October 7, 2025 • 49 mins
In the first episode of Season 2 of the Sell Me This Podcast, host Keith Daser talks with Shawn Freeman. From starting and scaling organizations to navigating leadership challenges, Shawn shares what he’s learned from years of building teams and driving growth in a changing industry.
They discuss how the MSP model is evolving, what strong leadership looks like in today’s tech landscape, and how forward-thinking companies can adapt to new client expectations and technologies shaping the future of service delivery.
Whether you’re leading a growing business, mentoring others, or exploring what’s next for managed services, this episode offers grounded insights and a real-world perspective from someone who’s lived it.
Find Shawn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnfreeman-/
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If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships, connect with the team at:
https://www.deliverdigital.ca/?utm_source=videodescription&utm_id=youtube
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
This episode of the Sell Me This Podcast was filmed in the Social Launch Labs studio. SLL delivers top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the entire team for their dedication to crafting compelling content that engages, connects, and inspires.
Find the team at Social Launch Labs at:
www.sociallaunchlabs.com
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships – connect with the team at:
www.deliverdigital.ca
This episode of Sell Me This Podcast was expertly edited, filmed, and produced by Laila Hobbs and Bretten Roissl of Social Launch Labs, who deliver top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the entire team for their dedication to crafting compelling content that engages, connects, and inspires.
Find the team at Social Launch Labs at:
www.sociallaunchlabs.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Now let's focus on the better conversation around
how do we use all the technologyyou have now more effectively,
how do we empower your people, alot of times how do we train
your people to use it better,um, and just really set your
business up for success thatway.
SPEAKER_01 (00:21):
Welcome to season two of Sell Me This Podcast.
For our first episode of theyear, I am super excited to
welcome Sean Freeman.
Sean runs Always Beyond, whichis a managed service company
right here in town, but also hasa ton of experience that he
shares around leadership, aroundbuilding organizations, and
around the future of the managedservice industry.
We're super excited to sharethis story with you.
(00:42):
Have a listen.
We are so excited to kick offanother episode, um, and really
the first episode of the newseason of Sell Me This Podcast
with a really special guesttoday.
I'm excited to introduce you toSean.
Um Sean, we're gonna dive rightinto things, and why don't you
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about who you are and
where you came from?
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Awesome.
Thanks for having me on, Keith.
Uh, super excited to kick offthe new uh season with you.
Um yeah, Sean Freeman, I'm bornand raised in Calgary.
Uh, you know, there's a few ofus around still.
Um yeah, my history is in ITservices.
I I think uh I'll rewind it allthe way to maybe when I was 13.
Um my dad got me my first uhcomputer, 386, so not not not
(01:20):
too far back.
But uh I put it together myselfwith his help, and uh that
really sparked my interest andgot me really into tech and
computers, uh, found me found mesomething that I was passionate
about.
Um and from there I just builton that.
I my parents actually wentthrough divorce and and so I you
know got into the computers andreally leaned into that.
Um I was horrible in highschool.
(01:42):
I barely passed, did the minimumrequired uh which is which is
interesting.
You know, I gamed a lot and uhyou know got C minuses on
everything and even includingmath and and then I was like,
okay, what do I want to do withmy life once that was over?
And um and I decided to uh go toMount Royal College, but at the
time it wasn't a university yet,and so went into the computer
(02:05):
information systems course thereand uh that I could qualify, had
good enough grades.
Uh that you know they let arebel like me in.
And uh I really found uhsomething that I loved and and
like in school, like I neverreally loved school, but now
that I was focused on computerstuff and uh making things and
had some really amazing teachersthere.
(02:26):
Um I did really well.
And in my first semester, Ithink I got a 3.88 GPA, like
just blew it out of the water,and I was like, okay, I guess I
I'm good at something.
Uh and that was pretty cool.
It was a really good motivationbuilder for me.
Um and then I started to think,like, you know, I kind of want a
degree, like I don't just want adiploma, and went down that
path, talked to the counselors,and they said, Well, you could
(02:48):
do the university transfer, butyour math sucks because you
sucked in high school, right?
And I was like, Yeah, of course.
And so I had to go back at thatpoint, upgrade my math, my my
grade 12 math, and do that.
And it's really funny because Igot a 64 and I needed a 65.
Uh so I went back to the profand I was like, hey, you know, I
need a 65 to get into calc.
(03:10):
Um, you know, is there anythingthat maybe was great and maybe
you missed, or maybe, you know,like and he's like, okay, yeah,
yeah.
I found something there for theround.
Probably was a little bit meanon you there, and and so he made
the change and uh I didn't haveto do it again.
And so that's that's kind ofnice.
Um, you know, kept the momentumgoing.
Um and it was in 2007, and Iremember the year pretty vividly
(03:33):
that I'd gotten accepted intothe University of Calgary.
I was gonna transfer and startthe computer science program um
because in August, uh August15th of 2007, I was in a pretty
bad car accident.
Um it was in the afternoon, Iwas just driving along, mining
my own business, and uh a carthey were street racing in the
middle of the afternoon for somereason.
(03:53):
Uh lost control, came across themeridian and hit me head on.
Um I was in my grandma's 1984Volvo.
Um luckily it was a big tank.
Didn't have airbags, so I endedup with a broken jaw in two
places the front and the back,and and my cheekbone broke as
well.
Uh shattered my knee uh on thedash and I was in pretty rough
(04:15):
shape.
Um and that was interestingbecause people asked me, like,
you know, how do you feel aboutthat being so far away from it
now?
Um and and I I I was alwaysanswer the same.
My answer is like I wouldn't uhif I could pay money and have
that not have happened, Iwouldn't.
Uh it was probably a really goodthing for me.
(04:35):
Um, you know, gave me somethingto come back from, work hard,
did all the physio.
Uh I actually ran a marathonabout two and a half years
after.
Uh, and so put in a lot of workto do that.
It's funny, the the lawyers onthe other side of the case, they
were like, Here's some photosfrom Instagram of you running a
marathon.
I said, Yeah, I did that so Icould prove to myself I did
everything I could for physio.
(04:55):
And I straight up said that toher face, and that was the
reason.
Um, and then they had no morequestions.
Yeah.
That was it, you just shut themup at that point.
Yeah, like I was like, Do youwant me to be a victim and you
know, just pretend to milk thesystem or not?
And and so then uh that gotclosed out pretty quickly after.
But um, you know, that was apretty pivotable change in my
life, and and I remember I wentto the U of C and then a year
(05:18):
later I did uh I did a semesterin Australia, uh, which I
probably would have never done.
I thought I thought long andhard about it, and I was like,
you know what, life is short.
And it just instilled in me thisbelief that life is short,
right?
And even to this day, I'm like,if I'm ever like, ah, should I
spend the money and do thething?
No, do the thing, make thememory, right?
SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
Well, and I think you hear that story a lot for
people that have gone throughyou know some of those really
trying experiences where they'vehad some of that hardship,
they've had something they'vehad to overcome, where a the
perspective is completelydifferent, but also when they
look back to your point, itbecomes so formative in that
that hardship in who they aretoday, yeah, that that most of
(05:57):
them that you talk to wouldn'tchange it as much as it would in
the moment if you you know,probably if you caught you three
weeks afterwards while you'reyou know in physical or in the
hospital or something like that,you're like, you know, get me
out of here.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Yeah, drinking uh protein shakes for a straw
because uh my jaw was wiredshut.
SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Like in the moment, I'm sure it was one of the most
challenging things you've beenthrough, but you know, that
perspective probably reallyshapes who you are today.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
100%, yeah.
And and that's the thing too,all these experiences, you know,
I I've become a big believer ofeverything happens for a reason,
the good and the bad, right?
Um and so leaning into that andand just really knowing that,
uh, because as you're you knowbuilding a business, you're
gonna go through good and badand uh you're gonna have to
persist.
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
Yeah.
And so before we jump into yourbusiness journey, there's one
other thing you mentioned that Ifound really interesting that I
think is a little bit of acommon thread sometimes, and
it's not the um, you know, ifyou're kind of a crappy student
in school, you become asuccessful entrepreneur.
But I think that there seems tobe a common thread of people
that struggled in maybe a verytraditional education setting
(07:01):
and become successfulentrepreneurs.
Yeah.
Is there something to thatconnection that you can think
of?
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yeah, I think for for me it was just, you know,
really I I was smart enough toknow the things I didn't want to
do and weren't going to beuseful to me in the future.
Um, but I hadn't found thatthing I was passionate about
yet, right?
And I didn't didn't see how itcould make me money, or you
know, this is before the timewhen e games could make you lots
(07:28):
of millions of dollars, right?
Or I might have leaned into thatsome more.
Um, you know, when I went touniversity, I actually gave up
gaming because I was like, Iwon't, I won't do good if I keep
that in my life.
Um so so I chose to focus.
And and it's funny too, the theaccident actually probably
helped me in my school becauseuh, you know, I wasn't really
able to, I was I wasn't supermobile for probably six months.
(07:50):
Like I had mobility issues andyou know, had bones to heal and
all that sort of thing.
And so that helped me focus.
I actually took some of myhardest courses that first
semester, and I was, you know, Ihad nothing better to do, so I
went to all the the after hourshelp that the profs gave and um
one of them was math, and it wasuh it was a pretty challenging
math course, and I got an A pluson it.
(08:11):
Like it was it was discretemathematics.
And like I went from barelypassing calc, I think I got a C
minus in Calc, but I got it uhand it got into UFC to A plus in
a math course, which was prettyamazing, uh, and probably
because that focused.
SPEAKER_01 (08:25):
That's amazing, yeah.
Like I I definitely feel likethat's a big turnaround on the
math front, and I promise Iwon't ask you any uh
multiplication right now.
This is the calculus section ofthe podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting as Ilearned like why math is
important.
Um really I've summed it up tolike if you can understand logic
as a technology person, that'sreally where the value is.
SPEAKER_02 (08:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Um I don't need to understand how algorithms work.
Uh if I can work a logic tree,that's usually gets me most of
the way there and pretty prettyimportant for business, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
Yeah, and I think there is something to the
practical math side of thingswhere you know the ability to be
in a meeting and kind of do somerough numbers on the back of a
napkin.
But uh, you know, if you'restarting to do, you know, um
advanced prediction orregression models in your head,
I feel like we're we're having adifferent conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah, you need some definitelysome accounting skills for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
And and so then you've taken some of the, you
know, you've gone throughschool, you've gone through
really a life-changingexperience.
How did you get into buildingyour own business?
Was it just kind of theprogression out of school, or
kind of how did you findyourself in that?
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Yeah, there's a lot.
I'll dig into that a bit moretoo.
And and so as a summer student,I had gotten a job at an oil
company.
I was at a company called CCS atthe time, now Turbita, um, but
recently got acquired by SecureEnergy.
And so I was there for a fewyears as a summer student.
I had gone to Australia on thistrip doing a semester abroad,
and so that was amazing.
(09:52):
Um, and it's interesting.
Uh I knew I didn't have a joblined up to come back to because
CCS wasn't hiring at the time,and I was out for a run, uh, as
you do in beautiful Australia,and I was like, why don't I just
start up my own like littlecomputer repair company?
You know, there's the studentpainters out there, and I was
like, I'm just gonna callstudent geeks.
And so I went and bought thedomain, put up a silly little
(10:14):
website, uh, and in no time Igot like two calls.
And a couple people called meand said, Oh, yeah, we could use
some IT help.
And um, you know, this is whenSEO apparently was good, and I
didn't really do much, and I gotsome calls, and um out of that
idea grew uh a whole bunch.
And so uh lo and behold, Iactually got a job coming back
(10:35):
to Calgary because that wasn'tenough um income to keep me keep
me afloat.
And so I got a job in anothercompany that some people from
CCS went to.
Um, so I signed up for thatbefore I came back uh as a as an
IT helper.
Um we were it was me and my bossfor the IT department at that
company when I started.
Um and I kept student geeks onthe side.
(10:55):
I had a couple little littleclients that I was helping in my
free time, and um andinterestingly enough that kept
growing um and that that keptsnowballing uh sort of on the
side, a little side hustle,right?
Everybody, uh now it's the theme the big thing.
And so came back, worked thatjob, secure energy grew from a
hundred and so people to oversixteen hundred people in about
(11:18):
four years uh while I was there,and I learned a ton of what I I
took into my business and doingIT services for small medium
businesses.
And so, and over those four anda bit years, my student gigs
started to grow, and I I youknow I had six, ten clients, and
I was like, okay, I can't manageboth and feel good about it
(11:38):
anymore.
Uh, you know, obviously I wantedto maintain my reputation and
keep doing the job I was gettingpaid for.
And I said, okay, I gotta Igotta leave secure, and I was
like, I'm gonna take the jumpand make the leap.
Um, and that was in 2011, uh,you know, right before the 2012
uh downturn in oil and gas.
And so um luckily it worked outum because you know, I was
(11:59):
talking to myself, I was like,do I take the leap?
And I'm like, worst case I canget another another job, right?
Like the market's good.
Um, but then it wasn't.
And so um, but it was good forbeing an owner of a company uh
in the managed services worldbecause people were like, how do
we cut our costs?
How do we outsource a fewthings?
And IT was one of those expensesthat a lot of people looked at.
(12:22):
And so I was able to say, hey,you can outsource it to me, it's
a bit cheaper, you still geteverything you need, uh, and
it's flexible as you kind ofgrow back out of this.
Um and then I built a businessoff of that.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
And so one of one about being it's a 2012 year
you're building that, and thiswould have almost, if I'm kind
of looking back to, still beingvery much like IT is a cost
center, IT is uh yeah, everybodywants to pay hourly still.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Right.
Um and so so what I did isactually um I did two things
right at the beginning.
I I I said I'm not gonna charge50 bucks an hour.
Um I'm not gonna, you know, justprice myself really low just to
get work.
Um and I'm not gonna chargehourly.
I said, you know, there's gottabe a better way to make it more
predictable.
And so I would go in and I'dsay, okay, you've got this many
(13:07):
users, you've got this manycomputers, um, here's here's a a
one-monthly fixed fee, right?
And most people were like, oh,that sounds good.
And they're like, okay, so wedon't have to worry about our
bill changing every month.
And so I kind of like stumbledinto managed services um before
it was a thing and starting tobecome a thing.
Um and and that worked outreally well because it set me up
(13:28):
with a good foundation to hirefrom and and build a business
off of.
Um and that recurring revenue isobviously gold, right?
Uh helps you start, right?
Yeah, that's that's where westarted off.
Um, luckily, too, out of thatdownturn came a lot of people
got getting laid off and thenstarting their own businesses.
And a lot of those people that Ibuilt relationships with and
(13:50):
became friends with at placeslike Secure Energy started
companies.
Right.
They hired me because they'relike, Well, who knows IT?
Sean.
Like, we know he was great atsecure and he's gonna be great
with our business.
And so all those relationshipsturn into business for me.
That downturn probably boostedmy business more than I could
(14:11):
have ever with some sales andmarketing tactics, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Well, and that's one thing I've always admired about
you as well, is I I think thatyou put such an important focus
on that community.
Um, and so if you were to kindof be giving advice to someone
that was building their businessor even building their starting
their career, uh how importantis community um as you're
growing both kind ofprofessionally but also in terms
(14:35):
of just the your life?
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean it's it's amazing.
I look back now and it's justI've got friends that I've made
through business, I've madethrough just being out in the
community, helping people whenyou know I didn't need anything
from them, right?
If you give give to others,it'll come back, whether it's
from them or other people,right?
Uh the law of reciprocity,right?
Uh and so really focusing onthat, um, you know, the the best
(15:01):
time to plant a tree isyesterday, right?
And so and that's the thing too,like there's all these there's
all these sayings, um, you know,your your network is your net
worth, but how do you build anetwork?
You you build friends, right?
Um as I built up TWT Group,which student geeks got renamed
to because we figured we shouldprofessionalize it after I
(15:23):
graduated, um, you know, I builtI just built friendships and
they turned into customers.
And and and that's supervaluable, and and that's
translated into so much successover the last 15 years for me.
Um, and I've been able to help alot of people as well, right?
Uh and what goes around comesaround.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
Well, and and you know, I'm more on the front end
of the journey, but I think thatthe having that community around
you as well just makes it somuch more fun.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
Oh, yeah, like I think I get to work with people
that are great to work with andthey value what I do.
Uh I value what they do, I Isupport them, they support me.
Like, what's better than that,right?
Calgary is Calgary is thisunique city a little bit.
Um, everybody knows everyone,right?
Uh it's interesting.
I've I've gotten clients justbecause I was friends with them,
(16:12):
they're like, Yeah, our currentguys are fine, but like you're
my buddy, I'm gonna buy fromyou, right?
Um, and and honestly, like to bean MSP on the other side sucks,
but like sorry, like I can't,they're my friends.
I'm I'm just making friends.
And so that's the advice I tellany business owner, um,
especially if you're in B2B,right?
Just make more friends, and thenit turns into business.
(16:34):
Um and then you get to enjoy itbetter.
You're not just anothercommodity or another vendor.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think that you'respot on.
There's so many people that areso laser focused on the goal
that they they miss getting toknow the person.
Yeah.
And you know, one of my favoritequotes that I've I've heard
recently is in order to beinteresting, be interested.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Yeah, it's uh yeah, curiosity is amazing.
Um it's super valuable.
And and the other thing too is Ialways tell people, if you want
something, give it to somebodyelse.
Yeah right.
If I want more clients, how do Ihelp somebody else get more
clients?
Like, you know, like Keith,think about you.
If I want clients, I'll how do Iget Keith more customers?
(17:17):
And then you're just gonnayou're gonna have the same
thoughts.
You're like, how do I help Sean?
He's helping me so much.
Like that's just how humans are.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Well, and that's what I think, especially like,
and I think people are like thatfor sure, but Calgary
specifically, I think you're youhit the nail on the head, does
have a very specific feeling interms of how people want to see
everyone around them succeed andand want to see that whole
ecosystem propel.
And you have a uniqueperspective, like there's not
too many Calgary born andraised, you know, you are a
(17:45):
little bit of a unicorn.
Yeah.
Um has it always been like that?
Like I I'm I'm a you know, Iconsider myself a Calgarian, but
I've been here for 20 plus yearsnow, so I I feel like I can wear
the badge with honor.
Yeah, but but has it always beenlike that since since you were
remember?
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Yeah, it's as long as I remember, and and honestly,
in the business world, it evengets more because if you think
we're a city of 1.7 almost, 1.7million, um, you know, business
owners make up one, maybe twopercent of that.
Yeah right.
So it's a small amount of peopleat the end of the day.
Um, and that's but it's enoughto build a really good business,
(18:21):
it's enough to really help uhhelp other people's businesses,
but then also like pair somecommunity impact on top of
there, give back to thecommunity.
You know, it's a city thatreally rewards that, right?
Like caring about the community,caring about other people.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
Yeah, and I feel like there as much as there
sometimes is a scarcity mindset,I feel like maybe it's the oil,
the oil backing, or maybe it'sthe kind of entrepreneurial
backing of the city where Ithink people are less afraid to
to help someone in fear thatthey might be losing something
themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
So yeah.
And honestly, uh one of myfavorite quotes of 25 is like
the universe is not on a budget.
Right?
We we just get in these scarcitymindsets and it's totally
manufactured in our mind.
Um, you know, but again, if Iwant if I want something, how do
I help other people get it?
You know, it'll come to me,right?
(19:11):
It can't not.
The universe is gonna be like,oh, you're you're out there
helping other people, figuringout like we're gonna take care
of you, right?
And if everybody operated withthat mindset, like imagine the
where we would be as a society.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
We would just do incredible things, yeah.
And we are doing them, which iswe could do more, yeah, and
faster.
Exactly.
So do you feel like youdeveloped that mindset through
your career, or is thissomething that even if you look
back to um you know, startingyour first businesses and and
starting to, you know, kind ofthe the scrappy underdog.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Oh yeah, no, we were scrappy at TWT.
Yeah, um, people did not like tocompete with us.
Uh yeah, we had that reputation,and and honestly, um it's
interesting nowadays, likepeople still don't like to
compete with us because theyknow like if I have a
relationship, they're nevergonna win the business.
No, because I've had thatrelationship for a decade.
Yeah, right.
And and maybe they weren't evena client before, but now they
(20:05):
are because they're like, youknow, we just you know, you're
we're doing such amazing things,we're helping people out, they
want to be a part of that,right?
Like we've just built thisamazing, I don't know what to
call it, but but I think that'sI've learned that skill set over
my time, right?
Like, you know, when you'retrying to pay your bills and you
know, make the rent payment,like you've gotta you gotta find
(20:26):
the revenue one way or another.
And so um I would call themmistakes.
I've made mistakes where I'veyou know done something that you
know I'm I'm not proud of today,but I got the business.
Um, but you know, we all we alllearn.
We're all gonna we're all gonnafigure it out.
Uh I forgive myself and uh youknow and and now how do I get
back?
How do I help others, right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:45):
And and so tell me more about the TWT story then.
So you I feel like there's athere's a couple more chapters
in that book.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
For sure.
Yeah, we can we can dig intothat.
So started in 2011, uh, youknow, from from student geeks,
uh side hustle turned full-timejob, snowballed into a business.
Um you know, we we grew that uhup until January 2020 uh to
about a five million dollarcompany, 23 people, really
amazing team, um, like superamazing reputation in Calgary.
(21:16):
Uh and we were approached in2019 by a national company um
called Fully Managed, and Ireally looked up to them
actually.
We we had been kind of friendsand shared ideas, um, you know,
we had really good cultures.
And they came to me and said,Hey, would you would you think
about would you want to thinkabout joining us?
Um we're here's our plan.
We want to grow, we want to goacquire some other businesses,
(21:38):
take all the impact we're doing,and just scale it across Canada.
Uh, and that sounded reallycool.
And I and I thought that wasgonna be amazing for my team.
Um, you know, definitely lookingback, uh, there there was uh
some good and some bad.
Uh you know, um lots of goodcame out of it.
We we did really good things.
COVID hit in a month, two monthsafter we finished the
(22:00):
acquisition.
And so um, yeah, that that was apretty cool journey to to sell a
company um, you know, before Ithink it was 35 at the time, um
at 5 million, you know, theprice was right.
My team all got stock options atthe end of the day.
Uh, you know, the the vision ofwhat those would turn into was
(22:21):
pretty amazing, um, didn'ttotally come to fruition.
Um, but you you can't like youcan't get it all right.
You you do your best, you're uhyou're you're doing the right
thing with the information youknow at the time, right?
And that's just like a themethrough business.
You're you're just figuring itout as you go, right?
There's no playbook.
Um so we sold TWT uh and Istayed on through COVID.
(22:43):
I stayed on for almost threeyears.
Um, two years after FullyManaged acquired TWT group, um,
TELUS acquired Fully Managed asa whole.
And uh as a part of the initialdeal, I actually kept some
ownership in Fully Managed, andso I was that uh I believed the
the vision that much.
I kept some skin in the game,um, and then TELUS bought it.
Uh and about 11 months later Irealized I'm not a TELUS
(23:05):
employee, as you could imagine,and so um nothing against them,
but uh decided to leave and uhyou know had another year
non-compete, so I kind of waitedthat out and people were
knocking hard uh and saying,where do we go?
We don't like what's going onhere.
Um all those relationships cameback, and even the ones that had
already moved on are like, oh,we see you're back in business,
(23:27):
like we'd love to work with youagain.
We moved somewhere and they'reokay, but you were you were
always better.
Uh and so here we are in thoserelationships again, right?
Um, and so put the team togetheruh and started another company
called Always Beyond.
Um, so IT services company.
Also, alongside that, um, priorto launching that, I created uh
(23:49):
a coaching program for MSPs.
And so what I said is like, whatcould I have used five years ago
as an MSP owner?
Like, what would be useful?
And so I built this uh onlineplatform, a community uh
mastermind group, and I coachMSPs.
And I I coach other MSPs thatare competitors of mine in
Calgary, like geographiccompetitors, and they love it
(24:11):
because they're like learningall my secrets, um, which a lot
of them aren't tricky.
They're very they're verysimple, but some of them take
time.
Planting seeds, buildingrelationships, building
networks, um, you know, helpingothers before you ask them to
help you.
All those things, uh, and andthen obviously all the tactical
(24:32):
things that I learned um on thetechnical side of running an MSP
properly and and profitably, um,being able to help them scale.
Because you know, you're you'vebeen in the MSP game, there is a
variety of levels of quality ofMSP um because it's unregulated.
And so I was like, how do wejust raise the bar?
Um and if I can if I can raisethe bar for my competitors, it's
(24:55):
gonna make me better, right?
Against that that abundancemindset um is pretty amazing.
And honestly, there's so muchbusiness and market share, and
the market's growing in the MSPspace.
Like, even if I don't getanother customer, my business
should double, right?
Like that's the market isdoubling every five years at if
if not faster, right?
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Yeah, the the MSP market's a fascinating one, and
I I agree with you that there'ssuch a wide variety of MSP
types, delivery philosophies,everything from you know, two
people in a computer in theirmom's basement not to feed into
a stereotype, to to some of thelarge, large like
multinationals.
(25:35):
And you know, it's not aone-size-fits-all.
Like we do some work with kindof helping people find the right
fit for MSPs, and and I liken itto to dating, right?
It's it's not all about thetechnology, it's not all about
the processes.
Those things are important, andif they're not there, those
should be some giant red flags.
SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
But it's you know, who who are you gonna be friends
with?
Who are you going to um whensomething happens um and
something will happen?
SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
Whose advice are you gonna take because you trust
them?
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
Yeah.
Who who's gonna who do you wantin the trenches with you as you
make those business decisionsthat require technology?
And and I'm also uh you know,for better or for worse, a big
proponent.
How do you make it fun, right?
I I think that it doesn't haveto be this um median that you'd
read once a month or once a weekor once a quarter.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
100%.
Um, I mean honestly, like MSPs,you know, when you call in and
you have a problem, like we'rekind of part technician, but
we're also part likepsychologists, right?
Like we're walking people offthe the edge.
It's like it's okay, we're gonnasolve it, it's okay.
Um so people are in pretty youknow vulnerable emotional spots
when they call in, especially ifit's like a big issue or you
(26:42):
know, they had a fishing issueor they got hacked or something.
Like we become those rescuersand um it's a pretty a pretty
cool business that way.
I don't think there's noindustry that's like that,
right?
Um and so yeah, just reallyraising the bar of quality,
helping these folks like myselfthat accidentally ended up with
a business actually know how torun a business, right?
(27:05):
They know the tech, they'redoing great.
One or two person show can do,you know, run circles around a a
big MSP because they're moretechnically rounded and and they
just know what they're doing.
But do they know how to run abusiness properly so that
they're alive in a year, right?
Uh do they know what cash flowmeans, right?
Versus, you know, profit.
Uh they're totally different.
(27:25):
Uh and sometimes one will syncyou even though you look
profitable on the books, right?
And so really helping peoplefigure these things out, um,
plan ahead, create visions ofwhat their business could be,
right?
Because you know, they'rerunning a$500,000 or a million
dollar or million and a halfdollar company and they're
thinking about the next hundredK in revenue.
They're not thinking about wheredo I want to be in 10 years,
(27:46):
right?
Uh and if you don't do that,what I've learned over my time
is you just end up with what youend up with, and it's not
intentional.
So just uh yeah, really tryingto support other people.
Uh we've got people in mycoaching group across Canada,
across the US.
Um, and it's really cool.
A lot of the problems are thesame that people face.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Yeah.
And and so how are you coachingthese MSPs?
Like I because I know the exacttype you're talking about,
right?
They're they're brillianttechnically, and it sounds like
you followed in those footstepswhere you you grew up with the
technology in mind, not thebusiness in mind.
And and flipping that switch isway easier said than done.
Um what advice would you have tosomeone that's listening that
(28:27):
is, you know, we'll start on theMSP side.
They've built an MSP and they'reat that exact fulcrum where they
now, you know, they're they'retrue teetering on that revenue
number, they have a couple umteam members and they're
starting to have to learn to runa business versus um support
customers.
I know the answer could be joinyour mastermind.
Um, but but is there any uhthoughts you have?
SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
At the end of the day, your business is a mere
reflection of your leadershipabilities, right?
And so if you if you haveleadership abilities of a
million dollar MSP, then you'regonna be stuck there.
You know, I've I've talked topeople, they're they've been a
million dollars for five years,and we went from zero to five
and eight, right?
And so like and and I, you know,five million dollars is my my
(29:11):
mirror, right?
How and how do I get past that?
How do I grow past that?
So really realizing at the endof the day that you're
accountable for exactly whereyou are, uh, and it's and
technology is not gonna help youscale past a million, right?
Better a better stack, you know,um hiring another tech, a lot of
those things that you might needto do, sure, but that's not
(29:33):
gonna unlock the five million orthe ten million.
It's becoming a better leader,it's getting out of your own
way, um, you know, s some reallysignificant skills that people
have to learn.
Uh and if you don't learn it,you're just gonna be stuck is my
micromanaging, delegation,right?
Um the one mistake I see a lotof MSP owners make their first
(29:55):
hire is the tier one tech.
And I I I personally In mycoaching group, they're like, I
need to hire a tier one.
I'm like, okay, tell me how muchof what you do today you can
delegate to them within twomonths.
Onboard them, get themcomfortable, show them all your
systems.
How much of what you do todaycan you give to them?
They're like, Oh, maybe 20 or20, 30 percent.
(30:18):
I was like, so you're gonna freeup 20 or 30 percent of your
time, but that's not enough.
Like your first hire needs to besomebody you you can give 80% of
what you're doing.
Um, and if you can't do that,then you need somebody more
technically savvy.
Those early days that reallyhigh tech, you can just delegate
it to them and trust that it'llget done and you don't have to
(30:40):
babysit are super important.
And so just a couple smalltactical moves.
Um, you know, they they have ahard time swallowing the pill of
like, oh, I I'm gonna have topay 80 instead of 40.
Right?
It's like okay, well, but it'sgonna unlock so much more for
you, right?
You can go focus on only whatyou can do as as the owner of
the business, and that's thesales, the strategy, creating a
(31:02):
vision, your tenure vision, allthose things.
You can't hire a tech to helpyou with that stuff, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Yeah, and definitely unlocking that time because time
is the most uh valuablecommodity you have, and that
that leverage of what you can dowith that time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
In those early days, you gotta use a lot of that time
to learn those leadershipskills.
You gotta you gotta learn thestrategy, you know, find a
business coach.
Doesn't have to be me, like anybusiness coach can help you
figure out your mission, vision,and values, right?
Um you know, and so go findthose people, lean on them, you
know, go to your accountant, askthem your ask them every
question you can think of untilyou understand your books.
(31:38):
People under a million have noidea what their PL says or
means.
They don't even know what theircash flow is.
So figure that stuff out.
Because if you don't, if youdon't know how to run your
financials and you're at amillion dollars, you will never
get to five.
You cash flow will hold you backthe whole time.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah.
Well we'll loop it back to yourmath conversation at the
beginning.
Like I think that those are someof the skills, whether or not
you're an entrepreneur, theability to understand money, the
ability to understandfinancials, yeah, is a much
rarer skill than than Ianticipated.
Yeah.
Um, and there's not a lot ofpeople in the world that that
really understand how the moneyworks on that front.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
100%.
And if you don't have a CFO,your job as a CEO is to make
sure you have enough money inthe bank.
Uh that's number one job.
Don't run out of money.
And number two job is to makesure that your sales are strong,
right?
Like you know, if you don't havea salesperson, that's on you.
If you can do those two things,then you have a really good
foundation for scaling an MSP.
And being able to hire thosetechs that are, you know, the
(32:35):
right fit, the right technicalexpertise that you need.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
For for sure.
What about on the other side?
So we we talked about the MSPside of things um and how you
level up.
What if you're the customer ofof one of those MSPs where
you're working with them,they're they're awesome people,
but but they're strugglingturning that corner as well.
And you know, is there anyadvice you have for the people
(33:00):
that consume MSP services aroundkind of picking that right
partner?
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, good question.
I think you I think consumers ofMSP services, so other
businesses, um you know, theydon't have a lens into our
world, right?
They they get all thesebuzzwords and they get excited
and a you know, AI this,cybersecurity that, and they
come to the MSP and they'relike, what do we do?
And your MSP probably gives you,oh, here's a couple ideas.
(33:26):
Um, but they're you have torealize they're probably
figuring it out like you are,right?
Because things are moving sofast in the MSP space.
Um, and so I've been reallyfortunate that my clients have
given me the grace to learn andfigure it out and obviously be
ahead uh of them in most cases,um, but sometimes you just can't
be, right?
There's so much going on in theMSP space.
(33:47):
I think what businesses areslowly shifting towards now, and
like you alluded to earlier, isthat technology and IT services
are really drivers of businessoutcomes.
So if you can get really clearon what your business goals are,
and whether that's profit,growth, efficiency, um, and you
(34:08):
can bring that to your ITprovider, this is the
conversation a lot of companiesavoid because they're like, I
don't want to tell my IT guysthat here's our growth, you
know, here's our growth goalsand here's our efficiency goals
because you know it's just liketoo internal, too secret.
But if you don't tell them, thenhow how do you expect them to
help you with technology tosolve those problems?
Because nowadays the answer ismore and more becoming the
(34:31):
answers technology, right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:33):
100%.
And I I feel like there was thisgiant push over the last 10
years in the MSP world to reallystandardize everything.
So there was a ton of MA, um,there was a ton of best
practices, and there's there's auh you know a few voices that
have said, here's what an idealMSP looks like.
Yeah.
And and a lot of them havestarted to really mirror each
other in terms of those bestpractices.
(34:54):
Yeah.
I think to your point, wherethat starts to fall apart a
little bit and where companiesstart to hit some of that
friction too, is when you startto go outside of the standard to
some of their core applicationsor the things that make them
money as a business, um, there'sthis friction point when it's
out of scope.
Um how are you seeing that shiftin terms of service delivery
(35:16):
within your own business, butalso in the industry as a whole?
SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
Yeah, I think um all of that outcome work is becoming
projects and and really peopleare starting to think about is
like how can I spend anotherfive grand a month with my MSP
um to come in and do businessprocess optimization, look at a
problem we have and help usnavigate what technology makes
(35:39):
the most sense to solve that.
How can I spend five grand tobring them in every month, get
them involved in my business,um, and turn that five grand
into a huge ROI, right?
Because you could easily any MSPcan easily come in, you give
them five grand a month to focuson this stuff, um, they can save
you more than a full-timeequivalent of hours in a year.
(36:00):
And then after that year, it'sjust gravy.
So you're uh you're investingand you're seeing an immediate
return on results on that onthat investment, and then you
just compound that, right?
It's the you know, you constantimprovement.
And so that's the shift of MSPs.
All the operational stuff, thecybersecurity, the setting up
new users, all that stuff isjust operational.
(36:22):
And so we're seeing this split.
MSPs are like, yeah, we can dooperational IT all day, every
day in our sleep.
There's per user fee.
Um, off you go.
And then now let's focus on thebetter conversation around how
do we use all the technology youhave now more effectively?
How do we empower your people?
A lot of times, how do we trainyour people to use it better?
(36:44):
Um, and just really set yourbusiness up for success that
way, right?
SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
I I really like that analogy used of the ROI,
especially when it comes to someof the intangibles, like the
business process stuff, whereit's it's tough, you know.
I guess you can have a book oflike knowledge-based articles at
the end, but it's it's tough tosee in a traditional sense
sometimes how that turns thelever from an ROI standpoint,
right?
Like I think if you um in a verycrude example, if I go buy a
tractor, I can see how thatmakes me money.
(37:11):
Yeah.
Um what do you wish businessowners or business leaders knew
about some of the technology ROIthat's just a hard hill to climb
right now for them with just theway that business has been done
for the last X number of years?
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Yeah, I think two things.
I think business owners need toget more comfortable with
change.
They can't just be like, oh,these systems work, they're
fine, we'll just put put anotherbody in.
They just need to be like, okay,we're comfortable with change.
And then number two is the CEOand like the executive
leadership teams have to be thedrivers, right?
You can't just delegate your ITto your office manager and then
(37:48):
hope you get results and getROI.
It needs to come from the top,and it needs to be a part of
your business plan, right?
You need to be like, okay, um,Amazon's throwing robots
everywhere.
Uh we're not doing that.
Uh, and we have a warehouse.
Why are we not?
Okay, how do we dig into that?
Where do we start?
Your MSP might not be the personto sell you the robots, but they
can sure help you navigate whereto go, what to think about, the
(38:11):
things you might need to upgradeto be ready for it.
A lot of people have a ton oftechnology debt.
If you have a server in a closetin your office, you're probably
at least five years behindtechnology already.
You need to take that old ERPthat still relies on a server
and you need to upgrade ityesterday.
Um, you know, yeah, it's gonnacost you 100 grand.
You have to do it.
(38:31):
It's otherwise you you will getrun over by your competitor,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
So I'd love for you to paint that risk a little bit
more as well.
Because I I agree with you 100%.
There there's this hesitancy toact, um, but the we're not
slowing down.
No, uh, you know, the genie'snot going back in the bottle.
Um and the things that I loveare that AI, security,
technology are now becoming partof the, you know, I'm a popular
(38:58):
guy at barbecues now.
Um but at the same time, you youcan't go back.
And we're not going back, likewe're not going back to on-prem
servers, we're not going back tosome of these legacy technology
philosophies.
How do people start to make someof those shifts and we're really
what like what happens if theydon't?
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Yeah.
I think the the biggesthesitation I see from a business
leader in saying we don't wantto change our ERP or like our
core line of businessapplication, we're gonna keep
the one that's on a server,we're gonna just keep living
along, is they don't want tocause more work for their
people.
Right?
It's a sh it's the short term,it's that 12-month project
(39:36):
that's gonna be really painful.
Um, and but once you get pastit, uh the light on the other
side of that tunnel is awesomebecause now you can integrate
tools, you can streamlinethings, you can ask your people
what do you hate doing everyday, and you can figure out a
way to automate it, right?
You can make their jobs easier,you can have them focus on
higher value things.
(39:57):
Um because the the problem is ifif you don't rip that band-aid
off, uh you will have toeventually.
And then the other thing too isthat as a leader, you you need
to train your people that changeis okay.
Um, but you also need to setthem up for success and you have
to give them a bit of time andgive them the resources to do
(40:18):
these projects, right?
Say, okay, we're gonna bring inone or two people as consultants
to help out, we're gonna takethat off your plate so you can
focus on this project.
Um, you need to figure out thatplan and and make it work for
them.
Um at the end of the day, evenback to the MSP comment I made
before is like you're you'reultimately accountable as a
(40:39):
business owner for the successof your company, right?
And I don't see a future in 10years or even five years where
companies running a line ofbusiness app or a ERP on a
physical server are aroundanymore.
Like, like I think theirprofitability is gone, their
competitors are eating theirlunch because they're doing it
(40:59):
ten times more efficiently,because they have you know
better systems, betterprocesses, their people are
doing more valuable things.
Um and so you need as a businessowner to look at that.
Um, you know, and the otherproblem too is there's all these
folks that own a business thatare like teetering on retirement
or selling.
And so they're like, well, whatI'm not gonna do it because I'm
(41:20):
selling in three years.
Or and it's like, okay, well, ifI'm a buyer of a business, I'm
probably aware of that.
And uh either you're gonna takeadvantage of that and that's
gonna be factored into theprice.
Um, or or if you're ahead of it,maybe you get more money and
your team is set up for bettersuccess on the other side of
that.
SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
I agree.
We've started to see some ofthose discussions where it does
get factored into yourenterprise value of what is what
is the backbone of yourorganization and how have you
integrated technology todifferentiate.
SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
Yeah, we're I'm talking to clients that are
doing MA, and I'm like, youshould do a technology audit as
a part of your due diligence,which hasn't been a thing of the
past, but now it's like, oh, youhave some serious tech debt,
like all your computers are sixyears old, so we're gonna have
to come in and spend a half amillion bucks on computers.
Yeah.
Like that comes off the purchaseprice, right?
(42:10):
Um, and and not only like howyou do anything is how you do
everything.
So it just shows how thebusiness is run.
Because if you don't have, youknow, if the the welder doesn't
have a good welder, you know theproduct's not coming out well,
right?
Same on the IT side, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
Well, and I think that just especially as the
workforce starts to turn over aswell.
You know, I just uh you hearthese stories of someone walking
into their um you know Windows,and this is probably a little
bit dramatic, but their Windows95 desktop computer, you know,
the big like the old CRT monitorand just like just walking out
the door on there for me, thisis not for me.
(42:46):
Um because that's the you knowit's the way of the dodo on
those ones.
SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
I've had I've seen a I've seen a client give a a new
employee a five or six year oldcomputer and that person leave
two weeks later.
Yeah.
And our tech was like, hey,like, why'd you leave?
And they're like, they won'tgive me good tech, like all
their systems are like hard towork with, like I just can't do
it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
Well, and it becomes an expectation, right?
And like I've had thisconversation as well um with our
own team, which is you know, thethe output, um, especially for
some of these kind of digitalnatives.
Yeah, um, the people that havegrown up with this technology is
insane.
But if you also give them anabacus to do your books, um it's
not gonna last very long.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
But if you embrace that, you get the ROI out of it,
right?
Like, you know, people they theymake the argument to me that
like, oh, Macs are so much moreexpensive.
I'm like, yeah, but they'refaster, they never have issues,
so I'm always productive andthey last for five years at
least.
You know, people are using10-year-old Macs and they
haven't slowed down, right?
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
I'm I'm glad I have a fellow Mac brethren here
because um, you know, I feellike we're the only two MSP
people that use Mac computers.
SPEAKER_00 (43:53):
Every person in my MSP has a Mac.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
Oh my goodness, you're speaking my language.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
And and you know the reason is because they all know
PC.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:00):
And we're gonna have a client that's mostly PC, and
the one or two folks are gonnabe the CFO and the CEO with a
Mac.
And if that person calls in andyou're fumbling around like you
don't know what you're doing,who's getting a new MSP soon?
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
Well, and I I've heard that this is getting way
too specific with the story of,you know, um the the the support
ticket where they're like sayingclick well, just click the close
button on the on the rightcorner.
If you're on a Mac here on theuh you're a little lost there.
SPEAKER_00 (44:26):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
So we've gone um almost 45 minutes without really
diving into AI, and it'ssomething that I do want to
understand.
Um, you know, not I'm not gonnaask you to pull at your crystal
ball for what happens with theworld, but I am gonna ask you
with some of your predictionsaround what happens to the MSP
space.
SPEAKER_02 (44:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Because there's been a lot of conversations around
how that changes servicedelivery, how it changes the
client experience.
What's your prediction in termsof what people can expect from
their MSPs in the upcoming yearsbecause of AI?
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
Yeah, I think you'll see um MSPs differentiate
themselves by using automation,using AI tools, streamlining
things so that they can increasetheir gross margin and their
cost of goods delivered.
Um the thing about support is Ithink support as a whole is
going away.
Right?
If um if you have a clientthat's fully modern, fully
(45:16):
cloud-based, modern technology,good laptops, um, the ticket
amount should be very low, andany of the tickets that come in
should be at least a tier twolevel and probably soon a tier
three level, right?
Those those tier one problemsare gone, right?
They're just disappearing.
So support as an MSP offering isjust disappearing slowly, right?
(45:37):
So I think that's one predictionI have.
I think two is that AI, youknow, obviously there's all the
scare tactics and podcasts thatare, you know, in two years
we're gonna we're gonna all beon uh basic uh you know.
And and so, but I don't I don'tthink that's true.
I think these adoption curvesfor businesses specifically are
like a decade.
So I think the adoption curve ofAI is gonna be ten years.
(45:59):
There's gonna be the companieslike Amazon and Google and Meta
that are really way ahead, butall the small, medium businesses
and you know, folks that aredoing physical things,
manufacturing and trades, andlike those things are gonna take
a lot longer to to really adopttechnology.
Um but MSPs are leading that,right?
So MSPs have to be ahead of it,they have to do it internally,
(46:21):
and they have to build thatmuscle, and then they have to go
to their clients and say, here'show we can help you, here's what
we've done for our business.
You know, accounts receivable isall automated now, fully
automated.
We don't have a person.
Um, let's do that for you.
That's gonna save you a fullFTE, right?
And let's get that person doingmore valuable accounting work.
Right.
So I think that's the predictionover the next five years.
(46:42):
That's gonna be the big focus.
Um, and then there's gonna bethe MSPs that are like, uh, you
know, I don't want to do theeffort, I want to put the effort
in, and they're gonna you knowhang on to the physical servers
and keep telling people thatcloud's not secure, and uh we're
gonna leave those folks behind,right?
And you know, hopefully they'reclose to retirement.
SPEAKER_01 (46:59):
Fingers crossed.
So yeah, it's an interestingdiscussion, especially when you
think about the the revenue mixand even the margin mix around
kind of service versus some ofthe other elements of the
business.
Yeah, there definitely is gonnabe an evolution in the MSP
space, and you're spot on.
The ones that don't keep up umare really gonna have some
challenging years ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Yeah, and even software too, right?
You say you look at all thesevibe coding apps and you're
like, build me a CRM, and itbuilds you a decent CRM.
Right?
So I think there will also be ashift where MSPs can be like,
oh, you're paying X, you know,you're paying whatever for
HubSpa.
Like we could vibe code you onein about 15 minutes.
Right?
Let's sit down and we'll do itfor you.
SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
What 100%.
And then there becomes thesupport of those things
potentially, and the the circlecontinues.
But I think it was Satcha andAdela that said, you know, Sash
is dead.
Yes.
Um and and I think that you'reright, like the use case of I
can buy this specific platformfor thousands of dollars a
month, or I can build my ownfairly seamlessly.
SPEAKER_00 (48:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Especially they're giving youthe tools that are um you know
built on their el their learningmodels, right?
And it's like, when can I go toCopile and say build me my own
365?
SPEAKER_01 (48:11):
One day.
SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
I don't want to use Microsoft to host my email
anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (48:14):
I'll censor that part out so we don't get uh I
think this is going on YouTube.
SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
So perfect.
We love Google, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
There we go.
Um so I feel like you and Icould um continue this
conversation for another threeor four hours.
If someone wanted to get a holdof you to learn more about you,
learn more about either yourconsulting or always beyond, um,
what's the best way to get intouch with you, Sean?
SPEAKER_00 (48:37):
Yeah, find me on LinkedIn, uh just look up Sean
Freeman um or seanfreman.ca ismy website, and uh yeah, love to
connect.
SPEAKER_01 (48:44):
Amazing.
Well, it it has been an absolutepleasure to have you on.
Um, this has been a phenomenaldiscussion, and I thank you so
much for for taking the timetoday.
SPEAKER_00 (48:51):
Yeah, thanks for having me on and uh let me share
my story.
SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
Awesome, have a good one.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
That was an awesome discussion,and really grateful that Sean
joined us.
If you've made it this far, likeand subscribe on YouTube, or
follow and leave a review onyour favorite podcasting
platform so you don't miss anyfuture episodes.
Now let's focus on the better conversation around
how do we use all the technologyyou have now more effectively,
how do we empower your people, alot of times how do we train
your people to use it better,um, and just really set your
business up for success thatway.
SPEAKER_01 (00:21):
Welcome to season two of Sell Me This Podcast.
For our first episode of theyear, I am super excited to
welcome Sean Freeman.
Sean runs Always Beyond, whichis a managed service company
right here in town, but also hasa ton of experience that he
shares around leadership, aroundbuilding organizations, and
around the future of the managedservice industry.
We're super excited to sharethis story with you.
(00:42):
Have a listen.
We are so excited to kick offanother episode, um, and really
the first episode of the newseason of Sell Me This Podcast
with a really special guesttoday.
I'm excited to introduce you toSean.
Um Sean, we're gonna dive rightinto things, and why don't you
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about who you are and
where you came from?
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Awesome.
Thanks for having me on, Keith.
Uh, super excited to kick offthe new uh season with you.
Um yeah, Sean Freeman, I'm bornand raised in Calgary.
Uh, you know, there's a few ofus around still.
Um yeah, my history is in ITservices.
I I think uh I'll rewind it allthe way to maybe when I was 13.
Um my dad got me my first uhcomputer, 386, so not not not
(01:20):
too far back.
But uh I put it together myselfwith his help, and uh that
really sparked my interest andgot me really into tech and
computers, uh, found me found mesomething that I was passionate
about.
Um and from there I just builton that.
I my parents actually wentthrough divorce and and so I you
know got into the computers andreally leaned into that.
Um I was horrible in highschool.
(01:42):
I barely passed, did the minimumrequired uh which is which is
interesting.
You know, I gamed a lot and uhyou know got C minuses on
everything and even includingmath and and then I was like,
okay, what do I want to do withmy life once that was over?
And um and I decided to uh go toMount Royal College, but at the
time it wasn't a university yet,and so went into the computer
(02:05):
information systems course thereand uh that I could qualify, had
good enough grades.
Uh that you know they let arebel like me in.
And uh I really found uhsomething that I loved and and
like in school, like I neverreally loved school, but now
that I was focused on computerstuff and uh making things and
had some really amazing teachersthere.
(02:26):
Um I did really well.
And in my first semester, Ithink I got a 3.88 GPA, like
just blew it out of the water,and I was like, okay, I guess I
I'm good at something.
Uh and that was pretty cool.
It was a really good motivationbuilder for me.
Um and then I started to think,like, you know, I kind of want a
degree, like I don't just want adiploma, and went down that
path, talked to the counselors,and they said, Well, you could
(02:48):
do the university transfer, butyour math sucks because you
sucked in high school, right?
And I was like, Yeah, of course.
And so I had to go back at thatpoint, upgrade my math, my my
grade 12 math, and do that.
And it's really funny because Igot a 64 and I needed a 65.
Uh so I went back to the profand I was like, hey, you know, I
need a 65 to get into calc.
(03:10):
Um, you know, is there anythingthat maybe was great and maybe
you missed, or maybe, you know,like and he's like, okay, yeah,
yeah.
I found something there for theround.
Probably was a little bit meanon you there, and and so he made
the change and uh I didn't haveto do it again.
And so that's that's kind ofnice.
Um, you know, kept the momentumgoing.
Um and it was in 2007, and Iremember the year pretty vividly
(03:33):
that I'd gotten accepted intothe University of Calgary.
I was gonna transfer and startthe computer science program um
because in August, uh August15th of 2007, I was in a pretty
bad car accident.
Um it was in the afternoon, Iwas just driving along, mining
my own business, and uh a carthey were street racing in the
middle of the afternoon for somereason.
(03:53):
Uh lost control, came across themeridian and hit me head on.
Um I was in my grandma's 1984Volvo.
Um luckily it was a big tank.
Didn't have airbags, so I endedup with a broken jaw in two
places the front and the back,and and my cheekbone broke as
well.
Uh shattered my knee uh on thedash and I was in pretty rough
(04:15):
shape.
Um and that was interestingbecause people asked me, like,
you know, how do you feel aboutthat being so far away from it
now?
Um and and I I I was alwaysanswer the same.
My answer is like I wouldn't uhif I could pay money and have
that not have happened, Iwouldn't.
Uh it was probably a really goodthing for me.
(04:35):
Um, you know, gave me somethingto come back from, work hard,
did all the physio.
Uh I actually ran a marathonabout two and a half years
after.
Uh, and so put in a lot of workto do that.
It's funny, the the lawyers onthe other side of the case, they
were like, Here's some photosfrom Instagram of you running a
marathon.
I said, Yeah, I did that so Icould prove to myself I did
everything I could for physio.
(04:55):
And I straight up said that toher face, and that was the
reason.
Um, and then they had no morequestions.
Yeah.
That was it, you just shut themup at that point.
Yeah, like I was like, Do youwant me to be a victim and you
know, just pretend to milk thesystem or not?
And and so then uh that gotclosed out pretty quickly after.
But um, you know, that was apretty pivotable change in my
life, and and I remember I wentto the U of C and then a year
(05:18):
later I did uh I did a semesterin Australia, uh, which I
probably would have never done.
I thought I thought long andhard about it, and I was like,
you know what, life is short.
And it just instilled in me thisbelief that life is short,
right?
And even to this day, I'm like,if I'm ever like, ah, should I
spend the money and do thething?
No, do the thing, make thememory, right?
SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
Well, and I think you hear that story a lot for
people that have gone throughyou know some of those really
trying experiences where they'vehad some of that hardship,
they've had something they'vehad to overcome, where a the
perspective is completelydifferent, but also when they
look back to your point, itbecomes so formative in that
that hardship in who they aretoday, yeah, that that most of
(05:57):
them that you talk to wouldn'tchange it as much as it would in
the moment if you you know,probably if you caught you three
weeks afterwards while you'reyou know in physical or in the
hospital or something like that,you're like, you know, get me
out of here.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
Yeah, drinking uh protein shakes for a straw
because uh my jaw was wiredshut.
SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Like in the moment, I'm sure it was one of the most
challenging things you've beenthrough, but you know, that
perspective probably reallyshapes who you are today.
SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
100%, yeah.
And and that's the thing too,all these experiences, you know,
I I've become a big believer ofeverything happens for a reason,
the good and the bad, right?
Um and so leaning into that andand just really knowing that,
uh, because as you're you knowbuilding a business, you're
gonna go through good and badand uh you're gonna have to
persist.
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
Yeah.
And so before we jump into yourbusiness journey, there's one
other thing you mentioned that Ifound really interesting that I
think is a little bit of acommon thread sometimes, and
it's not the um, you know, ifyou're kind of a crappy student
in school, you become asuccessful entrepreneur.
But I think that there seems tobe a common thread of people
that struggled in maybe a verytraditional education setting
(07:01):
and become successfulentrepreneurs.
Yeah.
Is there something to thatconnection that you can think
of?
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Yeah, I think for for me it was just, you know,
really I I was smart enough toknow the things I didn't want to
do and weren't going to beuseful to me in the future.
Um, but I hadn't found thatthing I was passionate about
yet, right?
And I didn't didn't see how itcould make me money, or you
know, this is before the timewhen e games could make you lots
(07:28):
of millions of dollars, right?
Or I might have leaned into thatsome more.
Um, you know, when I went touniversity, I actually gave up
gaming because I was like, Iwon't, I won't do good if I keep
that in my life.
Um so so I chose to focus.
And and it's funny too, the theaccident actually probably
helped me in my school becauseuh, you know, I wasn't really
able to, I was I wasn't supermobile for probably six months.
(07:50):
Like I had mobility issues andyou know, had bones to heal and
all that sort of thing.
And so that helped me focus.
I actually took some of myhardest courses that first
semester, and I was, you know, Ihad nothing better to do, so I
went to all the the after hourshelp that the profs gave and um
one of them was math, and it wasuh it was a pretty challenging
math course, and I got an A pluson it.
(08:11):
Like it was it was discretemathematics.
And like I went from barelypassing calc, I think I got a C
minus in Calc, but I got it uhand it got into UFC to A plus in
a math course, which was prettyamazing, uh, and probably
because that focused.
SPEAKER_01 (08:25):
That's amazing, yeah.
Like I I definitely feel likethat's a big turnaround on the
math front, and I promise Iwon't ask you any uh
multiplication right now.
This is the calculus section ofthe podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting as Ilearned like why math is
important.
Um really I've summed it up tolike if you can understand logic
as a technology person, that'sreally where the value is.
SPEAKER_02 (08:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Um I don't need to understand how algorithms work.
Uh if I can work a logic tree,that's usually gets me most of
the way there and pretty prettyimportant for business, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:56):
Yeah, and I think there is something to the
practical math side of thingswhere you know the ability to be
in a meeting and kind of do somerough numbers on the back of a
napkin.
But uh, you know, if you'restarting to do, you know, um
advanced prediction orregression models in your head,
I feel like we're we're having adifferent conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah, you need some definitelysome accounting skills for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
And and so then you've taken some of the, you
know, you've gone throughschool, you've gone through
really a life-changingexperience.
How did you get into buildingyour own business?
Was it just kind of theprogression out of school, or
kind of how did you findyourself in that?
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Yeah, there's a lot.
I'll dig into that a bit moretoo.
And and so as a summer student,I had gotten a job at an oil
company.
I was at a company called CCS atthe time, now Turbita, um, but
recently got acquired by SecureEnergy.
And so I was there for a fewyears as a summer student.
I had gone to Australia on thistrip doing a semester abroad,
and so that was amazing.
(09:52):
Um, and it's interesting.
Uh I knew I didn't have a joblined up to come back to because
CCS wasn't hiring at the time,and I was out for a run, uh, as
you do in beautiful Australia,and I was like, why don't I just
start up my own like littlecomputer repair company?
You know, there's the studentpainters out there, and I was
like, I'm just gonna callstudent geeks.
And so I went and bought thedomain, put up a silly little
(10:14):
website, uh, and in no time Igot like two calls.
And a couple people called meand said, Oh, yeah, we could use
some IT help.
And um, you know, this is whenSEO apparently was good, and I
didn't really do much, and I gotsome calls, and um out of that
idea grew uh a whole bunch.
And so uh lo and behold, Iactually got a job coming back
(10:35):
to Calgary because that wasn'tenough um income to keep me keep
me afloat.
And so I got a job in anothercompany that some people from
CCS went to.
Um, so I signed up for thatbefore I came back uh as a as an
IT helper.
Um we were it was me and my bossfor the IT department at that
company when I started.
Um and I kept student geeks onthe side.
(10:55):
I had a couple little littleclients that I was helping in my
free time, and um andinterestingly enough that kept
growing um and that that keptsnowballing uh sort of on the
side, a little side hustle,right?
Everybody, uh now it's the theme the big thing.
And so came back, worked thatjob, secure energy grew from a
hundred and so people to oversixteen hundred people in about
(11:18):
four years uh while I was there,and I learned a ton of what I I
took into my business and doingIT services for small medium
businesses.
And so, and over those four anda bit years, my student gigs
started to grow, and I I youknow I had six, ten clients, and
I was like, okay, I can't manageboth and feel good about it
(11:38):
anymore.
Uh, you know, obviously I wantedto maintain my reputation and
keep doing the job I was gettingpaid for.
And I said, okay, I gotta Igotta leave secure, and I was
like, I'm gonna take the jumpand make the leap.
Um, and that was in 2011, uh,you know, right before the 2012
uh downturn in oil and gas.
And so um luckily it worked outum because you know, I was
(11:59):
talking to myself, I was like,do I take the leap?
And I'm like, worst case I canget another another job, right?
Like the market's good.
Um, but then it wasn't.
And so um, but it was good forbeing an owner of a company uh
in the managed services worldbecause people were like, how do
we cut our costs?
How do we outsource a fewthings?
And IT was one of those expensesthat a lot of people looked at.
(12:22):
And so I was able to say, hey,you can outsource it to me, it's
a bit cheaper, you still geteverything you need, uh, and
it's flexible as you kind ofgrow back out of this.
Um and then I built a businessoff of that.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
And so one of one about being it's a 2012 year
you're building that, and thiswould have almost, if I'm kind
of looking back to, still beingvery much like IT is a cost
center, IT is uh yeah, everybodywants to pay hourly still.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Right.
Um and so so what I did isactually um I did two things
right at the beginning.
I I I said I'm not gonna charge50 bucks an hour.
Um I'm not gonna, you know, justprice myself really low just to
get work.
Um and I'm not gonna chargehourly.
I said, you know, there's gottabe a better way to make it more
predictable.
And so I would go in and I'dsay, okay, you've got this many
(13:07):
users, you've got this manycomputers, um, here's here's a a
one-monthly fixed fee, right?
And most people were like, oh,that sounds good.
And they're like, okay, so wedon't have to worry about our
bill changing every month.
And so I kind of like stumbledinto managed services um before
it was a thing and starting tobecome a thing.
Um and and that worked outreally well because it set me up
(13:28):
with a good foundation to hirefrom and and build a business
off of.
Um and that recurring revenue isobviously gold, right?
Uh helps you start, right?
Yeah, that's that's where westarted off.
Um, luckily, too, out of thatdownturn came a lot of people
got getting laid off and thenstarting their own businesses.
And a lot of those people that Ibuilt relationships with and
(13:50):
became friends with at placeslike Secure Energy started
companies.
Right.
They hired me because they'relike, Well, who knows IT?
Sean.
Like, we know he was great atsecure and he's gonna be great
with our business.
And so all those relationshipsturn into business for me.
That downturn probably boostedmy business more than I could
(14:11):
have ever with some sales andmarketing tactics, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Well, and that's one thing I've always admired about
you as well, is I I think thatyou put such an important focus
on that community.
Um, and so if you were to kindof be giving advice to someone
that was building their businessor even building their starting
their career, uh how importantis community um as you're
growing both kind ofprofessionally but also in terms
(14:35):
of just the your life?
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yeah, I mean it's it's amazing.
I look back now and it's justI've got friends that I've made
through business, I've madethrough just being out in the
community, helping people whenyou know I didn't need anything
from them, right?
If you give give to others,it'll come back, whether it's
from them or other people,right?
Uh the law of reciprocity,right?
Uh and so really focusing onthat, um, you know, the the best
(15:01):
time to plant a tree isyesterday, right?
And so and that's the thing too,like there's all these there's
all these sayings, um, you know,your your network is your net
worth, but how do you build anetwork?
You you build friends, right?
Um as I built up TWT Group,which student geeks got renamed
to because we figured we shouldprofessionalize it after I
(15:23):
graduated, um, you know, I builtI just built friendships and
they turned into customers.
And and and that's supervaluable, and and that's
translated into so much successover the last 15 years for me.
Um, and I've been able to help alot of people as well, right?
Uh and what goes around comesaround.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
Well, and and you know, I'm more on the front end
of the journey, but I think thatthe having that community around
you as well just makes it somuch more fun.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
Oh, yeah, like I think I get to work with people
that are great to work with andthey value what I do.
Uh I value what they do, I Isupport them, they support me.
Like, what's better than that,right?
Calgary is Calgary is thisunique city a little bit.
Um, everybody knows everyone,right?
Uh it's interesting.
I've I've gotten clients justbecause I was friends with them,
(16:12):
they're like, Yeah, our currentguys are fine, but like you're
my buddy, I'm gonna buy fromyou, right?
Um, and and honestly, like to bean MSP on the other side sucks,
but like sorry, like I can't,they're my friends.
I'm I'm just making friends.
And so that's the advice I tellany business owner, um,
especially if you're in B2B,right?
Just make more friends, and thenit turns into business.
(16:34):
Um and then you get to enjoy itbetter.
You're not just anothercommodity or another vendor.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think that you'respot on.
There's so many people that areso laser focused on the goal
that they they miss getting toknow the person.
Yeah.
And you know, one of my favoritequotes that I've I've heard
recently is in order to beinteresting, be interested.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Yeah, it's uh yeah, curiosity is amazing.
Um it's super valuable.
And and the other thing too is Ialways tell people, if you want
something, give it to somebodyelse.
Yeah right.
If I want more clients, how do Ihelp somebody else get more
clients?
Like, you know, like Keith,think about you.
If I want clients, I'll how do Iget Keith more customers?
(17:17):
And then you're just gonnayou're gonna have the same
thoughts.
You're like, how do I help Sean?
He's helping me so much.
Like that's just how humans are.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Well, and that's what I think, especially like,
and I think people are like thatfor sure, but Calgary
specifically, I think you're youhit the nail on the head, does
have a very specific feeling interms of how people want to see
everyone around them succeed andand want to see that whole
ecosystem propel.
And you have a uniqueperspective, like there's not
too many Calgary born andraised, you know, you are a
(17:45):
little bit of a unicorn.
Yeah.
Um has it always been like that?
Like I I'm I'm a you know, Iconsider myself a Calgarian, but
I've been here for 20 plus yearsnow, so I I feel like I can wear
the badge with honor.
Yeah, but but has it always beenlike that since since you were
remember?
SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Yeah, it's as long as I remember, and and honestly,
in the business world, it evengets more because if you think
we're a city of 1.7 almost, 1.7million, um, you know, business
owners make up one, maybe twopercent of that.
Yeah right.
So it's a small amount of peopleat the end of the day.
Um, and that's but it's enoughto build a really good business,
(18:21):
it's enough to really help uhhelp other people's businesses,
but then also like pair somecommunity impact on top of
there, give back to thecommunity.
You know, it's a city thatreally rewards that, right?
Like caring about the community,caring about other people.
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
Yeah, and I feel like there as much as there
sometimes is a scarcity mindset,I feel like maybe it's the oil,
the oil backing, or maybe it'sthe kind of entrepreneurial
backing of the city where Ithink people are less afraid to
to help someone in fear thatthey might be losing something
themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
So yeah.
And honestly, uh one of myfavorite quotes of 25 is like
the universe is not on a budget.
Right?
We we just get in these scarcitymindsets and it's totally
manufactured in our mind.
Um, you know, but again, if Iwant if I want something, how do
I help other people get it?
You know, it'll come to me,right?
(19:11):
It can't not.
The universe is gonna be like,oh, you're you're out there
helping other people, figuringout like we're gonna take care
of you, right?
And if everybody operated withthat mindset, like imagine the
where we would be as a society.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
We would just do incredible things, yeah.
And we are doing them, which iswe could do more, yeah, and
faster.
Exactly.
So do you feel like youdeveloped that mindset through
your career, or is thissomething that even if you look
back to um you know, startingyour first businesses and and
starting to, you know, kind ofthe the scrappy underdog.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Oh yeah, no, we were scrappy at TWT.
Yeah, um, people did not like tocompete with us.
Uh yeah, we had that reputation,and and honestly, um it's
interesting nowadays, likepeople still don't like to
compete with us because theyknow like if I have a
relationship, they're nevergonna win the business.
No, because I've had thatrelationship for a decade.
Yeah, right.
And and maybe they weren't evena client before, but now they
(20:05):
are because they're like, youknow, we just you know, you're
we're doing such amazing things,we're helping people out, they
want to be a part of that,right?
Like we've just built thisamazing, I don't know what to
call it, but but I think that'sI've learned that skill set over
my time, right?
Like, you know, when you'retrying to pay your bills and you
know, make the rent payment,like you've gotta you gotta find
(20:26):
the revenue one way or another.
And so um I would call themmistakes.
I've made mistakes where I'veyou know done something that you
know I'm I'm not proud of today,but I got the business.
Um, but you know, we all we alllearn.
We're all gonna we're all gonnafigure it out.
Uh I forgive myself and uh youknow and and now how do I get
back?
How do I help others, right?
SPEAKER_01 (20:45):
And and so tell me more about the TWT story then.
So you I feel like there's athere's a couple more chapters
in that book.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
For sure.
Yeah, we can we can dig intothat.
So started in 2011, uh, youknow, from from student geeks,
uh side hustle turned full-timejob, snowballed into a business.
Um you know, we we grew that uhup until January 2020 uh to
about a five million dollarcompany, 23 people, really
amazing team, um, like superamazing reputation in Calgary.
(21:16):
Uh and we were approached in2019 by a national company um
called Fully Managed, and Ireally looked up to them
actually.
We we had been kind of friendsand shared ideas, um, you know,
we had really good cultures.
And they came to me and said,Hey, would you would you think
about would you want to thinkabout joining us?
Um we're here's our plan.
We want to grow, we want to goacquire some other businesses,
(21:38):
take all the impact we're doing,and just scale it across Canada.
Uh, and that sounded reallycool.
And I and I thought that wasgonna be amazing for my team.
Um, you know, definitely lookingback, uh, there there was uh
some good and some bad.
Uh you know, um lots of goodcame out of it.
We we did really good things.
COVID hit in a month, two monthsafter we finished the
(22:00):
acquisition.
And so um, yeah, that that was apretty cool journey to to sell a
company um, you know, before Ithink it was 35 at the time, um
at 5 million, you know, theprice was right.
My team all got stock options atthe end of the day.
Uh, you know, the the vision ofwhat those would turn into was
(22:21):
pretty amazing, um, didn'ttotally come to fruition.
Um, but you you can't like youcan't get it all right.
You you do your best, you're uhyou're you're doing the right
thing with the information youknow at the time, right?
And that's just like a themethrough business.
You're you're just figuring itout as you go, right?
There's no playbook.
Um so we sold TWT uh and Istayed on through COVID.
(22:43):
I stayed on for almost threeyears.
Um, two years after FullyManaged acquired TWT group, um,
TELUS acquired Fully Managed asa whole.
And uh as a part of the initialdeal, I actually kept some
ownership in Fully Managed, andso I was that uh I believed the
the vision that much.
I kept some skin in the game,um, and then TELUS bought it.
Uh and about 11 months later Irealized I'm not a TELUS
(23:05):
employee, as you could imagine,and so um nothing against them,
but uh decided to leave and uhyou know had another year
non-compete, so I kind of waitedthat out and people were
knocking hard uh and saying,where do we go?
We don't like what's going onhere.
Um all those relationships cameback, and even the ones that had
already moved on are like, oh,we see you're back in business,
(23:27):
like we'd love to work with youagain.
We moved somewhere and they'reokay, but you were you were
always better.
Uh and so here we are in thoserelationships again, right?
Um, and so put the team togetheruh and started another company
called Always Beyond.
Um, so IT services company.
Also, alongside that, um, priorto launching that, I created uh
(23:49):
a coaching program for MSPs.
And so what I said is like, whatcould I have used five years ago
as an MSP owner?
Like, what would be useful?
And so I built this uh onlineplatform, a community uh
mastermind group, and I coachMSPs.
And I I coach other MSPs thatare competitors of mine in
Calgary, like geographiccompetitors, and they love it
(24:11):
because they're like learningall my secrets, um, which a lot
of them aren't tricky.
They're very they're verysimple, but some of them take
time.
Planting seeds, buildingrelationships, building
networks, um, you know, helpingothers before you ask them to
help you.
All those things, uh, and andthen obviously all the tactical
(24:32):
things that I learned um on thetechnical side of running an MSP
properly and and profitably, um,being able to help them scale.
Because you know, you're you'vebeen in the MSP game, there is a
variety of levels of quality ofMSP um because it's unregulated.
And so I was like, how do wejust raise the bar?
Um and if I can if I can raisethe bar for my competitors, it's
(24:55):
gonna make me better, right?
Against that that abundancemindset um is pretty amazing.
And honestly, there's so muchbusiness and market share, and
the market's growing in the MSPspace.
Like, even if I don't getanother customer, my business
should double, right?
Like that's the market isdoubling every five years at if
if not faster, right?
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Yeah, the the MSP market's a fascinating one, and
I I agree with you that there'ssuch a wide variety of MSP
types, delivery philosophies,everything from you know, two
people in a computer in theirmom's basement not to feed into
a stereotype, to to some of thelarge, large like
multinationals.
(25:35):
And you know, it's not aone-size-fits-all.
Like we do some work with kindof helping people find the right
fit for MSPs, and and I liken itto to dating, right?
It's it's not all about thetechnology, it's not all about
the processes.
Those things are important, andif they're not there, those
should be some giant red flags.
SPEAKER_00 (25:51):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
But it's you know, who who are you gonna be friends
with?
Who are you going to um whensomething happens um and
something will happen?
SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
Whose advice are you gonna take because you trust
them?
SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
Yeah.
Who who's gonna who do you wantin the trenches with you as you
make those business decisionsthat require technology?
And and I'm also uh you know,for better or for worse, a big
proponent.
How do you make it fun, right?
I I think that it doesn't haveto be this um median that you'd
read once a month or once a weekor once a quarter.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
100%.
Um, I mean honestly, like MSPs,you know, when you call in and
you have a problem, like we'rekind of part technician, but
we're also part likepsychologists, right?
Like we're walking people offthe the edge.
It's like it's okay, we're gonnasolve it, it's okay.
Um so people are in pretty youknow vulnerable emotional spots
when they call in, especially ifit's like a big issue or you
(26:42):
know, they had a fishing issueor they got hacked or something.
Like we become those rescuersand um it's a pretty a pretty
cool business that way.
I don't think there's noindustry that's like that,
right?
Um and so yeah, just reallyraising the bar of quality,
helping these folks like myselfthat accidentally ended up with
a business actually know how torun a business, right?
(27:05):
They know the tech, they'redoing great.
One or two person show can do,you know, run circles around a a
big MSP because they're moretechnically rounded and and they
just know what they're doing.
But do they know how to run abusiness properly so that
they're alive in a year, right?
Uh do they know what cash flowmeans, right?
Versus, you know, profit.
Uh they're totally different.
(27:25):
Uh and sometimes one will syncyou even though you look
profitable on the books, right?
And so really helping peoplefigure these things out, um,
plan ahead, create visions ofwhat their business could be,
right?
Because you know, they'rerunning a$500,000 or a million
dollar or million and a halfdollar company and they're
thinking about the next hundredK in revenue.
They're not thinking about wheredo I want to be in 10 years,
(27:46):
right?
Uh and if you don't do that,what I've learned over my time
is you just end up with what youend up with, and it's not
intentional.
So just uh yeah, really tryingto support other people.
Uh we've got people in mycoaching group across Canada,
across the US.
Um, and it's really cool.
A lot of the problems are thesame that people face.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Yeah.
And and so how are you coachingthese MSPs?
Like I because I know the exacttype you're talking about,
right?
They're they're brillianttechnically, and it sounds like
you followed in those footstepswhere you you grew up with the
technology in mind, not thebusiness in mind.
And and flipping that switch isway easier said than done.
Um what advice would you have tosomeone that's listening that
(28:27):
is, you know, we'll start on theMSP side.
They've built an MSP and they'reat that exact fulcrum where they
now, you know, they're they'retrue teetering on that revenue
number, they have a couple umteam members and they're
starting to have to learn to runa business versus um support
customers.
I know the answer could be joinyour mastermind.
Um, but but is there any uhthoughts you have?
SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
At the end of the day, your business is a mere
reflection of your leadershipabilities, right?
And so if you if you haveleadership abilities of a
million dollar MSP, then you'regonna be stuck there.
You know, I've I've talked topeople, they're they've been a
million dollars for five years,and we went from zero to five
and eight, right?
And so like and and I, you know,five million dollars is my my
(29:11):
mirror, right?
How and how do I get past that?
How do I grow past that?
So really realizing at the endof the day that you're
accountable for exactly whereyou are, uh, and it's and
technology is not gonna help youscale past a million, right?
Better a better stack, you know,um hiring another tech, a lot of
those things that you might needto do, sure, but that's not
(29:33):
gonna unlock the five million orthe ten million.
It's becoming a better leader,it's getting out of your own
way, um, you know, s some reallysignificant skills that people
have to learn.
Uh and if you don't learn it,you're just gonna be stuck is my
micromanaging, delegation,right?
Um the one mistake I see a lotof MSP owners make their first
(29:55):
hire is the tier one tech.
And I I I personally In mycoaching group, they're like, I
need to hire a tier one.
I'm like, okay, tell me how muchof what you do today you can
delegate to them within twomonths.
Onboard them, get themcomfortable, show them all your
systems.
How much of what you do todaycan you give to them?
They're like, Oh, maybe 20 or20, 30 percent.
(30:18):
I was like, so you're gonna freeup 20 or 30 percent of your
time, but that's not enough.
Like your first hire needs to besomebody you you can give 80% of
what you're doing.
Um, and if you can't do that,then you need somebody more
technically savvy.
Those early days that reallyhigh tech, you can just delegate
it to them and trust that it'llget done and you don't have to
(30:40):
babysit are super important.
And so just a couple smalltactical moves.
Um, you know, they they have ahard time swallowing the pill of
like, oh, I I'm gonna have topay 80 instead of 40.
Right?
It's like okay, well, but it'sgonna unlock so much more for
you, right?
You can go focus on only whatyou can do as as the owner of
the business, and that's thesales, the strategy, creating a
(31:02):
vision, your tenure vision, allthose things.
You can't hire a tech to helpyou with that stuff, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Yeah, and definitely unlocking that time because time
is the most uh valuablecommodity you have, and that
that leverage of what you can dowith that time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
In those early days, you gotta use a lot of that time
to learn those leadershipskills.
You gotta you gotta learn thestrategy, you know, find a
business coach.
Doesn't have to be me, like anybusiness coach can help you
figure out your mission, vision,and values, right?
Um you know, and so go findthose people, lean on them, you
know, go to your accountant, askthem your ask them every
question you can think of untilyou understand your books.
(31:38):
People under a million have noidea what their PL says or
means.
They don't even know what theircash flow is.
So figure that stuff out.
Because if you don't, if youdon't know how to run your
financials and you're at amillion dollars, you will never
get to five.
You cash flow will hold you backthe whole time.
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah.
Well we'll loop it back to yourmath conversation at the
beginning.
Like I think that those are someof the skills, whether or not
you're an entrepreneur, theability to understand money, the
ability to understandfinancials, yeah, is a much
rarer skill than than Ianticipated.
Yeah.
Um, and there's not a lot ofpeople in the world that that
really understand how the moneyworks on that front.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
100%.
And if you don't have a CFO,your job as a CEO is to make
sure you have enough money inthe bank.
Uh that's number one job.
Don't run out of money.
And number two job is to makesure that your sales are strong,
right?
Like you know, if you don't havea salesperson, that's on you.
If you can do those two things,then you have a really good
foundation for scaling an MSP.
And being able to hire thosetechs that are, you know, the
(32:35):
right fit, the right technicalexpertise that you need.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
For for sure.
What about on the other side?
So we we talked about the MSPside of things um and how you
level up.
What if you're the customer ofof one of those MSPs where
you're working with them,they're they're awesome people,
but but they're strugglingturning that corner as well.
And you know, is there anyadvice you have for the people
(33:00):
that consume MSP services aroundkind of picking that right
partner?
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, good question.
I think you I think consumers ofMSP services, so other
businesses, um you know, theydon't have a lens into our
world, right?
They they get all thesebuzzwords and they get excited
and a you know, AI this,cybersecurity that, and they
come to the MSP and they'relike, what do we do?
And your MSP probably gives you,oh, here's a couple ideas.
(33:26):
Um, but they're you have torealize they're probably
figuring it out like you are,right?
Because things are moving sofast in the MSP space.
Um, and so I've been reallyfortunate that my clients have
given me the grace to learn andfigure it out and obviously be
ahead uh of them in most cases,um, but sometimes you just can't
be, right?
There's so much going on in theMSP space.
(33:47):
I think what businesses areslowly shifting towards now, and
like you alluded to earlier, isthat technology and IT services
are really drivers of businessoutcomes.
So if you can get really clearon what your business goals are,
and whether that's profit,growth, efficiency, um, and you
(34:08):
can bring that to your ITprovider, this is the
conversation a lot of companiesavoid because they're like, I
don't want to tell my IT guysthat here's our growth, you
know, here's our growth goalsand here's our efficiency goals
because you know it's just liketoo internal, too secret.
But if you don't tell them, thenhow how do you expect them to
help you with technology tosolve those problems?
Because nowadays the answer ismore and more becoming the
(34:31):
answers technology, right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:33):
100%.
And I I feel like there was thisgiant push over the last 10
years in the MSP world to reallystandardize everything.
So there was a ton of MA, um,there was a ton of best
practices, and there's there's auh you know a few voices that
have said, here's what an idealMSP looks like.
Yeah.
And and a lot of them havestarted to really mirror each
other in terms of those bestpractices.
(34:54):
Yeah.
I think to your point, wherethat starts to fall apart a
little bit and where companiesstart to hit some of that
friction too, is when you startto go outside of the standard to
some of their core applicationsor the things that make them
money as a business, um, there'sthis friction point when it's
out of scope.
Um how are you seeing that shiftin terms of service delivery
(35:16):
within your own business, butalso in the industry as a whole?
SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
Yeah, I think um all of that outcome work is becoming
projects and and really peopleare starting to think about is
like how can I spend anotherfive grand a month with my MSP
um to come in and do businessprocess optimization, look at a
problem we have and help usnavigate what technology makes
(35:39):
the most sense to solve that.
How can I spend five grand tobring them in every month, get
them involved in my business,um, and turn that five grand
into a huge ROI, right?
Because you could easily any MSPcan easily come in, you give
them five grand a month to focuson this stuff, um, they can save
you more than a full-timeequivalent of hours in a year.
(36:00):
And then after that year, it'sjust gravy.
So you're uh you're investingand you're seeing an immediate
return on results on that onthat investment, and then you
just compound that, right?
It's the you know, you constantimprovement.
And so that's the shift of MSPs.
All the operational stuff, thecybersecurity, the setting up
new users, all that stuff isjust operational.
(36:22):
And so we're seeing this split.
MSPs are like, yeah, we can dooperational IT all day, every
day in our sleep.
There's per user fee.
Um, off you go.
And then now let's focus on thebetter conversation around how
do we use all the technology youhave now more effectively?
How do we empower your people?
A lot of times, how do we trainyour people to use it better?
(36:44):
Um, and just really set yourbusiness up for success that
way, right?
SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
I I really like that analogy used of the ROI,
especially when it comes to someof the intangibles, like the
business process stuff, whereit's it's tough, you know.
I guess you can have a book oflike knowledge-based articles at
the end, but it's it's tough tosee in a traditional sense
sometimes how that turns thelever from an ROI standpoint,
right?
Like I think if you um in a verycrude example, if I go buy a
tractor, I can see how thatmakes me money.
(37:11):
Yeah.
Um what do you wish businessowners or business leaders knew
about some of the technology ROIthat's just a hard hill to climb
right now for them with just theway that business has been done
for the last X number of years?
SPEAKER_00 (37:25):
Yeah, I think two things.
I think business owners need toget more comfortable with
change.
They can't just be like, oh,these systems work, they're
fine, we'll just put put anotherbody in.
They just need to be like, okay,we're comfortable with change.
And then number two is the CEOand like the executive
leadership teams have to be thedrivers, right?
You can't just delegate your ITto your office manager and then
(37:48):
hope you get results and getROI.
It needs to come from the top,and it needs to be a part of
your business plan, right?
You need to be like, okay, um,Amazon's throwing robots
everywhere.
Uh we're not doing that.
Uh, and we have a warehouse.
Why are we not?
Okay, how do we dig into that?
Where do we start?
Your MSP might not be the personto sell you the robots, but they
can sure help you navigate whereto go, what to think about, the
(38:11):
things you might need to upgradeto be ready for it.
A lot of people have a ton oftechnology debt.
If you have a server in a closetin your office, you're probably
at least five years behindtechnology already.
You need to take that old ERPthat still relies on a server
and you need to upgrade ityesterday.
Um, you know, yeah, it's gonnacost you 100 grand.
You have to do it.
(38:31):
It's otherwise you you will getrun over by your competitor,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
So I'd love for you to paint that risk a little bit
more as well.
Because I I agree with you 100%.
There there's this hesitancy toact, um, but the we're not
slowing down.
No, uh, you know, the genie'snot going back in the bottle.
Um and the things that I loveare that AI, security,
technology are now becoming partof the, you know, I'm a popular
(38:58):
guy at barbecues now.
Um but at the same time, you youcan't go back.
And we're not going back, likewe're not going back to on-prem
servers, we're not going back tosome of these legacy technology
philosophies.
How do people start to make someof those shifts and we're really
what like what happens if theydon't?
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Yeah.
I think the the biggesthesitation I see from a business
leader in saying we don't wantto change our ERP or like our
core line of businessapplication, we're gonna keep
the one that's on a server,we're gonna just keep living
along, is they don't want tocause more work for their
people.
Right?
It's a sh it's the short term,it's that 12-month project
(39:36):
that's gonna be really painful.
Um, and but once you get pastit, uh the light on the other
side of that tunnel is awesomebecause now you can integrate
tools, you can streamlinethings, you can ask your people
what do you hate doing everyday, and you can figure out a
way to automate it, right?
You can make their jobs easier,you can have them focus on
higher value things.
(39:57):
Um because the the problem is ifif you don't rip that band-aid
off, uh you will have toeventually.
And then the other thing too isthat as a leader, you you need
to train your people that changeis okay.
Um, but you also need to setthem up for success and you have
to give them a bit of time andgive them the resources to do
(40:18):
these projects, right?
Say, okay, we're gonna bring inone or two people as consultants
to help out, we're gonna takethat off your plate so you can
focus on this project.
Um, you need to figure out thatplan and and make it work for
them.
Um at the end of the day, evenback to the MSP comment I made
before is like you're you'reultimately accountable as a
(40:39):
business owner for the successof your company, right?
And I don't see a future in 10years or even five years where
companies running a line ofbusiness app or a ERP on a
physical server are aroundanymore.
Like, like I think theirprofitability is gone, their
competitors are eating theirlunch because they're doing it
(40:59):
ten times more efficiently,because they have you know
better systems, betterprocesses, their people are
doing more valuable things.
Um and so you need as a businessowner to look at that.
Um, you know, and the otherproblem too is there's all these
folks that own a business thatare like teetering on retirement
or selling.
And so they're like, well, whatI'm not gonna do it because I'm
(41:20):
selling in three years.
Or and it's like, okay, well, ifI'm a buyer of a business, I'm
probably aware of that.
And uh either you're gonna takeadvantage of that and that's
gonna be factored into theprice.
Um, or or if you're ahead of it,maybe you get more money and
your team is set up for bettersuccess on the other side of
that.
SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
I agree.
We've started to see some ofthose discussions where it does
get factored into yourenterprise value of what is what
is the backbone of yourorganization and how have you
integrated technology todifferentiate.
SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
Yeah, we're I'm talking to clients that are
doing MA, and I'm like, youshould do a technology audit as
a part of your due diligence,which hasn't been a thing of the
past, but now it's like, oh, youhave some serious tech debt,
like all your computers are sixyears old, so we're gonna have
to come in and spend a half amillion bucks on computers.
Yeah.
Like that comes off the purchaseprice, right?
(42:10):
Um, and and not only like howyou do anything is how you do
everything.
So it just shows how thebusiness is run.
Because if you don't have, youknow, if the the welder doesn't
have a good welder, you know theproduct's not coming out well,
right?
Same on the IT side, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
Well, and I think that just especially as the
workforce starts to turn over aswell.
You know, I just uh you hearthese stories of someone walking
into their um you know Windows,and this is probably a little
bit dramatic, but their Windows95 desktop computer, you know,
the big like the old CRT monitorand just like just walking out
the door on there for me, thisis not for me.
(42:46):
Um because that's the you knowit's the way of the dodo on
those ones.
SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
I've had I've seen a I've seen a client give a a new
employee a five or six year oldcomputer and that person leave
two weeks later.
Yeah.
And our tech was like, hey,like, why'd you leave?
And they're like, they won'tgive me good tech, like all
their systems are like hard towork with, like I just can't do
it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
Well, and it becomes an expectation, right?
And like I've had thisconversation as well um with our
own team, which is you know, thethe output, um, especially for
some of these kind of digitalnatives.
Yeah, um, the people that havegrown up with this technology is
insane.
But if you also give them anabacus to do your books, um it's
not gonna last very long.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
But if you embrace that, you get the ROI out of it,
right?
Like, you know, people they theymake the argument to me that
like, oh, Macs are so much moreexpensive.
I'm like, yeah, but they'refaster, they never have issues,
so I'm always productive andthey last for five years at
least.
You know, people are using10-year-old Macs and they
haven't slowed down, right?
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
I'm I'm glad I have a fellow Mac brethren here
because um, you know, I feellike we're the only two MSP
people that use Mac computers.
SPEAKER_00 (43:53):
Every person in my MSP has a Mac.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
Oh my goodness, you're speaking my language.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
And and you know the reason is because they all know
PC.
SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:00):
And we're gonna have a client that's mostly PC, and
the one or two folks are gonnabe the CFO and the CEO with a
Mac.
And if that person calls in andyou're fumbling around like you
don't know what you're doing,who's getting a new MSP soon?
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
Well, and I I've heard that this is getting way
too specific with the story of,you know, um the the the support
ticket where they're like sayingclick well, just click the close
button on the on the rightcorner.
If you're on a Mac here on theuh you're a little lost there.
SPEAKER_00 (44:26):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
So we've gone um almost 45 minutes without really
diving into AI, and it'ssomething that I do want to
understand.
Um, you know, not I'm not gonnaask you to pull at your crystal
ball for what happens with theworld, but I am gonna ask you
with some of your predictionsaround what happens to the MSP
space.
SPEAKER_02 (44:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Because there's been a lot of conversations around
how that changes servicedelivery, how it changes the
client experience.
What's your prediction in termsof what people can expect from
their MSPs in the upcoming yearsbecause of AI?
SPEAKER_00 (44:55):
Yeah, I think you'll see um MSPs differentiate
themselves by using automation,using AI tools, streamlining
things so that they can increasetheir gross margin and their
cost of goods delivered.
Um the thing about support is Ithink support as a whole is
going away.
Right?
If um if you have a clientthat's fully modern, fully
(45:16):
cloud-based, modern technology,good laptops, um, the ticket
amount should be very low, andany of the tickets that come in
should be at least a tier twolevel and probably soon a tier
three level, right?
Those those tier one problemsare gone, right?
They're just disappearing.
So support as an MSP offering isjust disappearing slowly, right?
(45:37):
So I think that's one predictionI have.
I think two is that AI, youknow, obviously there's all the
scare tactics and podcasts thatare, you know, in two years
we're gonna we're gonna all beon uh basic uh you know.
And and so, but I don't I don'tthink that's true.
I think these adoption curvesfor businesses specifically are
like a decade.
So I think the adoption curve ofAI is gonna be ten years.
(45:59):
There's gonna be the companieslike Amazon and Google and Meta
that are really way ahead, butall the small, medium businesses
and you know, folks that aredoing physical things,
manufacturing and trades, andlike those things are gonna take
a lot longer to to really adopttechnology.
Um but MSPs are leading that,right?
So MSPs have to be ahead of it,they have to do it internally,
(46:21):
and they have to build thatmuscle, and then they have to go
to their clients and say, here'show we can help you, here's what
we've done for our business.
You know, accounts receivable isall automated now, fully
automated.
We don't have a person.
Um, let's do that for you.
That's gonna save you a fullFTE, right?
And let's get that person doingmore valuable accounting work.
Right.
So I think that's the predictionover the next five years.
(46:42):
That's gonna be the big focus.
Um, and then there's gonna bethe MSPs that are like, uh, you
know, I don't want to do theeffort, I want to put the effort
in, and they're gonna you knowhang on to the physical servers
and keep telling people thatcloud's not secure, and uh we're
gonna leave those folks behind,right?
And you know, hopefully they'reclose to retirement.
SPEAKER_01 (46:59):
Fingers crossed.
So yeah, it's an interestingdiscussion, especially when you
think about the the revenue mixand even the margin mix around
kind of service versus some ofthe other elements of the
business.
Yeah, there definitely is gonnabe an evolution in the MSP
space, and you're spot on.
The ones that don't keep up umare really gonna have some
challenging years ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Yeah, and even software too, right?
You say you look at all thesevibe coding apps and you're
like, build me a CRM, and itbuilds you a decent CRM.
Right?
So I think there will also be ashift where MSPs can be like,
oh, you're paying X, you know,you're paying whatever for
HubSpa.
Like we could vibe code you onein about 15 minutes.
Right?
Let's sit down and we'll do itfor you.
SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
What 100%.
And then there becomes thesupport of those things
potentially, and the the circlecontinues.
But I think it was Satcha andAdela that said, you know, Sash
is dead.
Yes.
Um and and I think that you'reright, like the use case of I
can buy this specific platformfor thousands of dollars a
month, or I can build my ownfairly seamlessly.
SPEAKER_00 (48:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Especially they're giving youthe tools that are um you know
built on their el their learningmodels, right?
And it's like, when can I go toCopile and say build me my own
365?
SPEAKER_01 (48:11):
One day.
SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
I don't want to use Microsoft to host my email
anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (48:14):
I'll censor that part out so we don't get uh I
think this is going on YouTube.
SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
So perfect.
We love Google, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
There we go.
Um so I feel like you and Icould um continue this
conversation for another threeor four hours.
If someone wanted to get a holdof you to learn more about you,
learn more about either yourconsulting or always beyond, um,
what's the best way to get intouch with you, Sean?
SPEAKER_00 (48:37):
Yeah, find me on LinkedIn, uh just look up Sean
Freeman um or seanfreman.ca ismy website, and uh yeah, love to
connect.
SPEAKER_01 (48:44):
Amazing.
Well, it it has been an absolutepleasure to have you on.
Um, this has been a phenomenaldiscussion, and I thank you so
much for for taking the timetoday.
SPEAKER_00 (48:51):
Yeah, thanks for having me on and uh let me share
my story.
SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
Awesome, have a good one.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
That was an awesome discussion,and really grateful that Sean
joined us.
If you've made it this far, likeand subscribe on YouTube, or
follow and leave a review onyour favorite podcasting
platform so you don't miss anyfuture episodes.
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