December 8, 2024 • 36 mins
Al Basiri and Lawrence Lara join us in the debut episode of Sell Me This Podcast to reveal how they're turning the recruitment world upside down with Hammehr Consulting. Imagine a recruitment process grounded in honesty and driven by data, where both candidates and employers benefit from clear metrics and transparency. Learn how Al's journey from psychology to tech and Lawrence's IT leap from Australia to Calgary inspired a vision for a more transparent, data-centric recruitment approach after their pivotal roles at Solvera Solutions and its acquisition by Accenture.
Discover how data-driven recruitment is not just a buzzword but a transformative force shaping candidate experiences and retention rates. Al and Lawrence share how detailed role expectations and transparent communication are essential for building strong relationships with candidates and fostering better matches. They also touch on the emotional aspects of recruitment, the critical role of employer branding, and the importance of conveying a workplace's unique culture to attract the right talent.
We address the traditional hurdles in recruitment, from outdated sales tactics to ethical challenges posed by KPI-driven environments. Al and Lawrence provide insights into the crucial need for a more thoughtful, collaborative approach to recruitment, emphasizing the significance of clear communication and the slow, steady development of trust. Navigate through the complexities of recruitment fees and methodologies to identify agencies that add real value. Through their experiences, they advocate for a recruitment process that genuinely benefits all parties involved, setting a new standard for the industry.
Find Al and Lawrence at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/albassiri/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawrence-lara-134411b3/
https://www.hammehr.com/
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships – connect with the team at:
www.deliverdigital.ca
This episode of Sell Me This Podcast was expertly edited, filmed, and produced by Laila Hobbs and Bretten Roissl of Social Launch Labs, who deliver top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the ent
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships – connect with the team at:
www.deliverdigital.ca
This episode of Sell Me This Podcast was expertly edited, filmed, and produced by Laila Hobbs and Bretten Roissl of Social Launch Labs, who deliver top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the entire team for their dedication to crafting compelling content that engages, connects, and inspires.
Find the team at Social Launch Labs at:
www.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Where do we start?
You know playing with people'slivelihoods, keith.
They actually reduced theirtime to hire, I think down to
8.4 days.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Well, that's quick, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the very first episode of Sell Me this
Podcast.
I'm your host, keith, and todaywe're diving into a
conversation with two remarkablefounders from Calgary's
recruitment world, al Basiri andLawrence Lora of Hammer
Consulting.
So sit back and let's get intothe story behind Hammer
Consulting.
Welcome again to the inauguralepisode of Sell Me this Podcast,
for today I am honored to havewith me Al Basiri and Lawrence
(00:38):
Lora, two folks that seem to betaking the recruitment industry
in Calgary by storm.
Al and Lawrence run a companycalled Hammer Consulting, which
provides a very data-drivenapproach to traditional
recruitment services andprovides both contract and
placement services, along withrecruitment consulting for
organizations looking to managetheir talent differently.
(01:00):
I've had the honor of rubbingelbows with Alan Lawrence at a
bunch of events in town here,and also when I had my first
need for a contractor at DeliverDigital.
The team here was my first call.
So, without further ado,welcome, alan Lawrence, thank
you.
Thanks, keith, awesome.
So before we dive into thewonderful world of recruitment,
(01:20):
I'd love to learn a little bitabout you both, a little bit
about what experiences led youhere and what parts of your
career helped you to createHammer.
Do you want to start, al?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah for sure.
Where do we start?
Yeah, my background is all overthe place, so my schooling was
in psychology.
Figured I'm just going to gointo the psychologist route.
But then just decided that'snot really the path for me, so
started going into the more ofthe business world and figuring
out how do I use that degreestill towards something.
And naturally I first fell intoHR and then as I kept
progressing within the HR world,I noticed I'm liking the
(01:54):
recruiting side a lot more,especially in the tech industry.
Went into an agency to become atech recruiter and that's where
actually I went.
Lawrence and Lawrence and Istarted working together and
realizing just him and Itogether we make a tech
recruiter.
And that's where actually Iwent.
Lawrence and Lawrence and Istarted working together and
realizing just him and Itogether we make a really good
team and there's something there.
So we always had something inour heads that we should do
something.
See what we're made of outthere.
(02:15):
But before that I went away fromthat agency and went into an
in-house working with the ITconsulting firm Solvera
Solutions and at Solvera wehelped grow that business.
On my side it was 20 ServiceNowconsultants.
I grew that by another 70ServiceNow consultants.
Lawrence also came along andhelped on his end as well, and I
think, lawrence, you broughtanother 100 or so employees on
(02:37):
your side.
So because of our success andjust because of the fantastic
folks at Solvera, it grew to apoint and to a level of success
that they had a successful exitwith Accenture and they joined
that company.
And that's when we saw maybethis is our chance to now go off
and can we do the same thingfor the small to medium-sized
oriented businesses.
And so once we helped with thetransition to Accenture, we left
(02:59):
, and here we are Amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
What about you, Lawrence?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, if you talk to any recruiter how they fall into
recruitment, it's just thatthey just fall into it.
There's never a career pathinto it.
So very similar way of justfell into recruitment back in
Melbourne, australia, and I'vealways been doing IT.
I studied IT back in universitybut was quite bad at it.
So people are always like, oh,you must be very technical
(03:23):
because you did it in university.
I'm like, no, I actually failedthree of my first four subjects
and, yeah, I passed, but yeah.
So then, yeah, started around.
So then I moved over to calgarybecause my wife's champion, she
wanted to move back.
And then, yeah, met ala procomand follow the same route with
him at solvera and thenaccenture.
But there's always been a wantto see what we're made of and
(03:45):
bring those relationships toHammer that we've had previously
and create a business that wereally wanted to build or create
a company that we wanted tobuild and grow.
So that's the way it happened.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, you guys are off to an incredible start
already.
Yeah, when you think about theindustry, obviously you have a
lot of experience in largeorganizations, smaller
organizations, doing in-houserecruiting, et cetera.
Is there a specific challengethat you were looking to solve
when you set out to start Hammer, or was there a problem in the
industry that you found?
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, there were a few problems in the industry.
We just felt it was too salesy,sometimes too pushy, and that's
not the style of how we workand that's not the style we felt
our clients liked orprospective clients liked Even
candidates as well Likesometimes people would be
pushing candidates to roles thatthey weren't right, or I push
(04:41):
them into just positions wherethey don't need to be.
So we thought we could be a bitmore transparent and honest in
the approach we took, but also alittle bit more and Al can talk
more about this data-driven onhow we move forward with our
candidates and clients.
So we thought there was a spotin the recruitment industry be
better.
Essentially.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I love it.
I know we've talked a lot aboutthe idea of being data-driven
and I know this is a hugepassion of yours, Al.
What does it mean to bedata-driven in recruitment?
Oh, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, Just to go back to what Lawrence was saying
about the major challenge of therecruitment industry, I think
every recruitment agency outthere and maybe this is more
general to any service-providingtype of industry industry is
the best way they can sellthemselves within recruiting is
we hire people quick or we findpeople quickly.
That's not value.
That's the function of what arecruitment agency does.
(05:34):
So where we thought there's alot more value is a that the
challenge isn't always about.
We can't find enough candidates, so help employers unpack that
challenge, go deeper into it,understand where is it actually
that you're hurting and then gofor that specifically to help
them on that side.
So that's where the consultingside comes in and a lot of times
(05:55):
that's where the data sidecomes in as well.
Within recruitment you talk toevery CEO, every company owner,
and they'll tell you that theirpeople are their most important
aspect of the company.
But then why is the recruitmentprocess overall so inherently
tied in with like gut instinctor really basically by chance,
that they're making hiringdecisions?
(06:16):
So that's where we want to makethings a bit stronger, make
things more structured, bringmore processes in that are
allowing for more evidence-basedand science-backed
decision-making for highermanagers.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So I really like that topic and the idea of adding
some rigor and some data behindthe decisions that you're making
.
When you think about doing thatin the recruitment industry,
are there specific points ofdata that organizations just
aren't gathering?
Is there areas that they'rejust overlooking, or where's the
low hanging fruit for companiesthat are looking to be more
data driven in their recruitment?
(06:50):
100%.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
It goes all the way back to when you first
understand that, yeah, I have aneed for a job, I have a need to
fill this position.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Right from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
There needs to be a lot more time spent on defining
what success looks like.
A lot of job descriptions theydescribe the person that they're
looking for.
We need this skill, we needthis years of experience and we
need this tech stack.
Those are things that peoplehave, but maybe go back and
understand.
What is it that people need todo to be successful?
What is it that you'reperforming?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Amazing.
So I love what you're talkingabout with the data-driven
approach to recruiting, but Ihave to wonder, if I'm an
organization that's looking toget started, if I'm wondering
how I can actually start toimplement a more data-driven
approach to recruiting in myorganization, what are some of
those steps that I can take andwhat are some of the low-hanging
fruit that exists?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, you can find places toadd data in every step of the
recruitment process, but forsomeone who just want to get
into it, I think one of the bestplaces to start is right at the
beginning.
Do you understand that you havea need to fill a role?
Maybe take a little bit longerand decide what the success
actually look like on a metric,quantitative measurement side.
(07:57):
A lot of job postings out there.
They're a really gooddescription of a person, but not
a description of what it takesto be successful at that job.
So you see a lot of like youneed this many years of
experience, you need these techstacks, you need this experience
or certifications stuff likethat.
That describes a person, butwhat they need to do to be
(08:18):
successful in that role, thoseare performance objectives.
That needs to be evaluated alot more than what it is being
done today.
And then, moving from there, theinterview process itself.
That's data collection.
So why not treat that as that?
Really determine what are theactual factors you're trying to
determine are a predictingfactor of success for this role,
(08:40):
and then create a structuredinterview so that you're keeping
track of the questions you'reasking.
You're keeping track of thequestions you're asking.
You're keeping track of thewhat answers do you think are
going to be the best answers andscore those and I keep that
consistent across across thecandidates within internal.
If you have a team alreadywithin that role, do a benchmark
.
What did what does that teamhave?
(09:02):
What they're already successfulin your environment?
That's, that's great data rightthere.
What is it about theircharacteristics, their skills,
their, their fit, motivation,all that kind of stuff that was,
uh, predicting that they'regoing to fit your company and
bring that to measure for theexternal candidates as well.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So there's a lot of the work that you do then, even
before you get recruitingcoaching organizations, to think
this way, to approach thechallenge differently, to define
some of those metrics inadvance of them actually even
looking for that person is thatkind of how you would typically
get started with an organization100.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
That's what I love to do.
We now there are some companiesthat they're all in and that's
what they want, and that's ourplayground, essentially there
are some companies that aren'treally ready yet and they just
want the recruitment agencyexperience.
So we have different packagesto make sure that we're giving
the value of how that companysees it.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Perfect and Lawrence, I know that you spear up a lot
of the recruiting efforts.
What difference does it makewhen you're communicating with
candidates, when you're out inthe world talking to people,
when there's that data-drivenframework in place already in
advance?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
It helps get a better understanding of what you're
looking for.
You're basing off explainingthe role and the success of what
being successful in that rolelooks like to a candidate, so it
gives them a better image ofwhat they're going into and what
they'll be doing essentially.
Yeah, so candidates really, andthere always it's a quick high
(10:26):
level overview sometimes whenrecruiters talk to candidates.
But the more depth you giveinto conversations on your
understanding of the role andthe client, the more
appreciative they are of wantingto go ahead with you as a
recruitment agent but come backto you as well and that's
relationship building and such.
But yeah, it makes your life alot easier when you have more
(10:47):
information than less going intophone calls with candidates and
clients if need be and are youseeing any differentiation in
terms of long-term success inthose roles?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
if I think about organizations, example a is they
say, hey, you know what I needa business analyst, yeah.
Or organization b, where theycome together to you with this
in-depth package that sayshere's the metrics, here's the
KPIs, here's how they're goingto be successful.
Are you seeing differences interms of the retention or
performance with thoseindividuals?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
That's a good question and I'd be lying if I
said yes, the only reason isbecause we haven't.
I mean, we've been doing thatpackage now with our clients but
we've only been open for a yearand those placements started
six months ago potentially now.
So they are still there and wedon't have a big enough event
diagram.
But I would like to think so,because why I'd like to think so
(11:39):
and why I say probably yes, isthey're going in it knowing more
again.
But the clients are alsogetting putting success into it.
And what does that 30, 60, 90day look like?
And we're kind of coaching themto have that, those metrics
there.
So it's not just, oh, afteryour probation period you didn't
hit this and you're like wedidn't talk around that.
(11:59):
When we're given thoseobjectives and what success
metrics look like, then thecandidate knows when they start
that this is what success lookslike after X amount of days.
So then the candidate knowswhen they start that this is
what success looks like after Xamount of days.
So I think so it will prove tobe a lot better for retention.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's a good way to put it, I think anecdotally.
Yeah, it's tough because we'veonly been in business for a year
.
Yeah, if you bring in theresearch with it, definitely it
is shown to show a longer tenure.
For sure, and it goes back towe've all been candidates before
.
Recruitment's a funny industrythat everyone's experienced it.
Everyone who's working hasexperienced recruitment and
everyone's going to have theirthoughts on it and opinions on
(12:33):
it, but the overall process isnot a logical one, it's a very
emotional one.
So anything that improvescandidate experience has been
shown to make that candidatemore appreciative and, once they
become a new hire, stick withthat employer.
Yeah, and especially if theyknow the environment, as is.
(12:53):
If you're not trying to sellthat environment, if you're not
trying to just talk about thebenefits and not about what the
challenges are going to be, whatthe headaches are, you're
already setting them up forsuccess.
You're going to give them badsurprises.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Do you see a lot of the industry and I know I know
you both know this, but I did doa very brief stint for a couple
of years when I was starting mycareer in the recruitment side
and it's something that isincredibly polarizing.
When you talk to candidates,when you talk to some
organizations, I feel likeeveryone has a good story.
Everyone has their horror storyof the one time that X, y and Z
happened.
When you think about thoseexperiences that you're creating
(13:26):
, how are you seeing differentorganizations approach these
challenges in the market?
What kind of approaches arereally resonating and what are
some of the things thatcustomers should be aware of?
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I love that question, but what we're seeing nowadays
is more effort going intoemployer branding.
Less of these.
Hey, we've been voted as topemployer, but hey, here's why we
got voted as top employer.
Like, really define what is itthat makes your environment?
It can't be for everybody, sodon't sell to everybody.
So really be more genuine aboutwhat you are and what you
aren't, who you're fit for andwho you're not.
(13:58):
For the genuineness I thinkespecially now with generic AI
coming out as well, there isthat hunger of being like let's
just be human, just tell me whatI need to know, kind of thing.
So we're starting to see thatshift a little bit.
More.
More voices are coming out.
I haven't fully seen a companyembracing it, but I'm sensing
that's where it's going whenpeople are craving those human
(14:19):
interactions.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
They're craving the real relationships and I don't
know if this is still an issue,but I remember that there used
to be such a pressure to fillsome of these roles that it was
much of a sales job for therecruiter to say you're going to
be great, trust me.
And even if they knew it wasgoing to be a challenge or a fit
right off or not a fit rightoff the bat, is that still a
challenge that exists?
Is that still happening in themarket?
(14:41):
Or is that our candidates wisedup to that approach?
It's wised up to that approach.
Some of my experience in thepast and I remember this was
something that used to happen along time ago where there used
to be as much of a sales pitchfrom the recruiters themselves
(15:01):
to the candidates saying don'tworry, you're going to be great
in this role.
Trust me, even if they knew itwasn't going to be a fit, they
were just so intent on fillingit that they just sacrificed the
candidate along the way.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yes, is that still a challenge?
That's happening, or havepeople smartened up to that?
Yeah, it is a challenge, Iagree, and it's still.
I do still think that is aproblem.
There's two things.
So there's the KPIs in arecruitment agency, that kind of
push you to push a candidate in, for example, and they are
judged by KPIs, and alsoplacements and all that kind of
stuff from a larger recruitmententity.
Now, I haven't been in a largerrecruitment agency for the last
four years, so I don't want tospeak in turn about them, but
(15:30):
that's how it was a couple ofyears ago only and I can imagine
still be very similar.
But yeah, that is still aproblem.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
in short, I think filling bums in seats is
basically the way that peopleit's the professional term?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, exactly.
So I do think that is still aproblem in the industry.
That's something that wedefinitely don't do, because I
think you're playing withpeople's livelihoods, keith,
yeah, and you're playing withpeople's yeah, their careers.
I think, when you've noticedthat it's not the right
opportunity for them, you'd betotally honest and be telling
them why you think it's not theright opportunity.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And I have to imagine that plays out over the long
term right If you're doing theright things for both your
customers and the candidates,that over the long term it's
going to be more successful.
You might have some short-termroadblocks, but over the long
term it's going to grow yourbrand, grow your business, in a
much different way, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And it's like that on our business as well, and just
even like in research, it showsrecruiters and HR folks even
referral HR folks they're notthe most trusted when they try
to sell a job.
It's the hiring manager that'sthe most.
So we try to encourage thehiring managers to do postings.
Go out there.
If you can do like a quickvideo of what it takes to be
successful in your team, do that.
That's your employer brandright there Within our business
(16:45):
as well.
There was one incident of apotential client wanting a
longer guarantee period.
There are some clients thatwant to incentivize recruiters
to force essentially thecandidate to stay.
Guarantee periods are very it'slike insurance right.
To provide it you need toactually look at the environment
.
Is this the right environmentto provide the level of
insurance that you're lookingfor, that particular prospect?
(17:05):
The reason you're looking forit was more of a toxic
environment that they had highturnover, so we weren't
comfortable giving it to them.
Another client came in askingfor even a longer guarantee
period, but we saw they show upfor employees and we can easily
sell the manager, not just abusiness kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So for them we were more than happy to give it to
them.
So that actually leads me to aninteresting thought that I have
, which is in kind of thing sofor them, we were more than
happy to get into that.
So that actually leads me to aninteresting thought that I have
, which is in terms of yourideal customer, the one, the
customers that you love to workwith, that you get excited about
.
Do you have an ideal customerprofile, or how are you picking
customers that would be a greatfit for you as you grow the
business?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
yeah, it in our first year, when we first started.
That was, I think the first fewmonths were the most stressful,
and one of the things I'm mostproud of us for doing is we
turned away a couple ofcustomers.
I think there was threeincidents.
One of those was the guaranteeperiod prospect.
Another one was just right atthe beginning, a US-based agency
(18:02):
wanted to work with us and theway they wanted to work it
wasn't matching our ethics oranything like that.
So for those ones, we said no,the ones that we'd love to work
with, the clients that we wantto work with.
You know what?
At the end of the day, it's theones that show up for, the ones
that actually care about theiremployees.
That's the one that I'm goingto be able to sleep at night
knowing that a candidate Ireached out to potentially
pulled from another job thatthey already.
If that's your goal and you'redemonstrating this goal of
(18:29):
you'll do anything to make youremployees happy, you see them as
your main competitive advantage, we'll do anything for you.
We'll go above and beyond forthat client.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
So it's less about a geography, a vertical, and more
about the demeanor of thoseorganizations and their ability
to convey that as you'recoordinating them, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
We've been told to go niche and we go tech.
We haven't gone more niche thanjust the tech industry overall
yeah and then mainly the smbtype of businesses and startups
are where we've gone.
But before even going toverticals, one of the
conversations that lawrence andI had about okay, how do we do
sales, how do we go out there?
Yeah, and the one core thing wehad was kindness just if
(19:08):
nothing else reach out withkindness.
Yeah, and everything else willgo from there amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So one thing you mentioned I'm curious on your
perspective, lawrence, on thisyeah, is the engagement of the
hiring manager being reallycritical to how successful
someone will be in a role interms of the visibility, in
terms of what that job actuallyis.
And so what advice would yougive organizations, as they're
going out and they're startingto either work with recruiting
(19:34):
firms or firms or higher talentthemselves, for the involvement
of those hiring managers andwhat that means for the actual
process of bringing someone onboard?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
I tell them to be as part of the process, as much
part of the process as possible,because at the end of the day,
it is your employee that you'llbe handling from day one,
getting on board from the startto the end and just making sure
that the candidate's going wellin the process, has any
questions?
I think questions come out ofnowhere and they're like who do
(20:05):
we ask?
Do we ask the recruiter or dowe ask the hiring manager?
I always go straight to thesource.
If we do Chinese whispers, I'mgoing to say something wrong and
then they're going to be likeoh, maybe not, maybe this.
Always tell them to be very apart of the process and just be
responsive.
At the end of the day, we stillhave this trouble, to be honest
with you, to just get aresponse after 24, 48 hours for
(20:27):
questions, just submissions andjust keeping everyone in the
loop in the process betweencandidates and clients.
And just being responsive islike a huge thing that we always
push on.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And I feel like it must be a little bit of the
catch 22, because the hiringmanagers themselves and a lot of
the organizations that I talkedto everyone is so busy now
Everyone is trying to do 400different things and they're
starved for time, and I imaginethat you have customers that try
to push off some of theseresponsibilities and say, when
I'm hiring you for these rolesor these services, please just
deliver via an end product or aperson yeah, but at the same
(21:00):
time, it's going to end upcosting them more time.
100% To not be responsive, yes,to not have the right people
engaged 100%.
And are there any otherpitfalls that you're seeing
customers mistake when they'reusing services?
Either it's you or maybe it'sone of your competitors where
it's created an opportunity foryou to come in.
What are the common mistakesthat people are making when they
(21:24):
use recruitment agencies?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I think one of the big ones is and I'll touch on
this before is they think we'retechnical recruiters, right, and
they think we should be able toask questions and dive deep
into their, I guess should beable to understand if they'd be
a good senior developer or notfrom that conversation.
And that's something that isvery hard to gauge because we're
(21:57):
not doing a technicalassessment with them, we're not
like doing anything crazy, wepush it back onto them go, do
you have any questions?
That would be good to getunderstanding what the answers
are.
That would be a great fit foryour organization, an easy one,
just be like how you doobject-oriented development and
kind of just what's yourmethodology?
I like to write spaghetti code,all right, that's probably not
the right person.
You know what I mean.
(22:17):
Yeah, it's.
That's one of the one of thebig fads that everyone thinks
that you're a very technicalpeople and understand that there
are other pitfalls as well,especially, especially, that
need to come to mind.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Essentially, whenever we have conversations with
hiring managers and I justoutright ask, hey, what do you
value in recruiting me?
Right, almost 100% of the timethey're like oh, just find me
good people.
Yes, I can't do that unless youknow what good is Right, Find
good for me.
Did you take that time toactually know what that means?
And I'm like, hey, if I'm goingto pull somebody from a role
(22:50):
that they're already happy inbring to your environment,
what's the reason for that?
Why would they be motivated todo that?
And all of a sudden, when youask more targeted questions like
that, they're like oh, ourpeople, yeah, what about your
people?
So things like that theystruggle.
That recruiting agencies justreach to reach out to a
candidate, say some level oflike magic words that convinces
(23:13):
them, or should say thatconvinces them to just take the
offer.
You know, maybe a lower offer ormight be not a right job or
anything like that.
So yeah, it's a lot more.
Recruiting overall isn't just arecruiter's job, it's an
everybody.
Sometimes it goes all the wayup to the CEO right type of
thing.
It has a lot of different handsin it and it needs to so from
(23:35):
our perspective.
When it comes to technicalassessments, you need your best
technical person on that team todo the technical assessment.
There is no recruiter out there.
The best recruiter will knowall things about personnel
selection and the science ofpersonnel selection, not
solutions architects.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, and I love that you said that's always a
challenge that I've had with therecruitment industry because I
think that there's a lot ofmisleading, whether it be
advertisement or sales language,out there that talks about this
idea of the technical prescreenand the technical validation,
and I've seen it so many timesin customer organizations where
they're just misled and theydon't get what they want.
(24:12):
They get something that guidesthem down the completely wrong
path and to your point of peoplebeing a critical part of those
organizations.
It's just they end up burningtime, they end up burning money
and they could be burning theirreputation on the market as well
, which is arguably one of themost important things.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Just to that point, Keith as well.
I think that's it, that last bitof a burning reputation.
When you bring on a recruitmentagency, I think people think
just give them the job and letthem run with it.
I think you really have tounderstand, firstly, the
recruitment agency and give yourelevator pitch to that
recruitment agency why acandidate should join you.
Because at the end of the day,we're representing you as a
(24:52):
client and if we're not sayingthe right thing or it's free
marketing for us to give callsto candidates and understand
that this is the client we workwith, this is what they do.
So I think everyone runs at 100miles an hour just makes it
slow down, not get that speedingticket like some of us get, and
then just relax and give abetter understanding.
I think it's a good way toevaluate a recruitment agency as
well as like how theyunderstand your business and
(25:12):
kind of understand how to sellyour business the best way.
So that's something thatclients sometimes just get
straight into it and just needto give us a better
understanding on how to sellwhat you guys are doing.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And so you've outlined who your ideal customer
is.
You've outlined some of theprocess and some of the
challenges.
If you were to just wave amagic wand and you're in the
meeting with a CEO of your idealcustomer and you had to give
them three bullet points, realquick, what are the three things
they need to consider asthey're embarking on revamping
their recruitment strategy,specifically when it comes to
(25:48):
how to engage recruitmentagencies?
What would those three thingsbe?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Oh, great question.
I would say yeah, a recruitingagency that is focused more on
data-driven processes, moreevidence-based methodologies,
recruiting agency that is alsoworking within your employer
brand, because they are not justan extension of you, they're a
promoter of you as well.
And also a recruiting agencythat has a good reputation with
(26:14):
candidates externally as well,because both your reputations
are meshing together at thatpoint.
So you're representing aspecific client and your agency
doesn't have that right stancein the market.
That's going to not be verysuccessful either.
I'll add a fourth one as well.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
A bonus one.
A bonus one.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
A bonus one.
This isn't even withinrecruitment agencies, but it
could be in the longer term.
Add a feedback loop to yourinterview process, to your
overall hiring process.
Understand what you're doingright, what you're not doing
right.
That also gives you an idea ofin the longer term how you're
defining success in your company, but also what you would look
for within a recruiting agencyto see if that's going to be a
(26:54):
fit as well.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Amazing.
So not only did Al use allthree, he added a bonus one.
Do you have any?
Do you have any other bonusones you wanted to add Lawrence?
Speaker 3 (27:02):
No, I think he hit the nail on the head.
I think that third one, talkingabout doing reviews and
relations, I think the way thatwe always chatted Keith
beforehand and had a kind ofconversation going, but then I
think when Jamie Hawker shoutout to Jamie sent an email and
introduced that, I think thatkind of promotes the trust
between kind of using thatrecruiter or kind of at least
having that conversation starter.
So yeah, referral and networkaround who's good in the market,
(27:24):
essentially, Amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
If I could just jump in there for a second Amazing.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
If I could just jump in here for a second, al, could
you give us an example of whatthat feedback loop might look
like in that interview process?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Oh sure, so, with the feedback loop, what you can do
is if you're creating astructured interview and you
have specific factors thatyou're measuring within
candidates and now you have thesame questions and same
scorecard answers that you'reasking every single candidate
that's data Hold on to that dataand even bring it back into
their performance review Onceyou hire that candidate.
(27:52):
A year later, go back and belike okay, we thought you were
going to be great at the teamcollaboration part, as we
defined it, and sure enough youare.
Or if you're not, then maybeyou measured it wrong and go
back and recalibrate that lineof questioning.
Same thing with the candidatesthat were rejected.
Did we reject you for the rightreasons or were we just
measuring it wrong?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
And this actually brings up a thought, which is
how much of that data that youhave during the recruitment
process, especially as acontingent or sorry, I want to
rephrase that so this, so one ofthe things that that actually
brings up is the idea of thedata loss potential between an
external party and the companyitself.
And so do you see a lot oforganizations that you, even if
you have those KPIs and you haveall this data as you're
(28:39):
recruiting for these roles.
Is there a mechanismorganizations have to get those
interview notes and those thingsthat you can then later measure
on back into their hands.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I think that's our advantage of being a boutique
agency.
That's within our decision todo Bigger agencies probably not.
It's a lot more controlled thatway.
They tend to send over apresentation.
I don't really send overpresentations.
I ask a series of questions andwhatever they answered that's
what I sent For that otherpackage that we actually create
the structured interview.
We talk to the hiring managerand create something that's
(29:10):
specific to their environment.
They get the whole thing,including contact info and all
that.
We already know we'rerepresenting the candidate, but
we have trust in the client toknow that's our candidate.
And here's everything we didwhich actually brings us to a
nice point with one of ourclients.
They've been fantastic, they'vebeen so lovely and they love
the process that we did with thestructured interviews.
It actually reduced their timeto hire, I think, down to 8.4
(29:34):
days.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, that's quick, yeah.
So now, and what would theaverage be Like if I was just to
go out and do it myselftomorrow?
Speaker 1 (29:41):
If you're doing yourself anything between 30 to
45 days, you're okay.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay, so 8.4,.
That is an amazing step.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's an amazing step, yeah.
So they were so impressed thattomorrow I'm having a chat with
them and they're going to ask ifI can train them on what we did
.
Oh wow and more than happy to.
Yeah, this is a growing companyas well.
We want to see them succeed.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
We just want to be supplemental Incredible.
So my last big question isreally around, I'd say, one of
the things that is contentiousin the recruiting agency and I
think a lot of people don'tfully understand, which is the
fee structures, and it seemslike everyone has their own
interpretations of how theeconomics of the business are
(30:20):
built, and, especially if you'rehiring lots of people, those
numbers can add up reallyquickly.
What's your take on how you'redisrupting that space and how
are you making it fair forcustomers as well as yourself
and knowing that you have to runa business with the economics
of the business itself?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, the whole fee structure in the recruitment
industry.
That's a bad reputation.
I feel like the recruitmentagency industry has burned.
Yeah Right, today it's a loteasier to just type in Google
what's the average?
Oh, it gives you like a rangeof 15 to 25% or something like
that.
What we've seen in the pastwith the other agencies and
stuff like that is they're like,oh, just throw out 25%, they're
(30:56):
going to come back withsomething else and then just
work it down to like 20 anddon't go with less than that.
Yeah, that still doesn't makesense to me.
What we did is we just createddifferent tier structures and we
specified exactly what we'redoing, what is our effort at
this level with our guarantee,and then what is the more
enhanced levels, kind of thing.
So there's actual structure,something that makes sense, and
(31:17):
honestly, I can't blame beforethat kind of a more structured
approach to it.
I can't blame any employer thatis looking at agencies and
constantly pushing down thepricing, because, going back to
how recruitment agencies sellthemselves, I can find you
people quick.
Every agency is coming out.
I still get recruitmentagencies.
I'm talking to an agency and ifthat's the only sell you have,
(31:38):
I have no way to compare you to,like another agency to another.
So the only thing, the onlyfactor that I have to compare
you to is your price.
So of course, I'm going todrive down to the lowest price
agency, because you all soundlike you do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
So what questions could a customer ask if they're
in a meeting with you or some ofyour competitors to help to
identify what customers areserious about adding value to
those services and what are justtruly trying to turn people
around very quickly.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
For sure.
I just recently had aconversation with somebody at an
event and holy cow, he askedamazing questions.
I wish I could remember all ofthem, but yeah, he went deep
into it.
We had a banner that saiddata-driven recruitment, better
employer branding, but it's okay.
So what sets you guys apart?
What do you actually mean bydata-driven?
What do you actually mean bythis?
Yeah, go nitty gritty.
(32:25):
When somebody asks me that kindof stuff, I'm excited because I
you nerd out about it.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, I get to nerd out, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
But yeah, a lot of recruitment agencies they say,
oh, we have our hiring process,we call it whatever the best fit
.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
You know I trademark it a lot, so I'm like, okay,
what is the best fit?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And it turns out oh, we interview candidates and we
send them to you.
That's nitty gritty intocalling out exactly what they do
.
What is your actual process?
What is your actual approach tocandidates?
How are you doing this Ifthey're selling the size of your
database?
So how are you reached?
What are you actually doing?
That kind of stuff helps, andthen maybe also pay attention to
(33:02):
the questions that agencieshave.
That also indicates.
What you measure is what youcare about, right, so what the
recruitment agency is asking,that might indicate what they're
actually trying to get to aswell.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Amazing.
I feel like I could pick bothof your brains for the next four
hours in terms of this topic.
So I did promise you theopportunity or maybe curse to
pitch your services here.
So why would someone and Idon't know which one of you
wants to be the brave tributehere, but why would someone want
to work with Hammer Consulting?
And really, what sets you apart?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That is so I guess I'll start with.
We don't really do pitchesbecause we go so specific to
whatever challenges we canunearth and then, based on those
challenges, sell ourselves.
That way, if I give ageneralized pitch and I'm going
to try and do this off the topof my head here is Hammer Talent
Consultants.
We named it Talent Consultantsfor a reason, not just an agency
.
We are for employers whounderstand that nothing is more
important than hiring the rightpeople for their team, and they
(33:56):
see their employees as the bestcompetitive advantage that they
have.
These are employers who value amore science-based approach and
data driven approach becausethey want to get away from the
gut instinct of making hiringdecisions.
Through our recruitment, weinspire and empower those
employers to focus more on theirdata-driven processes, their
(34:18):
employer branding and theircandidate experiences.
If a client is willing to showup for all those, we're willing
to show up for them and gobeyond.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Amazing.
So, last but not least, I don'tknow, lawrence, if you wanted
to do it from a candidate sideof things.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, that's tough to be.
I had something funny going inmy head and I was like that's
true.
I was yeah, with faces for radioand kind of mediocre
personalities, it makes it veryhard to justify why going with
us.
But we are relationship-basedat the end of the day and we
want to give a candidate andclient experience the best
possible way, by beingtransparent and honest is how I
(34:54):
like to put it.
But also Owl's been on thedata-driven recruitment and
bringing these differentprocesses in which kind of makes
us a very unique and differentway of recruiting, and we'd love
to continue to show clients andcandidates how we work.
So, that's the quickest pitch onmy end.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I love it.
So if someone wanted to get intouch with you, what would the
best way for them to do?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
that be oh man.
Feel free to reach out toLinkedIn.
Email is albasseriathammercom.
Join our Hammer LinkedIn pageas well.
We have our website, hammehrcomYep.
Feel free to go through thecontact us section.
Reach out to us there.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Perfect, and I'll put these all in the notes as well,
but thank you so much for bothof you for coming out today.
It's been a blast.
Like I said, we probably couldhave talked for four more hours.
You're both a wealth ofknowledge in this area and I
just really appreciate the timethat you've given for world of
recruitment.
So thanks a bunch and have anawesome day.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Thank you so much, Keith, yeah cool.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Thanks for tuning in.
If you found value in thisepisode, make sure to subscribe
and leave us a review.
We've got a lot moreconversations coming up with a
whole lot of inspiring businessleaders who are redefining what
it means to succeed.
Until next time, I'm Keith andthis is Sell Me this podcast.
Where do we start?
You know playing with people'slivelihoods, keith.
They actually reduced theirtime to hire, I think down to
8.4 days.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Well, that's quick, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the very first episode of Sell Me this
Podcast.
I'm your host, keith, and todaywe're diving into a
conversation with two remarkablefounders from Calgary's
recruitment world, al Basiri andLawrence Lora of Hammer
Consulting.
So sit back and let's get intothe story behind Hammer
Consulting.
Welcome again to the inauguralepisode of Sell Me this Podcast,
for today I am honored to havewith me Al Basiri and Lawrence
(00:38):
Lora, two folks that seem to betaking the recruitment industry
in Calgary by storm.
Al and Lawrence run a companycalled Hammer Consulting, which
provides a very data-drivenapproach to traditional
recruitment services andprovides both contract and
placement services, along withrecruitment consulting for
organizations looking to managetheir talent differently.
(01:00):
I've had the honor of rubbingelbows with Alan Lawrence at a
bunch of events in town here,and also when I had my first
need for a contractor at DeliverDigital.
The team here was my first call.
So, without further ado,welcome, alan Lawrence, thank
you.
Thanks, keith, awesome.
So before we dive into thewonderful world of recruitment,
(01:20):
I'd love to learn a little bitabout you both, a little bit
about what experiences led youhere and what parts of your
career helped you to createHammer.
Do you want to start, al?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah for sure.
Where do we start?
Yeah, my background is all overthe place, so my schooling was
in psychology.
Figured I'm just going to gointo the psychologist route.
But then just decided that'snot really the path for me, so
started going into the more ofthe business world and figuring
out how do I use that degreestill towards something.
And naturally I first fell intoHR and then as I kept
progressing within the HR world,I noticed I'm liking the
(01:54):
recruiting side a lot more,especially in the tech industry.
Went into an agency to become atech recruiter and that's where
actually I went.
Lawrence and Lawrence and Istarted working together and
realizing just him and Itogether we make a tech
recruiter.
And that's where actually Iwent.
Lawrence and Lawrence and Istarted working together and
realizing just him and Itogether we make a really good
team and there's something there.
So we always had something inour heads that we should do
something.
See what we're made of outthere.
(02:15):
But before that I went away fromthat agency and went into an
in-house working with the ITconsulting firm Solvera
Solutions and at Solvera wehelped grow that business.
On my side it was 20 ServiceNowconsultants.
I grew that by another 70ServiceNow consultants.
Lawrence also came along andhelped on his end as well, and I
think, lawrence, you broughtanother 100 or so employees on
(02:37):
your side.
So because of our success andjust because of the fantastic
folks at Solvera, it grew to apoint and to a level of success
that they had a successful exitwith Accenture and they joined
that company.
And that's when we saw maybethis is our chance to now go off
and can we do the same thingfor the small to medium-sized
oriented businesses.
And so once we helped with thetransition to Accenture, we left
(02:59):
, and here we are Amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
What about you, Lawrence?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yes, if you talk to any recruiter how they fall into
recruitment, it's just thatthey just fall into it.
There's never a career pathinto it.
So very similar way of justfell into recruitment back in
Melbourne, australia, and I'vealways been doing IT.
I studied IT back in universitybut was quite bad at it.
So people are always like, oh,you must be very technical
(03:23):
because you did it in university.
I'm like, no, I actually failedthree of my first four subjects
and, yeah, I passed, but yeah.
So then, yeah, started around.
So then I moved over to calgarybecause my wife's champion, she
wanted to move back.
And then, yeah, met ala procomand follow the same route with
him at solvera and thenaccenture.
But there's always been a wantto see what we're made of and
(03:45):
bring those relationships toHammer that we've had previously
and create a business that wereally wanted to build or create
a company that we wanted tobuild and grow.
So that's the way it happened.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, you guys are off to an incredible start
already.
Yeah, when you think about theindustry, obviously you have a
lot of experience in largeorganizations, smaller
organizations, doing in-houserecruiting, et cetera.
Is there a specific challengethat you were looking to solve
when you set out to start Hammer, or was there a problem in the
industry that you found?
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, there were a few problems in the industry.
We just felt it was too salesy,sometimes too pushy, and that's
not the style of how we workand that's not the style we felt
our clients liked orprospective clients liked Even
candidates as well Likesometimes people would be
pushing candidates to roles thatthey weren't right, or I push
(04:41):
them into just positions wherethey don't need to be.
So we thought we could be a bitmore transparent and honest in
the approach we took, but also alittle bit more and Al can talk
more about this data-driven onhow we move forward with our
candidates and clients.
So we thought there was a spotin the recruitment industry be
better.
Essentially.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I love it.
I know we've talked a lot aboutthe idea of being data-driven
and I know this is a hugepassion of yours, Al.
What does it mean to bedata-driven in recruitment?
Oh, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, Just to go back to what Lawrence was saying
about the major challenge of therecruitment industry, I think
every recruitment agency outthere and maybe this is more
general to any service-providingtype of industry industry is
the best way they can sellthemselves within recruiting is
we hire people quick or we findpeople quickly.
That's not value.
That's the function of what arecruitment agency does.
(05:34):
So where we thought there's alot more value is a that the
challenge isn't always about.
We can't find enough candidates, so help employers unpack that
challenge, go deeper into it,understand where is it actually
that you're hurting and then gofor that specifically to help
them on that side.
So that's where the consultingside comes in and a lot of times
(05:55):
that's where the data sidecomes in as well.
Within recruitment you talk toevery CEO, every company owner,
and they'll tell you that theirpeople are their most important
aspect of the company.
But then why is the recruitmentprocess overall so inherently
tied in with like gut instinctor really basically by chance,
that they're making hiringdecisions?
(06:16):
So that's where we want to makethings a bit stronger, make
things more structured, bringmore processes in that are
allowing for more evidence-basedand science-backed
decision-making for highermanagers.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
So I really like that topic and the idea of adding
some rigor and some data behindthe decisions that you're making
.
When you think about doing thatin the recruitment industry,
are there specific points ofdata that organizations just
aren't gathering?
Is there areas that they'rejust overlooking, or where's the
low hanging fruit for companiesthat are looking to be more
data driven in their recruitment?
(06:50):
100%.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
It goes all the way back to when you first
understand that, yeah, I have aneed for a job, I have a need to
fill this position.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Right from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
There needs to be a lot more time spent on defining
what success looks like.
A lot of job descriptions theydescribe the person that they're
looking for.
We need this skill, we needthis years of experience and we
need this tech stack.
Those are things that peoplehave, but maybe go back and
understand.
What is it that people need todo to be successful?
What is it that you'reperforming?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Amazing.
So I love what you're talkingabout with the data-driven
approach to recruiting, but Ihave to wonder, if I'm an
organization that's looking toget started, if I'm wondering
how I can actually start toimplement a more data-driven
approach to recruiting in myorganization, what are some of
those steps that I can take andwhat are some of the low-hanging
fruit that exists?
Speaker 1 (07:37):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, you can find places toadd data in every step of the
recruitment process, but forsomeone who just want to get
into it, I think one of the bestplaces to start is right at the
beginning.
Do you understand that you havea need to fill a role?
Maybe take a little bit longerand decide what the success
actually look like on a metric,quantitative measurement side.
(07:57):
A lot of job postings out there.
They're a really gooddescription of a person, but not
a description of what it takesto be successful at that job.
So you see a lot of like youneed this many years of
experience, you need these techstacks, you need this experience
or certifications stuff likethat.
That describes a person, butwhat they need to do to be
(08:18):
successful in that role, thoseare performance objectives.
That needs to be evaluated alot more than what it is being
done today.
And then, moving from there, theinterview process itself.
That's data collection.
So why not treat that as that?
Really determine what are theactual factors you're trying to
determine are a predictingfactor of success for this role,
(08:40):
and then create a structuredinterview so that you're keeping
track of the questions you'reasking.
You're keeping track of thequestions you're asking.
You're keeping track of thewhat answers do you think are
going to be the best answers andscore those and I keep that
consistent across across thecandidates within internal.
If you have a team alreadywithin that role, do a benchmark
.
What did what does that teamhave?
(09:02):
What they're already successfulin your environment?
That's, that's great data rightthere.
What is it about theircharacteristics, their skills,
their, their fit, motivation,all that kind of stuff that was,
uh, predicting that they'regoing to fit your company and
bring that to measure for theexternal candidates as well.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So there's a lot of the work that you do then, even
before you get recruitingcoaching organizations, to think
this way, to approach thechallenge differently, to define
some of those metrics inadvance of them actually even
looking for that person is thatkind of how you would typically
get started with an organization100.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
That's what I love to do.
We now there are some companiesthat they're all in and that's
what they want, and that's ourplayground, essentially there
are some companies that aren'treally ready yet and they just
want the recruitment agencyexperience.
So we have different packagesto make sure that we're giving
the value of how that companysees it.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Perfect and Lawrence, I know that you spear up a lot
of the recruiting efforts.
What difference does it makewhen you're communicating with
candidates, when you're out inthe world talking to people,
when there's that data-drivenframework in place already in
advance?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
It helps get a better understanding of what you're
looking for.
You're basing off explainingthe role and the success of what
being successful in that rolelooks like to a candidate, so it
gives them a better image ofwhat they're going into and what
they'll be doing essentially.
Yeah, so candidates really, andthere always it's a quick high
(10:26):
level overview sometimes whenrecruiters talk to candidates.
But the more depth you giveinto conversations on your
understanding of the role andthe client, the more
appreciative they are of wantingto go ahead with you as a
recruitment agent but come backto you as well and that's
relationship building and such.
But yeah, it makes your life alot easier when you have more
(10:47):
information than less going intophone calls with candidates and
clients if need be and are youseeing any differentiation in
terms of long-term success inthose roles?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
if I think about organizations, example a is they
say, hey, you know what I needa business analyst, yeah.
Or organization b, where theycome together to you with this
in-depth package that sayshere's the metrics, here's the
KPIs, here's how they're goingto be successful.
Are you seeing differences interms of the retention or
performance with thoseindividuals?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
That's a good question and I'd be lying if I
said yes, the only reason isbecause we haven't.
I mean, we've been doing thatpackage now with our clients but
we've only been open for a yearand those placements started
six months ago potentially now.
So they are still there and wedon't have a big enough event
diagram.
But I would like to think so,because why I'd like to think so
(11:39):
and why I say probably yes, isthey're going in it knowing more
again.
But the clients are alsogetting putting success into it.
And what does that 30, 60, 90day look like?
And we're kind of coaching themto have that, those metrics
there.
So it's not just, oh, afteryour probation period you didn't
hit this and you're like wedidn't talk around that.
(11:59):
When we're given thoseobjectives and what success
metrics look like, then thecandidate knows when they start
that this is what success lookslike after X amount of days.
So then the candidate knowswhen they start that this is
what success looks like after Xamount of days.
So I think so it will prove tobe a lot better for retention.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's a good way to put it, I think anecdotally.
Yeah, it's tough because we'veonly been in business for a year
.
Yeah, if you bring in theresearch with it, definitely it
is shown to show a longer tenure.
For sure, and it goes back towe've all been candidates before
.
Recruitment's a funny industrythat everyone's experienced it.
Everyone who's working hasexperienced recruitment and
everyone's going to have theirthoughts on it and opinions on
(12:33):
it, but the overall process isnot a logical one, it's a very
emotional one.
So anything that improvescandidate experience has been
shown to make that candidatemore appreciative and, once they
become a new hire, stick withthat employer.
Yeah, and especially if theyknow the environment, as is.
(12:53):
If you're not trying to sellthat environment, if you're not
trying to just talk about thebenefits and not about what the
challenges are going to be, whatthe headaches are, you're
already setting them up forsuccess.
You're going to give them badsurprises.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Do you see a lot of the industry and I know I know
you both know this, but I did doa very brief stint for a couple
of years when I was starting mycareer in the recruitment side
and it's something that isincredibly polarizing.
When you talk to candidates,when you talk to some
organizations, I feel likeeveryone has a good story.
Everyone has their horror storyof the one time that X, y and Z
happened.
When you think about thoseexperiences that you're creating
(13:26):
, how are you seeing differentorganizations approach these
challenges in the market?
What kind of approaches arereally resonating and what are
some of the things thatcustomers should be aware of?
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I love that question, but what we're seeing nowadays
is more effort going intoemployer branding.
Less of these.
Hey, we've been voted as topemployer, but hey, here's why we
got voted as top employer.
Like, really define what is itthat makes your environment?
It can't be for everybody, sodon't sell to everybody.
So really be more genuine aboutwhat you are and what you
aren't, who you're fit for andwho you're not.
(13:58):
For the genuineness I thinkespecially now with generic AI
coming out as well, there isthat hunger of being like let's
just be human, just tell me whatI need to know, kind of thing.
So we're starting to see thatshift a little bit.
More.
More voices are coming out.
I haven't fully seen a companyembracing it, but I'm sensing
that's where it's going whenpeople are craving those human
(14:19):
interactions.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
They're craving the real relationships and I don't
know if this is still an issue,but I remember that there used
to be such a pressure to fillsome of these roles that it was
much of a sales job for therecruiter to say you're going to
be great, trust me.
And even if they knew it wasgoing to be a challenge or a fit
right off or not a fit rightoff the bat, is that still a
challenge that exists?
Is that still happening in themarket?
(14:41):
Or is that our candidates wisedup to that approach?
It's wised up to that approach.
Some of my experience in thepast and I remember this was
something that used to happen along time ago where there used
to be as much of a sales pitchfrom the recruiters themselves
(15:01):
to the candidates saying don'tworry, you're going to be great
in this role.
Trust me, even if they knew itwasn't going to be a fit, they
were just so intent on fillingit that they just sacrificed the
candidate along the way.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yes, is that still a challenge?
That's happening, or havepeople smartened up to that?
Yeah, it is a challenge, Iagree, and it's still.
I do still think that is aproblem.
There's two things.
So there's the KPIs in arecruitment agency, that kind of
push you to push a candidate in, for example, and they are
judged by KPIs, and alsoplacements and all that kind of
stuff from a larger recruitmententity.
Now, I haven't been in a largerrecruitment agency for the last
four years, so I don't want tospeak in turn about them, but
(15:30):
that's how it was a couple ofyears ago only and I can imagine
still be very similar.
But yeah, that is still aproblem.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
in short, I think filling bums in seats is
basically the way that peopleit's the professional term?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, exactly.
So I do think that is still aproblem in the industry.
That's something that wedefinitely don't do, because I
think you're playing withpeople's livelihoods, keith,
yeah, and you're playing withpeople's yeah, their careers.
I think, when you've noticedthat it's not the right
opportunity for them, you'd betotally honest and be telling
them why you think it's not theright opportunity.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And I have to imagine that plays out over the long
term right If you're doing theright things for both your
customers and the candidates,that over the long term it's
going to be more successful.
You might have some short-termroadblocks, but over the long
term it's going to grow yourbrand, grow your business, in a
much different way, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And it's like that on our business as well, and just
even like in research, it showsrecruiters and HR folks even
referral HR folks they're notthe most trusted when they try
to sell a job.
It's the hiring manager that'sthe most.
So we try to encourage thehiring managers to do postings.
Go out there.
If you can do like a quickvideo of what it takes to be
successful in your team, do that.
That's your employer brandright there Within our business
(16:45):
as well.
There was one incident of apotential client wanting a
longer guarantee period.
There are some clients thatwant to incentivize recruiters
to force essentially thecandidate to stay.
Guarantee periods are very it'slike insurance right.
To provide it you need toactually look at the environment
.
Is this the right environmentto provide the level of
insurance that you're lookingfor, that particular prospect?
(17:05):
The reason you're looking forit was more of a toxic
environment that they had highturnover, so we weren't
comfortable giving it to them.
Another client came in askingfor even a longer guarantee
period, but we saw they show upfor employees and we can easily
sell the manager, not just abusiness kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So for them we were more than happy to give it to
them.
So that actually leads me to aninteresting thought that I have
, which is in kind of thing sofor them, we were more than
happy to get into that.
So that actually leads me to aninteresting thought that I have
, which is in terms of yourideal customer, the one, the
customers that you love to workwith, that you get excited about
.
Do you have an ideal customerprofile, or how are you picking
customers that would be a greatfit for you as you grow the
business?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
yeah, it in our first year, when we first started.
That was, I think the first fewmonths were the most stressful,
and one of the things I'm mostproud of us for doing is we
turned away a couple ofcustomers.
I think there was threeincidents.
One of those was the guaranteeperiod prospect.
Another one was just right atthe beginning, a US-based agency
(18:02):
wanted to work with us and theway they wanted to work it
wasn't matching our ethics oranything like that.
So for those ones, we said no,the ones that we'd love to work
with, the clients that we wantto work with.
You know what?
At the end of the day, it's theones that show up for, the ones
that actually care about theiremployees.
That's the one that I'm goingto be able to sleep at night
knowing that a candidate Ireached out to potentially
pulled from another job thatthey already.
If that's your goal and you'redemonstrating this goal of
(18:29):
you'll do anything to make youremployees happy, you see them as
your main competitive advantage, we'll do anything for you.
We'll go above and beyond forthat client.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
So it's less about a geography, a vertical, and more
about the demeanor of thoseorganizations and their ability
to convey that as you'recoordinating them, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
We've been told to go niche and we go tech.
We haven't gone more niche thanjust the tech industry overall
yeah and then mainly the smbtype of businesses and startups
are where we've gone.
But before even going toverticals, one of the
conversations that lawrence andI had about okay, how do we do
sales, how do we go out there?
Yeah, and the one core thing wehad was kindness just if
(19:08):
nothing else reach out withkindness.
Yeah, and everything else willgo from there amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So one thing you mentioned I'm curious on your
perspective, lawrence, on thisyeah, is the engagement of the
hiring manager being reallycritical to how successful
someone will be in a role interms of the visibility, in
terms of what that job actuallyis.
And so what advice would yougive organizations, as they're
going out and they're startingto either work with recruiting
(19:34):
firms or firms or higher talentthemselves, for the involvement
of those hiring managers andwhat that means for the actual
process of bringing someone onboard?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
I tell them to be as part of the process, as much
part of the process as possible,because at the end of the day,
it is your employee that you'llbe handling from day one,
getting on board from the startto the end and just making sure
that the candidate's going wellin the process, has any
questions?
I think questions come out ofnowhere and they're like who do
(20:05):
we ask?
Do we ask the recruiter or dowe ask the hiring manager?
I always go straight to thesource.
If we do Chinese whispers, I'mgoing to say something wrong and
then they're going to be likeoh, maybe not, maybe this.
Always tell them to be very apart of the process and just be
responsive.
At the end of the day, we stillhave this trouble, to be honest
with you, to just get aresponse after 24, 48 hours for
(20:27):
questions, just submissions andjust keeping everyone in the
loop in the process betweencandidates and clients.
And just being responsive islike a huge thing that we always
push on.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And I feel like it must be a little bit of the
catch 22, because the hiringmanagers themselves and a lot of
the organizations that I talkedto everyone is so busy now
Everyone is trying to do 400different things and they're
starved for time, and I imaginethat you have customers that try
to push off some of theseresponsibilities and say, when
I'm hiring you for these rolesor these services, please just
deliver via an end product or aperson yeah, but at the same
(21:00):
time, it's going to end upcosting them more time.
100% To not be responsive, yes,to not have the right people
engaged 100%.
And are there any otherpitfalls that you're seeing
customers mistake when they'reusing services?
Either it's you or maybe it'sone of your competitors where
it's created an opportunity foryou to come in.
What are the common mistakesthat people are making when they
(21:24):
use recruitment agencies?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I think one of the big ones is and I'll touch on
this before is they think we'retechnical recruiters, right, and
they think we should be able toask questions and dive deep
into their, I guess should beable to understand if they'd be
a good senior developer or notfrom that conversation.
And that's something that isvery hard to gauge because we're
(21:57):
not doing a technicalassessment with them, we're not
like doing anything crazy, wepush it back onto them go, do
you have any questions?
That would be good to getunderstanding what the answers
are.
That would be a great fit foryour organization, an easy one,
just be like how you doobject-oriented development and
kind of just what's yourmethodology?
I like to write spaghetti code,all right, that's probably not
the right person.
You know what I mean.
(22:17):
Yeah, it's.
That's one of the one of thebig fads that everyone thinks
that you're a very technicalpeople and understand that there
are other pitfalls as well,especially, especially, that
need to come to mind.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Essentially, whenever we have conversations with
hiring managers and I justoutright ask, hey, what do you
value in recruiting me?
Right, almost 100% of the timethey're like oh, just find me
good people.
Yes, I can't do that unless youknow what good is Right, Find
good for me.
Did you take that time toactually know what that means?
And I'm like, hey, if I'm goingto pull somebody from a role
(22:50):
that they're already happy inbring to your environment,
what's the reason for that?
Why would they be motivated todo that?
And all of a sudden, when youask more targeted questions like
that, they're like oh, ourpeople, yeah, what about your
people?
So things like that theystruggle.
That recruiting agencies justreach to reach out to a
candidate, say some level oflike magic words that convinces
(23:13):
them, or should say thatconvinces them to just take the
offer.
You know, maybe a lower offer ormight be not a right job or
anything like that.
So yeah, it's a lot more.
Recruiting overall isn't just arecruiter's job, it's an
everybody.
Sometimes it goes all the wayup to the CEO right type of
thing.
It has a lot of different handsin it and it needs to so from
(23:35):
our perspective.
When it comes to technicalassessments, you need your best
technical person on that team todo the technical assessment.
There is no recruiter out there.
The best recruiter will knowall things about personnel
selection and the science ofpersonnel selection, not
solutions architects.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, and I love that you said that's always a
challenge that I've had with therecruitment industry because I
think that there's a lot ofmisleading, whether it be
advertisement or sales language,out there that talks about this
idea of the technical prescreenand the technical validation,
and I've seen it so many timesin customer organizations where
they're just misled and theydon't get what they want.
(24:12):
They get something that guidesthem down the completely wrong
path and to your point of peoplebeing a critical part of those
organizations.
It's just they end up burningtime, they end up burning money
and they could be burning theirreputation on the market as well
, which is arguably one of themost important things.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Just to that point, Keith as well.
I think that's it, that last bitof a burning reputation.
When you bring on a recruitmentagency, I think people think
just give them the job and letthem run with it.
I think you really have tounderstand, firstly, the
recruitment agency and give yourelevator pitch to that
recruitment agency why acandidate should join you.
Because at the end of the day,we're representing you as a
(24:52):
client and if we're not sayingthe right thing or it's free
marketing for us to give callsto candidates and understand
that this is the client we workwith, this is what they do.
So I think everyone runs at 100miles an hour just makes it
slow down, not get that speedingticket like some of us get, and
then just relax and give abetter understanding.
I think it's a good way toevaluate a recruitment agency as
well as like how theyunderstand your business and
(25:12):
kind of understand how to sellyour business the best way.
So that's something thatclients sometimes just get
straight into it and just needto give us a better
understanding on how to sellwhat you guys are doing.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And so you've outlined who your ideal customer
is.
You've outlined some of theprocess and some of the
challenges.
If you were to just wave amagic wand and you're in the
meeting with a CEO of your idealcustomer and you had to give
them three bullet points, realquick, what are the three things
they need to consider asthey're embarking on revamping
their recruitment strategy,specifically when it comes to
(25:48):
how to engage recruitmentagencies?
What would those three thingsbe?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Oh, great question.
I would say yeah, a recruitingagency that is focused more on
data-driven processes, moreevidence-based methodologies,
recruiting agency that is alsoworking within your employer
brand, because they are not justan extension of you, they're a
promoter of you as well.
And also a recruiting agencythat has a good reputation with
(26:14):
candidates externally as well,because both your reputations
are meshing together at thatpoint.
So you're representing aspecific client and your agency
doesn't have that right stancein the market.
That's going to not be verysuccessful either.
I'll add a fourth one as well.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
A bonus one.
A bonus one.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
A bonus one.
This isn't even withinrecruitment agencies, but it
could be in the longer term.
Add a feedback loop to yourinterview process, to your
overall hiring process.
Understand what you're doingright, what you're not doing
right.
That also gives you an idea ofin the longer term how you're
defining success in your company, but also what you would look
for within a recruiting agencyto see if that's going to be a
(26:54):
fit as well.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Amazing.
So not only did Al use allthree, he added a bonus one.
Do you have any?
Do you have any other bonusones you wanted to add Lawrence?
Speaker 3 (27:02):
No, I think he hit the nail on the head.
I think that third one, talkingabout doing reviews and
relations, I think the way thatwe always chatted Keith
beforehand and had a kind ofconversation going, but then I
think when Jamie Hawker shoutout to Jamie sent an email and
introduced that, I think thatkind of promotes the trust
between kind of using thatrecruiter or kind of at least
having that conversation starter.
So yeah, referral and networkaround who's good in the market,
(27:24):
essentially, Amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
If I could just jump in there for a second Amazing.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
If I could just jump in here for a second, al, could
you give us an example of whatthat feedback loop might look
like in that interview process?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Oh sure, so, with the feedback loop, what you can do
is if you're creating astructured interview and you
have specific factors thatyou're measuring within
candidates and now you have thesame questions and same
scorecard answers that you'reasking every single candidate
that's data Hold on to that dataand even bring it back into
their performance review Onceyou hire that candidate.
(27:52):
A year later, go back and belike okay, we thought you were
going to be great at the teamcollaboration part, as we
defined it, and sure enough youare.
Or if you're not, then maybeyou measured it wrong and go
back and recalibrate that lineof questioning.
Same thing with the candidatesthat were rejected.
Did we reject you for the rightreasons or were we just
measuring it wrong?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
And this actually brings up a thought, which is
how much of that data that youhave during the recruitment
process, especially as acontingent or sorry, I want to
rephrase that so this, so one ofthe things that that actually
brings up is the idea of thedata loss potential between an
external party and the companyitself.
And so do you see a lot oforganizations that you, even if
you have those KPIs and you haveall this data as you're
(28:39):
recruiting for these roles.
Is there a mechanismorganizations have to get those
interview notes and those thingsthat you can then later measure
on back into their hands.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I think that's our advantage of being a boutique
agency.
That's within our decision todo Bigger agencies probably not.
It's a lot more controlled thatway.
They tend to send over apresentation.
I don't really send overpresentations.
I ask a series of questions andwhatever they answered that's
what I sent For that otherpackage that we actually create
the structured interview.
We talk to the hiring managerand create something that's
(29:10):
specific to their environment.
They get the whole thing,including contact info and all
that.
We already know we'rerepresenting the candidate, but
we have trust in the client toknow that's our candidate.
And here's everything we didwhich actually brings us to a
nice point with one of ourclients.
They've been fantastic, they'vebeen so lovely and they love
the process that we did with thestructured interviews.
It actually reduced their timeto hire, I think, down to 8.4
(29:34):
days.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, that's quick, yeah.
So now, and what would theaverage be Like if I was just to
go out and do it myselftomorrow?
Speaker 1 (29:41):
If you're doing yourself anything between 30 to
45 days, you're okay.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Okay, so 8.4,.
That is an amazing step.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's an amazing step, yeah.
So they were so impressed thattomorrow I'm having a chat with
them and they're going to ask ifI can train them on what we did
.
Oh wow and more than happy to.
Yeah, this is a growing companyas well.
We want to see them succeed.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
We just want to be supplemental Incredible.
So my last big question isreally around, I'd say, one of
the things that is contentiousin the recruiting agency and I
think a lot of people don'tfully understand, which is the
fee structures, and it seemslike everyone has their own
interpretations of how theeconomics of the business are
(30:20):
built, and, especially if you'rehiring lots of people, those
numbers can add up reallyquickly.
What's your take on how you'redisrupting that space and how
are you making it fair forcustomers as well as yourself
and knowing that you have to runa business with the economics
of the business itself?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, the whole fee structure in the recruitment
industry.
That's a bad reputation.
I feel like the recruitmentagency industry has burned.
Yeah Right, today it's a loteasier to just type in Google
what's the average?
Oh, it gives you like a rangeof 15 to 25% or something like
that.
What we've seen in the pastwith the other agencies and
stuff like that is they're like,oh, just throw out 25%, they're
(30:56):
going to come back withsomething else and then just
work it down to like 20 anddon't go with less than that.
Yeah, that still doesn't makesense to me.
What we did is we just createddifferent tier structures and we
specified exactly what we'redoing, what is our effort at
this level with our guarantee,and then what is the more
enhanced levels, kind of thing.
So there's actual structure,something that makes sense, and
(31:17):
honestly, I can't blame beforethat kind of a more structured
approach to it.
I can't blame any employer thatis looking at agencies and
constantly pushing down thepricing, because, going back to
how recruitment agencies sellthemselves, I can find you
people quick.
Every agency is coming out.
I still get recruitmentagencies.
I'm talking to an agency and ifthat's the only sell you have,
(31:38):
I have no way to compare you to,like another agency to another.
So the only thing, the onlyfactor that I have to compare
you to is your price.
So of course, I'm going todrive down to the lowest price
agency, because you all soundlike you do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
So what questions could a customer ask if they're
in a meeting with you or some ofyour competitors to help to
identify what customers areserious about adding value to
those services and what are justtruly trying to turn people
around very quickly.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
For sure.
I just recently had aconversation with somebody at an
event and holy cow, he askedamazing questions.
I wish I could remember all ofthem, but yeah, he went deep
into it.
We had a banner that saiddata-driven recruitment, better
employer branding, but it's okay.
So what sets you guys apart?
What do you actually mean bydata-driven?
What do you actually mean bythis?
Yeah, go nitty gritty.
(32:25):
When somebody asks me that kindof stuff, I'm excited because I
you nerd out about it.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, I get to nerd out, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
But yeah, a lot of recruitment agencies they say,
oh, we have our hiring process,we call it whatever the best fit
.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
You know I trademark it a lot, so I'm like, okay,
what is the best fit?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And it turns out oh, we interview candidates and we
send them to you.
That's nitty gritty intocalling out exactly what they do
.
What is your actual process?
What is your actual approach tocandidates?
How are you doing this Ifthey're selling the size of your
database?
So how are you reached?
What are you actually doing?
That kind of stuff helps, andthen maybe also pay attention to
(33:02):
the questions that agencieshave.
That also indicates.
What you measure is what youcare about, right, so what the
recruitment agency is asking,that might indicate what they're
actually trying to get to aswell.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Amazing.
I feel like I could pick bothof your brains for the next four
hours in terms of this topic.
So I did promise you theopportunity or maybe curse to
pitch your services here.
So why would someone and Idon't know which one of you
wants to be the brave tributehere, but why would someone want
to work with Hammer Consulting?
And really, what sets you apart?
Speaker 1 (33:36):
That is so I guess I'll start with.
We don't really do pitchesbecause we go so specific to
whatever challenges we canunearth and then, based on those
challenges, sell ourselves.
That way, if I give ageneralized pitch and I'm going
to try and do this off the topof my head here is Hammer Talent
Consultants.
We named it Talent Consultantsfor a reason, not just an agency
.
We are for employers whounderstand that nothing is more
important than hiring the rightpeople for their team, and they
(33:56):
see their employees as the bestcompetitive advantage that they
have.
These are employers who value amore science-based approach and
data driven approach becausethey want to get away from the
gut instinct of making hiringdecisions.
Through our recruitment, weinspire and empower those
employers to focus more on theirdata-driven processes, their
(34:18):
employer branding and theircandidate experiences.
If a client is willing to showup for all those, we're willing
to show up for them and gobeyond.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Amazing.
So, last but not least, I don'tknow, lawrence, if you wanted
to do it from a candidate sideof things.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, that's tough to be.
I had something funny going inmy head and I was like that's
true.
I was yeah, with faces for radioand kind of mediocre
personalities, it makes it veryhard to justify why going with
us.
But we are relationship-basedat the end of the day and we
want to give a candidate andclient experience the best
possible way, by beingtransparent and honest is how I
(34:54):
like to put it.
But also Owl's been on thedata-driven recruitment and
bringing these differentprocesses in which kind of makes
us a very unique and differentway of recruiting, and we'd love
to continue to show clients andcandidates how we work.
So, that's the quickest pitch onmy end.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I love it.
So if someone wanted to get intouch with you, what would the
best way for them to do?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
that be oh man.
Feel free to reach out toLinkedIn.
Email is albasseriathammercom.
Join our Hammer LinkedIn pageas well.
We have our website, hammehrcomYep.
Feel free to go through thecontact us section.
Reach out to us there.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Perfect, and I'll put these all in the notes as well,
but thank you so much for bothof you for coming out today.
It's been a blast.
Like I said, we probably couldhave talked for four more hours.
You're both a wealth ofknowledge in this area and I
just really appreciate the timethat you've given for world of
recruitment.
So thanks a bunch and have anawesome day.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Thank you so much, Keith, yeah cool.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Thanks for tuning in.
If you found value in thisepisode, make sure to subscribe
and leave us a review.
We've got a lot moreconversations coming up with a
whole lot of inspiring businessleaders who are redefining what
it means to succeed.
Until next time, I'm Keith andthis is Sell Me this podcast.
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