March 25, 2025 • 38 mins
The Intriguing Legacy of Dr. James Barry: Medicine, Identity, and History
This episode introduces the compelling story of Dr. James Barry, a pioneering medical professional in British history whose gender identity remains a topic of speculation. Born Margaret Ann Bulkley in 1795 in Cork, Ireland, Barry pursued a successful medical career by presenting as a man, despite women being barred from such roles at the time. Known for performing one of the first successful cesarean sections and campaigning tirelessly for better sanitation and medical care in army barracks and prisons, Barry's legacy is marked by their professional accomplishments and enigmatic life. The episode touches on the nuances of Barry's gender identity, the challenges faced, and their ultimate impact on the medical field and society.
Other episodes mentioned:
17. Elizabeth Garret Anderson
11. Empress Matilda
10. Lise Meitner
Sources:
The National Archives
A biography by Rachel Holmes called Scanty Particulars: The Life of Dr
James Barry
The London Guides blog article about museums and galleries of London
The University of Edinburgh alumni website
The biography Dr James Barry: A Woman Ahead of Her Time by Dr
Michael du Preez and Jeremy Dronfield
The Wellcome collection’s copies of documents from the Public Records
Office
00:00 Introduction to the F1 Craze
00:39 Welcoming Cara and Vicky
01:05 Introducing Dr. James Barry
03:31 Barry's Early Life and Education
08:00 Barry's Medical Training and Challenges
15:23 Barry's Career and Gender Identity
18:39 Margaret's Letter and Career Beginnings
19:19 Cape Town Deployment and Early Achievements
20:11 Barry's Medical Milestones
21:02 Campaigns for Sanitation and Overcrowding
21:24 Pub Trivia and Personal Anecdotes
23:00 Barry's Temperament and Duels
24:03 Conflicts with Florence Nightingale
26:09 Barry's Global Impact and Promotions
28:45 Retirement and Death
30:13 Posthumous Speculations and Legacy
34:32 Reflections on Gender and Identity
38:04 Closing Remarks and Acknowledgements
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1084464312 (00:08):
They're all into it.
We're, we all have been swept upin the Netflix drive to survive.
Uh, amazing F1 wave.
Yeah, so we are held in completecontempt by real fans, but hey,
I'm having a good time.
This will probably be the onlyrace of the year I get up at
this kind of time for, but itwas just because it was the
(00:29):
first one I was all in and thenthe race was insane.
Are you ready to, you ready torock?
Shall we go?
Shall we?
Yeah.
Hi Kara.
Okay.
Hi Vicki.
How are you?
I'm very well, thank you.
And excited to talk to you aboutsomebody who is so interesting
and.
Quite a mysterious character intheir way.
(00:52):
Oh my gosh.
I'm so ready.
Well welcome everyone to, shechanged history, the lovely
Carra is with us today and she'sgot a fabulous story to tell us.
Alright, off you go.
Let's hit it.
Okay.
So in the coming weeks as we'rerecording this, the world will
be observing Transgender Day ofVisibility, which falls on March
(01:14):
the 31st each year.
So that felt like a really goodtime to talk about a figure from
British history called Dr.
Barry, whose gender presentationwas something private,
obviously, but also became atopic of public speculation and
was a key to their careerbecause of the time in which
(01:36):
they lived.
Mm-hmm.
I wanted to start with a sort ofa broad disclaimer and say this
is a nuanced story and a nuancedtopic, and I, I, I always want
to, and we'll try to here, stickto the facts, not make
assumptions.
Um, I'm, I've been as careful asit could be about the language,
(01:58):
so I'll be using they instead ofhe or she, because there is
ambiguity about how Barrythought of their own gender
identity and some of thehistorical sources use wording
that would now be consideredinappropriate or outmoded.
And I use those words advisedlyand in context, but.
(02:21):
Sure I am, I'm open to feedback.
I am no expert.
So at me if you wanna, I I am,I'm absolutely open to it.
Hit okay.
Exactly.
And equally if I'm respondingand I don't respond, um, in the.
Current political way, just callme out.
I'm totally happy to be, comedown.
Uh, yes, exactly.
We, we kind of need thelisteners to, to chime in on
(02:44):
their areas of expertise wherewe are.
We are doing our level best, butwe are, we're open.
We're open to learn, aren't we?
We're learning.
Let's go.
Yep.
Okay.
So the sources for today thenare the National Archives, a
biography by a writer calledRachel Holmes called Scanty
Particulars the life of Dr.
James Barry, the London Guides.
(03:05):
You know the fellows with theumbrella who take you around.
Oh, seriously.
Very cool.
They, they have blogs about,museums and galleries of London.
So there's piece there.
The University of Edinburghalumni website.
Another biography, this onecalled Dr.
James Barry, a woman ahead ofher time.
Mm-hmm.
By Michael Dupris and JeremyDrawn Field and the welcome
(03:27):
collections, copies of documentsfrom the public records office.
So Barry, today we have thestory of Dr.
James Barry, and it might notsound like an obvious choice for
a pod called she changedhistory, but stick with me
please.
So to start us off from theNational Archives, I've got some
(03:48):
facts of Dr.
Barry's life, which superconcise.
Born in 1795 in Cork, Ireland.
Barry became a leading doctorwith a glittering medical career
who did much to raise standardsof medical care in and outside
of the army.
Barry chose to exclusively liveand identify as a man having
(04:11):
been assigned female at birth.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, Barry at birth wasassigned female and named
Margaret Ann, bulky or bulky.
born into poverty, with a coupleof siblings.
A father who struggledfinancially, in common with a
lot of the stories that we talkabout.
(04:32):
The family was broken apart andMargaret's mother brought them
to England when they were 15years old.
Okay, so brace yourself.
We've got a little bit ofEmpress Matilda style recycling
and reuse of names here.
Yeah.
It's not quite Empress Matildalevels, but Jeffrey.
Jeffrey and Jeffrey Jr.
(04:52):
Yeah.
It's just a little bit like,huh?
But then you go, oh, I see.
Okay.
So Margaret, as was Margaret,had an uncle called James.
Barry.
Yep.
So after they immigrated,Margaret's mother reached out to
Uncle James and he couldn't orwouldn't help them financially,
but after he died, theyinherited, they also were in
(05:15):
contact with his circle offriends who were sort of, he was
an artist and a professor.
They were artists, they wereliberals.
They were politically active.
So Margaret.
And Margaret's mother decided touse the money they inherited
from Uncle James as a nest eggto help pay for Margaret to
(05:37):
pursue medical training at theUniversity of Edinburgh.
But the hitch was women did notgain the right to be admitted to
universities in Britain at alluntil 1868.
As you know, from past episodes,they didn't gain the legal right
to be trained as doctors until1876.
(05:59):
So at this point it's 1808 andMargaret attending med school is
not straightforward.
They're like way ahead of theirtime.
And also helpful with that.
Is that your mum?
Wants to invest in you.
Yes.
How nice is that?
Yes.
And, and is willing to kind ofpull some strings and make some
(06:20):
plans.
So the alumni pages on theUniversity of Edinburgh website
says that when Uncle James died,a plan was hatched that they
would study.
They, Barry would study medicinein Edinburgh disguised as a man.
And then once their familyfriend, general Francisco de
(06:41):
Miranda Was trying at the timeto liberate and take charge of
Venezuela and then, Margaretwould go to Venezuela and
practice medicine there as awoman.
Right.
That's the plan.
Got it.
Yeah.
Like, what's Venezuela got to dowith anything?
Barry Margaret, as was obviouslyidentified, I can't do what I
(07:05):
want to do in my own country.
I'm willing to bend the rulesand do what it takes to do it.
But like Lisa Menner, like someof the other women you talked
about, there comes a point whereyou have to make this decision
to immigrate if, if the laws ofthe land don't support you, you
want to do what you want to do,you go where you can do it.
(07:25):
So that's where we're at,obviously very determined.
Yeah.
And also very like in line withtoday, like weirdly because of
going after that a way.
Yeah.
And the way politics is going,people are considering moving to
a country that supports whatthey wanna do and where Yes.
They wanna live.
And you know, it just showsthat.
(07:47):
We have the same dilemmas,hundreds a years later.
It's, slightly differentcontext, but the, the core
decision that some people aremaking is the same.
Right.
It is, it, it's disturbing tothink that we're still there.
Yeah.
That's a good word.
So Barry Med School, they've gotthis clever plan.
Yep.
And the sneaky even.
Well, they, they, they, theyhave to work for it.
(08:09):
so Barry applies to the medschool and has some, some work
experience, having.
Enlisted, apparently in the Armyfrom about age 15 or so.
Okay.
Again, an army that onlyaccepted men, so quite how that
worked.
So as a woman potentially, Idon't know as a man at this
point, I think it, it, itevidently must have been, as you
(08:32):
say, as a man, but then goesalong to the university to
apply.
And because Barry was of smallstature and had no facial hair
and a high voice, the universitySenate moved to block the
application and block themtaking their entrance exams
(08:52):
because they simply did notappear old enough.
And if you've got the documentthat I'm mm-hmm.
My notes, there's a portraitthere and looking at the
portrait.
Oh gosh.
Right.
You can see the point.
This person.
Looks to be 11 years old, youwould have some questions if
they turned up and said, hi, I'mhere to apply to uni.
(09:13):
It's also just, and also I wannabe a doctor.
I feel like, can you reach thetable?
Would I give you a scalpel?
No, possibly, no.
I, there's also a chance thatportrait, I'm no artist, but
between you and me, I'm sayingit's perhaps not technically the
best portrait that's ever beendone.
So who knows?
Maybe it's a bit unfair.
(09:35):
But anyway, ultimately, whatevermisgivings they had, they did
let Barry sit the entrance examsand they took their place at the
university.
And in Edburg, which is abeautiful university and very
prestige and and has a, a richhistory in the field of
medicine, which, I'm sure we'lldig into more at other points.
(09:56):
So Barry is now living at uniand doing their, their studies,
and you think about your own uniexperience and how do you
disguise the physical fact ofyour body if you are presenting
yourself as something other thanwhat, what your physical
appearance would suggest.
(10:16):
So in a modern way, you think,how do you even do that?
But social protocols around sortof personal privacy and demure,
is that the right word?
Like discretion in the 18hundreds were pretty broad, so
it wouldn't have been, itwouldn't have been.
Alarming for someone to simplynot show their body to, you
(10:40):
know, you wouldn't be in achanging room having a chat.
Yeah.
Putting on your deodorant.
Frankly, even now, I wouldsooner break a cyanide tooth
than have a chat with someonethat I know in a changing room.
No, but Barry just kind of keptthemselves to themselves and
wore kind of heavy clothing thatsupported thick, I imagine.
(11:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
thick weaves and.
Found any more feminine aspectsof their physiology so that they
did not show to be a femalebody.
Mm-hmm.
A bit likeon Jack A.
Little bit.
That's kind of what I'mthinking.
That is such a good, and if youlook at the gorgeous, gorgeous
fashion that's in GentlemanJack, you can see, I mean they
(11:27):
played up the sexy obviously,'cause it's a fiction and it's
kind of about that.
But you can see how thetailoring of that day could be
turned to your advantage if youwere trying to sort of.
Just give yourself a straight upand down, more masculine
presenting line.
More of that tailoring todayplease, I think.
Don't mind, comfy.
Don't mind that at all.
(11:47):
Yeah, don't mind that at all.
Um, I am, I'm slightly disturbedby the prospect of the smell of
wet tweed.
They're doing their program andUniversity of Burgh, as you say,
illustrious, respecteduniversity.
But get this.
The program to become a surgeonback at that time looked a bit
(12:07):
like this.
Okay, so Barry qualified as anMD in 1812.
what an md a medical doctor, andthat took one year, one teen,
teeny, tiny year, a medicaldoctor.
They had to write a thesis.
And interestingly, the thesisBarry wrote was on a condition
(12:28):
called femoral hernia.
And apparently it's a conditionmore commonly presenting in
women.
So that's, that's an interestingchoice.
Yeah, it's cool.
Um, then Barry went on to guysin St.
Thomas's, another institution wewould still recognize today as
being, uh, in the forefront.
Uh, that was to Stu study as asurgeon and they studied under
(12:52):
some really well respected andrenowned surgeons at the time.
Right.
And then had to pass an exam atthe Royal Car College of
Surgeons.
And that happened in 1813.
So, oh, so like, so two yearsguys done and dusted.
Yeah.
It's horrifying.
I, thought's a busy patientstuff in these two years.
(13:13):
Is it, I imagine it's just lotsof theory and lots of looking at
things in jars.
I think there's also that reallygnarly.
Surgical historical thing of,you can see it in like books
like The Mad Woman's Ball, wherebasically they rock up and watch
the surgeons do a surgery andthat's your training.
(13:36):
I.
Like, I've sat in a, anauditorium about 35 feet away.
I didn't vomit or faint.
Yeah, right.
I'm just watching it'causethere's like 800 students all
watching it.
Great.
We're qualified, you know what Imean?
Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
So to, to put everyone's mind atease.
I read that and went, holy hell.
That's alarming.
Nowadays, if you want to be asurgeon in, in Britain, you
(13:59):
typically take between 14 and 16years.
People listening, please do notcancel any procedures you might
have booked.
It's fine.
We do live the NHS.
We do, We all had to startsomewhere and that's where they
were.
It was a pioneering field.
They were doing what they weredoing.
Two years.
Two years.
And at the end of that twoyears, I may have mentioned it
was two years.
(14:19):
Barry became the first person tograduate as a medical doctor in
Britain, who was a woman.
Okay, under the radar.
They didn't know that they'ddone that under radar without
the university knowing.
So yes, without perhaps eventhem wishing to be known that
way.
So there is this question MarkSpeaky, but the first openly
(14:42):
female candidate, as you wellknow, was 50 years later in
1865, Elizabeth GarrettAnderson, who you have done love
another pod about and whatnumber pod is she?
Excellent one.
Lemme get what number 17.
Okay, so Elizabeth GarrettAnderson, pod number 17, and
(15:04):
another one who exploited aloophole as you cover to, to go
through her training.
Yeah.
Simon did a cracking gel, didn'the?
Okay, cool.
So this was slightly before,slightly before and under the
radar where she was o openlygoing for it and fighting hard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so Barry now has done thoseyears of training, is qualified
(15:27):
and ready to work, but sadly forthem and the plan that they had
hatched with mom and the familyfriends, possibly, also, sadly
for the people of Venezuela, Idon't know the revolution, there
did not go general Miranda'sway.
So all the plans of whathappened after qualification had
(15:49):
to be abandoned.
And Barry.
At that point has the choice,they leave the career that
they've just trained for andlove, or they continue to live
as a man to practice in Britain.
Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn'tit?
Because they're probably livingit as well, is, my guess if you
are studying and learning andyour mom's invested in you, and
(16:14):
you wanna thrive in thatenvironment, don't you?
That's it.
They're not doing the easything.
They're doing the hard thing.
Yes.
And you don't do the hard thingunless you have a really strong
motivation.
So we also understanding andvalues and your compass and all
that, you know, and skill,absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
(16:35):
And as an extra layer to that.
Because we don't know how Barrythought about their own gender.
We did.
This might not have been atricky decision at all.
This might have been quitestraightforward, but what we can
say is Barry went all in becauseimmediately after achieving that
qualification as a surgeon, theynot only carried on living and
(16:59):
working as a man, they alsoimmediately joined the all male
British army.
So Right, okay.
Like putting a tin lid on it.
That is what I am doing.
Mm-hmm.
And again.
That question, how do you getaway with disguising your
physical gender, if you'reenlisting?
And again, it's the timeframethat we're working within
(17:21):
because people entering themilitary as an officer You're
sort of grandfathered in becauseyou're a certain social class,
you've attained a certain levelof education, so the door is
open to you.
You're not subject to the samescrutiny, I suppose.
Also I'm thinking what's thealternative for Barry?
(17:42):
So, absolutely.
Went all hard, all in, but whatwas the, you just go back Yeah.
Without knowing the detail ofit, what, what springs to mind
is, I suppose the limitations ofthe gender.
What useful application can Iget?
How do I help people in thatway?
Yeah.
(18:02):
Midwifery maybe, right?
Yeah.
Being kind of a village, like aquote unquote healer.
That's not satisfying to someonewho has trained at the absolute
cutting edge of surgery in atime when surgery was in its
infancy.
And that was such a powerfulthing to be able to do to help
people.
(18:23):
I have to say, there's alsohistorical records, a letter
that Barry.
While still identified asMargaret wrote to their brother
saying he, I guess, had decidedto leave the army, the brother,
to become a lawyer.
No slouch.
Okay.
Uh, and Margaret kind of wrote aletter seemingly scolding him
(18:43):
and saying, well, if I was aboy, I'd be a soldier.
I can't believe you're, youknow, throwing this away.
So, okay.
Perhaps that's interesting.
Yeah.
I don't think it was, um, Idon't think it was like a b-list
choice for them.
Yeah.
I think they were into it, so.
Got you.
Um, yeah, that started thecareer progression.
(19:06):
I'm gonna try to kind of gothrough quick, quickly, because
like a lot of the people we talkabout it was hit the ground
running and go, go, go after it.
So Barry was.
Deployed to Cape Town.
Okay.
And in short order, um, theyended up attending to medical
(19:26):
matters for the kind of the bigcheeses, the high ranking
officers, and gaining favorusing that time honored combo of
impressing people with beingvery capable, but also very
charismatic.
And that won them a positionwhilst still at a relatively low
(19:48):
military ranking to be theColonial medical inspector, um,
in Cape Town.
Sweet.
And that sort of set the ballrolling.
Okay.
And to kind of give you the, thegreatest hits in a condu
condensed way.
Um, this is an excerpt from theLondon Tourist Guide website, So
we've got the top four here.
(20:11):
Barry was one of the firstBritish surgeons in medical
history.
They say the first, but that'sdisputed to perform a successful
cesarean section, saving boththe lives of the mother and the
baby.
That's fascinating.
Um, right.
They were ultimately INSInspector General of military
hospitals, but we'll come backto that.
(20:32):
The first person born a woman tobecome a member of the Royal
College of Surgeons 98 yearsbefore they officially admitted
women.
Yeah.
You know, our, our episode 17notwithstanding and apparently
just to name drop, uh, old nappybee, Napoleon Bonaparte summoned
Dr.
(20:52):
Barry to treat the son of hisprivate secretary because the
rumors are so great.
Oh, I said four.
There's actually five.
Um, sorry.
This is the most important oneof all.
I think Barry workedconsistently throughout their
career to campaign against poorsanitation and overcrowding in
prisons and army barracks atevery single place they were
(21:14):
deployed to, which was many.
Nice.
They were out there working forthe great and the good for
people who didn't have a voicefor themselves.
Ugh.
sound fabulous, right?
And would you like a little bitof pub trivia?
I mean, you know, I love a pubquiz.
Let's go.
Right.
So, okay, here you go.
The little baby that was born ofthe C-section that Barry.
(21:37):
Performed.
The first one.
was the baby was named afterBarry.
the baby's name was John BarrySig Mun.
And then that family carried onthe tradition of naming the Boy
Children John Barry, andultimately one of the
descendants, ended up being thePrime Minister of South Africa.
(21:58):
So, my God, from 1924 to 1939,John Barry, oh, not Mun, sorry.
John Barry, Mick Herzog.
Uh, there you go.
So little baby carried onthroughout the generations,
bringing that name forward, whohe ultimately, originally
belonged to.
Mean Uncle James, John, whowouldn't help James, who
(22:22):
wouldn't help them.
So back on track here.
Sorry.
Any of those achievements in acareer I think would've been
remarkable.
True.
I'll take it.
Yeah.
All of them.
All of them.
Whilst carrying the stress,presumably of like, might, might
someone find out my gender andthen I'm going to be disbarred,
(22:46):
sacrificed.
Whatever happens to doctors,surgeons, you get kicked out,
you're done.
So an absolute overachiever, butnot necessarily.
A nice person to know.
So, oh yeah, I'll go back hereto the University of Edinburgh
who say Barry was considered abad tempered, squeaky voiced,
(23:11):
eccentric, often teased bycolleagues for their voice.
Okay.
Mean, really mean.
And it said that Barrychallenged tormentors to duals
and shot one man dead throughthe lung, and their note teasing
died down after this particularincident.
Well, I bet it did.
I mean, I'm not surprised.
(23:32):
Nobody likes a bully, but again,that's kind of overachieving In
the avenging yourself stakesshooting someone through the
lung.
It's, it's a such intenseperiod, but were juul's quite
common back then.
It probably, probably a Juultoday is probably much more, I
tell you my only frame ofreference is Hamilton.
It's Hamilton.
That's exactly, I I theyhappened in a hundred percent of
(23:54):
cases all disputes and onesheets.
Yeah.
Yep.
That's what they, they say, butno, Barry apparently actually
did the thing.
Um, Barry even had beef withFlorence Nightingale.
So there's a quote from herbasically saying, what a horrid
little man, um, Florence KnightGae was the beef.
(24:16):
I don't know the details of it.
It seems like Barry was on ahorse, on a battlefield.
They met, he was rude anddismissive.
Right.
She was not having it.
I don't, I wasn't there.
I think it gonna win I's likeinternalized misogyny a little
bit.
Well, I.
I wonder that too.
Yeah.
Or perhaps a desire to keep a, awoman at arm's length who might
(24:42):
stop things.
Correct.
Yeah.
Like you might see throughsomething.
These guys aren't going to, Ibetter, you know, take a strong
move to put you in your placeand not get off my horse.
You know, Florence Nightingaleman, Jesus pick a song
synonymous with caregiving.
(25:03):
Um, so yeah, Barry is probablymore than a little bit spicy.
Um, but those qualities of notshying away from a fight of
being so self-assured andcentered in their own beliefs.
Are probably what allowed Barryto challenge the status quo.
(25:26):
They had the stomach for anargument.
They had the stomach to stand upto the politicians and the
officials who were settingmedical policy and to say, this
is not good enough.
People are becoming sick.
Yeah.
So that pattern of pushing backand making improvements to
benefit the troops, theprisoners, the people who did
(25:49):
not have a voice, it just cameup again and again.
It's a tosa, isn't it?
Yeah, it really is.
And these are people who arevery also confident in their
own, the rightness of their ownopinions.
And someone coming with medicalfact and meeting fire with fire
is what made change happen.
So Barry's out there, SouthAfrica, Mauritius, Jamaica, St.
(26:14):
Helena, the West Indies, mygosh, travel bunny, traveling,
posting military, militaryposting, military posting,
ruffling feathers all the way,but had some friends in high
places because of the sheerefficacy of the work.
So sounds like they know how toplay the game.
Yeah, I think it sounds verypolitical nuance and very like
(26:37):
they know how to navigate thisworld and that, to be honest in
itself is a very stronger skillset.
It really isn't is and needbluff and bluster with just as
much pure, you know, like, yeah,I do know actually.
Thank you Mr.
Mann.
And that won over as long as youdeliver.
(27:00):
You know, you can sort of outbully a bully sometimes, but.
Nobody can argue with fact ifyou have soldiers dying strategy
Ry and then they're not dying ofdysentery because of mo moves
that you said were necessary.
That's that, isn't it?
Yeah.
Like you can't, you can't outbully fact.
(27:20):
Um, so they work their waythrough in this way and then
were promoted in 1840 to becomethe principal medical officer in
the army.
And let's not stop there off toCorfu to become the Deputy
Inspector General of hospitalson to Canada, which was a
(27:42):
British commonwealth territory.
Is that the right term?
So off to Canada in 1857 tobecome the Inspector General of
hospitals, which is.
A very fine ranking.
Hi.
Hi.
Yeah.
And again, extending thatprogram of care and fact-based
service to include prisoners,people with leprosy as well as
(28:05):
the soldiers and their families.
We're not just being,transactional about it.
We're actually caring about thewellbeing of people.
So, I have a picture, an actualphotograph of Barry, with.
it says a long serving butlercalled John.
(28:26):
And then there's a little dogcalled Psyche.
Barry was apparently immenselyfond of animals.
So there you have, Barry andJohn in London.
Gentleman mode.
and that is ultimately whatBarry was to become in 1859.
Barry was forcibly retired fromthe army.
(28:48):
He didn't retire.
They retired him, because he wasold by their standards and in
poor health.
And Barry fought hard to not beretired, but ultimately lost.
That sounds consistent to hischaracter.
Yes.
You don't tell me, I tell youwhen I'm ready to retire, that
is absolutely consistent withhis character.
(29:10):
definitely.
that being said, the army mayhave had a point because it was
just six years later that Barrydid die and not a good death,
sadly, died of dysentery, whichis miserable.
Um, what's that?
Oh, it's a gastrointestinaldisease.
Okay.
(29:30):
It is.
I think.
It's a waterborne illness, itturns up in areas of poor
sanitation.
Okay.
I'm not saying London at thetime was that, but this is a
person who's traveled a lot.
dysentery and I think on thedeath certificate, the doctor
put it down to, oh, he used areally interesting turn of
(29:52):
phrase, which was something likeunconventional dietary choices.
And Barry is known to have beena vegetarian, which I suppose in
that day where you ate like alamb chop for breakfast, it
probably did seem peculiar to,to eat only vegetables.
But one way or the other, poorold berry is now.
(30:12):
Dead.
And this is the point where theidentity that they have worked
hard to preserve and keepprivate Oh, of course became a
matter of public speculation.
So the facts are as follows, Aperson, a woman, went to the
(30:33):
media to say Dr.
Barry, the, medical inspectorfrom the British Army as was,
was physically female.
And there is, a kind ofnarrative behind that, that the
person came in to wash theirbody to prepare them for.
The funeral procedures.
(30:56):
At any rate, there is somespeculation about she, the woman
who disclosed this might havebeen motivated by money or
perhaps had a grudge Yeah.
But one way or the other, shewent to the media and said Dr.
Barry was physically female.
there was even more alreadyunreliable sources.
(31:16):
Yeah.
It's, it's sketchy, but thehistorical documents do support
the facts of Barry having afemale presentation.
Okay.
Whatever her reasons interestingwhy she chose to make that
public and the ethics of makingthat public, I'm not even gonna
touch because Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, it just seems.
(31:36):
It seems too shrouded andmystery doesn't feel like a
great thing to do, obviously.
Uh, but whatever the reasons itcaused a media sensation.
The colleagues who had workedwith Barry over the years were
contacted and there are allthese articles and you've kind
of got people expressingsurprise.
You've got people sayingabsolutely cannot be true, and
people saying, I knew it allalong.
(31:58):
I, I don't know what FlorenceNightingale would've made of it
if she was still around at thetime.
But ultimately the comment thatI'll kind of pull in at this
point was, from someone whoseposition was Registrar General.
They went to the medicalexaminer who issued Barry's
death certificate on which itwas declared that Barry was
(32:19):
male.
And the Registrar General askedthat person, Mr.
McKinnon, what's the deal?
And Mr.
McKinnon's comment was, it wasnone of my business, whether Dr.
Barry was a male or a female.
That as I thought he mightlikely be neither.
whether Dr.
Barry was male, female, orhermaphrodite again, in outmoded
(32:42):
term.
But it said in context, I do notknow, nor had I any purpose in
making that discovery as I couldpositively swear to the identity
of the body as being that of theperson who I had been acquainted
with as Inspector General ofhospitals for a period of eight
or nine years.
Yes, Mr.
McKinnon.
(33:02):
Right.
Loving this guy.
So we cannot know what was inMr.
McKinnon's mind as he wrotethose words, but to my thinking,
what I take from it is thisBarry.
Was the person McKinnon knew.
Yeah.
And whatever was going on intheir pants was of no relevance
(33:24):
to anyone other than Barrythemselves.
Yeah.
Had no bearing on theirprofessional capabilities.
They were just Dr.
Barry as skilled, a practitioneras you could hope to meet.
Ferocious ally, fearsome enemy,which it's very a, she changed
history take.
Right.
That's, that's what weappreciate.
(33:45):
We need more of that thinking.
Now we do think these, thegender limitations on almost
every single job you could thinkto do with some very specific
exceptions, gender limitationson work.
Are inappropriate and theydiminish all of us.
(34:06):
They take people out of theworkforce who would be so
capable Oh my God.
And would be so productive andwould progress humanity Exactly.
That we could ever realize.
So all of that around theprofessional capability piece
having been said, I will now inmy last, thoughts on the topics,
(34:29):
mention this, that.
The University of Edinburgh putsit this way to give Barry the
full respect they're due and torefer to them by the correct
gender.
It would be useful to know ifthey considered themselves to be
a man or if they, theyidentified as a woman all along
after decades of pretending.
(34:50):
And, you know, they may haveconsidered themselves
non-binary.
And we, we probably will neverknow because the, treasure
troves of source material aboutthis have been pretty thoroughly
examined.
Yeah, there's been a lot oftime, I imagine there has and,
and, but why such an interestingcharacter people have really
(35:10):
sought to kind of dive in andnow with, a lGBTQ plus lens, a
modern lens on this issue.
Yeah.
There are people who want toknow this for an entirely new
set of social reasons.
So I I, I, I get the historicalinterest, but whatever the case
(35:32):
may be about how Barry sawthemselves, the life's work
speaks for itself.
For itself.
And the uncertainty really onlyserves to show to my mind that
gender non-conforming people areand always have been a
(35:53):
productive part of our society.
So, oh, yeah, that is where Ileave it, Dr.
Barry.
I did feel like really lightafter the Dr.
McKinnon quote.
I was like, yes.
Like, yeah, that's articulatedbetter than I ever could.
That, the work's more importantthan the person, I acknowledge
(36:16):
that I have chosen a specificset of lines from a long, a
longer letter, but if you goonto the welcome, um, collection
website, you can see a photocopyof the letter.
I truly believe that it was amatter of, of logic and well,
don't be absurd.
That doesn't even matter.
And you know, yes, yes, yes,yes.
(36:37):
Mr.
McKinnon love it.
Oh, ra, thank you so much.
Yeah, nice.
You did that.
Yeah.
Really good narrative.
Thank you.
Excellent.
Yeah, this is nice one.
I have to say my, my greatfriend Phil is, a huge medical
history buff.
And the reason I know about thisperson is that Phil loaned me,
(36:59):
one of the biographies that I, Icited in the sources scanty
particulars.
It's really been interesting torevisit this person, because
when Phil loaned me that book,it was probably 10 years ago,
say, okay.
And the book had been knockingabout for more than a decade and
already the difference in how weview a life and a person's right
(37:24):
to their own gender identity.
You know, for our, for ourpurposes.
The facts of a woman's abilityto do certain jobs or so on is,
those are just plain facts, butthe, the kind of more murky
things about how, how a personmight feel about their own
(37:45):
identity have really started,the thinking has moved on since
I last read about thischaracter, and that's been
fascinating to dive into.
Hey, thank you Phil.
Shout out to, yeah, Phil there.
Super star.
He's dude, he's a good actor.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you.
(38:05):
Thanks very much.
Well, we hope you enjoyed ittoo.
Thank you for listening.
if you did enjoy that, pleaseshare.
Please share our podcast, likerate, subscribe.
we're on Instagram, well now onYouTube properly.
I've understood.
Has worked YouTube now.
Yeah, well done.
Nice one.
but I don't think an Instagramlikes us anymore.
(38:27):
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Oh, the old, it's uh, the oldalgorithms gone on the turn.
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Listeners, thank you very muchand we'll be back next week.
Thanks Vicki.
Thanks listeners.
Thanks.
Bye.
They're all into it.
We're, we all have been swept upin the Netflix drive to survive.
Uh, amazing F1 wave.
Yeah, so we are held in completecontempt by real fans, but hey,
I'm having a good time.
This will probably be the onlyrace of the year I get up at
this kind of time for, but itwas just because it was the
(00:29):
first one I was all in and thenthe race was insane.
Are you ready to, you ready torock?
Shall we go?
Shall we?
Yeah.
Hi Kara.
Okay.
Hi Vicki.
How are you?
I'm very well, thank you.
And excited to talk to you aboutsomebody who is so interesting
and.
Quite a mysterious character intheir way.
(00:52):
Oh my gosh.
I'm so ready.
Well welcome everyone to, shechanged history, the lovely
Carra is with us today and she'sgot a fabulous story to tell us.
Alright, off you go.
Let's hit it.
Okay.
So in the coming weeks as we'rerecording this, the world will
be observing Transgender Day ofVisibility, which falls on March
(01:14):
the 31st each year.
So that felt like a really goodtime to talk about a figure from
British history called Dr.
Barry, whose gender presentationwas something private,
obviously, but also became atopic of public speculation and
was a key to their careerbecause of the time in which
(01:36):
they lived.
Mm-hmm.
I wanted to start with a sort ofa broad disclaimer and say this
is a nuanced story and a nuancedtopic, and I, I, I always want
to, and we'll try to here, stickto the facts, not make
assumptions.
Um, I'm, I've been as careful asit could be about the language,
(01:58):
so I'll be using they instead ofhe or she, because there is
ambiguity about how Barrythought of their own gender
identity and some of thehistorical sources use wording
that would now be consideredinappropriate or outmoded.
And I use those words advisedlyand in context, but.
(02:21):
Sure I am, I'm open to feedback.
I am no expert.
So at me if you wanna, I I am,I'm absolutely open to it.
Hit okay.
Exactly.
And equally if I'm respondingand I don't respond, um, in the.
Current political way, just callme out.
I'm totally happy to be, comedown.
Uh, yes, exactly.
We, we kind of need thelisteners to, to chime in on
(02:44):
their areas of expertise wherewe are.
We are doing our level best, butwe are, we're open.
We're open to learn, aren't we?
We're learning.
Let's go.
Yep.
Okay.
So the sources for today thenare the National Archives, a
biography by a writer calledRachel Holmes called Scanty
Particulars the life of Dr.
James Barry, the London Guides.
(03:05):
You know the fellows with theumbrella who take you around.
Oh, seriously.
Very cool.
They, they have blogs about,museums and galleries of London.
So there's piece there.
The University of Edinburghalumni website.
Another biography, this onecalled Dr.
James Barry, a woman ahead ofher time.
Mm-hmm.
By Michael Dupris and JeremyDrawn Field and the welcome
(03:27):
collections, copies of documentsfrom the public records office.
So Barry, today we have thestory of Dr.
James Barry, and it might notsound like an obvious choice for
a pod called she changedhistory, but stick with me
please.
So to start us off from theNational Archives, I've got some
(03:48):
facts of Dr.
Barry's life, which superconcise.
Born in 1795 in Cork, Ireland.
Barry became a leading doctorwith a glittering medical career
who did much to raise standardsof medical care in and outside
of the army.
Barry chose to exclusively liveand identify as a man having
(04:11):
been assigned female at birth.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, Barry at birth wasassigned female and named
Margaret Ann, bulky or bulky.
born into poverty, with a coupleof siblings.
A father who struggledfinancially, in common with a
lot of the stories that we talkabout.
(04:32):
The family was broken apart andMargaret's mother brought them
to England when they were 15years old.
Okay, so brace yourself.
We've got a little bit ofEmpress Matilda style recycling
and reuse of names here.
Yeah.
It's not quite Empress Matildalevels, but Jeffrey.
Jeffrey and Jeffrey Jr.
(04:52):
Yeah.
It's just a little bit like,huh?
But then you go, oh, I see.
Okay.
So Margaret, as was Margaret,had an uncle called James.
Barry.
Yep.
So after they immigrated,Margaret's mother reached out to
Uncle James and he couldn't orwouldn't help them financially,
but after he died, theyinherited, they also were in
(05:15):
contact with his circle offriends who were sort of, he was
an artist and a professor.
They were artists, they wereliberals.
They were politically active.
So Margaret.
And Margaret's mother decided touse the money they inherited
from Uncle James as a nest eggto help pay for Margaret to
(05:37):
pursue medical training at theUniversity of Edinburgh.
But the hitch was women did notgain the right to be admitted to
universities in Britain at alluntil 1868.
As you know, from past episodes,they didn't gain the legal right
to be trained as doctors until1876.
(05:59):
So at this point it's 1808 andMargaret attending med school is
not straightforward.
They're like way ahead of theirtime.
And also helpful with that.
Is that your mum?
Wants to invest in you.
Yes.
How nice is that?
Yes.
And, and is willing to kind ofpull some strings and make some
(06:20):
plans.
So the alumni pages on theUniversity of Edinburgh website
says that when Uncle James died,a plan was hatched that they
would study.
They, Barry would study medicinein Edinburgh disguised as a man.
And then once their familyfriend, general Francisco de
(06:41):
Miranda Was trying at the timeto liberate and take charge of
Venezuela and then, Margaretwould go to Venezuela and
practice medicine there as awoman.
Right.
That's the plan.
Got it.
Yeah.
Like, what's Venezuela got to dowith anything?
Barry Margaret, as was obviouslyidentified, I can't do what I
(07:05):
want to do in my own country.
I'm willing to bend the rulesand do what it takes to do it.
But like Lisa Menner, like someof the other women you talked
about, there comes a point whereyou have to make this decision
to immigrate if, if the laws ofthe land don't support you, you
want to do what you want to do,you go where you can do it.
(07:25):
So that's where we're at,obviously very determined.
Yeah.
And also very like in line withtoday, like weirdly because of
going after that a way.
Yeah.
And the way politics is going,people are considering moving to
a country that supports whatthey wanna do and where Yes.
They wanna live.
And you know, it just showsthat.
(07:47):
We have the same dilemmas,hundreds a years later.
It's, slightly differentcontext, but the, the core
decision that some people aremaking is the same.
Right.
It is, it, it's disturbing tothink that we're still there.
Yeah.
That's a good word.
So Barry Med School, they've gotthis clever plan.
Yep.
And the sneaky even.
Well, they, they, they, theyhave to work for it.
(08:09):
so Barry applies to the medschool and has some, some work
experience, having.
Enlisted, apparently in the Armyfrom about age 15 or so.
Okay.
Again, an army that onlyaccepted men, so quite how that
worked.
So as a woman potentially, Idon't know as a man at this
point, I think it, it, itevidently must have been, as you
(08:32):
say, as a man, but then goesalong to the university to
apply.
And because Barry was of smallstature and had no facial hair
and a high voice, the universitySenate moved to block the
application and block themtaking their entrance exams
(08:52):
because they simply did notappear old enough.
And if you've got the documentthat I'm mm-hmm.
My notes, there's a portraitthere and looking at the
portrait.
Oh gosh.
Right.
You can see the point.
This person.
Looks to be 11 years old, youwould have some questions if
they turned up and said, hi, I'mhere to apply to uni.
(09:13):
It's also just, and also I wannabe a doctor.
I feel like, can you reach thetable?
Would I give you a scalpel?
No, possibly, no.
I, there's also a chance thatportrait, I'm no artist, but
between you and me, I'm sayingit's perhaps not technically the
best portrait that's ever beendone.
So who knows?
Maybe it's a bit unfair.
(09:35):
But anyway, ultimately, whatevermisgivings they had, they did
let Barry sit the entrance examsand they took their place at the
university.
And in Edburg, which is abeautiful university and very
prestige and and has a, a richhistory in the field of
medicine, which, I'm sure we'lldig into more at other points.
(09:56):
So Barry is now living at uniand doing their, their studies,
and you think about your own uniexperience and how do you
disguise the physical fact ofyour body if you are presenting
yourself as something other thanwhat, what your physical
appearance would suggest.
(10:16):
So in a modern way, you think,how do you even do that?
But social protocols around sortof personal privacy and demure,
is that the right word?
Like discretion in the 18hundreds were pretty broad, so
it wouldn't have been, itwouldn't have been.
Alarming for someone to simplynot show their body to, you
(10:40):
know, you wouldn't be in achanging room having a chat.
Yeah.
Putting on your deodorant.
Frankly, even now, I wouldsooner break a cyanide tooth
than have a chat with someonethat I know in a changing room.
No, but Barry just kind of keptthemselves to themselves and
wore kind of heavy clothing thatsupported thick, I imagine.
(11:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
thick weaves and.
Found any more feminine aspectsof their physiology so that they
did not show to be a femalebody.
Mm-hmm.
A bit likeon Jack A.
Little bit.
That's kind of what I'mthinking.
That is such a good, and if youlook at the gorgeous, gorgeous
fashion that's in GentlemanJack, you can see, I mean they
(11:27):
played up the sexy obviously,'cause it's a fiction and it's
kind of about that.
But you can see how thetailoring of that day could be
turned to your advantage if youwere trying to sort of.
Just give yourself a straight upand down, more masculine
presenting line.
More of that tailoring todayplease, I think.
Don't mind, comfy.
Don't mind that at all.
(11:47):
Yeah, don't mind that at all.
Um, I am, I'm slightly disturbedby the prospect of the smell of
wet tweed.
They're doing their program andUniversity of Burgh, as you say,
illustrious, respecteduniversity.
But get this.
The program to become a surgeonback at that time looked a bit
(12:07):
like this.
Okay, so Barry qualified as anMD in 1812.
what an md a medical doctor, andthat took one year, one teen,
teeny, tiny year, a medicaldoctor.
They had to write a thesis.
And interestingly, the thesisBarry wrote was on a condition
(12:28):
called femoral hernia.
And apparently it's a conditionmore commonly presenting in
women.
So that's, that's an interestingchoice.
Yeah, it's cool.
Um, then Barry went on to guysin St.
Thomas's, another institution wewould still recognize today as
being, uh, in the forefront.
Uh, that was to Stu study as asurgeon and they studied under
(12:52):
some really well respected andrenowned surgeons at the time.
Right.
And then had to pass an exam atthe Royal Car College of
Surgeons.
And that happened in 1813.
So, oh, so like, so two yearsguys done and dusted.
Yeah.
It's horrifying.
I, thought's a busy patientstuff in these two years.
(13:13):
Is it, I imagine it's just lotsof theory and lots of looking at
things in jars.
I think there's also that reallygnarly.
Surgical historical thing of,you can see it in like books
like The Mad Woman's Ball, wherebasically they rock up and watch
the surgeons do a surgery andthat's your training.
(13:36):
I.
Like, I've sat in a, anauditorium about 35 feet away.
I didn't vomit or faint.
Yeah, right.
I'm just watching it'causethere's like 800 students all
watching it.
Great.
We're qualified, you know what Imean?
Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
So to, to put everyone's mind atease.
I read that and went, holy hell.
That's alarming.
Nowadays, if you want to be asurgeon in, in Britain, you
(13:59):
typically take between 14 and 16years.
People listening, please do notcancel any procedures you might
have booked.
It's fine.
We do live the NHS.
We do, We all had to startsomewhere and that's where they
were.
It was a pioneering field.
They were doing what they weredoing.
Two years.
Two years.
And at the end of that twoyears, I may have mentioned it
was two years.
(14:19):
Barry became the first person tograduate as a medical doctor in
Britain, who was a woman.
Okay, under the radar.
They didn't know that they'ddone that under radar without
the university knowing.
So yes, without perhaps eventhem wishing to be known that
way.
So there is this question MarkSpeaky, but the first openly
(14:42):
female candidate, as you wellknow, was 50 years later in
1865, Elizabeth GarrettAnderson, who you have done love
another pod about and whatnumber pod is she?
Excellent one.
Lemme get what number 17.
Okay, so Elizabeth GarrettAnderson, pod number 17, and
(15:04):
another one who exploited aloophole as you cover to, to go
through her training.
Yeah.
Simon did a cracking gel, didn'the?
Okay, cool.
So this was slightly before,slightly before and under the
radar where she was o openlygoing for it and fighting hard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so Barry now has done thoseyears of training, is qualified
(15:27):
and ready to work, but sadly forthem and the plan that they had
hatched with mom and the familyfriends, possibly, also, sadly
for the people of Venezuela, Idon't know the revolution, there
did not go general Miranda'sway.
So all the plans of whathappened after qualification had
(15:49):
to be abandoned.
And Barry.
At that point has the choice,they leave the career that
they've just trained for andlove, or they continue to live
as a man to practice in Britain.
Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn'tit?
Because they're probably livingit as well, is, my guess if you
are studying and learning andyour mom's invested in you, and
(16:14):
you wanna thrive in thatenvironment, don't you?
That's it.
They're not doing the easything.
They're doing the hard thing.
Yes.
And you don't do the hard thingunless you have a really strong
motivation.
So we also understanding andvalues and your compass and all
that, you know, and skill,absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
(16:35):
And as an extra layer to that.
Because we don't know how Barrythought about their own gender.
We did.
This might not have been atricky decision at all.
This might have been quitestraightforward, but what we can
say is Barry went all in becauseimmediately after achieving that
qualification as a surgeon, theynot only carried on living and
(16:59):
working as a man, they alsoimmediately joined the all male
British army.
So Right, okay.
Like putting a tin lid on it.
That is what I am doing.
Mm-hmm.
And again.
That question, how do you getaway with disguising your
physical gender, if you'reenlisting?
And again, it's the timeframethat we're working within
(17:21):
because people entering themilitary as an officer You're
sort of grandfathered in becauseyou're a certain social class,
you've attained a certain levelof education, so the door is
open to you.
You're not subject to the samescrutiny, I suppose.
Also I'm thinking what's thealternative for Barry?
(17:42):
So, absolutely.
Went all hard, all in, but whatwas the, you just go back Yeah.
Without knowing the detail ofit, what, what springs to mind
is, I suppose the limitations ofthe gender.
What useful application can Iget?
How do I help people in thatway?
Yeah.
(18:02):
Midwifery maybe, right?
Yeah.
Being kind of a village, like aquote unquote healer.
That's not satisfying to someonewho has trained at the absolute
cutting edge of surgery in atime when surgery was in its
infancy.
And that was such a powerfulthing to be able to do to help
people.
(18:23):
I have to say, there's alsohistorical records, a letter
that Barry.
While still identified asMargaret wrote to their brother
saying he, I guess, had decidedto leave the army, the brother,
to become a lawyer.
No slouch.
Okay.
Uh, and Margaret kind of wrote aletter seemingly scolding him
(18:43):
and saying, well, if I was aboy, I'd be a soldier.
I can't believe you're, youknow, throwing this away.
So, okay.
Perhaps that's interesting.
Yeah.
I don't think it was, um, Idon't think it was like a b-list
choice for them.
Yeah.
I think they were into it, so.
Got you.
Um, yeah, that started thecareer progression.
(19:06):
I'm gonna try to kind of gothrough quick, quickly, because
like a lot of the people we talkabout it was hit the ground
running and go, go, go after it.
So Barry was.
Deployed to Cape Town.
Okay.
And in short order, um, theyended up attending to medical
(19:26):
matters for the kind of the bigcheeses, the high ranking
officers, and gaining favorusing that time honored combo of
impressing people with beingvery capable, but also very
charismatic.
And that won them a positionwhilst still at a relatively low
(19:48):
military ranking to be theColonial medical inspector, um,
in Cape Town.
Sweet.
And that sort of set the ballrolling.
Okay.
And to kind of give you the, thegreatest hits in a condu
condensed way.
Um, this is an excerpt from theLondon Tourist Guide website, So
we've got the top four here.
(20:11):
Barry was one of the firstBritish surgeons in medical
history.
They say the first, but that'sdisputed to perform a successful
cesarean section, saving boththe lives of the mother and the
baby.
That's fascinating.
Um, right.
They were ultimately INSInspector General of military
hospitals, but we'll come backto that.
(20:32):
The first person born a woman tobecome a member of the Royal
College of Surgeons 98 yearsbefore they officially admitted
women.
Yeah.
You know, our, our episode 17notwithstanding and apparently
just to name drop, uh, old nappybee, Napoleon Bonaparte summoned
Dr.
(20:52):
Barry to treat the son of hisprivate secretary because the
rumors are so great.
Oh, I said four.
There's actually five.
Um, sorry.
This is the most important oneof all.
I think Barry workedconsistently throughout their
career to campaign against poorsanitation and overcrowding in
prisons and army barracks atevery single place they were
(21:14):
deployed to, which was many.
Nice.
They were out there working forthe great and the good for
people who didn't have a voicefor themselves.
Ugh.
sound fabulous, right?
And would you like a little bitof pub trivia?
I mean, you know, I love a pubquiz.
Let's go.
Right.
So, okay, here you go.
The little baby that was born ofthe C-section that Barry.
(21:37):
Performed.
The first one.
was the baby was named afterBarry.
the baby's name was John BarrySig Mun.
And then that family carried onthe tradition of naming the Boy
Children John Barry, andultimately one of the
descendants, ended up being thePrime Minister of South Africa.
(21:58):
So, my God, from 1924 to 1939,John Barry, oh, not Mun, sorry.
John Barry, Mick Herzog.
Uh, there you go.
So little baby carried onthroughout the generations,
bringing that name forward, whohe ultimately, originally
belonged to.
Mean Uncle James, John, whowouldn't help James, who
(22:22):
wouldn't help them.
So back on track here.
Sorry.
Any of those achievements in acareer I think would've been
remarkable.
True.
I'll take it.
Yeah.
All of them.
All of them.
Whilst carrying the stress,presumably of like, might, might
someone find out my gender andthen I'm going to be disbarred,
(22:46):
sacrificed.
Whatever happens to doctors,surgeons, you get kicked out,
you're done.
So an absolute overachiever, butnot necessarily.
A nice person to know.
So, oh yeah, I'll go back hereto the University of Edinburgh
who say Barry was considered abad tempered, squeaky voiced,
(23:11):
eccentric, often teased bycolleagues for their voice.
Okay.
Mean, really mean.
And it said that Barrychallenged tormentors to duals
and shot one man dead throughthe lung, and their note teasing
died down after this particularincident.
Well, I bet it did.
I mean, I'm not surprised.
(23:32):
Nobody likes a bully, but again,that's kind of overachieving In
the avenging yourself stakesshooting someone through the
lung.
It's, it's a such intenseperiod, but were juul's quite
common back then.
It probably, probably a Juultoday is probably much more, I
tell you my only frame ofreference is Hamilton.
It's Hamilton.
That's exactly, I I theyhappened in a hundred percent of
(23:54):
cases all disputes and onesheets.
Yeah.
Yep.
That's what they, they say, butno, Barry apparently actually
did the thing.
Um, Barry even had beef withFlorence Nightingale.
So there's a quote from herbasically saying, what a horrid
little man, um, Florence KnightGae was the beef.
(24:16):
I don't know the details of it.
It seems like Barry was on ahorse, on a battlefield.
They met, he was rude anddismissive.
Right.
She was not having it.
I don't, I wasn't there.
I think it gonna win I's likeinternalized misogyny a little
bit.
Well, I.
I wonder that too.
Yeah.
Or perhaps a desire to keep a, awoman at arm's length who might
(24:42):
stop things.
Correct.
Yeah.
Like you might see throughsomething.
These guys aren't going to, Ibetter, you know, take a strong
move to put you in your placeand not get off my horse.
You know, Florence Nightingaleman, Jesus pick a song
synonymous with caregiving.
(25:03):
Um, so yeah, Barry is probablymore than a little bit spicy.
Um, but those qualities of notshying away from a fight of
being so self-assured andcentered in their own beliefs.
Are probably what allowed Barryto challenge the status quo.
(25:26):
They had the stomach for anargument.
They had the stomach to stand upto the politicians and the
officials who were settingmedical policy and to say, this
is not good enough.
People are becoming sick.
Yeah.
So that pattern of pushing backand making improvements to
benefit the troops, theprisoners, the people who did
(25:49):
not have a voice, it just cameup again and again.
It's a tosa, isn't it?
Yeah, it really is.
And these are people who arevery also confident in their
own, the rightness of their ownopinions.
And someone coming with medicalfact and meeting fire with fire
is what made change happen.
So Barry's out there, SouthAfrica, Mauritius, Jamaica, St.
(26:14):
Helena, the West Indies, mygosh, travel bunny, traveling,
posting military, militaryposting, military posting,
ruffling feathers all the way,but had some friends in high
places because of the sheerefficacy of the work.
So sounds like they know how toplay the game.
Yeah, I think it sounds verypolitical nuance and very like
(26:37):
they know how to navigate thisworld and that, to be honest in
itself is a very stronger skillset.
It really isn't is and needbluff and bluster with just as
much pure, you know, like, yeah,I do know actually.
Thank you Mr.
Mann.
And that won over as long as youdeliver.
(27:00):
You know, you can sort of outbully a bully sometimes, but.
Nobody can argue with fact ifyou have soldiers dying strategy
Ry and then they're not dying ofdysentery because of mo moves
that you said were necessary.
That's that, isn't it?
Yeah.
Like you can't, you can't outbully fact.
(27:20):
Um, so they work their waythrough in this way and then
were promoted in 1840 to becomethe principal medical officer in
the army.
And let's not stop there off toCorfu to become the Deputy
Inspector General of hospitalson to Canada, which was a
(27:42):
British commonwealth territory.
Is that the right term?
So off to Canada in 1857 tobecome the Inspector General of
hospitals, which is.
A very fine ranking.
Hi.
Hi.
Yeah.
And again, extending thatprogram of care and fact-based
service to include prisoners,people with leprosy as well as
(28:05):
the soldiers and their families.
We're not just being,transactional about it.
We're actually caring about thewellbeing of people.
So, I have a picture, an actualphotograph of Barry, with.
it says a long serving butlercalled John.
(28:26):
And then there's a little dogcalled Psyche.
Barry was apparently immenselyfond of animals.
So there you have, Barry andJohn in London.
Gentleman mode.
and that is ultimately whatBarry was to become in 1859.
Barry was forcibly retired fromthe army.
(28:48):
He didn't retire.
They retired him, because he wasold by their standards and in
poor health.
And Barry fought hard to not beretired, but ultimately lost.
That sounds consistent to hischaracter.
Yes.
You don't tell me, I tell youwhen I'm ready to retire, that
is absolutely consistent withhis character.
(29:10):
definitely.
that being said, the army mayhave had a point because it was
just six years later that Barrydid die and not a good death,
sadly, died of dysentery, whichis miserable.
Um, what's that?
Oh, it's a gastrointestinaldisease.
Okay.
(29:30):
It is.
I think.
It's a waterborne illness, itturns up in areas of poor
sanitation.
Okay.
I'm not saying London at thetime was that, but this is a
person who's traveled a lot.
dysentery and I think on thedeath certificate, the doctor
put it down to, oh, he used areally interesting turn of
(29:52):
phrase, which was something likeunconventional dietary choices.
And Barry is known to have beena vegetarian, which I suppose in
that day where you ate like alamb chop for breakfast, it
probably did seem peculiar to,to eat only vegetables.
But one way or the other, poorold berry is now.
(30:12):
Dead.
And this is the point where theidentity that they have worked
hard to preserve and keepprivate Oh, of course became a
matter of public speculation.
So the facts are as follows, Aperson, a woman, went to the
(30:33):
media to say Dr.
Barry, the, medical inspectorfrom the British Army as was,
was physically female.
And there is, a kind ofnarrative behind that, that the
person came in to wash theirbody to prepare them for.
The funeral procedures.
(30:56):
At any rate, there is somespeculation about she, the woman
who disclosed this might havebeen motivated by money or
perhaps had a grudge Yeah.
But one way or the other, shewent to the media and said Dr.
Barry was physically female.
there was even more alreadyunreliable sources.
(31:16):
Yeah.
It's, it's sketchy, but thehistorical documents do support
the facts of Barry having afemale presentation.
Okay.
Whatever her reasons interestingwhy she chose to make that
public and the ethics of makingthat public, I'm not even gonna
touch because Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, it just seems.
(31:36):
It seems too shrouded andmystery doesn't feel like a
great thing to do, obviously.
Uh, but whatever the reasons itcaused a media sensation.
The colleagues who had workedwith Barry over the years were
contacted and there are allthese articles and you've kind
of got people expressingsurprise.
You've got people sayingabsolutely cannot be true, and
people saying, I knew it allalong.
(31:58):
I, I don't know what FlorenceNightingale would've made of it
if she was still around at thetime.
But ultimately the comment thatI'll kind of pull in at this
point was, from someone whoseposition was Registrar General.
They went to the medicalexaminer who issued Barry's
death certificate on which itwas declared that Barry was
(32:19):
male.
And the Registrar General askedthat person, Mr.
McKinnon, what's the deal?
And Mr.
McKinnon's comment was, it wasnone of my business, whether Dr.
Barry was a male or a female.
That as I thought he mightlikely be neither.
whether Dr.
Barry was male, female, orhermaphrodite again, in outmoded
(32:42):
term.
But it said in context, I do notknow, nor had I any purpose in
making that discovery as I couldpositively swear to the identity
of the body as being that of theperson who I had been acquainted
with as Inspector General ofhospitals for a period of eight
or nine years.
Yes, Mr.
McKinnon.
(33:02):
Right.
Loving this guy.
So we cannot know what was inMr.
McKinnon's mind as he wrotethose words, but to my thinking,
what I take from it is thisBarry.
Was the person McKinnon knew.
Yeah.
And whatever was going on intheir pants was of no relevance
(33:24):
to anyone other than Barrythemselves.
Yeah.
Had no bearing on theirprofessional capabilities.
They were just Dr.
Barry as skilled, a practitioneras you could hope to meet.
Ferocious ally, fearsome enemy,which it's very a, she changed
history take.
Right.
That's, that's what weappreciate.
(33:45):
We need more of that thinking.
Now we do think these, thegender limitations on almost
every single job you could thinkto do with some very specific
exceptions, gender limitationson work.
Are inappropriate and theydiminish all of us.
(34:06):
They take people out of theworkforce who would be so
capable Oh my God.
And would be so productive andwould progress humanity Exactly.
That we could ever realize.
So all of that around theprofessional capability piece
having been said, I will now inmy last, thoughts on the topics,
(34:29):
mention this, that.
The University of Edinburgh putsit this way to give Barry the
full respect they're due and torefer to them by the correct
gender.
It would be useful to know ifthey considered themselves to be
a man or if they, theyidentified as a woman all along
after decades of pretending.
(34:50):
And, you know, they may haveconsidered themselves
non-binary.
And we, we probably will neverknow because the, treasure
troves of source material aboutthis have been pretty thoroughly
examined.
Yeah, there's been a lot oftime, I imagine there has and,
and, but why such an interestingcharacter people have really
(35:10):
sought to kind of dive in andnow with, a lGBTQ plus lens, a
modern lens on this issue.
Yeah.
There are people who want toknow this for an entirely new
set of social reasons.
So I I, I, I get the historicalinterest, but whatever the case
(35:32):
may be about how Barry sawthemselves, the life's work
speaks for itself.
For itself.
And the uncertainty really onlyserves to show to my mind that
gender non-conforming people areand always have been a
(35:53):
productive part of our society.
So, oh, yeah, that is where Ileave it, Dr.
Barry.
I did feel like really lightafter the Dr.
McKinnon quote.
I was like, yes.
Like, yeah, that's articulatedbetter than I ever could.
That, the work's more importantthan the person, I acknowledge
(36:16):
that I have chosen a specificset of lines from a long, a
longer letter, but if you goonto the welcome, um, collection
website, you can see a photocopyof the letter.
I truly believe that it was amatter of, of logic and well,
don't be absurd.
That doesn't even matter.
And you know, yes, yes, yes,yes.
(36:37):
Mr.
McKinnon love it.
Oh, ra, thank you so much.
Yeah, nice.
You did that.
Yeah.
Really good narrative.
Thank you.
Excellent.
Yeah, this is nice one.
I have to say my, my greatfriend Phil is, a huge medical
history buff.
And the reason I know about thisperson is that Phil loaned me,
(36:59):
one of the biographies that I, Icited in the sources scanty
particulars.
It's really been interesting torevisit this person, because
when Phil loaned me that book,it was probably 10 years ago,
say, okay.
And the book had been knockingabout for more than a decade and
already the difference in how weview a life and a person's right
(37:24):
to their own gender identity.
You know, for our, for ourpurposes.
The facts of a woman's abilityto do certain jobs or so on is,
those are just plain facts, butthe, the kind of more murky
things about how, how a personmight feel about their own
(37:45):
identity have really started,the thinking has moved on since
I last read about thischaracter, and that's been
fascinating to dive into.
Hey, thank you Phil.
Shout out to, yeah, Phil there.
Super star.
He's dude, he's a good actor.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you.
(38:05):
Thanks very much.
Well, we hope you enjoyed ittoo.
Thank you for listening.
if you did enjoy that, pleaseshare.
Please share our podcast, likerate, subscribe.
we're on Instagram, well now onYouTube properly.
I've understood.
Has worked YouTube now.
Yeah, well done.
Nice one.
but I don't think an Instagramlikes us anymore.
(38:27):
I think.
Oh, the old, it's uh, the oldalgorithms gone on the turn.
It's, it hates us a little bitof the minute, so anything you
can do to share would be very,very valuable.
Listeners, thank you very muchand we'll be back next week.
Thanks Vicki.
Thanks listeners.
Thanks.
Bye.
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