December 22, 2025 • 52 mins
Javier Ortega Ariza is a compassionate, sensitive writer who has published two essays with Recovery Diaries, including his moving and powerful essay “Surviving Suicidality To Live In A Wonderful World” which explores a "last walk" he took after deciding to die by suicide, and his beautiful decision to stay. Javier reads this essay aloud on this compelling episode of our podcast, "Recovery Diaries in Depth", which explores men’s mental health, suicidality, hope, resilience, and the bravery of mental health storytelling. Javier and Gabe are two men who have personal experience with contemplating suicide and this intimate and vulnerable conversation is well worth hearing, and sharing.
Javier sees writing as "exposure therapy"; going to uncomfortable places in his writing to share hope and connection with others. There is a gentleness about him that is undoubtedly the result of how he has decided to view the world; as wonderful and hopeful. He is challenging self-critical voices in his head and working through doubt and fear every day, and helping others do the same.
In his discussion with Gabe, Javier reflects on what has helped him get and stay healthy; therapy, boundaries, ho‘oponopono, and the not-quite-cinematic text message that arrived mid-walk to remind him of the work and the love that keep him here. Returning to San Miguel years later, he carries the same streets but different eyes, proof that healing isn’t linear and growth can coexist with grief.
Javier is a living, breathing reminder that, if you stay, your life can change in ways you never dreamed possible. This important conversation should be shared with anyone you know who may be struggling, and anyone you know who appears, like Javier did when he was at his darkest, to have it all, and may very well be struggling in silence. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more people find stories that keep them here.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabe Nathan (00:00):
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries in Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so happy to have on theshow today Javier
Ortega-Araiza.
He's a writer, storyteller,digital nomad, and serial
entrepreneur, as well as acompetitive tennis and
(00:21):
pickleball player currentlyliving in Mexico.
Each week, we'll bring you arecovery diaries contributor,
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged, and what new things
have emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiaries.org.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment, and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
(01:06):
miss a new podcast episode,essay, or film.
And you can find this podcastpretty much anywhere you get
your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges, and grow.
And of course, make sure tolike, share, and subscribe.
Javier, it is such a joy um tohave you here on the show.
(01:33):
Um thanks so much for beinghere.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (01:36):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here aswell and uh looking forward to
our conversation.
Gabe Nathan (01:43):
And a conversation is what we will have, and a
conversation about mentalhealth, a conversation about
suicide prevention, and uh uhabout mental health storytelling
in general um from theperspective of a man.
And I I want to start with thatbecause uh our mental health
(02:05):
publication, it's been aroundfor a long time.
It's been around since 2013.
And we, as you know, we getsubmissions, essay submissions
from all over the world.
And the overwhelming majorityof them are written by uh
females.
Um and I my eyes kind of alwayslight up when I get an essay
(02:27):
written by a man because I thinkyou know, there are precious
few men out there who feelcomfortable uh opening up about
mental health, uh about speakingpublicly, about things like
suicidality.
Um and I feel like there'sstill a stigma um surrounding
(02:49):
men in mental health, and Iwould love to hear your thoughts
and feelings about that.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (02:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think as you say, it is,you know, as uh as males,
sometimes, depending on theenvironment we grow up in, we're
highly conditioned to suppressour feelings or to quietly carry
the weight of the world on ourshoulders, if you will.
But I think as somebody who hasdealt with these challenges
(03:18):
firsthand at different stages ofmy life, I can say that what
really helped me get throughthem was opening up and and and
just, I mean, doing it some wayor another, whether through
writing, whether through talkingabout it with people I trust.
Because, you know, there arewhen I've been in those places
(03:40):
in my life, there were I thinkmaybe three stories of people
who unfortunately committedsuicide and really hit me.
And they were all male.
You know, one was David FosterWallace, another one was Anthony
Bourdain, and another one wasGary Speed.
(04:01):
And I think those three greatuh people who were great at what
they did, you know, there werepeople who I aspired to be, you
know, one was a genius writer,the other one was one of the
best footballers managers in theUK, and the other one was a
travel host, you know, threethings that exemplify three
(04:22):
dimensions in my life.
And it's like, how can this guyseemingly have it all?
And yet they're carrying aburden that maybe I I I don't
know who realized around themthat what they were carrying.
And I think for a long timethat was the case with me.
You know, people would look atmy life and it's like, you have
(04:42):
everything.
How can you say you'restruggling?
But you know, it's it's becausewe have that conditioning that
says, well, you need to performor you need to, you know, just
take the burden and and and dealwith it.
And I mean, maybe once we startdealing with it internally,
it's it's better at least.
And it helps it's a processthat eventually guides us to
(05:03):
open up.
But how many people don't everdeal with it?
So so I I hope that you know,by putting the story out there,
all the people will have thecourage to, you know, at least
take a look at what's going onin their life, and and and maybe
that changes the trajectory ofof their lives as well.
Gabe Nathan (05:24):
So I know that it will, and I know that it does.
And the the your essays, youand you have two on our site,
one specifically dealing withsuicidality, and that's the one
that we're going to really focuson today.
But I I know for a fact thatthese essays help people because
I'm lucky enough to receivecomments and to receive feedback
(05:48):
and to receive affirmations ofthe work that we do from other
people out there who are readingthese.
And they're almost like um, youknow, when you when you uh take
a dandelion and you blow it andthose wisps go out everywhere.
That's what these essays are tome.
That's how I look at them.
They're just these little wispsgoing out into the ether for
(06:09):
someone to grab one, right?
And they're finding a littlenugget of uh hope there.
Um and that's it's uh it's soimportant and it's so special
what you're giving to people umthrough coming forward and
speaking openly.
And I don't know.
(06:32):
I just really feel like uhpeople opening up is what helps
move the needle.
Um it's what helps change uhthe conversation, or even just
start the conversation, even ifthe conversation is just
happening inside uh of someone'sown head.
And I that's where I thinkthat's where it starts, right?
(06:53):
Um how you're talking toyourself about what you're
feeling.
Um I can tell you that I have avery self-abusive uh monologue
that goes on in my head.
Dumb fuck, you fuck up, youfucked it up, you you know, uh
you're hopeless, you'repathetic, you're an imbecile.
I mean, and it's like uh it'snon-stop, it's relentless.
(07:16):
And part of why I uh uh went totherapy was to try to uh change
that uh uh monologue a littlebit, um, to soften it a little
bit, to try to challenge thosethoughts.
And I I would love to hear fromyou.
I don't know what's yourmonologue like in your in your
(07:36):
head.
And uh obviously it's changedat different times in your life,
um, but I would love to hearabout like how do you talk to
yourself?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (07:45):
Yeah, of course.
That's that's that's always agood question.
I think from my end, uh and ithas changed over time, as you
say, and and I think one of thethings that it's actually in one
of the essays I wrote, theother essay about tennis, and I
think playing tennis, amongother things, is something that
(08:06):
really helped me change myinternal monologue actually, and
to find or to even eliminate itat times, you know, like to try
to be in the moment, try to bepresent.
But I think if I look back, I Iwould say that the worst part
of the monologue for me when itcame down to it was the fear of
(08:26):
having done something wrong.
Uh it was uh whatever I said,whatever I did, because you
know, when we grew up in a waythat reactions are
unpredictable, that we don'tknow what triggers something,
then we're always, oh, did I dosomething wrong?
Did I say something wrong?
Is this person angry?
Did I mess up whatever?
So it almost becomes like thisuh need to double-check
(08:51):
everything, triple-checkeverything, and and and it can
trigger a lot of uh of anxiety.
And as I said, there arevarious ways in which I've I've
I've worked on it, but tennis isis is is is has been one of the
greatest ones because you're onthe court, you have no escape
unless you run away from thecourt and you don't want to do
(09:11):
that when you're a mid-match.
You have no choice but to faceit.
And you have to remember thatyou can be having you know a
terrible day, but in one or twopoints you can turn around.
And and that's really a littlebit like life.
You know, you can be wonderingall the things you did wrong.
But then the same day, it'slike there's no need to just hit
(09:33):
the reset button, you know,which is I think what I was so
so conditioned to do.
Um so yeah, I mean, I would saythat that was the main inner
monologue.
Like, did I do something wrong?
That was a question that wasterrifying.
Uh yeah.
Gabe Nathan (09:51):
And uh and it's so it's so easy to obsess over that
and make up stories.
Um, I I know this person'sangry at me.
Oh, I didn't get an email backfrom this person in an hour.
They must be angry with me.
I must have offended them.
I must have put my foot in mymouth.
I mean, I like you're you'respeaking my language, shall I
(10:13):
say?
It's hard.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (10:16):
Yeah, because especially when there's
a lack of immediate orshort-term validation that you
didn't do wrong, it's easy tofall for the assumption that you
did.
And most of the times we'rewrong, actually.
We didn't do anything wrong.
I mean, if you think about it,I mean, people are busy, they're
living their lives, they don'tget back to you because And
(10:38):
they're not always thinkingabout you.
Gabe Nathan (10:40):
And my my mother, who loves, which is always good
for a zinger, she'll always say,Gabriel, you're not that
important.
And it's that's true.
Like we we're the star of ourown story, right?
We're the main character.
But in everyone else's story,they're the main character, and
they have a lot of shit on theirmind, and they are not
(11:01):
constantly thinking about you.
Um, and it's actually reallygood to remind myself of that.
Um, that whatever I said or didprobably doesn't have as big an
impact on another person as I'mimagining it does.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (11:16):
Yeah, and I think that's been amplified in
today's world, you know, withthe expectation of instant
responsiveness that everybodyseems to have.
Or not everybody, but a lot ofpeople, you know, they're like,
oh, well, if I don't respondright away, I've been on the
receiving end of that too.
Like, did I say somethingwrong?
Are you hanging?
And and you know, the realityis we all have our rhythm, we
(11:38):
have things to do, we have uhand most of the times I think
what has helped me actually isto look at the situation the
other way around.
When I when I see somebodyrequiring that validation of uh
to let them know that theydidn't do anything wrong, then I
think to myself, well, I'veactually been on the other end
(11:58):
plenty of times.
So am I really angry?
Well, the answer is no, man,not really.
I mean, I'm just busy.
So I think if we look at atthings the uh the other way
around, it helps us realize,okay, maybe this is just a mind
going on overdrive, but it ittakes time and and definitely, I
mean, especially if it's apattern that's deeply ingrained,
(12:20):
it's it's something that, youknow.
But but yeah, I mean, it'simportant to work on it.
That's that's what I would say,because 99% of the time we
didn't do it anything wrong, andand it's just our our mind
trying to make up for it basedon uh on trauma, really.
Gabe Nathan (12:40):
So yeah, and anxiety.
Um what if, what if, what if Ifuck out what if I did it and
you can what if yourself todeath uh really.
Um I I I want to talk about umwriting as a as a form of of
self-expression and kind ofwrestling with uh those ideas
(13:03):
and those anxieties and likethose what-ifs and and kind of
making it uh uh a little bitmore constructive rather than
just kind of obsessivelywringing your hands, but like
maybe sitting down to write.
And I I want to talk about youruh experience with writing.
Um how did you get interestedin it and when did you start
(13:26):
moving in a direction where youwanted to use writing to explore
mental health issues?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (13:32):
Yeah, well, I think I've all I've
always written.
It didn't become a a secondcareer for me, let's say, until
2020, so roughly when you know II came from the travel world
and the travel industry hadn'treally gotten back to its feet.
So I I started exploring that.
But I've always written, youknow, as a kid, I would write,
(13:55):
imagine things.
Uh and it was a natural way forme to process stuff, and it was
a natural way for me to to dealwith whatever.
And what I've found latelyactually through a project I'm
working on right now is that itcan also be a a way in which
(14:17):
you're rewriting your story inreal time, let's say.
And what I mean by that is, Imean, um been creating a f uh a
fiction work, you know, becausefor the years where I was fully
merced in my writing career, ora lot of my creative projects
really were put on on hold for alittle bit.
I could only write so much andI had some some great
(14:38):
assignments that led me to tolearn a lot actually.
But I think right now it's beenvery interesting because as I'm
writing this this book, it'sthe character is obviously based
on some uh status of my life,some of aspects of my life.
(15:00):
And it's been really catharticactually to to write the story
and to put it in you know in ain a way that helps me process
it.
And and I think I mean for mewriting the main thing really
self-awareness.
I would say it it it'sespecially for people who like I
(15:22):
used to have this fear thateverybody around you is judging
you.
It's one of the first safeplaces in which you can start to
develop that self-awarenessbecause it's there's nobody
there, it's just you and thepage.
So you can put it down, you cansay whatever you want.
Uh I mean now with tools likewe have AI and all that, it can
(15:45):
really help you structure a lotof stuff.
And, you know, it it's uhnobody's gonna judge you.
So actually just putting thatinto practice can get you to the
point where you realize, well,maybe those people around me
aren't judging me either.
You know, I just have to givemyself permission to really
(16:06):
realize how I feel and what I'mfeeling and what I'm thinking
about, and and you know, whichmaybe if I was afraid all the
time, I didn't even get thatfar.
So I would say writing is agreat first step in that in that
direction and and a very deepone, by the way.
Gabe Nathan (16:24):
It's so interesting to hear you talk about writing
in that way.
And it's something that I loveso much, and I've always done it
as well.
And I've always looked at it asuh a safe place uh to uh
express myself, to explorewhat's painful, what's funny, uh
(16:46):
what's devastating um about uhuh my own life or about life in
general.
Um I've always found itexciting.
Like when I sit down to write,I often don't know what's gonna
come out, and I'm I'm excited tofind out.
Um and it is it is cathartic.
Um but like here's the thing uhabout something that you said.
(17:10):
So you were talking aboutjudgment and this uh this fear
that everybody's judging you andthat writing is this place
where nobody's gonna judge youbecause it's this solitary
thing, right?
It's it's just you and thepage.
But what happens when you putit out there, then you're kind
of giving the work to thepublic, to anyone.
(17:31):
And there can't there isjudgment there.
Um so how do you how do yousquare that?
How do you cope with that?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (17:39):
Yeah, that's a a really interesting
question because I I actuallythink if I'm if I've been able
to get to the point where Ireally don't care what people
think about me, because I reallydon't, not anymore, is thanks
to writing.
I just think I published somuch over the stretch of years,
(18:02):
maybe five, six, seven years.
That I it's like, well, uh alot of my life became an open
book.
And maybe some stories are notout there anymore, maybe some
are, you know, some are inprint.
But it just it was like enoughexposure therapy, if you will,
call it that way.
That is just that it justtaught me how to be open enough
(18:26):
to the point where I where Icouldn't care less.
And I was terrified at thebeginning.
It's like, no, how am I gonnaput that out there?
What are people gonna think?
What are, you know, all thosethings we think about.
And I think, yeah, writing wasactually the best, the best
process to get there.
Because and and and that waswhen some some friends asked me,
(18:47):
is this just put it out.
You know, the pe the the peoplewho really care about you, love
you, are going to actually bedelighted that they can learn
more about you.
And they're going to see uh howthey can support you.
And the rest I mean, why wouldyou give emotional control to
(19:07):
anybody else?
You know, and and uh again, Imean, just and you know what?
Like I I'm actually gonna addthis because I think if I had
only published in my ownchannels, it would have been
easy for me to delete them.
And say, okay, no, there's noway you can trace me now.
But I publish with so manyoutlet media that a lot of
(19:28):
things I have no control overwhat happens to them.
And that and and and andaccepting that and just kind of
relinquishing that desire tocontrol that narrative.
I think it was very powerful.
I I think it was like a greatway to get from being terrified
of putting myself out there to,okay, well, I'm there.
(19:50):
What's next?
Gabe Nathan (19:52):
And what an evolution.
Um, because there can be suchfear about giving a creative
thing, giving control.
of that over to an editor or apublisher or to the public.
But you really went on ajourney where you found you were
(20:13):
able to uh wrestle with thatinternally and grow and evolve
and be comfortable and confidentand just say, here's here it
is.
Take it or leave it.
And I that's just it's sowonderful.
And I'm so glad that you foundus um and that you gave us two
(20:36):
beautiful pieces that havemeaning and resonance and that
are hopeful and helpful.
And I don't know it just itjust means a lot to me.
So I just wanted to thank youfor that.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (20:50):
No and thank you.
I mean I I I appreciate thespace.
I I you know and and I thinkyou built a great community and
and hopefully as I was sayingthe right people will see them
and the right people willresonate with them just as I
have with other people's workand and that's what we can do.
Gabe Nathan (21:08):
Did you have any trepidation about coming to us
for the first time um with apiece about your mental health?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (21:16):
Do you remember what that was like for
you not not really because itwas very like a stream of
consciousness based and I justknew I knew what just because I
was going through it at thatpoint in time I just needed to
to put it out there.
Like I just knew it would helpme.
(21:36):
I just knew it would uh I guessmaybe in the backbone I didn't
think okay what will peoplethink or whatever but no I just
knew it was the right thing todo.
And and it's one of thosepieces that come to you you know
like it happened to me actuallynot too long ago with a I also
(21:59):
write lyrics for music and I wasjust walking around and I
stumble upon this scene and Iget home and I feel the need to
write a song based on that scenethat unfolded.
And I sent it to a friend ofsome musician and it was a very
serendipitous thing where it wasdirectly related to an album he
(22:20):
was working on.
And it you know if I hadn'tlistened to it and taken time to
do it and this greatcollaboration and and and and
and beautiful piece thatresulted wouldn't have happened.
And I think it was very similaractually it was just something
that served its purpose and itit was easier to do it than to
(22:42):
not do it.
You know what I mean?
Gabe Nathan (22:46):
And I'm I'm glad that you did and it's it's
talking about something that weneed to talk about uh as as
human beings and as men inparticular.
And I'm talking about suicideand and you know related to that
we know that men um are threetimes as likely than women to
(23:09):
die by suicide.
And part of the reason for thatis they're more likely to use
firearms, which of course ifyou're uh using a firearm you're
probably not going to come backfrom that.
So the the outcome is going tobe more fatal um most of the
time.
And the we just need to betalking about it.
(23:32):
And I was thinking about thethree suicides that you
mentioned um at the top of theshow and what you were saying
about them that you know theseguys appear to have everything
and you know how could uh howcould suicide have touched them?
(23:53):
And I guess a takeaway that Iwanted to touch on is that
mental illness, depression,suicide doesn't give a shit
about how much money you have inthe bank.
It doesn't give a shit abouthow handsome you are or what
kind of car you drive or whoyou're in a relationship with.
(24:15):
None of that stuff mattersbecause the truth is about
suicide is that nobody isinvincible and everybody anybody
can be at risk for taking theirown life no matter what their
lives look like on paper or orwhat their forward facing life
(24:37):
looks like on social media or orwhatever.
It can happen to any of us.
And that's that's one thingthat I wanted to be sure that I
said about suicide here.
And I I'm curious to hear fromyou about from your life
experience and your perspectivewhat do you what do you want
(25:01):
people to know about suicidalityabout feeling suicidal about
that mindset.
What do you want to share aboutit?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (25:11):
You never know what somebody's going
through um so it's always betternot to judge and it's always
better to if you have an issuewith someone ask thoughtful
questions and see if you can getto the situation especially if
it's somebody you care about.
(25:31):
But on the other hand you knowfrom the side of the person
who's going through it who'sbeen through it you know I mean
uh so I said before one of thetimes it happened to me when I
was not thinking about like a Iwas pretty serious if somebody
looked at my life from theoutside it's like how can this
guy be going to that you know Imean you know lives in a
(25:53):
beautiful apartment seeminglyhas everything figured out you
know young prodigy whatever andI was still thinking of jumping
off that building in thatapartment and I and I think if I
could you know talk to thatperson of myself or and to
(26:14):
anybody who's going through thatbecause I I have had people in
my life who have gone throughthat.
Uh I would say that there arepeople who care about you more
than you think.
And it's very hard to open upand it's very hard to let them
(26:36):
in and it's very hard to youknow because if we've gotten to
that point it's usually becausewe built plenty of walls that uh
but you know slowly we candemolish those walls if you will
but it's not it doesn't happenovernight.
(26:57):
But you know one one day at atime we can realize that we can
actually integrate I guessdifferent aspects of of our life
and we can see that maybe atleast a considerable part of the
narrative we were forming inour head that led us there
(27:20):
wasn't actually true.
Yeah um and I mean I woulddefinitely I had a great
therapist who helped me a lotover a period of time and I was
very lucky to find her and youknow and I it it w it was a
process.
I I'm not gonna say it waseasy.
(27:40):
It requires us to really let uhagain another clichib let go of
of our ego and you knowwhatever we think was so great
or you know whatever but it's itreally takes work.
But I I I think you know Ithought I was alone and I
(28:01):
realized I'm not and I think ifmore people could find it out
and you know even find a littlebit of a a respite through a
book through you know a councilthrough an essay through an
essay hopefully for instanceyeah I mean I remember there was
a book called uh you may haveread it uh Reasons to Stay Alive
(28:26):
by Matt Haig and he talks aboutthis when he went through you
know and and just little nuggetsof wisdom really of somebody
going through a very hard timeand can read something like that
and realize okay well I'm notthe only one going through this
I'm not so that's why I guessit's very important to share
(28:48):
this story is because it's youknow we don't know what what's
behind people's minds and andhearts and you know and and we
may see somebody very veryfamous or that we admire but
they're struggling and and whenwhen when the conversation opens
up I mean in the tennis worldfor instance so many top players
(29:10):
have talked about the mentalissues yeah and I think it's so
important that they do becauseit you know if you're a young
player starting out and youthink oh I want to kill myself
I'm not the best or I don't wantto do this anymore.
And in any field really well Imean what does that really tell
(29:30):
you in the grand scheme ofthings?
Gabe Nathan (29:33):
And and does it is it really a life of that or that
matter so and the more peoplewho are talking the more the
conversation gets normalized andthe more people go, oh okay
it's it's okay to talk aboutthis because so and so who I
admire is talking about it.
It's okay to feel this way it'sokay to give voice to my
(29:53):
feelings.
And it it's the entire reasonbehind why we do what we do.
It's it's literally the wholereason so that people don't feel
like they're alone.
So that they can pull up thatthey they can pull up these
essays and go, oh my God,Javier, oh my God, Miriam oh my
God.
They're all of these people whoare literally telling their
(30:16):
stories so that other people cansay aha them too.
It's not just me.
And um and your your commentabout uh walls about how you
know when we get to the pointwhere we're thinking about
taking their own life, we'veprobably built a lot of walls
around us.
(30:36):
And I think uh if I think aboutthe reason why and I have
definitely done this in my ownlife um I built walls uh under
the delusion that it's toprotect myself.
But really uh when you buildwalls, you're keeping people
(30:57):
out, people who care about you.
And it's only when the wallcomes down uh that people can
come to you and love on you andand let you know what you mean
to them.
If the wall is up you're notgoing to be able to receive any
of that.
You're gonna be inaccessible.
Um and that's a real tragedybecause there are people like
(31:20):
you said there are people whocare um there are people who
want you to stay yeah absolutelyabsolutely um and I I can't
think of a better lead in um toyour essay which I'm I'm so
proud to have on our site um itis called surviving suicidality
(31:42):
to live in a wonderful world andI would love to hear you read
it in your own voice.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (31:49):
It is a wonderful world I said to myself
on what I thought would be mylast walk.
It had only been a few minutessince I had last thought of
ending my life I had prepared myhome for my suicide and set
myself ready to find peace onthe other side whatever that
meant.
I found relief in the prospectof my spirit going back to where
(32:12):
it belonged while my bodysuffered the effects of my
lethal method of choice.
Before I did that however Iwanted to go under one last
round of appreciation for theworld I thought I'd leave
behind.
This had not been the firsttime.
A few years before then I saton the edge of my balcony up on
(32:33):
the 47th floor on one ofToronto's Ritzy glitz
skyscrapers anything could haveknocked me down a strong gust of
wind, one erroneous move, agentle slide.
I was inches away fromplummeting, from transforming
hopes and dreams into brokenbones, torn muscles and
eventually scattered ashes.
(32:55):
I recalled at Toronto nightduring that last walk I also
remember the many times I nearlydied unintentionally like in a
horrendous car accident at 16where the police officers who
attended scene exclaimed howsurprised they were that I had
immersion scatter.
My several episodes withsubstance abuse and its
(33:17):
correspondent reckless behavioreven if I seem to have
accomplished a lot at a shortage there's still a part of me
that seems keen onself-sabotaging.
Occasionally though it is thelight that wins I didn't kill
myself that afternoon cominghome after that walk and that is
(33:38):
the starting point.
People I've spoken with saythat when we're about to die we
regain the capacity to lawpurely all of our fears
resentments skill trips we shedthem they fall away in the face
of death I found that to be verytrue.
Since I was a kid I have beenhighly sensitive.
(34:00):
I absorb the energies of thosearound me and when harnessed
properly these qualities are awonderful asset.
They can help us heal and bethe healer the problem was I
didn't know how to harness themproperly likely because there
was nobody around me that hadlearned how how or what to do
(34:21):
with that with their sensitivityto energy.
So how could they teach someoneto do what they didn't know how
to do themselves I can't blamethem but because of this I
absorbed the values of thesociety around me.
I wanted to be accepted so Ipicked up the cues of what being
accepted would mean I clung towhat everybody expected of me
(34:43):
which had always had to beperfection and as a result
engaged in people pleasingbehaviors.
I didn't know what boundarieswere so it didn't occur to me
that I had the right to set anyhow can I know what I don't know
I don't know about.
As a result nothing I did wasenough.
By the age of 25 I had built aseven figure business I had
(35:07):
traveled the world and made manyfriends around it.
I was seen as a rising starwith bucket loads of talent in
every front athletic, artisticand entrepreneurial and yet I
never felt satisfied I ended uplosing my business due to poor
decisions, partnering with thewrong people, not leading from
(35:27):
within but leading to create animage I wanted others to have of
me and this led me to be indeep death.
When it came to my personallife it wasn't any better.
I ended up in a codependentrelationship where I was afraid
of speaking up for my needs andinstead I switched the pain with
paid sex, alcohol and othersubstances.
(35:48):
I was Jacqueline Hyde, seen asthe wise imperturbable Buddha
yet inside I was falling apartand I headed out to my balcony
to let my body catch up withwhat already was my spiritual
condition.
Inside I was already deadsometime after that strange
(36:10):
mystic force persuaded me towalk back to safety I found a
business card in one bag that Iwas about to discard.
It said something about healingand for some reason the energy
of the card spoke to me Idecided to email this person and
for the next three years shebecame a therapist.
It wasn't always easy assomebody that had grown with
(36:32):
consistential perfectionistattitude learning that I had
issues that I needed to work onwas a tough pill to swallow but
as the adat says uh the only waywas through since I was a child
I had a feeling that I mighthave a certain degree of
clarity.
My confidence would have beenflow sometimes I was on top of
(36:54):
the world where while othertimes I couldn't bring myself to
do anything.
This became more evident as Ibecame a competitive tennis
player as a teenager.
I could play tremendous matchespull out unexpected comebacks
and I won several doublestournaments by taking the lead
and inspiring whoever was mypartner however I was also
(37:16):
capable of having completemeltdowns.
I remember collapsingmid-match, unable to stop my
mind and either exploding inanger or simply succumbing to
indifference the same way a fewprofessional players throw the
towel nowadays.
Why did sometimes I have theenergy to do anything, to
overcome any feet while otherdays I could hardly get out of
(37:39):
beding with my therapist helpedme accept these swings as part
of who I was and to love myselfnot despite it but because of
it.
Working with her I learnedabout boundaries about self-love
about how to accept myself andlet go of harmful people
pleasing patterns.
The following three yearscarried a lot of deep work a
(38:00):
significant amount of tears ofanger and of letting go of
previously in processed pain.
That work I did with mytherapist led me on the path of
self-love growth and healing andthen I began to do the work by
myself.
I developed a routine where Ijournal meditate and engage in
the practice that has largelysaved my life which is the
(38:23):
hopanopono.
The hope is a practicedeveloped by Hakuna Morna
Simeona in Hawaii and itrevolves around reconciliation
and forgiveness.
It's based on four mantras I'msorry please forgive me thank
you I love you through which werestore ourselves to our
original state a state of zero astate of love it has been this
(38:47):
practice that has also allowedme to live one day at a time
shortly after my journey with mytherapist came to an end I met
my girlfriend it was the firstconscious relationship I had
together we did a lot of deephealing working together on
books like Hold Me Tight by SueJohnson and Getting the Love You
(39:10):
Want by Horbel Hendricks andHelen McKelly Hunt through her I
learned how to be vulnerablewith another person and how to
let go of my previouslycodependent patterns to forge a
relationship where twoindependent people can come
together to thrive and help eachother grow.
My girlfriend also possessesdeep intuitive qualities and it
(39:33):
was her who texted me when I washalfway through on what I
thought would be my last walk.
It was not the typicalHollywood like savior message
where somebody goes through anextreme sacrifice to save
somebody else because that isnot what true love is about.
True love as I learned throughthis relationship is about
loving ourselves and othersabout doing the work we need to
(39:56):
do on ourselves so we can helpthe healing process of Those
around us.
It was this that she remindedme of the importance of the work
I was doing and how it helpedthe world, mostly because I was
willing to face my challengesand grow my soul.
On that last walk, I wasmarveling at everything I saw.
(40:17):
The birds, the docks, theclouds, the trees, the way
certain leaves pile up on thesidewalks.
I do live in a beautiful town,San Miguel de Allende in Mexico,
where I came first four yearsago.
It is a town that has changedmy perspective of life.
And if it was supposed to be mylast walk, how was I not going
(40:37):
to enjoy for one last time itsgreat breathtaking streets and
views?
For the first time in a while,I felt joy.
What if I lived this way?
I thought.
Perhaps not everything would beso dreary.
Perhaps I could find a way.
And perhaps I could choose tolive a little longer.
Gabe Nathan (40:59):
Thank you so much for reading that.
And thank you for choosing tolive a little longer.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (41:05):
Thank you.
Thank you for giving providingthe space and and you know.
Yeah.
I'm happy I did.
Gabe Nathan (41:13):
What was it like to go back to that piece and that
that time in your life?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (41:19):
Yeah, well, it's it's very interesting
that it happened just nowbecause that piece was written
in 2021, if I remembercorrectly.
And that was one of the mostdifficult periods really of my
life.
Uh uh in you know, shortlyafter that I left San Miguel for
(41:45):
a while.
I moved to San Diego, livedthree years in San Diego.
And I just got back to SanMiguel four months ago.
Uh and it's been great.
I had never been happier.
So to see it and look back andsee, I mean, what would have
happened if only I had taken adecision?
(42:06):
It's it's it's almost uh Imean, I've uh this past four
months I've actually been in aperiod of deep growth, I would
say.
And I just think this happenedat the right time for me to look
back and appreciate and see,wow, I mean, it's really been a
journey.
Uh, and I'm happy to see,because sometimes when we go
(42:28):
through something difficult,it's easy to hate the place
where it happened, you know.
And in my case, I moved somuch.
It's hard to hate the world.
I mean, if you have a problemeverywhere in the world, the
problem is likely you, you know.
So it's uh so to come back andand just find home here.
No, in the same way I I have, Iguess, everywhere I live, but
(42:49):
just to to be in this statewhere I can read this and see,
well, this this it's been uh anincredible journey, really, with
a lot of ups and downs.
But just to know that I'm here,to know that I'm happy, that
I'm in a good place, it's it'sactually a way of bringing that
(43:09):
narrative full circle, if youwill.
Uh that on on one side, and andalso, you know, uh on the other
side, uh uh on another note.
The person who was my mygirlfriend at that time, who's
somebody a little dealing, shepassed away last year.
(43:30):
Oh I'm sorry.
Uh yeah, you know, I mean, wewere best friends until you know
we weren't together anymore,but we were best friends, and
it's uh it's also a way tobring, you know, as a part of
the of the grief grievingprocess, I guess, to remember
those things in your life.
Uh, but it's yeah, I mean, ifanything, I would like this
(43:58):
piece of somebody who'slistening to say, well, you
know, look at the look at wherethis person was four years ago.
Number one is still here threeyears later.
That's that's alreadysomething.
And then to be in a good place,to be happy, to be building a
business you like, to bebuilding your life you like, to
(44:19):
be around persons, uh aroundpeople you love.
I mean uh uh it it it I I hopeit serves that way.
You know, I hope it serves as aas a way where somebody who
writes their story today canlook back at it in four years
and say, Well, four years ago Iwas here.
Look how far I'm and maybeyou're in the same place
(44:42):
geographically, or life gets youback there, you know, wherever
you are.
But it almost feels like you'rein a different place because
you have a completely differentstate of being.
Gabe Nathan (44:55):
Yeah, you're seeing with new eyes.
It may be the same streets andthe same views and scenery, but
it's you're different.
So you're going to see thingsdifferently.
And uh and this is why we bringpeople back.
This is one of the core uhreasons why we started this
podcast is because we would havethese relationships of people,
(45:17):
one essay, two essays, maybethree essays at the max.
And then we wouldn't hear frompeople again.
And uh so it left me wonderingGod, what's happening with
so-and-so ever so-and-so wrotean essay in 2016.
I wonder how they're doing.
Now we get to know.
You know, now we get to bringpeople back.
And and you know, this is thefirst time I'm seeing you face
(45:40):
to face.
We worked on on your essaystogether, and like uh it's such
a selfishly it's wonderful forme as someone who's been with
this organization since 2014 toconnect with our authors uh in a
new way.
Uh and I I just love that.
Um and also to show people thatyes, an essay or a film, it's a
(46:06):
snapshot in time.
And this is who this person waswhen we hit publish.
And then their life keepsgoing.
And, you know, we always sayrecovery is not linear, right?
It's not just this slowtrajectory up the mountaintop.
And at the mountaintop, there'sa flag that says recovery, and
ah, I'm here.
It's it's very up and down.
(46:27):
And, you know, you used thatphrase to describe the last four
years.
Um, and it's it's kind ofincredible what you've what
you've been through.
And that's what we want tobring to people.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (46:41):
Oh, thank you.
And and again, thank you for Ithink it's a great idea to
create this space for people tocome back and share what's
happened in their lives becauseit can it you know, time it can
help so so many, so many people.
Luke, okay, I read their essay,What Happened to Them.
It's so it's great.
(47:02):
Thanks.
Thanks for creating this.
Gabe Nathan (47:05):
That's my pleasure.
And and it's it's just such ajoy to have you here.
And I guess if you if you hadone parting thought for people
out there who are struggling,especially men, um, they're
struggling with that weight ofthe world on their shoulders,
like you said earlier in theshow, and um maybe contemplating
(47:27):
suicide.
Um, I just want to hear whatyou'd want to what you'd want to
say to these folks.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (47:34):
Yeah, I would say I mean take a little
step.
Start with writing down, ifthat helps, how do you feel?
You know, use whatever tool youfeel comfortable with to find
help.
Uh and gradually, I mean,especially even if you start
journaling, writing, meditating,it will get you to the point
(47:55):
where you can talk to peopleabout it.
It will, you know, it's like itit's hard to s to say, okay,
I'm gonna solve my life tomorrowbecause then it's easy to give
up.
But if we start to make itintentional to okay, I'm uh I'm
angry, I'm this, I'm that.
(48:16):
Why is that?
And it's uh uh if we start tounpack this whether through
journaling, I mean, so I saidthere are many tools that can
that can be of help andeventually ideally having you
know the taking the time uh tohave the conversations that
(48:36):
matter because the people whocare about you will listen.
And you know, one tiny step ata time you look back and it's
like, wow, I I look at all lookat all I did, look at all the
things that scared me that Idid.
And I and instead of trying tobe the person behind the scenes
who could handle everything,because that's I think how a lot
(48:58):
of us have felt at some pointin time, like, oh, you know, I'm
alone, I need to maneuveraround and take care of
everything, you start to leanin, at least that's what
happened to me.
Um, start to lean in furtherinto whatever your world is.
And then everything that Ithought I needed to hide or or
(49:20):
or it starts to dissolve.
And it just becomes a worldwhere I'm more seen, where
people are more where there's nolonger that need to maneuver
behind the scenes to say, oh, Ihave to take care of this
without anybody noticing,because otherwise everybody will
hate me, kind of thing.
Well, no, it's not actuallytrue.
I mean, everybody you know uhwe can quietly let but you know,
(49:46):
gradually let go of thatweight.
We're caring.
And I would say yeah, if ifwe're consistent about it, like
even just writing what we f howwe feel, writing down and taking
action, you know, then and ourlives can can really change.
Gabe Nathan (50:09):
Yeah, and I think to to uh dovetail off what you
were saying about thoughts inour head and our our
perceptions, I think so oftensometimes when people take their
lives, they're succumbing to uhstories that they've told
themselves.
Um nobody would care if I wasgone, everybody hates me anyway,
(50:34):
all I do is fuck things up, um,people would be better off
without me.
All of these lies, they're justsuch horrible, destructive
lies.
And the more uh that we canchange that narrative, um I
think the the healthier we canbe.
Yeah, absolutely.
(50:56):
Uh it was such a pleasure tohave you here.
Thank you so much for takingsome time to talk to us.
I really appreciate it.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (51:03):
No, great to see you as well.
Thank you for creating thisspace once again.
And uh yeah, looking forward tolistening to some more of the
stories.
Gabe Nathan (51:10):
My pleasure.
Take good care.
You as well.
Thank you very much.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest today, Javier
Ortega-Araiza, a writer,storyteller, digital nomad, and
(51:32):
serial entrepreneur, andcompetitive tennis and
pickleball player.
We are so grateful to him forspeaking to us from his home in
Mexico.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiaries.org.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(51:52):
videos, and content about mentalhealth, empowerment, and
change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here withoutyou.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay, or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good careof it.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries in Depth.
I'm your host, Gabe Nathan.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're very happy to have youhere.
We are so happy to have on theshow today Javier
Ortega-Araiza.
He's a writer, storyteller,digital nomad, and serial
entrepreneur, as well as acompetitive tennis and
(00:21):
pickleball player currentlyliving in Mexico.
Each week, we'll bring you arecovery diaries contributor,
folks who have shared theirmental health journey with us
through essay or video format.
We want to see where they areon their mental health journey
since initially being publishedon our website.
Our goal is to continuesupporting our diverse community
by having conversations here onour podcast to follow up and
(00:44):
see what has shifted, what haschanged, and what new things
have emerged.
We're so happy to have youalong for this journey.
We want to remind you to followour show for new and back
episodes at recoverydiaries.org.
There, like the podcast, you'llfind stories of mental health,
empowerment, and change.
You can also sign up for ourmailing list there so you never
(01:06):
miss a new podcast episode,essay, or film.
And you can find this podcastpretty much anywhere you get
your podcasts.
We appreciate your comments andfeedback about our show.
It helps us improve, makechanges, and grow.
And of course, make sure tolike, share, and subscribe.
Javier, it is such a joy um tohave you here on the show.
(01:33):
Um thanks so much for beinghere.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (01:36):
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here aswell and uh looking forward to
our conversation.
Gabe Nathan (01:43):
And a conversation is what we will have, and a
conversation about mentalhealth, a conversation about
suicide prevention, and uh uhabout mental health storytelling
in general um from theperspective of a man.
And I I want to start with thatbecause uh our mental health
(02:05):
publication, it's been aroundfor a long time.
It's been around since 2013.
And we, as you know, we getsubmissions, essay submissions
from all over the world.
And the overwhelming majorityof them are written by uh
females.
Um and I my eyes kind of alwayslight up when I get an essay
(02:27):
written by a man because I thinkyou know, there are precious
few men out there who feelcomfortable uh opening up about
mental health, uh about speakingpublicly, about things like
suicidality.
Um and I feel like there'sstill a stigma um surrounding
(02:49):
men in mental health, and Iwould love to hear your thoughts
and feelings about that.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (02:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think as you say, it is,you know, as uh as males,
sometimes, depending on theenvironment we grow up in, we're
highly conditioned to suppressour feelings or to quietly carry
the weight of the world on ourshoulders, if you will.
But I think as somebody who hasdealt with these challenges
(03:18):
firsthand at different stages ofmy life, I can say that what
really helped me get throughthem was opening up and and and
just, I mean, doing it some wayor another, whether through
writing, whether through talkingabout it with people I trust.
Because, you know, there arewhen I've been in those places
(03:40):
in my life, there were I thinkmaybe three stories of people
who unfortunately committedsuicide and really hit me.
And they were all male.
You know, one was David FosterWallace, another one was Anthony
Bourdain, and another one wasGary Speed.
(04:01):
And I think those three greatuh people who were great at what
they did, you know, there werepeople who I aspired to be, you
know, one was a genius writer,the other one was one of the
best footballers managers in theUK, and the other one was a
travel host, you know, threethings that exemplify three
(04:22):
dimensions in my life.
And it's like, how can this guyseemingly have it all?
And yet they're carrying aburden that maybe I I I don't
know who realized around themthat what they were carrying.
And I think for a long timethat was the case with me.
You know, people would look atmy life and it's like, you have
(04:42):
everything.
How can you say you'restruggling?
But you know, it's it's becausewe have that conditioning that
says, well, you need to performor you need to, you know, just
take the burden and and and dealwith it.
And I mean, maybe once we startdealing with it internally,
it's it's better at least.
And it helps it's a processthat eventually guides us to
(05:03):
open up.
But how many people don't everdeal with it?
So so I I hope that you know,by putting the story out there,
all the people will have thecourage to, you know, at least
take a look at what's going onin their life, and and and maybe
that changes the trajectory ofof their lives as well.
Gabe Nathan (05:24):
So I know that it will, and I know that it does.
And the the your essays, youand you have two on our site,
one specifically dealing withsuicidality, and that's the one
that we're going to really focuson today.
But I I know for a fact thatthese essays help people because
I'm lucky enough to receivecomments and to receive feedback
(05:48):
and to receive affirmations ofthe work that we do from other
people out there who are readingthese.
And they're almost like um, youknow, when you when you uh take
a dandelion and you blow it andthose wisps go out everywhere.
That's what these essays are tome.
That's how I look at them.
They're just these little wispsgoing out into the ether for
(06:09):
someone to grab one, right?
And they're finding a littlenugget of uh hope there.
Um and that's it's uh it's soimportant and it's so special
what you're giving to people umthrough coming forward and
speaking openly.
And I don't know.
(06:32):
I just really feel like uhpeople opening up is what helps
move the needle.
Um it's what helps change uhthe conversation, or even just
start the conversation, even ifthe conversation is just
happening inside uh of someone'sown head.
And I that's where I thinkthat's where it starts, right?
(06:53):
Um how you're talking toyourself about what you're
feeling.
Um I can tell you that I have avery self-abusive uh monologue
that goes on in my head.
Dumb fuck, you fuck up, youfucked it up, you you know, uh
you're hopeless, you'repathetic, you're an imbecile.
I mean, and it's like uh it'snon-stop, it's relentless.
(07:16):
And part of why I uh uh went totherapy was to try to uh change
that uh uh monologue a littlebit, um, to soften it a little
bit, to try to challenge thosethoughts.
And I I would love to hear fromyou.
I don't know what's yourmonologue like in your in your
(07:36):
head.
And uh obviously it's changedat different times in your life,
um, but I would love to hearabout like how do you talk to
yourself?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (07:45):
Yeah, of course.
That's that's that's always agood question.
I think from my end, uh and ithas changed over time, as you
say, and and I think one of thethings that it's actually in one
of the essays I wrote, theother essay about tennis, and I
think playing tennis, amongother things, is something that
(08:06):
really helped me change myinternal monologue actually, and
to find or to even eliminate itat times, you know, like to try
to be in the moment, try to bepresent.
But I think if I look back, I Iwould say that the worst part
of the monologue for me when itcame down to it was the fear of
(08:26):
having done something wrong.
Uh it was uh whatever I said,whatever I did, because you
know, when we grew up in a waythat reactions are
unpredictable, that we don'tknow what triggers something,
then we're always, oh, did I dosomething wrong?
Did I say something wrong?
Is this person angry?
Did I mess up whatever?
So it almost becomes like thisuh need to double-check
(08:51):
everything, triple-checkeverything, and and and it can
trigger a lot of uh of anxiety.
And as I said, there arevarious ways in which I've I've
I've worked on it, but tennis isis is is is has been one of the
greatest ones because you're onthe court, you have no escape
unless you run away from thecourt and you don't want to do
(09:11):
that when you're a mid-match.
You have no choice but to faceit.
And you have to remember thatyou can be having you know a
terrible day, but in one or twopoints you can turn around.
And and that's really a littlebit like life.
You know, you can be wonderingall the things you did wrong.
But then the same day, it'slike there's no need to just hit
(09:33):
the reset button, you know,which is I think what I was so
so conditioned to do.
Um so yeah, I mean, I would saythat that was the main inner
monologue.
Like, did I do something wrong?
That was a question that wasterrifying.
Uh yeah.
Gabe Nathan (09:51):
And uh and it's so it's so easy to obsess over that
and make up stories.
Um, I I know this person'sangry at me.
Oh, I didn't get an email backfrom this person in an hour.
They must be angry with me.
I must have offended them.
I must have put my foot in mymouth.
I mean, I like you're you'respeaking my language, shall I
(10:13):
say?
It's hard.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (10:16):
Yeah, because especially when there's
a lack of immediate orshort-term validation that you
didn't do wrong, it's easy tofall for the assumption that you
did.
And most of the times we'rewrong, actually.
We didn't do anything wrong.
I mean, if you think about it,I mean, people are busy, they're
living their lives, they don'tget back to you because And
(10:38):
they're not always thinkingabout you.
Gabe Nathan (10:40):
And my my mother, who loves, which is always good
for a zinger, she'll always say,Gabriel, you're not that
important.
And it's that's true.
Like we we're the star of ourown story, right?
We're the main character.
But in everyone else's story,they're the main character, and
they have a lot of shit on theirmind, and they are not
(11:01):
constantly thinking about you.
Um, and it's actually reallygood to remind myself of that.
Um, that whatever I said or didprobably doesn't have as big an
impact on another person as I'mimagining it does.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (11:16):
Yeah, and I think that's been amplified in
today's world, you know, withthe expectation of instant
responsiveness that everybodyseems to have.
Or not everybody, but a lot ofpeople, you know, they're like,
oh, well, if I don't respondright away, I've been on the
receiving end of that too.
Like, did I say somethingwrong?
Are you hanging?
And and you know, the realityis we all have our rhythm, we
(11:38):
have things to do, we have uhand most of the times I think
what has helped me actually isto look at the situation the
other way around.
When I when I see somebodyrequiring that validation of uh
to let them know that theydidn't do anything wrong, then I
think to myself, well, I'veactually been on the other end
(11:58):
plenty of times.
So am I really angry?
Well, the answer is no, man,not really.
I mean, I'm just busy.
So I think if we look at atthings the uh the other way
around, it helps us realize,okay, maybe this is just a mind
going on overdrive, but it ittakes time and and definitely, I
mean, especially if it's apattern that's deeply ingrained,
(12:20):
it's it's something that, youknow.
But but yeah, I mean, it'simportant to work on it.
That's that's what I would say,because 99% of the time we
didn't do it anything wrong, andand it's just our our mind
trying to make up for it basedon uh on trauma, really.
Gabe Nathan (12:40):
So yeah, and anxiety.
Um what if, what if, what if Ifuck out what if I did it and
you can what if yourself todeath uh really.
Um I I I want to talk about umwriting as a as a form of of
self-expression and kind ofwrestling with uh those ideas
(13:03):
and those anxieties and likethose what-ifs and and kind of
making it uh uh a little bitmore constructive rather than
just kind of obsessivelywringing your hands, but like
maybe sitting down to write.
And I I want to talk about youruh experience with writing.
Um how did you get interestedin it and when did you start
(13:26):
moving in a direction where youwanted to use writing to explore
mental health issues?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (13:32):
Yeah, well, I think I've all I've
always written.
It didn't become a a secondcareer for me, let's say, until
2020, so roughly when you know II came from the travel world
and the travel industry hadn'treally gotten back to its feet.
So I I started exploring that.
But I've always written, youknow, as a kid, I would write,
(13:55):
imagine things.
Uh and it was a natural way forme to process stuff, and it was
a natural way for me to to dealwith whatever.
And what I've found latelyactually through a project I'm
working on right now is that itcan also be a a way in which
(14:17):
you're rewriting your story inreal time, let's say.
And what I mean by that is, Imean, um been creating a f uh a
fiction work, you know, becausefor the years where I was fully
merced in my writing career, ora lot of my creative projects
really were put on on hold for alittle bit.
I could only write so much andI had some some great
(14:38):
assignments that led me to tolearn a lot actually.
But I think right now it's beenvery interesting because as I'm
writing this this book, it'sthe character is obviously based
on some uh status of my life,some of aspects of my life.
(15:00):
And it's been really catharticactually to to write the story
and to put it in you know in ain a way that helps me process
it.
And and I think I mean for mewriting the main thing really
self-awareness.
I would say it it it'sespecially for people who like I
(15:22):
used to have this fear thateverybody around you is judging
you.
It's one of the first safeplaces in which you can start to
develop that self-awarenessbecause it's there's nobody
there, it's just you and thepage.
So you can put it down, you cansay whatever you want.
Uh I mean now with tools likewe have AI and all that, it can
(15:45):
really help you structure a lotof stuff.
And, you know, it it's uhnobody's gonna judge you.
So actually just putting thatinto practice can get you to the
point where you realize, well,maybe those people around me
aren't judging me either.
You know, I just have to givemyself permission to really
(16:06):
realize how I feel and what I'mfeeling and what I'm thinking
about, and and you know, whichmaybe if I was afraid all the
time, I didn't even get thatfar.
So I would say writing is agreat first step in that in that
direction and and a very deepone, by the way.
Gabe Nathan (16:24):
It's so interesting to hear you talk about writing
in that way.
And it's something that I loveso much, and I've always done it
as well.
And I've always looked at it asuh a safe place uh to uh
express myself, to explorewhat's painful, what's funny, uh
(16:46):
what's devastating um about uhuh my own life or about life in
general.
Um I've always found itexciting.
Like when I sit down to write,I often don't know what's gonna
come out, and I'm I'm excited tofind out.
Um and it is it is cathartic.
Um but like here's the thing uhabout something that you said.
(17:10):
So you were talking aboutjudgment and this uh this fear
that everybody's judging you andthat writing is this place
where nobody's gonna judge youbecause it's this solitary
thing, right?
It's it's just you and thepage.
But what happens when you putit out there, then you're kind
of giving the work to thepublic, to anyone.
(17:31):
And there can't there isjudgment there.
Um so how do you how do yousquare that?
How do you cope with that?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (17:39):
Yeah, that's a a really interesting
question because I I actuallythink if I'm if I've been able
to get to the point where Ireally don't care what people
think about me, because I reallydon't, not anymore, is thanks
to writing.
I just think I published somuch over the stretch of years,
(18:02):
maybe five, six, seven years.
That I it's like, well, uh alot of my life became an open
book.
And maybe some stories are notout there anymore, maybe some
are, you know, some are inprint.
But it just it was like enoughexposure therapy, if you will,
call it that way.
That is just that it justtaught me how to be open enough
(18:26):
to the point where I where Icouldn't care less.
And I was terrified at thebeginning.
It's like, no, how am I gonnaput that out there?
What are people gonna think?
What are, you know, all thosethings we think about.
And I think, yeah, writing wasactually the best, the best
process to get there.
Because and and and that waswhen some some friends asked me,
(18:47):
is this just put it out.
You know, the pe the the peoplewho really care about you, love
you, are going to actually bedelighted that they can learn
more about you.
And they're going to see uh howthey can support you.
And the rest I mean, why wouldyou give emotional control to
(19:07):
anybody else?
You know, and and uh again, Imean, just and you know what?
Like I I'm actually gonna addthis because I think if I had
only published in my ownchannels, it would have been
easy for me to delete them.
And say, okay, no, there's noway you can trace me now.
But I publish with so manyoutlet media that a lot of
(19:28):
things I have no control overwhat happens to them.
And that and and and andaccepting that and just kind of
relinquishing that desire tocontrol that narrative.
I think it was very powerful.
I I think it was like a greatway to get from being terrified
of putting myself out there to,okay, well, I'm there.
(19:50):
What's next?
Gabe Nathan (19:52):
And what an evolution.
Um, because there can be suchfear about giving a creative
thing, giving control.
of that over to an editor or apublisher or to the public.
But you really went on ajourney where you found you were
(20:13):
able to uh wrestle with thatinternally and grow and evolve
and be comfortable and confidentand just say, here's here it
is.
Take it or leave it.
And I that's just it's sowonderful.
And I'm so glad that you foundus um and that you gave us two
(20:36):
beautiful pieces that havemeaning and resonance and that
are hopeful and helpful.
And I don't know it just itjust means a lot to me.
So I just wanted to thank youfor that.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (20:50):
No and thank you.
I mean I I I appreciate thespace.
I I you know and and I thinkyou built a great community and
and hopefully as I was sayingthe right people will see them
and the right people willresonate with them just as I
have with other people's workand and that's what we can do.
Gabe Nathan (21:08):
Did you have any trepidation about coming to us
for the first time um with apiece about your mental health?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (21:16):
Do you remember what that was like for
you not not really because itwas very like a stream of
consciousness based and I justknew I knew what just because I
was going through it at thatpoint in time I just needed to
to put it out there.
Like I just knew it would helpme.
(21:36):
I just knew it would uh I guessmaybe in the backbone I didn't
think okay what will peoplethink or whatever but no I just
knew it was the right thing todo.
And and it's one of thosepieces that come to you you know
like it happened to me actuallynot too long ago with a I also
(21:59):
write lyrics for music and I wasjust walking around and I
stumble upon this scene and Iget home and I feel the need to
write a song based on that scenethat unfolded.
And I sent it to a friend ofsome musician and it was a very
serendipitous thing where it wasdirectly related to an album he
(22:20):
was working on.
And it you know if I hadn'tlistened to it and taken time to
do it and this greatcollaboration and and and and
and beautiful piece thatresulted wouldn't have happened.
And I think it was very similaractually it was just something
that served its purpose and itit was easier to do it than to
(22:42):
not do it.
You know what I mean?
Gabe Nathan (22:46):
And I'm I'm glad that you did and it's it's
talking about something that weneed to talk about uh as as
human beings and as men inparticular.
And I'm talking about suicideand and you know related to that
we know that men um are threetimes as likely than women to
(23:09):
die by suicide.
And part of the reason for thatis they're more likely to use
firearms, which of course ifyou're uh using a firearm you're
probably not going to come backfrom that.
So the the outcome is going tobe more fatal um most of the
time.
And the we just need to betalking about it.
(23:32):
And I was thinking about thethree suicides that you
mentioned um at the top of theshow and what you were saying
about them that you know theseguys appear to have everything
and you know how could uh howcould suicide have touched them?
(23:53):
And I guess a takeaway that Iwanted to touch on is that
mental illness, depression,suicide doesn't give a shit
about how much money you have inthe bank.
It doesn't give a shit abouthow handsome you are or what
kind of car you drive or whoyou're in a relationship with.
(24:15):
None of that stuff mattersbecause the truth is about
suicide is that nobody isinvincible and everybody anybody
can be at risk for taking theirown life no matter what their
lives look like on paper or orwhat their forward facing life
(24:37):
looks like on social media or orwhatever.
It can happen to any of us.
And that's that's one thingthat I wanted to be sure that I
said about suicide here.
And I I'm curious to hear fromyou about from your life
experience and your perspectivewhat do you what do you want
(25:01):
people to know about suicidalityabout feeling suicidal about
that mindset.
What do you want to share aboutit?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (25:11):
You never know what somebody's going
through um so it's always betternot to judge and it's always
better to if you have an issuewith someone ask thoughtful
questions and see if you can getto the situation especially if
it's somebody you care about.
(25:31):
But on the other hand you knowfrom the side of the person
who's going through it who'sbeen through it you know I mean
uh so I said before one of thetimes it happened to me when I
was not thinking about like a Iwas pretty serious if somebody
looked at my life from theoutside it's like how can this
guy be going to that you know Imean you know lives in a
(25:53):
beautiful apartment seeminglyhas everything figured out you
know young prodigy whatever andI was still thinking of jumping
off that building in thatapartment and I and I think if I
could you know talk to thatperson of myself or and to
(26:14):
anybody who's going through thatbecause I I have had people in
my life who have gone throughthat.
Uh I would say that there arepeople who care about you more
than you think.
And it's very hard to open upand it's very hard to let them
(26:36):
in and it's very hard to youknow because if we've gotten to
that point it's usually becausewe built plenty of walls that uh
but you know slowly we candemolish those walls if you will
but it's not it doesn't happenovernight.
(26:57):
But you know one one day at atime we can realize that we can
actually integrate I guessdifferent aspects of of our life
and we can see that maybe atleast a considerable part of the
narrative we were forming inour head that led us there
(27:20):
wasn't actually true.
Yeah um and I mean I woulddefinitely I had a great
therapist who helped me a lotover a period of time and I was
very lucky to find her and youknow and I it it w it was a
process.
I I'm not gonna say it waseasy.
(27:40):
It requires us to really let uhagain another clichib let go of
of our ego and you knowwhatever we think was so great
or you know whatever but it's itreally takes work.
But I I I think you know Ithought I was alone and I
(28:01):
realized I'm not and I think ifmore people could find it out
and you know even find a littlebit of a a respite through a
book through you know a councilthrough an essay through an
essay hopefully for instanceyeah I mean I remember there was
a book called uh you may haveread it uh Reasons to Stay Alive
(28:26):
by Matt Haig and he talks aboutthis when he went through you
know and and just little nuggetsof wisdom really of somebody
going through a very hard timeand can read something like that
and realize okay well I'm notthe only one going through this
I'm not so that's why I guessit's very important to share
(28:48):
this story is because it's youknow we don't know what what's
behind people's minds and andhearts and you know and and we
may see somebody very veryfamous or that we admire but
they're struggling and and whenwhen when the conversation opens
up I mean in the tennis worldfor instance so many top players
(29:10):
have talked about the mentalissues yeah and I think it's so
important that they do becauseit you know if you're a young
player starting out and youthink oh I want to kill myself
I'm not the best or I don't wantto do this anymore.
And in any field really well Imean what does that really tell
(29:30):
you in the grand scheme ofthings?
Gabe Nathan (29:33):
And and does it is it really a life of that or that
matter so and the more peoplewho are talking the more the
conversation gets normalized andthe more people go, oh okay
it's it's okay to talk aboutthis because so and so who I
admire is talking about it.
It's okay to feel this way it'sokay to give voice to my
(29:53):
feelings.
And it it's the entire reasonbehind why we do what we do.
It's it's literally the wholereason so that people don't feel
like they're alone.
So that they can pull up thatthey they can pull up these
essays and go, oh my God,Javier, oh my God, Miriam oh my
God.
They're all of these people whoare literally telling their
(30:16):
stories so that other people cansay aha them too.
It's not just me.
And um and your your commentabout uh walls about how you
know when we get to the pointwhere we're thinking about
taking their own life, we'veprobably built a lot of walls
around us.
(30:36):
And I think uh if I think aboutthe reason why and I have
definitely done this in my ownlife um I built walls uh under
the delusion that it's toprotect myself.
But really uh when you buildwalls, you're keeping people
(30:57):
out, people who care about you.
And it's only when the wallcomes down uh that people can
come to you and love on you andand let you know what you mean
to them.
If the wall is up you're notgoing to be able to receive any
of that.
You're gonna be inaccessible.
Um and that's a real tragedybecause there are people like
(31:20):
you said there are people whocare um there are people who
want you to stay yeah absolutelyabsolutely um and I I can't
think of a better lead in um toyour essay which I'm I'm so
proud to have on our site um itis called surviving suicidality
(31:42):
to live in a wonderful world andI would love to hear you read
it in your own voice.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (31:49):
It is a wonderful world I said to myself
on what I thought would be mylast walk.
It had only been a few minutessince I had last thought of
ending my life I had prepared myhome for my suicide and set
myself ready to find peace onthe other side whatever that
meant.
I found relief in the prospectof my spirit going back to where
(32:12):
it belonged while my bodysuffered the effects of my
lethal method of choice.
Before I did that however Iwanted to go under one last
round of appreciation for theworld I thought I'd leave
behind.
This had not been the firsttime.
A few years before then I saton the edge of my balcony up on
(32:33):
the 47th floor on one ofToronto's Ritzy glitz
skyscrapers anything could haveknocked me down a strong gust of
wind, one erroneous move, agentle slide.
I was inches away fromplummeting, from transforming
hopes and dreams into brokenbones, torn muscles and
eventually scattered ashes.
(32:55):
I recalled at Toronto nightduring that last walk I also
remember the many times I nearlydied unintentionally like in a
horrendous car accident at 16where the police officers who
attended scene exclaimed howsurprised they were that I had
immersion scatter.
My several episodes withsubstance abuse and its
(33:17):
correspondent reckless behavioreven if I seem to have
accomplished a lot at a shortage there's still a part of me
that seems keen onself-sabotaging.
Occasionally though it is thelight that wins I didn't kill
myself that afternoon cominghome after that walk and that is
(33:38):
the starting point.
People I've spoken with saythat when we're about to die we
regain the capacity to lawpurely all of our fears
resentments skill trips we shedthem they fall away in the face
of death I found that to be verytrue.
Since I was a kid I have beenhighly sensitive.
(34:00):
I absorb the energies of thosearound me and when harnessed
properly these qualities are awonderful asset.
They can help us heal and bethe healer the problem was I
didn't know how to harness themproperly likely because there
was nobody around me that hadlearned how how or what to do
(34:21):
with that with their sensitivityto energy.
So how could they teach someoneto do what they didn't know how
to do themselves I can't blamethem but because of this I
absorbed the values of thesociety around me.
I wanted to be accepted so Ipicked up the cues of what being
accepted would mean I clung towhat everybody expected of me
(34:43):
which had always had to beperfection and as a result
engaged in people pleasingbehaviors.
I didn't know what boundarieswere so it didn't occur to me
that I had the right to set anyhow can I know what I don't know
I don't know about.
As a result nothing I did wasenough.
By the age of 25 I had built aseven figure business I had
(35:07):
traveled the world and made manyfriends around it.
I was seen as a rising starwith bucket loads of talent in
every front athletic, artisticand entrepreneurial and yet I
never felt satisfied I ended uplosing my business due to poor
decisions, partnering with thewrong people, not leading from
(35:27):
within but leading to create animage I wanted others to have of
me and this led me to be indeep death.
When it came to my personallife it wasn't any better.
I ended up in a codependentrelationship where I was afraid
of speaking up for my needs andinstead I switched the pain with
paid sex, alcohol and othersubstances.
(35:48):
I was Jacqueline Hyde, seen asthe wise imperturbable Buddha
yet inside I was falling apartand I headed out to my balcony
to let my body catch up withwhat already was my spiritual
condition.
Inside I was already deadsometime after that strange
(36:10):
mystic force persuaded me towalk back to safety I found a
business card in one bag that Iwas about to discard.
It said something about healingand for some reason the energy
of the card spoke to me Idecided to email this person and
for the next three years shebecame a therapist.
It wasn't always easy assomebody that had grown with
(36:32):
consistential perfectionistattitude learning that I had
issues that I needed to work onwas a tough pill to swallow but
as the adat says uh the only waywas through since I was a child
I had a feeling that I mighthave a certain degree of
clarity.
My confidence would have beenflow sometimes I was on top of
(36:54):
the world where while othertimes I couldn't bring myself to
do anything.
This became more evident as Ibecame a competitive tennis
player as a teenager.
I could play tremendous matchespull out unexpected comebacks
and I won several doublestournaments by taking the lead
and inspiring whoever was mypartner however I was also
(37:16):
capable of having completemeltdowns.
I remember collapsingmid-match, unable to stop my
mind and either exploding inanger or simply succumbing to
indifference the same way a fewprofessional players throw the
towel nowadays.
Why did sometimes I have theenergy to do anything, to
overcome any feet while otherdays I could hardly get out of
(37:39):
beding with my therapist helpedme accept these swings as part
of who I was and to love myselfnot despite it but because of
it.
Working with her I learnedabout boundaries about self-love
about how to accept myself andlet go of harmful people
pleasing patterns.
The following three yearscarried a lot of deep work a
(38:00):
significant amount of tears ofanger and of letting go of
previously in processed pain.
That work I did with mytherapist led me on the path of
self-love growth and healing andthen I began to do the work by
myself.
I developed a routine where Ijournal meditate and engage in
the practice that has largelysaved my life which is the
(38:23):
hopanopono.
The hope is a practicedeveloped by Hakuna Morna
Simeona in Hawaii and itrevolves around reconciliation
and forgiveness.
It's based on four mantras I'msorry please forgive me thank
you I love you through which werestore ourselves to our
original state a state of zero astate of love it has been this
(38:47):
practice that has also allowedme to live one day at a time
shortly after my journey with mytherapist came to an end I met
my girlfriend it was the firstconscious relationship I had
together we did a lot of deephealing working together on
books like Hold Me Tight by SueJohnson and Getting the Love You
(39:10):
Want by Horbel Hendricks andHelen McKelly Hunt through her I
learned how to be vulnerablewith another person and how to
let go of my previouslycodependent patterns to forge a
relationship where twoindependent people can come
together to thrive and help eachother grow.
My girlfriend also possessesdeep intuitive qualities and it
(39:33):
was her who texted me when I washalfway through on what I
thought would be my last walk.
It was not the typicalHollywood like savior message
where somebody goes through anextreme sacrifice to save
somebody else because that isnot what true love is about.
True love as I learned throughthis relationship is about
loving ourselves and othersabout doing the work we need to
(39:56):
do on ourselves so we can helpthe healing process of Those
around us.
It was this that she remindedme of the importance of the work
I was doing and how it helpedthe world, mostly because I was
willing to face my challengesand grow my soul.
On that last walk, I wasmarveling at everything I saw.
(40:17):
The birds, the docks, theclouds, the trees, the way
certain leaves pile up on thesidewalks.
I do live in a beautiful town,San Miguel de Allende in Mexico,
where I came first four yearsago.
It is a town that has changedmy perspective of life.
And if it was supposed to be mylast walk, how was I not going
(40:37):
to enjoy for one last time itsgreat breathtaking streets and
views?
For the first time in a while,I felt joy.
What if I lived this way?
I thought.
Perhaps not everything would beso dreary.
Perhaps I could find a way.
And perhaps I could choose tolive a little longer.
Gabe Nathan (40:59):
Thank you so much for reading that.
And thank you for choosing tolive a little longer.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (41:05):
Thank you.
Thank you for giving providingthe space and and you know.
Yeah.
I'm happy I did.
Gabe Nathan (41:13):
What was it like to go back to that piece and that
that time in your life?
Javier Ortega-Araiza (41:19):
Yeah, well, it's it's very interesting
that it happened just nowbecause that piece was written
in 2021, if I remembercorrectly.
And that was one of the mostdifficult periods really of my
life.
Uh uh in you know, shortlyafter that I left San Miguel for
(41:45):
a while.
I moved to San Diego, livedthree years in San Diego.
And I just got back to SanMiguel four months ago.
Uh and it's been great.
I had never been happier.
So to see it and look back andsee, I mean, what would have
happened if only I had taken adecision?
(42:06):
It's it's it's almost uh Imean, I've uh this past four
months I've actually been in aperiod of deep growth, I would
say.
And I just think this happenedat the right time for me to look
back and appreciate and see,wow, I mean, it's really been a
journey.
Uh, and I'm happy to see,because sometimes when we go
(42:28):
through something difficult,it's easy to hate the place
where it happened, you know.
And in my case, I moved somuch.
It's hard to hate the world.
I mean, if you have a problemeverywhere in the world, the
problem is likely you, you know.
So it's uh so to come back andand just find home here.
No, in the same way I I have, Iguess, everywhere I live, but
(42:49):
just to to be in this statewhere I can read this and see,
well, this this it's been uh anincredible journey, really, with
a lot of ups and downs.
But just to know that I'm here,to know that I'm happy, that
I'm in a good place, it's it'sactually a way of bringing that
(43:09):
narrative full circle, if youwill.
Uh that on on one side, and andalso, you know, uh on the other
side, uh uh on another note.
The person who was my mygirlfriend at that time, who's
somebody a little dealing, shepassed away last year.
(43:30):
Oh I'm sorry.
Uh yeah, you know, I mean, wewere best friends until you know
we weren't together anymore,but we were best friends, and
it's uh it's also a way tobring, you know, as a part of
the of the grief grievingprocess, I guess, to remember
those things in your life.
Uh, but it's yeah, I mean, ifanything, I would like this
(43:58):
piece of somebody who'slistening to say, well, you
know, look at the look at wherethis person was four years ago.
Number one is still here threeyears later.
That's that's alreadysomething.
And then to be in a good place,to be happy, to be building a
business you like, to bebuilding your life you like, to
(44:19):
be around persons, uh aroundpeople you love.
I mean uh uh it it it I I hopeit serves that way.
You know, I hope it serves as aas a way where somebody who
writes their story today canlook back at it in four years
and say, Well, four years ago Iwas here.
Look how far I'm and maybeyou're in the same place
(44:42):
geographically, or life gets youback there, you know, wherever
you are.
But it almost feels like you'rein a different place because
you have a completely differentstate of being.
Gabe Nathan (44:55):
Yeah, you're seeing with new eyes.
It may be the same streets andthe same views and scenery, but
it's you're different.
So you're going to see thingsdifferently.
And uh and this is why we bringpeople back.
This is one of the core uhreasons why we started this
podcast is because we would havethese relationships of people,
(45:17):
one essay, two essays, maybethree essays at the max.
And then we wouldn't hear frompeople again.
And uh so it left me wonderingGod, what's happening with
so-and-so ever so-and-so wrotean essay in 2016.
I wonder how they're doing.
Now we get to know.
You know, now we get to bringpeople back.
And and you know, this is thefirst time I'm seeing you face
(45:40):
to face.
We worked on on your essaystogether, and like uh it's such
a selfishly it's wonderful forme as someone who's been with
this organization since 2014 toconnect with our authors uh in a
new way.
Uh and I I just love that.
Um and also to show people thatyes, an essay or a film, it's a
(46:06):
snapshot in time.
And this is who this person waswhen we hit publish.
And then their life keepsgoing.
And, you know, we always sayrecovery is not linear, right?
It's not just this slowtrajectory up the mountaintop.
And at the mountaintop, there'sa flag that says recovery, and
ah, I'm here.
It's it's very up and down.
(46:27):
And, you know, you used thatphrase to describe the last four
years.
Um, and it's it's kind ofincredible what you've what
you've been through.
And that's what we want tobring to people.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (46:41):
Oh, thank you.
And and again, thank you for Ithink it's a great idea to
create this space for people tocome back and share what's
happened in their lives becauseit can it you know, time it can
help so so many, so many people.
Luke, okay, I read their essay,What Happened to Them.
It's so it's great.
(47:02):
Thanks.
Thanks for creating this.
Gabe Nathan (47:05):
That's my pleasure.
And and it's it's just such ajoy to have you here.
And I guess if you if you hadone parting thought for people
out there who are struggling,especially men, um, they're
struggling with that weight ofthe world on their shoulders,
like you said earlier in theshow, and um maybe contemplating
(47:27):
suicide.
Um, I just want to hear whatyou'd want to what you'd want to
say to these folks.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (47:34):
Yeah, I would say I mean take a little
step.
Start with writing down, ifthat helps, how do you feel?
You know, use whatever tool youfeel comfortable with to find
help.
Uh and gradually, I mean,especially even if you start
journaling, writing, meditating,it will get you to the point
(47:55):
where you can talk to peopleabout it.
It will, you know, it's like itit's hard to s to say, okay,
I'm gonna solve my life tomorrowbecause then it's easy to give
up.
But if we start to make itintentional to okay, I'm uh I'm
angry, I'm this, I'm that.
(48:16):
Why is that?
And it's uh uh if we start tounpack this whether through
journaling, I mean, so I saidthere are many tools that can
that can be of help andeventually ideally having you
know the taking the time uh tohave the conversations that
(48:36):
matter because the people whocare about you will listen.
And you know, one tiny step ata time you look back and it's
like, wow, I I look at all lookat all I did, look at all the
things that scared me that Idid.
And I and instead of trying tobe the person behind the scenes
who could handle everything,because that's I think how a lot
(48:58):
of us have felt at some pointin time, like, oh, you know, I'm
alone, I need to maneuveraround and take care of
everything, you start to leanin, at least that's what
happened to me.
Um, start to lean in furtherinto whatever your world is.
And then everything that Ithought I needed to hide or or
(49:20):
or it starts to dissolve.
And it just becomes a worldwhere I'm more seen, where
people are more where there's nolonger that need to maneuver
behind the scenes to say, oh, Ihave to take care of this
without anybody noticing,because otherwise everybody will
hate me, kind of thing.
Well, no, it's not actuallytrue.
I mean, everybody you know uhwe can quietly let but you know,
(49:46):
gradually let go of thatweight.
We're caring.
And I would say yeah, if ifwe're consistent about it, like
even just writing what we f howwe feel, writing down and taking
action, you know, then and ourlives can can really change.
Gabe Nathan (50:09):
Yeah, and I think to to uh dovetail off what you
were saying about thoughts inour head and our our
perceptions, I think so oftensometimes when people take their
lives, they're succumbing to uhstories that they've told
themselves.
Um nobody would care if I wasgone, everybody hates me anyway,
(50:34):
all I do is fuck things up, um,people would be better off
without me.
All of these lies, they're justsuch horrible, destructive
lies.
And the more uh that we canchange that narrative, um I
think the the healthier we canbe.
Yeah, absolutely.
(50:56):
Uh it was such a pleasure tohave you here.
Thank you so much for takingsome time to talk to us.
I really appreciate it.
Javier Ortega-Araiza (51:03):
No, great to see you as well.
Thank you for creating thisspace once again.
And uh yeah, looking forward tolistening to some more of the
stories.
Gabe Nathan (51:10):
My pleasure.
Take good care.
You as well.
Thank you very much.
Thank you again for joining usin conversation today.
It's beautiful to see theprogression of our contributors.
Thank you so, so much to ourguest today, Javier
Ortega-Araiza, a writer,storyteller, digital nomad, and
(51:32):
serial entrepreneur, andcompetitive tennis and
pickleball player.
We are so grateful to him forspeaking to us from his home in
Mexico.
Before we leave you, we want toremind you to check out our
website, recoverydiaries.org.
There, like this podcast,you'll find additional stories,
(51:52):
videos, and content about mentalhealth, empowerment, and
change.
We look forward to continuingto grow our community.
Thank you so much for being apart of it.
We wouldn't be here withoutyou.
Be sure to join our mailinglist so you never miss a podcast
episode, essay, or film.
I'm Gabe Nathan.
Until next time, take good careof it.
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