February 18, 2025 • 38 mins
The Remarkable Reign of Queen Zenobia: Defying Rome and Commanding an Empire
Got a story? Emails us at shechangedhistory@gmail.com
Other episodes mentioned today: Ching Shih and Empress Matilda
In this episode of 'She Changed History,' we dive into the extraordinary story of Queen Zenobia of Palmyra, who lived nearly 2000 years ago. Zenobia challenged the might of the Roman Empire, expanding her territory. Known for her intelligence, strategic prowess, and diplomatic skills, she led her army with unmatched determination and gained significant power despite the constraints of her time. However, her ambition eventually caught the attention of the Roman Emperor Aurelian, leading to a series of bloody battles. The episode highlights the historical significance of women in leadership roles and aims to correct the often beauty-focused narrative surrounding women in ancient history.
Sources today are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odaenathus
https://www.worldhistory.org/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century/
https://www.britannica.com/place/Syria/Hellenistic-and-Roman-periods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzBbpCG7gvM Zenobia the Warrior Queen of the Palmyrene Empire
https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1692/roman-armor--weapons/
https://www.worldhistory.org/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century/
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/zenobia-queen-of-palmyra/
https://www.worldhistory.org/zenobia/
https://althistory.fandom.com/wiki/Zenobia_(Vastator_Orbis)
00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:15 Celebrating Women in STEM
01:12 Introducing Queen Zenobia
03:14 Zenobia's Early Life and Heritage
04:49 Marriage and Rise to Power
10:34 Zenobia's Leadership and Influence
14:41 The Crisis of the Third Century
16:59 Zenobia's Expansion and Military Campaigns
17:43 March to Roman Egypt
18:52 Zenobia's Tactical Maneuvers
20:38 Diplomacy and Expansion
25:25 Aurelian's Response
28:36 The Final Battles
33:10 Zenobia's Capture and Legacy
34:57 Reflection on Women in History
37:59 Closing Remarks
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1172871344 (00:08):
yeah.
I've forgotten about the floorbackground.
That's exciting.
Keep you pepped up.
Yeah.
Also, um, Happy InternationalDay of Women and Girls in
Science.
Oh, I didn't know that.
What a great day.
Yeah.
February the 11th.
It started in 2015 by the UN topromote women and girls in STEM.
(00:30):
Oh man, we could have saved lastweek's, um, story.
Oh no, we did release it today.
So we've released a STEM storyon a STEM day.
Perfect.
Hey, oh my god, I mean, look atthat.
I made a real name.
We're better than we think.
Yeah, for sure.
You don't even Hi, Vicky.
(00:53):
Hi, Simon.
How are you doing?
I'm good.
How are you?
Yeah, very well.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Welcome.
Welcome to She Changed History.
Hello.
And it's Vicky's turn today.
It is.
You can sit back and relax.
talk at you for a bit.
What have you got for us today?
We're going right back.
(01:13):
So we're going 2, 000 years ago.
Wow, this is even pre Victorian.
How dare we?
How dare we?
I know I'm going to push you outof that comfort zone, you're
going to have to stretch alittle bit, but hopefully it'll
be a good one.
Um, got a little intro.
She commanded legions, dared tochallenge the Roman Empire, and
(01:36):
defied expectations at everyturn.
Her name was Zenobia, and herstory is one of ambition and the
relentless pursuit of power.
From the sands of Palmyra to theglittering courts of Rome, we
unravel the life and legend ofthis extraordinary woman.
Join us as we explore the riseand fall of Queen Zenobia, a
(01:57):
warrior whose legacy echoesthrough the ages.
Wicked.
So it's power, it's royalty,it's transcension, it's all of
those words.
And you've even got a lovelyphoto of her as well.
That's great.
That is a painting and, um,sorry, I didn't mean to sound so
corrective.
They didn't have photography 2,000 years ago, Simon.
(02:19):
Sorry to correct you.
I know.
That was devastating.
That sounded really bitchy, I'msorry.
Uh, Simon, they didn't havephotography 2, 000 years ago.
Don't be silly please.
You're on a history podcast.
but that is her surveying herempire.
So this is a painting of herallegedly at her peak.
(02:41):
Like the Lion King where it'slike everything, the light will
touch.
It's very much like that forsure.
Nice.
so lots of sources today, ABritannica article, a really
good YouTube video, calledZenobia, the Warrior Queen of
the Palm Marineau Marine Empire.
lots of world history.orgarticles.
They seem to have got loads onthis kind of area of history.
(03:02):
So that was really helpful and,there was an alternative
history.
Dot com article as well.
Oh, cool.
Sure.
Good.
Yeah.
we're gonna have to learn a lot.
I don't, I didn't know muchabout this area.
Do you know much Not really.
No.
Okay.
So we're in Syria.
So Palm Myra is a city in modernday Syria.
z Noia was born two forty eightyin Palmyra.
(03:28):
Palmyra is like a Romanprovince, is part of the empire.
That therefore makes Zenobia acitizen of Rome.
There is a lovely description inone of the articles that says
she had a flashing cold blackeyes, pearly white teeth, dark
Middle Eastern skin and wavybrunette hair reflecting her
(03:48):
part Greek and part Arablineage.
She was born into an Arab tribewhich meant that she was infused
with, Arabic.
tribal politics.
There's also just a casuallittle claim that because of her
Greek heritage, that could betracked all the way back to
Cleopatra herself.
(04:10):
Wow.
Yeah.
With all of this, because it is2000 years ago, just a pinch of
salt on all those things.
I don't know if you're watchingapple cider vinegar on Netflix
at the minute, but it'sbasically about this girl who
made up so much stuff and, likereally dark stuff.
She made up that she had cancer,and now everything I read in the
news, I'm like, is this true?
Is this true?
(04:32):
So, she claims to be.
related to Cleopatra.
But we haven't got an official,who do you think you are,
verification of that?
I don't think so.
I haven't, I haven't gonethrough the archives.
Nice to believe though.
I think it's pretty cool, isn'tit?
If you're going to have aheritage, make sure it's
Cleopatra.
a really key day in Zenobia'slife is, 258 AD when she marries
(04:54):
Ordinathus.
Ordinathus, has a lot of, powerin the province.
they marry and they have atleast one son called Valbaethus,
and Ordinathus has a son fromhis previous marriage as well.
So it's like a blended familysituation.
she's marrying into power.
(05:14):
That's it.
So he rules this region.
And parts that extend over that.
So it's like a bit of the RomanEmpire.
So she's ruling.
Do we know, like, what sort ofrole she would have?
I don't know, was she merely atrophy wife or was she actually
getting involved in the action?
She got involved heavy, reallyheavy.
(05:35):
Oh wow, okay.
And that is the piece of thestory that kind of links to how
she rose.
to power basically.
so it was very much a teameffort to understand like the
power they had.
You kind of need to understand alittle bit about Palmyra itself.
So, like I said, it's in modernday Syria.
So you're talking like theTurkey region of Iraq, Lebanon
(05:56):
around there.
It's an oasis, that area, whichmeans that it's got loads of
fertile soil, which is amazing.
And that's what their economyrelies on.
It kind of relies on this today.
So you're producing off theland.
So that's wine, Um, Olives,vegetables, fruits, nuts, wool,
because your animals can live onthe land.
And because of where it waspositioned, it was a really
(06:18):
important trading hub on whatthey call the Silk Road.
Have you heard of the Silk Road?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So that is 4, 000 miles long andit goes through Europe and, to
Asia and it was a trade routefrom about the second century BC
to the mid 15th century AD, so areally long time.
And the reason it was called theSilk Road is because the trade
(06:42):
tended to be in silk andtextiles, which were produced in
China, traveled along the way.
Palmyra was on this route, andthat's where, you could pay your
taxes.
So that's why it was so rich.
They charged taxes to use theroad, and they also let the
travelers rest there.
Yeah, like a really key hubalong the way.
(07:05):
Yep, trading post and because ofthat it influenced different
types of cultures.
The architecture you can see hasbeen influenced by this time,
like you can see Romanarchitecture that is still there
today, which is reallyinteresting.
So.
You're in power, you're marriedto someone in power in this
hubbub on the Silk Road.
Yeah, she's giving me slightvibes of Ching Shih there.
(07:26):
I know! Marrying the rightperson, but also getting
involved.
Very much in role.
So, the reason she got involvedis because, Ordinathus is a bit
of a, um, he's a bit of acharacter in himself.
He's Oh God! He's not like thisquiet, stoic kind of just sits
back and lets, you know, he'squite hands on in his rule.
(07:50):
So the character is what theycall the kid at school who sets
fire to the library.
That's what we're talking abouttoday.
So there was a key event reallyearly on their marriage, so 227
AD.
the Sassanid Persians, which wasled by a guy called Shapur I,
who was known as the King ofKings of Iran.
He blocked the Silk Road,preventing Romans from accessing
(08:14):
their silk.
Um, it said in some articles,their beloved silk, but I think
it was probably more stop themcollecting their taxes.
That's what really stuck.
The Roman emperor at the timewas called Valerian.
He tried to fight Shapur um,tried to fight this army off and
(08:35):
he failed.
So Ordonathus took it uponthemselves to fight him.
He was like, well, I'm not, youknow, you can fail, but I'm
actually going to get my guysand rally the troops.
now, crucially is the word thatis stated here, crucially, this
was after he tried to make analliance with Shapur.
So he was, he tried to getChopin on side, and then when
(08:55):
that didn't work, he was like,well, stuff you anyway, I'm
going to tell you off to theRoman emperor and we're going to
fight this, you know, tell youoff to the Roman emperor.
Yeah.
He's like, I'm going to tell onyou if you don't want to make an
alliance with, yeah, if youdon't want to make an alliance
with me, I'm telling.
So that's basically whathappened.
So he tried to make an alliance,Then he fought back.
(09:18):
Um, and this did work.
So he successfully pushedShapur's, forces over the
Euphrates Tis river, which runsthrough Syria today.
If you Google that river, it isfricking stunning.
It is absolutely gorgeous.
Such a special part of theworld.
And then what he did then, orDeneithis, which just shows
these kind of character aspects,Having tried to go around the
(09:41):
Emperor's back, then said to theEmperor, Oh, you know what?
I did you a favor there.
I managed to run him out foryou.
I think, I think I did reallywell there.
You know, just, owe me, owe mein the future.
Don't worry about it.
Just owe me.
He's sort of already acting notnecessarily against the Roman
Empire, but maybe not totallyadhering to the agreed power
(10:05):
structure there.
Yes! Like the Roman Emperorcouldn't, get rid of the King of
Kings.
You know, you've got to step up,haven't you?
Yeah, hold that thought, becauseit's so important in the future.
for his service of, shoving offShapur, Ordonathus was made the
governor of the entire easternpart of the Roman Empire.
So, that's his, thank you.
(10:27):
over time he gained enoughpower, to rule almost
independently as Rome and thatwas with Zenobia as queen.
She was very active in thisgrowth of this empire and this
strategy.
because she had loads of skills,she was fluent in Greek, Latin,
Amharic, Egyptian.
Because of all that and also herclaim to heritage of Cleopatra
(10:48):
the seventh, she had like thisinterconnectedness kind of
network going on.
She enjoyed hunting.
So she was one of the lads,basically.
She enjoyed what they called thehunt, and they called that the
sport of kings back then.
And that was a really big thingin Persian.
Arab lands, it turns out.
It turned out that she'd prefer,rather than being in a carriage,
(11:10):
she prefer to be on horsebackwith the troops basically.
So she would travel with,whether it be a horse or a
camel.
So like culturally she's.
one of the people.
She can blend into all of these,uh, different, different areas,
different tribes that she rulesover, and she's getting involved
with them in a sort of agrittier way.
(11:33):
It creates respect, right?
Yeah, definitely.
It creates a reputation.
So she got this kind of fame.
and she walked by foot at thehead of the troops as well.
So she wasn't like at the backbeing paraded through.
She was at the helm.
She could also out drink any ofher soldiers.
That's where it comes from.
(11:53):
Okay.
That's the power.
Yeah.
She was considered better atthem than hunting and because
Ordonathus is quite a character,she also got a reputation for
commanding self control.
She was very poised, verycollected.
All the things you want in aleader.
Yeah.
I think.
So, she was very active becauseshe had skills to grow this
(12:14):
empire.
Then her husband dies, as withevery story I tell.
So, um, I don't know why, theyjust come to me and they, oh
well then the husband dies.
You gravitate towards them,yeah.
In 267 ad, um, both Ordona andhis son were assassinated by his
(12:36):
nephew, so this is classic RomanEmpire stuff where they just
power struggle, just killingeveryone.
That's the only answer.
The nephew was the only relativewho laid claim to the pal Miron
throne.
Mm-hmm But what the nephewdidn't count on was Signia.
Mm-hmm rallied her husband'sforces having gained their
respect and quickly squashedthis idea of a rebellion.
(12:59):
Like the nephew had a go atrebellion and she was like, nah
mate, not happening.
So all of her behavior up untilnow has come back to, to serve
her well.
Yep.
She's like, I can do this.
I want to do this.
Yeah.
I'm not letting you do it,especially after you've just
killed.
Yeah, like what an idiot is thenephew.
Surely he saw how badass shewas.
I know, but she's a woman.
(13:20):
Oh yes, sorry.
I can take you, poor lady.
so this was the son from thefirst marriage who was
assassinated.
So Zenobia still has her tenyear old son, Valberthus.
And she, the idea is that Youknow, like with Matilda, we
spoke about, she would lookafter for her child.
They call that the role ofregent.
(13:41):
So she took on this, shemaintained all her late
husband's policies.
and she did the job.
She did all the things you wouldwant a.
leader to do.
she was also very clever becauseshe positioned herself with
intellectuals and philosophersand people with high standing to
advise her.
So rather than just like thebrutest or the loudest or the
(14:02):
most extroverted soldiers, shewould surround her people who
she perceived to have expertise.
Hallmark of the best leaders.
I think so, just you, just thisidea that you don't know
everything.
Yeah.
Shock horror.
Being okay with that andaccepting that.
Yeah.
And pulling on people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(14:22):
I write here that she's morelike deputizing than caretaking
because she is doing it.
She's doing everything.
she pushed and she wantedprogress and by progress, I mean
power.
She wanted more.
which I think again, was taughtto her by her husband.
That's exactly what he wanted.
On top of all that, at thistime, it's a really key time in
(14:44):
the Roman Empire.
She got damn lucky in terms oftiming.
So, this is the part of theRoman Empire which is called the
Crisis of the Third Century.
Have you heard that, no.
Do you want to learn about that?
No, you're right.
I'm going to tell you about itanyway.
Yeah, okay.
(15:04):
So, this is also known as theimperial crisis, which is when
the Roman empire basically splitinto three different entities.
It was just a power struggle ofthe masses.
So power was fractured.
And it was a time where politicsbecame more influenced by the
military rather than, lineage.
People wouldn't necessarilyadhere to the policies and.
(15:27):
Emperors succeeded one anotherreally quickly.
So within 50 years, they had 26emperors.
Wow.
Yeah, in just a really short 50year period.
Just like the Tory party.
Yeah, but like worse.
We thought that was bad.
what are we on?
Four in four years or something?
Four in five years.
Like, it's Wow, 26 in 50.
(15:49):
It's a lot.
It's so much.
And because of that, Obviouslyeverything was unstable is the
politics phrase, isn't it?
There was loads of inflation,like today, lots of economic
depression, like today.
This caused devaluation of thecurrency, like today.
Um, this was on the back of aplague, like today.
(16:13):
So everything goes in cycles.
I know, and I was like, oh no,so dear.
Because of this, it demanded somuch attention in the epicenter
of the empire, right?
So all the armies went therebecause of all this invasion.
So someone would be on thethrone.
You need to protect that person.
Then they'd fall down, then youneed, and it was just, everyone
(16:36):
was focusing on this powerstruggle, which also meant that
the agricultural industrysuffered because you didn't have
people working on the landbecause they were all trying to,
keep the peace.
I see.
And I guess that left a bit of avacuum then for the more distant
parts of the empire to.
capitalise on something, Yes,and she was under the radar.
(16:56):
and began to make changes.
She had inherited her husband'sland, and she thought, okay, I
want to expand my reachthroughout the Med, and she did
this in a few ways.
A lot of them were Bloody, asyou would expect.
Mm-hmm The, probably the biggestone was Egypt.
(17:17):
Okay.
So in 269, she made a guy calledSDAs, her general, and she sent
him and his army, which was thesize of 70,000 troops, 70,000.
That is the size of Peckham.
I have found out that is.
Huge amount of people.
(17:38):
The great pack a mami of 2069.
So they all marched along,south, along the coastline,
ironically to the land of herancestor, Cleopatra, and into
Roman Egypt to claim Egypt astheir own.
Though they were, initiallysuccessful.
(18:00):
They were then driven out byRoman forces, so it wasn't
necessarily an easy battle,quite a bloody battle.
Just to give you an idea of whatthese battles were like back
then, we're talking bronzehelmets, we're talking
breastplates, very gladiatory.
If you were rich, you could thenafford like that chain mail kind
(18:20):
of thing that you had going on.
you would carry a semi, cylindershield.
It's like a, quite a roundedone, and something called a
pilum, which is a four footshaft with a two foot shank and
a tapered point.
Wow.
You could throw these about ahundred feet, so quite deadly,
like it was like a One Icouldn't, but someone could.
(18:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This pylum it's such a big partof, weaponry back then and it
then lasted for about fivecenturies.
So it was really, everyone hadone.
then Zunobia counterattacksagain.
She then decimates the Romanarmy and Egypt fell under her
control.
Having claimed Egypt, Zunobiawas in a position of strength.
(19:03):
But she had to be really carefulnot to conflict too much with
Rome because, they aretechnically in charge.
What she did do is she claimedthat a little bit like her
husband had done in the pastwhat she was saying to the
Emperor.
So, there was a Syrian Egyptiancalled, Timogenes, who started a
(19:23):
revolt against Roman rule whilethe Roman governor was away on
campaign.
Therefore, Zunobia marched onEgypt, could have been explained
as saying, I'm protecting you ofthis Timogenes threat, I'm doing
it for the good of the empire.
But there's another story thatshe sent Timogenes to start
(19:44):
causing havoc.
so she planted him.
One of the first false flagoperations.
Yeah, that's it.
Definitely.
And to show that she wasn'tmaking a fuss, she also allowed
the grain ships to sell as usualfrom Egypt to Rome.
So she was like, look, businessas usual, guys.
Don't worry.
I'm not here to cause a fuss.
was just trying to calm thetension in Egypt.
(20:06):
And I just wanted to, make surethat Egypt fell in line to you,
Emperor, like I just wanted tomake sure that they were well
behaved.
So at this point, you've got anemperor called, aurelian, and
that's what she said to him,basically.
Did he fall for that?
He did for the time being.
There's only so many times Ithink you can use that line.
(20:27):
Yeah.
No, no, I'm just, I'm justcoming to Rome to make sure
everyone's being nice to you.
Absolutely.
I know she's sneaky.
I love it.
Yeah.
So she keeps growing her empirebasically.
But she uses different tactics.
So for example, with Levant,which is, a region that today is
made up of Jordan, Syria,Israel, Lebanon, she actually
(20:50):
did diplomatic negotiations withthem rather than full on war
trade.
Okay, so it's not exclusively amilitary sort of walking up to
them and stealing it.
so what she did with Levin isbasically say, I will protect
you.
Look, it's a really unstabletime.
There's lots of bloodshed.
I will protect you with mymassive army of 70, 000 people.
(21:14):
My Peckham army, massive.
and then they fell under herrule.
I don't know what would happenif Levin said, actually.
Queen Zenobia.
Queen, I'm fine.
Thank you.
I'm not sure that would haveflown.
I'd imagine it's a sort of, it'san offer you can't refuse it's
giving me Godfather vibes.
(21:35):
Just another example of how shegained, more land, was she was
able to capture the Asia Minor,East Turkey.
Okay.
She basically.
stormed in.
the Empire were too busy faffingabout doing their own thing,
trying to work out who's incharge.
She was able to capture, theAsia Minor and put down a number
(21:57):
of loyalist Roman legions.
So no one was stopping herreally from the Roman side
because she was very clever ofshe must been carrying so much
sort of respect and admiration.
We know that this was on thatparticular.
emperor's radar, but he justcouldn't do anything about it.
Like time wasn't on his side.
(22:18):
He was mishandling differentrevolts, he didn't have the
resource to do it.
Where is she now?
She's what, 12 years in now tobeing queen, some with her
husband, some without.
That's it.
She's also really clever becauseshe tows so close to the line.
So even when she took over AsiaMinor, she put down these
loyalists in there to representthe Roman Empire.
(22:42):
Oh, I see.
And so she They couldn't reallytell her off.
Yeah.
They were like, just that kid inschool who like goes so close to
doing something wrong, but thentechnically, no miss it doesn't
quite say that.
You know what I mean?
So, so technically she had donenothing wrong to open up that
conflict.
Mm-hmm Then.
And to, Orian who is, asEmperor, when he becomes in
(23:07):
charge, has Zenobia right on hisradar.
He found her very audacious.
Zenobia, is Yeah, so she'scoining, coins.
Like I said, she's doing theruling really hands on.
And Oh, she did this reallyawkward thing.
And like I said, it's not wrong,it's just naughty, is that she
(23:28):
had these coins minted with herson's one side, because
remember, she's caretaker.
So her son's face on one sideand Aurelian's.
face on the other side, butAurelian was on the back of the
coin, not the front of the coin,which was very disrespectful.
Yeah, I'd imagine that, I mean,I haven't met many Roman
(23:50):
emperors in my life, but I thinkthey're probably quite precious
about their, status and theirpower.
And that feels like a real,undermining, an irksome move.
But again, not enough to do, notenough to cause outright war.
Sorry, did I put you on theback?
Oh, I didn't realise coins had aback.
Oh, sorry about that.
It's very much like that.
(24:10):
She also adopted, imperialtitles, for herself and her son.
So her son was called Augustusand she was the Augusta, which
was only then used for the royalfamily.
of Rome.
So again, that's like me saying,Oh, I'm princess of Wales.
And then, Catherine beingtotally fine with that.
She would not be.
(24:31):
Yeah.
Oh, I know.
I would be beheaded immediately.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
So this is really changing the,the dynamic, but Palmyra is no
longer like a trusted.
outpost of the Roman Empire.
Yeah, she's balancing this tie,tie rope so much because she's
also conducting, tradeagreements, which are in benefit
(24:52):
to the Roman Empire.
Like they do benefit from it,but she doesn't consult them.
She's just like, no, I just wantthis trade agreement in place.
I want to negotiate thisterritory.
She's just so independent.
She just does it and she's, andit's working because she's
growing.
And yeah, so she.
She's very selective with whoshe tells what to, by 271 A.
(25:15):
D.
she ruled over an empire whichstretched from modern day Iraq
through to Turkey and down toEgypt.
So a huge amount, much biggerthan it was with, her husband.
When Aurelian became emperor,he, like I said, took notice of
what she was doing.
And just said, this is gettingout of hand, really, this has
gone on for too long.
(25:35):
Aurelian himself was a militaryman, so he had risen through the
ranks.
he was very much soldierfocused, which meant he was
primal, he was not scared of afight, when he assumed rule, he
had to also defeat a load ofdifferent tribes to get rules.
So he had to defeat the Vandals,the Alemanni, and the Goths.
(25:55):
but by 272, so that took time,by 272 he's ready.
He's ready to take on, Zenobia.
He's going against her as amonster.
Yeah.
So she's had two years of cleanrunning, basically.
Two years, of course, in havoc,running under the radar,
building what she wants tobuild.
and he launched what is, like amilitary campaign He didn't even
(26:17):
really tell her what he wasplanning to do.
So there's, apparently there'sno letter of explanation.
but equally none of Zenobia tohim either.
They had no communication.
It was just out of the bluecompletely.
So he marched on the PalmyreneEmpire with his entire army.
Wow.
Later, however, letters werefound, between the two of them
(26:40):
where Aurelian is seen asreasonable and Zenobia is seen
as arrogant and hoity, which isa word that is coming across a
lot.
In our ladies But worldhistory.org notes that these are
properly fabrications.
So he probably made these up tosay I was very reasonable.
of course.
Yeah.
I really tried with this woman,She just wouldn't let me in.
(27:02):
She was hysterical.
Yes, basically.
so offer really goes to findher.
He destroys every city that isloyal to Soia, including le, the
Levin area.
Wow.
he fought off any attacks andjust marched on.
So the quick side story isAurelian comes to Tyana, which
is a city in modern day EastTurkey.
(27:26):
This was the home of the famousphilosopher Apollonius of Tyana,
who, Aurelian really admired.
Apparently, this philosophercame to him in a dream and
counseled him to be merciful ifhe wished to obtain victory.
the philosopher is like, youshould spare the cities.
(27:47):
And so that's what, Well, that'swhat happened.
So Iranian did do that.
This dream came true so that thecities fell before he even got
to them.
So they would surrender beforehe even arrived at the gates.
Okay.
the reason they fell is becausehe told everyone about this
dream.
Mm hmm.
Like sent messages on was like,I've had a dream that if you
(28:09):
fall down, I won't kill you andobviously then I don't want to
die.
So they'll just like surrender.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that's a cunning littletactic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, like everything in thisstory, it's deduced from the
evidence that we have.
But I guess it, it does rely onhim having already destroyed and
killed loads of people.
So there's, some authenticitybehind the threat.
(28:32):
we love a bit of cause andeffect.
Yeah, definitely.
so he's on route as an OBA.
Pushed and pushed and pushed,um, he's not going down without
a fight, and, Zenobia obviouslygets wind of this because,
messages come, all her citieshave fallen, and so she rallies
her armies, and then whathappens is the Battle of Ime.
(28:55):
Uh, I M M A E in 272.
this is bloody.
This is huge.
There are two massive armies.
This is for the eastern part ofthe Roman Empire.
The stakes are high.
You've got a woman in charge.
It couldn't be any more tense asa battle.
In this battle, Zenobia falls.
(29:17):
The Palmyrenes were defeated.
The way the Aurelian won.
was by faking retreat, and solike they fell back, and then
when the Palmyra forces, whenthey begin to tire, and they
were like, oh, we've seen themoff, they're retreating, when
they started to head back,Oranian then did a pincer
(29:38):
formation, and then came roundthe backside.
So they split and then came backaround.
quite naughty tactics, really, Ithink.
I mean, naughty tactics.
Very naughty tactics.
I'm just trying to imagine thescale of this and the tens of
thousands of soldiers in theseformations.
(29:59):
And you said it was prephotography, it's pre radio,
it's pre anything, you know.
I think it's just lots ofyelling and lots of brass on
brass and metal and blood andyeah, yeah, like first aid isn't
there.
You know, I think it must havebeen savage.
Yes.
(30:19):
Great words.
Savage.
A hundred percent.
Seneba herself and her generalZabdas, they flay to, Emesa,
which is Now called Homs inSyria.
That's Monday Homs.
And there she's got more men andshe's also got more Armory
money, resources in generalAurelian isn't having it.
(30:43):
So the armies meet again outsideOf, Emesa, so they go again.
So it's like another battle.
All this bloodshed.
Yeah, absolutely.
But it's because she'srelentless, She could have
fallen'cause she, I guess she'sthinking I've worked so hard for
this, and this is what myhusband wanted, and this is
what, and I'm good at it aswell, that's another thing,
(31:04):
she's just, it's a powerstruggle, again, the Romans win,
Aurelian sides win.
using precisely the same tactic.
So they hadn't learned from theprevious time.
So they pretend to retreat.
And then they turn around andthey're like, ha, got you.
And then they go again.
that meant that Aurelian thentook the city of, Emesa, and
also, raided the rest of theirresources as well, so it raided
(31:26):
the treasury and everything, sohe's gaining from all sides,
people, power, money, the wholeshebang.
this is a real show of power,isn't it?
Oh yeah, and it's a show ofputting someone in their box
again, lying, absolutely.
Yeah, Zenobia flees again.
Wow, she gets away.
She's sneaky sneaky.
This time she goes to Palmyraitself.
(31:47):
So her namesake, the place, theHoly Grail, if you like, which
is very poetic as a finalstandoff battle, isn't it?
Yeah.
she was in the city walls andmade all the preparations she
could.
She found reinforcements, again,pulling on all that power and
all that influence that she'sbuilt, all that camaraderie with
(32:08):
the troops and, finding aid, Andit sounds like she knew what was
coming and did get like a littlebit sentimental.
she made declaration accordingto historian Edward Gibbon that
the last minute of her reignshould be the same as her life
So like the same attitude,forte, resilience, politicians
(32:31):
do get a bit sentimental, don'tthey?
Oh definitely, yeah.
Yeah.
and would be a great movie.
Can you imagine this scene inthe movie where she's like
giving this ready empoweringspeech to her troops knowing
that the end's probably up, putthat here, gladiator movie.
That's what I want to happen.
Even early on, you said that shewas admired for always keeping
(32:53):
her composure.
It sounds like she's keepingthat right to the end.
Very stoic, right?
Stoic, yeah, faltering under thepressure.
Yeah, for sure.
in the very dramatic movieHollywood style, Aurelian comes
over the hills and besiegesPalmyra.
Zenobia runs off with her son oncamelback, hoping to reach
(33:17):
Persia.
But she then is captured at theriver and apparently was brought
back to Aurelian, tied inchains.
When she gets to Aurelian, hethen sends her to Rome.
There's a few different accountsof what happens after this quite
dramatic capture.
One is that she didn't even makeit to Rome.
(33:38):
So one story is that.
Both her and her son drowned onthe way to Rome.
but the most probable storywould be that when she was put
on trial in Rome and acquitted,because that tends to be what
happens situations.
She would then spend the rest ofher life married to an upper
class Roman because, and you'reprobably like, oh, does this
(33:59):
normally happen?
Aurelian was probablyembarrassed that a woman had
caused him so much troublebecause there was three battles
there, I've just taken youthrough, and vast amount of
traveling.
These are massive distanceshere.
Yeah, she was giving him theproper runaround, So he probably
wanted to downplay hersignificance, rather than make a
(34:22):
bit of a show of her.
You know, Amberlynn was verymuch made a show of, wasn't she?
Her death was very, Likepantomime y, while this is like,
just put her under the carpet,yeah, really downplay what a
problem it actually was.
And it's like, oh, we've justgone together.
How tired I am.
Yeah.
There is a famous tale of herbeing paraded through the
(34:43):
streets of Rome, in goldenchains, which has been depicted
in different paintings andsculptures.
but again, it's likely a, afantasy kind of fabrication,
like, look at this silly woman,kind of thing.
But regardless of whatever herfate was, Queen, Zenobia, is
probably one of the most famouswomen of that time.
(35:06):
And I think despite her being,defeated, it shows what a
warrior she was, how strategicshe was.
One of the terms in the articlesI read was a shrewd ruler, which
I really agreed with.
she was more than What peoplethought women were at that time.
Oh, way beyond.
Yeah.
I've just put a little point atthe end here.
(35:28):
So a lot of this story, becauseit is nearly 2, 000 years old,
very much depends on whatsources you're looking at and
what websites you're looking at.
I very much relied onworldhistory.
org today to try and get aconsistent narrative.
But the point of this storyisn't really that.
The point of the story is thatwomen have always been there.
(35:48):
When you think of the RomanEmpire, they were there, they
were doing what the men weredoing.
They were ruling, they werefighting, seizing, they did
diplomacy.
They have been there doing itall.
We are just taught to rememberwomen for their beauty.
Which is like Cleopatra right atthe top of the story and that's
(36:08):
not what we remember the menfor.
So if you think about Roman men,I imagine you're thinking Julius
Caesar, you're thinking of menof their power and you're
thinking of women of theirbeauty.
Whilst Queen Zenobia is beauty,absolutely, but power and more.
So that's why I wanted to coverher.
She's, um, she's a firecracker.
(36:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, just like strength andambition and the way that she
manages to Rally all thesepeople behind her.
Yeah, which must have had greatpolitical skill and the strength
of the whole package and thestoicism and You need all those
things to rule and gain thatquickly.
(36:49):
So the Palmyra Empire itselfunder her rule was like three
years like it wasn't long.
Yeah, but so much happened inthat three years like for
context King Charles has been onthe throne like two and a half
years Like it's that blip, youknow to me like the Queen died
yesterday, you know, I mean likeit's such a short blip in
(37:11):
history What she achieved inthat short amount of time with
the technologies back then,with, the resources back then,
with the turmoil back then, shesaw her opportunity and she went
for it.
And more of that, be great.
I enjoyed that enormously.
(37:32):
Thank you.
It was nice to get out ofVictorian England.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very deserty.
Lots of sands.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure.
It was a lot of fun.
And she's not the only woman ofthe Roman Empire either.
That's the thing.
There's loads of warrior womenwho we could cover And because
of one thing or another just gotcompletely written out of
(37:53):
history But she's one of many Ithink that's important to know
as well okay, well, thanks forlistening.
If you enjoyed that, pleaselike, comment, subscribe, uh,
tell your friends about us.
We'd like that.
We would like that.
very much.
Okay, catch you next time.
see you later.
Yes, bye.
yeah.
I've forgotten about the floorbackground.
That's exciting.
Keep you pepped up.
Yeah.
Also, um, Happy InternationalDay of Women and Girls in
Science.
Oh, I didn't know that.
What a great day.
Yeah.
February the 11th.
It started in 2015 by the UN topromote women and girls in STEM.
(00:30):
Oh man, we could have saved lastweek's, um, story.
Oh no, we did release it today.
So we've released a STEM storyon a STEM day.
Perfect.
Hey, oh my god, I mean, look atthat.
I made a real name.
We're better than we think.
Yeah, for sure.
You don't even Hi, Vicky.
(00:53):
Hi, Simon.
How are you doing?
I'm good.
How are you?
Yeah, very well.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Welcome.
Welcome to She Changed History.
Hello.
And it's Vicky's turn today.
It is.
You can sit back and relax.
talk at you for a bit.
What have you got for us today?
We're going right back.
(01:13):
So we're going 2, 000 years ago.
Wow, this is even pre Victorian.
How dare we?
How dare we?
I know I'm going to push you outof that comfort zone, you're
going to have to stretch alittle bit, but hopefully it'll
be a good one.
Um, got a little intro.
She commanded legions, dared tochallenge the Roman Empire, and
(01:36):
defied expectations at everyturn.
Her name was Zenobia, and herstory is one of ambition and the
relentless pursuit of power.
From the sands of Palmyra to theglittering courts of Rome, we
unravel the life and legend ofthis extraordinary woman.
Join us as we explore the riseand fall of Queen Zenobia, a
(01:57):
warrior whose legacy echoesthrough the ages.
Wicked.
So it's power, it's royalty,it's transcension, it's all of
those words.
And you've even got a lovelyphoto of her as well.
That's great.
That is a painting and, um,sorry, I didn't mean to sound so
corrective.
They didn't have photography 2,000 years ago, Simon.
(02:19):
Sorry to correct you.
I know.
That was devastating.
That sounded really bitchy, I'msorry.
Uh, Simon, they didn't havephotography 2, 000 years ago.
Don't be silly please.
You're on a history podcast.
but that is her surveying herempire.
So this is a painting of herallegedly at her peak.
(02:41):
Like the Lion King where it'slike everything, the light will
touch.
It's very much like that forsure.
Nice.
so lots of sources today, ABritannica article, a really
good YouTube video, calledZenobia, the Warrior Queen of
the Palm Marineau Marine Empire.
lots of world history.orgarticles.
They seem to have got loads onthis kind of area of history.
(03:02):
So that was really helpful and,there was an alternative
history.
Dot com article as well.
Oh, cool.
Sure.
Good.
Yeah.
we're gonna have to learn a lot.
I don't, I didn't know muchabout this area.
Do you know much Not really.
No.
Okay.
So we're in Syria.
So Palm Myra is a city in modernday Syria.
z Noia was born two forty eightyin Palmyra.
(03:28):
Palmyra is like a Romanprovince, is part of the empire.
That therefore makes Zenobia acitizen of Rome.
There is a lovely description inone of the articles that says
she had a flashing cold blackeyes, pearly white teeth, dark
Middle Eastern skin and wavybrunette hair reflecting her
(03:48):
part Greek and part Arablineage.
She was born into an Arab tribewhich meant that she was infused
with, Arabic.
tribal politics.
There's also just a casuallittle claim that because of her
Greek heritage, that could betracked all the way back to
Cleopatra herself.
(04:10):
Wow.
Yeah.
With all of this, because it is2000 years ago, just a pinch of
salt on all those things.
I don't know if you're watchingapple cider vinegar on Netflix
at the minute, but it'sbasically about this girl who
made up so much stuff and, likereally dark stuff.
She made up that she had cancer,and now everything I read in the
news, I'm like, is this true?
Is this true?
(04:32):
So, she claims to be.
related to Cleopatra.
But we haven't got an official,who do you think you are,
verification of that?
I don't think so.
I haven't, I haven't gonethrough the archives.
Nice to believe though.
I think it's pretty cool, isn'tit?
If you're going to have aheritage, make sure it's
Cleopatra.
a really key day in Zenobia'slife is, 258 AD when she marries
(04:54):
Ordinathus.
Ordinathus, has a lot of, powerin the province.
they marry and they have atleast one son called Valbaethus,
and Ordinathus has a son fromhis previous marriage as well.
So it's like a blended familysituation.
she's marrying into power.
(05:14):
That's it.
So he rules this region.
And parts that extend over that.
So it's like a bit of the RomanEmpire.
So she's ruling.
Do we know, like, what sort ofrole she would have?
I don't know, was she merely atrophy wife or was she actually
getting involved in the action?
She got involved heavy, reallyheavy.
(05:35):
Oh wow, okay.
And that is the piece of thestory that kind of links to how
she rose.
to power basically.
so it was very much a teameffort to understand like the
power they had.
You kind of need to understand alittle bit about Palmyra itself.
So, like I said, it's in modernday Syria.
So you're talking like theTurkey region of Iraq, Lebanon
(05:56):
around there.
It's an oasis, that area, whichmeans that it's got loads of
fertile soil, which is amazing.
And that's what their economyrelies on.
It kind of relies on this today.
So you're producing off theland.
So that's wine, Um, Olives,vegetables, fruits, nuts, wool,
because your animals can live onthe land.
And because of where it waspositioned, it was a really
(06:18):
important trading hub on whatthey call the Silk Road.
Have you heard of the Silk Road?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So that is 4, 000 miles long andit goes through Europe and, to
Asia and it was a trade routefrom about the second century BC
to the mid 15th century AD, so areally long time.
And the reason it was called theSilk Road is because the trade
(06:42):
tended to be in silk andtextiles, which were produced in
China, traveled along the way.
Palmyra was on this route, andthat's where, you could pay your
taxes.
So that's why it was so rich.
They charged taxes to use theroad, and they also let the
travelers rest there.
Yeah, like a really key hubalong the way.
(07:05):
Yep, trading post and because ofthat it influenced different
types of cultures.
The architecture you can see hasbeen influenced by this time,
like you can see Romanarchitecture that is still there
today, which is reallyinteresting.
So.
You're in power, you're marriedto someone in power in this
hubbub on the Silk Road.
Yeah, she's giving me slightvibes of Ching Shih there.
(07:26):
I know! Marrying the rightperson, but also getting
involved.
Very much in role.
So, the reason she got involvedis because, Ordinathus is a bit
of a, um, he's a bit of acharacter in himself.
He's Oh God! He's not like thisquiet, stoic kind of just sits
back and lets, you know, he'squite hands on in his rule.
(07:50):
So the character is what theycall the kid at school who sets
fire to the library.
That's what we're talking abouttoday.
So there was a key event reallyearly on their marriage, so 227
AD.
the Sassanid Persians, which wasled by a guy called Shapur I,
who was known as the King ofKings of Iran.
He blocked the Silk Road,preventing Romans from accessing
(08:14):
their silk.
Um, it said in some articles,their beloved silk, but I think
it was probably more stop themcollecting their taxes.
That's what really stuck.
The Roman emperor at the timewas called Valerian.
He tried to fight Shapur um,tried to fight this army off and
(08:35):
he failed.
So Ordonathus took it uponthemselves to fight him.
He was like, well, I'm not, youknow, you can fail, but I'm
actually going to get my guysand rally the troops.
now, crucially is the word thatis stated here, crucially, this
was after he tried to make analliance with Shapur.
So he was, he tried to getChopin on side, and then when
(08:55):
that didn't work, he was like,well, stuff you anyway, I'm
going to tell you off to theRoman emperor and we're going to
fight this, you know, tell youoff to the Roman emperor.
Yeah.
He's like, I'm going to tell onyou if you don't want to make an
alliance with, yeah, if youdon't want to make an alliance
with me, I'm telling.
So that's basically whathappened.
So he tried to make an alliance,Then he fought back.
(09:18):
Um, and this did work.
So he successfully pushedShapur's, forces over the
Euphrates Tis river, which runsthrough Syria today.
If you Google that river, it isfricking stunning.
It is absolutely gorgeous.
Such a special part of theworld.
And then what he did then, orDeneithis, which just shows
these kind of character aspects,Having tried to go around the
(09:41):
Emperor's back, then said to theEmperor, Oh, you know what?
I did you a favor there.
I managed to run him out foryou.
I think, I think I did reallywell there.
You know, just, owe me, owe mein the future.
Don't worry about it.
Just owe me.
He's sort of already acting notnecessarily against the Roman
Empire, but maybe not totallyadhering to the agreed power
(10:05):
structure there.
Yes! Like the Roman Emperorcouldn't, get rid of the King of
Kings.
You know, you've got to step up,haven't you?
Yeah, hold that thought, becauseit's so important in the future.
for his service of, shoving offShapur, Ordonathus was made the
governor of the entire easternpart of the Roman Empire.
So, that's his, thank you.
(10:27):
over time he gained enoughpower, to rule almost
independently as Rome and thatwas with Zenobia as queen.
She was very active in thisgrowth of this empire and this
strategy.
because she had loads of skills,she was fluent in Greek, Latin,
Amharic, Egyptian.
Because of all that and also herclaim to heritage of Cleopatra
(10:48):
the seventh, she had like thisinterconnectedness kind of
network going on.
She enjoyed hunting.
So she was one of the lads,basically.
She enjoyed what they called thehunt, and they called that the
sport of kings back then.
And that was a really big thingin Persian.
Arab lands, it turns out.
It turned out that she'd prefer,rather than being in a carriage,
(11:10):
she prefer to be on horsebackwith the troops basically.
So she would travel with,whether it be a horse or a
camel.
So like culturally she's.
one of the people.
She can blend into all of these,uh, different, different areas,
different tribes that she rulesover, and she's getting involved
with them in a sort of agrittier way.
(11:33):
It creates respect, right?
Yeah, definitely.
It creates a reputation.
So she got this kind of fame.
and she walked by foot at thehead of the troops as well.
So she wasn't like at the backbeing paraded through.
She was at the helm.
She could also out drink any ofher soldiers.
That's where it comes from.
(11:53):
Okay.
That's the power.
Yeah.
She was considered better atthem than hunting and because
Ordonathus is quite a character,she also got a reputation for
commanding self control.
She was very poised, verycollected.
All the things you want in aleader.
Yeah.
I think.
So, she was very active becauseshe had skills to grow this
(12:14):
empire.
Then her husband dies, as withevery story I tell.
So, um, I don't know why, theyjust come to me and they, oh
well then the husband dies.
You gravitate towards them,yeah.
In 267 ad, um, both Ordona andhis son were assassinated by his
(12:36):
nephew, so this is classic RomanEmpire stuff where they just
power struggle, just killingeveryone.
That's the only answer.
The nephew was the only relativewho laid claim to the pal Miron
throne.
Mm-hmm But what the nephewdidn't count on was Signia.
Mm-hmm rallied her husband'sforces having gained their
respect and quickly squashedthis idea of a rebellion.
(12:59):
Like the nephew had a go atrebellion and she was like, nah
mate, not happening.
So all of her behavior up untilnow has come back to, to serve
her well.
Yep.
She's like, I can do this.
I want to do this.
Yeah.
I'm not letting you do it,especially after you've just
killed.
Yeah, like what an idiot is thenephew.
Surely he saw how badass shewas.
I know, but she's a woman.
(13:20):
Oh yes, sorry.
I can take you, poor lady.
so this was the son from thefirst marriage who was
assassinated.
So Zenobia still has her tenyear old son, Valberthus.
And she, the idea is that Youknow, like with Matilda, we
spoke about, she would lookafter for her child.
They call that the role ofregent.
(13:41):
So she took on this, shemaintained all her late
husband's policies.
and she did the job.
She did all the things you wouldwant a.
leader to do.
she was also very clever becauseshe positioned herself with
intellectuals and philosophersand people with high standing to
advise her.
So rather than just like thebrutest or the loudest or the
(14:02):
most extroverted soldiers, shewould surround her people who
she perceived to have expertise.
Hallmark of the best leaders.
I think so, just you, just thisidea that you don't know
everything.
Yeah.
Shock horror.
Being okay with that andaccepting that.
Yeah.
And pulling on people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(14:22):
I write here that she's morelike deputizing than caretaking
because she is doing it.
She's doing everything.
she pushed and she wantedprogress and by progress, I mean
power.
She wanted more.
which I think again, was taughtto her by her husband.
That's exactly what he wanted.
On top of all that, at thistime, it's a really key time in
(14:44):
the Roman Empire.
She got damn lucky in terms oftiming.
So, this is the part of theRoman Empire which is called the
Crisis of the Third Century.
Have you heard that, no.
Do you want to learn about that?
No, you're right.
I'm going to tell you about itanyway.
Yeah, okay.
(15:04):
So, this is also known as theimperial crisis, which is when
the Roman empire basically splitinto three different entities.
It was just a power struggle ofthe masses.
So power was fractured.
And it was a time where politicsbecame more influenced by the
military rather than, lineage.
People wouldn't necessarilyadhere to the policies and.
(15:27):
Emperors succeeded one anotherreally quickly.
So within 50 years, they had 26emperors.
Wow.
Yeah, in just a really short 50year period.
Just like the Tory party.
Yeah, but like worse.
We thought that was bad.
what are we on?
Four in four years or something?
Four in five years.
Like, it's Wow, 26 in 50.
(15:49):
It's a lot.
It's so much.
And because of that, Obviouslyeverything was unstable is the
politics phrase, isn't it?
There was loads of inflation,like today, lots of economic
depression, like today.
This caused devaluation of thecurrency, like today.
Um, this was on the back of aplague, like today.
(16:13):
So everything goes in cycles.
I know, and I was like, oh no,so dear.
Because of this, it demanded somuch attention in the epicenter
of the empire, right?
So all the armies went therebecause of all this invasion.
So someone would be on thethrone.
You need to protect that person.
Then they'd fall down, then youneed, and it was just, everyone
(16:36):
was focusing on this powerstruggle, which also meant that
the agricultural industrysuffered because you didn't have
people working on the landbecause they were all trying to,
keep the peace.
I see.
And I guess that left a bit of avacuum then for the more distant
parts of the empire to.
capitalise on something, Yes,and she was under the radar.
(16:56):
and began to make changes.
She had inherited her husband'sland, and she thought, okay, I
want to expand my reachthroughout the Med, and she did
this in a few ways.
A lot of them were Bloody, asyou would expect.
Mm-hmm The, probably the biggestone was Egypt.
(17:17):
Okay.
So in 269, she made a guy calledSDAs, her general, and she sent
him and his army, which was thesize of 70,000 troops, 70,000.
That is the size of Peckham.
I have found out that is.
Huge amount of people.
(17:38):
The great pack a mami of 2069.
So they all marched along,south, along the coastline,
ironically to the land of herancestor, Cleopatra, and into
Roman Egypt to claim Egypt astheir own.
Though they were, initiallysuccessful.
(18:00):
They were then driven out byRoman forces, so it wasn't
necessarily an easy battle,quite a bloody battle.
Just to give you an idea of whatthese battles were like back
then, we're talking bronzehelmets, we're talking
breastplates, very gladiatory.
If you were rich, you could thenafford like that chain mail kind
(18:20):
of thing that you had going on.
you would carry a semi, cylindershield.
It's like a, quite a roundedone, and something called a
pilum, which is a four footshaft with a two foot shank and
a tapered point.
Wow.
You could throw these about ahundred feet, so quite deadly,
like it was like a One Icouldn't, but someone could.
(18:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This pylum it's such a big partof, weaponry back then and it
then lasted for about fivecenturies.
So it was really, everyone hadone.
then Zunobia counterattacksagain.
She then decimates the Romanarmy and Egypt fell under her
control.
Having claimed Egypt, Zunobiawas in a position of strength.
(19:03):
But she had to be really carefulnot to conflict too much with
Rome because, they aretechnically in charge.
What she did do is she claimedthat a little bit like her
husband had done in the pastwhat she was saying to the
Emperor.
So, there was a Syrian Egyptiancalled, Timogenes, who started a
(19:23):
revolt against Roman rule whilethe Roman governor was away on
campaign.
Therefore, Zunobia marched onEgypt, could have been explained
as saying, I'm protecting you ofthis Timogenes threat, I'm doing
it for the good of the empire.
But there's another story thatshe sent Timogenes to start
(19:44):
causing havoc.
so she planted him.
One of the first false flagoperations.
Yeah, that's it.
Definitely.
And to show that she wasn'tmaking a fuss, she also allowed
the grain ships to sell as usualfrom Egypt to Rome.
So she was like, look, businessas usual, guys.
Don't worry.
I'm not here to cause a fuss.
was just trying to calm thetension in Egypt.
(20:06):
And I just wanted to, make surethat Egypt fell in line to you,
Emperor, like I just wanted tomake sure that they were well
behaved.
So at this point, you've got anemperor called, aurelian, and
that's what she said to him,basically.
Did he fall for that?
He did for the time being.
There's only so many times Ithink you can use that line.
(20:27):
Yeah.
No, no, I'm just, I'm justcoming to Rome to make sure
everyone's being nice to you.
Absolutely.
I know she's sneaky.
I love it.
Yeah.
So she keeps growing her empirebasically.
But she uses different tactics.
So for example, with Levant,which is, a region that today is
made up of Jordan, Syria,Israel, Lebanon, she actually
(20:50):
did diplomatic negotiations withthem rather than full on war
trade.
Okay, so it's not exclusively amilitary sort of walking up to
them and stealing it.
so what she did with Levin isbasically say, I will protect
you.
Look, it's a really unstabletime.
There's lots of bloodshed.
I will protect you with mymassive army of 70, 000 people.
(21:14):
My Peckham army, massive.
and then they fell under herrule.
I don't know what would happenif Levin said, actually.
Queen Zenobia.
Queen, I'm fine.
Thank you.
I'm not sure that would haveflown.
I'd imagine it's a sort of, it'san offer you can't refuse it's
giving me Godfather vibes.
(21:35):
Just another example of how shegained, more land, was she was
able to capture the Asia Minor,East Turkey.
Okay.
She basically.
stormed in.
the Empire were too busy faffingabout doing their own thing,
trying to work out who's incharge.
She was able to capture, theAsia Minor and put down a number
(21:57):
of loyalist Roman legions.
So no one was stopping herreally from the Roman side
because she was very clever ofshe must been carrying so much
sort of respect and admiration.
We know that this was on thatparticular.
emperor's radar, but he justcouldn't do anything about it.
Like time wasn't on his side.
(22:18):
He was mishandling differentrevolts, he didn't have the
resource to do it.
Where is she now?
She's what, 12 years in now tobeing queen, some with her
husband, some without.
That's it.
She's also really clever becauseshe tows so close to the line.
So even when she took over AsiaMinor, she put down these
loyalists in there to representthe Roman Empire.
(22:42):
Oh, I see.
And so she They couldn't reallytell her off.
Yeah.
They were like, just that kid inschool who like goes so close to
doing something wrong, but thentechnically, no miss it doesn't
quite say that.
You know what I mean?
So, so technically she had donenothing wrong to open up that
conflict.
Mm-hmm Then.
And to, Orian who is, asEmperor, when he becomes in
(23:07):
charge, has Zenobia right on hisradar.
He found her very audacious.
Zenobia, is Yeah, so she'scoining, coins.
Like I said, she's doing theruling really hands on.
And Oh, she did this reallyawkward thing.
And like I said, it's not wrong,it's just naughty, is that she
(23:28):
had these coins minted with herson's one side, because
remember, she's caretaker.
So her son's face on one sideand Aurelian's.
face on the other side, butAurelian was on the back of the
coin, not the front of the coin,which was very disrespectful.
Yeah, I'd imagine that, I mean,I haven't met many Roman
(23:50):
emperors in my life, but I thinkthey're probably quite precious
about their, status and theirpower.
And that feels like a real,undermining, an irksome move.
But again, not enough to do, notenough to cause outright war.
Sorry, did I put you on theback?
Oh, I didn't realise coins had aback.
Oh, sorry about that.
It's very much like that.
(24:10):
She also adopted, imperialtitles, for herself and her son.
So her son was called Augustusand she was the Augusta, which
was only then used for the royalfamily.
of Rome.
So again, that's like me saying,Oh, I'm princess of Wales.
And then, Catherine beingtotally fine with that.
She would not be.
(24:31):
Yeah.
Oh, I know.
I would be beheaded immediately.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
So this is really changing the,the dynamic, but Palmyra is no
longer like a trusted.
outpost of the Roman Empire.
Yeah, she's balancing this tie,tie rope so much because she's
also conducting, tradeagreements, which are in benefit
(24:52):
to the Roman Empire.
Like they do benefit from it,but she doesn't consult them.
She's just like, no, I just wantthis trade agreement in place.
I want to negotiate thisterritory.
She's just so independent.
She just does it and she's, andit's working because she's
growing.
And yeah, so she.
She's very selective with whoshe tells what to, by 271 A.
(25:15):
D.
she ruled over an empire whichstretched from modern day Iraq
through to Turkey and down toEgypt.
So a huge amount, much biggerthan it was with, her husband.
When Aurelian became emperor,he, like I said, took notice of
what she was doing.
And just said, this is gettingout of hand, really, this has
gone on for too long.
(25:35):
Aurelian himself was a militaryman, so he had risen through the
ranks.
he was very much soldierfocused, which meant he was
primal, he was not scared of afight, when he assumed rule, he
had to also defeat a load ofdifferent tribes to get rules.
So he had to defeat the Vandals,the Alemanni, and the Goths.
(25:55):
but by 272, so that took time,by 272 he's ready.
He's ready to take on, Zenobia.
He's going against her as amonster.
Yeah.
So she's had two years of cleanrunning, basically.
Two years, of course, in havoc,running under the radar,
building what she wants tobuild.
and he launched what is, like amilitary campaign He didn't even
(26:17):
really tell her what he wasplanning to do.
So there's, apparently there'sno letter of explanation.
but equally none of Zenobia tohim either.
They had no communication.
It was just out of the bluecompletely.
So he marched on the PalmyreneEmpire with his entire army.
Wow.
Later, however, letters werefound, between the two of them
(26:40):
where Aurelian is seen asreasonable and Zenobia is seen
as arrogant and hoity, which isa word that is coming across a
lot.
In our ladies But worldhistory.org notes that these are
properly fabrications.
So he probably made these up tosay I was very reasonable.
of course.
Yeah.
I really tried with this woman,She just wouldn't let me in.
(27:02):
She was hysterical.
Yes, basically.
so offer really goes to findher.
He destroys every city that isloyal to Soia, including le, the
Levin area.
Wow.
he fought off any attacks andjust marched on.
So the quick side story isAurelian comes to Tyana, which
is a city in modern day EastTurkey.
(27:26):
This was the home of the famousphilosopher Apollonius of Tyana,
who, Aurelian really admired.
Apparently, this philosophercame to him in a dream and
counseled him to be merciful ifhe wished to obtain victory.
the philosopher is like, youshould spare the cities.
(27:47):
And so that's what, Well, that'swhat happened.
So Iranian did do that.
This dream came true so that thecities fell before he even got
to them.
So they would surrender beforehe even arrived at the gates.
Okay.
the reason they fell is becausehe told everyone about this
dream.
Mm hmm.
Like sent messages on was like,I've had a dream that if you
(28:09):
fall down, I won't kill you andobviously then I don't want to
die.
So they'll just like surrender.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that's a cunning littletactic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, like everything in thisstory, it's deduced from the
evidence that we have.
But I guess it, it does rely onhim having already destroyed and
killed loads of people.
So there's, some authenticitybehind the threat.
(28:32):
we love a bit of cause andeffect.
Yeah, definitely.
so he's on route as an OBA.
Pushed and pushed and pushed,um, he's not going down without
a fight, and, Zenobia obviouslygets wind of this because,
messages come, all her citieshave fallen, and so she rallies
her armies, and then whathappens is the Battle of Ime.
(28:55):
Uh, I M M A E in 272.
this is bloody.
This is huge.
There are two massive armies.
This is for the eastern part ofthe Roman Empire.
The stakes are high.
You've got a woman in charge.
It couldn't be any more tense asa battle.
In this battle, Zenobia falls.
(29:17):
The Palmyrenes were defeated.
The way the Aurelian won.
was by faking retreat, and solike they fell back, and then
when the Palmyra forces, whenthey begin to tire, and they
were like, oh, we've seen themoff, they're retreating, when
they started to head back,Oranian then did a pincer
(29:38):
formation, and then came roundthe backside.
So they split and then came backaround.
quite naughty tactics, really, Ithink.
I mean, naughty tactics.
Very naughty tactics.
I'm just trying to imagine thescale of this and the tens of
thousands of soldiers in theseformations.
(29:59):
And you said it was prephotography, it's pre radio,
it's pre anything, you know.
I think it's just lots ofyelling and lots of brass on
brass and metal and blood andyeah, yeah, like first aid isn't
there.
You know, I think it must havebeen savage.
Yes.
(30:19):
Great words.
Savage.
A hundred percent.
Seneba herself and her generalZabdas, they flay to, Emesa,
which is Now called Homs inSyria.
That's Monday Homs.
And there she's got more men andshe's also got more Armory
money, resources in generalAurelian isn't having it.
(30:43):
So the armies meet again outsideOf, Emesa, so they go again.
So it's like another battle.
All this bloodshed.
Yeah, absolutely.
But it's because she'srelentless, She could have
fallen'cause she, I guess she'sthinking I've worked so hard for
this, and this is what myhusband wanted, and this is
what, and I'm good at it aswell, that's another thing,
(31:04):
she's just, it's a powerstruggle, again, the Romans win,
Aurelian sides win.
using precisely the same tactic.
So they hadn't learned from theprevious time.
So they pretend to retreat.
And then they turn around andthey're like, ha, got you.
And then they go again.
that meant that Aurelian thentook the city of, Emesa, and
also, raided the rest of theirresources as well, so it raided
(31:26):
the treasury and everything, sohe's gaining from all sides,
people, power, money, the wholeshebang.
this is a real show of power,isn't it?
Oh yeah, and it's a show ofputting someone in their box
again, lying, absolutely.
Yeah, Zenobia flees again.
Wow, she gets away.
She's sneaky sneaky.
This time she goes to Palmyraitself.
(31:47):
So her namesake, the place, theHoly Grail, if you like, which
is very poetic as a finalstandoff battle, isn't it?
Yeah.
she was in the city walls andmade all the preparations she
could.
She found reinforcements, again,pulling on all that power and
all that influence that she'sbuilt, all that camaraderie with
(32:08):
the troops and, finding aid, Andit sounds like she knew what was
coming and did get like a littlebit sentimental.
she made declaration accordingto historian Edward Gibbon that
the last minute of her reignshould be the same as her life
So like the same attitude,forte, resilience, politicians
(32:31):
do get a bit sentimental, don'tthey?
Oh definitely, yeah.
Yeah.
and would be a great movie.
Can you imagine this scene inthe movie where she's like
giving this ready empoweringspeech to her troops knowing
that the end's probably up, putthat here, gladiator movie.
That's what I want to happen.
Even early on, you said that shewas admired for always keeping
(32:53):
her composure.
It sounds like she's keepingthat right to the end.
Very stoic, right?
Stoic, yeah, faltering under thepressure.
Yeah, for sure.
in the very dramatic movieHollywood style, Aurelian comes
over the hills and besiegesPalmyra.
Zenobia runs off with her son oncamelback, hoping to reach
(33:17):
Persia.
But she then is captured at theriver and apparently was brought
back to Aurelian, tied inchains.
When she gets to Aurelian, hethen sends her to Rome.
There's a few different accountsof what happens after this quite
dramatic capture.
One is that she didn't even makeit to Rome.
(33:38):
So one story is that.
Both her and her son drowned onthe way to Rome.
but the most probable storywould be that when she was put
on trial in Rome and acquitted,because that tends to be what
happens situations.
She would then spend the rest ofher life married to an upper
class Roman because, and you'reprobably like, oh, does this
(33:59):
normally happen?
Aurelian was probablyembarrassed that a woman had
caused him so much troublebecause there was three battles
there, I've just taken youthrough, and vast amount of
traveling.
These are massive distanceshere.
Yeah, she was giving him theproper runaround, So he probably
wanted to downplay hersignificance, rather than make a
(34:22):
bit of a show of her.
You know, Amberlynn was verymuch made a show of, wasn't she?
Her death was very, Likepantomime y, while this is like,
just put her under the carpet,yeah, really downplay what a
problem it actually was.
And it's like, oh, we've justgone together.
How tired I am.
Yeah.
There is a famous tale of herbeing paraded through the
(34:43):
streets of Rome, in goldenchains, which has been depicted
in different paintings andsculptures.
but again, it's likely a, afantasy kind of fabrication,
like, look at this silly woman,kind of thing.
But regardless of whatever herfate was, Queen, Zenobia, is
probably one of the most famouswomen of that time.
(35:06):
And I think despite her being,defeated, it shows what a
warrior she was, how strategicshe was.
One of the terms in the articlesI read was a shrewd ruler, which
I really agreed with.
she was more than What peoplethought women were at that time.
Oh, way beyond.
Yeah.
I've just put a little point atthe end here.
(35:28):
So a lot of this story, becauseit is nearly 2, 000 years old,
very much depends on whatsources you're looking at and
what websites you're looking at.
I very much relied onworldhistory.
org today to try and get aconsistent narrative.
But the point of this storyisn't really that.
The point of the story is thatwomen have always been there.
(35:48):
When you think of the RomanEmpire, they were there, they
were doing what the men weredoing.
They were ruling, they werefighting, seizing, they did
diplomacy.
They have been there doing itall.
We are just taught to rememberwomen for their beauty.
Which is like Cleopatra right atthe top of the story and that's
(36:08):
not what we remember the menfor.
So if you think about Roman men,I imagine you're thinking Julius
Caesar, you're thinking of menof their power and you're
thinking of women of theirbeauty.
Whilst Queen Zenobia is beauty,absolutely, but power and more.
So that's why I wanted to coverher.
She's, um, she's a firecracker.
(36:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, just like strength andambition and the way that she
manages to Rally all thesepeople behind her.
Yeah, which must have had greatpolitical skill and the strength
of the whole package and thestoicism and You need all those
things to rule and gain thatquickly.
(36:49):
So the Palmyra Empire itselfunder her rule was like three
years like it wasn't long.
Yeah, but so much happened inthat three years like for
context King Charles has been onthe throne like two and a half
years Like it's that blip, youknow to me like the Queen died
yesterday, you know, I mean likeit's such a short blip in
(37:11):
history What she achieved inthat short amount of time with
the technologies back then,with, the resources back then,
with the turmoil back then, shesaw her opportunity and she went
for it.
And more of that, be great.
I enjoyed that enormously.
(37:32):
Thank you.
It was nice to get out ofVictorian England.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very deserty.
Lots of sands.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure.
It was a lot of fun.
And she's not the only woman ofthe Roman Empire either.
That's the thing.
There's loads of warrior womenwho we could cover And because
of one thing or another just gotcompletely written out of
(37:53):
history But she's one of many Ithink that's important to know
as well okay, well, thanks forlistening.
If you enjoyed that, pleaselike, comment, subscribe, uh,
tell your friends about us.
We'd like that.
We would like that.
very much.
Okay, catch you next time.
see you later.
Yes, bye.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com