August 31, 2025 • 43 mins
It was once a very human-centric process, but for so many of us, the internet has transformed looking for work into an automated, opaque, and intensely competitive digital gauntlet.
To help us unpack what’s going on, we’re joined by Edan Haddock, Global Head of Talent and People Experience at Movember.
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/edan-haddock-total-talent/id1833735442
00:00 The Evolution of Job Hunting in the Digital Age
03:02 The Impact of Technology on Recruitment
06:03 The Human Connection in Virtual Interviews
08:50 Navigating the Job Application Process
11:43 The Role of AI in Recruitment
14:58 Addressing Bias and Ethics in AI Hiring
17:52 The Future of Recruitment: Human-Centric Approaches
21:08 Strategies for Candidates and Employers
23:46 The Importance of Personalisation in Applications
26:52 The Balance of AI and Human Interaction
29:41 Looking Ahead: The Future of Job Searches
32:54 Final Thoughts and Future Directions
Let us know what else you’d like us to look into, or just say hello at https://www.ruinedbytheinternet.com/
job hunting, recruitment, technology, AI, human connection, application process, bias, ethics, future of work, personalisation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Ruined by the Internet.
I'm Gareth King. Today we're asking, has the
Internet ruined the job hunt? It was once a very human centric
process, but for so many of us, the Internet has transformed
looking for work into an automated, opaque and intensely
competitive digital gauntlet. To help us unpack what's going
on, we're joined by Eden Haddock, Global Head of Talent
and People Experience at Movember.
(00:26):
Eden, thanks so much for joiningus and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much Gareth. It's it's great to be here,
particularly on such a beautifulsunny day.
Yeah, it's lovely outside today,but before we get into it, can
you just tell us a bit about thework that you do and the journey
that led you to this point? Well, the work I do at the
moment, I look after global talent for Movember and that's
(00:47):
total talent. So that is hiring externals but
also developing our people internally.
And Movember's just such a huge movement.
It's a lot bigger than people realise and a lot more complex.
So I recruit in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United States,
United Kingdom, Ireland. So I'm basically 24/7 jet lagged
(01:12):
to be honest, Gareth and. A lot.
A lot on your place. Around the globe, yeah.
And the the exciting thing abouta role like mine at Movember is,
you know, people think Movember and they think the really
creative fundraising movement that was born out of two two
lads having, you know, having a beer in the pub, right.
And raising funds for a family member that was impacted by by
(01:33):
cancer. But you know, there, it's all of
that. It is a fundraising charity and
you know, it's a significant onewith global reach.
But we actually fund our own research programmes, our own
clinical research programmes. We have an Institute of Men's
Health, the November Institute of Men's Health that, you know,
they do all sorts of things. We're tackling toxic
masculinities, we're tackling indigenous health, we're
(01:59):
tackling health literacy in young men.
I mean, it's, it's, there are 70different programmes that we run
throughout the world. And, you know, being able to see
the impact of the work that I dofrom the talent that I bring in
and, and seeing how they're really making a difference in
men's health on a global scale is, is really exciting.
But then on the other hand, I'llhire a really creative marketer
(02:19):
that'll do a, you know, kick assmarketing campaign around our
big fundraising in terms it's really creative and edgy and out
there there. And so it's a really interesting
space I work in. Yeah, yeah.
So obviously November's, you know, come a long way since it's
it's early days. How many, how many staff you
know combined around the world does November have?
Yeah. And look, we deliberately
(02:41):
operate lean right, because the the the funds that we raise from
folks like us growing moustachesor you know, people doing move
for November challenges, we wantto make sure that that, that
funding is going to the programmes, right.
So we have to operate lean and we're all, we're all very
dedicated, busy individuals, butthere are 350 of us scattered
around the globe. So yeah, cool.
(03:02):
That's actually huge. When you consider, as I said,
something that was born, you know, 20 years ago by two two
guys having an idea in a pub, it's just extraordinary.
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess you know, with with
such a large remit as well and, and you know, you being, you
know, someone that is passionatearound innovation in in talent
(03:24):
and recruitment. What would you say is the most
surprising change you've seen inthe industry because of
technology? Because of technology
specifically, look, there are a lot, I mean, we're in the most
exciting phase at the moment, which which is, you know, the AI
revolution, right, unsurprisingly.
But what, what I think is reallysurprising around that is as
professionals in, in talent acquisition and talent
(03:47):
management, I think people aren't realising how rapidly our
roles are changing. And I don't think people are
embracing the creativity around that at the moment.
And I've been on that journey aswell.
But I, I think that's been that,that this is the time, this is
the exciting time. But I think back, I mean, I was
still printing resumes and putting them into a yellow
(04:08):
Manila folder when I started in this game, right?
And you know, then you had COVIDwhere I, I pre COVID, I never
thought that I would be comfortable hiring someone that
I've interviewed through a digital platform form.
And you know, even back then, itwas kind of like you would tee
up a Skype if someone was overseas and you know, then
(04:29):
you'd be like, oh, but we're going to need to fly them over
because we need to meet them in person.
We can't hire someone who's onlymet digitally.
So like these changes happen that are environmental changes.
But you know, again, I think thetechnology advancements that we
had to catch up with digitization during COVID has
really, really changed the way we work.
And losing that human connectionin person means we have have to
(04:51):
amplify the human connection through digital.
Likewise with AI. Yeah, absolutely.
And and on that point around dialling up the human connection
through digital, we know that everyone kind of was thrown into
that digital way of communicating by by necessity
during COVID and it's stuck around to varying degrees.
But what would you say the most significant advantages and even
(05:14):
disadvantages that that approachmight bring when it comes to
matching the right candidate with the right role?
Yeah. Look, I think, I think we give
more power to the candidate to be able to engage with us in a
way that is right for them. I, I, I think back in the formal
interview panel days, I mean, that was intimidating.
(05:36):
I mean, did did you ever enjoy going to a job interview?
Look, I think, I think I've donea panel one with like 3 people
once and that's not even a lot compared to stories I've, I've
heard and read from other people.
And I just felt wild, you know, I felt I was being really
judged. So I can imagine that, you know,
as that grows at scale and, and you know, say maybe people are
even doing that online with evenmore people, you, you also lose
(05:59):
those nuances that you obviouslyget in the room.
So you kind of got to judge by the tiny little square that you
can see on your screen, which I guess would make it even harder.
Yeah. And, and look, we're, we're
being invited into people's homes rather than inviting them
into our environment and our office.
And I think there's something really meaningful in that.
And I think there's something really powerful in that.
(06:20):
Like I'm, I'm talking to you nowand I absolutely love the
aeroplane lamp that you've got in the background.
And I love the artwork that I can see on your bookshelf.
I, I can't because you've got your blur on.
I can't see what the books are. But you know, I'm curious about
that because that's going to give me a little bit of insight
into you and we can form a really great human connection.
And I think when it comes to interviews, being invited into
(06:42):
someone's home is the most intimate thing a candidate can
do. And it shifts that power.
It used to be the power of this is our environment and we're
inviting you in. And, and you had to show up and
you had to in some ways lose your authenticity because, you
know, I, I worked in fin services pre COVID and it was,
(07:02):
you know, it was suits and ties,right?
It was all very rigid and very formal, but the intimacy of
being in someone's home environment immediately helps
you relax. It helps me get to know you a
little bit more. But I just, I just think there
is that beauty in the warmth that comes with that.
And, and, and you know, we don'tthink about these things like
(07:26):
you, you possibly haven't thought about that.
I don't think about that overly,but I know in my mind that it's
there. Yeah, no, that's, that's such a
good point around the intimacy of getting a peek into someones
environment. You know, I remember I saw
something a couple of weeks ago,just it's just reminded me of
it. And it was, it was somebody
talking about if they were interviewing a candidate and
(07:47):
they saw a rubbish bin or something in the shot, you know,
like stuff that you'd have in everybody's house.
Yeah, like that's a disqualifier.
So it's kind of, I don't know, everyone must have their own
little system of of judgement. But that picture you're pointing
out behind me is actually my my fiance got got me that at
Christmas and it's like this Google map kind of artwork with
(08:09):
the pin dropped on where we wenton our first date.
How amazing. So it's quite, it's quite sweet.
And see, this is the this is theconversation.
And, and it's particularly important at Movember, these
these human conversations is where, as I said, the power play
doesn't exist anymore and I can get to know the real you.
And that is so important for ourculture, right?
(08:29):
Like, yeah, totally. Rather than being so stiff and
formal and you know, ironically,we're all putting, you know,
background philtres on now and you know, that's the as well.
But still you're in your environment and you're
comfortable and you're safe. I think that's safety is what we
need to, you know, be really mindful of you're able to to be
(08:50):
yourself and, and, and you're not acting and you're not posing
because because you're safe. Yeah, that's a, that's a good
point there around being yourself and relaxed versus,
say, putting on that show that you might feel obliged to if you
were called into an in person interview somewhere.
And never mind if there's even more people.
You kind of almost feel like you've got to transform yourself
(09:12):
into that room rather than than letting yourself shine through.
You know, I get it's probably quite an intimidating thing for
for a lot of people if that's not something that you're used
to doing all the time. That said, we're talking around
how easy it is now to find candidates or roles online,
which is obviously bought this gigantic amount of scale and
opportunity as well. A lot of the time that we're
(09:34):
seeing, whether it's job seekersor even talent, people like
yourself, it's kind of this frustration around some of these
tools that built for efficiency on on everybody's regard and
everyone's kind of feeling them out still like what's the best
way to optimise them from from either end?
If there's, you know, job seekers that are potentially
(09:55):
frustrated at this process that we're all learning how best to
utilise it. If they're frustrated, do you
think it's because they might feel ignored due to the sheer
scale of opportunity that technology and the Internet
provides everybody? So there's obviously such a huge
amount of applicants for any role.
Or do you think that some of that could come down to trying
(10:16):
to beat that system by this kindof low effort numbers game
approach to applications? How will this play out do you
think? This is how will it play out?
This is such a big question, Gareth.
I'm just trying to trying to work out where to start because
you know, we could, we could talk for a couple of hours on
this one. I look, ease of application, I
(10:38):
suppose is, is where we start, which leads to volume of
applications and and I kind of rebel against that a little bit,
to be honest. Gareth, I, I hear a lot of
commentary in my industry peoplesaying cover letters are dead.
I'm on the other end of the scale, you know, I think the
drag and drop and post and there's actually, you know, you
(11:00):
may have heard on your audience may have heard.
I mean, there are AI tools that you could pass your resume over
to and it will do your job applications for you.
And just overnight while you're sleeping, submit your
application to 20 different organisations, 200 different
organisations, right? There's, there's that kind of
that technology on the candidateside that, that, that is
becoming more and more prevalent.
(11:21):
I, I think from my perspective, I, I, I want to make a job
application an effort, but I want to do it in a fun way.
So I, I, you know, there are things that I have already
introduced. Gareth, if you were to apply for
a position with Movember, you'll, you'll pop in a Spotify
(11:41):
link for your favourite song, right?
And when I'm looking over your CVI can play your favourite
song. It's all embedded in my system
and it's embedded in your application.
You've got optional questions where you can talk about, you
know, a, a travel destination you want to go to.
You can talk about your most prized possession.
You can talk about your family, your pets, all of that.
(12:01):
You know, you've got all of thatand you control the question and
the answer you it's not a seriesof questions that I ask you.
So there's there's that element of play in there.
And, and I think you know that that kind of experience is going
to amplify the human experience once again.
And and it gives me an environment for you to be able
to again be authentic, because Ican start that conversation by
(12:24):
saying, Hey, that was a tune your selected drive like love
Tina Turner as well. Like, hey, did you ever get to
see alive? You know right, Like and then
already your guards down. Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I think that kind of human connection is always the best
icebreaker for for any, whether it's a a job application or just
(12:44):
a conversation anywhere, findingthat common cause is, is the
best way to do it. And it feels like there is a
general vibe at the moment that that is kind of being lost as
everyone figures out how the least amount of work we can put
in to try and beat this technology.
Yeah. Might be so it's it's very, very
good to hear even like your suggestion of the Spotify track
(13:07):
or you know, just to connect like that, which again will make
everything so much more human and easy for everybody.
So that was actually one of my next questions I was going to
ask you. One of the misconceptions is
that there isn't much of a humantouch during this, this, whether
it's we call it the employment pipeline at scale currently,
(13:28):
beyond people thinking that they're just a a data point or
or a number in a system, what would you say the other
misconceptions that people mighthave?
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I think there is a big
shift going on at the moment. And I think, you know, on
reflection, there was a time where I think HR and and talent
professionals were trying to make the application process as
(13:49):
simplified as possible. Drag and drop fire it off low
effort, do it on the train, do it within 30 seconds, done and
dusted. Because people were trying to
get more and more people into the funnel.
Because particularly in industries like technology where
it was almost impossible possible a few years ago to find
software engineers and beyond, right.
(14:11):
Like like within that techie space, I think you know,
everyone was focused on a talentcrunch and they tried to make
things as simplified as humanly possible.
So what what that has been done is a lot of that process and
tech and that legacy of that time is still in play and still
exists. But you know, I, I think trying
(14:34):
to beat these systems is not theway to go by firing off as many
applications as possible. And I know we'll probably talk
about the selection process fromsomeone on on my side throughout
this conversation, but it's not a numbers game.
I, I think from my perspective with Movember, I want to hear
your story and I want to hear why you want to come and do good
(14:57):
with Movember, right? Why do you want to work for
Movember and do good in the world?
And people are sharing their personal connections, whether
that's I, I lost a close friend to mental illness, so my father
is undergoing treatment for prostate cancer or you know
what? Whatever it is, right?
Like we've all got a connection to men's health in some way,
(15:18):
regardless of whether we're a man or not.
So I want to hear those stories,right?
I want to hear the why behind the application.
So you need to be deliberate. Yeah.
In your application, instead of this, spray and pray.
Spray and pray. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Would you say that that I guess that want from someone in your
position, is that common? How much of that is born out of
(15:39):
maybe the size of the organisation?
Like if you're in a gigantic corporate, I can imagine it
would be very different than something as worthy as Movember.
Look, I think if you were to layer it up to your chief people
officer, to your C-Suite values,purpose, impact, that's what
(16:00):
they want. I, I think when you get deeper,
particularly into the large enterprise organisations, when
you know, when you're talking thousands and thousands of
employees, 10s of thousands of employees, as you go further
down the layer, I think naturally a lot of that
connection is lost. So would, you know, a
(16:20):
recruitment team of 100 can, canwe hand on heart say that every
single one of those hundred people are connected to the
organisation strategy, have thatreally strong focus on, on
values potentially, potentially not right.
Like, you know, there, there canbe a breakdown in that.
But I think at the heart of the industry that that I'm in and I,
(16:42):
I, I mean, we get into this field because we want to help
people. At the end of the day, we want
to help people gain meaningful employment.
And there's a buzz to that. And when we do place people in
employment, we celebrate with them, and that's why we do what
we do. This ain't an easy job.
Yeah, look. Really not.
I hear that a lot. You know, especially at the
(17:03):
moment, like we've said, the sheer scale of everything that
that is how everything's operating due to the the
opportunity, whether it's global, you know, you've got
people firing things off into countries that they're not even
in and just see what happens. And I can imagine that really
clogs up the system if it's not utilised efficiently.
(17:23):
But Speaking of utilising it efficiently, how do those
applicant tracking systems and even other AI tools Philtre
candidates efficiently and effectively to help you get the
right type of person that you'relooking for, for the role?
Yeah. And this is a bit of a myth
Buster for you here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look, they're not ranked from when you apply some that do a
(17:45):
little bit of that, they'll kindof do a bit of a skills match.
There was this trend going on that I didn't quite get into
when it came to skills based hiring.
I think it's kind of it's dying a bit of a slow death to be
honest, but it was a big buzz inour industry and I never quite
got it. And that was sort of skills
matching from your CV to skills within the organisation and and
(18:07):
matching it that way. There's, there's a lot more to
it by the way, but just just simplifying it right, Just.
On that, would you say that skills based matching if if
someone's taking the approach ofsay finding the keywords in the
job description and then weavingthose into their CV to make
themselves the perfect candidateis that doesn't that approach
(18:28):
doesn't? Work doesn't work now, now, now
look and and I'll, I'll, I'll doa pro skills argument.
Not that I am pro skills hiring.I've I'm, I'm kind of in the
middle. It's like if it works for your
organisation, it works for your organisation, right?
But you know that there needs tobe an assessment for that to be
the reality, right? Just someone saying that they've
got a skill. So what?
(18:49):
Yeah, yeah, of course. Right, like so, and, and then
there, there are platforms that that do that, you know, there,
there are platforms that specialised in candidate
assessment and there are a lot of them, whether it's, you know,
even back in the day with psychometrics, right?
Which, which still exist, but, or there's competency based
skills platforms where it will match your skills to, to roles
(19:09):
and it will rank you because it's, you know, it's, it's, it's
a test, right? It's got a result, it's got an
outcome. It will rank your percentage
based on someone else and then the ATS will have you sitting
higher than another candidate. But that's past the application
stage. What, what I have at application
stage in terms of AI is that I've, I've got Copilot just
(19:30):
basically summarising your CV into a short and succinct bullet
point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point.
So when I'm looking through CVS and I get hundreds of them for
each role, I'm able to look at areally short, sharp, snappy
summary of your experience. And then for me, I can dive in.
I can play your Spotify song, I can learn about what kind of
(19:51):
pizza topping you like. And I can and, and and I can
then, you know, I can read your CV from that point, right?
Yeah, that's there. But, but where the power is for
me is I have a free text, call it a cover letter, a free text
where people tell me about the why and, and why they want to
come and do this work. Regardless of what you're doing
(20:12):
at Movember, you are making an impact for Men's Health and for
us. All of us at November, we, we,
we want to know because you, again, it ain't an easy job like
we're dealing with, with heavy topics.
We have a lot of fun and we've got a really great culture and
we make sure we've got that balance.
But you know, you, you need to have that want to make a
(20:33):
difference and a want to change the world we work in.
I work in five different time zones, right?
Like it's, it's long days and, you know, every day I'm dealing
with topics like cancer, mental health, you know, suicides, that
these are heavy things we talk about that in a really real way.
And, and we're very edgy in the way we communicate externally.
(20:56):
But you know, I'd, I have to read people's stories around
those topics every day. So I I need to be really
dedicated to the cause and making that change, otherwise
that that that would be a reallyhard environment to work in, I
feel. Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I can imagine that as you touch on a few minutes ago, just
(21:18):
that cover letter explaining whyyou've got that interest in that
particular role or that particular organisation.
Like you know, me personally, I'm quite a big believer in the
value of a cover letter. I don't know if it's because
I'm, I'm a bit older or, or whatever, but I think that when
you look at the the application process, whatever it is, that's
where you've kind of got the space to actually tell a bit of
(21:40):
a story without, you know, trying to cram whatever you want
into your CV or your or your resume.
So that's interesting to hear that that you've got Co pilot
kind of summarising it, you know, putting the soundtrack on
and and then that's how it's actually presented to you,
because I think that one of the perceptions out in the market at
(22:02):
the moment is that it's almost this AI versus AI arms race.
It's like this huge blockage from either end or everybody's
end. And, you know, I remember kind
of reading about how you've got people using AI to write their
applications to try and be an AIsystem, which will, will, will
use AI to judge this person. And so it's kind of this
(22:24):
ecosystem, the, or the perception of it is, is it's
just AI tools trying to fight against each other.
So it's really nice to hear there is actually a human in
there and how these things are being used.
For sure, yeah. But that said, there's a bit of
talk at the moment around these kind of ethical implications of
(22:46):
AI screening, you know, regarding potential biases that
might disadvantage certain groups.
Firstly, is this perception real?
And if so, how are these mitigated?
For sure. And and I'll give you a live
example. I mean, I've, I've introduced an
an AI agent, which is a bit of amini me.
His name is Joel and, and he, he, he will phone screen you.
(23:09):
It's, it's a genetic AI and he'll have a conversation with
you for 20 to 30 minutes and he will probe and you'll be able to
ask him questions. He'll ask you questions.
And it, it is pretty amazing technology right now.
Is that ethical? I say yes.
The reason being, and there are a number of reasons and, and
that there are a number of reasons why I've introduced
this. So we're we're talking about the
(23:31):
application process earlier and hyper personalising that and
people sharing their connection to the work that we do at
Movember 203, hundred of them come through the funnel.
I'm a human being that can probably only speak to for 20
minutes, 8 to 10 of them a day. And then I've got everything
else going on. You know, that's, that's, that's
(23:52):
not my only job, right? Like I look after talent and
people experience. So it's, you know, end to end
employee life cycle. What this does is I can then
have everyone and give everyone the opportunity, if you've
applied for a role with November, to have that
opportunity to put your best foot forward and to go beyond
(24:15):
the, the CV and demonstrate yourcapabilities, your potential,
your skills. Again, you know, I mean, they,
they come into play. I don't, you know, skills based
hirings are another scenario, but but you know, being able to
demonstrate your experience, your capabilities, your future
potential, what you're looking for, your motivations, and to be
able to do that in a, in a conversational manner.
(24:37):
I think that is ethical because I think it does remove bias
because if I can only select 8 to 10 people and I'm not relying
on a tool to rank them because Idon't do that assessment and I
don't do skills based hiring, that there are going to be
biases at played. I mean human beings.
So we have biases whether we know it or not.
(24:58):
And you know, unconscious bias, right?
Like, I mean, there could be, you know, someone bullied me at
high school and you know, you know, they've got.
Got a name? Yeah, same name, right?
Like it can be as simple as that.
And even though I'm saying to myself, well, forget about it,
there's something in the back ofmy head that that is still
niggling away even though I don't know it.
Yeah, yeah. And I think just on that point
(25:19):
around, you know, the agentic tools, I have seen a bit of
discourse where someone might have have said I had to go to a
job interview and it was an AI kind of interviewing me.
And it they've taken it as quitean insult that they're not
getting to speak to a person. But I can imagine that, as you
said, you're so overwhelmed by not only this one position that
(25:43):
might be in question, trying to feel with the right person for
that and everything, anything else.
These tools of course, have beenimplemented for a reason.
So it's quite interesting to seethat there is a, a, a real
necessity to using those tools to make sure that everyone that
wants it can have the same shot.Because it becomes fairer, yeah,
in my view. Now.
(26:03):
Now we all know that there are instances where AI can be
biassed as well. And there's the statistics to
say AI favours female candidates, for example.
And they've, they've, they've tested that and you know that
that's there and there's a slight favouritism towards
female candidates. But I think the key to this is
contextualising it. Like I've, I've got to give the
(26:23):
context as to why I am doing this.
That's, that's I, so people know, I, I want more people to
have an opportunity to, I, I want you to have a shot at this,
right? Like, you know, I want everyone
to be able to put their best foot forward.
That's that's A, but then B, it's give people.
And this is where the ethics come into it.
Everyone's on a different journey with AI.
(26:45):
And then we talk diversity, right?
We have people, neuro diverse that come through that pipeline.
You need to give people the opportunity not only to opt out,
but also to opt in. It's an opt in, opt out.
Which would you choose? You know, do you want to talk to
me on the phone? Do you want to talk to me on
Zoom? Do you want to go through the AI
tool? Now what we're finding, as you
(27:08):
know, we've been rolling this out and we've been rolling it
out for our volume higher. That's where we've kind of
started at that, you know, seasonal staff that come in to
support Movember through throughout, you know, the
campaign, 97% of people opted into the AII.
Don't know whether to get offended by that because I'm a
pretty nice guy, but 97 actuallyposed to to speak to Joel over
(27:30):
me. And I think, OK, there are a few
elements that play with that. I think a lot of it is curiosity
because all of this technology that is advancing so much faster
than our brains can keep up withis pretty fascinating for the
general public. I know I probably would have
chosen the AI tool because I'll be like, Oh my God, how does
this thing work right? So that that may plateau out,
like we may see less and less ofthat as you know, people
(27:52):
actually experience it more often.
But the feedback has been reallypositive as well and really
surprising that they can actually have a conversation and
that they, you know, can do it in their own time again, can do
it in an environment that they feel safe.
They can do it on the beach if they want to, right?
So you know you're you're able to bring your authentic self in
(28:13):
an environment that brings out your best self.
Yeah, that's that's such a good point.
And I think that contradicts so much of the chatter out there at
the moment around what these tools are.
If there is a general perceptionthat they are not dehumanising,
but kind of cold. And it feels like the actual
intention behind them is to makesure that a, everybody has the,
(28:36):
the equal footing and opportunity to, to kind of sell
themselves and get into the role.
But then as you, as you also said, they're giving people
different avenues that they might embrace that work the best
for them. Because as you've alluded to,
some people might deal best speaking to a person, others
might not like that pressure. They might want to be in their
house where they're comfortable.So it is great to hear that
(28:59):
behind and the mystery and and so much of the, I guess the
frustration that there is with this kind of tools at the
moment, the actual output is to give humans the best shot to be
more human. Yeah, we've got to open our
minds with AI because I think somuch of the misconception is
that AI is a productivity tool and it's there to take people's
(29:23):
jobs or to do people's jobs better or it's to save time,
it's to save money, all of that.When we think AI in the
workplace, that's where our mindgoes.
But but it's actually not that that's that's not the primary
purpose, right? It is, you know, it is going to
going to be a result of using AI, right?
You are going to see that, but Idon't think that's the intent.
(29:46):
I think yeah. And, and again, on that point,
it's almost how you implement itbecause, you know, we've all
seen loads of people that might be like, oh, I, I use this tool
and it will read my emails or, you know, just like these low
level tasks, which you could draw the connection there That
I, that, that is an efficiency thing, but it's almost replacing
(30:06):
part of you as the human. Whereas what you've said is if
you use it to kind of augment what you're capable of as a
human, you can kind of become a a superhuman version of
yourself, we'll say now. Yeah, it's, it's like what's
what's the, what's the film, thesubstance, right.
You know, I've, I've, I've injected that and I've had my
(30:26):
little AI guy grow out of my back.
Yeah, yeah, I have to try and find what this job looks.
Like version of me? Yeah.
So it's it's yeah, it is, it is interesting.
Gonna be interesting how that all shakes out because it's this
quite a divergent at the moment around as you said, some people
see it as it's here to replace jobs, do the task.
And I guess if you can only imagine it being used for that
(30:49):
low hanging fruit, that could bea thing.
But if you look at it, what kindof opportunities and
augmentation processes it might bring that, you know, it's a
entirely different kettle of fish, as they say.
And The thing is right, like if you implement AI without a focus
on amplifying human experience on what sits on either side of
that IAI. So for me, you know, this, this
(31:11):
syngentic AI and Joel and this interview, phone interview tool,
if I hadn't elevated the human experience at the front end of
that when you apply for a role and all of the things that we
talk about with Spotify, etcetera that we've already
covered off, right. And then if I don't elevate the
human experience of the human tohuman interview, then that
(31:33):
fails. You know, you've, you, you can't
just lift and shift a tool like that into an existing historical
recruitment process. There has to be a, a, a full
strategy of where am I going to lift the human skills and where
am I going to implement AI And it has to balance.
(31:53):
Yeah, yeah, totally. It kind of went on to a question
I wanted to ask you, which was whether the, you know, there's a
perception that the human touch in recruitment is, is being
lost, But is it a case that it'ssimply shifting where the human
rights occurs in the hiring funnel?
And I think that you've alluded to it there.
That's that's kind of addressingone of these misconceptions out
(32:16):
there at the moment that you're just leaving it all up to to
robots to kind of manage everything.
What would you say after explaining kind of your process,
what would you say in your opinion, are some actionable
strategies that either candidates or employers can use
to cut out a lot of this noise and increase their chances of
finding the right match for the right role?
(32:36):
Yeah, it's oh gosh, there are somany right.
Like where do we start? Do we want to start on on the
candidate side? How to breakthrough Yeah, good
for the noise. I I think personalise
everything. If you're if you're a candidate
listening and identify the employers that you want to work
for have a really good and and you will never not find the
(32:56):
values of an organisation or a purpose without a very quick
search. Plug it in.
You know, there we go. You can plug it into ChatGPT 5
and you'll find it right. You know, I think the hyper
personalisation, regardless of whether that process is hyper
personalised yet, get it in yourcover letter and tailor your CV
for that role, right? The more personal you are.
And let's break down that misconception right now.
(33:18):
The firing off 200 applications using a tool that's just going
to apply for everything. It's not going to work, and
you're more than likely going toget ruled out that way than you
are if you spend a couple of minutes personalising your your
application. And I think just before we go
back to say what strategies for the company, like so much of
what I've seen and and read and been hurt, is someone saying
(33:40):
I've fired off 5000 applicationsusing one of these tools.
I don't personalise anything andI can't get any callbacks or any
interviews. Yeah.
And then, you know, it becomes this negative feedback loop
where you're not getting any response to say 5000.
You may feel it's even worth less effort moving forward when
(34:00):
the solution genuinely try and connect with the person on the
other end of these things as a human and as an, you know,
representative of a of a business or an organisation,
that's where the effort should be.
And it can be silly, right? Like it doesn't need to be, you
know, I believe in couple letters as do you.
We've, we've kind of landed on that as a collective, right?
But I, I, I think, you know, I love ACV where someone wax on a,
(34:24):
you know, a picture of themselves wearing a fake
moustache. I get them all the time, right?
And, and, and they'll be really,really crazy and quirky.
And it's that sense of humour coming through that I know all
this person, they've taken a little bit of effort there and
they don't take themselves too seriously.
And they understand that we're, you know, edgy and we're real.
And that's how we operate. And one of our values is fun.
And they're having fun. And, you know, it can just be
(34:46):
little things like that. Yeah, just to totally show that
you get the organisation, you get it.
Yeah, Yeah. But what could say companies or
people involved in hiring, like what strategies could they
employ to optimise everything? Like if they're potentially
feeling burnt out by this scale,what tactics could they employ
to maybe help themselves sift through that scale?
(35:09):
Look, we are a bloody conservative industry, mate.
Like any talent leader, any HR leader out there, we've got to
get our people embracing creativity and we have to do it
now, OK? Because otherwise, you know,
these machines can take over, right?
They can, right. So, so you, you need to be
(35:30):
creative in terms of what you'redoing or you're going to fall
behind. I think at the moment it starts
small. And I actually learned this
yesterday. I was in an Amazon workshop on
AI. That was a, you know, a
basically AI think group that we've got at Movember that
involves CEO, chief marketing officer, and there's about 10 of
us in there. And, and it was really that
start, start small and scale fast, you know, and, and, and
(35:53):
that's really stuck with me fromyesterday and something that
I've been thinking about a lot today.
And, and, and I think that's what I've, what I've done, you
know, with things like agentic AI with, with how I've hyper
personalised the application experience, there's so much more
I can do with it and I need to scale that quickly or I'm going
to fall behind. So I think what we're going to
(36:13):
see in the future, if organisations don't catch up to
this and start doing that and start being more creative and
thinking differently of what that experience can look like
for applications, they're going to lose because we will get
another talent crunch. And you'll find that talent and
good talent will be going to theorganisations that are doing
(36:33):
that really well. And I'm hoping Movember will be
probably going to be one of those, right.
If, if, if you don't catch up now, if, if you're still using
these outdated technologies, these outdated systems, if
you're still ghosting candidates, if you're still just
treating this as a numbers game,you're going to lose because
(36:54):
this is advancing way too quickly.
If you're not lifting and elevating the human side of what
we do in recruitment and selection, even 12 months from
now, things are going to look very differently.
That that's a great segue into into my next question, which was
going to be looking forward. What might the, you know, the
candidate search or the job search of the future potentially
(37:15):
look like in your opinion? I think it's it's going to be
very deep consultative like I think that connection is going
to be even stronger. I think roles like mine are
going to become more of a careerand life coach, in all honesty.
OK. I think we we will get to the
point the true value and where what's keeping me up at night.
(37:35):
And I'll tell you what's keepingme up at night is that, you
know, people are sharing those really powerful stories with me.
They're putting effort into their applications.
I'm inviting more and more people into the funnel to
experience Movember and to put their best foot forward.
And then what? Right.
It's the end, then what? So really if I had the time, if
(37:56):
I can automate as much as I can in that front end and spend as
much time as I can in the and then what?
I think that's where the power is going to be because I think
that expectation is going to become greater and greater.
It's not just a quick, short, sharp feedback.
Sorry you've been unsuccessful, whatever reasons even and a lot
(38:17):
of people don't even give a lot of those reasons, right?
And in fact, the vast majority of applications that come
through will get a thanks, but no thanks in a, in a much nicer
way, obviously, but you know, you know, so, so where does that
put us, right? If we're, if we're doing all of
that at the front end through the process, if we're relying on
automation, people are putting all of that effort in.
(38:37):
What does that feedback loop look like?
You know, we can't go like we all know we can't ghost and
people still do that. And I don't understand why,
because it's not the reason we got into this industry.
So people that are in those roles that are ghosting, it
makes no sense to me because I'm, again, that would keep me
up at night. Would you say that that's simply
born out of scale again, you know, how could you give unique,
(39:00):
unique and and constructive feedback to say 750 applicants
or I know, but. You're right, you're absolutely
right. And you know, talent functions
have been under resourced always, right?
Like let's do more with less. It always has been.
You know, we saw post COVID all the redundancies that happened
in our space. Everyone said, Oh, well, we're
not going to hire for a little while because we we're going
(39:21):
through, you know, economic recovery and we're just gonna
keep our organisations flat. So we'll just boot the talent
team. They're not gonna be recruiting.
And then of course, you know, 12months later they had to build
another recruitment team, of course.
So, you know, I, I think that it's that it's long days, it's
long hours. The traditional way of
recruiting and going through CV by CV by CV is exhausting.
(39:44):
You become tired, you know, consultants become lazy for
that. And our technology just wasn't,
wasn't where it need, needed to be in order to, to personalise
feedback. And yes, it is, it is scale, it
is volume, but it's got a shift and it's going to shift because
the expectations, as I said, if we're expecting applicants to do
(40:06):
more and to share more and for us to form that connection,
everything we're talking about from your aeroplane lamp in the
background earlier, right? Like if you're inviting me into
your home, the least I can do isgive you something that you can
go away. And learn from through that
process and an experience that you'll be able to reflect on and
(40:27):
go, Do you know what? Eden was an absolute legend.
Yeah. I'm going to grow a moustache
this year because that cause andeverything that I learned
through that process, they're doing bloody amazing work.
And I need to be a part of it because I want to change men's
health as well. Right.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that so much of what
you said around utilising less human things to allow for more
(40:48):
human interaction at different stages of the process.
And, and even your point around gets getting a bit more creative
about how people screen candidates and things, which
again, let's that humanity shinethrough.
It sounds like there is still quite a lot of emphasis on the
human side behind everything, which is lovely.
Thanks so much for for all that Eden.
(41:10):
What's on the horizon for you and where can people follow what
you're up to? Yeah, for sure.
Well, always follow me on LinkedIn.
Look horizon for me, like the creative, right?
Like I, you know, I have redesigned our employer brand
and really, you know, and, and alot of that is around the, the
process of the application and really inviting people to come
and do good with us. So I'll be doing a lot of work
(41:32):
around that and a lot of creative work, which is
exciting. So follow the Movember page and,
and we're coming into campaigns.So, you know, you'll be seeing a
lot of content coming from November and it's time to start
planning your moustache or your or your move for November
challenge. I have launched a, a podcast.
So Eden Haddock, total talent, have a search for that on
(41:52):
Spotify or, or Apple. And, and that's really just sort
of me sharing what's going on inmy world.
And people can learn more about what's happening in the, in the
talent space. It's me blathering on for 20
minutes each episode. It's really about what's
happening and I'm using AI to summarise it.
So there you go. It's helping, it's helping me
script it. But yeah, I'm always open to
(42:13):
hearing what's going on. And as candidates like share
more of what's going on, you know, we want to know and we
want to learn. And I think if you go through a
recruitment process and you enjoy components of it, share it
with the recruiter. If there are things that need
improve, share it, right? I survey everyone, Everyone.
You know, I've got since I launched this in in March, I've
(42:34):
got 1300 different responses from candidates and, you know.
Doing something right then? Yeah, right.
But look at, you know, some of it's improvement, right?
Some of it was like, you know, the colour wasn't accessible.
I'm vision impaired and I went shit as I need to fix that
straight away. I didn't even realise.
Right. Like you learn.
You learn along the way. Yeah.
Awesome, Eden, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Thanks mate, it was great. For more info on what we've
(42:58):
discussed today, check out the show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you cansubscribe to Ruined by the
Internet on your favourite podcast app and help spread the
word by sharing this episode or leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next time.
Welcome to Ruined by the Internet.
I'm Gareth King. Today we're asking, has the
Internet ruined the job hunt? It was once a very human centric
process, but for so many of us, the Internet has transformed
looking for work into an automated, opaque and intensely
competitive digital gauntlet. To help us unpack what's going
on, we're joined by Eden Haddock, Global Head of Talent
and People Experience at Movember.
(00:26):
Eden, thanks so much for joiningus and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much Gareth. It's it's great to be here,
particularly on such a beautifulsunny day.
Yeah, it's lovely outside today,but before we get into it, can
you just tell us a bit about thework that you do and the journey
that led you to this point? Well, the work I do at the
moment, I look after global talent for Movember and that's
(00:47):
total talent. So that is hiring externals but
also developing our people internally.
And Movember's just such a huge movement.
It's a lot bigger than people realise and a lot more complex.
So I recruit in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United States,
United Kingdom, Ireland. So I'm basically 24/7 jet lagged
(01:12):
to be honest, Gareth and. A lot.
A lot on your place. Around the globe, yeah.
And the the exciting thing abouta role like mine at Movember is,
you know, people think Movember and they think the really
creative fundraising movement that was born out of two two
lads having, you know, having a beer in the pub, right.
And raising funds for a family member that was impacted by by
(01:33):
cancer. But you know, there, it's all of
that. It is a fundraising charity and
you know, it's a significant onewith global reach.
But we actually fund our own research programmes, our own
clinical research programmes. We have an Institute of Men's
Health, the November Institute of Men's Health that, you know,
they do all sorts of things. We're tackling toxic
masculinities, we're tackling indigenous health, we're
(01:59):
tackling health literacy in young men.
I mean, it's, it's, there are 70different programmes that we run
throughout the world. And, you know, being able to see
the impact of the work that I dofrom the talent that I bring in
and, and seeing how they're really making a difference in
men's health on a global scale is, is really exciting.
But then on the other hand, I'llhire a really creative marketer
(02:19):
that'll do a, you know, kick assmarketing campaign around our
big fundraising in terms it's really creative and edgy and out
there there. And so it's a really interesting
space I work in. Yeah, yeah.
So obviously November's, you know, come a long way since it's
it's early days. How many, how many staff you
know combined around the world does November have?
Yeah. And look, we deliberately
(02:41):
operate lean right, because the the the funds that we raise from
folks like us growing moustachesor you know, people doing move
for November challenges, we wantto make sure that that, that
funding is going to the programmes, right.
So we have to operate lean and we're all, we're all very
dedicated, busy individuals, butthere are 350 of us scattered
around the globe. So yeah, cool.
(03:02):
That's actually huge. When you consider, as I said,
something that was born, you know, 20 years ago by two two
guys having an idea in a pub, it's just extraordinary.
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess you know, with with
such a large remit as well and, and you know, you being, you
know, someone that is passionatearound innovation in in talent
(03:24):
and recruitment. What would you say is the most
surprising change you've seen inthe industry because of
technology? Because of technology
specifically, look, there are a lot, I mean, we're in the most
exciting phase at the moment, which which is, you know, the AI
revolution, right, unsurprisingly.
But what, what I think is reallysurprising around that is as
professionals in, in talent acquisition and talent
(03:47):
management, I think people aren't realising how rapidly our
roles are changing. And I don't think people are
embracing the creativity around that at the moment.
And I've been on that journey aswell.
But I, I think that's been that,that this is the time, this is
the exciting time. But I think back, I mean, I was
still printing resumes and putting them into a yellow
(04:08):
Manila folder when I started in this game, right?
And you know, then you had COVIDwhere I, I pre COVID, I never
thought that I would be comfortable hiring someone that
I've interviewed through a digital platform form.
And you know, even back then, itwas kind of like you would tee
up a Skype if someone was overseas and you know, then
(04:29):
you'd be like, oh, but we're going to need to fly them over
because we need to meet them in person.
We can't hire someone who's onlymet digitally.
So like these changes happen that are environmental changes.
But you know, again, I think thetechnology advancements that we
had to catch up with digitization during COVID has
really, really changed the way we work.
And losing that human connectionin person means we have have to
(04:51):
amplify the human connection through digital.
Likewise with AI. Yeah, absolutely.
And and on that point around dialling up the human connection
through digital, we know that everyone kind of was thrown into
that digital way of communicating by by necessity
during COVID and it's stuck around to varying degrees.
But what would you say the most significant advantages and even
(05:14):
disadvantages that that approachmight bring when it comes to
matching the right candidate with the right role?
Yeah. Look, I think, I think we give
more power to the candidate to be able to engage with us in a
way that is right for them. I, I, I think back in the formal
interview panel days, I mean, that was intimidating.
(05:36):
I mean, did did you ever enjoy going to a job interview?
Look, I think, I think I've donea panel one with like 3 people
once and that's not even a lot compared to stories I've, I've
heard and read from other people.
And I just felt wild, you know, I felt I was being really
judged. So I can imagine that, you know,
as that grows at scale and, and you know, say maybe people are
even doing that online with evenmore people, you, you also lose
(05:59):
those nuances that you obviouslyget in the room.
So you kind of got to judge by the tiny little square that you
can see on your screen, which I guess would make it even harder.
Yeah. And, and look, we're, we're
being invited into people's homes rather than inviting them
into our environment and our office.
And I think there's something really meaningful in that.
And I think there's something really powerful in that.
(06:20):
Like I'm, I'm talking to you nowand I absolutely love the
aeroplane lamp that you've got in the background.
And I love the artwork that I can see on your bookshelf.
I, I can't because you've got your blur on.
I can't see what the books are. But you know, I'm curious about
that because that's going to give me a little bit of insight
into you and we can form a really great human connection.
And I think when it comes to interviews, being invited into
(06:42):
someone's home is the most intimate thing a candidate can
do. And it shifts that power.
It used to be the power of this is our environment and we're
inviting you in. And, and you had to show up and
you had to in some ways lose your authenticity because, you
know, I, I worked in fin services pre COVID and it was,
(07:02):
you know, it was suits and ties,right?
It was all very rigid and very formal, but the intimacy of
being in someone's home environment immediately helps
you relax. It helps me get to know you a
little bit more. But I just, I just think there
is that beauty in the warmth that comes with that.
And, and, and you know, we don'tthink about these things like
(07:26):
you, you possibly haven't thought about that.
I don't think about that overly,but I know in my mind that it's
there. Yeah, no, that's, that's such a
good point around the intimacy of getting a peek into someones
environment. You know, I remember I saw
something a couple of weeks ago,just it's just reminded me of
it. And it was, it was somebody
talking about if they were interviewing a candidate and
(07:47):
they saw a rubbish bin or something in the shot, you know,
like stuff that you'd have in everybody's house.
Yeah, like that's a disqualifier.
So it's kind of, I don't know, everyone must have their own
little system of of judgement. But that picture you're pointing
out behind me is actually my my fiance got got me that at
Christmas and it's like this Google map kind of artwork with
(08:09):
the pin dropped on where we wenton our first date.
How amazing. So it's quite, it's quite sweet.
And see, this is the this is theconversation.
And, and it's particularly important at Movember, these
these human conversations is where, as I said, the power play
doesn't exist anymore and I can get to know the real you.
And that is so important for ourculture, right?
(08:29):
Like, yeah, totally. Rather than being so stiff and
formal and you know, ironically,we're all putting, you know,
background philtres on now and you know, that's the as well.
But still you're in your environment and you're
comfortable and you're safe. I think that's safety is what we
need to, you know, be really mindful of you're able to to be
(08:50):
yourself and, and, and you're not acting and you're not posing
because because you're safe. Yeah, that's a, that's a good
point there around being yourself and relaxed versus,
say, putting on that show that you might feel obliged to if you
were called into an in person interview somewhere.
And never mind if there's even more people.
You kind of almost feel like you've got to transform yourself
(09:12):
into that room rather than than letting yourself shine through.
You know, I get it's probably quite an intimidating thing for
for a lot of people if that's not something that you're used
to doing all the time. That said, we're talking around
how easy it is now to find candidates or roles online,
which is obviously bought this gigantic amount of scale and
opportunity as well. A lot of the time that we're
(09:34):
seeing, whether it's job seekersor even talent, people like
yourself, it's kind of this frustration around some of these
tools that built for efficiency on on everybody's regard and
everyone's kind of feeling them out still like what's the best
way to optimise them from from either end?
If there's, you know, job seekers that are potentially
(09:55):
frustrated at this process that we're all learning how best to
utilise it. If they're frustrated, do you
think it's because they might feel ignored due to the sheer
scale of opportunity that technology and the Internet
provides everybody? So there's obviously such a huge
amount of applicants for any role.
Or do you think that some of that could come down to trying
(10:16):
to beat that system by this kindof low effort numbers game
approach to applications? How will this play out do you
think? This is how will it play out?
This is such a big question, Gareth.
I'm just trying to trying to work out where to start because
you know, we could, we could talk for a couple of hours on
this one. I look, ease of application, I
(10:38):
suppose is, is where we start, which leads to volume of
applications and and I kind of rebel against that a little bit,
to be honest. Gareth, I, I hear a lot of
commentary in my industry peoplesaying cover letters are dead.
I'm on the other end of the scale, you know, I think the
drag and drop and post and there's actually, you know, you
(11:00):
may have heard on your audience may have heard.
I mean, there are AI tools that you could pass your resume over
to and it will do your job applications for you.
And just overnight while you're sleeping, submit your
application to 20 different organisations, 200 different
organisations, right? There's, there's that kind of
that technology on the candidateside that, that, that is
becoming more and more prevalent.
(11:21):
I, I think from my perspective, I, I, I want to make a job
application an effort, but I want to do it in a fun way.
So I, I, you know, there are things that I have already
introduced. Gareth, if you were to apply for
a position with Movember, you'll, you'll pop in a Spotify
(11:41):
link for your favourite song, right?
And when I'm looking over your CVI can play your favourite
song. It's all embedded in my system
and it's embedded in your application.
You've got optional questions where you can talk about, you
know, a, a travel destination you want to go to.
You can talk about your most prized possession.
You can talk about your family, your pets, all of that.
(12:01):
You know, you've got all of thatand you control the question and
the answer you it's not a seriesof questions that I ask you.
So there's there's that element of play in there.
And, and I think you know that that kind of experience is going
to amplify the human experience once again.
And and it gives me an environment for you to be able
to again be authentic, because Ican start that conversation by
(12:24):
saying, Hey, that was a tune your selected drive like love
Tina Turner as well. Like, hey, did you ever get to
see alive? You know right, Like and then
already your guards down. Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I think that kind of human connection is always the best
icebreaker for for any, whether it's a a job application or just
(12:44):
a conversation anywhere, findingthat common cause is, is the
best way to do it. And it feels like there is a
general vibe at the moment that that is kind of being lost as
everyone figures out how the least amount of work we can put
in to try and beat this technology.
Yeah. Might be so it's it's very, very
good to hear even like your suggestion of the Spotify track
(13:07):
or you know, just to connect like that, which again will make
everything so much more human and easy for everybody.
So that was actually one of my next questions I was going to
ask you. One of the misconceptions is
that there isn't much of a humantouch during this, this, whether
it's we call it the employment pipeline at scale currently,
(13:28):
beyond people thinking that they're just a a data point or
or a number in a system, what would you say the other
misconceptions that people mighthave?
Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I think there is a big
shift going on at the moment. And I think, you know, on
reflection, there was a time where I think HR and and talent
professionals were trying to make the application process as
(13:49):
simplified as possible. Drag and drop fire it off low
effort, do it on the train, do it within 30 seconds, done and
dusted. Because people were trying to
get more and more people into the funnel.
Because particularly in industries like technology where
it was almost impossible possible a few years ago to find
software engineers and beyond, right.
(14:11):
Like like within that techie space, I think you know,
everyone was focused on a talentcrunch and they tried to make
things as simplified as humanly possible.
So what what that has been done is a lot of that process and
tech and that legacy of that time is still in play and still
exists. But you know, I, I think trying
(14:34):
to beat these systems is not theway to go by firing off as many
applications as possible. And I know we'll probably talk
about the selection process fromsomeone on on my side throughout
this conversation, but it's not a numbers game.
I, I think from my perspective with Movember, I want to hear
your story and I want to hear why you want to come and do good
(14:57):
with Movember, right? Why do you want to work for
Movember and do good in the world?
And people are sharing their personal connections, whether
that's I, I lost a close friend to mental illness, so my father
is undergoing treatment for prostate cancer or you know
what? Whatever it is, right?
Like we've all got a connection to men's health in some way,
(15:18):
regardless of whether we're a man or not.
So I want to hear those stories,right?
I want to hear the why behind the application.
So you need to be deliberate. Yeah.
In your application, instead of this, spray and pray.
Spray and pray. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Would you say that that I guess that want from someone in your
position, is that common? How much of that is born out of
(15:39):
maybe the size of the organisation?
Like if you're in a gigantic corporate, I can imagine it
would be very different than something as worthy as Movember.
Look, I think if you were to layer it up to your chief people
officer, to your C-Suite values,purpose, impact, that's what
(16:00):
they want. I, I think when you get deeper,
particularly into the large enterprise organisations, when
you know, when you're talking thousands and thousands of
employees, 10s of thousands of employees, as you go further
down the layer, I think naturally a lot of that
connection is lost. So would, you know, a
(16:20):
recruitment team of 100 can, canwe hand on heart say that every
single one of those hundred people are connected to the
organisation strategy, have thatreally strong focus on, on
values potentially, potentially not right.
Like, you know, there, there canbe a breakdown in that.
But I think at the heart of the industry that that I'm in and I,
(16:42):
I, I mean, we get into this field because we want to help
people. At the end of the day, we want
to help people gain meaningful employment.
And there's a buzz to that. And when we do place people in
employment, we celebrate with them, and that's why we do what
we do. This ain't an easy job.
Yeah, look. Really not.
I hear that a lot. You know, especially at the
(17:03):
moment, like we've said, the sheer scale of everything that
that is how everything's operating due to the the
opportunity, whether it's global, you know, you've got
people firing things off into countries that they're not even
in and just see what happens. And I can imagine that really
clogs up the system if it's not utilised efficiently.
(17:23):
But Speaking of utilising it efficiently, how do those
applicant tracking systems and even other AI tools Philtre
candidates efficiently and effectively to help you get the
right type of person that you'relooking for, for the role?
Yeah. And this is a bit of a myth
Buster for you here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look, they're not ranked from when you apply some that do a
(17:45):
little bit of that, they'll kindof do a bit of a skills match.
There was this trend going on that I didn't quite get into
when it came to skills based hiring.
I think it's kind of it's dying a bit of a slow death to be
honest, but it was a big buzz inour industry and I never quite
got it. And that was sort of skills
matching from your CV to skills within the organisation and and
(18:07):
matching it that way. There's, there's a lot more to
it by the way, but just just simplifying it right, Just.
On that, would you say that skills based matching if if
someone's taking the approach ofsay finding the keywords in the
job description and then weavingthose into their CV to make
themselves the perfect candidateis that doesn't that approach
(18:28):
doesn't? Work doesn't work now, now, now
look and and I'll, I'll, I'll doa pro skills argument.
Not that I am pro skills hiring.I've I'm, I'm kind of in the
middle. It's like if it works for your
organisation, it works for your organisation, right?
But you know that there needs tobe an assessment for that to be
the reality, right? Just someone saying that they've
got a skill. So what?
(18:49):
Yeah, yeah, of course. Right, like so, and, and then
there, there are platforms that that do that, you know, there,
there are platforms that specialised in candidate
assessment and there are a lot of them, whether it's, you know,
even back in the day with psychometrics, right?
Which, which still exist, but, or there's competency based
skills platforms where it will match your skills to, to roles
(19:09):
and it will rank you because it's, you know, it's, it's, it's
a test, right? It's got a result, it's got an
outcome. It will rank your percentage
based on someone else and then the ATS will have you sitting
higher than another candidate. But that's past the application
stage. What, what I have at application
stage in terms of AI is that I've, I've got Copilot just
(19:30):
basically summarising your CV into a short and succinct bullet
point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point.
So when I'm looking through CVS and I get hundreds of them for
each role, I'm able to look at areally short, sharp, snappy
summary of your experience. And then for me, I can dive in.
I can play your Spotify song, I can learn about what kind of
(19:51):
pizza topping you like. And I can and, and and I can
then, you know, I can read your CV from that point, right?
Yeah, that's there. But, but where the power is for
me is I have a free text, call it a cover letter, a free text
where people tell me about the why and, and why they want to
come and do this work. Regardless of what you're doing
(20:12):
at Movember, you are making an impact for Men's Health and for
us. All of us at November, we, we,
we want to know because you, again, it ain't an easy job like
we're dealing with, with heavy topics.
We have a lot of fun and we've got a really great culture and
we make sure we've got that balance.
But you know, you, you need to have that want to make a
(20:33):
difference and a want to change the world we work in.
I work in five different time zones, right?
Like it's, it's long days and, you know, every day I'm dealing
with topics like cancer, mental health, you know, suicides, that
these are heavy things we talk about that in a really real way.
And, and we're very edgy in the way we communicate externally.
(20:56):
But you know, I'd, I have to read people's stories around
those topics every day. So I I need to be really
dedicated to the cause and making that change, otherwise
that that that would be a reallyhard environment to work in, I
feel. Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I can imagine that as you touch on a few minutes ago, just
(21:18):
that cover letter explaining whyyou've got that interest in that
particular role or that particular organisation.
Like you know, me personally, I'm quite a big believer in the
value of a cover letter. I don't know if it's because
I'm, I'm a bit older or, or whatever, but I think that when
you look at the the application process, whatever it is, that's
where you've kind of got the space to actually tell a bit of
(21:40):
a story without, you know, trying to cram whatever you want
into your CV or your or your resume.
So that's interesting to hear that that you've got Co pilot
kind of summarising it, you know, putting the soundtrack on
and and then that's how it's actually presented to you,
because I think that one of the perceptions out in the market at
(22:02):
the moment is that it's almost this AI versus AI arms race.
It's like this huge blockage from either end or everybody's
end. And, you know, I remember kind
of reading about how you've got people using AI to write their
applications to try and be an AIsystem, which will, will, will
use AI to judge this person. And so it's kind of this
(22:24):
ecosystem, the, or the perception of it is, is it's
just AI tools trying to fight against each other.
So it's really nice to hear there is actually a human in
there and how these things are being used.
For sure, yeah. But that said, there's a bit of
talk at the moment around these kind of ethical implications of
(22:46):
AI screening, you know, regarding potential biases that
might disadvantage certain groups.
Firstly, is this perception real?
And if so, how are these mitigated?
For sure. And and I'll give you a live
example. I mean, I've, I've introduced an
an AI agent, which is a bit of amini me.
His name is Joel and, and he, he, he will phone screen you.
(23:09):
It's, it's a genetic AI and he'll have a conversation with
you for 20 to 30 minutes and he will probe and you'll be able to
ask him questions. He'll ask you questions.
And it, it is pretty amazing technology right now.
Is that ethical? I say yes.
The reason being, and there are a number of reasons and, and
that there are a number of reasons why I've introduced
this. So we're we're talking about the
(23:31):
application process earlier and hyper personalising that and
people sharing their connection to the work that we do at
Movember 203, hundred of them come through the funnel.
I'm a human being that can probably only speak to for 20
minutes, 8 to 10 of them a day. And then I've got everything
else going on. You know, that's, that's, that's
(23:52):
not my only job, right? Like I look after talent and
people experience. So it's, you know, end to end
employee life cycle. What this does is I can then
have everyone and give everyone the opportunity, if you've
applied for a role with November, to have that
opportunity to put your best foot forward and to go beyond
(24:15):
the, the CV and demonstrate yourcapabilities, your potential,
your skills. Again, you know, I mean, they,
they come into play. I don't, you know, skills based
hirings are another scenario, but but you know, being able to
demonstrate your experience, your capabilities, your future
potential, what you're looking for, your motivations, and to be
able to do that in a, in a conversational manner.
(24:37):
I think that is ethical because I think it does remove bias
because if I can only select 8 to 10 people and I'm not relying
on a tool to rank them because Idon't do that assessment and I
don't do skills based hiring, that there are going to be
biases at played. I mean human beings.
So we have biases whether we know it or not.
(24:58):
And you know, unconscious bias, right?
Like, I mean, there could be, you know, someone bullied me at
high school and you know, you know, they've got.
Got a name? Yeah, same name, right?
Like it can be as simple as that.
And even though I'm saying to myself, well, forget about it,
there's something in the back ofmy head that that is still
niggling away even though I don't know it.
Yeah, yeah. And I think just on that point
(25:19):
around, you know, the agentic tools, I have seen a bit of
discourse where someone might have have said I had to go to a
job interview and it was an AI kind of interviewing me.
And it they've taken it as quitean insult that they're not
getting to speak to a person. But I can imagine that, as you
said, you're so overwhelmed by not only this one position that
(25:43):
might be in question, trying to feel with the right person for
that and everything, anything else.
These tools of course, have beenimplemented for a reason.
So it's quite interesting to seethat there is a, a, a real
necessity to using those tools to make sure that everyone that
wants it can have the same shot.Because it becomes fairer, yeah,
in my view. Now.
(26:03):
Now we all know that there are instances where AI can be
biassed as well. And there's the statistics to
say AI favours female candidates, for example.
And they've, they've, they've tested that and you know that
that's there and there's a slight favouritism towards
female candidates. But I think the key to this is
contextualising it. Like I've, I've got to give the
(26:23):
context as to why I am doing this.
That's, that's I, so people know, I, I want more people to
have an opportunity to, I, I want you to have a shot at this,
right? Like, you know, I want everyone
to be able to put their best foot forward.
That's that's A, but then B, it's give people.
And this is where the ethics come into it.
Everyone's on a different journey with AI.
(26:45):
And then we talk diversity, right?
We have people, neuro diverse that come through that pipeline.
You need to give people the opportunity not only to opt out,
but also to opt in. It's an opt in, opt out.
Which would you choose? You know, do you want to talk to
me on the phone? Do you want to talk to me on
Zoom? Do you want to go through the AI
tool? Now what we're finding, as you
(27:08):
know, we've been rolling this out and we've been rolling it
out for our volume higher. That's where we've kind of
started at that, you know, seasonal staff that come in to
support Movember through throughout, you know, the
campaign, 97% of people opted into the AII.
Don't know whether to get offended by that because I'm a
pretty nice guy, but 97 actuallyposed to to speak to Joel over
(27:30):
me. And I think, OK, there are a few
elements that play with that. I think a lot of it is curiosity
because all of this technology that is advancing so much faster
than our brains can keep up withis pretty fascinating for the
general public. I know I probably would have
chosen the AI tool because I'll be like, Oh my God, how does
this thing work right? So that that may plateau out,
like we may see less and less ofthat as you know, people
(27:52):
actually experience it more often.
But the feedback has been reallypositive as well and really
surprising that they can actually have a conversation and
that they, you know, can do it in their own time again, can do
it in an environment that they feel safe.
They can do it on the beach if they want to, right?
So you know you're you're able to bring your authentic self in
(28:13):
an environment that brings out your best self.
Yeah, that's that's such a good point.
And I think that contradicts so much of the chatter out there at
the moment around what these tools are.
If there is a general perceptionthat they are not dehumanising,
but kind of cold. And it feels like the actual
intention behind them is to makesure that a, everybody has the,
(28:36):
the equal footing and opportunity to, to kind of sell
themselves and get into the role.
But then as you, as you also said, they're giving people
different avenues that they might embrace that work the best
for them. Because as you've alluded to,
some people might deal best speaking to a person, others
might not like that pressure. They might want to be in their
house where they're comfortable.So it is great to hear that
(28:59):
behind and the mystery and and so much of the, I guess the
frustration that there is with this kind of tools at the
moment, the actual output is to give humans the best shot to be
more human. Yeah, we've got to open our
minds with AI because I think somuch of the misconception is
that AI is a productivity tool and it's there to take people's
(29:23):
jobs or to do people's jobs better or it's to save time,
it's to save money, all of that.When we think AI in the
workplace, that's where our mindgoes.
But but it's actually not that that's that's not the primary
purpose, right? It is, you know, it is going to
going to be a result of using AI, right?
You are going to see that, but Idon't think that's the intent.
(29:46):
I think yeah. And, and again, on that point,
it's almost how you implement itbecause, you know, we've all
seen loads of people that might be like, oh, I, I use this tool
and it will read my emails or, you know, just like these low
level tasks, which you could draw the connection there That
I, that, that is an efficiency thing, but it's almost replacing
(30:06):
part of you as the human. Whereas what you've said is if
you use it to kind of augment what you're capable of as a
human, you can kind of become a a superhuman version of
yourself, we'll say now. Yeah, it's, it's like what's
what's the, what's the film, thesubstance, right.
You know, I've, I've, I've injected that and I've had my
(30:26):
little AI guy grow out of my back.
Yeah, yeah, I have to try and find what this job looks.
Like version of me? Yeah.
So it's it's yeah, it is, it is interesting.
Gonna be interesting how that all shakes out because it's this
quite a divergent at the moment around as you said, some people
see it as it's here to replace jobs, do the task.
And I guess if you can only imagine it being used for that
(30:49):
low hanging fruit, that could bea thing.
But if you look at it, what kindof opportunities and
augmentation processes it might bring that, you know, it's a
entirely different kettle of fish, as they say.
And The thing is right, like if you implement AI without a focus
on amplifying human experience on what sits on either side of
that IAI. So for me, you know, this, this
(31:11):
syngentic AI and Joel and this interview, phone interview tool,
if I hadn't elevated the human experience at the front end of
that when you apply for a role and all of the things that we
talk about with Spotify, etcetera that we've already
covered off, right. And then if I don't elevate the
human experience of the human tohuman interview, then that
(31:33):
fails. You know, you've, you, you can't
just lift and shift a tool like that into an existing historical
recruitment process. There has to be a, a, a full
strategy of where am I going to lift the human skills and where
am I going to implement AI And it has to balance.
(31:53):
Yeah, yeah, totally. It kind of went on to a question
I wanted to ask you, which was whether the, you know, there's a
perception that the human touch in recruitment is, is being
lost, But is it a case that it'ssimply shifting where the human
rights occurs in the hiring funnel?
And I think that you've alluded to it there.
That's that's kind of addressingone of these misconceptions out
(32:16):
there at the moment that you're just leaving it all up to to
robots to kind of manage everything.
What would you say after explaining kind of your process,
what would you say in your opinion, are some actionable
strategies that either candidates or employers can use
to cut out a lot of this noise and increase their chances of
finding the right match for the right role?
(32:36):
Yeah, it's oh gosh, there are somany right.
Like where do we start? Do we want to start on on the
candidate side? How to breakthrough Yeah, good
for the noise. I I think personalise
everything. If you're if you're a candidate
listening and identify the employers that you want to work
for have a really good and and you will never not find the
(32:56):
values of an organisation or a purpose without a very quick
search. Plug it in.
You know, there we go. You can plug it into ChatGPT 5
and you'll find it right. You know, I think the hyper
personalisation, regardless of whether that process is hyper
personalised yet, get it in yourcover letter and tailor your CV
for that role, right? The more personal you are.
And let's break down that misconception right now.
(33:18):
The firing off 200 applications using a tool that's just going
to apply for everything. It's not going to work, and
you're more than likely going toget ruled out that way than you
are if you spend a couple of minutes personalising your your
application. And I think just before we go
back to say what strategies for the company, like so much of
what I've seen and and read and been hurt, is someone saying
(33:40):
I've fired off 5000 applicationsusing one of these tools.
I don't personalise anything andI can't get any callbacks or any
interviews. Yeah.
And then, you know, it becomes this negative feedback loop
where you're not getting any response to say 5000.
You may feel it's even worth less effort moving forward when
(34:00):
the solution genuinely try and connect with the person on the
other end of these things as a human and as an, you know,
representative of a of a business or an organisation,
that's where the effort should be.
And it can be silly, right? Like it doesn't need to be, you
know, I believe in couple letters as do you.
We've, we've kind of landed on that as a collective, right?
But I, I, I think, you know, I love ACV where someone wax on a,
(34:24):
you know, a picture of themselves wearing a fake
moustache. I get them all the time, right?
And, and, and they'll be really,really crazy and quirky.
And it's that sense of humour coming through that I know all
this person, they've taken a little bit of effort there and
they don't take themselves too seriously.
And they understand that we're, you know, edgy and we're real.
And that's how we operate. And one of our values is fun.
And they're having fun. And, you know, it can just be
(34:46):
little things like that. Yeah, just to totally show that
you get the organisation, you get it.
Yeah, Yeah. But what could say companies or
people involved in hiring, like what strategies could they
employ to optimise everything? Like if they're potentially
feeling burnt out by this scale,what tactics could they employ
to maybe help themselves sift through that scale?
(35:09):
Look, we are a bloody conservative industry, mate.
Like any talent leader, any HR leader out there, we've got to
get our people embracing creativity and we have to do it
now, OK? Because otherwise, you know,
these machines can take over, right?
They can, right. So, so you, you need to be
(35:30):
creative in terms of what you'redoing or you're going to fall
behind. I think at the moment it starts
small. And I actually learned this
yesterday. I was in an Amazon workshop on
AI. That was a, you know, a
basically AI think group that we've got at Movember that
involves CEO, chief marketing officer, and there's about 10 of
us in there. And, and it was really that
start, start small and scale fast, you know, and, and, and
(35:53):
that's really stuck with me fromyesterday and something that
I've been thinking about a lot today.
And, and, and I think that's what I've, what I've done, you
know, with things like agentic AI with, with how I've hyper
personalised the application experience, there's so much more
I can do with it and I need to scale that quickly or I'm going
to fall behind. So I think what we're going to
(36:13):
see in the future, if organisations don't catch up to
this and start doing that and start being more creative and
thinking differently of what that experience can look like
for applications, they're going to lose because we will get
another talent crunch. And you'll find that talent and
good talent will be going to theorganisations that are doing
(36:33):
that really well. And I'm hoping Movember will be
probably going to be one of those, right.
If, if, if you don't catch up now, if, if you're still using
these outdated technologies, these outdated systems, if
you're still ghosting candidates, if you're still just
treating this as a numbers game,you're going to lose because
(36:54):
this is advancing way too quickly.
If you're not lifting and elevating the human side of what
we do in recruitment and selection, even 12 months from
now, things are going to look very differently.
That that's a great segue into into my next question, which was
going to be looking forward. What might the, you know, the
candidate search or the job search of the future potentially
(37:15):
look like in your opinion? I think it's it's going to be
very deep consultative like I think that connection is going
to be even stronger. I think roles like mine are
going to become more of a careerand life coach, in all honesty.
OK. I think we we will get to the
point the true value and where what's keeping me up at night.
(37:35):
And I'll tell you what's keepingme up at night is that, you
know, people are sharing those really powerful stories with me.
They're putting effort into their applications.
I'm inviting more and more people into the funnel to
experience Movember and to put their best foot forward.
And then what? Right.
It's the end, then what? So really if I had the time, if
(37:56):
I can automate as much as I can in that front end and spend as
much time as I can in the and then what?
I think that's where the power is going to be because I think
that expectation is going to become greater and greater.
It's not just a quick, short, sharp feedback.
Sorry you've been unsuccessful, whatever reasons even and a lot
(38:17):
of people don't even give a lot of those reasons, right?
And in fact, the vast majority of applications that come
through will get a thanks, but no thanks in a, in a much nicer
way, obviously, but you know, you know, so, so where does that
put us, right? If we're, if we're doing all of
that at the front end through the process, if we're relying on
automation, people are putting all of that effort in.
(38:37):
What does that feedback loop look like?
You know, we can't go like we all know we can't ghost and
people still do that. And I don't understand why,
because it's not the reason we got into this industry.
So people that are in those roles that are ghosting, it
makes no sense to me because I'm, again, that would keep me
up at night. Would you say that that's simply
born out of scale again, you know, how could you give unique,
(39:00):
unique and and constructive feedback to say 750 applicants
or I know, but. You're right, you're absolutely
right. And you know, talent functions
have been under resourced always, right?
Like let's do more with less. It always has been.
You know, we saw post COVID all the redundancies that happened
in our space. Everyone said, Oh, well, we're
not going to hire for a little while because we we're going
(39:21):
through, you know, economic recovery and we're just gonna
keep our organisations flat. So we'll just boot the talent
team. They're not gonna be recruiting.
And then of course, you know, 12months later they had to build
another recruitment team, of course.
So, you know, I, I think that it's that it's long days, it's
long hours. The traditional way of
recruiting and going through CV by CV by CV is exhausting.
(39:44):
You become tired, you know, consultants become lazy for
that. And our technology just wasn't,
wasn't where it need, needed to be in order to, to personalise
feedback. And yes, it is, it is scale, it
is volume, but it's got a shift and it's going to shift because
the expectations, as I said, if we're expecting applicants to do
(40:06):
more and to share more and for us to form that connection,
everything we're talking about from your aeroplane lamp in the
background earlier, right? Like if you're inviting me into
your home, the least I can do isgive you something that you can
go away. And learn from through that
process and an experience that you'll be able to reflect on and
(40:27):
go, Do you know what? Eden was an absolute legend.
Yeah. I'm going to grow a moustache
this year because that cause andeverything that I learned
through that process, they're doing bloody amazing work.
And I need to be a part of it because I want to change men's
health as well. Right.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that so much of what
you said around utilising less human things to allow for more
(40:48):
human interaction at different stages of the process.
And, and even your point around gets getting a bit more creative
about how people screen candidates and things, which
again, let's that humanity shinethrough.
It sounds like there is still quite a lot of emphasis on the
human side behind everything, which is lovely.
Thanks so much for for all that Eden.
(41:10):
What's on the horizon for you and where can people follow what
you're up to? Yeah, for sure.
Well, always follow me on LinkedIn.
Look horizon for me, like the creative, right?
Like I, you know, I have redesigned our employer brand
and really, you know, and, and alot of that is around the, the
process of the application and really inviting people to come
and do good with us. So I'll be doing a lot of work
(41:32):
around that and a lot of creative work, which is
exciting. So follow the Movember page and,
and we're coming into campaigns.So, you know, you'll be seeing a
lot of content coming from November and it's time to start
planning your moustache or your or your move for November
challenge. I have launched a, a podcast.
So Eden Haddock, total talent, have a search for that on
(41:52):
Spotify or, or Apple. And, and that's really just sort
of me sharing what's going on inmy world.
And people can learn more about what's happening in the, in the
talent space. It's me blathering on for 20
minutes each episode. It's really about what's
happening and I'm using AI to summarise it.
So there you go. It's helping, it's helping me
script it. But yeah, I'm always open to
(42:13):
hearing what's going on. And as candidates like share
more of what's going on, you know, we want to know and we
want to learn. And I think if you go through a
recruitment process and you enjoy components of it, share it
with the recruiter. If there are things that need
improve, share it, right? I survey everyone, Everyone.
You know, I've got since I launched this in in March, I've
(42:34):
got 1300 different responses from candidates and, you know.
Doing something right then? Yeah, right.
But look at, you know, some of it's improvement, right?
Some of it was like, you know, the colour wasn't accessible.
I'm vision impaired and I went shit as I need to fix that
straight away. I didn't even realise.
Right. Like you learn.
You learn along the way. Yeah.
Awesome, Eden, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Thanks mate, it was great. For more info on what we've
(42:58):
discussed today, check out the show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you cansubscribe to Ruined by the
Internet on your favourite podcast app and help spread the
word by sharing this episode or leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next time.
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