Anthony Hauck: Audubon Conservation Ranching “Birds and Herds”

In this episode of Regenerative Renegades, host Matt Maier welcomes Anthony Hauck of the National Audubon Society to discuss the symbiotic relationship between grazing cattle and grassland birds. Mr. Hauck serves as Communications Manager of the Audubon Conservation Program, the organization's flagship grassland habitat effort to stabilize declining grassland bird populations in partnership with farmers and ranchers. 

Regenerative Renegades presenting sponsor Thousand Hills Lifetime Grazed recently earned the Audubon's Bird-Friendly Land Certification. Thousand Hills’ grassfed beef products—available at more than 2,500 retail locations nationwide—will begin displaying the Audubon Certified Bird-Friendly seal on the entire Thousand Hills grassfed beef product portfolio. The Audubon Conservation Ranching certification label recognizes products grazed on products grazed on land managed for birds and herds. Thousand Hills’ independent ranches were rigorously audited by Audubon, ultimately meeting the requirements centering on habitat management, environmental sustainability, and animal welfare to earn the Audubon Bird-Friendly Land certification.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hey everyone, I'm standing here on the farm that I
grew up on and all around us arecattle, just like how when I
grew up, and many birds.
I hope you can hear them, buttrust me when I say there's many
birds around here.

(00:21):
There's sparrows which I justrecently learned that are
reducing in numbers quitedrastically.
I've seen this morning wildturkeys.
Listen there.
That's a bald eagle.
There's a nest right up here.
Anyway, there's birds all aroundus here because we're providing

(00:44):
the habitat by properly grazingthe cattle, meaning letting
plants express themselves,grazing them easily, and then
moving off and letting theplants resume their growing.
And it's a process that alwaysthen provides wildlife habitat,
especially for birds andpollinators.

(01:06):
And the birds are helping withthe flies at this time of year.
eating the flies, off thecattle, flying through the air.
Thank you.
A little contribution there.
And I want to announce thatThousand Hills Lifetime Grazed
Grass-Fed Beef has been nowcertified by the Audubon

(01:30):
Conservation Ranching Program sothat we have bird-friendly land.
And that introduces our next...
Our next episode featuringAnthony Houck from Audubon
Conservation Ranching to talkabout our certification and the
importance of birds and wildlifehabitat and reversing the trend

(01:52):
that we see from more tillagethat destroys the grasslands And
even with cattle overgrazing toa point where there isn't any
cover left and no rest, that'sthe way I was raised.
We'd put cattle in this pastureand they'd hold them all summer
until everything was down to theground and then we'd move them

(02:12):
to another pasture.
Our system is much differentthan that in that it's a one day
grazing onto the next with stillcover for the birds and
wildlife.
And it happens to regenerate thesoil, sequester more carbon,
improve our water retention, andall of those things.

(02:34):
So on our episode ofRegenerative Renegades, we'll be
talking about this with AnthonyHouck from Audubon.
Love the Audubon folks.
They're great people to workwith, and they're doing great
work.
So I hope you enjoy.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to the RegenerativeRenegades podcast.
Really happy today to haveAnthony Houck with us.

(02:58):
We got to know Anthony a littlebit through our certification
process.
I'll give you a littlebackground here.
We'll talk about Anthony so hedoesn't have to talk about
himself.
Anthony is a proud native of theprairie with grassland and
agricultural roots along theMinnesota and South Dakota
border.
His love for birds took flightat Salt Lake.

(03:19):
a historic prairie basin andbirding destination bordered by
both states.
Both states meaning Minnesotaand South Dakota.
You bet.
All right.
You betcha.
Yeah.
There, I covered both states.
That's right.
And not the Salt Lake we wouldthink of, right?
Right.
Yeah.
The other Salt Lake.
The other Salt Lake, yeah.

(03:40):
Anthony has dedicated his careerto conservation communications
with nearly 20 years ofcommunications experience in
news, media, state naturalresource agencies, and
conservation nonprofits.
For the National AudubonSociety, Anthony works in the
Conservation Ranching Program.
That's why he's here.
Where he focuses on publicizingthe value of the Audubon Bird

(04:01):
Friendly Land Certification.
This includes growing awarenessfor the Audubon-certified
bird-friendly seal, a specialpackage and promotional label on
beef and bison products thattells consumers products were
grazed on lands managed forbirds and biodiversity.
He also works to build a betterpublic perception of grazing,
specifically rotational grazing,as an essential grassland

(04:25):
habitat management tool that'skey to stabilizing declining
grassland bird populations.
All right.
Well, Anthony, as I read that, Ithink about how amazing it is
that Audubon got involved ingrazing.
But before we get to that, I'dlike to hear about your journey

(04:47):
and what brought you here andwhat passion drives you in this
whole industry.

SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Sure.
Well, thanks for having me.
You bet.
It's...
It's easy for me to sit here aswe're recording this in this
farmhouse near Clearwater,Minnesota.
Old farmhouse, and I say that ina very complimentary way.
And it's kind of like the placeI grew up.
The town that I grew up in, mostof my upbringing, Madison,

(05:19):
Minnesota.
Yes, there is a Madison,Minnesota.
I say that all the time, andpeople say, you mean Madison,
Wisconsin, as if I don't knowwhere I'm from.
Western Minnesota.
Grew up on a farm.
We call them farms there atleast.
You move across the border,they're ranches.
It's a hard divide.
And your hat has to change too.

(05:40):
It does.
It's cowboy country as soon asyou cross the border.
I grew up very close to theSouth Dakota border on a farm
and it was just living back thenin the 80s and 90s.
Spent a lot of time outdoors.
We had grasslands and wetlandsand a river on our farm.
We had livestock.
I was outside all the time.

(06:02):
Little to no supervision, and Imean that in a kind way to my
parents.
They just let us go.
We were able to just have therun of the place.
Consider that instrumental in mylove of just the outdoors,
wildlife, livestock, animals.
Isn't

SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
it amazing, if I could just stop you for a
second, how...
When that's imprinted on you,nature, livestock, farm, any
part of that or all of it, I wasjust thinking on my way over
about how you just, you can'tshake it.
You know, like it's a part ofyou.

(06:41):
And whenever you're in any ofthose environments, it feels
like home.
Is that right?
It

SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
is home.
You know, I did try to shake it,which I don't think is abnormal.
No, I did too.
I did too.
Right.
And by the time I was ateenager, I just, I wanted to
get away.
And you're kind of told to gosee the world too.
And there was a push.
I think it's changed a bit, butyou go to college.
That's just what you do.
You go elsewhere.

(07:10):
I never thought about staying.
And by the time I was done withcollege, it was...
I just really missed it and kindof realized how good I'd had it.
My brother has stayed home andtaken over the farm with good
reason.
He's got more of that mindsetand he's more mechanically

(07:32):
inclined than I am.
It does take.
But yeah, I miss it.
And I realized that I did have aconnection to the land and the
outdoors.
And so, um, I did a littlenewspaper reporting and I was a
little, I got burned out on thatpretty quick.
And that whole environment haschanged too.
And I, I guess the funny thingis I'd never thought about a

(07:54):
career in conservation unlessyou were like a biologist.
Um, and my, my dad had alwaysbeen a volunteer for kind of the
more of the hook and bulletsportsman's organizations, um,
ducks and limited pheasantsforever.
Yeah.
And he said, why don't you justdo that?
They need more than biologists.
And that sent me down this pathwhere I was hired at Pheasants

(08:15):
Forever and worked there for agood while.
And then the Minnesota DNRbefore coming to Audubon.
And I imagine there's stillpeople out there that think
like, well, you just have to bea biologist to work at these
places.
And of course, you can You canwork in communications.
You can be an accountant.

(08:35):
These types of organizationsneed a slew of talent across the
board, and I've kind of found myway doing that.

SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
Well, as a marketing guy, I remember the first time
we met, and I think I asked youthe naive question like, okay,
what kind of degree do you havein biology?
What kind of a birder are you?
And you really shifted aroundand said, well, I'm actually in
communications.

UNKNOWN (09:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
And I thought, that is so awesome to be able to pick
up your career with that degreeand that skill set.

SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
It's connected me, reconnected me to my home.
I mean, I live in Minneapolisnow, and we'll get into more of
these conservation connections,but I've lived in Minneapolis
now for 20 years, and I'vealways felt connected to my home
in Western Minnesota, but alsoto the land and, and, uh, um, my

(09:36):
profession is instrumental in,in maintaining that connection.
I sometimes don't know if I'dhave that if I wasn't working
for the birds and, um, yeah, it,it, it, I get that a lot, you
know, people, and I see that alot with like Audubon employees.
Well, they just automaticallyassume you're a bird nerd.
I'm Kind of an amateurnaturalist.

(09:56):
Oh, I like that.
Bird

SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
nerd.
I'm going to use that

SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
one.
Bird nerd.
Every once in a while, it'sdangerous turf because I think
I'm really starting to knowsomething about birds.
And then I come across the restof my coworkers who are, you
know, like scientists andornithologists, and they just
put me to shame.

SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Yeah, that's all right.
Yeah.
So, so that brought you like,that's your background.
And how long have you been withAudubon?
I've

SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
been with, I'm in my fourth year with Audubon.
Yep.
And, uh, um, I just love it.
You know, it's every place is alittle different.
I, I, I, uh, as, as I'm kind of,you know, maybe the midpoint of
my career, I get to reflect onit.
It's like, I'm, I'm glad thatI've had, uh, an array of
experiences now.
Um, yeah.

(10:44):
one for a more hunting-focusedconservation group.
When I was at the Department ofNatural Resources, I worked in
forestry.
Oh, you were with the DPR.
And I did love that, but what itreally made me realize was that
I like the prairie.
Just a reminder that I like theprairie more than trees.
And I'm not, don't get me wrong,I'm not anti-tree by any means,

(11:05):
but I like trees in the rightplaces and So I was missing the
prairie quite a bit, althoughthat was a great experience in
public service.
But Audubon is a fascinatingorganization.
It's nationwide, coast to coast,Minnesota to Texas organization.
do so many interesting things,and I love that, and we work

(11:27):
with so many smart and talentedpeople, and we'll dig in, but
our Audubon ConservationRanching Program, what I really
love about it is it's reallyunique, and it feels like we're
trying to tackle some seriousenvironmental problems in a
unique and different way, and Ithink that's what conservation
needs more of is kind ofchanging Working to change

(11:49):
paradigms, and it's not alwayseasy, but it's been fun to be in
kind of a different mode ofconservation.

SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to saysomething, and it's not blowing
smoke, but I will concur thatall the people that I've met
that work for Audubon, at anylevel, they share two things.
One, a real passion for whatthey're doing in whatever form
they're doing and whatever theirgifts are and applying those.

(12:17):
But then two, that they're verysmart.
They're just smart and they'regood at what they do.
And to me, Audubon as anorganization, to make that leap
from what we would say normalconservation or I don't know how
you would term that.

(12:37):
Traditional maybe.
Traditional conservation tosaying, hey, we're going to work
with ranchers, farmers, grazingthe land, Because if that
grazing is done correctly, ifit's adaptive, if it's managed,
that is very good for thehabitat, which is good for the
birds.
And I don't know how many timesI've told people that.

(12:58):
It's like when they kind ofaudubon and grass-fed beef, how
does that work?
And it's like, well, it actuallyworks great because I've seen it
with my own eyes.
I've seen that when we managecorrectly, and adapt to the
environment, and to wildlife,and to water, and to the various
forces that are changing all thetime, the results are amazing.

(13:20):
And so I was a believer beforewe ever met, or before I knew of
the conservation program, justby watching what had been
attracted, what wildlife hadbeen attracted to our land since
we started managing it in a moreregenerative manner.

SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Right.
It's...
I've...
I'm lucky to kind of witness atransformation that's taken
place in the conservationcommunity.
I think over, yeah, I'd say thiscentury.
I mean, it's not like we, it's,we, uh, it's not like
conservation organizations neverworked with private landowners,
but the strategy has reallyshifted from just protecting

(13:58):
certain wildlife areas andsanctuaries kind of, I don't
know what the right analogywould be.
It's like almost like we wereplaying checkers on a chessboard
and, um, You've got to bestrategic to do chess, and if
you want to be strategic inconservation, you have to work
with private landowners.
They own 90% of the land, right?
I mean, it varies from state tostate, but in Minnesota here,

(14:21):
private landowners own 75% ofthe land.
In Iowa and Kansas, it'sprobably closer to like 98%,
99%.
And if you're not working withthose people to...
drive conservation forward, it'sreally hard to scale your
success.
The other thing that's reallyinteresting, I guess, in terms
of the work that I get to do is,even beyond just the Audubon

(14:48):
Conservation Ranching Program,but there's two things that come
to mind.
It's like a lot of people don'teven really know we have
grasslands, right?
True.
And for a lot of myconversations and communication,
it kind of starts there.
We have grasslands.
That can shock some people.
Not only do we have them, butthey're the most endangered

(15:11):
biome on Earth.
And it's kind of a weird dynamicthat people know about the
rainforest and the plight theyface a continent away, don't
even know that we have our ownthreatened biome right here.
And then to your point, too,that once you kind of establish
that factor, people know aboutgrasslands.

(15:32):
It's like any habitat.
They have to be managed.
And grazing is a great way to dothat.
But it's taken a lot of work toeducate people, reconnect them
to grasslands.
I mean, only 40% of ourgrasslands are left.
That's what we got.
So we've got to do everything wecan to protect grasslands.
what we have left.

(15:53):
And if we got 40% left, and weshould add to that if we can,
reclaim, but what we have left,we really have to manage it and
make it the best it can possiblybe.
And that's the exciting partabout working with landowners
such as yourself, your network,and everybody else we work with,
that they want to make thegrassland habitat they have the
best it can be for birds, butalso for their animals, their

(16:15):
livestock.

SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Yeah.
You know, I want to go back tothis...
what I would say is set asideland that maybe is publicly
owned.
And historically, how do youmanage that?
You leave it alone.
Right.
For all practical purposes,that's what was done.
So we have seen and witnessedCRP land that was set aside and

(16:44):
supposed to be a good wildlifehabitat.
We've grazed refuges that haveallowed some grazing.
And so we've been able to seehow effective was that set aside
for the previous, that set asideland for the previous 20 years,
30 years, 40 years, however longuntil we arrived.

(17:06):
And without exception, again,with proper grazing management,
but without exception, we'vebeen able to take what was
pretty much a dormantenvironment with very little,
wildlife to witness and see youknow we'd see a lot of pocket
gophers you know some squirrelsand some deer but it it wasn't

(17:31):
full of life you didn't walkinto a set-aside piece of land
that what that is either setaside for whatever reason and
feel like you were in the middleof nature you just didn't quite
feel that way but if you grazedand managed and got off it let
it rest and let it Flourish.
Regenerate.
Yeah, and now you'reregenerating the soil, and then

(17:54):
what's on top of it, all thiswildlife habitat, and pretty
soon, you know, it takes two,three, four, five years, but you
start to get that feeling of thechaos of nature taking place,
and the birds overhead, and thebirds on the ground, and you can
just see that you're attractingin what wildlife needs to be

(18:16):
able to thrive.
And so there is, I say all thatbecause I do think this mindset
still needs shifting that justsetting aside land and doing
nothing with it is not whatnature intended.
And it's not the best for thewildlife habitat.
It's not the best for our foodsystem.

(18:37):
It's just, it's a man created,just like conventional
agriculture, It's a man-createdway of kind of working towards
something that at least says,we're not going to do this on
the land.
Instead of saying, we're goingto do this, which is going to
regenerate the land.
Meaning, in our case, livestockon the land, which has existed

(19:01):
forever.
Some type of ruminants grazingon the land, helping to
propagate that habitat.

SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Right, right.
Well...
It's interesting.
I suppose the best part of myjob is when I do explain to
somebody who doesn't really haveconsciousness about what it is
our Audubon ConservationRanching does and our grassland
work and maybe never even seen agrassland bird.

(19:33):
When you explain that process,there's grasslands.
They're really diverse placesand they...
they evolve to have disturbancewith like fire or bison and
cattle can do a pretty darn goodjob replicating some of that.
And then you get into the bend.
And if you explain it, the usualresponse is it, that's pretty
cool.
Actually, you just, it makessense.

(19:55):
It does.
When you

SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
explain

SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
it, if you get the chance to explain it, that's the
hard part, you know, to, tohave, um, intentional,
meaningful conversations withpeople harder online, but we
try, but I love that part of it.
And, and, you know, that'sprobably the most satisfying
part of my job.
I think too, about just, youknow, what we, we're always
trying to find, I think like theright terms for this work, you

(20:19):
know, um, Words matter, right?
It's regenerative agriculture.
My program, we consider it likeworking lands.
I think that's a pretty aptdescription.
These lands, they're working.
They're at work.
The land is really neverconstant.
It's going to change, to yourpoint about CRP, which is a

(20:39):
great program, and I think it'sevolving, and there's more of a
focus on management, but youcan't just leave grasslands
stagnant.
They need to be at work.
They need to have some form ofdisturbance.
And it's just been a realeducation for me to learn even
more about grazing and just howamazing it can be for bringing
back diverse plants and thenbringing back birds.

(21:02):
And that's the whole gist ofwhat we're trying to do on the
land is...
create a patchwork, a mosaic ofhabitat.
And you think like about thatCRP example, just 40 acres of
just kind of one kind ofhomogenous, you know, maybe a
few, after a few years, if it'sjust a few plants, if it's just

(21:25):
the same height.
Yeah, around here, it's

SPEAKER_01 (21:27):
smooth

SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
brome and cedar trees.
If it gets to that, it's notbenefiting a whole lot of, you
know, but if you can take, ifyou can take that and have 20
acres of, at a mid-level, 10acres low, 10 acres taller
grass.
I mean, it's about creating amosaic that benefits a lot of
wildlife, but definitely birds.

(21:50):
Birds don't all need the samething.
And if we're not grazing or ifwe're not using fire, but
grazing is what we focus on, andit might be the greatest
grassland management tool wehave.
If we're not managing the land,it's just not going to do as
good things for wildlife andprobably not us either.

SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
True.
Yep.
And we get into words.
I want to clarify a little bit.
In our little circle of thistype of grazing, there's a lot
of terms for it.
And I don't want people to thinkthat there's one magic term
because I've heard holistic,adaptive, managed, rotational.

(22:32):
The list goes on.
Right.
To me, it all falls under theumbrella that someone's paying
attention and they're managingthat grazing and they're
maximizing the ROI, the granderROI of how are we going to
replicate nature in a way thatachieves that ROI?

(22:54):
And then our byproduct in ourcase is grass fed beef that we
can enjoy.
But they're the tool that'sactually doing the work to get
the most out of that land and atthe same time regenerate it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:07):
Can we just have Webster's Dictionary just take
our terms then and just make iteasy so everybody buys into
this?
I think we're in a sorting outperiod about that too.
I think that's a greatdefinition and I agree
wholeheartedly.
It's getting...
System-wide.
And maybe it is beneficial thatnot everybody has the same.

(23:27):
Well, yeah, I think it is.
I think I like all the terms.
Right.
And I don't think there's anyone that's right.
One doesn't have to be set.
Right.
Every once in a while, I wonderif it would be better if some
were just set.
But anyways.
Oh, well, that's nature.
That's nature.
There's

SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
diversity.
I like that.
Yeah.
So let's give props to some ofthe people that put together
this program.
You know, consulting withAudubon, the early people that
were recognizing this.
If you can go back in history, Iknow I met with Marshall

(24:05):
Johnson, I don't know, 15 yearsago, 12 years ago, 10 years ago.
I don't know exactly how long,but a few years ago and talked
about this topic.

SPEAKER_00 (24:14):
Right.

UNKNOWN (24:15):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
The origins of Audubon Conservation Ranching
probably date back 15 years thatpeople were starting to think
about it.
Marshall, of course, nowAudubon's chief conservation
officer.
For

SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
him, he was lost in North

SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Dakota when I talked to him somewhere.
Yeah, well, he's a big thinker.
He's a visionary guy.
You probably knew right thenthat he was going to be in a
place like that.
Yeah.
So he was there, many other kindof partners, and I guess you'd
call them luminaries, RogerStill in Missouri.
I think the thing that's made itwork is there was– you kind of

(24:57):
talked about this kind of maybealmost like a figurative but
literal fence betweenconservationists and ranchers at
one point.
They just didn't work together.
And I think the smart thing thatthese– that are in the program's
formative years is it brought inranchers and not just from one

(25:20):
region, from across the country,you know, Midwest, Intermountain
West, the West, animal husbandryexperts, right?
Or animal welfare experts.
As they built out practices andprotocols for a program, they
did their due diligence.
That was important.
Then I think like...

SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Which is smart.
Audubon does that really well.
Right.
Like they vet and they find whoare the visionaries, who are the
experts.
Like I talked to Alan Williamsthe other day and he had input
on developing this program andhe really does know his stuff
and has for decades and decadesbeen, you know, a proponent of
what we're talking about.

(26:01):
Right.
You know, so Audubon does thatso well.
They really find the experts.

SPEAKER_00 (26:07):
And...
I suppose I should say so, inthe program, once we work with
private landowners such asyourself, and once they meet our
standards around environmentalsustainability, habitat
management, and animal welfare,they earn the certification.

(26:29):
I think another smart thing isthat to earn that...
to earn that bird-friendly landcertification, we don't just
rubber stamp it either.
We have a third-party audit.
Our outfit that does that isFood Alliance.
And I think that's a smart checkin there too, right, where it

(26:50):
makes it really accountable.
Also along this path, I think wesaw that even– Even the people
that kind of helped form theprogram were maybe even a bit
ahead of their time.
I mean, we've known for a whilethat grassland habitat and
grassland birds have been introuble.
But about five years ago, therewas a landmark study right as

(27:10):
the program was kind of enteringits kind of more public phase
that showed that, you know, inabout the last half century, 50
years, we've lost 3 billionbirds.

SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
You know,

SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
I just read that.
With a B.
That's with a B, 3 billion.

SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Three billion birds.
Do you know how many species?

SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Well, what I do know is that grassland birds have
suffered the biggest declines.
And one thing that I think isimportant to point out too, it
can be easy just to think, well,we've You lose birds and there's
some populations that don't haveas many and species just go

(27:55):
extinct.
We're talking about some verycommon birds too.
It's not just like species thatwere on the fringe.
Edelarks.
Bobwhite quail.
These are once common speciesthat have really lost a lot of
their populations.
That's a bad sign.
Of course, there are otherspecies that maybe have smaller

(28:20):
ranges, smaller populations, andthere's a good number of
grassland birds that are poisedto lose half their population in
the next 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Can you attribute that to, of course, you want to
know why.
Is it habitat?
Is it loss of grassland is theprimary?
Is there a chemical influence?
Is it predators like domesticcats and, you know, do you have
any way of quantifying?

SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
This report, which Audubon contributed to and was
put out by the Cornell Lab ofOrnithology, cites habitat loss
and fragmentation, which kind ofthe same thing almost.
I mean, but...
You lose habitat, that's notgood.
And when you degrade andfragment habitat, that can be
just almost as destructive aslosing it.

(29:15):
So

SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
fragmentation just meaning there's like a grassland
here and then 20

SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
miles away.
Disconnected.
You put up a house or a barn, astructure somewhere that can
fragment and some species don'twant to be near that.
But chemicals too.
Those are the two major causes.
And And they're interconnected,of course, right?

(29:39):
I mean, chemicals don't just...
And when I say chemicals, whenwe're talking pesticides,
herbicides, insecticides, it'snot like they live in a vacuum.
They end up on the land and...
And so there's aninterrelationship between
habitat and chemicals.
But habitat loss is probably theprimary reason.

(30:02):
Like I said, when we've lost 60%of our grasslands, that's just
an unmistakable factor.

SPEAKER_01 (30:09):
So over what time period did we lose the$3
billion?
I

SPEAKER_00 (30:14):
think it goes back to about the early 70s.
So your lifetime.
That's short.
Right?
That's a blink of an eye.

SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Yeah.
When were you born?
Well, 60s.
But, you know, I look like I wasborn in the 70s.
You do.

SPEAKER_00 (30:32):
Well, wow.
Youthful aura.
But yeah, yeah.
I mean, you know, this hashappened in the course of your
time here on Earth.
Wow.
And mine too.

SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Yeah.
That's really amazing.
It really is.
I mean, I'm thinking about areport that I put together in
what must have been about inseventh grade.
That was around the whole silentspring time period.
Right.
It was on magazine covers andthings.
And we didn't change much afterwhat was supposed to be the big

(31:00):
environmental movement that wasgoing to change everything for
the positive.
And yet this has happened inthat time period since that was
the whatever, you know, LakeErie on fire.
Right.
Those types of things that werehappening back then.
So, wow.
Yeah.
We've got, we've got some workto do.

SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
We've got some work.
So that, you know, that, I thinkthat put a, even a brighter
light on the focus of our, our,our work.
Like it's imperative that we domore.
And, um, so obviously it doesn'thurt that Marshall's moved on to
a higher position, I guess, to,you know, kind of wrap that

(31:40):
thought is like, he's, he's,he's helped this program grow,
um, Audubon ConservationRanching is now...
Someone told me this, so I hopeit's not wrong.
One of the other smart people atAudubon, but that Audubon
Conservation Ranching is thebiggest grassland conservation
program that's not run by thefederal government.

SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Oh, well, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
So when you hear that bad news, we do have to
look for signs of hope, right?
Yes.
And...
I think this program is one ofthose things.
It's 3 million acres.
We work 115 or so ranchers, andthe ranches have earned this
certification.
A collective that combines for 3million acres of bird-friendly

(32:26):
land that we've certified and isunder that active habitat
management that you soenthusiastically and aptly
described earlier.
That's a lot.
That's a great start, butthere's a lot of room to grow
and improve.
There's, it's, there's nothing,nothing but opportunity ahead.

(32:47):
So that, that, that, that doesgive you hope.
You got to have hope if you workin this world, right?

SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
For sure.
For sure.
You have to have something topoint to.
And so is there a date and agoal or goals for acreage or

SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
milestones?
Right.
I think like, you know, the next5 million acres is kind of that,
that, you know, that next one,you know, 10 million acres is,
maybe talked about in the backroom, corner offices.
I don't think that's out ofreach.
Audubon does have prettyambitious habitat goals overall.

(33:25):
This isn't all just grasslandhabitat, but the organization
is, this decade, focused onconnecting 300 acres
interconnecting 300 millionacres of habitat under our
strategic plan there's a lot ofways you know a lot of habitat
you know if that includes likeforests coasts etc but um you

(33:47):
know that that habitat is isdefinitely a key focus because

SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
that's what birds need to live yeah you caught me
at interconnecting so is therelike a map that actually shows
how the land is going to beinterconnected.
Cause that's really fascinating.
Right.
Cause you know, that gets awayfrom the fragmentation.
Right.
You can interconnect.
I'm guessing that's why it's

SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
important.
I think that, I think those,those bird nerds, the scientists
are working on developing that,see how everything's connected,
but yeah, that's, that's, that'sthe goal.
It's I, I do know that number300 million acres of, of
connected habitats and, and, Ihope we get there.
Yeah.
And grassland work is animportant component of that.

(34:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
Yeah.
I'm just thinking about fromwhere we sit in this farmhouse
and there's a lake out therethat's the mouth of a stream
that goes to the Mississippi.
And slowly we've been able torent or lease or buy land that
goes all the way to theMississippi now.
And that, and there is, I'venever thought about it from a,

(34:55):
what's that doing for habitat?
But there is kind of a, afeeling of like, okay, this,
this area we're positivelyimpacting and, and we're
connected to something bigger,the Mississippi river, and we're
helping to diminish the deadzone in, you know, by reducing

(35:16):
runoff.
And I don't know, that's part ofwhat gives me hope is like,
okay, it's not, it's not justour little isolated world that
we live in right here.
It's how, how, and this is justlike, how are we interconnecting
with other land, whether it'sgrazed or some other

(35:38):
conservation program, and beginto build those connections.
That's, I hadn't really thoughtabout it that way before.
I felt it, but I never reallythought about it.
That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 (35:52):
I think those, I think those connections are, uh,
you, you were just, you've justbeen like me growing up.
You're just living.
Right.
But I think those are some ofthe most profound, like, uh,
kind of points to get to when,when, I mean, I, like what
you've done here, right.

(36:13):
That this, this stream, not, notall that far from this
farmhouse, right.
No, no, just over the hill, justover the hill that, you know,
Feeds down, weaves its way intothe Mississippi River.
It's like what you do herematters along hundreds, I don't
know, a thousand miles of water.
Right.
And into the ocean.
Yeah.
And you can't discount that.

(36:35):
You should be proud of that.
But it's also like that stuffcan influence that behavior that
your modeling can influence,hopefully eventually, neighbors.
Oh, yeah.
People elsewhere along the way.
Policy eventually.
Yeah.
That also doesn't live in avacuum.
So it does matter.
I mean, sometimes it feels likethis work is insurmountable.

(36:57):
Sometimes it's lonely.
It's lonely.
Sometimes

SPEAKER_01 (36:59):
I'm lonely,

SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
yeah.
Right?
But it does matter, and peopleare paying attention.
It just always seems to take alittle bit longer than you want.

SPEAKER_01 (37:06):
For sure.
I'm kind of impatient, and I'mnot getting any younger.
But you know what?
Going through my mind is, sowhen I was a kid, you bring up
being a kid, and we'd buildlittle boats in the spring out
of pieces of wood or whatever,and watch them go down the
stream.
Max, my son is here.
He's also done the same thing.
Remember that, Max?

(37:27):
Yeah.
He nodded yes.
Yeah, he nodded yes.
But you get the sense whenyou're doing that, you're like,
wow, this thing, if it keptgoing, where would it go?
And it's connected all the wayto the Gulf of Mexico, but it's
also connected moving and it'sdynamic and it's connecting to
the Mississippi and, you know,and there's, there's that bigger

(37:51):
connection that like, let's, weall want to be part of something
bigger than ourselves.
And, and that moment just kindof helped me realize that.

SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Yeah.
Isn't that what it's all about?
I mean, in some, some respectevery day, you probably have a
few moments like that aroundhere, whether it's

SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
Yeah, outside of the frustration of something
breaking where you need to be amechanic and then you got to fix
it.
But yes.
Don't call me, remember that.
I'm not mechanically inclined.
I'm not either.
That wasn't part of the giftsthat I received.
So what do you see?
Okay, so Audubon's workingacross the country on different

(38:34):
ranches.
So are there parts of thecountry or are there pockets
that are kind of catching fireon this whole concept?
And how does that look?
You get the bird's eye view.
Oh,

SPEAKER_02 (38:48):
wow.

SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
Right.
No pun intended.

SPEAKER_00 (38:51):
Well, it's a good question.
Looking at our program, youknow, there's a lot of great
things happening.
Try to synthesize some of those.
I mean, I We work basically westof this great river that we've
just been talking about, theMississippi, and then in
Wisconsin.
That's the focal point of ourwork.

(39:14):
And it's not that there's notgrasslands in the east, but
that's where we're putting ourresources and most remaining
grasslands kind of that areintact and where we feel like we
can make the biggest impact arekind of that center, inner
mountain west, and then, youknow, west coast we're expanding
this year um to the kind of thelast remaining holes on the map

(39:37):
that we've had so we'll behiring some people in arizona
and new mexico We'll be hiringsome or getting work going in
Oregon and Washington, which waskind of a hole on the map.
And we've just hired a newperson to brought on, just
started a week ago, who's goingto be leading the show in

(39:59):
Oklahoma and Kansas.
So we kind of fill that in.
And we'll have, you know,resources, which is what our
ranchers that we work with need.
We'll have resources inbasically every state west of
the Mississippi and thenWisconsin.
You know, as far as like, youknow, Montana is probably a

(40:22):
state that we have to talkabout.
I mean, that's where a lot ofgrasslands are, a lot of
ranchers.
I think we've one-fifth of ourcertified ranches are in
Montana, so like 20.

SPEAKER_01 (40:34):
So that's the epicenter.

SPEAKER_00 (40:35):
That's pretty good.
But then there's 20 in theDakotas.
We've got probably 20 in theRockies, that region, Wyoming
and Colorado.
We're just getting going.
The thing is, some of the placeslike Minnesota, I think we have

(40:56):
a newly certified ranch here wemight want to talk about, but
we've got a couple here.
And probably what's exciting isthat the wait list, I guess, or
the people that are enrolled, Imean, there's a lot of ranches
in the pipeline.
So that's also very exciting isthat we've got some areas that

(41:16):
might not have a lot of dots onthe map just yet, but get back
to you in a year or two and it'sgoing to look quite filled in, I
think.

SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah.
Well, I know when I talk topotential producers for our
brand and I bring up Audubonbecause we're rolling out our
certification that encompassesall the producers that work with
us and talking to thosepotential producers, if I'm west
anywhere near the mountains,they've either heard about your

(41:45):
program or are alreadycertified.
And it's pretty amazing becausethey're also, like, they get it.
They're enthusiastic about itand they understand why it's
important.
And that...
And they just generally aresteward-minded.
Right.

(42:06):
And it's wonderful to be aroundpeople like that.

SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
It is.
I think...
kind of storytelling when whenyou're a non-profit and like we
are you you've you've got to bescrappy and storytelling is i
think we've done a good job attelling our story to potential
ranchers and that's why i'vebuilt a great program i think
the next frontier of course whatwe're excited about with your

(42:30):
own brand and going forward isum is is that making that
conservation connection withconsumers.
I'm excited to see what kind ofwildfire that starts.
It's hard not to think about,you're probably in your mind
going back to being out on yourskis, living here.

(42:52):
I'm going back to growing upthese kind of idyllic scenes,
but a lot of us either never hadthat or are far removed from it.
And this is, I think, the greathope of the program too is like,
How do we connect people?
And I'm one of them.
I grew up rural, but we'vebecome an urban culture, right?

(43:14):
More of us live in cities thanin the country and on farms.
We're disconnected from theland.
Can this certification, is it asmall yet important way to
reconnect people to the land insome fashion?
I think so.
I think it's, I think it's agreat model.

(43:34):
I think there's a lot, a lot ofroom to grow.
Um, uh, you said somethinginteresting, interesting, just
fascinated me once when, youknow, I've been out here a bunch
of times the last few years, butlike, you know, it, we'd all
like to know our farmer, right?
Right.
That's not possible.
Right.
Or really, or really darn hard.
I shouldn't say impossible, butit's, it's hard.

(43:56):
Right.
You're not going to know.
I mean, if you can, great.
Don't, don't get me wrong.
If you can know your farmer,you, You damn well should.
Yeah, right.
But we don't all have thatluxury.
Right.
So what's the interface if wedon't know our farmer?
What's going to prove thatfarmers and ranchers are
producing things on their landin a way that agrees with your

(44:19):
environmental sensibilities orwhat we as a society should
expect of how the land should betaken care of and to steward our
resources, birds, otherwildlife?

SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
Perfectly said.
I mean, that...
you know, that know your farmer,and I always add, and their
practices.
Right.
because that's important.
You can know a really nicefarmer that has the best
intentions, but really what aretheir practices?
And I'll tell you, okay, when Istarted my career in marketing,
there was no such thing associal media.

(44:49):
Mass media was it.
You could buy a billboard or anad in the Super Bowl or
whatever, and that was it.
That was the only way you

SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
were going to reach people.
And it was still expensive

SPEAKER_01 (44:57):
then.
Yeah, it was still expensive,relatively speaking, then too.
But now I think about that a lotwhen we're capturing people
moments, stories on the farm orwith our other producers that I
want to so bad convey what itfeels like, what it looks like,

(45:20):
because I know not everybody hasthat opportunity.
And I'm very spoiled and I'mvery blessed to be able to enjoy
that every day.
I never tire of giving tours topeople around and showing them
the practices that we have.
And I get tired of talkingsometime, but what I never get

(45:40):
tired of is the feedback.
And people say, oh, I'm so gladI came.
I learned so much and got towitness this.
And I just, I can see theresults with my own eyes.
That never gets old because, youknow, they don't, like you said,
they don't have that opportunityevery day to do that.
So I want to really, I put thepressure on myself to try to

(46:05):
share as much as we can to sharethat experience with them.

SPEAKER_00 (46:09):
I think that's great.
I think you're a greatambassador.
And this project of providing apodcast, providing information,
you do a great job being anadvocate, face-to-face
conferences, things like that.
And then it all has to worktogether.
And our certification, ofcourse, the work happens

(46:31):
person-to-person.
But that...
that bird-friendly seal thatgoes on packaging, that's to
represent, to say, yeah, we aredoing the practices.
That's to provide a truestatement, essentially, to
consumers that, yeah, we'redoing these practices.
We're managing habitat forcattle, but for birds and

(46:53):
biodiversity.

SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
Yeah, and certifications matter.
You know, there's...
There's only so much room on apackage, you know, and I'll do
our shameless plug.
We're putting out ourcertification for the Audubon
Conservation Ranching.
It's going to be on our package.
And that's exactly why we'redoing is because we want to
convey what those practices are.

(47:15):
And we know Audubon hasconsumers that follow what
they're doing and care about,you know, birds and wildlife
habitat.
So how do we make thatconnection that the cow, managed
correctly isn't degrading theenvironment.
In fact, they're in this type ofmanagement, they're helping the

(47:38):
environment, they're helping thebirds.
And so we're very proud to beable to have that out there.
And consumers, you know, yes,connect with the land and the
farmer, but also know thatwhether it's our brand of
Thousand Hills or another brand,your dollar is what drives all

(47:58):
of it.
You know, what you eat derivesall of it.
What you choose as a reflectionof your values really does
matter.
That's what, we wouldn't existif the consumer demand wasn't
there.
Our brand wouldn't exist.
And we have seen, well, youknow, it started in 2020 with

(48:21):
COVID and it's really builtmomentum that consumers are
really looking for they'rediscerning about what food
they're going to eat and whatthey're going to support and,
and how they, how they're madethat really food is a lifestyle.
And it's amazing.
I mean, uh, the phraseinternally is the wind is at our

(48:42):
back after 20, after 20 someyears, the wind pushing the rock
up the hill, the boulder up thehill, the wind is at our back.
And now we have to responsiblygo forward.

UNKNOWN (48:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:57):
You know, like it's a moment that we have that I
don't want to waste and I wantto handle in a way that, you
know, with integrity and deliverwhat people are looking for.
And that's, you know, in thisprogram, we're doing that
together.

SPEAKER_00 (49:15):
Right.
And I, it's hard for me to, youknow, I don't have a crystal
ball, but it's hard for me tosee people demanding less of
their food system.
You know, that's the wind atyour back.
That's the, that's the trendline, which gets you excited to
think about like, okay, you'vebeen at it for 20 years.
What about 20 years from now?

(49:36):
Not that we're itching to growolder, faster.
No, no.

SPEAKER_01 (49:39):
Today's good.
Let's enjoy today.
Let's enjoy.
Let's, let's cherish that.
But I, I mean, I feel the sameway.
I don't, I can't imaginereversing course.
I just can't imagine that.
in our collective society onwhat we're valuing as important.
You know, there's some prettymajor things happening right now

(50:00):
around human health and how thatconnects to the land and to the
practices of agriculture.
And I think that's only going tobe, you know, that's only going
to raise awareness of this wholeidea of regenerative
agriculture.
And, you know, there's just somany paths you could go down but

(50:23):
you know we've all experienceddisease and our families and and
there's a reason why and itwasn't always that way and it's
not normal in my view so there'sthings we can do about that we
work together and have an openmind and support a different way

(50:43):
of doing things

SPEAKER_00 (50:44):
right well it i think what i see too is just
that that people want to makePeople like action, right?
And you can, it does start withsomething small.
You can protect, you can protectthe stream that runs into the
Mississippi.
It's not a big stream backthere, right?
You can, you can decide, yeah, Iwas buying, I've been buying

(51:07):
beef that's imported fromTasmania or Australia, but I
can, I can purchase ThousandHills beef or anything else
with, with the Audubon certifiedbird friendly seal.
Right.
That's, we can make these smallactions.
You know, we have, we can votewith our wallet.
We can, I mean, it's, it's hardnot to be frustrated sometimes

(51:30):
against an ag industrial complexthat, you know, has, um, we're
behind the eight ball on habitatand grassland birds are
struggling.
And, you know, the farmers inthis line of work, it's not,
it's not always as easy.
It's not a, uh, it's not a fieldthat's just laden with subsidies
for now.

SPEAKER_01 (51:49):
None.
None.

SPEAKER_00 (51:49):
Um, there's not, there's, they don't have all the
built in advantages, but, butsmall actions that people take
do make a difference and theymatter.
And eventually over time, youjust have to believe that they
add up.
So that's, that's what gives mehope working person to person.
So I hope we'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 (52:05):
You know, I was looking around for the
newsletter that I got yesterday.
It was, um, green backedGazette.
It was a part of Audubon.
It's, it's, it's some form, somelike a regional publication, uh,
But when you talk about doingsome little thing, they talked
about changing the monoculturein your yard and not just having

(52:27):
Kentucky bluegrass.
And that's near and dear to myheart because my first business
was an organic lawn carecompany.
So back in the 80s, I waspreaching organic.
Don't worry about just havingKentucky bluegrass.
Don't worry about thedandelions.
You know, use organicfertilizer.
Let there be diversity in yourgrass.
But then, you know, it's like Ididn't even make the connection.

(52:49):
I knew we were going to talktoday.
It's like, oh, yeah.
Well, then it's also birdfriendly, too.
If you have flowering plants andyou have diversity in your grass
and you're not applyingchemicals, that's a huge amount
of chemicals that could be justeliminated, right?
If we just managed our lawnsdifferently and that runoff, you

(53:11):
know, it's easy to point at bigegg.
Sure.
But we're doing that in our own.
We all have, we all have, well,a lot of people, not everybody,
but we have a little piece ofland that we're managing.

SPEAKER_00 (53:23):
This is near and dear to my heart.
Cause I, I, uh,

SPEAKER_01 (53:27):
I can't believe we are kindred spirits.

SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
We are.
Well, I'm, you know, I manage, Imanage about a quarter acre.
Okay.
In, in Minneapolis.
But two years ago I tore up myfront lawn.
And it's all native prairiehabitat now.
You did?
I did.
Do the

SPEAKER_01 (53:41):
neighbors hate you?

SPEAKER_00 (53:42):
You'd be surprised.
I mean, I shouldn't say you'd besurprised.
Minnesota has this neat programcalled Lawns to Legumes, and I
haven't gotten one of thesegrants, but they've incentivized
people with some grants to justget this work started on their
small...
I mean, I think I remember thisfactoid correctly, but

(54:06):
there's...
there's more lawn grass thanthere, than there is corn in
terms of acreage in thiscountry.

SPEAKER_01 (54:14):
Wouldn't surprise me.
Wouldn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_00 (54:17):
So somebody, when they see this can don't, don't
quote me on it.
Go, go fact check.
But I, I'm, I'm about 99% surethat's right.
But I guess that goes to thepoint of like, so my little
project, right.
My whole front yard, we moved ina couple of years ago.
Um, I killed off the Kentuckybluegrass or maybe more
crabgrass.

(54:37):
Yeah, that's right.
And now I've got a diverselittle prairie.
Now it's small, but it's what Ican control.
And you know what?
Birds come back.
There's bees buzzing.
It's amazing.
And in a way, whether you have aquarter acre, four acres, 40
acres, 400 acres, or 4,000 or40,000, like some of our
ranchers, you do what you can tomanage habitat.

UNKNOWN (55:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:00):
Well, guess what?
I've got an answer for yourtrivia right here in the
Greenback Gazette, CentralMinnesota Audubon.
So in the United States, it sayswe have 44 million acres of
lawns.
That's about half of the corn,but that's just lawns.
And then there's 2 million acresof golf courses.

(55:22):
78% of the land is privatelyowned.
We have paved an area over thesize of Ohio.
That doesn't help.
Every 30 seconds, a footballfield of natural areas
disappears to development.

(55:42):
Wow.
Okay, here's another factoidabout your 3 billion birds.
That's, according to thisgazette, that's a third of the
bird population.

SPEAKER_00 (55:54):
That's correct.
I probably failed to mentionthat for context, but not
insignificant.

SPEAKER_01 (56:00):
A third?

SPEAKER_00 (56:00):
A

SPEAKER_01 (56:01):
third.
Wow.
That is crazy.
So I highly recommend theGreenback

SPEAKER_00 (56:09):
Gazette.
Right.
So the visual, right, is like ifyou saw, if you're 10 years old
in 1972 or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (56:17):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
And there's three metal arks on a post.
Yep.
There's two today.

SPEAKER_01 (56:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:23):
Just like that.

SPEAKER_01 (56:24):
And I, well, they used to be everywhere when I was
younger.
Now they are rare to find, youknow, so it's, it's real.
Um, yeah.
So, and then they talk aboutthis lawn too, um, reduced lawn
areas, plant native species.
I'll put a plug in for Minnesotanative landscape, friends of

(56:46):
ours down 94 and St.
Michael.
They have a whole bunch ofdifferent mixes of native
plants.
plants that you can buy enoughto seed the area of this table
if you wanted to so that youknow native species are are
great and we mix those inactually in our seed mix they're

(57:09):
very expensive you can't reallyif the acreage we're grazing you
can't really just put in nativesbut we put in about five percent
natives into our normal cocktailof grasses and legumes just
hoping that something will catchon and, and propagate from
there.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (57:29):
Yeah.
And eventually they do.
I think that's it.
Native restoration is hard.
It's, it's a lot easier to just,it's been a lot easier for us to
just like tear up prairies andpave them over.
It's, it's hard work.
You know, it's complicated.
I have a bunch of friendswho've, you know, who've tried
to do, you know, manage habitatand bring back prairie.

(57:52):
And some years it just doesn't,you need weather conditions to
break.
Right.
Right.
Just like you needed that snowto ski.
We didn't have snow for a while.
So things have to break, but ifyou stay at it eventually, like
that seat, you can get that seedbed cooking again the right way.

SPEAKER_01 (58:07):
Oh, we've seen some areas, especially the areas that
haven't been tilled for like 80years.
But if they were justperiodically, like every 20
years or so farm kind of wentand right.
Usually it's, It's poor soil,gravelly soil that someone
decided they didn't want to workanymore, so they put it in CRP.
But in those areas, we have beenable to get the native seed bank

(58:29):
to come alive.
And that's like magic when yousee that.
All of a sudden, it's there whenthe conditions are just right,
the moisture, the heat, thesoil, the trampling, the animal
impact.
And then here comes smallbluestem popping up everywhere.
Right.
And you're like, how long wasthat sitting in the seed bank?

(58:50):
you know, 50 years, 75 years?

SPEAKER_00 (58:52):
Just, you know, I know that that's good for birds,
right?
Like diversity is just importantfor birds.
Diversity in terms of differentkinds of plants, birds and
different pollinators, right?
They favor certain kinds,there's different seeds,
different structure, right?
Some birds like the plants thatare shorter, some like them in

(59:15):
the little mid, some like, youknow, but...
How does that go over with thecattle?

SPEAKER_01 (59:21):
It's interesting.
That's a good question.
At first, I noticed they wouldlike, well, I don't know that
plant.
I'm not sure if I'm going to eatthat plant.
I've never seen that plantbefore.
But then they come around, andthen different plants have
different uses for differenttypes of the season.
So those native plants are greatfor winter grazing because the

(59:45):
stalks hold up.
They're not buried in the snow.
There's a, from what I've read,there's a good protein
carbohydrate mix that's greatfor wintering.
So that's where, they usuallyleave, in the case of the
bluestems, they leave that untilwinter, and then they're more
than happy to consume it.

(01:00:06):
But in general, they lovediversity.
I mean, they're always searchingout for, they'll eat leaves off
a brush, they'll eat leaves offof trees, they'll graze, of
course, on the ground.
They'll graze some plants downlower than others.
They'll leave some for the nexttime around.
It's hard to predict whatthey're going to do because they

(01:00:27):
select by what they need at thattime.
And that's pretty fascinating, Ithink, is that they're smart
enough to know what they need.
We don't need to tell them.
And we don't need to force them.
If we force them, well, thenthat's not in their best health.
They innately know.
And if you don't give them thatroom to choose, and that

(01:00:51):
includes weather, you know, belike, oh, don't you have your
cattle in a barn?
No, we give them enough area inthe winter so that they can find
the spot that's out of wind in atree stand or in a, in a valley
or whatever's happening with thesun.
They get out in the sun and getout of the wind.
They'll figure it all out ontheir own.
They know how to survive if youallow them to.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:14):
Sounds like your cattle are me when I was a kid,
right?
Yeah.
We started with just go figureit out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, well, I suppose to closethis

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:25):
up, is there any other thoughts that you want to
share?
I'd encourage, you know, Audubonis a great organization.
If you're not familiar withAudubon, go to our website.
Just take a spin.
Yeah.
I think that'd be great.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:36):
A lot of good information.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:37):
A lot of good information.
I think the one thing I'd saybefore I give my own shameless
plug is, maybe at a most basiclevel, we've been talking about
grasslands and grassland birds,and some of that can get a
little niche.
I understand that.
I think what I found probablythe coolest thing about Audubon

(01:01:58):
is birds are really cool andeminently relatable.
Everybody's got a favorite bird.
Everybody.
Got a couple people manning.
Manning, the tech in here, Max,Maddie B, they got favorite
birds.
I guarantee it.
Can change day to day.
Mine is the sharp-tailed grouse,but maybe tomorrow it'll be a

(01:02:19):
different one.
I bet you

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:20):
have

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:21):
a favorite bird.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:22):
I do.
Well, and it goes back to what Iwas thinking about.
My mom loves birds, and shealways has.
She saved up something.
I think it was off of bakingsoda.
Arm& Hammer baking soda.
You save up the seals.
And she got her own set ofAudubon trading cards.
And so I just realized how muchof an influence she's had on me

(01:02:44):
being interested in birds.
But, of course, in the winter,the male cardinal is just
amazing.
Yeah.
Just stunning.
Red on white.
Yep.
Red on white.
Shy.
Yeah.
That, you know, they don't comearound and let themselves be
known very much.
But if you put out blacksunflower seeds, they'll come

(01:03:05):
around.
So that would be it.
And it changes with the seasons.
You know, I would say in thefall, it's the wood duck that I
really want to see.
I just want to see them.
I had a little thought while youwere talking about this too.
You know, right across thedriveway here, one day I came
across two bald eagles entangledtogether.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:27):
Oh, fighting.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:28):
And I thought something was wrong.
You know, I'm like getting mychainsaw.
I got to cut the branch down.
I got to get them.
Are they, you know, what's goingon?
Are they wired together?
What's going on?
And so I was able to get thebranch off the tree.
And as soon as the day felt thetree, fall the the talons came
out and they both flew away wedon't need your help yeah

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:47):
that's right i thought oh i should have known
kids don't get involved see imean this is it the birds birds
everybody's got a bird storyfavorite that that's what i you
know maybe this is my edit onthe fly i mean that that's a
really cool thing aboutrepresenting audubon and just
engaging people at a base leveli want to tell them about all
the cool stuff that we do but itcan just start with like, what's

(01:04:07):
your favorite bird?
Sure.
Everybody's got one.
I was just, I was just onvacation in Mexico.
It's good to be back, but I sawa hooded Oriole.
I saw this bird up in a palmtree.
I was like, kind of looks likean Oriole, but, and boom, I'm on
my phone looking it up.
What is it?
And it's fun to connect with theworld like that.
So yeah.
And conservation ranching, go toaudubon.org slash ranching,

(01:04:29):
check, learn a little bit moreabout our program, how you can
support it.
Um, see who the producers andsome of the brands are that are
involved and go from there butum yeah birds are cool that that
that's that's my they're funthey're cool and and super
relatable and and those justhaving that kind of small spark
can can set you whether whetheryou're a kid and you're lucky

(01:04:51):
enough to grow up on a farmmaybe like we were or you're or
or even you're older and you'rejust surfing the net and finding
something new a new hobby to getinto you going, going in,
getting into, into birds can bea path to like just learning
something new and reallyconnecting with the world.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:07):
And birds are everywhere.
They're everywhere.
You know, live in an urban area.
There's birds.
Backyard birds.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
That's cool.
And most wildlife, that's nottrue, but birds, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:20):
Right.
It is.
Yeah.
They really, they, they span ourworld.
I mean, one, you know, like, uh,Not to bore you with a strategic
plan, but what we talk about,you know, you wonder what we
talk about at Audubon behind thescenes.
Yeah, what do you

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:33):
bird nerds talk about anyway?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:34):
I mean, the scientists are just reminding me
how little I know, but a lot ofit is about hemispheric
conservation, right?
I mean, that sounds like headystuff, right?
Yeah, a lot of syllables there.
A lot of the, some birds, Imean, some birds stay here.
They ride out these winters,right?
And a lot of them leave.
A lot of them leave.
Maybe the smart ones leave.

(01:05:56):
Smart ones leave, yeah.
But some of our favoritegrassland birds, they go down to
South America.
That's

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:04):
amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:05):
You can sit here.
We've had this wholeconversation.
We haven't even brought that.
I mean, they're just so cool.
There's so much to learn.
Man, I just find thatridiculously fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:15):
Yes.
Well, let's leave it at that,Anthony.
Thank you so much for taking thetime.
You've been a great partner inthis whole movement of
regenerative and managed grazingand livestock impact.
You've been out here.
You've been a friend.
I appreciate you hopping on thepodcast and sharing all this
great information with peopletoday.
It's just a pleasure.
Let's do more of it.
All right.

(01:06:35):
Let's do it.
The wind's at our backs.
Have a good evening.