January 14, 2025 • 36 mins
Unveiling Strength: From Hyperemesis Gravidarum to Giselle Pelicot's Fight for Justice
Trigger warnings: Baby loss, medical neglect and sexual violence
In this episode, the hosts tackle two intense stories centered on women's health and resilience. First, they highlight the work of Marlena Fejzo, an American geneticist who dedicated her research to understanding Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG) after her own harrowing experience with the condition. Marlena's efforts led to significant strides in uncovering the genetic basis of HG and advocating for better treatments
The second segment delves into the harrowing and empowering story of Giselle Pelicot, a French woman who discovered that her husband had been drugging and recruiting men to assault her for nine years. Giselle bravely waived her anonymity to ensure justice was served, influencing legal reforms and raising global awareness. This episode highlights the importance of addressing and respecting women's health concerns and the shame wrongly felt by victims of sexual abuse.
Resources:
HER Foundation: https://www.hyperemesis.org/
https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/finding-out/your-first-midwife-appointment/
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-help/want-to-talk/
https://rainn.org/resources
00:00 Introduction and Banter
00:59 Today's Stories Overview
01:38 Marlene Fazo: The Scientist
02:17 The Reality of Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG)
04:31 Marlene's Personal Struggle with HG
08:38 Scientific Breakthrough: Discovering the HG Gene
14:51 Ongoing Efforts and Advocacy
16:33 The Importance of Sharing and Normalizing Conversations
18:03 Public Service Announcement and Transition
18:12 Introducing the Story of Giselle Pelicot
19:32 Giselle's Life and the Horrific Betrayal
21:17 The Arrest and Uncovering the Crimes
26:13 The Trial and Giselle's Bravery
32:04 Reflections on the Case and Its Impact
35:54 Conclusion and Resources for Support
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio3530181378 (00:08):
My god, you guys love the stress, don't you?
You're like a wedding, baby, twohouse moves.
Insane.
I don't like messing about.
No, but you're just like all thestress in a really small amount
of time.
Let's do it.
All of it, bring it on.
All of it, all of it, all of it.
Funny.
Um, okay.
(00:29):
Hi Vicky.
Hi Simon.
How you doing?
I'm good, you look very breezy.
It's so hot in here, honestly.
So, so hot.
The nation is shaking.
Shivering.
It's just like an entirehousehold of, of heat is just
concentrated in this one room.
So funny.
(00:50):
I can't take my jumper off, Ihaven't got anything underneath,
it's so funny.
Oh no.
Well that'd be, it'd just be adifferent podcast.
A very different podcast, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so, I've got two shorterstories for you today.
Okay.
the sort of, kind of women of2024 sort of.
neither of them.
Well, actually one is one isquite positive in the end.
(01:13):
The other is, you've probablyheard about her and it was just
heartbreaking and dreadful andawful and it's going to be
difficult to take many positivesfrom it.
So we're going on an emotionalrollercoaster.
It's not even a rollercoaster,it's just emotional downhill for
the duration.
So if you want to tune out now,I'd recommend Ching Shih or the
(01:36):
Champagne Lady.
So the first lady is, MarleneFazo, F-E-J-Z-O.
Okay.
And she is an Americanscientist.
She, went to Brown and Harvard.
it's called a PhD.
She's a geneticist.
Okay.
Love that.
Already exciting.
I've always wanted to be thatkind of scientist.
(01:57):
It's insane.
The fact that your DNA is ablueprint.
It's just crazy.
And that one, one little thingin DNA could make you a dolphin.
It's so delicate, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm one third dolphin.
video3530181378 (02:14):
Thanks.
Bye bye.
Bye bye.
audio3530181378 (02:17):
So imagine waking up every morning, heart
pounding with dread, knowingthat the next 24 hours will be a
relentless battle against yourown body.
Every smell, every sight, everythought, a trigger for waves of
nausea that leave you gaspingfor air.
This is not a horror movie, it'sthe reality for many women who
suffer from something calledhyper omesis gravidarum, or HG
(02:37):
for short, conditions so severeit pushes them to the brink of
physical and mental exhaustion.
So HG is it was often dismissedas being morning sickness on
steroids.
So, morning sickness, verycommon.
About 70 percent of pregnantwomen have it.
and HG is a very extreme versionof that.
(03:00):
Okay.
And I mean, morning sicknessitself is almost a bit of a
misconception, because yeah, youhave it in the morning, but a
lot of the time you have it allthrough the day as well.
Of course.
And it's a sort of spectrum ofseverity.
Some people will get it minorlyand it can be fixed with a
biscuit.
And then all the way up to,hyperemesis gravidarum, HG,
which I think sort of onlyreally came to people's
(03:21):
attention when, Catherine,Princess of Wales, Kate
Middleton had it.
That's true, she washospitalized, wasn't she?
So she was hospitalized for it,yeah.
It's serious, not just becauseof how debilitating the,
sickness, the nausea can be, butalso because that then prevents
you from eating, prevents youfrom drinking, so you get
malnourished, you getdehydrated, and you, it can sort
(03:45):
of escalate to the point whereit then, risks not only your
health, but that of the foetusas well.
So it's a really seriouscondition.
But it's so often in the pastjust being dismissed as almost
psychosomatic or otherwise justexaggerating the symptoms.
Because it's women's health.
Because it's women's health.
A woman.
Yeah.
(04:06):
And it reminds me, I suppose thesort of closest reminder I've
got is, with endometriosis.
Yeah.
Where that'll so often bewritten off as, oh, it's just
period pain.
Oh, you're just, you're justcomplaining, you're exaggerating
the symptoms, et cetera.
When actually it's reallyserious.
Medical condition that needs anintervention and they don't get
(04:27):
it.
they just get dismissed by thedoctor.
So, Marlena she had twopregnancies.
Yeah.
Two pregnancies.
Yeah.
In her first one she had nausea,morning sickness.
Okay.
It was bad but manageable.
But during her second, she thendeveloped hg.
Constant vomiting, inability tokeep down water, really bad
(04:51):
fatigue.
It's just a constant oppressionto being able to live any sort
of normal life.
You know what this is making methink of is making me think of
our episode on Empress Matilda,who, even though it was in the
1100s, was not able to claimher, constituency, her monarchy.
(05:11):
And it was never said, Why?
But she was very early in herpregnancy and I You just think
morning sickness, don't you?
I didn't even think, you know,she could have had something
like this.
Absolutely.
And again, it was just nevereven considered for historians
that it might be something to dowith her pregnancy.
(05:31):
It was, she didn't want theempire.
She wasn't bothered about it.
She didn't have enoughinclination to go and get it.
And actually it could have beensomething like this.
You just can't understate howcrippling this is.
I mean a lot of the symptomsseem in line with the sort of
chronic fatigue symptom, whichagain has been dismissed for
decades, but then post Covid wehave long Covid symptoms, so
(05:54):
suddenly it has become moreaccepted.
Just an awful thing to happenwhen you're already feeling
vulnerable, when you've alreadygot a lot of stuff changing.
And it's a big change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a massive change.
Um, so she was sick in her firstpregnancy, but then HG sort of
hit, in her second pregnancyreally, really bad.
(06:14):
And.
She saw doctors.
She knew it wasn't, wasn'tright.
but the doctors were of no help.
They dismissed it.
They said she was exaggerating.
She was offered little in theway of effective treatment.
Um, it was this like cycle of,you feel nauseous, you can't eat
(06:35):
or drink, you get dehydrated.
That makes you more nauseous.
You go downhill.
And this is modern medicine,right?
This is like 10 years ago.
Wow.
Yeah, modern medicine.
And it's not even that theseconditions just get dismissed as
an exaggeration, it's thatoften, and throughout history as
well, women are made to feelshame.
Like it's their fault.
(06:57):
Like period symptoms and things,uh, we'll, we'll shun you away.
We'll shut you away for a fewdays.
Cause we don't want to get it.
It's a shameful thing that hasto be hidden.
Honestly.
I've got so many flashbackscoming with my time with doctors
and, you know, not beinglistened to and being scared to
say what your symptoms arebecause you just know you're
going to be judged and you justknow you're going to be
(07:17):
dismissed and, and I would sayI'm pretty average.
You know, I'm not one who's beento a doctor's especially mm-hmm
And yeah.
I've got so many little ding,ding, ding examples that are
coming through.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it was sort of written off as amanifestation of anxiety.
No, she wasn't having it.
It's like, this is not just inmy head.
(07:38):
Yeah.
she refused to accept it and sheknew that there must be some
biological reason for why thisis happening.
There has to be something goingon.
I think I'm right in saying thatshe ended up losing that baby,
because of this HG, which wentuntreated and the fetus just
couldn't take the stress.
She was hospitalized, hooked toan IV.
(07:59):
But the doctors remainedbaffled, whether it was
conscious bafflement orsubconscious sort of
discrimination against her.
But She got through it and wasjust fueled by this harrowing
experience she'd had during thispregnancy with a determination
to help other women, with thiscondition and get to the bottom
of what's actually going on.
(08:20):
Um, yeah.
Anger fuels action sometimes,doesn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
She had some training.
Oh, so this was actually back inthe late 90s.
This happened.
So about 25 years ago Which along time in medicine.
It's a long time.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
So she started to research andHG Women's health issue.
(08:43):
Of course, it was massivelyunderstudied.
I'll tell you what else you'llfind particularly surprising.
funding was scarce.
Simon, the revelations you'regiving me right now.
It's shock after shock, isn'tit?
Um, and like the medical, themedical community as a whole
believe in its severity.
(09:04):
They weren't convinced about it,they just put it down to
whinging and, Marlena actuallyworked, for a cancer research.
company.
Cool.
Very cool.
But decided to leave that andfocus her research on HG
hyperemesis.
So this was already, she wasalready science y, already
stabbed.
She was already science y andwanted to just pivot to putting
(09:27):
her efforts into HG.
And she knew that if she leftthe cancer research place, other
people would research cancer.
That would keep on going.
But if she didn't leave, nobodyelse was going to pick up the
baton of HG.
Actually what it does remind meof as well is Viagra, which was,
initially Heavily researched.
(09:48):
Heavily funded.
Well, it was originally, lookedat as, something to help heart
conditions and they gave it toso many drug trials.
I remember this.
Yes.
They gave it to a group of menand said, see if it helps your
condition and they came back andthey said, well, it doesn't help
my condition, but I'll tell youwhat, it has helped an enormous
(10:09):
amount.
Um.
Sexy, sexy.
Yeah, exactly.
So then it got commercializedfor that, but there has been
research in recent years abouthow Viagra can help enormously.
with sort of period cramps,period symptoms and everything.
It's really effective used onwomen for, period symptoms.
(10:31):
But they never spotted thiscause none of the people in the
drugs trial were women.
Yeah.
And it's every medicine.
I can't stress this to the womenlistening to this podcast
enough.
Your health is not researched.
There is nothing that it'sgetting better, but all the
medicines you're having, allthose trials they've been
through, all men.
(10:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then when sort of abreakthrough to find that
actually this could be useful,actually getting the funding to
then have a full trial and thefull research on it is almost
impossible.
Um, and it's maybe changing veryslowly, but it's far slower than
it should be.
So yeah, Marlena scientifictraining behind a few by
(11:15):
personal experience.
She was.
persevering with this, she wasgoing to get to the bottom of
HG.
So she started reaching out toother women who had this
condition, collected theirstories, collected their medical
histories.
And with her training as ageneticist, most importantly,
she collected their DNA.
She thought the key to unlockingthis must be hidden in their DNA
(11:39):
somewhere, because this is areal thing that's happening and
it's ruining people's lives.
she wanted to get to the bottom.
So initially she was just goingaround finding people who'd had
it and asking them for a swab ofsaliva.
The classic system.
The classic system.
In terms of, medical research.
It's, this is quite a laborintensive way to do it and it's
(12:02):
not enough of a sample pool.
And it's not controlled either,is it?
It's just these women have thesethings.
Yeah.
So she launched a campaign toget these saliva samples.
She sent out thousands of DNAkits across the country, did
what she could to research it,pulled over the data patterns
and things.
But her real breakthrough camewhen she came across, probably
(12:24):
heard of it, an Ancestrycompany, DNA testing company,
23andMe.
I do, yeah.
Which is, I think, bigger in theStates than it is here in the
UK.
She spoke with them and theyreally got on board with her,
planned with her cause andagreed that they would include
in their questionnaire,questions about HG.
(12:46):
Okay.
So, suddenly She went fromhaving to post out swabs to get
people's saliva, to having anenormous database of women
reporting that they'd sufferedwith this.
And she had their DNA, and shecould use it for the research.
So And it was all done legally,right?
All done legally, yeah.
Yeah, immediately my head's likeSo she began poring over all of
(13:12):
this data, searching for thesepatterns, the sort of genetic
variations, that could indicateand explain why some people, why
some women are more susceptibleto this illness.
She pinpointed the gene.
It's a gene, GDF15, which playsa really crucial role in
(13:35):
regulating nausea and vomiting,and it's to do with appetite as
well.
And she found that women withcertain variations of this gene
are far, far more likely tosuffer from HG.
Like, she'd, was almost thiswatershed moment for her,
because she had proven that itwas a physiological condition,
not a psychological condition,not something that's been
(13:56):
measured.
Yes! Pre measured in the day.
Like, here it is, I'vepinpointed, this is what causes
it.
and now we can do somethingabout it, like we've, we found
out what caused it, now we canstart working on a fix.
There's no better feeling thanit's not in your head.
Yeah.
It's just nothing better, it'sthe best line.
If you're unwell to begin with,you don't need to be gaslit as
(14:16):
well.
Yeah.
Just 101, innit?
Just a bit of empathy would go along way.
Yeah, totally.
One of our main findings wasthat this gene is responsible
for the production of a hormonewhich you produce.
loads of during pregnancy.
Ah, that's interesting.
But with a variation in this,before you're pregnant, you
(14:36):
produce very, very little of it.
Yeah.
And they suspect that this hitof going from very, very little
to having absolutely loads iswhat sort of shocks your body
into having this, this HG orthis nausea, this morning
sickness response.
So she's now working ondeveloping drugs that increase
the production of this hormonegradually.
(14:57):
In the run up to you gettingpregnant so that when you do get
pregnant, it's less of a jumpand therefore has less of an
impact on you.
Mm-hmm.
She's gone on to co-found, theHyperemesis Education and
Research Foundation.
The her foundation.
Yeah.
Which Clever is just a real, hasgotta be something, isn't it?
Which is a real lifeline forwomen struggling with hg.
she's sort of tireless advocatefor it, raising awareness of the
(15:20):
condition, pushing for bettertreatments, pushing for.
a better awareness of it amongsthealthcare professionals.
She sounds an angel, like shesounds an angel.
Incredible.
Amazing.
I'm just like giving a voice tothese people who've been
silenced and denied and gaslitfor so, so long.
Yeah.
And where is this?
She's American.
She's American.
(15:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Whose health system isnotoriously, even more
difficult.
Yeah.
It's a beast.
So yeah, good for her, that'sinsane.
That's great, isn't it?
So she's persevered, used herown personal issues in
combination with her trainingand everything to really push on
(16:03):
and she's still working on ittoday.
and I suppose really the, thecloser for this little mini
expose on Marlena, if you arestruggling with HG, check out
the Her Foundation website andyeah.
Now married to a currentlypregnant woman who has had
really bad morning sickness.
It's such an isolating thing,but you are not alone.
(16:27):
You're not imagining it.
There is help.
You should talk to someone aboutyour symptoms.
Yes.
And tell your friends.
Tell anyone that will listen toyou because if you're suffering
it, your friends might sufferfrom it.
And at least then they know thatthat's an option.
And this is the thing.
Like so many, I say woman, somany things you, you think.
It's just me.
(16:48):
And it's never, tell yourgirlfriends, tell your mum, tell
any female that will listen,that will listen to you.
And, yeah.
Spread that because, we're thefirst generation, I think, who
talks about smear tests andtalking about all that and try
and normalise it because there'sso much there that you need to
know about your own body.
So yeah, just talk and talk andtalk and talk.
(17:10):
Just a body and it's just a bodythat does things that bodies do.
It's not something to beembarrassed or ashamed of.
Just talk about it, get it outthere.
And you'll feel better.
You'll feel better tellingsomeone.
Yeah, definitely.
I do.
Yeah.
And it might be that they'resuffering with it or it might be
that they They know someone.
They know someone and even bysharing it you may make someone
(17:32):
else not feel alone in this.
Or recognise something inthemselves.
and if you do speak to someone,I'm not knocking our local
doctors.
I haven't any complaints, butSpeak to your midwife.
Speak to the midwife.
Find out the, there's usuallylike an emergency gynecology,
section, unit in the hospitalthat will help with this, who
(17:56):
are aware of it and will be onit, certainly here in the UK.
Don't be a martyr.
Public Service Announcement.
We're very good at these.
That's our little PSA for today.
Yeah, absolutely.
Fab! So, that's actually quitean uplifting one.
I'm gonna, as the sort of secondhalf of this double build mini,
(18:18):
I would like to talk aboutGiselle Pellico.
Yeah, I'm going to be discussingpretty severe, sexual assault,
sexual abuse, the justicesystem, drugging.
spousal abuse, all of these.
So if you've got little ones orif this is going to be
(18:41):
particularly triggering for you,I would advise, uh, rate, like,
and subscribe and we'll see younext time.
Anyway, and we'll see you nexttime.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's an important story though.
Let's go.
Yeah.
I think, Giselle Pellico, she'sactually, that was her married
name, which she's now dismissed.
is my woman of 2024 just for herastounding, bravery and bucking
(19:09):
the norm, bucking the trend andjust the way she's conducted
herself in, it's just horrific.
It's absolutely horrific.
It was about September lastyear.
My main source of this from, forthis is four months of reporting
and following the story, reallyclosely.
It's been.
(19:29):
compelling and horrifying inequal measure.
Giselle was, lived in a smallFrench town called Mazan, which
from the outside seemed like atotally ordinary small town,
full of totally ordinary peopleand builders and plasterers and
bank managers and shopassistants and just a town, a
(19:51):
totally nondescript, normalFrench town.
And she lived there with herhusband.
She was a loving wife, devotedmother, son and a daughter.
She was a respected member ofher community.
But behind all of this, and shedidn't know about it, was just
(20:13):
an absolute betrayal andviolation, which when it came
out has shocked, I would sayshocked the world, but
particularly shocked France.
Yeah, it shocked the world,100%.
It definitely did, it stretchedand you can see that in like the
subculture movements that havehappened that people are
redesigning time of the yearmagazine covers with her face on
(20:35):
and, if Instagram's your thing,there's a huge commentary on
there of women who, from alldifferent cultures all over the
world, standing with Giselle.
She was born in 1952, had astable, stable, warm, earlier
years, met her future husband,Dominique, in her youth and they
(20:56):
built a life together, as manypeople do, many people wish to.
They raised two children, haddecades of what she thought was
a happy marriage, normal homelife, just very typical.
But she didn't know thatDominique was a, a total
predator.
Just hiding in plain sight.
in 2020, Dominique was arrestedfor upskirting.
(21:22):
So, upskirting is where you takea photo of a woman's skirt.
Um, he And got illegalized solate.
Yeah, it was only a few yearsago in the UK, wasn't it?
Yeah, 2018, something like that,horrendously late.
Yeah, I remember at the timethere were lots of stories
about, like people beingupskirted at music festivals and
Glastonbury and things.
And off the back of that, therewas a lot of campaigning and
(21:43):
finally made illegal.
I think it was made illegal inScotland before England.
Yeah.
But yeah, the police arrestedhim over this.
Okay.
And he's Used his phone to takepictures.
They thought maybe he's donethis before.
There was a criminalpsychologist interviewed him
over this particular crime, butjust knew something wasn't right
(22:05):
with him.
Couldn't pinpoint it, but justgot the impression that this was
a man with two very clear andvery different sides to his
personality and that he wasdoing a very good job of
performing as this.
Typical, laid back, nice,genial.
Bumbly man, yeah.
He's lovely, but he really, hehad such a strong inclination
(22:28):
that there was this other sideto him.
So he, encouraged the police toinvestigate further.
That's interesting.
And the police then looked onhis computer, um, and what they
found on his computer was a verywell catalogued, collection of
videos and images spanning aperiod of nine years of him and
(22:52):
other people raping his wife,Giselle, while she appeared to
be, in all of the videos,unconscious.
So the investigation got deeper.
Obviously, this is a moreserious issue now than
upskirting.
The word that really stood outfor that, for me, that was well
categorized.
(23:12):
This is just a dirty littlething.
This is like you said, acompletely different
personality, like a completepart of his identity.
Totally.
This is not an opportunistcrime.
This is not someone takingadvantage of a drunk woman on a
night out.
This is.
Someone who has meticulouslyplanned and organised and
(23:34):
arranged this over and overagain.
Yeah, that's, it actually sentme into a bit, like a bit of a
shiver.
Yeah, the idea that, like howmany hours did he invest in
that?
Yeah.
So it's like nine years that hewas doing this for.
Nine years that Giselle hadabsolutely no idea about it.
So, what would happen is hewould slip drugs into her food
(23:57):
or drink.
Giselle would go unconscious andhe would then invite other men
around within around a 40 mileradius of Mazan.
And he would get men in, hewould advertise on particular
websites.
to come and rape his wife.
A particular website.
And he would then film it and,he would film it, catalogue it,
(24:20):
and we're not talking about oneor two, this is dozens, this is
over 50 strangers that heinvited to do this.
Giselle, such was theeffectiveness of the drugs, had
absolutely no idea that this washappening.
She knew something was going on.
was up, but she couldn't explainthe medical condition.
She couldn't explain why she wassore, why she ached, why she
(24:43):
kept getting UTIs, these sort ofrecurring things.
Hearing this straight off theback of Marlena is so, like,
their stories match so well.
Because again, it's women notbeing listened to.
And, this surely should ringsome alarm bells.
If you have, I can't speak onbehalf of the medical
(25:05):
profession, but if you havesomething, something
unexplained, there has to be anexplanation.
You can't just write this off asa, that science is a
fundamental, isn't it?
Yeah.
It had to be a reason behindthis.
It might've been, I don't knowif she, I don't even know how
you could have an inclinationthat this was happening, such is
(25:26):
the horrific nature of it.
You would never think that.
You're safe in your own home, inyour own bed, with your own
husband.
Where on earth would your braingo?
Oh, people are traveling from a40 mile radius.
Yeah.
To attack me.
You just wouldn't, would you?
You just wouldn't.
No.
Um, so, these details were foundby the police and investigated
(25:50):
and the investigation took along time because there were so
many, so many abusers.
Okay.
there's over 50 men.
Fortunately, Dominique hadrecorded all of them, so they
could all be identified.
They're all on film.
And then finally, last year,2024, the trial began.
(26:13):
Now, the sort of the norm inthese cases is that the woman
has anonymity.
Yep.
And, and reporting is notallowed, particularly in France,
reporting is not allowed onthese cases.
it's, so it goes back for me tothis victim blaming, victim
shaming, for some reason thevictim should be ashamed about
something that someone else hasdone to them.
(26:35):
Even though this is not her,this is not her fault.
She should not be ashamed of it,but so often, particularly with
sexual assault cases, this iswhat happens.
And people don't want to openthemselves up to the usual
accusations that come along oflike, Oh, it wasn't, Oh, it's
your fault for being drunk.
It's your fault for wearing thatis et cetera.
But she refused the anonymityand allowed full reporting of
(26:58):
the trial and for all of herdetails to be out there.
Um, it's incredible.
just the strength that must'vetaken to.
Walk into that courtroom, andshe was there every day.
In that courtroom, sat oppositeher husband, sat opposite all of
the accused, listening to thesestories, watching the replays of
(27:20):
what her husband had done.
And that was a big part of theprosecution is because these men
have been recorded, so there'sno, there was no possibility of
denial by them that they hadbeen involved.
I think this is the reason whyshe's Woman of 2024 because that
testament to that, hercharacter, because she'll be
(27:43):
ripping apart inside in ways Ican't even imagine.
She'll be absolutely torn down.
Yeah.
And then, to make a historicallysignificant decision that,
ripples.
It will ripple through the globeof other decisions being made by
other women to make sure thatthey're stood up for in legal
(28:04):
systems.
And that is awe inspiring.
It's, it's out of this world shemade that decision.
Yeah.
On her own, independently, noone coerced her into doing that,
I think it's, yeah, it's uh, thegravity.
Yeah, and she would have knownwhat she was getting involved in
(28:25):
by going to the court case everyday.
But to find that sort of innerstrength and conviction to
actually not hide away from itand show to the world that she
is a, survivor of it and thatshe is coming out the other side
of this.
When her entire life, her entireworld has been undermined,
ripped apart.
(28:45):
Yeah, like the whole concept ofher loving marriage was a flop.
She waived her right toanonymity, story shared around
the world, I mean, in terms oftrue crime reporting, this was a
hell of a story to be reported,a difficult read every day that
there was an update, but justsuch a powerful statement from
(29:06):
her, she actually said, I am nota victim, I am a survivor, One
of the sort of biggest impactsthat it seems to have had is the
normality and mundanity of themen who were accused.
These were not You think of likethe image, I don't remember the
sort of program Brass Eye fromyears ago and so, so many times
(29:28):
like a sex pest is alwayspictured in an anorak and
creeping around in an alleyway.
With the moustache and theskinny and the yeah, I don't
know.
Creepy people look creepy.
Creepy creepy.
Actually, these people didn'tlook creepy.
These were normal men.
These were men who had, one ofthe things I find most sickening
is they had daughters.
(29:49):
And yet they were, everyone's,you know, got a mum, lots of
people have daughters andsisters.
But what she's done in makingthat decision that we just spoke
about was the world, Women haveknown that sex pests look
normal.
We've known that for centuries.
The world didn't know that.
(30:10):
And I think that is justanother, string to her bow of
what she's achieved and now theworld hopefully listens and
should know because they wereelectricians weren't they,
firefighters, civil servants,electricians, plumbers,
firefighters, shop workers,Just, just your town.
(30:30):
A normal, totally normal town,normal people with normal family
lives.
And then behind this, I mean,the main defense that a lot of
them tried, some just, pledguilty to it.
Because of the video.
So they couldn't deny that partof it.
The main part that they tried todeny was the rape aspect of it.
And they claimed that it waspart of a sort of sexual fantasy
(30:55):
and she was pretending to beunconscious.
That defense did not fly.
And they've, yeah.
I'm pretty sure that most, ifnot all of them have been
sentenced to prison time.
Yeah.
and just the movement that shestarted, this sort of
empowerment that she's given towomen to reclaim their lives,
(31:15):
question.
Reclaim, love that, reclaim.
Actually, this is weird, and I'mgoing to stand up for it.
I'm not going to be the victim.
yeah, I think it's led to legalreforms in France, so extra
protections for victims ofsexual violence, holding
perpetrators accountable, theactual definition of rape in
France was slightly Was it?
(31:36):
Oh.
So they had some work to do inthe prosecution to fit the
crimes into that definition.
Oh, seriously?
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't know that.
But So she's up against a notfit for purpose justice system
as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but came out of itvictorious.
I think both in the legal senseand dignified.
(31:58):
Dignity is the big thing here.
I don't really know how toconclude this other than she's
absolutely incredible.
I find it harrowing how I am aman.
That's not the bit I findharrowing.
Um, but like, I am a man, Iwould consider myself pretty
normal.
And I know lots of other prettynormal men.
(32:19):
Yeah.
And this case was full of prettynormal men.
Yeah.
And just how these people with.
Families, daughters, sisters,mothers could dehumanize this
and feel such a sense ofentitlement and do whatever sort
of logical leaps to justify thisto themselves, to make it
(32:40):
acceptable.
Did they pay for it?
No.
No, it was just a ego grinding.
I don't think so.
I just wonder if there was anyfinancial gain for him.
Like, what's he getting out?
I don't understand what he gotout of that at all as a husband.
I just, I don't.
He did post the videos online.
So videos and pictures posted onthe internet.
(33:01):
So for likes and follows and,um, validation.
I don't know, like instantgratification, isn't it?
Um, Hmm.
I see.
I see.
I see.
So yeah, absolutely horrific andshe's incredible.
And I think this will be one ofthose stories that's really
lasting.
(33:22):
I really hope so, because thisis already a few weeks ago now,
didn't it?
It concluded just beforeChristmas.
And you're right, the BBC did agreat job of, Because I remember
the day where all theconvictions came and you know
when they like tweet?
Yeah, and it was just one afterthe other after the the the
scale of doing it like thatrather than here's boom here's a
(33:44):
list they were doing it inlifetime and the scale was
astronomical.
It was just so, it's neverending.
It's never ending.
It really emphasises it.
And of course there was anembargo on naming and giving
details of the accused until thetrial was over.
And this was around as well whenthe Al Fayed Harrods accusations
(34:05):
came out as well.
And like that was, and whenTrump got elected, that was
happening.
So we've got a U S president whohas openly assaulted women and
has been honest about that andopen about that.
Like this is what is interestingthat you think it's going to
last.
I I'm less certain, but I reallyhope so.
Logic dictates, it's got to.
(34:26):
Yeah, logic, I totally get that.
I think we should have like anannual Giselle day, like a
celebration on the day that thetrial ended.
But actually, she probablydoesn't want that.
She probably just wants her lifeto carry on, to just stop.
Yeah, let's see what sort oflife she can now recover and
make for herself.
(34:46):
I did read somewhere that shepurposely used her married name
in the trial.
So her grandchildren inparticular didn't feel, so they
had something to hold on to.
Because.
She has changed it back to hermaiden name now, but she didn't
want them to be ashamed of thename, and I think that, again,
that is testament to herstrength and the dignity and she
(35:08):
must be stretched beyond belief,but she's still beautifully
dignified throughout, yeah, wecan't really do it justice, I
don't think.
Everything I say I feel is justisn't enough, like, Oh, totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the sort of thing you needif you haven't followed it
closely or read about it, if youthink you can bear it.
I would encourage you to do so,particularly our male listeners.
(35:31):
It sort of pains me to say that,but give it a listen and just
let it sort of mull and sit withyou and realize the
implications.
Yeah.
Really feel that.
Feel that uncomfortableness.
Yeah, for sure.
Well done.
Oh, there we are.
for listening.
(35:52):
If you stuck with us throughthat, thank you very much.
please, comment, rate,subscribe, all the usual, if
you've been affected by any ofthe issues discussed in this
podcast, there are places toreach out to.
And I think maybe it might begood if we put some on our
website.
Insta page and Facebook.
We'll put some in the shownotes.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
(36:13):
And yeah, there's help.
A hundred percent.
You're not alone.
Thank you.
We'll have something a bitlighter next week.
We'll find something.
Thanks very much guys.
Bye.
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
My god, you guys love the stress, don't you?
You're like a wedding, baby, twohouse moves.
Insane.
I don't like messing about.
No, but you're just like all thestress in a really small amount
of time.
Let's do it.
All of it, bring it on.
All of it, all of it, all of it.
Funny.
Um, okay.
(00:29):
Hi Vicky.
Hi Simon.
How you doing?
I'm good, you look very breezy.
It's so hot in here, honestly.
So, so hot.
The nation is shaking.
Shivering.
It's just like an entirehousehold of, of heat is just
concentrated in this one room.
So funny.
(00:50):
I can't take my jumper off, Ihaven't got anything underneath,
it's so funny.
Oh no.
Well that'd be, it'd just be adifferent podcast.
A very different podcast, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so, I've got two shorterstories for you today.
Okay.
the sort of, kind of women of2024 sort of.
neither of them.
Well, actually one is one isquite positive in the end.
(01:13):
The other is, you've probablyheard about her and it was just
heartbreaking and dreadful andawful and it's going to be
difficult to take many positivesfrom it.
So we're going on an emotionalrollercoaster.
It's not even a rollercoaster,it's just emotional downhill for
the duration.
So if you want to tune out now,I'd recommend Ching Shih or the
(01:36):
Champagne Lady.
So the first lady is, MarleneFazo, F-E-J-Z-O.
Okay.
And she is an Americanscientist.
She, went to Brown and Harvard.
it's called a PhD.
She's a geneticist.
Okay.
Love that.
Already exciting.
I've always wanted to be thatkind of scientist.
(01:57):
It's insane.
The fact that your DNA is ablueprint.
It's just crazy.
And that one, one little thingin DNA could make you a dolphin.
It's so delicate, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm one third dolphin.
video3530181378 (02:14):
Thanks.
Bye bye.
Bye bye.
audio3530181378 (02:17):
So imagine waking up every morning, heart
pounding with dread, knowingthat the next 24 hours will be a
relentless battle against yourown body.
Every smell, every sight, everythought, a trigger for waves of
nausea that leave you gaspingfor air.
This is not a horror movie, it'sthe reality for many women who
suffer from something calledhyper omesis gravidarum, or HG
(02:37):
for short, conditions so severeit pushes them to the brink of
physical and mental exhaustion.
So HG is it was often dismissedas being morning sickness on
steroids.
So, morning sickness, verycommon.
About 70 percent of pregnantwomen have it.
and HG is a very extreme versionof that.
(03:00):
Okay.
And I mean, morning sicknessitself is almost a bit of a
misconception, because yeah, youhave it in the morning, but a
lot of the time you have it allthrough the day as well.
Of course.
And it's a sort of spectrum ofseverity.
Some people will get it minorlyand it can be fixed with a
biscuit.
And then all the way up to,hyperemesis gravidarum, HG,
which I think sort of onlyreally came to people's
(03:21):
attention when, Catherine,Princess of Wales, Kate
Middleton had it.
That's true, she washospitalized, wasn't she?
So she was hospitalized for it,yeah.
It's serious, not just becauseof how debilitating the,
sickness, the nausea can be, butalso because that then prevents
you from eating, prevents youfrom drinking, so you get
malnourished, you getdehydrated, and you, it can sort
(03:45):
of escalate to the point whereit then, risks not only your
health, but that of the foetusas well.
So it's a really seriouscondition.
But it's so often in the pastjust being dismissed as almost
psychosomatic or otherwise justexaggerating the symptoms.
Because it's women's health.
Because it's women's health.
A woman.
Yeah.
(04:06):
And it reminds me, I suppose thesort of closest reminder I've
got is, with endometriosis.
Yeah.
Where that'll so often bewritten off as, oh, it's just
period pain.
Oh, you're just, you're justcomplaining, you're exaggerating
the symptoms, et cetera.
When actually it's reallyserious.
Medical condition that needs anintervention and they don't get
(04:27):
it.
they just get dismissed by thedoctor.
So, Marlena she had twopregnancies.
Yeah.
Two pregnancies.
Yeah.
In her first one she had nausea,morning sickness.
Okay.
It was bad but manageable.
But during her second, she thendeveloped hg.
Constant vomiting, inability tokeep down water, really bad
(04:51):
fatigue.
It's just a constant oppressionto being able to live any sort
of normal life.
You know what this is making methink of is making me think of
our episode on Empress Matilda,who, even though it was in the
1100s, was not able to claimher, constituency, her monarchy.
(05:11):
And it was never said, Why?
But she was very early in herpregnancy and I You just think
morning sickness, don't you?
I didn't even think, you know,she could have had something
like this.
Absolutely.
And again, it was just nevereven considered for historians
that it might be something to dowith her pregnancy.
(05:31):
It was, she didn't want theempire.
She wasn't bothered about it.
She didn't have enoughinclination to go and get it.
And actually it could have beensomething like this.
You just can't understate howcrippling this is.
I mean a lot of the symptomsseem in line with the sort of
chronic fatigue symptom, whichagain has been dismissed for
decades, but then post Covid wehave long Covid symptoms, so
(05:54):
suddenly it has become moreaccepted.
Just an awful thing to happenwhen you're already feeling
vulnerable, when you've alreadygot a lot of stuff changing.
And it's a big change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a massive change.
Um, so she was sick in her firstpregnancy, but then HG sort of
hit, in her second pregnancyreally, really bad.
(06:14):
And.
She saw doctors.
She knew it wasn't, wasn'tright.
but the doctors were of no help.
They dismissed it.
They said she was exaggerating.
She was offered little in theway of effective treatment.
Um, it was this like cycle of,you feel nauseous, you can't eat
(06:35):
or drink, you get dehydrated.
That makes you more nauseous.
You go downhill.
And this is modern medicine,right?
This is like 10 years ago.
Wow.
Yeah, modern medicine.
And it's not even that theseconditions just get dismissed as
an exaggeration, it's thatoften, and throughout history as
well, women are made to feelshame.
Like it's their fault.
(06:57):
Like period symptoms and things,uh, we'll, we'll shun you away.
We'll shut you away for a fewdays.
Cause we don't want to get it.
It's a shameful thing that hasto be hidden.
Honestly.
I've got so many flashbackscoming with my time with doctors
and, you know, not beinglistened to and being scared to
say what your symptoms arebecause you just know you're
going to be judged and you justknow you're going to be
(07:17):
dismissed and, and I would sayI'm pretty average.
You know, I'm not one who's beento a doctor's especially mm-hmm
And yeah.
I've got so many little ding,ding, ding examples that are
coming through.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it was sort of written off as amanifestation of anxiety.
No, she wasn't having it.
It's like, this is not just inmy head.
(07:38):
Yeah.
she refused to accept it and sheknew that there must be some
biological reason for why thisis happening.
There has to be something goingon.
I think I'm right in saying thatshe ended up losing that baby,
because of this HG, which wentuntreated and the fetus just
couldn't take the stress.
She was hospitalized, hooked toan IV.
(07:59):
But the doctors remainedbaffled, whether it was
conscious bafflement orsubconscious sort of
discrimination against her.
But She got through it and wasjust fueled by this harrowing
experience she'd had during thispregnancy with a determination
to help other women, with thiscondition and get to the bottom
of what's actually going on.
(08:20):
Um, yeah.
Anger fuels action sometimes,doesn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
She had some training.
Oh, so this was actually back inthe late 90s.
This happened.
So about 25 years ago Which along time in medicine.
It's a long time.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
So she started to research andHG Women's health issue.
(08:43):
Of course, it was massivelyunderstudied.
I'll tell you what else you'llfind particularly surprising.
funding was scarce.
Simon, the revelations you'regiving me right now.
It's shock after shock, isn'tit?
Um, and like the medical, themedical community as a whole
believe in its severity.
(09:04):
They weren't convinced about it,they just put it down to
whinging and, Marlena actuallyworked, for a cancer research.
company.
Cool.
Very cool.
But decided to leave that andfocus her research on HG
hyperemesis.
So this was already, she wasalready science y, already
stabbed.
She was already science y andwanted to just pivot to putting
(09:27):
her efforts into HG.
And she knew that if she leftthe cancer research place, other
people would research cancer.
That would keep on going.
But if she didn't leave, nobodyelse was going to pick up the
baton of HG.
Actually what it does remind meof as well is Viagra, which was,
initially Heavily researched.
(09:48):
Heavily funded.
Well, it was originally, lookedat as, something to help heart
conditions and they gave it toso many drug trials.
I remember this.
Yes.
They gave it to a group of menand said, see if it helps your
condition and they came back andthey said, well, it doesn't help
my condition, but I'll tell youwhat, it has helped an enormous
(10:09):
amount.
Um.
Sexy, sexy.
Yeah, exactly.
So then it got commercializedfor that, but there has been
research in recent years abouthow Viagra can help enormously.
with sort of period cramps,period symptoms and everything.
It's really effective used onwomen for, period symptoms.
(10:31):
But they never spotted thiscause none of the people in the
drugs trial were women.
Yeah.
And it's every medicine.
I can't stress this to the womenlistening to this podcast
enough.
Your health is not researched.
There is nothing that it'sgetting better, but all the
medicines you're having, allthose trials they've been
through, all men.
(10:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then when sort of abreakthrough to find that
actually this could be useful,actually getting the funding to
then have a full trial and thefull research on it is almost
impossible.
Um, and it's maybe changing veryslowly, but it's far slower than
it should be.
So yeah, Marlena scientifictraining behind a few by
(11:15):
personal experience.
She was.
persevering with this, she wasgoing to get to the bottom of
HG.
So she started reaching out toother women who had this
condition, collected theirstories, collected their medical
histories.
And with her training as ageneticist, most importantly,
she collected their DNA.
She thought the key to unlockingthis must be hidden in their DNA
(11:39):
somewhere, because this is areal thing that's happening and
it's ruining people's lives.
she wanted to get to the bottom.
So initially she was just goingaround finding people who'd had
it and asking them for a swab ofsaliva.
The classic system.
The classic system.
In terms of, medical research.
It's, this is quite a laborintensive way to do it and it's
(12:02):
not enough of a sample pool.
And it's not controlled either,is it?
It's just these women have thesethings.
Yeah.
So she launched a campaign toget these saliva samples.
She sent out thousands of DNAkits across the country, did
what she could to research it,pulled over the data patterns
and things.
But her real breakthrough camewhen she came across, probably
(12:24):
heard of it, an Ancestrycompany, DNA testing company,
23andMe.
I do, yeah.
Which is, I think, bigger in theStates than it is here in the
UK.
She spoke with them and theyreally got on board with her,
planned with her cause andagreed that they would include
in their questionnaire,questions about HG.
(12:46):
Okay.
So, suddenly She went fromhaving to post out swabs to get
people's saliva, to having anenormous database of women
reporting that they'd sufferedwith this.
And she had their DNA, and shecould use it for the research.
So And it was all done legally,right?
All done legally, yeah.
Yeah, immediately my head's likeSo she began poring over all of
(13:12):
this data, searching for thesepatterns, the sort of genetic
variations, that could indicateand explain why some people, why
some women are more susceptibleto this illness.
She pinpointed the gene.
It's a gene, GDF15, which playsa really crucial role in
(13:35):
regulating nausea and vomiting,and it's to do with appetite as
well.
And she found that women withcertain variations of this gene
are far, far more likely tosuffer from HG.
Like, she'd, was almost thiswatershed moment for her,
because she had proven that itwas a physiological condition,
not a psychological condition,not something that's been
(13:56):
measured.
Yes! Pre measured in the day.
Like, here it is, I'vepinpointed, this is what causes
it.
and now we can do somethingabout it, like we've, we found
out what caused it, now we canstart working on a fix.
There's no better feeling thanit's not in your head.
Yeah.
It's just nothing better, it'sthe best line.
If you're unwell to begin with,you don't need to be gaslit as
(14:16):
well.
Yeah.
Just 101, innit?
Just a bit of empathy would go along way.
Yeah, totally.
One of our main findings wasthat this gene is responsible
for the production of a hormonewhich you produce.
loads of during pregnancy.
Ah, that's interesting.
But with a variation in this,before you're pregnant, you
(14:36):
produce very, very little of it.
Yeah.
And they suspect that this hitof going from very, very little
to having absolutely loads iswhat sort of shocks your body
into having this, this HG orthis nausea, this morning
sickness response.
So she's now working ondeveloping drugs that increase
the production of this hormonegradually.
(14:57):
In the run up to you gettingpregnant so that when you do get
pregnant, it's less of a jumpand therefore has less of an
impact on you.
Mm-hmm.
She's gone on to co-found, theHyperemesis Education and
Research Foundation.
The her foundation.
Yeah.
Which Clever is just a real, hasgotta be something, isn't it?
Which is a real lifeline forwomen struggling with hg.
she's sort of tireless advocatefor it, raising awareness of the
(15:20):
condition, pushing for bettertreatments, pushing for.
a better awareness of it amongsthealthcare professionals.
She sounds an angel, like shesounds an angel.
Incredible.
Amazing.
I'm just like giving a voice tothese people who've been
silenced and denied and gaslitfor so, so long.
Yeah.
And where is this?
She's American.
She's American.
(15:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Whose health system isnotoriously, even more
difficult.
Yeah.
It's a beast.
So yeah, good for her, that'sinsane.
That's great, isn't it?
So she's persevered, used herown personal issues in
combination with her trainingand everything to really push on
(16:03):
and she's still working on ittoday.
and I suppose really the, thecloser for this little mini
expose on Marlena, if you arestruggling with HG, check out
the Her Foundation website andyeah.
Now married to a currentlypregnant woman who has had
really bad morning sickness.
It's such an isolating thing,but you are not alone.
(16:27):
You're not imagining it.
There is help.
You should talk to someone aboutyour symptoms.
Yes.
And tell your friends.
Tell anyone that will listen toyou because if you're suffering
it, your friends might sufferfrom it.
And at least then they know thatthat's an option.
And this is the thing.
Like so many, I say woman, somany things you, you think.
It's just me.
(16:48):
And it's never, tell yourgirlfriends, tell your mum, tell
any female that will listen,that will listen to you.
And, yeah.
Spread that because, we're thefirst generation, I think, who
talks about smear tests andtalking about all that and try
and normalise it because there'sso much there that you need to
know about your own body.
So yeah, just talk and talk andtalk and talk.
(17:10):
Just a body and it's just a bodythat does things that bodies do.
It's not something to beembarrassed or ashamed of.
Just talk about it, get it outthere.
And you'll feel better.
You'll feel better tellingsomeone.
Yeah, definitely.
I do.
Yeah.
And it might be that they'resuffering with it or it might be
that they They know someone.
They know someone and even bysharing it you may make someone
(17:32):
else not feel alone in this.
Or recognise something inthemselves.
and if you do speak to someone,I'm not knocking our local
doctors.
I haven't any complaints, butSpeak to your midwife.
Speak to the midwife.
Find out the, there's usuallylike an emergency gynecology,
section, unit in the hospitalthat will help with this, who
(17:56):
are aware of it and will be onit, certainly here in the UK.
Don't be a martyr.
Public Service Announcement.
We're very good at these.
That's our little PSA for today.
Yeah, absolutely.
Fab! So, that's actually quitean uplifting one.
I'm gonna, as the sort of secondhalf of this double build mini,
(18:18):
I would like to talk aboutGiselle Pellico.
Yeah, I'm going to be discussingpretty severe, sexual assault,
sexual abuse, the justicesystem, drugging.
spousal abuse, all of these.
So if you've got little ones orif this is going to be
(18:41):
particularly triggering for you,I would advise, uh, rate, like,
and subscribe and we'll see younext time.
Anyway, and we'll see you nexttime.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's an important story though.
Let's go.
Yeah.
I think, Giselle Pellico, she'sactually, that was her married
name, which she's now dismissed.
is my woman of 2024 just for herastounding, bravery and bucking
(19:09):
the norm, bucking the trend andjust the way she's conducted
herself in, it's just horrific.
It's absolutely horrific.
It was about September lastyear.
My main source of this from, forthis is four months of reporting
and following the story, reallyclosely.
It's been.
(19:29):
compelling and horrifying inequal measure.
Giselle was, lived in a smallFrench town called Mazan, which
from the outside seemed like atotally ordinary small town,
full of totally ordinary peopleand builders and plasterers and
bank managers and shopassistants and just a town, a
(19:51):
totally nondescript, normalFrench town.
And she lived there with herhusband.
She was a loving wife, devotedmother, son and a daughter.
She was a respected member ofher community.
But behind all of this, and shedidn't know about it, was just
(20:13):
an absolute betrayal andviolation, which when it came
out has shocked, I would sayshocked the world, but
particularly shocked France.
Yeah, it shocked the world,100%.
It definitely did, it stretchedand you can see that in like the
subculture movements that havehappened that people are
redesigning time of the yearmagazine covers with her face on
(20:35):
and, if Instagram's your thing,there's a huge commentary on
there of women who, from alldifferent cultures all over the
world, standing with Giselle.
She was born in 1952, had astable, stable, warm, earlier
years, met her future husband,Dominique, in her youth and they
(20:56):
built a life together, as manypeople do, many people wish to.
They raised two children, haddecades of what she thought was
a happy marriage, normal homelife, just very typical.
But she didn't know thatDominique was a, a total
predator.
Just hiding in plain sight.
in 2020, Dominique was arrestedfor upskirting.
(21:22):
So, upskirting is where you takea photo of a woman's skirt.
Um, he And got illegalized solate.
Yeah, it was only a few yearsago in the UK, wasn't it?
Yeah, 2018, something like that,horrendously late.
Yeah, I remember at the timethere were lots of stories
about, like people beingupskirted at music festivals and
Glastonbury and things.
And off the back of that, therewas a lot of campaigning and
(21:43):
finally made illegal.
I think it was made illegal inScotland before England.
Yeah.
But yeah, the police arrestedhim over this.
Okay.
And he's Used his phone to takepictures.
They thought maybe he's donethis before.
There was a criminalpsychologist interviewed him
over this particular crime, butjust knew something wasn't right
(22:05):
with him.
Couldn't pinpoint it, but justgot the impression that this was
a man with two very clear andvery different sides to his
personality and that he wasdoing a very good job of
performing as this.
Typical, laid back, nice,genial.
Bumbly man, yeah.
He's lovely, but he really, hehad such a strong inclination
(22:28):
that there was this other sideto him.
So he, encouraged the police toinvestigate further.
That's interesting.
And the police then looked onhis computer, um, and what they
found on his computer was a verywell catalogued, collection of
videos and images spanning aperiod of nine years of him and
(22:52):
other people raping his wife,Giselle, while she appeared to
be, in all of the videos,unconscious.
So the investigation got deeper.
Obviously, this is a moreserious issue now than
upskirting.
The word that really stood outfor that, for me, that was well
categorized.
(23:12):
This is just a dirty littlething.
This is like you said, acompletely different
personality, like a completepart of his identity.
Totally.
This is not an opportunistcrime.
This is not someone takingadvantage of a drunk woman on a
night out.
This is.
Someone who has meticulouslyplanned and organised and
(23:34):
arranged this over and overagain.
Yeah, that's, it actually sentme into a bit, like a bit of a
shiver.
Yeah, the idea that, like howmany hours did he invest in
that?
Yeah.
So it's like nine years that hewas doing this for.
Nine years that Giselle hadabsolutely no idea about it.
So, what would happen is hewould slip drugs into her food
(23:57):
or drink.
Giselle would go unconscious andhe would then invite other men
around within around a 40 mileradius of Mazan.
And he would get men in, hewould advertise on particular
websites.
to come and rape his wife.
A particular website.
And he would then film it and,he would film it, catalogue it,
(24:20):
and we're not talking about oneor two, this is dozens, this is
over 50 strangers that heinvited to do this.
Giselle, such was theeffectiveness of the drugs, had
absolutely no idea that this washappening.
She knew something was going on.
was up, but she couldn't explainthe medical condition.
She couldn't explain why she wassore, why she ached, why she
(24:43):
kept getting UTIs, these sort ofrecurring things.
Hearing this straight off theback of Marlena is so, like,
their stories match so well.
Because again, it's women notbeing listened to.
And, this surely should ringsome alarm bells.
If you have, I can't speak onbehalf of the medical
(25:05):
profession, but if you havesomething, something
unexplained, there has to be anexplanation.
You can't just write this off asa, that science is a
fundamental, isn't it?
Yeah.
It had to be a reason behindthis.
It might've been, I don't knowif she, I don't even know how
you could have an inclinationthat this was happening, such is
(25:26):
the horrific nature of it.
You would never think that.
You're safe in your own home, inyour own bed, with your own
husband.
Where on earth would your braingo?
Oh, people are traveling from a40 mile radius.
Yeah.
To attack me.
You just wouldn't, would you?
You just wouldn't.
No.
Um, so, these details were foundby the police and investigated
(25:50):
and the investigation took along time because there were so
many, so many abusers.
Okay.
there's over 50 men.
Fortunately, Dominique hadrecorded all of them, so they
could all be identified.
They're all on film.
And then finally, last year,2024, the trial began.
(26:13):
Now, the sort of the norm inthese cases is that the woman
has anonymity.
Yep.
And, and reporting is notallowed, particularly in France,
reporting is not allowed onthese cases.
it's, so it goes back for me tothis victim blaming, victim
shaming, for some reason thevictim should be ashamed about
something that someone else hasdone to them.
(26:35):
Even though this is not her,this is not her fault.
She should not be ashamed of it,but so often, particularly with
sexual assault cases, this iswhat happens.
And people don't want to openthemselves up to the usual
accusations that come along oflike, Oh, it wasn't, Oh, it's
your fault for being drunk.
It's your fault for wearing thatis et cetera.
But she refused the anonymityand allowed full reporting of
(26:58):
the trial and for all of herdetails to be out there.
Um, it's incredible.
just the strength that must'vetaken to.
Walk into that courtroom, andshe was there every day.
In that courtroom, sat oppositeher husband, sat opposite all of
the accused, listening to thesestories, watching the replays of
(27:20):
what her husband had done.
And that was a big part of theprosecution is because these men
have been recorded, so there'sno, there was no possibility of
denial by them that they hadbeen involved.
I think this is the reason whyshe's Woman of 2024 because that
testament to that, hercharacter, because she'll be
(27:43):
ripping apart inside in ways Ican't even imagine.
She'll be absolutely torn down.
Yeah.
And then, to make a historicallysignificant decision that,
ripples.
It will ripple through the globeof other decisions being made by
other women to make sure thatthey're stood up for in legal
(28:04):
systems.
And that is awe inspiring.
It's, it's out of this world shemade that decision.
Yeah.
On her own, independently, noone coerced her into doing that,
I think it's, yeah, it's uh, thegravity.
Yeah, and she would have knownwhat she was getting involved in
(28:25):
by going to the court case everyday.
But to find that sort of innerstrength and conviction to
actually not hide away from itand show to the world that she
is a, survivor of it and thatshe is coming out the other side
of this.
When her entire life, her entireworld has been undermined,
ripped apart.
(28:45):
Yeah, like the whole concept ofher loving marriage was a flop.
She waived her right toanonymity, story shared around
the world, I mean, in terms oftrue crime reporting, this was a
hell of a story to be reported,a difficult read every day that
there was an update, but justsuch a powerful statement from
(29:06):
her, she actually said, I am nota victim, I am a survivor, One
of the sort of biggest impactsthat it seems to have had is the
normality and mundanity of themen who were accused.
These were not You think of likethe image, I don't remember the
sort of program Brass Eye fromyears ago and so, so many times
(29:28):
like a sex pest is alwayspictured in an anorak and
creeping around in an alleyway.
With the moustache and theskinny and the yeah, I don't
know.
Creepy people look creepy.
Creepy creepy.
Actually, these people didn'tlook creepy.
These were normal men.
These were men who had, one ofthe things I find most sickening
is they had daughters.
(29:49):
And yet they were, everyone's,you know, got a mum, lots of
people have daughters andsisters.
But what she's done in makingthat decision that we just spoke
about was the world, Women haveknown that sex pests look
normal.
We've known that for centuries.
The world didn't know that.
(30:10):
And I think that is justanother, string to her bow of
what she's achieved and now theworld hopefully listens and
should know because they wereelectricians weren't they,
firefighters, civil servants,electricians, plumbers,
firefighters, shop workers,Just, just your town.
(30:30):
A normal, totally normal town,normal people with normal family
lives.
And then behind this, I mean,the main defense that a lot of
them tried, some just, pledguilty to it.
Because of the video.
So they couldn't deny that partof it.
The main part that they tried todeny was the rape aspect of it.
And they claimed that it waspart of a sort of sexual fantasy
(30:55):
and she was pretending to beunconscious.
That defense did not fly.
And they've, yeah.
I'm pretty sure that most, ifnot all of them have been
sentenced to prison time.
Yeah.
and just the movement that shestarted, this sort of
empowerment that she's given towomen to reclaim their lives,
(31:15):
question.
Reclaim, love that, reclaim.
Actually, this is weird, and I'mgoing to stand up for it.
I'm not going to be the victim.
yeah, I think it's led to legalreforms in France, so extra
protections for victims ofsexual violence, holding
perpetrators accountable, theactual definition of rape in
France was slightly Was it?
(31:36):
Oh.
So they had some work to do inthe prosecution to fit the
crimes into that definition.
Oh, seriously?
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't know that.
But So she's up against a notfit for purpose justice system
as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but came out of itvictorious.
I think both in the legal senseand dignified.
(31:58):
Dignity is the big thing here.
I don't really know how toconclude this other than she's
absolutely incredible.
I find it harrowing how I am aman.
That's not the bit I findharrowing.
Um, but like, I am a man, Iwould consider myself pretty
normal.
And I know lots of other prettynormal men.
(32:19):
Yeah.
And this case was full of prettynormal men.
Yeah.
And just how these people with.
Families, daughters, sisters,mothers could dehumanize this
and feel such a sense ofentitlement and do whatever sort
of logical leaps to justify thisto themselves, to make it
(32:40):
acceptable.
Did they pay for it?
No.
No, it was just a ego grinding.
I don't think so.
I just wonder if there was anyfinancial gain for him.
Like, what's he getting out?
I don't understand what he gotout of that at all as a husband.
I just, I don't.
He did post the videos online.
So videos and pictures posted onthe internet.
(33:01):
So for likes and follows and,um, validation.
I don't know, like instantgratification, isn't it?
Um, Hmm.
I see.
I see.
I see.
So yeah, absolutely horrific andshe's incredible.
And I think this will be one ofthose stories that's really
lasting.
(33:22):
I really hope so, because thisis already a few weeks ago now,
didn't it?
It concluded just beforeChristmas.
And you're right, the BBC did agreat job of, Because I remember
the day where all theconvictions came and you know
when they like tweet?
Yeah, and it was just one afterthe other after the the the
scale of doing it like thatrather than here's boom here's a
(33:44):
list they were doing it inlifetime and the scale was
astronomical.
It was just so, it's neverending.
It's never ending.
It really emphasises it.
And of course there was anembargo on naming and giving
details of the accused until thetrial was over.
And this was around as well whenthe Al Fayed Harrods accusations
(34:05):
came out as well.
And like that was, and whenTrump got elected, that was
happening.
So we've got a U S president whohas openly assaulted women and
has been honest about that andopen about that.
Like this is what is interestingthat you think it's going to
last.
I I'm less certain, but I reallyhope so.
Logic dictates, it's got to.
(34:26):
Yeah, logic, I totally get that.
I think we should have like anannual Giselle day, like a
celebration on the day that thetrial ended.
But actually, she probablydoesn't want that.
She probably just wants her lifeto carry on, to just stop.
Yeah, let's see what sort oflife she can now recover and
make for herself.
(34:46):
I did read somewhere that shepurposely used her married name
in the trial.
So her grandchildren inparticular didn't feel, so they
had something to hold on to.
Because.
She has changed it back to hermaiden name now, but she didn't
want them to be ashamed of thename, and I think that, again,
that is testament to herstrength and the dignity and she
(35:08):
must be stretched beyond belief,but she's still beautifully
dignified throughout, yeah, wecan't really do it justice, I
don't think.
Everything I say I feel is justisn't enough, like, Oh, totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the sort of thing you needif you haven't followed it
closely or read about it, if youthink you can bear it.
I would encourage you to do so,particularly our male listeners.
(35:31):
It sort of pains me to say that,but give it a listen and just
let it sort of mull and sit withyou and realize the
implications.
Yeah.
Really feel that.
Feel that uncomfortableness.
Yeah, for sure.
Well done.
Oh, there we are.
for listening.
(35:52):
If you stuck with us throughthat, thank you very much.
please, comment, rate,subscribe, all the usual, if
you've been affected by any ofthe issues discussed in this
podcast, there are places toreach out to.
And I think maybe it might begood if we put some on our
website.
Insta page and Facebook.
We'll put some in the shownotes.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
(36:13):
And yeah, there's help.
A hundred percent.
You're not alone.
Thank you.
We'll have something a bitlighter next week.
We'll find something.
Thanks very much guys.
Bye.
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
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