February 2, 2025 • 30 mins
RFK Jr had 2 Senate confirmation hearings Jan 29 and 30. For more than six hours, senators considered whether to confirm him to lead HHS. A vote is still pending on what is shaping up to be one of the most controversial nominations. This week, Drs. Alicia and Stephanie Rolin provide a recap of those hearings.
This is not intended to be medical advice, and the content is solely the responsibility of the authors and does not necessarily represent the official views of their employers or funders
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of Rolin Forward podcast.
(00:11):
You know, it's been a long week when I can't even say my own name.
I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin.
I'm Dr. Stephanie Rolin.
And this episode, we are going to talk about the highlights from that confirmation hearing.
That's right.
(00:31):
This week, RFK Jr. had two Senate confirmation hearings.
These were hearings, one with the finance committee, one with health, education, labor,
and pensions, I think it is.
Two Senate committees met in order to consider his nomination to be HHS secretary.
And although we promised that this podcast is not going to turn into an RFK Jr. podcast,
(00:54):
we thought it was important to bring in some highlights from these hearings because whoever
is selected to lead HHS is going to have a profound impact on health care in America.
There's a lot of really interesting information, a lot of important information that came out
of these trials.
They're not a trial.
It feels like a trial.
So there's a lot of really important information about RFK and the future of health care and
(01:16):
how he sees health care being led in America.
But it's like six hours.
So let's give you the highlights.
So the first thing that I took away, Alicia, was he has this morality approach to health
care that if you make good choices, you deserve to be healthy.
And if you make quote unquote bad choices, like smoking, well, that's your problem.
(01:41):
So let me play this quote.
So this is a quote from the first day at the confirmation hearing.
And this is Senator Bernie Sanders asking RFK Jr. about his stance on health care.
And if health care, if he thinks that health care is a right or a privilege.
Do you agree with me that the United States should join every other major country on earth
(02:02):
and guarantee health care to all people as a human right?
Yes.
No.
Senator, I can't give you a yes or no answer that question.
Is health care a human right?
In the way that for you to be human right, I would say it's different because if with
(02:24):
free speech doesn't cost anybody anything.
But in health care, if you smoke cigarettes for 20 years and you get cancer, you are now
taking from the pool.
So are you guaranteed the same?
I'm sorry.
I'd love to talk for an hour with you.
(02:45):
We got a few minutes left here.
I heard that exchange and it was really concerning because there seems to be this approach of
blaming people.
It just really felt backwards to me.
I found this to be particularly alarming that not everybody deserves access to good health
care.
And to suggest that if you make bad health decisions, you have to be rich in order to
(03:09):
afford health care.
It's just alarming.
And we make decisions every day about our health.
Some mornings I get up and run and some mornings like today I get out of bed and I sit on the
couch to suggest that decisions about health are so simple.
And if you make a bad choice, we're human.
We're not perfect.
And people have really changed their life around.
(03:31):
People make bad and quote decisions and then they change.
Lots of people have issues with substance use that later they are clean and sober and
leave a healthy, meaningful life just because they smoke cigarettes just because there were
other issues of substance use 40 years ago.
Does that mean that they don't deserve health care?
Exactly.
And even if someone is currently smoking or using substances or drinking, it also doesn't
(03:56):
mean that they're not worthy of health care in that moment.
There's a potential that they can make other choices in the future.
But I think it's disappointing because something that's important to know about R.F.K.
Jr. himself is his own history of making less than optimal health choices, shall we say.
And here's a quote from the hearing where he talks about that.
I was a heroin addict for 14 years.
(04:17):
I've been 42 years in recovery.
I go to 12, 7 meetings every day.
So I hear the stories every day and I hear the many stories about denial of the barriers
to access to care.
So in this part, he's talking about his own history of being his own label as a heroin
(04:39):
addict for 14 years and that he's hearing from people how hard it is for them to access
treatment.
But on the other hand, he just said that if you make a bad choice, like smoking, then
you shouldn't be pulling from the pool.
I agree.
Very disappointing.
I think it's particularly disappointing.
I think this is merits being said.
His uncle, Senator Ted Kennedy, spent his entire political career trying to improve
(05:00):
health care access.
Because there are many quotes of him saying that his family has had great health care
in the setting of being able to financially afford it and that everybody should be able
to afford health care.
And RFK Jr. is totally on a different wavelength than his uncle.
Absolutely.
And he's saying something like, make America healthy again.
(05:21):
But how are you going to make America healthy if people can't get health care?
I think there's a caveat in that sentence.
Make Americans that deserve it healthy again.
That is, his slogan is make some people in America healthy again.
I agree.
His approach right now does not make it seem like it's health for all.
So that was one of our big takeaways.
He's going to be coming in with an approach about morality and worth and consequences
(05:44):
of your choices.
And that's something that could really trickle down with the everyday health policies and
procedures we're going to start seeing.
For me, that was like big red flag number one.
It was alarming by how upfront he was about that.
That there was no there was no attempts to hide his views.
No, no.
That he was upfront about.
(06:04):
Something that he was less upfront about was his questionable history on vaccines.
This was a huge focus from both days of the confirmation hearing.
And as we've talked about before, including the prior episode leading up to these hearings,
RFK Jr. has a long history of spreading vaccine misinformation and disinformation.
(06:27):
And that is something that he was asked about again and again.
During this hearing, he says that he is pro-vaccine.
He keeps saying, I'm not anti-vaccine.
I am pro-safety.
Those are the words that he's been using.
And he says that if we show him the science, if we learn more science, that vaccines are
safe, that he will support that.
(06:49):
Senator Cassidy is a Republican from Louisiana and he is a gastroenterologist.
So he's a physician.
(07:55):
So that exchange was at the second day of the confirmation hearing.
And people keep saying that we're split down party lines.
Senator Cassidy is a Republican and Senator Cassidy had a lot of questions for RFK Jr.
about his statements on vaccines coming from the perspective of someone that had practiced
medicine for many years.
Senator Cassidy, Dr. Cassidy, he shared his own personal experiences taking care of people
(08:18):
who had devastating effects from being infected with hepatitis B. Hepatitis B is a vaccine
preventable illness.
And to go around and suggest that these vaccines cause autism, it's so damaging because then
people aren't getting the vaccines because of this misinformation.
And then they're dying from these illnesses that we can prevent.
And that was Senator Cassidy's concern.
(08:41):
The other concern here is that the science is there about vaccines and the data has been
there, the science has been there.
And RFK Jr. for such a long time has been standing up and spreading this misinformation
about vaccine safety.
And then he's like, oh, I've never seen the science.
Bring me the science and I'll review it.
What are you doing spreading this misinformation if you've never even looked at the science?
(09:06):
So Senator Bernie Sanders actually brought that up.
And he said, this is your job.
Senator, if you show me those studies, I will absolutely, as I promised to Chairman Cassidy,
I will follow that.
That is a very troubling response because the studies are there.
Your job is to have looked at those studies as an applicant for this job.
(09:29):
It's alarming that you are going to lead health care in America and you haven't done your
research.
Not only have you not done your research, you're making statements influencing so many
people and then openly acknowledging you haven't looked at the science.
His statements over the past two days that he is not anti-vaccine contradicts a long
(09:50):
history of his anti-vaccine sentiment.
At the confirmation hearings, he kept saying that he's not anti-vaccine and you could believe
him because his children are vaccinated.
But let me play this quote.
So this is Senator Wyden.
Your testimony today under oath, you denied that you were anti-vaccine.
(10:13):
But during a podcast interview in July of 2023, you said, quote, no vaccine is safe
and effective.
In your testimony today, you note that all your kids are vaccinated.
But in a podcast in 2020, you said, if I could go back in time and I could avoid giving my
(10:34):
children the vaccines that I gave them, I would do anything for that.
I would pay anything to be able to do that.
Mr. Kennedy, all of these things cannot be true.
So are you lying to Congress today when you say you are pro-vaccine or did you lie on
(10:55):
all those podcasts?
We have all of this on tape, by the way.
This is so damaging.
Statements like this makes it hard to trust him because he's putting forward the fact
that his children are vaccinated as proof that he's not anti-vax.
But then he's also saying that that's his biggest regret.
It's really hard to trust anything he's saying.
(11:15):
He has been very staunchly anti-vaccine for decades.
He has published many books.
He has been on many podcasts.
He has straight up told people, don't vaccinate your children.
It's dangerous.
And now he's like, oh, I never said that.
And I just haven't seen the science.
Just bring me the science that I'll be the first to say that I'm wrong.
(11:37):
What have you been doing when you're writing these books?
How are you doing your research if you're not looking at the science and the data that's
peer reviewed and out there?
And then Senors kept being like, here's the science.
Here are 40 studies I brought with me.
Here are 100 studies I brought with me.
And he kept saying, we need to repeat the science.
We need to replicate it.
There's not enough evidence.
(11:57):
One thing that I want to know about R.F.K.
Jr. is like, if he missed all of these papers, I want to know, like, how is he doing research?
Like, is he on Twitter, on X doing research?
Like how is he doing his research?
Also like he's giving science equal weight.
Like this one study is equal to 600 other studies.
For someone who wants replication, he doesn't really seem to take it seriously.
(12:18):
He wants replication and then won't read the results.
There are decades of evidence.
Vaccines have been in use for a long time.
And there's nothing wrong with wanting to replicate science, with wanting to repeat
studies and making sure one study is what we're basing everything off.
That's true.
But this is science that has been replicated, that has been done.
(12:38):
And there is harm to continuing to revisit this closed question.
And that harm exists in, number one, diverting research away from other programs like developing
cures to cancers that are killing people right now, preparing for the pandemic threat of
bird flu.
There's only so much money that's being invested in health care.
And the more that we spend revisiting this, the less that we have for the new threats
(13:03):
that are coming.
And then the second thing is the impact that this is having on parents.
Senator Hassan said this in a really eloquent way.
I am the proud mother of a 36-year-old young man with severe cerebral palsy.
And a day does not go by when I don't think about what did I do when I was pregnant with
(13:23):
him that might have caused the hydrocephalus that has so impacted his life.
You please do not suggest that anybody in this body of either political party doesn't
want to know what the cause of autism is.
Do you know how many friends I have with children who have autism?
(13:45):
The problem is because he's re-litigating and churning settled science so we can't go
forward and find out what the cause of autism is and treat these kids and help these families.
Mr. Kennedy, that first autism study rocked my world.
And like every mother, I worried about whether in fact the vaccine had done something to
(14:11):
my son.
And you know what?
It was a tiny study of about 12 kids.
And over time, the scientific community studied and studied and studied and found that it
was wrong.
And the journal retracted the study.
And when you continue to sow doubt about settled science, it makes it impossible for us to
(14:33):
move forward.
So that's what the problem is here.
It's the re-litigating and rehashing and continuing to sow doubt so we can't move forward and
it freezes us in place.
To end kind of the section on vaccines, I think the American people need is exactly
what Senator Whitehouse asked R.F.K.
(14:54):
Jr. to do.
He said, if you want to move from advocacy to public responsibility, Americans are going
to need to hear a clear and trustworthy recantation of what you have said on vaccinations, including
a promise that you will never say vaccines aren't medically safe when in fact they are
and making it indisputably clear that you support mandatory vaccinations against diseases
(15:15):
that will keep people safe.
And even that, I'm not sure will be enough.
But I think there is something else that came up during these hearings is it wasn't really
clear that R.F.K.
Jr. fully understood what's involved in running HHS.
Over and over again, throughout the six hours, he confused Medicaid and Medicare.
(15:36):
He was unclear about the powers of the Department of Health and Human Services.
He didn't understand the laws.
He didn't understand the capacity.
And it was alarming that he's interviewing for a job that honestly he knows nothing about.
There were so many times that senators were asking him basic questions about how HHS and
its various agencies run.
(15:57):
And he would say, oh, I misspoke or I didn't mean that.
Or, you know, he would try to amend it.
But they were having to provide him with the basic facts around HHS for him to be able
to answer questions.
And even then he couldn't keep it clear.
He kept fumbling about the differences between Medicare Part A, B and C. And he didn't understand
that Medicare Part C is private.
(16:19):
We've talked about the Department of Health and Human Services before.
It is confusing.
It is complex.
We're not interviewing for that job.
That is so true.
This was not a one time misspeak.
These were over and over again in these six hours.
Senators were educating him about basic policies and procedures at HHS.
(16:40):
At one point, he was claiming that one of the largest complaints about Medicaid is that
it was costing too much for families and that the premiums were too high.
There are no premiums on Medicaid.
He also said something about how there was no police powers of HHS when actually CMS,
the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services, regularly do enforcement.
(17:03):
And he just wasn't even aware that that was part of what CMS does.
He said that Medicaid and Medicare were 100% federally funded when, in fact, states contribute
a significant portion of funding to these programs.
Oh, that's my computer.
I'll turn that off.
So these aren't just simple misstatements.
These are basic facts.
So there are definitely some concerns about his qualifications.
(17:26):
I just feel like in any job, any job, government or non-government, you would never be interviewing
a candidate to lead a department of something that they know nothing about.
And this is a, the amount of money that goes into HHS each year is huge.
So the powers he's going to have is enormous.
(17:48):
And if he doesn't understand what they do at a fundamental level, it's concerning what
that will look like.
And you mentioned that he's not qualified.
It's not that he's not a physician.
Lots of secretaries of Health and Human Services have not been physicians.
For the most part, they're not.
They tend to be people with a background in healthcare finance.
He's not a physician, but he also doesn't have a background in finance and he doesn't
(18:10):
have a background in healthcare.
No, he doesn't.
As we've talked about, he has a background in environmental law.
He has a background in conspiracy theories.
That was the other thing that really came out in this was the conspiracy theories.
Oh my God.
It was a lot.
He was asked directly about this.
This was so good.
This is Senator Kaine reading a tweet of RFK juniors.
(18:34):
On 9-11, it's hard to tell what is conspiracy theory and what isn't.
I'd like to introduce that for the record, Mr. Chair.
We take that kind of stuff pretty personally.
Virginians know what happened on 9-11.
We don't need folks given oxygen to conspiracy theories about 9-11.
(18:55):
One thing I noticed about this post is it was in July of 2024.
It was 23 years after 9-11.
You had a lot going on in your life.
You were running for president then.
What made you decide in the midst of everything going on in this country, in this world in
July of 2024, in your own candidacy for president, that now was the time to say it's hard to
(19:17):
tell what is conspiracy and what isn't about 9-11?
What was so important about making this point in July of 2024?
Senator the dramatic drop in trust in our government.
This is particularly one of the templates for that is what happened at CDC.
No, no.
I want to move aside from that.
(19:39):
Because you say, you go on to say, I won't take sides as president.
I won't take sides on 9-11.
Wow.
I won't take sides on 9-11.
Let me ask you this.
As a general matter, do you find it hard to tell what is a conspiracy theory and what
(20:01):
isn't?
Is that kind of a general deficit that you find in your own analytical abilities?
My father told me when I was 13 years old, he said people in authority lie and that the
job of a citizen in every democracy is to maintain a fear of skepticism.
(20:26):
And you're an authority.
And you're an authority.
But you won't take sides on 9-11.
I never thought that we'd be talking about sides on 9-11.
I'm just going to say that he's the authority that's lying.
Wow.
I can't believe that.
So it came out over and over again.
People were bringing up many of the conspiracy theories that he has said and then asking
if he had ever said these things.
(20:46):
Sometimes he said yes, sometimes said no.
And then they would bring up the context in which he had said it.
He would say, no, I never said that.
The senators had their receipts and were like, here's the quote of you saying it.
And he was like, oh, maybe I did say that.
So senators Bennett asked, did you say that Lyme disease is a militarized bioweapon?
And RFK's response, I probably said that.
There's a lot going on in his mind.
(21:08):
And the thing about conspiracy theories, these things do harm.
He's providing legitimacy to things that should not be in question.
He's providing legitimacy to anti-science.
And there were hundreds of conspiracy theories that were brought up.
Dozens of these.
Dozens, including COVID-19 was genetically engineered to target specific racial and ethnic
(21:29):
groups.
I just can't with that.
I really, it's so disturbing.
And I think Senator Kaine really got at it.
Like, do you find it hard to tell what's real and what's not, what's a conspiracy and what's
not?
And the reality is it is hard for him.
If he's 23 years later talking about, I won't take sides on 9-11, just imagine what that
(21:51):
will look like in the midst of a health outbreak, in the midst of a pandemic when somebody like
this is reading HHS.
Will he not take sides with evidence and no evidence?
I won't take sides on bird flu.
Maybe it's good.
I don't know.
It's concerning.
And that putting these conspiracy theories out there takes resources away from the trusted
(22:13):
science that we need.
And then it also perpetuates stigma.
Senator Smith.
Mr. Chair, thank you.
Welcome, Mr. Kennedy.
I know that you and your family have had personal experience with mental health challenges,
as have I.
So do you believe, as you've said, that antidepressants cause school shootings?
This should be a simple question.
(22:34):
I don't think anybody can answer that question.
I said it should be studied along with other potential culprits.
But I don't know.
There's no science on that.
Well, there is, Mr. Kennedy.
Science shows that there is no link between school shootings and antidepressants.
He's like, I don't know.
I just said we needed to study it.
We just need to study it.
I don't know.
There's no evidence that SSRIs cause school shootings.
(22:58):
And he just hasn't seen the science.
And then by making statements like that, it is harmful and it's perpetuating a stigma
around mental health.
And most school shooters have never been on an SSRI before in their life.
And maybe it would have helped them.
Having good mental health helps you make decisions that are better for you and better for other
people.
We should be promoting good mental health.
(23:20):
100%.
So the last thing that came out of these trials, they're not trials.
I keep calling them trials.
I did feel that way.
Yeah.
One of the things that came out of these hearings that was highly concerning to me was that
RFK Jr. kept making it clear that regardless of his opinion, regardless of fact, regardless
of science, that he will blindly follow President Trump's directions over everything else.
(23:44):
The number of times that he said, well, President Trump this, President Trump that, he said
this, he said that, it got to the point that Senator Hassan, I think, confronted him about
this.
This could be a rubber stamp for the administration.
Senator Hassan did question a lot about selling out his values in order to gain his position.
But that quote actually came from Senator Cortez Masto.
(24:06):
And I think it's worth listening to.
My question to you is, why are you there?
Are you there to be a rubber stamp to this administration and cave into all of these
positions that they're taking?
So these are many quotes that he said when talking to a Senator from Montana.
He said, President Trump has not yet asked me to take a stand on how to regulate Mifa
(24:29):
Pristone.
Whatever he does, I will implement those policies.
Oh no.
He said it twice.
He said it on each day.
So that was day one.
On day two, Senator Baldwin again brought up Mifa Pristone and how much science he needed.
And again, he've iterated, President Trump has not taken a stance on Mifa Pristone.
And once he has a policy, I will implement his policy.
(24:50):
And this is the moment that I felt true fear because Mifa Pristone is a medication that
is used for elective terminations.
It is safe.
There are more than 100 studies stating how safe it is.
So we've got the replication and complications occur in about 1% of people who take this
medication.
(25:11):
So 99% of people have no complications.
It's been FDA approved for 25 years.
And when asked if there was enough science to support the safety of Mifa Pristone, that
it would continue to be made available to people.
And he said he would follow Trump's policy on whether Mifa Pristone would be available
or not.
And that is scary because that is policy and personal opinion over science.
(25:35):
Senator Hassan also said, you are willing to sacrifice your values, your knowledge if
President Trump tells you to do that.
That to me is unacceptable in a secretary of Health and Human Services.
And I think that sums it up really well.
The reason why we have people in these positions is to educate the executive branch.
It's to provide support.
(25:56):
It's to lead the American people.
One person cannot be an expert in everything.
If you are blindly bending to the will of the executive branch, like why are you there?
Why do you exist?
Something that really was so apparent.
Health care in America under R.F.K. Jr., it's going to be implementing the policies that
(26:17):
President Trump comes up with without regard to the science, the implications or how it's
going to affect people.
I mean, he kept saying it himself.
He kept saying, I will do whatever President Trump tells me to.
And if you look through his history, he's also flip-flopped on a ton of stances to match
what President Trump has said.
And so for many years, R.F.K. Jr. has been pro-choice.
(26:42):
He thinks the government should not be involved in a woman's decision.
And in the past few months, he has totally 180'd in this stance.
And that was brought up by many people during the confirmation hearing.
He's just changed all of his views to emulate the views of Trump.
And that's concerning because it means we don't know what R.F.K. Jr. stands for and
(27:02):
we don't know what he's going to do in this position because everything that he says is
shifting, inconsistent and can be contradicted by finding something else that he said.
One question he was unable to answer was, quote, when was it that you decided to sell
out the values you've had your whole life in order to be given power by President Trump?
(27:22):
And the confirmation hearings have ended.
They were January 29th and January 30th, but the votes have not yet happened.
So this is a time, if you have feelings, to reach out to your senators, to reach out to
people and share how you're feeling.
This is going to be a very, very close vote.
And that's why we want to share the science, the facts, the statements that were made at
(27:43):
these hearings with you.
The Republican Party has a majority in the Senate.
Three Republicans need to oppose his nomination.
And no Democrats to support it.
And no Democrats.
So all the Democrats and three Republicans need to oppose his nomination in order for
him not to be nominated.
This is going to be a close one.
This is a contentious one.
(28:03):
And there are a lot of eyes on a specific number of senators, including Senator Cassidy,
who we talked about, a Republican from Louisiana that spent his career as a gastroenterologist.
There's eyes on Mitch McConnell, who personally experienced polio.
And there's thoughts that him having experienced that he'll have pro polio vaccination stamps.
(28:27):
It's super sad to me that you have to experience polio to understand polio.
If confirmed, it will have a major impact on health care in America.
We wanted to share this with you because whether he's confirmed or not, these statements, they're
really important.
I think these confirmation hearings made it clear how unqualified he is and that he is
(28:51):
in this position because he has pledged loyalty to President Trump.
He will be a yes man.
He made that clear.
I am concerned.
I am worried about the future of health care in America if this is the path that we're
going down.
And it isn't about a particular party.
It's when personal loyalties matter more than science.
(29:12):
That's the concern.
No matter who that personal loyalty is to, science and facts need to come first.
I can hold different personal beliefs about health care, about health care delivery than
politicians, than people that have been the secretary of health and human services in
the past.
But I feel like prior secretaries, even from different political parties, have had good
(29:33):
intentions, have wanted to improve health care.
We have just disagreed about how to improve health care with RFK Jr.
I'm concerned about his lack of understanding of health care in America.
And I'm not sure that he has particularly good intentions.
Confirmed or not, we'll be right here with you following these changes in health care
(29:53):
in America.
I'm Dr. Stephanie Rolin.
I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin.
This is the Rolin Forward podcast.
Please like, subscribe, follow us on social media.
We're sharing some different audio quotes there as well.
You can always send us an email at Rolin Forward Show, R-O-L-I-N, forwardshow at gmail.com.
(30:17):
And that's our show for this week.
Thank you for tuning in.
See you next time.
And now we're gonna make coffee.
I'm gonna make more coffee.
Um, okay.
Let's stop.
You too, stop.
Welcome to this week's episode of Rolin Forward podcast.
(00:11):
You know, it's been a long week when I can't even say my own name.
I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin.
I'm Dr. Stephanie Rolin.
And this episode, we are going to talk about the highlights from that confirmation hearing.
That's right.
(00:31):
This week, RFK Jr. had two Senate confirmation hearings.
These were hearings, one with the finance committee, one with health, education, labor,
and pensions, I think it is.
Two Senate committees met in order to consider his nomination to be HHS secretary.
And although we promised that this podcast is not going to turn into an RFK Jr. podcast,
(00:54):
we thought it was important to bring in some highlights from these hearings because whoever
is selected to lead HHS is going to have a profound impact on health care in America.
There's a lot of really interesting information, a lot of important information that came out
of these trials.
They're not a trial.
It feels like a trial.
So there's a lot of really important information about RFK and the future of health care and
(01:16):
how he sees health care being led in America.
But it's like six hours.
So let's give you the highlights.
So the first thing that I took away, Alicia, was he has this morality approach to health
care that if you make good choices, you deserve to be healthy.
And if you make quote unquote bad choices, like smoking, well, that's your problem.
(01:41):
So let me play this quote.
So this is a quote from the first day at the confirmation hearing.
And this is Senator Bernie Sanders asking RFK Jr. about his stance on health care.
And if health care, if he thinks that health care is a right or a privilege.
Do you agree with me that the United States should join every other major country on earth
(02:02):
and guarantee health care to all people as a human right?
Yes.
No.
Senator, I can't give you a yes or no answer that question.
Is health care a human right?
In the way that for you to be human right, I would say it's different because if with
(02:24):
free speech doesn't cost anybody anything.
But in health care, if you smoke cigarettes for 20 years and you get cancer, you are now
taking from the pool.
So are you guaranteed the same?
I'm sorry.
I'd love to talk for an hour with you.
(02:45):
We got a few minutes left here.
I heard that exchange and it was really concerning because there seems to be this approach of
blaming people.
It just really felt backwards to me.
I found this to be particularly alarming that not everybody deserves access to good health
care.
And to suggest that if you make bad health decisions, you have to be rich in order to
(03:09):
afford health care.
It's just alarming.
And we make decisions every day about our health.
Some mornings I get up and run and some mornings like today I get out of bed and I sit on the
couch to suggest that decisions about health are so simple.
And if you make a bad choice, we're human.
We're not perfect.
And people have really changed their life around.
(03:31):
People make bad and quote decisions and then they change.
Lots of people have issues with substance use that later they are clean and sober and
leave a healthy, meaningful life just because they smoke cigarettes just because there were
other issues of substance use 40 years ago.
Does that mean that they don't deserve health care?
Exactly.
And even if someone is currently smoking or using substances or drinking, it also doesn't
(03:56):
mean that they're not worthy of health care in that moment.
There's a potential that they can make other choices in the future.
But I think it's disappointing because something that's important to know about R.F.K.
Jr. himself is his own history of making less than optimal health choices, shall we say.
And here's a quote from the hearing where he talks about that.
I was a heroin addict for 14 years.
(04:17):
I've been 42 years in recovery.
I go to 12, 7 meetings every day.
So I hear the stories every day and I hear the many stories about denial of the barriers
to access to care.
So in this part, he's talking about his own history of being his own label as a heroin
(04:39):
addict for 14 years and that he's hearing from people how hard it is for them to access
treatment.
But on the other hand, he just said that if you make a bad choice, like smoking, then
you shouldn't be pulling from the pool.
I agree.
Very disappointing.
I think it's particularly disappointing.
I think this is merits being said.
His uncle, Senator Ted Kennedy, spent his entire political career trying to improve
(05:00):
health care access.
Because there are many quotes of him saying that his family has had great health care
in the setting of being able to financially afford it and that everybody should be able
to afford health care.
And RFK Jr. is totally on a different wavelength than his uncle.
Absolutely.
And he's saying something like, make America healthy again.
(05:21):
But how are you going to make America healthy if people can't get health care?
I think there's a caveat in that sentence.
Make Americans that deserve it healthy again.
That is, his slogan is make some people in America healthy again.
I agree.
His approach right now does not make it seem like it's health for all.
So that was one of our big takeaways.
He's going to be coming in with an approach about morality and worth and consequences
(05:44):
of your choices.
And that's something that could really trickle down with the everyday health policies and
procedures we're going to start seeing.
For me, that was like big red flag number one.
It was alarming by how upfront he was about that.
That there was no there was no attempts to hide his views.
No, no.
That he was upfront about.
(06:04):
Something that he was less upfront about was his questionable history on vaccines.
This was a huge focus from both days of the confirmation hearing.
And as we've talked about before, including the prior episode leading up to these hearings,
RFK Jr. has a long history of spreading vaccine misinformation and disinformation.
(06:27):
And that is something that he was asked about again and again.
During this hearing, he says that he is pro-vaccine.
He keeps saying, I'm not anti-vaccine.
I am pro-safety.
Those are the words that he's been using.
And he says that if we show him the science, if we learn more science, that vaccines are
safe, that he will support that.
(06:49):
Senator Cassidy is a Republican from Louisiana and he is a gastroenterologist.
So he's a physician.
(07:55):
So that exchange was at the second day of the confirmation hearing.
And people keep saying that we're split down party lines.
Senator Cassidy is a Republican and Senator Cassidy had a lot of questions for RFK Jr.
about his statements on vaccines coming from the perspective of someone that had practiced
medicine for many years.
Senator Cassidy, Dr. Cassidy, he shared his own personal experiences taking care of people
(08:18):
who had devastating effects from being infected with hepatitis B. Hepatitis B is a vaccine
preventable illness.
And to go around and suggest that these vaccines cause autism, it's so damaging because then
people aren't getting the vaccines because of this misinformation.
And then they're dying from these illnesses that we can prevent.
And that was Senator Cassidy's concern.
(08:41):
The other concern here is that the science is there about vaccines and the data has been
there, the science has been there.
And RFK Jr. for such a long time has been standing up and spreading this misinformation
about vaccine safety.
And then he's like, oh, I've never seen the science.
Bring me the science and I'll review it.
What are you doing spreading this misinformation if you've never even looked at the science?
(09:06):
So Senator Bernie Sanders actually brought that up.
And he said, this is your job.
Senator, if you show me those studies, I will absolutely, as I promised to Chairman Cassidy,
I will follow that.
That is a very troubling response because the studies are there.
Your job is to have looked at those studies as an applicant for this job.
(09:29):
It's alarming that you are going to lead health care in America and you haven't done your
research.
Not only have you not done your research, you're making statements influencing so many
people and then openly acknowledging you haven't looked at the science.
His statements over the past two days that he is not anti-vaccine contradicts a long
(09:50):
history of his anti-vaccine sentiment.
At the confirmation hearings, he kept saying that he's not anti-vaccine and you could believe
him because his children are vaccinated.
But let me play this quote.
So this is Senator Wyden.
Your testimony today under oath, you denied that you were anti-vaccine.
(10:13):
But during a podcast interview in July of 2023, you said, quote, no vaccine is safe
and effective.
In your testimony today, you note that all your kids are vaccinated.
But in a podcast in 2020, you said, if I could go back in time and I could avoid giving my
(10:34):
children the vaccines that I gave them, I would do anything for that.
I would pay anything to be able to do that.
Mr. Kennedy, all of these things cannot be true.
So are you lying to Congress today when you say you are pro-vaccine or did you lie on
(10:55):
all those podcasts?
We have all of this on tape, by the way.
This is so damaging.
Statements like this makes it hard to trust him because he's putting forward the fact
that his children are vaccinated as proof that he's not anti-vax.
But then he's also saying that that's his biggest regret.
It's really hard to trust anything he's saying.
(11:15):
He has been very staunchly anti-vaccine for decades.
He has published many books.
He has been on many podcasts.
He has straight up told people, don't vaccinate your children.
It's dangerous.
And now he's like, oh, I never said that.
And I just haven't seen the science.
Just bring me the science that I'll be the first to say that I'm wrong.
(11:37):
What have you been doing when you're writing these books?
How are you doing your research if you're not looking at the science and the data that's
peer reviewed and out there?
And then Senors kept being like, here's the science.
Here are 40 studies I brought with me.
Here are 100 studies I brought with me.
And he kept saying, we need to repeat the science.
We need to replicate it.
There's not enough evidence.
(11:57):
One thing that I want to know about R.F.K.
Jr. is like, if he missed all of these papers, I want to know, like, how is he doing research?
Like, is he on Twitter, on X doing research?
Like how is he doing his research?
Also like he's giving science equal weight.
Like this one study is equal to 600 other studies.
For someone who wants replication, he doesn't really seem to take it seriously.
(12:18):
He wants replication and then won't read the results.
There are decades of evidence.
Vaccines have been in use for a long time.
And there's nothing wrong with wanting to replicate science, with wanting to repeat
studies and making sure one study is what we're basing everything off.
That's true.
But this is science that has been replicated, that has been done.
(12:38):
And there is harm to continuing to revisit this closed question.
And that harm exists in, number one, diverting research away from other programs like developing
cures to cancers that are killing people right now, preparing for the pandemic threat of
bird flu.
There's only so much money that's being invested in health care.
And the more that we spend revisiting this, the less that we have for the new threats
(13:03):
that are coming.
And then the second thing is the impact that this is having on parents.
Senator Hassan said this in a really eloquent way.
I am the proud mother of a 36-year-old young man with severe cerebral palsy.
And a day does not go by when I don't think about what did I do when I was pregnant with
(13:23):
him that might have caused the hydrocephalus that has so impacted his life.
You please do not suggest that anybody in this body of either political party doesn't
want to know what the cause of autism is.
Do you know how many friends I have with children who have autism?
(13:45):
The problem is because he's re-litigating and churning settled science so we can't go
forward and find out what the cause of autism is and treat these kids and help these families.
Mr. Kennedy, that first autism study rocked my world.
And like every mother, I worried about whether in fact the vaccine had done something to
(14:11):
my son.
And you know what?
It was a tiny study of about 12 kids.
And over time, the scientific community studied and studied and studied and found that it
was wrong.
And the journal retracted the study.
And when you continue to sow doubt about settled science, it makes it impossible for us to
(14:33):
move forward.
So that's what the problem is here.
It's the re-litigating and rehashing and continuing to sow doubt so we can't move forward and
it freezes us in place.
To end kind of the section on vaccines, I think the American people need is exactly
what Senator Whitehouse asked R.F.K.
(14:54):
Jr. to do.
He said, if you want to move from advocacy to public responsibility, Americans are going
to need to hear a clear and trustworthy recantation of what you have said on vaccinations, including
a promise that you will never say vaccines aren't medically safe when in fact they are
and making it indisputably clear that you support mandatory vaccinations against diseases
(15:15):
that will keep people safe.
And even that, I'm not sure will be enough.
But I think there is something else that came up during these hearings is it wasn't really
clear that R.F.K.
Jr. fully understood what's involved in running HHS.
Over and over again, throughout the six hours, he confused Medicaid and Medicare.
(15:36):
He was unclear about the powers of the Department of Health and Human Services.
He didn't understand the laws.
He didn't understand the capacity.
And it was alarming that he's interviewing for a job that honestly he knows nothing about.
There were so many times that senators were asking him basic questions about how HHS and
its various agencies run.
(15:57):
And he would say, oh, I misspoke or I didn't mean that.
Or, you know, he would try to amend it.
But they were having to provide him with the basic facts around HHS for him to be able
to answer questions.
And even then he couldn't keep it clear.
He kept fumbling about the differences between Medicare Part A, B and C. And he didn't understand
that Medicare Part C is private.
(16:19):
We've talked about the Department of Health and Human Services before.
It is confusing.
It is complex.
We're not interviewing for that job.
That is so true.
This was not a one time misspeak.
These were over and over again in these six hours.
Senators were educating him about basic policies and procedures at HHS.
(16:40):
At one point, he was claiming that one of the largest complaints about Medicaid is that
it was costing too much for families and that the premiums were too high.
There are no premiums on Medicaid.
He also said something about how there was no police powers of HHS when actually CMS,
the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services, regularly do enforcement.
(17:03):
And he just wasn't even aware that that was part of what CMS does.
He said that Medicaid and Medicare were 100% federally funded when, in fact, states contribute
a significant portion of funding to these programs.
Oh, that's my computer.
I'll turn that off.
So these aren't just simple misstatements.
These are basic facts.
So there are definitely some concerns about his qualifications.
(17:26):
I just feel like in any job, any job, government or non-government, you would never be interviewing
a candidate to lead a department of something that they know nothing about.
And this is a, the amount of money that goes into HHS each year is huge.
So the powers he's going to have is enormous.
(17:48):
And if he doesn't understand what they do at a fundamental level, it's concerning what
that will look like.
And you mentioned that he's not qualified.
It's not that he's not a physician.
Lots of secretaries of Health and Human Services have not been physicians.
For the most part, they're not.
They tend to be people with a background in healthcare finance.
He's not a physician, but he also doesn't have a background in finance and he doesn't
(18:10):
have a background in healthcare.
No, he doesn't.
As we've talked about, he has a background in environmental law.
He has a background in conspiracy theories.
That was the other thing that really came out in this was the conspiracy theories.
Oh my God.
It was a lot.
He was asked directly about this.
This was so good.
This is Senator Kaine reading a tweet of RFK juniors.
(18:34):
On 9-11, it's hard to tell what is conspiracy theory and what isn't.
I'd like to introduce that for the record, Mr. Chair.
We take that kind of stuff pretty personally.
Virginians know what happened on 9-11.
We don't need folks given oxygen to conspiracy theories about 9-11.
(18:55):
One thing I noticed about this post is it was in July of 2024.
It was 23 years after 9-11.
You had a lot going on in your life.
You were running for president then.
What made you decide in the midst of everything going on in this country, in this world in
July of 2024, in your own candidacy for president, that now was the time to say it's hard to
(19:17):
tell what is conspiracy and what isn't about 9-11?
What was so important about making this point in July of 2024?
Senator the dramatic drop in trust in our government.
This is particularly one of the templates for that is what happened at CDC.
No, no.
I want to move aside from that.
(19:39):
Because you say, you go on to say, I won't take sides as president.
I won't take sides on 9-11.
Wow.
I won't take sides on 9-11.
Let me ask you this.
As a general matter, do you find it hard to tell what is a conspiracy theory and what
(20:01):
isn't?
Is that kind of a general deficit that you find in your own analytical abilities?
My father told me when I was 13 years old, he said people in authority lie and that the
job of a citizen in every democracy is to maintain a fear of skepticism.
(20:26):
And you're an authority.
And you're an authority.
But you won't take sides on 9-11.
I never thought that we'd be talking about sides on 9-11.
I'm just going to say that he's the authority that's lying.
Wow.
I can't believe that.
So it came out over and over again.
People were bringing up many of the conspiracy theories that he has said and then asking
if he had ever said these things.
(20:46):
Sometimes he said yes, sometimes said no.
And then they would bring up the context in which he had said it.
He would say, no, I never said that.
The senators had their receipts and were like, here's the quote of you saying it.
And he was like, oh, maybe I did say that.
So senators Bennett asked, did you say that Lyme disease is a militarized bioweapon?
And RFK's response, I probably said that.
There's a lot going on in his mind.
(21:08):
And the thing about conspiracy theories, these things do harm.
He's providing legitimacy to things that should not be in question.
He's providing legitimacy to anti-science.
And there were hundreds of conspiracy theories that were brought up.
Dozens of these.
Dozens, including COVID-19 was genetically engineered to target specific racial and ethnic
(21:29):
groups.
I just can't with that.
I really, it's so disturbing.
And I think Senator Kaine really got at it.
Like, do you find it hard to tell what's real and what's not, what's a conspiracy and what's
not?
And the reality is it is hard for him.
If he's 23 years later talking about, I won't take sides on 9-11, just imagine what that
(21:51):
will look like in the midst of a health outbreak, in the midst of a pandemic when somebody like
this is reading HHS.
Will he not take sides with evidence and no evidence?
I won't take sides on bird flu.
Maybe it's good.
I don't know.
It's concerning.
And that putting these conspiracy theories out there takes resources away from the trusted
(22:13):
science that we need.
And then it also perpetuates stigma.
Senator Smith.
Mr. Chair, thank you.
Welcome, Mr. Kennedy.
I know that you and your family have had personal experience with mental health challenges,
as have I.
So do you believe, as you've said, that antidepressants cause school shootings?
This should be a simple question.
(22:34):
I don't think anybody can answer that question.
I said it should be studied along with other potential culprits.
But I don't know.
There's no science on that.
Well, there is, Mr. Kennedy.
Science shows that there is no link between school shootings and antidepressants.
He's like, I don't know.
I just said we needed to study it.
We just need to study it.
I don't know.
There's no evidence that SSRIs cause school shootings.
(22:58):
And he just hasn't seen the science.
And then by making statements like that, it is harmful and it's perpetuating a stigma
around mental health.
And most school shooters have never been on an SSRI before in their life.
And maybe it would have helped them.
Having good mental health helps you make decisions that are better for you and better for other
people.
We should be promoting good mental health.
(23:20):
100%.
So the last thing that came out of these trials, they're not trials.
I keep calling them trials.
I did feel that way.
Yeah.
One of the things that came out of these hearings that was highly concerning to me was that
RFK Jr. kept making it clear that regardless of his opinion, regardless of fact, regardless
of science, that he will blindly follow President Trump's directions over everything else.
(23:44):
The number of times that he said, well, President Trump this, President Trump that, he said
this, he said that, it got to the point that Senator Hassan, I think, confronted him about
this.
This could be a rubber stamp for the administration.
Senator Hassan did question a lot about selling out his values in order to gain his position.
But that quote actually came from Senator Cortez Masto.
(24:06):
And I think it's worth listening to.
My question to you is, why are you there?
Are you there to be a rubber stamp to this administration and cave into all of these
positions that they're taking?
So these are many quotes that he said when talking to a Senator from Montana.
He said, President Trump has not yet asked me to take a stand on how to regulate Mifa
(24:29):
Pristone.
Whatever he does, I will implement those policies.
Oh no.
He said it twice.
He said it on each day.
So that was day one.
On day two, Senator Baldwin again brought up Mifa Pristone and how much science he needed.
And again, he've iterated, President Trump has not taken a stance on Mifa Pristone.
And once he has a policy, I will implement his policy.
(24:50):
And this is the moment that I felt true fear because Mifa Pristone is a medication that
is used for elective terminations.
It is safe.
There are more than 100 studies stating how safe it is.
So we've got the replication and complications occur in about 1% of people who take this
medication.
(25:11):
So 99% of people have no complications.
It's been FDA approved for 25 years.
And when asked if there was enough science to support the safety of Mifa Pristone, that
it would continue to be made available to people.
And he said he would follow Trump's policy on whether Mifa Pristone would be available
or not.
And that is scary because that is policy and personal opinion over science.
(25:35):
Senator Hassan also said, you are willing to sacrifice your values, your knowledge if
President Trump tells you to do that.
That to me is unacceptable in a secretary of Health and Human Services.
And I think that sums it up really well.
The reason why we have people in these positions is to educate the executive branch.
It's to provide support.
(25:56):
It's to lead the American people.
One person cannot be an expert in everything.
If you are blindly bending to the will of the executive branch, like why are you there?
Why do you exist?
Something that really was so apparent.
Health care in America under R.F.K. Jr., it's going to be implementing the policies that
(26:17):
President Trump comes up with without regard to the science, the implications or how it's
going to affect people.
I mean, he kept saying it himself.
He kept saying, I will do whatever President Trump tells me to.
And if you look through his history, he's also flip-flopped on a ton of stances to match
what President Trump has said.
And so for many years, R.F.K. Jr. has been pro-choice.
(26:42):
He thinks the government should not be involved in a woman's decision.
And in the past few months, he has totally 180'd in this stance.
And that was brought up by many people during the confirmation hearing.
He's just changed all of his views to emulate the views of Trump.
And that's concerning because it means we don't know what R.F.K. Jr. stands for and
(27:02):
we don't know what he's going to do in this position because everything that he says is
shifting, inconsistent and can be contradicted by finding something else that he said.
One question he was unable to answer was, quote, when was it that you decided to sell
out the values you've had your whole life in order to be given power by President Trump?
(27:22):
And the confirmation hearings have ended.
They were January 29th and January 30th, but the votes have not yet happened.
So this is a time, if you have feelings, to reach out to your senators, to reach out to
people and share how you're feeling.
This is going to be a very, very close vote.
And that's why we want to share the science, the facts, the statements that were made at
(27:43):
these hearings with you.
The Republican Party has a majority in the Senate.
Three Republicans need to oppose his nomination.
And no Democrats to support it.
And no Democrats.
So all the Democrats and three Republicans need to oppose his nomination in order for
him not to be nominated.
This is going to be a close one.
This is a contentious one.
(28:03):
And there are a lot of eyes on a specific number of senators, including Senator Cassidy,
who we talked about, a Republican from Louisiana that spent his career as a gastroenterologist.
There's eyes on Mitch McConnell, who personally experienced polio.
And there's thoughts that him having experienced that he'll have pro polio vaccination stamps.
(28:27):
It's super sad to me that you have to experience polio to understand polio.
If confirmed, it will have a major impact on health care in America.
We wanted to share this with you because whether he's confirmed or not, these statements, they're
really important.
I think these confirmation hearings made it clear how unqualified he is and that he is
(28:51):
in this position because he has pledged loyalty to President Trump.
He will be a yes man.
He made that clear.
I am concerned.
I am worried about the future of health care in America if this is the path that we're
going down.
And it isn't about a particular party.
It's when personal loyalties matter more than science.
(29:12):
That's the concern.
No matter who that personal loyalty is to, science and facts need to come first.
I can hold different personal beliefs about health care, about health care delivery than
politicians, than people that have been the secretary of health and human services in
the past.
But I feel like prior secretaries, even from different political parties, have had good
(29:33):
intentions, have wanted to improve health care.
We have just disagreed about how to improve health care with RFK Jr.
I'm concerned about his lack of understanding of health care in America.
And I'm not sure that he has particularly good intentions.
Confirmed or not, we'll be right here with you following these changes in health care
(29:53):
in America.
I'm Dr. Stephanie Rolin.
I'm Dr. Alicia Rolin.
This is the Rolin Forward podcast.
Please like, subscribe, follow us on social media.
We're sharing some different audio quotes there as well.
You can always send us an email at Rolin Forward Show, R-O-L-I-N, forwardshow at gmail.com.
(30:17):
And that's our show for this week.
Thank you for tuning in.
See you next time.
And now we're gonna make coffee.
I'm gonna make more coffee.
Um, okay.
Let's stop.
You too, stop.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!