April 15, 2025 • 34 mins
Grace O'Malley: The Pirate Queen of Ireland
In this lively episode, the hosts delve into the fascinating life of Grace O'Malley, also known as Gráinne Ní Mháille or the Pirate Queen of Ireland. Born in 1530, Grace defied the social norms of her time to become an accomplished mariner, fearless leader, and shrewd political tactician. The episode explores her early life, her rebellious spirit, her encounters with the English, and her audacious meeting with Queen Elizabeth I. Relying on various biographies and historical sources, the hosts uncover how Grace O'Malley's relentless determination and strategic prowess made her one of the most formidable female figures in 16th century Ireland. Listeners are taken on a captivating journey through tales of piracy, political manoeuvring, and courageous exploits on the high seas.
Other episodes mentioned: Ching Shih and Barbe-Nicole Ponsardin
Sources:
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/grace-o-malley-pirate-history-fact-fiction-legend
https://kids.britannica.com/kids/article/Grace-OMalley/487538
https://www.womensmuseumofireland.ie/exhibits/blog-post-title-one-jwrz7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_O%27Malley
Goodnight stories for Rebel Girls
Anne Chamber book Grace O Malley: The biography of Irelands pirate queen 1530-1603
00:00 Introduction and British Tipping Culture
01:03 A Pirate's Tale: Grace O'Malley
03:15 Grace O'Malley's Early Life and Family
06:50 Grace O'Malley's Rise to Power
09:56 Pirate Queen's Strategies and Wealth
14:16 English Expansion and Grace's Defiance
16:43 Grace O'Malley's Rebellion Against the English
17:41 The Abduction of Christopher St. Lawrence
20:14 Grace O'Malley's Conflict with Richard Bingham
25:50 Grace's Desperate Plea to Queen Elizabeth I
31:25 Grace O'Malley's Legacy and Final Years
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1663295054 (00:07):
Obviously I tipped them at the end, but Why?
Because I'm British.
Oh yeah, that's lovely, thankyou.
Thank you.
Always wanted to look like aneight year old football fan.
Oh, I don't know.
I can't make it better.
It's not even hat seasonanymore.
You can't even get away with afluffy, like a woolly hat.
Oh spring has officially sprung.
(00:30):
Oh, it's lovely, isn't it?
It's lush.
Happy Equinox.
Yes, happy Equinox.
Vicky.
Hi Simon, how are you?
Yeah, very well thanks, how areyou doing?
Yeah, I'm good.
It's nice to see you.
Yeah, I'm only going to show youthis side today because of my
disastrous Turkish haircut.
I see.
(00:52):
It's a lovely side.
Thanks for giving me that side.
Thank you.
Welcome.
Yeah, my best side.
That's the best side.
I've always had it.
Yeah.
But yeah, other than that,pretty good what have you got
for us today?
I'm taking us back to our roots,which is pirates.
Yes.
So we're having another pirateyday today.
Another pirate day.
Yeah.
(01:13):
So we're going to Ireland.
Okay.
Yeah, I've got a little introfor you.
From the rugged coast of 16thcentury Ireland, A legend arose.
Ná Hvália, or Grace O'Malley,shattered conventions, leading
her clan by sea and challengingEnglish rule.
A fearless Irish chieftain,pirate queen, and the only woman
(01:35):
to negotiate directly with QueenElizabeth I, her spirit embodies
the resilience and strength ofher heritage forever etched in
Ireland's storied past.
That's so cool.
I love Crazy Money, yes.
I like that we're taking in two16th century female powerhouses.
And they meet, they actuallymeet in the story.
(01:59):
So yeah, it's a clash of thepersonalities for sure.
Yeah.
There is an amazing book whichis the main source of today.
It's by Ann Chamer who is theholy grail of all things Grace
O'Malley, called Grace O'Malley,the biographer of Ireland's
Pirate Queen, 1530 1603.
But I've that's referenced insome of the articles that I've
(02:20):
also Forbes article, we've got aBritannica article, we've got a
Women's Museum of Irelandarticle the Irish Post, and of
course, graceomali.
com.
Fabulous.
There's also a Grace O'MalleyWhiskey, which is the first
whiskey to be named after alady.
And I think it was only in the,like in 2019 it started or
(02:41):
something, like embarrassinglylate, like crazy late for it.
Yeah, that to be a fact, butanyway, so we should go and find
some of that after.
Oh, tenuously related fact thatI learned this week.
Hit me.
There are 18 letters in theIrish alphabet.
Is that it?
Yeah.
That makes so much sense.
Yeah.
Yeah, so her Irish name, myunderstanding is it's pronounced
(03:04):
Garnia Ni Walia.
Walia.
But we, I will be saying GraceO'Malley because I can pronounce
that respectfully.
That's what we're going to bedoing.
We're in Tudor times, which Idon't think we've done before.
So she was born in 1530 mostlikely off the West coast of
Ireland.
Island is an island.
(03:25):
And then off of that, on thewest coast, there's like a
smattering of islands.
It's possible that she was bornthere near Clue Bay.
She was the only daughter of herfather, Owen o Marley and her
mum margaret O Marley.
Do you know what a chieftain is?
A chieftains, like head of aclan.
Chief Chieftain.
Yep.
That's it.
The O'Malley clan were a greatseafaring clan, her dad was the
(03:50):
chieftain and it was around thistime where Henry VIII was
actually king of England, so hewas on the throne, but crucially
he held the title Lord ofIreland, so we don't really have
that title anymore.
We have Prince of Wales, don'twe, but we don't have.
Lord of Ireland.
So her father Owen was a greatleader was, their whole heritage
(04:15):
is sea bearing.
So 300 years they've been rulingthe waves.
They tend to have their income,which was collecting taxes from
anybody who passed through onthe sea.
They were pirates.
So we're not hiding the factthat she just grew up a pirate.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I was just about to ask, arethey a legitimate operation or
were they the next sentence I'vegot was they were ruthless and
(04:38):
terrorized ships trading inGalway Bay.
So I doubt it.
It doesn't sound legit.
Yeah.
300 years.
That's a long time to keep itgoing.
It's quite an arc, isn't it?
It's quite a legacy.
They taxed those who fished offtheir coasts.
They traded as well in somecoastal areas, particularly in
France and Spain, which is goingto become crucial.
(05:00):
They also built a row of castlesfacing the sea to protect their
territory.
Wow.
And in the Forbes article, youcan see the lady who wrote the
Forbes article, she goes on thisadventure, which is quite cool.
Today there might be a mix offolklore and fact.
It's really hard to define thetwo.
I've tried to rely on AnnChambers biography as much as
possible.
But there's no denying that as ayoung girl, Grace was just dying
(05:23):
to go on the ships this is whatshe wanted.
She wanted to be like her dad.
There is a story that she wastold no, and the best reason her
dad could come up with was no,because your hair's too long,
which was like an ode to herbeing a girl, basically.
I always picture male pirateswith long hair, so I don't see
why that's an issue.
(05:43):
And we're in Ireland, so it'sred hair.
It's like long, beautiful, manered hair.
Sounds incredible.
Yeah, gorgeous.
On the illustration which wasdone for the Rebel Girls book,
illustration by CatherineArnister, that's fair skin, long
red hair.
Yeah.
Stunner.
So to rebel him.
(06:05):
So he, this rebel personality iscoming in already.
She cut off her hair and thenwas like now what dad?
You said, I could go if I haveshort hair.
Yes.
So they, this earned her thenickname Garnier.
Wallo, which means, Wallo meansbold or having cropped hair.
(06:26):
And that's how that camethrough.
There's another story that onthe age of 12, she just hid on
her dad's ship anyway.
So he was going off to Spain andshe just hid under the boards.
And at that point it was toolate.
They were mid sea.
And I, we've all done that,haven't we?
We've hidden in the car boot orsomething around the back seat.
Oh yeah, I used to hide on mydad's pirate ship all the time.
(06:48):
All the time.
As with many of us, she wasmarried off really young and it
was a politically arrangedmarriage.
So she married Donald O.
Farty who was a chief of anotherpowerful family.
So it was these two big familiescoming together, much like in
our Champagne episode, there waslike one chateau and another
chateau and they wanted to cometogether.
(07:09):
Once again, Game of Thronesseems to come up in this, but
that sort of politicalmaneuvering Those sort of
settings, it's often aboutmarrying the powerful families
together.
It's consistent, isn't it,throughout history?
Yeah.
She gave him three children, shehad four in her lifetime, three
were with him.
But she hated staying at homewhile he was off at sea.
That was like the traditional,she really wasn't a fan of that
(07:30):
at all.
But fun fact, her final childwas called Tibet, he's important
later on.
He was actually born at sea, ina stage of her life when she was
on the sea.
The next day after his birth,Algerian pirates attacked their
ship and upon hearing news,Grace put her baby down, one day
old baby, less than a day old,and went and fought off the
(07:51):
pirates.
She was like, nah mate, nothappening.
Which one day postpartum, can'tcomplain.
That's very cool.
Impressive.
Yeah.
Her husband, as with many of ourstories, was killed in battle
quite young.
And this was around the early1560s but Grace She was working
(08:11):
the ships and she had thislegacy with her father.
She commanded such great loyaltyamong the men that actually they
followed her when she wanted tomove the headquarters to Clare
Island and she actuallysucceeded her husband and began
building up her own Mali empire.
on the scene.
So that idea of that rebelliousstreak and that leadership kind
(08:33):
of vibe.
Yeah.
The second she got anopportunity, she took it and she
was like, I'm going to.
We've had a few now, haven't we?
Where they marry into an alreadypowerful Yes.
Like their husband is powerful,their husband dies mysteriously.
Mysteriously.
And they, but they managed tothen take over the power and she
(08:55):
must have built up quite areputation then and not have
been, just the wife.
Yeah.
And also it took such a lot ofskill.
Let's not underestimate howdifficult being a pirate on the
west coast of Ireland was.
It's a brutal sea, isn't it?
It's a brutal sea.
It's tough.
It's dangerous.
It's the Atlantic Ocean.
(09:16):
You need knowledge of that sea.
You need to know its tides.
You need to know its currents.
You need to know when theunpredictable weather might
come.
So in terms of seasons you needto be able to navigate by star
and compass.
There's no GPS or anything.
And you needed, mostimportantly, you needed to know
when it was safe to sail and tostay.
(09:37):
So she was really good at that.
Navigating the ocean in terms ofthat, in terms of when it's best
to stay on land and when it'sbest to go in the sea.
She respected the ocean, whichis absolutely paramount for her
life as a pirate.
And I think it was that they sawand wanted to follow her.
When she was leader of thisclan, she went full on pirate.
(10:02):
Her piracy took her as far asSpain.
Interestingly, pirates can dothings on land, which I didn't
know.
In Ireland, it was reallyinteresting chieftains were not
by How your power wasn'tmeasured in terms of how many
acres of land you had So it'snot like I don't know if you've
seen Yellowstone, but they'relike as far as the valley what I
(10:23):
have.
Everyone's talking aboutYellowstone at the moment.
We've started it.
It's quite a tough watch I'dsay.
Yeah It's not a cosy watch, it'squite a brutal watch, I think.
Yeah, and I've heard that notmuch happens for a long time,
and then suddenly something Isay incredible, terrible, really
dramatic happens, and then it'snothing for a while.
(10:45):
Also, I'm pretty sure one ofthem is a serial killer and no
one's saying it.
They all know it.
Just they're like, oh, he killedso and he killed so and he
killed And no one's reallygiving it that label of, I think
you're a serial killer.
He's a character, isn't he?
Yes, that's it.
He's a cheeky little lad.
It's not like he's a serialkiller.
(11:05):
Just a genuine serial killer.
Much like Yellowstone, capital'sreally important.
It was so important thatActually, it was how many cattle
you had, rather than the acresthat you had, what meant your
power, which I didn't know.
So therefore cattle raidingwhich is, as you would expect,
the pirates want to getinvolved.
(11:27):
They just want to get involvedand steal the cattle So she
would do her life on the shipsand then when she was at home,
she would just steal cows.
It's crazy, isn't it?
That's mad.
I've never heard of a cow piratebefore.
A cow pirate?
On the sea.
So her ships are actually Vikingships.
(11:48):
They would carry about 200 menthey had a Latin or a triangular
sail, which made them verynimble and a lot more easy to
manoeuvre, which gave her a realgood advantage.
They were shallow and they wereclinker built, which means that
the boards that made the shipsso they're wooden.
(12:08):
And would be lengthways and theywould overlap each other.
It looks quite pretty when youlook them up It's almost like
petals like going up on the sideand they were powered by 30
oars.
So like proper viking style, youknow Just about to ask about the
oars.
So they have to sail as well fora bit of maneuverability, but it
was still It was manpower to getthem shifting.
(12:30):
Yeah, especially because theywould sail really close to the
shoreline They were a kind ofship that you could get really
close Like I said, Grace is,she's got her hands in lots of
pies.
She also develops a new type ofpiracy.
Beyond the cows, which is all.
She starts charging people, soshe implements a toll for taking
(12:52):
safe passage across the sea.
She maintained that they werelooking to pass illegally
through the waters.
So she would control thesewaters and show who was allowed
in and who was allowed out.
If you were allowed in, you hadto be charged a tax.
That's because the sea thatwe're talking about is crazy.
The sea that we're talking aboutis a busy route from traffic
(13:13):
coming up through Spain to thebusy port of Galway and onwards
to Scotland.
So it was like a rat run, forships.
And she fully capitalised onthat.
It's just amazing, isn't it, tothink, I'm going to do this, and
I just do it without,repercussions, and it's quite a
(13:33):
serious undertaking.
She's a pirate.
It's illegal because I've justinvented this law.
That says it is, on whoseauthority?
Mine.
So the Amalis themselves, like Isaid, her dad had links with
Spain, so they do have this longestablished trade relationship.
With people in Spain and theyimported iron different weapons,
sometimes wine, and theyexchanged them for things that
(13:55):
the island couldn't allow them.
So whether that be differenttypes of skin, hide, leather,
all that kind of stuff.
Okay.
By the end of this she becamereally wealthy because this is
like an empire of what she's gotgoing on.
She's got, all these ships,she's got all these different
business revenues, she'ssmashing it on the sea.
So that's what Grace is up to.
(14:16):
Wider context is England areexpanding into Ireland.
At first, they're not toobothered about Grace.
They leave her to her owndevices.
But it's really important tonote that Ireland in itself was
becoming under much more controlof the English.
Lots of Irish chieftains weregiving up their power to the
(14:38):
English.
And from when Grace was littleall the way through, Ireland Had
so many challenges in terms ofsocial upheaval, political
upheaval, lots of old Gaeliclaws were swept away because the
Tudors were trying to reconquestIreland following, Norman times
(14:58):
They were trying to get hold,back hold of Ireland.
This ramps up.
So in the 1570s, this idea ofconquesting Ireland really takes
hold because of Queen ElizabethI.
She fears that her enemies, whowere King Philip II of Spain and
Pope Pius V, would use Irelandas a backdoor to attack England.
(15:21):
So this is like Spanish Armada,that kind of vibe.
Yeah, it's interesting that thePope is considered an enemy.
Sounds like the Pope got farmore involved back in those
days.
That happened in was it theZenobia story?
Suddenly the Pope just was like,in control of the conflict and
(15:43):
it was like, to me, what?
Who are you?
So yes, Queen Elizabeth I is abit nervous.
What does Grace do?
She double downs on being apirate.
She should go hard or go home.
She became so pirate y, that shegot complaints from the English.
For example, she tried to onetime to like compromise with the
(16:06):
English because she could tellshe was getting on the nerves
and she offered 200 of her mento serve in the English army.
But while she did that, she thenwent behind their backs and
robbed their ships.
The classic misdirection.
This is not the It's I don'tthink you get it, yeah.
Wow, these English are lookingreally annoyed at me.
(16:27):
I know what'll help.
I know, this'll help, yeah, forsure.
Take their mind off it.
Gall of it.
That's incredible.
You know earlier where I waslike, oh, they didn't really
take much notice of her.
Now that now she's pissed themoff.
Understandably.
Yeah.
So what does she do?
She aligns more closely withother Irish Lords who were
(16:48):
planning the rebellion againstthe English.
And at this time, like I said,she does have an empire.
She has 20 ships over hundredsof men, 200, 300, 400 men.
And she's well respected.
She's fearless as a leader.
And that is what she know isknown as both on land and sea.
And she's resilient.
She's been doing this since shewas 12.
(17:09):
This is, she's very experiencedAn English Lord once referred to
her as the nurse of allrebellions in this province for
40 years.
That quote shows how popular shewas in her homeland.
Just a little example of How herreputation was cemented was that
she visited Dublin one time andshe wanted to visit Howth Castle
(17:31):
and visit Lord Howth.
However, when she got there, thefamily were like she was told by
the footman, Oh no, we'reactually there at dinner.
We're going to close the castlegate.
I'm sorry, He's busy.
And then what she did was sheabducted his grandson and heir,
Christopher St.
Lawrence.
My laughter isn't advocating forkidnap, but it's like a
(17:59):
retaliation, like, how dare youdeny me entry to the castle.
And then to release him, theypromised that they would keep
the gates open for unexpectedvisitors and they would set an
extra place at every meal.
In case she dropped by.
Oh my god.
(18:20):
They also gave her a ring as apledge of the agreement, like to
cement the agreement.
That ring is still in possessionof the O'Malley family today.
Oh wow, the family's stillaround?
Yeah, Do you have any idea howmany cattle they have?
No, I don't.
We should go and find out.
And then we should ploy, tosteal them.
(18:42):
Also just a Little side thing isthat there's a Grace O'Malley
road in health, which is likethe honor the debacle that
happened Yeah, you have to payto go down it.
I should think so.
It only seems right Doesn't it?
It's what she would have wantedSo you have a healthy family or
something like I said, theEnglish influence is growing,
(19:04):
and Grace is being quite brashabout things.
But actually, at one point, shedoes find herself at a
disadvantage.
We're now in the But she's 50,60 years old at this she's,
yeah, 50.
That's a good point though, isthat she lives a really long
life.
Really long.
And that I think is if you'regetting in this many fights,
(19:26):
it's like testament to like, howgood a fighter you were, and
just how loyal the people aroundyou must be.
To protect you.
Yeah, to protect you rather thantake over.
Or against you thing.
Yeah, pirates are very good atdemocracy, to be fair.
They are quite, they do have amany a system in there.
There's this really cool bookcalled Be More Pirate, which is
(19:47):
I'd recommend.
And it's, they, and we've spokenabout it in the Ching Shih
episode that equality was athing that, she had them
Amazonians around her and thatshe, advocated that.
So I don't mind a bit of piratesociety.
Not dissuade.
Balance it out, they've gotkidnapping, beheading, but on
(20:11):
balance.
So the English really turn upthe heat on Grace they appoint
her.
arched nemesis, he becomesRichard Bingham.
He was appointed the Englishgovernor of Connaught, which is
a province in western, northwestish kind of island.
And they got on at first, butthen it really came to blows.
(20:34):
His sole purpose of beingappointed was to agro, because
they knew how powerful she was.
Yeah.
So a lot, it's, it goes a bitback and forth, and I'll talk
about that a little bit, butthis Richard guy did not hold
anything back.
He knew that the Irish werefeisty, and he wanted to be
(20:56):
antagonistic, and heparticularly felt in Grace's
case that she had oversteppedwomanhood.
She had gone out of her lane asa woman, so there's like that
misogyny undertone.
So Richard's brother trickedOwen, who is Grace's eldest son.
(21:17):
And the idea is that Richardegged his brother on to take
advantage of him.
And It ended in a duel, and Obinwas killed directly as a result
from Richard egging him on, alittle bit like Hamilton, where
they're like, bad mouthing andthen fights.
So Richard lures Grace into hisheadquarters under the guise of
(21:40):
a truce.
Okay.
They've been at blows, they'vebeen at trade wars, they've been
fighting, like I said,rebellions on the side.
And when he lures her to hisheadquarters, he proclaims her a
traitor and condemns her todeath.
She's then rescued by her ownpeople.
She really should have seen thatcoming.
Yeah, I it did get a bit messyin the research, but it is, the
(22:01):
tension between them is sostrong, I can't underestimate
that.
And she might have been wantingto flip it around on him, you
don't know.
Yeah.
The, I guess the point of thisstory is that she was seen as so
important as a leader and sovalued as a leader that her
people came together andactually gave over hostages that
(22:22):
they'd had to release her.
Yeah, because they really valueGrace's leadership.
Bingham then retaliated again byconfiscating all that cattle
that she's built up and droveher off land and forcing her to
live on the sea in the galleyship.
So he takes over her land, whichis not great.
Grace flees to Ulster to consultwith her allies who are also
(22:46):
plotting against the British byuniting the Irish.
So it's a common enemy here.
I imagine a lot of Irish didn'tlove her for stealing their
cattle and kidnapping theirgrandkids, but it's a bigger
enemy, isn't it?
That's a really good insight,actually.
And you can tell it's thisbigger piece because they need
help from the King of Spain todrive the English out of
(23:08):
Ireland.
So much like Queen Elizabeth wasfearing that happens in 1587.
In 1588, the Spanish Armada isdriven by the bad weather to its
doom.
Bingham is still avenging Grace.
He's still mad at Grace.
He takes terrible revenge on herand her relations, particularly
for helping the Spanish.
It all comes out.
Grace then retaliates and thenthey declare an all out war.
(23:31):
So her and Bingham become aproper war now.
It's about how this hasescalated, isn't it?
It sounds like it startedbecause the English were worried
about A Spanish invasion throughIreland that wasn't happening
and now they've united the Irishagainst them, united the Irish
with the Spanish, created anactual war.
They've just ended up causingway more actual problems than
(23:53):
the hypothetical one that theydidn't have in the first place.
Yeah, it's every man out forhimself, isn't it?
It's very much that.
In 1859, Bingham accused Graceof treason and starting
rebellions against the English.
Shock, horror.
And then Sounds like a fairaccusation.
There was a little a side notethere.
It's the first time he reportsher to Queen Elizabeth.
(24:15):
It's oh, okay.
Miss.
So he's just been trying tohandle this all on his own.
Yeah, because that's his job.
That's the whole reason he'sbeen appointed.
He's gonna be like, don't worry,I've got it.
I'm gonna cause absolute havoc.
The other thing that he does ishe even tries to get Grace's
family to Become allies withhim.
So they try to like double backthis obviously makes Grace
(24:38):
absolutely furious andintensifies her efforts against
Bingham It's ridiculous and he'snot really getting anywhere it's
not until no 91 where he doesthe scorched earth tactic Which
is just taking every little bitof resource possible off them,
isn't it?
It's like cutting off supplies,it's contraband, it's stealing
(25:03):
their ship, it's every you fightthem down where they can't even
put up a fight anymore.
They just nick all thoseresources.
Okay up until now, RichardBingham sounds a bit like Wile
E.
Coyote against the Roadrunner,just always failing in all of
his things, and he's justinstead kicking the whole place.
Absolute analogy, brilliant.
She then strikes back and seizeshis ship.
(25:28):
I love it.
And then by 1952, Grace isgetting a bit desperate because
she's lost all her resourcesnow.
This is the point.
I'm just imagining Richard goingalong with a massive pump.
She's Aha! At last! Oh, forGod's sake, she's got my ship.
She's stolen the ship.
Steve, you were meant to bewatching the ship.
(25:50):
So in desperation in 1592, Gracewrites a letter to Queen
Elizabeth the first, telling herthat this guy's just being a bit
of a prick here I don't thinkhe's treating me very fairly.
And she seeks redress.
Then it intensifies.
Oh, mate, it intensifies again.
(26:10):
1593.
Richard arrests Grace's brother,and also her son, Theobald, for
treason.
And this is a crime that ispunishable by death.
So he actually does thearresting at this point.
And then he imprisons them inAlthrone Castle.
In order to save her son's life,Grace takes voyage and embarks
(26:35):
on this really treacherousjourney to to London, which
involves going round the southcoast of Ireland and up through.
Really dangerous, and shebasically takes it on herself to
be like, sod this, I'm going toGreenwich Palace I'm gonna go
and see the Queen.
Grace at this point is 63.
(26:56):
It's absolutely amazing.
The biographer Ann Chambers saysthat her motivation was just
being a mother.
She's just trying to save thelife of her child.
As you can imagine, trying toget an audience Queen Elizabeth
I is not easy.
That's not a just thing whereyou call up and make an
appointment, right?
So Grace had to, when she gotthere, she had to use all her
(27:17):
political skills and savvinessand navigate the Tudor court.
To allow herself in and there'seven proof of this in English
state papers, which is reallycool.
So what she was trying to do inthose conversations that she
had, she even wrote a petitionto the Queen to answer a series
of questions, so you can't justwalk in.
(27:39):
But it also shows how savvy shewas politically and how she knew
what, she was happy to followprocedure to do that.
And she must have been to havelasted this long.
I don't think you can last thislong in such a, like a role with
such jeopardy associated with itwithout knowing how to play both
(27:59):
enforcer and like politicalmaneuvering, all of that.
You've gotta be the wholepackage, aren't you?
Yeah, and I think she seesherself on the same standing as
Queenland first.
She doesn't see her as anydifferent.
She sees them as peers, which Ireally like.
There is a story that sherefused to bow to the Queen,
which is absolute sacrilege inBritain.
(28:20):
You cannot do that.
And there was also a story thatshe'd brought a dagger to, for,
what would you call it, selfdefense, which to me is not that
far fetched.
If you're a pirate, there'sprobably going to be a dagger on
your person.
But there is some like folklorethat this was made the whole
meeting go awry and that QueenElizabeth was absolutely
(28:41):
outraged that a knife or adagger managed to get into her
court and Actually, in reality,it probably isn't that big a
deal.
It was probably the issue thatthe guards were more upset than
Queen Elizabeth.
That's the vibe I'm getting fromthe biography.
But it does show that therewould have been a clash of
cultures in this meeting.
So you've got, very differentupbringings, you've got very
(29:02):
different, these women boththink they're top of their game
and, it's a huge clash, Irelandand British English culture.
Another example of this is thatGrace, I don't really know, she
was offered a handkerchief by alady and waiting to blow her
nose.
And then in Ireland, it'sbecause to blow your nose and
throw it in the fire.
That was customary at the time.
(29:23):
It was dirty.
You wanted to get rid ofdisease, but in the English
court, apparently that causeduproar.
it's, oh, you can just imaginethe Daily Mail headlines.
Blame head pirate.
Disrespects lady and lady.
Yeah, absolutely.
But that doesn't mean themeeting didn't go well.
(29:45):
It went really well from Grace'spoint of view.
She managed to secure therelease of her family members.
So both her brother and her son.
She even got a promise from theQueen to have a different
person, an English Lord, stepdown from his position.
And, Bingham's out.
Yeah, I think it was Bingham,but it took a long time.
(30:07):
She also managed to get her landreturned to her that Bingham had
stolen in this meeting.
And she got commitment that shewas allowed to continue her
career at sea.
So that's what she negotiated.
She got everything in support ofno longer supporting the Irish
Rebellion.
That's what she gave back.
Oh, okay.
(30:27):
So Queen Elizabeth was happy togive all this in exchange for
that.
That's really the only thing shecould offer, isn't it?
What else do you offer a queen?
For sure, but she got all ofthat.
All of that back, which remindedme so much of Ching Shih and her
negotiations at the end of herlife.
Do you remember?
When they were She even got apension, didn't she?
And the release of all of hermen.
(30:48):
Yeah.
And she got to keep all thetreasure.
Yeah, these women know, theyknow how to negotiate, they know
very much the ins and outs ofit.
It's remarkable.
The reason it took so long forBingham to be recalled was
because he actually disagreedwith Queen Elizabeth I's
decision and therefore didn't doit.
That's classic Bingham,absolutely classic Bingham.
He just didn't want botheredmate, couldn't be bothered with
(31:11):
that.
And I think one of the reasonsthat went so awry was because
obviously Grace went back toIreland.
He's still in Ireland, so shewas relaying the message to him.
So I guess there's maybe a trustissue there.
Yeah, understandably.
Eventually though Bingham isrecalled to English court and
Grace carries on piratingthrough her battles all the way
(31:33):
to the end of her life there area lot more that she gets
involved in and a lot morebattles, but in 1603, Grace
eventually dies of naturalcauses at Rock Street.
73 years old.
It's a lot, isn't it?
That's amazing for, yeah, forthat era.
I love it.
She yeah.
(31:54):
Not advocating for piracy.
But, again, sounds like she didit spectacularly well.
There's a really lovely quotefrom the book that says Grace,
that was, she was quote, anaccomplished marina, fearless
leader, shrewd politicaltactician, independent
businesswoman, ruthlessplunderer, mercenary, rebel, and
(32:15):
a woman who refused to allow anybarrier obstruct her quest.
She commanded loyalty becauseshe was braver than most And I
do that sort of belligerentattitude rather than of looking
at the rules and seeing what youcan do within them saying Those
rules are stupid.
(32:35):
Here's what I'm going to do.
And just she really made thingshappen.
She's very effective by thesounds of it.
Yeah.
And she's absolutely adored inIrish culture, much like she was
in her heyday.
There's a a statue in WestportHouse in County Mayo.
And it's a very cool statue.
I think it's a bronze one.
And she's got a head up, she'sgot her hand on her sword, it's
(33:00):
very cool.
And like I said, she's got sucha legacy in Ireland, and she's
had loads of different impactsin culture.
She's inspired lots ofliterature and, They do
celebrate her a lot in Ireland.
I always think that she shouldbe I really like the idea that
we should have women patronsaints.
You have St.
Patrick's Day.
(33:20):
I'd love the idea of a St.
Grace's Day.
Grace's Day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We should have one for eachcountry.
We just go out and ride a cow.
Yeah, let's just do it.
And then everyone dresses up asa pirate.
So yeah, that's the story ofGrace O'Malley.
Grace's One of those inparticular, I would love to see
how she'd have got on if shewere born in this era.
(33:42):
What that attitude, where thatwould have got her, where piracy
is pretty rare in these partsthese days, but how would that
attitude and that sort ofbelligerence and determination
combined with her politicalmanoeuvring, her skill as a
businesswoman.
Which is very Yellowstone, youhaven't seen Yellowstone.
These are themes that comeacross Yellowstone quite a bit.
(34:03):
So maybe it's not thatdifferent.
I don't know.
thank you, Vicky.
I enjoyed that enormously.
Yay! It was funny.
It was a good one.
It's funny.
She's just straight up badass.
I love it.
Yeah.
And just the idea that you cando it.
Yeah, of course I can do that.
Of course, yeah, of course,yeah.
audio2572508189-1 (34:30):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She changed history@gmail.com.
Obviously I tipped them at the end, but Why?
Because I'm British.
Oh yeah, that's lovely, thankyou.
Thank you.
Always wanted to look like aneight year old football fan.
Oh, I don't know.
I can't make it better.
It's not even hat seasonanymore.
You can't even get away with afluffy, like a woolly hat.
Oh spring has officially sprung.
(00:30):
Oh, it's lovely, isn't it?
It's lush.
Happy Equinox.
Yes, happy Equinox.
Vicky.
Hi Simon, how are you?
Yeah, very well thanks, how areyou doing?
Yeah, I'm good.
It's nice to see you.
Yeah, I'm only going to show youthis side today because of my
disastrous Turkish haircut.
I see.
(00:52):
It's a lovely side.
Thanks for giving me that side.
Thank you.
Welcome.
Yeah, my best side.
That's the best side.
I've always had it.
Yeah.
But yeah, other than that,pretty good what have you got
for us today?
I'm taking us back to our roots,which is pirates.
Yes.
So we're having another pirateyday today.
Another pirate day.
Yeah.
(01:13):
So we're going to Ireland.
Okay.
Yeah, I've got a little introfor you.
From the rugged coast of 16thcentury Ireland, A legend arose.
Ná Hvália, or Grace O'Malley,shattered conventions, leading
her clan by sea and challengingEnglish rule.
A fearless Irish chieftain,pirate queen, and the only woman
(01:35):
to negotiate directly with QueenElizabeth I, her spirit embodies
the resilience and strength ofher heritage forever etched in
Ireland's storied past.
That's so cool.
I love Crazy Money, yes.
I like that we're taking in two16th century female powerhouses.
And they meet, they actuallymeet in the story.
(01:59):
So yeah, it's a clash of thepersonalities for sure.
Yeah.
There is an amazing book whichis the main source of today.
It's by Ann Chamer who is theholy grail of all things Grace
O'Malley, called Grace O'Malley,the biographer of Ireland's
Pirate Queen, 1530 1603.
But I've that's referenced insome of the articles that I've
(02:20):
also Forbes article, we've got aBritannica article, we've got a
Women's Museum of Irelandarticle the Irish Post, and of
course, graceomali.
com.
Fabulous.
There's also a Grace O'MalleyWhiskey, which is the first
whiskey to be named after alady.
And I think it was only in the,like in 2019 it started or
(02:41):
something, like embarrassinglylate, like crazy late for it.
Yeah, that to be a fact, butanyway, so we should go and find
some of that after.
Oh, tenuously related fact thatI learned this week.
Hit me.
There are 18 letters in theIrish alphabet.
Is that it?
Yeah.
That makes so much sense.
Yeah.
Yeah, so her Irish name, myunderstanding is it's pronounced
(03:04):
Garnia Ni Walia.
Walia.
But we, I will be saying GraceO'Malley because I can pronounce
that respectfully.
That's what we're going to bedoing.
We're in Tudor times, which Idon't think we've done before.
So she was born in 1530 mostlikely off the West coast of
Ireland.
Island is an island.
(03:25):
And then off of that, on thewest coast, there's like a
smattering of islands.
It's possible that she was bornthere near Clue Bay.
She was the only daughter of herfather, Owen o Marley and her
mum margaret O Marley.
Do you know what a chieftain is?
A chieftains, like head of aclan.
Chief Chieftain.
Yep.
That's it.
The O'Malley clan were a greatseafaring clan, her dad was the
(03:50):
chieftain and it was around thistime where Henry VIII was
actually king of England, so hewas on the throne, but crucially
he held the title Lord ofIreland, so we don't really have
that title anymore.
We have Prince of Wales, don'twe, but we don't have.
Lord of Ireland.
So her father Owen was a greatleader was, their whole heritage
(04:15):
is sea bearing.
So 300 years they've been rulingthe waves.
They tend to have their income,which was collecting taxes from
anybody who passed through onthe sea.
They were pirates.
So we're not hiding the factthat she just grew up a pirate.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I was just about to ask, arethey a legitimate operation or
were they the next sentence I'vegot was they were ruthless and
(04:38):
terrorized ships trading inGalway Bay.
So I doubt it.
It doesn't sound legit.
Yeah.
300 years.
That's a long time to keep itgoing.
It's quite an arc, isn't it?
It's quite a legacy.
They taxed those who fished offtheir coasts.
They traded as well in somecoastal areas, particularly in
France and Spain, which is goingto become crucial.
(05:00):
They also built a row of castlesfacing the sea to protect their
territory.
Wow.
And in the Forbes article, youcan see the lady who wrote the
Forbes article, she goes on thisadventure, which is quite cool.
Today there might be a mix offolklore and fact.
It's really hard to define thetwo.
I've tried to rely on AnnChambers biography as much as
possible.
But there's no denying that as ayoung girl, Grace was just dying
(05:23):
to go on the ships this is whatshe wanted.
She wanted to be like her dad.
There is a story that she wastold no, and the best reason her
dad could come up with was no,because your hair's too long,
which was like an ode to herbeing a girl, basically.
I always picture male pirateswith long hair, so I don't see
why that's an issue.
(05:43):
And we're in Ireland, so it'sred hair.
It's like long, beautiful, manered hair.
Sounds incredible.
Yeah, gorgeous.
On the illustration which wasdone for the Rebel Girls book,
illustration by CatherineArnister, that's fair skin, long
red hair.
Yeah.
Stunner.
So to rebel him.
(06:05):
So he, this rebel personality iscoming in already.
She cut off her hair and thenwas like now what dad?
You said, I could go if I haveshort hair.
Yes.
So they, this earned her thenickname Garnier.
Wallo, which means, Wallo meansbold or having cropped hair.
(06:26):
And that's how that camethrough.
There's another story that onthe age of 12, she just hid on
her dad's ship anyway.
So he was going off to Spain andshe just hid under the boards.
And at that point it was toolate.
They were mid sea.
And I, we've all done that,haven't we?
We've hidden in the car boot orsomething around the back seat.
Oh yeah, I used to hide on mydad's pirate ship all the time.
(06:48):
All the time.
As with many of us, she wasmarried off really young and it
was a politically arrangedmarriage.
So she married Donald O.
Farty who was a chief of anotherpowerful family.
So it was these two big familiescoming together, much like in
our Champagne episode, there waslike one chateau and another
chateau and they wanted to cometogether.
(07:09):
Once again, Game of Thronesseems to come up in this, but
that sort of politicalmaneuvering Those sort of
settings, it's often aboutmarrying the powerful families
together.
It's consistent, isn't it,throughout history?
Yeah.
She gave him three children, shehad four in her lifetime, three
were with him.
But she hated staying at homewhile he was off at sea.
That was like the traditional,she really wasn't a fan of that
(07:30):
at all.
But fun fact, her final childwas called Tibet, he's important
later on.
He was actually born at sea, ina stage of her life when she was
on the sea.
The next day after his birth,Algerian pirates attacked their
ship and upon hearing news,Grace put her baby down, one day
old baby, less than a day old,and went and fought off the
(07:51):
pirates.
She was like, nah mate, nothappening.
Which one day postpartum, can'tcomplain.
That's very cool.
Impressive.
Yeah.
Her husband, as with many of ourstories, was killed in battle
quite young.
And this was around the early1560s but Grace She was working
(08:11):
the ships and she had thislegacy with her father.
She commanded such great loyaltyamong the men that actually they
followed her when she wanted tomove the headquarters to Clare
Island and she actuallysucceeded her husband and began
building up her own Mali empire.
on the scene.
So that idea of that rebelliousstreak and that leadership kind
(08:33):
of vibe.
Yeah.
The second she got anopportunity, she took it and she
was like, I'm going to.
We've had a few now, haven't we?
Where they marry into an alreadypowerful Yes.
Like their husband is powerful,their husband dies mysteriously.
Mysteriously.
And they, but they managed tothen take over the power and she
(08:55):
must have built up quite areputation then and not have
been, just the wife.
Yeah.
And also it took such a lot ofskill.
Let's not underestimate howdifficult being a pirate on the
west coast of Ireland was.
It's a brutal sea, isn't it?
It's a brutal sea.
It's tough.
It's dangerous.
It's the Atlantic Ocean.
(09:16):
You need knowledge of that sea.
You need to know its tides.
You need to know its currents.
You need to know when theunpredictable weather might
come.
So in terms of seasons you needto be able to navigate by star
and compass.
There's no GPS or anything.
And you needed, mostimportantly, you needed to know
when it was safe to sail and tostay.
(09:37):
So she was really good at that.
Navigating the ocean in terms ofthat, in terms of when it's best
to stay on land and when it'sbest to go in the sea.
She respected the ocean, whichis absolutely paramount for her
life as a pirate.
And I think it was that they sawand wanted to follow her.
When she was leader of thisclan, she went full on pirate.
(10:02):
Her piracy took her as far asSpain.
Interestingly, pirates can dothings on land, which I didn't
know.
In Ireland, it was reallyinteresting chieftains were not
by How your power wasn'tmeasured in terms of how many
acres of land you had So it'snot like I don't know if you've
seen Yellowstone, but they'relike as far as the valley what I
(10:23):
have.
Everyone's talking aboutYellowstone at the moment.
We've started it.
It's quite a tough watch I'dsay.
Yeah It's not a cosy watch, it'squite a brutal watch, I think.
Yeah, and I've heard that notmuch happens for a long time,
and then suddenly something Isay incredible, terrible, really
dramatic happens, and then it'snothing for a while.
(10:45):
Also, I'm pretty sure one ofthem is a serial killer and no
one's saying it.
They all know it.
Just they're like, oh, he killedso and he killed so and he
killed And no one's reallygiving it that label of, I think
you're a serial killer.
He's a character, isn't he?
Yes, that's it.
He's a cheeky little lad.
It's not like he's a serialkiller.
(11:05):
Just a genuine serial killer.
Much like Yellowstone, capital'sreally important.
It was so important thatActually, it was how many cattle
you had, rather than the acresthat you had, what meant your
power, which I didn't know.
So therefore cattle raidingwhich is, as you would expect,
the pirates want to getinvolved.
(11:27):
They just want to get involvedand steal the cattle So she
would do her life on the shipsand then when she was at home,
she would just steal cows.
It's crazy, isn't it?
That's mad.
I've never heard of a cow piratebefore.
A cow pirate?
On the sea.
So her ships are actually Vikingships.
(11:48):
They would carry about 200 menthey had a Latin or a triangular
sail, which made them verynimble and a lot more easy to
manoeuvre, which gave her a realgood advantage.
They were shallow and they wereclinker built, which means that
the boards that made the shipsso they're wooden.
(12:08):
And would be lengthways and theywould overlap each other.
It looks quite pretty when youlook them up It's almost like
petals like going up on the sideand they were powered by 30
oars.
So like proper viking style, youknow Just about to ask about the
oars.
So they have to sail as well fora bit of maneuverability, but it
was still It was manpower to getthem shifting.
(12:30):
Yeah, especially because theywould sail really close to the
shoreline They were a kind ofship that you could get really
close Like I said, Grace is,she's got her hands in lots of
pies.
She also develops a new type ofpiracy.
Beyond the cows, which is all.
She starts charging people, soshe implements a toll for taking
(12:52):
safe passage across the sea.
She maintained that they werelooking to pass illegally
through the waters.
So she would control thesewaters and show who was allowed
in and who was allowed out.
If you were allowed in, you hadto be charged a tax.
That's because the sea thatwe're talking about is crazy.
The sea that we're talking aboutis a busy route from traffic
(13:13):
coming up through Spain to thebusy port of Galway and onwards
to Scotland.
So it was like a rat run, forships.
And she fully capitalised onthat.
It's just amazing, isn't it, tothink, I'm going to do this, and
I just do it without,repercussions, and it's quite a
(13:33):
serious undertaking.
She's a pirate.
It's illegal because I've justinvented this law.
That says it is, on whoseauthority?
Mine.
So the Amalis themselves, like Isaid, her dad had links with
Spain, so they do have this longestablished trade relationship.
With people in Spain and theyimported iron different weapons,
sometimes wine, and theyexchanged them for things that
(13:55):
the island couldn't allow them.
So whether that be differenttypes of skin, hide, leather,
all that kind of stuff.
Okay.
By the end of this she becamereally wealthy because this is
like an empire of what she's gotgoing on.
She's got, all these ships,she's got all these different
business revenues, she'ssmashing it on the sea.
So that's what Grace is up to.
(14:16):
Wider context is England areexpanding into Ireland.
At first, they're not toobothered about Grace.
They leave her to her owndevices.
But it's really important tonote that Ireland in itself was
becoming under much more controlof the English.
Lots of Irish chieftains weregiving up their power to the
(14:38):
English.
And from when Grace was littleall the way through, Ireland Had
so many challenges in terms ofsocial upheaval, political
upheaval, lots of old Gaeliclaws were swept away because the
Tudors were trying to reconquestIreland following, Norman times
(14:58):
They were trying to get hold,back hold of Ireland.
This ramps up.
So in the 1570s, this idea ofconquesting Ireland really takes
hold because of Queen ElizabethI.
She fears that her enemies, whowere King Philip II of Spain and
Pope Pius V, would use Irelandas a backdoor to attack England.
(15:21):
So this is like Spanish Armada,that kind of vibe.
Yeah, it's interesting that thePope is considered an enemy.
Sounds like the Pope got farmore involved back in those
days.
That happened in was it theZenobia story?
Suddenly the Pope just was like,in control of the conflict and
(15:43):
it was like, to me, what?
Who are you?
So yes, Queen Elizabeth I is abit nervous.
What does Grace do?
She double downs on being apirate.
She should go hard or go home.
She became so pirate y, that shegot complaints from the English.
For example, she tried to onetime to like compromise with the
(16:06):
English because she could tellshe was getting on the nerves
and she offered 200 of her mento serve in the English army.
But while she did that, she thenwent behind their backs and
robbed their ships.
The classic misdirection.
This is not the It's I don'tthink you get it, yeah.
Wow, these English are lookingreally annoyed at me.
(16:27):
I know what'll help.
I know, this'll help, yeah, forsure.
Take their mind off it.
Gall of it.
That's incredible.
You know earlier where I waslike, oh, they didn't really
take much notice of her.
Now that now she's pissed themoff.
Understandably.
Yeah.
So what does she do?
She aligns more closely withother Irish Lords who were
(16:48):
planning the rebellion againstthe English.
And at this time, like I said,she does have an empire.
She has 20 ships over hundredsof men, 200, 300, 400 men.
And she's well respected.
She's fearless as a leader.
And that is what she know isknown as both on land and sea.
And she's resilient.
She's been doing this since shewas 12.
(17:09):
This is, she's very experiencedAn English Lord once referred to
her as the nurse of allrebellions in this province for
40 years.
That quote shows how popular shewas in her homeland.
Just a little example of How herreputation was cemented was that
she visited Dublin one time andshe wanted to visit Howth Castle
(17:31):
and visit Lord Howth.
However, when she got there, thefamily were like she was told by
the footman, Oh no, we'reactually there at dinner.
We're going to close the castlegate.
I'm sorry, He's busy.
And then what she did was sheabducted his grandson and heir,
Christopher St.
Lawrence.
My laughter isn't advocating forkidnap, but it's like a
(17:59):
retaliation, like, how dare youdeny me entry to the castle.
And then to release him, theypromised that they would keep
the gates open for unexpectedvisitors and they would set an
extra place at every meal.
In case she dropped by.
Oh my god.
(18:20):
They also gave her a ring as apledge of the agreement, like to
cement the agreement.
That ring is still in possessionof the O'Malley family today.
Oh wow, the family's stillaround?
Yeah, Do you have any idea howmany cattle they have?
No, I don't.
We should go and find out.
And then we should ploy, tosteal them.
(18:42):
Also just a Little side thing isthat there's a Grace O'Malley
road in health, which is likethe honor the debacle that
happened Yeah, you have to payto go down it.
I should think so.
It only seems right Doesn't it?
It's what she would have wantedSo you have a healthy family or
something like I said, theEnglish influence is growing,
(19:04):
and Grace is being quite brashabout things.
But actually, at one point, shedoes find herself at a
disadvantage.
We're now in the But she's 50,60 years old at this she's,
yeah, 50.
That's a good point though, isthat she lives a really long
life.
Really long.
And that I think is if you'regetting in this many fights,
(19:26):
it's like testament to like, howgood a fighter you were, and
just how loyal the people aroundyou must be.
To protect you.
Yeah, to protect you rather thantake over.
Or against you thing.
Yeah, pirates are very good atdemocracy, to be fair.
They are quite, they do have amany a system in there.
There's this really cool bookcalled Be More Pirate, which is
(19:47):
I'd recommend.
And it's, they, and we've spokenabout it in the Ching Shih
episode that equality was athing that, she had them
Amazonians around her and thatshe, advocated that.
So I don't mind a bit of piratesociety.
Not dissuade.
Balance it out, they've gotkidnapping, beheading, but on
(20:11):
balance.
So the English really turn upthe heat on Grace they appoint
her.
arched nemesis, he becomesRichard Bingham.
He was appointed the Englishgovernor of Connaught, which is
a province in western, northwestish kind of island.
And they got on at first, butthen it really came to blows.
(20:34):
His sole purpose of beingappointed was to agro, because
they knew how powerful she was.
Yeah.
So a lot, it's, it goes a bitback and forth, and I'll talk
about that a little bit, butthis Richard guy did not hold
anything back.
He knew that the Irish werefeisty, and he wanted to be
(20:56):
antagonistic, and heparticularly felt in Grace's
case that she had oversteppedwomanhood.
She had gone out of her lane asa woman, so there's like that
misogyny undertone.
So Richard's brother trickedOwen, who is Grace's eldest son.
(21:17):
And the idea is that Richardegged his brother on to take
advantage of him.
And It ended in a duel, and Obinwas killed directly as a result
from Richard egging him on, alittle bit like Hamilton, where
they're like, bad mouthing andthen fights.
So Richard lures Grace into hisheadquarters under the guise of
(21:40):
a truce.
Okay.
They've been at blows, they'vebeen at trade wars, they've been
fighting, like I said,rebellions on the side.
And when he lures her to hisheadquarters, he proclaims her a
traitor and condemns her todeath.
She's then rescued by her ownpeople.
She really should have seen thatcoming.
Yeah, I it did get a bit messyin the research, but it is, the
(22:01):
tension between them is sostrong, I can't underestimate
that.
And she might have been wantingto flip it around on him, you
don't know.
Yeah.
The, I guess the point of thisstory is that she was seen as so
important as a leader and sovalued as a leader that her
people came together andactually gave over hostages that
(22:22):
they'd had to release her.
Yeah, because they really valueGrace's leadership.
Bingham then retaliated again byconfiscating all that cattle
that she's built up and droveher off land and forcing her to
live on the sea in the galleyship.
So he takes over her land, whichis not great.
Grace flees to Ulster to consultwith her allies who are also
(22:46):
plotting against the British byuniting the Irish.
So it's a common enemy here.
I imagine a lot of Irish didn'tlove her for stealing their
cattle and kidnapping theirgrandkids, but it's a bigger
enemy, isn't it?
That's a really good insight,actually.
And you can tell it's thisbigger piece because they need
help from the King of Spain todrive the English out of
(23:08):
Ireland.
So much like Queen Elizabeth wasfearing that happens in 1587.
In 1588, the Spanish Armada isdriven by the bad weather to its
doom.
Bingham is still avenging Grace.
He's still mad at Grace.
He takes terrible revenge on herand her relations, particularly
for helping the Spanish.
It all comes out.
Grace then retaliates and thenthey declare an all out war.
(23:31):
So her and Bingham become aproper war now.
It's about how this hasescalated, isn't it?
It sounds like it startedbecause the English were worried
about A Spanish invasion throughIreland that wasn't happening
and now they've united the Irishagainst them, united the Irish
with the Spanish, created anactual war.
They've just ended up causingway more actual problems than
(23:53):
the hypothetical one that theydidn't have in the first place.
Yeah, it's every man out forhimself, isn't it?
It's very much that.
In 1859, Bingham accused Graceof treason and starting
rebellions against the English.
Shock, horror.
And then Sounds like a fairaccusation.
There was a little a side notethere.
It's the first time he reportsher to Queen Elizabeth.
(24:15):
It's oh, okay.
Miss.
So he's just been trying tohandle this all on his own.
Yeah, because that's his job.
That's the whole reason he'sbeen appointed.
He's gonna be like, don't worry,I've got it.
I'm gonna cause absolute havoc.
The other thing that he does ishe even tries to get Grace's
family to Become allies withhim.
So they try to like double backthis obviously makes Grace
(24:38):
absolutely furious andintensifies her efforts against
Bingham It's ridiculous and he'snot really getting anywhere it's
not until no 91 where he doesthe scorched earth tactic Which
is just taking every little bitof resource possible off them,
isn't it?
It's like cutting off supplies,it's contraband, it's stealing
(25:03):
their ship, it's every you fightthem down where they can't even
put up a fight anymore.
They just nick all thoseresources.
Okay up until now, RichardBingham sounds a bit like Wile
E.
Coyote against the Roadrunner,just always failing in all of
his things, and he's justinstead kicking the whole place.
Absolute analogy, brilliant.
She then strikes back and seizeshis ship.
(25:28):
I love it.
And then by 1952, Grace isgetting a bit desperate because
she's lost all her resourcesnow.
This is the point.
I'm just imagining Richard goingalong with a massive pump.
She's Aha! At last! Oh, forGod's sake, she's got my ship.
She's stolen the ship.
Steve, you were meant to bewatching the ship.
(25:50):
So in desperation in 1592, Gracewrites a letter to Queen
Elizabeth the first, telling herthat this guy's just being a bit
of a prick here I don't thinkhe's treating me very fairly.
And she seeks redress.
Then it intensifies.
Oh, mate, it intensifies again.
(26:10):
1593.
Richard arrests Grace's brother,and also her son, Theobald, for
treason.
And this is a crime that ispunishable by death.
So he actually does thearresting at this point.
And then he imprisons them inAlthrone Castle.
In order to save her son's life,Grace takes voyage and embarks
(26:35):
on this really treacherousjourney to to London, which
involves going round the southcoast of Ireland and up through.
Really dangerous, and shebasically takes it on herself to
be like, sod this, I'm going toGreenwich Palace I'm gonna go
and see the Queen.
Grace at this point is 63.
(26:56):
It's absolutely amazing.
The biographer Ann Chambers saysthat her motivation was just
being a mother.
She's just trying to save thelife of her child.
As you can imagine, trying toget an audience Queen Elizabeth
I is not easy.
That's not a just thing whereyou call up and make an
appointment, right?
So Grace had to, when she gotthere, she had to use all her
(27:17):
political skills and savvinessand navigate the Tudor court.
To allow herself in and there'seven proof of this in English
state papers, which is reallycool.
So what she was trying to do inthose conversations that she
had, she even wrote a petitionto the Queen to answer a series
of questions, so you can't justwalk in.
(27:39):
But it also shows how savvy shewas politically and how she knew
what, she was happy to followprocedure to do that.
And she must have been to havelasted this long.
I don't think you can last thislong in such a, like a role with
such jeopardy associated with itwithout knowing how to play both
(27:59):
enforcer and like politicalmaneuvering, all of that.
You've gotta be the wholepackage, aren't you?
Yeah, and I think she seesherself on the same standing as
Queenland first.
She doesn't see her as anydifferent.
She sees them as peers, which Ireally like.
There is a story that sherefused to bow to the Queen,
which is absolute sacrilege inBritain.
(28:20):
You cannot do that.
And there was also a story thatshe'd brought a dagger to, for,
what would you call it, selfdefense, which to me is not that
far fetched.
If you're a pirate, there'sprobably going to be a dagger on
your person.
But there is some like folklorethat this was made the whole
meeting go awry and that QueenElizabeth was absolutely
(28:41):
outraged that a knife or adagger managed to get into her
court and Actually, in reality,it probably isn't that big a
deal.
It was probably the issue thatthe guards were more upset than
Queen Elizabeth.
That's the vibe I'm getting fromthe biography.
But it does show that therewould have been a clash of
cultures in this meeting.
So you've got, very differentupbringings, you've got very
(29:02):
different, these women boththink they're top of their game
and, it's a huge clash, Irelandand British English culture.
Another example of this is thatGrace, I don't really know, she
was offered a handkerchief by alady and waiting to blow her
nose.
And then in Ireland, it'sbecause to blow your nose and
throw it in the fire.
That was customary at the time.
(29:23):
It was dirty.
You wanted to get rid ofdisease, but in the English
court, apparently that causeduproar.
it's, oh, you can just imaginethe Daily Mail headlines.
Blame head pirate.
Disrespects lady and lady.
Yeah, absolutely.
But that doesn't mean themeeting didn't go well.
(29:45):
It went really well from Grace'spoint of view.
She managed to secure therelease of her family members.
So both her brother and her son.
She even got a promise from theQueen to have a different
person, an English Lord, stepdown from his position.
And, Bingham's out.
Yeah, I think it was Bingham,but it took a long time.
(30:07):
She also managed to get her landreturned to her that Bingham had
stolen in this meeting.
And she got commitment that shewas allowed to continue her
career at sea.
So that's what she negotiated.
She got everything in support ofno longer supporting the Irish
Rebellion.
That's what she gave back.
Oh, okay.
(30:27):
So Queen Elizabeth was happy togive all this in exchange for
that.
That's really the only thing shecould offer, isn't it?
What else do you offer a queen?
For sure, but she got all ofthat.
All of that back, which remindedme so much of Ching Shih and her
negotiations at the end of herlife.
Do you remember?
When they were She even got apension, didn't she?
And the release of all of hermen.
(30:48):
Yeah.
And she got to keep all thetreasure.
Yeah, these women know, theyknow how to negotiate, they know
very much the ins and outs ofit.
It's remarkable.
The reason it took so long forBingham to be recalled was
because he actually disagreedwith Queen Elizabeth I's
decision and therefore didn't doit.
That's classic Bingham,absolutely classic Bingham.
He just didn't want botheredmate, couldn't be bothered with
(31:11):
that.
And I think one of the reasonsthat went so awry was because
obviously Grace went back toIreland.
He's still in Ireland, so shewas relaying the message to him.
So I guess there's maybe a trustissue there.
Yeah, understandably.
Eventually though Bingham isrecalled to English court and
Grace carries on piratingthrough her battles all the way
(31:33):
to the end of her life there area lot more that she gets
involved in and a lot morebattles, but in 1603, Grace
eventually dies of naturalcauses at Rock Street.
73 years old.
It's a lot, isn't it?
That's amazing for, yeah, forthat era.
I love it.
She yeah.
(31:54):
Not advocating for piracy.
But, again, sounds like she didit spectacularly well.
There's a really lovely quotefrom the book that says Grace,
that was, she was quote, anaccomplished marina, fearless
leader, shrewd politicaltactician, independent
businesswoman, ruthlessplunderer, mercenary, rebel, and
(32:15):
a woman who refused to allow anybarrier obstruct her quest.
She commanded loyalty becauseshe was braver than most And I
do that sort of belligerentattitude rather than of looking
at the rules and seeing what youcan do within them saying Those
rules are stupid.
(32:35):
Here's what I'm going to do.
And just she really made thingshappen.
She's very effective by thesounds of it.
Yeah.
And she's absolutely adored inIrish culture, much like she was
in her heyday.
There's a a statue in WestportHouse in County Mayo.
And it's a very cool statue.
I think it's a bronze one.
And she's got a head up, she'sgot her hand on her sword, it's
(33:00):
very cool.
And like I said, she's got sucha legacy in Ireland, and she's
had loads of different impactsin culture.
She's inspired lots ofliterature and, They do
celebrate her a lot in Ireland.
I always think that she shouldbe I really like the idea that
we should have women patronsaints.
You have St.
Patrick's Day.
(33:20):
I'd love the idea of a St.
Grace's Day.
Grace's Day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We should have one for eachcountry.
We just go out and ride a cow.
Yeah, let's just do it.
And then everyone dresses up asa pirate.
So yeah, that's the story ofGrace O'Malley.
Grace's One of those inparticular, I would love to see
how she'd have got on if shewere born in this era.
(33:42):
What that attitude, where thatwould have got her, where piracy
is pretty rare in these partsthese days, but how would that
attitude and that sort ofbelligerence and determination
combined with her politicalmanoeuvring, her skill as a
businesswoman.
Which is very Yellowstone, youhaven't seen Yellowstone.
These are themes that comeacross Yellowstone quite a bit.
(34:03):
So maybe it's not thatdifferent.
I don't know.
thank you, Vicky.
I enjoyed that enormously.
Yay! It was funny.
It was a good one.
It's funny.
She's just straight up badass.
I love it.
Yeah.
And just the idea that you cando it.
Yeah, of course I can do that.
Of course, yeah, of course,yeah.
audio2572508189-1 (34:30):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She changed history@gmail.com.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com