February 20, 2025 • 27 mins
It's time to talk about the Department of Education! As the Trump administration makes move to reduce or close the Department of Education, parents have questions. This week, Drs. Alicia and Stephanie Rolin talk about the history of the Department of Education, its role in education today, and what kind of changes might be expected.
This is not intended to be medical advice, and the content is solely the responsibility of the authors and does not necessarily represent the official views of their employers or funders
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We're gonna have to go back and see do I start every episode? You probably do because I never want to start!
(00:10):
Welcome to this episode of the Rolinn Forward podcast. And then I always say I'm Dr.
Alicia Rolin. That's the first line I say every time. Do you want to go? I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin.
I'm Dr. Stephanie Rolin. And this is the Rolin Forward podcast.
Rolin Forward, Dr. Sister Science Facts.
We bring science to you and we love science. We've always loved science. But we think especially
(00:35):
now in these changing times, it's really important to bring science directly to you.
I'm a psychiatrist who does NIH-funded research and also provides clinical care.
I'm a pediatrician. I also do some NIH-funded research and I also provide some clinical care.
I think you're just copying me. And today we're going to talk about the Department of Education.
(00:56):
It's a pretty large department. It's actually the smallest of departments, but it's a pretty
large department. It has a lot of functions. So we're just going to do a brief overview
of what is the Department of Education? What does it actually do? Why do people want to
be eliminated? And can this actually be done? And then what it might look like if these changes
were put into place. So the families that we work with, they're concerned and we're concerned too.
(01:19):
As physicians, as a parent, I'm concerned about this rhetoric I'm seeing about the
Department of Education, knowing what a pivotal role it is playing in the lives of so many families
that I work with. And then being a psychiatrist and a pediatrician, we think that we're well suited
to talk about this topic because a lot of the patients and families that we work with rely on
(01:43):
the Department of Education for programs that they administer like special education,
IEP programs. But before we get into that, let's just start at the top. Alicia,
what is the Department of Education? The Department of Education is a cabinet level
department. President Jimmy Carter split one department into two and those two departments
(02:05):
became the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Human Services,
which we've talked about a lot in the past. And the Department of Education is actually the
smallest of all the cabinet agencies. It has just over 4,000 employees. And the budget in 2024 was
$238 billion, which is down quite a bit. In 2022, it was more than double that at $637 billion.
(02:33):
The role of the Department of Education is actually quite nuanced as a lot of
powers with regard to education is split between the state and the federal government.
I've heard about the states versus federal government issue before.
And there's been a lot of strife about how much power the federal government should have with
regards to education. The main role of the Department of Education is about providing funding
(02:57):
to states and then monitoring how that funding is used. It sounds like a good idea to provide
funding and then monitor the use of that money. They also collect data on schools in America.
They focus on key issues in education and make recommendations for education reform.
And then they also make sure that there's no discrimination within the educational system
(03:19):
and that students have equal access to education.
What the Department of Education does not do is that it does not oversee
school curriculum, educational standards, and it does not create new schools. It doesn't create
new colleges. It doesn't hire teachers. It doesn't decide what students are being taught day to day.
It is simply an organization that helps provide assistance for schools. It helps provide
(03:42):
recommendations for educational reform.
So, Alicia, based on what you're telling me, the Department of Education provides money
for certain policies that are decided by the federal government, and then they monitor how
that money is being used and if the policies are being put into place. That sounds great.
So what's the issue?
This has been a really controversial Department of Government for a lot longer than I expected.
(04:07):
Really? I've only started hearing about it.
It was created by a bill that was signed in 1979. And one of the major goals of Reagan's
presidential campaign in 1980 was the elimination of the Department of Education.
Okay. So like immediately.
Immediately. And that has continued to be a longstanding interest of the Republican Party.
(04:28):
There has been this desire to eliminate the Department of Education due to this belief
that the authority to regulate education should belong with the states, and it's not specifically
given to the federal government and the constitution, and therefore this department is not necessary.
I remember Trump talking about taking apart the Department of Education back in 2016.
(04:48):
That's true. So this was a part of Trump's previous campaign, part of now his Project 2025.
And this has been kind of a longstanding thread of Trump's campaign.
And overall, it sounds like people are pretty split on this.
People are super split. In a study done in 2024 by the Pew Research Center,
(05:11):
about 45% of the general population found that the Department of Education was unfavorable.
44 had a favorable opinion. When you split it up by parties, it's actually a little bit more clear.
64% of Republican members have an unfavorable view of the Department of Education,
while on the other hand, 62% of Democratic members have a more favorable view.
So it seems like this is one of the things that's pretty split down party lines.
(05:34):
The Department of Education has been around for about 45 years.
Is it even possible to eliminate it at this point?
Like a lot of things that's happening, there's been a lot of say that we'll sign some executive
orders and things will disappear. That actually is not the case for the Department of Education.
It was created by an act of Congress and to eliminate it, it will need to be eliminated
by an act of Congress. That being said, USAID, RIP.
(05:57):
I'm not ready for that. My understanding is that a bull has been introduced into the House
to dismantle the Department of Education by the end of 2026.
Now, normally we don't go into the details and read complete bills on this show.
We refer you to the website so you can look them up yourselves and see it.
But I think in this case, it's worth reading this one out loud. It is one sentence.
(06:21):
Oh my God, did I close it? Where did it go? My one sentence. I want to make sure I get
my one sentence correctly. Okay. Quote, the Department of Education shall terminate on
December 31st, 2026. That's the whole thing.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 words, three of those being a date.
This is not the first time the same exact 10 word bill has been introduced. It was introduced in
(06:44):
2016 and they didn't make any changes to it. I mean, this is probably a bill that Doge would
love, the Department of Governmental Efficiency. It's 10 words. Everyone can read it together
out loud and then vote. The bill itself, though, is more controversial than you might think.
So we've talked about how the Republican Party overall has a pretty negative view of the
(07:06):
Department of Education and it has had a longstanding desire to get rid of it.
But every time bills like this are introduced, they actually don't get a lot of traction.
And that's because red states, rural states, tend to benefit the most or receive the most funding
from the Department of Education. My understanding is that they receive a
lot of funding from the Department of Education. So last year, more than 60 Republicans in the
(07:31):
House, in addition to the Democrats, rejected a bill to eliminate the Department of Education,
realizing what an impact it would have on their own communities.
So while it might not be quite feasible to officially cut the Department of Education,
the administration is considering a lot of other steps that could essentially gut the
(07:55):
Department of Education without officially closing it. You can unofficially close it without
actually closing it. So what we're going to do next is talk about what that's going to look like,
what that could look like in order to help parents, families, and people prepare for these
changes. And we're going to split it into talking about different phases of education.
We're going to start by talking about early childhood education, so sort of everything
(08:18):
before kindergarten. Then we'll talk about grade school, K to 12. And then we're going to talk
about after that, postgraduate, college, grad school, that kind of stuff. So Alicia, get us
started. What's going to happen to these early education programs for kids who are before
kindergarten? There are a lot of early childhood programs that you might have heard of, things like
(08:40):
Head Start and the Child Care Development Block Grants. What's really interesting is that these
are actually not part of the Department of Education. They're part of the Department of
Health and Human Services. So massive restructuring of the Department of Education or just an outright
closure wouldn't directly affect these programs. But, spoiler alert, they're being targeted and
(09:04):
changed as we speak just through another mechanism at HHS. The Department of Education does oversee
and does provide funding for some smaller learning programs and some early childhood research.
Those would be affected, but they're not as widespread as Head Start. So I think where
we're going to see a lot of changes is actually K to 12 education. And this is probably a perfect
(09:28):
place to start talking about something called Title I funding. Yes. A large portion of the
Department of Education budget goes specifically to Title I. Title I provides financial assistance
to school districts for children from low-income families. And the idea is to provide all children
a fair, equitable, high-quality education and to close educational achievement gaps.
(09:54):
So some of this money might be used to acquire technology or provide mental health services in
schools to make sure internet is available or that teachers have access to curricula for remedial
instruction materials. Again, the Department of Education is not choosing the curricula,
but they are able to pay for it through Title I. Closing the Department of Education would not
(10:20):
undo Title I. Title I was created by an act of Congress and it would require a separate act
of Congress in order to end the program. But closure of the Department of Education would
definitely lead to changes on how Title I and other simpler programs would administer funding
to states. One of the mechanisms proposed to provide funding to states with a closure of
(10:45):
the Department of Education is to transition funding from all of these separate little programs
like Title I into a large block grant where states would get a set amount of money for
a list of 15 things. My understanding is that there's concern that this would lead to so much
confusion at the state and district level, which would really delay or fail to get money to where
(11:10):
it's needed. It's expected that Title I funding would be drastically reduced or altogether
eliminated if you transition to a block grant and that a lot of the funding would fall into the state.
So these programs that are aimed at closing educational gaps, they would essentially
(11:30):
be dramatically cut, reduced, pulled back, and we might see worsening gaps in educational achievement.
And there are current bills that have been proposed to Congress for this exact purpose.
There's current legislation that proposes sending K-12 funding directly back to states as block
grants. It doesn't specifically mention Title I, but it's assumed that this will be rolled into a
(11:54):
package of a block grant. This would be a major shakeup for schools. In addition to the restructuring
of funding that supports programs closing educational gaps, my understanding is that
special education is also under fire right now. Special education is the practice of educating
(12:14):
students in a way that accommodates for their individual differences, their disabilities,
and their special needs. In the United States, 95% of students with disabilities obtain education
in the public school system. Wow, that's huge. It sounds like the public school has really made
strides in terms of being accessible and available for students who may have learning differences.
(12:40):
And that was largely done by a bill called IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act,
and that ensures that students with disabilities are offered free education tailored to their needs.
The Department of Education is the one that helps monitor, fund, and keep this law in place.
So while schools would still need to offer special education, the part of the government that ensures
(13:04):
that the law is being followed would be gone. The Department of Education sets rules for states,
districts, and schools about how children should be identified for possible disabilities,
for how families, parents, and schools should work together to create what's called an IEP,
an Individualized Education Program. It defines the menu of supports and services that kids should
receive. And these programs can be expensive, which is why it's important that the Department
(13:28):
of Education both provides funding and then monitors to make sure that schools are providing it.
In 2024, the Department of Education oversaw about $14 billion for special education-related
programs, and it served about 7.5 million children across the United States.
That's amazing because there's a time period in this country where those children may not have
(13:49):
had access to public education. And these special education plans are not only for children that
have dyslexia or other types of learning disabilities. They're used for a lot of different
things. Including anaphylaxic allergies. So if your child needs an EpiPen, your school can create
a special learning plan, making sure that you have access to an EpiPen. Making sure that school is
(14:13):
safe for you and that you have the same access to a public education as a child who doesn't have a
life-threatening food allergy. So I think overall, like, should we be worried about special education
in the future? Super unclear, super hazy. There are laws that are protecting educational status,
but right now that's monitored by an apartment. That might be eliminated. And it seems like a lot
(14:36):
of these monitoring requirements are going to be transitioned to the state. And you can imagine
that with all the different states and districts, that there's going to be perhaps differences in
how these plans are implemented and monitored, which will then lead to inequitable access to
education. So with the elimination of the Department of Education, we can expect to see major changes
(15:01):
in how Title I funding, which aims to close educational gaps, is done. We expect to see major
changes in how special education is monitored. And the third area we can expect to see major
changes is in school voucher programs. There was an executive order that was signed called
Expand Educational Opportunities for American Families. And essentially, the goal is to provide
(15:26):
more choice for families, that families can choose what school their child goes to, instead of being
assigned by the school district. That, on paper, sounds great. It does sound great. So what's the
problem? The vouchers include the opportunity to attend private school without having to pay
private school tuition. So that we're taking funds that are earmarked for public schools,
(15:48):
but diverting it towards private schools. And Alicia, my understanding is there's a lot of
concerns when we start taking public funds and giving it to private schools. There's a limited
amount of resources available. And when you start taking money away from public schools,
you're kind of draining the system. And public schools are already underfunded as they are.
(16:09):
There's also a concern about giving public funds to a private institution, including the fact that
these private institutions, they're not accountable to the same standards that public schools are,
that they don't have to provide the same accessible level of education or other supports that public
schools provide to people. So they can kind of choose who they want to be a part of their
(16:34):
private school community or not. They also have really limited oversight by the government.
Yeah, private schools can kind of do what they want. And so they're getting public money,
even if that's not in line with priorities that have been set by the public schools.
When money is diverted in this way, it can allow schools to choose students in a way that is
(16:55):
worsening segregation. It also allows families to choose schools based on demographics. It allows
families from higher income brackets to travel further and to choose, quote, better schools than
others, which further drains the resources away from public schools as people with resources are
(17:17):
trying to make decisions to sort of game the system. And all these public funds are behind it,
helping this happen so that we see public schools become an area with even fewer resources and
fewer supports. Then there's also the concern about a lot of private schools being religious.
And should public funds be funding religious schools that have agendas that aren't necessarily
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in line with the state guidelines and curriculum for education? One thing I remember a lot of
learning in school was that separation of church and state, and that that was one of the founding
principles of the United States. And this is an example of kind of moving backwards, where
certain type of religious ideas seem to be getting more mixed into the public principles that we're
(18:04):
seeing. So maybe increased choice isn't as appealing as it sounds initially, or isn't as
beneficial as it sounds initially. I think those are the major things for the K-12 educational
changes. Things like school lunches actually hopefully will not be affected because they're
housed through the Department of Agriculture and not the Department of Education. Fascinating.
(18:27):
So many different departments. We've already touched upon the Department of Health and Human
Services, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Education. Very split. So subdivided.
We're not saying that this is the best form of government there is when we're splitting
education between all these different departments. But we're also not saying that eliminating every
(18:47):
single department, including the Department of Education, is going to lead to better outcomes.
It's funny though that this like split might protect certain aspects of education.
I hope that children continue to receive school lunches. It's a really important program.
Yeah. Let's take a minute to talk about what happens after high school. How is the Department
of Education involved in college and what changes might we expect to see?
(19:12):
The Department of Education is responsible for the gift that keeps on giving, student loans.
Student loans. Oh, I've gotten that gift. The Department of Education oversees Federal Student
Aid and student loans in a variety of ways for students attending any higher education,
including through things like FAFSA and Pell Grants and Federal Student Loans. And unfortunately,
(19:37):
if we dismantle the Department of Education, your student debt won't disappear.
I really hope that it might. I hated my student loans, but I was also really grateful that I had
the opportunity to borrow money from the federal government to attend medical school, something
that I would not have been able to do without the assistance of federal loans. I think the average
(20:00):
debt for a graduating medical school is over $200,000, and that only accounts for the cost
of medical school, not for the cost of undergraduate education. It's so much money.
And the ending of the Department of Education doesn't necessarily mean the end of student aid.
It's thought that it would transition over to the Department of Treasury. Maybe it would go to the
(20:23):
states. And in some cases, people are thinking that it might be going private or to for-profit
institutions. It hasn't quite been outlined, but it seems like student loans will still be available
just in a different manner. And if you already have loans, those definitely aren't getting
forgiven. The Public Student Loan Forgiveness Program provides forgiveness of your loans
(20:46):
after 10 years of steady payments and 10 years of public service. Then there's a possibility of
applying and having qualified loans forgiven. That program sounds like it may be under attack.
It's unclear, and it's sad because we know so many doctors that have been working steadily
towards public student loan forgiveness in public jobs where they're providing health care to their
(21:11):
community. Teachers are also eligible for that program. And as we have been talking about, public
schools are significantly underfunded and teachers are underpaid. That is a nice way to say it. Yes,
teachers are significantly underpaid for the work that they do. Underpaid. And when you're working
in these types of public school positions, part of the trade-off has been when you started the job
(21:35):
that after 10 years, your loans would be forgiven. And so it's hard to see these things changing now
that it's not your loans that are going to go away. Those are going to follow you. But the
opportunity for forgiveness sounds like it might be eliminated with these types of changes that
they're looking for. And the way that we're paying loans back has been under attack. We can move on.
I think student loans is this whole own episode. Student loans have been under attack. I have gotten
(21:57):
many a letter from the student loan website about all of the income base for payment options that
are currently in court and all of my payments are frozen. It's such a mess. It's a whole thing.
What's the longest you spent on the phone with your federal student loan provider?
I think it's like five and a half hours for me. And it's only because I gave up.
I hang up. I just, I mean, you can't get through to anybody.
(22:19):
I mean, especially not now that there's no one working.
So there are other ways that the Department of Education oversees secondary school education.
But loans is definitely a major, major place that people are worried about and talking about.
The Department of Education also provides institutional funding for higher education. And
the idea is to make higher education more accessible for families and for students.
(22:43):
And so they provide funding to colleges and four-year schools that have a larger percentage of
students that come from lower income communities. And they provide some funding for HBCUs or
historically black colleges and universities. And that funding, that's an important source
of support for people who may not otherwise have access to college and university.
(23:06):
And the outcomes from these programs have been phenomenal.
The concern is that if we reduce the funding, if we cut this funding, if the department goes away,
that college enrollment and college access is going to drop and that the divide is going to grow.
So with all of these changes coming, some to early childhood education,
a lot to K-12 education and definitely changes to secondary school education. What now?
(23:34):
A lot is really hazy. And I think it's really unclear. It's interesting because a lot of
access to education, education regulation are by federal law. But those federal laws are
implemented, monitored, funded by the Department of Education. And if we transition to another
source, it's going to be a period of chaos. And that even though the laws are still there,
(23:59):
if no one is monitoring and enforcing the laws, do the laws even exist? This is the tree falling in
the forest and no one's there to hear it. And so there's concerns that these changes will
worsen inequities in education and overall create a more divided, unequal society.
And I think what it will come down to as we possibly are transitioning a lot more power to
(24:22):
states for education than the federal government is that states are really going to have to fill
in the gaps. States are going to have to provide more funding. States are going to have to build
more systems, create more support. So there's concerns that states that have lower incomes,
states that have lower populations, states that are more rural than urban are going to have an
unequal burden by the elimination of the Department of Education. Because like you mentioned,
(24:45):
a lot of Republicans have been against this in the past because in fact, their states have
benefited from the existence of the Department of Education. And so these are the exact states
that may suffer the most if it were to go away. And then there's concerns about how this will
affect students with disabilities, the vast majority, which depend on public school education.
(25:05):
And that as we see these changes take place, there's concern that the elimination of these
special education programs will mean that schools either aren't providing the level of education
that someone needs or that they are in a safe environment, let's say for a student with a
life-threatening food allergy. If no one's monitoring, if no one's providing recommendations
on what resources should be available with children with disabilities, how are we sure
(25:29):
that we're meeting the requirements? As I think has been a trend throughout the beginning of this
administration, it's really unclear what's going to happen. I have no idea. There have been a lot
of statements about cutting, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut all these departments and branches and
institutions and very little about how we're going to monitor the things that we're cutting.
(25:54):
And what impact that's going to have on people's quality of life. We're all about, oh, governmental
efficiency, but government programs exist to help people and to help families. And like Alicia says,
it's really unclear what's going to happen as these changes take place. We're already seeing
a lot of impact on the Department of Education. And so we will be here to try to understand and
(26:16):
follow along with what's happening as it's happening. And I think as families are trying
to understand how this will impact them and their children, this is where where you live really
matters and how your state is structured. And if you're already seeing changes in your state,
in your area, you can always send us an email. Our email is Rolin, R-O-L-I-N, forward show,
(26:42):
at gmail.com. You can also reach out to us on the socials. We want to hear from you if you've
already noticed changes. What have you seen? What are you experiencing? How is it affecting your
family? We'll keep following the news and we'll share updates as they evolve. Thank you for
Thank you for listening. And this is the Rolin Forward podcast. I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin. I'm Dr.
(27:04):
Stephanie Rolin. Until next time.
We're gonna have to go back and see do I start every episode? You probably do because I never want to start!
(00:10):
Welcome to this episode of the Rolinn Forward podcast. And then I always say I'm Dr.
Alicia Rolin. That's the first line I say every time. Do you want to go? I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin.
I'm Dr. Stephanie Rolin. And this is the Rolin Forward podcast.
Rolin Forward, Dr. Sister Science Facts.
We bring science to you and we love science. We've always loved science. But we think especially
(00:35):
now in these changing times, it's really important to bring science directly to you.
I'm a psychiatrist who does NIH-funded research and also provides clinical care.
I'm a pediatrician. I also do some NIH-funded research and I also provide some clinical care.
I think you're just copying me. And today we're going to talk about the Department of Education.
(00:56):
It's a pretty large department. It's actually the smallest of departments, but it's a pretty
large department. It has a lot of functions. So we're just going to do a brief overview
of what is the Department of Education? What does it actually do? Why do people want to
be eliminated? And can this actually be done? And then what it might look like if these changes
were put into place. So the families that we work with, they're concerned and we're concerned too.
(01:19):
As physicians, as a parent, I'm concerned about this rhetoric I'm seeing about the
Department of Education, knowing what a pivotal role it is playing in the lives of so many families
that I work with. And then being a psychiatrist and a pediatrician, we think that we're well suited
to talk about this topic because a lot of the patients and families that we work with rely on
(01:43):
the Department of Education for programs that they administer like special education,
IEP programs. But before we get into that, let's just start at the top. Alicia,
what is the Department of Education? The Department of Education is a cabinet level
department. President Jimmy Carter split one department into two and those two departments
(02:05):
became the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Human Services,
which we've talked about a lot in the past. And the Department of Education is actually the
smallest of all the cabinet agencies. It has just over 4,000 employees. And the budget in 2024 was
$238 billion, which is down quite a bit. In 2022, it was more than double that at $637 billion.
(02:33):
The role of the Department of Education is actually quite nuanced as a lot of
powers with regard to education is split between the state and the federal government.
I've heard about the states versus federal government issue before.
And there's been a lot of strife about how much power the federal government should have with
regards to education. The main role of the Department of Education is about providing funding
(02:57):
to states and then monitoring how that funding is used. It sounds like a good idea to provide
funding and then monitor the use of that money. They also collect data on schools in America.
They focus on key issues in education and make recommendations for education reform.
And then they also make sure that there's no discrimination within the educational system
(03:19):
and that students have equal access to education.
What the Department of Education does not do is that it does not oversee
school curriculum, educational standards, and it does not create new schools. It doesn't create
new colleges. It doesn't hire teachers. It doesn't decide what students are being taught day to day.
It is simply an organization that helps provide assistance for schools. It helps provide
(03:42):
recommendations for educational reform.
So, Alicia, based on what you're telling me, the Department of Education provides money
for certain policies that are decided by the federal government, and then they monitor how
that money is being used and if the policies are being put into place. That sounds great.
So what's the issue?
This has been a really controversial Department of Government for a lot longer than I expected.
(04:07):
Really? I've only started hearing about it.
It was created by a bill that was signed in 1979. And one of the major goals of Reagan's
presidential campaign in 1980 was the elimination of the Department of Education.
Okay. So like immediately.
Immediately. And that has continued to be a longstanding interest of the Republican Party.
(04:28):
There has been this desire to eliminate the Department of Education due to this belief
that the authority to regulate education should belong with the states, and it's not specifically
given to the federal government and the constitution, and therefore this department is not necessary.
I remember Trump talking about taking apart the Department of Education back in 2016.
(04:48):
That's true. So this was a part of Trump's previous campaign, part of now his Project 2025.
And this has been kind of a longstanding thread of Trump's campaign.
And overall, it sounds like people are pretty split on this.
People are super split. In a study done in 2024 by the Pew Research Center,
(05:11):
about 45% of the general population found that the Department of Education was unfavorable.
44 had a favorable opinion. When you split it up by parties, it's actually a little bit more clear.
64% of Republican members have an unfavorable view of the Department of Education,
while on the other hand, 62% of Democratic members have a more favorable view.
So it seems like this is one of the things that's pretty split down party lines.
(05:34):
The Department of Education has been around for about 45 years.
Is it even possible to eliminate it at this point?
Like a lot of things that's happening, there's been a lot of say that we'll sign some executive
orders and things will disappear. That actually is not the case for the Department of Education.
It was created by an act of Congress and to eliminate it, it will need to be eliminated
by an act of Congress. That being said, USAID, RIP.
(05:57):
I'm not ready for that. My understanding is that a bull has been introduced into the House
to dismantle the Department of Education by the end of 2026.
Now, normally we don't go into the details and read complete bills on this show.
We refer you to the website so you can look them up yourselves and see it.
But I think in this case, it's worth reading this one out loud. It is one sentence.
(06:21):
Oh my God, did I close it? Where did it go? My one sentence. I want to make sure I get
my one sentence correctly. Okay. Quote, the Department of Education shall terminate on
December 31st, 2026. That's the whole thing.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 words, three of those being a date.
This is not the first time the same exact 10 word bill has been introduced. It was introduced in
(06:44):
2016 and they didn't make any changes to it. I mean, this is probably a bill that Doge would
love, the Department of Governmental Efficiency. It's 10 words. Everyone can read it together
out loud and then vote. The bill itself, though, is more controversial than you might think.
So we've talked about how the Republican Party overall has a pretty negative view of the
(07:06):
Department of Education and it has had a longstanding desire to get rid of it.
But every time bills like this are introduced, they actually don't get a lot of traction.
And that's because red states, rural states, tend to benefit the most or receive the most funding
from the Department of Education. My understanding is that they receive a
lot of funding from the Department of Education. So last year, more than 60 Republicans in the
(07:31):
House, in addition to the Democrats, rejected a bill to eliminate the Department of Education,
realizing what an impact it would have on their own communities.
So while it might not be quite feasible to officially cut the Department of Education,
the administration is considering a lot of other steps that could essentially gut the
(07:55):
Department of Education without officially closing it. You can unofficially close it without
actually closing it. So what we're going to do next is talk about what that's going to look like,
what that could look like in order to help parents, families, and people prepare for these
changes. And we're going to split it into talking about different phases of education.
We're going to start by talking about early childhood education, so sort of everything
(08:18):
before kindergarten. Then we'll talk about grade school, K to 12. And then we're going to talk
about after that, postgraduate, college, grad school, that kind of stuff. So Alicia, get us
started. What's going to happen to these early education programs for kids who are before
kindergarten? There are a lot of early childhood programs that you might have heard of, things like
(08:40):
Head Start and the Child Care Development Block Grants. What's really interesting is that these
are actually not part of the Department of Education. They're part of the Department of
Health and Human Services. So massive restructuring of the Department of Education or just an outright
closure wouldn't directly affect these programs. But, spoiler alert, they're being targeted and
(09:04):
changed as we speak just through another mechanism at HHS. The Department of Education does oversee
and does provide funding for some smaller learning programs and some early childhood research.
Those would be affected, but they're not as widespread as Head Start. So I think where
we're going to see a lot of changes is actually K to 12 education. And this is probably a perfect
(09:28):
place to start talking about something called Title I funding. Yes. A large portion of the
Department of Education budget goes specifically to Title I. Title I provides financial assistance
to school districts for children from low-income families. And the idea is to provide all children
a fair, equitable, high-quality education and to close educational achievement gaps.
(09:54):
So some of this money might be used to acquire technology or provide mental health services in
schools to make sure internet is available or that teachers have access to curricula for remedial
instruction materials. Again, the Department of Education is not choosing the curricula,
but they are able to pay for it through Title I. Closing the Department of Education would not
(10:20):
undo Title I. Title I was created by an act of Congress and it would require a separate act
of Congress in order to end the program. But closure of the Department of Education would
definitely lead to changes on how Title I and other simpler programs would administer funding
to states. One of the mechanisms proposed to provide funding to states with a closure of
(10:45):
the Department of Education is to transition funding from all of these separate little programs
like Title I into a large block grant where states would get a set amount of money for
a list of 15 things. My understanding is that there's concern that this would lead to so much
confusion at the state and district level, which would really delay or fail to get money to where
(11:10):
it's needed. It's expected that Title I funding would be drastically reduced or altogether
eliminated if you transition to a block grant and that a lot of the funding would fall into the state.
So these programs that are aimed at closing educational gaps, they would essentially
(11:30):
be dramatically cut, reduced, pulled back, and we might see worsening gaps in educational achievement.
And there are current bills that have been proposed to Congress for this exact purpose.
There's current legislation that proposes sending K-12 funding directly back to states as block
grants. It doesn't specifically mention Title I, but it's assumed that this will be rolled into a
(11:54):
package of a block grant. This would be a major shakeup for schools. In addition to the restructuring
of funding that supports programs closing educational gaps, my understanding is that
special education is also under fire right now. Special education is the practice of educating
(12:14):
students in a way that accommodates for their individual differences, their disabilities,
and their special needs. In the United States, 95% of students with disabilities obtain education
in the public school system. Wow, that's huge. It sounds like the public school has really made
strides in terms of being accessible and available for students who may have learning differences.
(12:40):
And that was largely done by a bill called IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act,
and that ensures that students with disabilities are offered free education tailored to their needs.
The Department of Education is the one that helps monitor, fund, and keep this law in place.
So while schools would still need to offer special education, the part of the government that ensures
(13:04):
that the law is being followed would be gone. The Department of Education sets rules for states,
districts, and schools about how children should be identified for possible disabilities,
for how families, parents, and schools should work together to create what's called an IEP,
an Individualized Education Program. It defines the menu of supports and services that kids should
receive. And these programs can be expensive, which is why it's important that the Department
(13:28):
of Education both provides funding and then monitors to make sure that schools are providing it.
In 2024, the Department of Education oversaw about $14 billion for special education-related
programs, and it served about 7.5 million children across the United States.
That's amazing because there's a time period in this country where those children may not have
(13:49):
had access to public education. And these special education plans are not only for children that
have dyslexia or other types of learning disabilities. They're used for a lot of different
things. Including anaphylaxic allergies. So if your child needs an EpiPen, your school can create
a special learning plan, making sure that you have access to an EpiPen. Making sure that school is
(14:13):
safe for you and that you have the same access to a public education as a child who doesn't have a
life-threatening food allergy. So I think overall, like, should we be worried about special education
in the future? Super unclear, super hazy. There are laws that are protecting educational status,
but right now that's monitored by an apartment. That might be eliminated. And it seems like a lot
(14:36):
of these monitoring requirements are going to be transitioned to the state. And you can imagine
that with all the different states and districts, that there's going to be perhaps differences in
how these plans are implemented and monitored, which will then lead to inequitable access to
education. So with the elimination of the Department of Education, we can expect to see major changes
(15:01):
in how Title I funding, which aims to close educational gaps, is done. We expect to see major
changes in how special education is monitored. And the third area we can expect to see major
changes is in school voucher programs. There was an executive order that was signed called
Expand Educational Opportunities for American Families. And essentially, the goal is to provide
(15:26):
more choice for families, that families can choose what school their child goes to, instead of being
assigned by the school district. That, on paper, sounds great. It does sound great. So what's the
problem? The vouchers include the opportunity to attend private school without having to pay
private school tuition. So that we're taking funds that are earmarked for public schools,
(15:48):
but diverting it towards private schools. And Alicia, my understanding is there's a lot of
concerns when we start taking public funds and giving it to private schools. There's a limited
amount of resources available. And when you start taking money away from public schools,
you're kind of draining the system. And public schools are already underfunded as they are.
(16:09):
There's also a concern about giving public funds to a private institution, including the fact that
these private institutions, they're not accountable to the same standards that public schools are,
that they don't have to provide the same accessible level of education or other supports that public
schools provide to people. So they can kind of choose who they want to be a part of their
(16:34):
private school community or not. They also have really limited oversight by the government.
Yeah, private schools can kind of do what they want. And so they're getting public money,
even if that's not in line with priorities that have been set by the public schools.
When money is diverted in this way, it can allow schools to choose students in a way that is
(16:55):
worsening segregation. It also allows families to choose schools based on demographics. It allows
families from higher income brackets to travel further and to choose, quote, better schools than
others, which further drains the resources away from public schools as people with resources are
(17:17):
trying to make decisions to sort of game the system. And all these public funds are behind it,
helping this happen so that we see public schools become an area with even fewer resources and
fewer supports. Then there's also the concern about a lot of private schools being religious.
And should public funds be funding religious schools that have agendas that aren't necessarily
(17:40):
in line with the state guidelines and curriculum for education? One thing I remember a lot of
learning in school was that separation of church and state, and that that was one of the founding
principles of the United States. And this is an example of kind of moving backwards, where
certain type of religious ideas seem to be getting more mixed into the public principles that we're
(18:04):
seeing. So maybe increased choice isn't as appealing as it sounds initially, or isn't as
beneficial as it sounds initially. I think those are the major things for the K-12 educational
changes. Things like school lunches actually hopefully will not be affected because they're
housed through the Department of Agriculture and not the Department of Education. Fascinating.
(18:27):
So many different departments. We've already touched upon the Department of Health and Human
Services, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Education. Very split. So subdivided.
We're not saying that this is the best form of government there is when we're splitting
education between all these different departments. But we're also not saying that eliminating every
(18:47):
single department, including the Department of Education, is going to lead to better outcomes.
It's funny though that this like split might protect certain aspects of education.
I hope that children continue to receive school lunches. It's a really important program.
Yeah. Let's take a minute to talk about what happens after high school. How is the Department
of Education involved in college and what changes might we expect to see?
(19:12):
The Department of Education is responsible for the gift that keeps on giving, student loans.
Student loans. Oh, I've gotten that gift. The Department of Education oversees Federal Student
Aid and student loans in a variety of ways for students attending any higher education,
including through things like FAFSA and Pell Grants and Federal Student Loans. And unfortunately,
(19:37):
if we dismantle the Department of Education, your student debt won't disappear.
I really hope that it might. I hated my student loans, but I was also really grateful that I had
the opportunity to borrow money from the federal government to attend medical school, something
that I would not have been able to do without the assistance of federal loans. I think the average
(20:00):
debt for a graduating medical school is over $200,000, and that only accounts for the cost
of medical school, not for the cost of undergraduate education. It's so much money.
And the ending of the Department of Education doesn't necessarily mean the end of student aid.
It's thought that it would transition over to the Department of Treasury. Maybe it would go to the
(20:23):
states. And in some cases, people are thinking that it might be going private or to for-profit
institutions. It hasn't quite been outlined, but it seems like student loans will still be available
just in a different manner. And if you already have loans, those definitely aren't getting
forgiven. The Public Student Loan Forgiveness Program provides forgiveness of your loans
(20:46):
after 10 years of steady payments and 10 years of public service. Then there's a possibility of
applying and having qualified loans forgiven. That program sounds like it may be under attack.
It's unclear, and it's sad because we know so many doctors that have been working steadily
towards public student loan forgiveness in public jobs where they're providing health care to their
(21:11):
community. Teachers are also eligible for that program. And as we have been talking about, public
schools are significantly underfunded and teachers are underpaid. That is a nice way to say it. Yes,
teachers are significantly underpaid for the work that they do. Underpaid. And when you're working
in these types of public school positions, part of the trade-off has been when you started the job
(21:35):
that after 10 years, your loans would be forgiven. And so it's hard to see these things changing now
that it's not your loans that are going to go away. Those are going to follow you. But the
opportunity for forgiveness sounds like it might be eliminated with these types of changes that
they're looking for. And the way that we're paying loans back has been under attack. We can move on.
I think student loans is this whole own episode. Student loans have been under attack. I have gotten
(21:57):
many a letter from the student loan website about all of the income base for payment options that
are currently in court and all of my payments are frozen. It's such a mess. It's a whole thing.
What's the longest you spent on the phone with your federal student loan provider?
I think it's like five and a half hours for me. And it's only because I gave up.
I hang up. I just, I mean, you can't get through to anybody.
(22:19):
I mean, especially not now that there's no one working.
So there are other ways that the Department of Education oversees secondary school education.
But loans is definitely a major, major place that people are worried about and talking about.
The Department of Education also provides institutional funding for higher education. And
the idea is to make higher education more accessible for families and for students.
(22:43):
And so they provide funding to colleges and four-year schools that have a larger percentage of
students that come from lower income communities. And they provide some funding for HBCUs or
historically black colleges and universities. And that funding, that's an important source
of support for people who may not otherwise have access to college and university.
(23:06):
And the outcomes from these programs have been phenomenal.
The concern is that if we reduce the funding, if we cut this funding, if the department goes away,
that college enrollment and college access is going to drop and that the divide is going to grow.
So with all of these changes coming, some to early childhood education,
a lot to K-12 education and definitely changes to secondary school education. What now?
(23:34):
A lot is really hazy. And I think it's really unclear. It's interesting because a lot of
access to education, education regulation are by federal law. But those federal laws are
implemented, monitored, funded by the Department of Education. And if we transition to another
source, it's going to be a period of chaos. And that even though the laws are still there,
(23:59):
if no one is monitoring and enforcing the laws, do the laws even exist? This is the tree falling in
the forest and no one's there to hear it. And so there's concerns that these changes will
worsen inequities in education and overall create a more divided, unequal society.
And I think what it will come down to as we possibly are transitioning a lot more power to
(24:22):
states for education than the federal government is that states are really going to have to fill
in the gaps. States are going to have to provide more funding. States are going to have to build
more systems, create more support. So there's concerns that states that have lower incomes,
states that have lower populations, states that are more rural than urban are going to have an
unequal burden by the elimination of the Department of Education. Because like you mentioned,
(24:45):
a lot of Republicans have been against this in the past because in fact, their states have
benefited from the existence of the Department of Education. And so these are the exact states
that may suffer the most if it were to go away. And then there's concerns about how this will
affect students with disabilities, the vast majority, which depend on public school education.
(25:05):
And that as we see these changes take place, there's concern that the elimination of these
special education programs will mean that schools either aren't providing the level of education
that someone needs or that they are in a safe environment, let's say for a student with a
life-threatening food allergy. If no one's monitoring, if no one's providing recommendations
on what resources should be available with children with disabilities, how are we sure
(25:29):
that we're meeting the requirements? As I think has been a trend throughout the beginning of this
administration, it's really unclear what's going to happen. I have no idea. There have been a lot
of statements about cutting, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut all these departments and branches and
institutions and very little about how we're going to monitor the things that we're cutting.
(25:54):
And what impact that's going to have on people's quality of life. We're all about, oh, governmental
efficiency, but government programs exist to help people and to help families. And like Alicia says,
it's really unclear what's going to happen as these changes take place. We're already seeing
a lot of impact on the Department of Education. And so we will be here to try to understand and
(26:16):
follow along with what's happening as it's happening. And I think as families are trying
to understand how this will impact them and their children, this is where where you live really
matters and how your state is structured. And if you're already seeing changes in your state,
in your area, you can always send us an email. Our email is Rolin, R-O-L-I-N, forward show,
(26:42):
at gmail.com. You can also reach out to us on the socials. We want to hear from you if you've
already noticed changes. What have you seen? What are you experiencing? How is it affecting your
family? We'll keep following the news and we'll share updates as they evolve. Thank you for
Thank you for listening. And this is the Rolin Forward podcast. I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin. I'm Dr.
(27:04):
Stephanie Rolin. Until next time.
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