June 25, 2025 • 42 mins
What happens when fire meets ocean? In the aftermath of January's devastating fires that swept through Pacific Palisades and surrounding areas, the impacts stretched far beyond charred hillsides to affect even our coastal waters. Tracy Quinn, President and CEO of Heal the Bay, brings her unique perspective as both an environmental leader and someone whose home was impacted by the January fires in Los Angeles.
Quinn takes us behind the scenes of Heal the Bay's rapid response to the disaster. When scientists observed ash coating ocean surfaces up to 100 miles offshore, her team was among the first organizations permitted behind fire lines to collect water samples. What they discovered revealed a troubling gap in our disaster preparedness: "We don't have protocols for what to test for after a big urban fire," Quinn explains, highlighting how the science of post-fire water quality assessment is still evolving.
The conversation explores the complex relationship between resilience and adaptation. Rather than simply "bouncing back" to pre-disaster conditions, Quinn advocates for reimagining our communities to withstand climate change's intensifying threats. As a member of LA County's Blue Ribbon Commission on Climate Action and Fire-Safe Recovery, she's helping shape recommendations for more resilient water systems, innovative stormwater management, and sustainable rebuilding approaches. (Make sure to check out the Commission's report findings HERE).
Most poignantly, Quinn shares her personal journey of displacement while simultaneously leading her organization's emergency response. Despite tremendous loss, she finds hope in how communities have come together, creating support networks that filled gaps left by unprepared government systems. "I haven't felt alone through this process," she reflects, "and I feel so much closer to my community than I did before the fires."
This episode offers vital insights for anyone concerned about environmental resilience, disaster recovery, and the power of community in crisis. Subscribe to Shared Ground for more conversations exploring how we navigate challenges and build stronger communities together.
Shared Ground is produced by Sean Knierim and Allan Marks. Thanks to Cory Grabow, Kara Poltor, Corey Walles (from The Recording Studio) for your support in launching this effort.
For more stories of resilience & rebuilding, kindness & generosity: visit shared-ground.com and subscribe to Sean's substack. We invite you to share your own stories of resilience at the Shared Ground website - whether in response to the January fires in LA or other situations.
Follow us at seanknierim.substack.com, Instagram, or wherever you listen to podcasts (Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sean Knierim (00:00):
This is Shared Ground, a podcast about
resilience and community.
I'm Alan Marks and I'm SeanKnierim.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're joined here today by apublic servant, someone we've
really looked up to for years,Tracy Quinn.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us.
Would you mind introducingyourself?
Who are you?
Who are you bringing to ustoday?
Tracy Quinn (00:20):
Sure, I'm Tracy Quinn.
I'm the president and CEO ofHeal the Bay, which is a
40-year-old nonprofit based inSanta Monica that is working to
protect and restore the coastalwaters of greater Los Angeles.
Allan Marks (00:31):
Thank you so much.
Your background, too, is the LADepartment of Water and Power
and Metropolitan Water District,and you've dealt with so many
agencies around the city beforeyour work and even still now
overlapping with your work withHeal the Bay, in all of those
contexts, agencies, nonprofits,not just communities need to be
(00:52):
resilient too.
Tracy Quinn (00:52):
What is resilience to you?
It's so funny to ask thatquestion because so much of my
professional life has been abouttrying to make communities more
resilient, but I still find itsuch a difficult word to define,
I think.
In the simplest terms, I thinkof it as the ability to bounce
back after threat or damage, andit's challenging because you're
thinking about that withcommunities, with people, with
coastlines, with infrastructure.
(01:12):
All of this needs to beresilient, and I think that you
can drill down to really justhow can it bounce back after
something is impacting it.
Sean Knierim (01:20):
Yeah, can I ask you a question about the verb
that you use, so bouncing back?
Yeah, can I ask you a questionabout the verb that you use, so
bouncing back?
So that's assuming that we'rebouncing back to where we were
before.
As we think about what we'vecome through in Los Angeles with
the fires over the last fewyears, I'm not sure if we can
bounce back to where we were.
We're bouncing you, and thosethreats are changing and
evolving.
Tracy Quinn (01:47):
And so I think, when we think about the fires,
we don't want to just build backthe communities that we had
before, because climate changeis bringing additional threats
and we need to think about howwe can be more resilient, how we
can be prepared to adapt to achanging environment.
Allan Marks (02:00):
Let me stay with that for a second because that
is interesting.
We talk about bouncing forwardversus bouncing back, for that
kind of in the literature onesees it, adaptation, which is
sort of an environmental concept, is really kind of different.
And you're right to sayresilience is bouncing back.
That is actually theetymological origin of the word
from Latin.
But adaptation is sort ofsaying we're going to have to do
something differently becausethe conditions have changed, the
(02:22):
context of change.
If humans are still emittinggreenhouse gases and we have
climate change and thereforeextreme weather risk change and
coastal erosion happens and wehave more fire risk and so forth
, then to adapt means we have todo things differently than
we've done before, not merelycome back to where we were.
Tracy Quinn (02:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think how you adaptis going to change over time in
order to keep you resilient.
So I think that you know thisis something that we need to
think about in all the ways inwhich our communities are
changing.
Extreme heat, flood, drought,beach erosion, sea level rise,
ocean acidification these areall things that are happening in
Los Angeles that are changingover time because of a changing
(02:58):
climate.
Allan Marks (02:59):
I asked you about the ocean in particular because
after the fires I could walkalong the bluff in Santa Monica
and you look at that gorgeousview toward Malibu and across
the bay with, unfortunately, thePalisades, is just gaping brown
gap on the right-hand side.
The other thing that I noticedis the blue water, or the blue
green water as it comes close tothe beach.
In those days it was still verybrown and the waves were yellow
(03:19):
.
They weren't white and thebeaches were closed.
Now they've reopened.
Can you tell us a bit from yourexpertise about the water
quality and how that's impactedby wildfires?
Tracy Quinn (03:28):
This is, you know, something that there hasn't been
a ton of research on, and sowe're learning a lot, as we're,
you know, delving into researchand doing testing ourselves.
But during the fires, therehappened to be some scientists
that were offshore and theyobserved ash coating the ocean
surface up to 100 miles offshore.
So we had the ash depositionthat was contaminating,
polluting our ocean.
And then, as we think about it,our storm drains are all
(03:50):
connected to the ocean.
So, no matter where you are ingreater Los Angeles, from Summit
to Sea, all of that stormwater,all of that urban runoff,
anytime you wash your car, allof that is flowing out to the
ocean.
So, as our firefighters were inthe hills spraying down homes,
spraying fire retardant, all ofthat was being washed into our
storm drain system and then outinto the ocean.
So that may be what you wereobserving when you saw a change
(04:12):
in the color.
Allan Marks (04:13):
So staying with that for a moment.
I mean looking at the ocean andocean quality.
What should be done, what wouldmake that situation better?
To know exactly what's going on, of course, you have monitoring
systems in place and so forth,but in order to make us more
aware of what's happening in theenvironment and then fix it.
Tracy Quinn (04:32):
Yeah, I think for the urbanized areas, and that's
where we're really concernedabout the threats from things
like burned electric cars andeverything in our home these
days is made from plastic andall of that is going to burn and
flow to the ocean.
So I think, in our residentialneighborhoods and our more
urbanized neighborhoods, reallyensuring that we are capturing
stormwater and then, when weneed to, are diverting that to a
sewer system instead of havingthat go out to the ocean.
Even before the fire,stormwater was the number one
(04:53):
source of pollution to ourcoastal waters here in Los
Angeles.
But something like a fire thatis going to bring additional
contaminants, things that aretoxic to both human and marine
health we want to be betterprepared for, so being able to
capture that water before itgets to the storm drain.
That can be things like havingproactive measures on hand,
having LA Sanitation and LACounty Public Works be ready to
(05:13):
deploy things like filtrationsocks, but what I hope it means
is that in the long term, we arebuilding this into our
infrastructure so that thatstormwater, that polluted water,
isn't making it out out to thebay.
Sean Knierim (05:23):
So, tracy, with Heal the Bay, you were doing a
lot of this work before January2025.
But then these events occur inclose to where you live
personally, where yourorganization is kind of based.
What did you learn about yourorganization?
Were you ready for this, orwhat did Heal the Bay have to do
to adapt itself or to bounceback itself from these fires?
Tracy Quinn (05:50):
Yeah, I mean I think this was a really a
growing moment for Heal the Bay.
We have 40 years of history ofdoing water quality testing and
even, maybe more importantly,translating really wonky water
quality data into an easy way tounderstand for the public, so
that the public can really takeownership of their own health
and know when and where it'ssafe to swim, whether you're in
a river or out in the ocean, andthat uniquely positioned us to
be able to go out and to do thesampling ourselves.
So one of the things I'm soproud of the staff is that they
(06:10):
got to work right away.
They could see what youobserved as well with the ash
deposition and the potentialissues with water quality, and
they put together a samplingplan and a protocol.
Heal the Bay was one of thefirst nonprofits invited behind
the fire lines to understandwhat was happening, and so we
were able to be escorted withinthe burn zone and we did water
quality sampling up north of theburn area in Malibu five
(06:32):
different places within the burnzone and then south as far as
Malaga Cove down in Palos Verdes, to really be able to get that
spatial distribution of what washappening and, I think, what
was so challenging about beingimpacted by this is you feel so
helpless and it was really greatto be a part of an organization
that could immediately get towork and to take action to help
(06:53):
our community and help protectthis beautiful coastline.
That, I think, is the reasonthat a lot of us love living
here so much.
Sean Knierim (06:58):
Can you share a little bit about leading an
organization that is groundedand based in a place that had
just come through a prettytremendous shock and now you're
going behind fire lines firelines which included where you
were living before the fires.
Right, what was it like leadingthe humans that had to do this
work?
We'll talk about the systemsand the work itself, but the
people you were leading that hadto be affected, going across
(07:20):
those lines Any reflectionsthere as a leader?
Tracy Quinn (07:23):
It's tough to say as a leader.
What I can say is, you know, wetalked about resilience, the
fact that my staff was soincredibly resilient, and I
think people who elect to workin the nonprofit space, who
elect to work at an organizationthat's providing a service to
the community, I think, arenaturally inclined to want to
help.
So to see everyone in everydepartment.
You know we run the aquariumunderneath the Santa Monica Pier
(07:43):
.
Our staff opened that up tofamilies that were impacted by
the fire so that they had a safeplace to drop off their kids.
Their kids would be distractedwith baby sharks and petting
other sea cucumbers and such, sothat they could go to the
disaster recovery center andstart dealing with trying to
find housing and what they weregoing to do.
From every element of theentire organization came
together and said how can wehelp, how can we be there for
(08:03):
our community?
And I think, just being able tosit back, I mean to some degree
I was kind of dealing withwhere am I going to live, and
the staff really rose up to theoccasion and met the moment and
that was.
I'm just in awe of them.
Sean Knierim (08:16):
Can you talk about your own personal experience of
January 5th January 6th whenwere you?
What happened?
Tell us your own personaljourney to get here.
Tracy Quinn (08:25):
Yeah, I was in Antarctica when the fires broke
out.
I had been invited to lectureon ocean health and heal the
bay's work to a group on anexpedition boat in Antarctica.
It was the trip of a lifetimeand something that I had been
very much looking forward to,and we had and now you'll never
forget it, and now I will.
Sean Knierim (08:41):
That sounds wonderful, but yes.
Tracy Quinn (08:43):
And so we had just finished crossing the Drake's
Passage and had opened to ourfirst day in Antarctica.
When I learned of the fires inthe Pacific Palisades, I started
getting a flurry of textmessages.
I hadn't planned to purchase aninternet plan on the boat.
That changed quite quickly whenI learned that my home was
being threatened and certainlythat the majority of the
community that I had grown tolove so much was being severely
(09:04):
impacted and destroyed.
Allan Marks (09:06):
And you're still out of your home, which,
physically, is intact, butyou're not able to return yet.
Tracy Quinn (09:11):
Yeah, I feel incredibly lucky.
I live in a condo in theHighlands and when you look at
the fire map there's that littlehole that kind of got missed by
the fire.
The fire burned on all foursides of our community but we
were spared, so we do have smokedamage.
I had a window open and someonevery kindly went into my home
when it was still under threatand rescued my family photo
(09:33):
albums.
So some ash came in the frontdoor when they came in, but the
structure is sound and I'll beable to move back potentially
later this summer.
Allan Marks (09:41):
Pause on that for a moment because the impact the
emotional impact, of hearing yousay that your photo albums were
saved by a neighbor.
That's pretty amazing for afriend.
It also says something aboutthe social networks that someone
could do that for you and be intouch with you.
Tracy Quinn (09:55):
Yeah, I mean I'm very grateful.
I reached out to CouncilwomanTracy Park I had heard that she
and her staff were behind thefire lines and were able to get
in and I kind of threw a HailMary and said you know, is there
anyone there that can go in?
At Christmas, my mom haddecided I would be the keeper of
all of the family albums and soI had just gotten them.
Two weeks later my home wasunder threat.
(10:17):
So they very kindly went in andgrabbed some things for me and
kept them at their office untilI was able to pick them up.
But you know, I think that Iwas in communication with my
neighbors.
They were giving me real-timeupdates about what was happening
, so I was trying to stayabreast of what was happening,
and the community was so goodabout keeping each other
informed.
Sean Knierim (10:33):
That's wonderful.
So in the subsequent months,what have you learned about
yourself, about taking care ofyourself, coming through this
type of an experience, because Iimagine that has to inform how
you're serving the organizationyou're part of and some of the
wider leadership roles that youhave here in this community.
But for yourself and takingcare of yourself, coming out,
what have you learned?
What have you done?
How are you able to do the kindof work you're doing in service
(10:53):
to others?
Tracy Quinn (10:54):
I mean, I don't think I'm a great example of how
to take care of yourself,necessarily Tell us what to
avoid.
Allan Marks (10:59):
Tracy.
Tracy Quinn (11:01):
I mean, I've really thrown myself into work.
My work has always been, youknow, I'm very lucky to have a
job that I'm passionate about,and this is a place where we
could really step up.
I also, you know, because of myconnections to decision makers
and elected officials.
Through my job, I've been ableto work with the community and
help them to get their needs met, their concerns, to the right
folks.
I think one of the thingsthat's been so incredible about
(11:22):
this is how the community hascome together.
In the early days, so manyWhatsApp chats popped up and I'm
still on several of them.
I get dozens of messages a daythat folks are communicating
about the things that arehappening with them
(11:49):
no-transcript health and safetyand moving back and a lot more
questions about working with ourinsurance.
There are no protocols for.
Should you get tested forthings like heavy metals in your
home or VOCs?
What does that look like?
How much should it cost?
Do you do it before remediationor after?
So there was experts in thecommunity.
(12:09):
And then what the heck are yougoing to do with the answers
that come back If you're all?
Allan Marks (12:14):
required to be disclosed if you decide you
can't go back and need to sellthe property.
Tracy Quinn (12:17):
We are really grateful that we have some
incredible experts in thecommunity that came together to
kind of figure out what are thebest plans, and we did webinars.
There was a man, larry Vane,who he's part of Pally Strong,
and put together this series ofwebinars for folks to be able to
better understand, and so I wasable to participate in one of
those on the health of goingback to the community.
Sean Knierim (12:35):
So it seems like part of the answer in how you
took care of yourself was byjumping in and being active in
service to others as you figureout how to take care of yourself
.
Is that fair?
Tracy Quinn (12:44):
Yeah, I think so.
I like to stay busy in times ofcrisis, and this really
provided an opportunity to dothat.
Allan Marks (12:50):
Sean, does that resonate?
Sean Knierim (12:51):
for you?
It certainly does.
Alan says this if you're notwatching this on video, he has a
slight like caring, I hope,smirk on his face.
Allan Marks (12:58):
It is caring.
It's a smirk, but it's caring.
It's a caring smirk, yes.
Sean Knierim (13:01):
I don't know.
Do you think I have taken?
I do, because what?
Allan Marks (13:03):
I've seen you in one of the ways you've reacted
outwardly anyway, and we'vetalked obviously a lot about
these things but one of the waysyou've dealt with this is by
kind of redoubling andchanneling into care for others,
starting with family of course,but radiating out and seeing
you do that, seeing you you knowTracy seeing others, that's
kind of a remarkable thing tosee so many people with that
(13:26):
response.
Sean Knierim (13:27):
We had a guest, dan Dorkus, on here, who works
with high performing communitiesand works on performance hard
situations, and he talks aboutthe common things we know to
take care of ourselves.
So sleep a little bit more, getsome more water, some good food
, some more activity, be aroundothers, but like mindfulness,
meditation, prayer if that'spart of your world and I find in
these moments of unsettlingtimes that sitting still with my
(13:49):
thoughts and reflecting is ascary thing Then moving and
moving in a way Is it?
scarier than it was before foryou.
I have waves now.
Two weeks ago it was probablymore emotional for me than the
week after we lost our home.
Now I feel pretty solid.
I haven't cried today but Iknow that could come back and I
think staying in motion is andthis has always been for me in
my life like meditation.
(14:09):
In motion is the way that I'vebeen able to get to a mindful
state and that's usually throughsome kind of physical activity
where, if I lose focus,something's going to happen.
But I think that also reflectsin the work.
The way you're talking abouthow you threw yourself into this
Tracy absolutely resonates, andTracy for you.
Tracy Quinn (14:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm naturally inclined to
stay busy.
I may be a workaholic, you know, before I was at Heal the Bay,
I was at the Natural ResourcesDefense Council lobbying, sort
of being the only one fighting400 industry folks that were,
you know, clashing all the time.
And that takes a lot of effortand a lot of time, and I'm very
passionate about what I do andso it was very easy to slide
(14:44):
into.
How do I use this knowledge andhow do I use the expertise of
my organization to be to makethis better?
And I think that that is kindof how I'm dealing with a little
bit of the trauma.
I also I have a lot of troublewith the quiet moments.
I've been back to the communityseveral times and I find it
really hard.
The pictures are just so verydifferent than being in it and
smelling it and tasting it, andit's just a very different
(15:07):
experience.
Allan Marks (15:08):
And so Toxins are a little more real.
Tracy Quinn (15:12):
I'm sure that there will come a time where there's
a moment to step back and be alittle bit more mindful.
I try to do some walks in themorning, especially now that my
current housing situation isnear the beach, and go for some
walks Even most of that.
I'm planning out my day andfiguring out what I need to do.
Allan Marks (15:26):
Let me ask you then if you can imagine the
emotional response when, severalmonths or years from now let's
say a year and a half you'reable to go back maybe sooner to
a home but it's your home andit's been cleaned up and you can
put the photo albums back onthe shelf but you're coming back
to a neighborhood thatotherwise looks a lot like a
charred lunar landscape.
Businesses aren't back, themarket's not there, it's not the
same anyway, even if it is, butit probably won't be in that
(15:47):
time period and your island ofneighbors half of them aren't
coming back perhaps.
How is that going to feel?
Tracy Quinn (16:00):
I think about that a lot.
I love living there.
I mean, I saved for 25 years tobuy my first condo and the only
reason I was even able to buyit was that my father passed
away and I sold his townhome andwas able to put a down payment
on a condo.
And I loved every moment ofliving in the Highlands and the
Palisades.
And I'm terrified of going back, I think, even though I wasn't
there, and I can't imagine whatit's like for the people who
were there and had to escape,and the stories that I've heard
(16:20):
from my neighbors.
During the fires I was textingwith a neighbor who was told to
shelter in place because thefire was blocking both exits,
and I know that that will alwaysbe in the back of my mind.
So I am.
I population starts to comeback, that one that it maintains
that beautiful community spiritthat we had before, but that we
(16:42):
settle into the new normal ofliving in this version of the
Palisades.
Sean Knierim (16:46):
Yeah, so you have both chosen to, and been
selected to join a leadershipgroup in the LA area.
The Blue Ribbon Commissionfocused on the rebuilding.
Allan Marks (16:55):
And just to give her context, because not
everybody listening to this is.
You know, from here, the LACounty Board of Supervisors
Lindsay Horvath, in particular,a supervisor, along with Leo
Frank, who's the new head ofUCLA, put together a commission
which you're on, which is, Imean, they call it Blue Ribbon
and it is just a stellar, likeoutstanding, group of people and
leaders in the community thatare looking at fire recovery in
(17:17):
ways that are sustainable andresilient, in particular.
Sean Knierim (17:19):
Thanks, alan, for giving that context Tracy, as
being part of this and thinkingabout that bridge of your own
personal connection to communityand the community that you hope
to be able to establish.
How has your role on thiscommission, how has that been
affected by these thoughts youhave for the community that you
had and that you want to havewhen you get back into the home?
Tracy Quinn (17:38):
Yeah, I mean I think, Alan, you spoke to the
incredible expertise on thisBlue Ribbon Commission and I'm
so honored to be a part of it.
I started my career as a civilengineer doing water and
wastewater infrastructure design, and so I'm excited to be able
to engage in that area, but I'malso the only person from the
(18:00):
Palisades that was impacted.
That is a part of this group, soable to bring some of the
experiences and some of theconcerns from the community into
the conversation as we thinkabout the types of
recommendations that we want tomake and what the community is
looking for in therecommendations that we make.
So we're tasked with, as younoted, not only thinking about
how can we be sure that thiscommunity is built back in a way
that is fire resilient, so thatwe don't see this type of
devastation again, but also howdo we use this opportunity to
rebuild communities in LosAngeles in a way that is more
(18:24):
resilient to the impacts ofclimate change?
So how are we thinking aboutextreme heat and flood and
drought and all of the otherways in which we may be impacted
by climate, and how do we buildthat into these communities to
make them more resilient andalso provide other benefits.
How do we make sure there'smore green space?
How do we make sure there'sredundant water supplies, so
homeowners aren't pulling fromthe same system as our
(18:44):
firefighters?
So it's a really interestingway to approach rebuilding and
making recommendations for whatthese communities are going to
look like in the future.
Allan Marks (18:53):
I read there's the interim, or at least initial
preliminary report that came out, which was very impressive,
long, detailed, concise in itsindividual sections.
And I was struck because I meanobviously Altadena, which is
the Eaton Canyon fire.
It was an unincorporated LosAngeles county, pacific
Palisades is in the city of LosAngeles, so different
jurisdictional, but was stillwithin the greater county of LA.
And when I looked at thepreliminary discussion there was
(19:15):
also a point made about lessonsthat can be learned so that
other areas of the county thathave not burned can also be
hardened in a way.
Now there wasn't a lot on landuse, which of course is a
critically important part ofthis in dealing with climate
risks and weather and so forthanyway, but it was very
interesting to see that.
How much attention will begiven, do you think, to
improvements that would berecommended either in building
(19:37):
codes, code enforcement, landuse and other things you know
countywide?
Tracy Quinn (19:41):
I think you'll see several recommendations that are
looking beyond the areas thatwere directly impacted by these
fires.
When we look at the new mapsthat were released about where
the vulnerable areas are, itextended far beyond the areas
that burned in January, and sothe recommendations are going to
be looking at things likebuilding codes, but also what
does retrofitting look like?
How do we make these changes inthese built environments where
(20:01):
you're not getting to start fromscratch again?
What kind of things can we dothere?
And so you're going to see alot of that in the report next
week.
Allan Marks (20:06):
And is your expectation that it's
financially possible to do thatin a way that brings back
insurability to a lot of thosenow expanded zone of wildfire
risk or fire risk areas shouldsay areas or is it something
that will require more severeadaptation from a land use?
Tracy Quinn (20:22):
perspective, insurability was a big part of
the conversations that we had asa part of this commission.
There were several work groupsthat were looking at a number of
different issues, but that wassomething that came up quite
often in a lot of the differentwork groups and when we came
together as a larger group.
So making sure that ourcommunities, that we, can
continue to have insurance, isgoing to be really important.
So you'll see a lot ofrecommendations that are trying
(20:42):
to directly address that, and wewere very lucky to have
insurance experts on this BlueRibbon Commission that could
help to provide informationabout what insurance companies
are going to be looking for,what their constraints are and
how we can help to adapt, movingforward.
Sean Knierim (20:55):
So you're sitting on this commission with a bunch
of long-term lifetime publicservants, extraordinary people
You're taking on informationflows from across.
Two have expected if someoneasked you what you were going to
run into in January, what arethe pieces of this time for you,
(21:25):
working on the commission thatyou're going to remember in 10,
15 years and look back God, Inever thought about that.
Anything comes to mind.
Tracy Quinn (21:30):
I learned so much as a part of this commission.
We have experts that have goneinto disaster areas all across
the world that are bringingtheir expertise from tsunamis
and floods and hurricanes andtornadoes and all across the
world that are bringing theirexpertise from tsunamis and
floods and hurricanes andtornadoes and all of the
different disasters that areexperienced on this planet and
what the best practices were inother parts of the world.
I'm struggling to think of aparticular example.
I think I learned a lot moreabout insurance than I ever
(21:52):
thought I would ever need toknow.
When I bought my home, theytold me that I needed insurance
to close and I said OK, and andI got insurance and I don't
think I really read the policy.
But learning so much more aboutthe how insurance companies
function in California, that hasbeen a huge learning curve for
me and sort of what they'refacing when they're thinking
about insuring Californians andyou know when you know that's
(22:15):
changing on a weekly, monthlybasis right now.
Absolutely.
I mean, when you think aboutyou know the risk that they're
thinking about when they go intoa neighborhood, learning that
you know they may not want toinsure a single company, may not
want to insure more than acouple homes on a block in a
fire-prone community, You'rethinking, well, gosh, you know,
there were nearly 7,000 homesthat burned in the Palisades,
over 9,000 in the Eaton fires,and there's only a handful of
(22:37):
companies operating.
Where are we all going to findthis insurance?
Or are we going to have to relyon the California Fair Plan?
And then there's risk there.
So that, I think, was a hugelearning curve for me.
Allan Marks (22:45):
Well, and Fair Plan once you get passed a
reinsurance which is billions ofdollars, right, you then get
stuck with it going back to theinsurance companies, which means
they have to.
That gets very expensive veryquickly for kind of everybody.
It'll be interesting to me tosee, by the way, how it's
different between Altadena andPacific Palisades, because in
(23:06):
the Palisades, because thesource of ignition is unknown
and probably not related toutility equipment, basically a
natural disaster, like a lot ofwildfires that are adjacent to
cities, in Altadena there may bethat nexus to Southern Comfort
Edison.
That brings in our inversecondemnation statutes which,
like the PG&E experience inNorthern California, means that
there could be a pool of fundingthrough utilities and rates and
(23:27):
the wildfire insurance fundsthat were set up in the wake of
the PG&E bankruptcy at the statelevel.
So there's very differentsources of capital for
rebuilding or liability coveragein those two communities, even
though what actually happenedthere was not that different.
Tracy Quinn (23:41):
That reminds me of another thing that I learned
that I found really fascinatingwas the types of programs that
are typically available after adisaster like this, and the type
of funding that is usuallycoming from the federal
government and various federalprograms that is not available
this time around and may not beavailable for future disasters.
And so how can states becomemore robust?
I think you know there's aninnovative idea that is coming
(24:03):
out of this with a resiliencyfund, and I think that the LA
County supervisors areconsidering a motion on that
sometime in the near term and, Ithink, looking at opportunities
for us to think about.
You know, what about thehomeowners that can't afford to
build back or they'reunderinsured?
Where can that supplementalmoney come from in a place where
there are no lawsuits or folksthat are to blame that are going
(24:24):
to be providing additionalfunds, and what does that look
like?
Are there places where we wantto buy land because it can be
strategic in firefighting, itcan create that open space, that
fire break?
So I think that there's a lotof things that we can do and be
thoughtful, but not havingfederal support is going to make
this even more challenginggoing forward.
Allan Marks (24:42):
I'll give you an analogy of flood insurance.
So when you have federal floodinsurance because the risks are
known, they're high and privateinsurers won't touch it.
So under by statute, federal lawsays fine, we're going to cover
it.
But when there's a payout, ifthe claim is more than half the
original value, the pre-disastervalue, eventually the
government says you know, don'tbuild back there, because it's
cleared as the floodplain.
Whether it's Mississippi andthe Southeast, we've seen a
(25:02):
number of areas where they'vesaid we've done this two or
three times, that's enough.
In Southern California and Iwould say the same is probably
true in most Northern Californiaas well land prices are so high
because it's still a verydesirable place to live.
We don't build enough housing.
The demand is there.
It's very unlikely that thecost to rebuild the structure,
no matter how elaborate it was,is more than half the value,
which could mean we keepbuilding back in exactly the
(25:24):
same places, even if we hadfederal insurance programs,
which doesn't really reduce therisk.
Tracy Quinn (25:28):
I think that that is definitely a challenge and I
think that there are going to beplaces that people are finding
it more and more challenging.
I think you know there wereover 300 homes along PCH that
were burned.
Allan Marks (25:37):
Right, and that's in Malibu, yeah that's in.
Tracy Quinn (25:40):
Malibu no-transcript before you even
(26:03):
get to building the home, and soI think that that'll be
interesting to see how thatplays out and what challenges
that presents for that stretchof homes and if there are
analogous things in other partsof Los Angeles where rebuilding
is happening.
Allan Marks (26:16):
What's the fair way to balance that systemic public
policy prescription that mightbe.
Maybe we shouldn't build backhere to the private property
owner's rights to say, well,wait a second, if I can afford
to spend the $700,000 on myseawall and my septic tank, the
delusion that this will last formore than 20 years, I should be
able to do so.
How do you reconcile that?
Tracy Quinn (26:33):
I think that's a huge challenge.
I think it's very tough to goto somebody who's just lost
their home and say you can'trebuild.
I think potentially there'sopportunity for folks that are
choosing not to rebuild to seeif there could be a program that
could buy that land formaintenance of public access,
for shoring up PCH, for otherthings.
But I think the challenge thereis where is the money going to
(26:54):
come from?
I think that is where itpresents the biggest challenge.
I've been trying to do researchand look at precedent and look
at what the possibilities arehere in California and I think
that presents the biggestchallenges.
Is a fair price for that landis quite expensive and so
looking at where that moneywould come, especially with what
the budget looks like right now.
Allan Marks (27:12):
And the social equity of that you know.
Bailing out really wealthylandowners when poor renters
aren't getting as much, I meanthat's not a good look.
Tracy Quinn (27:20):
Exactly, and I think that that's something that
came up as well, and so I thinkthat you know, these are not
simple questions and with verycomplicated, challenging
solutions, and we just haven'tcome up with them yet.
So there are things that we haddiscussions about in the Blue
Ribbon Commission that we justdidn't have the time to fully
vet to be able to makeconstructive recommendations.
Sean Knierim (27:37):
So, as we look forward to what's happening in
years ahead and you've sharedhow Heal the Bay has been around
for four decades being ofservice in this area from what
we've learned in the last months, what you've learned in your
roles in the last few months,how do you see the mission of
Heal the Bay, the work of Healthe Bay, changing as a result of
what Los Angeles has comethrough here in 2025?
Tracy Quinn (28:03):
Well, I think you know we were able to lead in the
response to understanding thepublic health impacts along our
coast.
What I found incrediblysurprising was that we don't
have protocols for what to testfor after a big urban fire.
We went out and we tested forheavy metals, we tested for PAHs
and PCBs, which you often seeafter a fire.
Sean Knierim (28:18):
And what are those ?
Tracy Quinn (28:19):
Oh, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and you
know that can come from burntvegetation, but it can also come
from fossil fuel-based productsas well.
Sean Knierim (28:27):
My refrigerator melting and rolling down the
hill into the bay.
Tracy Quinn (28:34):
Yes, that, for instance, and so we looked at
those things.
But there's no comprehensivelist of all of the things that
you might expect to find insurface waters after a fire that
burned the types of things thatwe saw this fire burn.
There are also no public healthstandards for recreational
contact with a lot of thecontaminants that we were
looking at and so being able todetermine.
Is it safe for me to goswimming and surfing in my
favorite spot?
I see a bunch of black muck inthe sand.
(28:55):
Is that toxic?
And not being able todefinitively answer that
question has been a hugechallenge.
So a role I see for Heal theBay going forward is working
with other scientists andresearchers and toxicologists to
be able to better provideguidance, to come up with a
disaster recovery playbook thatlooks at what should the
protocols be, what agenciesshould be taking the lead on
these things and how do we startnow so that the next time
(29:18):
around or the next communitythat joins this very unfortunate
club has those public healthstandards so they understand the
risk to their own public health.
Sean Knierim (29:26):
So you're pointing to some very technical
requirements and scientificrequirements and policy
requirements, but in order forwhat you're doing if I
understand this right to beeffective, it also requires
trust among those using thebeach wanting to go in the water
.
That would trust you, heal thebay to tell them or to warn them
.
How are you establishing thattrust with the communities that
are going to be thebeneficiaries of what you
(29:47):
learned?
Tracy Quinn (29:47):
Right now we're just trying to be really
transparent, right, and I thinkthe challenge is folks want the
answer is this safe or is it not?
And not being able to providethat has been a huge challenge,
and I think also not havingthose limits where you can
definitively say thisconcentration is safe and this
concentration poses a risk hasbeen a challenge.
And so there's been differentgroups saying different things,
which has seeded a little bit ofmistrust, I think, or just
(30:10):
confusion, maybe.
Allan Marks (30:11):
More confusion.
Tracy Quinn (30:12):
I think I mean.
Allan Marks (30:13):
Heal the Bay your A through F scorecard grading
different beaches in differentareas.
I think it's got a lot of trustfor people who know it.
I've relied on it in the past,picking which beach I want to go
to after a state rainy season.
Tracy Quinn (30:22):
We've been doing that beach report card for 35
years.
We are the experts on bacteriaand acute illness.
It has been more of a learningcurve and reaching out to other
experts to better understand thepublic health risks from
something like lead orhexavalent chromium or other
contaminants that we're lookingfor in our water and in our sand
.
But I think what we can do iswe can say this is the data and
(30:43):
this is what we know right now,and these are the other experts
that are affirming what we'resaying, and we will continue to
inform you as we learn and grow,and I think the challenge of
something like this is that whatwe know is changing every day.
We are learning something newevery day and so we just need
the public at large to be openand understanding of that.
That what we said yesterdaycould change because we're going
(31:05):
to get new information and ouropinion could change, and I have
a question about that becauseyou mentioned before too, and I
think it's true.
Allan Marks (31:11):
If there's a scorecard, if there's something
really easy, then I can look atit.
It's simple, it's trust.
I can go there and I can swimin the ocean and not worry about
it.
Yeah Right, I'm much moreworried about the riptide and,
you know, is there a lifeguard?
Having said that, if I compare,for example, water quality or
beach quality to air quality, ifyou go to one of the many apps
or the AQMD South Coast AirQuality Management District's
app itself, they will break itdown based on the EPA's, you
(31:34):
know, and MAWG components, youknow when mild components that
by statute on the Clean Air Actthat are allowed to track.
There's obviously others, butthat's what they're, that's what
they do.
So I can see if today myproblem is particulates, maybe
because of the fire or smog, orI can see if it's ozone, or I
can see, you know, I can seewhat it is, and I'm not sure
what I would do with information.
I'd probably still look at thenumber and say, gee, 25 green,
(31:55):
great 125, pretty bad, 400, wejust had 4th of July fireworks
or a fire and don't go outside.
So you can kind of figure thatout For you looking going
forward, if you do have datasets that allow you, on a
consistent basis, to look atorganic compounds or metals or
other things that are in theoceans, how much value is there
to breaking it apart and howmuch Does it make it too
(32:15):
complicated for most people?
Tracy Quinn (32:16):
I think there could be incredible value in that.
I think that this has openedour eyes to a lot of things that
were existed in our environmentbefore the fire and I think
that there's enough concern.
It warrants continuedmonitoring.
Something like bacteria orsomething like the different air
quality measures those arethings that are required by law
to be monitored.
We have passed legislation thatsays we're going to have
continuous monitoring.
We don't have that for thetypes of contaminants that we're
(32:38):
looking at after the fire inthe ocean, and the testing is
incredibly expensive,particularly for a nonprofit
like Heal the Bay to take on.
We weren't sure what was goingto happen right after the fires
because no one was required todo testing.
So we took money out of ourreserves and we ran out and we
did the testing.
Each sample was about $3,000.
So we did 10 samples and we didtwo because we did before the
first rains and after the rains.
(32:58):
So we spent 60,000 on labsampling.
That's a lot of money for anorganization like Heal the Bay
and if you're going to try to dothat weekly or monthly, even
that's an incredible expense.
And so one of the things we'llbe looking at is do we need this
type of data at greaterfrequency.
We didn't have baseline datafor a lot of these things
because it isn't testedregularly.
There's no requirement to do so, and so one of the things we'll
be looking at and talking withother experts on is do we need
(33:21):
regular testing?
And if so, you know we'llprobably have to pass
legislation to have it berequired.
Allan Marks (33:26):
So you mentioned, tracy, the things running off,
you know, from the fires andyou've done testing.
You know, I'm sure, of thewaters before and after the fire
.
How much from a fire of thepollutants are coming into the
oceans in the Santa Monica Bayfrom smoke, because usually
those fires are Santa Ana winds,so it's coming from the north
and blowing over the water.
So the ash coming on thesurface of the ocean how much is
(33:48):
coming from, you know,immediately coming into the
water and how much is cominglater when the rains come and
start washing everything downthrough the storm drain system.
Tracy Quinn (33:56):
You know that's a really challenging question to
answer because we only have acouple of data sets and they
don't necessarily follow thetrends that we would expect to
see.
We did testing before so wethink we have a good capture of
some of the ash deposition,although our testing happened on
, I think, january 24th, 5tharound there, so it was a little
(34:23):
bit after that.
The majority of the ashdeposition which could have
settled lower to the ocean floorwe are going out and doing
offshore testing.
I just was out with a boat andwe did some sediment sampling
from the ocean floor to try todetermine that, and then the
first rains that we had inJanuary were also the first
rains in about 11 months, sothat carried every contaminant
(34:46):
from throughout the watershedout into the ocean.
So it's hard to differentiate.
Are the metals that we'reseeing coming from runoff from
the burn areas, or are theycoming from you know cars and
other things from?
You know Right?
and industry and so forth, yeahfrom all over the greater Los
Angeles area?
That is going to be a reallychallenging question to answer.
We looked at things like what'scoming out of the storm drains.
(35:07):
You know, I think one of thethings that we saw was Rustic
Canyon outfall, which drains themajority of the burned area.
Like the most densely populatedpart of the burned area in the
Palisades, we see higher levelsof contaminants there than we do
in other places, and thatpoints to potentially some of
this coming from the burn areas.
(35:27):
But it's been reallychallenging and I think we'll
take months and months, if notyears, of studying and looking
at the data that we have in acomprehensive data set to really
be able to determine what thevarious sources were, and so we
can start developing strategiesto prepare for the next time.
Allan Marks (35:43):
That's really interesting.
If you were to do a stormwatersystem that filtered and
protected the ocean from ourrunoff, would you size that?
I mean it's different than, forexample, when we built the
Hyperion sewage treatment plantfor the city thanks to federal
lawsuits many years ago, becauseyou know, normal sewage is
(36:03):
actually pretty predictable flow.
Would you size the stormwaterfor the extreme events of rains
that we get once in a while, orwould you?
How do you figure that out?
Tracy Quinn (36:12):
I wouldn't build great infrastructure for
stormwater.
I think you know we have pavedover everything which has
increased the amount of runoffwe have.
When it does rain, I wouldbuild in more stormwater capture
, predominantly throughadditional green spaces.
Permeability yeah.
And so I think you know thosetypes of things can bring
(36:33):
incredible benefits to acommunity.
So you're looking atnature-based solutions, you're
addressing not only thepollution runoff, but you're
capturing water that can be usedfor you know, to supplement our
drinking water system.
Sean Knierim (36:43):
It can be used for irrigation and replenish
aquifers.
Tracy Quinn (36:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can do cisterns or you cando replenishment of aquifers.
You know, these types of thingsdistributed throughout the
greater Los Angeles area couldhave huge impacts.
And then, where you do haverunoff, making sure that that
first flush the majority shouldbe diverted to a wastewater
treatment system, because that'sgoing to be the most
contaminated, and then the restcould flow out to the ocean,
(37:05):
would hopefully be a little bitcleaner and could have some
additional treatment as well.
But if we really met our goalsin 2018, we passed Measure W.
It provides almost $300 milliona year for stormwater capture
projects, having that deployedin a really methodical,
strategic way to provide thesebenefits.
(37:25):
I mean, you're looking atthings like you can put these
into highly urbanized areas andyou can address extreme heat
issues where we have, you know,kids that are in schools that
are running around on blacktop.
That is 106 degrees outside,but it's 160 degrees on that
black top and they're havingrespiratory issues.
You can put in a lot more greenspace and stormwater capture in
the schools provide a learningopportunity for kids to learn
(37:46):
about the precipitation cycleand what stormwater capture can
do, but also cool thatenvironment and then reduce the
pollution that's running off.
It's an incredible opportunityto address all of the threats
that climate change is throwingat us, while also reducing the
pollution in our ocean.
Allan Marks (38:02):
The soil testing was one too.
I know there were some placeswhere LA Unified was doing soil
testing in their schools.
If you do it district-wide andyou look at lead and there's
lead poisoning in the soil thatyou didn't know about you
weren't testing for it how muchof that is from the fire?
Well, it turns out, if you've aschool that's not impacted by
the fire, but you're right by afreeway and you've been there
for the last 50 years, guesswhat?
You got lead in your soil.
So it's.
Tracy Quinn (38:20):
There are things like arsenic and lead that are
really pervasive in throughoutLos Angeles, you know, because
of our history of urbanizationand just the impact of our
activity, of human activities,and you know other things like
that are naturally occurring.
And so I think that for me, asan engineer and a scientist,
more data and more informationis always better.
I think the statements that,well, we don't want to test
because we might find legacypollutants, and then there's
(38:41):
going to be a question aboutwho's responsible for cleaning
up.
Well, as a citizen, I want toknow if it's there, I don't, I
want to know who's responsiblefor it so they can clean it up.
But more importantly, I want toknow what me and my family are
going to be potentially exposedto, so I always err on the side
of more data.
Sean Knierim (38:57):
As the Blue Ribbon Commission looked at different
elements coming out of the fire,which included water
availability throughout the twocommunities and I know that's
one of the areas, Tracy, thatyou were working on specifically
in your role on the commissionAny learnings that came out of
that or any observations thatwould be good for community
members to know about up.
Tracy Quinn (39:20):
Yes, we spent a lot of time looking at the pressure
loss specifically that happened.
That really impacted thefirefighters' ability to push
back the fire and have water inthe fire hoses.
So it wasn't a matter of havingenough water, it was really
about having that pressure.
So we looked at the things thatimpacted that.
So things like homeowners thatwere pulling from the same
system, hosing off their homesor leaving their hose running,
people whose homes burned and wedidn't have automatic shutoffs
(39:43):
so that water continued to rushout of their pipes, and all of
this was competing with thewater that our firefighters were
using.
So when we thought about ourrecommendations, we thought what
are the things that we caninstitute to make sure that we
can maintain pressure in thesystem?
I mean, the other thing thathappened was that the power went
out and a lot of these systemshad generators that had backup
(40:04):
power, but they only had fourhours and they were run by
diesel.
So you can imagine somebodyhaving to run into an active
fire with a diesel truck torefill a generator.
So we tried to address a lot ofthose things to make sure that
we had a resilient supply ofwater, and so we looked at
things like how do we buildredundancy into the system?
How can we make sure thathomeowners have the ability to
(40:26):
have a supply that's going to beused for fire suppression on
their parcel that isn'tcompeting with what the
firefighter is using?
And those are the types ofthings that you're going to see
in our report.
Sean Knierim (40:36):
Wonderful.
Tracy Quinn (40:37):
Thank you.
Sean Knierim (40:38):
So, tracy, as an engineer, as a scientist, as a
non-profit leader, as a publicservant, with this Blue Ribbon
Commission, who has a reallyunique perspective across
everything we're working on herein LA, where's the hope coming
that's animating this effortthat you're bringing to this
community?
Tracy Quinn (40:56):
Every my hope comes from the impacted communities.
The ways in which we were ableto come together and share
information and fill this gapleft by our government agencies
that weren't prepared.
That gives me hope.
Whenever I need something, Ican go to the chats and someone
has the information that I needor has a resource for me, and
(41:17):
that has been absolutelyinvaluable.
And just the ability of thesecommunities to come together for
one another prior to the fires.
And I think, because we live ina divisive society, you can
feel very alone and I haven'tfelt alone through this process
and I feel so much closer to mycommunity than I did before the
fires did.
Allan Marks (41:35):
Thank you for being one of the reasons for that,
though, because what you'redoing for the community and you
and your colleagues.
Thank you for being one of thereasons for that, though,
because what you're doing forthe community and you and your
colleagues not just at Heal theBay or on the commission, but
what you're doing more broadlyis creating that glue that's
holding people together, and wecouldn't do it without you.
Sean Knierim (41:46):
Thank you.
Thanks for agreeing to join us,meeting us for the first time
here today with us, and thanksfor the work you're doing.
This has been another episodeof Shared Ground.
We hope you continue joining usfor more of these conversations
moving forward.
Thanks very much.
This has been another episodeof Shared Ground, a podcast
about resilience and communityFollow us on your favorite
(42:06):
platform or learn more atsharedgroundcom.
That's shared-groundcom.
This is Shared Ground, a podcast about
resilience and community.
I'm Alan Marks and I'm SeanKnierim.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We're joined here today by apublic servant, someone we've
really looked up to for years,Tracy Quinn.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us.
Would you mind introducingyourself?
Who are you?
Who are you bringing to ustoday?
Tracy Quinn (00:20):
Sure, I'm Tracy Quinn.
I'm the president and CEO ofHeal the Bay, which is a
40-year-old nonprofit based inSanta Monica that is working to
protect and restore the coastalwaters of greater Los Angeles.
Allan Marks (00:31):
Thank you so much.
Your background, too, is the LADepartment of Water and Power
and Metropolitan Water District,and you've dealt with so many
agencies around the city beforeyour work and even still now
overlapping with your work withHeal the Bay, in all of those
contexts, agencies, nonprofits,not just communities need to be
(00:52):
resilient too.
Tracy Quinn (00:52):
What is resilience to you?
It's so funny to ask thatquestion because so much of my
professional life has been abouttrying to make communities more
resilient, but I still find itsuch a difficult word to define,
I think.
In the simplest terms, I thinkof it as the ability to bounce
back after threat or damage, andit's challenging because you're
thinking about that withcommunities, with people, with
coastlines, with infrastructure.
(01:12):
All of this needs to beresilient, and I think that you
can drill down to really justhow can it bounce back after
something is impacting it.
Sean Knierim (01:20):
Yeah, can I ask you a question about the verb
that you use, so bouncing back?
Yeah, can I ask you a questionabout the verb that you use, so
bouncing back?
So that's assuming that we'rebouncing back to where we were
before.
As we think about what we'vecome through in Los Angeles with
the fires over the last fewyears, I'm not sure if we can
bounce back to where we were.
We're bouncing you, and thosethreats are changing and
evolving.
Tracy Quinn (01:47):
And so I think, when we think about the fires,
we don't want to just build backthe communities that we had
before, because climate changeis bringing additional threats
and we need to think about howwe can be more resilient, how we
can be prepared to adapt to achanging environment.
Allan Marks (02:00):
Let me stay with that for a second because that
is interesting.
We talk about bouncing forwardversus bouncing back, for that
kind of in the literature onesees it, adaptation, which is
sort of an environmental concept, is really kind of different.
And you're right to sayresilience is bouncing back.
That is actually theetymological origin of the word
from Latin.
But adaptation is sort ofsaying we're going to have to do
something differently becausethe conditions have changed, the
(02:22):
context of change.
If humans are still emittinggreenhouse gases and we have
climate change and thereforeextreme weather risk change and
coastal erosion happens and wehave more fire risk and so forth
, then to adapt means we have todo things differently than
we've done before, not merelycome back to where we were.
Tracy Quinn (02:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think how you adaptis going to change over time in
order to keep you resilient.
So I think that you know thisis something that we need to
think about in all the ways inwhich our communities are
changing.
Extreme heat, flood, drought,beach erosion, sea level rise,
ocean acidification these areall things that are happening in
Los Angeles that are changingover time because of a changing
(02:58):
climate.
Allan Marks (02:59):
I asked you about the ocean in particular because
after the fires I could walkalong the bluff in Santa Monica
and you look at that gorgeousview toward Malibu and across
the bay with, unfortunately, thePalisades, is just gaping brown
gap on the right-hand side.
The other thing that I noticedis the blue water, or the blue
green water as it comes close tothe beach.
In those days it was still verybrown and the waves were yellow
(03:19):
.
They weren't white and thebeaches were closed.
Now they've reopened.
Can you tell us a bit from yourexpertise about the water
quality and how that's impactedby wildfires?
Tracy Quinn (03:28):
This is, you know, something that there hasn't been
a ton of research on, and sowe're learning a lot, as we're,
you know, delving into researchand doing testing ourselves.
But during the fires, therehappened to be some scientists
that were offshore and theyobserved ash coating the ocean
surface up to 100 miles offshore.
So we had the ash depositionthat was contaminating,
polluting our ocean.
And then, as we think about it,our storm drains are all
(03:50):
connected to the ocean.
So, no matter where you are ingreater Los Angeles, from Summit
to Sea, all of that stormwater,all of that urban runoff,
anytime you wash your car, allof that is flowing out to the
ocean.
So, as our firefighters were inthe hills spraying down homes,
spraying fire retardant, all ofthat was being washed into our
storm drain system and then outinto the ocean.
So that may be what you wereobserving when you saw a change
(04:12):
in the color.
Allan Marks (04:13):
So staying with that for a moment.
I mean looking at the ocean andocean quality.
What should be done, what wouldmake that situation better?
To know exactly what's going on, of course, you have monitoring
systems in place and so forth,but in order to make us more
aware of what's happening in theenvironment and then fix it.
Tracy Quinn (04:32):
Yeah, I think for the urbanized areas, and that's
where we're really concernedabout the threats from things
like burned electric cars andeverything in our home these
days is made from plastic andall of that is going to burn and
flow to the ocean.
So I think, in our residentialneighborhoods and our more
urbanized neighborhoods, reallyensuring that we are capturing
stormwater and then, when weneed to, are diverting that to a
sewer system instead of havingthat go out to the ocean.
Even before the fire,stormwater was the number one
(04:53):
source of pollution to ourcoastal waters here in Los
Angeles.
But something like a fire thatis going to bring additional
contaminants, things that aretoxic to both human and marine
health we want to be betterprepared for, so being able to
capture that water before itgets to the storm drain.
That can be things like havingproactive measures on hand,
having LA Sanitation and LACounty Public Works be ready to
(05:13):
deploy things like filtrationsocks, but what I hope it means
is that in the long term, we arebuilding this into our
infrastructure so that thatstormwater, that polluted water,
isn't making it out out to thebay.
Sean Knierim (05:23):
So, tracy, with Heal the Bay, you were doing a
lot of this work before January2025.
But then these events occur inclose to where you live
personally, where yourorganization is kind of based.
What did you learn about yourorganization?
Were you ready for this, orwhat did Heal the Bay have to do
to adapt itself or to bounceback itself from these fires?
Tracy Quinn (05:50):
Yeah, I mean I think this was a really a
growing moment for Heal the Bay.
We have 40 years of history ofdoing water quality testing and
even, maybe more importantly,translating really wonky water
quality data into an easy way tounderstand for the public, so
that the public can really takeownership of their own health
and know when and where it'ssafe to swim, whether you're in
a river or out in the ocean, andthat uniquely positioned us to
be able to go out and to do thesampling ourselves.
So one of the things I'm soproud of the staff is that they
(06:10):
got to work right away.
They could see what youobserved as well with the ash
deposition and the potentialissues with water quality, and
they put together a samplingplan and a protocol.
Heal the Bay was one of thefirst nonprofits invited behind
the fire lines to understandwhat was happening, and so we
were able to be escorted withinthe burn zone and we did water
quality sampling up north of theburn area in Malibu five
(06:32):
different places within the burnzone and then south as far as
Malaga Cove down in Palos Verdes, to really be able to get that
spatial distribution of what washappening and, I think, what
was so challenging about beingimpacted by this is you feel so
helpless and it was really greatto be a part of an organization
that could immediately get towork and to take action to help
(06:53):
our community and help protectthis beautiful coastline.
That, I think, is the reasonthat a lot of us love living
here so much.
Sean Knierim (06:58):
Can you share a little bit about leading an
organization that is groundedand based in a place that had
just come through a prettytremendous shock and now you're
going behind fire lines firelines which included where you
were living before the fires.
Right, what was it like leadingthe humans that had to do this
work?
We'll talk about the systemsand the work itself, but the
people you were leading that hadto be affected, going across
(07:20):
those lines Any reflectionsthere as a leader?
Tracy Quinn (07:23):
It's tough to say as a leader.
What I can say is, you know, wetalked about resilience, the
fact that my staff was soincredibly resilient, and I
think people who elect to workin the nonprofit space, who
elect to work at an organizationthat's providing a service to
the community, I think, arenaturally inclined to want to
help.
So to see everyone in everydepartment.
You know we run the aquariumunderneath the Santa Monica Pier
(07:43):
.
Our staff opened that up tofamilies that were impacted by
the fire so that they had a safeplace to drop off their kids.
Their kids would be distractedwith baby sharks and petting
other sea cucumbers and such, sothat they could go to the
disaster recovery center andstart dealing with trying to
find housing and what they weregoing to do.
From every element of theentire organization came
together and said how can wehelp, how can we be there for
(08:03):
our community?
And I think, just being able tosit back, I mean to some degree
I was kind of dealing withwhere am I going to live, and
the staff really rose up to theoccasion and met the moment and
that was.
I'm just in awe of them.
Sean Knierim (08:16):
Can you talk about your own personal experience of
January 5th January 6th whenwere you?
What happened?
Tell us your own personaljourney to get here.
Tracy Quinn (08:25):
Yeah, I was in Antarctica when the fires broke
out.
I had been invited to lectureon ocean health and heal the
bay's work to a group on anexpedition boat in Antarctica.
It was the trip of a lifetimeand something that I had been
very much looking forward to,and we had and now you'll never
forget it, and now I will.
Sean Knierim (08:41):
That sounds wonderful, but yes.
Tracy Quinn (08:43):
And so we had just finished crossing the Drake's
Passage and had opened to ourfirst day in Antarctica.
When I learned of the fires inthe Pacific Palisades, I started
getting a flurry of textmessages.
I hadn't planned to purchase aninternet plan on the boat.
That changed quite quickly whenI learned that my home was
being threatened and certainlythat the majority of the
community that I had grown tolove so much was being severely
(09:04):
impacted and destroyed.
Allan Marks (09:06):
And you're still out of your home, which,
physically, is intact, butyou're not able to return yet.
Tracy Quinn (09:11):
Yeah, I feel incredibly lucky.
I live in a condo in theHighlands and when you look at
the fire map there's that littlehole that kind of got missed by
the fire.
The fire burned on all foursides of our community but we
were spared, so we do have smokedamage.
I had a window open and someonevery kindly went into my home
when it was still under threatand rescued my family photo
(09:33):
albums.
So some ash came in the frontdoor when they came in, but the
structure is sound and I'll beable to move back potentially
later this summer.
Allan Marks (09:41):
Pause on that for a moment because the impact the
emotional impact, of hearing yousay that your photo albums were
saved by a neighbor.
That's pretty amazing for afriend.
It also says something aboutthe social networks that someone
could do that for you and be intouch with you.
Tracy Quinn (09:55):
Yeah, I mean I'm very grateful.
I reached out to CouncilwomanTracy Park I had heard that she
and her staff were behind thefire lines and were able to get
in and I kind of threw a HailMary and said you know, is there
anyone there that can go in?
At Christmas, my mom haddecided I would be the keeper of
all of the family albums and soI had just gotten them.
Two weeks later my home wasunder threat.
(10:17):
So they very kindly went in andgrabbed some things for me and
kept them at their office untilI was able to pick them up.
But you know, I think that Iwas in communication with my
neighbors.
They were giving me real-timeupdates about what was happening
, so I was trying to stayabreast of what was happening,
and the community was so goodabout keeping each other
informed.
Sean Knierim (10:33):
That's wonderful.
So in the subsequent months,what have you learned about
yourself, about taking care ofyourself, coming through this
type of an experience, because Iimagine that has to inform how
you're serving the organizationyou're part of and some of the
wider leadership roles that youhave here in this community.
But for yourself and takingcare of yourself, coming out,
what have you learned?
What have you done?
How are you able to do the kindof work you're doing in service
(10:53):
to others?
Tracy Quinn (10:54):
I mean, I don't think I'm a great example of how
to take care of yourself,necessarily Tell us what to
avoid.
Allan Marks (10:59):
Tracy.
Tracy Quinn (11:01):
I mean, I've really thrown myself into work.
My work has always been, youknow, I'm very lucky to have a
job that I'm passionate about,and this is a place where we
could really step up.
I also, you know, because of myconnections to decision makers
and elected officials.
Through my job, I've been ableto work with the community and
help them to get their needs met, their concerns, to the right
folks.
I think one of the thingsthat's been so incredible about
(11:22):
this is how the community hascome together.
In the early days, so manyWhatsApp chats popped up and I'm
still on several of them.
I get dozens of messages a daythat folks are communicating
about the things that arehappening with them
(11:49):
no-transcript health and safetyand moving back and a lot more
questions about working with ourinsurance.
There are no protocols for.
Should you get tested forthings like heavy metals in your
home or VOCs?
What does that look like?
How much should it cost?
Do you do it before remediationor after?
So there was experts in thecommunity.
(12:09):
And then what the heck are yougoing to do with the answers
that come back If you're all?
Allan Marks (12:14):
required to be disclosed if you decide you
can't go back and need to sellthe property.
Tracy Quinn (12:17):
We are really grateful that we have some
incredible experts in thecommunity that came together to
kind of figure out what are thebest plans, and we did webinars.
There was a man, larry Vane,who he's part of Pally Strong,
and put together this series ofwebinars for folks to be able to
better understand, and so I wasable to participate in one of
those on the health of goingback to the community.
Sean Knierim (12:35):
So it seems like part of the answer in how you
took care of yourself was byjumping in and being active in
service to others as you figureout how to take care of yourself
.
Is that fair?
Tracy Quinn (12:44):
Yeah, I think so.
I like to stay busy in times ofcrisis, and this really
provided an opportunity to dothat.
Allan Marks (12:50):
Sean, does that resonate?
Sean Knierim (12:51):
for you?
It certainly does.
Alan says this if you're notwatching this on video, he has a
slight like caring, I hope,smirk on his face.
Allan Marks (12:58):
It is caring.
It's a smirk, but it's caring.
It's a caring smirk, yes.
Sean Knierim (13:01):
I don't know.
Do you think I have taken?
I do, because what?
Allan Marks (13:03):
I've seen you in one of the ways you've reacted
outwardly anyway, and we'vetalked obviously a lot about
these things but one of the waysyou've dealt with this is by
kind of redoubling andchanneling into care for others,
starting with family of course,but radiating out and seeing
you do that, seeing you you knowTracy seeing others, that's
kind of a remarkable thing tosee so many people with that
(13:26):
response.
Sean Knierim (13:27):
We had a guest, dan Dorkus, on here, who works
with high performing communitiesand works on performance hard
situations, and he talks aboutthe common things we know to
take care of ourselves.
So sleep a little bit more, getsome more water, some good food
, some more activity, be aroundothers, but like mindfulness,
meditation, prayer if that'spart of your world and I find in
these moments of unsettlingtimes that sitting still with my
(13:49):
thoughts and reflecting is ascary thing Then moving and
moving in a way Is it?
scarier than it was before foryou.
I have waves now.
Two weeks ago it was probablymore emotional for me than the
week after we lost our home.
Now I feel pretty solid.
I haven't cried today but Iknow that could come back and I
think staying in motion is andthis has always been for me in
my life like meditation.
(14:09):
In motion is the way that I'vebeen able to get to a mindful
state and that's usually throughsome kind of physical activity
where, if I lose focus,something's going to happen.
But I think that also reflectsin the work.
The way you're talking abouthow you threw yourself into this
Tracy absolutely resonates, andTracy for you.
Tracy Quinn (14:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm naturally inclined to
stay busy.
I may be a workaholic, you know, before I was at Heal the Bay,
I was at the Natural ResourcesDefense Council lobbying, sort
of being the only one fighting400 industry folks that were,
you know, clashing all the time.
And that takes a lot of effortand a lot of time, and I'm very
passionate about what I do andso it was very easy to slide
(14:44):
into.
How do I use this knowledge andhow do I use the expertise of
my organization to be to makethis better?
And I think that that is kindof how I'm dealing with a little
bit of the trauma.
I also I have a lot of troublewith the quiet moments.
I've been back to the communityseveral times and I find it
really hard.
The pictures are just so verydifferent than being in it and
smelling it and tasting it, andit's just a very different
(15:07):
experience.
Allan Marks (15:08):
And so Toxins are a little more real.
Tracy Quinn (15:12):
I'm sure that there will come a time where there's
a moment to step back and be alittle bit more mindful.
I try to do some walks in themorning, especially now that my
current housing situation isnear the beach, and go for some
walks Even most of that.
I'm planning out my day andfiguring out what I need to do.
Allan Marks (15:26):
Let me ask you then if you can imagine the
emotional response when, severalmonths or years from now let's
say a year and a half you'reable to go back maybe sooner to
a home but it's your home andit's been cleaned up and you can
put the photo albums back onthe shelf but you're coming back
to a neighborhood thatotherwise looks a lot like a
charred lunar landscape.
Businesses aren't back, themarket's not there, it's not the
same anyway, even if it is, butit probably won't be in that
(15:47):
time period and your island ofneighbors half of them aren't
coming back perhaps.
How is that going to feel?
Tracy Quinn (16:00):
I think about that a lot.
I love living there.
I mean, I saved for 25 years tobuy my first condo and the only
reason I was even able to buyit was that my father passed
away and I sold his townhome andwas able to put a down payment
on a condo.
And I loved every moment ofliving in the Highlands and the
Palisades.
And I'm terrified of going back, I think, even though I wasn't
there, and I can't imagine whatit's like for the people who
were there and had to escape,and the stories that I've heard
(16:20):
from my neighbors.
During the fires I was textingwith a neighbor who was told to
shelter in place because thefire was blocking both exits,
and I know that that will alwaysbe in the back of my mind.
So I am.
I population starts to comeback, that one that it maintains
that beautiful community spiritthat we had before, but that we
(16:42):
settle into the new normal ofliving in this version of the
Palisades.
Sean Knierim (16:46):
Yeah, so you have both chosen to, and been
selected to join a leadershipgroup in the LA area.
The Blue Ribbon Commissionfocused on the rebuilding.
Allan Marks (16:55):
And just to give her context, because not
everybody listening to this is.
You know, from here, the LACounty Board of Supervisors
Lindsay Horvath, in particular,a supervisor, along with Leo
Frank, who's the new head ofUCLA, put together a commission
which you're on, which is, Imean, they call it Blue Ribbon
and it is just a stellar, likeoutstanding, group of people and
leaders in the community thatare looking at fire recovery in
(17:17):
ways that are sustainable andresilient, in particular.
Sean Knierim (17:19):
Thanks, alan, for giving that context Tracy, as
being part of this and thinkingabout that bridge of your own
personal connection to communityand the community that you hope
to be able to establish.
How has your role on thiscommission, how has that been
affected by these thoughts youhave for the community that you
had and that you want to havewhen you get back into the home?
Tracy Quinn (17:38):
Yeah, I mean I think, Alan, you spoke to the
incredible expertise on thisBlue Ribbon Commission and I'm
so honored to be a part of it.
I started my career as a civilengineer doing water and
wastewater infrastructure design, and so I'm excited to be able
to engage in that area, but I'malso the only person from the
(18:00):
Palisades that was impacted.
That is a part of this group, soable to bring some of the
experiences and some of theconcerns from the community into
the conversation as we thinkabout the types of
recommendations that we want tomake and what the community is
looking for in therecommendations that we make.
So we're tasked with, as younoted, not only thinking about
how can we be sure that thiscommunity is built back in a way
that is fire resilient, so thatwe don't see this type of
devastation again, but also howdo we use this opportunity to
rebuild communities in LosAngeles in a way that is more
(18:24):
resilient to the impacts ofclimate change?
So how are we thinking aboutextreme heat and flood and
drought and all of the otherways in which we may be impacted
by climate, and how do we buildthat into these communities to
make them more resilient andalso provide other benefits.
How do we make sure there'smore green space?
How do we make sure there'sredundant water supplies, so
homeowners aren't pulling fromthe same system as our
(18:44):
firefighters?
So it's a really interestingway to approach rebuilding and
making recommendations for whatthese communities are going to
look like in the future.
Allan Marks (18:53):
I read there's the interim, or at least initial
preliminary report that came out, which was very impressive,
long, detailed, concise in itsindividual sections.
And I was struck because I meanobviously Altadena, which is
the Eaton Canyon fire.
It was an unincorporated LosAngeles county, pacific
Palisades is in the city of LosAngeles, so different
jurisdictional, but was stillwithin the greater county of LA.
And when I looked at thepreliminary discussion there was
(19:15):
also a point made about lessonsthat can be learned so that
other areas of the county thathave not burned can also be
hardened in a way.
Now there wasn't a lot on landuse, which of course is a
critically important part ofthis in dealing with climate
risks and weather and so forthanyway, but it was very
interesting to see that.
How much attention will begiven, do you think, to
improvements that would berecommended either in building
(19:37):
codes, code enforcement, landuse and other things you know
countywide?
Tracy Quinn (19:41):
I think you'll see several recommendations that are
looking beyond the areas thatwere directly impacted by these
fires.
When we look at the new mapsthat were released about where
the vulnerable areas are, itextended far beyond the areas
that burned in January, and sothe recommendations are going to
be looking at things likebuilding codes, but also what
does retrofitting look like?
How do we make these changes inthese built environments where
(20:01):
you're not getting to start fromscratch again?
What kind of things can we dothere?
And so you're going to see alot of that in the report next
week.
Allan Marks (20:06):
And is your expectation that it's
financially possible to do thatin a way that brings back
insurability to a lot of thosenow expanded zone of wildfire
risk or fire risk areas shouldsay areas or is it something
that will require more severeadaptation from a land use?
Tracy Quinn (20:22):
perspective, insurability was a big part of
the conversations that we had asa part of this commission.
There were several work groupsthat were looking at a number of
different issues, but that wassomething that came up quite
often in a lot of the differentwork groups and when we came
together as a larger group.
So making sure that ourcommunities, that we, can
continue to have insurance, isgoing to be really important.
So you'll see a lot ofrecommendations that are trying
(20:42):
to directly address that, and wewere very lucky to have
insurance experts on this BlueRibbon Commission that could
help to provide informationabout what insurance companies
are going to be looking for,what their constraints are and
how we can help to adapt, movingforward.
Sean Knierim (20:55):
So you're sitting on this commission with a bunch
of long-term lifetime publicservants, extraordinary people
You're taking on informationflows from across.
Two have expected if someoneasked you what you were going to
run into in January, what arethe pieces of this time for you,
(21:25):
working on the commission thatyou're going to remember in 10,
15 years and look back God, Inever thought about that.
Anything comes to mind.
Tracy Quinn (21:30):
I learned so much as a part of this commission.
We have experts that have goneinto disaster areas all across
the world that are bringingtheir expertise from tsunamis
and floods and hurricanes andtornadoes and all across the
world that are bringing theirexpertise from tsunamis and
floods and hurricanes andtornadoes and all of the
different disasters that areexperienced on this planet and
what the best practices were inother parts of the world.
I'm struggling to think of aparticular example.
I think I learned a lot moreabout insurance than I ever
(21:52):
thought I would ever need toknow.
When I bought my home, theytold me that I needed insurance
to close and I said OK, and andI got insurance and I don't
think I really read the policy.
But learning so much more aboutthe how insurance companies
function in California, that hasbeen a huge learning curve for
me and sort of what they'refacing when they're thinking
about insuring Californians andyou know when you know that's
(22:15):
changing on a weekly, monthlybasis right now.
Absolutely.
I mean, when you think aboutyou know the risk that they're
thinking about when they go intoa neighborhood, learning that
you know they may not want toinsure a single company, may not
want to insure more than acouple homes on a block in a
fire-prone community, You'rethinking, well, gosh, you know,
there were nearly 7,000 homesthat burned in the Palisades,
over 9,000 in the Eaton fires,and there's only a handful of
(22:37):
companies operating.
Where are we all going to findthis insurance?
Or are we going to have to relyon the California Fair Plan?
And then there's risk there.
So that, I think, was a hugelearning curve for me.
Allan Marks (22:45):
Well, and Fair Plan once you get passed a
reinsurance which is billions ofdollars, right, you then get
stuck with it going back to theinsurance companies, which means
they have to.
That gets very expensive veryquickly for kind of everybody.
It'll be interesting to me tosee, by the way, how it's
different between Altadena andPacific Palisades, because in
(23:06):
the Palisades, because thesource of ignition is unknown
and probably not related toutility equipment, basically a
natural disaster, like a lot ofwildfires that are adjacent to
cities, in Altadena there may bethat nexus to Southern Comfort
Edison.
That brings in our inversecondemnation statutes which,
like the PG&E experience inNorthern California, means that
there could be a pool of fundingthrough utilities and rates and
(23:27):
the wildfire insurance fundsthat were set up in the wake of
the PG&E bankruptcy at the statelevel.
So there's very differentsources of capital for
rebuilding or liability coveragein those two communities, even
though what actually happenedthere was not that different.
Tracy Quinn (23:41):
That reminds me of another thing that I learned
that I found really fascinatingwas the types of programs that
are typically available after adisaster like this, and the type
of funding that is usuallycoming from the federal
government and various federalprograms that is not available
this time around and may not beavailable for future disasters.
And so how can states becomemore robust?
I think you know there's aninnovative idea that is coming
(24:03):
out of this with a resiliencyfund, and I think that the LA
County supervisors areconsidering a motion on that
sometime in the near term and, Ithink, looking at opportunities
for us to think about.
You know, what about thehomeowners that can't afford to
build back or they'reunderinsured?
Where can that supplementalmoney come from in a place where
there are no lawsuits or folksthat are to blame that are going
(24:24):
to be providing additionalfunds, and what does that look
like?
Are there places where we wantto buy land because it can be
strategic in firefighting, itcan create that open space, that
fire break?
So I think that there's a lotof things that we can do and be
thoughtful, but not havingfederal support is going to make
this even more challenginggoing forward.
Allan Marks (24:42):
I'll give you an analogy of flood insurance.
So when you have federal floodinsurance because the risks are
known, they're high and privateinsurers won't touch it.
So under by statute, federal lawsays fine, we're going to cover
it.
But when there's a payout, ifthe claim is more than half the
original value, the pre-disastervalue, eventually the
government says you know, don'tbuild back there, because it's
cleared as the floodplain.
Whether it's Mississippi andthe Southeast, we've seen a
(25:02):
number of areas where they'vesaid we've done this two or
three times, that's enough.
In Southern California and Iwould say the same is probably
true in most Northern Californiaas well land prices are so high
because it's still a verydesirable place to live.
We don't build enough housing.
The demand is there.
It's very unlikely that thecost to rebuild the structure,
no matter how elaborate it was,is more than half the value,
which could mean we keepbuilding back in exactly the
(25:24):
same places, even if we hadfederal insurance programs,
which doesn't really reduce therisk.
Tracy Quinn (25:28):
I think that that is definitely a challenge and I
think that there are going to beplaces that people are finding
it more and more challenging.
I think you know there wereover 300 homes along PCH that
were burned.
Allan Marks (25:37):
Right, and that's in Malibu, yeah that's in.
Tracy Quinn (25:40):
Malibu no-transcript before you even
(26:03):
get to building the home, and soI think that that'll be
interesting to see how thatplays out and what challenges
that presents for that stretchof homes and if there are
analogous things in other partsof Los Angeles where rebuilding
is happening.
Allan Marks (26:16):
What's the fair way to balance that systemic public
policy prescription that mightbe.
Maybe we shouldn't build backhere to the private property
owner's rights to say, well,wait a second, if I can afford
to spend the $700,000 on myseawall and my septic tank, the
delusion that this will last formore than 20 years, I should be
able to do so.
How do you reconcile that?
Tracy Quinn (26:33):
I think that's a huge challenge.
I think it's very tough to goto somebody who's just lost
their home and say you can'trebuild.
I think potentially there'sopportunity for folks that are
choosing not to rebuild to seeif there could be a program that
could buy that land formaintenance of public access,
for shoring up PCH, for otherthings.
But I think the challenge thereis where is the money going to
(26:54):
come from?
I think that is where itpresents the biggest challenge.
I've been trying to do researchand look at precedent and look
at what the possibilities arehere in California and I think
that presents the biggestchallenges.
Is a fair price for that landis quite expensive and so
looking at where that moneywould come, especially with what
the budget looks like right now.
Allan Marks (27:12):
And the social equity of that you know.
Bailing out really wealthylandowners when poor renters
aren't getting as much, I meanthat's not a good look.
Tracy Quinn (27:20):
Exactly, and I think that that's something that
came up as well, and so I thinkthat you know, these are not
simple questions and with verycomplicated, challenging
solutions, and we just haven'tcome up with them yet.
So there are things that we haddiscussions about in the Blue
Ribbon Commission that we justdidn't have the time to fully
vet to be able to makeconstructive recommendations.
Sean Knierim (27:37):
So, as we look forward to what's happening in
years ahead and you've sharedhow Heal the Bay has been around
for four decades being ofservice in this area from what
we've learned in the last months, what you've learned in your
roles in the last few months,how do you see the mission of
Heal the Bay, the work of Healthe Bay, changing as a result of
what Los Angeles has comethrough here in 2025?
Tracy Quinn (28:03):
Well, I think you know we were able to lead in the
response to understanding thepublic health impacts along our
coast.
What I found incrediblysurprising was that we don't
have protocols for what to testfor after a big urban fire.
We went out and we tested forheavy metals, we tested for PAHs
and PCBs, which you often seeafter a fire.
Sean Knierim (28:18):
And what are those ?
Tracy Quinn (28:19):
Oh, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and you
know that can come from burntvegetation, but it can also come
from fossil fuel-based productsas well.
Sean Knierim (28:27):
My refrigerator melting and rolling down the
hill into the bay.
Tracy Quinn (28:34):
Yes, that, for instance, and so we looked at
those things.
But there's no comprehensivelist of all of the things that
you might expect to find insurface waters after a fire that
burned the types of things thatwe saw this fire burn.
There are also no public healthstandards for recreational
contact with a lot of thecontaminants that we were
looking at and so being able todetermine.
Is it safe for me to goswimming and surfing in my
favorite spot?
I see a bunch of black muck inthe sand.
(28:55):
Is that toxic?
And not being able todefinitively answer that
question has been a hugechallenge.
So a role I see for Heal theBay going forward is working
with other scientists andresearchers and toxicologists to
be able to better provideguidance, to come up with a
disaster recovery playbook thatlooks at what should the
protocols be, what agenciesshould be taking the lead on
these things and how do we startnow so that the next time
(29:18):
around or the next communitythat joins this very unfortunate
club has those public healthstandards so they understand the
risk to their own public health.
Sean Knierim (29:26):
So you're pointing to some very technical
requirements and scientificrequirements and policy
requirements, but in order forwhat you're doing if I
understand this right to beeffective, it also requires
trust among those using thebeach wanting to go in the water
.
That would trust you, heal thebay to tell them or to warn them
.
How are you establishing thattrust with the communities that
are going to be thebeneficiaries of what you
(29:47):
learned?
Tracy Quinn (29:47):
Right now we're just trying to be really
transparent, right, and I thinkthe challenge is folks want the
answer is this safe or is it not?
And not being able to providethat has been a huge challenge,
and I think also not havingthose limits where you can
definitively say thisconcentration is safe and this
concentration poses a risk hasbeen a challenge.
And so there's been differentgroups saying different things,
which has seeded a little bit ofmistrust, I think, or just
(30:10):
confusion, maybe.
Allan Marks (30:11):
More confusion.
Tracy Quinn (30:12):
I think I mean.
Allan Marks (30:13):
Heal the Bay your A through F scorecard grading
different beaches in differentareas.
I think it's got a lot of trustfor people who know it.
I've relied on it in the past,picking which beach I want to go
to after a state rainy season.
Tracy Quinn (30:22):
We've been doing that beach report card for 35
years.
We are the experts on bacteriaand acute illness.
It has been more of a learningcurve and reaching out to other
experts to better understand thepublic health risks from
something like lead orhexavalent chromium or other
contaminants that we're lookingfor in our water and in our sand
.
But I think what we can do iswe can say this is the data and
(30:43):
this is what we know right now,and these are the other experts
that are affirming what we'resaying, and we will continue to
inform you as we learn and grow,and I think the challenge of
something like this is that whatwe know is changing every day.
We are learning something newevery day and so we just need
the public at large to be openand understanding of that.
That what we said yesterdaycould change because we're going
(31:05):
to get new information and ouropinion could change, and I have
a question about that becauseyou mentioned before too, and I
think it's true.
Allan Marks (31:11):
If there's a scorecard, if there's something
really easy, then I can look atit.
It's simple, it's trust.
I can go there and I can swimin the ocean and not worry about
it.
Yeah Right, I'm much moreworried about the riptide and,
you know, is there a lifeguard?
Having said that, if I compare,for example, water quality or
beach quality to air quality, ifyou go to one of the many apps
or the AQMD South Coast AirQuality Management District's
app itself, they will break itdown based on the EPA's, you
(31:34):
know, and MAWG components, youknow when mild components that
by statute on the Clean Air Actthat are allowed to track.
There's obviously others, butthat's what they're, that's what
they do.
So I can see if today myproblem is particulates, maybe
because of the fire or smog, orI can see if it's ozone, or I
can see, you know, I can seewhat it is, and I'm not sure
what I would do with information.
I'd probably still look at thenumber and say, gee, 25 green,
(31:55):
great 125, pretty bad, 400, wejust had 4th of July fireworks
or a fire and don't go outside.
So you can kind of figure thatout For you looking going
forward, if you do have datasets that allow you, on a
consistent basis, to look atorganic compounds or metals or
other things that are in theoceans, how much value is there
to breaking it apart and howmuch Does it make it too
(32:15):
complicated for most people?
Tracy Quinn (32:16):
I think there could be incredible value in that.
I think that this has openedour eyes to a lot of things that
were existed in our environmentbefore the fire and I think
that there's enough concern.
It warrants continuedmonitoring.
Something like bacteria orsomething like the different air
quality measures those arethings that are required by law
to be monitored.
We have passed legislation thatsays we're going to have
continuous monitoring.
We don't have that for thetypes of contaminants that we're
(32:38):
looking at after the fire inthe ocean, and the testing is
incredibly expensive,particularly for a nonprofit
like Heal the Bay to take on.
We weren't sure what was goingto happen right after the fires
because no one was required todo testing.
So we took money out of ourreserves and we ran out and we
did the testing.
Each sample was about $3,000.
So we did 10 samples and we didtwo because we did before the
first rains and after the rains.
(32:58):
So we spent 60,000 on labsampling.
That's a lot of money for anorganization like Heal the Bay
and if you're going to try to dothat weekly or monthly, even
that's an incredible expense.
And so one of the things we'llbe looking at is do we need this
type of data at greaterfrequency.
We didn't have baseline datafor a lot of these things
because it isn't testedregularly.
There's no requirement to do so, and so one of the things we'll
be looking at and talking withother experts on is do we need
(33:21):
regular testing?
And if so, you know we'llprobably have to pass
legislation to have it berequired.
Allan Marks (33:26):
So you mentioned, tracy, the things running off,
you know, from the fires andyou've done testing.
You know, I'm sure, of thewaters before and after the fire
.
How much from a fire of thepollutants are coming into the
oceans in the Santa Monica Bayfrom smoke, because usually
those fires are Santa Ana winds,so it's coming from the north
and blowing over the water.
So the ash coming on thesurface of the ocean how much is
(33:48):
coming from, you know,immediately coming into the
water and how much is cominglater when the rains come and
start washing everything downthrough the storm drain system.
Tracy Quinn (33:56):
You know that's a really challenging question to
answer because we only have acouple of data sets and they
don't necessarily follow thetrends that we would expect to
see.
We did testing before so wethink we have a good capture of
some of the ash deposition,although our testing happened on
, I think, january 24th, 5tharound there, so it was a little
(34:23):
bit after that.
The majority of the ashdeposition which could have
settled lower to the ocean floorwe are going out and doing
offshore testing.
I just was out with a boat andwe did some sediment sampling
from the ocean floor to try todetermine that, and then the
first rains that we had inJanuary were also the first
rains in about 11 months, sothat carried every contaminant
(34:46):
from throughout the watershedout into the ocean.
So it's hard to differentiate.
Are the metals that we'reseeing coming from runoff from
the burn areas, or are theycoming from you know cars and
other things from?
You know Right?
and industry and so forth, yeahfrom all over the greater Los
Angeles area?
That is going to be a reallychallenging question to answer.
We looked at things like what'scoming out of the storm drains.
(35:07):
You know, I think one of thethings that we saw was Rustic
Canyon outfall, which drains themajority of the burned area.
Like the most densely populatedpart of the burned area in the
Palisades, we see higher levelsof contaminants there than we do
in other places, and thatpoints to potentially some of
this coming from the burn areas.
(35:27):
But it's been reallychallenging and I think we'll
take months and months, if notyears, of studying and looking
at the data that we have in acomprehensive data set to really
be able to determine what thevarious sources were, and so we
can start developing strategiesto prepare for the next time.
Allan Marks (35:43):
That's really interesting.
If you were to do a stormwatersystem that filtered and
protected the ocean from ourrunoff, would you size that?
I mean it's different than, forexample, when we built the
Hyperion sewage treatment plantfor the city thanks to federal
lawsuits many years ago, becauseyou know, normal sewage is
(36:03):
actually pretty predictable flow.
Would you size the stormwaterfor the extreme events of rains
that we get once in a while, orwould you?
How do you figure that out?
Tracy Quinn (36:12):
I wouldn't build great infrastructure for
stormwater.
I think you know we have pavedover everything which has
increased the amount of runoffwe have.
When it does rain, I wouldbuild in more stormwater capture
, predominantly throughadditional green spaces.
Permeability yeah.
And so I think you know thosetypes of things can bring
(36:33):
incredible benefits to acommunity.
So you're looking atnature-based solutions, you're
addressing not only thepollution runoff, but you're
capturing water that can be usedfor you know, to supplement our
drinking water system.
Sean Knierim (36:43):
It can be used for irrigation and replenish
aquifers.
Tracy Quinn (36:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can do cisterns or you cando replenishment of aquifers.
You know, these types of thingsdistributed throughout the
greater Los Angeles area couldhave huge impacts.
And then, where you do haverunoff, making sure that that
first flush the majority shouldbe diverted to a wastewater
treatment system, because that'sgoing to be the most
contaminated, and then the restcould flow out to the ocean,
(37:05):
would hopefully be a little bitcleaner and could have some
additional treatment as well.
But if we really met our goalsin 2018, we passed Measure W.
It provides almost $300 milliona year for stormwater capture
projects, having that deployedin a really methodical,
strategic way to provide thesebenefits.
(37:25):
I mean, you're looking atthings like you can put these
into highly urbanized areas andyou can address extreme heat
issues where we have, you know,kids that are in schools that
are running around on blacktop.
That is 106 degrees outside,but it's 160 degrees on that
black top and they're havingrespiratory issues.
You can put in a lot more greenspace and stormwater capture in
the schools provide a learningopportunity for kids to learn
(37:46):
about the precipitation cycleand what stormwater capture can
do, but also cool thatenvironment and then reduce the
pollution that's running off.
It's an incredible opportunityto address all of the threats
that climate change is throwingat us, while also reducing the
pollution in our ocean.
Allan Marks (38:02):
The soil testing was one too.
I know there were some placeswhere LA Unified was doing soil
testing in their schools.
If you do it district-wide andyou look at lead and there's
lead poisoning in the soil thatyou didn't know about you
weren't testing for it how muchof that is from the fire?
Well, it turns out, if you've aschool that's not impacted by
the fire, but you're right by afreeway and you've been there
for the last 50 years, guesswhat?
You got lead in your soil.
So it's.
Tracy Quinn (38:20):
There are things like arsenic and lead that are
really pervasive in throughoutLos Angeles, you know, because
of our history of urbanizationand just the impact of our
activity, of human activities,and you know other things like
that are naturally occurring.
And so I think that for me, asan engineer and a scientist,
more data and more informationis always better.
I think the statements that,well, we don't want to test
because we might find legacypollutants, and then there's
(38:41):
going to be a question aboutwho's responsible for cleaning
up.
Well, as a citizen, I want toknow if it's there, I don't, I
want to know who's responsiblefor it so they can clean it up.
But more importantly, I want toknow what me and my family are
going to be potentially exposedto, so I always err on the side
of more data.
Sean Knierim (38:57):
As the Blue Ribbon Commission looked at different
elements coming out of the fire,which included water
availability throughout the twocommunities and I know that's
one of the areas, Tracy, thatyou were working on specifically
in your role on the commissionAny learnings that came out of
that or any observations thatwould be good for community
members to know about up.
Tracy Quinn (39:20):
Yes, we spent a lot of time looking at the pressure
loss specifically that happened.
That really impacted thefirefighters' ability to push
back the fire and have water inthe fire hoses.
So it wasn't a matter of havingenough water, it was really
about having that pressure.
So we looked at the things thatimpacted that.
So things like homeowners thatwere pulling from the same
system, hosing off their homesor leaving their hose running,
people whose homes burned and wedidn't have automatic shutoffs
(39:43):
so that water continued to rushout of their pipes, and all of
this was competing with thewater that our firefighters were
using.
So when we thought about ourrecommendations, we thought what
are the things that we caninstitute to make sure that we
can maintain pressure in thesystem?
I mean, the other thing thathappened was that the power went
out and a lot of these systemshad generators that had backup
(40:04):
power, but they only had fourhours and they were run by
diesel.
So you can imagine somebodyhaving to run into an active
fire with a diesel truck torefill a generator.
So we tried to address a lot ofthose things to make sure that
we had a resilient supply ofwater, and so we looked at
things like how do we buildredundancy into the system?
How can we make sure thathomeowners have the ability to
(40:26):
have a supply that's going to beused for fire suppression on
their parcel that isn'tcompeting with what the
firefighter is using?
And those are the types ofthings that you're going to see
in our report.
Sean Knierim (40:36):
Wonderful.
Tracy Quinn (40:37):
Thank you.
Sean Knierim (40:38):
So, tracy, as an engineer, as a scientist, as a
non-profit leader, as a publicservant, with this Blue Ribbon
Commission, who has a reallyunique perspective across
everything we're working on herein LA, where's the hope coming
that's animating this effortthat you're bringing to this
community?
Tracy Quinn (40:56):
Every my hope comes from the impacted communities.
The ways in which we were ableto come together and share
information and fill this gapleft by our government agencies
that weren't prepared.
That gives me hope.
Whenever I need something, Ican go to the chats and someone
has the information that I needor has a resource for me, and
(41:17):
that has been absolutelyinvaluable.
And just the ability of thesecommunities to come together for
one another prior to the fires.
And I think, because we live ina divisive society, you can
feel very alone and I haven'tfelt alone through this process
and I feel so much closer to mycommunity than I did before the
fires did.
Allan Marks (41:35):
Thank you for being one of the reasons for that,
though, because what you'redoing for the community and you
and your colleagues.
Thank you for being one of thereasons for that, though,
because what you're doing forthe community and you and your
colleagues not just at Heal theBay or on the commission, but
what you're doing more broadlyis creating that glue that's
holding people together, and wecouldn't do it without you.
Sean Knierim (41:46):
Thank you.
Thanks for agreeing to join us,meeting us for the first time
here today with us, and thanksfor the work you're doing.
This has been another episodeof Shared Ground.
We hope you continue joining usfor more of these conversations
moving forward.
Thanks very much.
This has been another episodeof Shared Ground, a podcast
about resilience and communityFollow us on your favorite
(42:06):
platform or learn more atsharedgroundcom.
That's shared-groundcom.
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