March 18, 2025 • 43 mins
Caroline Norton's Battle: Reforming Women’s Rights in Victorian England
In this episode of 'She Changed History,' hosts Cara and Vicky dive into the life and relentless struggle of Caroline Norton, a Victorian-era woman whose tragic marital circumstances led her to become a pivotal figure in legal reforms for women's rights in England. The episode discusses Norton's unfortunate marriage with George Norton, highlighting the domestic violence, legal battles, and Caroline's tireless efforts to change child custody laws and married women's property rights. The hosts emphasize Caroline's impactful writings and pamphlets, her relationship with high society figures, and her crucial role in the passing of the Custody of Infants Act and the Marriage and Divorce Act. Despite not being a feminist by today’s standards, Norton's advocacy laid foundational changes that significantly improved women's legal standing in the 19th century.
Sources:
Difficult Women by Helen Lewis
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/norton_caroline.shtml
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Caroline-Norton
https://law-school.open.ac.uk/news/meet-caroline-norton-fighting-women%E2%80%99s-rights-it-was-even-cool
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/blue-plaques/caroline-norton/
https://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/norton/nc-biography.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whigs_(British_political_party)
00:00 Introduction and Friendly Banter
01:54 Introducing Caroline Norton
03:43 Caroline's Early Life and Family Struggles
10:42 Marriage to George Norton
13:17 The Unfortunate Marriage
15:00 Caroline's Fight for Independence
16:01 The Affair and Legal Battles
20:32 The Male-Dominated Trial
22:26 Caroline's Struggle for Custody
24:25 Using Writing as a Weapon
25:26 The Fight for Legal Reform
31:41 A Heartbreaking Loss
33:01 Caroline's Continued Battle
35:56 The Marriage and Divorce Act
39:36 Caroline's Legacy
40:54 Final Thoughts and Reflections
43:20 Closing Remarks
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1571853262-1 (00:08):
Okay, shall we go?
Yes, please.
warning this episode doescontain domestic violence.
hi, Cora.
Hi.
How are you?
I am very well, thank you.
And yourself?
I'm good, thank you.
the sun is out.
We're shining.
Spring is here.
Woo.
I think March is one of myfavorite months of the year.
(00:28):
Is it that cusp thing whereyou're like, it's happening,
it's light out after work?
You feel the sun in your faceand you're like, oh, I am human.
Shake off that winter of Restand gloom.
Yes.
I was very bold yesterday and Iwent outside without a coat.
That was, I know, that was a bigdeal.
(00:49):
Like out, like away from thehome.
I went to get my injection, goodstuff.
I did fall over yesterdaythough, oh no.
I was clean.
I was on a chair cleaningcobwebs and I missed my foot in
and I slammed like on the floorand all my right hand side is
now bruised.
And and this happened, yeah,this happened just before the
injection, right?
So I was like, please don'ttouch this arm.
(01:12):
I'm not happy with you standingon a chair.
Nobody should be.
I didn't even think about it,there was no risk assessment,
this is why you need old peoplein your life because I'm here to
tell you don't stand on a chairI love how you think you're old.
That's so funny.
i'm half a century old.
I earned this.
Hey I've been kicking around.
(01:34):
Have you seen those t shirtsthat are about now, Greg Wallace
has done his thing and it'swomen of a certain age versus
the patriarchy.
And I was like, yes.
Yes, ma'am.
Do you want to hear a story?
Yes, please.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Hopefully our listeners will aswell.
Welcome to She Changed History.
We didn't say that at the top.
Hi, come along.
Hello.
Hello.
You got me in Kara today.
(01:54):
and I'm going to share a storywith you about, a very Just
wild, insane story from a lady,called Caroline Norton.
Have you heard of CarolineNorton before?
No, it's not a name that I knew.
Alright, let's go on and write.
got a little intro for you, Herchildren, her life, ripped away.
Promises whispered, thenbrutally broken.
(02:15):
This is the story of a mother'sdesperate fight to see her
children.
A fight against a husband,against a system, against the
very laws that stole her sons.
And in one case to never be seenagain.
Prepare to witness the heartwrenching struggle of Caroline
Norton and how she used thistorment to reform divorce law
(02:35):
for all of England's women.
Wow.
Oh my God that's heavy.
So sources today, I found thisstory in a.
an amazing book called DifficultWomen by Helen Lewis.
a BBC article on CarolineNorton, a Britannica article,
which we love using Britannicahere.
actually an open universityarticle.
(02:56):
and I actually know the lecturerwho wrote it, which is really
cool.
englishheritage.
org.
and a few other ones.
To learn about some of thecontext.
We are in Victorian England.
Suffragette movement is oftenseen as like the pioneering
turning point for femalestruggle, basically.
(03:17):
But The generation before thatactually had done a lot of the
campaigning Women's rights wereactually fought long before the
suffragettes and that's nottaken away from anything the
suffragettes did.
It's just really interestingthis whole foundational period
that we don't really talk about.
So we're going to be in highsociety because that makes sense
(03:37):
that, women in high society aremore likely to be in rooms where
they can change the law SoCaroline Sheridan was her.
Maiden name.
She was born in London on the22nd of March 1808 she, it turns
out she's actually thegranddaughter of a famous
playwright called RichardBrinson Sheridan.
Actually her father died whenshe was quite young, so eight
(03:59):
years old.
That's not uncommon for ourstories.
There tends to be a loss of aparent quite early on sometimes,
because what that often leads tois serious financial problems.
Her father, he died quite young.
He left, get this, four sons andthree daughters.
No savings and a modest pension.
(04:21):
Oh my days.
Oh okay.
In high society.
He thought I'll be around toprovide for everybody and then
one reason or another heVanishes.
And suddenly there's this familyto seven children.
I just seven children made that.
Ooh, mother.
Oh my gosh.
Exactly.
So the widow of Richard wasquite lucky because she was
(04:43):
offered grace and favor whichcame in the forms of an
apartment in Hampton court.
So she got lodged in Hamptoncourt because the grandfather
because this playwright was sowell known and respected in
society.
She actually got lucky, I think,it's not like she had many
options, yes, write up Schitt'sCreek let's be quite honest,
(05:04):
seven is a lot of mouths tofeed.
For sure.
Caroline then grew up, so shewas in her teens, she enjoys
writing.
She wrote a couple of novels andpoetry and these were well
respected within society.
Some of them actually called herthe female Byron.
So she was very, it was goodwhat she was producing, which is
(05:24):
great.
Caroline herself is known to bequick witted, vivacious, and an
artan of the wig.
Do you know what the wigs are?
All I know is that it's spelledW H I G.
So we're not talking about aheadwear.
We're not talking about that.
Beyond that, not a clue.
(05:46):
A whole part of history that Ididn't know about, The Wigs, the
name Wigs was derived from theEnglish anti monarchist and
opposed Catholic emancipationparty in the UK but it actually
was founded in the USA.
It was a USA party between the,I don't know though, because I
(06:07):
don't think they really achievedmuch.
Between the 1680s and the 1850s,the Whigs contested power with
their rivals who in that timewere the Tories.
Over time, the Whigs became theLiberal Party.
And they merged with partieslike the Radicals in the 1850s.
So the Whigs joined these othersand the Liberal Party was
(06:28):
formed.
But at that time, which was1886, many Whigs left the
Liberal Party over the issue ofIrish Home Rule.
So that's how the LiberalUnionist Party started.
Eventually, they were swallowedup by the Conservative Party in
1912.
So it's a really brief part ofhistory.
(06:51):
Where there was this anti Torysubculture kind of forming.
I'm hearing between that andthese women taking their
foundational steps, it soundslike a time when there was an
established norm and maybe noreal organized movements to
speak of yet.
And these are the peoplelighting the touch paper.
(07:14):
And this is where you start togain momentum to resist these
established, maybe unfairstructural norms.
Yeah.
I'm going into the wigs a smallbit just there because it's
really important later on.
And I think because of whatyou're saying, it's because
they're seen as this unorganizedleft wing unfounded values, but
(07:35):
it's really interesting.
They do form into the liberalunionist party, which then forms
into the conservative party astime goes on.
Yeah.
But just keeping in mind thatwigs are anti monarchist and
opposed Catholic emancipation.
As with all high societies whenthe girls are old enough, they
get entered into polite societyin London.
(07:55):
So we're thinking debutanteballs, we're thinking very
Bridgerton vibes, the ton, thatkind of thing.
because there were threesisters, they were known very
well within society as the threegraces.
And because of that, there wasquite a lot of pressure for them
to marry off as well.
So it was almost like thesisters were almost in
(08:16):
competition with each other alittle bit because the mum was
desperate for the dowry so shecould secure their future and,
yeah.
So there was a lot of pressureon these poor girls when they're
entering society.
So Helen, who is the eldestdaughter, she's, there's a quote
here that Georgie, Georgina, isthe beauty, Carrie, Caroline's
(08:37):
the wit, and I, Helen, ought tobe the good one, but I am not.
So she found that she wasstruggling, I think, with this
pressure of society.
These three women I think it'sfair to say they're well
educated and you can see thatthroughout Caroline's story,
caroline wasn't a feminist.
(08:58):
She didn't believe in equalityfor women.
She was spoken about womenshould know their place, which
is a kind of grating point onwhat we're going to talk about.
So just have that in the back ofyour mind as well.
So like I said, with lots ofchildren and not many resources,
it was really important that thethree girls marry and they marry
well.
By convention it was the eldestsister must be married first.
(09:21):
So that's how it should roll insociety.
And Georgina was the youngestbut she was also the most
beautiful.
Like we said in Helen's quote.
I think Caroline and Helen,therefore felt a lot of pressure
to get married first becausethey knew that everyone was
going to be chasing Georgina.
Basically, they almost wanted tolike, just clear the runway so
(09:41):
that also that I must, I thinkthat was me in that situation.
I would have been so jealous.
Yeah, it must have beenincredibly difficult for them
because presumably they probablyreally loved each other, but
then there's that pressure thatalmost pits them against one
another.
That's terrible.
Which you don't see inBridgerton.
(10:02):
There's not that vibe inBridgerton because obviously
there's lots of children.
in the Bridgerton family butactually the competition between
the children is something Ihaven't seen in that series
anyway, so that's reallyinteresting that this dynamic
must have been there, like itmust have been in my society at
the time but isn't shown inpopular culture.
So everyone's focused onGeorgina because she's the
(10:23):
prettiest.
Caroline herself was quitepopular, but she was mostly
popular with older men becausethey appreciated her wit.
She was known to use sarcasm andthe younger men didn't really
know how to handle this, so theywere less interested in her.
Bless them.
Yeah she met lots of people inthe London season but Only
George Norton came forward.
(10:45):
He was the called the HonourableGeorge Norton.
He was brother of Lord Grantley.
So he was quite high standingand he proposed marriage.
So this is the only optionCaroline has got.
And she's got this pressure,like you say, to clear the
runway for Georgina.
The family didn't, the Sheridansdidn't know much about him
beyond the fact that he was wellconnected because of his brother
(11:07):
in law Grantley.
And therefore his income wasvouched for.
He was a safe pair of hands, itsounds like a business
transaction rather than any kindof romance or it's just very
practical.
How can we, merge these twofamilies and keep everyone
moving forward.
And again, I keep harping toBridgerton because it's in the
popular culture and people willhopefully understand it.
(11:29):
There's a family in theBridgertons called the
Featheringtons who are much morefocused on business.
They're much more focused ontrying to get the best for their
family through means.
Okay.
And that's because their fatherdied, so their financial
resources are a bit shaky.
And so I can totally get where.
(11:51):
The girl's mum is coming frombecause that's Lady Farrington,
basically, doesn't mean it's agood thing.
It just means it's a sign of thetimes and she's working in the
society they're living in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
Perfect.
George Norton was trained as abarrister, but he didn't
practice.
He and his family were strongTories whilst the Sheridans were
more aligned to this Whig partyand were seen as radicals.
(12:15):
It sounds like Caroline didn'taccept the marriage straight
away.
She tried to go another seasonbecause her younger sister Was
coming up basically, so she waslike, okay, she had a little
time.
He had a little time.
But it didn't Make anydifference and Caroline later
made her decision to marryGeorge Norton on the 30th of
June 1827 in Hanover Square.
(12:38):
She was 19 at the time.
So baby and he was 26.
So there's a slight age gapGeorge Norton became an MP for
Guildford which is like SouthLondon and Caroline knew that
something wasn't right.
cause she waited that year, shewas trying to look at the field
(13:00):
and I think she knew becausetheir political opinions are so
different.
I think she had an underlyingcurrent that something wasn't
right.
So eventually she concededbecause she wanted the well
being of her family to be takencare of, basically.
So it was a decision she madefor the family, not for herself.
In all the articles I've read,it's called an unfortunate
(13:20):
marriage.
Which I don't know if that'slike a term of the time, but it
was in most articles anunfortunate marriage.
All I can deduce is that it wasa marriage that was doomed from
the start.
Okay, so it's not a good match.
Yeah, exactly.
Norton didn't like Caroline'scleverness or wit.
I think he saw it as a threat hewould discuss None of like
(13:45):
political or public or privateaffairs with her.
He just did cut her out of allthose like decisions completely
Like I said, the politicalsources were a source of
friction And also he didn't likehow close she was with her
family.
Huge red flag.
He didn't like her going to seethem And because they encouraged
(14:07):
this radical political stancewithin her.
He was like, Oh my God, dude,marry someone else.
You knew.
Within a few months of theirmarriage, George started to
drink excessively and heresorted to physical violence in
some disputes.
Sometimes these.
Physical violence attacks, Iwill be calling them was so bad
(14:31):
that the servants had to step inand intervene.
And if we know anything aboutservants from that period, it is
that you are seen and not heard.
You are not meant to step in.
yeah, so it must have been sobad for the to feel like they
have to.
A lot of their arguments werebased around lack of money.
Their financial pressuresincreased with the three sons
(14:54):
that they had.
So they had a boy calledFletcher, a boy called Brinsley,
and the youngest was a boycalled William.
Their financial situation was sobad it got to the point where
Caroline was forced to supportthe family with her writing.
So she'd published a couple ofbooks and they were well
received.
Like I said earlier, she wasreally talented in this area.
She even had an appointment aseditor of a magazine, two
(15:18):
magazines, one's called La BelleAssemblée and one's called Court
Magazine.
With these appointments andpublications came the idea that
she could have money.
She could earn her own money andthat independence crept in,
which I imagine aligns reallynicely to this radical political
(15:39):
stance she's been brought upwith.
And the fact that she has valueit's.
Financial, but also bringingsomething to society when he's
trying to box her away and shuther down.
So the circumstances let her beher for sure.
With this independence and thisreally deteriorating marriage
(16:00):
is.
And this is important to notefor the story, it's more than
likely that she had an affairwith the current Home Secretary
at the time and later PrimeMinister Lord Melbourne.
There was gossip around the HighCourt that surrounded Caroline
and this.
understandably humiliatedGeorge.
You're an MP and your wife'splaying away with the big dog.
(16:22):
Oh, that's, oh.
Yeah, yeah that's icky.
Although it is noted that heinitially encouraged this
relationship for political gain.
So he saw it as like a.
And like flirt, butter him up alittle bit and she went, okay,
all right.
If you want me to, Georgie.
I understand the assignment.
(16:43):
Yeah.
Okay.
Which also shows that if that'sall he's letting her in on.
So if he's not letting in to anyprivate and public affairs,
apart from go and flirt withthat guy, you can see how she
would rise to that occasion.
Caroline's relationship diddeteriorate with George and she
(17:04):
ended up leaving the maritalhome in 1835.
but then she actually returned,which she knew she was returning
to an unsafe place when Georgedenied her access to her boys.
So he said if you're leaving,you can't see them.
In March 1836, after yet anotherquarrel, George locked her out
of the house, so it is.
(17:26):
It's bad.
It's really unsafe anddangerous.
Unsafe in a time when you haveso few options if you're her,
it's hard in any time, but in atime where you have no autonomy,
no easy, straightforward path toan earning potential, and you
have children in common and,that's desperately frightening.
(17:48):
Yeah, for sure.
And it's those children that arethe catalyst to so many parts of
the story.
He also sold off herpossessions, so anything he's
doing to punish her, he will.
So this is what, in a moderncontext, we're calling coercive
control, isn't it?
He's using the things that sheloves and values to punish her
or to steer her towards behaviorthat he wants.
(18:13):
Horrific.
Yeah.
And imagine trying to leave inthat situation like it's just To
what?
To where?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
What options?
And then even if you had all theresources of a modern woman,
there are children.
And what then?
Caroline refused to keep out themarriage, so she went back, she
(18:33):
tried, and it just wasn'tworking.
He then put Caroline on trialfor adultery.
Oh.
And at the same time in June1836 he also sued the then Prime
Minister, Lord Melbourne,claiming he had an affair with
Caroline.
So he is just throwingabsolutely everything at this
(18:54):
I'm not sure he comes out ofthat as well as he might have
thought he did.
George wanted to prove his wifeCaroline had committed adultery
because this would be the firststep of obtaining a divorce.
He also wanted To plot the takedown of the wig government.
Lord Melbourne was a wig.
He aligned with these values.
(19:16):
Oh, so this suits his agendaright across the board.
Yeah.
There's a reason he's going fullhog Okay.
Situation.
Yeah.
This is, yeah, it's makingsense.
Okay, great.
So this court case happens wherethey put Caroline on trial.
Do you think the court case wasfair or do you think it was
sexist?
It feels unlikely to be fair.
Just on the face of it.
(19:38):
Shock horror.
So it wasn't.
There's a few things that madeit sexist according to The
Difficult Women, the book that Ifound.
if a husband was denied domesticharmonies and affections he was
entitled under law to basicallyhave access to Caroline's vagina
through a marital contract.
(20:00):
Oh.
So Because she was playing away,it denied him access for
domestic harmony.
Oh my, I don't even know what tosay about this.
So they're talking about this ina court as though they're
negotiating the use of a car.
Yeah, 100%.
Wow.
Yes.
Because you've denied me accessto this vagina, I am going to
(20:22):
ask for, in today's money, 10million pounds worth of damages.
That's some vagina.
Wow.
Okay.
All the lawyers and the judgesand the pamphleters in the trial
were male.
The only women that were in thewhole case were Caroline's
servants and That's because shehad witness he beat me up The
(20:48):
problem with having servants ina trial in those times were that
servants were deemed anunreliable source So the only
women in that trial wereunreliable sources according to
times The lead counsel promisedGeorge that this was to be a
public case to bring downCaroline, so he made it as
public as he could.
(21:09):
So he wanted to humiliate her,he didn't just want, okay, yeah.
And part of the case was thatone of George's servants
testified that Caroline showed aquote unquote thick part of her
thigh when the prime ministerwas sat in a chair on a visit.
So she could have done somethingas simple as adjust her skirt
(21:30):
and suddenly we've got thislittle rat man saying, yes, she
showed her thigh.
That's enough for my 10 millionpounds actually.
Don't look.
Okay.
Yes.
The book Difficult Women listsall these reasons as to why the
case was sexist.
Melbourne obviously wascounteracting this because he's
the Prime Minister, he wants asafe face, he was successful in
(21:52):
his defence, but that didn'tchange the fact that Caroline's
reputation was completelyruined.
She was labelled a scandalouswoman.
She was written about innewspapers and parodied in
cartoons.
And even though The Nortons hadseparated.
Caroline remained under George'sproperty.
(22:14):
All that this suing had done wasmake it harder for Caroline to
divorce George.
She was unable to divorce himbecause she had no legal rights.
The other problem with thissuing and the idea of divorce is
that the existing lawautomatically gave custody of
(22:34):
children to their father.
Automatically.
Oh, wow.
This suing just did nothing tohelp anyone, by the sounds of
it.
Lord Melbourne has come outunscathed.
Caroline was also worried thatGeorge thought that the younger
two children were actually LordMelbourne's and therefore he
would inflict the pain thatwould have been on her because
he used to beat her up so badwould be then inflicted on the
(22:56):
boys.
This is a nightmare.
It's scary.
This is an absolute nightmare.
So at the point she's out of thehouse and George has the
children.
All those motherly instincts andall the things I've spoken about
at the beginning of this podcastare just, she's desperate to
make sure her kids are okay.
She would hang around at St.
(23:16):
James Park, hoping to glimpseher children if they were
travelling somewhere.
She would convince I put inbrackets, probably bribe,
footmen to let her see herchildren, obviously when George
wasn't there.
The summers, George took thekids to Scotland to see his
sister, and Caroline would guesswhich Dock they were sailing
from to go from London toScotland to try and even get a
(23:38):
glimpse of them and to see themfrom afar.
Sometimes, heartbreakingly, shewould get the wrong dock, so she
missed them.
It was all just a guessing game.
And this is all she can do.
This is all that is in her powerto see her children.
At the same time, George and hisfamily, are actively turning the
children against her.
(23:59):
For example, one of the childrenwas beaten for reading a letter
from her mother.
Sometimes the children were evenwhipped.
This is horrific.
Yeah, it's really dark andclassic using children as a
pawn.
These tropes that you hearthrough society, even today,
this is evidence that this washappening and men did this,
(24:21):
george at least did this.
So what did Caroline do?
She used her skills.
She had to make a change.
She's a published writer, weknow that because she
financially supported her familywhen she could.
And we knew that writing was apowerful, persuasive tool of the
time.
It was have you seen in Hamiltonwhere they do the pamphlet song
(24:46):
where they're like, that was theway you got traction and news
back in those times So this islike your social media sharing,
you're like sending these thingsout there.
She was like, I'm going to doit.
Yeah.
I need to tell people aboutthis.
She wrote to her friendcasually.
She's friends with Mary Shelley.
As you do.
Of writer fame.
Yeah.
(25:06):
It's high time, she said in aletter, the law was known to at
least the weaker sex, whichgives us no right to see our own
flesh and blood.
So she was like, women don'tknow that this is what they're
entering into when they enter amarriage.
They don't know what contractthey're signing, Her aim was to
educate the public about.
this law and how it affectsmothers and also persuade MPs to
(25:29):
support the case.
So what she did was she wrotetwo pamphlets.
The first one was published in1837 and it had a very Jazzy
title children as affected bythe common law rights of the
father Which is does what itsays on the tin.
I guess she wants to be takenseriously.
She's putting it in seriousterms Yeah It argued the
(25:53):
pamphlet that all children underthe age of seven should remain
in custody of their mother andthat the decision as to Where
the older children should liveshould be decided by the court
not the father in the case ofmarital breakdown.
She made 500 copies of theseleaflets, pamphlets, and then
she circulated them privately.
(26:13):
So she, she was like cherrypicking, the right people to
read the pamphlets.
Sympathetic people who might bePersuaded or might already hold
sympathetic views at the timepeople said, I don't think this
is a good idea, Caroline.
And when she showed people theirdrafts, people thought that it
was maybe too angry.
She kept that anger in thepamphlet.
(26:34):
And the reason she did that wasbecause she didn't want to sound
weak.
She just wanted to createawareness.
She then published a secondpamphlet, which was more focused
on how children were being usedas weapons in marriage, right?
This one was called theseparation of mother and child
by the law of custodies ofinfants considered, which, such
(26:57):
very jazzy names.
Yeah, Siri, again, Siri's comingin with the kind of dry, non
emotional, but I wonder if she'scounteracting something there
because the assumption is, oh,she's just a woman.
It's going to be too emotional.
(27:18):
And maybe she's deliberatelychoosing these things.
It's a deliberate choice.
I've got a quote here that I canread you.
The father's right is absoluteand paramount and can be no more
affected by the woman's claimthan if she had no existence.
(27:39):
So she's saying the current lawis I might as well not be alive.
Like I might as well not behere.
I think that's such an importantpiece of context, isn't it?
Because it lays it out.
There is literally nomitigation.
There is no allowing for thefact that he might have done
wrong and I might not have.
I simply do not exist in thislegal framework.
(28:02):
Oh, so how depressing.
God.
Yeah.
And then to top it all off, shealso noted that there was like
this double standard.
So if you weren't married, iffor whatever reason you had a
child out of marriage and yourchild, children were quote
unquote bastard children, thatthey are automatically given to
the mother until age seven.
(28:23):
So she was like, I was betteroff not marrying and having
these children outside ofmarriage.
Married men could forcibly seizetheir children even if they,
quote unquote, were infants atthe breast.
So even if you're breastfeedingthe dad can say I'm gonna,
you're mine.
I'm not giving you to the wifeat all.
(28:43):
But if they were unmarried, itwould be completely different.
I wonder here in a way she'sleveraging that against the
system and saying, look, thisI'm not a feminist, this is just
against nature, and, you've hitthe nail on the head entirely,
it's so true.
And it also points out thatthere's no mechanism for
(29:06):
leaving, because you've confinedme to this marriage.
I'm trying to do everything youtell me to do, I'm trying to be
the good woman, but you've madethis in I can't be the mother
that I should be, and I'm tryingto do what you tell me to do,
society.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She used these pamphlets tolobby, and she asked, because
(29:26):
she is well connected, hi,society.
She asked the lawyer and MP,Thomas Telford, to sponsor a
child custody bill throughParliament.
He did do this he was on board,the pamphlets were persuasive
enough for Thomas to get onboard, but the custody bill
failed in Parliament.
So she's trying to fight forthese Laws to be changed and
(29:50):
lobbying really big heavy stuffbut at the same time she's in
this ebb of flow of hoping tosee her children.
It sounds utterly exhausting andGeorge would promise her a visit
or Sometimes even custody giveher all that hope and then He
would withdraw.
He would rip it away Liking himless by the second.
(30:11):
He's awful.
Sometimes he would organize avisit and not even show up.
He sent the kids to boardingschool and didn't tell her.
And all the time these childrenare getting older and older.
They're getting infected withall The stories that are being
told about their mother to them.
While she's fighting for thisbill to go through.
(30:32):
It's heart wrenching.
She continues this struggleuntil finally in 1839 she wrote
a letter to the Lord Chancellor.
on the Infant Custody Bill.
Because of this letter theCustody of the Infants Act was
finally passed.
Oh wow, okay.
By which legally separated anddivorced mothers who had not
(30:54):
been found guilty of adulterywere given custody of children
under seven and granted regularaccess after that.
Oh my gosh, so this is atremendous outcome.
And she could have easily givenup.
She could have walked away.
She would have been exhausted,as you say.
Yeah.
Mate, she changed the law.
That's incredible.
She changed the law.
(31:16):
This law didn't affect heractual home circumstance.
It did not restore Karenai'saccess to her children.
Because the law only applied inEngland, Wales, and Ireland.
And where does George's sisterlive?
Oh, Scotland.
Scotland.
So he took the kids to Scotlandso she could not claim access.
(31:38):
He was determined to punish her.
Yeah.
So the battle continued untilone day when the youngest of the
sons, William, fell off a horseand, whilst they were in
Cattlethorpe Hall, which is alittle fancy hall in Lincoln he
fell off the horse, hurt himselfand he developed tetanus.
(31:59):
By the time the word got toCaroline, she races over to
Lincoln.
And by the time she gets there,the nine year old was in his
coffin.
Oh my god, oh the power ofwoman, oh my god.
Yeah, that's according, thatwording I've kept in, the nine
year old was in his coffin,because it's such a stark word
(32:19):
and I kept it in from the sourcebecause it was so good.
This horrendous loss seemed tosoften George a little bit, and
he allowed Caroline to see herchildren at Christmas.
So he, it softened him a littlebit.
Definitely not what we werehoping for, or what we were
fighting for, but she wasallowed to see her children.
Caroline finally gained sharecustody of her children in 1841.
(32:45):
Lots of negotiation happenedbetween William dying and, 1841,
where, they actually managed toget to an agreement, but it took
one of the children dying to getthere.
Wow.
And that didn't stop Carolinewith her law movements, though.
She kept pushing for law reformthroughout her life, and this
(33:05):
was heavily influenced by herexperience with George.
In March 1852, so like a good 10years after.
George cancelled Caroline'smoney, so allowance, and he
refused to honour hisliabilities for her bills.
So part of marriage back thenwas that you keep your wife, you
(33:27):
have to pay.
And he also because she's apublished writer, right?
He managed to redirect thatmoney from writing into his bank
account.
So not only is he saying no, I'mnot paying for you He's saying
whatever you create yourself.
I want as well.
He was legally entitled to dothat Unless, the only way he
(33:50):
wouldn't be allowed is if therewas a prenup that was agreed,
but there wasn't in this caseall wife's earnings and property
belonged to the husband.
That was law.
That's, wow, okay.
And they're still not divorcedat this point, I think it's
important to say.
Ah, I see, it's still up in theair, so he's got that hold over
her financially, Because if shewas on her own, she'd have no
(34:13):
legal identity.
So Caroline was unable to suehim, or be sued herself
technically raise her owncontracts, receive legacies, or
even make a will.
However, in 1853, she asked hercreditors to sue George on her
behalf.
So she said, you do the suing,but do it on my behalf, which is
a very clever switch around.
(34:34):
Caroline defended herself incourt, she represented herself
and she, because of all the workshe did with the pamphlets and
the lobbying and everythingelse, she was supported in
court, there were cheers of thatin court.
But that doesn't mean the casewas won.
George won the case on atechnicality.
That's unfortunate, given thatshe had that momentum and she
(34:55):
had the charisma and charm of agirl who'd been a debutante.
So she knew how to work a room.
Exactly.
And we said right at thebeginning, she's got wit and
she's got these political valuesand she clearly had skills and
knew how to use them, right?
Because they're in high societyand, I said earlier that the
press absolutely scandalizedCaroline.
(35:16):
Her time in court was alsopicked up by the press as well.
the issues of their marriage, soGeorge and Caroline's marriage,
was written about in papers forweeks.
Caroline used this momentum andbegan to campaign for changes in
the law relating to marriedwomen's property again, she
turns back to her trustypamphlet.
This one is called English lawsfor women in the 19th century,
(35:40):
which I feel is a better title.
I feel we're improving on thetitles as we get through.
Okay.
This one was published in 1854and then she used the power of
her story to persuade.
Parliament and the chosen peopleshe's given these pamphlets to.
She also casually writes toQueen Victoria at the time, and
(36:00):
she explains very eloquently inher letter to Queen Victoria
about what has been going on inher circumstance and this had
direct influence on the Marriageand Divorce Act of 1857.
This Marriage and Divorce Actabolished some of the inequities
to which married women weresubject to.
(36:21):
It contained 68 clauses and fourof those directly came from
Caroline's pamphlets.
So what she wrote in thosepamphlets actually got put into
law.
That is extraordinaryconsidering she's not a
lawmaker.
She's a just a human being who'sgone through this.
Absolutely unfair set ofcircumstances.
(36:44):
It's amazing.
Yeah.
And it made me so happy to belike Di They directly came from
Caroline's capitalist.
These included women's rights toform a contract to receive
maintenance as directed by thecourt to inherit property and to
keep possessions of her ownearnings.
So she is now allowed because ofthis act to keep the earnings
(37:06):
that she made from her writing.
Oh that's wonderful news becauseit's just plain common sense.
It's just fair.
So go Caroline.
It's really important that inthis letter to the Queen, she is
not seeking female equality.
She even wrote the naturalposition of women is inferior to
(37:27):
men.
Amen.
I never pretended to the wildand ridiculous doctrine of
equality.
So she's just saying within amarriage.
women should have rights.
She's not saying those rightsare equal.
She's not saying outside ofmarriage those rights are equal.
She's just saying that the ideaof marriage it doesn't give me
(37:48):
any right.
I'm probably better not beingmarried.
Can I ask you, and this is justpurely speculation.
Yes.
Do you think that she trulybelieved that?
Or do you think that she wasplaying the game?
I hope she was playing the game.
Because it shows a much higherlevel of intelligence.
(38:11):
It's cunning, yeah.
Yeah, but my good feeling is no,I think she did believe that
because she was of her time.
Because she fought her entirelife to change acts and fight
for law changes.
Why would you not therefore forthe law of equality if you're
(38:33):
going to dedicate this much timeto it?
Why would you not go forequality?
That's really interesting.
That's my only reason.
Yeah, I get it.
Because this is a lifelongbattle.
Her youngest was nine when hedied.
This is not just a couple ofyears of, this is her entire
life's work.
And I wonder, therefore ifyou're going to dedicate that
much time to it, you're going tomake sure it's for the thing you
(38:55):
believe in, right?
That makes absolute sense.
Yeah.
But I don't know.
That's just my gut feeling.
It's a shame, but I think it'strue.
Like I said, She just wanted toestablish that women be written
into law.
Basically because at the timethey just hadn't been written in
at all and were denied so manythings.
(39:16):
She just wanted to make surethat women had a place in law,
which is a great starting block,isn't it?
To therefore fight for equality.
And it is very clear that noneof the rights that we had today
would be without Caroline.
and her fight, right?
We know that there's a veryclear linear progression of
women in rights and law.
(39:37):
Because of her right forproperty that she now has,
Caroline secured a lease to 3Chesterfield Street, and wrote a
really lovely letter about hermove that she finally could own
property, and it's described inone of the articles as a wistful
correspondence.
3 Chesterfield Street actuallyhas a blue plaque at the minute
(39:57):
and it marks the house where shelived for over 30 years.
She was never able to divorceGeorge.
it never supported that.
Because Caroline had left Georgeand gone back to him in 1835,
she was never allowed to divorcehim.
However, in 1859, theyeventually agreed like
(40:18):
separation.
So they came to, much like thecustody agreement, they came to
A deed, if you like, of this ishow it's going to work from here
leaving her to live as shewished, so freely, as long as
she was unmarried.
Okay.
So I guess you're George, you'rethinking I no longer get to
(40:39):
garnish her income.
If anything, she couldtheoretically cost me money.
So I'll wave that away, but myego won't withstand her
remarrying.
So those are my terms.
He had his claws in deep.
They were deep and they wouldnot let her go yeah, that is the
story of how Caroline Nortonallowed women to be acknowledged
(41:00):
in Wow, I I'm coming away fromthis with two kind of thoughts
and one of them is that she is akind of case in point that
someone doesn't have to alignwith every single value.
She would have had argumentswith the suffragette women who
(41:23):
came after her with, she wouldhave argued against their
theories, but she stilladvanced.
the overall well being.
She really did for so manywomen.
It's so important to acknowledgethose people who make those
steps, even though they mightnot align with you perfectly,
they still are doing the goodwork.
(41:45):
It's very much how I feel aboutChurchill because Churchill has
done so much for Britishhistory, of course but he stood
against the suffragettes.
He didn't believe in votes forwomen.
And it's always such a tussle,isn't it?
There's some tricky things abouthim with race relation with
women's rights and so on.
(42:06):
And yeah, so you see him laudedas a hero and you think, but you
can't take away from theaccomplishments at the same
time.
Yeah.
I did say I had two thoughts,but the other one seems to have
flown away.
Oh, it's okay.
I've got a little kind offinisher here.
So Caroline's battle was forcedupon her by unfortunate marriage
(42:28):
but she was the catalyst forchange for women in England,
Wales, and Northern Ireland, butwe don't know her.
She's completely written out ofhistory, so it's such an
important story to share.
And it was just a mother's love,that drove it all.
(42:48):
If he hadn't been such anabsolute shithouse, the world
might've been worse.
Which is a terrible burden forher to have carried.
He's definitely the baddie ofthe story.
So I bet he had a mustache thathe would twirl Oh, so quite an
emotional one today.
Sorry about that.
Yes, it was.
Thanks Cara.
(43:10):
Thank you Vicky, I think weshould plan a trip to go see her
blue flak, a little field trip.
Mayfair is in, Mayfair baby.
Oh, yes, out we go.
Yeah, let's go, let's do it,sounds great.
Thank you very much forlistening.
Thank you.
Please like us.
Please rate us.
Please subscribe.
Please share with your friends.
We are She Changed History andwe would love to have your
(43:31):
support.
And we'll see you next time.
Thanks very much.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Okay, shall we go?
Yes, please.
warning this episode doescontain domestic violence.
hi, Cora.
Hi.
How are you?
I am very well, thank you.
And yourself?
I'm good, thank you.
the sun is out.
We're shining.
Spring is here.
Woo.
I think March is one of myfavorite months of the year.
(00:28):
Is it that cusp thing whereyou're like, it's happening,
it's light out after work?
You feel the sun in your faceand you're like, oh, I am human.
Shake off that winter of Restand gloom.
Yes.
I was very bold yesterday and Iwent outside without a coat.
That was, I know, that was a bigdeal.
(00:49):
Like out, like away from thehome.
I went to get my injection, goodstuff.
I did fall over yesterdaythough, oh no.
I was clean.
I was on a chair cleaningcobwebs and I missed my foot in
and I slammed like on the floorand all my right hand side is
now bruised.
And and this happened, yeah,this happened just before the
injection, right?
So I was like, please don'ttouch this arm.
(01:12):
I'm not happy with you standingon a chair.
Nobody should be.
I didn't even think about it,there was no risk assessment,
this is why you need old peoplein your life because I'm here to
tell you don't stand on a chairI love how you think you're old.
That's so funny.
i'm half a century old.
I earned this.
Hey I've been kicking around.
(01:34):
Have you seen those t shirtsthat are about now, Greg Wallace
has done his thing and it'swomen of a certain age versus
the patriarchy.
And I was like, yes.
Yes, ma'am.
Do you want to hear a story?
Yes, please.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Hopefully our listeners will aswell.
Welcome to She Changed History.
We didn't say that at the top.
Hi, come along.
Hello.
Hello.
You got me in Kara today.
(01:54):
and I'm going to share a storywith you about, a very Just
wild, insane story from a lady,called Caroline Norton.
Have you heard of CarolineNorton before?
No, it's not a name that I knew.
Alright, let's go on and write.
got a little intro for you, Herchildren, her life, ripped away.
Promises whispered, thenbrutally broken.
(02:15):
This is the story of a mother'sdesperate fight to see her
children.
A fight against a husband,against a system, against the
very laws that stole her sons.
And in one case to never be seenagain.
Prepare to witness the heartwrenching struggle of Caroline
Norton and how she used thistorment to reform divorce law
(02:35):
for all of England's women.
Wow.
Oh my God that's heavy.
So sources today, I found thisstory in a.
an amazing book called DifficultWomen by Helen Lewis.
a BBC article on CarolineNorton, a Britannica article,
which we love using Britannicahere.
actually an open universityarticle.
(02:56):
and I actually know the lecturerwho wrote it, which is really
cool.
englishheritage.
org.
and a few other ones.
To learn about some of thecontext.
We are in Victorian England.
Suffragette movement is oftenseen as like the pioneering
turning point for femalestruggle, basically.
(03:17):
But The generation before thatactually had done a lot of the
campaigning Women's rights wereactually fought long before the
suffragettes and that's nottaken away from anything the
suffragettes did.
It's just really interestingthis whole foundational period
that we don't really talk about.
So we're going to be in highsociety because that makes sense
(03:37):
that, women in high society aremore likely to be in rooms where
they can change the law SoCaroline Sheridan was her.
Maiden name.
She was born in London on the22nd of March 1808 she, it turns
out she's actually thegranddaughter of a famous
playwright called RichardBrinson Sheridan.
Actually her father died whenshe was quite young, so eight
(03:59):
years old.
That's not uncommon for ourstories.
There tends to be a loss of aparent quite early on sometimes,
because what that often leads tois serious financial problems.
Her father, he died quite young.
He left, get this, four sons andthree daughters.
No savings and a modest pension.
(04:21):
Oh my days.
Oh okay.
In high society.
He thought I'll be around toprovide for everybody and then
one reason or another heVanishes.
And suddenly there's this familyto seven children.
I just seven children made that.
Ooh, mother.
Oh my gosh.
Exactly.
So the widow of Richard wasquite lucky because she was
(04:43):
offered grace and favor whichcame in the forms of an
apartment in Hampton court.
So she got lodged in Hamptoncourt because the grandfather
because this playwright was sowell known and respected in
society.
She actually got lucky, I think,it's not like she had many
options, yes, write up Schitt'sCreek let's be quite honest,
(05:04):
seven is a lot of mouths tofeed.
For sure.
Caroline then grew up, so shewas in her teens, she enjoys
writing.
She wrote a couple of novels andpoetry and these were well
respected within society.
Some of them actually called herthe female Byron.
So she was very, it was goodwhat she was producing, which is
(05:24):
great.
Caroline herself is known to bequick witted, vivacious, and an
artan of the wig.
Do you know what the wigs are?
All I know is that it's spelledW H I G.
So we're not talking about aheadwear.
We're not talking about that.
Beyond that, not a clue.
(05:46):
A whole part of history that Ididn't know about, The Wigs, the
name Wigs was derived from theEnglish anti monarchist and
opposed Catholic emancipationparty in the UK but it actually
was founded in the USA.
It was a USA party between the,I don't know though, because I
(06:07):
don't think they really achievedmuch.
Between the 1680s and the 1850s,the Whigs contested power with
their rivals who in that timewere the Tories.
Over time, the Whigs became theLiberal Party.
And they merged with partieslike the Radicals in the 1850s.
So the Whigs joined these othersand the Liberal Party was
(06:28):
formed.
But at that time, which was1886, many Whigs left the
Liberal Party over the issue ofIrish Home Rule.
So that's how the LiberalUnionist Party started.
Eventually, they were swallowedup by the Conservative Party in
1912.
So it's a really brief part ofhistory.
(06:51):
Where there was this anti Torysubculture kind of forming.
I'm hearing between that andthese women taking their
foundational steps, it soundslike a time when there was an
established norm and maybe noreal organized movements to
speak of yet.
And these are the peoplelighting the touch paper.
(07:14):
And this is where you start togain momentum to resist these
established, maybe unfairstructural norms.
Yeah.
I'm going into the wigs a smallbit just there because it's
really important later on.
And I think because of whatyou're saying, it's because
they're seen as this unorganizedleft wing unfounded values, but
(07:35):
it's really interesting.
They do form into the liberalunionist party, which then forms
into the conservative party astime goes on.
Yeah.
But just keeping in mind thatwigs are anti monarchist and
opposed Catholic emancipation.
As with all high societies whenthe girls are old enough, they
get entered into polite societyin London.
(07:55):
So we're thinking debutanteballs, we're thinking very
Bridgerton vibes, the ton, thatkind of thing.
because there were threesisters, they were known very
well within society as the threegraces.
And because of that, there wasquite a lot of pressure for them
to marry off as well.
So it was almost like thesisters were almost in
(08:16):
competition with each other alittle bit because the mum was
desperate for the dowry so shecould secure their future and,
yeah.
So there was a lot of pressureon these poor girls when they're
entering society.
So Helen, who is the eldestdaughter, she's, there's a quote
here that Georgie, Georgina, isthe beauty, Carrie, Caroline's
(08:37):
the wit, and I, Helen, ought tobe the good one, but I am not.
So she found that she wasstruggling, I think, with this
pressure of society.
These three women I think it'sfair to say they're well
educated and you can see thatthroughout Caroline's story,
caroline wasn't a feminist.
(08:58):
She didn't believe in equalityfor women.
She was spoken about womenshould know their place, which
is a kind of grating point onwhat we're going to talk about.
So just have that in the back ofyour mind as well.
So like I said, with lots ofchildren and not many resources,
it was really important that thethree girls marry and they marry
well.
By convention it was the eldestsister must be married first.
(09:21):
So that's how it should roll insociety.
And Georgina was the youngestbut she was also the most
beautiful.
Like we said in Helen's quote.
I think Caroline and Helen,therefore felt a lot of pressure
to get married first becausethey knew that everyone was
going to be chasing Georgina.
Basically, they almost wanted tolike, just clear the runway so
(09:41):
that also that I must, I thinkthat was me in that situation.
I would have been so jealous.
Yeah, it must have beenincredibly difficult for them
because presumably they probablyreally loved each other, but
then there's that pressure thatalmost pits them against one
another.
That's terrible.
Which you don't see inBridgerton.
(10:02):
There's not that vibe inBridgerton because obviously
there's lots of children.
in the Bridgerton family butactually the competition between
the children is something Ihaven't seen in that series
anyway, so that's reallyinteresting that this dynamic
must have been there, like itmust have been in my society at
the time but isn't shown inpopular culture.
So everyone's focused onGeorgina because she's the
(10:23):
prettiest.
Caroline herself was quitepopular, but she was mostly
popular with older men becausethey appreciated her wit.
She was known to use sarcasm andthe younger men didn't really
know how to handle this, so theywere less interested in her.
Bless them.
Yeah she met lots of people inthe London season but Only
George Norton came forward.
(10:45):
He was the called the HonourableGeorge Norton.
He was brother of Lord Grantley.
So he was quite high standingand he proposed marriage.
So this is the only optionCaroline has got.
And she's got this pressure,like you say, to clear the
runway for Georgina.
The family didn't, the Sheridansdidn't know much about him
beyond the fact that he was wellconnected because of his brother
(11:07):
in law Grantley.
And therefore his income wasvouched for.
He was a safe pair of hands, itsounds like a business
transaction rather than any kindof romance or it's just very
practical.
How can we, merge these twofamilies and keep everyone
moving forward.
And again, I keep harping toBridgerton because it's in the
popular culture and people willhopefully understand it.
(11:29):
There's a family in theBridgertons called the
Featheringtons who are much morefocused on business.
They're much more focused ontrying to get the best for their
family through means.
Okay.
And that's because their fatherdied, so their financial
resources are a bit shaky.
And so I can totally get where.
(11:51):
The girl's mum is coming frombecause that's Lady Farrington,
basically, doesn't mean it's agood thing.
It just means it's a sign of thetimes and she's working in the
society they're living in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
Perfect.
George Norton was trained as abarrister, but he didn't
practice.
He and his family were strongTories whilst the Sheridans were
more aligned to this Whig partyand were seen as radicals.
(12:15):
It sounds like Caroline didn'taccept the marriage straight
away.
She tried to go another seasonbecause her younger sister Was
coming up basically, so she waslike, okay, she had a little
time.
He had a little time.
But it didn't Make anydifference and Caroline later
made her decision to marryGeorge Norton on the 30th of
June 1827 in Hanover Square.
(12:38):
She was 19 at the time.
So baby and he was 26.
So there's a slight age gapGeorge Norton became an MP for
Guildford which is like SouthLondon and Caroline knew that
something wasn't right.
cause she waited that year, shewas trying to look at the field
(13:00):
and I think she knew becausetheir political opinions are so
different.
I think she had an underlyingcurrent that something wasn't
right.
So eventually she concededbecause she wanted the well
being of her family to be takencare of, basically.
So it was a decision she madefor the family, not for herself.
In all the articles I've read,it's called an unfortunate
(13:20):
marriage.
Which I don't know if that'slike a term of the time, but it
was in most articles anunfortunate marriage.
All I can deduce is that it wasa marriage that was doomed from
the start.
Okay, so it's not a good match.
Yeah, exactly.
Norton didn't like Caroline'scleverness or wit.
I think he saw it as a threat hewould discuss None of like
(13:45):
political or public or privateaffairs with her.
He just did cut her out of allthose like decisions completely
Like I said, the politicalsources were a source of
friction And also he didn't likehow close she was with her
family.
Huge red flag.
He didn't like her going to seethem And because they encouraged
(14:07):
this radical political stancewithin her.
He was like, Oh my God, dude,marry someone else.
You knew.
Within a few months of theirmarriage, George started to
drink excessively and heresorted to physical violence in
some disputes.
Sometimes these.
Physical violence attacks, Iwill be calling them was so bad
(14:31):
that the servants had to step inand intervene.
And if we know anything aboutservants from that period, it is
that you are seen and not heard.
You are not meant to step in.
yeah, so it must have been sobad for the to feel like they
have to.
A lot of their arguments werebased around lack of money.
Their financial pressuresincreased with the three sons
(14:54):
that they had.
So they had a boy calledFletcher, a boy called Brinsley,
and the youngest was a boycalled William.
Their financial situation was sobad it got to the point where
Caroline was forced to supportthe family with her writing.
So she'd published a couple ofbooks and they were well
received.
Like I said earlier, she wasreally talented in this area.
She even had an appointment aseditor of a magazine, two
(15:18):
magazines, one's called La BelleAssemblée and one's called Court
Magazine.
With these appointments andpublications came the idea that
she could have money.
She could earn her own money andthat independence crept in,
which I imagine aligns reallynicely to this radical political
(15:39):
stance she's been brought upwith.
And the fact that she has valueit's.
Financial, but also bringingsomething to society when he's
trying to box her away and shuther down.
So the circumstances let her beher for sure.
With this independence and thisreally deteriorating marriage
(16:00):
is.
And this is important to notefor the story, it's more than
likely that she had an affairwith the current Home Secretary
at the time and later PrimeMinister Lord Melbourne.
There was gossip around the HighCourt that surrounded Caroline
and this.
understandably humiliatedGeorge.
You're an MP and your wife'splaying away with the big dog.
(16:22):
Oh, that's, oh.
Yeah, yeah that's icky.
Although it is noted that heinitially encouraged this
relationship for political gain.
So he saw it as like a.
And like flirt, butter him up alittle bit and she went, okay,
all right.
If you want me to, Georgie.
I understand the assignment.
(16:43):
Yeah.
Okay.
Which also shows that if that'sall he's letting her in on.
So if he's not letting in to anyprivate and public affairs,
apart from go and flirt withthat guy, you can see how she
would rise to that occasion.
Caroline's relationship diddeteriorate with George and she
(17:04):
ended up leaving the maritalhome in 1835.
but then she actually returned,which she knew she was returning
to an unsafe place when Georgedenied her access to her boys.
So he said if you're leaving,you can't see them.
In March 1836, after yet anotherquarrel, George locked her out
of the house, so it is.
(17:26):
It's bad.
It's really unsafe anddangerous.
Unsafe in a time when you haveso few options if you're her,
it's hard in any time, but in atime where you have no autonomy,
no easy, straightforward path toan earning potential, and you
have children in common and,that's desperately frightening.
(17:48):
Yeah, for sure.
And it's those children that arethe catalyst to so many parts of
the story.
He also sold off herpossessions, so anything he's
doing to punish her, he will.
So this is what, in a moderncontext, we're calling coercive
control, isn't it?
He's using the things that sheloves and values to punish her
or to steer her towards behaviorthat he wants.
(18:13):
Horrific.
Yeah.
And imagine trying to leave inthat situation like it's just To
what?
To where?
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
What options?
And then even if you had all theresources of a modern woman,
there are children.
And what then?
Caroline refused to keep out themarriage, so she went back, she
(18:33):
tried, and it just wasn'tworking.
He then put Caroline on trialfor adultery.
Oh.
And at the same time in June1836 he also sued the then Prime
Minister, Lord Melbourne,claiming he had an affair with
Caroline.
So he is just throwingabsolutely everything at this
(18:54):
I'm not sure he comes out ofthat as well as he might have
thought he did.
George wanted to prove his wifeCaroline had committed adultery
because this would be the firststep of obtaining a divorce.
He also wanted To plot the takedown of the wig government.
Lord Melbourne was a wig.
He aligned with these values.
(19:16):
Oh, so this suits his agendaright across the board.
Yeah.
There's a reason he's going fullhog Okay.
Situation.
Yeah.
This is, yeah, it's makingsense.
Okay, great.
So this court case happens wherethey put Caroline on trial.
Do you think the court case wasfair or do you think it was
sexist?
It feels unlikely to be fair.
Just on the face of it.
(19:38):
Shock horror.
So it wasn't.
There's a few things that madeit sexist according to The
Difficult Women, the book that Ifound.
if a husband was denied domesticharmonies and affections he was
entitled under law to basicallyhave access to Caroline's vagina
through a marital contract.
(20:00):
Oh.
So Because she was playing away,it denied him access for
domestic harmony.
Oh my, I don't even know what tosay about this.
So they're talking about this ina court as though they're
negotiating the use of a car.
Yeah, 100%.
Wow.
Yes.
Because you've denied me accessto this vagina, I am going to
(20:22):
ask for, in today's money, 10million pounds worth of damages.
That's some vagina.
Wow.
Okay.
All the lawyers and the judgesand the pamphleters in the trial
were male.
The only women that were in thewhole case were Caroline's
servants and That's because shehad witness he beat me up The
(20:48):
problem with having servants ina trial in those times were that
servants were deemed anunreliable source So the only
women in that trial wereunreliable sources according to
times The lead counsel promisedGeorge that this was to be a
public case to bring downCaroline, so he made it as
public as he could.
(21:09):
So he wanted to humiliate her,he didn't just want, okay, yeah.
And part of the case was thatone of George's servants
testified that Caroline showed aquote unquote thick part of her
thigh when the prime ministerwas sat in a chair on a visit.
So she could have done somethingas simple as adjust her skirt
(21:30):
and suddenly we've got thislittle rat man saying, yes, she
showed her thigh.
That's enough for my 10 millionpounds actually.
Don't look.
Okay.
Yes.
The book Difficult Women listsall these reasons as to why the
case was sexist.
Melbourne obviously wascounteracting this because he's
the Prime Minister, he wants asafe face, he was successful in
(21:52):
his defence, but that didn'tchange the fact that Caroline's
reputation was completelyruined.
She was labelled a scandalouswoman.
She was written about innewspapers and parodied in
cartoons.
And even though The Nortons hadseparated.
Caroline remained under George'sproperty.
(22:14):
All that this suing had done wasmake it harder for Caroline to
divorce George.
She was unable to divorce himbecause she had no legal rights.
The other problem with thissuing and the idea of divorce is
that the existing lawautomatically gave custody of
(22:34):
children to their father.
Automatically.
Oh, wow.
This suing just did nothing tohelp anyone, by the sounds of
it.
Lord Melbourne has come outunscathed.
Caroline was also worried thatGeorge thought that the younger
two children were actually LordMelbourne's and therefore he
would inflict the pain thatwould have been on her because
he used to beat her up so badwould be then inflicted on the
(22:56):
boys.
This is a nightmare.
It's scary.
This is an absolute nightmare.
So at the point she's out of thehouse and George has the
children.
All those motherly instincts andall the things I've spoken about
at the beginning of this podcastare just, she's desperate to
make sure her kids are okay.
She would hang around at St.
(23:16):
James Park, hoping to glimpseher children if they were
travelling somewhere.
She would convince I put inbrackets, probably bribe,
footmen to let her see herchildren, obviously when George
wasn't there.
The summers, George took thekids to Scotland to see his
sister, and Caroline would guesswhich Dock they were sailing
from to go from London toScotland to try and even get a
(23:38):
glimpse of them and to see themfrom afar.
Sometimes, heartbreakingly, shewould get the wrong dock, so she
missed them.
It was all just a guessing game.
And this is all she can do.
This is all that is in her powerto see her children.
At the same time, George and hisfamily, are actively turning the
children against her.
(23:59):
For example, one of the childrenwas beaten for reading a letter
from her mother.
Sometimes the children were evenwhipped.
This is horrific.
Yeah, it's really dark andclassic using children as a
pawn.
These tropes that you hearthrough society, even today,
this is evidence that this washappening and men did this,
(24:21):
george at least did this.
So what did Caroline do?
She used her skills.
She had to make a change.
She's a published writer, weknow that because she
financially supported her familywhen she could.
And we knew that writing was apowerful, persuasive tool of the
time.
It was have you seen in Hamiltonwhere they do the pamphlet song
(24:46):
where they're like, that was theway you got traction and news
back in those times So this islike your social media sharing,
you're like sending these thingsout there.
She was like, I'm going to doit.
Yeah.
I need to tell people aboutthis.
She wrote to her friendcasually.
She's friends with Mary Shelley.
As you do.
Of writer fame.
Yeah.
(25:06):
It's high time, she said in aletter, the law was known to at
least the weaker sex, whichgives us no right to see our own
flesh and blood.
So she was like, women don'tknow that this is what they're
entering into when they enter amarriage.
They don't know what contractthey're signing, Her aim was to
educate the public about.
this law and how it affectsmothers and also persuade MPs to
(25:29):
support the case.
So what she did was she wrotetwo pamphlets.
The first one was published in1837 and it had a very Jazzy
title children as affected bythe common law rights of the
father Which is does what itsays on the tin.
I guess she wants to be takenseriously.
She's putting it in seriousterms Yeah It argued the
(25:53):
pamphlet that all children underthe age of seven should remain
in custody of their mother andthat the decision as to Where
the older children should liveshould be decided by the court
not the father in the case ofmarital breakdown.
She made 500 copies of theseleaflets, pamphlets, and then
she circulated them privately.
(26:13):
So she, she was like cherrypicking, the right people to
read the pamphlets.
Sympathetic people who might bePersuaded or might already hold
sympathetic views at the timepeople said, I don't think this
is a good idea, Caroline.
And when she showed people theirdrafts, people thought that it
was maybe too angry.
She kept that anger in thepamphlet.
(26:34):
And the reason she did that wasbecause she didn't want to sound
weak.
She just wanted to createawareness.
She then published a secondpamphlet, which was more focused
on how children were being usedas weapons in marriage, right?
This one was called theseparation of mother and child
by the law of custodies ofinfants considered, which, such
(26:57):
very jazzy names.
Yeah, Siri, again, Siri's comingin with the kind of dry, non
emotional, but I wonder if she'scounteracting something there
because the assumption is, oh,she's just a woman.
It's going to be too emotional.
(27:18):
And maybe she's deliberatelychoosing these things.
It's a deliberate choice.
I've got a quote here that I canread you.
The father's right is absoluteand paramount and can be no more
affected by the woman's claimthan if she had no existence.
(27:39):
So she's saying the current lawis I might as well not be alive.
Like I might as well not behere.
I think that's such an importantpiece of context, isn't it?
Because it lays it out.
There is literally nomitigation.
There is no allowing for thefact that he might have done
wrong and I might not have.
I simply do not exist in thislegal framework.
(28:02):
Oh, so how depressing.
God.
Yeah.
And then to top it all off, shealso noted that there was like
this double standard.
So if you weren't married, iffor whatever reason you had a
child out of marriage and yourchild, children were quote
unquote bastard children, thatthey are automatically given to
the mother until age seven.
(28:23):
So she was like, I was betteroff not marrying and having
these children outside ofmarriage.
Married men could forcibly seizetheir children even if they,
quote unquote, were infants atthe breast.
So even if you're breastfeedingthe dad can say I'm gonna,
you're mine.
I'm not giving you to the wifeat all.
(28:43):
But if they were unmarried, itwould be completely different.
I wonder here in a way she'sleveraging that against the
system and saying, look, thisI'm not a feminist, this is just
against nature, and, you've hitthe nail on the head entirely,
it's so true.
And it also points out thatthere's no mechanism for
(29:06):
leaving, because you've confinedme to this marriage.
I'm trying to do everything youtell me to do, I'm trying to be
the good woman, but you've madethis in I can't be the mother
that I should be, and I'm tryingto do what you tell me to do,
society.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She used these pamphlets tolobby, and she asked, because
(29:26):
she is well connected, hi,society.
She asked the lawyer and MP,Thomas Telford, to sponsor a
child custody bill throughParliament.
He did do this he was on board,the pamphlets were persuasive
enough for Thomas to get onboard, but the custody bill
failed in Parliament.
So she's trying to fight forthese Laws to be changed and
(29:50):
lobbying really big heavy stuffbut at the same time she's in
this ebb of flow of hoping tosee her children.
It sounds utterly exhausting andGeorge would promise her a visit
or Sometimes even custody giveher all that hope and then He
would withdraw.
He would rip it away Liking himless by the second.
(30:11):
He's awful.
Sometimes he would organize avisit and not even show up.
He sent the kids to boardingschool and didn't tell her.
And all the time these childrenare getting older and older.
They're getting infected withall The stories that are being
told about their mother to them.
While she's fighting for thisbill to go through.
(30:32):
It's heart wrenching.
She continues this struggleuntil finally in 1839 she wrote
a letter to the Lord Chancellor.
on the Infant Custody Bill.
Because of this letter theCustody of the Infants Act was
finally passed.
Oh wow, okay.
By which legally separated anddivorced mothers who had not
(30:54):
been found guilty of adulterywere given custody of children
under seven and granted regularaccess after that.
Oh my gosh, so this is atremendous outcome.
And she could have easily givenup.
She could have walked away.
She would have been exhausted,as you say.
Yeah.
Mate, she changed the law.
That's incredible.
She changed the law.
(31:16):
This law didn't affect heractual home circumstance.
It did not restore Karenai'saccess to her children.
Because the law only applied inEngland, Wales, and Ireland.
And where does George's sisterlive?
Oh, Scotland.
Scotland.
So he took the kids to Scotlandso she could not claim access.
(31:38):
He was determined to punish her.
Yeah.
So the battle continued untilone day when the youngest of the
sons, William, fell off a horseand, whilst they were in
Cattlethorpe Hall, which is alittle fancy hall in Lincoln he
fell off the horse, hurt himselfand he developed tetanus.
(31:59):
By the time the word got toCaroline, she races over to
Lincoln.
And by the time she gets there,the nine year old was in his
coffin.
Oh my god, oh the power ofwoman, oh my god.
Yeah, that's according, thatwording I've kept in, the nine
year old was in his coffin,because it's such a stark word
(32:19):
and I kept it in from the sourcebecause it was so good.
This horrendous loss seemed tosoften George a little bit, and
he allowed Caroline to see herchildren at Christmas.
So he, it softened him a littlebit.
Definitely not what we werehoping for, or what we were
fighting for, but she wasallowed to see her children.
Caroline finally gained sharecustody of her children in 1841.
(32:45):
Lots of negotiation happenedbetween William dying and, 1841,
where, they actually managed toget to an agreement, but it took
one of the children dying to getthere.
Wow.
And that didn't stop Carolinewith her law movements, though.
She kept pushing for law reformthroughout her life, and this
(33:05):
was heavily influenced by herexperience with George.
In March 1852, so like a good 10years after.
George cancelled Caroline'smoney, so allowance, and he
refused to honour hisliabilities for her bills.
So part of marriage back thenwas that you keep your wife, you
(33:27):
have to pay.
And he also because she's apublished writer, right?
He managed to redirect thatmoney from writing into his bank
account.
So not only is he saying no, I'mnot paying for you He's saying
whatever you create yourself.
I want as well.
He was legally entitled to dothat Unless, the only way he
(33:50):
wouldn't be allowed is if therewas a prenup that was agreed,
but there wasn't in this caseall wife's earnings and property
belonged to the husband.
That was law.
That's, wow, okay.
And they're still not divorcedat this point, I think it's
important to say.
Ah, I see, it's still up in theair, so he's got that hold over
her financially, Because if shewas on her own, she'd have no
(34:13):
legal identity.
So Caroline was unable to suehim, or be sued herself
technically raise her owncontracts, receive legacies, or
even make a will.
However, in 1853, she asked hercreditors to sue George on her
behalf.
So she said, you do the suing,but do it on my behalf, which is
a very clever switch around.
(34:34):
Caroline defended herself incourt, she represented herself
and she, because of all the workshe did with the pamphlets and
the lobbying and everythingelse, she was supported in
court, there were cheers of thatin court.
But that doesn't mean the casewas won.
George won the case on atechnicality.
That's unfortunate, given thatshe had that momentum and she
(34:55):
had the charisma and charm of agirl who'd been a debutante.
So she knew how to work a room.
Exactly.
And we said right at thebeginning, she's got wit and
she's got these political valuesand she clearly had skills and
knew how to use them, right?
Because they're in high societyand, I said earlier that the
press absolutely scandalizedCaroline.
(35:16):
Her time in court was alsopicked up by the press as well.
the issues of their marriage, soGeorge and Caroline's marriage,
was written about in papers forweeks.
Caroline used this momentum andbegan to campaign for changes in
the law relating to marriedwomen's property again, she
turns back to her trustypamphlet.
This one is called English lawsfor women in the 19th century,
(35:40):
which I feel is a better title.
I feel we're improving on thetitles as we get through.
Okay.
This one was published in 1854and then she used the power of
her story to persuade.
Parliament and the chosen peopleshe's given these pamphlets to.
She also casually writes toQueen Victoria at the time, and
(36:00):
she explains very eloquently inher letter to Queen Victoria
about what has been going on inher circumstance and this had
direct influence on the Marriageand Divorce Act of 1857.
This Marriage and Divorce Actabolished some of the inequities
to which married women weresubject to.
(36:21):
It contained 68 clauses and fourof those directly came from
Caroline's pamphlets.
So what she wrote in thosepamphlets actually got put into
law.
That is extraordinaryconsidering she's not a
lawmaker.
She's a just a human being who'sgone through this.
Absolutely unfair set ofcircumstances.
(36:44):
It's amazing.
Yeah.
And it made me so happy to belike Di They directly came from
Caroline's capitalist.
These included women's rights toform a contract to receive
maintenance as directed by thecourt to inherit property and to
keep possessions of her ownearnings.
So she is now allowed because ofthis act to keep the earnings
(37:06):
that she made from her writing.
Oh that's wonderful news becauseit's just plain common sense.
It's just fair.
So go Caroline.
It's really important that inthis letter to the Queen, she is
not seeking female equality.
She even wrote the naturalposition of women is inferior to
(37:27):
men.
Amen.
I never pretended to the wildand ridiculous doctrine of
equality.
So she's just saying within amarriage.
women should have rights.
She's not saying those rightsare equal.
She's not saying outside ofmarriage those rights are equal.
She's just saying that the ideaof marriage it doesn't give me
(37:48):
any right.
I'm probably better not beingmarried.
Can I ask you, and this is justpurely speculation.
Yes.
Do you think that she trulybelieved that?
Or do you think that she wasplaying the game?
I hope she was playing the game.
Because it shows a much higherlevel of intelligence.
(38:11):
It's cunning, yeah.
Yeah, but my good feeling is no,I think she did believe that
because she was of her time.
Because she fought her entirelife to change acts and fight
for law changes.
Why would you not therefore forthe law of equality if you're
(38:33):
going to dedicate this much timeto it?
Why would you not go forequality?
That's really interesting.
That's my only reason.
Yeah, I get it.
Because this is a lifelongbattle.
Her youngest was nine when hedied.
This is not just a couple ofyears of, this is her entire
life's work.
And I wonder, therefore ifyou're going to dedicate that
much time to it, you're going tomake sure it's for the thing you
(38:55):
believe in, right?
That makes absolute sense.
Yeah.
But I don't know.
That's just my gut feeling.
It's a shame, but I think it'strue.
Like I said, She just wanted toestablish that women be written
into law.
Basically because at the timethey just hadn't been written in
at all and were denied so manythings.
(39:16):
She just wanted to make surethat women had a place in law,
which is a great starting block,isn't it?
To therefore fight for equality.
And it is very clear that noneof the rights that we had today
would be without Caroline.
and her fight, right?
We know that there's a veryclear linear progression of
women in rights and law.
(39:37):
Because of her right forproperty that she now has,
Caroline secured a lease to 3Chesterfield Street, and wrote a
really lovely letter about hermove that she finally could own
property, and it's described inone of the articles as a wistful
correspondence.
3 Chesterfield Street actuallyhas a blue plaque at the minute
(39:57):
and it marks the house where shelived for over 30 years.
She was never able to divorceGeorge.
it never supported that.
Because Caroline had left Georgeand gone back to him in 1835,
she was never allowed to divorcehim.
However, in 1859, theyeventually agreed like
(40:18):
separation.
So they came to, much like thecustody agreement, they came to
A deed, if you like, of this ishow it's going to work from here
leaving her to live as shewished, so freely, as long as
she was unmarried.
Okay.
So I guess you're George, you'rethinking I no longer get to
(40:39):
garnish her income.
If anything, she couldtheoretically cost me money.
So I'll wave that away, but myego won't withstand her
remarrying.
So those are my terms.
He had his claws in deep.
They were deep and they wouldnot let her go yeah, that is the
story of how Caroline Nortonallowed women to be acknowledged
(41:00):
in Wow, I I'm coming away fromthis with two kind of thoughts
and one of them is that she is akind of case in point that
someone doesn't have to alignwith every single value.
She would have had argumentswith the suffragette women who
(41:23):
came after her with, she wouldhave argued against their
theories, but she stilladvanced.
the overall well being.
She really did for so manywomen.
It's so important to acknowledgethose people who make those
steps, even though they mightnot align with you perfectly,
they still are doing the goodwork.
(41:45):
It's very much how I feel aboutChurchill because Churchill has
done so much for Britishhistory, of course but he stood
against the suffragettes.
He didn't believe in votes forwomen.
And it's always such a tussle,isn't it?
There's some tricky things abouthim with race relation with
women's rights and so on.
(42:06):
And yeah, so you see him laudedas a hero and you think, but you
can't take away from theaccomplishments at the same
time.
Yeah.
I did say I had two thoughts,but the other one seems to have
flown away.
Oh, it's okay.
I've got a little kind offinisher here.
So Caroline's battle was forcedupon her by unfortunate marriage
(42:28):
but she was the catalyst forchange for women in England,
Wales, and Northern Ireland, butwe don't know her.
She's completely written out ofhistory, so it's such an
important story to share.
And it was just a mother's love,that drove it all.
(42:48):
If he hadn't been such anabsolute shithouse, the world
might've been worse.
Which is a terrible burden forher to have carried.
He's definitely the baddie ofthe story.
So I bet he had a mustache thathe would twirl Oh, so quite an
emotional one today.
Sorry about that.
Yes, it was.
Thanks Cara.
(43:10):
Thank you Vicky, I think weshould plan a trip to go see her
blue flak, a little field trip.
Mayfair is in, Mayfair baby.
Oh, yes, out we go.
Yeah, let's go, let's do it,sounds great.
Thank you very much forlistening.
Thank you.
Please like us.
Please rate us.
Please subscribe.
Please share with your friends.
We are She Changed History andwe would love to have your
(43:31):
support.
And we'll see you next time.
Thanks very much.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com