February 23, 2025 • 39 mins
Unlock the secrets behind maximizing your ServiceNow investments with insights from Jeff Vosburgh, a crucial player in the ServiceNow landscape and leader at Dyna Software. Jeff shares his journey from technology sales at GE Capital to transformative roles at ServiceNow and Deloitte, before joining Dyna Software. Together, we explore the innovative Guardrails application, designed to empower organizations while minimizing operational risks, and discuss the strategic importance of governance in realizing true ROI from platforms like ServiceNow.
We dive into the often-misunderstood concept of governance as a catalyst for innovation, especially within large financial institutions. Jeff explains how tools like Guardrail can streamline IT processes, enabling departments to innovate independently without bottlenecks. Listen as we highlight the significance of selecting the right partners within the ServiceNow ecosystem and the growing technical literacy across businesses. Plus, we touch on the transformative role of AI, encouraging organizations to adopt a mindset of curiosity and optimism to revolutionize business practices.
Finally, we examine the impact of generative AI on ServiceNow's future, offering a glimpse into how it could reshape development roles and business models. The discussion extends to strategic governance in enterprise platform negotiations, providing valuable insights for CIOs looking to navigate substantial investments. We wrap up with a reflection on life advice—how simple virtues like kindness and reliability can profoundly impact our professional and personal lives. Join us for an episode filled with technical insights and heartwarming life lessons.
Sell Me This Podcast is brought to you by the team at Deliver Digital, a Calgary-based consulting organization that guides progressive companies through the selection, implementation, and governance of key technology partnerships. Their work is transforming the technology solution and software provider landscape by helping organizations reduce costs and duplication, enhance vendor alignment, and establish sustainable operating models that empower digital progress.
If you believe you deserve more from your technology partnerships – connect with the team at:
www.deliverdigital.ca
This episode of Sell Me This Podcast was expertly edited, filmed, and produced by Laila Hobbs and Bretten Roissl of Social Launch Labs, who deliver top-tier storytelling and technical excellence. A special thanks to the entire team for their dedication to crafting compelling content that engages, connects, and inspires.
Find the team at Social Launch Labs at:
www.sociallaunchlabs.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What ServiceNow is talking about is our issue.
This is what we need to do.
There is going to be a realshift and then, when the
business goes holy, smokes likelet's really see what this can
do, because Welcome to Sell Methis Podcast, the show where we
break down the art and scienceof selling strategy and success.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Today we're diving into the world of ServiceNow
with Jeff Fosberg, a key playerat Dyna Software, a company
dedicated to helping businessesstreamline operations and
maximize the value of theirServiceNow investments.
Navigating big softwarepurchases can be overwhelming,
and getting real ROI from aplatform like ServiceNow
requires real decision, theright strategy and strong
(00:44):
governance.
That is exactly what we'reunpacking in today's episode.
So, whether you're consideringServiceNow, looking to optimize
your current implementation, orjust want to hear from an expert
in software solutions, thisepisode is packed with insights
you won't want to miss.
Let's get into it.
Jeff, welcome to the show, andwe're going to dive right into
things today.
Why don't you tell me a littlebit about yourself, your
(01:05):
background and what led you toyour role at Dyna Software?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, Thanks, Keith.
I really appreciate you havingme on.
We've known each other for along time so it's exciting to be
a part of what you're doing now.
Yeah, I guess a little bitabout myself.
I've been in the technologysales space for geez over 25
years, started off with GECapital and just progressed from
there being from inside salesto doing some very simple
solution consulting and then tomost of my career has been spent
(01:30):
in account management for largetech companies out of
California.
So it's been a great career upsand downs, like all things, but
all in all, the world of techsales has been really
fascinating and it's been that'sbeen a very good life.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, and so, without pumping up your ego too much,
like I feel like when you saythe name Jeff Vosburgh in
Calgary it's almost likesynonymous with ServiceNow.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, yeah, servicenow is certainly.
I had a really good stint withwith NetApp back in the day as
well, so I was there for aboutseven years.
But but really I think where mycareer flourished and really
where I found my footing wasreally in the ServiceNow
ecosystem.
So I was with ServiceNow forabout six years and then I
actually took a sort of a globalrole with Deloitte, doing an
alliance role with Deloitte andServiceNow and really been in
(02:14):
the ServiceNow ecosystem eversince and actually joined up
with two of my former customerswhen I was at ServiceNow.
So they ran the ServiceNowplatform at Shaw and they had
built this incredibleapplication called Guardrails.
So they ran the ServiceNowplatform at Shaw and they had
they'd built this incredibleapplication called Guardrails
and they had this company calledDynasoftware and about three
years ago, just the planetsaligned where we all it just
made sense for us to cometogether as a bigger team and
(02:35):
it's been a.
It's been a fun run.
We've we've expanded, we'vegrown, we've taken this, this,
this technology, to a globalaudience, which has been
fantastic for a small companyout of Calgary.
So it's been super, superexciting.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I'm super excited to dive into some questions, just
even around how you've grown theplatform, how you've grown your
business, but at a high level.
Obviously, there's a lotchanging in the technology space
.
Servicenow is a rapidlyevolving platform.
Guardrails is a rapidlyevolving platform.
What sets you apart in thisspace and really what's the
challenge you're looking tosolve?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, and it's.
It's a.
We really started off and I'llbe speaking on behalf of the
founders.
The reason that they builtGuardrails in the first place
was they recognize the immensepower that Guardrails that
ServiceNow itself as a platformhad.
The challenge was is that therewasn't a lot of gates or
measures in place in theplatform to really protect
customers from pardon theanalogy, but if you get too much
(03:29):
rope you likely can hangyourself, and a lot of
organizations really struggledwith that and they would
actually hold back innovation.
They would hold back on reallydriving business outcomes
because they were afraid of therisk that it would entail.
And it really became a bigissue for organizations that
were investing a ton of money inServiceNow because they
couldn't take advantage of allthe service they had to offer.
(03:49):
So they ended up spending,ultimately, more money than they
should have been spendingbecause they weren't getting the
outcomes.
So that's where Guardrailsreally had its birth was through
recognizing that this was amajor and a foundational
challenge that all organizationshave with respects to getting
value out of ServiceNow.
So Guardrails really helps them, as the name would suggest,
provide guardrails.
(04:10):
So you think of it as ServiceNowis that Ferrari of an
enterprise service managementplatform.
But if you don't have theproper measures in place, you're
pretty leery to take thatFerrari out of first gear.
You're going to go very slowlyand very methodically through
the winding mountain passes, but.
But if you put guardrails up,the metaphor holds that you can
take your foot off the clutch,pop it in second gear, third
(04:31):
gear, fourth gear.
Let's really see what this cando, because you don't have the
risk now of driving your car offthe cliff.
So, at a very sort ofmetaphorical level, that's what
guardrails is all about.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
All right, so we have a first ever on some of this
podcast, which is we've had amid-episode furniture swap.
And Jeff, do you have a newchair?
You're comfortable?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I feel better.
Yep, yep.
Okay, the slouching factor isbetter, so I can finally sit up
with better posture.
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
We're feeling good.
I feel like you might win theaward for tallest guest we've
had so far.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So far.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
But there's still many episodes left in the season
We'll see how that goes.
A large and exciting platformServiceNow is, but there's so
many directions thatorganizations can take it.
There's so many differentavenues and use cases.
If I'm a business owner and I'mstarting to think about taking
some of those leaps and evenevaluating is this platform
(05:21):
right for me?
From your experience, what aresome of those first steps that
they should take?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I think that it's a really good question, because I
think that one of the challengesof ServiceNow is because it is
so broadly powerful.
If you ask yourself canServiceNow do this?
The answer, invariably, willalways be yes.
I think you can alwaysguarantee that whatever use case
or whatever business process orwhatever workflow you have, yes
, it could go on, servicenow.
I think the question thatcustomers need to ask, though,
(05:46):
is should it so take the would,or could it do it and replace
that with should, and not to saythat you should navel, gaze
over and spend a ton of timeanalyzing, but really think
about where that core process is, where that core business
outcome you're looking for.
Does it belong in service now?
Does it make sense to be there?
I would argue that in mostcases, it probably does.
(06:08):
I just think there needs to besome awareness to how to do that
work properly.
Again, not to bring it back towhat Garfield is all about, but
that's really where we helpcustomers as well.
Is it?
A lot of times the CTO or theCIO, or even though the platform
owner recognizes the immensepower of what ServiceNow could
be, but they're very reluctantto open that kimono up to say
(06:28):
let's get multiple developmentstreams happening.
Let's get citizen developmenthappening.
Let's get distributeddevelopment, other partners on
the platform.
The challenge becomes reallymanaging the complexity of the
work that's happening in all thedifferent groups, and that fear
of that risk is probably one ofthe single biggest things that
holds customers back.
So I would say, before anycustomer makes a big investment
(06:48):
or takes the next step inservice, now really take a look
at your overall governance.
Understand.
Are we doing things the rightway?
Are we introducing technicaldebt that is going to come back
and bite us two years from now,three years from now?
Like most platforms, there'shuge upgrades that happen twice
a year.
So if you've created asituation where you're not able
to upgrade and you're missingall the new feature sets, you're
really spending a lot of moneyfor things that you're not using
(07:10):
.
So it becomes really criticalthat the customers take that
governance first perspective andthat's really where we spend
all of our time is just helpingreframe.
Like it's all well and goodthat you want to build this
massive castle or this massivecomplex with ServiceNow, but if
your foundation isn't rock solid, you're going to have problems.
So that's where we come in andhave that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I really love that you brought that up.
But one of the things that Ilove to say is that technology
is a great amplifier.
If you have a bad processor,you have a bad.
It's not going to magicallysolve those problems.
In fact, it's probably going tomake them worse.
Yeah, and it sounds like it'sthe same in this scenario, where
there's a lot of good that canbe done.
But if you have if you don't dothat the right work up front,
if you don't do the heavylifting up front, you can really
just amplify some bad thingsthat already existed or maybe
(07:53):
you didn't know existed withinyour organization.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
A hundred percent and a lot of organizations
recognize that they are creatingthis technical debt and they
are creating this sort of thisissue down the road and then it
becomes a huge problem.
It's this big issue that nowneeds to be resolved, whether
it's going back to Greenfieldtype initiative.
There's a lot of consultingorganizations that are pitching
and selling back to out of thebox, helping customers get back
there, and that's a huge expense.
(08:17):
And it's not just a hugeexpense in consulting too.
It's a huge expense in time.
When that project's happening,really nothing is going to
deliver to the business.
No one's doing massiveinnovation at the same time when
you're doing a back to back toout of the box.
So there's a real, there's areal deep value in that building
, that governance early on.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Is that some people, is that one of the challenges
that you see, where you getbrought in lots of where they've
maybe they've got reallyexcited.
They've opened the kimono, soto speak, and then all of a
sudden they've turned on allthese features.
They're not quite sure what'svaluable, what's not, what's
connected's not how it all tiestogether, and they just put up
their hand asking for help.
Is that?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, you know ServiceNow has become a really,
really powerful sales engine aswell.
They're known sort of the worldover for all the capabilities.
They have an incrediblytalented and in-depth sales team
to get the sales or to get theorganizations excited about what
ServiceNow can do.
And what's happening a lot oftimes now is that those
conversations are actuallyhappening outside of IT.
(09:12):
You know, ServiceNow is anamazing product for HR, amazing
platform for CSM, for customerservice management, for supply
chain management, even somefinance apps.
So those conversations arehappening in the business and
then when the business goes holysmokes like what ServiceNow is
talking about is our issue, thisis what we need to do they go
back to the ServiceNow team andthe ServiceNow team.
(09:32):
They're partially excited, butthey're also freaked out because
it's hard enough, as it is, tomaintain the risk posture.
And then the last thing theywant to do is throw on finance
or throw on HR if they don'thave that foundational sort of
governance in place.
And that's really where we seethe sort of the, the, the
(09:54):
dichotomy between customers.
Customers that that thatunderstand it can really um, put
folks on their governance.
They accelerate fastorganizations that don't.
It's, it's really.
It's simple as that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It sounds similar to security.
I've always said security.
Everyone always looks atsecurity as the re, the, the
reason you can't, the big nofactor.
I can't do security because ofX, y and Z, but I firmly believe
that with the right security,that's the reason you can do
things right.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Bingo and the three sort of value pillars that we
really focus on the reduction ofoperational overhead, the
elimination of development riskand accelerated innovation.
A lot of organizations, whenthey hear the word governance or
they hear something like thatthey immediately relate that to
well.
When they hear the wordgovernance or they hear
something like that, theyimmediately relate that to well.
That's going to slow me down,that's going to be in my way,
that's going to be negative, butit's exactly the opposite and I
(10:35):
think to your point, it's theenabler for innovation.
Once you have that in place,you then what used to take you a
day takes two hours.
So we really accelerate thatbecause now they have confidence
that every single piece ofdevelopment that's happening is
adhering to best practices ispart of the overall story, as
opposed to going rogue andcausing issues.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Especially with what you just mentioned too, around
how a lot of that innovation isbeing driven from not the IT
team but the business, andthere's all these different
modules that can be turned on.
And I won't name names, and I'msure when I mentioned this
story you'll probably knowexactly who it is but there was
one organization I worked withand IT was their smallest user
of service now, and I'm surethere's more than one case on
(11:17):
this one, but they used it in awhole bunch of elements of their
business very sophisticated, aton of automation, and their IT
was used as a ticketing system.
And I think that IT sometimesnow can turn into some of those
roadblocks that are slowing downthat innovation, because maybe
they understand the risksdifferently.
They're the ones that might beleft holding the bag at the end,
(11:38):
and so governance, as you'rementioning, can unlock them.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I think that that's exactly the scenario.
We've actually been veryfortunate.
We've got into most of thelarge Canadian banks.
We just brought in a couple ofUS banks just in December as
well, and the theme for all ofthem is so IT is where we're
going, like we actually becauseit is Guardrail sits on actually
a ServiceNow product that webuilt that's available in their
store.
So IT still has a massivelyimportant part in the
(12:04):
conversation we have.
But in large banks, what'shappening is that they're
looking at what they're spendingon ServiceNow, they're looking
at the demands their businesshas and they're quite quickly
realizing that there's a realbottleneck at IT, and so the
business is clamoring for newthings.
But IT's like we just we can'tthe way that we manage things
(12:24):
today.
We can't grow to what you needus to do.
So we have to think ofsomething different, and one of
the ways would be throwingbodies at it.
Right, hire 10 more people,hire a bunch of people to go
through all your developers code, really make sure that
everything is good.
Or you look for a tool, you lookfor a product that automates
that, that makes that happen.
So really the catalyst for usin the larger financial
institutions really is thatusing guardrails to unlock
(12:46):
distributed development, whetherthat's allowing the HR teams to
do their own development work,letting the supply chain folks
do their own work, or bring inmultiple partners.
Maybe there's a GSI that doessomething really well and then
they found a boutique partnerthat does something else really
well.
How do you have all of thoseplayers on your platform at the
same time without causingconflicts?
(13:06):
You need a tool.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And that's where we come in.
100%.
You bring up a good question aswell, even around the expertise
side of things.
So, with there being so manydifferent avenues that you can
take and utilize in the platform, I imagine that even selecting
the right partners for some ofthose niche skill sets opens up
a whole can of worms as well,and governance is one element to
(13:29):
making sure that, once you'vepicked the right people, that
they're able to stay in lockstep, they're able to adhere to what
you wanted them to do as abusiness.
But what about even taking astep before that and finding
those right partners?
How does a business even goabout finding the right fit for
their organization in that seaof ServiceNow partners?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Sorry about that.
I think that's a bit of a multi.
A lot of times the best partnerfor any particular job is the
partner that sort of aligns withwhere the customer currently is
.
There's big global GSIs andthen there's very small I'm
sorry, what's a GSI?
Just Global Service Integrator.
Okay, perfect, Sorry.
Global Systems Integrator.
(14:13):
So that would be like the KPMGs,the Deloittes, the Accentures,
the big guys, the real big ones,and really I think it's
alignment with what thebusiness's expectations are.
Every partner has greattechnical resources.
Every partner's got abilitiesgalore.
Where I think good projects andbad projects diverge is just
alignment to the overall outcomethat the client wants.
(14:35):
If there's a mismatch from thebeginning, there'll be a
mismatch at the end, and I wouldjust encourage organizations to
reach out and talk to theirfellow colleagues and other
organizations their experienceswith each of the different
partners.
Every partner's got tremendousstrengths and there's also areas
where each partner probablyisn't as strong.
So helping you can do your ownresearch and tap the market.
(14:56):
And there's lots of people thatwill be very happy to share that
feedback with them.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, I wasn't going to make you name names or
anything or pick your top threefavorites, but that's really
sage advice there.
So when you think aboutstarting to the scalability,
flexibility, the innovation ofthe platform, you're seeing some
of these changes come fromoutside of IT.
How are they mobilizing theorganization and having those
conversations to be able tothink about what's different?
(15:22):
Because I feel like thetechnical literacy is increasing
across the business butdepending on the organization,
there's still varying levels ofmaturity.
Like, how are you seeingorganizations tackle driving the
innovation of the platformforward?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
And it really does vary.
When I was at ServiceNow forsix years and it was always
fascinating to me in seeing oneorganization and again you got
to keep in mind every person whobuys ServiceNow buys the exact
same thing.
Your ITSM product is identicalto everyone else's, but there's
such an incredible variance interms of how well each customer
(15:56):
is doing with that platform.
Are they accelerating, are theygetting the value out of it or
are they struggling?
And the reality is that it hasnothing to do with the products,
because the product is the samething across the board.
It really does come down to theorganization's ability to
handle operate, ourorganizational change.
I think OCM, like organizationalchange management, is probably
(16:17):
the most under.
There's just not enoughimportance put on that.
You look at a lot of these bigscale transformations.
They don't live up to fullywhat they expected them to, and
my belief in my experience isthat it just came down to.
It wasn't sold properly to theindividual end users.
They didn't understand the fullvision.
(16:39):
And it's hard to do too.
These are mega platforms andthese business processes are
very large and complex, so itdoes take time to move the
needle.
I would say if, uh, you know,for any organization out there
that's considering growingservice now or really any
platform for that matter reallyhave a strong plan around your
OCM, getting your end users,getting the the you know, the
(17:01):
customers that you're servinghyped about what this technology
is going to mean for them aswell, and I think talking less
about the technology and moreabout the outcome is also
critically important.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I feel like everyone.
I don't want to say thetechnology is the easy solve,
but sometimes I feel like thetechnology is actually the
easiest part.
It's the people that are hardpart.
I read a study recently fromGartner that talked about I
think it was like 70% of thoseenterprise transformation
projects actually fail and Ithink it's for that exact reason
because people don't includethe end users, they don't
(17:32):
include their teams and theirpeople, and then they just have
this magic show almost wherethey just do this grand
unveiling and all of a sudden,here's your new platform.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
And I think it's going to become even more
pronounced with as AI becomesmore prevalent and more
ubiquitous across the entireworld.
Really, I think there's goingto be a lot of fear in that when
OCM fails is because people areafraid of something and they
whether it's intentional orwhether it's subliminal they're
not all in there and they're notgoing to put all their effort
in to make sure this project issuccessful.
(18:01):
And I feel that, with with howpowerful AI is becoming, I think
the fear factor of technologyis going to become that much
more, and I don't think that'sgoing to be what holds it back.
But I think that's going to bethe opportunity for
organizations to figure out howthey can put their own
employees' minds at ease.
These new technologies are nothere to replace you.
(18:23):
They're not here to put you outof a job.
They're here to enhance.
They're here to help us solvethe bigger problems faster.
But without proper managementand leadership, people's minds
will immediately go.
They're bringing this in tofire me and everything will fail
because of that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And I think people are latching onto some of those
headlines right when you seesome of the headlines and,
ironically, a lot of thoseshifts are in the technology
industry as well, but thenumbers are staggering.
So if you're talking to leadersabout some of these big
organizational changes, how areyou coaching them to make sure
that you're talking to leadersabout some of these big
organizational changes?
How are you coaching them tomake sure that they're going to
bring in their people along withthem rather than alienating
(19:00):
them and making them feel alittle bit afraid as they make
some of these shifts?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I would be overstating if I say I'm having
a lot of those conversations,like our product work, quite.
But we do have a lot ofconversations with the GSIs,
like with the Deloitte, theKPMGs of the world, because we
do have some very strongstrategic partnerships with them
and for them.
I'll just parrot back what Ihear them talking about.
It is their singular biggestfocus is how do we get the human
engaged, how do we make thishuman connection with this
(19:26):
technology, as opposed to havingpeople feeling alienated.
So I think a lot of it willjust be also like opening the
aperture of people's vision ofwhat their own roles are.
If you go to, if you go to workevery day and you get the
blinders on that this is what Ido and this is the value I bring
you will forever feel at riskbecause you're never opening
that, that aperture.
And I do think that's anopportunity for employees
(19:48):
because employee satisfactionhappens when you feel there's so
much I can influence, there'sso much I could do, there's a
lot of value that I can bring.
But if you're very focused andvery just myopic in your
thinking, there are going to betechnologies that will nip away
at that myopic vision.
Expanding that aperture isgoing to be a challenge for
(20:08):
organizations, but I think it'salso going to be very
inspirational.
I think we will see a littlebit of a.
There will be some shiftsPeople will leave organizations
and people will joinorganizations, but I think those
that will succeed and reallyflourish in this new AI world
are the ones that can lookbeyond the fear and look at this
as wow, this is incrediblypowerful stuff.
(20:29):
This is going to changeeverything for us.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, I know this is going to change everything for
us.
Yeah, no, and I think a lot ofthe people that understand the
technology have a little bit ofapprehension, but there's also
this incredible optimism aroundwhat can be delivered.
I know we're going off onto alittle bit of a rabbit hole here
, but is there a common fabricyou're seeing amongst these
people that have thataspirational view towards AI and
these people that are divinginto some of these really
(20:55):
exciting elements at the enduser level?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It's those that I think the ones that are, that
are inquisitive, that areexcited and who see the
potential.
They're also everyone'sreluctant.
Everyone has a certain level ofhoof.
Like that sounds a bit risky.
And now, with deep seat comingout, it's opening a.
It's opening a real remarkablePandora's box, for good or for
bad.
But I do feel like just havingthat optimistic mindset of one
(21:20):
of the actually it's funny, it'sthe tattoo that I have on my
arm.
I only have one tattoo and itwas as a kid.
My dad used to always quote aSocrates quote that said wisdom
begins in wonder.
So he passed along.
So I got that as a tribute, butit's a quote that I use a lot
and I impart to people a lot isthat true wisdom and true
understanding comes fromwondering what will this lead to
(21:41):
, and I feel like a mindset likethat I'm not trying to preach
that everyone should have thatmindset, but the idea that you
just open up and just be likewhat could this do?
Sure it might disrupt what I'mdoing today, but maybe what I'm
doing today, but maybe what I'mdoing today needs me to disrupt
this.
Maybe I can do so much more.
Maybe there's way more that Icould bring to this world than I
am right now.
I know that's taking a bit of aleap of faith and I know that is
(22:03):
scary for some people, but it'sthe reality.
We're going the sweat routes.
I'm sure there was the sameconversation happening when
electricity was first wired in,when the first plow got replaced
by the first John Deere tractor.
I'm sure there's a millionreasons why everyone thought
John Deere tractors were goingto kill the world.
And it doesn't.
Innovation does spur ondifferent things.
It opens new opportunities.
We are in a point of flux rightnow and a point of change.
(22:26):
But it's scary, but it's alsoexciting.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, and I think one of the quotes that I love that
kind of builds on exactly whatyou were saying.
I love the quote of that you'veshared here is the idea that to
be interesting, be interestedExactly, yeah, and and some of
the most interesting people thatI know are the ones that are
curious, the ones that want toturn over that rock, they want
to look that step further andask that extra question yeah,
(22:49):
and that curiosity I definitelyagree with you is something
that'll continue to set peopleforward and apart.
Yep, talking about theevolution of AI and what that
means in your ecosystem whatdoes that mean for Dynasoftware,
what does that mean for thework that you're doing?
And also, what does that meanfor the evolution of platforms
like ServiceNow?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, no AI.
So I just came back from Vegas,was at their global sales
kickoff and every conversationeither started or ended with AI.
It was that that is the topic.
Maybe that's an edit.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
We had some editing there, we're okay.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Where AI is really going to have a massive impact.
It is really going to shrinkthe development time and the
development effort to get thingsdone on ServiceNow.
Generative AI is really goingto change what used to take
hours or days to build that, tobuild that code, to build that
complete configuration down tovirtually seconds.
There is going to be a realshift.
I think that shift is going toaffect the partners a lot
(23:44):
Organizations that are buildingout large development centers in
Philippines or in India.
That workload might come down.
But what I'm also looking at itas if AI can do 40% of what's
happening right now by people,then there's 60% other stuff.
And again, if we take thatopening the aperture sort of
metaphor, if we're only lookingat the size of the development
(24:07):
opportunities as it is today,you take 40% away or 50% away
for AI.
That's disruptive, right.
That's going to really affectcertain people's livelihoods and
things like that.
That's only assuming that thebucket stays at 100%.
There's opportunities to growthis 10,000%.
So that's where I don't seethis going away.
This is only going to enhanceand it's going to make some of
(24:28):
these platforms that have alwayshad the promise to be truly
transformational but because ofhow heavy they were and how
complex they were to actuallydevelop on it held so much
innovation back.
I think we're at thatinflection point now where a lot
of those issues go awaysoftware plays than Guardrails
(24:52):
plays.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I would almost see that it would become more
important, because if theiteration time becomes quicker,
if the release times becomequicker, if the ability to
deploy whatever pops into yourhead becomes quicker, I would
argue that the role ofgovernance only increases as
well 100%, and what we're seeingis that customers are now also
having multiple streams ofdevelopments and that just
increases the opportunity or theneed to have governance.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
That much more we're also coming out with.
We launched a product calledPlatform Co-Pilot, which is our
Gen-AI product.
So we launched that knowledgelast year in Vegas.
It is gonna be commerciallyavailable in this Vegas or this
knowledge in May, and reallywhat we've done here is that
we've allowed the business, endusers I'm not saying someone
who's out in the field that'snever touched a computer in the
(25:34):
last 20 years, but the businessanalysts, the people that are
working with it and working withthe business to understand what
do we need to do to get thatnext level, the individuals that
have comprised those stories orcomprise those the documents of
here's what we need to do.
We can actually ingest that andoutright completely give the
configuration so not just thecode, not just the individual
(25:55):
components of it, but theentirety of the configuration,
which then can be pointed backto a service instance and it can
be deployed.
So, we have something that weare really excited about and
obviously it is going to be verydisruptive, and one of the
things you mentioned about goingto market.
Our whole focus as a small techcompany that makes product is
we really want to do this withpartners.
(26:15):
So my entire conversation hasreally been around helping other
of the GSIs and the serviceecosystem understand what it is
that we do from a guardrailsperspective and from the
platform co-pilot perspective,and then what they're doing is
they're building their programsand building their offerings
around guardrails and platformco-pilot.
So we see that as our sort ofpath market for the most part.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
And that makes a lot of sense too, because, you
mentioned it, the revenuestreams are shifting right and I
think that some of thosetraditional elements where
partners might have made theirmoney, that's shifting for
better or for worse, and thathappens, probably with or
without guardrails, yeah, andthe opportunity then to say,
okay, here we're replacing thiskind of scale component which is
what you're I'm talking aboutfrom the either, the overseas
(26:59):
development even if it'shappening here, like there,
these elements of scale arebeing less and less required and
the ability to have trueexpertise, the ability to solve
genuine problems, is reallyexciting.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
And where I see the I see a real shift happening as
well is that these GSIs like theDeloittes, the KPMGs, the
Accentures of the world.
They didn't start off astechnology companies.
They started off as auditorsand accountants and really
business people.
That's what these are.
They're 100% business-focusedorganizations.
Because of the complexity ofthese big enterprise platforms
that they've had, they've allhad to become experts in that
(27:34):
technology.
Where Gen AI is really taking abig piece out of that is that
all of that heavy technical workis actually going away.
For a lot of parts Now, thereally complex integrations AI
is probably not going to solvethat day one.
There's a lot of the traditionaldevelopment that is actually
going away.
And where I envision this goingis that the partner community
(27:55):
will become less focused onbecoming the technical gurus of
anyone practice, but reallybecoming business experts in
whatever it is their customer istrying to accomplish.
So I think we'll start seeingsome real and we already do.
Each one of the GSIs has a lotof specialization.
Okay, this is our energyvertical, this is our
manufacturing vertical, this isour aerospace vertical.
(28:17):
But I think we'll see more andmore of that because all of the
focus will be on businessoutcomes, not how we get there.
It is what we're going to getand that huge amount of
investment of the time, moneyand effort to do that
intermediary development isgoing to shrink a lot.
So those people will have to dosomething else and I think
(28:37):
it'll be more focused on thebusiness outcome part of it.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And so that deep specialization will become
increasingly more and moreimportant.
And I think there's always beenthis aspirational nature in the
technology and ecosystem to saywe're part of the business, we
want to be part of thosebusiness discussions right, and
there's always been thisaspiration to work alongside IT
but also with the rest of thebusiness.
And it sounds like, from yourperspective, some of these
(29:01):
shifts that are happening reallyenable that to start to take
shape and the technology isn'tanything that needs to be solved
for anymore.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Exactly, and in a lot of cases the technology was a
little bit of the inhibitor.
Sure, it could do all thethings that the business wants
to do.
When the business does theirrequirements, then there's like
a six-week or an eight-week or atwo-month gap in between
gathering of the information toeven like a first version of the
application.
The businesses change theirmind or there becomes a
disconnect.
So I think if with AI, theability to churn out these
(29:30):
business outcomes quickly anditerate as you go, we'll see
innovation that we've just neverseen before, like what took
customers years to do, we'll beable to do months.
And the closer that IT canbecome, sort of allies with the
business, then you're really inthat lockstep and that's where I
think you'll start to see thatinnovation exponentially go up.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Amazing, and so I think that.
Then, from your perspective,what does that do to the gaps
between the people that areinvesting and jumping both feet
into these pools versus the onesthat are a little bit more
timid and sitting behind?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So your example is are you thinking of customers?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, If we think about organizations that jump
full force into adopting some ofthese enterprise platforms,
adopt these new developmentcycles and jump both feet into
them, versus the ones that aresitting a little bit on the
sidelines and maybe they'regoing to stick with the
traditional way of doing things.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, I think that's going to be really like the
world of the have and the havenots the organizations that are
able to really go quickly.
And again, part of the storythat we talk about guardrails is
that in a lot of cases it's atrade-off If I want to go fast,
I know I'm going to break things, and or if I don't want to
break things, I'm going to goslow and I'm not going to need,
I'm not going to be worriedabout the business.
(30:42):
We have to help customers notmake that hard choice, because
you have to go fast, you have tobe safe and you have to save
money.
So it's that trifecta which, ina lot of cases, you can only do
two of the three.
Right, you can go fast andcheap, but you're not going to
get quality.
But now, with proper governance, that is going to be what
allows that no compromisedecision.
(31:04):
You can go fast, reduce riskand accelerate innovation at the
same time.
I might have lost my train ofthought a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
That's okay, yeah, and I actually have a follow-up
question to that.
So, in terms of the governanceside of things, when would you
recommend someone put in placesome of these governance
foundations?
Do they need to be a certainsize or scale or a certain
distance down the path?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
So, governance needs to be at the root of every
conversation, whether you'rebeen on the platform for 10
years or thinking about buyingit out of the gate, where we
typically fit.
And this is just based on ourbusiness model.
It's like the clients that wework with for organizations that
are at that million dollar ACBa year with ServiceNow.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
And just for the listeners ACB is Annual contract
value For organizations thatare spending $200,000 or
$300,000 on ServiceNow.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
The governance challenges that they have are
oftentimes managed manually.
You can do it yourself.
You have one developer, youhave a small team.
You don't necessarily need toinvest in a governance tool.
Once you get beyond that, onceyou have a development team,
once you have all thesedifferent tentacles, it becomes
a must-have.
Really, you can't do what youthink you can do without a
(32:06):
product like Guardrails, andwe're very fortunate.
We're really in a space thatthere isn't a lot of competition
.
There's other platforms, othertools that do individual pieces
of what Guardrails does, butnobody has that sort of that
end-to-end development infinityloop.
So we really play on all thoseaspects and our conversation is
not a technical one.
Our conversation is usually avery strategic one around.
(32:27):
You need to go fast withServiceNow because now that
you're spending so much money 10years ago, five years ago, even
big companies were onlyspending a million bucks.
Now these big companies arespending $20, $30, $40 million a
year.
Now, all of a sudden, the CFOstarts going.
That's a lot of money.
These are big numbers yeah, whatare we getting for this and are
(32:47):
we doing?
If I'm going to invest $40million here, is that there's
becoming more and more scrutinyand more and more awareness
around.
Hey, well, the service now hasgrown to.
Now, like sometimes inorganizations, their investment
in SAP is not that dissimilarthan their investment in
ServiceNow.
So it just becomes morecritically important to have
that foundational governance inplace, and it doesn't matter
(33:08):
what size you are.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So cost is obviously a huge part of this conversation
.
Servicenow is not a cheapplatform.
It's definitely.
You mentioned a Ferrari at thebeginning.
It has an incredible amount ofhorsepower, but how is the right
governance model helpingcustomers control their costs
outside of just theirdevelopment frameworks?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, and a lot of it is.
It really is.
It is around the developmentcost.
There's other aspects ofgovernance that say maybe
wouldn't be DevOps governanceBuying licensing for people who
would only maybe need to useServiceNow once a month.
That's where you got to make thedetermination Is it worth it
for me to license all thesepeople?
I think you will start seeing ashift from ServiceNow to make
(33:48):
some of the licensing a bit moreuser-friendly.
I think that as they've grownvery quickly, their price book
has grown equally as quickly andequally as complex, and I think
there's opportunity forServiceNow to maybe modify that
a little bit or streamline alittle bit to really help
customers.
Because one of the challengesis that customers will work for
years to get that valuerealization and then all of a
sudden there'll be anotherinflection point where they have
(34:10):
to buy a bunch more licensing.
So they're always chasing theirtail around value realization
and I think as the maturityhappens, you'll start to see
that sort of leveling out alittle bit.
So customers aren't alwayschasing that proverbial.
We want to get value out of theplatform.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
That makes sense, and so I'll zoom out a tiny bit
from ServiceNow specifically andmaybe focus on some of these
large enterprise platforms.
And, to your point, thesearen't a hundred dollar
investments.
These are things that are amillion, 2 million, a hundred
million dollars.
When you're going in, let's sayI'm a CIO of an organization
and I'm about to start thisnegotiation or the sales cycle
for some of these big items,what advice would you give
(34:47):
someone on the customer side tomake sure they're getting the
most value out of thatinteraction with that
organization?
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, and you know, like I've been on, I've been on
the on the the vendor side allthe time in those negotiations
and it is, it is and I and Ithink the I look back at the
organizations that I was I builtmy career around being the
advocate for my customer and Ithere are.
There are some individuals thattake a different tack, that,
like I'm the vendor and I'mgoing to get the maximum value
for my company.
(35:14):
But I've taken the approach thatif I can always wear my
customer's hat and always befocused on what they should be
asking of me, or if I was intheir role, what would I expect
my vendor to do?
I've always lived my.
I built my career around that,so we've never really had super
contentious negotiations.
But the organizations that Iwas able to do the most for were
the ones who were also openwith me.
(35:35):
And as much as I think a goodsales executive tries to be open
and tries to be earnest withtheir customer, if you can trust
your representative and you cantrust them, open up a little
bit.
Share with them what's going onFor good, bad or indifferent.
The more that they understandof your business, the more they
can basically create theiroffering back internally.
Customers may not realize butthere is so much negotiation
(35:56):
that happens on their behalfbehind the scenes and the way
that I would approachnegotiation was I'm your guy at
that table.
I need as much information andas knowledge as I can, and some
organizations are reluctant toshare that and I can understand
why.
But I think if we're trulylooking for partnerships we have
to be both willing to go intoit with eyes wide open and that
(36:17):
we know that we are going to beas candid and as open as
possible and but then also findthose people that you can
genuinely trust, that you knowthat, hey, this guy's got my
back, and I don't be afraid tocall people out and say I don't
feel this is accurate, like Iwant to know more about that.
I think that's that's wellwithin their rights to ask for
that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
I think that's amazing advice and those
relationships are so important.
These aren't you're not buyinga widget.
These are your account team andyour account reps and your
solutions architects, andthey're along with you for the
ride for a while.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, and I think, like there, there certainly have
been individuals that createthis, us and them contentious,
like it's a vendor versuscustomer.
I think that's the old way ofdoing things.
I think that's the oldmentality and I know there's
been lots of organizations thathave been burned by that old
mentality and they've ended upbuying things that they didn't
need and they ended up buyingthings that ended up being
shelfware, and we've all heardthe stories.
(37:07):
It's not pleasant at all.
I would just encourage allpeople on the customer side to
really get to know your vendorand you get to them as people
too, like they are truly justpeople they're working hard to
to provide for their family, asthey are, as you are for their
family.
So get to know them, build thattrust and build a relationship
beyond your rep, too.
Get to know the productmanagers, get to know the sales
(37:28):
leadership folks, because whenpush comes to shove, people want
to work with people who theylike working with and those
relationships are very key.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Incredible advice, Jeff.
I feel like we scratched thetip of the iceberg today, edit,
yeah, so I might just start that.
One Incredible advice.
Jeff, I feel like we justscratched the tip of the iceberg
today.
If someone wants to continuethis conversation with you, if
they want to learn more aboutyou or they want to learn more
about Dynasoftware, what's thebest way for them to get in
touch with you?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn.
I've got off of all my othersocial media platforms.
Linkedin tends to be the placethat I'm at.
Obviously, you can reach me onmy email.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I can put it.
I'll link to your LinkedIn inthe show notes here.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, yeah, and then I'd say just just message me on
LinkedIn or reach out throughthat and would love to carry on
the conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Amazing.
If you had one final piece ofadvice for people that are
listening today, what would thatbe?
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I think I've said it many times.
And then, if I was, there's abook that came out when I was
younger and it was basicallylike a how-to book for life, but
it was titled everything I needto know in life.
I learned in kindergarten andif you read a book like that, it
really just gets down to thefoundations of just being a good
person Do what you say, whatyou do, show up on time, be the
person that people can depend onand count on and be nice.
(38:39):
I think right now the worldneeds nice and we're in a bit of
a situation where anger andresentment and division seems to
be the rule of the day, and Ithink all of us should choose
the nice side and we'll getthrough all this and have a have
an awesome year.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I love it.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, Jeff.
This has been an absolutepleasure and I look forward to
continuing chatting some moreIndeed, awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
You bet.
What ServiceNow is talking about is our issue.
This is what we need to do.
There is going to be a realshift and then, when the
business goes holy, smokes likelet's really see what this can
do, because Welcome to Sell Methis Podcast, the show where we
break down the art and scienceof selling strategy and success.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Today we're diving into the world of ServiceNow
with Jeff Fosberg, a key playerat Dyna Software, a company
dedicated to helping businessesstreamline operations and
maximize the value of theirServiceNow investments.
Navigating big softwarepurchases can be overwhelming,
and getting real ROI from aplatform like ServiceNow
requires real decision, theright strategy and strong
(00:44):
governance.
That is exactly what we'reunpacking in today's episode.
So, whether you're consideringServiceNow, looking to optimize
your current implementation, orjust want to hear from an expert
in software solutions, thisepisode is packed with insights
you won't want to miss.
Let's get into it.
Jeff, welcome to the show, andwe're going to dive right into
things today.
Why don't you tell me a littlebit about yourself, your
(01:05):
background and what led you toyour role at Dyna Software?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, Thanks, Keith.
I really appreciate you havingme on.
We've known each other for along time so it's exciting to be
a part of what you're doing now.
Yeah, I guess a little bitabout myself.
I've been in the technologysales space for geez over 25
years, started off with GECapital and just progressed from
there being from inside salesto doing some very simple
solution consulting and then tomost of my career has been spent
(01:30):
in account management for largetech companies out of
California.
So it's been a great career upsand downs, like all things, but
all in all, the world of techsales has been really
fascinating and it's been that'sbeen a very good life.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, and so, without pumping up your ego too much,
like I feel like when you saythe name Jeff Vosburgh in
Calgary it's almost likesynonymous with ServiceNow.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, yeah, servicenow is certainly.
I had a really good stint withwith NetApp back in the day as
well, so I was there for aboutseven years.
But but really I think where mycareer flourished and really
where I found my footing wasreally in the ServiceNow
ecosystem.
So I was with ServiceNow forabout six years and then I
actually took a sort of a globalrole with Deloitte, doing an
alliance role with Deloitte andServiceNow and really been in
(02:14):
the ServiceNow ecosystem eversince and actually joined up
with two of my former customerswhen I was at ServiceNow.
So they ran the ServiceNowplatform at Shaw and they had
built this incredibleapplication called Guardrails.
So they ran the ServiceNowplatform at Shaw and they had
they'd built this incredibleapplication called Guardrails
and they had this company calledDynasoftware and about three
years ago, just the planetsaligned where we all it just
made sense for us to cometogether as a bigger team and
(02:35):
it's been a.
It's been a fun run.
We've we've expanded, we'vegrown, we've taken this, this,
this technology, to a globalaudience, which has been
fantastic for a small companyout of Calgary.
So it's been super, superexciting.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I'm super excited to dive into some questions, just
even around how you've grown theplatform, how you've grown your
business, but at a high level.
Obviously, there's a lotchanging in the technology space
.
Servicenow is a rapidlyevolving platform.
Guardrails is a rapidlyevolving platform.
What sets you apart in thisspace and really what's the
challenge you're looking tosolve?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, and it's.
It's a.
We really started off and I'llbe speaking on behalf of the
founders.
The reason that they builtGuardrails in the first place
was they recognize the immensepower that Guardrails that
ServiceNow itself as a platformhad.
The challenge was is that therewasn't a lot of gates or
measures in place in theplatform to really protect
customers from pardon theanalogy, but if you get too much
(03:29):
rope you likely can hangyourself, and a lot of
organizations really struggledwith that and they would
actually hold back innovation.
They would hold back on reallydriving business outcomes
because they were afraid of therisk that it would entail.
And it really became a bigissue for organizations that
were investing a ton of money inServiceNow because they
couldn't take advantage of allthe service they had to offer.
(03:49):
So they ended up spending,ultimately, more money than they
should have been spendingbecause they weren't getting the
outcomes.
So that's where Guardrailsreally had its birth was through
recognizing that this was amajor and a foundational
challenge that all organizationshave with respects to getting
value out of ServiceNow.
So Guardrails really helps them, as the name would suggest,
provide guardrails.
(04:10):
So you think of it as ServiceNowis that Ferrari of an
enterprise service managementplatform.
But if you don't have theproper measures in place, you're
pretty leery to take thatFerrari out of first gear.
You're going to go very slowlyand very methodically through
the winding mountain passes, but.
But if you put guardrails up,the metaphor holds that you can
take your foot off the clutch,pop it in second gear, third
(04:31):
gear, fourth gear.
Let's really see what this cando, because you don't have the
risk now of driving your car offthe cliff.
So, at a very sort ofmetaphorical level, that's what
guardrails is all about.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
All right, so we have a first ever on some of this
podcast, which is we've had amid-episode furniture swap.
And Jeff, do you have a newchair?
You're comfortable?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I feel better.
Yep, yep.
Okay, the slouching factor isbetter, so I can finally sit up
with better posture.
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
We're feeling good.
I feel like you might win theaward for tallest guest we've
had so far.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So far.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
But there's still many episodes left in the season
We'll see how that goes.
A large and exciting platformServiceNow is, but there's so
many directions thatorganizations can take it.
There's so many differentavenues and use cases.
If I'm a business owner and I'mstarting to think about taking
some of those leaps and evenevaluating is this platform
(05:21):
right for me?
From your experience, what aresome of those first steps that
they should take?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I think that it's a really good question, because I
think that one of the challengesof ServiceNow is because it is
so broadly powerful.
If you ask yourself canServiceNow do this?
The answer, invariably, willalways be yes.
I think you can alwaysguarantee that whatever use case
or whatever business process orwhatever workflow you have, yes
, it could go on, servicenow.
I think the question thatcustomers need to ask, though,
(05:46):
is should it so take the would,or could it do it and replace
that with should, and not to saythat you should navel, gaze
over and spend a ton of timeanalyzing, but really think
about where that core process is, where that core business
outcome you're looking for.
Does it belong in service now?
Does it make sense to be there?
I would argue that in mostcases, it probably does.
(06:08):
I just think there needs to besome awareness to how to do that
work properly.
Again, not to bring it back towhat Garfield is all about, but
that's really where we helpcustomers as well.
Is it?
A lot of times the CTO or theCIO, or even though the platform
owner recognizes the immensepower of what ServiceNow could
be, but they're very reluctantto open that kimono up to say
(06:28):
let's get multiple developmentstreams happening.
Let's get citizen developmenthappening.
Let's get distributeddevelopment, other partners on
the platform.
The challenge becomes reallymanaging the complexity of the
work that's happening in all thedifferent groups, and that fear
of that risk is probably one ofthe single biggest things that
holds customers back.
So I would say, before anycustomer makes a big investment
(06:48):
or takes the next step inservice, now really take a look
at your overall governance.
Understand.
Are we doing things the rightway?
Are we introducing technicaldebt that is going to come back
and bite us two years from now,three years from now?
Like most platforms, there'shuge upgrades that happen twice
a year.
So if you've created asituation where you're not able
to upgrade and you're missingall the new feature sets, you're
really spending a lot of moneyfor things that you're not using
(07:10):
.
So it becomes really criticalthat the customers take that
governance first perspective andthat's really where we spend
all of our time is just helpingreframe.
Like it's all well and goodthat you want to build this
massive castle or this massivecomplex with ServiceNow, but if
your foundation isn't rock solid, you're going to have problems.
So that's where we come in andhave that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I really love that you brought that up.
But one of the things that Ilove to say is that technology
is a great amplifier.
If you have a bad processor,you have a bad.
It's not going to magicallysolve those problems.
In fact, it's probably going tomake them worse.
Yeah, and it sounds like it'sthe same in this scenario, where
there's a lot of good that canbe done.
But if you have if you don't dothat the right work up front,
if you don't do the heavylifting up front, you can really
just amplify some bad thingsthat already existed or maybe
(07:53):
you didn't know existed withinyour organization.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
A hundred percent and a lot of organizations
recognize that they are creatingthis technical debt and they
are creating this sort of thisissue down the road and then it
becomes a huge problem.
It's this big issue that nowneeds to be resolved, whether
it's going back to Greenfieldtype initiative.
There's a lot of consultingorganizations that are pitching
and selling back to out of thebox, helping customers get back
there, and that's a huge expense.
(08:17):
And it's not just a hugeexpense in consulting too.
It's a huge expense in time.
When that project's happening,really nothing is going to
deliver to the business.
No one's doing massiveinnovation at the same time when
you're doing a back to back toout of the box.
So there's a real, there's areal deep value in that building
, that governance early on.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Is that some people, is that one of the challenges
that you see, where you getbrought in lots of where they've
maybe they've got reallyexcited.
They've opened the kimono, soto speak, and then all of a
sudden they've turned on allthese features.
They're not quite sure what'svaluable, what's not, what's
connected's not how it all tiestogether, and they just put up
their hand asking for help.
Is that?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, you know ServiceNow has become a really,
really powerful sales engine aswell.
They're known sort of the worldover for all the capabilities.
They have an incrediblytalented and in-depth sales team
to get the sales or to get theorganizations excited about what
ServiceNow can do.
And what's happening a lot oftimes now is that those
conversations are actuallyhappening outside of IT.
(09:12):
You know, ServiceNow is anamazing product for HR, amazing
platform for CSM, for customerservice management, for supply
chain management, even somefinance apps.
So those conversations arehappening in the business and
then when the business goes holysmokes like what ServiceNow is
talking about is our issue, thisis what we need to do they go
back to the ServiceNow team andthe ServiceNow team.
(09:32):
They're partially excited, butthey're also freaked out because
it's hard enough, as it is, tomaintain the risk posture.
And then the last thing theywant to do is throw on finance
or throw on HR if they don'thave that foundational sort of
governance in place.
And that's really where we seethe sort of the, the, the
(09:54):
dichotomy between customers.
Customers that that thatunderstand it can really um, put
folks on their governance.
They accelerate fastorganizations that don't.
It's, it's really.
It's simple as that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It sounds similar to security.
I've always said security.
Everyone always looks atsecurity as the re, the, the
reason you can't, the big nofactor.
I can't do security because ofX, y and Z, but I firmly believe
that with the right security,that's the reason you can do
things right.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Bingo and the three sort of value pillars that we
really focus on the reduction ofoperational overhead, the
elimination of development riskand accelerated innovation.
A lot of organizations, whenthey hear the word governance or
they hear something like thatthey immediately relate that to
well.
When they hear the wordgovernance or they hear
something like that, theyimmediately relate that to well.
That's going to slow me down,that's going to be in my way,
that's going to be negative, butit's exactly the opposite and I
(10:35):
think to your point, it's theenabler for innovation.
Once you have that in place,you then what used to take you a
day takes two hours.
So we really accelerate thatbecause now they have confidence
that every single piece ofdevelopment that's happening is
adhering to best practices ispart of the overall story, as
opposed to going rogue andcausing issues.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Especially with what you just mentioned too, around
how a lot of that innovation isbeing driven from not the IT
team but the business, andthere's all these different
modules that can be turned on.
And I won't name names, and I'msure when I mentioned this
story you'll probably knowexactly who it is but there was
one organization I worked withand IT was their smallest user
of service now, and I'm surethere's more than one case on
(11:17):
this one, but they used it in awhole bunch of elements of their
business very sophisticated, aton of automation, and their IT
was used as a ticketing system.
And I think that IT sometimesnow can turn into some of those
roadblocks that are slowing downthat innovation, because maybe
they understand the risksdifferently.
They're the ones that might beleft holding the bag at the end,
(11:38):
and so governance, as you'rementioning, can unlock them.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I think that that's exactly the scenario.
We've actually been veryfortunate.
We've got into most of thelarge Canadian banks.
We just brought in a couple ofUS banks just in December as
well, and the theme for all ofthem is so IT is where we're
going, like we actually becauseit is Guardrail sits on actually
a ServiceNow product that webuilt that's available in their
store.
So IT still has a massivelyimportant part in the
(12:04):
conversation we have.
But in large banks, what'shappening is that they're
looking at what they're spendingon ServiceNow, they're looking
at the demands their businesshas and they're quite quickly
realizing that there's a realbottleneck at IT, and so the
business is clamoring for newthings.
But IT's like we just we can'tthe way that we manage things
(12:24):
today.
We can't grow to what you needus to do.
So we have to think ofsomething different, and one of
the ways would be throwingbodies at it.
Right, hire 10 more people,hire a bunch of people to go
through all your developers code, really make sure that
everything is good.
Or you look for a tool, you lookfor a product that automates
that, that makes that happen.
So really the catalyst for usin the larger financial
institutions really is thatusing guardrails to unlock
(12:46):
distributed development, whetherthat's allowing the HR teams to
do their own development work,letting the supply chain folks
do their own work, or bring inmultiple partners.
Maybe there's a GSI that doessomething really well and then
they found a boutique partnerthat does something else really
well.
How do you have all of thoseplayers on your platform at the
same time without causingconflicts?
(13:06):
You need a tool.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And that's where we come in.
100%.
You bring up a good question aswell, even around the expertise
side of things.
So, with there being so manydifferent avenues that you can
take and utilize in the platform, I imagine that even selecting
the right partners for some ofthose niche skill sets opens up
a whole can of worms as well,and governance is one element to
(13:29):
making sure that, once you'vepicked the right people, that
they're able to stay in lockstep, they're able to adhere to what
you wanted them to do as abusiness.
But what about even taking astep before that and finding
those right partners?
How does a business even goabout finding the right fit for
their organization in that seaof ServiceNow partners?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Sorry about that.
I think that's a bit of a multi.
A lot of times the best partnerfor any particular job is the
partner that sort of aligns withwhere the customer currently is
.
There's big global GSIs andthen there's very small I'm
sorry, what's a GSI?
Just Global Service Integrator.
Okay, perfect, Sorry.
Global Systems Integrator.
(14:13):
So that would be like the KPMGs,the Deloittes, the Accentures,
the big guys, the real big ones,and really I think it's
alignment with what thebusiness's expectations are.
Every partner has greattechnical resources.
Every partner's got abilitiesgalore.
Where I think good projects andbad projects diverge is just
alignment to the overall outcomethat the client wants.
(14:35):
If there's a mismatch from thebeginning, there'll be a
mismatch at the end, and I wouldjust encourage organizations to
reach out and talk to theirfellow colleagues and other
organizations their experienceswith each of the different
partners.
Every partner's got tremendousstrengths and there's also areas
where each partner probablyisn't as strong.
So helping you can do your ownresearch and tap the market.
(14:56):
And there's lots of people thatwill be very happy to share that
feedback with them.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, I wasn't going to make you name names or
anything or pick your top threefavorites, but that's really
sage advice there.
So when you think aboutstarting to the scalability,
flexibility, the innovation ofthe platform, you're seeing some
of these changes come fromoutside of IT.
How are they mobilizing theorganization and having those
conversations to be able tothink about what's different?
(15:22):
Because I feel like thetechnical literacy is increasing
across the business butdepending on the organization,
there's still varying levels ofmaturity.
Like, how are you seeingorganizations tackle driving the
innovation of the platformforward?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
And it really does vary.
When I was at ServiceNow forsix years and it was always
fascinating to me in seeing oneorganization and again you got
to keep in mind every person whobuys ServiceNow buys the exact
same thing.
Your ITSM product is identicalto everyone else's, but there's
such an incredible variance interms of how well each customer
(15:56):
is doing with that platform.
Are they accelerating, are theygetting the value out of it or
are they struggling?
And the reality is that it hasnothing to do with the products,
because the product is the samething across the board.
It really does come down to theorganization's ability to
handle operate, ourorganizational change.
I think OCM, like organizationalchange management, is probably
(16:17):
the most under.
There's just not enoughimportance put on that.
You look at a lot of these bigscale transformations.
They don't live up to fullywhat they expected them to, and
my belief in my experience isthat it just came down to.
It wasn't sold properly to theindividual end users.
They didn't understand the fullvision.
(16:39):
And it's hard to do too.
These are mega platforms andthese business processes are
very large and complex, so itdoes take time to move the
needle.
I would say if, uh, you know,for any organization out there
that's considering growingservice now or really any
platform for that matter reallyhave a strong plan around your
OCM, getting your end users,getting the the you know, the
(17:01):
customers that you're servinghyped about what this technology
is going to mean for them aswell, and I think talking less
about the technology and moreabout the outcome is also
critically important.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I feel like everyone.
I don't want to say thetechnology is the easy solve,
but sometimes I feel like thetechnology is actually the
easiest part.
It's the people that are hardpart.
I read a study recently fromGartner that talked about I
think it was like 70% of thoseenterprise transformation
projects actually fail and Ithink it's for that exact reason
because people don't includethe end users, they don't
(17:32):
include their teams and theirpeople, and then they just have
this magic show almost wherethey just do this grand
unveiling and all of a sudden,here's your new platform.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
And I think it's going to become even more
pronounced with as AI becomesmore prevalent and more
ubiquitous across the entireworld.
Really, I think there's goingto be a lot of fear in that when
OCM fails is because people areafraid of something and they
whether it's intentional orwhether it's subliminal they're
not all in there and they're notgoing to put all their effort
in to make sure this project issuccessful.
(18:01):
And I feel that, with with howpowerful AI is becoming, I think
the fear factor of technologyis going to become that much
more, and I don't think that'sgoing to be what holds it back.
But I think that's going to bethe opportunity for
organizations to figure out howthey can put their own
employees' minds at ease.
These new technologies are nothere to replace you.
(18:23):
They're not here to put you outof a job.
They're here to enhance.
They're here to help us solvethe bigger problems faster.
But without proper managementand leadership, people's minds
will immediately go.
They're bringing this in tofire me and everything will fail
because of that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And I think people are latching onto some of those
headlines right when you seesome of the headlines and,
ironically, a lot of thoseshifts are in the technology
industry as well, but thenumbers are staggering.
So if you're talking to leadersabout some of these big
organizational changes, how areyou coaching them to make sure
that you're talking to leadersabout some of these big
organizational changes?
How are you coaching them tomake sure that they're going to
bring in their people along withthem rather than alienating
(19:00):
them and making them feel alittle bit afraid as they make
some of these shifts?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I would be overstating if I say I'm having
a lot of those conversations,like our product work, quite.
But we do have a lot ofconversations with the GSIs,
like with the Deloitte, theKPMGs of the world, because we
do have some very strongstrategic partnerships with them
and for them.
I'll just parrot back what Ihear them talking about.
It is their singular biggestfocus is how do we get the human
engaged, how do we make thishuman connection with this
(19:26):
technology, as opposed to havingpeople feeling alienated.
So I think a lot of it willjust be also like opening the
aperture of people's vision ofwhat their own roles are.
If you go to, if you go to workevery day and you get the
blinders on that this is what Ido and this is the value I bring
you will forever feel at riskbecause you're never opening
that, that aperture.
And I do think that's anopportunity for employees
(19:48):
because employee satisfactionhappens when you feel there's so
much I can influence, there'sso much I could do, there's a
lot of value that I can bring.
But if you're very focused andvery just myopic in your
thinking, there are going to betechnologies that will nip away
at that myopic vision.
Expanding that aperture isgoing to be a challenge for
(20:08):
organizations, but I think it'salso going to be very
inspirational.
I think we will see a littlebit of a.
There will be some shiftsPeople will leave organizations
and people will joinorganizations, but I think those
that will succeed and reallyflourish in this new AI world
are the ones that can lookbeyond the fear and look at this
as wow, this is incrediblypowerful stuff.
(20:29):
This is going to changeeverything for us.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, I know this is going to change everything for
us.
Yeah, no, and I think a lot ofthe people that understand the
technology have a little bit ofapprehension, but there's also
this incredible optimism aroundwhat can be delivered.
I know we're going off onto alittle bit of a rabbit hole here
, but is there a common fabricyou're seeing amongst these
people that have thataspirational view towards AI and
these people that are divinginto some of these really
(20:55):
exciting elements at the enduser level?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It's those that I think the ones that are, that
are inquisitive, that areexcited and who see the
potential.
They're also everyone'sreluctant.
Everyone has a certain level ofhoof.
Like that sounds a bit risky.
And now, with deep seat comingout, it's opening a.
It's opening a real remarkablePandora's box, for good or for
bad.
But I do feel like just havingthat optimistic mindset of one
(21:20):
of the actually it's funny, it'sthe tattoo that I have on my
arm.
I only have one tattoo and itwas as a kid.
My dad used to always quote aSocrates quote that said wisdom
begins in wonder.
So he passed along.
So I got that as a tribute, butit's a quote that I use a lot
and I impart to people a lot isthat true wisdom and true
understanding comes fromwondering what will this lead to
(21:41):
, and I feel like a mindset likethat I'm not trying to preach
that everyone should have thatmindset, but the idea that you
just open up and just be likewhat could this do?
Sure it might disrupt what I'mdoing today, but maybe what I'm
doing today, but maybe what I'mdoing today needs me to disrupt
this.
Maybe I can do so much more.
Maybe there's way more that Icould bring to this world than I
am right now.
I know that's taking a bit of aleap of faith and I know that is
(22:03):
scary for some people, but it'sthe reality.
We're going the sweat routes.
I'm sure there was the sameconversation happening when
electricity was first wired in,when the first plow got replaced
by the first John Deere tractor.
I'm sure there's a millionreasons why everyone thought
John Deere tractors were goingto kill the world.
And it doesn't.
Innovation does spur ondifferent things.
It opens new opportunities.
We are in a point of flux rightnow and a point of change.
(22:26):
But it's scary, but it's alsoexciting.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, and I think one of the quotes that I love that
kind of builds on exactly whatyou were saying.
I love the quote of that you'veshared here is the idea that to
be interesting, be interestedExactly, yeah, and and some of
the most interesting people thatI know are the ones that are
curious, the ones that want toturn over that rock, they want
to look that step further andask that extra question yeah,
(22:49):
and that curiosity I definitelyagree with you is something
that'll continue to set peopleforward and apart.
Yep, talking about theevolution of AI and what that
means in your ecosystem whatdoes that mean for Dynasoftware,
what does that mean for thework that you're doing?
And also, what does that meanfor the evolution of platforms
like ServiceNow?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, no AI.
So I just came back from Vegas,was at their global sales
kickoff and every conversationeither started or ended with AI.
It was that that is the topic.
Maybe that's an edit.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
We had some editing there, we're okay.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Where AI is really going to have a massive impact.
It is really going to shrinkthe development time and the
development effort to get thingsdone on ServiceNow.
Generative AI is really goingto change what used to take
hours or days to build that, tobuild that code, to build that
complete configuration down tovirtually seconds.
There is going to be a realshift.
I think that shift is going toaffect the partners a lot
(23:44):
Organizations that are buildingout large development centers in
Philippines or in India.
That workload might come down.
But what I'm also looking at itas if AI can do 40% of what's
happening right now by people,then there's 60% other stuff.
And again, if we take thatopening the aperture sort of
metaphor, if we're only lookingat the size of the development
(24:07):
opportunities as it is today,you take 40% away or 50% away
for AI.
That's disruptive, right.
That's going to really affectcertain people's livelihoods and
things like that.
That's only assuming that thebucket stays at 100%.
There's opportunities to growthis 10,000%.
So that's where I don't seethis going away.
This is only going to enhanceand it's going to make some of
(24:28):
these platforms that have alwayshad the promise to be truly
transformational but because ofhow heavy they were and how
complex they were to actuallydevelop on it held so much
innovation back.
I think we're at thatinflection point now where a lot
of those issues go awaysoftware plays than Guardrails
(24:52):
plays.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I would almost see that it would become more
important, because if theiteration time becomes quicker,
if the release times becomequicker, if the ability to
deploy whatever pops into yourhead becomes quicker, I would
argue that the role ofgovernance only increases as
well 100%, and what we're seeingis that customers are now also
having multiple streams ofdevelopments and that just
increases the opportunity or theneed to have governance.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
That much more we're also coming out with.
We launched a product calledPlatform Co-Pilot, which is our
Gen-AI product.
So we launched that knowledgelast year in Vegas.
It is gonna be commerciallyavailable in this Vegas or this
knowledge in May, and reallywhat we've done here is that
we've allowed the business, endusers I'm not saying someone
who's out in the field that'snever touched a computer in the
(25:34):
last 20 years, but the businessanalysts, the people that are
working with it and working withthe business to understand what
do we need to do to get thatnext level, the individuals that
have comprised those stories orcomprise those the documents of
here's what we need to do.
We can actually ingest that andoutright completely give the
configuration so not just thecode, not just the individual
(25:55):
components of it, but theentirety of the configuration,
which then can be pointed backto a service instance and it can
be deployed.
So, we have something that weare really excited about and
obviously it is going to be verydisruptive, and one of the
things you mentioned about goingto market.
Our whole focus as a small techcompany that makes product is
we really want to do this withpartners.
(26:15):
So my entire conversation hasreally been around helping other
of the GSIs and the serviceecosystem understand what it is
that we do from a guardrailsperspective and from the
platform co-pilot perspective,and then what they're doing is
they're building their programsand building their offerings
around guardrails and platformco-pilot.
So we see that as our sort ofpath market for the most part.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
And that makes a lot of sense too, because, you
mentioned it, the revenuestreams are shifting right and I
think that some of thosetraditional elements where
partners might have made theirmoney, that's shifting for
better or for worse, and thathappens, probably with or
without guardrails, yeah, andthe opportunity then to say,
okay, here we're replacing thiskind of scale component which is
what you're I'm talking aboutfrom the either, the overseas
(26:59):
development even if it'shappening here, like there,
these elements of scale arebeing less and less required and
the ability to have trueexpertise, the ability to solve
genuine problems, is reallyexciting.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
And where I see the I see a real shift happening as
well is that these GSIs like theDeloittes, the KPMGs, the
Accentures of the world.
They didn't start off astechnology companies.
They started off as auditorsand accountants and really
business people.
That's what these are.
They're 100% business-focusedorganizations.
Because of the complexity ofthese big enterprise platforms
that they've had, they've allhad to become experts in that
(27:34):
technology.
Where Gen AI is really taking abig piece out of that is that
all of that heavy technical workis actually going away.
For a lot of parts Now, thereally complex integrations AI
is probably not going to solvethat day one.
There's a lot of the traditionaldevelopment that is actually
going away.
And where I envision this goingis that the partner community
(27:55):
will become less focused onbecoming the technical gurus of
anyone practice, but reallybecoming business experts in
whatever it is their customer istrying to accomplish.
So I think we'll start seeingsome real and we already do.
Each one of the GSIs has a lotof specialization.
Okay, this is our energyvertical, this is our
manufacturing vertical, this isour aerospace vertical.
(28:17):
But I think we'll see more andmore of that because all of the
focus will be on businessoutcomes, not how we get there.
It is what we're going to getand that huge amount of
investment of the time, moneyand effort to do that
intermediary development isgoing to shrink a lot.
So those people will have to dosomething else and I think
(28:37):
it'll be more focused on thebusiness outcome part of it.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And so that deep specialization will become
increasingly more and moreimportant.
And I think there's always beenthis aspirational nature in the
technology and ecosystem to saywe're part of the business, we
want to be part of thosebusiness discussions right, and
there's always been thisaspiration to work alongside IT
but also with the rest of thebusiness.
And it sounds like, from yourperspective, some of these
(29:01):
shifts that are happening reallyenable that to start to take
shape and the technology isn'tanything that needs to be solved
for anymore.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Exactly, and in a lot of cases the technology was a
little bit of the inhibitor.
Sure, it could do all thethings that the business wants
to do.
When the business does theirrequirements, then there's like
a six-week or an eight-week or atwo-month gap in between
gathering of the information toeven like a first version of the
application.
The businesses change theirmind or there becomes a
disconnect.
So I think if with AI, theability to churn out these
(29:30):
business outcomes quickly anditerate as you go, we'll see
innovation that we've just neverseen before, like what took
customers years to do, we'll beable to do months.
And the closer that IT canbecome, sort of allies with the
business, then you're really inthat lockstep and that's where I
think you'll start to see thatinnovation exponentially go up.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Amazing, and so I think that.
Then, from your perspective,what does that do to the gaps
between the people that areinvesting and jumping both feet
into these pools versus the onesthat are a little bit more
timid and sitting behind?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So your example is are you thinking of customers?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, If we think about organizations that jump
full force into adopting some ofthese enterprise platforms,
adopt these new developmentcycles and jump both feet into
them, versus the ones that aresitting a little bit on the
sidelines and maybe they'regoing to stick with the
traditional way of doing things.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, I think that's going to be really like the
world of the have and the havenots the organizations that are
able to really go quickly.
And again, part of the storythat we talk about guardrails is
that in a lot of cases it's atrade-off If I want to go fast,
I know I'm going to break things, and or if I don't want to
break things, I'm going to goslow and I'm not going to need,
I'm not going to be worriedabout the business.
(30:42):
We have to help customers notmake that hard choice, because
you have to go fast, you have tobe safe and you have to save
money.
So it's that trifecta which, ina lot of cases, you can only do
two of the three.
Right, you can go fast andcheap, but you're not going to
get quality.
But now, with proper governance, that is going to be what
allows that no compromisedecision.
(31:04):
You can go fast, reduce riskand accelerate innovation at the
same time.
I might have lost my train ofthought a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
That's okay, yeah, and I actually have a follow-up
question to that.
So, in terms of the governanceside of things, when would you
recommend someone put in placesome of these governance
foundations?
Do they need to be a certainsize or scale or a certain
distance down the path?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
So, governance needs to be at the root of every
conversation, whether you'rebeen on the platform for 10
years or thinking about buyingit out of the gate, where we
typically fit.
And this is just based on ourbusiness model.
It's like the clients that wework with for organizations that
are at that million dollar ACBa year with ServiceNow.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
And just for the listeners ACB is Annual contract
value For organizations thatare spending $200,000 or
$300,000 on ServiceNow.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
The governance challenges that they have are
oftentimes managed manually.
You can do it yourself.
You have one developer, youhave a small team.
You don't necessarily need toinvest in a governance tool.
Once you get beyond that, onceyou have a development team,
once you have all thesedifferent tentacles, it becomes
a must-have.
Really, you can't do what youthink you can do without a
(32:06):
product like Guardrails, andwe're very fortunate.
We're really in a space thatthere isn't a lot of competition
.
There's other platforms, othertools that do individual pieces
of what Guardrails does, butnobody has that sort of that
end-to-end development infinityloop.
So we really play on all thoseaspects and our conversation is
not a technical one.
Our conversation is usually avery strategic one around.
(32:27):
You need to go fast withServiceNow because now that
you're spending so much money 10years ago, five years ago, even
big companies were onlyspending a million bucks.
Now these big companies arespending $20, $30, $40 million a
year.
Now, all of a sudden, the CFOstarts going.
That's a lot of money.
These are big numbers yeah, whatare we getting for this and are
(32:47):
we doing?
If I'm going to invest $40million here, is that there's
becoming more and more scrutinyand more and more awareness
around.
Hey, well, the service now hasgrown to.
Now, like sometimes inorganizations, their investment
in SAP is not that dissimilarthan their investment in
ServiceNow.
So it just becomes morecritically important to have
that foundational governance inplace, and it doesn't matter
(33:08):
what size you are.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
So cost is obviously a huge part of this conversation
.
Servicenow is not a cheapplatform.
It's definitely.
You mentioned a Ferrari at thebeginning.
It has an incredible amount ofhorsepower, but how is the right
governance model helpingcustomers control their costs
outside of just theirdevelopment frameworks?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, and a lot of it is.
It really is.
It is around the developmentcost.
There's other aspects ofgovernance that say maybe
wouldn't be DevOps governanceBuying licensing for people who
would only maybe need to useServiceNow once a month.
That's where you got to make thedetermination Is it worth it
for me to license all thesepeople?
I think you will start seeing ashift from ServiceNow to make
(33:48):
some of the licensing a bit moreuser-friendly.
I think that as they've grownvery quickly, their price book
has grown equally as quickly andequally as complex, and I think
there's opportunity forServiceNow to maybe modify that
a little bit or streamline alittle bit to really help
customers.
Because one of the challengesis that customers will work for
years to get that valuerealization and then all of a
sudden there'll be anotherinflection point where they have
(34:10):
to buy a bunch more licensing.
So they're always chasing theirtail around value realization
and I think as the maturityhappens, you'll start to see
that sort of leveling out alittle bit.
So customers aren't alwayschasing that proverbial.
We want to get value out of theplatform.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
That makes sense, and so I'll zoom out a tiny bit
from ServiceNow specifically andmaybe focus on some of these
large enterprise platforms.
And, to your point, thesearen't a hundred dollar
investments.
These are things that are amillion, 2 million, a hundred
million dollars.
When you're going in, let's sayI'm a CIO of an organization
and I'm about to start thisnegotiation or the sales cycle
for some of these big items,what advice would you give
(34:47):
someone on the customer side tomake sure they're getting the
most value out of thatinteraction with that
organization?
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, and you know, like I've been on, I've been on
the on the the vendor side allthe time in those negotiations
and it is, it is and I and Ithink the I look back at the
organizations that I was I builtmy career around being the
advocate for my customer and Ithere are.
There are some individuals thattake a different tack, that,
like I'm the vendor and I'mgoing to get the maximum value
for my company.
(35:14):
But I've taken the approach thatif I can always wear my
customer's hat and always befocused on what they should be
asking of me, or if I was intheir role, what would I expect
my vendor to do?
I've always lived my.
I built my career around that,so we've never really had super
contentious negotiations.
But the organizations that Iwas able to do the most for were
the ones who were also openwith me.
(35:35):
And as much as I think a goodsales executive tries to be open
and tries to be earnest withtheir customer, if you can trust
your representative and you cantrust them, open up a little
bit.
Share with them what's going onFor good, bad or indifferent.
The more that they understandof your business, the more they
can basically create theiroffering back internally.
Customers may not realize butthere is so much negotiation
(35:56):
that happens on their behalfbehind the scenes and the way
that I would approachnegotiation was I'm your guy at
that table.
I need as much information andas knowledge as I can, and some
organizations are reluctant toshare that and I can understand
why.
But I think if we're trulylooking for partnerships we have
to be both willing to go intoit with eyes wide open and that
(36:17):
we know that we are going to beas candid and as open as
possible and but then also findthose people that you can
genuinely trust, that you knowthat, hey, this guy's got my
back, and I don't be afraid tocall people out and say I don't
feel this is accurate, like Iwant to know more about that.
I think that's that's wellwithin their rights to ask for
that.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
I think that's amazing advice and those
relationships are so important.
These aren't you're not buyinga widget.
These are your account team andyour account reps and your
solutions architects, andthey're along with you for the
ride for a while.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, and I think, like there, there certainly have
been individuals that createthis, us and them contentious,
like it's a vendor versuscustomer.
I think that's the old way ofdoing things.
I think that's the oldmentality and I know there's
been lots of organizations thathave been burned by that old
mentality and they've ended upbuying things that they didn't
need and they ended up buyingthings that ended up being
shelfware, and we've all heardthe stories.
(37:07):
It's not pleasant at all.
I would just encourage allpeople on the customer side to
really get to know your vendorand you get to them as people
too, like they are truly justpeople they're working hard to
to provide for their family, asthey are, as you are for their
family.
So get to know them, build thattrust and build a relationship
beyond your rep, too.
Get to know the productmanagers, get to know the sales
(37:28):
leadership folks, because whenpush comes to shove, people want
to work with people who theylike working with and those
relationships are very key.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Incredible advice, Jeff.
I feel like we scratched thetip of the iceberg today, edit,
yeah, so I might just start that.
One Incredible advice.
Jeff, I feel like we justscratched the tip of the iceberg
today.
If someone wants to continuethis conversation with you, if
they want to learn more aboutyou or they want to learn more
about Dynasoftware, what's thebest way for them to get in
touch with you?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn.
I've got off of all my othersocial media platforms.
Linkedin tends to be the placethat I'm at.
Obviously, you can reach me onmy email.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I can put it.
I'll link to your LinkedIn inthe show notes here.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, yeah, and then I'd say just just message me on
LinkedIn or reach out throughthat and would love to carry on
the conversation.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Amazing.
If you had one final piece ofadvice for people that are
listening today, what would thatbe?
Speaker 1 (38:19):
I think I've said it many times.
And then, if I was, there's abook that came out when I was
younger and it was basicallylike a how-to book for life, but
it was titled everything I needto know in life.
I learned in kindergarten andif you read a book like that, it
really just gets down to thefoundations of just being a good
person Do what you say, whatyou do, show up on time, be the
person that people can depend onand count on and be nice.
(38:39):
I think right now the worldneeds nice and we're in a bit of
a situation where anger andresentment and division seems to
be the rule of the day, and Ithink all of us should choose
the nice side and we'll getthrough all this and have a have
an awesome year.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I love it.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, Jeff.
This has been an absolutepleasure and I look forward to
continuing chatting some moreIndeed, awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
You bet.
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