Conversation with Attorney Octavius Holliday - Criminal Justice and a Prosecutor’s Journey

What happens when the power to determine someone's fate rests in your hands? Attorney Octavius Holliday Jr., Director of the Human Rights Division at the State Attorney's Office, pulls back the curtain on prosecutorial discretion and the human element of justice in this thought-provoking conversation.

Holiday's remarkable journey from Duke University to respected prosecutor took an unexpected turn when he became a father of two  sets of twins during college. These personal challenges shaped his understanding of life's complexities and informed his compassionate approach to prosecution.

After ten years as a prosecutor, Holliday established his own criminal defense practice before returning to the State Attorney's Office under a new administration. This unique perspective from both sides of the courtroom allows him to address misconceptions about how justice works. He explains why two seemingly identical crimes might receive different charges and sentences, and why human judgment – not algorithms or rigid guidelines – remains essential in fair prosecution.

The conversation delves into the tension between community perceptions and prosecutorial realities. Holliday acknowledges the collective trauma experienced by Black communities due to historical mistreatment by law enforcement while asserting that much more grace and rehabilitation-focused approaches are employed than many realize. His work with elder abuse cases reveals disturbing vulnerabilities in our society, while his passionate plea for community involvement challenges professionals who've achieved success to give back.

Whether you're interested in criminal justice, community activism, or understanding power dynamics in our legal system, Holliday’s insights offer a rare glimpse into how justice actually works in practice. Join the conversation about balancing fairness, safety, and compassion in our communities.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 3 (00:32):
um, it looked like he worked on a friday no, I just
realized I had to get somesubpoenas out and didn't do it,
so oh okay, keep your real job.
For real.
You know, no matter what we do,you're going to have to track
this on both sides, so it's athankless job.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
It's a thankless job, you said.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
But not for the people who side you wrong.
No, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
We're going to get cursed out, no matter what.
I'm not complaining about it,because I've been doing it 20
years, you have.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
This is the thankless job, Octavius.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
This one right here.
Y'all trying to be famous,y'all trying to be like Shannon
Sharp, right.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
What.
Oh really we need morecontroversy for that, though.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
Yeah, well, you may be the one.
Okay, were going to tell ronniehow I was the most fabulous
person in the world.
Is that how it started?
I?

Speaker 3 (01:28):
was going to tell him how I went to leadership
jacksonville because of joniportier and I didn't care
whether I got in or not.
But um, they said yeah.
So I was like, all right, let'sgo.
And um, you know, we gotseveral um african-american
participants right, but um, Isay t and I'm like you know what
?
I think we got a vibe righthere and I'm talking about an

(01:48):
African American vibe.
You know how it go right.
The black black one, right,right, right.
I'm looking around and I see Iain't gonna name no names.
I see no people.
And I got to know them and youknow what.
Everything's cool, but I don'tlove any Leadership Jacksonville
people like I do Tia Levin.
So the rest of them, man, it'sall good, we're friends.

(02:08):
They can call me for anything,right.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
We were trying to do the funny part about it, right,
we were trying to avoid eachother.
We're like we're not going tobe those people, right?
We're not going to be thosepeople who immediately gravitate
toward each other, and that'sall we do.
So we were trying our best tospread our wings and all that,
and we ended up at the hoteldown in St Augustine.
We were in a hotel.
We were sitting on the samecouch with our backs to each
other you don't remember thisWith our backs to each other and

(02:33):
please tell the whole story,because the hotel already got me
like no no

Speaker 2 (02:37):
no, we're in a lobby, god.
This is not the story whatyou're thinking.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's not a story.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
The renaissance for the meetings we had the
renaissance okay you gotta startwith that we got our back to
each other and I was like weneed to just stop playing.
Why are we playing?
We already know that we'regonna end up being friends by
the end of this.
We might as well start it rightnow.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I don't know why we tripping so the basic assumption
said y'all were going to befriends as part of the
leadership.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
No, no, no More than that we were the two black-black
African Americans.

Speaker 4 (03:09):
How did you know I was black-black though?

Speaker 3 (03:11):
It was a vibe, which that's what I'm trying to tell
you.
I can feel it In the culture.
I can feel it.
It's a culture, it comes out.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
You know what?

Speaker 1 (03:19):
You're already making this hard to edit Octavius.
You're already making it hardto edit Octavius.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
I got y'all wrong.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
You're already making it hard to edit, just like that
.
We're two minutes into the damnthing.
Well, well, we welcome alllevels.
I ended up part of theinterview I ended up part of the
interview.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
I want to know why y'all chose.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
What's his name?
We all had him there beforeBefore me Senator.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Hill, just now, y'all just had Senator Hill.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
He's a good speaker.
Yeah, I mean, you're a goodspeaker.
You're an attorney, I'm lookingat the pecking order.
You got Maxie, you got SenatorHill, you got Judge Davis.
If y'all had some other people,I was like, nah, I'm in front
of them, I'm not sure what y'alldo.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
This is good.
I'm not sure what y'all do, sothis is good.
This is good.
I'm glad you're saying thisbecause it's about education,
tech community, so not just wekind of were in our education,
groove up front.
So yeah, all right.
Well, I'll start by readingyour bio.

(04:21):
I'm already laughing.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
So will you Go ahead, you sure?
Yeah, I don't even think Iwrote it.
I think one of our people herewrote it.

Speaker 4 (04:33):
All right Scratchwork EVU listeners.
Today we have with us AttorneyOctavius A Holiday Jr, director
of the Human Rights Division andthe Community Crime Strategies
Unit for the State Attorney'sOffice 4th Judicial Circuit of
Florida.
Originally from the CentralFlorida area, seminole and
Orange Counties, attorneyHolliday attended Duke

(04:55):
University on a footballscholarship for his
undergraduate degree inpolitical science and history,
bachelor of Arts, in 1995, andthe University of Florida for
his law degree, juris Doctor,2002.
Upon passing the Florida Bar,attorney Holliday worked at the
state attorney's office forapproximately 10 years in
various areas of the officebefore resigning in September

(05:19):
2012 to begin his solo lawpractice in the areas of
criminal defense and family law.
Attorney Holliday returned tothe state attorney's office in
January 2017 under MelissaNelson's administration to head
the Human Rights Division, whichinvestigates and prosecutes
exploitation of elderly anddisabled adults, hate crimes,

(05:42):
human trafficking and policeexcessive force cases Inside the
state attorney's office.
Attorney Holiday is also apermanent member of the Death
Penalty Grand Jury Review Panel,the Officer Involved Shooting
Review Panel, the AttorneyHiring, recruitment and
Retention Team and the ElderAbuse Fatality Review Team.

(06:06):
Attorney Holliday is the currentvassaless of the Theta Phi
Chapter of Omega Psi PhiFraternity Incorporated, the
oldest chapter in Florida.
A member of the City ofJacksonville Jack's Journey
Forward Board.
A member and past president ofthe DW Perkins Bar Association.
A mentor with the 100 Black Menof Jacksonville.

(06:26):
A member of the 2017 Class ofLeadership Jacksonville the best
class.
A member of the University ofFlorida Black Alumni Association
.
A member of the JacksonvilleUrban League Guild.
A member of the JacksonvilleBar and several other community
service-focused organizations.
Attorney Holiday is the currentFlorida Bar Claude Pepper

(06:49):
Outstanding Government Lawyer ofthe Year, the 2020 recipient of
the State Attorney's OfficeFourth Leadership Award, the
2018 Jacksonville Omega man ofthe Year, the 2011 Hundred Black
Men of Jacksonville man of theYear and the recipient of
numerous other awards andrecognitions for his commitment
to the Jacksonville community.

(07:10):
Attorney Holiday is married toWilliam M Rain&M University

(07:37):
pre-med graduate, madisonHoliday and 24-year-old Florida
A&M University pre-med graduate,madison Holiday.
Attorney Holiday is also theproud stepdad of three bonus
children Alina, alexander andGregory.
Welcome to the Scratchwork EDUpodcast.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Attorney Octavius, a Holiday, what's funny.
I'm curious about what part ofthat was funny.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
First of all, you started laughing when I said it,
so you tell me what was funny.
That's who I am.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
I mean we can go on to other stuff you know about
certificate.
I'm saying what's funny aboutmy bio?

Speaker 4 (08:14):
First of all, the bio is great.
So proud of you, all the things.
I started a pause on William sothat the listeners could think
that you were married tosomebody named William.
And then you said William MRaines, high school Chinese
teacher.
Why do you need to say all that?

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Because that's how she introduces herself.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
She said that she works with William M Raines, why
y'all say all that why?

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Because she's part of that school.
That's your alma mater, tia,you're supposed to be saying the
same thing.
You're supposed to be sayingWilliam same thing You're
supposed to be saying Williamand Ray's high school graduate
in 1999.

Speaker 4 (08:45):
That's what you're supposed to be, saying Ronnie,
why do you think they say allthat Uh-uh, come off, mute, nope
.
Nope, nope, I love William andRay's.
You're right, it's the bestschool in the land.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
That's something that Principal Hall started, that's,
you know, the Harvard of theSouth or whatever Y'all can edit
that out, that's what y'allcall Reigns the high school
Harvard of the South.

Speaker 4 (09:08):
First of all, that's what the principal says.
The principal calls it the highschool Harvard.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Right.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
The principal has called it that for a while.
He is also a Reigns graduate1990, reigns 90.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Which is all funny.
I don't even have to get intothat here, but that's how me and
my wife met.
Because of that relationship.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Because of you going up to Reigns.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
No, because we were at my sister's church.
It's a bunch of things kind ofworked together.
We was at my sister's church.
Reigns and Rebo have or Rebohas their annual football game
every year obviously NorthwestClassic and they go to a church
on the sunday before the gamefor prayers for the team and all
that.
This happened to be a time whenthey were trying to celebrate,

(09:50):
uh, the teachers of the year andall that.
So they had the bands andcheerleaders and teachers of the
year and my wife was a teacherof the year for rain.
So I went to support my sisterbecause she does a um, a youth
group kind of a play kind ofthing.
So she was like kill, call meoctavius, call, call me Tavius,
tavius, be there early, becauseyou know you're always getting
that late.
My kid's not performed already,so get there early.
So I went early and I thought Iwas getting there early.

(10:13):
They had two services so I hadto wait until the end of the
previous service and I'm likeman, you know what, you could
have told me that.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
But then I saw my wife and I was like oh snap,
okay then.
That's right, right there.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
But I grew up church, God and Christ.
We don't really be flirtinglike that in church.
That's why we were raised.
But after the service thereason Crystal.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Hall comes into it because I knew Y'all the only
denomination that don't beflirting in church.
We got some rules.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Coach, you got some rules.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Oh, real rules.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Don't leave it for benediction.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
We got some rules so you can do some stuff, but do it
outside of church.
I just never felt comfortableever doing that, so I'm good.
And then, after the service wasover, I saw Vincent Hall, who
just happened to be theclassmate of a former girlfriend
, right, but I've known Vincentfor several years, so I go down
and say what's up to him.
You know that's it.
Him and Bostic were down there.

(11:06):
I'm talking to Dr Bostic, soI'm going to say what's up to
Vincent Hall and Dr Bostic, andthen up pops this lady talking
about can you take a picture ofme and my boss?
And I was like shit, I'll domore than that.
I'll marry you, I we're gonnahave some more kids, but anyway,
that's that's how it kind ofstarted okay, all right, now
we're getting into it.

(11:26):
Love it love it, love it, that's.
That's the first one.
Yes, ma'am rains, rains.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
Does that does have a way, so I won't.
I won't get on that.
That is the best school in thecounty.
For those listening um, dubaicounty has the best school
called rains.
And then there's rebolt and notreboat, but anyway, moving on
anyway moving on so.
Octavius, you played footballfor Duke right, I did.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
I like to say I practiced football for Duke.

Speaker 4 (11:50):
You can correct that you practiced football for Duke.
Okay, there was some politicsgoing on.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Man, I'm still bitter about that thing.
I got some things I hold on to,so no, they didn't put me on
the field as a receiver.
Look first of all, I Um.
So no, they put me on the fieldas a receiver, I look first of
all.
I was thinner than I am now.
Now, you was a receiver, I wasa receiver Right.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, I know Okay.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, I was a wide receiver, I was about 200 back
then, so, but I had good hands.
I'm telling you, I had thehands.
But then I also had a field andthen they had me on the
practice squad and I'm goingagainst the starters and I'm
dogging them and I'm talkingnoise the whole time like, look,
you would have to go throughthis if they just played me.

(12:29):
If they played me, you wouldhave to go through this.
How you gonna beat FloridaState if you can't stop me?
Bam, catch, you know yougarbage.
Get some game, watch yourself,bam, you know, and this is a
real story.
Now we're in the locker room.
The coach is like stand up.
And I stand up, you know.
And he was like you're a cancer.
He never cursed.
This is Barry Wilson.

(12:50):
But he was like you're a cancerto the team.
You ruin our players'confidence.
I was like your players' lackof ability this is what I'm
saying to, and it got nothing todo with me Put players on the
field that can play.
So we go four and seven damnnear every year, and I'm still
not playing.
So I was like you know whatForget being a receiver, let me

(13:11):
go just kill some people onspecial teams.
And that's what I ended updoing.
I was an assassin, running downthe field, killing folks on
every play and having a goodtime I don't care if the player
was on my side or not, somebody,you know, some random dude,
just you know you play over.
I'm like, well, no, bro, you'regoing to feel this, you're
going to remember this, kid Bam.

(13:31):
So I had a good time with DukeProbably partied and I didn't
drink back then at all, but Ihad a good, good time that we
probably can't even talk abouton your podcast.
I'm telling you it was aperfect situation and it was a
good, good time until I had kids, so that kids ruined all that.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
So what I'm hearing is you went to Duke, you played
football, you had to argue onthe sidelines just to get some
play time.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
In the meetings.
In the meetings.

Speaker 4 (14:00):
And then you basically had to get your talk
game straight to get some girls.
So at the end of the day youwent into law school, so you
could perfect this craft.
Is that what?

Speaker 3 (14:08):
happened.
No, no, no, no, no.
Life happened before that.
So I'm playing, I'm doing mything in college and what's
funny was I thought you know,that's quite my roommate he's.
You know, he's a good dude.
He's still living in Durham now.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
But, now.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
But he played around man, he would have two or three
girlfriends on campus at thesame time and I was like boy,
you are sorry, you're ragged attreating the ladies right.
And he'd be like no bro, lookin the mirror.
You got one back in Orlando andon campus I was like yeah, but
they're never going to see eachother.
What happened?
was my girlfriend from Orlandogot pregnant, got pregnant with

(14:42):
twins, and so I couldn't playfootball anymore because I had
to support the kids.
So back on January 15th 1994,the kids weren't even a year, a
month old I got a job at RedLobster.
And then on February 12th 1994,I got a job at a security firm
down at Glaxo Welcome.
And so I was working two jobs,trying to graduate and take care

(15:03):
of two kids.
No more football.
No, so welcome.
And so I was working two jobs,trying to graduate and take care
of two kids.
No more football, no moreearring.
I had an earring around here,earring in my ear, thought I was
doing something.
But, um, kids will humble youbecause they are saying, daddy,
you're only 21 years old, two ata time I'll humble you oh yeah,
that first two was hard though,because ultimately, uh, we
weren't together as a couplenecessarily you, you know, you

(15:25):
know we kind of were, becauseyou know I told you already
about how I dated.
So I had to basically get mylife together, never miss any
more classes.
So now I've become a straight-Astudent.
So I went from mediocre grades,hanging out not going to class,
up and down semesters dependingon how I felt about it, to
straight-A.
So I come back to Orlando.

(15:46):
I'm a waiter that's why I treatservice so well because I was a
waiter at Red Lobster in Durham,I moved back to Orlando because
that's where the babies wereand they're in the mall.
And then I was waiting tablesin East Orlando, waiting tables
at Disney as well, and then alsoworked as a runner at a law
firm.
So the whole thing was let meget their mom to get out of

(16:07):
school she was at UCF Let herget out of college and then I
can get my chance to go toschool.
And somewhere in the middle ofthat we fell in love again and
got married.
She graduated in 99 out of UCF.
I was going to enter Florida inJanuary 2000.
Before that even happened, shewas like oh, guess what, honey?

(16:27):
I was like you better not sayyou're pregnant.
I know that, I know that.
Nah, she went to the doctor andcame up with another set of
twins, which were born rightafter my first semester of law
school.
That's life hitting you.
You got four kids, you're inlaw school, you got a wife and
you still work.
And you know, law school,university of Florida was like
you can't work and I was likeman you gonna pay?

(16:49):
these bills or what you know.
Well, that's how it went.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
Octavius, I think we all need a moment of silence,
because ain't?

Speaker 3 (16:56):
no way, ain't, no way where.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
Second pregnancy is another set of twins.
Yeah, man, yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, yeah.
But it was a time I tell youwhat law school was a blur.
People were like remember whenwe did this?
I was like, no, I do notremember that because it was a
blur.
I was tired the whole time,exhausted the whole time, and
you know, that's where it was,and that's not even talking
about breaking on the way to thebar exam.
I'm telling you God has.
I know you don't want me topreach here, but I'm telling you

(17:24):
my heart has a hand on my lifeand I don't talk about it a
whole lot to my sister becauseyou know, because she a Bible
thumper, but I don't talk aboutit to most people.
But yeah, definitely I brokedown on the way to the bar exam.
I was an hour late, made thebar exam questions.

(17:49):
You know the first three hoursis essay questions and he made
those and that really makes itbreak your grade.
Honestly.
You can you kind of get down toother parts, but that those
essay questions they hit someareas of law that you're just
not familiar with, you're notpast.
And the first one they had wascriminal law.
I was like how the heck didthey do that?
Boom.
And then they had evidence Iwas on it.

(18:09):
So two out of the three I'm notgoing to have to park.
And then the last one was onestates and trusts, which I was
in.
We were weakened, but two outof the three I can bang out.
So I passed abroad the firsttime and started my life in
Jacksonville.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
There you go.
That is awesome, I did not knowthat story.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
I know a lot of folks , man, that bar exam kept them
from their dreams.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, I still know folks right now.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Man, they went to school and they just couldn't
get past that exam.
So, yeah, that must have been achallenge.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
When you get the grades, you know the bar exam.
They mess with you.
Now you get the grades, youknow the bargain.
They mess with you.
Now One they design the testfor you to fail Like they design
the test to trick you.
It's not like any other testyou take where you know the
material.
You spit it out, you win right.
No, they design the test totrick you with those multiple,
multiples.
If you go down the wrong holeyou end up in a whole different
part of the answer.

(19:00):
You're not gonna get it right.
But I do remember when I got theresults.
They make it like a telephonebook.
Remember the old telephonebooks.
You can't hardly find thenumber.
You got to kind of go across.
You have to.
They they put it out on somecomputer sheet.
You have to get a piece ofpaper and load it like, put it
up to the name and go across tofind.
It's crazy, you gotta find yournumber and then go across.

(19:20):
So when it said pass, pass, itwas emotional.
I'm not not a crier, but I hadto.
I just broke down.
We're not to the river, was youseven building?
Our state turns off by thebuilding, by the river Other
than the town and went downthere, took a few moments cry.
I stopped playing some MaryMary when I saw incredible, yeah

(19:40):
.
But I was like you know this iscrazy, but call my dad, you
know, rest in peace to him.
Call my mom, rest in peace.
But anyway, it happened.
So we were off and on our wayin Jacksonville, me, the ex-wife
and the four kids.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
And all the kids, all the kids, all of them.

Speaker 3 (19:58):
I done re-upped.
I done signed up for three moreLast night.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
they was running around the house.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
I was like sit down somewhere and I was like man
this is a flashback to what Iwas raising my four Right you
got good practice, though youwere ready you were ready yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, so you, you go from this beautiful story.
First of, all to working forthe state attorney's office for
several years?
What?

Speaker 3 (20:20):
made you go solo because it was a um, you have to
, you have to, and I didn't knowwhen I was young, I was just
trying to learn how to do thejob.
But after a while, you you wantto align yourself with
leadership that has um, yoursame values and principles and
um you know it's funny because Iwas I was at the jacksonville
journey, um forward meeting.

(20:42):
You know, I'm on that board.
They were talking aboutjuvenile justice and nobody says
the name, they just say well,in 2008, the juvenile justice
where the state attorney'soffice operated, went a
different direction and nowwe're glad to have it back on
this side in 2017.
But there's a person associatedwith that.

(21:03):
I'm not throwing stones at her,but the way she went about her
business, getting in line withhow I saw prosecution, how I saw
the need for prosecutors to beoutside of the office, and I'll
tell you a quick story.
It was about 2011, and I waspretty high in the office
actually, and maybe about 2010,I think 2010.

(21:23):
And they showed a movie maybey'all saw it 904?
.
There's a movie called 904 thattalked about crime victims and
crime defendants, right, and thewhole thing was about sympathy
for crime victims and then alsosome rehabilitative efforts for
the defendants to get them onthe right path, and they had.
I Forgot the Young Man's.
Now he speaks all the timearound town.

(21:45):
But ultimately, when the moviewas over, I thought it was a
pretty good movie.
You know, a short movie.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Our leadership stood up and was like oh, that's
garbage, man, that's garbage.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Them guys know what they're doing and you know we
don't need more programs in thistype of town and we need to
just get the maximum.
And you know I could have justsat there and took that, but I
was like man, I bought this.
So I stood up and said look, wethink we're going to try to
prosecute our way out of a crimeproblem.
We're stupid because you knowthe way I look at it.
At the time I was doing this, Iwas involved heavily with 100
Black Men, venture on the youngside, on people's side, and then

(22:20):
I was also involved withreentry on the back side.
I'm trying to have a impact allaround, not just prosecuting
this 10 or 15 percent that wecatch and are able to prosecute.
And I wanted that message to beto my colleagues that we are
foolish, and I think some ofthem.
I used to say this.
I don't know if that's not truenow, but I used to say you know
what?
Um, a raging racist person, aperson who just don't like black

(22:41):
people and they can get awaywith giving the side of state
attorney's office becausethere's so much discretion that
we have as prosecutors to go.
I want to say lenient, but youcan do something.
I'll use the example.
If a little boy is walking downthe street and he sees a
basketball inside of a fence 10yard to a house and he goes and
takes a basketball, well, whatcrime has been committed right

(23:02):
there?
Technically, that's a burglaryto that house.
It's called the curtailage ofthe house, so the fence around
the house and the house is allthe same.
You might as well went insidethe house at two o'clock in the
morning.
It's the same crime.
And if you have the wrongprosecutor, they can look at
that little boy and say, yeah,I'm going to charge him with a
second-degree felony burglarywith a minimum guidelines, with
no prior record, of 21 months atthe bottom, 15 years at the top

(23:24):
.
That and that's a legalsentence.
So a lot of what happens inprosecution is not the judges,
it is the person sitting on theprosecution side, and what
charges we decide to bring whichI decide not to bring is is
really a lot of power in ourhands as far as what's um, what
justice is.
So you have a bad mentality atthe top and it filters way down

(23:47):
and then ultimately you gothorror stories all over the city
with people saying my loved onedid something wrong, he
deserved life in prison or hedeserved 30 years.
You hear that all over.
So essentially that's what I'mtalking about.
When I said I made that speech,I basically dispelled the end of
my assent in the office.
I can't speech.
I basically dispelled the endof my ascent in the office.
I can't remember what.
The next day of the next week,what they sent me down to

(24:08):
juvenile.
It was quick, it was quick, butI joined my time in juvenile
before I left and then I was noteven thinking about coming back
.
And then just happens to be whenMelissa Nelson was on her
campaign trail.
We ended up in the same roomsover and over again.
By that time I'm really on somany different boards and stuff
like that that we end up.
She ended up talking to pastorsI'm in the room, I'm not pastor

(24:30):
, but just I was part of thatmeeting.
Talk to naacp I'm in that room,different things around the
city and then she was like youwant to come back?
I was like hell, no, I ain'tcoming back.
Why would I come back?
And I don't think I was treatedthat well when I was here the
first time.
I won't get into that.
But ultimately I was like, okay, man, I'm going to get this
woman to get off my back.
I'm going to.
And I'll just say that Melissawas my division chief back in

(24:53):
2004 and five Like so.
We had a relationship from wayback, but I was, I gave her, I
gave her three things and I it.
I was like I'm not coming backunless you satisfy these
straight thing.
One is the money.
Get that right first.
The next one is autonomy.
I don't need nobody on top ofme telling me what to do.
I'm going to have be able tomake my decisions good or bad.
Live with it, you know whatever.
And the next one you know I'llbe blunt about it and say I have

(25:14):
some people who, um, I had somerun-ins with and I questioned
their um, whether you're racist,whether they were just mean,
hostile, and I was like I'm nottrying to re-up, to be under
them at all.
So you figure that out.
And I didn't think she would.
Actually, I was like you figurethat out, I was making my money
in my law firm.
And then she called back andwas yeah, we'll do that.

(25:35):
And I was like what For real andI felt like this was an
overarching.
I know I'm talking too much now, but this was an overarching
feeling in Jackson at the timewas that we needed somebody at
the state attorney's office wholooked like us, who could be at
the table, and I was like, wellshoot, dexter Davis was a
prosecutor back in the 90s andRichard Brown was a prosecutor

(25:56):
in the 90s and everybody wetalked about had been gone 15
years by then and nobody that wewas talking about had any real
um feet on the ground kind ofmovement about themselves as far
as doing work in the community.
So, um, I was like, okay, Icould really have more impact in
my career going back to thestate attorney's office than
being on my own having oneclient at a time.
I was having fun, I was gettingsome night guilt.

(26:17):
I'm telling you impact in mycareer going back to the state
attorney's office than being onmy own helping one client at a
time.
I was having fun, I was gettingsome not guilt.
I'm telling you, that's fun.
Right there, you get a notguilt and you're going against a
machine over that stateattorney's office.
They bring in all these boxesand they got three attorneys on
the case and it's just me and myclient and Jerry was like nah,
not guilty, we walk out of thecourtroom and I was feeling good
.
But I will say that when thatprevious prosecutor was no

(26:40):
longer the prosecutor I don'tknow I was I was super motivated
to be her office, honestly, andthen when she left it was like,
well, I think the best thingfor the people of Jacksonville
and I'm not trying to make toomuch of myself, I'm saying that
we do need somebody of color inthe room.
You know we were the previousprosecutor with.
The previous prosecutor wouldjust decide on her own would she

(27:01):
seek the death penalty, wouldshe prosecute that officer or
not prosecute that officer,whatever, and that's crazy.
So you need to have a collector, we need to come together in
the office and think about it.
So there you go.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
I mean I, you know one of the things when I think
about somebody like yourself inthe position and obviously you
know we've done so much I mean Ican't even count how many
mentoring sessions we've been intogether and all kind of lunch
and learns and things like thatso when I think about somebody
in your position being overthere in that office a lot of

(27:32):
times I do think about it fromthat young black male's
perspective.
Young Black males perspective,you know, is when he jumps over
the fence and tries to get theball, what kind of charges are
being brought against them andhaving somebody like you in
there to be fair.
But I'm also starting torecently think about how we are
prosecuting outside of the Blackcommunity, specifically the

(27:54):
January 6th riots and just theway that those folks were being
charged or lack thereof, orbeing released.
I know we've had incidents herelocally that I'm sure you had
some some pushback on related to, you know, teenagers that that
might have been intimidatingfolks.

(28:14):
You know voting booths andthings like that.
I guess talk to us a little bitabout how you handle even those
situations, any type ofintimidation or any acts like
that towards Black communities.
I know folks probably look atyou to say Tavis, fix it for us.
How do you approach that?

Speaker 3 (28:34):
Yeah Well, I do prosecute hate crimes, and not
just hate crimes, but crimes.
They give me some latitude inthe office crimes with a racial
animus.
So if you just say the N wordin the middle of your crime, it
might come to me for review tosee whether I should prosecute
that.
So I do get a lot of thosethat's not true hate crimes but
but have that racial animus as apart of it.

(28:55):
I pride myself on beingconsistent and I tell victims
all the time is that they canfeel the way they feel about a
case and they're going to behurt.
We got a thing called Marcy'sLaw where they're going to be
heard in court and have theiropinions heard.
But my job is to be consistentwith that defendant's criminal
prior criminal record how I'vetreated that scenario before and

(29:17):
be consistently so black, white, asian, whatever.
Now I do have a softer spot foryoung people and again, it
doesn't matter what race orwhatever it is, because young
people do stupid things rightand if I feel like we can handle
the situation and deal with itaccordingly, I don't need to mar
that person's record for therest of their life, because if

(29:39):
we put felony charges onsomebody they get convicted.
Whatever the case might be,that's a life sentence in terms
of your employability and you'regoing on with your life.
So a lot of times politics getinvolved.
I know a lot of people, so theygot my phone number and I don't
hide it.
They in my ear on this side andyou know whatever.
But overall I got to be fairand if I don't see it the way

(30:02):
you see it, that's fine.
You know, I don't like to getflipped with nobody and say, you
know, go to law school, get thejob, you make the decision you
want to, but but ultimately I'mtasked with being as fair as
possible.
So and that's I don't thinkthat's pie in the sky.
And I don't think that's pie inthe sky BS.
I'm fluent to you no-transcriptto get the defendant's

(30:44):
attention or get them on theright path or rehabilitate, and
I think that's what we callsmart justice.
In our office we got all thesediversion programs veterans
court and drug court and allthese other things in order to
give people second chances.
But nobody really bothers theoffice unless it's a politically
motivated situation.
And I say political it's notalways Republican or Democrat.
I'm saying you have an officeinvolved shooting.
These are the ones that I getthe most phone calls on.

(31:06):
We've got an office involvedshooting and the public doesn't
know what we know.
Typically, and you know I getsome people who are elected
officials that call me up andyou know that's crazy up, and
you know that that's crazy.
You know what jso did.
I was like will you please justhold on and don't march around
our office, around thecourthouse yet, because I'm
telling you that it's not goingto come out the way you want it
to come out.
Uh, what you, what you think itis, um, and I might even be

(31:28):
leaving some some things theresaying look, just just be cool
and we'll have a body-worncamera tomorrow, whatever the
case might be, but just be cool.
Typically they have heeded thatadvice and said let's wait
until more information comes out.
And when it comes out, you seethat it wasn't what it appears
to be and I've never really hadany problem with the media
necessarily, but they are aproblem and I'll say it right

(31:49):
now.
I'm saying on your recordedpodcast they are trying to get
clicks, okay, and they're goingto put it out there.
That they're going to put itout there.
That's what happened with thatlast thing you were just
alluding to, ronnie.
They put the story out there acertain way, meaning there was
no consequences for that person,and they put it out there in
order to get a reaction and getclicks.
And they do the same thing withoffice-involved shootings.
They do the same thing Anythingthat can take up anything

(32:14):
politically or racially.
They put the story out there ina certain way to get a reaction
.
And that's why I'm alwaystelling leadership who calls me
just relax for a second, justpause.
We're not hiding anything.
We're not doctoring anybody oncameras.
We're going to get it, but yougot to really not be.
And I tell you what thisirritates me.
And I'm saying this about myown people, about black folks.

(32:35):
We have such a history and soI'm blaming, but then I'm also
giving excuses, I guess as well.
We have a history of so muchwrong being done to us as a
people by law enforcement, bystate attorneys, by judges, et
cetera.
So we have a trauma, even if ithadn't happened to us.
People are like did it everhappen to you?
Well, it happened to my mom andmy auntie and my cousins.
Well, I read about it.

(32:55):
It's still a collective traumathat we have and ultimately we
have an attitude or a positionthat we don't believe the cops
first, we don't believe policefirst down.
Yet let's, let's see, becausewe're.
If it's something that's wrong,we're gonna prosecute.
You know, I remember the um,the mapper dunn case.

(33:26):
Um killed jordan davis, youknow, for playing music too loud
outside of the gas station atsouth side and in bay meadows
and people were protesting.
I'm like what you're protesting?
We prosecuted a man, um, he,he's in jail for life.
I'm not sure what we'reprotesting for.
We protesting for what end when, when it comes down to the um,

(33:47):
the office hasn't hadn't donethe right thing.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
I don't know if there's any reason for protest,
but um, but I guess, but I guessfrom my, my vantage point,
though, um and I don't put thisentire responsibility on you,
obviously you know, but I think,when you talk about the system,
I think sometimes, communitiesyes, you're right, we have these
horrible experiences, you know,either personally or indirectly

(34:11):
.
But also, I guess, when I flipit around, I constantly see that
same system trying to makeexamples out of, you know, black
communities, and what I mean bythat, you know.
For instance, I think about,like, the beaches, and you know,
spring break is coming up here,right, and my goodness, if you
had two black boys that go outto those beaches and and do

(34:34):
anything ridiculous, right,anything criminal, it's first of
all we're going to make anexample of them.
That's, that's how we feel as acommunity, right, the system's
going to make an example of them.
And, on top of that, we wouldprobably even go as far as
changing policy to make surethat that never happens again.
And it seems, it just seems,and you would know more than we
do.
But it seems sometimes that whenit's flipped around and the

(34:56):
incident you know, I'm referringto even, uh, you know that that
young granted, he was ateenager, but that young boy
that was, uh, you know, theTrump supporter with the machete
out there and stuff like that.
Now, in my mind sometimes Ithink communities are looking
for well, let's make an exampleout of that as well Like to
discourage any type of activitythat goes on like that again.

(35:17):
And and I know that's a lot ofresponsibility to kind of put on
you, but I, you know, I'masking the question so that you
can kind of respond to that,cause I think that's where
communities come from sometimesis no, we, we want, we want
justice in a way that nobodywould ever think about shooting
at a kid because his music istoo loud or because he was
running in the park.
Let's make an example out ofsomething to to deter that from

(35:41):
happening in the future.
But yeah, my first point wouldbe.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
I don't see, uh, and I know we're not innocent.
I mean we got 120 attorneys, sothings happen all the time that
clearly I don't know about it,whatever.
But I don't personally see usmaking examples of out of young
people.
Um, we give and is not.
We don't publicize itnecessarily, but we give so many
opportunities and chances toyoung people to write that wrong

(36:08):
.
So in plenty of chances wecould, every day, every week, we
could take somebody and holdthem up and say we're going to
make an example of this person.
But that's not what happens.
We normally have some gracethere and say let's do this, you
can do this community serviceor whatever the case might be
and put them on the right path.
So I don't see the same thingsthat you see.
I know the community sees it acertain way, but I'm on the

(36:29):
inside.
I've been a juvenile prosecutorbefore.
When this administration tookover we started having a
decrease in numbers for juveniledirect files, putting juveniles
in adult court.
So we have numbers to back thatup.
Now we've had an uptake latelybecause we have more juvenile
shooting at people um, shoot ateach other primarily, um, kind
of game related stuff.

(36:50):
So of course we got to put themin adult court if they're on
that track and they got priorsand stuff.
But for the most part I don'tsee what the community feels and
again I try to justify thatfeeling by saying we have a
history of being mistreated andI can't say that I wasn't
mistreated when I was a teen.
I had a gun pulled on me by thepolice when I was about 14.

(37:14):
And I've written that story onFacebook before and say that you
know what, every time Iencountered the police in my
neighborhood, I came from whatyou would call the hood in
Altamont Springs in Orlando,florida area, and every time
these days we call them the Dukeboys.
Y'all ever heard of Duke boys?
I'm not talking about Dukes ofHazzard, I'm talking about when
the police put masks on tackgear and they were in the back
of a U-Haul or a Ryder truck.

(37:36):
And they come around and aroundand they see a bunch of us in
the neighborhood just chillingwe're listening to music, right
and they jump out and if you runthey're going to grab you,
throw you in the ground, searchyour pockets.
And I didn't know theamendments at the time but I was
like man, that sounded like aviolation of something that
looked like a violation ofsomething, but I never ran.
I'm like I don't sell drugs, Idon't do anything.

(37:56):
You know, I was bold then to saylook, you know I'm not doing
anything criminal, but theywould take my friends, throw
them down, search their pockets.
That's the relationship we hadand the city I come from,
altamont Springs it's not, it'sreally in two.
Altamont Springs, police takescare of Altamont Springs.
We are really an unincorporatedpart of Southeast Seminole

(38:17):
County and the Seminole CountySheriff's Office is what places
my neighborhood in my area.
So that's what we're dealingwith and there's just a
violation of rights over andover and over again.
So I know that happens and ithappened to me when I was in
Jacksonville.
I was a law student not a lawstudent undergrad coming from my
friend's brother.
He was at Camp Lejeune, I thinkit was we.

(38:39):
He was at Camp Lejeune, I thinkit was.
We're coming throughJacksonville, but he's Puerto
Rican looking.
They stopped their search onthe car for no reason.
You know.
I was like Jacksonville iscrazy.
So when I got to Jacksonville,I got to stay at the attorney's
office.
My first, one of my firstthings I was thinking about look
, anytime I see somethingsuspicious about a law and
police report, I'm going to makesure I make a list and and we
did that for a long time have alist of officers and try to root

(38:59):
them out of the sheriff'soffice, and we still do that to
a certain degree.
But I don't see what you'reseeing, ronnie.
I know the community feels acertain way and they got stories
to back it up, anecdotalstories.
I see young people of allcolors and I will say that, as
far as the number of the colorof people who get most arrested

(39:21):
in our city, um, do, look likeus and there's a lot of grace
given to a lot of our youngpeople.
Um, period, it's just it, justthat's what happens.
But, um, so everybody don't getthe book thrown at them and the
persons who you know, it's kindof funny, who you know.
It sounded funny to me a littlebit because that is one story
that's funny to me, not funnywhat you're saying.

(39:41):
I was on a commission with thesheriff's office and we were
reviewing cases and they werebringing cases for us to review
to see that there was racism indifferent cases in Jacksonville.
I'm at the table with fivehigh-ranking sheriff's officials
and five community leaders andthe case they bring in front of
us was my case.
Like, okay, they're talkingabout my case and it was a case

(40:03):
of a young black boy, 18, 19years old, who was a student at
JU.
He was on the football team.
Ju had a football team andsomebody told him for stealing
an iPod and he wanted toretaliate against that person.
He did.
He laid in wait and it was thequarterback.
He had six, five white guy andhe hit that kid in the head with

(40:25):
a baseball bat, bam, across thehead and then right down the
middle, boom, and could havekilled the kid right.
So they were saying it startedout not talking about the act
but talking about the punishment.
This kid got five years inprison, he had no record and et
cetera, et cetera.
But I understand how justgiving limited facts can make

(40:47):
people feel a certain way.
So you have limited facts andyou say, oh, you know, the first
time a friend saw a black man,they gave him five years.
But what?
really happened was he got gracebecause I could have charged
him with attempted murder.
He would have been doing 15 to20 years, where I decided to
just charge him with aggravatedbattery with a deadly weapon and
get five years.
It's all about the way it'spresented.
I know that with my backgroundwhere I grew up, if I didn't

(41:11):
come to the state attorney'soffice and actually get to know
a lot of officers, get to knowhow the system works on the
inside, get to know a lot ofofficers, get to know how the
system works on the inside, I'llbe feeling the same way that we
never get any second chance, wenever get any third chance, we
never get any grace.
But right now we'll say for allthe people listening, they can
come off and talk to me all theywant to.
That is not true.
We give a lot of grace but itseems like no matter what we do,

(41:34):
we're going to be not trusted.
So we have all these communityefforts.
I'm a leader of the CommunityCrime Strategy Unit, where you
might see me all over townalways trying to create better
relationships.
But it's like trying to eat anelephant, one bite at a time,
like no matter what we do,nobody really still trusts us.
So I'm not sure what theanswers are.
I'm just rambling now.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
No, but, octavius, hearing that you know that I
have worked for the schoolsystem, which is a totally
different system and same typeof deal with whatever they do
inside of there.
Hearing you come from the stateattorney's office, then leave,
then come back.
I came from outside, went intothe district, left back out.
For me being inside the system,there was so much that I could

(42:21):
do to your point, but I had tobe fearless in doing that and I
was around a lot of people whojust kind of went with the
status quo.
They were excited to have theirjob, make their little money,
wanted the next promotion andpotentially did not attempt to
do the harder things or the morecontroversial things or the
things that would actuallybetter more children, because it

(42:45):
took a little too much work andthey weren't trying to do that
anymore.
I'm curious about attorneys andwhat you see now and whether or
not.
If you y'all you can probablyedit this out depending on your
answer but what you see aroundthe state attorney's office yes,
you are there and and thanksfor everything that you do

(43:07):
inside and outside in terms ofwhat you see and how you
advocate and how you take yourlife experiences and and and use
those in your decision-making.
However, do you see a lot ofthat?
Do you are your peers?
I know Melissa Nelson thatsounds great compared to the
nameless person that must'vebeen there before, but how are

(43:30):
you feeling about the peoplethat are working at the state
attorney's office right now interms of a fair shake for who
gets there now like?
Has the culture changed?
Are your colleagues trustworthy, for lack of a better word?
Um?

Speaker 3 (43:44):
that's that's a hard answer.
That's I know, jasmine, butthat's that's hard.
I don't know every.
I can't tell you everybody'sname talk, let alone know what
they're feeling in their heart.
I couldn't tell you that, but Iknow this.
My phone rings and I get emailsand letters from people who I
don't I'm not on their case.
They're just black people inthe community whose son got

(44:05):
arrested and they said write tothis man and I tell him this I'm
like you need to pay me morebecause I'm doing work that
ain't part of my caseload.
I'm doing this behind the sceneswork to see, and the question
that these parents andgrandparents are asking is is my
son being treated fairly?
And I will take the case, lookat it.
Sometimes they don't like myanswer.

(44:27):
I know it's a need for peoplein our community who don't go to
courts every day and don't seethis kind of thing.
So their loved one is facingserious time and they want some
opinion about how the system isworking.
Then I do spare time for thatand so I just do the best I can
to answer questions.
But ultimately you're asking isthere still an issue?

(44:47):
I don't think all the people whohave worked under the previous
administration are gone.
There's several people who arestill here and you wonder
whether you know their mentality.
They were hired and trainedunder previous administration.
Is that different now?
I question that sometimes, butI don't have the time to be
running behind everybody either,and seeing all I can do is the

(45:08):
best I can do what's in front ofme and then make sure our, our
major decisions are as fair andjust as positive.
I see the measures I'm talkingmajor decision of whether to put
a juvenile in an adult court,whether to seek the death
penalty.
Those are the major decisionsin the office of which we've got
to have the most sound judgment.

(45:30):
We need more representation onthis side, and I say true
representation, you know.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
I'll leave it at that .
But okay, right, I'm sorry, no,no, no, no, I mean it kind of
leads me into a.
You know, it wouldn't be ourpodcast if we don't go
completely in the left fieldhere.
So it kind of leads me intothat a little bit.
But I think of a lot of thisstuff.
Sometimes I think what makessome communities uncomfortable

(45:57):
is the discretion that you'retalking about in terms of
prosecution and things like that.
And you know, when I thinkabout technology now and all the
different ways that we canquantify things, matter of fact,
speeding tickets is probablythe best example I never could
understand.
You know why we've been playingpolice officer being on this

(46:20):
street versus that street.
And you know I'm going to try tospeed in this highway and not
the other ones?
I mean, we could put up camerasall over the city and we could
just you know if you speed in azone, we'll just send you the
ticket, right and it seems as if, like, we know we can do that.
but we'd rather just make itthis kind of like one off thing
where the police officer canstop you depending on the street

(46:41):
that you're on.
But I guess what I'm saying isI feel like, with some of these
things, I know, no two crimesare the same, but it feels like
we should be able to almost getcloser to quantifying hey if
this, yeah, if this thinghappens, this is what's going to
happen.
Hey, if this, yeah, if thisthing happens, this is what's
going to happen.
You know, I'm not trying toautomate the prosecution out of

(47:06):
a job, but in some ways I'mthinking it shouldn't be a phone
call that comes from you, fromthat mother, to say is my son
being treated fairly, I mean,based on the numbers and this
and that?
And yeah, everybody in thissituation when these things
happen, they get that.
Why don't we have those systems?

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Because it's been tried.
Let me give you a couple ofexamples.
And you tell me, can you seethe difference?
And this is aside from all the?
How young is the person?
How injured was the victim?
Was there a gun used?
Was the gun threatened to beused?
Was the gun fired?
All those things come into playwith a different crime.
But so say you get a robbery.

(47:41):
I'll start with a robbery.
I'll use two examples.
One's a robbery.
I come to you, right, I got agun.
Give me your wallet.
You give me the wallet, I gooff.
That's the robbery.
Another guy, depending on who itcomes to.
You give me a wallet.

(48:01):
It's a wallet.
Looks in it.
Hey man, I got your address, Iknow where you live.
I'm gonna blow your head off.
You call the police, I'm gonnablow your head off.
You understand me?
Okay, all right.
And I got your id with me rightnow I'll come back kill you and
your kids, but all right, I'mgone.
Same crime on paper is going tobe an armed robbery with no
firearm.
No, I mean no discharge with afirearm.
Right, we are going to treatthe one who gave more threats
and put that victim with morefear, put more trauma on them a

(48:23):
longer sentence versus a personwho just took the money,
whatever.
Another thing that came up alot and I say this to Barlow, it
was Barlow possession ofcocaine.
You know I was doing these kindof crimes 15, 20 years ago
Possession of okay.
Right, you find somebody andthey look a little tattered and

(48:44):
you got them with two pieces ofcrack and they got a pipe to
smoke it, right.
That gives you one image ofwhat kind of person we're
dealing with there, right, andthey get that's okay in charge,
fair for their charge, and theyget some kind of treatment
program Black, white orotherwise.
They get some kind of treatmentprogram Black, white or
otherwise, they get a treatmentprogram.
Now you go to another guy.
He's about 25 years old,wearing a jogging suit, looking

(49:05):
kind of well-dressed, not ratty,right, and he had a cigar tube
cut in half and he got 10 piecesof crack inside the cigar tube
right.
It's still below 28 ounces 28grams rather than an ounce 28
grams.
So it's not trafficking, it'spossession of cocaine charge.
He gets two years in prison.
Now Barlow was bringing thisgentleman up, but that's what

(49:27):
the situation was.
Why does this man get two yearsin prison and that guy gets
drug-affected probation or getssome kind of treatment?
It's because we're dealing witha user versus a dealer, and I
think that's obvious when youread the police report, but it's
not obvious when you only lookat the charged crime.
And that's the difference too.
And also, what it doesn't takeinto account is the grace.

(49:48):
And I'll tell you this, ronnie.
So a young kid is charged witharmed robbery, like I explained
to you, right?
But he's super young, right?
We're going to give him,instead of giving him the gun
charge and giving him a minimumof 10 years, we're going to give
him a six-year youthfuloffender sentence on a lesser
charge of unarmed robbery.

(50:08):
Follow me now.
So on paper it looks like hepledged an unarmed robbery, got
six years in prison, and thenthis guy over here who had an
unarmed robbery from the jumpright, nothing higher than that,
and he got probation.
It looks like two disparatesentences really.
But this one over here.
We reduced it from an armedrobbery, giving that kid a break
.
So we give that kid a break,put him in a youthful offense
sentence.
He gets six years instead often or whatever, and it looks

(50:29):
like when you compare the two,it looks like we did the one
with six years dirty.
When you ask him and hisparents, you know what I'm
saying.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
So yeah, but, but I guess I guess that's my but,
that's what I'm.
I'm curious, I mean cause, andI see, I see the logic, um and
you're not.
You know, I, I, I absolutely um, get basketball.
We know, if we look at all thethings, we have a certain

(50:58):
opinion about that.
But I guess I'm saying if weall knew that if you jump the
fence, I don't care if you getin the basketball or you run up
in the place and shooting it up,right, you're going to get
charged this right.
If you get caught with thedrugs, I don't care if it's in
the cigar or you got the pipewith you, you're going to be

(51:20):
charged this right.
And I feel like in some waysthat can even even help prevent
crime, because there is nowiggle room like university of
Florida, One of the things, uh,when they were kind of doing the
affirmative action, protestsand things like that, when I was
at a UF, my biggest thing waslike um, I'm actually an
advocate of taking race out ofthe applications as well.
Right, I mean, let's not docollege applications based on

(51:40):
race.
I 100% support that.
But I also support don't checkgender, don't check whether or
not your parents went to schoolhere.
Don't check whether or notyou're on the football team or
the basketball team or thetennis team, right?
Just take GPAs and test scoresand draw a line.
Right, accept only those thingsand draw a line.

(52:03):
But nobody wants to do that,right?
We want to-.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
We can't do that.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
We can't do that right.
We want to accept certainthings and not others.
So I guess my point is in thelaw scenario.
Why can't we just say look, ifyou jump the fence, it's this.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
You know, if you jump the fence, it's this.
If you get caught with thedrugs, it's that.
We can't do that and you don'twant us to.
You don't want us to.
I'm not saying you, I'm sayingpeople who have a conscience
about prosecution don't want usto, because 17-year-old kid,
18-year-old kid throws a rock ata bus, that's shooting deadly
missiles.
Or you could be outsidesomebody's house and shoot in

(52:39):
the house, that's shootingdeadly missiles.
Those are vastly different.
We have to have people, humansnot the computers humans that
get inside the facts of a caseto determine what's fair and
what's not fair.
So we need somebody to look atthat little boy who went in the
yard for the basketball and sayI know, technically it's a
burglary, but we're going tocharge him with a misdemeanor

(53:02):
petty theft and a misdemeanortrespass.
You got to have somebody tomake that determination and say
we are not.
We know we're being too heavyhanded in that circumstance and
we're not going to do that.
And that doesn't just benefitBlack people, that benefits
everybody.
We can't have prosecutors justsaying well, he qualifies as a
burglar.
No, we don't want that.

(53:23):
We don't want that, nobodywants that.
Because if we started doingthat, then you're basically
criminalizing every behavior.
I don't think anybody wantsthat.
I don't care.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
But I think, if nobody wants it, if everybody
who's on the prosecution siderepresents your community Now my
community, where I only have anOctavius Holiday there to go to
and my thing is like, well,yeah, let's just set up the
cameras at anybody's speed andthey get a ticket, Because we
get tickets anyway.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
We go into jail anyway, with criminal punishment
you have to be able to readbetween the lines and see what's
fair, and I don't think goingsame punishment for every crime
or charging a defendant everydefendant with the same crime.
I don't think that's fairness.
There are variances that happeninside of each crime.
That has to be examined by ahuman and not by a computer.
So ultimately, if your childgot in trouble for that

(54:17):
basketball, you don't want themcharged with a burglary right.
Nobody wants that right and tothe most rational of us all, we
wouldn't think that's fair,right.
That's not the same as goinginside somebody's house at 2
o'clock in the morning, nomatter how we look at it.
You know, going insidesomebody's house two o'clock in
the morning, stealing a jurywe're stealing a basketball and

(54:37):
bar.
They lie outside in the yard isnowhere equal to one another
one should be in prison, theother one should be misdemeanor
prosecution, utmost in probation, and so that's what I was
bringing up.
When you have diversity ofprosecutors, you're able to
better determine that instead ofI like to, I like to fire

(54:57):
prosecutors who are always harsh, who don't have any, our job
can't be done.
Well, you don't have compassionat some point to say I know the
victim is screaming for a yearin jail, but it's not a year
case.
I'll give them a chance tospeak to the court, but I don't
think that's a year in jail, butit's not a year case.
I'll give them a chance tospeak to the court, but I don't
think that's a year case.
They were like well, you're ahorrible person, mr Holliday,
you can say all you want to.
Okay, I do this job to be asfair as possible.

(55:21):
Some people are going to sayI'm too harsh on this case.
Some people are going to sayI'm too heavy on this case.
I'm trying to be a bettersociety.
We just, we just harsh acrossthe board.

Speaker 4 (55:32):
that's not going to work at all do you all use any
type of technology to help pullthese details down?
Because I can't help but thinkabout and I'm novice to all of
it, but I think about chat, gptand how.
At this point this thing knowsexactly what I, how I should say
it.
It sounds like me.
When I don't like it, I'm likeyou know, I'll that Soften the

(55:52):
tone and then it'll like fix itand things like that.
Is there not?
Do you all use anything whereyou take the details of these
cases or something, scanning it,pulling out you know whether or
not it was, you know a gunfireor not a gunfire or just
whatever the deep not sayingthat humans then shouldn't come
behind it and check it?
But is there anything that hasbeen automated about how these

(56:16):
cases work?
Then the human comes in to makeor review everything.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
We've had research done.
We've been audited as an officejust a few years ago by an
independent agency to seewhether we have basically racism
or discrimination built intoour practices.
But no, we don't have anythingautomated.
I don't think there's asubstitute for it.
They'll be getting a file,opening it up, see what's
alleged, see what the criminalrecord is, hear what the

(56:45):
victim's position is right andwhat they want to see happen.
A lot of my cases are somebodybeat up, their grandmother.
I got elder abuse.
You need grandma downstairs sothey can take some money and run
and go buy some drugs.
And should that guy go toprison?
Maybe it was a stranger, butgrandma is 80 years old and

(57:06):
wants him to get drug help andpsychological help.
So I'm factoring in what thevictim feels, the record of the
defendant and seeing if I can'tfashion something where the
defendant's getting help and I'mnot making it so that the
grandma don't see the kidanymore for the rest of her life
.
So a lot of that can't becomputerized.
That's my long answer to that.

(57:26):
You have to have people withthe right mindset doing the job,
and that's part of my job too,to get more people in the seats
that have the right mindset.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
Well, you know, the hundred does coding and color
and the kids are getting realgood.
So I feel like we need to putthem on.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
We need to we need to meet them with the state
attorney's office.

Speaker 4 (57:44):
Let the kids crack the code.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
See if there's something that that should be
automated.

Speaker 4 (57:55):
Yeah, I won't lie, and looking at your bio, I could
probably talk to you two morehours and of course that's not
our podcast framework.
So I'm going to have to justask as we try to conclude it,
looking at all these topics thatare here that we didn't even
get to get into.
I'd love to just ask you, basedon being on the inside.
Something you said earlier wasyeah, you have these optics from

(58:18):
the outside.
What's on the news, what you'rethinking, what you know when
you make these determinations.
But on the inside, there'sadditional information that you
have and a viewpoint that youhave based on being exposed to
the facts Knowing that you have,and a viewpoint that you have
based on being exposed to thefacts Facts, knowing that you
have hate crimes, humantrafficking.
that really kind of sparked aninterest for me that we didn't

(58:39):
even get to.
What do we not know?
And I guess for me I'd like foryou to just have this
opportunity, based on all thethings you see, to make sure
that our listeners hear what'sreally happening, that you,
being in the community, you mayknow that we just have no idea.
We have no idea what's reallyhappening.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
What would those you ask me to scare the community
right now.

Speaker 4 (59:02):
Yeah, I am actually.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
I am, we didn't know we was asking you that.
But yeah, go ahead, scare usyeah we need to know.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
No, I think young people and um with the internet,
um, and it's been happening fora while, but the threats back
and forth and the retaliationsback and forth it's not always
shootings, you know, it's notwith somebody.
The death make the headlines,but we have so much um violence
toward one another so I don'tknow that.

(59:32):
That bothers me.
Um, there's a lot morefinancial crimes now.
A lot of people aren't puttinga gun in your face and robbing
you, but they are taking yourpersonal information and using
that and um, so I get you knowwhat.
Really, I tell you a crowd thatreally I gotta do elder abuse.
So the one that makes me mad,um, all that make me mad.
This one makes me hot boiling.

(59:53):
Where you're a nurse or you're aCNA and you got someone about
to die.
You know they're in death.
I just got this got one kidjust like this.
They're in hospice or they'rein death bed.
You're supposed to be caringfor them in their last moments
of life and you take theirpocketbook or whatever their
wallet and take their creditcards and stuff and you you go
spend $2,000 at Best Buy andyou're going to treat the family

(01:00:16):
to whatever.
That's not the same as going toWalmart and stealing a TV man,
that's.
You got somebody that mostvulnerable thing and I really do
hate that.
So community out there.
I know my mom, you know, passedlast year and you know we need
people to care for her and mydad before that.
You don't even know who totrust anymore.

(01:00:36):
You go through an agency.
We got so many crimes wherethey go through an agency and
the agency didn't vet the personwell enough to stop them.
They got prior thefts andexportations and they're getting
jobs and now we got our peoplejust being victimized.
And it's not race.
It's not race Because I gotdefendants of all colors doing

(01:00:59):
that same thing.
Or say your grandparent isgetting up in age, they share
the right mind, but you knowthey're slipping a little bit.
They're in a gray area.
If you don't keep an eye onthem and visit them all the time
and really be in their lives,people will come in that gray
area and get money from them andthey're willingly giving it to
them.

(01:01:19):
So it's not even a crime, butit's unethical, right, and so
it's right in that spot wherecriminals live, where they can
take advantage of older adultsand live where they can take
advantage of um, of older adults, and so, um, I don't want to
scare the whole public, I'm justsaying you got to be diligent
about who you let around yourloved ones, I mean your kids and
your uh, the most vulnerablepopulations are your children,

(01:01:41):
the disabled and the elderly,and they get victimized so much,
and it's not always to theviolence that people are slick
and getting slicker about howthey do it, and it's um it's
aggravating, but I, I can't look, I can't even talk about a
certain topic.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
You promised me I could talk about this other
topic you know, we went what'sthe other topic?

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
the other topic is black people specifically, who
got their degrees and they all,you know, they graduated, got
their money.
It's the, my four, no morementality.
So Ronnie and I do 100 BlackMen.
We do different things we doand it's always the same 10, 15
individuals doing all the workin the organization.
And we know we got so manyfriends out there who on Friday

(01:02:24):
they go home, they do the crabball, whatever.
They don't do no work in thecommunity and they act like our
people ain't struggling andhurting community and they act
like our people ain't strugglingand hurting like bro.
You know I'm saying when I was ateenager I knew what I was
gonna do in this, okay, what myoccupation was.
I knew I was gonna do so I'mpreaching now, now, um, that's
my, that's my preach right there, that everybody and I scream my
, I scream my, I'm the boss ofthis and I scream I've been

(01:02:44):
screaming our social action,share.
What in the hell?
You don't plan this fraternityand you don't do nothing.
I'm talking about nothing forthe frat, nothing in the hell.
You don't plan this fraternityand you don't do nothing.
I'm talking about nothing forthe frat, nothing in the
community, nothing in the city.

Speaker 4 (01:02:55):
Really, Well, tell them what to do then.
All right, they're listeningright now.
Oh, I heard Ox interview.
Oh, that was great.
He talked about all the things.
But now here I am with mydegrees, taking care of my own
family, eating my own crab boil,minding my own business.
What do you want me to do?

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Where's your passion?
Has your grandmother beenmistreated?
Do you see?
Kids need mentoring.
Where's your passion?
Feed the homeless domesticviolence.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
There's so many avenues where you can Stop on
those four yes, yes, yes and yes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
What do I do?
Where do I go?
It's organization.
Just Google it right, you canvolunteer for Hubbard House,
it's that hard.
Hubbardbard House is a namethat's a name for domestic
violence, abuse.
I'm saying that everyone caresabout something and if you don't
care about something, just livelong enough.
It'll affect your life.
So find something you'repassionate about and then give
beyond yourself.
Just be unselfish in yourliving right.

(01:03:47):
That's where we end with.
Be unselfish about your life.
Take care of yours, love yours,give them everything you can
give them.
But then I know, as far as ourpeople, it's incumbent upon
people who can to do a littlebit more.
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
And I think we got to stop thinking about like it's
some extracurricular thing.
Ultimately, what happens in thecommunity is going to impact us
some way somehow.
I think folks need to be ableto make that connection.
If they can you almost feelobligated you better go do
something in the community.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
It's an obligation.
I was doing an internship in2001 or so for a law firm in
Orlando.
My two partners, my twointernees with me other interns
were like you're a Black person.
I was like, yes, they're.
Like, do you feel obligated togive back to the Black community
when?
You get out and take it andthey were asking me.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
I was like wow, you're Black.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Of course.
Of course I feel like I got itback.
They were like I accept that Iknow where I come from.
So, anyway, leave it at that.
I love the work y'all do Loveyou both.
I owe so much to Ronnie King ona personal level, so he knows
about that.
And then my LJ17 classmate, TiaLeathers.
I knew from the beginning, Tia,that you're my girl.

Speaker 4 (01:05:08):
That's right In a platonic sense if my wife listen
.
Hey, baby it ain't all that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
We love you too back to back in that hotel.
I'll give you the voice aroundhere.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
We'll leave it out not for that kind of party.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
This is my brother through and through for sure,
because apparently, like come onnow.

Speaker 4 (01:05:31):
Not for that kind of party, not for that kind of this
is my brother, through andthrough Right For sure we
appreciate you Because,apparently, like, come on, now
Recruit us some AKAs please.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Oh, that's easy.
Okay, all right, anyway, y'allgood, yeah, yeah, we're good,
that was perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Appreciate you.
All right, I'm going.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
All right, I like to be educated, but I'm so
frustrated.
Hello to my loneliness.
I guess that endurance is bliss.
Take me back to before the noonRewind.
Take it out of queue.
Innocence can be a human's game.
Signed up for the hall of shame.
I wish I knew how much I missedNot knowing that we're all

(01:06:26):
screwed when we play our rolesand ignore the problems.
I like to be away and morepatient.

(01:06:49):
Stay up.
I feel so outdated.
How can we look the other way?
Sun is out, but the sky is gray.
What would happen if I took achance?
It's always hard at firstglance.
I don't wanna, but I know Igotta do it.
The truth is hard to swallow.
I think I'll chew it.
Yeah yeah, the truth is hard toswallow.

(01:07:31):
I think I'll chew it.
I wish I knew how much I missnot knowing that we're all
screwed when we play our rolesand you're the problem.
I wish I knew how much I missnot knowing that we're all

(01:08:05):
screwed when we play our rolesand ignore the problems.
I wish I knew.