March 4, 2025 • 41 mins
The Untold Story of Geraldine 'Jerrie' Cobb: Pioneering Female Aviator and Space Advocate
This episode of 'She Changed History' dives into the remarkable life of Geraldine 'Jerrie' Cobb, an extraordinary American aviator who paved the way for women in aviation and space exploration. Cobb's story is one of unrelenting determination and self-belief. Despite passing all the physical and psychological tests for becoming an astronaut, she was barred from space due to societal and institutional sexism. Cobb, along with other female pilots, took their fight to Congress in the early 1960s, ultimately contributing to the broader civil rights movement. Though she never made it to space, her legacy lives on in the opportunities she created for future generations of female astronauts.
Sources today are:
The New York Times
Nasa.gov
The Independent newspaper
RealClearPublicAffairs
the washington Post
and the websites of
the NY Metropolitan Library
and the US Congress
00:00 Introduction and Excitement
01:26 Meet Geraldine 'Jerry' Cobb
02:23 Early Life and Passion for Flying
06:29 Challenges and Determination
08:45 Recognition and Achievements
14:57 NASA and the Mercury 13 Program
20:05 The Grueling Tests of Aspiring Astronauts
22:22 Facing Structural Sexism in NASA
23:12 Taking the Fight to Congress
29:40 The Impact of the Civil Rights Act
33:34 Jerry Cobb's Legacy and Recognition
39:11 Honoring Jerry Cobb's Contributions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1814045918 (00:08):
I think, um, you can't go wrong with a bit of
red velvet.
If you don't want red velvet, Idon't want you.
If it's curtains, if it's cakes,if it's carpet, I'm in.
Do you want to dive straightinto it?
Why not?
Let's go.
Shall we do it?
Hi Cara.
(00:28):
Hi Vicky.
This is very exciting.
I am full of the joys.
And a little nervous.
That's okay.
Nervous is good.
I was listening to one of thefirst songs that me and Simon
recorded a while ago.
And, um, I was like, oh, youbet, when it was, it was
literally in July and I waslike, babies.
(00:52):
A lifetime ago.
All right.
So that's, that's where I am onthe timeline right now.
No, no.
You're going to graduate.
Bring yourself back to that.
Graduating with flying colors.
Being fast tracked here.
Okay.
All right.
Well, welcome to She ChangedHistory.
And, hi everyone.
We've got the wonderful Carawith us today who's doing her
(01:12):
first ever read for us.
And I've had a little sneakypeek and it's a good one, so I
can't wait to, to learn It'sgoing to be good.
Excellent.
Well, thank you for the intro.
yes.
So I will get straight into it.
If you think about women inspace, the names that might come
to mind are people like, theSoviet cosmonaut Valentina
(01:34):
Tershikova, who was the firstwoman in space, or perhaps Sally
Ride, who was the first Americanwoman to go to space with NASA.
but a generation before them, acohort of American women took
their battle for the place inthe stars all the way to the U.
S.
Congress.
It didn't ultimately take themwhere they wanted to go, but the
(01:56):
determination of those women,and especially the most
qualified of them, GeraldineJerry Cobb, cleared the runway
for the changes that were tocome.
And the sources for today arethe New York Times, nasa.
gov, the Independent Newspaper,a website called Real Clear
Public Affairs, the WashingtonPost.
(02:17):
on the websites of the New YorkMetropolitan Library and the U.
S.
Congress.
So, we start in Jerry Cobb'searly life.
She was born in 1931 in Norman,Oklahoma, which is a place I've
never been, but it's very easyto imagine, like, wholesome
(02:39):
farmland, red barns, cornfields, that.
Is it South?
Sort of the Midwest, I wouldsay, so yeah, picture that
pastoral America, rural America,and you can't go far wrong.
We've just started, watchingYellowstone on, because it's on
Netflix now.
So when I heard barn, my headwent there, but maybe that's a
(03:00):
little bit more hardcore.
Bring it, bring it backslightly, but yeah, you're not a
million miles away.
Okay.
Let's put it that way.
Think Wizard of Oz vibes.
Got it.
And just to lean into thatstereotype like a little bit
more.
So Geri learned to fly when shewas just 12 years old.
Wow.
And very much the kind ofairplane you would picture from
(03:22):
the 1930s, the kind of fixedwing, open cockpit.
Wooden.
Yeah.
Her dad's the pilot.
She sat there learning all herskills, on his knee and she got
a taste for it.
So by the time she was 16 yearsold, she was out there doing
barnstorming.
Do you know that?
(03:44):
So barnstorming is when thepilot does aerobatic skills and
tricks and either that's forspectators on the ground, or if
you're super brave, you can ridealong with them, like they'll
take you and do tricks and stufflike this.
So, but, but 16 years old.
So she's like.
(04:05):
She's out there barnstormingaway, taking jobs like doing,
leaflet drops for the circus.
And the whole time she's doingthis, as well as presumably
enjoying it, she's saving moneyand going out on these, work
assignments, sleeping under herplane's wing to keep her costs
down when she's away from homeso that she can pay for her
(04:27):
private pilot's license.
And she achieved that whileshe's still in high school.
She's amazing.
And so she's, she's workingaway, getting that done.
do you remember what you did foryour 18th birthday?
I think we were, quite boring.
I went to the cinema, I thinklike it wasn't like this big
(04:48):
turning of Asia.
Yeah, it was Pizza and playedcards.
That was like, that was my,Jerry Cobb, however, she spent
it getting her commercialpilot's license.
I mean, like, that's prettyimmense.
it sounds like she was justdoing her own thing.
Like she wasn't so much worriedabout her peer circle.
Cause I remember I only worry at18 was having friends.
(05:10):
Now I'm like, Pillock.
It sounds like her compass hadalready set that way, yeah,
she's absolutely a selfdetermined woman.
I so hear what you're saying.
At that age already, yeah.
And this is a bit naughtybecause I haven't actually
written down the source for it,but I did read in one of the,
One of the sources, that evenher parents, her dad, who
(05:33):
initially taught her to fly,ultimately said, look, this is
not for you.
This is not a career for you.
And she.
Thought about that and decidedno, thank you.
I've got a quote from her.
she said, I have a feeling thatlife is a spiritual adventure
and I want to make mine in thesky.
(05:53):
So she had this deep vocation.
Yeah, right from, right fromjump, she was out there pushing
and working towards it.
And being so sure of yourself.
I, I love that.
my confidence at 18 was like onthe floor, like it's taken so
long to build it.
That is so, so normal.
And I think relatable.
To feel that way as a youngteen, you don't, even picking
(06:16):
your, your job or youruniversity course, you don't
really know at that age what youlike or what you want or what
you're good at.
You're just sort of fumbling butshe was.
Like a laser, absolutely on it.
And this is one of those storieswhere her timing is great and
her timing is awful.
So I'll explain maybe when shequalified, it was just a few
(06:40):
years after the end of world wartwo.
So she's.
clear.
She knows what she wants.
She knows what she loves andshe's willing to work for it.
However, she's entering the jobmarket at a time where there's
this flood of qualified pilots.
And for reasons both of justunfortunate timing, probably
(07:01):
patriotism, because peoplewanted to support the lads.
They've come back from the war.
But also if you read any of thesources just for sheer reasons
of misogyny.
male pilots are getting thesejobs preferentially.
So she's left, like so many ofthe women you talk about, she's
left with the kind of crumbs Soshe just, goes, all right, then,
(07:23):
and she takes those jobs, shegoes out surveying pipelines
from the air, or doing cropdusting, which is not elegant,
but it gets you those flighttimes.
And while she's doing thosejobs, she's able to pay for her
forward training.
So she's not put off, she'scarrying on.
She's continually investing inherself.
(07:44):
Yeah.
The optimism of it and the sheerself belief.
So brace yourself.
This is what she does.
In the years following her 18thbirthday, she then gets Her
multi engine certificate, herinstrumentation certificate, her
flight instructor certificate,her ground instructor rating,
(08:04):
and then her airline transportlicense.
And these are not cheap.
These are not cheap things.
Yeah.
She's like, she's not living aluxury lifestyle.
You presume because she comesfrom humble beginnings.
She's paying for these thingsherself.
She's investing in.
Her own self belief and her ownoptimism about her career.
(08:25):
Good for her.
Yeah.
Yes.
it's an amazing testament to herself belief and her
determination.
And it kind of pays off becauseshe's 21 years old and she's
done all this stuff, And thingskind of start to turn for the
better for her.
She now, she's getting these.
Contracts to deliver militaryfighter planes and bombers,
(08:49):
giant four engine bomber planes,which are ex war, no longer
needed, or old technology, andthey're being sold off to
foreign air forces.
Oh, interesting.
Like traveling, it gets her intosome kind of precarious
situations.
There's an, just a passing notein one of her obituaries that,
(09:11):
she was arrested briefly inEcuador as a suspect for
espionage.
So she was traveling throughEcuador and they're like, what
are you doing here, lady?
But then they also say that in1959, she was invited to fly in
the Paris air show, which islike this, enormous trade show
every year.
And they respected her.
(09:32):
They gave her the pilot of theyear award, not the female
pilot.
But the pilot of the year award,they also gave her the Amelia
Earhart gold medal ofachievement, which I don't know
what you need to do that.
But it sounds pretty impressiveto me.
Yeah.
So it sounds like almost likethis was her time to flex her
muscles, right?
She was like, now I'm playingwith the big boys.
(09:54):
Now I can, you know, show off alittle bit.
This is it.
And these are pilots who havebeen through.
The same rigorous trainingprograms.
They've also been through warconditions and for the, for them
to turn around and say, okay,this lady's got the chops.
She knows what she's doing.
That is incredible.
But that felt amazing.
(10:14):
I'm sure that it did.
Because she probably idolizedthese people as well.
And then to be a accepted inthat network to even get to
attend this Paris Airshow andthen to succeed in this Paris
Airshow on merit as well likefor them to recognize that she
must have, it must have beenthis virtuous cycle too because
(10:36):
all that self belief and allthat determination Is then met
with.
Acceptance and enthusiasm andreward.
So they're saying, you're right,you are great at this.
Come on in.
I mean, that's not always thecase.
So good for her.
it reminds me a little bit ofTaylor Swift because I don't
know if you've seen herdocumentary on, whatever it is.
(10:59):
They had, clips of her when shewas young, like 16, 17, 18.
And her self belief.
and self determination.
Because she was reading back onher diaries.
I was like, wow, that's prettycool.
And that was probably the onlything that stuck with me without
that whole documentary, was mygod, you really did believe in
yourself.
That's pretty amazing.
And that's what's happened here,isn't it?
(11:20):
Is that no, I believe in myselfand push myself.
I'm going to pay for myself.
I'm going to do all thesethings.
Then to get acknowledged in theway, like Taylor Swift has been
acknowledged, like she's anabsolutely powerful since she,
but in the pilot world, thissounds very similar, right?
I think, it's a really goodcomparison in a really harsh
industry where it'd be quiteeasy to be beaten down by the
(11:45):
negativity.
And I'm.
aware that as I'm reading thesesources, I'm probably not seeing
the struggle.
There were probably manyincidents of the door being
closed in her face or peoplebeing dismissive or her having
to take those like second tierjobs.
Instead of the things she reallycould have done.
(12:05):
So it isn't just handed to themon a plate, but at the same
time, how much of their doing itis because they thought, well,
of course I can do it.
I am going to do it.
Amazing.
All right.
So we have, we've whacked in alot of, a lot of bam, bam, bam
through her career.
I'm going to do a little tinybit more of that.
(12:27):
She's now 28 and she is a pilotand a manager for a company
called Aero Design andEngineering.
Classic.
It's a classic name.
Stanton, really strong, sayswhat it does, does what it says.
She is, it's 1960 and by thispoint she has accrued 7, 000
(12:49):
hours of flying time.
And to give you like a littlebasis of comparison, a modern
commercial pilot, so you know,the EasyJet crew, the people who
are bam, always out there,always doing it.
They in that same period of timewould have accrued about 9, 900
hours on average.
So considering she's on par andshe's on par for someone who
(13:11):
hasn't been being paid to be acommercial pilot.
if you sit down with her.
Yeah, really good.
She's She's Push in.
She's busting it out.
And then we roll into 1961.
And this is where we get wherewe were heading.
she has come to the attention ofthe American population as a
whole.
They're aware of her as a pilot.
She was used by AmericanAirlines to promote one of their
(13:35):
planes.
Like a post it girl.
Kind of, but a poster pilot.
So they did not hire femalepilots at this time.
However, imagine like a mad menstyle marketing room and they're
going, women don't like thisplane.
Why don't the ladies like thisplane?
We need to fix that.
So they invite Jerry Cobb, whois a well known, wholesome
(13:56):
American go getter.
Um, and they say, could youplease do a test flight in this
plane and just show the ladiesthat it's cool.
They didn't like offer her a jobor anything, don't be crazy, but
they wanted her to do this.
So she's, she's caught thepublic's attention.
She's seen as trustworthy,hardworking.
(14:17):
How do you say no in thatsituation?
This is, yeah, so this is partof her story and we'll come to
some more about that because oneof the things that I think.
Got her as far as she went isthat she, she played the game to
get the gain and did not say,No, I want to be a pilot or
(14:40):
nothing at all.
She went, All right, I'll doyour test flight.
Fine.
And then open that door.
That's it.
Yeah.
Hey, all right.
We're all in the room.
You see what I can do.
Why wouldn't you let me havethese chances?
She's being like positive,positive, positive.
And then James Webb, which is aname you might recognize from
(15:02):
that there space telescope, theone taking beautiful photographs
of the faraway galaxy.
So James, that guy, the one thatnamed that.
After, was setting up his teamat NASA and he decided to invite
her to come on as a consultantand she always wanted to be, as
(15:23):
far as she could go, as far asshe could go.
She wanted to explore.
She wanted to take herself.
Into these new terrains.
So for her, this is anincredible opportunity, even
more exciting.
She's invited by a man calledLovelace to come along to a
pioneering program where he wasgoing to test the suitability
(15:45):
for women in space.
And you can see a photo of herthere.
She is standing with a NASAlanding craft, happy.
Happy as can be and justbeaming.
She's, she's delighted.
She also looks like, she alsolooks like proper old girl
(16:05):
American.
Yeah.
Like her hair's in like pinnedin roller kind of thing.
She's got like the 1960s kindof, well, a bit before that,
maybe with the long prim dressand the little button up shirt.
Very, very Dorothy.
Very, and then she stood next tothis fricking space like craft
thing.
Like you say, happy as a clam,right?
(16:27):
If you kind of covered up thehalf of that photograph that has
the landing craft in it andthought, what is this girl
standing next to?
You would imagine a boy or maybeher prize winning horse or like,
it's such a.
Wholesome, farmland, Americanaimage, you can see how happy she
is.
(16:47):
And I am going to bring the viberight down because, uh, maybe
not all the way down, but yeah,so she's invited to take part in
this program and that theprogram I'll refer to it a few
times.
It's called the Mercury 13.
Lovelace's background is that hedesigned all of the tests that
the NASA pilots, would be putthrough.
(17:09):
So he was the doctor whoestablished the standards that
astronauts needed to meet tosafely go into space.
And so this is where it getsmaybe a little bit nuanced.
It sounds amazing.
The reality is a little bit moremixed.
so the Mercury 13 program wasprivately funded and not part of
(17:33):
NASA.
Lovelace, who had developedthese NASA tests, became
curious.
Say the documents about howwomen would do and you think
great and then you sort of gowell Why did he get curious?
And so I've got a quote.
Do you want to get rid ofsomeone?
Shoot a woman that Larry didn'tlike?
Well, maybe.
(17:54):
Maybe.
I've got my ex wife here.
It's not quite as dark as that,but I like, You know, you're
taking it into true crime.
Instantly.
So that he is His colleaguesaid, even before anyone had
gone into space, Lovelace wasalready thinking about huge
orbiting space stations.
And in Lovelace's view, womenwere to function as an essential
(18:18):
part of the space stations,working as secretaries or
nurses.
And so, yeah, so close.
That's so disappointing, Cara.
So close.
so to determine if women wouldbe able to survive in space, he
invited Cobb to perform the sametests that he had used on the
Mercury astronaut candidates.
Fine.
(18:38):
yeah.
So close.
So he wanted cities in the sky.
He wanted cities in the sky.
He wanted like Elon Musk, we'reall going to move to Mars,
everything's going to beamazing.
He was ahead of his time in somany ways.
And he opened those doors in somany ways, but his vision,
though radical enough to includefloating cities, was not radical
(18:58):
enough to include women doinganything but the kind of
boilerplate jobs that he hadseen women do.
It's like the saying was downhere, we can't improve, earth is
perfect.
Yeah, we are.
Golden.
Let's just leave it.
We've got this down on earth.
Take it up there.
Tickety boo.
Everything's good.
So yeah, it isn't recorded inany of the sources that I read
(19:20):
what Jerry Cobb or the otherwomen who accepted his
invitation thought.
I have seen multiple quoteswhere, she says again and again.
Women are up to the task ofbeing fully fledged astronauts.
So, what do we surmise from thefact that she and the others
took this on?
(19:41):
It's the same predicament we hadearlier, right?
Yes.
It's like, how do you say no inthat situation?
You say Yeah.
You either say Take that fold itup till it's really pointy and
stuff it or you say, all right.
Yeah, I'm gonna show you Yeah,I'm gonna make you so aware of
my capability that you have togive me the opportunity I'm
(20:02):
gonna excel more than you couldever believe.
Yeah, so I'm assuming here thatis what was going on in her and
the other pilots heads Becausethat's what they did.
Oh, would you like to hear aboutthese tests, by the way?
That's a frickin lootly.
Okay.
So I'm thinking.
And these are the same tests asthe men went through.
Same tests.
(20:22):
Exactly.
Same tests.
Because we need to know.
Those tests were, Physiologistsaying, what does it take to
survive and to work in anemergency scenario in space?
And he wanted to make sure hewasn't sending anyone up there
who would then become aliability.
It's a tricky environment,obviously.
(20:42):
So here's what the Independentsaid to describe the tests that
she and all the other astronautcandidates went through.
Cold water was shot into herears to induce vertigo.
Okay.
Then she had to swallow threefeet of rubber hose to have a
stomach exam.
They're pouring radioactivefluid down there.
(21:03):
So the science scientists canlook at her metabolism.
Of course.
She spent.
a record setting, nine hours inan isolation chamber, a dark,
silent tank of water.
And then for 45 minutes, shepiloted the machine the gimbal
rig.
And these are their words, agyroscopic vomit inducing space
(21:25):
flight simulator.
spinning her on three axes atonce.
Horrific.
And there's a photo there of herin the gimbal rig.
She's smiling.
She's smiling.
She's like, yes, give me this.
I am up for this.
So how did she do?
She was the first and only womanto pass every single physical
(21:48):
and every psychological test.
And she not only passed, shetested at the top 2 percent of
candidates in either gender.
So she isn't just scraping.
She's smashing it.
Ideal candidate.
Ideal in every way.
And I'm thinking if you're her,having put it all out there,
(22:10):
proved yourself.
Absolutely.
In uncertain terms, she's got tobe thinking, I'm in.
I'm ready.
Let's go.
Let's go to space.
However, this is another exampleof her being on time, but too
early because at that time, NASAdictated that astronaut trainees
(22:36):
had To be jet fighter pilots.
But they wouldn't let women dothat.
They would not let women do thatrole.
So de facto, you cannot be thisjob.
So your Jerry Cobb.
Your dream that you've worked,scrimped, saved, sacrificed to
attain, you've proved you cando, 100 percent you can do the
(22:56):
role, and it's held out of reachbecause of structural sexism.
Don't have a willy.
You don't have a willy, sorry,go home.
Maybe we'll ask you to be asecretary sometime.
So, not ideal.
She thought.
All right, then I'm not going tojust let that stand and she,
(23:17):
along with others around her,including the other astronaut
candidates, took it to Congress,they went forward and I'm going
to quote now, it's a bitconfusing, so bear with me, but
in 2023, a representative put abill to Congress to give the
congressional gold medal to TheMercury 13 women to recognize
(23:42):
their contributions toaeronautics and to equality So
that piece includes this quote,which describes, I think, quite
succinctly how the congressionalhearing like what it was about.
So.
Geraldine Jerry Cobb and JaneJaney Briggs Hart spoke to
(24:03):
Congress to advocate for thecontinuation of their program.
That, in turn, led to aninvestigation into
discrimination on the basis ofsex, which took place two years
before the Civil Rights Act waspassed.
I'll say more about that, butthat is still a foundational
document that Opens up theworkplace for all we're in 1962
(24:29):
that act.
Has not even been ratified yet,and she and the others are there
and here's what Jerry Cobb hadto say.
She at that hearing said, wewomen pilots who want to be part
of the research andparticipation and space
exploration are not trying tojoin a battle of the sexes.
(24:50):
As pilots, we fly and sharemutual respect with male pilots
in the primarily man's world ofaviation.
We very well know how to livetogether in our profession.
We see only a place in ournation's space future without
discrimination.
And she's like, boom, you know,mic drop.
(25:10):
I'm not interested in your.
Oh, women are asking for toomuch.
Oh, should we give them this?
She's like, you're not giving meanything, mate.
I can do that.
And you are going to let me.
And I think that's reallyimportant to know as well.
Cause in that quote, she says aspilots, you know, we have mutual
respect for male pilots.
Like being a secretary and beinga nurse is absolutely valid,
(25:34):
absolutely valid, but that's notwhat she wanted.
She wanted to be a pilot.
And it's, I really hope that Ihaven't come across as kind of
denigrating that.
That work, all of these thingsare important, but what isn't
okay is for somebody to besiloed into a particular career
path because, because, andwhether that be a male or a
(25:57):
female, you cannot exempt peoplefrom a whole field of work.
People who are really, reallygood at it but yes, absolutely.
if she was a secretary, if shewas a nurse, if she was a stay
at home mom, she would have beenthe best that whatever she was,
because that was her persona,she just put herself to it.
(26:19):
Yeah, she really put it outthere.
It's the certainty.
Again, the surety.
Not only that I can, but thatthis is going to happen.
Um, okay.
You know what?
That, that probably stems fromhaving a dad who had your back
or having parents who, even ifthey didn't say it out loud or
said this isn't for you, theystill let you try, they still
(26:39):
took you on their knee and madeyou part of that experience.
That's very true.
And that's actions speak louderthan words, isn't it?
even though the dad said thisisn't really for you, I'm going
to take you anyway.
that speaks volume, isn't it?
I think, yeah, it's easy toimagine that when he's saying
this isn't for you.
What he was trying to do maybewas to warn her, the world isn't
(27:00):
gonna let you do this, but herfaith in herself and her
optimism, let her say.
Well, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,yeah.
So for all of that eloquence andpositivity and just reason, just
logic, we have the tide of thetimes pushing back.
(27:24):
So this is, unfortunate to mebecause, John Glenn, astronaut
John Glenn is kind of a nationaltreasure, but he was a man of
his time.
And.
Okay.
Spoke at that congressionalhearing and unfortunately put
the boot in and said, Men go offand fight the wars and fly the
planes.
The fact that women are not inthis field is a fact of our
(27:46):
social order.
Mm.
It's very Churchill.
Churchill was very like that,wasn't he?
Blinkered.
Absolutely blinkered.
And then the vice president, atthe time was Johnson and he kind
of was putting in as well.
And there's a memo, there's aprintout you can see of it in
the library saying on themargins, he wrote, let's stop
(28:08):
this now, next to her words.
Like, absolutely not.
So for context and withoutcomment, I will tell you at this
point that between 1948 and1951.
So not long before thiscongressional hearing, NASA was
launching a series of monkeysinto space in test flights.
(28:32):
And, yeah, I do have a smallcomment, which is, how
entrenched is your misogyny ifyou think female astronauts are
against nature, but scooping upa monkey and shooting it in a
rocket is perfectly fine?
Like, guys.
Come on, we can do better.
(28:52):
We can do better.
My chest has gone so tight.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's infuriating.
And the poor monkeys.
I mean, it's just.
The poor monkeys.
In every direction.
It just.
It's not good enough.
So the congressional hearingrolled on and Cobb and the other
women did not get the resultthat they wanted, which is
(29:13):
devastating.
And for all of her positivity,Cobb, resigned from NASA.
Okay.
So that was like her, that waslike her protest.
I think, or just her sort ofthinking, this isn't happening
for me.
This isn't going to lead where Ithought, what more can I do,
perhaps?
(29:34):
I do, I don't know, is thetruth.
I don't know.
But that's the point where sheparts ways with NASA.
And It wasn't until 1972 thatthat Civil Rights Act amendment
that I was talking about in thecongressional hearing kicked in,
and that, Title VII, it says,prohibits employment
(29:55):
discrimination based on race,color, religion, sex, national
origin, disability, or age, andit rendered that insistence on
jet fighter pilot trainingprecluding women effectively
from, that could no longer bethe case.
So NASA, inducted its firstclass of women in 1972.
(30:16):
1972.
Yeah.
So very much in her lifetime.
Immediately on it.
She's still alive, but she'snow.
Not at the peak of her physicalfitness, she, she's now missed
that, that opportunity forherself, for that level of
rigor, that testing that she hadalready undergone, more than a
decade before.
(30:36):
So NASA is bringing these newwomen in and they've invented a
new job role to cover the factthat they aren't.
That pathway of jet fighterpilot, test pilot, astronaut,
they are the mission specialist,which I'm saying as a job role,
absolutely great.
(30:57):
I'd be delighted to have it.
And I'm thrilled that NASA didthat the minute it was possible
for them to, it's so parallel totoday, isn't it?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because they're removing nowwomen's biographies, aren't
they, off their websites andstuff like that.
this is such a poignant time tobe talking about these things
(31:20):
and talking about, well, I mean,yeah, I'll come to that.
I don't want to preempt myselftoo much, but yeah, it really,
when I was figuring my waythrough this.
Don't know if you get this whenyou're writing things, but
you're like, how do I explainwhy I just find this woman so
cool?
And then you start going, Oh,because it reflects.
(31:41):
And the work, the struggle, iseverything that's being unpicked
it takes the wind out of yoursails.
Yeah.
A little bit, yeah.
The pendulum will swing back andit'll swing back harder.
It will.
So, sorry, I'll, I'm goingwildly off on a troll off.
Shake it off, shake it off,shake, shake off the Trump.
Right, let's talk, let's talksome more about Jerry Cobb.
(32:04):
and the fact that these shortsighted measures, So America at
this time, it's roll it back alittle to the 60s when this
congressional hearing is goingon, it's the space race, we're
headed against the Russians.
We're going to, America's goingto be first to the moon.
America's going to blah, blah,blah.
Yeah.
(32:24):
Well.
So publicly as well, wasn't it?
So publicly.
So publicly.
Resting so much civic pride onit.
And mean times.
This whole holding back onletting these women achieve cost
America the space race inequality terms.
So, Jerry Cobb's talking to theNew York Times about the Soviet
(32:47):
launch of Valentina Teshkova,the cosmonaut, first woman in
space.
And Jerry Cobb's saying, it's ashame.
Since, I'll get this, a shamethat since we are eventually
going to put a woman into space,we didn't go ahead and do it
first.
Bam! Yes, Jerry! Yes! Bam! Andeven Tershikova is getting in on
(33:07):
it.
Yeah! And she said to her,Soviet government newspapers
about the American politicians,they shout at every turn about
their democracy, and at the sametime, they announced they will
not let a woman into space.
This is open inequality.
So she's just like, you can keepit.
You talk about how great youare.
(33:28):
Show me you're showing menothing.
I love, I love these women.
It costs America as well ascosting Cobb and that, that's
heartbreaking because she nevergot to fulfill her potential and
that we were just saying this,it's a key to her story.
It's a key to a lot of the womenthat we talk about on the
(33:49):
podcast and we want thesestories.
Like just, it's so satisfyingwhen the goal is reached or the
inequity is overturned butsometimes.
The win is part of a biggereffort and these women like
Jerry Cobb are contributing tothis aggregate change that takes
(34:12):
lifetimes, not one lifetime,several to heal the results.
And we benefit or we worktowards their ongoing goals even
now.
So with people who didn't get tobenefit themselves, I think
what.
And what is especiallygratifying is to see the
recognition coming back towardsthem.
(34:34):
So I have a quote here fromastronaut, Anna Fisher, who flew
in the space shuttle in 1984 andshe says of the Mercury 13.
They wanted it so badly, andthen we came along and caught
the wave at just the right timewhen society was changing.
(34:55):
I felt so grateful to them andsad that they weren't able to
achieve their dream, but theydid in a way by opening the door
for us.
Oh my god.
Anna is, um, she's sociallyaware.
Yes.
That is so, humbling.
Yeah, she knows that she is one.
(35:17):
Yeah.
And standing on the shoulders ofthese giants and that's during
Cobb's lifetime that this isbeing said.
So that is beautiful.
And, you know, for Cobb, Oh,this is, this is hard to hear,
but there's a quote here fromCobb, saying she didn't make it
to space, but she never gave uphoping she said.
(35:39):
At age 67 in 1999, I would givemy life to fly in space.
It's hard for me to talk aboutit, but I would.
I would then and I will now.
She never stopped wanting it.
How many just send her?
Like, it can't be that hard.
Let it happen.
And there were, one of thecommercial space, flights that
(36:00):
was owned by a private companywho took one of the other female
candidates who couldn't go andshe was part of their crew.
And I believe that at thatpoint, which was within the last
10 years, she was the oldestwoman to ever go into space.
So that would have been deeplymeaningful to her.
(36:21):
And unfortunately, Jerry Cobbnever got that chance, although
so the biographer Martha Ackman,who wrote a book about the
Mercury 13 said Cobb was neverbitter and delighted in the
accomplishments of the today'sfemale astronauts.
But there was about her a deepreservoir of disappointment.
(36:41):
If you look at those picturesfrom the start, those pictures
of pure glee and excitement anddreams that could have it's the
hope that kills you.
Yeah.
So I'm not going to leave us ona downer.
I will tell you that althoughyou can see it would be really
(37:01):
easy to become very bitter.
But, um, Cobb didn't, she hadthis reserve within her, this
It's wellspring of positivityand okay, this is what we're
going to do.
And she turned all that energytowards service.
her remaining decades of life,she was still a pilot.
(37:22):
She was flying humanitarianmissions into the Amazon to
deliver food, medicine andclothing to indigenous people.
And this is her second career.
This is her like, yeah, this isher like retired hobby.
I'm just going to go.
She was out there finding newroots across the Andes mountains
and the Amazon rainforest.
I'm not only going to fly, I'mgoing to fly solo across the
(37:44):
Andes.
And by the way, found thisroute.
It's a bit better than what youwere using.
Thanks.
Bye.
She's incredible.
And she ultimately was nominatedfor the Nobel peace prize.
And she was inducted into theAmerican National Aviation Hall
of Fame in 2012, which again waswithin her lifetime.
Okay.
And the reason I know about herat all is because she is the
(38:08):
basis for a character on anApple TV series called For All
Mankind.
Oh, wow.
And And the character they basedon her is called Molly Cobb.
And she's, she's just thislittle badass lady, who I think
it's really interesting showbecause it takes this time in
(38:31):
American history as a jumpingoff point and does speculative
science fiction, about how wouldthe world have been different if
these female pilots.
in America had been allowed totake the roles they were
qualified for on The FirstAsking.
Oh, damn right.
It's such a good series.
(38:51):
It aired for the first timeeight months after Jerry Cobb
died, so we're not, we're nottalking about like looking at
some deep historical.
This isn't hundreds of yearsago.
Yeah.
Right?
So this is what strikes me.
It's what we were just talkingabout.
This sort of relative closenessof these times.
(39:11):
And especially right now, whenwomen's contributions to
American institutions are beingpainted over, sometimes
literally, physically, it's soimportant to talk about women
like Jeri Cobb and to rememberhow recent their struggles
actually are.
(39:31):
And that's it.
That's what I have to say today.
That's the story of Jeri Cobb.
That's the story of Jeri Cobband the women who took the
baton.
And ran with it after shesacrificed so much.
Oh my god, Chorus.
There you go.
I feel quite, um emotional, youknow?
Yeah.
(39:52):
Because 2019, that's so re Also,Apple TV have so many hidden
gems like that, don't they?
Oh, I know.
They're good at making TV.
I like, I like to talk that oneup, that probably of all of
them, we devour it.
And I mean, I love I wish I hadthe source for this quote, but
somebody was talking aboutloving the first generation of
(40:16):
Star Trek because it was thefirst time they saw someone who
looked like them.
And this was a person of a nonwhite, background.
And they said, this is the firsttime I've seen someone who looks
like me depicted in the future.
Like doing a job, being like,just no questions asked.
They're just a part of society.
(40:36):
I love sci fi and stuff like ForAll Mankind is taking it where I
want to see it go.
It's going, how could thingshave been different?
How could things have beenbetter or worse or whatever?
But just It is not even up fornegotiation.
We are all included.
Yes.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Oh my gosh.
Well, thank you so much, Cara.
(40:56):
My pleasure.
How did that feel?
Yeah.
Like, I'm, I'm less nervous nowthat I'm thinking, Oh God.
Did you enjoy it?
I really did.
And I, I think it helps whenit's somebody who you just have
so much admiration for becauseyou're excited.
And I didn't know about her.
So I've definitely learnedsomething.
(41:17):
So so much.
Thank you for allowing me.
That was really neat.
And thank you everyone forlistening.
And I hope you enjoyed it too.
If you did, please follow us onInstagram, like, share,
subscribe.
These episodes, you know, that'sthe only way we can get these
stories.
All right, me and Cara aretelling each other, but we need
(41:37):
to share.
Yeah, we're enjoying ourselves,but we want to bring you all.
And, thank you so much forlistening and we'll catch you
next time.
See you later.
Thank you.
I think, um, you can't go wrong with a bit of
red velvet.
If you don't want red velvet, Idon't want you.
If it's curtains, if it's cakes,if it's carpet, I'm in.
Do you want to dive straightinto it?
Why not?
Let's go.
Shall we do it?
Hi Cara.
(00:28):
Hi Vicky.
This is very exciting.
I am full of the joys.
And a little nervous.
That's okay.
Nervous is good.
I was listening to one of thefirst songs that me and Simon
recorded a while ago.
And, um, I was like, oh, youbet, when it was, it was
literally in July and I waslike, babies.
(00:52):
A lifetime ago.
All right.
So that's, that's where I am onthe timeline right now.
No, no.
You're going to graduate.
Bring yourself back to that.
Graduating with flying colors.
Being fast tracked here.
Okay.
All right.
Well, welcome to She ChangedHistory.
And, hi everyone.
We've got the wonderful Carawith us today who's doing her
(01:12):
first ever read for us.
And I've had a little sneakypeek and it's a good one, so I
can't wait to, to learn It'sgoing to be good.
Excellent.
Well, thank you for the intro.
yes.
So I will get straight into it.
If you think about women inspace, the names that might come
to mind are people like, theSoviet cosmonaut Valentina
(01:34):
Tershikova, who was the firstwoman in space, or perhaps Sally
Ride, who was the first Americanwoman to go to space with NASA.
but a generation before them, acohort of American women took
their battle for the place inthe stars all the way to the U.
S.
Congress.
It didn't ultimately take themwhere they wanted to go, but the
(01:56):
determination of those women,and especially the most
qualified of them, GeraldineJerry Cobb, cleared the runway
for the changes that were tocome.
And the sources for today arethe New York Times, nasa.
gov, the Independent Newspaper,a website called Real Clear
Public Affairs, the WashingtonPost.
(02:17):
on the websites of the New YorkMetropolitan Library and the U.
S.
Congress.
So, we start in Jerry Cobb'searly life.
She was born in 1931 in Norman,Oklahoma, which is a place I've
never been, but it's very easyto imagine, like, wholesome
(02:39):
farmland, red barns, cornfields, that.
Is it South?
Sort of the Midwest, I wouldsay, so yeah, picture that
pastoral America, rural America,and you can't go far wrong.
We've just started, watchingYellowstone on, because it's on
Netflix now.
So when I heard barn, my headwent there, but maybe that's a
(03:00):
little bit more hardcore.
Bring it, bring it backslightly, but yeah, you're not a
million miles away.
Okay.
Let's put it that way.
Think Wizard of Oz vibes.
Got it.
And just to lean into thatstereotype like a little bit
more.
So Geri learned to fly when shewas just 12 years old.
Wow.
And very much the kind ofairplane you would picture from
(03:22):
the 1930s, the kind of fixedwing, open cockpit.
Wooden.
Yeah.
Her dad's the pilot.
She sat there learning all herskills, on his knee and she got
a taste for it.
So by the time she was 16 yearsold, she was out there doing
barnstorming.
Do you know that?
(03:44):
So barnstorming is when thepilot does aerobatic skills and
tricks and either that's forspectators on the ground, or if
you're super brave, you can ridealong with them, like they'll
take you and do tricks and stufflike this.
So, but, but 16 years old.
So she's like.
(04:05):
She's out there barnstormingaway, taking jobs like doing,
leaflet drops for the circus.
And the whole time she's doingthis, as well as presumably
enjoying it, she's saving moneyand going out on these, work
assignments, sleeping under herplane's wing to keep her costs
down when she's away from homeso that she can pay for her
(04:27):
private pilot's license.
And she achieved that whileshe's still in high school.
She's amazing.
And so she's, she's workingaway, getting that done.
do you remember what you did foryour 18th birthday?
I think we were, quite boring.
I went to the cinema, I thinklike it wasn't like this big
(04:48):
turning of Asia.
Yeah, it was Pizza and playedcards.
That was like, that was my,Jerry Cobb, however, she spent
it getting her commercialpilot's license.
I mean, like, that's prettyimmense.
it sounds like she was justdoing her own thing.
Like she wasn't so much worriedabout her peer circle.
Cause I remember I only worry at18 was having friends.
(05:10):
Now I'm like, Pillock.
It sounds like her compass hadalready set that way, yeah,
she's absolutely a selfdetermined woman.
I so hear what you're saying.
At that age already, yeah.
And this is a bit naughtybecause I haven't actually
written down the source for it,but I did read in one of the,
One of the sources, that evenher parents, her dad, who
(05:33):
initially taught her to fly,ultimately said, look, this is
not for you.
This is not a career for you.
And she.
Thought about that and decidedno, thank you.
I've got a quote from her.
she said, I have a feeling thatlife is a spiritual adventure
and I want to make mine in thesky.
(05:53):
So she had this deep vocation.
Yeah, right from, right fromjump, she was out there pushing
and working towards it.
And being so sure of yourself.
I, I love that.
my confidence at 18 was like onthe floor, like it's taken so
long to build it.
That is so, so normal.
And I think relatable.
To feel that way as a youngteen, you don't, even picking
(06:16):
your, your job or youruniversity course, you don't
really know at that age what youlike or what you want or what
you're good at.
You're just sort of fumbling butshe was.
Like a laser, absolutely on it.
And this is one of those storieswhere her timing is great and
her timing is awful.
So I'll explain maybe when shequalified, it was just a few
(06:40):
years after the end of world wartwo.
So she's.
clear.
She knows what she wants.
She knows what she loves andshe's willing to work for it.
However, she's entering the jobmarket at a time where there's
this flood of qualified pilots.
And for reasons both of justunfortunate timing, probably
(07:01):
patriotism, because peoplewanted to support the lads.
They've come back from the war.
But also if you read any of thesources just for sheer reasons
of misogyny.
male pilots are getting thesejobs preferentially.
So she's left, like so many ofthe women you talk about, she's
left with the kind of crumbs Soshe just, goes, all right, then,
(07:23):
and she takes those jobs, shegoes out surveying pipelines
from the air, or doing cropdusting, which is not elegant,
but it gets you those flighttimes.
And while she's doing thosejobs, she's able to pay for her
forward training.
So she's not put off, she'scarrying on.
She's continually investing inherself.
(07:44):
Yeah.
The optimism of it and the sheerself belief.
So brace yourself.
This is what she does.
In the years following her 18thbirthday, she then gets Her
multi engine certificate, herinstrumentation certificate, her
flight instructor certificate,her ground instructor rating,
(08:04):
and then her airline transportlicense.
And these are not cheap.
These are not cheap things.
Yeah.
She's like, she's not living aluxury lifestyle.
You presume because she comesfrom humble beginnings.
She's paying for these thingsherself.
She's investing in.
Her own self belief and her ownoptimism about her career.
(08:25):
Good for her.
Yeah.
Yes.
it's an amazing testament to herself belief and her
determination.
And it kind of pays off becauseshe's 21 years old and she's
done all this stuff, And thingskind of start to turn for the
better for her.
She now, she's getting these.
Contracts to deliver militaryfighter planes and bombers,
(08:49):
giant four engine bomber planes,which are ex war, no longer
needed, or old technology, andthey're being sold off to
foreign air forces.
Oh, interesting.
Like traveling, it gets her intosome kind of precarious
situations.
There's an, just a passing notein one of her obituaries that,
(09:11):
she was arrested briefly inEcuador as a suspect for
espionage.
So she was traveling throughEcuador and they're like, what
are you doing here, lady?
But then they also say that in1959, she was invited to fly in
the Paris air show, which islike this, enormous trade show
every year.
And they respected her.
(09:32):
They gave her the pilot of theyear award, not the female
pilot.
But the pilot of the year award,they also gave her the Amelia
Earhart gold medal ofachievement, which I don't know
what you need to do that.
But it sounds pretty impressiveto me.
Yeah.
So it sounds like almost likethis was her time to flex her
muscles, right?
She was like, now I'm playingwith the big boys.
(09:54):
Now I can, you know, show off alittle bit.
This is it.
And these are pilots who havebeen through.
The same rigorous trainingprograms.
They've also been through warconditions and for the, for them
to turn around and say, okay,this lady's got the chops.
She knows what she's doing.
That is incredible.
But that felt amazing.
(10:14):
I'm sure that it did.
Because she probably idolizedthese people as well.
And then to be a accepted inthat network to even get to
attend this Paris Airshow andthen to succeed in this Paris
Airshow on merit as well likefor them to recognize that she
must have, it must have beenthis virtuous cycle too because
(10:36):
all that self belief and allthat determination Is then met
with.
Acceptance and enthusiasm andreward.
So they're saying, you're right,you are great at this.
Come on in.
I mean, that's not always thecase.
So good for her.
it reminds me a little bit ofTaylor Swift because I don't
know if you've seen herdocumentary on, whatever it is.
(10:59):
They had, clips of her when shewas young, like 16, 17, 18.
And her self belief.
and self determination.
Because she was reading back onher diaries.
I was like, wow, that's prettycool.
And that was probably the onlything that stuck with me without
that whole documentary, was mygod, you really did believe in
yourself.
That's pretty amazing.
And that's what's happened here,isn't it?
(11:20):
Is that no, I believe in myselfand push myself.
I'm going to pay for myself.
I'm going to do all thesethings.
Then to get acknowledged in theway, like Taylor Swift has been
acknowledged, like she's anabsolutely powerful since she,
but in the pilot world, thissounds very similar, right?
I think, it's a really goodcomparison in a really harsh
industry where it'd be quiteeasy to be beaten down by the
(11:45):
negativity.
And I'm.
aware that as I'm reading thesesources, I'm probably not seeing
the struggle.
There were probably manyincidents of the door being
closed in her face or peoplebeing dismissive or her having
to take those like second tierjobs.
Instead of the things she reallycould have done.
(12:05):
So it isn't just handed to themon a plate, but at the same
time, how much of their doing itis because they thought, well,
of course I can do it.
I am going to do it.
Amazing.
All right.
So we have, we've whacked in alot of, a lot of bam, bam, bam
through her career.
I'm going to do a little tinybit more of that.
(12:27):
She's now 28 and she is a pilotand a manager for a company
called Aero Design andEngineering.
Classic.
It's a classic name.
Stanton, really strong, sayswhat it does, does what it says.
She is, it's 1960 and by thispoint she has accrued 7, 000
(12:49):
hours of flying time.
And to give you like a littlebasis of comparison, a modern
commercial pilot, so you know,the EasyJet crew, the people who
are bam, always out there,always doing it.
They in that same period of timewould have accrued about 9, 900
hours on average.
So considering she's on par andshe's on par for someone who
(13:11):
hasn't been being paid to be acommercial pilot.
if you sit down with her.
Yeah, really good.
She's She's Push in.
She's busting it out.
And then we roll into 1961.
And this is where we get wherewe were heading.
she has come to the attention ofthe American population as a
whole.
They're aware of her as a pilot.
She was used by AmericanAirlines to promote one of their
(13:35):
planes.
Like a post it girl.
Kind of, but a poster pilot.
So they did not hire femalepilots at this time.
However, imagine like a mad menstyle marketing room and they're
going, women don't like thisplane.
Why don't the ladies like thisplane?
We need to fix that.
So they invite Jerry Cobb, whois a well known, wholesome
(13:56):
American go getter.
Um, and they say, could youplease do a test flight in this
plane and just show the ladiesthat it's cool.
They didn't like offer her a jobor anything, don't be crazy, but
they wanted her to do this.
So she's, she's caught thepublic's attention.
She's seen as trustworthy,hardworking.
(14:17):
How do you say no in thatsituation?
This is, yeah, so this is partof her story and we'll come to
some more about that because oneof the things that I think.
Got her as far as she went isthat she, she played the game to
get the gain and did not say,No, I want to be a pilot or
(14:40):
nothing at all.
She went, All right, I'll doyour test flight.
Fine.
And then open that door.
That's it.
Yeah.
Hey, all right.
We're all in the room.
You see what I can do.
Why wouldn't you let me havethese chances?
She's being like positive,positive, positive.
And then James Webb, which is aname you might recognize from
(15:02):
that there space telescope, theone taking beautiful photographs
of the faraway galaxy.
So James, that guy, the one thatnamed that.
After, was setting up his teamat NASA and he decided to invite
her to come on as a consultantand she always wanted to be, as
(15:23):
far as she could go, as far asshe could go.
She wanted to explore.
She wanted to take herself.
Into these new terrains.
So for her, this is anincredible opportunity, even
more exciting.
She's invited by a man calledLovelace to come along to a
pioneering program where he wasgoing to test the suitability
(15:45):
for women in space.
And you can see a photo of herthere.
She is standing with a NASAlanding craft, happy.
Happy as can be and justbeaming.
She's, she's delighted.
She also looks like, she alsolooks like proper old girl
(16:05):
American.
Yeah.
Like her hair's in like pinnedin roller kind of thing.
She's got like the 1960s kindof, well, a bit before that,
maybe with the long prim dressand the little button up shirt.
Very, very Dorothy.
Very, and then she stood next tothis fricking space like craft
thing.
Like you say, happy as a clam,right?
(16:27):
If you kind of covered up thehalf of that photograph that has
the landing craft in it andthought, what is this girl
standing next to?
You would imagine a boy or maybeher prize winning horse or like,
it's such a.
Wholesome, farmland, Americanaimage, you can see how happy she
is.
(16:47):
And I am going to bring the viberight down because, uh, maybe
not all the way down, but yeah,so she's invited to take part in
this program and that theprogram I'll refer to it a few
times.
It's called the Mercury 13.
Lovelace's background is that hedesigned all of the tests that
the NASA pilots, would be putthrough.
(17:09):
So he was the doctor whoestablished the standards that
astronauts needed to meet tosafely go into space.
And so this is where it getsmaybe a little bit nuanced.
It sounds amazing.
The reality is a little bit moremixed.
so the Mercury 13 program wasprivately funded and not part of
(17:33):
NASA.
Lovelace, who had developedthese NASA tests, became
curious.
Say the documents about howwomen would do and you think
great and then you sort of gowell Why did he get curious?
And so I've got a quote.
Do you want to get rid ofsomeone?
Shoot a woman that Larry didn'tlike?
Well, maybe.
(17:54):
Maybe.
I've got my ex wife here.
It's not quite as dark as that,but I like, You know, you're
taking it into true crime.
Instantly.
So that he is His colleaguesaid, even before anyone had
gone into space, Lovelace wasalready thinking about huge
orbiting space stations.
And in Lovelace's view, womenwere to function as an essential
(18:18):
part of the space stations,working as secretaries or
nurses.
And so, yeah, so close.
That's so disappointing, Cara.
So close.
so to determine if women wouldbe able to survive in space, he
invited Cobb to perform the sametests that he had used on the
Mercury astronaut candidates.
Fine.
(18:38):
yeah.
So close.
So he wanted cities in the sky.
He wanted cities in the sky.
He wanted like Elon Musk, we'reall going to move to Mars,
everything's going to beamazing.
He was ahead of his time in somany ways.
And he opened those doors in somany ways, but his vision,
though radical enough to includefloating cities, was not radical
(18:58):
enough to include women doinganything but the kind of
boilerplate jobs that he hadseen women do.
It's like the saying was downhere, we can't improve, earth is
perfect.
Yeah, we are.
Golden.
Let's just leave it.
We've got this down on earth.
Take it up there.
Tickety boo.
Everything's good.
So yeah, it isn't recorded inany of the sources that I read
(19:20):
what Jerry Cobb or the otherwomen who accepted his
invitation thought.
I have seen multiple quoteswhere, she says again and again.
Women are up to the task ofbeing fully fledged astronauts.
So, what do we surmise from thefact that she and the others
took this on?
(19:41):
It's the same predicament we hadearlier, right?
Yes.
It's like, how do you say no inthat situation?
You say Yeah.
You either say Take that fold itup till it's really pointy and
stuff it or you say, all right.
Yeah, I'm gonna show you Yeah,I'm gonna make you so aware of
my capability that you have togive me the opportunity I'm
(20:02):
gonna excel more than you couldever believe.
Yeah, so I'm assuming here thatis what was going on in her and
the other pilots heads Becausethat's what they did.
Oh, would you like to hear aboutthese tests, by the way?
That's a frickin lootly.
Okay.
So I'm thinking.
And these are the same tests asthe men went through.
Same tests.
(20:22):
Exactly.
Same tests.
Because we need to know.
Those tests were, Physiologistsaying, what does it take to
survive and to work in anemergency scenario in space?
And he wanted to make sure hewasn't sending anyone up there
who would then become aliability.
It's a tricky environment,obviously.
(20:42):
So here's what the Independentsaid to describe the tests that
she and all the other astronautcandidates went through.
Cold water was shot into herears to induce vertigo.
Okay.
Then she had to swallow threefeet of rubber hose to have a
stomach exam.
They're pouring radioactivefluid down there.
(21:03):
So the science scientists canlook at her metabolism.
Of course.
She spent.
a record setting, nine hours inan isolation chamber, a dark,
silent tank of water.
And then for 45 minutes, shepiloted the machine the gimbal
rig.
And these are their words, agyroscopic vomit inducing space
(21:25):
flight simulator.
spinning her on three axes atonce.
Horrific.
And there's a photo there of herin the gimbal rig.
She's smiling.
She's smiling.
She's like, yes, give me this.
I am up for this.
So how did she do?
She was the first and only womanto pass every single physical
(21:48):
and every psychological test.
And she not only passed, shetested at the top 2 percent of
candidates in either gender.
So she isn't just scraping.
She's smashing it.
Ideal candidate.
Ideal in every way.
And I'm thinking if you're her,having put it all out there,
(22:10):
proved yourself.
Absolutely.
In uncertain terms, she's got tobe thinking, I'm in.
I'm ready.
Let's go.
Let's go to space.
However, this is another exampleof her being on time, but too
early because at that time, NASAdictated that astronaut trainees
(22:36):
had To be jet fighter pilots.
But they wouldn't let women dothat.
They would not let women do thatrole.
So de facto, you cannot be thisjob.
So your Jerry Cobb.
Your dream that you've worked,scrimped, saved, sacrificed to
attain, you've proved you cando, 100 percent you can do the
(22:56):
role, and it's held out of reachbecause of structural sexism.
Don't have a willy.
You don't have a willy, sorry,go home.
Maybe we'll ask you to be asecretary sometime.
So, not ideal.
She thought.
All right, then I'm not going tojust let that stand and she,
(23:17):
along with others around her,including the other astronaut
candidates, took it to Congress,they went forward and I'm going
to quote now, it's a bitconfusing, so bear with me, but
in 2023, a representative put abill to Congress to give the
congressional gold medal to TheMercury 13 women to recognize
(23:42):
their contributions toaeronautics and to equality So
that piece includes this quote,which describes, I think, quite
succinctly how the congressionalhearing like what it was about.
So.
Geraldine Jerry Cobb and JaneJaney Briggs Hart spoke to
(24:03):
Congress to advocate for thecontinuation of their program.
That, in turn, led to aninvestigation into
discrimination on the basis ofsex, which took place two years
before the Civil Rights Act waspassed.
I'll say more about that, butthat is still a foundational
document that Opens up theworkplace for all we're in 1962
(24:29):
that act.
Has not even been ratified yet,and she and the others are there
and here's what Jerry Cobb hadto say.
She at that hearing said, wewomen pilots who want to be part
of the research andparticipation and space
exploration are not trying tojoin a battle of the sexes.
(24:50):
As pilots, we fly and sharemutual respect with male pilots
in the primarily man's world ofaviation.
We very well know how to livetogether in our profession.
We see only a place in ournation's space future without
discrimination.
And she's like, boom, you know,mic drop.
(25:10):
I'm not interested in your.
Oh, women are asking for toomuch.
Oh, should we give them this?
She's like, you're not giving meanything, mate.
I can do that.
And you are going to let me.
And I think that's reallyimportant to know as well.
Cause in that quote, she says aspilots, you know, we have mutual
respect for male pilots.
Like being a secretary and beinga nurse is absolutely valid,
(25:34):
absolutely valid, but that's notwhat she wanted.
She wanted to be a pilot.
And it's, I really hope that Ihaven't come across as kind of
denigrating that.
That work, all of these thingsare important, but what isn't
okay is for somebody to besiloed into a particular career
path because, because, andwhether that be a male or a
(25:57):
female, you cannot exempt peoplefrom a whole field of work.
People who are really, reallygood at it but yes, absolutely.
if she was a secretary, if shewas a nurse, if she was a stay
at home mom, she would have beenthe best that whatever she was,
because that was her persona,she just put herself to it.
(26:19):
Yeah, she really put it outthere.
It's the certainty.
Again, the surety.
Not only that I can, but thatthis is going to happen.
Um, okay.
You know what?
That, that probably stems fromhaving a dad who had your back
or having parents who, even ifthey didn't say it out loud or
said this isn't for you, theystill let you try, they still
(26:39):
took you on their knee and madeyou part of that experience.
That's very true.
And that's actions speak louderthan words, isn't it?
even though the dad said thisisn't really for you, I'm going
to take you anyway.
that speaks volume, isn't it?
I think, yeah, it's easy toimagine that when he's saying
this isn't for you.
What he was trying to do maybewas to warn her, the world isn't
(27:00):
gonna let you do this, but herfaith in herself and her
optimism, let her say.
Well, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,yeah.
So for all of that eloquence andpositivity and just reason, just
logic, we have the tide of thetimes pushing back.
(27:24):
So this is, unfortunate to mebecause, John Glenn, astronaut
John Glenn is kind of a nationaltreasure, but he was a man of
his time.
And.
Okay.
Spoke at that congressionalhearing and unfortunately put
the boot in and said, Men go offand fight the wars and fly the
planes.
The fact that women are not inthis field is a fact of our
(27:46):
social order.
Mm.
It's very Churchill.
Churchill was very like that,wasn't he?
Blinkered.
Absolutely blinkered.
And then the vice president, atthe time was Johnson and he kind
of was putting in as well.
And there's a memo, there's aprintout you can see of it in
the library saying on themargins, he wrote, let's stop
(28:08):
this now, next to her words.
Like, absolutely not.
So for context and withoutcomment, I will tell you at this
point that between 1948 and1951.
So not long before thiscongressional hearing, NASA was
launching a series of monkeysinto space in test flights.
(28:32):
And, yeah, I do have a smallcomment, which is, how
entrenched is your misogyny ifyou think female astronauts are
against nature, but scooping upa monkey and shooting it in a
rocket is perfectly fine?
Like, guys.
Come on, we can do better.
(28:52):
We can do better.
My chest has gone so tight.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's infuriating.
And the poor monkeys.
I mean, it's just.
The poor monkeys.
In every direction.
It just.
It's not good enough.
So the congressional hearingrolled on and Cobb and the other
women did not get the resultthat they wanted, which is
(29:13):
devastating.
And for all of her positivity,Cobb, resigned from NASA.
Okay.
So that was like her, that waslike her protest.
I think, or just her sort ofthinking, this isn't happening
for me.
This isn't going to lead where Ithought, what more can I do,
perhaps?
(29:34):
I do, I don't know, is thetruth.
I don't know.
But that's the point where sheparts ways with NASA.
And It wasn't until 1972 thatthat Civil Rights Act amendment
that I was talking about in thecongressional hearing kicked in,
and that, Title VII, it says,prohibits employment
(29:55):
discrimination based on race,color, religion, sex, national
origin, disability, or age, andit rendered that insistence on
jet fighter pilot trainingprecluding women effectively
from, that could no longer bethe case.
So NASA, inducted its firstclass of women in 1972.
(30:16):
1972.
Yeah.
So very much in her lifetime.
Immediately on it.
She's still alive, but she'snow.
Not at the peak of her physicalfitness, she, she's now missed
that, that opportunity forherself, for that level of
rigor, that testing that she hadalready undergone, more than a
decade before.
(30:36):
So NASA is bringing these newwomen in and they've invented a
new job role to cover the factthat they aren't.
That pathway of jet fighterpilot, test pilot, astronaut,
they are the mission specialist,which I'm saying as a job role,
absolutely great.
(30:57):
I'd be delighted to have it.
And I'm thrilled that NASA didthat the minute it was possible
for them to, it's so parallel totoday, isn't it?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because they're removing nowwomen's biographies, aren't
they, off their websites andstuff like that.
this is such a poignant time tobe talking about these things
(31:20):
and talking about, well, I mean,yeah, I'll come to that.
I don't want to preempt myselftoo much, but yeah, it really,
when I was figuring my waythrough this.
Don't know if you get this whenyou're writing things, but
you're like, how do I explainwhy I just find this woman so
cool?
And then you start going, Oh,because it reflects.
(31:41):
And the work, the struggle, iseverything that's being unpicked
it takes the wind out of yoursails.
Yeah.
A little bit, yeah.
The pendulum will swing back andit'll swing back harder.
It will.
So, sorry, I'll, I'm goingwildly off on a troll off.
Shake it off, shake it off,shake, shake off the Trump.
Right, let's talk, let's talksome more about Jerry Cobb.
(32:04):
and the fact that these shortsighted measures, So America at
this time, it's roll it back alittle to the 60s when this
congressional hearing is goingon, it's the space race, we're
headed against the Russians.
We're going to, America's goingto be first to the moon.
America's going to blah, blah,blah.
Yeah.
(32:24):
Well.
So publicly as well, wasn't it?
So publicly.
So publicly.
Resting so much civic pride onit.
And mean times.
This whole holding back onletting these women achieve cost
America the space race inequality terms.
So, Jerry Cobb's talking to theNew York Times about the Soviet
(32:47):
launch of Valentina Teshkova,the cosmonaut, first woman in
space.
And Jerry Cobb's saying, it's ashame.
Since, I'll get this, a shamethat since we are eventually
going to put a woman into space,we didn't go ahead and do it
first.
Bam! Yes, Jerry! Yes! Bam! Andeven Tershikova is getting in on
(33:07):
it.
Yeah! And she said to her,Soviet government newspapers
about the American politicians,they shout at every turn about
their democracy, and at the sametime, they announced they will
not let a woman into space.
This is open inequality.
So she's just like, you can keepit.
You talk about how great youare.
(33:28):
Show me you're showing menothing.
I love, I love these women.
It costs America as well ascosting Cobb and that, that's
heartbreaking because she nevergot to fulfill her potential and
that we were just saying this,it's a key to her story.
It's a key to a lot of the womenthat we talk about on the
(33:49):
podcast and we want thesestories.
Like just, it's so satisfyingwhen the goal is reached or the
inequity is overturned butsometimes.
The win is part of a biggereffort and these women like
Jerry Cobb are contributing tothis aggregate change that takes
(34:12):
lifetimes, not one lifetime,several to heal the results.
And we benefit or we worktowards their ongoing goals even
now.
So with people who didn't get tobenefit themselves, I think
what.
And what is especiallygratifying is to see the
recognition coming back towardsthem.
(34:34):
So I have a quote here fromastronaut, Anna Fisher, who flew
in the space shuttle in 1984 andshe says of the Mercury 13.
They wanted it so badly, andthen we came along and caught
the wave at just the right timewhen society was changing.
(34:55):
I felt so grateful to them andsad that they weren't able to
achieve their dream, but theydid in a way by opening the door
for us.
Oh my god.
Anna is, um, she's sociallyaware.
Yes.
That is so, humbling.
Yeah, she knows that she is one.
(35:17):
Yeah.
And standing on the shoulders ofthese giants and that's during
Cobb's lifetime that this isbeing said.
So that is beautiful.
And, you know, for Cobb, Oh,this is, this is hard to hear,
but there's a quote here fromCobb, saying she didn't make it
to space, but she never gave uphoping she said.
(35:39):
At age 67 in 1999, I would givemy life to fly in space.
It's hard for me to talk aboutit, but I would.
I would then and I will now.
She never stopped wanting it.
How many just send her?
Like, it can't be that hard.
Let it happen.
And there were, one of thecommercial space, flights that
(36:00):
was owned by a private companywho took one of the other female
candidates who couldn't go andshe was part of their crew.
And I believe that at thatpoint, which was within the last
10 years, she was the oldestwoman to ever go into space.
So that would have been deeplymeaningful to her.
(36:21):
And unfortunately, Jerry Cobbnever got that chance, although
so the biographer Martha Ackman,who wrote a book about the
Mercury 13 said Cobb was neverbitter and delighted in the
accomplishments of the today'sfemale astronauts.
But there was about her a deepreservoir of disappointment.
(36:41):
If you look at those picturesfrom the start, those pictures
of pure glee and excitement anddreams that could have it's the
hope that kills you.
Yeah.
So I'm not going to leave us ona downer.
I will tell you that althoughyou can see it would be really
(37:01):
easy to become very bitter.
But, um, Cobb didn't, she hadthis reserve within her, this
It's wellspring of positivityand okay, this is what we're
going to do.
And she turned all that energytowards service.
her remaining decades of life,she was still a pilot.
(37:22):
She was flying humanitarianmissions into the Amazon to
deliver food, medicine andclothing to indigenous people.
And this is her second career.
This is her like, yeah, this isher like retired hobby.
I'm just going to go.
She was out there finding newroots across the Andes mountains
and the Amazon rainforest.
I'm not only going to fly, I'mgoing to fly solo across the
(37:44):
Andes.
And by the way, found thisroute.
It's a bit better than what youwere using.
Thanks.
Bye.
She's incredible.
And she ultimately was nominatedfor the Nobel peace prize.
And she was inducted into theAmerican National Aviation Hall
of Fame in 2012, which again waswithin her lifetime.
Okay.
And the reason I know about herat all is because she is the
(38:08):
basis for a character on anApple TV series called For All
Mankind.
Oh, wow.
And And the character they basedon her is called Molly Cobb.
And she's, she's just thislittle badass lady, who I think
it's really interesting showbecause it takes this time in
(38:31):
American history as a jumpingoff point and does speculative
science fiction, about how wouldthe world have been different if
these female pilots.
in America had been allowed totake the roles they were
qualified for on The FirstAsking.
Oh, damn right.
It's such a good series.
(38:51):
It aired for the first timeeight months after Jerry Cobb
died, so we're not, we're nottalking about like looking at
some deep historical.
This isn't hundreds of yearsago.
Yeah.
Right?
So this is what strikes me.
It's what we were just talkingabout.
This sort of relative closenessof these times.
(39:11):
And especially right now, whenwomen's contributions to
American institutions are beingpainted over, sometimes
literally, physically, it's soimportant to talk about women
like Jeri Cobb and to rememberhow recent their struggles
actually are.
(39:31):
And that's it.
That's what I have to say today.
That's the story of Jeri Cobb.
That's the story of Jeri Cobband the women who took the
baton.
And ran with it after shesacrificed so much.
Oh my god, Chorus.
There you go.
I feel quite, um emotional, youknow?
Yeah.
(39:52):
Because 2019, that's so re Also,Apple TV have so many hidden
gems like that, don't they?
Oh, I know.
They're good at making TV.
I like, I like to talk that oneup, that probably of all of
them, we devour it.
And I mean, I love I wish I hadthe source for this quote, but
somebody was talking aboutloving the first generation of
(40:16):
Star Trek because it was thefirst time they saw someone who
looked like them.
And this was a person of a nonwhite, background.
And they said, this is the firsttime I've seen someone who looks
like me depicted in the future.
Like doing a job, being like,just no questions asked.
They're just a part of society.
(40:36):
I love sci fi and stuff like ForAll Mankind is taking it where I
want to see it go.
It's going, how could thingshave been different?
How could things have beenbetter or worse or whatever?
But just It is not even up fornegotiation.
We are all included.
Yes.
Amazing.
Amazing.
Oh my gosh.
Well, thank you so much, Cara.
(40:56):
My pleasure.
How did that feel?
Yeah.
Like, I'm, I'm less nervous nowthat I'm thinking, Oh God.
Did you enjoy it?
I really did.
And I, I think it helps whenit's somebody who you just have
so much admiration for becauseyou're excited.
And I didn't know about her.
So I've definitely learnedsomething.
(41:17):
So so much.
Thank you for allowing me.
That was really neat.
And thank you everyone forlistening.
And I hope you enjoyed it too.
If you did, please follow us onInstagram, like, share,
subscribe.
These episodes, you know, that'sthe only way we can get these
stories.
All right, me and Cara aretelling each other, but we need
(41:37):
to share.
Yeah, we're enjoying ourselves,but we want to bring you all.
And, thank you so much forlistening and we'll catch you
next time.
See you later.
Thank you.
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