June 22, 2025 • 42 mins
Text the show a topic request (or just say hello)
Looking at your life and wondering why you keep falling into the same painful patterns? Schema therapy may hold the key to understanding and ultimately breaking those persistent cycles.
Schema therapy offers a powerful approach to break free from persistent negative patterns by addressing deep-seated beliefs often formed in childhood that continue to shape adult behaviors and relationships. This innovative therapeutic approach integrates cognitive, emotional, and behavioral interventions to heal early wounds and help people develop healthier ways of meeting their core emotional needs.
• Early maladaptive schemas are self-defeating patterns when core emotional needs aren't met
• Core emotional needs include safety, connection, autonomy, self-expression, and healthy limits
• People use three main coping styles with schemas: surrender, avoidance, and overcompensation
• Schemas persist because they're self-reinforcing and deeply embedded in our emotional memory
• Experiential techniques like imagery rescripting help create emotional healing beyond cognitive understanding
• Pattern-breaking behaviors help challenge schemas through new experiences that contradict old beliefs
Text the show to share your thoughts on schema therapy or to suggest topics for future episodes. Check the show notes for details. Together, let's build a community that fosters change.
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Episode Transcript
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Kapri (00:00):
Hello and welcome.
I'm your host, Kapri.
Have you ever found yourselfrepeating the same patterns in
your life, even when you sworethings would be different this
time?
Maybe it's picking the sametype of incompatible partner
over and over, or always feelinga certain insecurity, no matter
how much you achieve.
Why do we do that?
What if I told you there's atherapeutic approach that zeroes
(00:23):
in on those deep, stubbornpatterns and helps you break
free?
Today we're talking aboutschema therapy.
It's a fascinating blend ofpsychology that might just
explain why we get stuck in rutsand, more importantly, how we
can change those lifelongpatterns.
In this episode we'll introduceyou to the concept of schema
(00:43):
therapy in an easy-to-follow way.
We'll cover what schema therapyactually is and how it builds
on more familiar therapies likecognitive behavioral therapy.
We'll talk about what schemasare, especially those pesky
early maladaptive schemas fromchildhood, and how they affect
our feelings, behavior andrelationships, and how they
(01:04):
affect our feelings, behaviorand relationships.
We'll also dig into coreemotional needs we all have them
and how unmet needs when wewere kids can lead to problems
later on.
And, of course, we'll give somerelatable examples of common
schemas and the coping stylespeople use to deal with them,
whether they surrender to them,avoid them or overcompensate.
(01:26):
We'll explore why these schemasare so persistent, why do they
stick around so stubbornly, andwe'll take a peek at how schema
therapy works in practice,including something called
limited reparenting, which Ipromise I'll explain, as well as
the experiential and cognitivetechniques that therapists might
use.
Whether you're completely newto self-help in psychology or
(01:51):
you've dabbled in self-helpbefore, don't worry, we're going
to keep it down to earth intoday's conversation and
hopefully by the end you'll havea good grasp of schema therapy
and maybe even some personalinsights to reflect on or to use
if you are seeking professionalhelp or self-care.
(02:12):
So grab a coffee or yourfavorite drink and get comfy,
and let's get ready to dive inmore in a minute.
Are you ready to make adifference in your community?
In our Speak Out Advocacyseries, we're here to empower
you to use your voice for change.
Whether improving access tomental health care, reducing
stigma or shaping importantsocial policies, this series
(02:33):
provides the tools to create alasting impact.
If advocating for better care,breaking down barriers or
transforming mental healthservices speaks to your heart,
this is the perfect space tolearn and take action.
Do you have a topic you'repassionate about or need support
advocating for yourself orothers?
We'd love to hear from you.
Text the show to share yourthoughts.
(02:54):
Just check the details in theshow notes.
Together, let's build acommunity that fosters change.
Keep enjoying reframing themembrane.
So first things first whatexactly is schema therapy?
You might have heard ofcognitive behavioral therapy or
CBT, which is a popular form oftherapy that focuses on thoughts
and behaviors.
Schema therapy actually grewout of CBT.
(03:16):
It was developed in the 90s bya psychologist, dr Jeffrey Young
, as a way to help people whoweren't fully improving with
standard CBT, especially thosedealing with long-term,
deep-rooted issues likepersonality disorders or chronic
depression.
So schema therapy kept theeffective structure parts of CBT
, but it also added somepowerful new elements.
(03:36):
To go deeper, in fact, it'swhat we call an integrative
therapy, meaning it blends ideasand techniques from several
therapeutic approaches.
Think of schema therapy as akind of best of all worlds
approach.
It integrates the cognitive andbehavioral strategies of CBT
with insights from attachmenttherapy, which looks at how our
(03:58):
early relationships shape us,elements of gestalt therapy,
which can be very experientialand emotion-focused, and even
some psychodynamic ideas, theones that delve into childhood
experiences and unconsciouspatterns.
By combining all of these,schema therapy aims to tackle
(04:19):
problems at a deeper level thancognitive behavioral therapy
alone typically does so.
Unlike traditional CBT, whichoften targets surface level
thoughts such as I had a bad dayat work and I'm thinking
negatively, schema therapy goesunderneath, to address the core
themes that keep popping upthrough a person's life.
For many people, it's notenough to challenge a thought in
(04:42):
the moment.
They might have longstandingemotional wounds from childhood
that kept generating newnegative thoughts and behaviors.
Schema therapy was designed toheal those early wounds and
unmet needs so that the personcan finally break out of
destructive patterns.
So, in simple terms, schematherapy is about identifying the
(05:03):
deep patterns or schemas thatstarted early in our lives and
continue to affect us, and thenusing a mix of techniques so
this could be cognitive,emotional and relational to
change those schemas yourbasement rather than just
mopping up the water every week.
By addressing the root causes,the early experiences and unmet
(05:31):
needs, schema therapy helpspeople create more lasting
change in their thinking,feeling and relationships.
So that's schema therapy in anutshell.
Now I'll mention schemasthroughout our conversation
today.
It's a pretty important word,so we're going to unpack what a
schema is, especially the earlymaladaptive schemas that schema
therapy focuses on.
In everyday terms, a schema islike a mental blueprint or a
(05:53):
theme.
Think of it as a filter in yourmind that helps you organize
information.
We all have schemas that helpus navigate the world, like a
schema for how a typical day atwork goes or a schema for what a
friendship is.
That sounds pretty neutral,right, but in schema therapy,
when we say schema we actuallymean an early maladaptive schema
, which is basically a deeplyingrained negative pattern or
(06:16):
belief that we picked up inchildhood or adolescence and
then carried into adulthood.
An early maladaptive schema isself-defeating in nature.
It's a pattern that causes uspain and problems, yet it's
something we keep replaying.
It might be a belief aboutourselves or the world that
formed when we were very young,often as a way to make sense of
(06:38):
something that was hurtful ormissing in our early environment
.
These schemas are not justthoughts.
They're woven out of memories,emotions and even bodily
sensations from those earlyexperiences.
Over time they solidify into asort of life theme.
For example, a child who wasabandoned or consistently feared
(07:00):
abandonment might develop aschema like people I love will
always leave me fearedabandonment might develop a
schema like people I love willalways leave me.
A child who was harshlycriticized or abused might form
a schema like I'm not worthy oflove or I'm always going to get
hurt by others.
These are broad, sweepingbeliefs, almost like life mottos
, but negative ones thatundermine us.
(07:20):
Now where do these schemas comefrom?
Usually from early experienceswhere our core emotional needs
weren't met.
As children, we all have somebasic emotional needs.
We need safety and security,like knowing that our caregiver
will protect us and be there forus.
We need love, attention andconnection, feeling cared for
(07:44):
and understood.
We also need autonomy and asense of competence, being
allowed to explore, to learn andto feel capable.
We need the freedom to expressour emotions and needs within
healthy limits and to be playfuland spontaneous, and we need
realistic limits like guidanceand discipline, to feel grounded
(08:05):
and learn self-control.
These are often summarized ascore needs like connection,
safety, autonomy,self-expression, spontaneity and
healthy limits.
If these needs are satisfiedreasonably well, we tend to
develop in a healthy way.
But if one or more of theseneeds is chronically unmet,
that's a breeding ground formaladaptive schemas.
(08:28):
Imagine a child who doesn't getthose needs met.
Say, a little person grows upwith parents who are emotionally
distant or unpredictable.
They don't feel safe ornurtured.
One of those core needs islacking.
As a result, they might developa schema of abandonment or
instability, a pervasive feelingthat people who matter won't be
(08:53):
there when they need them.
Or consider another child whois constantly criticized and
told he's not good enough.
His need for acceptance andvalidation is unmet and he might
develop a schema ofdefectiveness or shame,
basically a deep belief thatthere is something wrong with me
or I'm unlovable.
(09:13):
These are just two examples,but there are many such schemas
that can form.
In fact, schema therapyidentifies 18 common early
maladaptive schemas with nameslike abandonment, mistrust,
abuse, failure, social isolation, emotional deprivation and so
on.
(09:34):
Often these schemas are achild's way of coping or
understanding the world whensomething goes wrong.
Kids are egocentric, meaningthey naturally think everything
is about them.
So if a child's needs aren'tmet, they tend to blame
themselves or come up with abelief to explain it.
Mommy is always angry, so maybeI am bad.
(09:55):
There's a seed of adefectiveness schema.
Or dad left us.
It must be that people I lovewill leave me a seed of an
abandonment schema.
Be that people I love willleave me a seed of an
abandonment schema.
These interpretations get lockedin emotionally, especially if
the painful experiences repeat.
By the time we grow up, theschema has become a familiar
story in our minds, even if it'sa painful one.
(10:17):
It's important to note that notevery difficult childhood event
will create a schema.
It depends on many factors,including the child's
temperament and whether therewere other positive influences.
But when negative experiencesare repeated or overwhelming and
our needs constantly aren't met, we adapt by forming these
(10:37):
schemas.
Think of a schema as a scar.
It formed to protect you ormake sense of hurt, but it
lingers long after the woundoccurred.
Now that we know what schemasare and how they originate,
let's talk about how the earlyschemas play out in our adult
lives.
Just because they started inchildhood doesn't mean they stay
(11:00):
quiet in childhood.
Oh no, they love to follow usinto our relationships, our jobs
and even how we feel aboutourselves every day, more in a
minute.
The Reframing the MembraneCrossing Boundaries podcast is
provided solely forinformational and entertainment
purposes.
It is not intended to replaceprofessional medical or mental
health advice, diagnosis ortreatment, nor does it
(11:23):
substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
clinician.
Always consult your physicianbefore deciding about your
physical or mental health.
So what happens when you grow upand you're still carrying one
of those early maladaptiveschemas inside you?
In adulthood?
Schemas act like a pair ofcolored glasses.
They tint the way you see theworld.
(11:44):
When a situation activates aschema, it's like hitting a
psychological nerve that wasalready sensitive.
You might suddenly feel intenseemotions that seem to come out
of nowhere, or you might findyourself reacting in ways that
later make you scratch your headand think why did I do that?
Let's take an example.
Suppose Ash has an abandonmentschema from their childhood.
(12:06):
Maybe one of their parents leftwhen they were young.
As an adult, when Ash enters arelationship, that schema is
lurking in the background.
Now, if their partner simplyhas to work late one night or
doesn't reply to a text for afew hours, ash's schema might
get activated.
They might suddenly feel a waveof panic or sadness out of
(12:27):
proportion to the situation.
It's that old fear that they'regoing to leave me.
In schema therapy terms.
Ash has an emotional buttonthat's been pushed.
Their heart races.
They feel abandoned anddesperate, maybe even angry or
ashamed for feeling so needy.
This is the schema flaring upin the present.
(12:48):
To their partner it might seemlike an overreaction, but to Ash
it feels 100% real andoverwhelming.
It's as if the old wound ofabandonment is open again in
that moment.
Schemas can affect almost anyaspect of life.
They especially love to appearin our relationships so romantic
friendships, even workrelationships because those
(13:10):
often mirror dynamics from ourearly years.
If you have a mistrust or abuseschema, you might constantly
suspect people's motives or findit extremely hard to get close
to anyone, always waiting forbetrayal.
If you have a defectivenessschema, the I am flawed, or bad
belief, you might feel insecureand unworthy around others,
(13:31):
perhaps avoiding intimacybecause you know what?
If someone really gets to knowyou, they'll dislike or reject
you.
Or you might seek out partnerswho criticize you, basically
confirming your schema, becauseunfortunately, we often
gravitate toward what feelsfamiliar, even if it hurts.
Someone with a social isolationschema might feel like they
(13:53):
just don't belong anywhere,leading them to withdraw and
isolate, which then reinforcesthe feeling of being an outsider
.
And it's not just relationships.
Schemas can influence yourcareer and achievements too.
Imagine a person with a failureschema, a belief that I will
fail in everything I do.
Even if this person is capable,they might sabotage
(14:16):
opportunities or shy away fromchallenges at work out of a fear
of failure, thereby neverreaching their potential, which
then confirms to them thatthey're a failure, or consider
someone with an unrelentingstandard schema, a belief that
they must be perfect and meetimpossibly high standards at all
(14:38):
times.
This person might be aperfectionist, pushing
themselves to the brink andeventually burning out, or
feeling chronically stressed.
Coworkers might admire theirdedication, but internally the
person never feels good enoughbecause only 100% perfection
meets the schema's demand.
Essentially, these schemas actlike scripts in the background
(15:01):
of our minds.
When a relevant situationarises, we often play out the
script automatically.
The emotions can be very strong,like ashes, panic or deep shame
or intense anger, becausethey're tied to old, powerful
memories, and the behaviors thatcome out whether it's clinging
to a partner, avoidingconfrontation or working
(15:23):
yourself to death often end upmaintaining the schema's hold on
you.
Here's the really tricky partSchemas tend to become
self-fulfilling prophecies.
We might unintentionally behavein ways that make that feared
outcome more likely, thusreinforcing the schema.
(15:43):
For example, someone with anabandonment schema like Ash
might become so anxious andclingy with their partner,
calling them constantly, needingrepeated reassurance, that the
partner feels smothered andpulls back, possibly even leaves
the relationship.
This, of course, confirms Ash'sworst fear.
(16:03):
See, everyone leaves me, inthat case, the schema kind of
guided behavior, their intenseneediness that helped bring
about the very result theydreaded.
Another person with the sameschema might do the opposite
push their partner away first ortest them harshly to see if
they really care, which alsostrains the relationship.
Either way, the outcome ends upthe same the schema is
(16:27):
reinforced.
It's a vicious cycle.
The schema gets activated, leadsto strong feelings and usually
some maladaptive reaction, andthat reaction often produces
consequences that feed rightback into the schema's core
belief.
Living under the influence of astrong schema can be really
painful.
It can cause chronic anxiety,depression or anger.
(16:51):
Over years, these patterns caneven contribute to mental health
disorders.
In fact, research and clinicalobservations show that
persistent schemas can lead toongoing problems like depression
, anxiety and personalitydisorders, because they create a
cycle of negative thoughts andbehaviors that is hard to escape
without help.
It's like being stuck on amerry-go-round and not knowing
(17:15):
how to jump off.
So if you're thinking, yep,I've got a few of those patterns
myself, you're definitely notalone.
The next logical question is howdo we usually cope with these
schemas?
Once we have them, peopleactually cope in pretty
predictable ways.
Schema therapy points out threemain coping styles and chances
(17:35):
are you'll recognize at leastone of them in yourself.
When a schema gets activatedand those uncomfortable feelings
surge up, we instinctively tryto cope with them.
In schema therapy we talk aboutthree basic coping styles that
people use in dealing with aschema Surrender, avoidance and
(17:58):
overcompensation.
Don't worry about the jargon,these are actually intuitive
once you get the idea.
So let's break it down one byone, and we'll use a concrete
example or two to make it clear.
Surrender this means giving into the schema and behaving as if
it's true.
It's like the schema is theboss and you just go along with
(18:18):
what it says about you or others.
For instance, if you have adefectiveness schema I am
unlovable, I'm unbroken andyou're in surrender mode, you
might tolerate a lot of badtreatment from others because
deep down you feel you deserveit.
You surrender to that feelingof worthlessness.
An example is someone who staysin an emotionally abusive
(18:41):
relationship, not assertingthemselves, basically confirming
the schema's message that thisis all I am worth.
In the case of an abandonmentschema, surrender might look
like clinking to whoever isclose out of fear, or repeatedly
choosing partners who areunstable or dismissive,
essentially playing out theabandonment over and over
(19:04):
because it feels inevitable.
Surrendering is a passivestance.
The person doesn't fight theschema.
They accept the pain as justthe way of life.
The next one is avoidance, andthis style is all about escaping
or avoiding anything that mightactivate the schema.
If your schema is neveractivated, then you won't feel
(19:26):
that pain.
That's the often unconsciouslogic here.
Using the examples, someonewith an abandonment schema might
avoid serious relationshipsaltogether.
If I don't get close to anyone,I won't be hurt.
That's the thinking.
They might keep people at arm'slength or in relationships at
the first sign of difficulty.
(19:47):
A person with a defectivenessschema might avoid situations
where they fear their flaws willbe exposed.
Maybe they shy away from socialgatherings, avoid intimacy or
even use substances, food ordistractions to numb the
feelings when the schema isactivated.
Another common avoidance tacticis emotional withdrawal, like
(20:11):
shutting down emotionally orrefusing to think about certain
memories or topics because thosemight bring up the schema.
Avoidance can give short-termrelief.
You don't confront the fear inthe moment, but of course it
limits your life and keeps youfrom challenging the schema.
If you always avoid trust andcloseness, you never get the
(20:32):
chance to disconfirm that peoplecan be loyal and loving.
Then there's overcompensation.
This is the fight response.
You fight back against theschema by doing the extreme
opposite of what it suggests.
On the surface this sounds morepositive, but it can get pretty
tricky pretty quickly.
Overcompensation often meansovercorrecting in a way that can
(20:56):
be maladaptive.
For example, someone with anunderlying defectiveness schema
might swing to the opposite andact as if they are superior or
perfect.
To cover their deep feelings ofinferiority, they might brag,
show off or becomeultra-competitive, trying to be
superhuman so that no one canever point out a flaw.
(21:16):
Internally they still feeldefective, but they hide it
behind a mask of perfection orarrogance.
In the case of an abandonmentschema, an overcompensator might
push others away first to avoidany dependency.
Picture someone who says Idon't need anybody, I'm a rock,
(21:38):
I'm an island.
They might date multiple peopleand keep it very casual, or
become overly independent andrefuse help, all to avoid ever
feeling dependent or abandoned.
Another overcompensation mightbe trying to control or test
partners.
I'll make them prove they won'tleave constantly, which
(21:59):
ironically can strainrelationships.
Overcompensation is basically away of saying I'll show that
schema is wrong by going to theopposite extreme.
But because it's extreme andnot a balanced, genuine behavior
.
It doesn't truly heal theschema.
In fact, all three of thesecoping styles surrender,
avoidance and overcompensationusually end up reinforcing the
(22:22):
schema in the long run.
All right, so to sum this up andcement this, let's briefly
revisit our characters.
Ash, with their abandonmentschema.
We can see that if theysurrender, they become clingy
and anxious.
If they avoid, they distantthemselves or leave
relationships early.
And if they overcompensate,they might pretend not to care
(22:43):
or even provoke a breakup ontheir own terms.
All roads sadly lead back tofeeling abandoned.
Likewise, for someone with adefectiveness schema,
surrendering might meanaccepting blame or criticism all
the time.
Avoidance might look likehiding your true self and
avoiding close connections.
And overcompensation might meanstriving to be perfect and
(23:05):
never admitting any weakness.
Different behaviors, sameunderlying pain.
Most of us use a mix of thesecoping styles in different
situations, or we might leanheavily on one.
None of them actually resolvethe schema, they just manage it,
and often poorly.
Recognizing your go-to copingstyle can be a big eye-opener.
(23:27):
You might realize oh, oh,that's why I always do x when I
start feeling y.
Schema therapy helps people seethese patterns clearly and then
gradually shift to healthiercoping.
Now you might be wondering ifthese schemas and their coping
behaviors are so entrenched, whyare they so hard to change?
(23:47):
Why can't we just snap out ofit once we notice it?
And that's a great question.
Understanding the stubbornnature of schemas is key to
appreciating why schema therapycan be so useful.
If a schema is basically afalse or unhealthy belief, why
don't we just update it like weupdate an old software program?
(24:08):
Well, the short answer is thatschemas are sneaky, they're deep
and they're self-perpetuating.
They're hard to change forseveral reasons.
First, remember that schemasusually form very early in life.
They've been with us for a longtime, often since childhood or
adolescence.
By the time we reach adulthood,a schema has had years and
(24:28):
years to reinforce itself.
It becomes part of how weautomatically think and feel.
Schemas are extremely stableand enduring themes that we
carry with us and build uponthroughout life.
We tend to notice informationthat confirms our schemas and
discount information thatcontradicts them.
(24:51):
It's a bit like having abuilt-in confirmation bias.
If you deeply believe I'munlovable, you might dismiss
compliments or love you receive.
They're just being nice.
Oh, that doesn't count.
Yet you'll dwell on any slightor criticism as proof that your
belief is true.
Over years, you collect amountain of evidence in your
(25:11):
mind supporting the schema andany evidence to the contrary
slides off like Teflon.
Now we just discussed the copingstyles we often use to keep
these schemas intact.
If you avoid anything thatchallenges your schema, how will
you ever learn a differentbelief?
If you surrender to it, you'reliving it out without protest.
If you overcompensate, youmight achieve temporary wins,
(25:34):
that is, feeling in control orsuperior, but you're not really
healing the wound, you'recovering it up.
Many times our coping behaviorsactually lead to outcomes that
reinforce the schema.
So the example I gave ofsomeone within abandonment fear,
acting in ways that push othersaway, thus ending up abandoned,
and quote, proving the schemaright.
(25:56):
Or think of someone with amistrust schema who trusts no
one.
They may end up alone andwithout support, which tends to
confirm that people aren't therefor you.
Support which tends to confirmthat people aren't there for you
.
This self-fulfilling prophecynature of schemas makes them
very sticky.
Another reason schemas persistis that, ironically, they can
(26:18):
become part of our comfort zone.
Now, comfort is a strange wordbecause schemas usually cause
discomfort.
Right, but it's a familiardiscomfort.
It's the devil.
We know If you felt worthlessor anxious or angry for most of
your life.
Feeling genuinely happy ortrusting can actually be scary
because it's unfamiliar.
(26:41):
People sometimes unconsciouslysabotage positive changes
because a part of them isaccustomed to the old narrative.
There's a sense of this is justwho I am.
The schema feels like it's partof your identity.
Letting it go can be asfrightening as losing a piece of
yourself or stepping into awhole new world without your
(27:04):
usual defenses.
Additionally, schemas are oftentied to strong emotions and
memories.
Just thinking your way out ofthem, like telling yourself I
know not everyone will abandonme, might not work when your
emotional brain is convincedotherwise.
Under stress or when anactivator hits, the emotional
memory can overwhelm therational thoughts.
(27:26):
This is why purely cognitiveapproaches sometimes fall short.
You might logically understandthat a relief is false, but
still feel it to be true deepdown.
So all of these factorslong-term reinforcement,
self-fulfilling, coping, comfortzone, familiarity and emotional
weight make early maladaptiveschemas very persistent.
(27:50):
They don't usually change justwith insight or time.
It often takes a concertedeffort, usually in therapy, to
restructure these schemas.
In fact, people often need acorrective experience to
override those old patterns.
This is where schema therapycomes in with its toolkit.
So let's talk about that for abit.
(28:10):
How does schema therapyactually help someone change a
schema and what does it looklike in practice?
The good news is, even thoughschemas are tough, they can be
changed with professional help.
Schema therapy offers a reallycomprehensive approach to
healing these deep patterns.
It's not a quick fix, but it isa powerful process.
So let's look at what typicallyhappens in a therapeutic
(28:31):
environment and some of the kindof techniques that are used.
One is identifying your schema.
So first a therapist would helpyou identify any specific
schemas.
This might involvequestionnaires, guided
reflection or just talkingthrough life history and
recurring difficulties.
Lot of times just putting aname to your schema can be
relieving like oh so I have anabandonment schema and a failure
(28:55):
schema.
That's why these things keepcoming up.
It gives you a framework tounderstand your struggles in a
non-judgmental way.
You realize it's not just youbeing irrational, it's a schema
that formed for a reason.
So building a supportivetherapeutic relationship is a
great tool for healing.
Remember those unmet coreemotional needs.
(29:16):
The therapy setting becomes aplace to start meeting those
needs in a safe way.
The therapist does something inschema therapy, often called
limited reparenting.
Now that doesn't mean that thetherapist actually becomes your
parent and it has to stay withinhealthy professional boundaries
.
But the idea is that thetherapist takes on a kind of
(29:36):
supportive, caring role, muchlike a good parent or caregiver
would.
They provide warmth, empathyand validation, and they also
provide guidance and set limitswhen needed Basically, a healthy
parental figure.
If you've been cravingacceptance your whole life, the
therapist is consistentlyaccepting of you.
If you never had anyone standup for you, the therapist might
(29:59):
be very protective of yourwell-being.
Over time, this reparentingexperience can start to fill
some of the void from childhood.
It's considered limited becauseit happens only within sessions
and within appropriate limits,but it's incredibly healing.
Clients often say they feellike for the first time someone
is giving them the unconditionalsupport they always needed.
(30:22):
Researchers found that thisaspect the strong bond and
corrective emotional experienceis a big factor in schema
therapy's effectiveness.
Schema therapy isn't just abouttalking about your childhood in
a detached way.
It often involves experientialexercises to emotionally process
those memories.
One powerful technique iscalled imagery re-scripting.
(30:45):
The therapist might guide youinto a visualization of a
painful childhood memory.
For instance, you might pictureyour six-year-old self crying
alone in your room after beingyelled at.
Then the therapist helps yourewrite the script of that
memory.
Maybe your adult self or thetherapist in the imagery enters
the scene, comforts the childand tells off the adult who was
(31:06):
hurting you, ensuring the childis safe.
This might sound a bit odd butit can be very powerful
emotionally.
Clients often feel a hugerelease or a sense of resolution
when their inner child receivesthe care and protection they
never got back.
Then it's like giving yourbrain a new experience to
associate with that old herd,which helps diminish the
(31:27):
schema's intensity.
Another experiential method isthe empty chair technique
brought from just-taught therapy.
Here you might have an imagineddialogue between parts of
yourself.
For example, you put yourschema or maybe an internalized
critical parent voice in onechair and you or another part,
(31:48):
like your healthy adult side,sit in another.
Then you have it out.
Maybe you as the healthy part,tell your critical voice why
you're not going to believe I'mworthless anymore, or you stand
up for the hurt child part ofyou.
It sounds role play-ish, butdoing this in a guided way with
a supportive therapist can leadto breakthroughs.
Suddenly you realize wait, Idon't actually agree with that
(32:10):
cruel voice anymore.
These experiential exerciseshelp to link new positive
emotional experiences to thoseold schemas, which is essential
for deep change.
Of course, schema therapy alsouses a lot of classic cognitive
strategies, much like CBT does.
This means you and thetherapist will identify the
(32:31):
specific beliefs that make upyour schema Say the belief that
I'm unlovable or I always willbe abandoned and then you'll
challenge and test those beliefs.
You might examine evidence forand against them, come up with
healthier thoughts to replacethem and slowly work on
internalizing a new belief.
For example, I am worthy oflove and I can find people who
(32:55):
will stay with me.
Therapists might give homework,like journaling whenever a
schema is activated and writingdown a more balanced response,
or reading flashcards oraffirmations to yourself that
remind you of your new, healthybeliefs when you feel the old
schema is firing up.
The cognitive piece isimportant because it helps
(33:16):
restructure the intellectualunderstanding of things.
You learn to spot thedistortions caused by the schema
and correct them over time.
However, cognitive techniquesalone aren't enough for schemas,
since the emotional side is sostrong, which is why they're
combined with the experientialand relational methods.
Finally, schema therapy alsolooks at changing behaviors that
(33:39):
stem from schemas.
This is sometimes calledpattern breaking.
It's a kind of ultimate goal tostart doing things differently
in real life, not just in yourhead or heart.
If you always withdraw when youfeel criticized, perhaps due to
a defectiveness schema, thetherapist might help you
gradually practice notwithdrawing, maybe voicing how
(34:03):
you feel to a trusted person orcontinuing to stay engaged in a
situation.
A If you overcompensate bybeing aggressive whenever you
feel vulnerable, therapy willfocus on helping you notice that
and try more measured responses.
Often gradual exposure to whatyou fear can help disprove the
(34:26):
schema.
For example, someone with asubjugation schema, where they
always put others' needs firstand ignore their own, might
practice saying no or expressinga preference in small steps and
learn that others don'tactually hate them for it.
In fact, their relationshipsimprove, as does their ability
to establish and maintainhealthy boundaries.
(34:48):
Therapists may give homework orexperiments for the client to
try between sessions, like ask afriend for a small favor this
week or do something nice foryourself and note how it feels,
depending on the schema.
Over time these new behaviorscreate new evidence and
experiences that contradict theschema's message and you
consistently behave in ahealthier way and see the sky
(35:10):
doesn't fall.
The schema's grip loosens.
So throughout this process.
The therapist is like a coachand an ally.
Schema therapy can beemotionally intense at times
because we're dealing withlong-held pain, but it's also
incredibly validating.
A schema therapist often willexplicitly tell you that what
(35:32):
happened to you wasn't yourfault and that the feelings of
the child part of you are valid,while also helping you learn to
meet those needs now inhealthier, adult ways.
They blend compassion withencouragement for you to change
the patterns that have beenhurting you.
The ultimate goal is to getyour core emotional needs met in
(35:52):
a healthy way now as an adult,to reparent yourself with the
therapist's help, so to speak,so that you are no longer at the
mercy of those schemas.
As therapy progresses, peopleusually begin to notice their
schemas getting weaker.
Maybe a situation that used toactivate a 10 out of 10
abandonment pain now onlyactivates a 5 out of 10 and you
(36:13):
recover faster.
You start to question theschema when it comes up.
Is it really true that I'mdefective or is this just that
old story again?
You also develop a stronger,healthy, adult side.
That's the part of you that cannurture your vulnerable side,
set limits on the punitive orimpulsive side and basically run
(36:36):
your life in a balanced way Inschema therapy terms.
The healthy adult mode growsand the maladaptive schema modes
shrink.
The end result is that you feelmore secure, empowered and
emotionally fulfilled.
You're not completely at thewhim of those old patterns.
You can catch them and responddifferently.
(36:56):
It's worth noting that schematherapy is often a longer-term
therapy, especially for complexor deeply rooted issues.
It's frequently used forconditions like borderline
personality disorder, chronicdepression and complex trauma,
and has been quite successful inthose realms.
But it's also applicable toanyone who feels stuck in
(37:19):
recurring emotional orrelational patterns, which,
honestly, is most of us to somedegree.
The combination of insight,emotion-focused healing and
behavior change makes it apowerful approach to really
transform those early schemas.
We've covered a lot of groundtoday, from what schemas are and
how they mess with our lives tothe innovative ways schema
(37:42):
therapy tries to address them.
So let's wrap up with a quickrecap and some final thoughts.
So, to sum up today'sexploration, schema therapy is
an integrative, depth-focusedtherapy that helps people
identify and change the coreschemas, which are the deep
patterns that often start inchildhood and continue to affect
(38:03):
their adult life.
We learned that earlymaladaptive schemas are like
entrenched beliefs or emotionalthemes such as I'll be abandoned
, I'm not good enough or I can'ttrust anyone, which arise when
our core emotional needs forsafety, love, acceptance,
autonomy, etc.
Aren't met.
When we're young, these schemascan powerfully shape our
(38:25):
feelings, behaviors andrelationships, leading to cycles
of pain and self-sabotage.
People cope with schemas in afew common ways by surrendering
to them.
So this is giving in to thepattern or avoiding them,
blocking out activators orovercompensating, fighting the
schema by going to the oppositeextreme.
(38:48):
Unfortunately, those copingstyles can keep us stuck and
make the schemas even morepersistent.
We also talked about why theseschemas stick around.
They're built on years ofexperiences, reinforced by our
behaviors and perceptions andtied to big emotions, so they
don't just vanish on their own.
That's why schema therapymethods come in Through a strong
(39:12):
healing relationship with thetherapist, limited reparenting,
for example, experientialexercises like imagery that heal
old wounds, cognitivetechniques to rethink and
reframe the old beliefs, andpracticing new behaviors.
Schema therapy works to meetthose unmet needs and ultimately
(39:32):
challenge the life patternsthat have been causing us
problems.
It's about growing that healthypart of you that can nurture
the hurt child inside and makechoices that lead to a more
fulfilling life, rather thanbeing driven by the pain of the
past.
I hope this discussion has beenenlightening and maybe sparked
some personal reflection.
(39:53):
You might be thinking aboutyour own life now.
Are there any patterns thatring a bell?
Perhaps certain activators thatsend you into a tailspin, or a
type of scenario you always findyourself in?
It can be a useful exercise tojust notice these and wonder
could this be a schema at work?
For example, the next time youfeel a really strong emotional
(40:17):
reaction that seems out ofproportion, you might step back
and think is this reactioncoming from a younger place in
me?
What's the story I'm tellingmyself right now that awareness
alone is a great first step.
Of course, knowing about schemasis just the beginning.
Changing them usually takestime and often some help.
(40:39):
If you identified with anythingwe talked about today, you
might consider learning more onschema therapy or even reaching
out to mental healthprofessionals who know this
approach.
You can find resources in theshow notes.
So the takeaway message ishopeful.
No matter how long you've beenstuck in a negative pattern,
(40:59):
change is possible.
The early chapters of your lifedon't have to define the rest
of your story.
Schema therapy, in essence, isabout giving yourself a chance
to rewrite those old scripts, toprovide that little child
inside you what they needed andnever got, and to watch how that
transforms your present.
It's hard work, but many findit profoundly rewarding.
(41:22):
Thank you for joining me in thisdeep dive into schema therapy.
It's a complex topic, but webroke it down today.
Hopefully you found it engagingand learned something new about
yourself or others, if nothingelse, next time you catch
yourself in one of those why amI like this moments?
(41:43):
You might remember this talkand consider that a schema could
be in play and that there areways to heal it.
Feel free to share this episodewith anyone who might find it
helpful and, as always, Iencourage you to stay curious
and compassionate towardyourself.
We all have our schemas andpatterns, but with understanding
and the right support, we canchange them.
Until next time, take care ofyourself and try to meet those
(42:05):
core emotional needs, becauseyou deserve it.
Thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome.
I'm your host, Kapri.
Have you ever found yourselfrepeating the same patterns in
your life, even when you sworethings would be different this
time?
Maybe it's picking the sametype of incompatible partner
over and over, or always feelinga certain insecurity, no matter
how much you achieve.
Why do we do that?
What if I told you there's atherapeutic approach that zeroes
(00:23):
in on those deep, stubbornpatterns and helps you break
free?
Today we're talking aboutschema therapy.
It's a fascinating blend ofpsychology that might just
explain why we get stuck in rutsand, more importantly, how we
can change those lifelongpatterns.
In this episode we'll introduceyou to the concept of schema
(00:43):
therapy in an easy-to-follow way.
We'll cover what schema therapyactually is and how it builds
on more familiar therapies likecognitive behavioral therapy.
We'll talk about what schemasare, especially those pesky
early maladaptive schemas fromchildhood, and how they affect
our feelings, behavior andrelationships, and how they
(01:04):
affect our feelings, behaviorand relationships.
We'll also dig into coreemotional needs we all have them
and how unmet needs when wewere kids can lead to problems
later on.
And, of course, we'll give somerelatable examples of common
schemas and the coping stylespeople use to deal with them,
whether they surrender to them,avoid them or overcompensate.
(01:26):
We'll explore why these schemasare so persistent, why do they
stick around so stubbornly, andwe'll take a peek at how schema
therapy works in practice,including something called
limited reparenting, which Ipromise I'll explain, as well as
the experiential and cognitivetechniques that therapists might
use.
Whether you're completely newto self-help in psychology or
(01:51):
you've dabbled in self-helpbefore, don't worry, we're going
to keep it down to earth intoday's conversation and
hopefully by the end you'll havea good grasp of schema therapy
and maybe even some personalinsights to reflect on or to use
if you are seeking professionalhelp or self-care.
(02:12):
So grab a coffee or yourfavorite drink and get comfy,
and let's get ready to dive inmore in a minute.
Are you ready to make adifference in your community?
In our Speak Out Advocacyseries, we're here to empower
you to use your voice for change.
Whether improving access tomental health care, reducing
stigma or shaping importantsocial policies, this series
(02:33):
provides the tools to create alasting impact.
If advocating for better care,breaking down barriers or
transforming mental healthservices speaks to your heart,
this is the perfect space tolearn and take action.
Do you have a topic you'repassionate about or need support
advocating for yourself orothers?
We'd love to hear from you.
Text the show to share yourthoughts.
(02:54):
Just check the details in theshow notes.
Together, let's build acommunity that fosters change.
Keep enjoying reframing themembrane.
So first things first whatexactly is schema therapy?
You might have heard ofcognitive behavioral therapy or
CBT, which is a popular form oftherapy that focuses on thoughts
and behaviors.
Schema therapy actually grewout of CBT.
(03:16):
It was developed in the 90s bya psychologist, dr Jeffrey Young
, as a way to help people whoweren't fully improving with
standard CBT, especially thosedealing with long-term,
deep-rooted issues likepersonality disorders or chronic
depression.
So schema therapy kept theeffective structure parts of CBT
, but it also added somepowerful new elements.
(03:36):
To go deeper, in fact, it'swhat we call an integrative
therapy, meaning it blends ideasand techniques from several
therapeutic approaches.
Think of schema therapy as akind of best of all worlds
approach.
It integrates the cognitive andbehavioral strategies of CBT
with insights from attachmenttherapy, which looks at how our
(03:58):
early relationships shape us,elements of gestalt therapy,
which can be very experientialand emotion-focused, and even
some psychodynamic ideas, theones that delve into childhood
experiences and unconsciouspatterns.
By combining all of these,schema therapy aims to tackle
(04:19):
problems at a deeper level thancognitive behavioral therapy
alone typically does so.
Unlike traditional CBT, whichoften targets surface level
thoughts such as I had a bad dayat work and I'm thinking
negatively, schema therapy goesunderneath, to address the core
themes that keep popping upthrough a person's life.
For many people, it's notenough to challenge a thought in
(04:42):
the moment.
They might have longstandingemotional wounds from childhood
that kept generating newnegative thoughts and behaviors.
Schema therapy was designed toheal those early wounds and
unmet needs so that the personcan finally break out of
destructive patterns.
So, in simple terms, schematherapy is about identifying the
(05:03):
deep patterns or schemas thatstarted early in our lives and
continue to affect us, and thenusing a mix of techniques so
this could be cognitive,emotional and relational to
change those schemas yourbasement rather than just
mopping up the water every week.
By addressing the root causes,the early experiences and unmet
(05:31):
needs, schema therapy helpspeople create more lasting
change in their thinking,feeling and relationships.
So that's schema therapy in anutshell.
Now I'll mention schemasthroughout our conversation
today.
It's a pretty important word,so we're going to unpack what a
schema is, especially the earlymaladaptive schemas that schema
therapy focuses on.
In everyday terms, a schema islike a mental blueprint or a
(05:53):
theme.
Think of it as a filter in yourmind that helps you organize
information.
We all have schemas that helpus navigate the world, like a
schema for how a typical day atwork goes or a schema for what a
friendship is.
That sounds pretty neutral,right, but in schema therapy,
when we say schema we actuallymean an early maladaptive schema
, which is basically a deeplyingrained negative pattern or
(06:16):
belief that we picked up inchildhood or adolescence and
then carried into adulthood.
An early maladaptive schema isself-defeating in nature.
It's a pattern that causes uspain and problems, yet it's
something we keep replaying.
It might be a belief aboutourselves or the world that
formed when we were very young,often as a way to make sense of
(06:38):
something that was hurtful ormissing in our early environment
.
These schemas are not justthoughts.
They're woven out of memories,emotions and even bodily
sensations from those earlyexperiences.
Over time they solidify into asort of life theme.
For example, a child who wasabandoned or consistently feared
(07:00):
abandonment might develop aschema like people I love will
always leave me fearedabandonment might develop a
schema like people I love willalways leave me.
A child who was harshlycriticized or abused might form
a schema like I'm not worthy oflove or I'm always going to get
hurt by others.
These are broad, sweepingbeliefs, almost like life mottos
, but negative ones thatundermine us.
(07:20):
Now where do these schemas comefrom?
Usually from early experienceswhere our core emotional needs
weren't met.
As children, we all have somebasic emotional needs.
We need safety and security,like knowing that our caregiver
will protect us and be there forus.
We need love, attention andconnection, feeling cared for
(07:44):
and understood.
We also need autonomy and asense of competence, being
allowed to explore, to learn andto feel capable.
We need the freedom to expressour emotions and needs within
healthy limits and to be playfuland spontaneous, and we need
realistic limits like guidanceand discipline, to feel grounded
(08:05):
and learn self-control.
These are often summarized ascore needs like connection,
safety, autonomy,self-expression, spontaneity and
healthy limits.
If these needs are satisfiedreasonably well, we tend to
develop in a healthy way.
But if one or more of theseneeds is chronically unmet,
that's a breeding ground formaladaptive schemas.
(08:28):
Imagine a child who doesn't getthose needs met.
Say, a little person grows upwith parents who are emotionally
distant or unpredictable.
They don't feel safe ornurtured.
One of those core needs islacking.
As a result, they might developa schema of abandonment or
instability, a pervasive feelingthat people who matter won't be
(08:53):
there when they need them.
Or consider another child whois constantly criticized and
told he's not good enough.
His need for acceptance andvalidation is unmet and he might
develop a schema ofdefectiveness or shame,
basically a deep belief thatthere is something wrong with me
or I'm unlovable.
(09:13):
These are just two examples,but there are many such schemas
that can form.
In fact, schema therapyidentifies 18 common early
maladaptive schemas with nameslike abandonment, mistrust,
abuse, failure, social isolation, emotional deprivation and so
on.
(09:34):
Often these schemas are achild's way of coping or
understanding the world whensomething goes wrong.
Kids are egocentric, meaningthey naturally think everything
is about them.
So if a child's needs aren'tmet, they tend to blame
themselves or come up with abelief to explain it.
Mommy is always angry, so maybeI am bad.
(09:55):
There's a seed of adefectiveness schema.
Or dad left us.
It must be that people I lovewill leave me a seed of an
abandonment schema.
Be that people I love willleave me a seed of an
abandonment schema.
These interpretations get lockedin emotionally, especially if
the painful experiences repeat.
By the time we grow up, theschema has become a familiar
story in our minds, even if it'sa painful one.
(10:17):
It's important to note that notevery difficult childhood event
will create a schema.
It depends on many factors,including the child's
temperament and whether therewere other positive influences.
But when negative experiencesare repeated or overwhelming and
our needs constantly aren't met, we adapt by forming these
(10:37):
schemas.
Think of a schema as a scar.
It formed to protect you ormake sense of hurt, but it
lingers long after the woundoccurred.
Now that we know what schemasare and how they originate,
let's talk about how the earlyschemas play out in our adult
lives.
Just because they started inchildhood doesn't mean they stay
(11:00):
quiet in childhood.
Oh no, they love to follow usinto our relationships, our jobs
and even how we feel aboutourselves every day, more in a
minute.
The Reframing the MembraneCrossing Boundaries podcast is
provided solely forinformational and entertainment
purposes.
It is not intended to replaceprofessional medical or mental
health advice, diagnosis ortreatment, nor does it
(11:23):
substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
clinician.
Always consult your physicianbefore deciding about your
physical or mental health.
So what happens when you grow upand you're still carrying one
of those early maladaptiveschemas inside you?
In adulthood?
Schemas act like a pair ofcolored glasses.
They tint the way you see theworld.
(11:44):
When a situation activates aschema, it's like hitting a
psychological nerve that wasalready sensitive.
You might suddenly feel intenseemotions that seem to come out
of nowhere, or you might findyourself reacting in ways that
later make you scratch your headand think why did I do that?
Let's take an example.
Suppose Ash has an abandonmentschema from their childhood.
(12:06):
Maybe one of their parents leftwhen they were young.
As an adult, when Ash enters arelationship, that schema is
lurking in the background.
Now, if their partner simplyhas to work late one night or
doesn't reply to a text for afew hours, ash's schema might
get activated.
They might suddenly feel a waveof panic or sadness out of
(12:27):
proportion to the situation.
It's that old fear that they'regoing to leave me.
In schema therapy terms.
Ash has an emotional buttonthat's been pushed.
Their heart races.
They feel abandoned anddesperate, maybe even angry or
ashamed for feeling so needy.
This is the schema flaring upin the present.
(12:48):
To their partner it might seemlike an overreaction, but to Ash
it feels 100% real andoverwhelming.
It's as if the old wound ofabandonment is open again in
that moment.
Schemas can affect almost anyaspect of life.
They especially love to appearin our relationships so romantic
friendships, even workrelationships because those
(13:10):
often mirror dynamics from ourearly years.
If you have a mistrust or abuseschema, you might constantly
suspect people's motives or findit extremely hard to get close
to anyone, always waiting forbetrayal.
If you have a defectivenessschema, the I am flawed, or bad
belief, you might feel insecureand unworthy around others,
(13:31):
perhaps avoiding intimacybecause you know what?
If someone really gets to knowyou, they'll dislike or reject
you.
Or you might seek out partnerswho criticize you, basically
confirming your schema, becauseunfortunately, we often
gravitate toward what feelsfamiliar, even if it hurts.
Someone with a social isolationschema might feel like they
(13:53):
just don't belong anywhere,leading them to withdraw and
isolate, which then reinforcesthe feeling of being an outsider
.
And it's not just relationships.
Schemas can influence yourcareer and achievements too.
Imagine a person with a failureschema, a belief that I will
fail in everything I do.
Even if this person is capable,they might sabotage
(14:16):
opportunities or shy away fromchallenges at work out of a fear
of failure, thereby neverreaching their potential, which
then confirms to them thatthey're a failure, or consider
someone with an unrelentingstandard schema, a belief that
they must be perfect and meetimpossibly high standards at all
(14:38):
times.
This person might be aperfectionist, pushing
themselves to the brink andeventually burning out, or
feeling chronically stressed.
Coworkers might admire theirdedication, but internally the
person never feels good enoughbecause only 100% perfection
meets the schema's demand.
Essentially, these schemas actlike scripts in the background
(15:01):
of our minds.
When a relevant situationarises, we often play out the
script automatically.
The emotions can be very strong,like ashes, panic or deep shame
or intense anger, becausethey're tied to old, powerful
memories, and the behaviors thatcome out whether it's clinging
to a partner, avoidingconfrontation or working
(15:23):
yourself to death often end upmaintaining the schema's hold on
you.
Here's the really tricky partSchemas tend to become
self-fulfilling prophecies.
We might unintentionally behavein ways that make that feared
outcome more likely, thusreinforcing the schema.
(15:43):
For example, someone with anabandonment schema like Ash
might become so anxious andclingy with their partner,
calling them constantly, needingrepeated reassurance, that the
partner feels smothered andpulls back, possibly even leaves
the relationship.
This, of course, confirms Ash'sworst fear.
(16:03):
See, everyone leaves me, inthat case, the schema kind of
guided behavior, their intenseneediness that helped bring
about the very result theydreaded.
Another person with the sameschema might do the opposite
push their partner away first ortest them harshly to see if
they really care, which alsostrains the relationship.
Either way, the outcome ends upthe same the schema is
(16:27):
reinforced.
It's a vicious cycle.
The schema gets activated, leadsto strong feelings and usually
some maladaptive reaction, andthat reaction often produces
consequences that feed rightback into the schema's core
belief.
Living under the influence of astrong schema can be really
painful.
It can cause chronic anxiety,depression or anger.
(16:51):
Over years, these patterns caneven contribute to mental health
disorders.
In fact, research and clinicalobservations show that
persistent schemas can lead toongoing problems like depression
, anxiety and personalitydisorders, because they create a
cycle of negative thoughts andbehaviors that is hard to escape
without help.
It's like being stuck on amerry-go-round and not knowing
(17:15):
how to jump off.
So if you're thinking, yep,I've got a few of those patterns
myself, you're definitely notalone.
The next logical question is howdo we usually cope with these
schemas?
Once we have them, peopleactually cope in pretty
predictable ways.
Schema therapy points out threemain coping styles and chances
(17:35):
are you'll recognize at leastone of them in yourself.
When a schema gets activatedand those uncomfortable feelings
surge up, we instinctively tryto cope with them.
In schema therapy we talk aboutthree basic coping styles that
people use in dealing with aschema Surrender, avoidance and
(17:58):
overcompensation.
Don't worry about the jargon,these are actually intuitive
once you get the idea.
So let's break it down one byone, and we'll use a concrete
example or two to make it clear.
Surrender this means giving into the schema and behaving as if
it's true.
It's like the schema is theboss and you just go along with
(18:18):
what it says about you or others.
For instance, if you have adefectiveness schema I am
unlovable, I'm unbroken andyou're in surrender mode, you
might tolerate a lot of badtreatment from others because
deep down you feel you deserveit.
You surrender to that feelingof worthlessness.
An example is someone who staysin an emotionally abusive
(18:41):
relationship, not assertingthemselves, basically confirming
the schema's message that thisis all I am worth.
In the case of an abandonmentschema, surrender might look
like clinking to whoever isclose out of fear, or repeatedly
choosing partners who areunstable or dismissive,
essentially playing out theabandonment over and over
(19:04):
because it feels inevitable.
Surrendering is a passivestance.
The person doesn't fight theschema.
They accept the pain as justthe way of life.
The next one is avoidance, andthis style is all about escaping
or avoiding anything that mightactivate the schema.
If your schema is neveractivated, then you won't feel
(19:26):
that pain.
That's the often unconsciouslogic here.
Using the examples, someonewith an abandonment schema might
avoid serious relationshipsaltogether.
If I don't get close to anyone,I won't be hurt.
That's the thinking.
They might keep people at arm'slength or in relationships at
the first sign of difficulty.
(19:47):
A person with a defectivenessschema might avoid situations
where they fear their flaws willbe exposed.
Maybe they shy away from socialgatherings, avoid intimacy or
even use substances, food ordistractions to numb the
feelings when the schema isactivated.
Another common avoidance tacticis emotional withdrawal, like
(20:11):
shutting down emotionally orrefusing to think about certain
memories or topics because thosemight bring up the schema.
Avoidance can give short-termrelief.
You don't confront the fear inthe moment, but of course it
limits your life and keeps youfrom challenging the schema.
If you always avoid trust andcloseness, you never get the
(20:32):
chance to disconfirm that peoplecan be loyal and loving.
Then there's overcompensation.
This is the fight response.
You fight back against theschema by doing the extreme
opposite of what it suggests.
On the surface this sounds morepositive, but it can get pretty
tricky pretty quickly.
Overcompensation often meansovercorrecting in a way that can
(20:56):
be maladaptive.
For example, someone with anunderlying defectiveness schema
might swing to the opposite andact as if they are superior or
perfect.
To cover their deep feelings ofinferiority, they might brag,
show off or becomeultra-competitive, trying to be
superhuman so that no one canever point out a flaw.
(21:16):
Internally they still feeldefective, but they hide it
behind a mask of perfection orarrogance.
In the case of an abandonmentschema, an overcompensator might
push others away first to avoidany dependency.
Picture someone who says Idon't need anybody, I'm a rock,
(21:38):
I'm an island.
They might date multiple peopleand keep it very casual, or
become overly independent andrefuse help, all to avoid ever
feeling dependent or abandoned.
Another overcompensation mightbe trying to control or test
partners.
I'll make them prove they won'tleave constantly, which
(21:59):
ironically can strainrelationships.
Overcompensation is basically away of saying I'll show that
schema is wrong by going to theopposite extreme.
But because it's extreme andnot a balanced, genuine behavior
.
It doesn't truly heal theschema.
In fact, all three of thesecoping styles surrender,
avoidance and overcompensationusually end up reinforcing the
(22:22):
schema in the long run.
All right, so to sum this up andcement this, let's briefly
revisit our characters.
Ash, with their abandonmentschema.
We can see that if theysurrender, they become clingy
and anxious.
If they avoid, they distantthemselves or leave
relationships early.
And if they overcompensate,they might pretend not to care
(22:43):
or even provoke a breakup ontheir own terms.
All roads sadly lead back tofeeling abandoned.
Likewise, for someone with adefectiveness schema,
surrendering might meanaccepting blame or criticism all
the time.
Avoidance might look likehiding your true self and
avoiding close connections.
And overcompensation might meanstriving to be perfect and
(23:05):
never admitting any weakness.
Different behaviors, sameunderlying pain.
Most of us use a mix of thesecoping styles in different
situations, or we might leanheavily on one.
None of them actually resolvethe schema, they just manage it,
and often poorly.
Recognizing your go-to copingstyle can be a big eye-opener.
(23:27):
You might realize oh, oh,that's why I always do x when I
start feeling y.
Schema therapy helps people seethese patterns clearly and then
gradually shift to healthiercoping.
Now you might be wondering ifthese schemas and their coping
behaviors are so entrenched, whyare they so hard to change?
(23:47):
Why can't we just snap out ofit once we notice it?
And that's a great question.
Understanding the stubbornnature of schemas is key to
appreciating why schema therapycan be so useful.
If a schema is basically afalse or unhealthy belief, why
don't we just update it like weupdate an old software program?
(24:08):
Well, the short answer is thatschemas are sneaky, they're deep
and they're self-perpetuating.
They're hard to change forseveral reasons.
First, remember that schemasusually form very early in life.
They've been with us for a longtime, often since childhood or
adolescence.
By the time we reach adulthood,a schema has had years and
(24:28):
years to reinforce itself.
It becomes part of how weautomatically think and feel.
Schemas are extremely stableand enduring themes that we
carry with us and build uponthroughout life.
We tend to notice informationthat confirms our schemas and
discount information thatcontradicts them.
(24:51):
It's a bit like having abuilt-in confirmation bias.
If you deeply believe I'munlovable, you might dismiss
compliments or love you receive.
They're just being nice.
Oh, that doesn't count.
Yet you'll dwell on any slightor criticism as proof that your
belief is true.
Over years, you collect amountain of evidence in your
(25:11):
mind supporting the schema andany evidence to the contrary
slides off like Teflon.
Now we just discussed the copingstyles we often use to keep
these schemas intact.
If you avoid anything thatchallenges your schema, how will
you ever learn a differentbelief?
If you surrender to it, you'reliving it out without protest.
If you overcompensate, youmight achieve temporary wins,
(25:34):
that is, feeling in control orsuperior, but you're not really
healing the wound, you'recovering it up.
Many times our coping behaviorsactually lead to outcomes that
reinforce the schema.
So the example I gave ofsomeone within abandonment fear,
acting in ways that push othersaway, thus ending up abandoned,
and quote, proving the schemaright.
(25:56):
Or think of someone with amistrust schema who trusts no
one.
They may end up alone andwithout support, which tends to
confirm that people aren't therefor you.
Support which tends to confirmthat people aren't there for you
.
This self-fulfilling prophecynature of schemas makes them
very sticky.
Another reason schemas persistis that, ironically, they can
(26:18):
become part of our comfort zone.
Now, comfort is a strange wordbecause schemas usually cause
discomfort.
Right, but it's a familiardiscomfort.
It's the devil.
We know If you felt worthlessor anxious or angry for most of
your life.
Feeling genuinely happy ortrusting can actually be scary
because it's unfamiliar.
(26:41):
People sometimes unconsciouslysabotage positive changes
because a part of them isaccustomed to the old narrative.
There's a sense of this is justwho I am.
The schema feels like it's partof your identity.
Letting it go can be asfrightening as losing a piece of
yourself or stepping into awhole new world without your
(27:04):
usual defenses.
Additionally, schemas are oftentied to strong emotions and
memories.
Just thinking your way out ofthem, like telling yourself I
know not everyone will abandonme, might not work when your
emotional brain is convincedotherwise.
Under stress or when anactivator hits, the emotional
memory can overwhelm therational thoughts.
(27:26):
This is why purely cognitiveapproaches sometimes fall short.
You might logically understandthat a relief is false, but
still feel it to be true deepdown.
So all of these factorslong-term reinforcement,
self-fulfilling, coping, comfortzone, familiarity and emotional
weight make early maladaptiveschemas very persistent.
(27:50):
They don't usually change justwith insight or time.
It often takes a concertedeffort, usually in therapy, to
restructure these schemas.
In fact, people often need acorrective experience to
override those old patterns.
This is where schema therapycomes in with its toolkit.
So let's talk about that for abit.
(28:10):
How does schema therapyactually help someone change a
schema and what does it looklike in practice?
The good news is, even thoughschemas are tough, they can be
changed with professional help.
Schema therapy offers a reallycomprehensive approach to
healing these deep patterns.
It's not a quick fix, but it isa powerful process.
So let's look at what typicallyhappens in a therapeutic
(28:31):
environment and some of the kindof techniques that are used.
One is identifying your schema.
So first a therapist would helpyou identify any specific
schemas.
This might involvequestionnaires, guided
reflection or just talkingthrough life history and
recurring difficulties.
Lot of times just putting aname to your schema can be
relieving like oh so I have anabandonment schema and a failure
(28:55):
schema.
That's why these things keepcoming up.
It gives you a framework tounderstand your struggles in a
non-judgmental way.
You realize it's not just youbeing irrational, it's a schema
that formed for a reason.
So building a supportivetherapeutic relationship is a
great tool for healing.
Remember those unmet coreemotional needs.
(29:16):
The therapy setting becomes aplace to start meeting those
needs in a safe way.
The therapist does something inschema therapy, often called
limited reparenting.
Now that doesn't mean that thetherapist actually becomes your
parent and it has to stay withinhealthy professional boundaries
.
But the idea is that thetherapist takes on a kind of
(29:36):
supportive, caring role, muchlike a good parent or caregiver
would.
They provide warmth, empathyand validation, and they also
provide guidance and set limitswhen needed Basically, a healthy
parental figure.
If you've been cravingacceptance your whole life, the
therapist is consistentlyaccepting of you.
If you never had anyone standup for you, the therapist might
(29:59):
be very protective of yourwell-being.
Over time, this reparentingexperience can start to fill
some of the void from childhood.
It's considered limited becauseit happens only within sessions
and within appropriate limits,but it's incredibly healing.
Clients often say they feellike for the first time someone
is giving them the unconditionalsupport they always needed.
(30:22):
Researchers found that thisaspect the strong bond and
corrective emotional experienceis a big factor in schema
therapy's effectiveness.
Schema therapy isn't just abouttalking about your childhood in
a detached way.
It often involves experientialexercises to emotionally process
those memories.
One powerful technique iscalled imagery re-scripting.
(30:45):
The therapist might guide youinto a visualization of a
painful childhood memory.
For instance, you might pictureyour six-year-old self crying
alone in your room after beingyelled at.
Then the therapist helps yourewrite the script of that
memory.
Maybe your adult self or thetherapist in the imagery enters
the scene, comforts the childand tells off the adult who was
(31:06):
hurting you, ensuring the childis safe.
This might sound a bit odd butit can be very powerful
emotionally.
Clients often feel a hugerelease or a sense of resolution
when their inner child receivesthe care and protection they
never got back.
Then it's like giving yourbrain a new experience to
associate with that old herd,which helps diminish the
(31:27):
schema's intensity.
Another experiential method isthe empty chair technique
brought from just-taught therapy.
Here you might have an imagineddialogue between parts of
yourself.
For example, you put yourschema or maybe an internalized
critical parent voice in onechair and you or another part,
(31:48):
like your healthy adult side,sit in another.
Then you have it out.
Maybe you as the healthy part,tell your critical voice why
you're not going to believe I'mworthless anymore, or you stand
up for the hurt child part ofyou.
It sounds role play-ish, butdoing this in a guided way with
a supportive therapist can leadto breakthroughs.
Suddenly you realize wait, Idon't actually agree with that
(32:10):
cruel voice anymore.
These experiential exerciseshelp to link new positive
emotional experiences to thoseold schemas, which is essential
for deep change.
Of course, schema therapy alsouses a lot of classic cognitive
strategies, much like CBT does.
This means you and thetherapist will identify the
(32:31):
specific beliefs that make upyour schema Say the belief that
I'm unlovable or I always willbe abandoned and then you'll
challenge and test those beliefs.
You might examine evidence forand against them, come up with
healthier thoughts to replacethem and slowly work on
internalizing a new belief.
For example, I am worthy oflove and I can find people who
(32:55):
will stay with me.
Therapists might give homework,like journaling whenever a
schema is activated and writingdown a more balanced response,
or reading flashcards oraffirmations to yourself that
remind you of your new, healthybeliefs when you feel the old
schema is firing up.
The cognitive piece isimportant because it helps
(33:16):
restructure the intellectualunderstanding of things.
You learn to spot thedistortions caused by the schema
and correct them over time.
However, cognitive techniquesalone aren't enough for schemas,
since the emotional side is sostrong, which is why they're
combined with the experientialand relational methods.
Finally, schema therapy alsolooks at changing behaviors that
(33:39):
stem from schemas.
This is sometimes calledpattern breaking.
It's a kind of ultimate goal tostart doing things differently
in real life, not just in yourhead or heart.
If you always withdraw when youfeel criticized, perhaps due to
a defectiveness schema, thetherapist might help you
gradually practice notwithdrawing, maybe voicing how
(34:03):
you feel to a trusted person orcontinuing to stay engaged in a
situation.
A If you overcompensate bybeing aggressive whenever you
feel vulnerable, therapy willfocus on helping you notice that
and try more measured responses.
Often gradual exposure to whatyou fear can help disprove the
(34:26):
schema.
For example, someone with asubjugation schema, where they
always put others' needs firstand ignore their own, might
practice saying no or expressinga preference in small steps and
learn that others don'tactually hate them for it.
In fact, their relationshipsimprove, as does their ability
to establish and maintainhealthy boundaries.
(34:48):
Therapists may give homework orexperiments for the client to
try between sessions, like ask afriend for a small favor this
week or do something nice foryourself and note how it feels,
depending on the schema.
Over time these new behaviorscreate new evidence and
experiences that contradict theschema's message and you
consistently behave in ahealthier way and see the sky
(35:10):
doesn't fall.
The schema's grip loosens.
So throughout this process.
The therapist is like a coachand an ally.
Schema therapy can beemotionally intense at times
because we're dealing withlong-held pain, but it's also
incredibly validating.
A schema therapist often willexplicitly tell you that what
(35:32):
happened to you wasn't yourfault and that the feelings of
the child part of you are valid,while also helping you learn to
meet those needs now inhealthier, adult ways.
They blend compassion withencouragement for you to change
the patterns that have beenhurting you.
The ultimate goal is to getyour core emotional needs met in
(35:52):
a healthy way now as an adult,to reparent yourself with the
therapist's help, so to speak,so that you are no longer at the
mercy of those schemas.
As therapy progresses, peopleusually begin to notice their
schemas getting weaker.
Maybe a situation that used toactivate a 10 out of 10
abandonment pain now onlyactivates a 5 out of 10 and you
(36:13):
recover faster.
You start to question theschema when it comes up.
Is it really true that I'mdefective or is this just that
old story again?
You also develop a stronger,healthy, adult side.
That's the part of you that cannurture your vulnerable side,
set limits on the punitive orimpulsive side and basically run
(36:36):
your life in a balanced way Inschema therapy terms.
The healthy adult mode growsand the maladaptive schema modes
shrink.
The end result is that you feelmore secure, empowered and
emotionally fulfilled.
You're not completely at thewhim of those old patterns.
You can catch them and responddifferently.
(36:56):
It's worth noting that schematherapy is often a longer-term
therapy, especially for complexor deeply rooted issues.
It's frequently used forconditions like borderline
personality disorder, chronicdepression and complex trauma,
and has been quite successful inthose realms.
But it's also applicable toanyone who feels stuck in
(37:19):
recurring emotional orrelational patterns, which,
honestly, is most of us to somedegree.
The combination of insight,emotion-focused healing and
behavior change makes it apowerful approach to really
transform those early schemas.
We've covered a lot of groundtoday, from what schemas are and
how they mess with our lives tothe innovative ways schema
(37:42):
therapy tries to address them.
So let's wrap up with a quickrecap and some final thoughts.
So, to sum up today'sexploration, schema therapy is
an integrative, depth-focusedtherapy that helps people
identify and change the coreschemas, which are the deep
patterns that often start inchildhood and continue to affect
(38:03):
their adult life.
We learned that earlymaladaptive schemas are like
entrenched beliefs or emotionalthemes such as I'll be abandoned
, I'm not good enough or I can'ttrust anyone, which arise when
our core emotional needs forsafety, love, acceptance,
autonomy, etc.
Aren't met.
When we're young, these schemascan powerfully shape our
(38:25):
feelings, behaviors andrelationships, leading to cycles
of pain and self-sabotage.
People cope with schemas in afew common ways by surrendering
to them.
So this is giving in to thepattern or avoiding them,
blocking out activators orovercompensating, fighting the
schema by going to the oppositeextreme.
(38:48):
Unfortunately, those copingstyles can keep us stuck and
make the schemas even morepersistent.
We also talked about why theseschemas stick around.
They're built on years ofexperiences, reinforced by our
behaviors and perceptions andtied to big emotions, so they
don't just vanish on their own.
That's why schema therapymethods come in Through a strong
(39:12):
healing relationship with thetherapist, limited reparenting,
for example, experientialexercises like imagery that heal
old wounds, cognitivetechniques to rethink and
reframe the old beliefs, andpracticing new behaviors.
Schema therapy works to meetthose unmet needs and ultimately
(39:32):
challenge the life patternsthat have been causing us
problems.
It's about growing that healthypart of you that can nurture
the hurt child inside and makechoices that lead to a more
fulfilling life, rather thanbeing driven by the pain of the
past.
I hope this discussion has beenenlightening and maybe sparked
some personal reflection.
(39:53):
You might be thinking aboutyour own life now.
Are there any patterns thatring a bell?
Perhaps certain activators thatsend you into a tailspin, or a
type of scenario you always findyourself in?
It can be a useful exercise tojust notice these and wonder
could this be a schema at work?
For example, the next time youfeel a really strong emotional
(40:17):
reaction that seems out ofproportion, you might step back
and think is this reactioncoming from a younger place in
me?
What's the story I'm tellingmyself right now that awareness
alone is a great first step.
Of course, knowing about schemasis just the beginning.
Changing them usually takestime and often some help.
(40:39):
If you identified with anythingwe talked about today, you
might consider learning more onschema therapy or even reaching
out to mental healthprofessionals who know this
approach.
You can find resources in theshow notes.
So the takeaway message ishopeful.
No matter how long you've beenstuck in a negative pattern,
(40:59):
change is possible.
The early chapters of your lifedon't have to define the rest
of your story.
Schema therapy, in essence, isabout giving yourself a chance
to rewrite those old scripts, toprovide that little child
inside you what they needed andnever got, and to watch how that
transforms your present.
It's hard work, but many findit profoundly rewarding.
(41:22):
Thank you for joining me in thisdeep dive into schema therapy.
It's a complex topic, but webroke it down today.
Hopefully you found it engagingand learned something new about
yourself or others, if nothingelse, next time you catch
yourself in one of those why amI like this moments?
(41:43):
You might remember this talkand consider that a schema could
be in play and that there areways to heal it.
Feel free to share this episodewith anyone who might find it
helpful and, as always, Iencourage you to stay curious
and compassionate towardyourself.
We all have our schemas andpatterns, but with understanding
and the right support, we canchange them.
Until next time, take care ofyourself and try to meet those
(42:05):
core emotional needs, becauseyou deserve it.
Thanks for listening.
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