August 5, 2025 • 27 mins
What happens when you drive home determined to leave your marriage and God intervenes with a blank billboard and an unmistakable voice? Mary Dunn's powerful testimony anchors this intimate conversation about marriage, divine intervention, and the courage to stay when everything in you wants to leave.
Mary takes us back to her corporate career days when, feeling isolated and emotionally distant from her husband, she made a bargain with God to let her out of her marriage. The response she received on that highway flyover would transform not just her relationship perspective but her entire life journey. "I was there when he made the promise," God told her, "so getting out isn't an option. However, I can make you the wife that Paul needs."
Now approaching their 44th anniversary, Mary shares the hard-earned wisdom that came from choosing to trust God's voice over her own desires. With refreshing honesty, she and host Denise Jackson explore the communication breakdowns that plague most marriages and the transformative power of simply asking, "What do you need from me?" Their conversation reveals why unspoken expectations become breeding grounds for resentment and how those "little irritants" that seem so important in the moment fade to insignificance with time and perspective.
What makes this conversation truly remarkable is the practical spiritual insight both women offer. They discuss the difference between immediate "Red Sea miracles" and the slow-unfolding transformations that sometimes take years. They share tangible practices like writing down both frustrations and appreciations, helping listeners shift their focus from problems to blessings. Most importantly, they remind us that each marriage is uniquely designed, with both partners bringing different fingerprints to the relationship.
Whether you're struggling in your relationship, supporting someone who is, or simply wanting to strengthen your marriage foundation, this conversation offers both comfort and challenge. Listen now and discover how to hear God's voice speaking into your specific situation, transforming not just your relationship but your own heart in the process.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Rooted in Rising.
I am so thrilled today to havea friend, mary Dunn, who is so
talented and God has used her somuch in my life.
She actually brings the messageat church often and she's
(00:21):
spoken to women's groups andshe's written, and she's so
talented.
I'm just thankful to have herhere to just have a conversation
between girlfriends, and sowe're really glad that you've
joined us today.
I'm Denise Jackson, this isMary Dunn, and let's get started
.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey, would you like to just tell a little bit about
your background to the ladiestonight?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So I grew up in Houston and went to high school
there, went to college at TexasA&M and actually had no idea
what I wanted to do.
But a friend of a friend ofmine graduated before and said I
think you ought to go intosales.
So I did and I went intotelecommunications at the time
(01:10):
this was in the early eightiesand just went through the sales
cycle, went through salesmanagement and then regional
sales and all that kind of thingand did that for almost 20
years and got married and hadtwo kids in the process and then
, after leaving corporateAmerica, I actually found out
(01:31):
later they were taking bets asto how long I would be gone,
because I didn't think I couldbe a stay-at-home mom, and I
lasted six weeks.
But anyway, a few years later,over a very interesting period
of time, we had moved to Montana.
Two different women that I hadrun into just on a walk one day
(01:54):
one woman on walk and then thenext week later at an event both
looked at me and said I reallythink you ought to consider
being a life coach.
I had no idea what that was.
They didn't give me a goodexplanation.
Then I came back to Texas and Iwas here having lunch with a
girlfriend and she said Mary, Ithink you'd make a really good
life coach.
(02:14):
And I was like, you're thethird person and I don't even
know what that is.
And she was like, well, don'tyou think you ought to figure it
out before God uses two by fournext time?
So I looked into it, went backto school, became a coach.
I did most of my coaching withpeople who were in corporate
jobs, but then it started toshift, and so I believe that God
(02:40):
used that education in coachingnot just for other people's
benefit, but mostly for mybenefit, as he often does.
And through that, it wasthrough that I got involved in
the International CoachingFederation and I was asked to be
on the board of the Austinchapter, and so it was through
(03:00):
that that I started speaking.
People would ask me to comespeak, and then, you know, I
love neuroscience, and so I wasalways intersecting neuroscience
with my faith, and so that'show I got to speak at women's
conferences and faith-basedorganizations.
So, anyway, so, and then, asyou know, occasionally our
pastor both our previous pastor,the family pastor, and this
(03:22):
pastor, our pastor both ourprevious pastor, the family
pastor, and this pastor willoccasionally ask me to share a
message with the congregation,with the body, and that's always
a very humbling experience.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And it's a very big blessing for the congregation.
We always feel like it's soperfect for the moment, which we
both know is God.
He has this perfect timing.
That's right, absolutely.
I love knowing more about yourstory and you knowing more about
mine.
It's so interesting.
(03:54):
We grew up in the same age ofthis earth and so similar in the
things that we faced and ourchoices as we moved through life
, and one of the reasons that Ilove this podcast is because it
(04:14):
gives us the chance to helpother women see that we're not
so alone out there, and when Iwas young, I felt that way.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And when I was young I feltthat way, oh, absolutely
Absolutely.
Because of choices, like yousay, that I've made, and poor
choices on my part that I oftenmade, I felt alone and isolated.
Yeah, and you and I spoke alittle bit before we started
that.
You know, relationships arehard.
They are.
You know, relationships arehard.
It doesn't matter if it's withyou know, a family member, a
(04:47):
spouse, the people who areclosest to us, relationships are
just hard.
And even relationships withsisters.
I have two sisters and you grow.
You're from the same gene pool,you grow up with the same
parents and yet somewhere alongthe way two will get along well
and the other two cannot getalong well.
And I was raised in a verytraditional Catholic background
(05:14):
and so I had more religion thanI did.
Relationship, yes.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And so, so I have that same background and I also
am one of four sisters.
Yeah, well, I have two sistersand a brother.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So when I told you the story about I was married
and we had had our two children,and we had a son and then we
had a daughter, and in my mind Iwas like, okay, we've had one
of each.
Everything after that is arepeat.
We're just going to call itgood, we have one of each.
Everything after that is arepeat.
So we're just going to call itgood, we have one of each and
(05:48):
that's good.
And I was working, I was aworking mom, so anyway, but my
relationship and my husband wasworking and that's a hard place
in life, you know and ourmarriage at the time that you
and I were talking this was along time ago was very difficult
and I did not have the tools tonavigate how that was supposed
(06:14):
to be.
And I have a strong personality.
I had a big job, I had a lot ofpeople working for me, I could
motivate them and inspire themand that kind of thing.
It worked at the office, butthose same tools did not work at
home and I did not know how toshift gears and or if you wanted
(06:36):
to.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I mean, I remember that I was like look, if you're
not going to get on board, yeahyeah, that's right, absolutely,
and.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I've always been very direct Diplomacy is not my
strong suit, but I have a pureheart most of the time when I'm
talking to people directly.
But anyway, I told you it wasone of the first times that I
felt so alone and isolatedbecause I couldn't tell my
parents.
I didn't feel like I could andI really didn't have any
(07:10):
girlfriends.
When I was in the corporateworld my job was really.
I was surrounded by men.
It was mostly men.
I was one of two managers inour company female managers so I
didn't have a lot ofgirlfriends there.
And I was on my way home onenight and I was in a tough spot
(07:30):
in my marriage and I felt likeemotionally I was kind of
checked out not kind of I was,and I didn't know what to do
about it and I was afraid.
But in my mind I went to logicand I said, well, I have this
great job and I can supportmyself and my two kids.
So I got that.
(07:51):
And then I went through a listin my head of all the things
that I would take from the houseand all the things that he
could have.
You know, I did the whole.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, you were preparing yourself ahead of time
.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes, and I had, you know, it was all the lists and
the thing, and then I was goingto put together a strategy on
how to get it done, becauseproductivity was very important
to me.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Let's not miss a beat .
That's right.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
We're not going through chaos, we're not going
to miss a beat and we're goingto check all the things off and
we're going to do it withexcellence, yes.
However, I was on my way homeand I told the Lord.
I was like, hey, I can't dothis and so I need to help you.
I need you to help me.
You know, back away from thismarriage, and I did not know the
(08:39):
Lord as my Lord and Savior atthe time that my husband and I
got married, and so I said youweren't really involved.
I didn't get you involved onthe front end of this, but if
you let me out of this, I'll getyou involved in the next one.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I laughed at that before because it's like that's
what we do.
We'll like make deals with Goduntil we really have that deep
personal relationship with himand then we can trust him.
But when we're beginning we're,we're like look if you'll do
this.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I'll do this because it was weird to me and I was
like this makes sense and it'slogical, and so here's, you know
.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
And so now I don't I don't do that anymore now.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I'm just like here's the situation and I'm listening.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yes, because yeah, but you have to tell the
billboard story, because I waslike oh, okay, so I um.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So I said that to the lord, you know I'll start over,
let me start over and I'll getyou involved from the get-go.
And I also told him.
I said, look, I need a big signhere because I need to know
that it's you.
And at the time I had neverheard the Lord's voice.
I'm sure I probably had, butdidn't recognize it.
(09:48):
But you didn't recognize ityeah.
But I was looking for it now.
I was like I need to hear fromyou.
And we lived in the woodlandsand I worked in downtown Houston
and so I was coming home andthere was kind of this flyover
area of the toll road that youknow went to the
Intercontinental Airport andthey had one of these new
billboards.
That it was one thing for awhile and then the whole thing
(10:10):
flipped over.
It was like levers on ashutters, you know, and then it
flipped over and it was adifferent advertisement.
And before I got to that pointI was like Lord, you know, I
need a big sign, like I need abillboard.
You know, I need you to writeit out that I'm good to go.
I'll do, I just need the greenlight.
And I got it, you know.
(10:30):
And um, and so I came, I justremembered, I remember, like it
was yesterday, driving up overthe flyover, and I looked up at
the billboard, cause I'd seenthat billboard every day, right,
and it went from one thing andit went to flip, and I was ready
for the next thing that it said.
(10:51):
I honestly, it was a state farmadvertisement.
I was ready for the guy from astate farm to show up and it was
nothing.
It was blank white and itfrightened me because I thought,
oh, my goodness, I mean Ithought what just happened to
this billboard?
And so I remained quiet.
(11:11):
And I know that, I know that Iheard the Lord's voice, as if he
was sitting right there in theseat beside me, and it wouldn't
surprise me if I actually turnedand looked.
But he said in a way that couldnever have been my voice,
because he never says what Iwould have said and he never
says it like I would have saidit.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You know.
So he said I was there.
I was there when he made thepromise, and so getting out
isn't an option.
However, I can make you thewife that Paul needs, and my
(12:00):
next statement was well, see,here's the thing, I'm not the
problem.
So I thought he was having likean identity crisis.
You know that he was like oh,I'm going to work on you, when I
was saying no, no, you need towork on him.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I'm only laughing because I remember me in the
same spot.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, and we think, and, to be honest, I could have
given the Lord a list.
Here are the things that youhave done or he has said, or he
has not done or has not said,never reflecting on my responses
or my reactions.
And so he basically said youknow I can work it out and in
(12:40):
the moment I wasn't sure whatthat looked like, but as you and
I have also talked, I do knownow that, and I've seen this
many times from that time tothis time, which has been 30
years, um.
So next month, just to leteverybody know, next month, may
16th or this month, this is May.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
It's like next week honey.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Good planning, yeah, good planning.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I don't do that anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So May 16th we will be married 44 years.
Oh my gosh, what a blessing.
So, yeah, so the Lord justbasically said look, you know
I'm going to work on you.
And what I didn't hear him sayis I'm going to work on Paul.
But what I do know now is thatthere are Red Sea miracles,
(13:26):
there are immediate miracles.
I still believe those, I haveseen them, we've had one in our
own family, and so I have upclose and personal experience
with there being a miracle.
I also understand thatsometimes miracles are 10 years
in the making or five years inthe making, and we're looking.
You know, I needed in my world,in that corporate life, that I
(13:50):
was living right.
What I was asking for was byFriday.
I needed to see something byFriday so that I knew, okay,
that there was hope, that therewas the next thing.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So you had this conversation with the Lord and
then you're walking in it andit's not happening.
What did he do?
Were there other ways that heencouraged or taught you so that
you kept going?
Because you stayed in that path, Right?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
right, I absolutely did, and part of it was even
though I did not have a closepersonal relationship with Jesus
at that time.
I knew by the tone of his voicewhen he said I can't let you
out, but you know I can make youthe wife on these that there
(14:42):
was hope that he, that there wassomething.
Just hearing his voice, thatthere was something that was
going to happen.
And then I had a friend alongthe way that I confided in about
you know that I was strugglingwith this and she kind of looked
at me like you know, it's justanother relationship and every
(15:07):
relationship has issues.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yes, I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So sometimes the issue lasts for a minute or an
hour, you know, and sometimesthe problem lasts for a day or a
week.
And I'm communicative.
My husband is not ascommunicative and I had to find
(15:29):
the place where I could ask thequestion and then be quiet,
Because in my job I was the onethat people came to and said
Mary, I have this problem, whatdo I do?
And I was like okay, this iswhat you do, blah, blah, blah,
and I could give the answer.
You know, I was the shellanswer man.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
There was a shell answer, man, I understand, so I
knew how to do that part.
I didn't know how to do thepart that says what do you need
from me?
Are you happy?
What do you need from me?
Um, and here's what I need fromyou, or yes?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
wait, wait, wait.
You just flipped over that toofast, because that is the.
There are two parts there.
What do you need from me?
And here's what I need, here iswhat I really need from you.
I remember telling lee we werein a fight and young and I said
he said what do you expect of me?
(16:28):
And I said right now, I wouldjust really like a hug, I would
just like you to stop talking,and I will stop talking and you
will just give me a hug.
Do you still love me?
You know, and I needed that,and but I had never said that.
And then, after that, he knewthat.
He knew that when I got reallywet, what I really needed first
was I just needed him to hold meand remind me that, no matter
(16:50):
what it was, we could getthrough that season If he would
do that one little thing, youknow but I'd never told him that
season if he would do that onelittle thing, you know, but I've
never told him, and that'sright, and we don't.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
and and let me just tell you unspoken expectations
are the invitation to resentmentas soon as you realize that you
are not speaking yourexpectations.
If you're not speaking them,they're going to end up being a
resentment because you're goingto want it and not know why he
won't give it to you and it'sbecause you've never asked for
(17:22):
it.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
There's going to be at some point where you can't
hold it in anymore and it'sgoing to come out like a dang
volcano pouring lava overeverything, not just your
husband everything.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I don't want that in my life anymore.
I've chosen that I've done thattoo, I mean we go through that.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
We think these blow-ups will help things, yeah,
and so, um, it really was afunction of learning how to
communicate, and you know, youand I've talked about this as
well.
But, um, you know, men aretypically fixers.
They want to know what they cando to help to fix the whatever.
And because they're seen thatway, they're wired to provide
(18:06):
and protect and that means tofix the problem.
And women, we have a high level, high threat level, because we
have, you know, children and allkinds of things.
We're looking for anything thatcould threaten us.
You know, our brains are justwired that way.
And so when we're upset, whenI've been upset, I have gone to
(18:28):
Paul and said this, this, this,this, this and and these three
things.
Well, I like dump eight things.
Yeah, because you held them infor a while.
I held them in and the realityof it was, the reality of it is
is that really, seven of thosethings are symptoms and we
really haven't found, you know,the root cause yet.
(18:50):
And so I think, maturity, andmaturity in this regard, having
a conversation when you can backaway from some of the emotion
and speak in a way that saysthis is what happened and this
is what you said and this is howit landed.
(19:12):
Is that what you meant?
Those kind of things.
And I know that.
You know, you and I love God'sword and we've heard a lot of
pastors say, a lot of preacherssay, you know, don't let the sun
go down on your anger Right,and so that means fixing the
fight before you get back.
Well, the Lord and I had totalk about that and I said to
(19:33):
the Lord I trust you to make thesun go down again tomorrow,
Because this is not talking tohim today, this is not going to
get worked out tonight.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
But you know what, denise, that was the right thing
to do at the time because Ineeded Well, it's because those
laws are too hard to bear toothat people put on and it's not
just God's word laws.
They put it on us and say thisis how it should work.
But when we get with the Lord,he's so patient and he's so kind
(20:03):
and he walks us through andteaches us what we can do right
then and what we need to doright then and what we can let
rest, and I think that's thebest thing that.
I've gotten out of hearing hisvoice in those seasons.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Is let it rest, just let it rest.
And the other thing is, youknow, I hope we're talking to
women that are half our age,because those are, you know.
And I have a daughter who's 38,and she's a widow, and I
remember little stories that shetold me she was married for 13
years and just became a widow ayear ago, and some of the things
(20:43):
that she remembers now are sheremembers all the good things
and I said and there were a lotof good things, right, like
there's a lot of good things inmy marriage, but there's also
those little irritants.
And let me just say to you thatthose little irritants are not
even worth discussing, becauseif you have a good husband,
(21:06):
which you and I do, I know thatI irritate him and he overlooks
it because it's like that's notworth the time and the energy
and the disconnect to deal withthat.
That's just not worth that.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So that just made me remember.
God spoke to me once when I wasso angry with Lee.
I actually have Gail Brown, myfriend.
That's been one of my friendsfor my whole life.
I started telling her about itand she was telling me how good
we was.
And I went home and the Lordjust spoke to me and said I want
(21:46):
you to pull out this paper andwrite all those things down that
you're mad at me about.
And then he said and then Iwant you to write down why you
loved him and love him today.
And I did that back in the 90s.
I found it the other day whenwe were getting ready to talk to
some married couples and Irealized that I've been doing
(22:10):
that since then.
Whenever I was frustrated in anysituation, I wrote down all
that frustration.
I put it down there for theLord to see and for me to see.
And then I said but wait, whatis good?
And the good was like sooverwhelming that the bad just
got forgotten.
It just got tossed into a boxfor me to find years later and
(22:33):
the things that I said were good.
I remembered I'd written thosedown and looked at my husband
and he was so much more of thosethings now than he was back
then.
So I think that you know thatwas such a good word.
Oh my god you guys, I, you knowI think the Lord speaks
individually to you.
(22:54):
He speaks one-on-one to you.
He wants you to hear his voiceand I, like um, can say his
voice doesn't sound like myvoice.
He says things to me that I'mnot going to tell myself.
I don't even want to hear itsometimes.
Sometimes I do want to hear it.
He knows just what my heartneeds to hear.
(23:16):
So I hope that you will seek Him.
It says in the Word that if youseek Him with all your heart,
you will find Him.
When you seek Him with all yourheart that's the Word you will
find Him when you seek Him withall your heart.
So seek the Lord, because hewants personal relationship with
you.
They'll writ and you don't haveto wait on somebody to tell you
(23:40):
what his word says.
You can come in freely and hangout with your father.
He wants that.
So like this has been such agreat conversation and I'd hate
to even wrap it up.
So what I'm going to tell youis you're coming back because we
have so much more to talk aboutthat will help these younger
(24:02):
women to walk their walk andeven even women, our age as
married, as as long as we'vebeen married, there's still
things along the way.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Um, you know, part of what our journey is is is to
become more like Christ, and wewill never get there until we
take our last breath.
So there's always things, and Ithink one of the last things I
would say to anybody watching isunderstand that how you're
built is so unique and yourfingerprint is like no one
(24:36):
else's and your husband is sounique and his fingerprint is
like no one else's.
And your husband is so uniqueand his fingerprint is like no
one else's.
And God called you all togetherbecause we learn from one
another and growth is notcomfortable and we rub up
against one another and it'slike sandpaper, but your
relationship is nuanced to thepoint that every relationship
(24:57):
ultimately is to reflect Jesus.
So you are only asked to doyour part.
You are not asked to do hispart, and that's where I pray
for my husband is.
I pray for my part and I praythat the Lord is speaking to him
.
I don't have to speak to him.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
So normally I will say what is the last word that
you want to give, and Mary is sogood, she just knew that.
I just like to pray for usright now.
Father, I just thank you thatthis conversation is going to
encourage and inspire more womento trust you more deeply.
(25:36):
I also ask for friendships tosurround them, because it is
good that we don't walk alonethrough the earth, that we walk
with our husbands as friends,but also that we have
girlfriends.
So I just pray for that, father, that you send those
girlfriends, the ones that willbuild us up in our inner man,
that will help us hold tightlywhen things are tough, and to
(26:00):
remind us that we have what wehave already the blessings that
we have in our lives.
I pray that for each one ofthese women that are listening
today.
I pray it over our families.
I trust you, we trust you, welove you, lord, and we're just
grateful that you call us byname and the name of Jesus.
Amen, thank you.
(26:20):
Thank you, okay.
Welcome to Rooted in Rising.
I am so thrilled today to havea friend, mary Dunn, who is so
talented and God has used her somuch in my life.
She actually brings the messageat church often and she's
(00:21):
spoken to women's groups andshe's written, and she's so
talented.
I'm just thankful to have herhere to just have a conversation
between girlfriends, and sowe're really glad that you've
joined us today.
I'm Denise Jackson, this isMary Dunn, and let's get started
.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hey, would you like to just tell a little bit about
your background to the ladiestonight?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So I grew up in Houston and went to high school
there, went to college at TexasA&M and actually had no idea
what I wanted to do.
But a friend of a friend ofmine graduated before and said I
think you ought to go intosales.
So I did and I went intotelecommunications at the time
(01:10):
this was in the early eightiesand just went through the sales
cycle, went through salesmanagement and then regional
sales and all that kind of thingand did that for almost 20
years and got married and hadtwo kids in the process and then
, after leaving corporateAmerica, I actually found out
(01:31):
later they were taking bets asto how long I would be gone,
because I didn't think I couldbe a stay-at-home mom, and I
lasted six weeks.
But anyway, a few years later,over a very interesting period
of time, we had moved to Montana.
Two different women that I hadrun into just on a walk one day
(01:54):
one woman on walk and then thenext week later at an event both
looked at me and said I reallythink you ought to consider
being a life coach.
I had no idea what that was.
They didn't give me a goodexplanation.
Then I came back to Texas and Iwas here having lunch with a
girlfriend and she said Mary, Ithink you'd make a really good
life coach.
(02:14):
And I was like, you're thethird person and I don't even
know what that is.
And she was like, well, don'tyou think you ought to figure it
out before God uses two by fournext time?
So I looked into it, went backto school, became a coach.
I did most of my coaching withpeople who were in corporate
jobs, but then it started toshift, and so I believe that God
(02:40):
used that education in coachingnot just for other people's
benefit, but mostly for mybenefit, as he often does.
And through that, it wasthrough that I got involved in
the International CoachingFederation and I was asked to be
on the board of the Austinchapter, and so it was through
(03:00):
that that I started speaking.
People would ask me to comespeak, and then, you know, I
love neuroscience, and so I wasalways intersecting neuroscience
with my faith, and so that'show I got to speak at women's
conferences and faith-basedorganizations.
So, anyway, so, and then, asyou know, occasionally our
pastor both our previous pastor,the family pastor, and this
(03:22):
pastor, our pastor both ourprevious pastor, the family
pastor, and this pastor willoccasionally ask me to share a
message with the congregation,with the body, and that's always
a very humbling experience.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And it's a very big blessing for the congregation.
We always feel like it's soperfect for the moment, which we
both know is God.
He has this perfect timing.
That's right, absolutely.
I love knowing more about yourstory and you knowing more about
mine.
It's so interesting.
(03:54):
We grew up in the same age ofthis earth and so similar in the
things that we faced and ourchoices as we moved through life
, and one of the reasons that Ilove this podcast is because it
(04:14):
gives us the chance to helpother women see that we're not
so alone out there, and when Iwas young, I felt that way.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And when I was young I feltthat way, oh, absolutely
Absolutely.
Because of choices, like yousay, that I've made, and poor
choices on my part that I oftenmade, I felt alone and isolated.
Yeah, and you and I spoke alittle bit before we started
that.
You know, relationships arehard.
They are.
You know, relationships arehard.
It doesn't matter if it's withyou know, a family member, a
(04:47):
spouse, the people who areclosest to us, relationships are
just hard.
And even relationships withsisters.
I have two sisters and you grow.
You're from the same gene pool,you grow up with the same
parents and yet somewhere alongthe way two will get along well
and the other two cannot getalong well.
And I was raised in a verytraditional Catholic background
(05:14):
and so I had more religion thanI did.
Relationship, yes.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And so, so I have that same background and I also
am one of four sisters.
Yeah, well, I have two sistersand a brother.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So when I told you the story about I was married
and we had had our two children,and we had a son and then we
had a daughter, and in my mind Iwas like, okay, we've had one
of each.
Everything after that is arepeat.
We're just going to call itgood, we have one of each.
Everything after that is arepeat.
So we're just going to call itgood, we have one of each and
(05:48):
that's good.
And I was working, I was aworking mom, so anyway, but my
relationship and my husband wasworking and that's a hard place
in life, you know and ourmarriage at the time that you
and I were talking this was along time ago was very difficult
and I did not have the tools tonavigate how that was supposed
(06:14):
to be.
And I have a strong personality.
I had a big job, I had a lot ofpeople working for me, I could
motivate them and inspire themand that kind of thing.
It worked at the office, butthose same tools did not work at
home and I did not know how toshift gears and or if you wanted
(06:36):
to.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I mean, I remember that I was like look, if you're
not going to get on board, yeahyeah, that's right, absolutely,
and.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I've always been very direct Diplomacy is not my
strong suit, but I have a pureheart most of the time when I'm
talking to people directly.
But anyway, I told you it wasone of the first times that I
felt so alone and isolatedbecause I couldn't tell my
parents.
I didn't feel like I could andI really didn't have any
(07:10):
girlfriends.
When I was in the corporateworld my job was really.
I was surrounded by men.
It was mostly men.
I was one of two managers inour company female managers so I
didn't have a lot ofgirlfriends there.
And I was on my way home onenight and I was in a tough spot
(07:30):
in my marriage and I felt likeemotionally I was kind of
checked out not kind of I was,and I didn't know what to do
about it and I was afraid.
But in my mind I went to logicand I said, well, I have this
great job and I can supportmyself and my two kids.
So I got that.
(07:51):
And then I went through a listin my head of all the things
that I would take from the houseand all the things that he
could have.
You know, I did the whole.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, you were preparing yourself ahead of time
.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yes, and I had, you know, it was all the lists and
the thing, and then I was goingto put together a strategy on
how to get it done, becauseproductivity was very important
to me.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Let's not miss a beat .
That's right.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
We're not going through chaos, we're not going
to miss a beat and we're goingto check all the things off and
we're going to do it withexcellence, yes.
However, I was on my way homeand I told the Lord.
I was like, hey, I can't dothis and so I need to help you.
I need you to help me.
You know, back away from thismarriage, and I did not know the
(08:39):
Lord as my Lord and Savior atthe time that my husband and I
got married, and so I said youweren't really involved.
I didn't get you involved onthe front end of this, but if
you let me out of this, I'll getyou involved in the next one.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I laughed at that before because it's like that's
what we do.
We'll like make deals with Goduntil we really have that deep
personal relationship with himand then we can trust him.
But when we're beginning we're,we're like look if you'll do
this.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I'll do this because it was weird to me and I was
like this makes sense and it'slogical, and so here's, you know
.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
And so now I don't I don't do that anymore now.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I'm just like here's the situation and I'm listening.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yes, because yeah, but you have to tell the
billboard story, because I waslike oh, okay, so I um.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So I said that to the lord, you know I'll start over,
let me start over and I'll getyou involved from the get-go.
And I also told him.
I said, look, I need a big signhere because I need to know
that it's you.
And at the time I had neverheard the Lord's voice.
I'm sure I probably had, butdidn't recognize it.
(09:48):
But you didn't recognize ityeah.
But I was looking for it now.
I was like I need to hear fromyou.
And we lived in the woodlandsand I worked in downtown Houston
and so I was coming home andthere was kind of this flyover
area of the toll road that youknow went to the
Intercontinental Airport andthey had one of these new
billboards.
That it was one thing for awhile and then the whole thing
(10:10):
flipped over.
It was like levers on ashutters, you know, and then it
flipped over and it was adifferent advertisement.
And before I got to that pointI was like Lord, you know, I
need a big sign, like I need abillboard.
You know, I need you to writeit out that I'm good to go.
I'll do, I just need the greenlight.
And I got it, you know.
(10:30):
And um, and so I came, I justremembered, I remember, like it
was yesterday, driving up overthe flyover, and I looked up at
the billboard, cause I'd seenthat billboard every day, right,
and it went from one thing andit went to flip, and I was ready
for the next thing that it said.
(10:51):
I honestly, it was a state farmadvertisement.
I was ready for the guy from astate farm to show up and it was
nothing.
It was blank white and itfrightened me because I thought,
oh, my goodness, I mean Ithought what just happened to
this billboard?
And so I remained quiet.
(11:11):
And I know that, I know that Iheard the Lord's voice, as if he
was sitting right there in theseat beside me, and it wouldn't
surprise me if I actually turnedand looked.
But he said in a way that couldnever have been my voice,
because he never says what Iwould have said and he never
says it like I would have saidit.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yes, I agree.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
You know.
So he said I was there.
I was there when he made thepromise, and so getting out
isn't an option.
However, I can make you thewife that Paul needs, and my
(12:00):
next statement was well, see,here's the thing, I'm not the
problem.
So I thought he was having likean identity crisis.
You know that he was like oh,I'm going to work on you, when I
was saying no, no, you need towork on him.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I'm only laughing because I remember me in the
same spot.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, and we think, and, to be honest, I could have
given the Lord a list.
Here are the things that youhave done or he has said, or he
has not done or has not said,never reflecting on my responses
or my reactions.
And so he basically said youknow I can work it out and in
(12:40):
the moment I wasn't sure whatthat looked like, but as you and
I have also talked, I do knownow that, and I've seen this
many times from that time tothis time, which has been 30
years, um.
So next month, just to leteverybody know, next month, may
16th or this month, this is May.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
It's like next week honey.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Good planning, yeah, good planning.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I don't do that anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So May 16th we will be married 44 years.
Oh my gosh, what a blessing.
So, yeah, so the Lord justbasically said look, you know
I'm going to work on you.
And what I didn't hear him sayis I'm going to work on Paul.
But what I do know now is thatthere are Red Sea miracles,
(13:26):
there are immediate miracles.
I still believe those, I haveseen them, we've had one in our
own family, and so I have upclose and personal experience
with there being a miracle.
I also understand thatsometimes miracles are 10 years
in the making or five years inthe making, and we're looking.
You know, I needed in my world,in that corporate life, that I
(13:50):
was living right.
What I was asking for was byFriday.
I needed to see something byFriday so that I knew, okay,
that there was hope, that therewas the next thing.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
So you had this conversation with the Lord and
then you're walking in it andit's not happening.
What did he do?
Were there other ways that heencouraged or taught you so that
you kept going?
Because you stayed in that path, Right?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
right, I absolutely did, and part of it was even
though I did not have a closepersonal relationship with Jesus
at that time.
I knew by the tone of his voicewhen he said I can't let you
out, but you know I can make youthe wife on these that there
(14:42):
was hope that he, that there wassomething.
Just hearing his voice, thatthere was something that was
going to happen.
And then I had a friend alongthe way that I confided in about
you know that I was strugglingwith this and she kind of looked
at me like you know, it's justanother relationship and every
(15:07):
relationship has issues.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yes, I love that.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So sometimes the issue lasts for a minute or an
hour, you know, and sometimesthe problem lasts for a day or a
week.
And I'm communicative.
My husband is not ascommunicative and I had to find
(15:29):
the place where I could ask thequestion and then be quiet,
Because in my job I was the onethat people came to and said
Mary, I have this problem, whatdo I do?
And I was like okay, this iswhat you do, blah, blah, blah,
and I could give the answer.
You know, I was the shellanswer man.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
There was a shell answer, man, I understand, so I
knew how to do that part.
I didn't know how to do thepart that says what do you need
from me?
Are you happy?
What do you need from me?
Um, and here's what I need fromyou, or yes?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
wait, wait, wait.
You just flipped over that toofast, because that is the.
There are two parts there.
What do you need from me?
And here's what I need, here iswhat I really need from you.
I remember telling lee we werein a fight and young and I said
he said what do you expect of me?
(16:28):
And I said right now, I wouldjust really like a hug, I would
just like you to stop talking,and I will stop talking and you
will just give me a hug.
Do you still love me?
You know, and I needed that,and but I had never said that.
And then, after that, he knewthat.
He knew that when I got reallywet, what I really needed first
was I just needed him to hold meand remind me that, no matter
(16:50):
what it was, we could getthrough that season If he would
do that one little thing, youknow but I'd never told him that
season if he would do that onelittle thing, you know, but I've
never told him, and that'sright, and we don't.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
and and let me just tell you unspoken expectations
are the invitation to resentmentas soon as you realize that you
are not speaking yourexpectations.
If you're not speaking them,they're going to end up being a
resentment because you're goingto want it and not know why he
won't give it to you and it'sbecause you've never asked for
(17:22):
it.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
There's going to be at some point where you can't
hold it in anymore and it'sgoing to come out like a dang
volcano pouring lava overeverything, not just your
husband everything.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
I don't want that in my life anymore.
I've chosen that I've done thattoo, I mean we go through that.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
We think these blow-ups will help things, yeah,
and so, um, it really was afunction of learning how to
communicate, and you know, youand I've talked about this as
well.
But, um, you know, men aretypically fixers.
They want to know what they cando to help to fix the whatever.
And because they're seen thatway, they're wired to provide
(18:06):
and protect and that means tofix the problem.
And women, we have a high level, high threat level, because we
have, you know, children and allkinds of things.
We're looking for anything thatcould threaten us.
You know, our brains are justwired that way.
And so when we're upset, whenI've been upset, I have gone to
(18:28):
Paul and said this, this, this,this, this and and these three
things.
Well, I like dump eight things.
Yeah, because you held them infor a while.
I held them in and the realityof it was, the reality of it is
is that really, seven of thosethings are symptoms and we
really haven't found, you know,the root cause yet.
(18:50):
And so I think, maturity, andmaturity in this regard, having
a conversation when you can backaway from some of the emotion
and speak in a way that saysthis is what happened and this
is what you said and this is howit landed.
(19:12):
Is that what you meant?
Those kind of things.
And I know that.
You know, you and I love God'sword and we've heard a lot of
pastors say, a lot of preacherssay, you know, don't let the sun
go down on your anger Right,and so that means fixing the
fight before you get back.
Well, the Lord and I had totalk about that and I said to
(19:33):
the Lord I trust you to make thesun go down again tomorrow,
Because this is not talking tohim today, this is not going to
get worked out tonight.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
But you know what, denise, that was the right thing
to do at the time because Ineeded Well, it's because those
laws are too hard to bear toothat people put on and it's not
just God's word laws.
They put it on us and say thisis how it should work.
But when we get with the Lord,he's so patient and he's so kind
(20:03):
and he walks us through andteaches us what we can do right
then and what we need to doright then and what we can let
rest, and I think that's thebest thing that.
I've gotten out of hearing hisvoice in those seasons.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Is let it rest, just let it rest.
And the other thing is, youknow, I hope we're talking to
women that are half our age,because those are, you know.
And I have a daughter who's 38,and she's a widow, and I
remember little stories that shetold me she was married for 13
years and just became a widow ayear ago, and some of the things
(20:43):
that she remembers now are sheremembers all the good things
and I said and there were a lotof good things, right, like
there's a lot of good things inmy marriage, but there's also
those little irritants.
And let me just say to you thatthose little irritants are not
even worth discussing, becauseif you have a good husband,
(21:06):
which you and I do, I know thatI irritate him and he overlooks
it because it's like that's notworth the time and the energy
and the disconnect to deal withthat.
That's just not worth that.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So that just made me remember.
God spoke to me once when I wasso angry with Lee.
I actually have Gail Brown, myfriend.
That's been one of my friendsfor my whole life.
I started telling her about itand she was telling me how good
we was.
And I went home and the Lordjust spoke to me and said I want
(21:46):
you to pull out this paper andwrite all those things down that
you're mad at me about.
And then he said and then Iwant you to write down why you
loved him and love him today.
And I did that back in the 90s.
I found it the other day whenwe were getting ready to talk to
some married couples and Irealized that I've been doing
(22:10):
that since then.
Whenever I was frustrated in anysituation, I wrote down all
that frustration.
I put it down there for theLord to see and for me to see.
And then I said but wait, whatis good?
And the good was like sooverwhelming that the bad just
got forgotten.
It just got tossed into a boxfor me to find years later and
(22:33):
the things that I said were good.
I remembered I'd written thosedown and looked at my husband
and he was so much more of thosethings now than he was back
then.
So I think that you know thatwas such a good word.
Oh my god you guys, I, you knowI think the Lord speaks
individually to you.
(22:54):
He speaks one-on-one to you.
He wants you to hear his voiceand I, like um, can say his
voice doesn't sound like myvoice.
He says things to me that I'mnot going to tell myself.
I don't even want to hear itsometimes.
Sometimes I do want to hear it.
He knows just what my heartneeds to hear.
(23:16):
So I hope that you will seek Him.
It says in the Word that if youseek Him with all your heart,
you will find Him.
When you seek Him with all yourheart that's the Word you will
find Him when you seek Him withall your heart.
So seek the Lord, because hewants personal relationship with
you.
They'll writ and you don't haveto wait on somebody to tell you
(23:40):
what his word says.
You can come in freely and hangout with your father.
He wants that.
So like this has been such agreat conversation and I'd hate
to even wrap it up.
So what I'm going to tell youis you're coming back because we
have so much more to talk aboutthat will help these younger
(24:02):
women to walk their walk andeven even women, our age as
married, as as long as we'vebeen married, there's still
things along the way.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Um, you know, part of what our journey is is is to
become more like Christ, and wewill never get there until we
take our last breath.
So there's always things, and Ithink one of the last things I
would say to anybody watching isunderstand that how you're
built is so unique and yourfingerprint is like no one
(24:36):
else's and your husband is sounique and his fingerprint is
like no one else's.
And your husband is so uniqueand his fingerprint is like no
one else's.
And God called you all togetherbecause we learn from one
another and growth is notcomfortable and we rub up
against one another and it'slike sandpaper, but your
relationship is nuanced to thepoint that every relationship
(24:57):
ultimately is to reflect Jesus.
So you are only asked to doyour part.
You are not asked to do hispart, and that's where I pray
for my husband is.
I pray for my part and I praythat the Lord is speaking to him
.
I don't have to speak to him.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
So normally I will say what is the last word that
you want to give, and Mary is sogood, she just knew that.
I just like to pray for usright now.
Father, I just thank you thatthis conversation is going to
encourage and inspire more womento trust you more deeply.
(25:36):
I also ask for friendships tosurround them, because it is
good that we don't walk alonethrough the earth, that we walk
with our husbands as friends,but also that we have
girlfriends.
So I just pray for that, father, that you send those
girlfriends, the ones that willbuild us up in our inner man,
that will help us hold tightlywhen things are tough, and to
(26:00):
remind us that we have what wehave already the blessings that
we have in our lives.
I pray that for each one ofthese women that are listening
today.
I pray it over our families.
I trust you, we trust you, welove you, lord, and we're just
grateful that you call us byname and the name of Jesus.
Amen, thank you.
(26:20):
Thank you, okay.
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