May 12, 2025 • 41 mins
On this episode of the Sell Me This Podcast, Keith Daser talks with Scott Coleman, Enterprise Account Executive at Arctic Wolf, a leader in cybersecurity operations. From the intensity of capital markets to the fast-moving world of tech sales, Scott’s path has been anything but typical, and it’s shaped how he builds trust, earns attention, and navigates complex deals.
They dive into the evolving landscape of modern cybersecurity and what executive leaders need to understand but often miss. Scott shares his take on cold outreach that actually lands, why empathy matters more than ever, and how likability, preparation, and consistency are the real differentiators in enterprise sales.
This conversation also unpacks how to stay relevant in noisy markets, the mindset shift required to succeed in high-stakes environments, and what it means to truly show up as a partner, not just a vendor. Whether you're selling, leading, or securing, this episode brings practical insight you won't want to miss.
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If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships, connect with the team at:
https://www.deliverdigital.ca/?utm_source=videodescription&utm_id=youtube
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
This episode of the Sell Me This Podcast was expertly edited, filmed, and produced by Laila Hobbs and Bretten Roissl of Social Launch Labs, who deliver top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the entire team for their dedication to crafting compelling content that engages, connects, and inspires.
Find the team at Social Launch Labs at:
www.sociallaunchlabs.com
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships – connect with the team at:
www.deliverdigital.ca
This episode of Sell Me This Podcast was expertly edited, filmed, and produced by Laila Hobbs and Bretten Roissl of Social Launch Labs, who deliver top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the entire team for their dedication to crafting compelling content that engages, connects, and inspires.
Find the team at Social Launch Labs at:
www.sociallaunchlabs.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome back to Sell Me this Podcast, where we
explore the people, products andideas that are changing the
game in business and technology.
Today's guest is Scott Coleman,enterprise Account Executive at
Arctic Wolf, a leader incybersecurity From capital
markets to tech sales.
Scott's journey is anything buttypical and today he opens up
(00:31):
about what it takes to succeedin a fast-evolving, high-stakes
industry.
We'll dive into the realitiesof modern cybersecurity, what
executive leaders need to knowbut often miss the art of
navigating cold outreach withempathy, and how likability,
trust and preparation separatethe pros from the rest.
If you're in sales tech or justwant to better understand how
companies are defending againstmodern threats, this is a must.
(00:55):
Listen, let's jump in.
Hey Scott, welcome to anotherepisode of Sell Me this Podcast.
We're so excited to have youhere today.
I'm going to dive right intothings.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself and the work
that you do?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, so yeah, thanks for having me, keith.
This is exciting.
This is actually the first timeI've done a podcast, oh my
goodness, so this is.
Maiden Voyage.
Yeah, so we're getting set upthe microphone.
All that I'm like.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
this is it's quite official.
What are the odds that you crytoday?
I'm like 10 out of 10.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Okay, cry for sure especially if you're with the
emotional stuff.
My goal is to start off withyour childhood and we'll go from
there.
Nice, perfect.
Yeah.
So scott coleman, I'm anenterprise account executive
with arctic wolf.
I like to tell everybody justenterprise by title.
We look after customers of allsizes, right all the way from
five users in environment to ahundred thousand.
Yeah, we look after, I lookafter southern alberta.
We used to look aftersaskatchewan as well.
Companies grown.
With growth comes new people,new things, right, so right.
(01:46):
So just responsible forSouthern Alberta at this point
and working on the team inCanada here.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
That's amazing.
So security obviously tip ofthe tongue for a lot of people.
How did you find yourself intothe security industry?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh man, Did you want the real story or do you want
like a cool story?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, hopefully the real story is cool.
It's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I spent a long time in capital markets and finance
before I came into the techsector actually just shy of 11
years so that was reallyinteresting.
It was a big transition andwhen I moved in it was by fluke.
I wasn't working for about sixmonths.
I ended up going to Dell forabout five years.
I feel like a lot of peoplestart their tech careers at Dell
.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I remember you, that's right.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I took on the acquisition public sector
business for Dell for Alberta,saskatchewan, manitoba.
That was a lot of fun, had agreat journey, we had a
tremendous business, a lot ofhappy customers, partners etc.
And it was just a greatopportunity to join Arctic Wolf,
my engineer at Arctic Wolf.
He had already gone to ArcticWolf after spending some time
with Cisco and some other thingsand he had reached out to our
(02:39):
VP for Canada and said hey,listen, when you guys want to
put another person in theprairies, we want to put someone
in Calgary.
We should really go after Scott.
And that's the short version.
A few conversations later andhere we are.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, Obviously, you've worked in a couple of
different tech companies.
What's different about ArcticWolf?
I know you're incrediblypassionate about the work that
you do, but what really standsout about the company, the
product the environment, and Ithink the company would love for
me to say culture.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Just every other company wants me to say culture,
and they do have a greatculture, an incredible team,
hardworking people.
Look, we're Arctic Wolf's, cometo market with a really
interesting solution, one that Ido believe is incredibly unique
.
It fits the broader Canadianmarket and our market here in
Calgary extremely well.
So overall it's a solution.
It's people, it's an incrediblesales organization.
(03:22):
There's not one thing thatreally makes it stand out, I
would argue, but a greatsolution, great outcomes for our
customers and our partners aswell.
Actually, the Channel First-ledorganization was extremely
attractive to me.
I've worked in organizationsbefore where there was multiple
routes to conductingtransactions and getting
business done and whatnot,wherewithal if we go in one
(03:43):
direction and that makes itreally easy for us to build
powerful relationships with ourpartners and alliances and
whatnot.
One path, so I love it fromthat regard.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, Amazing and obviously security is such a
rapidly evolving market.
Right now, the questions youhave to ask, the questions you
get asked, I imagine, changeevery day.
If I'm an executive buyer rightnow, like I feel like it's
really hard to see through thenoise.
How do you differentiate in theconversations you're having,
and not even specifically withArctic Wolf, but how should
(04:13):
these executives that areworking on some of these really
challenging security problemsapproach the market and how
should they identify what theyneed for their organizations?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I realize that's a giant question.
No, it is.
Let's try and piece it alltogether here.
I don't know that there's onesingle answer for that.
For sure, and I would argue, insecurity as well, there's
especially not one answer forthat because there's so many
directions you can go.
We're tracking, keith,something like 4,000 security
tools you can buy on the marketright now and more every day,
and from all over the world,different countries and whatnot
US, canada, israel, everywhere,russia, god you can do like
(04:44):
anything.
At this point, everyone's got atool For executives when they
are going to market, when theyare looking at stuff.
I think the biggest thing is tobe open-minded, right.
Ultimately, from our side, Ithink what we need to understand
is that we don't have to beeverything for everybody, both
in sales and solution.
It's okay for customers to notbe ready to talk to not just me,
but anyone at that time.
I know that there'sfrustrations from the security
(05:06):
side, notably because there's somany players coming to market.
They're aggressive with theirmarketing, they do a lot of
different things and I know thatcan drive executives, cisos,
ctos, cios, managers, directors,vps I know it can drive them
crazy and they do get a lot ofthat outreach, and I'm sure that
we're doing a lot of that aswell.
But reach, whether and I'm surethat we're doing a lot of that
as well, but it is it is tough,right, because you're trying to
find interesting ways todifferentiate yourself and from
(05:27):
our side this being my businesswe've really tried to focus on
presenting a bit of a bit moreof a story in all of this, both
in our outreach and intentionalmarketing, but like focusing
less on the capabilities,because and I think that this is
a little bit of a sales clicheDon't focus on the, don't focus
so much on the capabilities, theproduct, but rather the
outcomes.
(05:47):
But I'm trying to paint a bitof a picture and trying to do
that in a creative way.
And that is hard to do withcold outreach, but the
unfortunate reality of coldoutreach.
But it's a great thing formarketing, it's a real thing.
Numbers count, right.
If I send out a hundred coldoutreaches of whatever type of
campaign you do, if you get oneperson to talk to you, that's a
successful campaign.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And it's such an interesting balance as well, and
I know you and I have talkedabout this at length before, but
it's almost becomes a necessaryevil, right?
Because, theoretically, peopledon't want their inboxes blown
up, and I feel like thoseprivate spaces have shifted.
It used to be your email inboxand that became a little less
private.
It maybe became your LinkedIninbox and your cell phone and
(06:30):
whoever.
I remember a time when textingsomeone that you weren't best
friends with was taboo, and Ifeel like all of those different
avenues are starting to shiftand mold.
But, at the same point, it'sthe job of an organization to
grow their market share, to gettheir message out, and so how
are you finding that balance?
And how are you?
If you were an executive, howwould you find that balance
(06:52):
between needing to know what'sout and needing to say I'm doing
my due diligence as a leader ofan organization, but also not
having every crevice of yourdigital life being blown up For
sure?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So I think first of all, we're customers as well
Telecom companies, certainlyLinkedIn, recruiters, everything
we deal with the same type ofstuff that executives do.
So I understand frustration.
I understand not wanting tohear from the same organization.
Recently I just got a newvehicle.
Once these dealerships caughtwind of that that I was looking,
so I get it To separate throughthe noise.
(07:21):
I think that a customer needsto have a bit of an idea of what
they want, but they need to beopen-minded to understand that
sometimes you might not knowwhat you're missing, and I know
that's hard when you get 20, 30of those outreaches per day.
Do you want to go and do allthe due diligence around that?
Probably not.
There's a lot of professionalwalk around and learn that way,
(07:47):
and then if you take a lot, ifyou spend some time to do that
or have a team around you thatcan do that, I would argue that
most CISOs aren't taking a lotof cold calls at this point.
They're not the people or theCTOs or CIOs, c-levels, really
not taking those.
The teams that work amongsttheir, or the team members that
work amongst their teams, arethe ones that are going to
validate that technology, and sofor those guys, I think that
(08:07):
there has to be a lot of trustgiven out.
Sometimes I think that's missed.
That's a huge one that I findall the time is you have this
concept and it's the same thingof owning a business.
When you grip it, grip it.
It's like this is my baby andyou have a hard time
relinquishing some of thatcontrol.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, there's this inclination to hold on to
everything, and especially withsecurity as well, because
there's some things where therisk isn't quite as high,
correct and security does notfit that profile, and so I can
definitely see just the humannature to want to hold on to the
things that you have dear.
Yeah, be even more prevalentthere?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Definitely, yeah, exactly.
And I think that those C-suitemembers have a vision.
Yeah, and what is that vision?
Have they defined that?
And if they have great, thenthat team should be able to weed
through the different types ofthings that they are getting
from, the different types ofcold outreaches or the
conversations they have at theseevents and these conferences or
networking or whatever.
They're trusted advisors,they're partners.
I love that Again, I love thatour company is channel led
(08:58):
because we can work with trustedadvisors, with their customers.
It's a much better approachrather than the next US or
Israeli or whatever companycoming in to say we got great
stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Listen to us so you can layer on some of those
relationships with more trustedlocal relationships to be able
to deliver on that.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, and again, that is a hard thing to do and to do
it in a productive manner.
But I would argue as well thaton the folks on our side, when
we do get that opportunity totalk, be ready.
And when you do have thosecolder outreachers or those
different types of campaigns Iwon't say any of the direct
campaigns that we're doing oranything like that when you send
out like some sort of a swag totake a meeting or something
like that, make that creative asyou can.
(09:37):
But also, if you get thatopportunity, be prepared.
Be prepared, because there's alot of folks that take those
calls and they are not ready forthat.
God bless the 22 year old SDRworking extremely hard, no fear
of the phone or whatever.
They get the 25 year CTO on thephone.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Are they ready?
One I remember when I wasstarting off my sales career and
there was so much focus on getthe meeting, get the meeting,
get the meeting, and you'd seepeople that would get the
meeting.
And then they get to themeeting and have no clue what to
actually say Exactly.
And I'd say what is more, evenvaluable than some of those
personal spaces to a lot ofthese leaders is time, and the
(10:15):
35 or 40 minutes that you haveset aside for that meeting you
can't really get back in yourcalendar.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
For sure.
No, I agree, and both from theexecutive side, like you, need
to be very intentional with theinformation that you're sharing
right.
Obviously, we want tounderstand the stories and the
outcomes of the different typesof products that we're bringing
to market, and I understand that.
But we also have to get to thepoint very quickly with these,
with these folks that do havevery jam-packed schedules and
don't have a lot of time forthis stuff.
A lot of times, especially Ifind in a lot of our discussions
and transactions and whatnot,we spend very little time with
(10:47):
the C-suite.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Almost none.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
We are working with the different types of directors
and VPs and whatnot.
I don't want to call themsoldiers, because that's
sometimes how all of us in thetech industry here in Canada
we're just a bunch of footsoldiers supporting US tech
companies, or whatever.
Well, those guys and ladies thathave gone out and really spent
that time dug into a product ora service or something like that
and word of mouth counts, right, it is hard when you're first
(11:09):
getting started.
There's different ways to makenoise in the market.
When I first joined Arcticthree years ago, we were not a
household name in Calgary.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It took time, but we had a strategy for that and it's
panned out and it's going well,yeah, and I feel like your name
is synonymous with it as well,and I feel like that brand
growth has been really excitingto watch and see.
One thing that you challengedme with and like I've always
taken the stance and I that thenoise is becoming a little bit
unbearable and that it'sbecoming tougher and tougher for
(11:37):
executives to to identifywhat's new and what's cool
because of the noise, and Ireally appreciated the
perspective that you challengedme with, which was this is a
necessary evil in order tocontinue making the market move
forward.
I'd love to dive into that alittle bit, so would you mind
kind of unpacking that a littlebit?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
And, again, maybe a lot of those executives haven't
been in a sales position before,but I would also make the
argument absolutely that theC-suite guess what that's the
most important salesperson forany organization.
If it's a for-profitorganization, which let's keep
it for-profit.
In this case, if the CEO ispushing it, that's going to be
your best salesperson, or theCTO or CEO, like whatever
(12:15):
technology.
And so ultimately, yeah, whenthese types of outreaches are
coming I know that there's, andI see them on LinkedIn all the
time you have a CISO or somesort of a C-suite person come
out, it's just just do bettersalespeople, don't do it that
way and blah, blah, blah.
But I will go back to the pointI made before.
Keith, it's CISO.
You might feel that way and Itotally respect that.
I really do, and because I'm acustomer as well of a lot of
(12:39):
different services.
Successful campaign because ithas you talking and the reality
of it is that if someone'stalking, whether good or bad,
there is a discussion aroundthat product happening and then,
if enough of it goes around,eventually say yeah, that
might've been a campaign thatfrustrated you or whatever, but
they actually have a reallygreat service or really great
technology.
Maybe it's worth looking at itand it really is just generating
(13:00):
awareness.
And so, while there'sfrustrations, these campaigns
have, quite frankly, been verysuccessful.
And for those executives, Iguess my only message is always
to be patient.
Right, they were young in theircareers at one point as well.
Right, and I know this iseasier said than done, real,
much easier said than done,right, but be patient with these
folks.
They're not out there tofrustrate you, right?
They're not out there to causeproblems.
(13:21):
In Canada we do have CASEL law.
I know in the States that's adifferent thing, I don't know
how that all works, but inCanada we have castle law.
Finding creative ways toconnect with different types of
decision makers, different typesof folks that are a part of a
medic plan and having that typeof practice in place is very
important.
And, once again, sometimes theseguys don't know what they're
missing, and it's not just artto love, it could be anything.
(13:41):
You don't know what you'remissing.
When you get into that positionand I think this is I like to
tie in like a professionalathlete, for example, they get
paid millions of dollars, right,and sometimes signing a lot of
autographs can be frustrating,sometimes the extracurricular
part that comes around with themillions of dollars and the
attention, and that type ofthing can be hard.
Same can be said withcelebrities.
(14:03):
But you have a responsibility,right.
You have a responsibility togive back a little bit.
You have a responsibility togive that time right, to give
back a little bit.
You have responsibility to givethat time right Because, guess
what, most people don't getthere on their own.
They have a team and so,ultimately, when those folks are
getting those cold reach outsand those different types of
campaigns, don't take itnegatively, be flattered.
People like SDRs have time aswell, account executives have
(14:26):
time as well, and that's ourresource and we're taking the
time because we do believe thatwe have something to offer value
.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
If you don't see that , that's fine, we move on and I
really appreciate thatperspective as well, and I think
that one story that I've beentold is that no one wakes up in
the morning thinking they'regoing to do something malicious
to someone correct Especiallyand I'm sure there are lots of
people that actually do approachit that way, but're trying to
build their career.
They're trying to tell a story,they're trying to build
(14:52):
something, and I think thathumanity is also something
that's really important in a lotof these interactions, and I do
agree that berating some ofthese people or taking some
misplaced X, y and Z out on themisn't necessarily the right
place either, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
People have bad days, and I think there's one concept
, one word that I thinksometimes falls off the map
because so many people are soexcited to share this solution,
they forget about likability.
Yeah, likability is a majorfactor If you, if you want to
have a genuine conversation.
Both sides of the table knowwhy they're having this
conversation generally, and sowe can get past that very
quickly.
So let's try and make this asenjoyable as a process as
(15:28):
possible.
The technology is good.
That's why we're here.
It's going to take care ofitself.
How can we make this asenjoyable as possible?
How can I be someone that folksenjoy talking to or enjoy
working with?
Are there things that I'm doingthat they find valuable, that
give them the opportunity towant to give me more of their
time?
That's very hard to do from theinside in these campaigns, but
there are ways to do it.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah Well, there was a really interesting stat that I
believe it was Gartner thatcame out with, where they talked
about the idea that a lot ofthese purchase decisions were at
least up to a certain point, ormade even before engaging with
the sales team Absolutely.
And so a lot of that researchhas been done, and so the role
of sales then becomes how do Isherpa them through this process
and how do I make thatexperience as excellent as
possible?
Experience as excellent aspossible so that, as they're
(16:11):
going through that emotionalstate of kind of making those
decisions, et cetera, et cetera,that it can be a really
memorable and amazing one forthem and that's a and that's a
great lesson for salespeople ishow they ask that question,
because a lot of times theydon't.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
There's a lot of assumptions, and that ties back
to my last point about themreally wanting to share this
great whatever, but how they askthose questions.
Yeah, that is a hard thing andsometimes it's hard to get that
out of the other side.
With the campaigns, with ArcticWolf, I've always been very
clear with all of our prospectsand whatnot.
We're not here to kick downdoors and we won't do business
(16:40):
that way.
We will be patient.
Everyone has numbers and that'sall fine.
We'll find ways to do that, butwe're going to do it the right
way, and that is ensuring thatwe remain likable, whether they
buy it or not.
Whether they buy Arctic Wolf orwhatever we're selling at that
time.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
We want the community , we want our partners to know
that they enjoy working with us,and you know this as well as I
do, that Calgary is a smallcommunity as well, and that what
is worse than losing somethingis leaving someone with a bad
taste in their mouth and burningthat bridge completely, and I
think the word gets around realquick, and I also think that
it's a it's just important to dothe right things in those
(17:12):
scenarios?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Definitely yeah, the right things and the intentional
things.
So far too often in our world,in the tech world I know you
know this from your previouslife we're faced with very tough
decisions where we know thatthere's an easier path, but it's
the wrong one.
In fact, we run into thatalmost every day, keith.
So keeping that integrity isragingly important by way of
your partners, by way of youralliance partners, your
(17:33):
customers, everybody that'sinvolved in the process, and I
agree, I completely agree withyour sentiment on that, because
we run into that far more oftenthan I like to admit, and so to
build on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
When you're dealing with some of these executives
that are in the spot where theymight be making the wrong choice
, of these executives that arein the spot where they might be
making the wrong choice, are yousaying that it's because you
see a path for them that theydon't see, or is it because
there is a sales quota attachedto something and you just have
to do the right thing where youknow it's not the right fit for
that customer Got it?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah.
So, first and foremost, youcan't call anyone's baby ugly no
matter how much you'd like tobecause you might think it might
not be the right thing.
They certainly do and they havetheir reasons for that.
There's an old.
There's an old story I'm tryingto remember the name of it, but
ultimately premise of it wasthere was a store called New
York downtown style sellingreally expensive coats, right To
(18:23):
fur coats, and the very wealthywoman came in, bought the fur
coat, brought it back the nextday it spilled something all
over.
It was clearly her fault, butcame in and threw a big fit.
Sometimes it's better to jumpin that boat with a customer
right and say, yeah, this isn'tgreat, I'm with you, this sucks.
And so maybe there's the sideof it where you look at their
solution and say, okay, yeah,you like it.
(18:46):
Maybe I can try and wrap myhead.
The tech sector no one loves totalk about their solutions more
than the people that put them in.
So give the opportunity toshare that story, get into that
boat with them and, if it'snegative, get in that boat as
well.
You can't be afraid to havehard conversations because, as
we know, in the tech sectorsometimes it's not how great
your solution is.
A lot of times it's how greatyou are at fixing it when
(19:06):
something breaks, and so get inthat boat with them, understand
and then ultimately produce theopportunity to drive value at a
later time.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I love it and I completely agree that empathy, I
feel like, is lost a lot andeveryone's so excited and I
share this with the most amountof respect to share their pitch
deck or to share their here'sthe brochure or whatever that I
have where they forget that.
A really important step, whichis how can I be more curious,
how can I understand whereyou're coming from and how can I
really sit in your boat?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, exactly, and it is.
Digging in is sometimes a hardthing to do.
You want to keep your values.
The challenging thing aboutbeing a salesperson is you do
have to be a chameleon.
You got to be every color inevery room and I totally
understand that.
But you have to maintainintegrity but also have respect
for the other side of the roomand the way we go to market.
(19:55):
I will never call anyone's babyugly.
Regardless of what the solutionis and I'm sure that there's
lots of solutions out there thatwould love to say that we can
do everything they can.
We'll do it for less orwhatever.
It doesn't matter what thecompany is.
That's totally out there.
I think that turns buyers off,keith.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I would agree with you, and I also can't stop
laughing at the you turn intoyour baby.
No one will call someone's babyugly.
I feel like that one's going tostick with me.
That's the thing I'm going toremember now is that saying
let's face it, I've seen lots ofpeople that they love their
baby so much.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I'm just like damn, oh great, looking kid, the
cutest baby in the world.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
No, I brought us off track here a little bit.
So you, as you've grown theArctic Wolf presence here in
Calgary, you've had really aprivilege to talk to a lot of
the different influentialbusiness leaders, tech leaders
in the city.
There's some relationships thatI'm sure stand out more than
others to you.
What are some of the thingswhen you think about from a
technology leader perspective,and whether it's the attention
(20:44):
they give you or the respect Iknow you've mentioned respect a
few times what are some of thethings that you wish you could
coach leaders around, around howto make the most out of some of
those technology relationshipsand those partnerships.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah.
So the first and foremost isenable your team yeah, Quite
frankly, enable your team.
Those technology leaders don'tneed to be in every meeting, and
so if they're giving their teamthe ability to actually as
Steve Jobs always said, youdon't hire smart people to tell
them what to do right.
Great leaders that I've seen inthe tech sector have really
empowered the people around themto get in, get the information
and make informed decisionsright.
(21:16):
So that concept of squeezingand letting go a little bit, I
think, is what makes incredibleleaders.
But then also, when we're atthe table with those leaders,
the ability to listen,understand, ask intelligent
questions.
Sometimes we run intosituations where they just don't
want to hear it.
They're like, but then I justchallenges them why are you here
?
Why are you here?
And a great leader can alwaysemulate why we're in this
(21:38):
meeting.
And let's get to the pointquickly, but be receptive to the
process.
So when folks are receptive tothe process, I think that they
get a lot more from it.
I've never left a room, Not oncehave we left a room in a
conversation.
In the three years and probably1500 pitches we've done, we
have never left a room where Ifelt that the customer didn't
get some value from theconversation, whether they buy
or not and being receptive tothose stories.
(21:58):
If you're going to take thetime, be present, but I think
salespeople can learn that aswell.
Quite frankly, don't be on yourphone my phone's gone up 10
times in my pocket no but bereceptive and listen to the
story and understand and be opento the topic.
But I do really think that theability to relinquish some of
that control and give your teamthe ability to take in the
learnings come to you this youdo need to look at this and
(22:20):
here's why and give them thattime is just so powerful.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
So powerful, and I think that's one thing you said
that stood out to me at the verybeginning, which was it's a lot
of the teams that you'reworking with and there's in
sales, a lot of the coaching,the training, the.
You see when some of theleadership sometimes is, hey,
I'll get to the C level, get tothe C level, and a lot of that
work is done in the trenches.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And it's done with the teams that are on the front
lines doing some of this defense.
We're doing some of thisreactive work on the security
side of things.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And I respect that, like I do respect that get to
the ultimate decision maker asfast as possible, like this old
sales ad.
I don't know From our side.
I think that there's a.
You have to identify a processthat works for the team that
you're working with and make ita meticulous process that you
can follow over and over againand be able to transfer that
knowledge.
There's nothing worse than aprocess that only one person can
(23:09):
do.
If it's not repeatable, it'snot a good process.
So put that in place, follow it, go down the different paths,
make sure that you're there.
I think that's pretty powerfulstuff when you do it that way.
And for an organization to say,get to that buyer's who's
possible.
If you follow the process,you're probably going to get
there.
There's all kinds of frameworks.
You can follow them, the medpicks and all that stuff, and
that's all very importantbecause I think it is valuable
(23:31):
to be very intentional in yourprocess.
But figure out what's good foryou, but make it repeatable.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, there is no shortage of sales.
Acronyms God.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I try so hard not to use, and in cybersecurity it's
even worse.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, I feel like the only thing worse than sales for
acronyms might be cybersecurity100%.
You need like a thesaurus ofacronyms to just make it through
the day.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
But and sales as well .
Sales is challenging because Idon't think anyone in my role
and when you were doing in thepast, nobody wants to be thought
of as a salesman.
But here's the thing it's anart man, it's an art and it's an
excruciating amount of work.
There's been times where, youknow, or when my wife was on
during mat leave or somethinglike that, and she was home when
(24:10):
I was working from home.
Maybe she thought at one pointshe could come down and have a
conversation in the office.
I'm on the phone all day, man.
Yeah, by the end of the day, Idon't want to talk to anybody
anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, totally good.
And I think that people see thelunch, the beer, the networking
events and then the golf, yeahand game.
But there is a lot more thatgoes into it For the people that
do it.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
They heard a quote when I was early on in my career
that sales can either be one ofthe easiest low-paying jobs
ever or one of the hardesthigh-paying jobs 100%.
And you're absolutely right.
Folks do see the networkingaspects and stuff like that, but
even that stuff gets veryexhausting.
I have two kids.
Man, I'm not as much as I lovehaving an espresso martini on a
Tuesday night at 10 pm.
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
But those opportunities also do present
themselves and I think that youdo have to be present, but pick
and choose your places, andthat's where I think one of the
things that I love about myprevious sales career as well
and I say previous with a littlebit of an asterisk, because I
feel like you're always sellingright and, whether or not you're
in sales or not, like there'salways a sales element, but you
get to develop these amazingrelationships and the
opportunity to sit across fromsomeone and have that espresso
(25:13):
martini at 10 PM.
There are friendships that I'vemade and, like you don't get
the opportunity to meet thatmany amazing people in many
other professions like that Iagree, and you know what that's.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
a?
The privilege is a perfect wordfor it and, even tying back to
our conversation of notfrustrating executives, it is a
privilege to get their time andI think that sometimes is lost
and we have to treat it.
Excuse me, we do have to treatit with the utmost respect
because, yeah, it's an absoluteprivilege to talk about your
product, your service, yourwhatever with anyone that will
listen.
So don't blow it.
(25:45):
Have a plan, prepare.
Everything's a negotiation,right?
How are you going to negotiatethis conversation right?
Every interaction we have inlife is a negotiation.
For Pete's sake, Be prepared.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
I know I like the theme of preparation, I like the
theme of respect.
Are there some things that whenyou look at I don't want to
call them deals, but if youthink about, like interactions
that you've worked on that havegone sideways or you wish they'd
gone different once again, fromthe perspective of some of
those leaders, are there somered flags that you look out for
that you just wish technicalleaders would approach certain
elements differently.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I would say one thing that I do believe that every
leader should do and I thinkit's unfair when they don't is
when it doesn't go your way,give us that debrief, give us
that opportunity to learn.
If it's something simple, tellme that they were cheaper.
Okay.
If that's all it is, thenthat's fine.
(26:37):
We go through salespeople,engineers, different types of
people we involve in the process.
Sometimes we work onopportunities with organizations
or engagements for up to a year, maybe more, two, three, four,
and when that decision finallycomes, and if it doesn't go your
way, give us the respect That'dbe.
My biggest ask of any executiveanywhere is to give us that
opportunity to learn, because wewant to understand how we can
be better.
We've spent time and resources.
It might not have gone our wayand, for the record, a good
(26:57):
salesperson and a good team willabsolutely respect the decision
you made.
Far too often we see it go theother way, where there's some
anger there over a big process.
But I've been on both sides ofit.
We're not going to win everysingle thing and that's okay.
So have have respect for thedecision that's been made.
Be be very complimentary of thedecision that they made From
the other side.
Time's been spent, so help usunderstand.
(27:19):
Give us that debrief.
I don't need two hours.
Give me 30 minutes.
Give me 15, so we canunderstand.
Security is hard, though,because you go through all these
different types of things theMNDAs, the, the.
You go through all thesedifferent types of things the
MNDAs, the compliance, thedifferent types of checklists
you have to go through, andwhatnot.
So sometimes folks are a littlebit hesitant to share with you
the decisions that they made andwhy, but ultimately, I would
challenge please give us thatopportunity.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And what's the joke?
You're almost like left on reador something like that, where
you're dating for a year andthen all of a sudden, someone
disappears.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And that's the other thing.
When you're in an engagement,speaking with customers,
sometimes things go quiet.
They call it going cold, right?
Hey, look, organizations andexecutives and directors and
infrastructure analysts andsystem admins and all these guys
they are busy people.
Something could blow up.
There could be a project theyhave to work on, there could be
a big change of some sort, therecould be organizational changes
(28:07):
.
We have to respect that and wedon't know everything that's
going on all the time.
Right?
When that happens, again, Ithink responding with empathy,
right, is the better way to goabout it.
Kicking down doors, chasingquarter end and all that type of
stuff, and it's our fiscal listand that share the information
and I get all that.
But when you do that, youreally start to become unlikable
.
Yeah, it is hard to get dealsback on the rails.
(28:28):
Sometimes I'll call them dealsbecause they are right, they're
opportunities.
When an opportunity does go alittle quiet for a while, have
empathy and have some sort oflike a plan for the follow-up.
That's going to be a little bitmore effective and if it goes
quiet for a long time, maybe youlost that one.
Respond with empathy.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That makes a lot of sense.
I want to pivot a little bit tosecurity.
So I feel like we've obviouslytalked a lot about the sales
side of things.
I feel like we could continuetalking about that the entire
time, all day, all day.
And it almost feels like we'rehaving a beer right now.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, that's what I'm going for, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I like that vibe as well.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I feel like it's probably it should have been
beers.
It could have been beers here.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
This is true.
It is not 10 o'clock in themorning, no, definitely not so
security.
Obviously, the world ischanging incredibly quickly.
There's new threats every day.
There are, as you mentioned,like an incredible amount of
investment coming in, so there'snew competitors every day.
How does a leader comprehendall of this without spending all
(29:26):
of their day, every day, in?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
security?
Good question.
So I guess it depends on theleader.
Once again, go to your team, goto your people that spend time,
because when we start to lookat larger matrix organizations,
where you do have a lead ofmultiple heads and that type of
thing heads of departments andwhatnot you really do have to
draw from the knowledge of thoseteams to actually make informed
decisions, because you don'thave time to be everywhere in
(29:49):
all things.
The CEO of Arctic Wolf can't beeverything to everyone all the
time.
Very intelligent man, highlyrespected, incredible person,
but, yeah, he's got to focus onsales, operations, technology
everything goes along with itand so these organizations have
incredible people.
We've given them responsibility.
Right, if you're going to makeinformed decisions, you really
have to draw from theintelligence and the work that
(30:11):
those teams have done.
I think that's how you do it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And I know that you're the Robin to the Batman
of Faisan right now but if youwere to describe to our
listeners even some of the bigthings that are happening on the
security industry, what aresome of the macro trends that
people should be aware of?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, I think AI is such a buzz acronym at this
point, but it's a very realthing.
There's a tremendous amount ofdata out there.
It's worth more than gold.
I'm sure that you've had folkson your podcast that really got
into data.
Look, I think that what I'veseen is that bad actors, threat
actors, these types of folks Iwouldn't call them.
I wouldn't call them what wasthe opposite of lazy, because
they're not lazy but they are atthe same.
That's going to be somethingthat they do.
(30:57):
Social engineering is a lot ofwork, but it's a ton of
creativity.
Right, you can do that with AI,but it also requires a human
element.
I think that the differenttypes of threats that we're
seeing is too widespread to evenidentify one silo or even a
couple of them, because itchanges so fast.
Whatever I say on this podcastmight change by next week.
It's tough and, honestly, fromthe different types of things
we've seen, certainly here inCalgary, right is.
(31:18):
It is a heavily hit city forthreat actors because we have
the oil and gas headquarterscompanies here, and for Canada
that's such a tremendous amountof GDP, that if you harm those
companies, it tends to do a lotof damage, and so, ultimately,
the different types of socialengineering and whatnot.
I would argue that organizationsreally need to take staff
training seriously.
I know that staff use it as ahuge nuisance, but staff
(31:39):
training is.
It's expensive, it'sintentional, but there's a
reason for that, and I thinkthat all the staff really need
to focus on that.
And guess what?
That starts at the C-suite.
If you want to take itseriously, they need to prove
out how important that is andthey need to be the leader in
that.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
So that security, conversation and culture all the
way, all the way from the top,all the way to the bottom,
that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Who's responsible?
Here's a great question, right.
Who's responsible forcybersecurity at your
organization?
The answer is you are.
90% of breaches start at thestaff level, so everybody's part
of it.
And it's a far bigger thing,right?
Maybe XYZ person is using theexact same password on Netflix
that they are in their corporate.
These are the types of things,these hygiene practices, I think
(32:18):
are really neglected.
So, for practice, I'm not.
For me, I'm actually lessfocused on what threat actors
are doing and more on thepreventative side, notably as we
would tie it to the MITREATT&CK framework.
When I think about the leftside of that ATT&CK framework,
what are we doing over here tonegate these types of activities
?
Earlier on, that's all hygiene,right?
Do you have a whole bunch ofPII?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
in your inbox and just from an acronym place here.
So what is PII?
Sorry, personal, identifiable.
I'm going to do the acronymplace.
There we go yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Personally identifiable information, yes.
So if you have that type ofinformation present in your
different types of cloud appsand whatnot in your inboxes,
think about that.
That's gold to these guys.
So we have to think about thattype of stuff, so less focused
on the threats themselves andmore on what we can do.
Get proactive, have good cyberhygiene.
And it goes across everybody.
At this point, everyone's atarget.
(33:06):
As much as we don't want toadmit it, it's a very real thing
.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, and I know it seems like the buzzword right,
but everyone is a target, small,big, large, enterprise, public,
private, like the whole gamutis, without being yeah, I think
sometimes when I have anorganization say we're too small
to be a target, I think theresponse generally is you're too
small to be a headline andthat's fine.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
But, like we've seen, organizations of all different
shapes and sizes have incidencesand they are detrimental to
their organizations.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's crazy, and I'm I know that we could probably
spend the next 20 minutestalking about headlines and the
and which companies got out ofbusiness, et cetera, et cetera.
I was in an event yesterdaythat was talking about the big
bridge, which was millions andmillions of and I don't want to
start naming and shaming.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
All of a sudden, this podcast gets canceled real
quick.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
But I think that it's not a question of if, but when,
and that whole understanding ofthe framework and understanding
the components along it are soimportant.
I agree.
What are the conversations youfind yourself having right now?
Is it a lot of product-focusedconversations around the
platform that you're supporting,or are executives coming to you
with more existentialconversations around?
(34:17):
How does this fit into theoverall picture?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, I actually find that a lot of our conversations
are becoming a little bit moreeducational from the standpoint
of the challenges that weactually see based on the
various solutions that havepresented themselves in the
market.
It's become a very siloedmarket, right that you have silo
for XDR, silo for networkdetection response, you have
cloud detection response, youhave different types of log
(34:39):
aggregators, and this and all ofthem are different subject
matter experts and none of themtalk to each other.
It's a very challenging world,especially when we're as short
cyber professionals as we are inCanada and I think the number
is like 4 million globally orsomething like that.
We're short based on demand.
That's crazy.
It's a big number, yeah, and sowhen we think about that,
especially especially here inCalgary, I know that we do not
(35:01):
have as much cyber talent as wewould probably like, right, and
so there's a lot of challengespresenting themselves just
because we are so short on thoseresources.
Right, there's a lot of thingsthat have been purchased that
you know they might be a greatband-aid for a certain thing or
a certain situation, a certaincut, but it doesn't really play
well with the larger plan thatwhatever person in that
(35:23):
organization had put together sowe identify the challenges that
we're seeing in cybersecurityand how to rectify some of those
.
It is hard to go on a securityjourney because things are
always changing.
A key company, as part of yourcybersecurity journey, might get
purchased.
Then all of a sudden they'regone and then you have to
reevaluate.
Might get purchased, then allof a sudden they're gone and
then you have to reevaluate.
It is tough, right, but waymore emphasis is for our side
(35:47):
anyway has been focused aroundthe challenges we see, and it's
not just saying that our tool isgoing to solve all your
problems.
But are you thinking aboutthese things right?
We're not perfect either.
I'm a sales guy.
I'm not perfect.
I'm not an engineer in any way,shape or form, but we have
these conversations so oftenthat we're really learning a lot
and we're trying to helpcustomers understand.
What are you trying to do?
What are you like?
What journey are you trying togo on?
(36:07):
What is your ultimate goal?
Unfortunately, the security.
The posts continue to shift.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
They definitely continue to shift and move and
they're not posts sometimes.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Anything, and so you brought up a really interesting
point.
Just around the sprawl that'sstarting to happen in the
security landscape, there's somany niche products that solve a
very specific challenge, andwhat we see a lot when we go
into organizations is sometimesthat there's product A that does
four things.
You buy it for one thing andthen the three other components
(36:39):
aren't really used and then youcontinue to rinse and repeat and
there's so much overlap onthose platforms that there just
becomes almost like a securitybloat in a lot of environments.
Are you seeing that and how areyou working through that with
some customers?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah.
So we see, probably as much as50% of the cybersecurity tooling
that's been purchased incustomers' environments has
become shelfware.
Wow, at least 50.
And that's not to say thatthese tools aren't great tools,
because they really are.
There's incredible technologies, incredible processes, but
we're short cyber talent, we'reshort resources, so how can we
possibly keep up with the amountof data right that is that is
(37:15):
coming out and the amount ofinformation that's coming from
those tools?
It's's very hard to do.
Humans are not robots.
We're not cyborgs, at least yetGod knows what's going to
happen, but we're not.
So it's very hard to keep upwith that practice and that's
why, ultimately, we have to finda way to be more streamlined
and find ways to operationalizethe investments that we've
actually made.
That's a hard thing to do.
It's a very hard thing to do,but very hard thing to do.
(37:37):
But I do see a lot of bloat,for sure, and I do see very
expensive tools that are notbeing used to their full
potential because we don't havethe expertise to utilize them.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
So is that a people problem?
Because it sounds like peoplego into these things?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
No, I would argue process Process, okay, yeah,
yeah, I can't wait.
There's incredible.
You think about the types of ITprofessionals and security
professionals in our city.
We have some unbelievablytalented people.
We have a lot of talentedpeople, right?
But the process of all of it isstill relatively new for a lot
of these folks, right?
And how do we keep up with that?
What am I supposed to belooking for?
Did I miss something?
How can I validate?
How can I get those answersquickly?
(38:10):
You see what I'm saying.
You see what's happening here,right, and that's just.
It's a never ending list ofthings you have to go through.
But the problem is how do Iassign criticalities to all of
that?
What's most critical?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Hard to do.
The triage becomes thechallenge and there's been so
many conversations that I knowyou brought it up a few times
around the data and the datastate.
That continues to grow becauseeverything generates more and
more data now.
So the ability to filterthrough the noise no different
than the sales conversation, butto filter through the noise to
find the important things isgetting harder and harder.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, and classifying all of it right.
Yeah it is and, like I say,there absolutely is no perfect
solution for cybersecurity.
It does not exist.
Because as soon as you put inone solution, you identify that
you need something else and then, once that's in, you identify
you need something else.
Almost like a pyramid scheme, itfeels like sometimes where
you're having one and then itstarts to get bigger and bigger.
I think that what we are seeingin the industry is a continued
(39:03):
push towards a platformatizationof all of these products, but
you can make the argument thatthere's a series of products
that could be put into some sortof a platform, some sort of
bundle that can produce thoseoutcomes.
Maybe a bit of a shameless plugfor Arctic Wolf, but we're not
the only ones that are doing it.
I see what you did there, yeahbut we're not the only ones that
are doing it, and so,ultimately, I do think that that
is going to become more of afactor as we start to find ways
to operationalize theinvestments that we've made.
(39:25):
Like how do we make the mostout of these cybersecurity
purchases?
It's hard to do butplatformatize it to make it a
little bit easier, and we'reseeing that across a lot of the
big companies as well.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So, to wrap things up , there is a ton of amazing
information that you sharedtoday.
I hope so.
Is there one thing that youwish people would leave with if
you were to wrap everything upinto one piece of advice that
you really want our listeners towalk away with?
Is there something that stands?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
out to you.
So from the executive side, I'dsay be patient with us.
Camera's here, be patient withus.
We're not out there to get you.
We want to share greatinformation.
We want to provide value.
If the value is not with ustoday, be honest quickly, but be
patient with us and when itdoesn't go our way, give us that
debrief.
Please do that for us and goodluck, because it's a very
challenging world and I actuallydo mean that very genuinely.
(40:14):
Good luck To the sales side ofthe folks.
That's a world.
Be likable.
I think that's so lost in theindustry now is are you likable?
Be a good person, do the rightthing, even when it's a very
hard thing to do, and also bepatient with your prospects,
with people, because they'rebusy.
So that would be my big twotakeaways from both sides of the
house and for someone that'snot in either of those, I don't
(40:34):
know, I just hope that youenjoyed something.
I said today because I ranted afew times.
That would be my leafs.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
I love it If someone wanted to connect with you, if
they wanted to learn more, ifthey want to buy a whole bunch
of Arctic Wolf product, wherecan they find?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
you.
Yeah, Give me a call.
I'm easy to find on LinkedIn.
Honestly Deliver Digitalmarkets me really well.
Linkedin's great.
I'm a pretty open book.
My phone never really turns offDrives my wife crazy.
But yeah, I'm really easy tofind.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Amazing.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
I'm excited to maybe get out onthe golf course this summer and
thank you for taking the timefor coming on the show.
Oh, thanks for having me, man.
It's been a pleasure.
Cool, amazing, cheers, cheers.
Welcome back to Sell Me this Podcast, where we
explore the people, products andideas that are changing the
game in business and technology.
Today's guest is Scott Coleman,enterprise Account Executive at
Arctic Wolf, a leader incybersecurity From capital
markets to tech sales.
Scott's journey is anything buttypical and today he opens up
(00:31):
about what it takes to succeedin a fast-evolving, high-stakes
industry.
We'll dive into the realitiesof modern cybersecurity, what
executive leaders need to knowbut often miss the art of
navigating cold outreach withempathy, and how likability,
trust and preparation separatethe pros from the rest.
If you're in sales tech or justwant to better understand how
companies are defending againstmodern threats, this is a must.
(00:55):
Listen, let's jump in.
Hey Scott, welcome to anotherepisode of Sell Me this Podcast.
We're so excited to have youhere today.
I'm going to dive right intothings.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself and the work
that you do?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, so yeah, thanks for having me, keith.
This is exciting.
This is actually the first timeI've done a podcast, oh my
goodness, so this is.
Maiden Voyage.
Yeah, so we're getting set upthe microphone.
All that I'm like.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
this is it's quite official.
What are the odds that you crytoday?
I'm like 10 out of 10.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Okay, cry for sure especially if you're with the
emotional stuff.
My goal is to start off withyour childhood and we'll go from
there.
Nice, perfect.
Yeah.
So scott coleman, I'm anenterprise account executive
with arctic wolf.
I like to tell everybody justenterprise by title.
We look after customers of allsizes, right all the way from
five users in environment to ahundred thousand.
Yeah, we look after, I lookafter southern alberta.
We used to look aftersaskatchewan as well.
Companies grown.
With growth comes new people,new things, right, so right.
(01:46):
So just responsible forSouthern Alberta at this point
and working on the team inCanada here.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
That's amazing.
So security obviously tip ofthe tongue for a lot of people.
How did you find yourself intothe security industry?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh man, Did you want the real story or do you want
like a cool story?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, hopefully the real story is cool.
It's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I spent a long time in capital markets and finance
before I came into the techsector actually just shy of 11
years so that was reallyinteresting.
It was a big transition andwhen I moved in it was by fluke.
I wasn't working for about sixmonths.
I ended up going to Dell forabout five years.
I feel like a lot of peoplestart their tech careers at Dell
.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I remember you, that's right.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I took on the acquisition public sector
business for Dell for Alberta,saskatchewan, manitoba.
That was a lot of fun, had agreat journey, we had a
tremendous business, a lot ofhappy customers, partners etc.
And it was just a greatopportunity to join Arctic Wolf,
my engineer at Arctic Wolf.
He had already gone to ArcticWolf after spending some time
with Cisco and some other thingsand he had reached out to our
(02:39):
VP for Canada and said hey,listen, when you guys want to
put another person in theprairies, we want to put someone
in Calgary.
We should really go after Scott.
And that's the short version.
A few conversations later andhere we are.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, Obviously, you've worked in a couple of
different tech companies.
What's different about ArcticWolf?
I know you're incrediblypassionate about the work that
you do, but what really standsout about the company, the
product the environment, and Ithink the company would love for
me to say culture.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Just every other company wants me to say culture,
and they do have a greatculture, an incredible team,
hardworking people.
Look, we're Arctic Wolf's, cometo market with a really
interesting solution, one that Ido believe is incredibly unique
.
It fits the broader Canadianmarket and our market here in
Calgary extremely well.
So overall it's a solution.
It's people, it's an incrediblesales organization.
(03:22):
There's not one thing thatreally makes it stand out, I
would argue, but a greatsolution, great outcomes for our
customers and our partners aswell.
Actually, the Channel First-ledorganization was extremely
attractive to me.
I've worked in organizationsbefore where there was multiple
routes to conductingtransactions and getting
business done and whatnot,wherewithal if we go in one
(03:43):
direction and that makes itreally easy for us to build
powerful relationships with ourpartners and alliances and
whatnot.
One path, so I love it fromthat regard.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, Amazing and obviously security is such a
rapidly evolving market.
Right now, the questions youhave to ask, the questions you
get asked, I imagine, changeevery day.
If I'm an executive buyer rightnow, like I feel like it's
really hard to see through thenoise.
How do you differentiate in theconversations you're having,
and not even specifically withArctic Wolf, but how should
(04:13):
these executives that areworking on some of these really
challenging security problemsapproach the market and how
should they identify what theyneed for their organizations?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I realize that's a giant question.
No, it is.
Let's try and piece it alltogether here.
I don't know that there's onesingle answer for that.
For sure, and I would argue, insecurity as well, there's
especially not one answer forthat because there's so many
directions you can go.
We're tracking, keith,something like 4,000 security
tools you can buy on the marketright now and more every day,
and from all over the world,different countries and whatnot
US, canada, israel, everywhere,russia, god you can do like
(04:44):
anything.
At this point, everyone's got atool For executives when they
are going to market, when theyare looking at stuff.
I think the biggest thing is tobe open-minded, right.
Ultimately, from our side, Ithink what we need to understand
is that we don't have to beeverything for everybody, both
in sales and solution.
It's okay for customers to notbe ready to talk to not just me,
but anyone at that time.
I know that there'sfrustrations from the security
(05:06):
side, notably because there's somany players coming to market.
They're aggressive with theirmarketing, they do a lot of
different things and I know thatcan drive executives, cisos,
ctos, cios, managers, directors,vps I know it can drive them
crazy and they do get a lot ofthat outreach, and I'm sure that
we're doing a lot of that aswell.
But reach, whether and I'm surethat we're doing a lot of that
as well, but it is it is tough,right, because you're trying to
find interesting ways todifferentiate yourself and from
(05:27):
our side this being my businesswe've really tried to focus on
presenting a bit of a bit moreof a story in all of this, both
in our outreach and intentionalmarketing, but like focusing
less on the capabilities,because and I think that this is
a little bit of a sales clicheDon't focus on the, don't focus
so much on the capabilities, theproduct, but rather the
outcomes.
(05:47):
But I'm trying to paint a bitof a picture and trying to do
that in a creative way.
And that is hard to do withcold outreach, but the
unfortunate reality of coldoutreach.
But it's a great thing formarketing, it's a real thing.
Numbers count, right.
If I send out a hundred coldoutreaches of whatever type of
campaign you do, if you get oneperson to talk to you, that's a
successful campaign.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And it's such an interesting balance as well, and
I know you and I have talkedabout this at length before, but
it's almost becomes a necessaryevil, right?
Because, theoretically, peopledon't want their inboxes blown
up, and I feel like thoseprivate spaces have shifted.
It used to be your email inboxand that became a little less
private.
It maybe became your LinkedIninbox and your cell phone and
(06:30):
whoever.
I remember a time when textingsomeone that you weren't best
friends with was taboo, and Ifeel like all of those different
avenues are starting to shiftand mold.
But, at the same point, it'sthe job of an organization to
grow their market share, to gettheir message out, and so how
are you finding that balance?
And how are you?
If you were an executive, howwould you find that balance
(06:52):
between needing to know what'sout and needing to say I'm doing
my due diligence as a leader ofan organization, but also not
having every crevice of yourdigital life being blown up For
sure?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So I think first of all, we're customers as well
Telecom companies, certainlyLinkedIn, recruiters, everything
we deal with the same type ofstuff that executives do.
So I understand frustration.
I understand not wanting tohear from the same organization.
Recently I just got a newvehicle.
Once these dealerships caughtwind of that that I was looking,
so I get it To separate throughthe noise.
(07:21):
I think that a customer needsto have a bit of an idea of what
they want, but they need to beopen-minded to understand that
sometimes you might not knowwhat you're missing, and I know
that's hard when you get 20, 30of those outreaches per day.
Do you want to go and do allthe due diligence around that?
Probably not.
There's a lot of professionalwalk around and learn that way,
(07:47):
and then if you take a lot, ifyou spend some time to do that
or have a team around you thatcan do that, I would argue that
most CISOs aren't taking a lotof cold calls at this point.
They're not the people or theCTOs or CIOs, c-levels, really
not taking those.
The teams that work amongsttheir, or the team members that
work amongst their teams, arethe ones that are going to
validate that technology, and sofor those guys, I think that
(08:07):
there has to be a lot of trustgiven out.
Sometimes I think that's missed.
That's a huge one that I findall the time is you have this
concept and it's the same thingof owning a business.
When you grip it, grip it.
It's like this is my baby andyou have a hard time
relinquishing some of thatcontrol.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, there's this inclination to hold on to
everything, and especially withsecurity as well, because
there's some things where therisk isn't quite as high,
correct and security does notfit that profile, and so I can
definitely see just the humannature to want to hold on to the
things that you have dear.
Yeah, be even more prevalentthere?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Definitely, yeah, exactly.
And I think that those C-suitemembers have a vision.
Yeah, and what is that vision?
Have they defined that?
And if they have great, thenthat team should be able to weed
through the different types ofthings that they are getting
from, the different types ofcold outreaches or the
conversations they have at theseevents and these conferences or
networking or whatever.
They're trusted advisors,they're partners.
I love that Again, I love thatour company is channel led
(08:58):
because we can work with trustedadvisors, with their customers.
It's a much better approachrather than the next US or
Israeli or whatever companycoming in to say we got great
stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Listen to us so you can layer on some of those
relationships with more trustedlocal relationships to be able
to deliver on that.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, and again, that is a hard thing to do and to do
it in a productive manner.
But I would argue as well thaton the folks on our side, when
we do get that opportunity totalk, be ready.
And when you do have thosecolder outreachers or those
different types of campaigns Iwon't say any of the direct
campaigns that we're doing oranything like that when you send
out like some sort of a swag totake a meeting or something
like that, make that creative asyou can.
(09:37):
But also, if you get thatopportunity, be prepared.
Be prepared, because there's alot of folks that take those
calls and they are not ready forthat.
God bless the 22 year old SDRworking extremely hard, no fear
of the phone or whatever.
They get the 25 year CTO on thephone.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Are they ready?
One I remember when I wasstarting off my sales career and
there was so much focus on getthe meeting, get the meeting,
get the meeting, and you'd seepeople that would get the
meeting.
And then they get to themeeting and have no clue what to
actually say Exactly.
And I'd say what is more, evenvaluable than some of those
personal spaces to a lot ofthese leaders is time, and the
(10:15):
35 or 40 minutes that you haveset aside for that meeting you
can't really get back in yourcalendar.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
For sure.
No, I agree, and both from theexecutive side, like you, need
to be very intentional with theinformation that you're sharing
right.
Obviously, we want tounderstand the stories and the
outcomes of the different typesof products that we're bringing
to market, and I understand that.
But we also have to get to thepoint very quickly with these,
with these folks that do havevery jam-packed schedules and
don't have a lot of time forthis stuff.
A lot of times, especially Ifind in a lot of our discussions
and transactions and whatnot,we spend very little time with
(10:47):
the C-suite.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Almost none.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
We are working with the different types of directors
and VPs and whatnot.
I don't want to call themsoldiers, because that's
sometimes how all of us in thetech industry here in Canada
we're just a bunch of footsoldiers supporting US tech
companies, or whatever.
Well, those guys and ladies thathave gone out and really spent
that time dug into a product ora service or something like that
and word of mouth counts, right, it is hard when you're first
(11:09):
getting started.
There's different ways to makenoise in the market.
When I first joined Arcticthree years ago, we were not a
household name in Calgary.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It took time, but we had a strategy for that and it's
panned out and it's going well,yeah, and I feel like your name
is synonymous with it as well,and I feel like that brand
growth has been really excitingto watch and see.
One thing that you challengedme with and like I've always
taken the stance and I that thenoise is becoming a little bit
unbearable and that it'sbecoming tougher and tougher for
(11:37):
executives to to identifywhat's new and what's cool
because of the noise, and Ireally appreciated the
perspective that you challengedme with, which was this is a
necessary evil in order tocontinue making the market move
forward.
I'd love to dive into that alittle bit, so would you mind
kind of unpacking that a littlebit?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
And, again, maybe a lot of those executives haven't
been in a sales position before,but I would also make the
argument absolutely that theC-suite guess what that's the
most important salesperson forany organization.
If it's a for-profitorganization, which let's keep
it for-profit.
In this case, if the CEO ispushing it, that's going to be
your best salesperson, or theCTO or CEO, like whatever
(12:15):
technology.
And so ultimately, yeah, whenthese types of outreaches are
coming I know that there's, andI see them on LinkedIn all the
time you have a CISO or somesort of a C-suite person come
out, it's just just do bettersalespeople, don't do it that
way and blah, blah, blah.
But I will go back to the pointI made before.
Keith, it's CISO.
You might feel that way and Itotally respect that.
I really do, and because I'm acustomer as well of a lot of
(12:39):
different services.
Successful campaign because ithas you talking and the reality
of it is that if someone'stalking, whether good or bad,
there is a discussion aroundthat product happening and then,
if enough of it goes around,eventually say yeah, that
might've been a campaign thatfrustrated you or whatever, but
they actually have a reallygreat service or really great
technology.
Maybe it's worth looking at itand it really is just generating
(13:00):
awareness.
And so, while there'sfrustrations, these campaigns
have, quite frankly, been verysuccessful.
And for those executives, Iguess my only message is always
to be patient.
Right, they were young in theircareers at one point as well.
Right, and I know this iseasier said than done, real,
much easier said than done,right, but be patient with these
folks.
They're not out there tofrustrate you, right?
They're not out there to causeproblems.
(13:21):
In Canada we do have CASEL law.
I know in the States that's adifferent thing, I don't know
how that all works, but inCanada we have castle law.
Finding creative ways toconnect with different types of
decision makers, different typesof folks that are a part of a
medic plan and having that typeof practice in place is very
important.
And, once again, sometimes theseguys don't know what they're
missing, and it's not just artto love, it could be anything.
(13:41):
You don't know what you'remissing.
When you get into that positionand I think this is I like to
tie in like a professionalathlete, for example, they get
paid millions of dollars, right,and sometimes signing a lot of
autographs can be frustrating,sometimes the extracurricular
part that comes around with themillions of dollars and the
attention, and that type ofthing can be hard.
Same can be said withcelebrities.
(14:03):
But you have a responsibility,right.
You have a responsibility togive back a little bit.
You have a responsibility togive that time right, to give
back a little bit.
You have responsibility to givethat time right Because, guess
what, most people don't getthere on their own.
They have a team and so,ultimately, when those folks are
getting those cold reach outsand those different types of
campaigns, don't take itnegatively, be flattered.
People like SDRs have time aswell, account executives have
(14:26):
time as well, and that's ourresource and we're taking the
time because we do believe thatwe have something to offer value
.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
If you don't see that , that's fine, we move on and I
really appreciate thatperspective as well, and I think
that one story that I've beentold is that no one wakes up in
the morning thinking they'regoing to do something malicious
to someone correct Especiallyand I'm sure there are lots of
people that actually do approachit that way, but're trying to
build their career.
They're trying to tell a story,they're trying to build
(14:52):
something, and I think thathumanity is also something
that's really important in a lotof these interactions, and I do
agree that berating some ofthese people or taking some
misplaced X, y and Z out on themisn't necessarily the right
place either, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
People have bad days, and I think there's one concept
, one word that I thinksometimes falls off the map
because so many people are soexcited to share this solution,
they forget about likability.
Yeah, likability is a majorfactor If you, if you want to
have a genuine conversation.
Both sides of the table knowwhy they're having this
conversation generally, and sowe can get past that very
quickly.
So let's try and make this asenjoyable as a process as
(15:28):
possible.
The technology is good.
That's why we're here.
It's going to take care ofitself.
How can we make this asenjoyable as possible?
How can I be someone that folksenjoy talking to or enjoy
working with?
Are there things that I'm doingthat they find valuable, that
give them the opportunity towant to give me more of their
time?
That's very hard to do from theinside in these campaigns, but
there are ways to do it.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah Well, there was a really interesting stat that I
believe it was Gartner thatcame out with, where they talked
about the idea that a lot ofthese purchase decisions were at
least up to a certain point, ormade even before engaging with
the sales team Absolutely.
And so a lot of that researchhas been done, and so the role
of sales then becomes how do Isherpa them through this process
and how do I make thatexperience as excellent as
possible?
Experience as excellent aspossible so that, as they're
(16:11):
going through that emotionalstate of kind of making those
decisions, et cetera, et cetera,that it can be a really
memorable and amazing one forthem and that's a and that's a
great lesson for salespeople ishow they ask that question,
because a lot of times theydon't.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
There's a lot of assumptions, and that ties back
to my last point about themreally wanting to share this
great whatever, but how they askthose questions.
Yeah, that is a hard thing andsometimes it's hard to get that
out of the other side.
With the campaigns, with ArcticWolf, I've always been very
clear with all of our prospectsand whatnot.
We're not here to kick downdoors and we won't do business
(16:40):
that way.
We will be patient.
Everyone has numbers and that'sall fine.
We'll find ways to do that, butwe're going to do it the right
way, and that is ensuring thatwe remain likable, whether they
buy it or not.
Whether they buy Arctic Wolf orwhatever we're selling at that
time.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
We want the community , we want our partners to know
that they enjoy working with us,and you know this as well as I
do, that Calgary is a smallcommunity as well, and that what
is worse than losing somethingis leaving someone with a bad
taste in their mouth and burningthat bridge completely, and I
think the word gets around realquick, and I also think that
it's a it's just important to dothe right things in those
(17:12):
scenarios?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Definitely yeah, the right things and the intentional
things.
So far too often in our world,in the tech world I know you
know this from your previouslife we're faced with very tough
decisions where we know thatthere's an easier path, but it's
the wrong one.
In fact, we run into thatalmost every day, keith.
So keeping that integrity isragingly important by way of
your partners, by way of youralliance partners, your
(17:33):
customers, everybody that'sinvolved in the process, and I
agree, I completely agree withyour sentiment on that, because
we run into that far more oftenthan I like to admit, and so to
build on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
When you're dealing with some of these executives
that are in the spot where theymight be making the wrong choice
, of these executives that arein the spot where they might be
making the wrong choice, are yousaying that it's because you
see a path for them that theydon't see, or is it because
there is a sales quota attachedto something and you just have
to do the right thing where youknow it's not the right fit for
that customer Got it?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah.
So, first and foremost, youcan't call anyone's baby ugly no
matter how much you'd like tobecause you might think it might
not be the right thing.
They certainly do and they havetheir reasons for that.
There's an old.
There's an old story I'm tryingto remember the name of it, but
ultimately premise of it wasthere was a store called New
York downtown style sellingreally expensive coats, right To
(18:23):
fur coats, and the very wealthywoman came in, bought the fur
coat, brought it back the nextday it spilled something all
over.
It was clearly her fault, butcame in and threw a big fit.
Sometimes it's better to jumpin that boat with a customer
right and say, yeah, this isn'tgreat, I'm with you, this sucks.
And so maybe there's the sideof it where you look at their
solution and say, okay, yeah,you like it.
(18:46):
Maybe I can try and wrap myhead.
The tech sector no one loves totalk about their solutions more
than the people that put them in.
So give the opportunity toshare that story, get into that
boat with them and, if it'snegative, get in that boat as
well.
You can't be afraid to havehard conversations because, as
we know, in the tech sectorsometimes it's not how great
your solution is.
A lot of times it's how greatyou are at fixing it when
(19:06):
something breaks, and so get inthat boat with them, understand
and then ultimately produce theopportunity to drive value at a
later time.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I love it and I completely agree that empathy, I
feel like, is lost a lot andeveryone's so excited and I
share this with the most amountof respect to share their pitch
deck or to share their here'sthe brochure or whatever that I
have where they forget that.
A really important step, whichis how can I be more curious,
how can I understand whereyou're coming from and how can I
really sit in your boat?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, exactly, and it is.
Digging in is sometimes a hardthing to do.
You want to keep your values.
The challenging thing aboutbeing a salesperson is you do
have to be a chameleon.
You got to be every color inevery room and I totally
understand that.
But you have to maintainintegrity but also have respect
for the other side of the roomand the way we go to market.
(19:55):
I will never call anyone's babyugly.
Regardless of what the solutionis and I'm sure that there's
lots of solutions out there thatwould love to say that we can
do everything they can.
We'll do it for less orwhatever.
It doesn't matter what thecompany is.
That's totally out there.
I think that turns buyers off,keith.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I would agree with you, and I also can't stop
laughing at the you turn intoyour baby.
No one will call someone's babyugly.
I feel like that one's going tostick with me.
That's the thing I'm going toremember now is that saying
let's face it, I've seen lots ofpeople that they love their
baby so much.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I'm just like damn, oh great, looking kid, the
cutest baby in the world.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
No, I brought us off track here a little bit.
So you, as you've grown theArctic Wolf presence here in
Calgary, you've had really aprivilege to talk to a lot of
the different influentialbusiness leaders, tech leaders
in the city.
There's some relationships thatI'm sure stand out more than
others to you.
What are some of the thingswhen you think about from a
technology leader perspective,and whether it's the attention
(20:44):
they give you or the respect Iknow you've mentioned respect a
few times what are some of thethings that you wish you could
coach leaders around, around howto make the most out of some of
those technology relationshipsand those partnerships.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah.
So the first and foremost isenable your team yeah, Quite
frankly, enable your team.
Those technology leaders don'tneed to be in every meeting, and
so if they're giving their teamthe ability to actually as
Steve Jobs always said, youdon't hire smart people to tell
them what to do right.
Great leaders that I've seen inthe tech sector have really
empowered the people around themto get in, get the information
and make informed decisionsright.
(21:16):
So that concept of squeezingand letting go a little bit, I
think, is what makes incredibleleaders.
But then also, when we're atthe table with those leaders,
the ability to listen,understand, ask intelligent
questions.
Sometimes we run intosituations where they just don't
want to hear it.
They're like, but then I justchallenges them why are you here
?
Why are you here?
And a great leader can alwaysemulate why we're in this
(21:38):
meeting.
And let's get to the pointquickly, but be receptive to the
process.
So when folks are receptive tothe process, I think that they
get a lot more from it.
I've never left a room, Not oncehave we left a room in a
conversation.
In the three years and probably1500 pitches we've done, we
have never left a room where Ifelt that the customer didn't
get some value from theconversation, whether they buy
or not and being receptive tothose stories.
(21:58):
If you're going to take thetime, be present, but I think
salespeople can learn that aswell.
Quite frankly, don't be on yourphone my phone's gone up 10
times in my pocket no but bereceptive and listen to the
story and understand and be opento the topic.
But I do really think that theability to relinquish some of
that control and give your teamthe ability to take in the
learnings come to you this youdo need to look at this and
(22:20):
here's why and give them thattime is just so powerful.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
So powerful, and I think that's one thing you said
that stood out to me at the verybeginning, which was it's a lot
of the teams that you'reworking with and there's in
sales, a lot of the coaching,the training, the.
You see when some of theleadership sometimes is, hey,
I'll get to the C level, get tothe C level, and a lot of that
work is done in the trenches.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And it's done with the teams that are on the front
lines doing some of this defense.
We're doing some of thisreactive work on the security
side of things.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And I respect that, like I do respect that get to
the ultimate decision maker asfast as possible, like this old
sales ad.
I don't know From our side.
I think that there's a.
You have to identify a processthat works for the team that
you're working with and make ita meticulous process that you
can follow over and over againand be able to transfer that
knowledge.
There's nothing worse than aprocess that only one person can
(23:09):
do.
If it's not repeatable, it'snot a good process.
So put that in place, follow it, go down the different paths,
make sure that you're there.
I think that's pretty powerfulstuff when you do it that way.
And for an organization to say,get to that buyer's who's
possible.
If you follow the process,you're probably going to get
there.
There's all kinds of frameworks.
You can follow them, the medpicks and all that stuff, and
that's all very importantbecause I think it is valuable
(23:31):
to be very intentional in yourprocess.
But figure out what's good foryou, but make it repeatable.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, there is no shortage of sales.
Acronyms God.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I try so hard not to use, and in cybersecurity it's
even worse.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, I feel like the only thing worse than sales for
acronyms might be cybersecurity100%.
You need like a thesaurus ofacronyms to just make it through
the day.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
But and sales as well .
Sales is challenging because Idon't think anyone in my role
and when you were doing in thepast, nobody wants to be thought
of as a salesman.
But here's the thing it's anart man, it's an art and it's an
excruciating amount of work.
There's been times where, youknow, or when my wife was on
during mat leave or somethinglike that, and she was home when
(24:10):
I was working from home.
Maybe she thought at one pointshe could come down and have a
conversation in the office.
I'm on the phone all day, man.
Yeah, by the end of the day, Idon't want to talk to anybody
anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, totally good.
And I think that people see thelunch, the beer, the networking
events and then the golf, yeahand game.
But there is a lot more thatgoes into it For the people that
do it.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
They heard a quote when I was early on in my career
that sales can either be one ofthe easiest low-paying jobs
ever or one of the hardesthigh-paying jobs 100%.
And you're absolutely right.
Folks do see the networkingaspects and stuff like that, but
even that stuff gets veryexhausting.
I have two kids.
Man, I'm not as much as I lovehaving an espresso martini on a
Tuesday night at 10 pm.
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
But those opportunities also do present
themselves and I think that youdo have to be present, but pick
and choose your places, andthat's where I think one of the
things that I love about myprevious sales career as well
and I say previous with a littlebit of an asterisk, because I
feel like you're always sellingright and, whether or not you're
in sales or not, like there'salways a sales element, but you
get to develop these amazingrelationships and the
opportunity to sit across fromsomeone and have that espresso
(25:13):
martini at 10 PM.
There are friendships that I'vemade and, like you don't get
the opportunity to meet thatmany amazing people in many
other professions like that Iagree, and you know what that's.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
a?
The privilege is a perfect wordfor it and, even tying back to
our conversation of notfrustrating executives, it is a
privilege to get their time andI think that sometimes is lost
and we have to treat it.
Excuse me, we do have to treatit with the utmost respect
because, yeah, it's an absoluteprivilege to talk about your
product, your service, yourwhatever with anyone that will
listen.
So don't blow it.
(25:45):
Have a plan, prepare.
Everything's a negotiation,right?
How are you going to negotiatethis conversation right?
Every interaction we have inlife is a negotiation.
For Pete's sake, Be prepared.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
I know I like the theme of preparation, I like the
theme of respect.
Are there some things that whenyou look at I don't want to
call them deals, but if youthink about, like interactions
that you've worked on that havegone sideways or you wish they'd
gone different once again, fromthe perspective of some of
those leaders, are there somered flags that you look out for
that you just wish technicalleaders would approach certain
elements differently.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I would say one thing that I do believe that every
leader should do and I thinkit's unfair when they don't is
when it doesn't go your way,give us that debrief, give us
that opportunity to learn.
If it's something simple, tellme that they were cheaper.
Okay.
If that's all it is, thenthat's fine.
(26:37):
We go through salespeople,engineers, different types of
people we involve in the process.
Sometimes we work onopportunities with organizations
or engagements for up to a year, maybe more, two, three, four,
and when that decision finallycomes, and if it doesn't go your
way, give us the respect That'dbe.
My biggest ask of any executiveanywhere is to give us that
opportunity to learn, because wewant to understand how we can
be better.
We've spent time and resources.
It might not have gone our wayand, for the record, a good
(26:57):
salesperson and a good team willabsolutely respect the decision
you made.
Far too often we see it go theother way, where there's some
anger there over a big process.
But I've been on both sides ofit.
We're not going to win everysingle thing and that's okay.
So have have respect for thedecision that's been made.
Be be very complimentary of thedecision that they made From
the other side.
Time's been spent, so help usunderstand.
(27:19):
Give us that debrief.
I don't need two hours.
Give me 30 minutes.
Give me 15, so we canunderstand.
Security is hard, though,because you go through all these
different types of things theMNDAs, the, the.
You go through all thesedifferent types of things the
MNDAs, the compliance, thedifferent types of checklists
you have to go through, andwhatnot.
So sometimes folks are a littlebit hesitant to share with you
the decisions that they made andwhy, but ultimately, I would
challenge please give us thatopportunity.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And what's the joke?
You're almost like left on reador something like that, where
you're dating for a year andthen all of a sudden, someone
disappears.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And that's the other thing.
When you're in an engagement,speaking with customers,
sometimes things go quiet.
They call it going cold, right?
Hey, look, organizations andexecutives and directors and
infrastructure analysts andsystem admins and all these guys
they are busy people.
Something could blow up.
There could be a project theyhave to work on, there could be
a big change of some sort, therecould be organizational changes
(28:07):
.
We have to respect that and wedon't know everything that's
going on all the time.
Right?
When that happens, again, Ithink responding with empathy,
right, is the better way to goabout it.
Kicking down doors, chasingquarter end and all that type of
stuff, and it's our fiscal listand that share the information
and I get all that.
But when you do that, youreally start to become unlikable
.
Yeah, it is hard to get dealsback on the rails.
(28:28):
Sometimes I'll call them dealsbecause they are right, they're
opportunities.
When an opportunity does go alittle quiet for a while, have
empathy and have some sort oflike a plan for the follow-up.
That's going to be a little bitmore effective and if it goes
quiet for a long time, maybe youlost that one.
Respond with empathy.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
That makes a lot of sense.
I want to pivot a little bit tosecurity.
So I feel like we've obviouslytalked a lot about the sales
side of things.
I feel like we could continuetalking about that the entire
time, all day, all day.
And it almost feels like we'rehaving a beer right now.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, that's what I'm going for, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I like that vibe as well.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I feel like it's probably it should have been
beers.
It could have been beers here.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
This is true.
It is not 10 o'clock in themorning, no, definitely not so
security.
Obviously, the world ischanging incredibly quickly.
There's new threats every day.
There are, as you mentioned,like an incredible amount of
investment coming in, so there'snew competitors every day.
How does a leader comprehendall of this without spending all
(29:26):
of their day, every day, in?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
security?
Good question.
So I guess it depends on theleader.
Once again, go to your team, goto your people that spend time,
because when we start to lookat larger matrix organizations,
where you do have a lead ofmultiple heads and that type of
thing heads of departments andwhatnot you really do have to
draw from the knowledge of thoseteams to actually make informed
decisions, because you don'thave time to be everywhere in
(29:49):
all things.
The CEO of Arctic Wolf can't beeverything to everyone all the
time.
Very intelligent man, highlyrespected, incredible person,
but, yeah, he's got to focus onsales, operations, technology
everything goes along with itand so these organizations have
incredible people.
We've given them responsibility.
Right, if you're going to makeinformed decisions, you really
have to draw from theintelligence and the work that
(30:11):
those teams have done.
I think that's how you do it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And I know that you're the Robin to the Batman
of Faisan right now but if youwere to describe to our
listeners even some of the bigthings that are happening on the
security industry, what aresome of the macro trends that
people should be aware of?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, I think AI is such a buzz acronym at this
point, but it's a very realthing.
There's a tremendous amount ofdata out there.
It's worth more than gold.
I'm sure that you've had folkson your podcast that really got
into data.
Look, I think that what I'veseen is that bad actors, threat
actors, these types of folks Iwouldn't call them.
I wouldn't call them what wasthe opposite of lazy, because
they're not lazy but they are atthe same.
That's going to be somethingthat they do.
(30:57):
Social engineering is a lot ofwork, but it's a ton of
creativity.
Right, you can do that with AI,but it also requires a human
element.
I think that the differenttypes of threats that we're
seeing is too widespread to evenidentify one silo or even a
couple of them, because itchanges so fast.
Whatever I say on this podcastmight change by next week.
It's tough and, honestly, fromthe different types of things
we've seen, certainly here inCalgary, right is.
(31:18):
It is a heavily hit city forthreat actors because we have
the oil and gas headquarterscompanies here, and for Canada
that's such a tremendous amountof GDP, that if you harm those
companies, it tends to do a lotof damage, and so, ultimately,
the different types of socialengineering and whatnot.
I would argue that organizationsreally need to take staff
training seriously.
I know that staff use it as ahuge nuisance, but staff
(31:39):
training is.
It's expensive, it'sintentional, but there's a
reason for that, and I thinkthat all the staff really need
to focus on that.
And guess what?
That starts at the C-suite.
If you want to take itseriously, they need to prove
out how important that is andthey need to be the leader in
that.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
So that security, conversation and culture all the
way, all the way from the top,all the way to the bottom,
that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Who's responsible?
Here's a great question, right.
Who's responsible forcybersecurity at your
organization?
The answer is you are.
90% of breaches start at thestaff level, so everybody's part
of it.
And it's a far bigger thing,right?
Maybe XYZ person is using theexact same password on Netflix
that they are in their corporate.
These are the types of things,these hygiene practices, I think
(32:18):
are really neglected.
So, for practice, I'm not.
For me, I'm actually lessfocused on what threat actors
are doing and more on thepreventative side, notably as we
would tie it to the MITREATT&CK framework.
When I think about the leftside of that ATT&CK framework,
what are we doing over here tonegate these types of activities
?
Earlier on, that's all hygiene,right?
Do you have a whole bunch ofPII?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
in your inbox and just from an acronym place here.
So what is PII?
Sorry, personal, identifiable.
I'm going to do the acronymplace.
There we go yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Personally identifiable information, yes.
So if you have that type ofinformation present in your
different types of cloud appsand whatnot in your inboxes,
think about that.
That's gold to these guys.
So we have to think about thattype of stuff, so less focused
on the threats themselves andmore on what we can do.
Get proactive, have good cyberhygiene.
And it goes across everybody.
At this point, everyone's atarget.
(33:06):
As much as we don't want toadmit it, it's a very real thing
.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, and I know it seems like the buzzword right,
but everyone is a target, small,big, large, enterprise, public,
private, like the whole gamutis, without being yeah, I think
sometimes when I have anorganization say we're too small
to be a target, I think theresponse generally is you're too
small to be a headline andthat's fine.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
But, like we've seen, organizations of all different
shapes and sizes have incidencesand they are detrimental to
their organizations.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
It's crazy, and I'm I know that we could probably
spend the next 20 minutestalking about headlines and the
and which companies got out ofbusiness, et cetera, et cetera.
I was in an event yesterdaythat was talking about the big
bridge, which was millions andmillions of and I don't want to
start naming and shaming.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
All of a sudden, this podcast gets canceled real
quick.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
But I think that it's not a question of if, but when,
and that whole understanding ofthe framework and understanding
the components along it are soimportant.
I agree.
What are the conversations youfind yourself having right now?
Is it a lot of product-focusedconversations around the
platform that you're supporting,or are executives coming to you
with more existentialconversations around?
(34:17):
How does this fit into theoverall picture?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, I actually find that a lot of our conversations
are becoming a little bit moreeducational from the standpoint
of the challenges that weactually see based on the
various solutions that havepresented themselves in the
market.
It's become a very siloedmarket, right that you have silo
for XDR, silo for networkdetection response, you have
cloud detection response, youhave different types of log
(34:39):
aggregators, and this and all ofthem are different subject
matter experts and none of themtalk to each other.
It's a very challenging world,especially when we're as short
cyber professionals as we are inCanada and I think the number
is like 4 million globally orsomething like that.
We're short based on demand.
That's crazy.
It's a big number, yeah, and sowhen we think about that,
especially especially here inCalgary, I know that we do not
(35:01):
have as much cyber talent as wewould probably like, right, and
so there's a lot of challengespresenting themselves just
because we are so short on thoseresources.
Right, there's a lot of thingsthat have been purchased that
you know they might be a greatband-aid for a certain thing or
a certain situation, a certaincut, but it doesn't really play
well with the larger plan thatwhatever person in that
(35:23):
organization had put together sowe identify the challenges that
we're seeing in cybersecurityand how to rectify some of those
.
It is hard to go on a securityjourney because things are
always changing.
A key company, as part of yourcybersecurity journey, might get
purchased.
Then all of a sudden they'regone and then you have to
reevaluate.
Might get purchased, then allof a sudden they're gone and
then you have to reevaluate.
It is tough, right, but waymore emphasis is for our side
(35:47):
anyway has been focused aroundthe challenges we see, and it's
not just saying that our tool isgoing to solve all your
problems.
But are you thinking aboutthese things right?
We're not perfect either.
I'm a sales guy.
I'm not perfect.
I'm not an engineer in any way,shape or form, but we have
these conversations so oftenthat we're really learning a lot
and we're trying to helpcustomers understand.
What are you trying to do?
What are you like?
What journey are you trying togo on?
(36:07):
What is your ultimate goal?
Unfortunately, the security.
The posts continue to shift.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
They definitely continue to shift and move and
they're not posts sometimes.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Anything, and so you brought up a really interesting
point.
Just around the sprawl that'sstarting to happen in the
security landscape, there's somany niche products that solve a
very specific challenge, andwhat we see a lot when we go
into organizations is sometimesthat there's product A that does
four things.
You buy it for one thing andthen the three other components
(36:39):
aren't really used and then youcontinue to rinse and repeat and
there's so much overlap onthose platforms that there just
becomes almost like a securitybloat in a lot of environments.
Are you seeing that and how areyou working through that with
some customers?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah.
So we see, probably as much as50% of the cybersecurity tooling
that's been purchased incustomers' environments has
become shelfware.
Wow, at least 50.
And that's not to say thatthese tools aren't great tools,
because they really are.
There's incredible technologies, incredible processes, but
we're short cyber talent, we'reshort resources, so how can we
possibly keep up with the amountof data right that is that is
(37:15):
coming out and the amount ofinformation that's coming from
those tools?
It's's very hard to do.
Humans are not robots.
We're not cyborgs, at least yetGod knows what's going to
happen, but we're not.
So it's very hard to keep upwith that practice and that's
why, ultimately, we have to finda way to be more streamlined
and find ways to operationalizethe investments that we've
actually made.
That's a hard thing to do.
It's a very hard thing to do,but very hard thing to do.
(37:37):
But I do see a lot of bloat,for sure, and I do see very
expensive tools that are notbeing used to their full
potential because we don't havethe expertise to utilize them.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
So is that a people problem?
Because it sounds like peoplego into these things?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
No, I would argue process Process, okay, yeah,
yeah, I can't wait.
There's incredible.
You think about the types of ITprofessionals and security
professionals in our city.
We have some unbelievablytalented people.
We have a lot of talentedpeople, right?
But the process of all of it isstill relatively new for a lot
of these folks, right?
And how do we keep up with that?
What am I supposed to belooking for?
Did I miss something?
How can I validate?
How can I get those answersquickly?
(38:10):
You see what I'm saying.
You see what's happening here,right, and that's just.
It's a never ending list ofthings you have to go through.
But the problem is how do Iassign criticalities to all of
that?
What's most critical?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Hard to do.
The triage becomes thechallenge and there's been so
many conversations that I knowyou brought it up a few times
around the data and the datastate.
That continues to grow becauseeverything generates more and
more data now.
So the ability to filterthrough the noise no different
than the sales conversation, butto filter through the noise to
find the important things isgetting harder and harder.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, and classifying all of it right.
Yeah it is and, like I say,there absolutely is no perfect
solution for cybersecurity.
It does not exist.
Because as soon as you put inone solution, you identify that
you need something else and then, once that's in, you identify
you need something else.
Almost like a pyramid scheme, itfeels like sometimes where
you're having one and then itstarts to get bigger and bigger.
I think that what we are seeingin the industry is a continued
(39:03):
push towards a platformatizationof all of these products, but
you can make the argument thatthere's a series of products
that could be put into some sortof a platform, some sort of
bundle that can produce thoseoutcomes.
Maybe a bit of a shameless plugfor Arctic Wolf, but we're not
the only ones that are doing it.
I see what you did there, yeahbut we're not the only ones that
are doing it, and so,ultimately, I do think that that
is going to become more of afactor as we start to find ways
to operationalize theinvestments that we've made.
(39:25):
Like how do we make the mostout of these cybersecurity
purchases?
It's hard to do butplatformatize it to make it a
little bit easier, and we'reseeing that across a lot of the
big companies as well.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So, to wrap things up , there is a ton of amazing
information that you sharedtoday.
I hope so.
Is there one thing that youwish people would leave with if
you were to wrap everything upinto one piece of advice that
you really want our listeners towalk away with?
Is there something that stands?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
out to you.
So from the executive side, I'dsay be patient with us.
Camera's here, be patient withus.
We're not out there to get you.
We want to share greatinformation.
We want to provide value.
If the value is not with ustoday, be honest quickly, but be
patient with us and when itdoesn't go our way, give us that
debrief.
Please do that for us and goodluck, because it's a very
challenging world and I actuallydo mean that very genuinely.
(40:14):
Good luck To the sales side ofthe folks.
That's a world.
Be likable.
I think that's so lost in theindustry now is are you likable?
Be a good person, do the rightthing, even when it's a very
hard thing to do, and also bepatient with your prospects,
with people, because they'rebusy.
So that would be my big twotakeaways from both sides of the
house and for someone that'snot in either of those, I don't
(40:34):
know, I just hope that youenjoyed something.
I said today because I ranted afew times.
That would be my leafs.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
I love it If someone wanted to connect with you, if
they wanted to learn more, ifthey want to buy a whole bunch
of Arctic Wolf product, wherecan they find?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
you.
Yeah, Give me a call.
I'm easy to find on LinkedIn.
Honestly Deliver Digitalmarkets me really well.
Linkedin's great.
I'm a pretty open book.
My phone never really turns offDrives my wife crazy.
But yeah, I'm really easy tofind.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Amazing.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
I'm excited to maybe get out onthe golf course this summer and
thank you for taking the timefor coming on the show.
Oh, thanks for having me, man.
It's been a pleasure.
Cool, amazing, cheers, cheers.
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