, uh, I liked the thatthe first therapist was great
(50:27):
for me, he was wonderful.
Um, and he didn't ever look atlabels, he just accepted a main
space for me as I was.
But having the power of almostthe cognitive understanding of
this is what's going on, this iswhat was always going on, it
also really helped a lot aswell.
Gabe Nathan (50:47):
And that's you know, you were talking about
reading that piece and and kindof seeing yourself in it and
going, oh God, you know, this isme, this is my story.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah.
Gabe Nathan (50:58):
This is why we do the work that we do, right?
To help other people understandthemselves through someone
else's lens.
And you were talking about likeokay, essays and other works
that are out there, like, oh,this is what you should do if
you have anxiety.
And um, five tips for managinganxiety.
There's so many essays likethat.
(51:18):
We just want people to telltheir story.
Yeah.
Um, because that's sometimesgoing to be what unlocks
something for someone else.
And I actually forget thatsometimes.
Um that there are people outthere who are undiagnosed or who
are wondering what the hell isgoing on with me and why am I
like this and what am Iexperiencing and what is this
like?
(51:38):
And sometimes by just sittingaround and Googling and
stumbling upon a piece ofwriting um that's literally just
someone sharing about theirexperience can really help move
the needle for someone else.
Um it's really lovely thatyou're you've benefited from
that through other works, andnow other people are benefiting
(51:59):
in that way from yours.
Um and I just love that likethat thread just keeps going on.
It's really it's kind ofmagical, really.
Nicci Atfield (52:10):
This is what I think.
I mean, I remember with thepiece that I read in the
Esquire, the writer, he said, Ijust I felt like banging my
hands into the wall.
Um and when I know that I mightnot bang my hands into the
wall.
I um but like the fee I tend torun away and sit in a dark
room.
But the feeling of just beingso overwhelmed that you feel
(52:31):
like you can pull your hair out.
Um and it it's nice when peoplesay that because you just don't
feel like being overwhelmed,feeling like you just can't
cope, that you've come to theend of your tether, that you
really will pull your hair out.
It's just you know, they talkabout othering.
Like you're just so different,it's just so incomprehensible.
And especially if you come froman English family where one
(52:54):
doesn't, you know, one sits downvery quietly and in a very
demure manner.
And and and and you know, youdon't even say, Oh, that's a
bunch of shit.
You say, Oh my god yeah, uh,you know, I was rather um and
and then when you come from aplace of I'm so overwhelmed, I
(53:15):
feel like I gotta pull my hairout, and everyone's kind of,
what's wrong with you?
It's it's so nice that otherpeople do.
And I never I feel like lessalone when I read things that
are just human actually.
Gabe Nathan (53:31):
And that's the thing, uh like you can post
something on Instagram, like ameme that says you are not
alone, and that's fine.
But actually showing peoplethat they are not alone is very
different.
Um, and I think that that'swhat we do here, and that's what
you do through your yourwriting.
(53:52):
Um you're showing people thatthey are not alone by opening
yourself up and sharing yourexperience.
Um and I'm just so grateful forthat.
And I'm curious about whatyou've got going on now and and
kind of what's next for you.
Nicci Atfield (54:12):
Um I did two things.
Um the f I I said I we moved tothe country.
Um, we got rid of theoverstimulation.
Um we well the little one canmake a lot of noise.
How else we can make a lot ofnoise.
Um but we other than that, umwe moved to a quiet country
(54:35):
town.
So that's part of the essaychanged.
And then I moved out of sort oftrying to work around academia
and work around facilitation andand a lot of very strong
emotions around uh climatechange and climate anxiety, and
started to look at um culturalcriticism, which uh that came
(54:57):
for me as what I wanted to dowhen I was speaking in therapy.
That I want to look at AndrewSolomon said, you know, we look
at people and we try and makepeople feel more comfortable in
the world, um, but also that wetry and make a kinder world.
And and that's what I wanted todo.
I wanted to make a kinderworld.
(55:17):
So I looked at, I startedlooking at TV shows.
Um, and at the moment it's twoof them.
It's The Magic of GilmoreGirls, which is my forthcoming
book.
It should be out next year.
And then The Legend of HouseMD, because House, I believe, is
is neurodivergent.
Um he's very close, he sort ofplays with his ball all day.
(55:38):
Um and and how his brilliancekind of gets taken advantage of
um by the hospital that willcall him a narcissist or
something wrong with you, uh,which is how I always used to
feel.
Um and and that belief thathouse he's just a troubled
genius, um, as opposed toactually maybe the world could
(56:01):
adjust a little bit for him andnot make him the sin eater of
everybody else's problems.
Um and then the Gilmore Girls,it's about women and food and
eating and women's bodies and umexpectation and
intergenerational sort of fightsand trauma and feminism and the
corporate wife and how she'skind of got to dismiss herself
(56:25):
and uh her her needs for herhusband, but then boss everyone
else around to fit in, which youknow I think my family can do
that sometimes.
Gabe Nathan (56:34):
I I just wanted to say I'm so glad that you ended
talking about television becauseI have a television show that
I'm so excited to recommend toyou, especially because you have
a young child.
It is called Carl theCollector.
Are you familiar with it?
Nicci Atfield (56:49):
No, no, I'm not.
Gabe Nathan (56:50):
So Carl the Collector is um uh a public
television program, PBS program,um, and it's animated, and it
is about a raccoon who hasautism, and he is the main
character.
The show is named for him, andhe has collections of everything
(57:11):
um glasses, string.
Um uh his favorite thing is auniversal screwdriver, and he
will talk about it to anyone andeveryone.
And the show is it is socharming and warm, and the child
performers are neurodivergent,um with the voice actors, and um
(57:34):
it's it's a really sparkly,lovely thing that's out there,
and you can watch it online.
Um, every episode is online,it's uh pbskids.org.
And um, I I just think you'lllove it.
I I love it.
Again, it's called Carl theCollector.
So I hope you check it out.
Nicci Atfield (57:54):
Oh, that's right.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for that.
Gabe Nathan (57:58):
And thank you, Nicci, so much for being here
with me today, for being part ofour community of storytellers,
and for making a kinder world.
Nicci Atfield (58:07):
Thank you.
Thanks, Kate.
Gabe Nathan (58:12):
Thank you again for joining us in conversation
today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest for today, Nicci Atfield,
a South African freelance writerand the author of a forthcoming
book about the Gilmore girls.
You can also read both ofNicci's essays on our site, the
(58:34):
one she read today and her morerecent one, How Three Small
Letters A D D changed my life.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiaries.org.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
videos, and content about mentalhealth, empowerment, and
(58:56):
change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here withoutyou.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay, or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take goodcare.
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