August 24, 2025 • 45 mins
It promised us unprecedented connection, but for many people the internet instead damaged the quality and authenticity of dating, by offering endless choice, a “shopping” mentality, and reduced emphasis on genuine, in-person connection.
To help us get to the heart of things, we’re joined by Elly Klein, a professional dating mentor, author, and Founder of Your Dating Bestie.
https://www.ellyklein.com/blog
00:00 The Impact of the Internet on Dating
06:05 Navigating Online Dating Pitfalls
11:56 The Numbers Game: Dating as a Funnel
18:03 Crafting the Perfect Dating Profile
24:00 The Role of Filters in Online Dating
29:55 Changing Perspectives on Dating Across Generations
35:48 Strategies for Successful Online Dating
41:47 Maintaining Positivity in the Dating Journey
Let us know what else you’d like us to look into, or just say hello at https://www.ruinedbytheinternet.com/
online dating, dating mentor, dating success, dating pitfalls, dating profile tips, dating strategies, dating culture, relationship advice, dating apps, dating mindset
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to ruined by the Internet.
I'm Gareth King. Today we're asking, has the
Internet ruined dating? It promised us unprecedented
connection, but for many people,the Internet instead damaged the
quality and authenticity of dating by offering endless
choice, a shopping mentality, and reduced emphasis on genuine,
in person connection. To help us get to the heart of
things, we're joined by Ellie Klein, a professional dating
(00:22):
mentor, author, and founder of Your Dating Bestie.
Ellie, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the
show. Thanks, Gareth.
Before we begin, can you tell usa bit about the work that you do
and your journey that led you tothis point?
I can. OK, well I call myself a
(00:42):
professional dating mentor. I mean the more common term is
dating coach, but I just don't like the word coach.
I kind of see myself more as a mentor.
So I have a business where I help women who want to find the
Mr. Right go from dating sucks to dating success and my
business is called your dating bestie 'cause I I take a unique
best friend approach to this. Yeah, interesting.
(01:05):
You know, dating sucks to to success.
It seems like that's a very prevalent need right now.
General vibe out there is is that you know, things aren't as
good as they could be and hopefully we can get to the
bottom of that today. But you've been evolved in the
world of dating and coaching in various ways for a while now.
Have you been surprised by just how huge online dating has
(01:26):
become over that time? Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's funny. I was sort of around from the
start because I, you know, I went to high school in the 90s
and, you know, I was dating in the late 90s and early 2000s and
I didn't start doing online dating until I was 27.
That was in 2005. And that was back in the day
(01:48):
where there were, it was no apps.
It was, it was dating websites. And people were still saying on
their dating profiles, like, I can't believe I'm doing this.
So, you know, it was, it was sort of still a little bit
taboo. And now it's probably gone so
far in the opposite direction that it's almost like people
have gone back to meeting offline.
(02:09):
Yeah. And I think that's, it's quite
an interesting point you've justraised there around the kind of
taboo or, you know, this, the stigma of it.
You know, I can remember maybe even just over 10 years ago now,
it still felt like it wasn't as something that people were just
so cavalier about. It seemed to be a little bit
clandestine. And there was almost this little
(02:31):
bit of embarrassment around thatthat was what you were doing
because it felt like people werestill seeing the kind of more
traditional methods as a, as a good option.
So we've obviously seen since that time that, that it's almost
the online and whether it's appsor, or websites has kind of
become the first port of call. And it's almost changed the way
that people are interacting by, you know, there's almost that
(02:53):
hesitation to try and do it the,the classic or the traditional
way. Whether that's, you know, fear
of of rejection or just awkwardness about approaching
people, whether that's kind of affected by how technology's
infiltrated our whole life sincethen, who knows?
Leaving that the obvious convenience aside, what else
(03:13):
would you say the most profound changes that the Internet and
technology has introduced to howpeople date today?
The first thing is that it's just given you access to so many
more potential partners. Up until online dating, you are
really only limited to your school, work, family, friends
who you might meet out of an evening at a bar or a nightclub
(03:34):
and then travel, a little bit oftravel and then maybe some
common interests if you play a sport or something like that.
And that was it. And now you can go online and
sort of look for men or women within, you know, 10 to 20 years
of your age within 100 kilometreradius or whatever.
(03:56):
And you can connect with them. And so it's given a
significantly more access. The other thing is that you now
know a lot more about someone before you go out with them.
So especially when you would seemeet someone at a party or at a
bar or something, all you would know is that you find them
(04:16):
physically attractive. You, you, you don't even know if
they're single. And so you don't know how old
they are. You don't know where they live,
you don't know what they do. You, you now you know a lot
about them before you sit down and, and have a date.
And so I think there are advantages and disadvantages to
meeting both offline and online.Yeah.
It's so true that like everything that I guess
(04:39):
technology and the digital worldhas kind of brought us, one of
the problems that it also bringsalong with the benefits is that
scale. As you said, you're you're
supposed to so many more people in so many more options and
whether it just kind of becomes this draining numbers game,
which feels like a lot of peopleare having that as as the big
(05:00):
issue. Like it's so hard to find one
great date or one right person in amongst the gigantic amount
of people that are out there that you've almost got a philtre
through. But I guess that's one of the
pitfalls of online dating and you mentioned there around you
kind of get to know a lot more about someone as we all know
when they're online, you know, people can be anything that they
(05:21):
want to be. And so I'm sure that that still
can be a problem. You know, we've all heard the
term catfishing and and things like that.
Beyond running into someone that's not as they seem based on
your experience, what are some of the other pitfalls people
fall into when they're trying tonavigate dating and
relationships in the digital age?
Well, there are a lot of potential pitfalls.
(05:45):
Let's hear them. It's funny that despite, you
know, you can now say a good 10 to 20 years of online dating has
gone by, people still don't really know how to use online
dating that well. And their expectations are often
unrealistic. And so they get because they
don't really know what they're doing, because no one's ever
(06:06):
taught them, they sort of dive in.
They don't really know what they're doing.
They don't have any support. They get frustrated with it
quickly and they give up. And it's, it's something, I
mean, that's how I got into thiswork.
I probably should have given a little bit more background
because I, I did, I mean, this is going to sound crazy, but I
(06:29):
did 11 years. So I did over a decade of online
dating in three countries, so inAustralia, Canada and the US
before I finally met my husband online.
I was 38 and I got married at 42.
And I think that I would have met someone a lot earlier had I
(06:51):
have known what I was doing. I just, I was, I just learned
through trial and error. And I actually did end up
working with a dating coach myself.
And that certainly helped. And there were other things that
contributed, but I ended up likein that final year, I ended up
making a few changes to my approach to online dating
because I'm like, I'm doing something wrong.
(07:13):
Like I've been doing this for a decade and it's not working.
I'm doing something wrong. I need to make some changes.
So I made a few little changes to my approach and it worked.
And within six months of making those changes, I met my husband,
David. So I think the first pitfall is
not knowing what you're doing and getting frustrated with it
very quickly and giving up. And it makes me really sad when
(07:34):
people give up because I just think, oh, if you just changed
this and did that or whatever, then, you know, if you just
understood this about online dating, then you wouldn't be so
frustrated and you'd keep going and you'd find someone.
Yeah, that's. Only the most common pitfall.
Yeah. So it sounds like obviously your
your story was really one of perseverance there.
(07:54):
And if that's a lesson that you could you could pass on to
anyone, it sounds, sounds like it.
And I think that that kind of, let's call it impatience that
might be causing people to give up too soon.
You know, there's no doubt in mymind that that's born out of
this instant gratification culture that we've kind of found
ourselves right amongst thanks to technology.
(08:16):
But one thing that comes up again and again around, you
know, the world of online datingis probably tied into that is
this notion of kind of shopping culture.
So, you know, we all know how these things work.
And it's kind of swipe, swipe, swipe.
You know, I've seen videos of, of someone building little
robots or hacks for these kind of apps, things that will swipe
(08:38):
like 50,000 profiles in an hour.I don't know, you know, how
they're doing it. And, and it's kind of trying to
beat that numbers game as it's kind of proliferated.
But if people are kind of approaching it as shopping and
you know, like we know when you go shopping, you've got complete
control over what's on the shelfand what you take, whereas a
human, you obviously don't have that control over there.
(09:01):
So has to like you back. Yeah, so, so how?
How, how is this mentality affecting people's experiences?
Or I mean, is it, are you seeingit in I guess what you do and
and how you help people? Yeah, there's that.
There's always the argument like, is it a numbers game?
And well, technically it is a numbers game, but the question
(09:23):
is what are the numbers and how do you play the game?
And so the way I see it is it's like a funnel, like a sales
funnel, but we'll call it a dating funnel.
You need, you need a lot of volume at the top of the funnel
because most people are not going to make it out the bottom
of the funnel. And what I mean by this is let's
(09:44):
say you look at 100 dating profiles you might like or as a
woman, I think men like more of them.
But let's say from a woman's perspective, she might look at
100 dating profiles. She'll swipe right on 20.
She'll end up having messages with about 10 of those guys.
She might speak to them to five of them on the phone.
(10:05):
She, she might get asked out by three of them and end up going
on a date with maybe 2 of them and then hopefully like second,
third or whatever date with one of them and that that one ends
up being her boyfriend. And then if that doesn't work
out, you kind of go through the whole process again.
It's funny. The irony is that people are
(10:26):
really picky at the top of the funnel and they're like, oh, you
know, he's too old or he's too this or he's not enough that or
whatever, whatever. And I just like, I'm like, keep
it. Try to keep it as broad as you
possibly can at the top of the funnel because most of those
guys won't even make it through.They won't message you or
they'll send a board message, orthey won't reply to your message
or you'll, you know that they won't call when they said they
(10:49):
would or they don't ask you out or what, you know, whatever.
So most of those guys at the topof the funnel are going to drop
away anyway. So you can get pickier and
pickier as you go along. I mean, obviously the further
down the funnel you go, like when you're actually thinking of
getting into a relationship withsomeone, you can be very picky.
Obviously you want to be happy, but at the top of the funnel,
(11:14):
that's the irony that we deal with that everyone's very picky
at the top of the funnel becausethey're already sort of
shopping, as you said, for theirideal person.
But because that person has to like you back and because it you
haven't really interacted with this person or got to know them
or see how you converse and laugh and get along or whatever.
You need to be more open minded at the beginning.
(11:36):
And then you can go and get pickier as you go along because
the guys who you found the most attractive or had the funniest
or best profiles, they can drop away.
And the guys who maybe were, youknow, not amazing initially,
they can become more amazing as you get to know them because
they're so lovely and they keep their promises and they take you
on great date. So that's kind of the numbers
(11:58):
game as I would see it. Yeah.
Look, even that from that breakdown there, you know you're
looking at a what a kind of a 1%conversion rate?
That's the same as gales. Yeah, to kind of hit someone
that you might actually go on a second date with.
So it's so easy to see how it could be almost demoralising
(12:20):
after a certain amount of time, especially if you, as you said,
you know, potentially open up the pool and be less picky at
the top of the funnel. Well, you could.
Look at it, I mean, think of it like this.
If you walk into a a bar or a nightclub, there is probably
only one or two for women anyway.
There's probably is only one or two guys in that nightclub that
(12:41):
they would walk out with who whoalso wants to walk out with
them. Of the guys in the club that you
would walk out with, who would walk out with you?
There probably is only one or two in that room, but there are
hundreds of rooms in your city, right?
So, so that's the thing, like it's hard to get your head
around, but it's like anything. If you're wondering why,
(13:04):
especially with women, if you'rewondering why you're swiping
past so many men you're not interested in, they're all the
men that you walk past in the street or you wouldn't look
twice at the bar. They're the same guys.
They're it's the same demographic.
It's just online. That's that's such a good point
and I actually thought about it like that, that they are just
the kind of bodies in the room. I can imagine it feels like so
(13:27):
many more, you know, non matchesbecause you are seeing the one
by one as opposed to just a sea of random faces in one room.
All of that said, we know peopleare kind of shopping.
You know, they might, they mightbe a little bit pickier as they
go further down through the funnel, hopefully getting to
that 1% at the end. Yep.
(13:48):
When people are trying to curatethe most perfect online dating
profile that they have, you knowthat that's their main weapon at
the top of the funnel there. Yeah, ha.
In your experience, has people knowing that they've got just a
few photos and a short bio to make an impression, Does that
result in them portraying what they think the idealised version
(14:10):
of themselves should be, even ifit's not entirely real?
And then does that lead to if they hypothetically match and
meet up, does that increase the chances of leading to
dissatisfaction at how fake you know digital dating is?
Yeah, it's funny. It can go either way.
So on the one hand, someone can choose like the best pictures of
(14:33):
themselves, if they might even choose, if they're a little bit
older, they might choose pictures of themselves when they
were 10 years younger, which canbe very misleading.
They can kind of exaggerate their the amount that they
exercise or their career achievements.
And also people can be very sneaky and not admit that
(14:56):
they're a smoker. I I turned up to more than one
date where I walk into the bar and the guy who has non smoker
on his dating profile is smokingand I'm like oh gosh.
Oh, really? Yeah, that that that happened to
me a couple of times. And so that that can happen.
But I actually think what is more common is that people
(15:18):
undersell themselves because they don't know how to sell
themselves. And so they choose not great
photos of themselves and they'reactually more attractive than
that photo. They also don't know what to say
about themselves. And so when they they say very
generic things like I, I enjoy watching movies, eating out,
travel and going to the beach. And it's like, well, so does
(15:39):
every other human being on the planet.
And so you know nothing more about that person after having
learned that they like to eat out, watch movies, travel and go
to the beach. It's like, what movies do you
like to watch? Where do you like to eat out?
Where have you travelled or where do you want to travel?
You know, what do you do at the beach?
Do you surf? Do you sunbag?
Do you hang out with your friends?
Do you, you know, like, I don't know any more about you.
(16:01):
And I think people, and it's funny because there are highly
educated people, you know, doctors, lawyers, business
people who have no idea how to market themselves on a dating
profile. And that's how I kind of got
into this whole thing because I'm a copywriter.
I have an advertising background.
I see online dating profiles as an ad.
(16:23):
And I often see people don't market themselves very well.
And we've gone from dating sitesto dating apps and it's, you
know, pictures and a few prompts.
As a writer, it makes me really sad because we used to love a
good dating profile. Like, I liked writing them.
I liked reading them. And I still write them for my
clients. And they are are able to use
(16:44):
them depending on what site or app they're using.
But profiles have now been reduced to answering various
prompts. You can still choose good
prompts and respond to them in aclever, interesting way so that
you stand out and get your personality across a little bit
better than just saying very boring and generic things about
(17:07):
yourself. People are actually often more
interesting than their profile. Yeah, I mean, there's two,
there's two things I wanna, I wanna touch on out of everything
you said over the last few minutes.
The first one being that generickind of approach, you know, like
I like food. I like sun, you know what I
mean? I like breeding air.
Yeah. You know, it's like obviously we
(17:27):
all do. And I wonder, you know, if there
is some kind of, you know, reasoning behind that because it
is a very easy match with everyone.
Whereas if you were to say, you know, you do you like, I don't
know, walking on hot coals or something, you might find two
people in the world, you know, and maybe it makes it a lot
harder. So maybe that I like the beach
(17:48):
or I like to have a have a drinkor whatever it is, you know,
that's almost like lowest hanging fruit that could lead to
a potential common interest. And then, you know, as you said,
it's getting to know someone beyond that is where the real
interesting stuff happens. Just on that point as well.
There's something interesting you said there too around people
just don't know how to kind of market themselves.
(18:10):
And I think we all know that, yeah, we've all been in a
situation where you've got to try and write a biography or, or
something about yourself, you know, like maybe you started a
new job or something and, and you've got to write a bit of
detail. And it feels like the most
cringe thing ever. And so asking other people what
what they actually see in you and the good things about you is
(18:32):
probably a get you a lot more truthful answers of what your
strong points are and and B, youknow, alleviates that feeling of
cringe. So I can totally see how that
that is part of a service that someone like yourself might
offer people. But there was something that you
said even before that, which is around you can kind of vet
people a lot more, yes. And so in my mind that, you
(18:58):
know, while, while it feels somewhat demoralising and
overwhelming, this kind of worldof online dating where there
seems to be this endless range of people that you may or may
not think are right for you. But it surely it also presents,
as you said, the ability to, to not only vet people, but it does
(19:18):
add some safety aspect as well, right?
You know, let's let's rewind and, and go back to that
situation in the bar where you might see two people in there
that catch your eye. So if you were leaving the bar
with one of them, you have really no idea what you're
you're getting into. You just kind of hope for the
best. And you know, whereas if you
(19:39):
kind of doing it the digital wayand everybody knows like people
do the, you know, the proverbialstalking of people and, and
stuff like that, whether it's their kind of Instagram or, or
other things they can find aboutthem online.
Does that kind of allow people to see more potential red flags
before you even get to that first date?
And is that almost another philtre that is beneficial for
(20:02):
users in this context? Yeah, look, I think that that's
something I really like about online dating.
Like I, I like that I know more about him than I find him
attractive. Like I know that I I like that.
I know. I mean, assuming that they're
being honest, most people are being honest or reasonably
honest. Yeah.
(20:22):
Yeah. And so I kind of like that I
know how old he is, where he lives, what he does, how he
expresses himself in writing, what his religious and political
beliefs are, whether he likes dogs, whether he's got kids, you
know, like, if he's been marriedbefore.
Like I, I, I think that I I findthat really helpful.
(20:46):
Yeah. No, totally.
And I can imagine that, as you said earlier with the, the kind
of funnel example, that that's just more tools in the kit to
philtre out what I guess what you're not looking for.
But on the topic of, of philtres, A contentious issue
that that I've seen people talking about is very specific
(21:08):
Philtres within these, these dating apps, You know, for
example, one that I've seen talked about a lot is the tight
setting, you know, and, and I'm not sure what the average height
of a guy is, is like 5-9 or something.
Oh, tell me Well. I can tell you, and I'm sure
it's probably the same in Australia, but I believe the
statistic in the US is only 14% of men are 6 feet or taller.
(21:33):
Really. 14 that sounds really low to me.
That's so. I mean, I guess, I guess.
That sounds about right to me. Really.
Yeah. Because you'd probably say, you
know, average man's height wouldbe 510.
OK, so that sounds about right to me.
But, yeah, 14% apparently is what I last heard.
OK. For the US, Yeah.
Look, height's one of those things.
I must admit, personally, I don't get it.
(21:56):
I've never had a height fetish. I'm.
I'm 54, I, I don't, I've dated guys who are 5 five and you
know, up to 65. But I, my husband's like every,
he's taller than me, but he's like average height and I, I
don't really get the height thing.
But yes, I do know a lot of women love height and even short
(22:18):
women, which I, I think is a bitcheeky.
It's like, can you save the tallmen for the tall women, please?
It's a bit naughty, but look, everybody's got their
preferences, but you just need to be aware that the more
preferences you have, the fewer people you have to choose from.
And you've got to ask yourself, are these preferences really a
(22:42):
deal breaker or are they just a preference?
Yeah. And that's, that's a great point
there around the more preferences that you have,
you're obviously narrowing that pool so much further.
You know, I've seen, I think stuff online of people lamenting
the fact that they can't find their ideal person.
And then I take a list of, let'ssay 10, you know, pretty
(23:05):
serious, like rare criteria. And which is just not surprising
that you can't find this person.And I've, I've seen people take
those criteria. Like, let's say it's, I don't
know, someone in New York looking to someone and they've
got this criteria. You know, they're in this
gigantic city full of people, but this criteria, when
someone's run the numbers on it,it there's maybe like two of
(23:27):
those people in the entirety of New York.
And as you said before, one of them or two of them, the, the
feeling needs to be reciprocated.
And so it, it's almost like you said they're setting themselves
up for failure by aiming so highthat you may not see things, you
may not realise that, you know, things that appeal to you.
(23:51):
Obviously that would lead to to so much dissatisfaction, burnout
and feelings of negativity around it.
But I guess the flip side of it is you kind of know what you
want. And if, if someone's like, Yep,
that's what I want, it's like, Imean, more power to them.
They're probably making it more difficult to themselves.
But you know, if that's what they want to do, that's what
they want to do. But with all these ability to
(24:12):
philtre things and presumably the more specific you can get is
to kind of cut through so many numbers and and be as efficient
as possible, which is we all know that's what people try and
get out of technology. That kind of approach, you know,
it's obviously making it harder to find a meaningful long term
(24:32):
relationship. What other ways would you say
that the Internet or dating appsor technology in general makes
it harder for people to find a meaningful date that then might
become a relationship to them, might become, you know,
something even longer than that?I think the whole thing with the
philtres, it's a, it's a trap. It's a trap that everybody falls
(24:53):
into 'cause you think that you need someone to be XY and Z, or
you need them to be not AB and Cfor you to be happy.
And you actually don't realise that you don't need all of those
things. You might need some of them.
Like, I mean, obviously, you know, there are obviously
everyone has reasonable boundaries, but when you've got
(25:15):
preferences, you're not allowingany room to be pleasantly
surprised that that is the thingthat I think that technology has
taken away a little bit. Of course, you can learn to
overcome that and, and not judgepeople so quickly or so harshly
and just take one extra step in the process to get to know them.
(25:36):
Like if you're not sure, have some messages with them.
Or if you've had some messages, speak on the phone.
If you've spoke on the phone, goon one date.
Just because you go on one date with someone doesn't mean you're
going to marry them. Like, yeah.
For sure. You don't have to you just if
you just take one more step in the getting to know your
process. If you're not sure, you may end
up being pleasantly surprised and instead of holding so fast
(25:58):
to he has to be within this age range, or he has to live within
this this parameter, or he has to have a university degree, or
he has to this, or he has to be a professional who wears a suit
and tie, or he has to, you know,like you, you don't need these
things as much as you think you do.
You you need someone who you find attractive, whose company
you enjoy, who treats you well, and with whom you have an easy
(26:23):
relationship, where you want fight, really, you make up
quickly. You want to be committed in the
same ways. So you want to be monogamous, or
you want to live together, or you want to be married, or you
want to have kids or you whatever, whatever.
These are the things that are going to make you happy.
A guy who is 6/1 is not going tomake you happier than a guy
(26:47):
who's 511. He just isn't right.
It's it's irrelevant when it comes down to spending your life
with someone. And so in the early stages, we
can think we can make the mistake.
And gosh, I did for the longest time made the mistake of
thinking I need this kind of a guy and I know what I want.
And I didn't know anything. I thought I did.
(27:10):
But what I The thing is, this isthe thing, OK, I actually ended
up getting everything I wanted. I just got it in a package that
I didn't expect, right? So I wanted someone smart.
I wanted someone funny. I wanted someone sophisticated.
But I thought I needed someone who is university educated,
someone who made X amount of money, someone who lived in a
(27:31):
certain place, someone I thought, I thought I needed this
criteria to get the smart, the funny that they.
And when I started being a little bit more open minded and
I met my husband, I like becausehe didn't take a lot of those
boxes in the past, I would have gone on, No, no, no, he's not,
(27:52):
he's not right for me. Whereas then I was starting to
be a little bit more open minded.
And when I got to know him, I found out he was all those
things. He was all those things.
He just didn't take all the check boxes that I thought
needed to be checked to get the smart, the funny, the
sophisticated. And so that's why I'm such a big
(28:12):
believer in just getting to knowsomeone just a bit better.
I mean, obviously you don't keepgetting to know someone if they
treat you badly or you just findthem terribly boring or you're
just not feeling or whatever. But I think when you're doing
online dating, people cut peopleoff way too soon that they say 1
(28:33):
little thing or they do 1 littlething or they post a picture
that you don't like or they whatever.
They're, there's a little subtle, some criteria thing and
you and you're like, Nah, they're gone.
And I think that's a, a mistake.And I think that if you could
just get to know people just a little bit more before you
decide they're not for you, you're going to find someone a
(28:54):
lot quicker. That's with online dating.
But you were talking about technology more broadly, like
social media. Look, let's carry on from that
point that you were just just talking about there around being
kind of pleasantly surprised. You know, when when you you kind
of get to see aspects of somebody that aren't aren't kind
of visible immediately just on the point of what's at the
(29:16):
surface and what you can see. You know, you can disregard
someone very quickly if you're just if you're just kind of
looking at that top level staff,I'm not getting, you know, this
person doesn't have exactly everything that's on my
checklist, etcetera, etcetera. So you're not really invested
much time or emotion into this person at all.
(29:36):
And so you don't feel possibly that they're worth that time.
And, and this this leads me on to my question.
So you've previously spoken about dating a disrespect.
How much of this is tied into just natural human behaviour?
And how much of it do you think is a byproduct of the way that
(29:57):
this technology works and the way that people use it?
I mean, obviously I, I think it's a bit of both, like, you
know, it's the whole nature and nurture thing.
I think technology can bring outthe best and the worst in
people. And we have become a very
instant gratification, minimal patients culture.
But at the same time, you need to stop and appreciate the
(30:21):
unprecedented access to finding the love of your life that this
top technology has created. And so I think it's AI think
it's a little bit of both. People are always looking for
ways to be more time efficient. And so they think that
dismissing someone quickly is saving time.
But it's not saving time if you're going from one person to
(30:44):
the next person to the next person and never finding anyone.
So if you put a little bit more and not, not a lot, just a
little bit more time upfront before you move on from someone,
you're probably going to find someone a lot quicker because
you'll find that the person thatyou were like, I don't know if
I'm that interested. We, when you get to know them
(31:05):
just a little bit more and a little bit more, and especially
as you see how they treat you and you go, oh, wow, they're,
you know, they're a really good listener or they're really
thoughtful, or they always keep their promises or they're fun,
fun to be with. If you dismiss them early,
you're never going to get to know any of those things.
Yeah. And it sounds like that, that,
you know, everything that you said, and we mentioned it a
(31:26):
couple of minutes ago, as well as this kind of instant
gratification culture is actually user behaviour that is
potentially driving so much of this dissatisfaction with this
world. And that leads me, I guess, to
my next point, which is say, saythere's, there's people now who
are in their early 20's, the waythat they see the way that
millennials would have used something like Facebook and,
(31:49):
and, you know, putting everything out there forever.
They, they just find it so cringe and would not dream of
putting that much stuff online because, you know, I think that
they've had the advantage of growing up into the world where
they can see that one mistake or, you know, something you do
wrong or say wrong on video has could potentially have serious
(32:11):
consequences. So they're, they're naturally
way more wary of, of the technology.
And I, you know, a separate issue is I think that it's, it's
affecting the way that they interact with each other in the
real world. But are people of younger ages
approaching online dating and relationships differently to,
say, people 10 years ago or 20 years ago?
(32:32):
Look, I I'll have to be honest and say I'm not an expert on Gen
Z, but from what I can gather, Ithink that they really take all
this technology for granted. I, I, I think they romanticise
what dating was like before online dating and it's not as
(32:52):
great as they think it is. I was, I was there, I was there,
I did it. It wasn't that great, right?
You, you didn't necessarily get treated any better.
It wasn't necessarily easier to find someone.
And especially after a certain age, like once school and
(33:13):
parties and travel and everything has kind of Pete it
out and your friends have pairedup and they're getting engaged
and they're moving in together and they're, you know, if you're
left single, you're just not meeting a lot of people anymore.
And that's when I started doing online dating when I was 27.
But I think that they take it for granted and they they have
(33:35):
contempt for it. Yeah, right.
They just think that it's like, ruin the world and ruin dating.
And it's not that extreme. I think they should be grateful
for it. I think it can be a very useful
tool if you use it effectively. But I also think that when
you're younger, you probably don't need it quite as much.
Yeah, no, totally. And I think that you, you touch
(33:57):
on something there which was as we all know when you are
younger, like you've got way less other stuff generally, you
know, going on in your life. You know what I mean, like, but
how many times do you know whether it's yourself or your
friends or whatever, you know, so I can't wait for Friday.
I can't wait for Saturday. It's like the highlight of your
week is like going out. Yes, you know, you deal with the
(34:19):
shit all through the rest of theweek until you get to that that
weekend point and you can deal deal with that.
So it makes sense that as you people grow out of that, they're
almost a bit lost without knowing how, as you said, these
tools can work and actually justpivot the way that they try and
meet someone without, you know, getting shitfaced in in a club
(34:42):
or or something, you know, and everything that comes with that.
But because you are working withpeople who who are potentially
coming into the world of online dating and may feel that it's
it's not working for them or it's a problem, etcetera.
What tactics or strategies wouldyou say help prime people for
success in the world of digital dating and relationships?
(35:03):
The first thing is just having realistic expectations.
I, I have like a 20 step system,but the, and, but it's broke
into the three parts and the first part is nailing your
online dating mindset. And then I've got Part 2 is like
nailing your online dating game and then Part 3 is nailing your
offline dating game, but nailingyour online dating mindset in
(35:25):
terms of like we talked about the online dating numbers game.
So, you know, if you expect to get on look at 100 profiles and
go on a date with 50 guys, it's just not, you're not going to
get 50 dates out of 100 profiles.
So just kind of understanding and then also sort of
understanding that online is just a digital version of the
(35:48):
real world. It's the, it would be the same
statistics if you were to walk into a a bar or a party or, or
walk down the street. Yeah.
Just understanding that it's worth giving as many people as
possible a go at the beginning because they will naturally
philtre out as you go through the process.
And, and then not being so pickyabout age and where they live.
(36:12):
And just to allow yourself to bepleasantly surprised and just
just understanding these, these things.
And then a very sort of basic, reasonable screening process so
that they're not running out on coffee dates with every single
guy who asks them on a coffee date, because that can be really
exhausting. And so I, I say, look, just, you
(36:32):
know, swap a few nice messages. If that goes well, you know,
suggests that you have a phone call and lock in like a day and
a time to speak on the phone. And then if that goes well and
he asks you out, go on the date.That can all happen within a
week, within a week, you, you can match, you can swap a few
messages, you can speak on the phone and you can be out on a
(36:55):
date all within seven days. So it's not a long screening
process, but it just means that by the time you end up on a date
with someone, someone has taken a little bit of time to get to
know you and put a little bit ofeffort into you.
And it's amazing how many guys like my clients, guys that
they're dating drop off along that process and they and they,
(37:17):
and they always say, Oh, I'm so glad I didn't end up on a date
with him because it would have been boring or he would have
been not very nice or whatever. And so just little things like
that because you can run yourself ragged going out on a
million coffee dates. You can also be too picky and
you're not going on any dates and not getting to know anybody.
And so it's just learning the whole process.
(37:40):
That would be the first thing isexpectations.
People go into it with unrealistic expectations of what
online dating can do for them. And when they when those
expectations aren't met, they get very frustrated and they
give up. And so that's, that's the first
thing, just understanding the whole process and doing it in a
way that feels as effortless as possible.
(38:03):
I mean, obviously dating takes effort, but it shouldn't make
you miserable. If it's making you miserable,
you're doing something wrong. Yeah, that's, there's a few, few
themes that that are coming up through all of that.
And it's, you know, one that I keep thinking is that, you know,
the more things change, the morethey stay the same, which is our
basic kind of human needs and wants aren't changing.
(38:27):
It's almost just that the numbers game feels like you're
fighting through so much more because you're disregarding
everybody. Whereas you said something there
a couple of minutes ago that youalmost need to flip that numbers
game and cast the net wide and let the natural philtre do its
thing. So this.
Yeah, You know, it sounds like alot of people claiming that, you
(38:51):
know, the Internet and technology has ruined dating are
actually partly their own worst enemy, by the way, that they're
using it rather than strategically like a tool, as as
you've been saying. But for those people you know
who might be feeling overwhelmedor burnt out by their experience
with dating in this digital world, what would you say is the
(39:14):
most instantly actionable piece of advice that you would give
them to change their mindset andand get back into it positively?
Look, take a break, just don't take too long a break.
So take a take a month off, you know, take a month off.
Just don't take 6 to 12 months off.
(39:35):
You, you don't need 6 to 12 months to get over a bad date.
You know, like I see it. Oh man, I see it on social media
all the time. You know, these girls will get
on and tell this long rant aboutthis guy.
And I'm, I'm thinking it's just one guy.
It's just one guy. Like the next guy that you meet
(39:56):
online could be really nice. I'm like, don't let this one guy
ruin it for you, or don't even let a handful of guys ruin it
for you. And they, you know, they sort of
think you know, and then you'll see all these comments
underneath. This is why I don't do online
datings. Like really, This is why this
one guy has ruined all of dating.
For you. Yeah, Yeah, it's kind of.
(40:16):
I can. I can imagine there's something
in that, you know, the whole misery loves company thing.
Oh, like, I'm sure. Absolutely.
That is probably that is really one of the most toxic things.
Yeah, you know, I can imagine. Moment it's almost become it's
uncool to be optimistic. It it is absolutely a misery
loves company cesspit where everyone is just in there,
(40:40):
especially women bitching and moaning about men and dating and
it's all awful. I'm never going to find someone
and I've decided to be alone andblah, blah, blah.
And it's just like it's, it's really, it's really sad.
And it's like you have got yearsand decades ahead of you.
Like don't spend it like. In negativity.
(41:03):
Yeah, in that in that negative mindset, yeah, it's a real
shame. And it's and if you jumped into
the one of those comments and said something positive about
dating, you would get destroyed.Really.
That sounds awful. Yeah.
It's like real crabs in a bucketstuff.
Yeah, That's that's God, that's so interesting.
(41:25):
And that makes so much sense that everybody would have
probably had a bad experience. And the way to kind of
commiserate and show camaraderieis by saying, yeah, I've had a
bad experience too. And then maybe overplaying how
bad it was of who's had the worst dating experience and just
kind of becomes this mentally self fulfilling prophecy.
(41:48):
Yeah, well, it's just kind of, Ithink it's letting the bad guys
win. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why would you let these, you know, a holes ruin your entire
love life? Like don't let them like rise
above it. Like, of course, look, everybody
needs to, you know, sort of download every now and then.
(42:10):
And you know, there's nothing wrong with having a, a whinge to
your girlfriends or you know, orsharing a bad experience or
whatever. But it's when you let that one
bad experience or a few bad experiences like ruin your
entire romantic future and you decide that I'm not never dating
again or I hate all men or whatever, that that's when I, I
(42:31):
think it's really sad and unfortunate.
And life isn't short. Life is long and there are life
is long and there are many yearsand decades.
And I don't think that you should let a few bad apples or
even more than a few bad apples spoil the bunch.
I mean, I have seen people pick themselves up and dust
(42:55):
themselves off and find love again against all odds.
And I just have so much admiration for them.
My have got a funny story. My husband's aunt lost her
husband when she was in her late70s.
And when she was 80, she got remarried.
(43:18):
And she was with that husband for 12 years until he passed
away when she was 9212 years. Yeah. 12 years.
And you would think that like at80, all of that is over.
No, she had a whole 12 year relationship with someone after
the age of 80 and I what? A great story.
(43:39):
You're not. You're not gone until you're
gone. Yeah, look, and I think that
that's that's such a good way ofof looking at it.
And it seems like that for all the talk of how, you know, the
Internet has ruined dating for so many people, a lot of it, as
you said, have just can kind of come down to two keywords, which
(44:00):
is perseverance and positivity. And I'm sure that if you are
persevering and positive, like attracts like.
And I guess that's what everybody's going to want.
Thanks so much for that, Ellie. What's on the horizon for you
and where can people follow whatyou're up to?
OK well my website is your dating bestie.com I have a free
(44:23):
training. It's a 20 minute video.
It's called empowered AF. How to find Mr. Right without
having to change yourself, loweryour standards or waste your
time. I have a podcast called the your
dating bestie podcast. I also turn each episode into an
article on medium and sub stack.And if you just Google my name,
(44:44):
Ellie Klein E double Y Klein is Klein just like Calvin Klein
underwear. I'm proud of that.
You can find me or just you can search your dating bestie on,
you know, Instagram and medium sub stack and podcasts and
you'll find me. Awesome, Ali.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much Gareth, great
(45:05):
chat. For more info on what we've
discussed today, check out the show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you cansubscribe to Ruined by the
Internet on your favourite podcast app and help spread the
word by sharing this episode or leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next time.
Welcome to ruined by the Internet.
I'm Gareth King. Today we're asking, has the
Internet ruined dating? It promised us unprecedented
connection, but for many people,the Internet instead damaged the
quality and authenticity of dating by offering endless
choice, a shopping mentality, and reduced emphasis on genuine,
in person connection. To help us get to the heart of
things, we're joined by Ellie Klein, a professional dating
(00:22):
mentor, author, and founder of Your Dating Bestie.
Ellie, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the
show. Thanks, Gareth.
Before we begin, can you tell usa bit about the work that you do
and your journey that led you tothis point?
I can. OK, well I call myself a
(00:42):
professional dating mentor. I mean the more common term is
dating coach, but I just don't like the word coach.
I kind of see myself more as a mentor.
So I have a business where I help women who want to find the
Mr. Right go from dating sucks to dating success and my
business is called your dating bestie 'cause I I take a unique
best friend approach to this. Yeah, interesting.
(01:05):
You know, dating sucks to to success.
It seems like that's a very prevalent need right now.
General vibe out there is is that you know, things aren't as
good as they could be and hopefully we can get to the
bottom of that today. But you've been evolved in the
world of dating and coaching in various ways for a while now.
Have you been surprised by just how huge online dating has
(01:26):
become over that time? Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's funny. I was sort of around from the
start because I, you know, I went to high school in the 90s
and, you know, I was dating in the late 90s and early 2000s and
I didn't start doing online dating until I was 27.
That was in 2005. And that was back in the day
(01:48):
where there were, it was no apps.
It was, it was dating websites. And people were still saying on
their dating profiles, like, I can't believe I'm doing this.
So, you know, it was, it was sort of still a little bit
taboo. And now it's probably gone so
far in the opposite direction that it's almost like people
have gone back to meeting offline.
(02:09):
Yeah. And I think that's, it's quite
an interesting point you've justraised there around the kind of
taboo or, you know, this, the stigma of it.
You know, I can remember maybe even just over 10 years ago now,
it still felt like it wasn't as something that people were just
so cavalier about. It seemed to be a little bit
clandestine. And there was almost this little
(02:31):
bit of embarrassment around thatthat was what you were doing
because it felt like people werestill seeing the kind of more
traditional methods as a, as a good option.
So we've obviously seen since that time that, that it's almost
the online and whether it's appsor, or websites has kind of
become the first port of call. And it's almost changed the way
that people are interacting by, you know, there's almost that
(02:53):
hesitation to try and do it the,the classic or the traditional
way. Whether that's, you know, fear
of of rejection or just awkwardness about approaching
people, whether that's kind of affected by how technology's
infiltrated our whole life sincethen, who knows?
Leaving that the obvious convenience aside, what else
(03:13):
would you say the most profound changes that the Internet and
technology has introduced to howpeople date today?
The first thing is that it's just given you access to so many
more potential partners. Up until online dating, you are
really only limited to your school, work, family, friends
who you might meet out of an evening at a bar or a nightclub
(03:34):
and then travel, a little bit oftravel and then maybe some
common interests if you play a sport or something like that.
And that was it. And now you can go online and
sort of look for men or women within, you know, 10 to 20 years
of your age within 100 kilometreradius or whatever.
(03:56):
And you can connect with them. And so it's given a
significantly more access. The other thing is that you now
know a lot more about someone before you go out with them.
So especially when you would seemeet someone at a party or at a
bar or something, all you would know is that you find them
(04:16):
physically attractive. You, you, you don't even know if
they're single. And so you don't know how old
they are. You don't know where they live,
you don't know what they do. You, you now you know a lot
about them before you sit down and, and have a date.
And so I think there are advantages and disadvantages to
meeting both offline and online.Yeah.
It's so true that like everything that I guess
(04:39):
technology and the digital worldhas kind of brought us, one of
the problems that it also bringsalong with the benefits is that
scale. As you said, you're you're
supposed to so many more people in so many more options and
whether it just kind of becomes this draining numbers game,
which feels like a lot of peopleare having that as as the big
(05:00):
issue. Like it's so hard to find one
great date or one right person in amongst the gigantic amount
of people that are out there that you've almost got a philtre
through. But I guess that's one of the
pitfalls of online dating and you mentioned there around you
kind of get to know a lot more about someone as we all know
when they're online, you know, people can be anything that they
(05:21):
want to be. And so I'm sure that that still
can be a problem. You know, we've all heard the
term catfishing and and things like that.
Beyond running into someone that's not as they seem based on
your experience, what are some of the other pitfalls people
fall into when they're trying tonavigate dating and
relationships in the digital age?
Well, there are a lot of potential pitfalls.
(05:45):
Let's hear them. It's funny that despite, you
know, you can now say a good 10 to 20 years of online dating has
gone by, people still don't really know how to use online
dating that well. And their expectations are often
unrealistic. And so they get because they
don't really know what they're doing, because no one's ever
(06:06):
taught them, they sort of dive in.
They don't really know what they're doing.
They don't have any support. They get frustrated with it
quickly and they give up. And it's, it's something, I
mean, that's how I got into thiswork.
I probably should have given a little bit more background
because I, I did, I mean, this is going to sound crazy, but I
(06:29):
did 11 years. So I did over a decade of online
dating in three countries, so inAustralia, Canada and the US
before I finally met my husband online.
I was 38 and I got married at 42.
And I think that I would have met someone a lot earlier had I
(06:51):
have known what I was doing. I just, I was, I just learned
through trial and error. And I actually did end up
working with a dating coach myself.
And that certainly helped. And there were other things that
contributed, but I ended up likein that final year, I ended up
making a few changes to my approach to online dating
because I'm like, I'm doing something wrong.
(07:13):
Like I've been doing this for a decade and it's not working.
I'm doing something wrong. I need to make some changes.
So I made a few little changes to my approach and it worked.
And within six months of making those changes, I met my husband,
David. So I think the first pitfall is
not knowing what you're doing and getting frustrated with it
very quickly and giving up. And it makes me really sad when
(07:34):
people give up because I just think, oh, if you just changed
this and did that or whatever, then, you know, if you just
understood this about online dating, then you wouldn't be so
frustrated and you'd keep going and you'd find someone.
Yeah, that's. Only the most common pitfall.
Yeah. So it sounds like obviously your
your story was really one of perseverance there.
(07:54):
And if that's a lesson that you could you could pass on to
anyone, it sounds, sounds like it.
And I think that that kind of, let's call it impatience that
might be causing people to give up too soon.
You know, there's no doubt in mymind that that's born out of
this instant gratification culture that we've kind of found
ourselves right amongst thanks to technology.
(08:16):
But one thing that comes up again and again around, you
know, the world of online datingis probably tied into that is
this notion of kind of shopping culture.
So, you know, we all know how these things work.
And it's kind of swipe, swipe, swipe.
You know, I've seen videos of, of someone building little
robots or hacks for these kind of apps, things that will swipe
(08:38):
like 50,000 profiles in an hour.I don't know, you know, how
they're doing it. And, and it's kind of trying to
beat that numbers game as it's kind of proliferated.
But if people are kind of approaching it as shopping and
you know, like we know when you go shopping, you've got complete
control over what's on the shelfand what you take, whereas a
human, you obviously don't have that control over there.
(09:01):
So has to like you back. Yeah, so, so how?
How, how is this mentality affecting people's experiences?
Or I mean, is it, are you seeingit in I guess what you do and
and how you help people? Yeah, there's that.
There's always the argument like, is it a numbers game?
And well, technically it is a numbers game, but the question
(09:23):
is what are the numbers and how do you play the game?
And so the way I see it is it's like a funnel, like a sales
funnel, but we'll call it a dating funnel.
You need, you need a lot of volume at the top of the funnel
because most people are not going to make it out the bottom
of the funnel. And what I mean by this is let's
(09:44):
say you look at 100 dating profiles you might like or as a
woman, I think men like more of them.
But let's say from a woman's perspective, she might look at
100 dating profiles. She'll swipe right on 20.
She'll end up having messages with about 10 of those guys.
She might speak to them to five of them on the phone.
(10:05):
She, she might get asked out by three of them and end up going
on a date with maybe 2 of them and then hopefully like second,
third or whatever date with one of them and that that one ends
up being her boyfriend. And then if that doesn't work
out, you kind of go through the whole process again.
It's funny. The irony is that people are
(10:26):
really picky at the top of the funnel and they're like, oh, you
know, he's too old or he's too this or he's not enough that or
whatever, whatever. And I just like, I'm like, keep
it. Try to keep it as broad as you
possibly can at the top of the funnel because most of those
guys won't even make it through.They won't message you or
they'll send a board message, orthey won't reply to your message
or you'll, you know that they won't call when they said they
(10:49):
would or they don't ask you out or what, you know, whatever.
So most of those guys at the topof the funnel are going to drop
away anyway. So you can get pickier and
pickier as you go along. I mean, obviously the further
down the funnel you go, like when you're actually thinking of
getting into a relationship withsomeone, you can be very picky.
Obviously you want to be happy, but at the top of the funnel,
(11:14):
that's the irony that we deal with that everyone's very picky
at the top of the funnel becausethey're already sort of
shopping, as you said, for theirideal person.
But because that person has to like you back and because it you
haven't really interacted with this person or got to know them
or see how you converse and laugh and get along or whatever.
You need to be more open minded at the beginning.
(11:36):
And then you can go and get pickier as you go along because
the guys who you found the most attractive or had the funniest
or best profiles, they can drop away.
And the guys who maybe were, youknow, not amazing initially,
they can become more amazing as you get to know them because
they're so lovely and they keep their promises and they take you
on great date. So that's kind of the numbers
(11:58):
game as I would see it. Yeah.
Look, even that from that breakdown there, you know you're
looking at a what a kind of a 1%conversion rate?
That's the same as gales. Yeah, to kind of hit someone
that you might actually go on a second date with.
So it's so easy to see how it could be almost demoralising
(12:20):
after a certain amount of time, especially if you, as you said,
you know, potentially open up the pool and be less picky at
the top of the funnel. Well, you could.
Look at it, I mean, think of it like this.
If you walk into a a bar or a nightclub, there is probably
only one or two for women anyway.
There's probably is only one or two guys in that nightclub that
(12:41):
they would walk out with who whoalso wants to walk out with
them. Of the guys in the club that you
would walk out with, who would walk out with you?
There probably is only one or two in that room, but there are
hundreds of rooms in your city, right?
So, so that's the thing, like it's hard to get your head
around, but it's like anything. If you're wondering why,
(13:04):
especially with women, if you'rewondering why you're swiping
past so many men you're not interested in, they're all the
men that you walk past in the street or you wouldn't look
twice at the bar. They're the same guys.
They're it's the same demographic.
It's just online. That's that's such a good point
and I actually thought about it like that, that they are just
the kind of bodies in the room. I can imagine it feels like so
(13:27):
many more, you know, non matchesbecause you are seeing the one
by one as opposed to just a sea of random faces in one room.
All of that said, we know peopleare kind of shopping.
You know, they might, they mightbe a little bit pickier as they
go further down through the funnel, hopefully getting to
that 1% at the end. Yep.
(13:48):
When people are trying to curatethe most perfect online dating
profile that they have, you knowthat that's their main weapon at
the top of the funnel there. Yeah, ha.
In your experience, has people knowing that they've got just a
few photos and a short bio to make an impression, Does that
result in them portraying what they think the idealised version
(14:10):
of themselves should be, even ifit's not entirely real?
And then does that lead to if they hypothetically match and
meet up, does that increase the chances of leading to
dissatisfaction at how fake you know digital dating is?
Yeah, it's funny. It can go either way.
So on the one hand, someone can choose like the best pictures of
(14:33):
themselves, if they might even choose, if they're a little bit
older, they might choose pictures of themselves when they
were 10 years younger, which canbe very misleading.
They can kind of exaggerate their the amount that they
exercise or their career achievements.
And also people can be very sneaky and not admit that
(14:56):
they're a smoker. I I turned up to more than one
date where I walk into the bar and the guy who has non smoker
on his dating profile is smokingand I'm like oh gosh.
Oh, really? Yeah, that that that happened to
me a couple of times. And so that that can happen.
But I actually think what is more common is that people
(15:18):
undersell themselves because they don't know how to sell
themselves. And so they choose not great
photos of themselves and they'reactually more attractive than
that photo. They also don't know what to say
about themselves. And so when they they say very
generic things like I, I enjoy watching movies, eating out,
travel and going to the beach. And it's like, well, so does
(15:39):
every other human being on the planet.
And so you know nothing more about that person after having
learned that they like to eat out, watch movies, travel and go
to the beach. It's like, what movies do you
like to watch? Where do you like to eat out?
Where have you travelled or where do you want to travel?
You know, what do you do at the beach?
Do you surf? Do you sunbag?
Do you hang out with your friends?
Do you, you know, like, I don't know any more about you.
(16:01):
And I think people, and it's funny because there are highly
educated people, you know, doctors, lawyers, business
people who have no idea how to market themselves on a dating
profile. And that's how I kind of got
into this whole thing because I'm a copywriter.
I have an advertising background.
I see online dating profiles as an ad.
(16:23):
And I often see people don't market themselves very well.
And we've gone from dating sitesto dating apps and it's, you
know, pictures and a few prompts.
As a writer, it makes me really sad because we used to love a
good dating profile. Like, I liked writing them.
I liked reading them. And I still write them for my
clients. And they are are able to use
(16:44):
them depending on what site or app they're using.
But profiles have now been reduced to answering various
prompts. You can still choose good
prompts and respond to them in aclever, interesting way so that
you stand out and get your personality across a little bit
better than just saying very boring and generic things about
(17:07):
yourself. People are actually often more
interesting than their profile. Yeah, I mean, there's two,
there's two things I wanna, I wanna touch on out of everything
you said over the last few minutes.
The first one being that generickind of approach, you know, like
I like food. I like sun, you know what I
mean? I like breeding air.
Yeah. You know, it's like obviously we
(17:27):
all do. And I wonder, you know, if there
is some kind of, you know, reasoning behind that because it
is a very easy match with everyone.
Whereas if you were to say, you know, you do you like, I don't
know, walking on hot coals or something, you might find two
people in the world, you know, and maybe it makes it a lot
harder. So maybe that I like the beach
(17:48):
or I like to have a have a drinkor whatever it is, you know,
that's almost like lowest hanging fruit that could lead to
a potential common interest. And then, you know, as you said,
it's getting to know someone beyond that is where the real
interesting stuff happens. Just on that point as well.
There's something interesting you said there too around people
just don't know how to kind of market themselves.
(18:10):
And I think we all know that, yeah, we've all been in a
situation where you've got to try and write a biography or, or
something about yourself, you know, like maybe you started a
new job or something and, and you've got to write a bit of
detail. And it feels like the most
cringe thing ever. And so asking other people what
what they actually see in you and the good things about you is
(18:32):
probably a get you a lot more truthful answers of what your
strong points are and and B, youknow, alleviates that feeling of
cringe. So I can totally see how that
that is part of a service that someone like yourself might
offer people. But there was something that you
said even before that, which is around you can kind of vet
people a lot more, yes. And so in my mind that, you
(18:58):
know, while, while it feels somewhat demoralising and
overwhelming, this kind of worldof online dating where there
seems to be this endless range of people that you may or may
not think are right for you. But it surely it also presents,
as you said, the ability to, to not only vet people, but it does
(19:18):
add some safety aspect as well, right?
You know, let's let's rewind and, and go back to that
situation in the bar where you might see two people in there
that catch your eye. So if you were leaving the bar
with one of them, you have really no idea what you're
you're getting into. You just kind of hope for the
best. And you know, whereas if you
(19:39):
kind of doing it the digital wayand everybody knows like people
do the, you know, the proverbialstalking of people and, and
stuff like that, whether it's their kind of Instagram or, or
other things they can find aboutthem online.
Does that kind of allow people to see more potential red flags
before you even get to that first date?
And is that almost another philtre that is beneficial for
(20:02):
users in this context? Yeah, look, I think that that's
something I really like about online dating.
Like I, I like that I know more about him than I find him
attractive. Like I know that I I like that.
I know. I mean, assuming that they're
being honest, most people are being honest or reasonably
honest. Yeah.
(20:22):
Yeah. And so I kind of like that I
know how old he is, where he lives, what he does, how he
expresses himself in writing, what his religious and political
beliefs are, whether he likes dogs, whether he's got kids, you
know, like, if he's been marriedbefore.
Like I, I, I think that I I findthat really helpful.
(20:46):
Yeah. No, totally.
And I can imagine that, as you said earlier with the, the kind
of funnel example, that that's just more tools in the kit to
philtre out what I guess what you're not looking for.
But on the topic of, of philtres, A contentious issue
that that I've seen people talking about is very specific
(21:08):
Philtres within these, these dating apps, You know, for
example, one that I've seen talked about a lot is the tight
setting, you know, and, and I'm not sure what the average height
of a guy is, is like 5-9 or something.
Oh, tell me Well. I can tell you, and I'm sure
it's probably the same in Australia, but I believe the
statistic in the US is only 14% of men are 6 feet or taller.
(21:33):
Really. 14 that sounds really low to me.
That's so. I mean, I guess, I guess.
That sounds about right to me. Really.
Yeah. Because you'd probably say, you
know, average man's height wouldbe 510.
OK, so that sounds about right to me.
But, yeah, 14% apparently is what I last heard.
OK. For the US, Yeah.
Look, height's one of those things.
I must admit, personally, I don't get it.
(21:56):
I've never had a height fetish. I'm.
I'm 54, I, I don't, I've dated guys who are 5 five and you
know, up to 65. But I, my husband's like every,
he's taller than me, but he's like average height and I, I
don't really get the height thing.
But yes, I do know a lot of women love height and even short
(22:18):
women, which I, I think is a bitcheeky.
It's like, can you save the tallmen for the tall women, please?
It's a bit naughty, but look, everybody's got their
preferences, but you just need to be aware that the more
preferences you have, the fewer people you have to choose from.
And you've got to ask yourself, are these preferences really a
(22:42):
deal breaker or are they just a preference?
Yeah. And that's, that's a great point
there around the more preferences that you have,
you're obviously narrowing that pool so much further.
You know, I've seen, I think stuff online of people lamenting
the fact that they can't find their ideal person.
And then I take a list of, let'ssay 10, you know, pretty
(23:05):
serious, like rare criteria. And which is just not surprising
that you can't find this person.And I've, I've seen people take
those criteria. Like, let's say it's, I don't
know, someone in New York looking to someone and they've
got this criteria. You know, they're in this
gigantic city full of people, but this criteria, when
someone's run the numbers on it,it there's maybe like two of
(23:27):
those people in the entirety of New York.
And as you said before, one of them or two of them, the, the
feeling needs to be reciprocated.
And so it, it's almost like you said they're setting themselves
up for failure by aiming so highthat you may not see things, you
may not realise that, you know, things that appeal to you.
(23:51):
Obviously that would lead to to so much dissatisfaction, burnout
and feelings of negativity around it.
But I guess the flip side of it is you kind of know what you
want. And if, if someone's like, Yep,
that's what I want, it's like, Imean, more power to them.
They're probably making it more difficult to themselves.
But you know, if that's what they want to do, that's what
they want to do. But with all these ability to
(24:12):
philtre things and presumably the more specific you can get is
to kind of cut through so many numbers and and be as efficient
as possible, which is we all know that's what people try and
get out of technology. That kind of approach, you know,
it's obviously making it harder to find a meaningful long term
(24:32):
relationship. What other ways would you say
that the Internet or dating appsor technology in general makes
it harder for people to find a meaningful date that then might
become a relationship to them, might become, you know,
something even longer than that?I think the whole thing with the
philtres, it's a, it's a trap. It's a trap that everybody falls
(24:53):
into 'cause you think that you need someone to be XY and Z, or
you need them to be not AB and Cfor you to be happy.
And you actually don't realise that you don't need all of those
things. You might need some of them.
Like, I mean, obviously, you know, there are obviously
everyone has reasonable boundaries, but when you've got
(25:15):
preferences, you're not allowingany room to be pleasantly
surprised that that is the thingthat I think that technology has
taken away a little bit. Of course, you can learn to
overcome that and, and not judgepeople so quickly or so harshly
and just take one extra step in the process to get to know them.
(25:36):
Like if you're not sure, have some messages with them.
Or if you've had some messages, speak on the phone.
If you've spoke on the phone, goon one date.
Just because you go on one date with someone doesn't mean you're
going to marry them. Like, yeah.
For sure. You don't have to you just if
you just take one more step in the getting to know your
process. If you're not sure, you may end
up being pleasantly surprised and instead of holding so fast
(25:58):
to he has to be within this age range, or he has to live within
this this parameter, or he has to have a university degree, or
he has to this, or he has to be a professional who wears a suit
and tie, or he has to, you know,like you, you don't need these
things as much as you think you do.
You you need someone who you find attractive, whose company
you enjoy, who treats you well, and with whom you have an easy
(26:23):
relationship, where you want fight, really, you make up
quickly. You want to be committed in the
same ways. So you want to be monogamous, or
you want to live together, or you want to be married, or you
want to have kids or you whatever, whatever.
These are the things that are going to make you happy.
A guy who is 6/1 is not going tomake you happier than a guy
(26:47):
who's 511. He just isn't right.
It's it's irrelevant when it comes down to spending your life
with someone. And so in the early stages, we
can think we can make the mistake.
And gosh, I did for the longest time made the mistake of
thinking I need this kind of a guy and I know what I want.
And I didn't know anything. I thought I did.
(27:10):
But what I The thing is, this isthe thing, OK, I actually ended
up getting everything I wanted. I just got it in a package that
I didn't expect, right? So I wanted someone smart.
I wanted someone funny. I wanted someone sophisticated.
But I thought I needed someone who is university educated,
someone who made X amount of money, someone who lived in a
(27:31):
certain place, someone I thought, I thought I needed this
criteria to get the smart, the funny that they.
And when I started being a little bit more open minded and
I met my husband, I like becausehe didn't take a lot of those
boxes in the past, I would have gone on, No, no, no, he's not,
(27:52):
he's not right for me. Whereas then I was starting to
be a little bit more open minded.
And when I got to know him, I found out he was all those
things. He was all those things.
He just didn't take all the check boxes that I thought
needed to be checked to get the smart, the funny, the
sophisticated. And so that's why I'm such a big
(28:12):
believer in just getting to knowsomeone just a bit better.
I mean, obviously you don't keepgetting to know someone if they
treat you badly or you just findthem terribly boring or you're
just not feeling or whatever. But I think when you're doing
online dating, people cut peopleoff way too soon that they say 1
(28:33):
little thing or they do 1 littlething or they post a picture
that you don't like or they whatever.
They're, there's a little subtle, some criteria thing and
you and you're like, Nah, they're gone.
And I think that's a, a mistake.And I think that if you could
just get to know people just a little bit more before you
decide they're not for you, you're going to find someone a
(28:54):
lot quicker. That's with online dating.
But you were talking about technology more broadly, like
social media. Look, let's carry on from that
point that you were just just talking about there around being
kind of pleasantly surprised. You know, when when you you kind
of get to see aspects of somebody that aren't aren't kind
of visible immediately just on the point of what's at the
(29:16):
surface and what you can see. You know, you can disregard
someone very quickly if you're just if you're just kind of
looking at that top level staff,I'm not getting, you know, this
person doesn't have exactly everything that's on my
checklist, etcetera, etcetera. So you're not really invested
much time or emotion into this person at all.
(29:36):
And so you don't feel possibly that they're worth that time.
And, and this this leads me on to my question.
So you've previously spoken about dating a disrespect.
How much of this is tied into just natural human behaviour?
And how much of it do you think is a byproduct of the way that
(29:57):
this technology works and the way that people use it?
I mean, obviously I, I think it's a bit of both, like, you
know, it's the whole nature and nurture thing.
I think technology can bring outthe best and the worst in
people. And we have become a very
instant gratification, minimal patients culture.
But at the same time, you need to stop and appreciate the
(30:21):
unprecedented access to finding the love of your life that this
top technology has created. And so I think it's AI think
it's a little bit of both. People are always looking for
ways to be more time efficient. And so they think that
dismissing someone quickly is saving time.
But it's not saving time if you're going from one person to
(30:44):
the next person to the next person and never finding anyone.
So if you put a little bit more and not, not a lot, just a
little bit more time upfront before you move on from someone,
you're probably going to find someone a lot quicker because
you'll find that the person thatyou were like, I don't know if
I'm that interested. We, when you get to know them
(31:05):
just a little bit more and a little bit more, and especially
as you see how they treat you and you go, oh, wow, they're,
you know, they're a really good listener or they're really
thoughtful, or they always keep their promises or they're fun,
fun to be with. If you dismiss them early,
you're never going to get to know any of those things.
Yeah. And it sounds like that, that,
you know, everything that you said, and we mentioned it a
(31:26):
couple of minutes ago, as well as this kind of instant
gratification culture is actually user behaviour that is
potentially driving so much of this dissatisfaction with this
world. And that leads me, I guess, to
my next point, which is say, saythere's, there's people now who
are in their early 20's, the waythat they see the way that
millennials would have used something like Facebook and,
(31:49):
and, you know, putting everything out there forever.
They, they just find it so cringe and would not dream of
putting that much stuff online because, you know, I think that
they've had the advantage of growing up into the world where
they can see that one mistake or, you know, something you do
wrong or say wrong on video has could potentially have serious
(32:11):
consequences. So they're, they're naturally
way more wary of, of the technology.
And I, you know, a separate issue is I think that it's, it's
affecting the way that they interact with each other in the
real world. But are people of younger ages
approaching online dating and relationships differently to,
say, people 10 years ago or 20 years ago?
(32:32):
Look, I I'll have to be honest and say I'm not an expert on Gen
Z, but from what I can gather, Ithink that they really take all
this technology for granted. I, I, I think they romanticise
what dating was like before online dating and it's not as
(32:52):
great as they think it is. I was, I was there, I was there,
I did it. It wasn't that great, right?
You, you didn't necessarily get treated any better.
It wasn't necessarily easier to find someone.
And especially after a certain age, like once school and
(33:13):
parties and travel and everything has kind of Pete it
out and your friends have pairedup and they're getting engaged
and they're moving in together and they're, you know, if you're
left single, you're just not meeting a lot of people anymore.
And that's when I started doing online dating when I was 27.
But I think that they take it for granted and they they have
(33:35):
contempt for it. Yeah, right.
They just think that it's like, ruin the world and ruin dating.
And it's not that extreme. I think they should be grateful
for it. I think it can be a very useful
tool if you use it effectively. But I also think that when
you're younger, you probably don't need it quite as much.
Yeah, no, totally. And I think that you, you touch
(33:57):
on something there which was as we all know when you are
younger, like you've got way less other stuff generally, you
know, going on in your life. You know what I mean, like, but
how many times do you know whether it's yourself or your
friends or whatever, you know, so I can't wait for Friday.
I can't wait for Saturday. It's like the highlight of your
week is like going out. Yes, you know, you deal with the
(34:19):
shit all through the rest of theweek until you get to that that
weekend point and you can deal deal with that.
So it makes sense that as you people grow out of that, they're
almost a bit lost without knowing how, as you said, these
tools can work and actually justpivot the way that they try and
meet someone without, you know, getting shitfaced in in a club
(34:42):
or or something, you know, and everything that comes with that.
But because you are working withpeople who who are potentially
coming into the world of online dating and may feel that it's
it's not working for them or it's a problem, etcetera.
What tactics or strategies wouldyou say help prime people for
success in the world of digital dating and relationships?
(35:03):
The first thing is just having realistic expectations.
I, I have like a 20 step system,but the, and, but it's broke
into the three parts and the first part is nailing your
online dating mindset. And then I've got Part 2 is like
nailing your online dating game and then Part 3 is nailing your
offline dating game, but nailingyour online dating mindset in
(35:25):
terms of like we talked about the online dating numbers game.
So, you know, if you expect to get on look at 100 profiles and
go on a date with 50 guys, it's just not, you're not going to
get 50 dates out of 100 profiles.
So just kind of understanding and then also sort of
understanding that online is just a digital version of the
(35:48):
real world. It's the, it would be the same
statistics if you were to walk into a a bar or a party or, or
walk down the street. Yeah.
Just understanding that it's worth giving as many people as
possible a go at the beginning because they will naturally
philtre out as you go through the process.
And, and then not being so pickyabout age and where they live.
(36:12):
And just to allow yourself to bepleasantly surprised and just
just understanding these, these things.
And then a very sort of basic, reasonable screening process so
that they're not running out on coffee dates with every single
guy who asks them on a coffee date, because that can be really
exhausting. And so I, I say, look, just, you
(36:32):
know, swap a few nice messages. If that goes well, you know,
suggests that you have a phone call and lock in like a day and
a time to speak on the phone. And then if that goes well and
he asks you out, go on the date.That can all happen within a
week, within a week, you, you can match, you can swap a few
messages, you can speak on the phone and you can be out on a
(36:55):
date all within seven days. So it's not a long screening
process, but it just means that by the time you end up on a date
with someone, someone has taken a little bit of time to get to
know you and put a little bit ofeffort into you.
And it's amazing how many guys like my clients, guys that
they're dating drop off along that process and they and they,
(37:17):
and they always say, Oh, I'm so glad I didn't end up on a date
with him because it would have been boring or he would have
been not very nice or whatever. And so just little things like
that because you can run yourself ragged going out on a
million coffee dates. You can also be too picky and
you're not going on any dates and not getting to know anybody.
And so it's just learning the whole process.
(37:40):
That would be the first thing isexpectations.
People go into it with unrealistic expectations of what
online dating can do for them. And when they when those
expectations aren't met, they get very frustrated and they
give up. And so that's, that's the first
thing, just understanding the whole process and doing it in a
way that feels as effortless as possible.
(38:03):
I mean, obviously dating takes effort, but it shouldn't make
you miserable. If it's making you miserable,
you're doing something wrong. Yeah, that's, there's a few, few
themes that that are coming up through all of that.
And it's, you know, one that I keep thinking is that, you know,
the more things change, the morethey stay the same, which is our
basic kind of human needs and wants aren't changing.
(38:27):
It's almost just that the numbers game feels like you're
fighting through so much more because you're disregarding
everybody. Whereas you said something there
a couple of minutes ago that youalmost need to flip that numbers
game and cast the net wide and let the natural philtre do its
thing. So this.
Yeah, You know, it sounds like alot of people claiming that, you
(38:51):
know, the Internet and technology has ruined dating are
actually partly their own worst enemy, by the way, that they're
using it rather than strategically like a tool, as as
you've been saying. But for those people you know
who might be feeling overwhelmedor burnt out by their experience
with dating in this digital world, what would you say is the
(39:14):
most instantly actionable piece of advice that you would give
them to change their mindset andand get back into it positively?
Look, take a break, just don't take too long a break.
So take a take a month off, you know, take a month off.
Just don't take 6 to 12 months off.
(39:35):
You, you don't need 6 to 12 months to get over a bad date.
You know, like I see it. Oh man, I see it on social media
all the time. You know, these girls will get
on and tell this long rant aboutthis guy.
And I'm, I'm thinking it's just one guy.
It's just one guy. Like the next guy that you meet
(39:56):
online could be really nice. I'm like, don't let this one guy
ruin it for you, or don't even let a handful of guys ruin it
for you. And they, you know, they sort of
think you know, and then you'll see all these comments
underneath. This is why I don't do online
datings. Like really, This is why this
one guy has ruined all of dating.
For you. Yeah, Yeah, it's kind of.
(40:16):
I can. I can imagine there's something
in that, you know, the whole misery loves company thing.
Oh, like, I'm sure. Absolutely.
That is probably that is really one of the most toxic things.
Yeah, you know, I can imagine. Moment it's almost become it's
uncool to be optimistic. It it is absolutely a misery
loves company cesspit where everyone is just in there,
(40:40):
especially women bitching and moaning about men and dating and
it's all awful. I'm never going to find someone
and I've decided to be alone andblah, blah, blah.
And it's just like it's, it's really, it's really sad.
And it's like you have got yearsand decades ahead of you.
Like don't spend it like. In negativity.
(41:03):
Yeah, in that in that negative mindset, yeah, it's a real
shame. And it's and if you jumped into
the one of those comments and said something positive about
dating, you would get destroyed.Really.
That sounds awful. Yeah.
It's like real crabs in a bucketstuff.
Yeah, That's that's God, that's so interesting.
(41:25):
And that makes so much sense that everybody would have
probably had a bad experience. And the way to kind of
commiserate and show camaraderieis by saying, yeah, I've had a
bad experience too. And then maybe overplaying how
bad it was of who's had the worst dating experience and just
kind of becomes this mentally self fulfilling prophecy.
(41:48):
Yeah, well, it's just kind of, Ithink it's letting the bad guys
win. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why would you let these, you know, a holes ruin your entire
love life? Like don't let them like rise
above it. Like, of course, look, everybody
needs to, you know, sort of download every now and then.
(42:10):
And you know, there's nothing wrong with having a, a whinge to
your girlfriends or you know, orsharing a bad experience or
whatever. But it's when you let that one
bad experience or a few bad experiences like ruin your
entire romantic future and you decide that I'm not never dating
again or I hate all men or whatever, that that's when I, I
(42:31):
think it's really sad and unfortunate.
And life isn't short. Life is long and there are life
is long and there are many yearsand decades.
And I don't think that you should let a few bad apples or
even more than a few bad apples spoil the bunch.
I mean, I have seen people pick themselves up and dust
(42:55):
themselves off and find love again against all odds.
And I just have so much admiration for them.
My have got a funny story. My husband's aunt lost her
husband when she was in her late70s.
And when she was 80, she got remarried.
(43:18):
And she was with that husband for 12 years until he passed
away when she was 9212 years. Yeah. 12 years.
And you would think that like at80, all of that is over.
No, she had a whole 12 year relationship with someone after
the age of 80 and I what? A great story.
(43:39):
You're not. You're not gone until you're
gone. Yeah, look, and I think that
that's that's such a good way ofof looking at it.
And it seems like that for all the talk of how, you know, the
Internet has ruined dating for so many people, a lot of it, as
you said, have just can kind of come down to two keywords, which
(44:00):
is perseverance and positivity. And I'm sure that if you are
persevering and positive, like attracts like.
And I guess that's what everybody's going to want.
Thanks so much for that, Ellie. What's on the horizon for you
and where can people follow whatyou're up to?
OK well my website is your dating bestie.com I have a free
(44:23):
training. It's a 20 minute video.
It's called empowered AF. How to find Mr. Right without
having to change yourself, loweryour standards or waste your
time. I have a podcast called the your
dating bestie podcast. I also turn each episode into an
article on medium and sub stack.And if you just Google my name,
(44:44):
Ellie Klein E double Y Klein is Klein just like Calvin Klein
underwear. I'm proud of that.
You can find me or just you can search your dating bestie on,
you know, Instagram and medium sub stack and podcasts and
you'll find me. Awesome, Ali.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much Gareth, great
(45:05):
chat. For more info on what we've
discussed today, check out the show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you cansubscribe to Ruined by the
Internet on your favourite podcast app and help spread the
word by sharing this episode or leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next time.
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