Gambling: has the internet turned your phone into a 24/7 addiction machine? – Mark Kempster

It promised to modernise an age-old activity, bringing new convenience to a quick thrill. Instead, it’s delivered a predatory, 24/7 addiction machine that exploits our psychology with algorithms, leading to what many consider a serious public health crisis.

To help us understand what’s really at stake, we’re joined by Mark Kempster, a gambling reform advocate, and member of Australia’s Alliance For Gambling Reform’s Voices of Lived Experience program.

https://www.instagram.com/mark_kempster
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-kempster-2925317b/
https://x.com/OffOdds
https://www.agr.org.au/

In this episode, Mark joins us to explore the profound impact of the internet and technology on gambling behaviours, the addictive design of digital gambling apps, and the normalisation of online gambling in society.

We also look at the targeting of vulnerable demographics, the psychological effects of gambling, and the urgent need for reform and regulation to protect individuals and communities from the growing harms of online and digital gambling.

00:00 The Rise of Online Gambling and Its Impact

06:55 Addictive Design of Gambling Apps

11:48 Regulatory Challenges and Industry Influence

15:59 The Role of Data in Targeting Gamblers

23:38 The Future of Gambling Reform in Australia

25:33 The Pervasiveness of Gambling Among Youth

27:57 The Dangers of In-Play Betting

30:46 Normalisation of Gambling in Society

34:49 The Role of Technology in Gambling Addiction

39:03 The Need for Regulation and Accountability

43:33 Advocacy for Change and Hope for the Future

If you like what you hear, please follow the show, leave a review, or let us know what else to look into at ⁠⁠https://www.ruinedbytheinternet.com/⁠⁠

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Ruined by the Internet.
I'm Gareth King. Today we're asking has the
Internet ruined gambling? It promised to modernise an age
old activity bringing new convenience to a quick thrill.
Instead, it's delivered a predatory 24/7 addiction machine
that exploits our psychology with algorithms leading to what
many consider a serious public health crisis.
To help us understand what's really at stake, we're joined by

(00:22):
Mark Kempster, A gambling reformadvocate and member of
Australia's Alliance for Gambling Reforms Voices of Lived
Experience programme. Mark, thank you so much for
joining us and welcome to the show.
Not anytime. Glad to be on.
Before we get into it today, canyou just tell us a bit about the
work that you do and the journeythat's LED you to this point?

(00:45):
Yeah, certainly. So all my young adult life and
it's my 20s, I developed, I had a gambling addiction and it went
through at least 10 years of my life, probably a little bit more
when I, when I really think about it.
But yeah, so I, I battled that for a really long time, had huge
effect on my life and to this day still affects me to, to an
extent. But yeah, I managed to get get

(01:06):
past it. Now I'll be 6 years without a
bet tomorrow. So the time to come along, which
is kind of an anniversary for me.
So but yeah, now, now I work forwork alongside the alliance of
gambling reformers with the experience advocates.
So I really try to push for reforms and and trying to help
as many people as I can to not go down the path.

(01:28):
So I did and try and make it safer for people to to enjoy a
bit without developing an an addiction.
Yeah, brilliant. I mean, look, I'm sure everybody
that's been awake for the last decade or so, it's just seeing
how much gambling and normalisation of it has
permeated everything. We're gonna talk about how all
of that's happened today, but weare also going to be talking

(01:51):
about how the Internet and tech has transformed gambling to to
the beast that it is today. Looking back, what has surprised
you the most at how the impact of the Internet and technology
has played out in the gambling space so far?
Oh it changed my life. Like I was been from someone who
enjoyed a bet on a weekend afterI played footy when you had to

(02:11):
physically go and have a bet at the pub or at the local TAB to
to someone who without the Internet wouldn't have been able
to do like would have probably still been OK doing that for
most of the time. But once we developed sports bet
apps and and gambling apps in Australia, it's had a huge
effect on the way we gamble in Australia.
It's had a huge effect on the mental health of people in

(02:32):
Australia and it's had a huge effect on communities in general
with the amount of other things that come out of addictions that
have been caused by our move to to gamble online and have it in
our pockets every day of the week.
It is an issue that we have beenhearing about.
It's feels like forever within Australia.
I can't even recall how long I've been hearing stories of

(02:52):
people that would get their pay and just like put it straight
into the pokies. And we've known that they've
been this crazy problem and it feels like there's constantly
talk of some kind of reform and,and it never happens.
And we know that pokies provide so much revenue to the venues
that they're in, those you have to actually go and physically
enter the space to sit down and do it.

(03:13):
Now, as as we all know through the rise of smartphones and the
and the Internet like this access that now we have is
constantly in your pocket 24/7. And we all know people react the
way they react to their phone. They're constantly checking it,
constantly get a notification, see what's going on if if
someone's a heroin addict, like the worst thing in the world,

(03:35):
people see as the dealer trying to push heroin on a heroin
addict. But it feels like gambling.
It's that is so normal and there's so many platforms out
there, like I'm losing count of how many I see popping up.
You can't turn on the TV withoutseeing marketing and advertising
for gaming, let alone any kind of sporting event, which feels
like it's just become so ingrained within the experience

(03:59):
of sport itself. But when it does come to those
phone based gambling apps, can you explain to us how the design
of those makes them just so addictive for users?
Well. They're, they're designed to, to
keep you betting as long as possible.
And, and I know for a fact that the, the companies use
psychologists to make sure that you are in the app as long as
possible, like where they don't tell you how there's no time.

(04:22):
You can't see the time on the apps.
So I don't know how long we've been in there.
Like with the pokie machine theyhave, they make it very easy to
deposit money, but make it very hard to withdraw money on the
apps. They give you bonus bets, They
give you inducements to continueto bet for as long as possible.
And they always ask you the questions like, what can we do
to help help you with your betting?
They want to make it a community.
They want to have this huge bet with mates idea that, which is

(04:44):
really a toxic thing that to putout into the world that you'll
enjoy your activity or your sport or whatever you're
watching more if you're betting on it with your mates.
So they they they make it, they're trying to make the
community of people to normaliseit across Australia and they've
done a really good job with it. You said like what we see it
everywhere. We we can't get away from it.
I feel like I probably noticed it more than the normal person
in Australia. But even you saying that you

(05:05):
notice so much Gareth. It's it's just that like if that
that they have intrinsically tried to link betting with sport
or betting with anything really.Like you can bet on Master Chef,
you can bet on the stocks are going to go up and down.
You can bet on interest rates going up and down things along
these lines. So they've made it part of
everyday life and trying to normalise it and make their
their apps is easy to use and it's as easy as possible to try

(05:26):
and keep you there longer. Is is their whole goal with what
they're trying to do at the moment?
Yeah, look, and and that's, that's wholly unsurprising,
especially as we know that the way that all these social media
apps, whatever are built for that to get people in and use
them as long as possible. I think for me, the distinction
between say, I don't know, someone that claims to be just

(05:47):
addicted to TikTok, you know what I mean?
Like they're they're wasting time consuming whatever videos
they're in, content they're looking at.
But it doesn't have that financial implication, which to
me is the really insidious thingabout the way that these
gambling apps have developed. You know, that's interesting to
hear as well. They make it really difficult to
take the money out. And it makes me think back to,

(06:07):
you know, those shady films you've watched, like Vegas
casinos, you know what I mean? Like someone wins big and rather
than letting you cash out the computer room and all of this
other stuff. So hopefully exactly.
Yeah, win it back. But I think that if if someone
does have that addiction, whether it's an addiction or
just a compulsion to be on the phone just in general, and then

(06:27):
that opportunity is there. It's just frictionless.
Just so easy for them to just keep going and going and going.
Obviously that type of personality has always been
there. Do you think that it's a case
that this online and and app based betting targets those
people simply because the the barriers to reaching them are
largely removed? Or do you think that these apps

(06:48):
are potentially creating more ofthose people simply by the
nature of the way that we interact with our phones and
technology in general? So they use that kind of side
door to to bring. In the, I think, yeah, I, I
think it's, it's creating more of them.
I think there's always, as you said, there's always been people
with personalities like that. But I think the way they have

(07:10):
set the industry up now and the way they deliberately target
specific demographics of people who will.
But basically their whole, theirwhole goal is to try and target
8 into 34 year olds in the community, whether it's a lot,
mainly males, but they do targetfemales as well these days with
it because they're, they're targeting people whose brains
are still developing at the time.
And they, they, they want to intrinsically link gambling with

(07:33):
community basically, and, and, and make it look like they're
the good guys and they're just there to offer you some, some,
some good times with your mates.So I think it's creating more
people like that with the way they've set things up and in
particular with, with inducement, say offer like the
bonus bets and, and deposit matches and, or the, the
thousands of things that I've seen now that other people have
shown me now I'm helping people recover.

(07:55):
Like it's actually quite criminal some of the stuff these
guys are offering to try and take your betting longer.
It's it's really nasty stuff theway they kind of hook you onto
the loop with it. Yeah, like as you said this,
there was definitely some of it to start with, but yeah, it it's
getting out of hand at the moment.
Yeah, look, that's again completely unsurprising.

(08:16):
At the end of the day, it is a business trying to extract as
much money as it can out of people.
Except this time it's it's feelsjust incredibly predatory.
But what are some of those tactics that you just alluded to
that the platforms kind of whether they use it to target
new users, build a relationship with current users, or even
just, you know, maintain that user engagement.

(08:38):
You said a couple of things there about offering different
sorts of bets or maybe special access or something.
Like what? What are some of the examples
that they do? Oh, look, they, they offer
tickets to to football matches, they offer tickets to the grand
finals, to the Australian Open, to the State of Origin, to the
Spring carnival in RKS that theyhave specific VIP customer

(08:59):
relations, people who pretend tobe your friends, basically who
will call you and they will they'll chat to you and ask you,
hey, what are you going to be ontoday?
Yeah. And I liked it that top of it
too. And they, they ask you how your
your family's going and they askyou like how your dog's going,
things along these lines, like they want to pretend to be your
friend. And this really insidious
behaviour of trying to build a relationship with someone when

(09:19):
all these VIP, the VIP customer relations people all work on
Commission as well. So they're like, I can have
someone there trying to get you to bet more, not really care
about how much you are betting because they're going to make
more money off you if you do a bit more.
That type of relationship is, isso toxic.
But we've built an industry in Australia where it's allowed

(09:40):
because we don't have enough regulation in place to stop it.
I had one person in particular Iworked with who was offered for
50% of his losses back if he kept betting with them every
Saturday. So because they want him to bet
more and more and more, but theywould offer him.
Yeah, the as long as you bet so much on a Saturday, we'll give
half of it back to you when bonus bets.
And you can bet the next day with that as well.
Like just things like that, to keep you in their circle, to

(10:02):
keep, to make you feel like you're such a special person
when the whole goal is to try and slicing as much money out of
your pocket as possible. Yeah, even even the way you've
explained it there as a bonus bit like, you know,
psychologically I can imagine it's like, oh, real.
Money like it's not real money. No, Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm
potentially only losing half as much.
It's OK. It's only half as bad.

(10:25):
And then like you said, it's noteven real money.
Like you'll just lose it again the next day.
So it's just like, you know, psychologically it makes so much
sense for them to offer it like that rather than just kind of a
cash back. But it just seems again, you're
there the next day and you mightbe like, I again, I don't know
what, what kind of amounts that this stuff represents.
But let's say you've got now 500bucks left the next day, you're

(10:47):
like, oh, well, I didn't lose that 500 yesterday.
You'll potentially lose that andmore the next day.
And, and you, you mentioned something a couple of minutes
ago as well around the target, Iguess the target audience or
group priority being those 18 to34 year olds.
When I've been looking into thisas well, looking at some of the,
the findings, it's actually quite shocking to me the stats,

(11:10):
especially around that 18 to 34 year old age group.
It was in the the AMU report, I think it was that I found it
says that while, you know, for regular online gambling, 68% of
of users are considered at risk.But in that age group that you
mentioned 18 to 34, that jumps to 82%.

(11:31):
Now I'm assuming that that's because you said that the brain
is, is is not as developed to that kind of impulse control
stuff. But we're into like a A+
territory if this was a a SchoolReport arcing as to how
dangerous this is for 18 to 34 year old.
You mentioned, you know, the regulations just kind of can't
or won't do anything about it. Like how is this happening for

(11:53):
so long? I can, I've got a lot of
thoughts on that, but I probablycan't say a lot of because so
don't start swearing on your podcast.
But like it's, but the amount ofLAX regulation that is in place
in this country is due to a few things.
Like we have a government that'sbeholden to the industry and
it's being proven now really that they don't want to do

(12:15):
anything about it because it's an easy tax revenue for them to
bring in. Unfortunately, we have the Labor
Party in Australia, federal levels, who are the only Western
civilised democracy party who are in poking machines and make
revenue money off them. So like we have a really a
really strong sporting industry in Australia that have a lot of

(12:36):
power with the AFL and the NRL who wield their power behind the
scenes on an incredibly large basis.
They the amount of times that I've tried to speak with people
in thamber and can't get meetings with people to try and
talk about regulations and the damage it's doing to people.
Because the AFL, NRL having meetings with people and they're
trying to push their agendas at their end.
Because I don't want to lose thegambling advertising revenue

(12:58):
like we that there are so many offshoots of the reason why and
we have quasi national regulatorin the NT who all our gambling
companies to Australia will 95% of them are regulated and
licenced out of the NT because of the tax offsets they get up
there and we'd have an industry up there which acts with no
regulation at all up we the fourCorners report that was out two

(13:20):
weeks ago that Steve can I get on the ABC, which is fantastic
just really showed that up that they have the national NT Racing
Commission don't even have any full time staff and they're
supposed to be the national regulator of a $50 billion
industry in Australia. And we wonder why leaving their
companies keep popping up and doing whatever they want to do
at the moment because they know they could go and move their
bases up there and and act like Cowboys pretty much with no type

(13:42):
of punishments. They get absolute lettuce leaf
punishments like on the wrist type of stuff when they do do
something wrong. So there's five things for you.
There's probably a lot more of it as well, but like it's
there's so many offshoots of it that we have problems with in
this country. That is crazy.
I didn't know that about the NT.And to hear there, as you said,
it's a $50 billion industry withno full time staffing in the

(14:05):
regulation body. Like I'm kind of chuckling about
it now when you're laughing. UK, sorry yeah yeah, like the
the UK have 500 full time staff for their gambling industry and
we have none. We have what's?
The size of the UK. We work gambling industry
compared to ours. On a actual monetary stance,
it's bigger, but we buy like noteven close per capita, the
biggest gambling industry and the biggest losses for any

(14:27):
country in the world per capita with no one even comes close to
the amount of money we lose in Australia on gambling.
So to have A, to have a nationalregulator that can't even have
full time staff that's based in the back office in the Northern
Territory, it just beggars my life.
And so is, is that national regulator an an arm of the
government like, or is it an independent thing like how, how

(14:49):
does that relationship work? It's an arm of the NT
government, so they are, they are in charge of it.
They've never been officially given the title of a national
regulator, but given that the amount of gambling companies
that are based in the NT like toinsist that basically about 95%
of all the companies in Australia are based, have put
their operations in because of the tax offsets.
Like, yeah, they are pretty muchthe national regulator at the

(15:11):
moment. In that sense for a whole
industry, we we don't have a national regulator.
The federal government's never put anything in place to have a
national regulator in place. It's one of the key
recommendations of Peter Murphy's report that
unfortunately he's still sittingon the government's desk at the
moment. And outside of the ban of
gambling advertising, she wantedto to introduce that was the
second main point of it, that wecan't have an industry that's

(15:34):
worth $50 billion that doesn't have any independent oversight
to it. That just seems insane to me.
That's the first time I'd, I'd. Yeah, it's ridiculous.
I heard that's that and and you know, I'm not even in that world
and that just seems crazy. What what do you think the
stalling and the delay is all about?
I mean, obviously you said there's vested interest, but I
mean, I can just imagine that anindustry that size the the lobby

(15:56):
is just so powerful. And as you said, if they're the
ones getting the access, then what hope do normal people
having problems with these have?But has there been any positive
movement with regulation as moreand more information and
statistics and data comes out about, you know, the damage that
these gambling apps are doing? Not, not really.

(16:16):
The last few years the, the maintwo things like that, the, the
federal government introduced this bet stop, which has been
OK, like so bet stop is a national self exclusion
register, which we didn't have up until two years ago.
So you're actually allowed to, you can put your name in on
that. It's supposed to block companies
from contacting you and, and letting you sign up to any type

(16:38):
of gambling company in Australia.
Unfortunately, there's still plenty of cases where companies
are getting around the bet stop laws.
There's just one this week whichDavid Poker brought up and sent
it estimates around a company inQueensland who they said, oh,
they sent a letter out through all their self excluded
customers and said we know you're self excluded.
We just want to let you know that we're here if you ever want

(17:00):
to do punt again, you can come back with a new account to us.
So they're not actually offeringgambling services that the how
hard that is for someone like myself to get an email like
that. Even if you are self excluded,
it makes you question what you're doing.
It possibly makes you go in bed again because you've got so many
doubts in your head. I've got so many people that
I've helped over the last six years who have fallen back into

(17:22):
their addictions because of the contact they get from companies
when they shouldn't have. It is ridiculous.
There is so many instances of these sort of cases that the,
the, the national requires a national regulator in the NT
have dealt with where they get 10,012 thousand dollar fines.
When I know for a fact some people have taken their lives
because of the, the contact they've had.

(17:42):
And they feel like they're, they're never going to be able
to get away from it. They've done all the right
things that they can't put themselves on in more self
exclusion registers. And they're still getting phone
calls every week or they're getting emails every second week
telling them to bed again. It's like, it is so bad.
Like I Yeah. Yeah.
How do, how do they get around? Like we know that companies can
buy email lists and databases. Is it simply a case of that or

(18:05):
is it they don't care? As you said, the slap on the
wrist is just so miniscule compared to what's potentially
theirs. Yeah, I think that's the case.
Like I even, I, I still get themto this day.
I got 120 minutes before I come on the chat with you.
Yeah, if I got an email, an email from a company offering me
horse tipping services for the spring carnival, like I think 1,
because I had a history of gambling heavily and I had a

(18:26):
history of going to all these different gambling websites in
Australia. Your email gets out there as we
know how the Internet works, that the email list gets sold
off to different companies. And there's also a lot of people
in the gambit industry who don'treally care about the penalties
that there is. So they, they will go from one
company to another, type the books with them from one
company, start up a new company and then they know they'll only

(18:47):
get a slap on the wrist if they do it the first time.
They know they get a slap on thewrist.
They do it the second time. So they're not that they're not
really scared about doing this to people.
And the, the money they make offpeople is I said, like I said,
they they can get a $10,000 fine, but they can make that
money back in half an hour off someone of one person, let alone
the 500 and 400 other people to send it to.
So that they don't, but that there's no, there's no nothing

(19:08):
in place to stop. I'm really doing that.
At the moment, so that just so I'm clear, that $10,000 fine is
at once not times 500. No, just once.
Yeah. So like there was a case with
sports bet last year. This is a bigger on the bigger
terms of things. They emailed 746 people I think
it was on spring carnival week and they blamed him an error of

(19:31):
it which I doubt that they they went to all their a lot of their
self exploited customers. A lot of those people complained
and they got fines, 50 odd $1000.
We even know that like the amount of money they could, they
would have probably made off those emails going out would
have been 10 times that the end of that week.
So the the the fines that they are just, they don't, they don't

(19:52):
put anyone off. So they know they make the money
back. Yeah, just that that we've just
just touched on there is is almost another side that the
Internet and tech is enabling, which is the selling off of
those mailing lists and and databases, you know, rather than
just these addictive apps and contact to people who are meant
to be on self exclusion. It seems like we.

(20:13):
With with enough money and access, you could mine almost
anything about anybody and then use that to target them, you
know, for this exact sort of stuff.
But beyond mailing lists that they shouldn't be using, what
are some of the other ways that these companies use through data
to to go after people now, whether they've got a history of

(20:33):
gambling or is do they go after people that don't but they
realise they might be susceptible to it?
I think, I think they target anyone who's got a some type of
inkling that they might like sport, they might like a popular
culture event that's going to have a market up.
So I know and I've and like I'vespent days trying to go through
my Instagram or what, what Snapchat or whatever I'm on and

(20:54):
trying to change my ad preferences to stop getting
gambling edge, which I'll give it up on now.
I, I'm, I just, I have to just put up with it now, which is
horrible, but I can't get away from it.
But I know there's like when I tried to block one of the
gambling ads, I went right through the whole process, the
app references and it was because they said you were
getting this ad because you looked up football, you looked
up men's clothing and you lookedup music so that it wasn't even

(21:16):
to do. And I, I love my music.
I I think I'm quite a fashionable person.
I'd like to dress up like I'm looking at things like that all
the time. So like it's to to have those
like that type of thing in placefor the morning data just for
that, because you might have theoff chance that, oh, there's a
football game this weekend. We're going to send it out to
everyone who saw watched a football video last week.
Doesn't matter if you like it ornot or Australian idols.

(21:39):
That's an I'll reference. But you know, I just got a a
final on this weekend. But these people watch, watch
the videos for that. So we'll send them off the the
idea that your betting market onthis this weekend you can bet on
and try and get get you get you that way.
So they're not just targeting people who like horse racing or
or poking machines, They're targeting any amount of that
demographic who might have an inkling they might want to bet
on something. And and that is also one of the,

(22:01):
I guess the polar opposites of this issue.
Like I think everybody immediately can associate
betting with sport. Now it's it's just kind of hand
in hand. You put on any sport on TV or
even you go to the event, like everything is just bet, bet,
bet. I've used these apps a couple of
times. I've put on a few bets in my
life. I'm hopeless.
I never win. But, you know, I'm lucky enough

(22:23):
that I kind of just give myself that little bit of money and go,
OK, if, if I win, cool. If I don't, you know, my, my
thing is I play Powerball, you know, every now and again just
to, because I dream, yeah, if I win.
But that, that doesn't really send me anything.
I play. And they're like, hey, tonight's
jackpot might be, I don't know, 50 million.
And I'll be like, OK, whatever. And I think you're playing that

(22:44):
and you know, you're not going to win.
Someone obviously wins, but you're exactly like to, but with
the sports betting and you know,putting on Maltese and things
like that. I've known people who've had an
issue with gambling through online gambling in the past and
and phones. I can see from speaking to them
that there is almost a little bit of skill when they talk

(23:04):
about and that feels like you'relike this really smart person
that actually knows stuff. So it's not pure luck.
There's actually some skill there and I could see that
winning something like that could I guess verify and confirm
that you are a bit more intelligent.
But recently it feels like no matter who you speak to, whether

(23:25):
it's them directly or they'll know of someone who knows
someone that's had a problem with with these platforms.
How are we going with trying to get a handle on this stuff?
Or do you think that it's kind of almost a bit of an
unstoppable train at this point that is just steam rolling over
everything due to influence and I guess money itself?
We're going OK, like we are getting somewhere.

(23:47):
Like I think the noise that the alliance where our workers are
making, people like David Perry Cock and Kate Cheney and and
Monique Ryan in Parliament are making a lot of noise about her,
especially David Perry Cock has been utterly fantastic in the
last World 18 months. And at all.
We have some really good journalists in Australia who are
reporting on it quite regularly,some really good people at the

(24:08):
Guardian and and Crocky, Danny and Crocky and Josh and Henry
the Guardian who do a little work on it.
So what we, we are, there is a groundswell of it.
We, we know there is, we do a lot of surveying at the alliance
that shows like the more than 3/4 of Australia, Montgomery
that's banned. It's, it's, it's like nobody
likes them. Nobody, nobody wants to see when
they're watching sport. Nobody wants to explain to their

(24:30):
kid what a multi is when they'resix or seven years old just
because you're watching 40 with your dad on the couch on a
Saturday. Like we, we, we're the first
generation of, of Australians who have to explain to our kids
what gambling is and what a multi is and why it's a good
thing or why it's a bad thing. Like nothing's going to happen
until we get some actual action on the Peter Murphy's inquiry

(24:51):
and the report she put down. That is the absolute catalyst
for change. And the government know that
that is. And they're trying to delay it
as much as possible because of the best interest we've talked
about. I think we'll get somewhere.
It's just extremely slow going, but there's too much grounds for
all of support to have it had, especially advertising removed.
And we're not talking about thisstuff.
I don't ever want to come acrosslike I'm being a prohibitionist

(25:13):
or other. There is a place for gambling in
Australia. I, I don't want to being
gambling and it's not about being gambling and it's not
about being the people who enjoyit.
And there's a lot of people who go to the pub on this Saturday
with their mates or sit on the couch at home and can enjoy,
enjoy it safely basically. So it's not about that.
It's about making it safer. And at the moment it's the same
as the cigarettes were in the 70s and 80s.
It's advertised to a point whereit's not safe and we need to

(25:35):
actually do something about it before we get to a point where
we lose a whole generation of people to gambling.
Totally agree. I think that outright
prohibition probably isn't the right right way to go about it,
but I think for me the issue is just the pervasiveness of it.
And I'm sure you can download every single app onto your phone
and, and have all of those things reaching out to you.

(25:56):
Hey, do you want to put a bit onhere, a bit on here?
You know, I was reading something recently about the
number of of teenagers not even 18 years old gambling on on the
way to school, which seems like I hear it is at the state 30% of
12 to 17 year olds. There's more there's more people
there's more people under 18 in Australia betting then there is
actually actually playing basketball at that age in

(26:18):
Australia playing soccer at thatage in Australia.
So we're bringing up a generation of gambling addicts
at the moment is horrible and I and I see it like I I help out
at at all skip with my son sometimes when he goes down
there and there's kids down there seminar 8 years old and
we're talking about Collingwood are $1.80 favourites on the
weekend to their dads not knowing.
But Oh my God, the gambling companies have done so well with

(26:41):
their advertising that this is the way they see sport and they
they go onto the app and they see the odds are right there
before they see the score like it's they can't get away from
it. And this is the why it is so
dangerous and why the Internet has played such a big role in
this because our younger generations live on the Internet
now and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing or not,
they see it so much. We have never been at a point in

(27:02):
this country where it's been so pervasive and faces disease.
That that's just shocking, just hearing you say that you've got
kids like under 10 talking aboutthe odds of a win for a team.
I know when I was that age, I knew of gambling as this kind of
abstract concept, but it's like I, I didn't know what odds were.
I knew you went to a casino and you can win money.

(27:23):
That's, that's the extent of it.But I'm sure that that's kind of
a normal amount of information. But yeah, as you said, kids that
young through access to the Internet and technology and
whether it's their own devices or, you know, on their parents,
just kind of seeing guest bedding is what you do in any
sporting event as so normal. It just feels like we're really,

(27:45):
really going to have a huge, even bigger problem coming down
the pipeline. But you know, that stat you said
as well about more, more of these teens.
Again, I'm laughing. I just I'm just in awe of how
awful is one of these teens are gambling.
But. God, look, one of the other
things that you've you've kind of got me thinking about now was

(28:07):
in play betting. That to me just seems so crazy
that you are even more caught upin the moment that you could
just be smashing buttons becauseyou're so emotionally invested.
You know, like your team might be losing.
You're desperate for a goal, perhaps for your team to win,
but now you you're financially invested in that goal.
Why would you say that that in play betting itself has become

(28:30):
so massive and what are the outcomes that are happening
because of it? I think you're right in what
you're saying that it's the, it's the, the emotional state
you're in when you're watching something and you have an
investment in it. So I, I think it's become so
popular because you can get it on so quickly.
You can, you can kind of watch the trends of a game, But you
know, I had a lot of issues withthat when I was gambling is I, I

(28:52):
probably thought I knew sport better than what other people
did and I thought I'd had an advantage in that way.
I didn't like it. It was never that, never the
case, but the way my brain worked at the time with the
dopamine stacks that my brain was chasing and that it just
turned me into a, a zombie with a mush for a brain really when I
was jamming. So the way it's set up, you can
just get a bet on within 20 seconds and you, you don't even
know what you're doing half the time because of what you're

(29:14):
watching and you think you're smarter than someone else.
So it plays on the, the urge mechanism in your body when you
have an urge to do something. And I've learned this from, from
my recovery now and, and the wayI used to bet, it takes a good
10 minutes for an urge to go away.
So to have in play access to betting and have people allowed
who can have it in their pockets, you can bet on it to
win, you bet on something to lose.

(29:36):
You bet on the goals, you bet onthe tackle, you bet on whatever
it is implied when you have the urge to do that unless you have
you can have change your brain properly to not give in to that
urge. You can lose money so quickly
and that's why it's so dangerous.
You can put on 10 bets in that in the amount of time lose $1000
or something. You know before you even your
brain has really kind of even registered what you are doing in

(29:57):
that state. But when you are betting and
you're in an emotional state or you with your mate and they're
all doing it, or you're drinkingalcohol or you're on something
else at the time and you've got an urge to go and do something,
then you're not going to be ableto control that at all.
And and the gamer companies really play on that.
That's why in play betting has become so popular, especially
with the way you can also bet onthings to lose, like in what

(30:18):
with horse riding, be on something to lose halfway around
the tracking. I don't have to even bet for the
race starts. It's it's, it's crazy the amount
of things you can bet on in playing air.
Yeah. And, and it seems to me that
that that is something that can really only be facilitated if
you've got the access to doing it right in the palm of your
hand at any time. So you don't have to travel and
go and find the bookie or, I don't know, go to the the tab or

(30:40):
any of that to do it. Like it really does rely on on
that technology being on your person all the time.
But I think one of the other things that I'm trying to to
understand, like the real picture around is how much of
this normalisation of gambling being a part of every event.
Like if you if you can bet on everything, then you can bet on

(31:01):
nothing. You know what I mean?
It's just kind of become part ofthe experience.
Do you think that that normalisation is just straight
up making it harder for us as, as an Australian society?
And I'm sure you know the same issues happen happening in other
countries. Is it just harder for us to
acknowledge the extent of the problem because it is so
normalised? I, I think it's, it's become so
normalised. I mean, we, we have grown up in

(31:23):
Australia with a love of betting.
I think like we, it, it's been in our nature, it's been in our
culture for a very, very long time to, to bet.
And up until the mid 2000s it was safer to do that like it
was, it was probably harder to get a bet on.
You had to physically, it was destination betting for a lot of
people. You had to physically go

(31:43):
somewhere to bet. And that's what it is around the
world. You don't, you see a lot of
countries around the world, especially America up until
recently, places in Europe whereyou don't have access to
somebody again, unless it's actually at a cassette, you
know, she's got to get there. So I, I think we've been brought
up in, in cultures like that in Australia.
And that's what's kind of exasperated when it did blow up
with the internets and and the gambling apps it it took us to

(32:06):
this other place where it was just so easy to do.
It's just so crazy to me that the worst thing a player can do
is bet on the matches. But you can have platforms
funding the leagues behind the matches, you know, the venues.
So maybe it's potentially teams as well.
Like it seems like just the conflict of interest is just so

(32:26):
blatant. It's it just seems a little bit
too on the nose that you couldn't make it up.
But we don't have to because it's it's just like that.
Is this exclusive in Australian?Yeah, they've done really well
to intrinsically link a lot. We, we, we have the, the big
sporting codes in Australia makeso much money off gambling.
So they're never, ever going to want to stop what's in place now

(32:50):
and then this is going to be thereally hard thing to try and
make any change with it is that the fact that they make like, I
think $230 million a year roughly across all the companies
in Australia, sporting codes in Australia make off gambling
revenue. So like it's going to, it's
going to be something that's very hard to replace.
And it's, and it's the, it's theother factors as well.
And what they argue is they're going to lose all their

(33:11):
advertising revenue they make offered as well.
So they can't sell their rights for as much because, you know,
the companies won't have the, they can't advertise if we take
the laws away from. So why it is why they, the
sporting codes and the lobbies have so much power because there
is so much money behind it. And and they, they, they, they
use scare tactics around like, oh, we're going to take away
community football whether we had of funded if we can't have

(33:33):
gambling advertised. And it was the same scare tactic
that the cigarette industry usedin the 70s and 80s that this guy
was going to fall in when we knew never did.
Yeah, look, the cigarette one isis so interesting.
I can remember seeing, you know,like these photos of cricketers,
you know, like Shane Warne having a ciggy.
Like what's that golf guy John Daly having a ciggy?
And it's like everybody smoked and cigarette advertising daily

(33:55):
where and now it's like we're inthe year 2025.
There's probably not a human alive that doesn't know how bad
cigarettes are. But you know, if you, if you're
really into the darts, like you're just going to keep
smoking darts. And I'm sure it's the same with
with all of this stuff. One thing I did want to want to
speak to you about was with these apps being in your pocket,

(34:16):
The other thing that's always inyour pocket is obviously access
to your bank. Now, Once Upon a time, you would
have to go to the ATM, get cash out.
You could have your daily limit put it into the pokies or onto
the casino table, whatever it is.
But now you've got banking apps that you can transfer thousands
of dollars everyday. And I'm I'm sure you can change
that to make it less, but they're in the same place as the

(34:39):
betting app. So if you lose, you can get more
straight away. Like again, this is just another
facilitation of technology that allows this to be so much worse.
What role do you think that banking and even payment systems
have to play in this? And do they play a role?
Play future role like I again, when I've gone through my

(35:00):
recovery now and kind of learnt why I probably fell into my
gambling as much as I did is because of the ease of access I
had to money as well at the timewith it, with the with banking
apps on my phone. And when I started to recover,
I, I had to give part of my recovery plan was to give my
access to my bank accounts over to my partner who, who looks
after money to this day, becauseI was addicted to gambling.

(35:22):
But I was, I was addicted to thehaving the money and, and using
the money as well, I suppose. And thinking there was my money,
I could do it whatever I want with it.
And that became really again, intrinsically linked between the
two of them. That I, that I, if I had extra
money and I had access to the money, then I would, I would
gamble it as no, no different tosomeone who is addicted to, to
alcohol. If I had wine in the fridge or
beer in the fridge, it didn't matter how many other great

(35:45):
mechanisms you put in place around it.
If it was there and had access to it, you're probably going to
drink it. And that's just the way I had
explained work. So that there is a huge
correlation between it. I bet lot on credit cards as
well. And that, that is what I didn't
mention before is I have banned,well, they are in the process of
banning credit card usage on, ongambling ads, But that wasn't
the case up until 12 months ago.You could gamble on your credit

(36:07):
card as much as you wanted to. And that was something that I
struggled with. Like I would pay a credit card
off and then use that credit card to get to gamble again with
basically. So I was just, you know, in a
cycle of it, then I would get another credit card or something
along those lines. So we ended up with a couple of
credit cards just solely that I used to gamble with never told
anyone about it. So, and having to lie about that
type of stuff and lying about your money and where your money

(36:28):
in your bank was with this just major mental health, 10 times
worse as well when you're tryingto deal with something like an
addiction. So that they, they have.
And yeah, like it, it's there's so many offshoots of that you
could talk about with it. And again, the way it's how easy
it is to link your bedding account to your, to your debit
card to your savings account, depositing this straight away.

(36:50):
And, but like they don't, they never ask you about your
deposits. I always ask you about your
withdrawals, how much you want to take out and whether you want
to do this. And, and you can still, and you
can cancel withdrawal. You can't cancel a deposit.
Once it's in there they go. No, you deposit it.
You need to bet it now before you get this out.
Like many times I'd win money ona Saturday and maybe win daily
fairly well on a Saturday and then withdraw it.

(37:11):
And they would leave the withdrawal there for a day or
two days before they process it.Or even on a Tuesday or
Wednesday, leave it there and give you an option to cancel
your withdrawal. But I would never do that with
with my deposit into your account.
So the stream of money you have going into an app just because
it's linked to your bank accountis.
Yeah. Again, it's had a huge effect on
the way people gamble. That, that again makes total

(37:31):
sense that they they'd like to take your money, but they don't
give it back in any form. But you said something about
kind of hiding what was going on.
And I guess that leads me to another thought that the
Internet and technology enables in that sense is you don't need
to interact socially with anybody to be doing these
things. So like, it's a lot easier for

(37:52):
people to potentially hide theirproblem or or their shame
through the the the hiding that can be done in an online space.
But does that play a part in people not seeking help if they
really should? Oh for sure, like I I felt
ashamed for 10 years. I felt like I was just a shit
person. I just felt lost and alone
because you were you can sit in your bedroom and you can lose.

(38:15):
I can sit on the I was sitting on the couch next to my partner
bedding. She didn't know what I was doing
and I was sitting there losing their money and, and having and
then trying to hide that the whole time and trying to lie
about it and, and just, yeah, itit, it almost ruined me.
And I said to the point where I was just an utterly bright in
person by the end of it. And then I'd go online and just

(38:36):
getting stupid arguments and tell people they're idiots
online about things I'd never knew about because I always
wanted to make people feel as bad as I was feeling in myself.
And it's, it's not like an any other addiction where you can
physically see a change in someone like with alcohol and
with any type of drug. We see that physical change in
some way. It's so easy to hide it inside

(38:57):
here with a gambling addiction and I think there's still that
stigma around that the people don't really see it sometimes as
a normal, as an addiction like and drug or alcohol 1 when it
works exactly the same way and it it ruins your life in exactly
the same way. No, that's, that's a great point
there. And I think that that comes back
to what I can imagine is just the normalisation of it.
And I I just can't understand how we're all so blase about it.

(39:21):
We know it's in an online industry and we know that the
the online space is completely borderless.
Like is it even possible for Australia to regulate the online
gambling space? We say bettors and gamblers
having access to the the world. How does that work?
I, I think having something better than having nothing I
like, I think that's the point with it all.

(39:41):
Like at the moment we don't haveanything to help regulate it at
all. So I think a national regulator
would at least an, an independent national regulator
would at least make the, the companies more accountable for
what they're doing to people in the way they are targeting
people and things along those lines and actually have
penalties in place that meant something to actually stop.
These companies always have themthinking twice about the way

(40:02):
they're operating. So I, I think it'll work in that
sense. It's, it's never going to be a
perfect world. Like we're never going to have a
perfect system for it. There's always going to be
companies popping up. And we've seen the way the
internet's evolved in the last 20 years, in 20 years time, who
knows what that what shape that's going to take in terms of
gambling on the online. But yeah, there's never going to
be an absolute Nirvana with it all other side.

(40:23):
But no, we just. We just.
To take it more seriously, it's got to be taken more seriously.
We've got to have better things in place we're doing now.
And yeah, we, we just can't continue to, to have it in
children and young adults and young men, young women's faces
as much as we do now and and notdo anything about it.
With all of that in mind, like we look at the entire current
digitised gambling and betting landscape that we've been

(40:45):
talking about, One of the thingsthat there's obviously a little
bit of an effort being made withthose kind of warnings that they
whack on at the end of the adverts and things like that.
Obviously they're pushing this concept of responsible gambling.
Are they a genuine effort or is it just doing enough to get the
what regulators theories off offtheir case?

(41:05):
They, I, I think they're insanely stupid.
They, they don't work that they're being proven not to
work. They are they're a slap in the
fat. Anybody who's got a problem with
gambling knows that they should be rebending responsibly.
There's no point putting those things on at the end of an ad.
Like people who don't have a problem see those those catch
phrase at the end and think they're insanely stupid as well.

(41:26):
Like I don't have a problem. Why do I need a bit response
with it? But they don't work.
They've been told them to, to put them in place by the federal
government who because they wantto be saying to be doing
something when it's like, I can't tell you how angry it
makes me just just see them. People say they're saying I'll
bet responsibly when they, they just had a whole ad that's been
on 30 sectors beforehand about how not to bet responsibly.

(41:48):
And at the end of it and then trying to make someone feel bad
about it just at the end of it. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Just if we, if we have to have something at the end of an ad
telling to bet responsibly, it'sbecause the gambling company,
the, the betting they're just showing it isn't responsible in
the way they're showing it, especially with things like
multis and raisons. I know we mentioned multis
before. Like multis are advertised by
gambling companies because they make so much profit on it,

(42:10):
because nearly everyone who putsthe multi on will lose their
multi. Like multis are the hardest
things that hit in the world. And that's the the exact reason
they advertise them so much because they make so much money
off it. So why why we allowed to
advertise? And if it's not responsible to
do so, will we allow cigarette advertising on TV?
If you put a bit, if you sort ofsmoke responsibly.
Yeah, exactly. On the end of it, we, we, we, we

(42:30):
know the damage it does. We know the damage gambling
does. But for this instance related on
TV and singer advertising, we took it off because we knew the
damage to it. So it doesn't make any sense at
all. No.
Do you think, do you think it's a case that we're still kind of
in the denial stage or all of that's well known and
established now and we're just dragging our feet a little bit?
I don't think we're in it. I think everybody knows the

(42:51):
damage it's doing. I, I, I genuinely think it's
that what happens behind the scenes in, in Denver that we
don't see, which is why we haven't got to a point where
anything's been done. As I mentioned again earlier,
we, the amount of surveys that we've done at the alliance that
showed that 3/4 of Australia don't want, they want regulation
in place and they want a safer industry and they want the ads
banned like this. The we're not in denial about

(43:11):
it. We know it's an issue.
We, we, we say it's an issue every day, but we have a tiny
percentage of Australians who lobby for it and, and they're
the ones being listened to and not everybody else.
People like myself who have to fight every day to try and get a
10 minute meeting with, with anyone who wants to listen to
us. But just because we don't have
the money to pay for the access,we don't get to tell our

(43:32):
stories. And yeah, like it's, it's just
that this small insular groupingcamera, we're just stopping
everything happening in Australia at the moment.
Yeah. And I think that that's that's
just the most tragic aspect of it.
You know when you boil it down there, it's cash for access, but
I don't think you could really call it that with any kind of
we'll call. It that now we've got that.
Yeah, OK. We'll call it that cash for

(43:53):
access. But just just on that then like
what, what kind of regulations do you hope can get through or
what do you think would really help to address this situation
and kind of help us turn a corner a little bit?
The the advertising has to go that that is the absolute number
one. It's been any time of inquiry
that's been done, and I'll keep mentioning that the Murphy

(44:13):
inquiry and there anyone who hasn't read that, it is worth
going to read, read the stories about the people who have been
harmed by this industry and thenread the recommendations that
Peter put out. And Peter did so much work.
She worked on this report up until she was on her deathbed.
She passed away from cancer a few weeks after this report came
down. She knew that how damaging this
industry was. So she worked so hard on this

(44:35):
report and it had bipartisan support across the parliament as
well. Like it wasn't just Labour
people what Peter was, it was Liberals and Greens and
Nationals and Independence are on this, on this inquiry.
So a ban of gambling advertisingstaggered across three years to
so it doesn't affect everyone atonce is the absolute number one
goal. And it would have helped people.
I can't tell you the amount of people that come to me and I get

(44:57):
dozens of people awakening me upon socials, telling me I've got
an issue. Mark, I don't know what to do.
Can you help me? I feel trapped.
I can't walk the dog without seeing ads on billboards.
I can't watch the news with my family.
I can't read the newspaper on the weekend and do the crossword
without seeing it. Yeah, we had like, we need to
remove that from society and that would make a huge
difference. The national regulator would
make a huge difference as well. And pulling back the amount of

(45:20):
inducements and the amount of things along those lines that
the companies can offer people to continue to bet.
We wouldn't allow people to walkdown the street and offer drugs
to people as a bonus. So because because they're a
good customer, they wouldn't will now cigarette companies to
go and offer cigarettes near school grounds to people because
their their parents were bettingwith an account as well.
Things on those lines like sorry, smoking with a smoking
account or something like that. So having something in place

(45:42):
that continually allows people to be have to bet longer and
what can that inducements do? They need to be removed as well.
So they're the three main thingsand they're all in the Murphy
report and sitting on the, on the government's desk at the
moment. But we are more than two years
now since that's been put down. And I know because I gave
evidence inquiries and I know how long it's been.
So it's, it's an, I think it's aquite a few easy things you can

(46:04):
put in place without it and it wouldn't kill the industry
either. So it would still be there, able
to go and enjoy it safely if those things were put in place.
Yeah, right. So beyond a bit more movement on
the Murphy report, what else gives you hope that some real
positive change will be or can be made into the future around
this issue? I think it's becoming there's

(46:26):
there's more people like Nate wanted to talk about and making
normalising talking about gammonaddictions in society.
I think it's becoming a bit easier to do.
It was really hard a few years ago when it was nobody really
wanted to talk about it. I couldn't get on anywhere to
talk about it. But like the last 12 to 18
months has been a grounds full of support.
So I think if you have an issue,if you have an issue with the

(46:46):
way it is, I think more people are actually going to the MPs,
local MPs and talking about it there.
People are removing gambling from from local sporting clubs
and trying to move away from those type of things where you
have partners clubs or you have pokies venge responsive like
football clubs. Things on little little things
like that have are really starting to happen more.
And we see that the alliance we we work a lot with local

(47:07):
communities around how they can move away from gambling in in
their communities and and and and have different avenues to
make money without having to rely on gambling revenues.
So there's, there's lots of little things like that and I
think, but the more and more that happens, it's just going to
make it the ground sword's goingto become bigger and bigger,
hopefully where, where governments can't ignore it
anymore the way they are and they, they'll hopefully have to

(47:29):
do something about it. So it, it's, it's little
incremental games. We, we, we do see across the
board, but unfortunately it probably will stay still take a
while. And I hope it just doesn't
really, like I said, ruin a generation of people because we,
we, we, we have to go a long wayaround.
So they're actually having a a nice straight highway to go down
with it all. No, absolutely.

(47:50):
And you, you just touched on something there I'd love for us
to, to finish on, which is obviously the positive work that
you're doing at the Alliance. So can you just tell us a little
bit about some of the things that the Alliance is doing in
case anybody hears this and theythey might be looking for for a
little bit of assistance? Yeah, so, so check it out with
the Alliance for Gambling reforming.
Top that into Google. It's the first thing that comes
up their website. We, we do a lot of work trying

(48:12):
to to lobby. We, we, we do a lot of work in
terms of trying to speak to people and, and getting them to
understand the damages that thisindustry does to people.
We have people like Tim Cottiello who's a national
treasure, who's our chief advocate, who the way he speaks
about it is really good to listen to.
We have plenty of interviews on there with him, but we have
petitions that are going on the website in terms if you want, if

(48:33):
you are feeling strongly about the gambling, have a device
inside of things that I am. We have petitions you can sign
which we will present to the Parliament.
We have about 37,000 signatures on there at the moment to show
there is this huge groundswell support to remove it.
If you are having issues with your gambling, we have links
there which you can read about the ways some people have got
pass the gambling. We have a Voices of live

(48:54):
experience programme, which on the part of where we have people
who want to advocate for change like I do, we would have gone
through gambling addictions. You can come and join some of
our sessions around that if you'd like and thank the people
like myself and plenty of other people who have been through
addiction and we work together and, and what we can do to
advocate for change. And there's lots of other
articles and things along there's to try and open up chats

(49:16):
with your own family and your own friendship groups about
gambling. And especially if you're worried
about young people in your family and our gambling.
I mean, there's plenty of stats and statistics on there to show
them the damage that you can do to yourself and the damage that
the industry does. So they can kind of have at
least a better idea of what's going on and and why they should
probably think again about gambling at a young age as well.
So it's probably other things I want for this evening at the

(49:38):
home in this world, but there's there's.
No, look, thanks so much for your your time today, Mark.
Obviously sharing your experience and your knowledge
around what is a very serious issue completely exacerbated by
the Internet and and technology.What have you got coming up and
where can people more importantly follow what you're
up to? Yep.

(49:59):
So Mark Kempstead, if you just put my name into any of the any
of your social media platforms, I'm on there and I always leave
my channels open. So if you want to reach out and
have a chat to me about if you're, if you are struggling
with a gambling addiction or you, so you've got someone in
your life struggling, feel free to reach out and I'll try and
help out. I'll send you in the right
directions. And I've got a few other
possible projects coming out in,in the next few weeks on in

(50:20):
radio and TV. So you're probably, yeah, if you
type my name into, to Google as well, you'll see that I can't
100% talk about that at the moment, but there's a few things
coming up in the next few weeks as well.
But yeah, look, I, I, I just, I will try and do as much advocacy
work as I possibly can and, and try and keep this, this issue at
the forefront of people's minds,especially in our federal
government at the moment. Awesome, Mark.

(50:41):
Thank you again so much. Now Anytime guys, appreciate it
mate. For more info on what we've
discussed today, check out the show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you cansubscribe to Ruined by the
Internet on your favourite podcast app and help spread the
word by sharing this episode or leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next time.