March 24, 2025 • 62 mins
An intimate conversation with Dr. Johnnetta Cole reveals the extraordinary journey of a woman who has repeatedly made history throughout the years. From entering Fisk University at just 15 years old to becoming the first African-American woman president of Spelman College, Dr. Cole's life exemplifies resilience, vision, and purposeful action.
Dr. Cole shares the remarkable story of her journey to presidency at Spelman—a position she initially resisted. This fascinating tale of destiny and determination offers a glimpse into how pivotal moments can shape our life's direction when we remain open to possibilities beyond our own imagination.
With ancestral knowledge that traces back to Senegal—Dr. Cole embodies the concept of Sankofa: "You've got to look back in order to go forward." Her connection to American Beach and A.L. Lewis (Florida's first Black millionaire) demonstrates how knowing our history empowers our future action.
Addressing today's challenging social climate, Dr. Cole offers perspective that only her decades of experience can provide: She advocates for hope, inspiration, and activism rather than despair or retreat.
Her parting wisdom for younger generations emphasizes self-care as foundational to activism. Listen now to be inspired by the living legacy of a woman who has transformed institutions, shattered barriers, and continues to light the way forward with the eternal truth that "we who believe in freedom cannot stop until it comes."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Hey, good afternoon there, Dr Cole.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good afternoon.
I had trouble.
I had to call on my hubby, whois my tech support.
All right, how are you all?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Good, how are?
You, I'm pretty good, dr Cole,I'm so excited to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Is all well.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
All is well.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I appreciate you joining us.
Dr Cole, yeah, we've beenlooking forward to this.
Tia said that she fixed you acrab tray.
She said she.
She didn't crab trade, she saidshe.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
She threw me down with it.
The queen of the crab boil,that is her new title.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I have to ask, though, whatkind of crab we talking about?
Snow crabs, dungeon?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
crabs, blue crabs, we had both, and everything else
went in it, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
That might be a new side hustle to you.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It could be True Florida girl.
I think I was more excited toprepare the crab than for her to
eat the crab.
I was so happy.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
We were outrageously into them.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Dr Cole, we are so happy that you are joining us
for the Scratchwork EDU podcastand we've been doing this neat
thing.
So we have been using ChatGPT.
Have you ever heard of that?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I am technologically challenged, so the answer is no.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Okay.
Well, chatgpt is a bit likeGoogle, but on steroids.
So we've been putting inside ofthat system.
Give us a bio on and then we'llstate the person and then we'll
read it and see what ChatGPThas for them.
So we're hoping to do the samefor you.
(02:33):
So I don't have your actual bio, but I'm going to put your name
into ChatGPT and I'm going tosay we're interviewing Dr
Jonetta Betch Cole.
Please give me her bio, andthen at the end you just kind of
tell me how it was, if it wasgood or not.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
All right, are we ready?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Ready.
I'll tell you what it says WithDr Jonetta Betch-Cole.
Dr Jonetta Betch-Cole is adistinguished American
anthropologist, educator andmuseum director renowned for her
groundbreaking leadership inacademia and cultural
institutions.
Born on October 19th blah blahblah in Jacksonville, florida.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
You can say it I don't get it 1936 in.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Jacksonville, Florida .
That's right.
She embarked on her highereducation journey at the age of
15, initially attending FiskUniversity before transferring
to Oberlin College, where sheearned a Bachelor of Arts in
Sociology in 1957.
She furthered her studies atNorthwestern University,
(03:44):
obtaining both a master's and aPhD in anthropology by 1967.
Dr Cole's academic careerincludes teaching and
administrative roles atinstitutions such as Washington
State University, the Universityof Massachusetts and Hunter
College.
In 1987, she made history asthe first African-American woman
(04:10):
to serve as president ofSpelman College, significantly
enhancing its endowment andacademic reputation during her
decade-long tenure, she laterled Bennett College from 2002 to
2007, becoming the onlyindividual to preside over both
historically Black colleges forwomen in the United States.
(04:33):
Beyond academia, Dr Coledirected the Smithsonian
National Museum of African Artfrom 2009 to 2017, of African
Art from 2009 to 2017,reflecting her deep commitment
to cultural preservation andeducation.
She has also been a trailblazerin corporate governance, being
(04:53):
the first African American tochair the Board of United Way of
America and serving on theboards of major corporations
like Home Depot.
Throughout her industriouscareer, Dr Cole has been a
steadfast advocate for diversity, equity, accessibility and
inclusion, addressing issuesconcerning Africa and the
(05:15):
diaspora.
She has authored and editednumerous publications and has
been recognized with over 50honorary degrees.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
No, no and has been recognized with over 50.
It's now over 70 honorarydegrees, so I'm afraid it's a
little outdated.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Let's get it right.
Let's get it right.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
With over 70 honorary degrees and numerous awards for
her contributions to educationand social justice.
Awards for her contributions toeducation and social justice.
Dr Cole's enduring legacycontinues to inspire future
generations through herdedication to leadership,
cultural understanding and therelentless pursuit of equality.
(05:58):
What do you say about that?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Say about that Wow, that's what I say about it.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I say it's work I've been called to do.
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Dr Cole, anything in that bio strike you as I don't
know if I would have said itthat way, or did they miss
anything that you would have putin your bio that they didn't
have?
I'm not sure if they graduate.
That description graduated mefrom Oberlin College in 1967.
It should be 1957.
Just because I'm a stickler foraccuracy, I think it's.
I think it's as good as a biocan be.
(06:47):
Sure, look, an individualshould never be captured totally
by a bio.
It's the work that matters, soI don't think we ought to spend
any more time talking about it.
(07:07):
That's what I say.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Perfect, you know.
What I want to talk about ishow did you end up, at 15 years
old, starting this particularhigher ed journey?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I can respond very quickly and very accurately.
My parents believed ineducation like the devil
believes in sin.
That's a lot of belief.
So they sent me off to thefirst grade when I was five.
(07:44):
Sent me off to the first gradewhen I was five and oh, how
fortunate I was to end up.
Yes, it was a segregated school, but it was Miss Bunny Vance's
classroom.
And then I went to Boylan Havenin Jacksonville At that time an
(08:09):
all-girls school under theownership of the Methodist
Church.
But then after that, I beggedmy parents.
But then after that I begged myparents.
Could I please in my 11th year,11th grade, sorry, could I go
(08:31):
to Stanton?
And they agreed.
So I was so happy I was playingin the band the French horn.
I could not have been happier.
And then one day my parentssaid well, we made a decision.
You're going downtown andyou're going to take a test.
(08:55):
If you pass it, you're going togo to an early entrance program
at Fisk University.
Program at Fisk University.
Brother Ronnie, sister Tia, Ididn't want to go to Fisk, I
didn't want to go anywhere.
I wanted to stay at Stanton.
But like an obedient daughter,I went downtown.
(09:21):
But then I was stupid.
Think what I could have done IfI really didn't want to go.
All I had to do was check thewrong answers.
No, no, no, no, no.
I checked all the right boxes,and so that is how, at age 15, I
(09:46):
went to Fisk.
Now let me just say and thenI'll be done with this.
it was an era when, across ourcountry, many African Americans
were going into these earlyentrance programs.
I was 15 when I went to Fisk,maynard Jackson was 14 when he
(10:11):
went to Morehouse, and so thatwas, for that period of time, an
enormously importantrecognition.
An enormously importantrecognition that in the
African-American community, likein other people's communities,
(10:31):
there were very studious youngblack people who, I would say,
were not only into books but whohad also been taught that they
(10:51):
had to be of service.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Absolutely beautiful.
I think about your parents.
You know, these days we askchildren so much about what they
want to do.
Do you want to do this, do youwant to do that?
Your parents say you're goingto take the test and then, if
you pass, this is what'shappening next.
Thinking back on that, why doyou think they wanted you to do
(11:17):
that?
So, knowing that you probablycould pass and could get into
college early?
And you're saying that theearly entrance was happening
across, I guess several peoplegetting that opportunity.
What was their passion behindmaking sure you were one of
those?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, let me first say that my parents were very,
very fortunate Back in the day,very fortunate Back in the day.
(11:56):
Those two black people went toHBCUs and got college degrees.
My mother went to Wilberforcenow Wilberforce University my
father went to Knox College inKnoxville, Tennessee, and so
they knew the value of an HBCUeducation and they thought here
(12:28):
is this nerdy daughter of ourswho can't get herself out of a
book.
This will be really good forher.
There's a sadness about thisthat I must share.
First, let me say I loved Fisk.
I was in my element, whether itwas being able to go into that
(12:54):
collection of black art or go tothe library where Arnaud
Bontemps, of all people, was thehead librarian.
But it was a period of greatsadness and trauma.
That was the year while I wasat this that my father died
(13:20):
unexpectedly and I was mydaddy's baby girl.
No, I wasn't the talentedmusical genius, the beach lady,
my older sister, and no, I wouldnot become a great jazz drummer
(13:48):
like my baby brother wouldbecome.
But I have to say that nothinghad ever happened to me that was
so sad as losing my daddyhappened to me.
That was so sad as losing mydaddy.
So my mom and my sister againthe famous beach lady got
(14:14):
together and said how about, ifyou go to Oberlin, your sister
is there.
She's a double major in voiceand piano in the conservatory.
Be near your sister, It'll help.
And it did so.
That's how I left Fisk afteronly one year, Went to Oberlin
(14:42):
and it was there that I did myundergraduate degree.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
I just want to highlight the resilience.
You knew what that meant toboth your parents, and even in
the absence of your father,something tells me you never
considered stopping just becauseyou were sad.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Oh, that's absolutely true, Because I had been taught
one of the lessons, the many,many lessons that one can learn
in the African-Americancommunity.
I had been taught that the way,no one of the ways that you can
(15:28):
honor someone that you reallylove is by doing well and doing
good, especially by doing good.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I absolutely love that.
Dr Cole, you know and I feel alittle ashamed saying this and
I'm not originally fromJacksonville, but I've had the
pleasure of working with you onthis AL Lewis Opportunity and
Impact Fund and it was reallythrough that that I learned
about the story of AL Lewis andobviously I had heard about and
(16:09):
knew about you and your greatwork but didn't know about that
connection between you and ALLewis and that whole history
with American Beach.
I know when, when I went outthere with you and some others
and kind of got a little bitmore information about that, I
personally was inspired.
You know, not only about theindividual success of AL Lewis
(16:34):
and those things, but just thatentire community and Black folks
doing for each other andproviding for each other.
You know, if you don't mind,you know taking maybe a moment
just to talk about that and youknow I'm sure that has some
connection in terms of whatyou've done throughout your life
(16:56):
, but you know, any thoughts onthat that time?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, first of all, I do want to say that and I'm
being very sincere I don't thinkthe AL Lewis, black Opportunity
and Impact Fund could do therighteous work it is doing
(17:22):
without your voice, work it isdoing without your voice.
I am a deep, deep, deep, deepbeliever in intergenerationality
and you bring into that settingall of the learnings and the
(17:42):
excitement and the possibilitiesof a younger generation than I.
But let me just say howextraordinarily fortunate I am
to know so much about where Ihave come from.
(18:05):
And because I do, I know howwretched it is, how very harmful
it is when we are told weshouldn't look back.
We don't need to keepconcentrating on our history and
(18:28):
our story and their story.
As that wonderful Adinkra fromGhana says, sankofa, you've got
to look back in order to goforward, back in order to go
forward.
So, my dearest brother, ronnie,I know you know an incredible
(18:52):
amount about AL Lewis.
After all, you wouldn't havesigned up for all of this if you
didn't.
But what you and Tia may notknow is that I can trace the
maternal side of my family backto a young girl.
(19:19):
Wolof was her ethnic group.
She was of a royal family inSenegal.
Her name was Anta MedijinN'Djai, born in 1793.
(19:40):
When she was 13, she wascaptured, shackled, marched from
her home in Senegal to thatoff-the-coast place called Goree
(20:01):
Island, where there is a doorof no return.
I have stood in that door andwept like a baby.
She was pushed through thatdoor and onto a ship and thus
began her horrific experience ofthe Middle Passage.
(20:26):
Andemajigin Jai was offloadedin Havana, cuba.
Put a pin in that she's placedon the auction block.
(20:51):
From about 15 minutes away fromwhere I'm seated right now in
the American Beach community hadgone a British enslaver by the
name of Zephaniah Kingsley, andyou may have heard of the
Kingsley Plantation and you mayhave heard of the Kingsley
Plantation.
He went to Havana, cuba, forthe explicit purpose of buying
(21:14):
human beings.
He saw Anta Majidin Jai and hesaid I must have her.
He bought her, impregnated herbefore they reached the Kingsley
Plantation.
Now why have I taken up so muchof our time to tell you?
(21:51):
Abraham Lincoln Lewis married.
He had two wives in succession.
His first wife was Mary FrancesSammas.
Who was she?
She was the great-granddaughterof Zephaniah Kingsley and
(22:15):
Antimagician Jai.
So my knowledge of my ancestorson the maternal side and I've
got a lot of work to do tobalance it with my father's side
(22:36):
, which is German, which iswhere Betch comes from.
That was a gift given to me tobe a descendant of these
extraordinary human beings NowRonnie and Tia.
(23:03):
I believe if you're going totell the story, you got to tell
the whole story, even the partsthat are not good.
So I'm going to bring closureon this by saying Antum Adjidjit
Njai, who became one ofZephaniah Kingsley's four common
(23:27):
law wives.
Common Law wives Became sowealthy, so central to him In
the running of the plantation.
I have no pride in this.
In fact it is a point of greatconcern that she actually owned
herself A few slaves or a fewenslaved people.
(23:51):
But we got to tell the wholestory, including the engagement
of African people in theenslavement trade.
So AL Lewis marries AntonMagidgenin Njai and Zephaniah
(24:13):
Kingsley's great-granddaughter.
He was born in 1865.
That's why his recently freedparents named him Abraham
Lincoln.
He was born very poor, but ALLewis went on, out of sheer grit
(24:37):
and God's grace, to join withsix other black men in founding
the first insurance company inthe state of Florida.
And let me tell you howAfrocentric he was, because,
(25:01):
given the task and he was ofnaming that newly formed company
he could have named it thecolored or the Negro Company
(25:22):
which became the Afro-Americanlife insurance company he chose
Afro-American.
It's 1901.
Where did he get thisAfrocentrism from?
It's what drove him, with hissecond wife, to go to Egypt and
to see the pyramids with his owneyes.
(25:42):
And so AL Lewis also becameFlorida's first black
millionaire.
But, far more importantly, hewas one of the great
(26:02):
philanthropists of his era.
He believed, as he taught me,doing for others is just the
rent you got to pay for yourroom on earth.
The rent you got to pay foryour room on earth.
And so AL Lewis set anextraordinary example for the
organization that you, brotherRonnie, and I have been
(26:22):
associated with.
If we have some means, how darewe not figure out how others
can be where we are?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Beautiful, beautiful and to your point, you know,
kind of looking back in time,one of the things that I got
from that whole story sometimeswe're thinking that whatever
worked back then, you know,wouldn't necessarily work now.
But that story about what heand those other brothers did, I
(27:01):
mean, I feel like in a lot ofways, that's exactly what we
need to be doing right now,almost verbatim.
But you know, I must ask you,you know, with all of the recent
kind of current events that'skind of happening in America,
particularly as it relates toAfrican-Americans and we're
talking about your, your historydating back to Africa we have a
(27:26):
lot of African-Americans thatyou know we're nervous right now
.
We have a lot ofAfrican-Americans that you know
we're nervous right now.
I mean myself included.
Sometimes, I mean you're hearingmore people now than ever
saying, man, we might have toget up out of here or we need to
move back to Africa, or, andtrying to come up with solutions
.
Now, me personally, you know Ican't help it Right, I am an
(27:47):
African-American, this is myhome in a lot of ways.
This is all I know.
What are your thoughts as itrelates to particularly our
African-American experience andhow we should be conducting
ourselves in these really tryingtimes and is there any
(28:14):
relationship or any coordinationthat we should be thinking
about strategically back withour brothers and sisters in
Africa.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, it doesn't take much to know to own that we are
in profoundly troubling times,are in profoundly troubling
times, and so the inevitablequestion is so what is to be
(28:41):
done?
We, as African Americans, as welisten to and experience what
is going on in our country, wecould become so depressed that
we just say, look, I've got todo one of two things I've got to
(29:02):
either find my little cornerover here or I've got to leave
this country.
I think neither is what weshould do.
If ever there was a time whenwe have got to figure out how we
(29:26):
get through this troubled time,it is now.
First of all, if anybody saysthis is the worst that we've
ever seen, I ask them toremember enslavement.
(29:50):
Suppose our ancestors all ofthem had just said, the majority
of them had just said this istoo much, I got to just jump
overboard and some did, but themajority did not.
(30:13):
From somewhere, they found whatthey needed Hope.
They also found something thatthey needed Inspiration, that
they needed Inspiration.
And they, thirdly, in my view,found what they needed, and I'm
(30:39):
going to call it activism.
And so how dare we.
As troubling as these times are,when some folk are using
language like An attack Ofenormous magnitude On American
(30:59):
democracy, how dare we say wedon't have what it takes To get
through this when our ancestorsdid, and we're not the only
people.
Look what the Holocaust did andhow people resisted
(31:29):
nevertheless.
Think about what happened tothe indigenous sisters and
brothers who were already onthis land when white folk came
here, who didn't give up and are, yes, still struggling, but
they didn't give up and are, yes, still struggling, but they
(31:53):
didn't give up.
I think, in more recent terms,about Dolores Huerta and Cesar
Chavez and what they did Forthat movement.
When I was at a certain point inmy life with my children, being
(32:18):
an activist that I was, mychildren thought that that fruit
that we call grapes had onlyone word that described them
they were union grapes, becausewe wouldn't let anything into
our household that didn'treflect the unionizing that
(32:40):
Dolores Huerta and Cesar Chavezfought for.
Think about that period ofinternment of Japanese Americans
and how they nevertheless founda way to come through.
(33:03):
And I guess I'm now going tohave to share an exceptional
Japanese saying.
I mean, you both know I loveproverbs, I love sayings from
the peoples of the world.
There's a Japanese saying, andhere it is Down seven up eight,
(33:29):
down seven up eight.
We have no choice right now butto have hope, to find
inspiration, to get into thestruggle somehow and to be the
(33:52):
activist that I, as a woman offaith, believe my God calls on
me to be All right.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I, whenever, obviously, you know when we are
around each other, at least Iknow we we are having what I
would kind of classify asserious conversations with other
groups of stakeholders in ourcommunity about these things.
Obviously, right here in thisconversation that we're having,
(34:25):
we're talking about very seriousmatters.
One of the concerns and I'mjust going to speak for my
generation, I'm not sure, notthat we can't smile, not that we
(34:49):
can't laugh discussions thatare happening in our community
around these topics.
Enough, you know, and again,not from a place of fear, but
simply from a place of strategy,activism, so on and so forth.
But I'm sure a lot of peoplethat engage with you are
probably coming with a seriousconversation, I hope.
(35:12):
But what are you seeing, Iguess, from your vantage point?
Are you seeing us having enoughof these conversations?
Are we being serious enough asa community about our next steps
?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
I don't think we have any possibility right now of
having too many conversations,because it is out of
conversations and we will oftencall them courageous
conversations that we come upwith ideas, with strategies,
(35:59):
with actions.
It could be in someone's livingroom where a group of African
Americans first are giving voice, because there's nothing wrong
with giving voice to howtroubling these times are.
But if you stop there andthat's all you do, shame on us,
(36:27):
because out of that smallgathering in that living room
might come somebody saying look,there's whole business about
banning books, about notpermitting certain things to be
(36:49):
taught in classrooms.
You and Tia and I are in thestate of Florida.
Out of that gathering in thatliving room, in that courageous
conversation, might come notjust hope that things can get
(37:13):
better, not just inspiration todo something, but activism, as
everyone in that living roomsays, and we will go together to
the next meeting of the schoolboard.
Maybe we will do no more thanjust sit there.
(37:36):
We shall see.
We are a people who haveexperienced incredible amounts
of oppression, but we are also apeople who have put forward
(37:58):
untold amounts of resistance andof activism, and I'm not
foolish In the climate thatwe're in.
Of course we need to be careful, but we can be both careful and
(38:24):
find ways to be activists.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
That's great, dr Cole .
What I love so much about theseintergenerational conversations
is the been there and done thatthat you get to share as a part
of your journey and your story,and I think about a lot of my
peers don't seem to necessarilyjust have the courage that it
(38:52):
takes.
I'm not sure where that comesfrom, but there are these ideas
or this, sometimes theopportunity but not necessarily
just having that boldness tojust do it, even if you are
scared.
I'm super curious about SelmanCollege, about your quest, I'm
(39:16):
going to say but you may correctme if you didn't desire it and
somebody maybe came and got youand said why don't you think
about doing this?
But just for our listeners, tohave a bit of your experience in
this bold journey of charting apath that no African-American
(39:36):
female had ever taken in headingto Spelman College and becoming
the president, will you give usa little bit of that story for
our listeners please?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I'll be happy to, because it's a wonderful story,
if I must say so myself.
I want to go back and describehow this really happened.
I had collaborated with someothers in the CUNY system City
(40:12):
University of New York system.
I was at Hunter College andwith some other professors we
did a very exciting project inBrazil, in Sao Paulo, where we
looked at comparisonsenslavement in the United States
(40:33):
, enslavement in Brazil, thestatus of women in the United
States in Brazil.
Well, at the end of the project, a woman who is also an
anthropologist said to me thisis the kind of thing an
anthropologist would do for ananthropologist.
(40:53):
She said would you like areading?
I said yes.
She said I am going to take youto Maruka, and off we went in
Silvita's car, the name of myanthropology sister friend.
(41:17):
We drove up in a very workingclass neighborhood in Sao Paulo,
parked, she parked a car, wewent into Maruca's home and when
we opened the door, nothing butwomen were seated there.
(41:37):
Now, I don't speak anyPortuguese, I command some
Spanish and so as we sat, I'mpicking up maybe just a teeny
bit of the conversation amongthe women and then the door
opens and it is like this forcewalks in, it is Madoka.
(42:04):
And one of the women said and Icould figure this out said in
Portuguese, she must go first.
She's a stranger.
These women had been waitingfor the readings, but they, let
me go first.
Maruca looked at me and shejust stood like this Come.
(42:28):
We went into what is herbedroom.
She sat on the end of her bed.
There was a table and thenchairs, and Silvita and I sat in
the chairs.
I looked at the table and theanthropology in me knew ah,
(42:50):
there is the chairs.
I looked at the table and theanthropology in me knew ah,
there is the fist, there is aglass of water, huh, there is a
snake plant and there are somecowrie shells.
So I knew Maruka was probablygoing to throw those cowrie
(43:14):
shells and she was going to readmy future.
And so we sat and she firstlooked at me and said in
Portuguese, and then Silvitasaid to me what's your name?
(43:35):
Yo me llamo Jonetta.
Maduka then took the cowrieshells and I, out of my
anthropology experience inAfrica, assumed she's going to
hold them and then she's goingto read, depending on the
pattern up and down, my future.
(43:58):
She grabs the cowries, at whichpoint, mia and Ronnie she
became possessed and I, becauseI'm an anthropologist, I knew
what was happening and so I justsat there until she came out of
(44:22):
it, in which case she thenlooked at me, put her hand up so
I could see her skin and shesaid to me you.
And she rubbed her hand and shesaid you will do in your
(44:44):
country what women in my countryand your country rarely do you
are headed for a leadership rolethat is bigger than you can
(45:04):
imagine, almost done.
I don't know what Maruka istalking about, but I know enough
to know she knows somethingthat I don't know.
I go back to Hunter College, getin the elevator.
(45:27):
After I've settled back in, goup to my office on the top floor
in the anthropology department,and on my desk there are two
urgent notes from my mentorsFrom the president of Hunter,
donna Shalala.
(45:48):
President of Hunter, donnaShalala, john Netta, see me
immediately.
From Marion Wright Edelman, thefounder of the Children's
Defense Fund.
Call me the moment you're backfrom Brazil.
From both of my mentors I heardyou will apply for the
(46:08):
presidency of Spelman College.
My first thought was oh my God,this is my new class, this is
what she's talking about.
But I said but I don't want tobe the president of Spelman
College.
I'm a happy professor.
(46:29):
My mentors would not let up thepresident of Spelman College.
I'm a happy professor, mymentors would not let up.
Here's the last chapter of thisstory.
After I was appointed to thepresidency of Spelman College, I
went back to Brazil, this timewith the well-known black
(46:54):
preacher of all black preachers,james Forbes, and his wife,
betty Forbes.
They were both at that time atRiverside Church in New York and
they asked me to go with themfor this trip they were making
to Rio.
I did what I had to do and thenI jumped on a plane and I went
(47:20):
back to Sao Paulo.
I found Silvita and I saidSilvita, you have got to take me
back to see Maruca, maruca.
And we went as we pulled up andSilvita parked her car and we
(47:41):
both got out.
Maruka happened to be gettingout of her car and I'm screaming
Maruka, maruka.
You won't know what happened.
And this is what she said Shh,shh, I know.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Listen, dr Cole, I had no idea.
I'm so glad I asked thatquestion.
I don't know what to do.
There's so much in what youjust said and really, first of
all, I would have sat down justso you know, and seen all those
(48:31):
same things on the table, had noidea.
So the moment she was possessedI might have been out of there
because I don't know any otherthings that you knew.
But I'm glad, and I am certainthat it was you for a reason,
because you knew exactly what todo in that moment to wait it
(48:52):
out and hear the word that wassent directly to you.
And I don't know how much ofthat's happening anymore.
And just for the sake of thepodcast and our listeners, I
really want to kind of stressthat sharing of whatever's
happening that we think weshould be saying to people,
through intuition or otherwise.
(49:14):
I don't have the concludingmoments of a bit of a prophecy
that was spoken over me as well,but I think knowing those
things and having thatinformation allows you to
actually be bold when it'shappening, because it registers.
This is what they were talkingabout.
So you know I'm walking in thisno matter who understands,
(49:37):
because I know that this wasspoken ahead of me to fulfill
this particular mission, so I'mglad that you shared that.
I hope that there are people onthe call that hear that message
and it resonates, or theyremember something somebody said
to and it hasn't quite come outyet to have the boldness of Dr
(49:57):
Jonetta Bench Cole.
Even when she said I don't wantto do that, I'm enjoying
teaching, I want to be aprofessor.
You knew that was the nextthing to do and you walked
boldly into that and you, I'msure, couldn't even imagine all
the ways that that was going toshape your life and the next
(50:18):
steps thereafter.
I plan to share this interviewwith a student that I know at
Spelman College.
And I want to encourage her toshare it with many, many of her
peers and because I know fromthat birth date you allowed me
to say you'll be 90 next year.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
No, no, no, I'm 88.
I will be 89 next year.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
And 26?
.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
I am now 88.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
And I will next year be 89.
And then the big nine.
Oh, as our people would say,the good Lord willing and the
creek don't Right.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
That's right, all right.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Right, ok, well, for this, I want you to share a
message to those collegestudents, or just to those
younger that are walking aroundthe campus, that you poured into
, that you had a vision for,that you made changes in
(51:29):
expectation of this generationafter generation that are there,
of this generation aftergeneration that are there.
What words would you share withthem regarding what they can do
in this moment with whatthey're seeing on television and
everything else?
Could you just kind of givesome encouraging words to the
younger generation of listenersthat may hear this particular
(51:50):
podcast with you?
Speaker 2 (51:53):
with you.
The first counsel that I moveto give is to say to my young
sisters and my brothers if anyrighteous brothers are listening
you got to take care ofyourself.
(52:16):
I go first to self-care,because if you don't take care
of yourself, how are you goingto help us get out of this mess?
When three years ago I was inthe hospital, didn't know if I
(52:42):
would get out.
The chronic obstructive diseasethat I have from being stupid
and smoking like a chimney whenI was in graduate school had
caught up with me.
But good Lord wasn't ready forme and I did come out of that
hospital.
And I got a gift when I gothome and it's a pillow that is
(53:09):
in my walk-in closet.
I read those words every day.
They're the words of AudreLorde, clearly someone who I met
at Hunter College and whohelped me deal with my
(53:30):
homophobia.
Audre Lorde, perhaps the mostwell-known and cherished lesbian
black woman poet, and she wouldinsist that I say warrior, hear
(53:51):
the words on the pillow.
The last words aren't there,but I'm going to add them.
Doing for myself is notself-indulgence, it is
self-preservation, it is apolitical act.
(54:15):
Think about that.
Taking care of yourself is apolitical act.
The second thing that Irespectfully say to young'uns
and I use that term with greataffection and respect Dr Maya
(54:41):
Angelou's words you've been paidfor.
You've got to understand awhole lot of folk have gone
through a whole lot because theydreamed of you.
(55:01):
And when you feel that youdon't just say it, it's not just
a pretty statement, but youfeel it, then you've got to be
motivated to get up and dosomething.
Something, whether it isdeciding this is the time for
(55:30):
you to be a big sister or a bigbrother through that program, or
deciding that this is the timefor you to start your own
process of mentoring those whoare actually younger than you.
(55:54):
Or you don't know why you'vebeen putting off Joining the
National Council of Negro Women,but surely this is the time.
And so, after self-care, I'mreally calling On my Younger
(56:15):
sisters and brothers.
I'm really calling on myyounger sisters and brothers, my
siblings, to do something.
I know it ain't pretty out here, but there is something you can
do each and every day so thatat the end of the day, you can
(56:43):
say I did something.
No matter how good blacklanguage T-N-I-G-E it was, no
matter how itsy bitsy it was, Idid something to push back
(57:03):
against what is happening.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Awesome, awesome.
That's a beautiful, beautifulmessage.
Matter of fact, my, my daughterright now is in in college.
I'm going to send this to heras well.
She is a, not a Spelman, butshe is a proud member of Delta
Sigma Theta.
Matter of fact, dr Cole, I haveto try to pull or convince Tia
to allow Omegas and Deltas onthis podcast, and so I just want
(57:30):
to say I was advocating for youto be on this podcast here.
She finally allowed it, so wereally, really appreciate.
Speaker 4 (57:38):
I know you don't believe that oh listen.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
If we can't joke within our Divine Nine family,
then something is really wrongwith us.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Absolutely so.
We hear that word of yours.
Speaker 2 (57:55):
Where is she?
Speaker 1 (57:56):
Ronnie, she's right here at University of North
Florida, yep University of NorthFlorida.
She just crossed about sixmonths ago, so she is running
around being a very, very proudneophyte.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Well tell my sorrow and my young sister that I
believe in her and tell hersomething that I say that is
really so self-centered it maysound almost selfish.
Your daughter, her generationand those younger Are the only
(58:41):
Future that I have got.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
Amen, amen.
We really want to thank you, drCole, for taking the time today
.
This was amazing.
This was the one we wereabsolutely waiting on, the
conversation that I know we werewaiting on.
Again, I'm just happy that wehave the opportunity to share
your words with our smallnetwork and circle of folks.
(59:05):
We just hope that people likeyou said continue to fight and
continue to push the ballforward for all of us.
We really, really appreciateyou taking out that time today.
I know that Tia does as well.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yes, we will never forget this moment, and I know
that Ronnie wants to sponsor youanother seafood fest.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
Oh, I am grateful.
I am grateful, and I will leavethe two of you with words of, I
think, one of the great civilrights activists of all times,
ella Baker, and her words arecaptured in the song that
(59:56):
Bernice Reagan and Sweet Honeyand the Rock sing.
The words are we who believe infreedom cannot stop until it
comes.
Be well, my sis and my bro.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Be well.
Thank you, dr.
My bro Be well.
Thank you, dr Cole, take care.
Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
Thank you so much.
I guess the endurance is bliss.
Take me back to before the noon.
Take it out of cue.
Innocence can be a human's game.
Signed up for the hall of shame.
I wish I knew how much I missed.
(01:00:53):
I know that we're all screwedwhen we play our roles and
ignore the problems.
I like to be away and morepatient.
(01:01:23):
Stay up.
I feel so outdated.
How can we look the other way?
Sun is out, but the sky is gray.
What would happen if I took achance?
It's always hard at firstglance.
I don't wanna, but I know Igotta do it.
The truth is hard to swallow.
I think I knew how much I miss,not knowing that we're all
(01:02:15):
screwed when we play our rolesand ignore the problems.
I wish I knew how much I miss.
I know that we're all screwedwhen we play our roles and
(01:02:44):
ignore the problems.
I wish I knew.
Hey, good afternoon there, Dr Cole.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good afternoon.
I had trouble.
I had to call on my hubby, whois my tech support.
All right, how are you all?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Good, how are?
You, I'm pretty good, dr Cole,I'm so excited to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Is all well.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
All is well.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I appreciate you joining us.
Dr Cole, yeah, we've beenlooking forward to this.
Tia said that she fixed you acrab tray.
She said she.
She didn't crab trade, she saidshe.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
She threw me down with it.
The queen of the crab boil,that is her new title.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I have to ask, though, whatkind of crab we talking about?
Snow crabs, dungeon?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
crabs, blue crabs, we had both, and everything else
went in it, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
That might be a new side hustle to you.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It could be True Florida girl.
I think I was more excited toprepare the crab than for her to
eat the crab.
I was so happy.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
We were outrageously into them.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Dr Cole, we are so happy that you are joining us
for the Scratchwork EDU podcastand we've been doing this neat
thing.
So we have been using ChatGPT.
Have you ever heard of that?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I am technologically challenged, so the answer is no.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Okay.
Well, chatgpt is a bit likeGoogle, but on steroids.
So we've been putting inside ofthat system.
Give us a bio on and then we'llstate the person and then we'll
read it and see what ChatGPThas for them.
So we're hoping to do the samefor you.
(02:33):
So I don't have your actual bio, but I'm going to put your name
into ChatGPT and I'm going tosay we're interviewing Dr
Jonetta Betch Cole.
Please give me her bio, andthen at the end you just kind of
tell me how it was, if it wasgood or not.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
All right, are we ready?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Ready.
I'll tell you what it says WithDr Jonetta Betch-Cole.
Dr Jonetta Betch-Cole is adistinguished American
anthropologist, educator andmuseum director renowned for her
groundbreaking leadership inacademia and cultural
institutions.
Born on October 19th blah blahblah in Jacksonville, florida.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
You can say it I don't get it 1936 in.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Jacksonville, Florida .
That's right.
She embarked on her highereducation journey at the age of
15, initially attending FiskUniversity before transferring
to Oberlin College, where sheearned a Bachelor of Arts in
Sociology in 1957.
She furthered her studies atNorthwestern University,
(03:44):
obtaining both a master's and aPhD in anthropology by 1967.
Dr Cole's academic careerincludes teaching and
administrative roles atinstitutions such as Washington
State University, the Universityof Massachusetts and Hunter
College.
In 1987, she made history asthe first African-American woman
(04:10):
to serve as president ofSpelman College, significantly
enhancing its endowment andacademic reputation during her
decade-long tenure, she laterled Bennett College from 2002 to
2007, becoming the onlyindividual to preside over both
historically Black colleges forwomen in the United States.
(04:33):
Beyond academia, Dr Coledirected the Smithsonian
National Museum of African Artfrom 2009 to 2017, of African
Art from 2009 to 2017,reflecting her deep commitment
to cultural preservation andeducation.
She has also been a trailblazerin corporate governance, being
(04:53):
the first African American tochair the Board of United Way of
America and serving on theboards of major corporations
like Home Depot.
Throughout her industriouscareer, Dr Cole has been a
steadfast advocate for diversity, equity, accessibility and
inclusion, addressing issuesconcerning Africa and the
(05:15):
diaspora.
She has authored and editednumerous publications and has
been recognized with over 50honorary degrees.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
No, no and has been recognized with over 50.
It's now over 70 honorarydegrees, so I'm afraid it's a
little outdated.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Let's get it right.
Let's get it right.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
With over 70 honorary degrees and numerous awards for
her contributions to educationand social justice.
Awards for her contributions toeducation and social justice.
Dr Cole's enduring legacycontinues to inspire future
generations through herdedication to leadership,
cultural understanding and therelentless pursuit of equality.
(05:58):
What do you say about that?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Say about that Wow, that's what I say about it.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I say it's work I've been called to do.
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Dr Cole, anything in that bio strike you as I don't
know if I would have said itthat way, or did they miss
anything that you would have putin your bio that they didn't
have?
I'm not sure if they graduate.
That description graduated mefrom Oberlin College in 1967.
It should be 1957.
Just because I'm a stickler foraccuracy, I think it's.
I think it's as good as a biocan be.
(06:47):
Sure, look, an individualshould never be captured totally
by a bio.
It's the work that matters, soI don't think we ought to spend
any more time talking about it.
(07:07):
That's what I say.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Perfect, you know.
What I want to talk about ishow did you end up, at 15 years
old, starting this particularhigher ed journey?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I can respond very quickly and very accurately.
My parents believed ineducation like the devil
believes in sin.
That's a lot of belief.
So they sent me off to thefirst grade when I was five.
(07:44):
Sent me off to the first gradewhen I was five and oh, how
fortunate I was to end up.
Yes, it was a segregated school, but it was Miss Bunny Vance's
classroom.
And then I went to Boylan Havenin Jacksonville At that time an
(08:09):
all-girls school under theownership of the Methodist
Church.
But then after that, I beggedmy parents.
But then after that I begged myparents.
Could I please in my 11th year,11th grade, sorry, could I go
(08:31):
to Stanton?
And they agreed.
So I was so happy I was playingin the band the French horn.
I could not have been happier.
And then one day my parentssaid well, we made a decision.
You're going downtown andyou're going to take a test.
(08:55):
If you pass it, you're going togo to an early entrance program
at Fisk University.
Program at Fisk University.
Brother Ronnie, sister Tia, Ididn't want to go to Fisk, I
didn't want to go anywhere.
I wanted to stay at Stanton.
But like an obedient daughter,I went downtown.
(09:21):
But then I was stupid.
Think what I could have done IfI really didn't want to go.
All I had to do was check thewrong answers.
No, no, no, no, no.
I checked all the right boxes,and so that is how, at age 15, I
(09:46):
went to Fisk.
Now let me just say and thenI'll be done with this.
it was an era when, across ourcountry, many African Americans
were going into these earlyentrance programs.
I was 15 when I went to Fisk,maynard Jackson was 14 when he
(10:11):
went to Morehouse, and so thatwas, for that period of time, an
enormously importantrecognition.
An enormously importantrecognition that in the
African-American community, likein other people's communities,
(10:31):
there were very studious youngblack people who, I would say,
were not only into books but whohad also been taught that they
(10:51):
had to be of service.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Absolutely beautiful.
I think about your parents.
You know, these days we askchildren so much about what they
want to do.
Do you want to do this, do youwant to do that?
Your parents say you're goingto take the test and then, if
you pass, this is what'shappening next.
Thinking back on that, why doyou think they wanted you to do
(11:17):
that?
So, knowing that you probablycould pass and could get into
college early?
And you're saying that theearly entrance was happening
across, I guess several peoplegetting that opportunity.
What was their passion behindmaking sure you were one of
those?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, let me first say that my parents were very,
very fortunate Back in the day,very fortunate Back in the day.
(11:56):
Those two black people went toHBCUs and got college degrees.
My mother went to Wilberforcenow Wilberforce University my
father went to Knox College inKnoxville, Tennessee, and so
they knew the value of an HBCUeducation and they thought here
(12:28):
is this nerdy daughter of ourswho can't get herself out of a
book.
This will be really good forher.
There's a sadness about thisthat I must share.
First, let me say I loved Fisk.
I was in my element, whether itwas being able to go into that
(12:54):
collection of black art or go tothe library where Arnaud
Bontemps, of all people, was thehead librarian.
But it was a period of greatsadness and trauma.
That was the year while I wasat this that my father died
(13:20):
unexpectedly and I was mydaddy's baby girl.
No, I wasn't the talentedmusical genius, the beach lady,
my older sister, and no, I wouldnot become a great jazz drummer
(13:48):
like my baby brother wouldbecome.
But I have to say that nothinghad ever happened to me that was
so sad as losing my daddyhappened to me.
That was so sad as losing mydaddy.
So my mom and my sister againthe famous beach lady got
(14:14):
together and said how about, ifyou go to Oberlin, your sister
is there.
She's a double major in voiceand piano in the conservatory.
Be near your sister, It'll help.
And it did so.
That's how I left Fisk afteronly one year, Went to Oberlin
(14:42):
and it was there that I did myundergraduate degree.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
I just want to highlight the resilience.
You knew what that meant toboth your parents, and even in
the absence of your father,something tells me you never
considered stopping just becauseyou were sad.
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Oh, that's absolutely true, Because I had been taught
one of the lessons, the many,many lessons that one can learn
in the African-Americancommunity.
I had been taught that the way,no one of the ways that you can
(15:28):
honor someone that you reallylove is by doing well and doing
good, especially by doing good.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I absolutely love that.
Dr Cole, you know and I feel alittle ashamed saying this and
I'm not originally fromJacksonville, but I've had the
pleasure of working with you onthis AL Lewis Opportunity and
Impact Fund and it was reallythrough that that I learned
about the story of AL Lewis andobviously I had heard about and
(16:09):
knew about you and your greatwork but didn't know about that
connection between you and ALLewis and that whole history
with American Beach.
I know when, when I went outthere with you and some others
and kind of got a little bitmore information about that, I
personally was inspired.
You know, not only about theindividual success of AL Lewis
(16:34):
and those things, but just thatentire community and Black folks
doing for each other andproviding for each other.
You know, if you don't mind,you know taking maybe a moment
just to talk about that and youknow I'm sure that has some
connection in terms of whatyou've done throughout your life
(16:56):
, but you know, any thoughts onthat that time?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, first of all, I do want to say that and I'm
being very sincere I don't thinkthe AL Lewis, black Opportunity
and Impact Fund could do therighteous work it is doing
(17:22):
without your voice, work it isdoing without your voice.
I am a deep, deep, deep, deepbeliever in intergenerationality
and you bring into that settingall of the learnings and the
(17:42):
excitement and the possibilitiesof a younger generation than I.
But let me just say howextraordinarily fortunate I am
to know so much about where Ihave come from.
(18:05):
And because I do, I know howwretched it is, how very harmful
it is when we are told weshouldn't look back.
We don't need to keepconcentrating on our history and
(18:28):
our story and their story.
As that wonderful Adinkra fromGhana says, sankofa, you've got
to look back in order to goforward, back in order to go
forward.
So, my dearest brother, ronnie,I know you know an incredible
(18:52):
amount about AL Lewis.
After all, you wouldn't havesigned up for all of this if you
didn't.
But what you and Tia may notknow is that I can trace the
maternal side of my family backto a young girl.
(19:19):
Wolof was her ethnic group.
She was of a royal family inSenegal.
Her name was Anta MedijinN'Djai, born in 1793.
(19:40):
When she was 13, she wascaptured, shackled, marched from
her home in Senegal to thatoff-the-coast place called Goree
(20:01):
Island, where there is a doorof no return.
I have stood in that door andwept like a baby.
She was pushed through thatdoor and onto a ship and thus
began her horrific experience ofthe Middle Passage.
(20:26):
Andemajigin Jai was offloadedin Havana, cuba.
Put a pin in that she's placedon the auction block.
(20:51):
From about 15 minutes away fromwhere I'm seated right now in
the American Beach community hadgone a British enslaver by the
name of Zephaniah Kingsley, andyou may have heard of the
Kingsley Plantation and you mayhave heard of the Kingsley
Plantation.
He went to Havana, cuba, forthe explicit purpose of buying
(21:14):
human beings.
He saw Anta Majidin Jai and hesaid I must have her.
He bought her, impregnated herbefore they reached the Kingsley
Plantation.
Now why have I taken up so muchof our time to tell you?
(21:51):
Abraham Lincoln Lewis married.
He had two wives in succession.
His first wife was Mary FrancesSammas.
Who was she?
She was the great-granddaughterof Zephaniah Kingsley and
(22:15):
Antimagician Jai.
So my knowledge of my ancestorson the maternal side and I've
got a lot of work to do tobalance it with my father's side
(22:36):
, which is German, which iswhere Betch comes from.
That was a gift given to me tobe a descendant of these
extraordinary human beings NowRonnie and Tia.
(23:03):
I believe if you're going totell the story, you got to tell
the whole story, even the partsthat are not good.
So I'm going to bring closureon this by saying Antum Adjidjit
Njai, who became one ofZephaniah Kingsley's four common
(23:27):
law wives.
Common Law wives Became sowealthy, so central to him In
the running of the plantation.
I have no pride in this.
In fact it is a point of greatconcern that she actually owned
herself A few slaves or a fewenslaved people.
(23:51):
But we got to tell the wholestory, including the engagement
of African people in theenslavement trade.
So AL Lewis marries AntonMagidgenin Njai and Zephaniah
(24:13):
Kingsley's great-granddaughter.
He was born in 1865.
That's why his recently freedparents named him Abraham
Lincoln.
He was born very poor, but ALLewis went on, out of sheer grit
(24:37):
and God's grace, to join withsix other black men in founding
the first insurance company inthe state of Florida.
And let me tell you howAfrocentric he was, because,
(25:01):
given the task and he was ofnaming that newly formed company
he could have named it thecolored or the Negro Company
(25:22):
which became the Afro-Americanlife insurance company he chose
Afro-American.
It's 1901.
Where did he get thisAfrocentrism from?
It's what drove him, with hissecond wife, to go to Egypt and
to see the pyramids with his owneyes.
(25:42):
And so AL Lewis also becameFlorida's first black
millionaire.
But, far more importantly, hewas one of the great
(26:02):
philanthropists of his era.
He believed, as he taught me,doing for others is just the
rent you got to pay for yourroom on earth.
The rent you got to pay foryour room on earth.
And so AL Lewis set anextraordinary example for the
organization that you, brotherRonnie, and I have been
(26:22):
associated with.
If we have some means, how darewe not figure out how others
can be where we are?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Beautiful, beautiful and to your point, you know,
kind of looking back in time,one of the things that I got
from that whole story sometimeswe're thinking that whatever
worked back then, you know,wouldn't necessarily work now.
But that story about what heand those other brothers did, I
(27:01):
mean, I feel like in a lot ofways, that's exactly what we
need to be doing right now,almost verbatim.
But you know, I must ask you,you know, with all of the recent
kind of current events that'skind of happening in America,
particularly as it relates toAfrican-Americans and we're
talking about your, your historydating back to Africa we have a
(27:26):
lot of African-Americans thatyou know we're nervous right now
.
We have a lot ofAfrican-Americans that you know
we're nervous right now.
I mean myself included.
Sometimes, I mean you're hearingmore people now than ever
saying, man, we might have toget up out of here or we need to
move back to Africa, or, andtrying to come up with solutions
.
Now, me personally, you know Ican't help it Right, I am an
(27:47):
African-American, this is myhome in a lot of ways.
This is all I know.
What are your thoughts as itrelates to particularly our
African-American experience andhow we should be conducting
ourselves in these really tryingtimes and is there any
(28:14):
relationship or any coordinationthat we should be thinking
about strategically back withour brothers and sisters in
Africa.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Well, it doesn't take much to know to own that we are
in profoundly troubling times,are in profoundly troubling
times, and so the inevitablequestion is so what is to be
(28:41):
done?
We, as African Americans, as welisten to and experience what
is going on in our country, wecould become so depressed that
we just say, look, I've got todo one of two things I've got to
(29:02):
either find my little cornerover here or I've got to leave
this country.
I think neither is what weshould do.
If ever there was a time whenwe have got to figure out how we
(29:26):
get through this troubled time,it is now.
First of all, if anybody saysthis is the worst that we've
ever seen, I ask them toremember enslavement.
(29:50):
Suppose our ancestors all ofthem had just said, the majority
of them had just said this istoo much, I got to just jump
overboard and some did, but themajority did not.
(30:13):
From somewhere, they found whatthey needed Hope.
They also found something thatthey needed Inspiration, that
they needed Inspiration.
And they, thirdly, in my view,found what they needed, and I'm
(30:39):
going to call it activism.
And so how dare we.
As troubling as these times are,when some folk are using
language like An attack Ofenormous magnitude On American
(30:59):
democracy, how dare we say wedon't have what it takes To get
through this when our ancestorsdid, and we're not the only
people.
Look what the Holocaust did andhow people resisted
(31:29):
nevertheless.
Think about what happened tothe indigenous sisters and
brothers who were already onthis land when white folk came
here, who didn't give up and are, yes, still struggling, but
they didn't give up and are, yes, still struggling, but they
(31:53):
didn't give up.
I think, in more recent terms,about Dolores Huerta and Cesar
Chavez and what they did Forthat movement.
When I was at a certain point inmy life with my children, being
(32:18):
an activist that I was, mychildren thought that that fruit
that we call grapes had onlyone word that described them
they were union grapes, becausewe wouldn't let anything into
our household that didn'treflect the unionizing that
(32:40):
Dolores Huerta and Cesar Chavezfought for.
Think about that period ofinternment of Japanese Americans
and how they nevertheless founda way to come through.
(33:03):
And I guess I'm now going tohave to share an exceptional
Japanese saying.
I mean, you both know I loveproverbs, I love sayings from
the peoples of the world.
There's a Japanese saying, andhere it is Down seven up eight,
(33:29):
down seven up eight.
We have no choice right now butto have hope, to find
inspiration, to get into thestruggle somehow and to be the
(33:52):
activist that I, as a woman offaith, believe my God calls on
me to be All right.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I, whenever, obviously, you know when we are
around each other, at least Iknow we we are having what I
would kind of classify asserious conversations with other
groups of stakeholders in ourcommunity about these things.
Obviously, right here in thisconversation that we're having,
(34:25):
we're talking about very seriousmatters.
One of the concerns and I'mjust going to speak for my
generation, I'm not sure, notthat we can't smile, not that we
(34:49):
can't laugh discussions thatare happening in our community
around these topics.
Enough, you know, and again,not from a place of fear, but
simply from a place of strategy,activism, so on and so forth.
But I'm sure a lot of peoplethat engage with you are
probably coming with a seriousconversation, I hope.
(35:12):
But what are you seeing, Iguess, from your vantage point?
Are you seeing us having enoughof these conversations?
Are we being serious enough asa community about our next steps
?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
I don't think we have any possibility right now of
having too many conversations,because it is out of
conversations and we will oftencall them courageous
conversations that we come upwith ideas, with strategies,
(35:59):
with actions.
It could be in someone's livingroom where a group of African
Americans first are giving voice, because there's nothing wrong
with giving voice to howtroubling these times are.
But if you stop there andthat's all you do, shame on us,
(36:27):
because out of that smallgathering in that living room
might come somebody saying look,there's whole business about
banning books, about notpermitting certain things to be
(36:49):
taught in classrooms.
You and Tia and I are in thestate of Florida.
Out of that gathering in thatliving room, in that courageous
conversation, might come notjust hope that things can get
(37:13):
better, not just inspiration todo something, but activism, as
everyone in that living roomsays, and we will go together to
the next meeting of the schoolboard.
Maybe we will do no more thanjust sit there.
(37:36):
We shall see.
We are a people who haveexperienced incredible amounts
of oppression, but we are also apeople who have put forward
(37:58):
untold amounts of resistance andof activism, and I'm not
foolish In the climate thatwe're in.
Of course we need to be careful, but we can be both careful and
(38:24):
find ways to be activists.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
That's great, dr Cole .
What I love so much about theseintergenerational conversations
is the been there and done thatthat you get to share as a part
of your journey and your story,and I think about a lot of my
peers don't seem to necessarilyjust have the courage that it
(38:52):
takes.
I'm not sure where that comesfrom, but there are these ideas
or this, sometimes theopportunity but not necessarily
just having that boldness tojust do it, even if you are
scared.
I'm super curious about SelmanCollege, about your quest, I'm
(39:16):
going to say but you may correctme if you didn't desire it and
somebody maybe came and got youand said why don't you think
about doing this?
But just for our listeners, tohave a bit of your experience in
this bold journey of charting apath that no African-American
(39:36):
female had ever taken in headingto Spelman College and becoming
the president, will you give usa little bit of that story for
our listeners please?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I'll be happy to, because it's a wonderful story,
if I must say so myself.
I want to go back and describehow this really happened.
I had collaborated with someothers in the CUNY system City
(40:12):
University of New York system.
I was at Hunter College andwith some other professors we
did a very exciting project inBrazil, in Sao Paulo, where we
looked at comparisonsenslavement in the United States
(40:33):
, enslavement in Brazil, thestatus of women in the United
States in Brazil.
Well, at the end of the project, a woman who is also an
anthropologist said to me thisis the kind of thing an
anthropologist would do for ananthropologist.
(40:53):
She said would you like areading?
I said yes.
She said I am going to take youto Maruka, and off we went in
Silvita's car, the name of myanthropology sister friend.
(41:17):
We drove up in a very workingclass neighborhood in Sao Paulo,
parked, she parked a car, wewent into Maruca's home and when
we opened the door, nothing butwomen were seated there.
(41:37):
Now, I don't speak anyPortuguese, I command some
Spanish and so as we sat, I'mpicking up maybe just a teeny
bit of the conversation amongthe women and then the door
opens and it is like this forcewalks in, it is Madoka.
(42:04):
And one of the women said and Icould figure this out said in
Portuguese, she must go first.
She's a stranger.
These women had been waitingfor the readings, but they, let
me go first.
Maruca looked at me and shejust stood like this Come.
(42:28):
We went into what is herbedroom.
She sat on the end of her bed.
There was a table and thenchairs, and Silvita and I sat in
the chairs.
I looked at the table and theanthropology in me knew ah,
(42:50):
there is the chairs.
I looked at the table and theanthropology in me knew ah,
there is the fist, there is aglass of water, huh, there is a
snake plant and there are somecowrie shells.
So I knew Maruka was probablygoing to throw those cowrie
(43:14):
shells and she was going to readmy future.
And so we sat and she firstlooked at me and said in
Portuguese, and then Silvitasaid to me what's your name?
(43:35):
Yo me llamo Jonetta.
Maduka then took the cowrieshells and I, out of my
anthropology experience inAfrica, assumed she's going to
hold them and then she's goingto read, depending on the
pattern up and down, my future.
(43:58):
She grabs the cowries, at whichpoint, mia and Ronnie she
became possessed and I, becauseI'm an anthropologist, I knew
what was happening and so I justsat there until she came out of
(44:22):
it, in which case she thenlooked at me, put her hand up so
I could see her skin and shesaid to me you.
And she rubbed her hand and shesaid you will do in your
(44:44):
country what women in my countryand your country rarely do you
are headed for a leadership rolethat is bigger than you can
(45:04):
imagine, almost done.
I don't know what Maruka istalking about, but I know enough
to know she knows somethingthat I don't know.
I go back to Hunter College, getin the elevator.
(45:27):
After I've settled back in, goup to my office on the top floor
in the anthropology department,and on my desk there are two
urgent notes from my mentorsFrom the president of Hunter,
donna Shalala.
(45:48):
President of Hunter, donnaShalala, john Netta, see me
immediately.
From Marion Wright Edelman, thefounder of the Children's
Defense Fund.
Call me the moment you're backfrom Brazil.
From both of my mentors I heardyou will apply for the
(46:08):
presidency of Spelman College.
My first thought was oh my God,this is my new class, this is
what she's talking about.
But I said but I don't want tobe the president of Spelman
College.
I'm a happy professor.
(46:29):
My mentors would not let up thepresident of Spelman College.
I'm a happy professor, mymentors would not let up.
Here's the last chapter of thisstory.
After I was appointed to thepresidency of Spelman College, I
went back to Brazil, this timewith the well-known black
(46:54):
preacher of all black preachers,james Forbes, and his wife,
betty Forbes.
They were both at that time atRiverside Church in New York and
they asked me to go with themfor this trip they were making
to Rio.
I did what I had to do and thenI jumped on a plane and I went
(47:20):
back to Sao Paulo.
I found Silvita and I saidSilvita, you have got to take me
back to see Maruca, maruca.
And we went as we pulled up andSilvita parked her car and we
(47:41):
both got out.
Maruka happened to be gettingout of her car and I'm screaming
Maruka, maruka.
You won't know what happened.
And this is what she said Shh,shh, I know.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Listen, dr Cole, I had no idea.
I'm so glad I asked thatquestion.
I don't know what to do.
There's so much in what youjust said and really, first of
all, I would have sat down justso you know, and seen all those
(48:31):
same things on the table, had noidea.
So the moment she was possessedI might have been out of there
because I don't know any otherthings that you knew.
But I'm glad, and I am certainthat it was you for a reason,
because you knew exactly what todo in that moment to wait it
(48:52):
out and hear the word that wassent directly to you.
And I don't know how much ofthat's happening anymore.
And just for the sake of thepodcast and our listeners, I
really want to kind of stressthat sharing of whatever's
happening that we think weshould be saying to people,
through intuition or otherwise.
(49:14):
I don't have the concludingmoments of a bit of a prophecy
that was spoken over me as well,but I think knowing those
things and having thatinformation allows you to
actually be bold when it'shappening, because it registers.
This is what they were talkingabout.
So you know I'm walking in thisno matter who understands,
(49:37):
because I know that this wasspoken ahead of me to fulfill
this particular mission, so I'mglad that you shared that.
I hope that there are people onthe call that hear that message
and it resonates, or theyremember something somebody said
to and it hasn't quite come outyet to have the boldness of Dr
(49:57):
Jonetta Bench Cole.
Even when she said I don't wantto do that, I'm enjoying
teaching, I want to be aprofessor.
You knew that was the nextthing to do and you walked
boldly into that and you, I'msure, couldn't even imagine all
the ways that that was going toshape your life and the next
(50:18):
steps thereafter.
I plan to share this interviewwith a student that I know at
Spelman College.
And I want to encourage her toshare it with many, many of her
peers and because I know fromthat birth date you allowed me
to say you'll be 90 next year.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
No, no, no, I'm 88.
I will be 89 next year.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
And 26?
.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
I am now 88.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
And I will next year be 89.
And then the big nine.
Oh, as our people would say,the good Lord willing and the
creek don't Right.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
That's right, all right.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Right, ok, well, for this, I want you to share a
message to those collegestudents, or just to those
younger that are walking aroundthe campus, that you poured into
, that you had a vision for,that you made changes in
(51:29):
expectation of this generationafter generation that are there,
of this generation aftergeneration that are there.
What words would you share withthem regarding what they can do
in this moment with whatthey're seeing on television and
everything else?
Could you just kind of givesome encouraging words to the
younger generation of listenersthat may hear this particular
(51:50):
podcast with you?
Speaker 2 (51:53):
with you.
The first counsel that I moveto give is to say to my young
sisters and my brothers if anyrighteous brothers are listening
you got to take care ofyourself.
(52:16):
I go first to self-care,because if you don't take care
of yourself, how are you goingto help us get out of this mess?
When three years ago I was inthe hospital, didn't know if I
(52:42):
would get out.
The chronic obstructive diseasethat I have from being stupid
and smoking like a chimney whenI was in graduate school had
caught up with me.
But good Lord wasn't ready forme and I did come out of that
hospital.
And I got a gift when I gothome and it's a pillow that is
(53:09):
in my walk-in closet.
I read those words every day.
They're the words of AudreLorde, clearly someone who I met
at Hunter College and whohelped me deal with my
(53:30):
homophobia.
Audre Lorde, perhaps the mostwell-known and cherished lesbian
black woman poet, and she wouldinsist that I say warrior, hear
(53:51):
the words on the pillow.
The last words aren't there,but I'm going to add them.
Doing for myself is notself-indulgence, it is
self-preservation, it is apolitical act.
(54:15):
Think about that.
Taking care of yourself is apolitical act.
The second thing that Irespectfully say to young'uns
and I use that term with greataffection and respect Dr Maya
(54:41):
Angelou's words you've been paidfor.
You've got to understand awhole lot of folk have gone
through a whole lot because theydreamed of you.
(55:01):
And when you feel that youdon't just say it, it's not just
a pretty statement, but youfeel it, then you've got to be
motivated to get up and dosomething.
Something, whether it isdeciding this is the time for
(55:30):
you to be a big sister or a bigbrother through that program, or
deciding that this is the timefor you to start your own
process of mentoring those whoare actually younger than you.
(55:54):
Or you don't know why you'vebeen putting off Joining the
National Council of Negro Women,but surely this is the time.
And so, after self-care, I'mreally calling On my Younger
(56:15):
sisters and brothers.
I'm really calling on myyounger sisters and brothers, my
siblings, to do something.
I know it ain't pretty out here, but there is something you can
do each and every day so thatat the end of the day, you can
(56:43):
say I did something.
No matter how good blacklanguage T-N-I-G-E it was, no
matter how itsy bitsy it was, Idid something to push back
(57:03):
against what is happening.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
Awesome, awesome.
That's a beautiful, beautifulmessage.
Matter of fact, my, my daughterright now is in in college.
I'm going to send this to heras well.
She is a, not a Spelman, butshe is a proud member of Delta
Sigma Theta.
Matter of fact, dr Cole, I haveto try to pull or convince Tia
to allow Omegas and Deltas onthis podcast, and so I just want
(57:30):
to say I was advocating for youto be on this podcast here.
She finally allowed it, so wereally, really appreciate.
Speaker 4 (57:38):
I know you don't believe that oh listen.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
If we can't joke within our Divine Nine family,
then something is really wrongwith us.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Absolutely so.
We hear that word of yours.
Speaker 2 (57:55):
Where is she?
Speaker 1 (57:56):
Ronnie, she's right here at University of North
Florida, yep University of NorthFlorida.
She just crossed about sixmonths ago, so she is running
around being a very, very proudneophyte.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Well tell my sorrow and my young sister that I
believe in her and tell hersomething that I say that is
really so self-centered it maysound almost selfish.
Your daughter, her generationand those younger Are the only
(58:41):
Future that I have got.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
Amen, amen.
We really want to thank you, drCole, for taking the time today
.
This was amazing.
This was the one we wereabsolutely waiting on, the
conversation that I know we werewaiting on.
Again, I'm just happy that wehave the opportunity to share
your words with our smallnetwork and circle of folks.
(59:05):
We just hope that people likeyou said continue to fight and
continue to push the ballforward for all of us.
We really, really appreciateyou taking out that time today.
I know that Tia does as well.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yes, we will never forget this moment, and I know
that Ronnie wants to sponsor youanother seafood fest.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
Oh, I am grateful.
I am grateful, and I will leavethe two of you with words of, I
think, one of the great civilrights activists of all times,
ella Baker, and her words arecaptured in the song that
(59:56):
Bernice Reagan and Sweet Honeyand the Rock sing.
The words are we who believe infreedom cannot stop until it
comes.
Be well, my sis and my bro.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Be well.
Thank you, dr.
My bro Be well.
Thank you, dr Cole, take care.
Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
Thank you so much.
I guess the endurance is bliss.
Take me back to before the noon.
Take it out of cue.
Innocence can be a human's game.
Signed up for the hall of shame.
I wish I knew how much I missed.
(01:00:53):
I know that we're all screwedwhen we play our roles and
ignore the problems.
I like to be away and morepatient.
(01:01:23):
Stay up.
I feel so outdated.
How can we look the other way?
Sun is out, but the sky is gray.
What would happen if I took achance?
It's always hard at firstglance.
I don't wanna, but I know Igotta do it.
The truth is hard to swallow.
I think I knew how much I miss,not knowing that we're all
(01:02:15):
screwed when we play our rolesand ignore the problems.
I wish I knew how much I miss.
I know that we're all screwedwhen we play our roles and
(01:02:44):
ignore the problems.
I wish I knew.
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