December 23, 2024 • 49 mins
Rebecca Wei Hsieh finds her voice, writing about suicidality and OCD in her personal essay, "Now What?: Suicidality and Planning for an Uncertain Present". She wrote it several years ago, when she was at the very beginning of her career, coping with family relationships she deemed "fractured" and it seemed like the future was impossible to plan. In many ways, Rebecca was, at that point, not that different from others her age navigating the complexities of life and family, but Rebecca was doing all of that while attempting to extract herself from thoughts of suicide and symptoms of OCD that were, at times, controlling. Now it's 2024 and Rebecca is well established in her career, she is doing the work of maintaining her mental health, she is slowly exploring rebuilding some family relationships, and her views on life, work, and mental health are explored with an introspective sincerity on this episode of our podcast, Recovery Diaries in Depth.
Rebecca shares about how publishing her essay under her real name was an empowering decision and one that she embraced as a component of her mental health journey. Perhaps one of the most powerful and heart-stopping portions of the interview is where Rebecca vividly describes how, at age 12, she told her mother that she was struggling with thoughts of suicide.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh doesn't shy away from talking about the hard stuff, the real stuff, the issues we need to be speaking about and addressing. People like her are the reason why we do this show. We're so proud to have had a chance to speak with Rebecca and to share her with you. We hope you enjoy her interview, and her wonderful essay reading as well.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:01):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
We have a wonderful guest foryou today.
It is Rebecca Wei Hsieh.
She's an actor and a writer.
She came to us back in 2017with an essay about chronic
suicidality and other mentalhealth challenges and we are so
happy to have her here today tosee where she is and how she is.
(00:23):
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast health,empowerment and change.
(01:05):
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere you get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Course, make sure to like,share and subscribe.
(01:30):
Rebecca Weishia, thank you somuch for being here.
It's a delight to have you here.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (01:34):
Thanks so much for having me.
Gabe Nathan (01:42):
You're very welcome and I have to say I did not
work with you as your editor onyour original essay that you
sent to us a few years ago.
Our editor, Laura Farrell, didand I was going over it, you
know to prepare for the episodeand you're such a talented
writer, it was such a joy toread your piece.
Thank you.
What was it like to work onwith Laura?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (02:04):
So Laura actually gave me a lot of
freedom in terms of, like, whatto cover, and for that I'm
really grateful to be able towrite something that really
centers my story, rather than anessay or like an analytical
piece, which is what my otherwork has mostly been, and so for
(02:27):
that I'm really grateful.
She also, you know, gave mesome more pointers regarding you
know how best to convey moretechnical information you know
about OCD, things like that to abroader audience.
So that was really helpful.
Gabe Nathan (02:41):
That's wonderful.
It's really nice to hear.
I'm always surprised.
I read every submission thatcomes through and some people
send us submissions with likefootnotes and endnotes and
citations.
I'm like no, no, no, no, no,it's a personal essay.
It's you're the expert here,the expert in your own personal
(03:07):
experience.
So we don't want anybody citinganyone else or obviously not
saying anything like outwardlyerroneous, but it's your
personal experience and that'swhat we want here and it's what
you gave us so beautifully.
So thank you for that.
Thank you.
In going back to your essay, youdescribed yourself towards the
end of it.
Well, the sentence starts outwith I'm so, so lost.
(03:29):
And then you describe yourselfas an early career actor and
writer, not knowing when I'llbook my next gig.
I'm a queer woman of color in ahostile society, and my
relationship with my birthfamily is fractured at best.
That is a snapshot of a humanbeing in a very specific point
in time.
(03:49):
How would you describe yourselfnow, and does that description
still resonate with you?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (03:57):
Yes to the resonating part.
But at the same time I feellike I've become more than that,
like there are otherdescriptors that describe me
better now like I'm still lost,you know, I'm still.
You know, not knowing what I do, not really knowing what when
(04:19):
the next gig is, um.
But also I'm a lot morecomfortable in the not knowing
and I know that I sort of likecovered that in that first essay
, saying that like, oh, I'm okaywith not knowing.
But like in retrospect, I don'tthink I was really 100% there
and I think in a few years maybeI'll look back on where I am
(04:40):
right now and think, yeah, itwasn't entirely okay, but right
now I feel like reallycomfortable in it.
Gabe Nathan (04:47):
How did you get there?
So let's look at do youremember when you sent this
essay in and when we publishedit?
Do you remember what year itwas?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (04:55):
It was.
I think it was 2018.
Gabe Nathan (04:58):
That resonates with me.
I was going to say 2017, 2018.
Okay, so we're in the scope ofa young life.
You're pretty far along now.
How did you get to that greatercomfort level with still being
lost?
What happened in that realmbetween the time you published
(05:20):
your essay to now, to help youget there?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (05:28):
the time you published your essay to now to
help you get there.
I think the pandemic wasdefinitely, you know, a huge
part of that, in that it reallygave me a greater sense of
perspective of what life can be,where it's just like I wasn't
working all that much because of, you know, the industry
shutting down and things likethat, and so I was able to
explore my interests outside ofacting, outside of writing, and
(05:55):
being able to sort of definemyself outside of work I think
really helped me mature as ahuman and just get to know
myself better, and in that,knowing that there's always more
to explore about myself at anygiven time, I think that really
helped with, you know, beingcomfortable with the unknown,
because there are things aboutmyself that I don't know.
(06:16):
So, of course, there are thingsabout, you know, the world or
the future that I don't know,and that's perfectly fine.
Gabe Nathan (06:24):
And what better time to become comfortable with
not knowing what's going tohappen when a time when the
entire world was flipped on itshead, when suddenly no one knew
what was going on or what wasgoing to happen, or feeling
completely out of control.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (06:38):
Yeah, and I actually this might be kind of
awful to say, but it helped toknow that other people are also
like kind of like flapping aboutnot really knowing what to do.
Gabe Nathan (06:53):
Why does that feel awful to say?
I'm curious.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (06:55):
I don't know, because it feels like I'm sort
of like I don't want to likemake light of how horrible the
pandemic was, because a lot, ofcourse, a lot of like lives were
lost, a lot of long termdisability with long covid and
things like that, and I hatethat other people were
struggling and feeling lost, um,and I don't want them to feel
that way, but at the same time,there was something really
(07:17):
comforting about that yeah, andI think, look to be honest, I
think about those kind of thingswhen I think about the work
that we do here at RecoveryDiaries.
Gabe Nathan (07:29):
So how do we help people?
We help people by presentingstories of people struggling so
that other people know thatthey're not alone in their
struggling.
And so the same argument couldbe made here, right alone.
And they're struggling, and sothe same argument could be made
here, right, we have thiscompendium of personal essays
and films that are about hopeand resiliency and recovery.
(07:52):
Yes, but they're also aboutstruggle and despair.
So someone could say well, youknow, I feel so much better
knowing that there's people inRwanda and India and Australia
and Scotland struggling withmental health challenges because
of recovery diaries.
It helps me know I'm not alone.
We're not saying we're gladthat they're going through these
(08:13):
things, we're just they'regoing through them anyway, but
(08:36):
at least that can then helpsomebody else.
Yeah, definitely, but that issomething that your therapist
identified you as.
Is that something?
Well, I guess?
My first question is did youresonate with that description
at that time?
And how did it feel to have amental health provider say you
(08:57):
know, this is who I think youare.
I think you're just you know,like I have chronic asthma.
I'm always going to have thisBasically telling you this is
your lot in life.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (09:08):
There was definitely a part of me that was
like sad about it, but at thesame time I definitely felt
almost like a sense of reliefthat even though it's not like a
medical term or medicaldiagnosis or anything like that
that somebody put it to words.
(09:28):
Um, especially because when Iwas growing up, whenever I told
anyone that I was struggling,that I was suicidal, that was
always immediately brushed offum, and so it was almost like
having somebody not necessarilyembrace, but like embrace and
(09:51):
like see what it was like havingsomebody see a core part of my
experience growing up andfinally admitting that it exists
, that it happened, if thatmakes any sense.
Gabe Nathan (10:11):
Well, sure, In a way you're looking to be heard
and validated and you weren'tgetting that.
I'm assuming you were tellingfamily members that you were
suicidal.
Yes.
Yeah, and what do we need whenwe're crying out?
We need someone to hear us andvalidate us and say that I see
(10:31):
you and I hear you and I'mtaking what you're telling me at
face value and not dismissingit, and you just weren't getting
that.
Yeah, definitely.
At what age were you tellingyour family this?
I mean, I'm asking kind of forpersonal reasons too.
Yeah, definitely compulsivetendencies, and I want to touch
(10:53):
on another thing related to thatlater.
But I also had an experiencecoming to my mother as a little
boy and telling her that Ineeded help Not telling her that
I was suicidal, but that Ineeded help and I needed to talk
(11:16):
to someone.
And the response that I got wasoh Gabriel, you're fine,
there's nothing wrong with you.
And it just felt like such asmackdown and, as a result, I
didn't see a therapist untilcollege, when I didn't have to
ask permission.
And I'm just wondering if youhad a similar experience.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (11:40):
Yes, so I was 12.
I remember it very vividly themoment my mother was watching TV
, the bedroom light was off, soit was just the glow, like the
bluish glow of that TV, and Ihad already been like really
visibly struggling for like avery long while.
(12:06):
While I could tell that, youknow, my mother was at her wit's
end.
My entire family didn't quiteknow what to do with me or the
fact that I was like havingthese like meltdowns all the
time.
But I remember walking intothat room taking a deep breath
and saying, hey, ma, I want todie, and her just like
(12:29):
immediately getting so I don'twant to say like aggressive, but
like quite confrontationalabout it, because she didn't
really know what to do with thatinformation.
And so, frankly, her responsewas you know what, go ahead, wow
.
And the thing is like, at thetime I knew that that was not a
(12:55):
good response, but I always kindof like brushed it off jokingly
until I got to college when Isort of like was part of this
mental health advocacy group andI mentioned it and I was like
haha, that's like that's messedup, isn't it?
(13:15):
And then my friends were likesitting around a table and
looking at me with these likehuge, like eyes wide as saucers.
Gabe Nathan (13:24):
It's the record scratch moment in the film where
it stops.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (13:28):
And they were like Rebecca, this person gave
you life and she told you to goahead.
And I was like oh, that reallyis messed up, isn't it?
Gabe Nathan (13:40):
Her response to you is stunning.
But it's also stunning to mehow certain things that should
be painfully obvious are onlytruly revealed when they're
reflected back to us from others.
I mean, I can remember tellingstories about my father in
therapy that were family jokesand my therapist looking at me
(14:04):
like oh my God, and I'm laughingin the therapist's office until
I look up and see his face I'mlike, oh, this is only funny to
me, and it's only funny to mebecause I've kind of programmed
myself to regard it as funny orbecause that's how we as a
(14:24):
family chose to deal with it.
And it's only when an outsideris brought in that they're like
no, no, no, no, no.
This is actually really fuckedup what you're telling me.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (14:34):
Yeah, I definitely, I definitely again,
like I always had like thisinkling that like, yeah, it is
messed up, but it is what it is.
Ha ha, move it like, move on,brush it off.
And I don't think I allowedmyself, like you said, I kind of
like programmed myself to reactthat way because I didn't
really have that room or thecapacity to really sort of break
(14:57):
down what that comment, whatthat sentiment meant in that
time, especially when I was soyoung and still dependent on you
know, the adults around me inmy life.
Gabe Nathan (15:09):
Do you have a relationship with your mother?
If you don't mind my asking.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (15:13):
Yes, I recently, about like one or two
years ago started speaking toher again.
Gabe Nathan (15:18):
May I ask how that's going?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (15:21):
It's going well.
I think I definitely still needto like brace myself a little
bit emotionally before, you know, speaking with her, but it's
getting easier every time.
I think what really helped wasthat I finally got like an
actual apology from her and shehad, you know, given me
(15:45):
non-pologies before of course umyou know, denying that, oh,
like it never happened.
Gabe Nathan (15:51):
But if it did, I'm sorry I'm sorry you feel that
this happened.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (15:54):
Yeah, yeah but a few years ago was when she
finally sort of I don't know ifshe actually remembers any of
it, but it was the first timeshe actually fully acknowledged
the hurt that she caused.
Um, and what really struck mewhen she apologized was that she
(16:17):
said she wanted to reconcilebecause I was still so young and
it wasn't fair for me to behung up on this, to be stuck
here with this trauma.
And that was such a markeddifference from her other like
quote-unquote apologies so far,where it was obvious that, like
she was apologizing for her ownsake, to assuage her own guilt
yes, that's a pretty significantleap yeah do you think's I mean
(16:46):
, and you're kind of early on inthat reconciliation, even still
a year or two in do you thinkthat it's been positive for your
mental health?
Yes, I think for the most part.
I of course want to have thoseboundaries in place.
I want to be able to keepsupporting myself by myself, you
(17:08):
know, financially, emotionallyand things like that, but
knowing that there is someonethere if things just absolutely
fall apart, I think that hasreally helped.
Gabe Nathan (17:21):
That's great.
Helped, that's great.
I want to kind of go back intime a little bit to when you
published with us, because I dowant to get into your reading of
your essay, which I'm very,very excited for.
What did it feel like to see itout there in the world, and did
(17:48):
you have reservations aboutthat?
Because you know, I realizedthat we're kind of a little bit
different publication than someothers.
You know, we don't allow forpeople to publish anonymously or
with a pseudonym.
We use real photos.
We've got your bio there.
Did it feel a little bit nakedor uncomfortable or, you know,
did you?
Did you have anxieties aroundit?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (18:08):
Yes and no Um cause, like in college and even
back in high school, like I wasalready starting to talk really
openly about all my like mentalillness, like my mental
struggles and things like that.
Um, sometimes I've writtenforms, sometimes just like with
my classmates and likeexplaining these sort of like
(18:33):
issues with them.
But looking back, I don't thinkat that time whether it's
during high school or college Iwas really quite ready to do any
of that.
I think at that time I had thissense of like I had to make
this trauma worthwhile and inorder for it to mean something,
(18:56):
it means I have to use it tohelp other people.
But at the same time, I wasn'tat that stage where I was ready
to do that Not really.
It came more out of a sense oflike obligation, and so it was
very much a situation in highschool and college where I was
basically like taking a scab andlike scratching it over and
(19:18):
over and over again to showother other people how it bled.
But by the time it got to like2018, I definitely felt that
that scab was more or less morelike a scar, like a fresh scar,
(19:39):
but at least the skin was likecovered and healed, and so it
was.
It didn't really come out of asense of like obligation, so
much as like wanting to expressmyself like properly, on my own
terms and for the anonymity Idon't really know.
(20:03):
I never really thought of thatas an issue.
I think If anything I wantedpeople to know, it was me.
Yeah, I think if anything Iwanted people to know, it was me
, because that is my story andmaybe this is, I don't know,
vain or self-indulgent oranything like that, maybe.
Gabe Nathan (20:28):
But I want people to know that's me and I want
people to see me, for you knowwho I am, what I am, yeah yeah,
I mean, obviously I'm biased asthe Executive Director of a site
that asks people for theirpersonal recovery stories, but I
think it's totally, um totallyanathema to being
(20:51):
self-interested or anything likethat.
I think it's one of the mostmagnanimous things that you can
do, which is to give a part ofyourself to other human beings,
and I think that's what peopleare doing through these essays.
You're really giving and givinga lot.
(21:11):
I think giving a lot to otherpeople and really asking for
nothing in return.
And I at the risk of hyperboleI really do think it's very
brave, and not just of you.
I think every single one of ourcontributors is very brave,
putting out into the world whatthey do and how they do it.
Yeah, I agree, thank you.
(21:34):
And I'm glad.
I'm glad that you want peopleto know it's you, because
there's no shame in you knowanything about you and nothing
wrong, um, it's, it's just apart of who you are, not the
whole thing, but it's a part.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, I have one last questionbefore we get into your piece.
You talk about your OCDrelating to drugs and alcohol,
(22:03):
relating in terms of it beingthe deathly afraid of drugs and
alcohol.
I can't find the exact passagehere.
I mean, obviously you're goingto and alcohol.
I can't find the exact passagehere.
I mean, obviously you're goingto read it.
So I have never had a drink andI've never done any drug and I
(22:23):
have generalized anxietydisorder, depression and
obsessive compulsive tendenciesnot full blown OCD and I have
never really given much thoughtabout why I have never touched
drugs or alcohol.
I think I have.
Always, when people ask me, Ialways say well, you know, I
don't want to be in any state ofbeing out of control, I want to
(22:48):
be in control of what I say andwhat I think and how I behave.
And if there's some kind ofchemical substance altering that
, I'm afraid, I'm so afraid ofwhat will happen and what will I
say.
What horrible thing will I do.
And I wonder if those are thekind of things I don't know, if
(23:09):
this is still the same for you,um, or if you've kind of changed
your stance or or whatever.
But if you can talk about thata little bit, I would.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (23:16):
I would love to hear that yeah, so at the
time it was definitely like yousaid, like related to that fear
of loss of control.
Um, something that I don'tmention um in the essay, because
at that time it was still likea little too raw at the time was
that I was also just like veryparanoid that I would end up
(23:38):
killing someone, like I wouldhave like these intrusive
thoughts about these, just thesevery violent images that
freaked me out so badly and thatwas one of the reasons why I
didn't want to like risk.
Even the idea of potentiallylosing control was just so
(24:01):
terrifying to me and that was abig part of um why I didn't use
any alcohol or drugs.
Um, nowadays like and like I'venever been opposed to anyone
else doing it like I don't, Idon't care.
Yeah, it's just, it's strictlyinternal yeah, um, but nowadays,
actually back in 2020, I had adrink and it was like, and it
(24:29):
was fine, and the thing was likeI just didn't like the taste,
yeah, and I just haven't haven'thad any like um since then, and
it was mostly because I didn'tlike the taste and also because,
like, I'm still a littleparanoid that it'll like affect
the meds that I'm on sure but Ijust don't like the taste.
Gabe Nathan (24:51):
Yeah, I would love to hear you read your essay, and
not just because you're a voiceactor.
Are you ready to do that?
Yes.
All right.
So, without further delay, theessay is called Now what
Suicidality and Planning for anUncertain Present.
I'm sitting in my childhoodbedroom as I write this and it
is one of the Now what?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (25:11):
Suicidality and planning for an uncertain
present.
I'm sitting in my childhoodbedroom as I write this and it
is one of the most bizarrethings I've ever experienced.
The blue floral wallpaper ispeeling, a process I helped
speed up with restless fingersthat picked at the yellowing
material.
The carpet is so worn and usedthat it's completely flattened
(25:35):
and just feels like a thin layerof rough blue cloth over hard
ground.
My older sister got a newking-sized bed last year, so
I've inherited her twin mattress.
After all, as the youngersibling, I grew up using her old
hand-me-downs, and mattressesare no different.
But my old mattress, the one Iused for around 15 years, is
still propped up against thewall.
(25:55):
It's a shade of faded blue withwhite roses scattered across
the cloth and there arepermanent pee stains from when I
wet the bed as a kid.
It's also the mattress on whichI used to cry at night, unsure
whether or not I could keep fromattempting suicide the next day
, convinced I wouldn't live past13.
So you can imagine it's prettybizarre to be alive 11 years
(26:16):
later, calmly writing aboutsuicide in the very room in
which I'd planned it.
The view present me has reallyisn't anything like I'd imagined
.
My first depressive episode andthe months leading up to it are
still hazy to me, though I cancatch a glimpse of a specific
memory here and there.
For the most part, I can onlyremember the vague yet
(26:37):
all-consuming feeling of misery,of dread, of nothing.
But there is one particularmoment, when I finally reached
13, that stands out to me, onethat I would revisit over and
over again during subsequentrelapses.
Sobbing my eyes out in abathroom of a cafe, I wrapped my
arms around myself and lookedat my blotchy face in the mirror
(26:59):
.
I promised myself that I wouldhold out for 10 years.
I would be 23 one day and Iwould no longer be bullied at
school by classmates andteachers.
I would no longer come back toan unhealthy family life and
shut myself in my room to avoidthe toxicity under my roof.
I would no longer dread wakingup just to spend every lucid
moment wanting so desperately todie.
(27:22):
In 10 years I thought you willbe happy with where you are and
who you are.
That promise became my lifelinethroughout the next decade, the
light at the end of a tunnelthat I thought would have a
defined end, flash forward tothe day I received my college
degree, one day beforecommencement and less than two
(27:43):
weeks before my 23rd birthday, Iwas grateful for almost hitting
my 10-year goal, for the chanceto hold the overpriced college
degree that I never thought I'dlive to see.
I had a found family that Iloved more than anything and an
amazing internship at aprestigious theater.
Lined up to kick off my career,I now had not only recurrent
(28:04):
major depressive disorder, butalso a persistent depressive
disorder, obsessive-compulsivedisorder and complex
post-traumatic stress disorder.
I was suicidal again for whatseemed like the thousandth time
in the last 10 years, leading mytherapist to describe me as
chronically suicidal.
These issues were allwell-managed, thanks to the
(28:24):
combination of medication andpsychotherapy.
Even my suicidality wasn'texactly that big of a problem.
Sure, I was miserable, but Ihad the tools and experience to
ride it out.
Time and time again, mytherapist taught me to exhale
longer to preventhyperventilation during panic
attacks.
I regularly employed groundingtechniques when I felt myself
(28:46):
floating away in a dissociativeepisode.
Experience reminded me that,despite all my past suicidal
episodes, my track record forgetting through all of them had
been 100%.
Yet well-managed chronic mentalillnesses wasn't what I'd meant
when I said happy with where Iam and who I am.
So yeah, the view was prettydamn underwhelming.
(29:08):
It was kind of like biting intowhat you assumed was a
chocolate chip cookie only tofind out that the dark blobs
were raisins.
It's like driving thousands ofmiles to see a wonder of nature
only to realize that, well, it'sjust a bunch of rocks in it.
Recovery was underwhelming.
It was underwhelmingly banal,underwhelmingly bland,
(29:31):
underwhelmingly pedestrian.
As soon as I reached 23, Ifound myself thinking okay, I'm
here.
So now what?
I'd finally reached themilestone I'd been aiming
towards for years, and it wasnothing like I'd expected.
There was no splash, nospectacle like I'd expected.
(29:52):
There was no splash, nospectacle.
And since I was dealing withmore diagnoses than I had 10
years ago, I questioned how muchof an achievement survival
really was.
And now that I had accomplishedwhat I had set out to do to
survive for 10 more years, I waslost.
Like most millennials, I neverquite knew what to do with my
life, whatever that vague phrasemeant, especially given the
social-political tension andinstability that plague modern
(30:15):
society.
However, the feeling ofuncertainty was amplified
tenfold because this was neverpart of the original plan.
The original plan was to dieyoung, to prevent myself from
causing any more pain to others.
My 10-year promise was, frankly, just a desperate attempt to
motivate myself to live.
I didn't actually think I'dmake it this far, as if
(30:37):
navigating tax forms andapartment leases wasn't
confusing enough.
I was also disoriented becauseI wasn't sure how far ahead I
should be planning my life.
I dreaded the imagine yourselfin 10 years question at job
interviews.
It was as though I didn't havethe capacity to look past my
23rd birthday, because that wassupposed to be the end of the
tunnel.
It would lead to either endlessdaylight or a dead end.
(31:00):
Turns out it's neither really.
To top it all off, obsessivecompulsive disorder makes me
medically unable to acceptuncertainty.
Ocd was once known as thedoubting disease.
Compulsions aren't just quirks.
They're generally fueled bysome sort of obsessive anxiety
or fear.
You can't know for certain ifthe bad thing will happen or not
(31:22):
, so it feels like the best wayto prevent it is to respond with
these rituals, even if you'reaware they're illogical.
Just in case.
Even if you're aware they'reillogical, just in case, just in
case, just in case.
A major manifestation of my OCDis a fear of suicide.
Ironic, I know, and incrediblyconfounding.
When I had my worst bout of OCDin 2014, I oscillated between
(31:48):
being suicidal and not beingsuicidal, yet terrified of
snapping suddenly and ending myown life triggered by what
seemed like the smallest things.
I couldn't look at any foodthat was red and liquidy.
It reminded me of blood, eventhough I had no problem with
menstruation.
I repeatedly glanced atanything hanging from the
ceiling to make sure it wasimpossible to hang myself from
it.
I was paranoid that I'd developyet another mental illness and
(32:12):
increase my risk of suicide.
That led to a debilitating fearof alcohol and drugs.
The twisted logic behind OCDargued that developing a
substance abuse disorder on topof all my other problems meant
I'd probably end up dying bysuicide.
A million what-ifs still flashthrough my mind today, most of
them illogical but nonethelessharrowing.
(32:33):
What if I didn't lock the doorproperly?
What will happen if I don'tcheck the stove again?
Will I lose my mind and hurt myfriend?
After working specifically onmy OCD with a therapist for
around a year, I learned twophrases that have helped
minimize the distress that stemsfrom this unhealthy and
unproductive thought process.
As it turns out, the words thathelped me manage my OCD-related
(32:57):
anxiety also helped me sit andlean into the uncomfortable
uncertainty of being alive.
Those words are I don't know,and simply maybe.
Constant attempts to seekreassurance for myself and
others only exacerbated myanxiety in the long run.
So the key for me was to sit inthe uncertainty and embrace it.
What if I didn't lock the doorproperly?
(33:19):
Maybe I did, maybe I didn't.
I don't know, and that's okay.
What will happen if I don'tcheck the stove again?
Maybe nothing, maybe somethingI don't know, and that's okay.
Will I lose my mind and hurt myfriend?
Maybe I will.
Maybe something I don't know,and that's okay.
Will I lose my mind and hurt myfriend?
Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
I don't know, and that's okay.
(33:40):
I never expected to live thislong.
I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm too scared to envision myfuture, because what if I don't
make it?
Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
I don't know, and that's okay.
I will never know anything forcertain, and that is okay.
Perhaps that's the mostfrustrating part of all this
(34:03):
uncertainty.
I cannot promise my loved onesthat I won't die by suicide.
I've made my peace with thepossibility of dying this way
and I'm doing everything I cannot to be in such a despondent,
hopeless headspace, but I can'tplan for everything.
I don't know if I will be okay.
I don't know, I do not know,and that be okay.
(34:25):
I don't know, I do not know andthat is okay.
I don't need to have a plan ora grand goal to achieve by a
specific time.
Yes, the promise of happiness 10years down the line did help me
power through some incrediblydifficult periods of my life.
I survived multiple majordepressive episodes, all of them
including suicidality.
When I exhibited symptoms ofCPTSD and OCD for the first time
(34:48):
, I was afraid and lost, butreminded myself about my 10-year
promise.
In doing so, I didn't set upthe most realistic or healthy
expectations for my earlyadulthood.
My story doesn't quite matchthe personal stories shared with
me during my turbulentadolescence.
The inspirational tales aboutovercoming mental illnesses and
finding oneself.
(35:09):
Those stories of triumph helpedmotivate me, but they became
the only narrative I knew, theonly iteration of happiness I
saw.
That became the definition.
Trying to force my journey tofit that narrative was
ultimately unhealthy for me.
Trying to force my journey tofit that narrative was
ultimately unhealthy for me.
Sure, everyone I knewemphasized the importance of
routine maintenance work, butthey always seemed so optimistic
(35:31):
and happy to be alive.
They were inspirations, beaconsof hope that I aspired to be.
But that's not me.
I don't think life holds anyinherent positive meaning, which
sounds very nihilistic.
I know I'm not one to wake upin the morning and think, wow,
I'm so glad to be alive.
My life is neutral.
(35:51):
To me, a blank canvas, if youwill, because here's what I've
learned about life.
It can really suck, and thegood stuff doesn't always
outweigh the sucky parts.
The ups don't necessarilyjustify the downs.
It's kind of moot to comparethe good with the bad.
Sometimes shit hurts for nofucking reason.
(36:12):
Adapting a more neutral mindsetto my life, and my future in
particular, has helped my healthimmensely.
I'd put too much pressure onmyself to be happy without
keeping in mind that I won't getthe happy ending I'd envisioned
, because, well, I've notreached the end yet.
I'm so, so lost.
I'm an early career actor andwriter, not knowing when I'll
(36:33):
book my next gig.
I'm a queer woman of color in ahostile society, and my
relationship with my birthfamily is fractured at best.
Oh, and on top of that, I needto stay vigilant about my mental
health to minimize relapses.
My story of recovery is notpretty, it's not polished, it's
not glamorous, it's notinspirational, at least not to
(36:54):
me.
It's boring maintenance workthat is at times breezy and at
other times grueling.
There's been no grand moment oftriumph for me, no big splash
signaling my achievements, justthe incessant drip of an endless
leak that I try to catch beforethe sink overflows.
And that's okay, I'm okay.
Maybe this is how happinesstakes shape for me accepting
(37:18):
that mental illness is woveninto the fabric of my being and
that being okay with it is thebest I can do.
But then again I could be wrong.
It wouldn't be the fabric of mybeing and that being okay with
it is the best I can do, butthen again I could be wrong.
It wouldn't be the first timemy predictions have gone
sideways.
Maybe one day I'll be planningmy life another 10 years into
the future, maybe 20.
(37:41):
Maybe even 30.
Who knows?
Gabe Nathan (37:41):
I certainly don't.
Wonderful piece and a lovelyreading.
Thank you so much for doingthat.
Thank you.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (37:52):
What was it like going back to this?
Um, it was really sort ofsurprising just how much I've
changed and at the same timestayed the same.
Just how much I've changed andat the same time stayed the same
.
I mean, I'm still prettyneutral about the concept of
being alive.
I still don't think there'slike any inherent value or
(38:17):
meaning to my life.
But I think I'm now moreviscerally aware of the impact
my death could have around thepeople around me.
And that's in part because, likeI think it was just a few
months after this piece waspublished, I was out at a diner
(38:43):
with a friend and I mentionedthat I'd been suicidal and how
like, oh, it ultimately wouldn'treally matter anyway.
And she got so mad at which,like I understand, and she had
like tears in her eyes and shewas so pissed and I was like, oh
, I'm so sorry.
And then she sort of like puteverything into perspective,
because it never really occurredto me that people would be mad,
and she described it as like,yeah, I'd be mad, I'd understand
(39:06):
, but I'd be mad and eventuallyI'd be okay, but in that moment
I wouldn't be and I was like, oh, I think maybe my life doesn't
matter that much to me, butmaybe it matters to other people
and I don't want people and Idon't want to live my life for
others and that's notnecessarily something I want for
(39:31):
other people either, but Idon't know.
Gabe Nathan (39:32):
That moment just sort of like broadened my
horizons a little bit.
So that's so interestingbecause, as a suicide awareness
and prevention advocate, youknow one of the things that
people say to people when theyknow or suspect that they're
suicidal or someone you knowconfesses that they're having
suicidal ideations.
One of the knee-jerk responsesfrom people who kind of really
(39:53):
don't know a lot about suicideprevention is yeah, but think
about your family, think aboutall the other people, and it's
almost a way to guilt the otherperson into staying alive, which
we never want to do.
But it's so interesting thatthe thought of your death, the
impact that that would have onothers, for you it's a driver.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (40:16):
Yeah, and I really didn't expect that to be
a thing for me because, like yousaid, I also really I hate the
response of like think aboutyour, you know your family,
Think about your friends.
Gabe Nathan (40:28):
Because of course you are, everybody does, it's
not?
It's like you know, I have twochildren.
It's like well, yeah, but youhave children.
It's like fine, thank you, Iknow, you know, but that's not
what it's about.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (40:41):
Exactly, and I don't know it was.
I think the fact that she wasangry kind of threw me off,
because I I have never hadanyone like be pissed at me for
this.
It's always been just likeknee-jerk, panic, panic, panic
and like trying to like reassureme or whatever, which isn't
necessarily what you want.
At that time, like I think whatI really needed was like an
(41:03):
honest, like reaction, and thatwas her reaction and that's, and
there it is.
Gabe Nathan (41:10):
And so frequently, when someone does die by suicide
, one of the very, very strongreactions from those left behind
is anger and then feelingguilty and ashamed that they're
angry and so it's.
It's such a it's.
All those emotions compoundeach other, which is why you
(41:33):
know a suicide loss is a losslike none other.
I'm so glad that she was ableto express that to you at a
diner and not at your grave.
Yeah, and not at your grave.
Yeah, there's a part in yourpiece where you say perhaps
that's the most frustrating partof all this uncertainty I
(41:55):
cannot promise my loved onesthat I won't die by suicide.
It reminded me of when I wasworking at a locked inpatient
psychiatric hospital and we usedto make patients contract for
safety is what we called it andthere was a little checkbox on
our paperwork.
You did the patient CFS and youcheck yes or no.
(42:17):
And a contract for safety isthis oral promise Can you
promise me that you won't killyourself?
It's so absurd when I thinkabout it.
You know that you won't killyourself, it's so.
It's so absurd.
Um, when I think about it, youknow that we would ask people
this can you contract for safety?
Uh, and they would say yes, andof course it means nothing.
You know a promise that youwon't kill yourself.
(42:38):
You can say yes, and then youknow five minutes later, later
make an attempt in your room.
And it just struck me as sobizarre this idea of asking
people to promise that theywon't take their life, when
really we're all at risk fordoing that.
(43:01):
We all have risk factors andprotective factors related to
suicide and there's noguarantees for anyone person
(43:27):
when we, when they say they'reokay, um, that they're safe, and
because I did.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (43:29):
There was this one time when somebody
almost called campus safety onme, um, because I mentioned in
passing that like I was suicidal, but like I was fine, like I've
done this like a million times,I'll be fine, I can write it
out, and that was true, um, butat the same, this other person
didn't trust me to know myself.
Gabe Nathan (43:46):
Right.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (43:46):
So they almost called campus safety on
me.
But at the same time it's likelike there's like this really
hard balance to it, Right,Because you don't want to deny
the agency of that person who issuicidal, yes, and you want to
trust that they know whatthey're saying and they know
themselves.
But at the same time it's like,well, you can't really promise,
(44:10):
promise.
Gabe Nathan (44:11):
Yeah, it's incredibly difficult for pall
takers at 988.
It's incredibly difficult forcrisis workers.
It's incredibly difficult forinpatient providers, outpatient
providers, friends, family,everyone Because if you get this
wrong, it is literally life anddeath.
So it's a very, very hard placeto be in and you can educate
(44:33):
yourself to a point, but everysingle situation is unique and
dynamic.
And attending some cookiecutter training no disrespect to
any of the suicide preventiontrainings that are out there,
I've taken some.
I think they're great, um, Iencourage people to take them.
But it's not a bulletproof vest, um, and it's no guarantee that
(44:57):
you're suddenly going to besolemn in the wise when you're
talking to someone who'ssuicidal and you're always going
to know what to do.
Um, that's very, very difficult.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (45:13):
And I think that just like goes back to the
point of like how important itis to actually listen to the
person, and like listen to theirstory and trust them to be the
expert of themselves.
Gabe Nathan (45:22):
I have one final question.
Um, before we go, you mentionedthe kind of boring maintenance
work that you need to do to keepyour mental health symptoms in
check.
Can you tell me what some ofthem are and how you're doing
with them these days?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (45:42):
So, frankly, I haven't actually been to
psychotherapy in like almost twoyears, so that part's kind of
like out of the picture for meright now.
But I mean it's the taking ofthe medication and it's the
dealing with insurance and likemaking sure I don't run out of
(46:02):
Prozac, things like that.
You know journaling, eventhough I don't want to feeding
myself, even though I don't wantto kind of things Just like.
I mean like, if you really boilit down, it's just the boring
parts of being alive thateveryone has.
(46:22):
Or maybe people like I mean Idon't like cooking, so maybe the
cooking part is fun for somepeople.
I'm just very lazy.
But yeah, that's what it lookslike for me.
It looks like figuring out asafety plan as the holidays get
closer, because it's usually adifficult time for me.
(46:43):
And yeah, that's just just.
I don't know.
It feels so baked into just howthe way I live my life that the
routine maintenance work forthe mental illness part, for the
mental health part, it's just apart of my life and I don't
necessarily know how to separatethat.
Gabe Nathan (47:05):
Yeah, and maybe that in and of itself is a
symbol of how far you've come,that it doesn't feel like extra
work or like my mental healthstuff is over here and ADLs the
activities of daily living areover here.
It's all mixed in.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (47:28):
Yeah, that's a nice way to think of it.
I actually never thought of itthat way.
Gabe Nathan (47:32):
Well, that's my holiday gift to you today.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (47:36):
Thank you.
Gabe Nathan (47:37):
And I'm so grateful for you.
I'm delighted that we had thistime together.
Thank you for coming to us in2017.
Thank you for coming back to usin 2024.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (47:49):
I mean thank you again for having me.
I mean I was literally just Itold Laura this, but like I was
literally just thinking aboutthis piece because I had just
turned 30 this year and it'slike quite a milestone, so this
all feels not predestined butlike a nice coincidence.
Gabe Nathan (48:07):
Very fortuitous and happy 30th to you.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here andplease take good care and enjoy
the banality of your every day.
Thank you, you too, of yourevery day, thank you.
You too.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
(48:30):
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Very warm thank you to ourguest, Rebecca .
She joined us for the firsttime in 2017 with a wonderful
essay about chronic suicidalityand managing her multiple mental
health conditions, and it wasan absolute treat to have her
back on the show today.
(48:50):
You can find her at rwhsieh andthat is spelled H-S-I-E-H dot
wixcom backslash home.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(49:11):
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth.
We have a wonderful guest foryou today.
It is Rebecca Wei Hsieh.
She's an actor and a writer.
She came to us back in 2017with an essay about chronic
suicidality and other mentalhealth challenges and we are so
happy to have her here today tosee where she is and how she is.
(00:23):
Each week, we'll bring you aRecovery Diaries contributor
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they arein their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged and what new things have
emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiariesorg.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast health,empowerment and change.
(01:05):
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
miss a new podcast episode,essay or film, and you can find
this podcast pretty muchanywhere you get your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges and grow and, of course,
make sure to like, share andsubscribe.
Course, make sure to like,share and subscribe.
(01:30):
Rebecca Weishia, thank you somuch for being here.
It's a delight to have you here.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (01:34):
Thanks so much for having me.
Gabe Nathan (01:42):
You're very welcome and I have to say I did not
work with you as your editor onyour original essay that you
sent to us a few years ago.
Our editor, Laura Farrell, didand I was going over it, you
know to prepare for the episodeand you're such a talented
writer, it was such a joy toread your piece.
Thank you.
What was it like to work onwith Laura?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (02:04):
So Laura actually gave me a lot of
freedom in terms of, like, whatto cover, and for that I'm
really grateful to be able towrite something that really
centers my story, rather than anessay or like an analytical
piece, which is what my otherwork has mostly been, and so for
(02:27):
that I'm really grateful.
She also, you know, gave mesome more pointers regarding you
know how best to convey moretechnical information you know
about OCD, things like that to abroader audience.
So that was really helpful.
Gabe Nathan (02:41):
That's wonderful.
It's really nice to hear.
I'm always surprised.
I read every submission thatcomes through and some people
send us submissions with likefootnotes and endnotes and
citations.
I'm like no, no, no, no, no,it's a personal essay.
It's you're the expert here,the expert in your own personal
(03:07):
experience.
So we don't want anybody citinganyone else or obviously not
saying anything like outwardlyerroneous, but it's your
personal experience and that'swhat we want here and it's what
you gave us so beautifully.
So thank you for that.
Thank you.
In going back to your essay, youdescribed yourself towards the
end of it.
Well, the sentence starts outwith I'm so, so lost.
(03:29):
And then you describe yourselfas an early career actor and
writer, not knowing when I'llbook my next gig.
I'm a queer woman of color in ahostile society, and my
relationship with my birthfamily is fractured at best.
That is a snapshot of a humanbeing in a very specific point
in time.
(03:49):
How would you describe yourselfnow, and does that description
still resonate with you?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (03:57):
Yes to the resonating part.
But at the same time I feellike I've become more than that,
like there are otherdescriptors that describe me
better now like I'm still lost,you know, I'm still.
You know, not knowing what I do, not really knowing what when
(04:19):
the next gig is, um.
But also I'm a lot morecomfortable in the not knowing
and I know that I sort of likecovered that in that first essay
, saying that like, oh, I'm okaywith not knowing.
But like in retrospect, I don'tthink I was really 100% there
and I think in a few years maybeI'll look back on where I am
(04:40):
right now and think, yeah, itwasn't entirely okay, but right
now I feel like reallycomfortable in it.
Gabe Nathan (04:47):
How did you get there?
So let's look at do youremember when you sent this
essay in and when we publishedit?
Do you remember what year itwas?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (04:55):
It was.
I think it was 2018.
Gabe Nathan (04:58):
That resonates with me.
I was going to say 2017, 2018.
Okay, so we're in the scope ofa young life.
You're pretty far along now.
How did you get to that greatercomfort level with still being
lost?
What happened in that realmbetween the time you published
(05:20):
your essay to now, to help youget there?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (05:28):
the time you published your essay to now to
help you get there.
I think the pandemic wasdefinitely, you know, a huge
part of that, in that it reallygave me a greater sense of
perspective of what life can be,where it's just like I wasn't
working all that much because of, you know, the industry
shutting down and things likethat, and so I was able to
explore my interests outside ofacting, outside of writing, and
(05:55):
being able to sort of definemyself outside of work I think
really helped me mature as ahuman and just get to know
myself better, and in that,knowing that there's always more
to explore about myself at anygiven time, I think that really
helped with, you know, beingcomfortable with the unknown,
because there are things aboutmyself that I don't know.
(06:16):
So, of course, there are thingsabout, you know, the world or
the future that I don't know,and that's perfectly fine.
Gabe Nathan (06:24):
And what better time to become comfortable with
not knowing what's going tohappen when a time when the
entire world was flipped on itshead, when suddenly no one knew
what was going on or what wasgoing to happen, or feeling
completely out of control.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (06:38):
Yeah, and I actually this might be kind of
awful to say, but it helped toknow that other people are also
like kind of like flapping aboutnot really knowing what to do.
Gabe Nathan (06:53):
Why does that feel awful to say?
I'm curious.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (06:55):
I don't know, because it feels like I'm sort
of like I don't want to likemake light of how horrible the
pandemic was, because a lot, ofcourse, a lot of like lives were
lost, a lot of long termdisability with long covid and
things like that, and I hatethat other people were
struggling and feeling lost, um,and I don't want them to feel
that way, but at the same time,there was something really
(07:17):
comforting about that yeah, andI think, look to be honest, I
think about those kind of thingswhen I think about the work
that we do here at RecoveryDiaries.
Gabe Nathan (07:29):
So how do we help people?
We help people by presentingstories of people struggling so
that other people know thatthey're not alone in their
struggling.
And so the same argument couldbe made here, right alone.
And they're struggling, and sothe same argument could be made
here, right, we have thiscompendium of personal essays
and films that are about hopeand resiliency and recovery.
(07:52):
Yes, but they're also aboutstruggle and despair.
So someone could say well, youknow, I feel so much better
knowing that there's people inRwanda and India and Australia
and Scotland struggling withmental health challenges because
of recovery diaries.
It helps me know I'm not alone.
We're not saying we're gladthat they're going through these
(08:13):
things, we're just they'regoing through them anyway, but
(08:36):
at least that can then helpsomebody else.
Yeah, definitely, but that issomething that your therapist
identified you as.
Is that something?
Well, I guess?
My first question is did youresonate with that description
at that time?
And how did it feel to have amental health provider say you
(08:57):
know, this is who I think youare.
I think you're just you know,like I have chronic asthma.
I'm always going to have thisBasically telling you this is
your lot in life.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (09:08):
There was definitely a part of me that was
like sad about it, but at thesame time I definitely felt
almost like a sense of reliefthat even though it's not like a
medical term or medicaldiagnosis or anything like that
that somebody put it to words.
(09:28):
Um, especially because when Iwas growing up, whenever I told
anyone that I was struggling,that I was suicidal, that was
always immediately brushed offum, and so it was almost like
having somebody not necessarilyembrace, but like embrace and
(09:51):
like see what it was like havingsomebody see a core part of my
experience growing up andfinally admitting that it exists
, that it happened, if thatmakes any sense.
Gabe Nathan (10:11):
Well, sure, In a way you're looking to be heard
and validated and you weren'tgetting that.
I'm assuming you were tellingfamily members that you were
suicidal.
Yes.
Yeah, and what do we need whenwe're crying out?
We need someone to hear us andvalidate us and say that I see
(10:31):
you and I hear you and I'mtaking what you're telling me at
face value and not dismissingit, and you just weren't getting
that.
Yeah, definitely.
At what age were you tellingyour family this?
I mean, I'm asking kind of forpersonal reasons too.
Yeah, definitely compulsivetendencies, and I want to touch
(10:53):
on another thing related to thatlater.
But I also had an experiencecoming to my mother as a little
boy and telling her that Ineeded help Not telling her that
I was suicidal, but that Ineeded help and I needed to talk
(11:16):
to someone.
And the response that I got wasoh Gabriel, you're fine,
there's nothing wrong with you.
And it just felt like such asmackdown and, as a result, I
didn't see a therapist untilcollege, when I didn't have to
ask permission.
And I'm just wondering if youhad a similar experience.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (11:40):
Yes, so I was 12.
I remember it very vividly themoment my mother was watching TV
, the bedroom light was off, soit was just the glow, like the
bluish glow of that TV, and Ihad already been like really
visibly struggling for like avery long while.
(12:06):
While I could tell that, youknow, my mother was at her wit's
end.
My entire family didn't quiteknow what to do with me or the
fact that I was like havingthese like meltdowns all the
time.
But I remember walking intothat room taking a deep breath
and saying, hey, ma, I want todie, and her just like
(12:29):
immediately getting so I don'twant to say like aggressive, but
like quite confrontationalabout it, because she didn't
really know what to do with thatinformation.
And so, frankly, her responsewas you know what, go ahead, wow
.
And the thing is like, at thetime I knew that that was not a
(12:55):
good response, but I always kindof like brushed it off jokingly
until I got to college when Isort of like was part of this
mental health advocacy group andI mentioned it and I was like
haha, that's like that's messedup, isn't it?
(13:15):
And then my friends were likesitting around a table and
looking at me with these likehuge, like eyes wide as saucers.
Gabe Nathan (13:24):
It's the record scratch moment in the film where
it stops.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (13:28):
And they were like Rebecca, this person gave
you life and she told you to goahead.
And I was like oh, that reallyis messed up, isn't it?
Gabe Nathan (13:40):
Her response to you is stunning.
But it's also stunning to mehow certain things that should
be painfully obvious are onlytruly revealed when they're
reflected back to us from others.
I mean, I can remember tellingstories about my father in
therapy that were family jokesand my therapist looking at me
(14:04):
like oh my God, and I'm laughingin the therapist's office until
I look up and see his face I'mlike, oh, this is only funny to
me, and it's only funny to mebecause I've kind of programmed
myself to regard it as funny orbecause that's how we as a
(14:24):
family chose to deal with it.
And it's only when an outsideris brought in that they're like
no, no, no, no, no.
This is actually really fuckedup what you're telling me.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (14:34):
Yeah, I definitely, I definitely again,
like I always had like thisinkling that like, yeah, it is
messed up, but it is what it is.
Ha ha, move it like, move on,brush it off.
And I don't think I allowedmyself, like you said, I kind of
like programmed myself to reactthat way because I didn't
really have that room or thecapacity to really sort of break
(14:57):
down what that comment, whatthat sentiment meant in that
time, especially when I was soyoung and still dependent on you
know, the adults around me inmy life.
Gabe Nathan (15:09):
Do you have a relationship with your mother?
If you don't mind my asking.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (15:13):
Yes, I recently, about like one or two
years ago started speaking toher again.
Gabe Nathan (15:18):
May I ask how that's going?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (15:21):
It's going well.
I think I definitely still needto like brace myself a little
bit emotionally before, you know, speaking with her, but it's
getting easier every time.
I think what really helped wasthat I finally got like an
actual apology from her and shehad, you know, given me
(15:45):
non-pologies before of course umyou know, denying that, oh,
like it never happened.
Gabe Nathan (15:51):
But if it did, I'm sorry I'm sorry you feel that
this happened.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (15:54):
Yeah, yeah but a few years ago was when she
finally sort of I don't know ifshe actually remembers any of
it, but it was the first timeshe actually fully acknowledged
the hurt that she caused.
Um, and what really struck mewhen she apologized was that she
(16:17):
said she wanted to reconcilebecause I was still so young and
it wasn't fair for me to behung up on this, to be stuck
here with this trauma.
And that was such a markeddifference from her other like
quote-unquote apologies so far,where it was obvious that, like
she was apologizing for her ownsake, to assuage her own guilt
yes, that's a pretty significantleap yeah do you think's I mean
(16:46):
, and you're kind of early on inthat reconciliation, even still
a year or two in do you thinkthat it's been positive for your
mental health?
Yes, I think for the most part.
I of course want to have thoseboundaries in place.
I want to be able to keepsupporting myself by myself, you
(17:08):
know, financially, emotionallyand things like that, but
knowing that there is someonethere if things just absolutely
fall apart, I think that hasreally helped.
Gabe Nathan (17:21):
That's great.
Helped, that's great.
I want to kind of go back intime a little bit to when you
published with us, because I dowant to get into your reading of
your essay, which I'm very,very excited for.
What did it feel like to see itout there in the world, and did
(17:48):
you have reservations aboutthat?
Because you know, I realizedthat we're kind of a little bit
different publication than someothers.
You know, we don't allow forpeople to publish anonymously or
with a pseudonym.
We use real photos.
We've got your bio there.
Did it feel a little bit nakedor uncomfortable or, you know,
did you?
Did you have anxieties aroundit?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (18:08):
Yes and no Um cause, like in college and even
back in high school, like I wasalready starting to talk really
openly about all my like mentalillness, like my mental
struggles and things like that.
Um, sometimes I've writtenforms, sometimes just like with
my classmates and likeexplaining these sort of like
(18:33):
issues with them.
But looking back, I don't thinkat that time whether it's
during high school or college Iwas really quite ready to do any
of that.
I think at that time I had thissense of like I had to make
this trauma worthwhile and inorder for it to mean something,
(18:56):
it means I have to use it tohelp other people.
But at the same time, I wasn'tat that stage where I was ready
to do that Not really.
It came more out of a sense oflike obligation, and so it was
very much a situation in highschool and college where I was
basically like taking a scab andlike scratching it over and
(19:18):
over and over again to showother other people how it bled.
But by the time it got to like2018, I definitely felt that
that scab was more or less morelike a scar, like a fresh scar,
(19:39):
but at least the skin was likecovered and healed, and so it
was.
It didn't really come out of asense of like obligation, so
much as like wanting to expressmyself like properly, on my own
terms and for the anonymity Idon't really know.
(20:03):
I never really thought of thatas an issue.
I think If anything I wantedpeople to know, it was me.
Yeah, I think if anything Iwanted people to know, it was me
, because that is my story andmaybe this is, I don't know,
vain or self-indulgent oranything like that, maybe.
Gabe Nathan (20:28):
But I want people to know that's me and I want
people to see me, for you knowwho I am, what I am, yeah yeah,
I mean, obviously I'm biased asthe Executive Director of a site
that asks people for theirpersonal recovery stories, but I
think it's totally, um totallyanathema to being
(20:51):
self-interested or anything likethat.
I think it's one of the mostmagnanimous things that you can
do, which is to give a part ofyourself to other human beings,
and I think that's what peopleare doing through these essays.
You're really giving and givinga lot.
(21:11):
I think giving a lot to otherpeople and really asking for
nothing in return.
And I at the risk of hyperboleI really do think it's very
brave, and not just of you.
I think every single one of ourcontributors is very brave,
putting out into the world whatthey do and how they do it.
Yeah, I agree, thank you.
(21:34):
And I'm glad.
I'm glad that you want peopleto know it's you, because
there's no shame in you knowanything about you and nothing
wrong, um, it's, it's just apart of who you are, not the
whole thing, but it's a part.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, I have one last questionbefore we get into your piece.
You talk about your OCDrelating to drugs and alcohol,
(22:03):
relating in terms of it beingthe deathly afraid of drugs and
alcohol.
I can't find the exact passagehere.
I mean, obviously you're goingto and alcohol.
I can't find the exact passagehere.
I mean, obviously you're goingto read it.
So I have never had a drink andI've never done any drug and I
(22:23):
have generalized anxietydisorder, depression and
obsessive compulsive tendenciesnot full blown OCD and I have
never really given much thoughtabout why I have never touched
drugs or alcohol.
I think I have.
Always, when people ask me, Ialways say well, you know, I
don't want to be in any state ofbeing out of control, I want to
(22:48):
be in control of what I say andwhat I think and how I behave.
And if there's some kind ofchemical substance altering that
, I'm afraid, I'm so afraid ofwhat will happen and what will I
say.
What horrible thing will I do.
And I wonder if those are thekind of things I don't know, if
(23:09):
this is still the same for you,um, or if you've kind of changed
your stance or or whatever.
But if you can talk about thata little bit, I would.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (23:16):
I would love to hear that yeah, so at the
time it was definitely like yousaid, like related to that fear
of loss of control.
Um, something that I don'tmention um in the essay, because
at that time it was still likea little too raw at the time was
that I was also just like veryparanoid that I would end up
(23:38):
killing someone, like I wouldhave like these intrusive
thoughts about these, just thesevery violent images that
freaked me out so badly and thatwas one of the reasons why I
didn't want to like risk.
Even the idea of potentiallylosing control was just so
(24:01):
terrifying to me and that was abig part of um why I didn't use
any alcohol or drugs.
Um, nowadays like and like I'venever been opposed to anyone
else doing it like I don't, Idon't care.
Yeah, it's just, it's strictlyinternal yeah, um, but nowadays,
actually back in 2020, I had adrink and it was like, and it
(24:29):
was fine, and the thing was likeI just didn't like the taste,
yeah, and I just haven't haven'thad any like um since then, and
it was mostly because I didn'tlike the taste and also because,
like, I'm still a littleparanoid that it'll like affect
the meds that I'm on sure but Ijust don't like the taste.
Gabe Nathan (24:51):
Yeah, I would love to hear you read your essay, and
not just because you're a voiceactor.
Are you ready to do that?
Yes.
All right.
So, without further delay, theessay is called Now what
Suicidality and Planning for anUncertain Present.
I'm sitting in my childhoodbedroom as I write this and it
is one of the Now what?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (25:11):
Suicidality and planning for an uncertain
present.
I'm sitting in my childhoodbedroom as I write this and it
is one of the most bizarrethings I've ever experienced.
The blue floral wallpaper ispeeling, a process I helped
speed up with restless fingersthat picked at the yellowing
material.
The carpet is so worn and usedthat it's completely flattened
(25:35):
and just feels like a thin layerof rough blue cloth over hard
ground.
My older sister got a newking-sized bed last year, so
I've inherited her twin mattress.
After all, as the youngersibling, I grew up using her old
hand-me-downs, and mattressesare no different.
But my old mattress, the one Iused for around 15 years, is
still propped up against thewall.
(25:55):
It's a shade of faded blue withwhite roses scattered across
the cloth and there arepermanent pee stains from when I
wet the bed as a kid.
It's also the mattress on whichI used to cry at night, unsure
whether or not I could keep fromattempting suicide the next day
, convinced I wouldn't live past13.
So you can imagine it's prettybizarre to be alive 11 years
(26:16):
later, calmly writing aboutsuicide in the very room in
which I'd planned it.
The view present me has reallyisn't anything like I'd imagined
.
My first depressive episode andthe months leading up to it are
still hazy to me, though I cancatch a glimpse of a specific
memory here and there.
For the most part, I can onlyremember the vague yet
(26:37):
all-consuming feeling of misery,of dread, of nothing.
But there is one particularmoment, when I finally reached
13, that stands out to me, onethat I would revisit over and
over again during subsequentrelapses.
Sobbing my eyes out in abathroom of a cafe, I wrapped my
arms around myself and lookedat my blotchy face in the mirror
(26:59):
.
I promised myself that I wouldhold out for 10 years.
I would be 23 one day and Iwould no longer be bullied at
school by classmates andteachers.
I would no longer come back toan unhealthy family life and
shut myself in my room to avoidthe toxicity under my roof.
I would no longer dread wakingup just to spend every lucid
moment wanting so desperately todie.
(27:22):
In 10 years I thought you willbe happy with where you are and
who you are.
That promise became my lifelinethroughout the next decade, the
light at the end of a tunnelthat I thought would have a
defined end, flash forward tothe day I received my college
degree, one day beforecommencement and less than two
(27:43):
weeks before my 23rd birthday, Iwas grateful for almost hitting
my 10-year goal, for the chanceto hold the overpriced college
degree that I never thought I'dlive to see.
I had a found family that Iloved more than anything and an
amazing internship at aprestigious theater.
Lined up to kick off my career,I now had not only recurrent
(28:04):
major depressive disorder, butalso a persistent depressive
disorder, obsessive-compulsivedisorder and complex
post-traumatic stress disorder.
I was suicidal again for whatseemed like the thousandth time
in the last 10 years, leading mytherapist to describe me as
chronically suicidal.
These issues were allwell-managed, thanks to the
(28:24):
combination of medication andpsychotherapy.
Even my suicidality wasn'texactly that big of a problem.
Sure, I was miserable, but Ihad the tools and experience to
ride it out.
Time and time again, mytherapist taught me to exhale
longer to preventhyperventilation during panic
attacks.
I regularly employed groundingtechniques when I felt myself
(28:46):
floating away in a dissociativeepisode.
Experience reminded me that,despite all my past suicidal
episodes, my track record forgetting through all of them had
been 100%.
Yet well-managed chronic mentalillnesses wasn't what I'd meant
when I said happy with where Iam and who I am.
So yeah, the view was prettydamn underwhelming.
(29:08):
It was kind of like biting intowhat you assumed was a
chocolate chip cookie only tofind out that the dark blobs
were raisins.
It's like driving thousands ofmiles to see a wonder of nature
only to realize that, well, it'sjust a bunch of rocks in it.
Recovery was underwhelming.
It was underwhelmingly banal,underwhelmingly bland,
(29:31):
underwhelmingly pedestrian.
As soon as I reached 23, Ifound myself thinking okay, I'm
here.
So now what?
I'd finally reached themilestone I'd been aiming
towards for years, and it wasnothing like I'd expected.
There was no splash, nospectacle like I'd expected.
(29:52):
There was no splash, nospectacle.
And since I was dealing withmore diagnoses than I had 10
years ago, I questioned how muchof an achievement survival
really was.
And now that I had accomplishedwhat I had set out to do to
survive for 10 more years, I waslost.
Like most millennials, I neverquite knew what to do with my
life, whatever that vague phrasemeant, especially given the
social-political tension andinstability that plague modern
(30:15):
society.
However, the feeling ofuncertainty was amplified
tenfold because this was neverpart of the original plan.
The original plan was to dieyoung, to prevent myself from
causing any more pain to others.
My 10-year promise was, frankly, just a desperate attempt to
motivate myself to live.
I didn't actually think I'dmake it this far, as if
(30:37):
navigating tax forms andapartment leases wasn't
confusing enough.
I was also disoriented becauseI wasn't sure how far ahead I
should be planning my life.
I dreaded the imagine yourselfin 10 years question at job
interviews.
It was as though I didn't havethe capacity to look past my
23rd birthday, because that wassupposed to be the end of the
tunnel.
It would lead to either endlessdaylight or a dead end.
(31:00):
Turns out it's neither really.
To top it all off, obsessivecompulsive disorder makes me
medically unable to acceptuncertainty.
Ocd was once known as thedoubting disease.
Compulsions aren't just quirks.
They're generally fueled bysome sort of obsessive anxiety
or fear.
You can't know for certain ifthe bad thing will happen or not
(31:22):
, so it feels like the best wayto prevent it is to respond with
these rituals, even if you'reaware they're illogical.
Just in case.
Even if you're aware they'reillogical, just in case, just in
case, just in case.
A major manifestation of my OCDis a fear of suicide.
Ironic, I know, and incrediblyconfounding.
When I had my worst bout of OCDin 2014, I oscillated between
(31:48):
being suicidal and not beingsuicidal, yet terrified of
snapping suddenly and ending myown life triggered by what
seemed like the smallest things.
I couldn't look at any foodthat was red and liquidy.
It reminded me of blood, eventhough I had no problem with
menstruation.
I repeatedly glanced atanything hanging from the
ceiling to make sure it wasimpossible to hang myself from
it.
I was paranoid that I'd developyet another mental illness and
(32:12):
increase my risk of suicide.
That led to a debilitating fearof alcohol and drugs.
The twisted logic behind OCDargued that developing a
substance abuse disorder on topof all my other problems meant
I'd probably end up dying bysuicide.
A million what-ifs still flashthrough my mind today, most of
them illogical but nonethelessharrowing.
(32:33):
What if I didn't lock the doorproperly?
What will happen if I don'tcheck the stove again?
Will I lose my mind and hurt myfriend?
After working specifically onmy OCD with a therapist for
around a year, I learned twophrases that have helped
minimize the distress that stemsfrom this unhealthy and
unproductive thought process.
As it turns out, the words thathelped me manage my OCD-related
(32:57):
anxiety also helped me sit andlean into the uncomfortable
uncertainty of being alive.
Those words are I don't know,and simply maybe.
Constant attempts to seekreassurance for myself and
others only exacerbated myanxiety in the long run.
So the key for me was to sit inthe uncertainty and embrace it.
What if I didn't lock the doorproperly?
(33:19):
Maybe I did, maybe I didn't.
I don't know, and that's okay.
What will happen if I don'tcheck the stove again?
Maybe nothing, maybe somethingI don't know, and that's okay.
Will I lose my mind and hurt myfriend?
Maybe I will.
Maybe something I don't know,and that's okay.
Will I lose my mind and hurt myfriend?
Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
I don't know, and that's okay.
(33:40):
I never expected to live thislong.
I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm too scared to envision myfuture, because what if I don't
make it?
Maybe I will, maybe I won't.
I don't know, and that's okay.
I will never know anything forcertain, and that is okay.
Perhaps that's the mostfrustrating part of all this
(34:03):
uncertainty.
I cannot promise my loved onesthat I won't die by suicide.
I've made my peace with thepossibility of dying this way
and I'm doing everything I cannot to be in such a despondent,
hopeless headspace, but I can'tplan for everything.
I don't know if I will be okay.
I don't know, I do not know,and that be okay.
(34:25):
I don't know, I do not know andthat is okay.
I don't need to have a plan ora grand goal to achieve by a
specific time.
Yes, the promise of happiness 10years down the line did help me
power through some incrediblydifficult periods of my life.
I survived multiple majordepressive episodes, all of them
including suicidality.
When I exhibited symptoms ofCPTSD and OCD for the first time
(34:48):
, I was afraid and lost, butreminded myself about my 10-year
promise.
In doing so, I didn't set upthe most realistic or healthy
expectations for my earlyadulthood.
My story doesn't quite matchthe personal stories shared with
me during my turbulentadolescence.
The inspirational tales aboutovercoming mental illnesses and
finding oneself.
(35:09):
Those stories of triumph helpedmotivate me, but they became
the only narrative I knew, theonly iteration of happiness I
saw.
That became the definition.
Trying to force my journey tofit that narrative was
ultimately unhealthy for me.
Trying to force my journey tofit that narrative was
ultimately unhealthy for me.
Sure, everyone I knewemphasized the importance of
routine maintenance work, butthey always seemed so optimistic
(35:31):
and happy to be alive.
They were inspirations, beaconsof hope that I aspired to be.
But that's not me.
I don't think life holds anyinherent positive meaning, which
sounds very nihilistic.
I know I'm not one to wake upin the morning and think, wow,
I'm so glad to be alive.
My life is neutral.
(35:51):
To me, a blank canvas, if youwill, because here's what I've
learned about life.
It can really suck, and thegood stuff doesn't always
outweigh the sucky parts.
The ups don't necessarilyjustify the downs.
It's kind of moot to comparethe good with the bad.
Sometimes shit hurts for nofucking reason.
(36:12):
Adapting a more neutral mindsetto my life, and my future in
particular, has helped my healthimmensely.
I'd put too much pressure onmyself to be happy without
keeping in mind that I won't getthe happy ending I'd envisioned
, because, well, I've notreached the end yet.
I'm so, so lost.
I'm an early career actor andwriter, not knowing when I'll
(36:33):
book my next gig.
I'm a queer woman of color in ahostile society, and my
relationship with my birthfamily is fractured at best.
Oh, and on top of that, I needto stay vigilant about my mental
health to minimize relapses.
My story of recovery is notpretty, it's not polished, it's
not glamorous, it's notinspirational, at least not to
(36:54):
me.
It's boring maintenance workthat is at times breezy and at
other times grueling.
There's been no grand moment oftriumph for me, no big splash
signaling my achievements, justthe incessant drip of an endless
leak that I try to catch beforethe sink overflows.
And that's okay, I'm okay.
Maybe this is how happinesstakes shape for me accepting
(37:18):
that mental illness is woveninto the fabric of my being and
that being okay with it is thebest I can do.
But then again I could be wrong.
It wouldn't be the fabric of mybeing and that being okay with
it is the best I can do, butthen again I could be wrong.
It wouldn't be the first timemy predictions have gone
sideways.
Maybe one day I'll be planningmy life another 10 years into
the future, maybe 20.
(37:41):
Maybe even 30.
Who knows?
Gabe Nathan (37:41):
I certainly don't.
Wonderful piece and a lovelyreading.
Thank you so much for doingthat.
Thank you.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (37:52):
What was it like going back to this?
Um, it was really sort ofsurprising just how much I've
changed and at the same timestayed the same.
Just how much I've changed andat the same time stayed the same
.
I mean, I'm still prettyneutral about the concept of
being alive.
I still don't think there'slike any inherent value or
(38:17):
meaning to my life.
But I think I'm now moreviscerally aware of the impact
my death could have around thepeople around me.
And that's in part because, likeI think it was just a few
months after this piece waspublished, I was out at a diner
(38:43):
with a friend and I mentionedthat I'd been suicidal and how
like, oh, it ultimately wouldn'treally matter anyway.
And she got so mad at which,like I understand, and she had
like tears in her eyes and shewas so pissed and I was like, oh
, I'm so sorry.
And then she sort of like puteverything into perspective,
because it never really occurredto me that people would be mad,
and she described it as like,yeah, I'd be mad, I'd understand
(39:06):
, but I'd be mad and eventuallyI'd be okay, but in that moment
I wouldn't be and I was like, oh, I think maybe my life doesn't
matter that much to me, butmaybe it matters to other people
and I don't want people and Idon't want to live my life for
others and that's notnecessarily something I want for
(39:31):
other people either, but Idon't know.
Gabe Nathan (39:32):
That moment just sort of like broadened my
horizons a little bit.
So that's so interestingbecause, as a suicide awareness
and prevention advocate, youknow one of the things that
people say to people when theyknow or suspect that they're
suicidal or someone you knowconfesses that they're having
suicidal ideations.
One of the knee-jerk responsesfrom people who kind of really
(39:53):
don't know a lot about suicideprevention is yeah, but think
about your family, think aboutall the other people, and it's
almost a way to guilt the otherperson into staying alive, which
we never want to do.
But it's so interesting thatthe thought of your death, the
impact that that would have onothers, for you it's a driver.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (40:16):
Yeah, and I really didn't expect that to be
a thing for me because, like yousaid, I also really I hate the
response of like think aboutyour, you know your family,
Think about your friends.
Gabe Nathan (40:28):
Because of course you are, everybody does, it's
not?
It's like you know, I have twochildren.
It's like well, yeah, but youhave children.
It's like fine, thank you, Iknow, you know, but that's not
what it's about.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (40:41):
Exactly, and I don't know it was.
I think the fact that she wasangry kind of threw me off,
because I I have never hadanyone like be pissed at me for
this.
It's always been just likeknee-jerk, panic, panic, panic
and like trying to like reassureme or whatever, which isn't
necessarily what you want.
At that time, like I think whatI really needed was like an
(41:03):
honest, like reaction, and thatwas her reaction and that's, and
there it is.
Gabe Nathan (41:10):
And so frequently, when someone does die by suicide
, one of the very, very strongreactions from those left behind
is anger and then feelingguilty and ashamed that they're
angry and so it's.
It's such a it's.
All those emotions compoundeach other, which is why you
(41:33):
know a suicide loss is a losslike none other.
I'm so glad that she was ableto express that to you at a
diner and not at your grave.
Yeah, and not at your grave.
Yeah, there's a part in yourpiece where you say perhaps
that's the most frustrating partof all this uncertainty I
(41:55):
cannot promise my loved onesthat I won't die by suicide.
It reminded me of when I wasworking at a locked inpatient
psychiatric hospital and we usedto make patients contract for
safety is what we called it andthere was a little checkbox on
our paperwork.
You did the patient CFS and youcheck yes or no.
(42:17):
And a contract for safety isthis oral promise Can you
promise me that you won't killyourself?
It's so absurd when I thinkabout it.
You know that you won't killyourself, it's so.
It's so absurd.
Um, when I think about it, youknow that we would ask people
this can you contract for safety?
Uh, and they would say yes, andof course it means nothing.
You know a promise that youwon't kill yourself.
(42:38):
You can say yes, and then youknow five minutes later, later
make an attempt in your room.
And it just struck me as sobizarre this idea of asking
people to promise that theywon't take their life, when
really we're all at risk fordoing that.
(43:01):
We all have risk factors andprotective factors related to
suicide and there's noguarantees for anyone person
(43:27):
when we, when they say they'reokay, um, that they're safe, and
because I did.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (43:29):
There was this one time when somebody
almost called campus safety onme, um, because I mentioned in
passing that like I was suicidal, but like I was fine, like I've
done this like a million times,I'll be fine, I can write it
out, and that was true, um, butat the same, this other person
didn't trust me to know myself.
Gabe Nathan (43:46):
Right.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (43:46):
So they almost called campus safety on
me.
But at the same time it's likelike there's like this really
hard balance to it, Right,Because you don't want to deny
the agency of that person who issuicidal, yes, and you want to
trust that they know whatthey're saying and they know
themselves.
But at the same time it's like,well, you can't really promise,
(44:10):
promise.
Gabe Nathan (44:11):
Yeah, it's incredibly difficult for pall
takers at 988.
It's incredibly difficult forcrisis workers.
It's incredibly difficult forinpatient providers, outpatient
providers, friends, family,everyone Because if you get this
wrong, it is literally life anddeath.
So it's a very, very hard placeto be in and you can educate
(44:33):
yourself to a point, but everysingle situation is unique and
dynamic.
And attending some cookiecutter training no disrespect to
any of the suicide preventiontrainings that are out there,
I've taken some.
I think they're great, um, Iencourage people to take them.
But it's not a bulletproof vest, um, and it's no guarantee that
(44:57):
you're suddenly going to besolemn in the wise when you're
talking to someone who'ssuicidal and you're always going
to know what to do.
Um, that's very, very difficult.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (45:13):
And I think that just like goes back to the
point of like how important itis to actually listen to the
person, and like listen to theirstory and trust them to be the
expert of themselves.
Gabe Nathan (45:22):
I have one final question.
Um, before we go, you mentionedthe kind of boring maintenance
work that you need to do to keepyour mental health symptoms in
check.
Can you tell me what some ofthem are and how you're doing
with them these days?
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (45:42):
So, frankly, I haven't actually been to
psychotherapy in like almost twoyears, so that part's kind of
like out of the picture for meright now.
But I mean it's the taking ofthe medication and it's the
dealing with insurance and likemaking sure I don't run out of
(46:02):
Prozac, things like that.
You know journaling, eventhough I don't want to feeding
myself, even though I don't wantto kind of things Just like.
I mean like, if you really boilit down, it's just the boring
parts of being alive thateveryone has.
(46:22):
Or maybe people like I mean Idon't like cooking, so maybe the
cooking part is fun for somepeople.
I'm just very lazy.
But yeah, that's what it lookslike for me.
It looks like figuring out asafety plan as the holidays get
closer, because it's usually adifficult time for me.
(46:43):
And yeah, that's just just.
I don't know.
It feels so baked into just howthe way I live my life that the
routine maintenance work forthe mental illness part, for the
mental health part, it's just apart of my life and I don't
necessarily know how to separatethat.
Gabe Nathan (47:05):
Yeah, and maybe that in and of itself is a
symbol of how far you've come,that it doesn't feel like extra
work or like my mental healthstuff is over here and ADLs the
activities of daily living areover here.
It's all mixed in.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (47:28):
Yeah, that's a nice way to think of it.
I actually never thought of itthat way.
Gabe Nathan (47:32):
Well, that's my holiday gift to you today.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (47:36):
Thank you.
Gabe Nathan (47:37):
And I'm so grateful for you.
I'm delighted that we had thistime together.
Thank you for coming to us in2017.
Thank you for coming back to usin 2024.
Rebecca Wei Hsieh (47:49):
I mean thank you again for having me.
I mean I was literally just Itold Laura this, but like I was
literally just thinking aboutthis piece because I had just
turned 30 this year and it'slike quite a milestone, so this
all feels not predestined butlike a nice coincidence.
Gabe Nathan (48:07):
Very fortuitous and happy 30th to you.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here andplease take good care and enjoy
the banality of your every day.
Thank you, you too, of yourevery day, thank you.
You too.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
(48:30):
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Very warm thank you to ourguest, Rebecca .
She joined us for the firsttime in 2017 with a wonderful
essay about chronic suicidalityand managing her multiple mental
health conditions, and it wasan absolute treat to have her
back on the show today.
(48:50):
You can find her at rwhsieh andthat is spelled H-S-I-E-H dot
wixcom backslash home.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiariesorg.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(49:11):
videos and content about mentalhealth, empowerment and change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here without you.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good care.
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