March 11, 2025 • 42 mins
She Changed History Live: Celebrating Revolutionary Women
In this special live episode recorded at the Open University's International Women's Day celebrations, hosts Vicki and Simon of the 'She Changed History' podcast present two inspiring stories of women who have shaped history. Vicki shares the extraordinary life of Savitribai Phule, an Indian social reformer who championed education for lower caste girls and fought against societal injustices in 19th century India. Simon recounts the groundbreaking achievements of Grace Hopper, a pioneering computer scientist whose work laid the foundations for modern programming languages and made computing more accessible. The episode features an engaging introduction by Jo Dyer, Director of Learner and Discovery Services at the Open University, and includes insightful discussions on gender barriers, education, and the enduring impact of these remarkable women.
00:00 Introduction and Special Episode Announcement
00:50 Opening Remarks by Jo Dyer
01:42 Introduction to She Changed History Podcast
02:33 Audience Participation and Famous Women in History
04:35 Savitri Bai Phule: Early Life and Marriage
07:39 Educational Reforms and Challenges
14:58 Social Reforms and Legacy
20:35 Empowerment Through Education
21:45 Introducing Grace Hopper
22:46 Early Life and Education
25:18 Pioneering Work in Computer Science
27:28 The First Compiler and Beyond
33:56 Legacy and Influence
39:27 Final Thoughts and Reflections
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hi everyone, this is Vicki from,she Changed History.
We've got a different episodefor you today.
So as part of InternationalWomen's Day, which was on the
8th of March, we were asked bythe Open University to present
at their International Women'sDay celebrations last week.
So what you're gonna hear isthat episode, which, uh, was
(00:28):
done live in front of anaudience, um, we are very
grateful to be Lon.
We had a lovely time.
You hear.
An introduction by Joe Dyer, adirector at the Open University,
and then you'll hear the episodethat we recorded.
I've got a story for youfollowed by Simon's story and
yeah, we had a great time.
Hopefully you enjoy it too.
(00:49):
Welcome.
Thank you everybody for comingtoday.
My name is Jo Dyer.
I'm the Director of Learner andDiscovery Services at The Open
University and I'm absolutelydelighted to be introducing this
podcast as part of our amazingInternational Women's Week of
events.
Um, got some great people in theroom listening and people
online, so welcome to you too.
This is just an awesome podcast.
(01:11):
I was a real history geek when Iwas growing up, particularly
loved the Tudor period.
Not the men, not Henry VIII.
I was interested in his wives,the women and what they were
doing.
Um, so nothing could be morefitting for me than to introduce
this podcast of She ChangedHistory.
Hell yes she did.
And I'm delighted to introducemy colleagues here who are going
(01:33):
to share with you some of thethings, some of the amazing
women in the past and what theyhave done.
So settle in.
and listen to some greatstories.
Thank you.
Hi, Vicky.
Hi, Simon.
Hi, everyone.
Yeah, all right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of weird and wonderfulbeing here rather than I'm
(01:55):
normally in my spare roomsurrounded by dirty laundry,
well clean laundry.
Yeah, yeah, so it's quite adifferent setup for us.
We're very lucky, thank you somuch for being here and watching
us do this and yeah, it's gonnabe quite a fun hour I think.
Don't promise too much.
So, The podcast, She ChangedHistory, we've been doing it
since November and it is exactlywhat it says on the tin, isn't
(02:19):
it?
We talk about people who havechanged history, specifically
women, but women who werewritten out of history either
because men took their credit oreither because, you know, people
don't care.
So we thought it's about time toshed light on that.
Yeah, so if we think of audienceparticipation already, if you
think of sort of famous womenwho've changed history, does
(02:41):
anyone spring to mind?
Yeah.
for you, however far back youwant to go.
Anything.
Ada Lovelace.
Yep.
She's on the list.
Yeah.
Marie Curie, Rosa Parks.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We also put Betty Boothroyd downbecause that's where we are
today.
Yeah.
(03:04):
Yes, absolutely.
And Jenny Liu.
So there are certainly these,this sort of headline figures
that get a lot of the attention,but also behind that there are
Should have been Nobel Prizewinners and just as we're
finding hundreds and thousandsof various women who've had no
recognition throughout history.
either at the time or since andthey're the sort of people that
(03:25):
we're really trying to tohighlight and we try and
highlight a lot of women who goagainst that sort of unconscious
bias that tends to be in place.
So if we think of a pirate youwould tend to think of beardy,
peg legged, rum drinking oldman, not a Chinese pirate queen.
Yeah.
Or if you think of someone whosaved thousands of Jewish
(03:48):
children in World War II, youwould probably think of
Schindler.
Schindler, yeah, rather thanIrina Sendler who did one of our
early episodes, I think that wasthe first one we recorded,
wasn't it?
And so she's an incrediblePolish woman whose story only
came to light because of twoAmerican schoolgirls doing a
school project who thenuncovered her decades long
(04:11):
project to save thousands ofPolish children during World War
II and reunite them with theirfamilies after the war.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
So, Bearing all that in mind,this is exactly what the podcast
do.
Shall we give you some womentoday to learn to?
Brilliant.
We've got one story each.
There'll be 10 15 minutes and,um, we think they're pretty
(04:33):
exciting.
So we think hopefully you willtoo.
So my story today is, Savitri byFule and I've got a little intro
for you.
So, imagine a nine year oldbride in a land bound by
colonization confines.
Savitri by Fule, born intooppression, ignited a
revolution.
(04:53):
From illiterate child up to Tofearless educator, she shattered
caste and gender barriers,defying a century of British
rule.
This is her story, one ofcourage, defiance, and the birth
of modern India.
So we're going to India, guys.
Very exciting.
It's a strong intro.
No pressure.
Sources today, I found anarticle in India today, in the
(05:16):
Economic Times, in the IndiaExpress.
Britannica, which we use all thetime, love that website, and a
BBC article as well.
So, Savidrupoy Phule was born in1831, so January the 3rd, 1831,
in Naigon, which is a smallvillage in the Bombay province
of India.
(05:38):
Um, It's a really poor, veryhighly marginalized part of
India, uh, was back then.
And as was common at the time,she was married at just the age
of nine, just an absolute baby.
She was married off to JyotiThao Phule, and she moved to
Pune, which is now called Punein India.
And she was illiterate at thetime of marriage, so it was very
(06:01):
rare for children to get anysort of education, especially
girls at that time.
Uh, just to give you an idea ofIndia at that time, do you know
much about India at that time?
Not a great deal.
Okay, so we were there.
Britain was there.
We were ruling there.
Yeah, it would be anotherhundred years before we got
independence.
Uh, India got independence.
Because of that, the BritishEast India Company kind of
(06:21):
dominated that region.
You had local rulers there.
So some India rulers did remainin place and they had a little
bit of autonomy.
But that, it was a real powertussle between that and the
Brits.
There was a car system.
So I'd say think of that likeour social hierarchy, but much
stricter with no chance ofmoving through that hierarchy.
(06:43):
That's still a big thing today,isn't it?
In India?
Yeah, and sort of darker skincolours.
Oh, is it?
Tend to get more discriminatedagainst, yeah.
God.
there was high taxes and landownership.
So, um, Zimmar, Zamindarisystem, which was implemented by
the British, and it basicallytook land off traditional
(07:04):
landowners, right?
So, that is what Savitra buys upagainst right and she's nine and
she's been carted off throughmarriage.
She marries, um, Joe Tito Whowas also a child at the time.
I think he was slightly olderYeah, but he was one step up he
had gone through primary schoolso he had a little bit of
(07:24):
knowledge and he was soimpressed With, uh, Savitribai's
enthusiasm, thirst forknowledge, um, that he actually
taught her to read and write asa kid.
How cute is that?
So you've got these two littlekids, one teaching the other.
Um, he encouraged her throughoutand subsequently Savitribai went
(07:44):
through training to become ateacher.
She did two courses and became aqualified teacher in 1847.
Some of the schools that shetaught to be a teacher at are
still there today.
And, um, Because of this, whichis probably not a surprise, um,
Jyoti Thao's family ostracizedthem.
(08:05):
So they were kicked out of theirhome for, um, Savitri by
learning.
Sort of the disgrace of herhaving the gall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How easy was it for her to trainas a teacher?
It's really, we'll go on to alittle bit of her challenges.
Um, but it is very, I imagine itwas really difficult and I
(08:27):
imagine because there wasn't anyresources there.
And I can imagine just in myhead it's just two kids sat like
by candlelight teaching eachother.
You know what I mean, that'swhere it started, that real
innocent kind of vibe.
Um, yeah, they did get kickedout and it was basically because
of their attempts to challengethat status quo because they
just wanted to be a little bitdifferent and he could see how
(08:48):
much she loved learning.
Um, when they did get kickedout.
There is another lady who thisstory isn't about, but I really
want to give her a name check.
Her name's Fatima Sheik.
And, um, if Savitri Bai isn'tknown about, Fatima is really,
really not known about.
Like, she's like another layerdown.
Um, because she's so importantbecause she supported them.
(09:09):
So the reason that Savitri Baihas achieved so much is because
she had her friend there helpingher wherever she could.
So women supporting women,right?
Um, so she actually went tolive, they went to live with
Fatima for a little bit.
Then in 1848, um, the couple, soJyoti Thao and Savitri Bhai
(09:30):
opened a school for lower castegirls in Bywada, Pune.
And their first year they hadsix students.
girls attend school, so theyopened a school for six little
girls.
Even smaller than ForresterDeane schools.
Um, but how I can just see theselittle girls sat cross legged on
the floor, you know, amazing.
(09:51):
So that's like, would have beenthe only opportunity that those
girls had.
What a lifeline.
Only school.
Such a lifeline.
The next year, so 1849, you'llfind throughout this story, the
years go so quick.
Um, they opened a school foradults next and they accepted
children, sorry, students fromall castes.
So it doesn't matter.
So they were dismantling thatsystem that I spoke about
(10:12):
earlier.
Her work was, shocker, met withwidespread hostility.
Especially from orthodox barmenwho did not want to disrupt any
of the status quo.
They were like, we've alwaysdone it this way, this is the
way.
Um, Savitri Dukbhai was oftenverbally abused.
(10:33):
She, on the way to work, shewould have stones, mud and dung
thrown at her on her way intowork.
It just comes up so much,doesn't it?
You can't just leave someone dotheir thing.
We've got to try and take them,take them down.
Yeah.
Almost all of our stories.
And imagine coming into worktoday and being covered with
dung, right?
(10:54):
It got so bad that she had tothen go to work.
bring a spare sari with her.
So she would come get to workand then have to change her
clothes and then start her day.
You just can't imagine it, canyou?
It's absolutely disgusting.
Um, by 1851, they had actuallylaunched three schools, uh, with
150 female students involved.
(11:17):
It's not 100 percent clear howthey're resourcing this.
Um, I tried, but I couldn'treally find out, but they What
they were really clever at as acouple is that they wanted these
girls to go to school and theywanted them to succeed.
So to minimize dropout rates,um, at the schools, they
actually offered stipends to thestudents.
So they would pay for thestudents to be there and make
(11:38):
sure that they're not losing anyearnings or anything like that.
Yeah.
Where did that money come from?
I've written, my next sentencesays, it's not clear where the
money came from.
It says, um, it's not clear ifshe was using her own salary as
a teacher or if she galvanizedother people or if it was like a
community setting.
(11:58):
It's really unclear.
This sounds like a passionproject.
This is a lifestyle for her,isn't it?
Not just a career choice.
Um, And you're exactly right.
It's who she was as a person.
I'm going to share with you someother things that she did.
And you can see that if we takeanything, live by your values.
So over the next six years, um,there was a period where, um,
(12:25):
GT, GT towel fell ill and savvytrue by was visiting her home
family.
So, and there's a letter fromGT.
Gigi t to um, saying, I'm reallyworried about the school.
What are we gonna do about thegirls?
I can't get there.
And she was like, don't worry,fat has got this.
So, you know, that lady I spokeabout earlier, I just wanted to
(12:46):
make that there, but she was theunderlying current that kept
these schools going, which Ithought that was amazing.
Um, on top of building thiscommunity, they wanted to help,
um, these C cars.
So the next thing they did was,since lower castes were
forbidden from using a commonvillage well, So they weren't
(13:08):
allowed to use the well in themiddle of the village.
They were like, well, sod this,we'll go and open our own well.
And in their back garden, theybuilt a well.
So that meant that anyone, nomatter what caste you were from,
could use the water from thatwell, because they wanted people
to feel included in society.
These revolutionary acts weren'twithout backlash.
(13:28):
And there was a lot of press.
They were kind of getting areputation for being this kind
of couple.
Revolutionary act being, um,Providing a well between
suicide.
Yes.
So true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but this courage and thisdetermination became a
cornerstone of savvy true PA's,uh, legacy.
Um, despite all the sphereopposition, they opened 18
(13:49):
schools for girls in Pona, uh,in the region.
And Savvy Trpa was declared thebest teacher in the Bombay
presidency, which was by anEnglish.
in 1852.
So she was recognized and sheset the foundations for women's
education in India.
So some recognition from theestablishment.
Masses.
(14:10):
She's really, really wellthought of in, uh, in India.
And.
Her work wasn't limited to theclassroom, so she wrote and
published poetry.
So that little girl who was likelearning when she was really
young, just genuinely lovedlearning.
And all her poetry coveredthings from equality, self
respect, inspiring generationsof women to rise above
(14:32):
discrimination.
Her writings weren't justexpressive, um, for creativity,
they were also revolutionarytools.
Like that word again, galvaniseother people.
One of her, um, poems I'vewritten down here was called Go
Get Education.
Which I thought was so lovely.
Um, you could totally see herusing that in a lesson, couldn't
(14:53):
you?
Absolutely.
And it just shows that she hadthese consistent values all the
way throughout her life.
So, um, So, she's helpingschoolgirls, she's helping low
class people get fresh water.
She's also helping widows.
She affected all parts ofsocieties.
For example, when a disparatewidow's health began to fail,
Savitri Paiyoh did somethingremarkable.
(15:14):
She didn't just offercompassion, she stepped in and
raised that woman's child as herown, along with her husband.
That boy grew up.
His name was Yashwan and hebecame a beacon of hope for the
region because he trained to bea doctor.
Um, and he kind of symbolizedeverything she had been working
(15:35):
towards, I guess, is because,you know, he was then going to
have another generation in termsof health.
Um, this story of her adoptingYashwan symbolizes her fight
against the stigma surroundingwidows and their children.
That's because At the time,widowhood, if you lost your
husband, meant social exclusionand it meant humiliation.
(15:59):
Like it was their fault.
And it, yeah, and that crops upin, again, we seem to have had a
lot of widows in our story.
We do like a widow.
Yeah, we do like a widow.
A Victorian widow.
Yeah, we like it when the mengo.
That's our wheelhouse.
Yeah.
But often they wouldn't beallowed to carry on living where
they are, couldn't run abusiness, all sorts that they
wouldn't be able to do justbecause they're a widow.
Yeah, Laurie's very good atthat.
(16:20):
Recognizing you when you'reinside a marriage when you're
outside of marriage.
It's like you don't exist andWell back to back Victorian ish
times And at the same here, solegislation was passed in 1856
to actually allow the remarriageSo if you lost your child And
after 1856, she could remarry.
(16:41):
Hallelujah.
So, um, she even fought againstthe practice of child marriage.
Like I said, she was married offat nine.
So, you know, she clearly wasn'thappy about that, which is fair.
Um, she built a large shelterfor widows.
um, and child brides cast asidefor their families and provided
education for them.
So not only was she like, comein, she was like, come in, I'll
(17:04):
educate you.
I'll make your life so muchbetter than you could ever be.
Um, she also campaigned againstsati, which is the practice of a
widow sacrificing themselves ontheir deceased husband's pyre,
which is where they burn thecorpse.
It's quite a dark practice.
Sorry, I thought you said thenthat the widow would jump on her
husband's pyre.
(17:26):
Um, it was a practice that wasabolished in 1829, but it was
still prevalent in Sabati'stime.
But, all she was doing didtrickle through all parts of
society.
So she's, like I said, children,facilities, older generations.
(17:48):
And also, because this didtrickle through society, other
people followed suit.
So the MP, um, Darbahai, NayaRoshi opened a school for girls
at the same time and again evenhe earned a huge wrath of, a
huge wrath from orthodox Indianmen as well.
(18:11):
Not only that, Savitri Bhai usedher marriage as a blueprint and
started the practice of marry,marrying without a dowry or
without a priest, so marryingfor love, heaven forbid.
Um, and then she, This marriagethat she, um, publicised was
called Satya Sodhak, which isbasically taking an oath in
(18:35):
favour of education andequality.
So it was like, yes, we canmarry, but I want to value my
education.
Jyoti Thao died, her husbanddied in 1890, and then, so that
made her her widow herself.
But even in this moment, SavitriBhai defied expectations and
social conventions, and she wasthe one who lit the fire of
(18:56):
cremation, which is normally arole reserved for men.
And didn't jump on it.
No, she didn't.
Um, On top of that, she's justmade on top of that.
She then, um, a bubonic plagueepidemic hit in 1897.
She just carried on being anurse in that time.
(19:17):
She was like, well, now I'mgoing to look after them as
well.
Um, she had a shelter that sheworked with her son, Yashwan,
because he's a doctor now.
And, um, she set up and caredfor patients.
Tragically, this is the end ofthe life.
She contracted the disease whileshe was helping those patients,
um, while serving others anddied.
(19:37):
But her life is a testament ofselfless service, just helping
other people, right?
Um, her legacy, like we said,she was recognized in her
lifetime, which is quite rarefor some of our women that we
talk about.
Um, But also that carried onafter she, she died as well.
So in 1983, Poon CityCorporation erected a monument
(19:58):
in her honor.
She's got a stamp.
Oh, we love a stamp.
She was given a stamp in herhonor in 1998.
Um, the University of Poonactually changed its name to the
Savitribai Phule Poon Universityin 2015.
And she's got a Google Doodle.
(20:18):
Um, and her, this is myfavourite thing, her birthday is
now known as Girl Child Day inIndia.
So it's a whole day dedicated tolittle girls in India.
That's pretty cool, isn't it?
And that is the story of SaviChiray Phule.
Love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's really empowering the,uh, seems a bit of an obvious
(20:39):
thing to say when we're sat inthe OU, but this focus on
education and the power thatthat then gives these people to
bring themselves up as well.
and probably why it was sointimidating and people wanted
to bring them down and notadjust that status quo.
And it's interconnectedness,isn't it?
It's all the, all the differentparts of people's lives that she
affected and gave to otherpeople, gave a leg up.
(21:01):
It's pretty cool.
Thank you, Vicky.
We got any questions orcomments?
Sorry about that.
Any questions, any comments?
Was there a practice for thehusbands to jump on the pyre if
(21:36):
their wives died?
I'm not even going to build anymystery.
I'm just going to talk aboutGrace Hopper today, who's
someone I've been dying to dofor quite some time.
She was a quite remarkablewoman, very small woman, but
remarkable, um, who made thesegroundbreaking, groundbreaking
(21:59):
contributions to computerscience back in the days when
computers were still largemechanical.
Machines with mechanical valves.
I think people know GraceHopper.
Oh, we've got Grace Hopper fans.
Yeah in the house If I say Graceyou say Yeah, she really sort of
(22:20):
laid many of the foundations formodern programming as we know it
now and had a great influenceon, um, a couple of particular
programming languages, some ofwhich are powered banks up until
quite recently.
Um, and again, a real focus oneducation as well.
We'll come on to that.
(22:40):
It's like we planned it.
It's nice.
We're very good.
It's all lined up pretty well.
Yeah.
So Grace was born Grace BrewsterMurray on December 9th in 1906
in New York City.
And from a young age she wasalways curious about Everything,
wanted to know how everythingworked, wanted to know how
everything worked so much thatshe was keen to take it apart.
(23:01):
So her mum walked in one day andfound, I don't know why one
house had seven alarm clocks,but all seven of them were
dismantled on the kitchen tablebecause Grace wanted to find
out.
And it's sort of difficult to beannoyed about that.
You want to encourage your childto be inquisitive.
But you also need to get up forwork.
You need to get up for work,yeah.
So she was, um.
(23:21):
She was allowed to have onealarm clock that she could play
around with and dismantle.
Um, her father really encouragedher to pursue a good, a good
education and envisage a careerand really push through with
that.
He was in quite ill health, sowas worried he wouldn't always
be able to provide for thefamily.
Um, and then in 1928, so age 22,um, she graduated Phi Beta
(23:44):
Kappa.
Okay.
Yeah.
Woo.
Yeah.
Uh, from Vassar College, uh,with degrees in mathematics and
physics, and, and, and a 1930and a PhD in maths in 1934 from
Yale.
Which is a really key time,isn't it, for STEM, that kind of
era?
Yeah.
And it was actually quite a, I'mnot saying it was easy for her,
(24:06):
but that particular time wasquite a good time for women in
mathematics and physics andcoming on to, um, you know, Um,
like the birth of computing,particularly code breaking.
Um, a lot of the developmentaround that, the companies and
the researchers were justlooking for people who were good
at solving puzzles and it didn'tmatter what background you came
(24:26):
from or what gender you were.
If you had the right mind, youcould get into that field.
It should just be, yeah, itshouldn't be this strange
concept.
So while pursuing her PhD atYale, she insisted that she
still kept teaching at VassarCollege.
She wanted to keep educatingothers, even though she had her
(24:47):
own thing to pursue.
And had an admiration for theNavy, as some of her family had
been in the Navy in priorgenerations.
And she quit at one point, shealso quite liked the colour
blue, so was keen to join theNavy.
But was Not allowed to join theNaval Reserves initially because
(25:07):
she was too little.
Okay.
She was a very slight woman andshe was 15 pounds underweight to
be in the Naval Reserves.
How tall was she, do we know?
Uh, I'm going to say three foottwo, but that's probably not
accurate.
Um, She fought back against thisand then eventually in World War
II was allowed to join the USNaval Reserves, where because of
her background in maths andphysics, she was assigned to the
(25:30):
Bureau of Ordnance ComputationProject at Harvard University.
So, Harvard had an earlycomputer that they imaginatively
called the Mark I.
It was their first, and it wasan enormous electromechanical
calculator that they used forcalculations.
calculating ordnancetrajectories and other things.
(25:51):
And we call it a computer, butit's very, very different.
I mean, probably the picturemost of us have seen is, um,
Bletchley Park, things in there,but these are, still has
transistors, but thosetransistors are large vacuum
tubes and the computer isprogrammed mechanically.
(26:12):
And so her combination ofphysics and her engineering
expertise combined with themathematics to.
Come up with the algorithms.
just made her absolutely perfectfor this job.
And she wrote the first evercomputer manual, which was a
manual on, a manual of operationfor the automatic sequence
controlled calculator.
Um, yeah.
(26:36):
Uh, which detailed how tooperate, um, this machine.
And incidentally, uh, althoughshe didn't come up with the
term, the term for a bug incomputing and computer code,
Came from this machine.
Uh, it wasn't working asexpected, and they found a moth
trapped in a relay, and henceComputerberg.
(26:57):
Computer moth.
She was offered a fullprofessorship at Vassar College
after the war, but turned thatdown to continue her work with
computers.
It's like she had a lightbulbmoment seeing that there's
something in here that maybecomputers could be the next big
thing.
Um, and this very sort ofnascent field of computer
(27:21):
science.
And she wanted to pursue thismore and educate more people in
its potential.
So she starts workingprogramming, um, worked on the
first commercial electroniccomputer, which was the Univac
one, uh, around 1949.
And then in 1952, she wrote thefirst compiler, uh, which is
(27:46):
software that converts code thathumans can maybe understand into
the code that the computerunderstands.
It's amazing.
In order to run.
And this was the first, um,having tried to write code on a
self serve to do like it.
No, it's so complex, isn't it?
Yeah, it's really specialized.
And I mean, machine code sort ofthe most basic you are telling
(28:10):
each of those sort of memorylocations and transistors in the
chip what to do.
So it's, it's amazing.
enormously complicated and youdo really need a doctorate in
mathematics or Well that's whatI was thinking, it's so high
skilled, isn't it?
It is like you have, especiallyin that time, you would have to
be at the top of your game.
Absolutely.
(28:30):
Top.
Yeah, so she made a compiler,which made it slightly easier
for some other people.
They could write in a slightlyhigher level language, which
made slightly more sense.
And then the compiler would dealwith figuring out how to make
the computer actually do whatyou want it to.
So she wrote the thing, wrotethe compiler.
Yeah, but her big idea, the bigsort of revolution that she
(28:51):
kicked off was the idea of beingable to program in a language
that was In English and waswords rather than before then it
was sort of almost purelyalgebraic notation.
You needed a degree inmathematics to understand all of
these operations that you wereputting in to understand what
the code if a lay person were tolook at it, it would make no
(29:14):
sense.
And she felt that this was areal barrier to a wider adoption
of computers and what they couldoffer to all of industry.
Is this related to what we spokeabout with a little play?
You know, she wrote thealgorithm.
So she did write it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's sort of This is like thenext level.
(29:34):
Or is it different?
I guess so.
Ada was slightly different inthat she was not typing a
language, but she was stillhaving to figure out the
algorithm.
Yeah.
So this is sort of how youtranslate that algorithm into
something the computerunderstands.
We did an episode on AdaLovelace.
(29:55):
Not long ago, did we?
Not that long, no.
And you had a fabulous time justgeeking out about everything to
do.
I think it took us about threehours to record.
It was such a long recording.
And this other thing that shedid, yeah.
Um, oh, we even found thediagram, didn't we, of her
actual algorithm.
Oh, we did, that was reallyfunny.
Yeah, absolutely indecipherable.
Um, so Grace had this idea thatrather than just purely using
(30:19):
what was essentially a veryelaborate calculator at the time
used for very elaboratecalculations, it could have more
use in business, for example,but the people in business who
would want to.
Use this to analyze their datato analyze their sales or their
stockholding or things neededsomething far more accessible.
These people had specializationsin other areas, not in the
(30:41):
mathematics that was needed toprogram.
So she developed the firstEnglish language data processing
compiler, which was calledFlowmatic on.
This was sort of her big, big.
Achievement, I would say, and itmade it just so much more
accessible to so many, uh,different people and meant that
computers could start to bemarketed more to the private
(31:02):
sector and have greater adoptionin business.
We love at the OU a Power BI,don't we?
We absolutely love a Power BI,and I imagine this is, like,
what she was thinking.
She's often touted as the motheror the grandmother or all the
creator of cobalt, which was thesort of follow on from flow.
(31:24):
Matic.
She didn't directly develop itherself, but she got together
the team of six people whoworked on it.
And she was a real advocate andoutside advisor to the
Department of Defense who fundedits development at the time, as
it did on many projects thatthen came into public use cobalt
common business orientedlanguage.
(31:46):
Was then used on mainframes,very large computers, um, in
businesses around the world andthere's sort of still in use in
like quite a lot of bankingsoftware, uh, it's still there.
That's partly because it's sodifficult to figure out how it
works and then convert it tosomething newer and most of the
people who used to understandCOBOL are now dead.
(32:07):
So, yeah, yeah, um, I think it'sprobably good money if you want
to like learn how to be a COBOLdeveloper.
to keep those up to date.
So second career.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, so she, she had a biginfluence on that and her
phlegmatic language sort of gavethe groundwork for COBOL and
(32:31):
then people expanded upon it.
Uh, there was a lady, JeanSamet, who was actually part of
the, the six who directlydeveloped COBOL.
Yeah.
And she's very keen to point outthat Grace Hopper wasn't on the
team.
Actually, she's very important,but a little bit of friction
there, but still a lot of creditgoes to her just for this
(32:53):
concept of the English languageand more usable.
So Grace Diplomatic.
Yeah.
And that allowed Cobalt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Got it.
On it went.
Um, she remained a NavyReservist, uh, throughout her
career in the private sector andwas recalled to duty a number of
times, usually for computingbased projects.
(33:15):
Um, so she was responsible forstandardizing the Navy's, uh,
computer languages.
Um, What?
So they kept bringing her backin?
They kept bringing her back in.
So she tried to leave?
Tried to leave a number oftimes, but they kept bringing
her back to active duty.
It's like, we've got a problemonly Grace can solve here.
Yeah, presumably.
That's amazing.
I think Gene Samet was furiousabout it, but, um, and various,
(33:41):
um, various awards, NationalMedal of Technology in 1991, uh,
Distinguished Fellow of theBritish Computer Society in
1973, and posthumously awardedthe Presidential Medal of
Freedom in 2016.
Um, The thing I like most aboutGrace though is it was a great
(34:03):
achievement, uh, to sort of laythe foundation for this, but she
was always most interested ineducation and accessibility, um,
of making, um, Computersaccessible to a wide community,
making them more usable to morepeople of educating people in
how to use them, and she says,although she's sort of known for
(34:25):
her achievement in writingflowmatic, she says.
When asked about her greatestaccomplishment, Hopper once
said, it's all the young peopleI've trained over the years.
That's more important thanwriting the first compiler.
And she was always.
They're there to try and makeconcepts.
(34:47):
accessible.
It felt like a bit of agatekeeper situation having
computing open only to thosewith very advanced sort of
scientific degrees.
She wanted these concepts to beaccessible to more people
because that the knowledge ispower and that's what allows
people to then not be an expertin computing but actually create
something that solves a broaderproblem.
(35:08):
It's also thinking 10 stepsahead.
Yeah, it's not like we've got awater for when we need this
thing to do this.
It's, you know, how can itaffect everyone in a day to day
situation?
Because if you, it sounds likeif you've used a bank, if you've
used an Excel spreadsheet, ifshe has in fact influenced your
life.
(35:28):
Oh, we've all used something ora company that has COBOL as its
infrastructure at some point inour life.
Yeah, apparently there's, Ithink, 200 billion lines of
COBOL still in active use today.
Yeah.
Um, she was quite famous for,uh, a particular demonstration
(35:50):
to try and make, um, Quite anabstract concept, more
understandable.
Uh, in the, when transistors andelectronics and the processors
went down to sort of nanosecondtype response times, they could
do a calculation in ananosecond.
She was like, I've got no ideawhat a nanosecond is.
That means nothing to me.
Can you send me a nanosecond?
So she got the Department ofDefense, whichever department
(36:12):
she was liaising with, to sendher a piece of wire, which was
11.
8 inches long.
Think about that.
We'll measure it later, which isthe length of wire that
electricity travels in ananosecond.
Wow.
So it's just that if you take itout to a microsecond, it's
something like 900 yards orsomething.
But just as an actualdemonstration, yeah, a real
(36:34):
visual on just how much it'scoming along.
And she, Seemed to really seethe importance of computers in
the future, where it was allgoing.
There was an interview that shedid on 60 Minutes in the States.
Yeah.
And the interviewer was reallysort of trying to push the point
that he thought we'd reached thepinnacle of computing.
Now that we've got'em down tothe size of a room, um, and
(36:55):
we've, to the size of a room,this is, it got COBOL that can,
that can do 10 calculations persecond.
He was like, we've reached thepinnacle.
And she's like, no, no, we've,we've just about.
built the Model T.
We've still got all of, all ofthis to come.
And even pre internet days, shewas lobbying the Department of
(37:17):
Defense, while some placeswanted more computers that were
bigger, she was advocating fornetworks of smaller computers,
more usable, more accessible.
Just sounds like she knew, shejust knew what society needed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, a couple of other quotesfrom a ship in port is safe, but
(37:38):
that's what not ships are builtfor.
Sail out to sea and do newthings.
Oh, strong.
I'm not good at sailing, but Ilike it.
No one's noticed.
It's fine.
Um, probably my favorite one isthat if it's a good idea, go
ahead and do it.
It's much easier to apologizethan it is to get permission.
(38:00):
I'm sure there are many thingsthat doesn't apply to.
Um, yes, you're not a five atthe OU.
And actually tying in with yourstory, the humans are allergic
to change.
Yeah, they love to say we'vealways done it this way.
And she tries to fight that.
Yeah, it's a lesson for life,isn't it?
And it's a lesson.
(38:23):
That it's all that comfort zonestuff, isn't it?
It's like just because it makesyou uncomfortable doesn't mean
it's wrong.
And I think that's somethingthat we can maybe all take away
is if it feels uncomfortable.
It's a good chance that you'redoing something right and that
you're moving forward in someway.
Quite possibly.
(38:43):
Yeah.
And this, uh, just disdain forcarrying on because that's the
way it is, because often the waythat we do things has just been
a totally arbitrary choice bysomeone who wasn't qualified to
make it.
And then people have forgottento question it, but she was
always questioning.
She came up against so muchresistance for putting in, you
know, English words intoprogramming languages that
people can understand.
(39:04):
It's like, why would we everneed to do that?
Who needs that?
But even up to not being allowedin the Navy because she was too
little, um, to the programminglanguages to disagreeing
seemingly with every higher upshe came across.
Um, but yeah, she just poweredon, which is incredible.
And that's Grace Hopper.
That's Grace Hopper.
(39:24):
Amazing.
Any thoughts on Grace Hopper?
I mean Looks like we've got twoGrace Hopper experts in the
audience, which worries meslightly.
Well, thank you.
Well, thanks everyone.
Thank you.
And thank you guys for beinghere.
(39:51):
Yeah, we're She Changed History.
Um, we are a podcast that is inthe big wide world.
It's not an OU thing.
So we're on.
Spotify, Amazon, wherever.
This is our QR code.
You can see all our, we've got20 women today.
Yesterday.
I think we've got 20 episodes,which is brilliant.
Um, and we'll keep doing morebecause it just turns out we've
(40:14):
got a huge list.
Haven't we?
The problem is every time Iresearch one, it adds four more
to the list.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't think we'll ever endbecause we've got all these
women to get through.
Um, but yeah, if you could like,rate, subscribe on that, on any
socials and share us, we'dreally appreciate it because,
um, and we're so lucky to havethis audience here, which is
(40:34):
amazing.
But if we could keep growing andspread the word to these amazing
women, that'd be fantastic.
And thank you.
so much.
I am feeling Grace Hopperbecause you might be able to
tell I'm also little andprobably wouldn't reach height
requirements for a lot ofthings.
Um, but that was brilliant, um,really great.
(40:55):
Um, I didn't know either ofthose stories.
So, um, really great.
I've got a couple of takeawaysthat I think really resonate
with what we've been talkingabout in International Women's
Week.
Um, so thank you for bringingthose to life for us with those
stories.
Um, first of all, womensupporting other women.
Yes, lift them up, shout outabout them and celebrate their
achievements.
sharing our knowledge, you know,I mean, you use that, that
(41:19):
famous phrase, knowledge ispower.
Um, let's not make knowledge bepower.
Let's share it more widely.
Just keeping, keeping on, youknow, I've done loads already,
but you need water.
I know I'm going to sort thatout for you.
Just love that.
Um, don't limit your, yourambitions.
You know, there's still more todo.
Um, get comfortable beinguncomfortable.
I liked that as well, especiallyaround change.
(41:40):
Um, I think they're takeawaysthat we can take away.
Thank you.
That's been brilliant.
Um, I do follow, um, this onFacebook, highly recommend it.
Um, so.
So, um, just crack on and do itbecause there is so much to
learn.
And thank you for lifting thesewomen out of history and bring
them to life for us.
That's been brilliant.
Thank you.
Hi everyone, this is Vicki from,she Changed History.
We've got a different episodefor you today.
So as part of InternationalWomen's Day, which was on the
8th of March, we were asked bythe Open University to present
at their International Women'sDay celebrations last week.
So what you're gonna hear isthat episode, which, uh, was
(00:28):
done live in front of anaudience, um, we are very
grateful to be Lon.
We had a lovely time.
You hear.
An introduction by Joe Dyer, adirector at the Open University,
and then you'll hear the episodethat we recorded.
I've got a story for youfollowed by Simon's story and
yeah, we had a great time.
Hopefully you enjoy it too.
(00:49):
Welcome.
Thank you everybody for comingtoday.
My name is Jo Dyer.
I'm the Director of Learner andDiscovery Services at The Open
University and I'm absolutelydelighted to be introducing this
podcast as part of our amazingInternational Women's Week of
events.
Um, got some great people in theroom listening and people
online, so welcome to you too.
This is just an awesome podcast.
(01:11):
I was a real history geek when Iwas growing up, particularly
loved the Tudor period.
Not the men, not Henry VIII.
I was interested in his wives,the women and what they were
doing.
Um, so nothing could be morefitting for me than to introduce
this podcast of She ChangedHistory.
Hell yes she did.
And I'm delighted to introducemy colleagues here who are going
(01:33):
to share with you some of thethings, some of the amazing
women in the past and what theyhave done.
So settle in.
and listen to some greatstories.
Thank you.
Hi, Vicky.
Hi, Simon.
Hi, everyone.
Yeah, all right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of weird and wonderfulbeing here rather than I'm
(01:55):
normally in my spare roomsurrounded by dirty laundry,
well clean laundry.
Yeah, yeah, so it's quite adifferent setup for us.
We're very lucky, thank you somuch for being here and watching
us do this and yeah, it's gonnabe quite a fun hour I think.
Don't promise too much.
So, The podcast, She ChangedHistory, we've been doing it
since November and it is exactlywhat it says on the tin, isn't
(02:19):
it?
We talk about people who havechanged history, specifically
women, but women who werewritten out of history either
because men took their credit oreither because, you know, people
don't care.
So we thought it's about time toshed light on that.
Yeah, so if we think of audienceparticipation already, if you
think of sort of famous womenwho've changed history, does
(02:41):
anyone spring to mind?
Yeah.
for you, however far back youwant to go.
Anything.
Ada Lovelace.
Yep.
She's on the list.
Yeah.
Marie Curie, Rosa Parks.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We also put Betty Boothroyd downbecause that's where we are
today.
Yeah.
(03:04):
Yes, absolutely.
And Jenny Liu.
So there are certainly these,this sort of headline figures
that get a lot of the attention,but also behind that there are
Should have been Nobel Prizewinners and just as we're
finding hundreds and thousandsof various women who've had no
recognition throughout history.
either at the time or since andthey're the sort of people that
(03:25):
we're really trying to tohighlight and we try and
highlight a lot of women who goagainst that sort of unconscious
bias that tends to be in place.
So if we think of a pirate youwould tend to think of beardy,
peg legged, rum drinking oldman, not a Chinese pirate queen.
Yeah.
Or if you think of someone whosaved thousands of Jewish
(03:48):
children in World War II, youwould probably think of
Schindler.
Schindler, yeah, rather thanIrina Sendler who did one of our
early episodes, I think that wasthe first one we recorded,
wasn't it?
And so she's an incrediblePolish woman whose story only
came to light because of twoAmerican schoolgirls doing a
school project who thenuncovered her decades long
(04:11):
project to save thousands ofPolish children during World War
II and reunite them with theirfamilies after the war.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
So, Bearing all that in mind,this is exactly what the podcast
do.
Shall we give you some womentoday to learn to?
Brilliant.
We've got one story each.
There'll be 10 15 minutes and,um, we think they're pretty
(04:33):
exciting.
So we think hopefully you willtoo.
So my story today is, Savitri byFule and I've got a little intro
for you.
So, imagine a nine year oldbride in a land bound by
colonization confines.
Savitri by Fule, born intooppression, ignited a
revolution.
(04:53):
From illiterate child up to Tofearless educator, she shattered
caste and gender barriers,defying a century of British
rule.
This is her story, one ofcourage, defiance, and the birth
of modern India.
So we're going to India, guys.
Very exciting.
It's a strong intro.
No pressure.
Sources today, I found anarticle in India today, in the
(05:16):
Economic Times, in the IndiaExpress.
Britannica, which we use all thetime, love that website, and a
BBC article as well.
So, Savidrupoy Phule was born in1831, so January the 3rd, 1831,
in Naigon, which is a smallvillage in the Bombay province
of India.
(05:38):
Um, It's a really poor, veryhighly marginalized part of
India, uh, was back then.
And as was common at the time,she was married at just the age
of nine, just an absolute baby.
She was married off to JyotiThao Phule, and she moved to
Pune, which is now called Punein India.
And she was illiterate at thetime of marriage, so it was very
(06:01):
rare for children to get anysort of education, especially
girls at that time.
Uh, just to give you an idea ofIndia at that time, do you know
much about India at that time?
Not a great deal.
Okay, so we were there.
Britain was there.
We were ruling there.
Yeah, it would be anotherhundred years before we got
independence.
Uh, India got independence.
Because of that, the BritishEast India Company kind of
(06:21):
dominated that region.
You had local rulers there.
So some India rulers did remainin place and they had a little
bit of autonomy.
But that, it was a real powertussle between that and the
Brits.
There was a car system.
So I'd say think of that likeour social hierarchy, but much
stricter with no chance ofmoving through that hierarchy.
(06:43):
That's still a big thing today,isn't it?
In India?
Yeah, and sort of darker skincolours.
Oh, is it?
Tend to get more discriminatedagainst, yeah.
God.
there was high taxes and landownership.
So, um, Zimmar, Zamindarisystem, which was implemented by
the British, and it basicallytook land off traditional
(07:04):
landowners, right?
So, that is what Savitra buys upagainst right and she's nine and
she's been carted off throughmarriage.
She marries, um, Joe Tito Whowas also a child at the time.
I think he was slightly olderYeah, but he was one step up he
had gone through primary schoolso he had a little bit of
(07:24):
knowledge and he was soimpressed With, uh, Savitribai's
enthusiasm, thirst forknowledge, um, that he actually
taught her to read and write asa kid.
How cute is that?
So you've got these two littlekids, one teaching the other.
Um, he encouraged her throughoutand subsequently Savitribai went
(07:44):
through training to become ateacher.
She did two courses and became aqualified teacher in 1847.
Some of the schools that shetaught to be a teacher at are
still there today.
And, um, Because of this, whichis probably not a surprise, um,
Jyoti Thao's family ostracizedthem.
(08:05):
So they were kicked out of theirhome for, um, Savitri by
learning.
Sort of the disgrace of herhaving the gall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How easy was it for her to trainas a teacher?
It's really, we'll go on to alittle bit of her challenges.
Um, but it is very, I imagine itwas really difficult and I
(08:27):
imagine because there wasn't anyresources there.
And I can imagine just in myhead it's just two kids sat like
by candlelight teaching eachother.
You know what I mean, that'swhere it started, that real
innocent kind of vibe.
Um, yeah, they did get kickedout and it was basically because
of their attempts to challengethat status quo because they
just wanted to be a little bitdifferent and he could see how
(08:48):
much she loved learning.
Um, when they did get kickedout.
There is another lady who thisstory isn't about, but I really
want to give her a name check.
Her name's Fatima Sheik.
And, um, if Savitri Bai isn'tknown about, Fatima is really,
really not known about.
Like, she's like another layerdown.
Um, because she's so importantbecause she supported them.
(09:09):
So the reason that Savitri Baihas achieved so much is because
she had her friend there helpingher wherever she could.
So women supporting women,right?
Um, so she actually went tolive, they went to live with
Fatima for a little bit.
Then in 1848, um, the couple, soJyoti Thao and Savitri Bhai
(09:30):
opened a school for lower castegirls in Bywada, Pune.
And their first year they hadsix students.
girls attend school, so theyopened a school for six little
girls.
Even smaller than ForresterDeane schools.
Um, but how I can just see theselittle girls sat cross legged on
the floor, you know, amazing.
(09:51):
So that's like, would have beenthe only opportunity that those
girls had.
What a lifeline.
Only school.
Such a lifeline.
The next year, so 1849, you'llfind throughout this story, the
years go so quick.
Um, they opened a school foradults next and they accepted
children, sorry, students fromall castes.
So it doesn't matter.
So they were dismantling thatsystem that I spoke about
(10:12):
earlier.
Her work was, shocker, met withwidespread hostility.
Especially from orthodox barmenwho did not want to disrupt any
of the status quo.
They were like, we've alwaysdone it this way, this is the
way.
Um, Savitri Dukbhai was oftenverbally abused.
(10:33):
She, on the way to work, shewould have stones, mud and dung
thrown at her on her way intowork.
It just comes up so much,doesn't it?
You can't just leave someone dotheir thing.
We've got to try and take them,take them down.
Yeah.
Almost all of our stories.
And imagine coming into worktoday and being covered with
dung, right?
(10:54):
It got so bad that she had tothen go to work.
bring a spare sari with her.
So she would come get to workand then have to change her
clothes and then start her day.
You just can't imagine it, canyou?
It's absolutely disgusting.
Um, by 1851, they had actuallylaunched three schools, uh, with
150 female students involved.
(11:17):
It's not 100 percent clear howthey're resourcing this.
Um, I tried, but I couldn'treally find out, but they What
they were really clever at as acouple is that they wanted these
girls to go to school and theywanted them to succeed.
So to minimize dropout rates,um, at the schools, they
actually offered stipends to thestudents.
So they would pay for thestudents to be there and make
(11:38):
sure that they're not losing anyearnings or anything like that.
Yeah.
Where did that money come from?
I've written, my next sentencesays, it's not clear where the
money came from.
It says, um, it's not clear ifshe was using her own salary as
a teacher or if she galvanizedother people or if it was like a
community setting.
(11:58):
It's really unclear.
This sounds like a passionproject.
This is a lifestyle for her,isn't it?
Not just a career choice.
Um, And you're exactly right.
It's who she was as a person.
I'm going to share with you someother things that she did.
And you can see that if we takeanything, live by your values.
So over the next six years, um,there was a period where, um,
(12:25):
GT, GT towel fell ill and savvytrue by was visiting her home
family.
So, and there's a letter fromGT.
Gigi t to um, saying, I'm reallyworried about the school.
What are we gonna do about thegirls?
I can't get there.
And she was like, don't worry,fat has got this.
So, you know, that lady I spokeabout earlier, I just wanted to
(12:46):
make that there, but she was theunderlying current that kept
these schools going, which Ithought that was amazing.
Um, on top of building thiscommunity, they wanted to help,
um, these C cars.
So the next thing they did was,since lower castes were
forbidden from using a commonvillage well, So they weren't
(13:08):
allowed to use the well in themiddle of the village.
They were like, well, sod this,we'll go and open our own well.
And in their back garden, theybuilt a well.
So that meant that anyone, nomatter what caste you were from,
could use the water from thatwell, because they wanted people
to feel included in society.
These revolutionary acts weren'twithout backlash.
(13:28):
And there was a lot of press.
They were kind of getting areputation for being this kind
of couple.
Revolutionary act being, um,Providing a well between
suicide.
Yes.
So true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, but this courage and thisdetermination became a
cornerstone of savvy true PA's,uh, legacy.
Um, despite all the sphereopposition, they opened 18
(13:49):
schools for girls in Pona, uh,in the region.
And Savvy Trpa was declared thebest teacher in the Bombay
presidency, which was by anEnglish.
in 1852.
So she was recognized and sheset the foundations for women's
education in India.
So some recognition from theestablishment.
Masses.
(14:10):
She's really, really wellthought of in, uh, in India.
And.
Her work wasn't limited to theclassroom, so she wrote and
published poetry.
So that little girl who was likelearning when she was really
young, just genuinely lovedlearning.
And all her poetry coveredthings from equality, self
respect, inspiring generationsof women to rise above
(14:32):
discrimination.
Her writings weren't justexpressive, um, for creativity,
they were also revolutionarytools.
Like that word again, galvaniseother people.
One of her, um, poems I'vewritten down here was called Go
Get Education.
Which I thought was so lovely.
Um, you could totally see herusing that in a lesson, couldn't
(14:53):
you?
Absolutely.
And it just shows that she hadthese consistent values all the
way throughout her life.
So, um, So, she's helpingschoolgirls, she's helping low
class people get fresh water.
She's also helping widows.
She affected all parts ofsocieties.
For example, when a disparatewidow's health began to fail,
Savitri Paiyoh did somethingremarkable.
(15:14):
She didn't just offercompassion, she stepped in and
raised that woman's child as herown, along with her husband.
That boy grew up.
His name was Yashwan and hebecame a beacon of hope for the
region because he trained to bea doctor.
Um, and he kind of symbolizedeverything she had been working
(15:35):
towards, I guess, is because,you know, he was then going to
have another generation in termsof health.
Um, this story of her adoptingYashwan symbolizes her fight
against the stigma surroundingwidows and their children.
That's because At the time,widowhood, if you lost your
husband, meant social exclusionand it meant humiliation.
(15:59):
Like it was their fault.
And it, yeah, and that crops upin, again, we seem to have had a
lot of widows in our story.
We do like a widow.
Yeah, we do like a widow.
A Victorian widow.
Yeah, we like it when the mengo.
That's our wheelhouse.
Yeah.
But often they wouldn't beallowed to carry on living where
they are, couldn't run abusiness, all sorts that they
wouldn't be able to do justbecause they're a widow.
Yeah, Laurie's very good atthat.
(16:20):
Recognizing you when you'reinside a marriage when you're
outside of marriage.
It's like you don't exist andWell back to back Victorian ish
times And at the same here, solegislation was passed in 1856
to actually allow the remarriageSo if you lost your child And
after 1856, she could remarry.
(16:41):
Hallelujah.
So, um, she even fought againstthe practice of child marriage.
Like I said, she was married offat nine.
So, you know, she clearly wasn'thappy about that, which is fair.
Um, she built a large shelterfor widows.
um, and child brides cast asidefor their families and provided
education for them.
So not only was she like, comein, she was like, come in, I'll
(17:04):
educate you.
I'll make your life so muchbetter than you could ever be.
Um, she also campaigned againstsati, which is the practice of a
widow sacrificing themselves ontheir deceased husband's pyre,
which is where they burn thecorpse.
It's quite a dark practice.
Sorry, I thought you said thenthat the widow would jump on her
husband's pyre.
(17:26):
Um, it was a practice that wasabolished in 1829, but it was
still prevalent in Sabati'stime.
But, all she was doing didtrickle through all parts of
society.
So she's, like I said, children,facilities, older generations.
(17:48):
And also, because this didtrickle through society, other
people followed suit.
So the MP, um, Darbahai, NayaRoshi opened a school for girls
at the same time and again evenhe earned a huge wrath of, a
huge wrath from orthodox Indianmen as well.
(18:11):
Not only that, Savitri Bhai usedher marriage as a blueprint and
started the practice of marry,marrying without a dowry or
without a priest, so marryingfor love, heaven forbid.
Um, and then she, This marriagethat she, um, publicised was
called Satya Sodhak, which isbasically taking an oath in
(18:35):
favour of education andequality.
So it was like, yes, we canmarry, but I want to value my
education.
Jyoti Thao died, her husbanddied in 1890, and then, so that
made her her widow herself.
But even in this moment, SavitriBhai defied expectations and
social conventions, and she wasthe one who lit the fire of
(18:56):
cremation, which is normally arole reserved for men.
And didn't jump on it.
No, she didn't.
Um, On top of that, she's justmade on top of that.
She then, um, a bubonic plagueepidemic hit in 1897.
She just carried on being anurse in that time.
(19:17):
She was like, well, now I'mgoing to look after them as
well.
Um, she had a shelter that sheworked with her son, Yashwan,
because he's a doctor now.
And, um, she set up and caredfor patients.
Tragically, this is the end ofthe life.
She contracted the disease whileshe was helping those patients,
um, while serving others anddied.
(19:37):
But her life is a testament ofselfless service, just helping
other people, right?
Um, her legacy, like we said,she was recognized in her
lifetime, which is quite rarefor some of our women that we
talk about.
Um, But also that carried onafter she, she died as well.
So in 1983, Poon CityCorporation erected a monument
(19:58):
in her honor.
She's got a stamp.
Oh, we love a stamp.
She was given a stamp in herhonor in 1998.
Um, the University of Poonactually changed its name to the
Savitribai Phule Poon Universityin 2015.
And she's got a Google Doodle.
(20:18):
Um, and her, this is myfavourite thing, her birthday is
now known as Girl Child Day inIndia.
So it's a whole day dedicated tolittle girls in India.
That's pretty cool, isn't it?
And that is the story of SaviChiray Phule.
Love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's really empowering the,uh, seems a bit of an obvious
(20:39):
thing to say when we're sat inthe OU, but this focus on
education and the power thatthat then gives these people to
bring themselves up as well.
and probably why it was sointimidating and people wanted
to bring them down and notadjust that status quo.
And it's interconnectedness,isn't it?
It's all the, all the differentparts of people's lives that she
affected and gave to otherpeople, gave a leg up.
(21:01):
It's pretty cool.
Thank you, Vicky.
We got any questions orcomments?
Sorry about that.
Any questions, any comments?
Was there a practice for thehusbands to jump on the pyre if
(21:36):
their wives died?
I'm not even going to build anymystery.
I'm just going to talk aboutGrace Hopper today, who's
someone I've been dying to dofor quite some time.
She was a quite remarkablewoman, very small woman, but
remarkable, um, who made thesegroundbreaking, groundbreaking
(21:59):
contributions to computerscience back in the days when
computers were still largemechanical.
Machines with mechanical valves.
I think people know GraceHopper.
Oh, we've got Grace Hopper fans.
Yeah in the house If I say Graceyou say Yeah, she really sort of
(22:20):
laid many of the foundations formodern programming as we know it
now and had a great influenceon, um, a couple of particular
programming languages, some ofwhich are powered banks up until
quite recently.
Um, and again, a real focus oneducation as well.
We'll come on to that.
(22:40):
It's like we planned it.
It's nice.
We're very good.
It's all lined up pretty well.
Yeah.
So Grace was born Grace BrewsterMurray on December 9th in 1906
in New York City.
And from a young age she wasalways curious about Everything,
wanted to know how everythingworked, wanted to know how
everything worked so much thatshe was keen to take it apart.
(23:01):
So her mum walked in one day andfound, I don't know why one
house had seven alarm clocks,but all seven of them were
dismantled on the kitchen tablebecause Grace wanted to find
out.
And it's sort of difficult to beannoyed about that.
You want to encourage your childto be inquisitive.
But you also need to get up forwork.
You need to get up for work,yeah.
So she was, um.
(23:21):
She was allowed to have onealarm clock that she could play
around with and dismantle.
Um, her father really encouragedher to pursue a good, a good
education and envisage a careerand really push through with
that.
He was in quite ill health, sowas worried he wouldn't always
be able to provide for thefamily.
Um, and then in 1928, so age 22,um, she graduated Phi Beta
(23:44):
Kappa.
Okay.
Yeah.
Woo.
Yeah.
Uh, from Vassar College, uh,with degrees in mathematics and
physics, and, and, and a 1930and a PhD in maths in 1934 from
Yale.
Which is a really key time,isn't it, for STEM, that kind of
era?
Yeah.
And it was actually quite a, I'mnot saying it was easy for her,
(24:06):
but that particular time wasquite a good time for women in
mathematics and physics andcoming on to, um, you know, Um,
like the birth of computing,particularly code breaking.
Um, a lot of the developmentaround that, the companies and
the researchers were justlooking for people who were good
at solving puzzles and it didn'tmatter what background you came
(24:26):
from or what gender you were.
If you had the right mind, youcould get into that field.
It should just be, yeah, itshouldn't be this strange
concept.
So while pursuing her PhD atYale, she insisted that she
still kept teaching at VassarCollege.
She wanted to keep educatingothers, even though she had her
(24:47):
own thing to pursue.
And had an admiration for theNavy, as some of her family had
been in the Navy in priorgenerations.
And she quit at one point, shealso quite liked the colour
blue, so was keen to join theNavy.
But was Not allowed to join theNaval Reserves initially because
(25:07):
she was too little.
Okay.
She was a very slight woman andshe was 15 pounds underweight to
be in the Naval Reserves.
How tall was she, do we know?
Uh, I'm going to say three foottwo, but that's probably not
accurate.
Um, She fought back against thisand then eventually in World War
II was allowed to join the USNaval Reserves, where because of
her background in maths andphysics, she was assigned to the
(25:30):
Bureau of Ordnance ComputationProject at Harvard University.
So, Harvard had an earlycomputer that they imaginatively
called the Mark I.
It was their first, and it wasan enormous electromechanical
calculator that they used forcalculations.
calculating ordnancetrajectories and other things.
(25:51):
And we call it a computer, butit's very, very different.
I mean, probably the picturemost of us have seen is, um,
Bletchley Park, things in there,but these are, still has
transistors, but thosetransistors are large vacuum
tubes and the computer isprogrammed mechanically.
(26:12):
And so her combination ofphysics and her engineering
expertise combined with themathematics to.
Come up with the algorithms.
just made her absolutely perfectfor this job.
And she wrote the first evercomputer manual, which was a
manual on, a manual of operationfor the automatic sequence
controlled calculator.
Um, yeah.
(26:36):
Uh, which detailed how tooperate, um, this machine.
And incidentally, uh, althoughshe didn't come up with the
term, the term for a bug incomputing and computer code,
Came from this machine.
Uh, it wasn't working asexpected, and they found a moth
trapped in a relay, and henceComputerberg.
(26:57):
Computer moth.
She was offered a fullprofessorship at Vassar College
after the war, but turned thatdown to continue her work with
computers.
It's like she had a lightbulbmoment seeing that there's
something in here that maybecomputers could be the next big
thing.
Um, and this very sort ofnascent field of computer
(27:21):
science.
And she wanted to pursue thismore and educate more people in
its potential.
So she starts workingprogramming, um, worked on the
first commercial electroniccomputer, which was the Univac
one, uh, around 1949.
And then in 1952, she wrote thefirst compiler, uh, which is
(27:46):
software that converts code thathumans can maybe understand into
the code that the computerunderstands.
It's amazing.
In order to run.
And this was the first, um,having tried to write code on a
self serve to do like it.
No, it's so complex, isn't it?
Yeah, it's really specialized.
And I mean, machine code sort ofthe most basic you are telling
(28:10):
each of those sort of memorylocations and transistors in the
chip what to do.
So it's, it's amazing.
enormously complicated and youdo really need a doctorate in
mathematics or Well that's whatI was thinking, it's so high
skilled, isn't it?
It is like you have, especiallyin that time, you would have to
be at the top of your game.
Absolutely.
(28:30):
Top.
Yeah, so she made a compiler,which made it slightly easier
for some other people.
They could write in a slightlyhigher level language, which
made slightly more sense.
And then the compiler would dealwith figuring out how to make
the computer actually do whatyou want it to.
So she wrote the thing, wrotethe compiler.
Yeah, but her big idea, the bigsort of revolution that she
(28:51):
kicked off was the idea of beingable to program in a language
that was In English and waswords rather than before then it
was sort of almost purelyalgebraic notation.
You needed a degree inmathematics to understand all of
these operations that you wereputting in to understand what
the code if a lay person were tolook at it, it would make no
(29:14):
sense.
And she felt that this was areal barrier to a wider adoption
of computers and what they couldoffer to all of industry.
Is this related to what we spokeabout with a little play?
You know, she wrote thealgorithm.
So she did write it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She's sort of This is like thenext level.
(29:34):
Or is it different?
I guess so.
Ada was slightly different inthat she was not typing a
language, but she was stillhaving to figure out the
algorithm.
Yeah.
So this is sort of how youtranslate that algorithm into
something the computerunderstands.
We did an episode on AdaLovelace.
(29:55):
Not long ago, did we?
Not that long, no.
And you had a fabulous time justgeeking out about everything to
do.
I think it took us about threehours to record.
It was such a long recording.
And this other thing that shedid, yeah.
Um, oh, we even found thediagram, didn't we, of her
actual algorithm.
Oh, we did, that was reallyfunny.
Yeah, absolutely indecipherable.
Um, so Grace had this idea thatrather than just purely using
(30:19):
what was essentially a veryelaborate calculator at the time
used for very elaboratecalculations, it could have more
use in business, for example,but the people in business who
would want to.
Use this to analyze their datato analyze their sales or their
stockholding or things neededsomething far more accessible.
These people had specializationsin other areas, not in the
(30:41):
mathematics that was needed toprogram.
So she developed the firstEnglish language data processing
compiler, which was calledFlowmatic on.
This was sort of her big, big.
Achievement, I would say, and itmade it just so much more
accessible to so many, uh,different people and meant that
computers could start to bemarketed more to the private
(31:02):
sector and have greater adoptionin business.
We love at the OU a Power BI,don't we?
We absolutely love a Power BI,and I imagine this is, like,
what she was thinking.
She's often touted as the motheror the grandmother or all the
creator of cobalt, which was thesort of follow on from flow.
(31:24):
Matic.
She didn't directly develop itherself, but she got together
the team of six people whoworked on it.
And she was a real advocate andoutside advisor to the
Department of Defense who fundedits development at the time, as
it did on many projects thatthen came into public use cobalt
common business orientedlanguage.
(31:46):
Was then used on mainframes,very large computers, um, in
businesses around the world andthere's sort of still in use in
like quite a lot of bankingsoftware, uh, it's still there.
That's partly because it's sodifficult to figure out how it
works and then convert it tosomething newer and most of the
people who used to understandCOBOL are now dead.
(32:07):
So, yeah, yeah, um, I think it'sprobably good money if you want
to like learn how to be a COBOLdeveloper.
to keep those up to date.
So second career.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, so she, she had a biginfluence on that and her
phlegmatic language sort of gavethe groundwork for COBOL and
(32:31):
then people expanded upon it.
Uh, there was a lady, JeanSamet, who was actually part of
the, the six who directlydeveloped COBOL.
Yeah.
And she's very keen to point outthat Grace Hopper wasn't on the
team.
Actually, she's very important,but a little bit of friction
there, but still a lot of creditgoes to her just for this
(32:53):
concept of the English languageand more usable.
So Grace Diplomatic.
Yeah.
And that allowed Cobalt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Got it.
On it went.
Um, she remained a NavyReservist, uh, throughout her
career in the private sector andwas recalled to duty a number of
times, usually for computingbased projects.
(33:15):
Um, so she was responsible forstandardizing the Navy's, uh,
computer languages.
Um, What?
So they kept bringing her backin?
They kept bringing her back in.
So she tried to leave?
Tried to leave a number oftimes, but they kept bringing
her back to active duty.
It's like, we've got a problemonly Grace can solve here.
Yeah, presumably.
That's amazing.
I think Gene Samet was furiousabout it, but, um, and various,
(33:41):
um, various awards, NationalMedal of Technology in 1991, uh,
Distinguished Fellow of theBritish Computer Society in
1973, and posthumously awardedthe Presidential Medal of
Freedom in 2016.
Um, The thing I like most aboutGrace though is it was a great
(34:03):
achievement, uh, to sort of laythe foundation for this, but she
was always most interested ineducation and accessibility, um,
of making, um, Computersaccessible to a wide community,
making them more usable to morepeople of educating people in
how to use them, and she says,although she's sort of known for
(34:25):
her achievement in writingflowmatic, she says.
When asked about her greatestaccomplishment, Hopper once
said, it's all the young peopleI've trained over the years.
That's more important thanwriting the first compiler.
And she was always.
They're there to try and makeconcepts.
(34:47):
accessible.
It felt like a bit of agatekeeper situation having
computing open only to thosewith very advanced sort of
scientific degrees.
She wanted these concepts to beaccessible to more people
because that the knowledge ispower and that's what allows
people to then not be an expertin computing but actually create
something that solves a broaderproblem.
(35:08):
It's also thinking 10 stepsahead.
Yeah, it's not like we've got awater for when we need this
thing to do this.
It's, you know, how can itaffect everyone in a day to day
situation?
Because if you, it sounds likeif you've used a bank, if you've
used an Excel spreadsheet, ifshe has in fact influenced your
life.
(35:28):
Oh, we've all used something ora company that has COBOL as its
infrastructure at some point inour life.
Yeah, apparently there's, Ithink, 200 billion lines of
COBOL still in active use today.
Yeah.
Um, she was quite famous for,uh, a particular demonstration
(35:50):
to try and make, um, Quite anabstract concept, more
understandable.
Uh, in the, when transistors andelectronics and the processors
went down to sort of nanosecondtype response times, they could
do a calculation in ananosecond.
She was like, I've got no ideawhat a nanosecond is.
That means nothing to me.
Can you send me a nanosecond?
So she got the Department ofDefense, whichever department
(36:12):
she was liaising with, to sendher a piece of wire, which was
11.
8 inches long.
Think about that.
We'll measure it later, which isthe length of wire that
electricity travels in ananosecond.
Wow.
So it's just that if you take itout to a microsecond, it's
something like 900 yards orsomething.
But just as an actualdemonstration, yeah, a real
(36:34):
visual on just how much it'scoming along.
And she, Seemed to really seethe importance of computers in
the future, where it was allgoing.
There was an interview that shedid on 60 Minutes in the States.
Yeah.
And the interviewer was reallysort of trying to push the point
that he thought we'd reached thepinnacle of computing.
Now that we've got'em down tothe size of a room, um, and
(36:55):
we've, to the size of a room,this is, it got COBOL that can,
that can do 10 calculations persecond.
He was like, we've reached thepinnacle.
And she's like, no, no, we've,we've just about.
built the Model T.
We've still got all of, all ofthis to come.
And even pre internet days, shewas lobbying the Department of
(37:17):
Defense, while some placeswanted more computers that were
bigger, she was advocating fornetworks of smaller computers,
more usable, more accessible.
Just sounds like she knew, shejust knew what society needed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, a couple of other quotesfrom a ship in port is safe, but
(37:38):
that's what not ships are builtfor.
Sail out to sea and do newthings.
Oh, strong.
I'm not good at sailing, but Ilike it.
No one's noticed.
It's fine.
Um, probably my favorite one isthat if it's a good idea, go
ahead and do it.
It's much easier to apologizethan it is to get permission.
(38:00):
I'm sure there are many thingsthat doesn't apply to.
Um, yes, you're not a five atthe OU.
And actually tying in with yourstory, the humans are allergic
to change.
Yeah, they love to say we'vealways done it this way.
And she tries to fight that.
Yeah, it's a lesson for life,isn't it?
And it's a lesson.
(38:23):
That it's all that comfort zonestuff, isn't it?
It's like just because it makesyou uncomfortable doesn't mean
it's wrong.
And I think that's somethingthat we can maybe all take away
is if it feels uncomfortable.
It's a good chance that you'redoing something right and that
you're moving forward in someway.
Quite possibly.
(38:43):
Yeah.
And this, uh, just disdain forcarrying on because that's the
way it is, because often the waythat we do things has just been
a totally arbitrary choice bysomeone who wasn't qualified to
make it.
And then people have forgottento question it, but she was
always questioning.
She came up against so muchresistance for putting in, you
know, English words intoprogramming languages that
people can understand.
(39:04):
It's like, why would we everneed to do that?
Who needs that?
But even up to not being allowedin the Navy because she was too
little, um, to the programminglanguages to disagreeing
seemingly with every higher upshe came across.
Um, but yeah, she just poweredon, which is incredible.
And that's Grace Hopper.
That's Grace Hopper.
(39:24):
Amazing.
Any thoughts on Grace Hopper?
I mean Looks like we've got twoGrace Hopper experts in the
audience, which worries meslightly.
Well, thank you.
Well, thanks everyone.
Thank you.
And thank you guys for beinghere.
(39:51):
Yeah, we're She Changed History.
Um, we are a podcast that is inthe big wide world.
It's not an OU thing.
So we're on.
Spotify, Amazon, wherever.
This is our QR code.
You can see all our, we've got20 women today.
Yesterday.
I think we've got 20 episodes,which is brilliant.
Um, and we'll keep doing morebecause it just turns out we've
(40:14):
got a huge list.
Haven't we?
The problem is every time Iresearch one, it adds four more
to the list.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't think we'll ever endbecause we've got all these
women to get through.
Um, but yeah, if you could like,rate, subscribe on that, on any
socials and share us, we'dreally appreciate it because,
um, and we're so lucky to havethis audience here, which is
(40:34):
amazing.
But if we could keep growing andspread the word to these amazing
women, that'd be fantastic.
And thank you.
so much.
I am feeling Grace Hopperbecause you might be able to
tell I'm also little andprobably wouldn't reach height
requirements for a lot ofthings.
Um, but that was brilliant, um,really great.
(40:55):
Um, I didn't know either ofthose stories.
So, um, really great.
I've got a couple of takeawaysthat I think really resonate
with what we've been talkingabout in International Women's
Week.
Um, so thank you for bringingthose to life for us with those
stories.
Um, first of all, womensupporting other women.
Yes, lift them up, shout outabout them and celebrate their
achievements.
sharing our knowledge, you know,I mean, you use that, that
(41:19):
famous phrase, knowledge ispower.
Um, let's not make knowledge bepower.
Let's share it more widely.
Just keeping, keeping on, youknow, I've done loads already,
but you need water.
I know I'm going to sort thatout for you.
Just love that.
Um, don't limit your, yourambitions.
You know, there's still more todo.
Um, get comfortable beinguncomfortable.
I liked that as well, especiallyaround change.
(41:40):
Um, I think they're takeawaysthat we can take away.
Thank you.
That's been brilliant.
Um, I do follow, um, this onFacebook, highly recommend it.
Um, so.
So, um, just crack on and do itbecause there is so much to
learn.
And thank you for lifting thesewomen out of history and bring
them to life for us.
That's been brilliant.
Thank you.
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