April 22, 2025 • 36 mins
Exploring Artemisia Gentileschi: A Tale of Resilience and Artistic Mastery
In this episode of 'She Changed History,' the hosts discuss the inspiring story of Artemisia Gentileschi, a pioneering Baroque painter from 16th century Italy. Born into a family of artists, Artemisia overcame personal trauma and societal challenges to make a significant impact in the art world. The episode delves into her major works, such as 'Judith Slaying Holofernes' and 'Susanna and the Elders,' highlighting how she redefined the portrayal of women in art. The hosts also draw parallels to contemporary figures like comedian Katherine Ryan, emphasizing the ongoing relevance of challenging societal norms and expectations. Artemisia's legacy is celebrated not just for her technical prowess but also for her defiant spirit and enduring influence on the art world.
Trigger warning: sexual assault and rape
Other episodes mentioned: Grace O'Malley and Judith Leyster
00:00 Introduction to Six: The Musical Experience
00:51 Discovering the Creators: Toby and Lucy
01:56 New Musical Adventures
02:40 Technical Difficulties and Introductions
03:00 Diving into Artemisia Gentileschi's Life
04:42 Early Life and Challenges
08:12 Artistic Journey and Personal Struggles
14:51 Legacy and Iconography
17:46 Analyzing Emotions in Art
21:03 The Practicality of Self-Portraits
22:36 Judith Slaying Holofernes: A Comparative Study
24:42 Susanna and the Elders: A Different Perspective
29:26 Artemisia's Career and Legacy
33:02 The Dinner Party: Celebrating Women in History
35:54 Conclusion and Call to Action
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1591480760 (00:08):
Six was amazing.
Six was super fun.
Yeah.
And um, I.
I thought maybe I'd book ticketsto the wrong thing.
'cause it's one of these, um,live broadcast cinema, theater
to cinema type numbers.
Love that.
And I sat down, I'm ready towatch this musical.
And then they said, and nowwe're gonna show you the
documentary of the making ofsix.
(00:29):
And I was like, oh, I've gonewrong.
But it was, I think because it,when you're in the cinema, they
don't have the interval and soon and so on, right.
In order to kind of make theruntime feel like value for
money, they give you theseextras.
So.
As well as seeing the actual,you know, musical.
Mm-hmm.
I got to see, uh, a thing aboutthe musical and Yay.
(00:51):
The people who did it were likethese two uni students and they
just Yeah.
Toby and Lucy turned it out.
Yeah.
Oh God.
You know them first name.
I know.
Um, I can't remember thefabulous.
I, I bow down to amazing.
So impressive and so full of funand joy.
I, I, yeah.
I really, truly enjoyed it and Ithink I tried to read Wolf Hall
(01:15):
and I realized I was not smartenough for that.
So I tried to watch Wolf Halland I also wasn't smart that,
but then I thought, no, come on,take yourself in hand here.
You can do this.
So I sat down to watch it againwith a bit more focus.
Yeah.
And I did actually enjoy it onceit, once I trusted the process
that I was gonna understand thecharacters.
And having that knowledge ofthat history, albeit only
(01:38):
through the filter of.
A fictionalized television show.
Yeah.
I felt like I could understandand enjoy the musical more.
Like there were some little injokes and I was like, I get the
in jokes.
Oh, it was very good.
Very, very good indeed.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, because, um.
my friends, they have got a newmusical called and it looks
(02:03):
phenomenal.
It looks so good.
I remember you saying that.
You would like to see that.
Yeah, and I had no knowledge ofthem or any of that, of that
musical as their and would I beright in saying this one is not
historical?
No, it is just, um, moderndating.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like God, gen Z dating.
Oh God.
Yeah.
(02:24):
Yeah, yeah.
That sounds rough.
Um, but the.
It's funny from what I've seen,I feel like I've seen it'cause
it's on Instagram so much.
But from what I've yeah, Ibelieve you.
They're funny.
Yeah.
Okay.
Are you ready?
I am ready.
(02:44):
Take it off.
We'll probably get a power cutor something.
'cause this whole enterprise hasbeen a little bit doomed.
She's Trixie isn't.
Let's do it.
She's, yeah.
There's something going on.
Hi Kara.
Hi Vicki.
Hi, how are you?
Yes, I am well, thank you.
I'm ready to discuss our friendArtemisia Genki.
(03:05):
Did you see how I just did thename then?
No hesitation.
You're so slick.
Just then I'm committing.
I'm committing Yes.
Commit So welcome to teachingWe've got lovely Kara And We
are, we are, we're going to roamin the 16th century.
(03:26):
But before we start, a bit of aserious note.
the story today containsreferences to sexual assault and
rape.
And we won't dwell on it, but itis a fact of the life of the
woman we're talking about.
So if you wanna skip this one,look after your own wellbeing,
that is fine.
We're, we'll be here again nextweek with something else.
(03:46):
So.
That being said, let's begin,and I'll start with this.
What does a baroque painter from16th century Italy have in
common with Catherine Ryan?
What similarities are therebetween her and Judith Leiser,
who we learned about in episode24 of she changed history.
(04:08):
What can we understand abouttheir lives and work about how
the arts benefit?
From the determination of thesepioneering women to take their
place at the table.
Let's meet Painter andIconoclast.
Artemisia Gentileschi.
And our sources for today areGoogle Arts and Culture, the
(04:30):
Crimson Blog and the websites ofthe National Gallery in London,
the Liverpool Museum, theVictoria and Albert Museum, and
the Portrait Society of Atlanta.
So our Artesia Gentileschi wasborn in Rome, Italy on the 8th
of July, 1593, which means apartfrom everything else that's
(04:51):
amazing about her, she shares abirthday with my husband.
Um, yes, he's.
He is not a Barack Art masterthough, so we're going to move
on from him and talk about her.
That's really disappointing, Iknow there's still time.
He might turn it around.
That's true.
We'll, we'll see what he doesnext.
We're treating him like enough,Yeah.
Let's, let's give him a, let'sgive him a chance.
(05:13):
Um, although to be fair, shestarted a lot younger than his
current age, so maybe this is,anyway, his retirement thing he
was on about would, would be, itcould be his, his third act.
You just never know.
hundred percent.
She, however, uh, was born intoa family who had an established
artist as a father, and she wasborn in the capital of Italy at
(05:35):
a time when Italian art wasabsolutely thriving.
So lots of parallels with JudithLaer.
yeah.
And I think it makes me wonderif having those connections,
being in the right place at theright time is one of the factors
that lets these breakthroughwomen artists succeed.
(05:55):
yeah, without a doubt.
it sounds like and that was.
Millions the volume if there'sthat Some of that has right?
(06:15):
Or has to be Just Yes.
Statistically speaking.
And she, she definitely bearsthat out, I think where, Judith
Lacer was right in the crest ofthe wave.
I think that, um, artemesia waskind of coming in after the time
when.
A lot of groundbreaking work hadbeen done.
(06:36):
So she's coming in after theRenaissance, the Ninja Turtle
artist period.
If, if you like, they were outthere putting Italy on the map,
and then she comes along at atime when the prevailing art
style is the Barack style.
Okay The VNA has given us ahelpful definition of Barack,
(06:57):
which I have sent to you ifyou'd like to read that.
quote, A defining characteristicof Barack's was the way in
together convey a single Barackdirectly It reflected the
(07:21):
hierarchical and patriarchal ofthe time persuade as well.
both rich and Barack is movementand drama.
Yes.
So, so maybe it's white malehierarchy and patriarchal.
Yes, definitely.
(07:42):
That is the absolutely theprevailing movement of the time.
Really reflecting those values.
But much like the Dutch periodthat you were talking about,
perhaps moving away from, a moreliteral interpretation of
biblical scenes say and startingto add a little bit of narrative
(08:02):
around them.
And that's gonna becomeimportant when we talk about her
work, which we will do in amoment.
she is stepping onto the scene.
With these incredibly successfulpeople all around her, her
father included, but althoughshe did manage to kind of hook
into some opportunities, lifewasn't necessarily all that easy
(08:24):
for her personally.
She's, just 12 years old whenher mother dies and she has
three male siblings, and then itfalls to her, to be looking
after them because she's thewoman in the family now.
Right.
Yeah, of course.
In spite of that, in spite ofthose responsibilities and
expectations, she must have beenquite skillful and quite
(08:46):
persuasive because her fatherallowed her to train in his
studio.
Yeah.
And.
Very young.
there's a letter from her fatherto his pal, the Grand Duchess of
Tuscany.
And that's in 1612 whenArtemesia is 19.
And he says in that letter thatshe had already been painting
for three years at that point.
(09:07):
So, yeah.
do you think let her do itunclear.
Yeah.
I think.
Having the opportunity there,having the materials there, but
even still, you get the sensefrom the source material that
they were a wealthy family andthat he was quite well
established, but the materialsat the time were incredibly
(09:28):
expensive.
The pigments that went intothese paints, so.
I mean, at, at minimum he was anindulgent father, which is not a
bad thing.
And perhaps at best, uh, youknow, we could all use one of
them, but at best, he actuallysaw something in her.
And, we'll talk more, as a sayabout her actual, her technical
ability, her actual work.
(09:50):
Before we get there,unfortunately we do need to
address some of the moredifficult, details from her own
history.
So in 1611, uh, Artemisia wasraped by a visitor staying at
the family home.
He, uh.
According to some of thesources, was hired to be her
(10:11):
teacher.
At any rate, he was a guest andshe was just 18.
So this is a man, an adult man.
Um, I am consciously choosingnot to say his name because why
should we remember his name?
And she, at any rate, had him inher home and had this terrible
thing happen to her.
(10:32):
And.
As maybe a further example ofher father being a decent
person, atypically the family,decided that they were going to
press charges against theattacker.
Yeah.
So they, they pushed on withthis legally and.
Unfortunately, because of theculture in the time, the process
(10:54):
of pursuing it through thecourts was grueling.
Yeah.
The rapist and Artemesia areboth questioned for more than
eight months.
It is a matter of kind of publicspectacle.
Artemesia testimony is evensubject to torture using a
device called the Sibil, whichis a rope that's wound around
(11:15):
the fingers and then tightenedto cause pain, which I guess, I
don't know.
They torture her, her based onher, they tortured her.
And I don't understand.
I think I, I can't understandeither.
I, I think that the hope is thatif someone continues to say the
same thing whilst beingtortured, that it must somehow
(11:36):
be true because they're stickingwith it.
Like an old fashioned Yeah.
I guess.
In any rate, the court recordsare still available and Okay.
we have a quote from her here,saying what she said whilst the
bill was being used on her.
So she says, quote, I have toldthe truth is true Then So he
(12:11):
wanted to Oh, I know.
Marry her as well.
Yeah.
So that's gonna make it right.
I say in his mind it disgusting.
Absolutely, absolutelyunacceptable.
And she's having none of it.
She's, yeah.
She's not to be silenced.
She's not to be tricked.
She is going to go about thisher own way and put him where he
(12:33):
belongs.
And at the time of her trial,just to kind of.
Show you the, the mindset of thewoman we're dealing with.
She's, again, she's only 19years old.
She wrote to a patron of hers inSicily, and this is a quote from
that letter I will show find theOof.
(13:00):
That's exciting.
Yeah, she's, she's absolutely.
A force and defiant in the faceof what's going on with her.
Yeah.
And what a woman can do is quitea that's a strong sentence
today, isn't it?
If you had that on your be like,yes, And that just a bit about,
(13:22):
this is probably.
I shouldn't say this but the bitabout I, you'll find the spirit
of Caesar in the soul of a womanreminds me of black Atter with a
little bit Queenie saying, I mayhave, what is it?
I may have the body of a woman,but I have the stomach and the
spirit of an iron elephant orsomething like that.
Anyway, Eventually this horribleman is found guilty.
(13:44):
He is then.
Sentenced to banishment fromRome.
Unfortunately, though thatsentence is never enforced.
We'll say banishment isn't.
Yeah, we talked about thisbefore and you were like, big,
big work.
You've told him he can't live intown anymore and then they don't
even follow through with it.
(14:05):
It's like, come on.
Weak sauce.
After a year or so of grueling,and her putting her.
You know, putting herself outthere.
So, because she had more to losethan him, didn't she?
Absolutely, absolutely.
And in the end, he basicallylost nothing, but she did not
let that stop her the day afterthe trial, literally the day
(14:27):
after she married hersweetheart, who is a fellow
painter and maybe.
They knew that something wasgonna go down because they then
moved to Florence immediatelyand right.
So she left.
She left.
She was like, okay.
She was like, I don't believe inyour banishment.
Off she goes, goes to Florencewith her new husband to start
(14:50):
her own career.
And yes, her work is technicallyspeaking.
Excellent.
There are, several paintingsthat I've included in this
document for us to talk about.
Which, maybe is a little bit ofa weird thing to do in a podcast
where it's an audio medium, butwe're in it, We, we always put
(15:11):
them on Instagram anyway, so ifyou Yes.
Look at that's fabulous.
percent.
Wonderful.
Um, that's.
Brilliant because they are worthseeing.
The first one that is includedhere is her self portrait as the
allegory of painting, which wewere lucky enough, Vicki and I
to see in the Tates now UCSexhibition in the flesh.
(15:35):
That exhibition was fabulous.
It was all about overlooked orrevolutionary women artists.
And there was just rooms androoms and rooms and rooms.
Oh, we nearly didn't make a tripour bus home.
We were so surprised by how muchmaterial was there.
But, This specific painting hasa brunette white woman leaning
(15:57):
towards the viewer, and she'slooking at something distant.
Her hair is tumbling down.
She's holding a paintbrush,she's holding a palette.
She's wearing these beautifulsilk gowns and on her neck, a
chain with a little maskpendant.
And I'm picking these detailsout because.
They aren't random.
(16:18):
In the Barack periodiconography.
So the representation of theseimages that were imbued with
more meaning was seriousbusiness.
They had a book called TheIconia of Caesar Repa.
Oh my gosh.
And that was there to tell them,this is what this saint looks
like.
This is what this allegoricalfigure looks like.
And in this painting wassupposed to be a woman.
(16:42):
With dark, wild hair.
Yeah.
And a gold chain with a mask onit.
And it was supposed to have agag covering her mouth, and I
think it's super interestingthat Artemesia has left the
mouth covering off.
Maybe I'm just reading too muchinto it because No, I agree.
I with what we've learn abouther so far, that's not a step
(17:04):
too far.
We will talk about another selfportrait..
The allegory of painting thewoman in the image.
If I wasn't clear, very muchArtemesia painting herself in
that role.
That's the self portrait.
Yeah.
The second portrait that we'regonna talk about is, um, it is
actually called self portrait asSt.
Catherine of Alexandria, andthis is one that's held in the
(17:27):
National Gallery in London.
Mm-hmm.
It's, a Caucasian brunette.
Oh yeah.
She is.
She's holding a spiked.
Broken wheel, which looks kindof like an a wagon wheel, but it
was an instrument of torture.
Um, right.
They were all about the torture,weren't they in this time?
Mm-hmm.
She just has this look ofsteady, calm, I'm gonna say
(17:53):
disappointment, like she's abit.
Yeah, unimpressed.
Like, um, you know, That is whatshe just said is, you know,
you've done wrong.
Yes.
When somebody's looking at youlike this, and I think those
things we know about her.
Her past really help usunderstand perhaps what emotions
(18:16):
are being conveyed through theseimages.
This is what I struggle with ingalleries her background plaque
know what I mean?
And I know galleries do theirbest knowing now about that I
(18:42):
feel completely differently Andit's, well, I've learned It is
difficult, isn't it?
And I think sometimes you'rewalking around the gallery and
you're taking stuff in visuallyand maybe just sort of like
piling it away, banking it inyour mind.
Yes.
Because there's so much, becausethere is so much.
And then later on you might getsome little detail or some
(19:04):
little nugget or historical factand you'll go, oh.
That's why all those paintingshad lemons in them or whatever,
whatever it may be.
You're just, suddenly a littlething is unlocked and your brain
goes, oh, yum, yum, yum.
Thank you very much.
And I think these historicalfacts about her.
Do give you a context that,yeah, looking at the painting in
(19:26):
the flesh, I'm like, I didn'tknow, I didn't read the Icono
Logia of Cesar Rippa.
I don't know.
She's meant to have a gag overher mouth, yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's really cool to comeback and reflect on things like
that.
It is, and I really like thishow How, I'm choosing to say it
probably incorrectly is theIcono Logia.
(19:50):
I think that's harsh.
Yeah.
Is that It feels quite universallike it A Dutch painter, but it
a, that because you didn't thatthat was Right.
(20:15):
And I think I think it alsospeaks to something that you
guys talked about when you spokeabout Grace O'Malley, which is
that there is a set of rules andthe decision to go against them.
Is a conscious choice.
I think, you know, the thing youwere talking about is to look at
the rules and say, nah, thoserules are stupid.
(20:37):
I'm not doing that.
Is is a bold choice.
And She was obviously capable.
Oh, I wish I had more Rules.
Rules have been for a reason.
I'm a bit of a, of a control andrules enthusiast myself, so yes,
I could use a little bit moredefiance in my life.
Maybe that's why these womenspeak to us so much.
(20:59):
So as well as all that stuffthat we're talking about there.
There's also some reallypractical reasons why she's
turning up as her own model.
And, um, there's no photographyobviously available to artists
of the day.
They can't photograph a subject.
Artists models are expecting tobe paid, and even If you're
(21:22):
working with somebody whose payexpectations are super, super
low, it's still expensive to paythem.
There's a practical reason.
It's a business.
It's also, it's a businessdecision.
And of course you're alwaysthere.
You always have your own image,you know it best, and it's
always free.
There's another reason that theNational Gallery puts across,
which, if you could read thisquote here.
(21:44):
imagine that would be very blackmirror that you'd have to say
for your own reflection and sayGod.
Um, so the National Gallery sequote, used her own in Florence,
new to the city, I think thatmakes perfect sense.
(22:06):
I think all these decisions justtell me a, this is it, she's.
Actually thinking about how am Igoing to make this a profitable,
successful industry?
Because she's on her own now.
she's yeah, yeah.
She's savvy and I think that'sincredible.
she used her own image plenty.
(22:27):
She was, she was a prophetess,she was a loop player.
She was in the images above.
We can see a lot of her personalstory reflected in those images.
Another example of that isprobably her most famous work,
which is a painting calledJudith Slaying, Hal talk.
And that's right.
(22:48):
It's, it's, it's a big hitter.
It's from the Bible, you know,the old Bible say.
Yeah.
and it is a gruesome one.
It's, a woman.
Beheading a man, a general whowas staying, I believe in her
guest house, and he hadthreatened to sack the city that
she lives in.
She's a widow.
She is, she has resolved tomurder him, and this painting
(23:14):
depicts the murder happeningright in front of our eyes.
So I believe is gory, isn't it?
It's super gory.
There's two versions of it inthe mix here, and I've got one
is by the artist Caravaggio, whowas a friend and mentor of
Gentileschi, and then.
Second, I have her version.
(23:35):
So for comparison purposes, Imean it's not unusual for all
the reasons we've talked aboutfor multiple artists to cover
the same scene of course.
And it gives us such a cool wayto compare how these different
artists think and how they seethe world.
You look at Caravaggio's,Judith, and she's sort of
(23:56):
disgusted and.
She's pulling back.
She's recoiling, she'shorrified.
Gentiles, Judith, she lookspissed off.
She's he's fighting back in, ingentiles.
she's not flinching from thetask.
She's covered in blood, but theyare getting the job done and.
(24:18):
This is an example of that dramathat the quote from, the
beginning talked about the dramaof the scene.
The drama of the lightingtechnique that they use.
Mm-hmm.
The chiro with the strong light,deep shade, all these emotional
elements, the movement of thepeace, the biblical subjects.
It gives her an opportunity toshowcase her worldview.
(24:41):
Yeah.
So.
All of that being said, we'lltalk about one more painting in
a moment, and that is Susannaand the elders.
And this is where Catherine Ryancomes to mind because Yes, I
forgot about Yeah, CatherineRyan.
In her show Glitter Room, whichI think was from about 2019, she
(25:02):
talked about going to seeHamilton.
Mm-hmm.
as what we've all done, as we'veall done, we talk about it.
Probably too much, but obviouslywith great affection.
I don't wanna spoil the bit.
So if you haven't heard it, goahead and Google.
Catherine.
Ryan Hamilton.
I think you've heard it before.
but in short, what she talksabout in the bid, what she sort
(25:28):
of highlights is that the plot.
Of Hamilton at this particularmoment, and the lyrics of the
song that that show up in thisbit of the plot are just so
pervasive.
It's just the water we swim in.
And Catherine Ryan, despite thefact that she's enjoying the
(25:48):
play, she's, fully respecting ofthe work, the writing, she's
able to sort of step outside ofit and go.
Wait a minute.
That sucks.
Like that.
That way of looking at things isnot okay.
And she does it in a way, unlikewhat I'm doing here.
That is so goddamn funny.
She's amazing.
So do go, do, go look it up.
(26:09):
It's, it's fabulous.
But anyway, the reason I'mbringing it up at all is that
Artemisia to kind of verb anoun, Catherine Ryan's the
painting of Susanna and theelders.
So.
The Liverpool Museum talks aboutthe scene we are about to, to
look at.
(26:29):
Okay.
And, um, if you could read thatdescription.
Yep.
So quote, the story of Susannaand lust and the corruption of
Susanna tribe.
When she confronted them, theythreatened to blackmail if she
(26:50):
refused to sleep with them.
Mm.
Um, is this biblical?
Yeah.
Oh, uh, she refused and theyaccused her publicly of having
committed adultery for this.
She was condemned to death.
Oh my God.
That spiral, didn't it?
Oh, so grim.
It's grim.
(27:12):
Like, yeah.
See, let a woman have a bath.
Just sad.
That's got nothing to do.
Nothing to do with you.
That really escalated.
That's kind of the point, right?
Because yeah.
That that scene is painted againand again and again in classical
painting.
Probably because it gave theseartists, these men, a chance to
depict female nudity and stillmaintain the moral high ground.
(27:36):
Look, I'm, it's in the Bible.
I'm just saying what's in theBible.
it gets, oh It gets, it gets theblood boiling.
Especially because usually inthese depictions you've got
Susanna kind of like.
Oh, like flirty.
It's peripheral.
It's horrific.
And it's so not what that storyis about, but it, yeah, it's
(27:59):
kind of, yeah, it's just wild.
So Artemisia, technically it's awonderful painting, but what
really catches your interest isthat Catherine Ryan thing that.
She's taking a differentperspective.
So there's a quote here.
She challeng it, she challengesit.
Yeah.
Could you give us this quotefrom the Crimson talking about
her depiction of that scene?
(28:19):
Yes.
A frightened The work istriumphant of Barack to the
clearly and powerfully that'sgood.
(28:41):
So she's given valid yes.
And a realistic response.
I think it's not just, oh, hereI can make some boobies.
She's showing how a person wouldfeel to be, to be put in that
position, which would finger it?
(29:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Disgust and outrage and fear.
And then the shamefulness of itor the person who's stepping
outta the bounds.
It's the elders.
It's where it belongs.
And it was the point of the Riggstory in the first place.
Yeah.
Actually, not that I'm abiblical scholar, but Jesus, you
don't need to be that astute topick up on that.
(29:26):
So despite of this.
Defiant outlook and thesequietly radical themes in her
painting.
Somehow we, see incrediblecareer progression from her.
Okay.
So yeah.
there's a quote here if you careto give it that talks a little
bit about her career.
(29:46):
Yeah.
Quote In 1615 to 1616.
At age 23, Artesia becomes thefirst female member of the De is
Ana in Florence betweeninteresting children.
(30:13):
So we're climbing, we'rebirthing.
Doing it all and that, yeah,that is, I cannot help but
wonder.
if that, how, yeah, like whathas she managed to put into
place that allowed her to keepworking?
(30:34):
What sacrifices is she makingthat allow her to keep working
when many other artists likeJudith Leiser had to take a step
back simply for the fact thatthere was no.
Other way for them at that time,once they had children.
Mm-hmm.
But whatever it was, however shepulled it off, whatever she gave
up in order to do it.
(30:54):
She made a commercial success ofher work.
Yeah.
she even got to a level whereshe was kind of celebrity.
She was invited to London in1638, by Charles the first to
work on portraits andcommissions.
Like you do.
And once that happened, she wasinvited to the Royal Courts in
Madrid and Vienna.
(31:16):
She continued to haveprofessional success in her
lifetime until her death inNaples isn't it know her name?
Yeah.
She was the.
The King of England commissionedher directly.
know her I think high The factthat these things.
(31:38):
Get lost?
Her work, like a lot of other,women artists was sort of
lazily, misattributed toprolific males who worked in a
similar style at a similar time.
So in her case, a lot of herwork was attributed to
Caravaggio.
But in the long run and with alot of effort on the part.
(32:00):
Of catalogers and academics andhistorians.
Her career was unearthed and nowher work is correctly attributed
and hanging in major galleriesall around the world, as it was
all along, just under, just withher name, and right now
supposed, yeah, now we actuallysee it.
Yeah.
With the correct nameattributed.
So, I have a final quote here.
(32:23):
Mm-hmm.
If you would give it, and ittalks about the lasting impact
of her work, per the PortraitSociety of Atlanta of
approximately 60 40 dominatedfrom the viewpoint Artesia.
the lowly often and turned theminto brilliant strong subjects
(32:53):
Oh, well good.
I know.
I know.
It's fabulous and so lasting andsort of.
Respected is that impact thatthere is an artwork called The
Dinner Party by Judy Chicago.
Um, I think you've seen apicture of it, haven't you?
I've seen it, um, but but I tellyou what, I keep thinking Like I
(33:22):
think that it would be worthseeing for sure.
Yes.
Where did we discover it?
It's like in the Bronx orsomething?
In the Bronx Museum.
I mean, which is a bit scary,but you know that in 2020, maybe
in three it four years time.
Yeah.
When indeed, when indeed, atsome point it would be lovely to
go and see it.
(33:42):
We can.
So for people who haven't seenit before, what we're talking
about is this massiveinstallation artwork.
It's a huge triangular dinnertable and there are 39 dinner
place settings around this tablethat celebrate women from all
different.
Spheres, fictional and real.
(34:03):
Mm-hmm.
Of historical significance.
So I like to think of it as thedinner party version of our
podcast.
Yes.
And Vicki, you pointed out to mesomething I didn't know, which
is that on the floor tilesunderneath the piece, there are
like, what, 111 or somethingfurther?
Yeah, further names.
The names, Oh, incredible.
(34:27):
I feel like that's episodesdone, basically.
Right.
It's just gonna be like anindex.
We're just gonna hit it.
Um, so yeah, I mean, Gentiles,she's in there alongside boa, a
name I cannot pronounce, boa.
Bo.
Baria I it the first time.
Oh, I dunno.
I know what you mean.
(34:48):
One of them who?
They're one of, one of them.
Here's one I'm sacred with.
Emily Dickinson.
Eleanor of Acutane Sojo hertruth.
Yes.
And here's Artemesia.
And it just shows howrevolutionary the simple act of
painting from a woman'sperspective was, so simple, but
so powerful.
A lasting value.
And.
whether it's the comedy ofKatherine Ryan, the Art of
(35:11):
Artemisia Gentle, what is beingdone here is that we are being
shown that we can keep an eyeopen to the ways that we are
just sort of accepting ah,that's just how things are.
Yeah.
And they're inviting us to, toattack that, to, to paint
(35:32):
things, to make jokes to.
I'm gonna use her quote to showthe whole illustrious world what
a woman can do.
Oh, beautiful.
I love it.
It makes me wanna to kick downan iron door.
I love it.
Beautiful ending.
I love it.
Yeah,
audio2663295054 (35:54):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
Six was amazing.
Six was super fun.
Yeah.
And um, I.
I thought maybe I'd book ticketsto the wrong thing.
'cause it's one of these, um,live broadcast cinema, theater
to cinema type numbers.
Love that.
And I sat down, I'm ready towatch this musical.
And then they said, and nowwe're gonna show you the
documentary of the making ofsix.
(00:29):
And I was like, oh, I've gonewrong.
But it was, I think because it,when you're in the cinema, they
don't have the interval and soon and so on, right.
In order to kind of make theruntime feel like value for
money, they give you theseextras.
So.
As well as seeing the actual,you know, musical.
Mm-hmm.
I got to see, uh, a thing aboutthe musical and Yay.
(00:51):
The people who did it were likethese two uni students and they
just Yeah.
Toby and Lucy turned it out.
Yeah.
Oh God.
You know them first name.
I know.
Um, I can't remember thefabulous.
I, I bow down to amazing.
So impressive and so full of funand joy.
I, I, yeah.
I really, truly enjoyed it and Ithink I tried to read Wolf Hall
(01:15):
and I realized I was not smartenough for that.
So I tried to watch Wolf Halland I also wasn't smart that,
but then I thought, no, come on,take yourself in hand here.
You can do this.
So I sat down to watch it againwith a bit more focus.
Yeah.
And I did actually enjoy it onceit, once I trusted the process
that I was gonna understand thecharacters.
And having that knowledge ofthat history, albeit only
(01:38):
through the filter of.
A fictionalized television show.
Yeah.
I felt like I could understandand enjoy the musical more.
Like there were some little injokes and I was like, I get the
in jokes.
Oh, it was very good.
Very, very good indeed.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, because, um.
my friends, they have got a newmusical called and it looks
(02:03):
phenomenal.
It looks so good.
I remember you saying that.
You would like to see that.
Yeah, and I had no knowledge ofthem or any of that, of that
musical as their and would I beright in saying this one is not
historical?
No, it is just, um, moderndating.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like God, gen Z dating.
Oh God.
Yeah.
(02:24):
Yeah, yeah.
That sounds rough.
Um, but the.
It's funny from what I've seen,I feel like I've seen it'cause
it's on Instagram so much.
But from what I've yeah, Ibelieve you.
They're funny.
Yeah.
Okay.
Are you ready?
I am ready.
(02:44):
Take it off.
We'll probably get a power cutor something.
'cause this whole enterprise hasbeen a little bit doomed.
She's Trixie isn't.
Let's do it.
She's, yeah.
There's something going on.
Hi Kara.
Hi Vicki.
Hi, how are you?
Yes, I am well, thank you.
I'm ready to discuss our friendArtemisia Genki.
(03:05):
Did you see how I just did thename then?
No hesitation.
You're so slick.
Just then I'm committing.
I'm committing Yes.
Commit So welcome to teachingWe've got lovely Kara And We
are, we are, we're going to roamin the 16th century.
(03:26):
But before we start, a bit of aserious note.
the story today containsreferences to sexual assault and
rape.
And we won't dwell on it, but itis a fact of the life of the
woman we're talking about.
So if you wanna skip this one,look after your own wellbeing,
that is fine.
We're, we'll be here again nextweek with something else.
(03:46):
So.
That being said, let's begin,and I'll start with this.
What does a baroque painter from16th century Italy have in
common with Catherine Ryan?
What similarities are therebetween her and Judith Leiser,
who we learned about in episode24 of she changed history.
(04:08):
What can we understand abouttheir lives and work about how
the arts benefit?
From the determination of thesepioneering women to take their
place at the table.
Let's meet Painter andIconoclast.
Artemisia Gentileschi.
And our sources for today areGoogle Arts and Culture, the
(04:30):
Crimson Blog and the websites ofthe National Gallery in London,
the Liverpool Museum, theVictoria and Albert Museum, and
the Portrait Society of Atlanta.
So our Artesia Gentileschi wasborn in Rome, Italy on the 8th
of July, 1593, which means apartfrom everything else that's
(04:51):
amazing about her, she shares abirthday with my husband.
Um, yes, he's.
He is not a Barack Art masterthough, so we're going to move
on from him and talk about her.
That's really disappointing, Iknow there's still time.
He might turn it around.
That's true.
We'll, we'll see what he doesnext.
We're treating him like enough,Yeah.
Let's, let's give him a, let'sgive him a chance.
(05:13):
Um, although to be fair, shestarted a lot younger than his
current age, so maybe this is,anyway, his retirement thing he
was on about would, would be, itcould be his, his third act.
You just never know.
hundred percent.
She, however, uh, was born intoa family who had an established
artist as a father, and she wasborn in the capital of Italy at
(05:35):
a time when Italian art wasabsolutely thriving.
So lots of parallels with JudithLaer.
yeah.
And I think it makes me wonderif having those connections,
being in the right place at theright time is one of the factors
that lets these breakthroughwomen artists succeed.
(05:55):
yeah, without a doubt.
it sounds like and that was.
Millions the volume if there'sthat Some of that has right?
(06:15):
Or has to be Just Yes.
Statistically speaking.
And she, she definitely bearsthat out, I think where, Judith
Lacer was right in the crest ofthe wave.
I think that, um, artemesia waskind of coming in after the time
when.
A lot of groundbreaking work hadbeen done.
(06:36):
So she's coming in after theRenaissance, the Ninja Turtle
artist period.
If, if you like, they were outthere putting Italy on the map,
and then she comes along at atime when the prevailing art
style is the Barack style.
Okay The VNA has given us ahelpful definition of Barack,
(06:57):
which I have sent to you ifyou'd like to read that.
quote, A defining characteristicof Barack's was the way in
together convey a single Barackdirectly It reflected the
(07:21):
hierarchical and patriarchal ofthe time persuade as well.
both rich and Barack is movementand drama.
Yes.
So, so maybe it's white malehierarchy and patriarchal.
Yes, definitely.
(07:42):
That is the absolutely theprevailing movement of the time.
Really reflecting those values.
But much like the Dutch periodthat you were talking about,
perhaps moving away from, a moreliteral interpretation of
biblical scenes say and startingto add a little bit of narrative
(08:02):
around them.
And that's gonna becomeimportant when we talk about her
work, which we will do in amoment.
she is stepping onto the scene.
With these incredibly successfulpeople all around her, her
father included, but althoughshe did manage to kind of hook
into some opportunities, lifewasn't necessarily all that easy
(08:24):
for her personally.
She's, just 12 years old whenher mother dies and she has
three male siblings, and then itfalls to her, to be looking
after them because she's thewoman in the family now.
Right.
Yeah, of course.
In spite of that, in spite ofthose responsibilities and
expectations, she must have beenquite skillful and quite
(08:46):
persuasive because her fatherallowed her to train in his
studio.
Yeah.
And.
Very young.
there's a letter from her fatherto his pal, the Grand Duchess of
Tuscany.
And that's in 1612 whenArtemesia is 19.
And he says in that letter thatshe had already been painting
for three years at that point.
(09:07):
So, yeah.
do you think let her do itunclear.
Yeah.
I think.
Having the opportunity there,having the materials there, but
even still, you get the sensefrom the source material that
they were a wealthy family andthat he was quite well
established, but the materialsat the time were incredibly
(09:28):
expensive.
The pigments that went intothese paints, so.
I mean, at, at minimum he was anindulgent father, which is not a
bad thing.
And perhaps at best, uh, youknow, we could all use one of
them, but at best, he actuallysaw something in her.
And, we'll talk more, as a sayabout her actual, her technical
ability, her actual work.
(09:50):
Before we get there,unfortunately we do need to
address some of the moredifficult, details from her own
history.
So in 1611, uh, Artemisia wasraped by a visitor staying at
the family home.
He, uh.
According to some of thesources, was hired to be her
(10:11):
teacher.
At any rate, he was a guest andshe was just 18.
So this is a man, an adult man.
Um, I am consciously choosingnot to say his name because why
should we remember his name?
And she, at any rate, had him inher home and had this terrible
thing happen to her.
(10:32):
And.
As maybe a further example ofher father being a decent
person, atypically the family,decided that they were going to
press charges against theattacker.
Yeah.
So they, they pushed on withthis legally and.
Unfortunately, because of theculture in the time, the process
(10:54):
of pursuing it through thecourts was grueling.
Yeah.
The rapist and Artemesia areboth questioned for more than
eight months.
It is a matter of kind of publicspectacle.
Artemesia testimony is evensubject to torture using a
device called the Sibil, whichis a rope that's wound around
(11:15):
the fingers and then tightenedto cause pain, which I guess, I
don't know.
They torture her, her based onher, they tortured her.
And I don't understand.
I think I, I can't understandeither.
I, I think that the hope is thatif someone continues to say the
same thing whilst beingtortured, that it must somehow
(11:36):
be true because they're stickingwith it.
Like an old fashioned Yeah.
I guess.
In any rate, the court recordsare still available and Okay.
we have a quote from her here,saying what she said whilst the
bill was being used on her.
So she says, quote, I have toldthe truth is true Then So he
(12:11):
wanted to Oh, I know.
Marry her as well.
Yeah.
So that's gonna make it right.
I say in his mind it disgusting.
Absolutely, absolutelyunacceptable.
And she's having none of it.
She's, yeah.
She's not to be silenced.
She's not to be tricked.
She is going to go about thisher own way and put him where he
(12:33):
belongs.
And at the time of her trial,just to kind of.
Show you the, the mindset of thewoman we're dealing with.
She's, again, she's only 19years old.
She wrote to a patron of hers inSicily, and this is a quote from
that letter I will show find theOof.
(13:00):
That's exciting.
Yeah, she's, she's absolutely.
A force and defiant in the faceof what's going on with her.
Yeah.
And what a woman can do is quitea that's a strong sentence
today, isn't it?
If you had that on your be like,yes, And that just a bit about,
(13:22):
this is probably.
I shouldn't say this but the bitabout I, you'll find the spirit
of Caesar in the soul of a womanreminds me of black Atter with a
little bit Queenie saying, I mayhave, what is it?
I may have the body of a woman,but I have the stomach and the
spirit of an iron elephant orsomething like that.
Anyway, Eventually this horribleman is found guilty.
(13:44):
He is then.
Sentenced to banishment fromRome.
Unfortunately, though thatsentence is never enforced.
We'll say banishment isn't.
Yeah, we talked about thisbefore and you were like, big,
big work.
You've told him he can't live intown anymore and then they don't
even follow through with it.
(14:05):
It's like, come on.
Weak sauce.
After a year or so of grueling,and her putting her.
You know, putting herself outthere.
So, because she had more to losethan him, didn't she?
Absolutely, absolutely.
And in the end, he basicallylost nothing, but she did not
let that stop her the day afterthe trial, literally the day
(14:27):
after she married hersweetheart, who is a fellow
painter and maybe.
They knew that something wasgonna go down because they then
moved to Florence immediatelyand right.
So she left.
She left.
She was like, okay.
She was like, I don't believe inyour banishment.
Off she goes, goes to Florencewith her new husband to start
(14:50):
her own career.
And yes, her work is technicallyspeaking.
Excellent.
There are, several paintingsthat I've included in this
document for us to talk about.
Which, maybe is a little bit ofa weird thing to do in a podcast
where it's an audio medium, butwe're in it, We, we always put
(15:11):
them on Instagram anyway, so ifyou Yes.
Look at that's fabulous.
percent.
Wonderful.
Um, that's.
Brilliant because they are worthseeing.
The first one that is includedhere is her self portrait as the
allegory of painting, which wewere lucky enough, Vicki and I
to see in the Tates now UCSexhibition in the flesh.
(15:35):
That exhibition was fabulous.
It was all about overlooked orrevolutionary women artists.
And there was just rooms androoms and rooms and rooms.
Oh, we nearly didn't make a tripour bus home.
We were so surprised by how muchmaterial was there.
But, This specific painting hasa brunette white woman leaning
(15:57):
towards the viewer, and she'slooking at something distant.
Her hair is tumbling down.
She's holding a paintbrush,she's holding a palette.
She's wearing these beautifulsilk gowns and on her neck, a
chain with a little maskpendant.
And I'm picking these detailsout because.
They aren't random.
(16:18):
In the Barack periodiconography.
So the representation of theseimages that were imbued with
more meaning was seriousbusiness.
They had a book called TheIconia of Caesar Repa.
Oh my gosh.
And that was there to tell them,this is what this saint looks
like.
This is what this allegoricalfigure looks like.
And in this painting wassupposed to be a woman.
(16:42):
With dark, wild hair.
Yeah.
And a gold chain with a mask onit.
And it was supposed to have agag covering her mouth, and I
think it's super interestingthat Artemesia has left the
mouth covering off.
Maybe I'm just reading too muchinto it because No, I agree.
I with what we've learn abouther so far, that's not a step
(17:04):
too far.
We will talk about another selfportrait..
The allegory of painting thewoman in the image.
If I wasn't clear, very muchArtemesia painting herself in
that role.
That's the self portrait.
Yeah.
The second portrait that we'regonna talk about is, um, it is
actually called self portrait asSt.
Catherine of Alexandria, andthis is one that's held in the
(17:27):
National Gallery in London.
Mm-hmm.
It's, a Caucasian brunette.
Oh yeah.
She is.
She's holding a spiked.
Broken wheel, which looks kindof like an a wagon wheel, but it
was an instrument of torture.
Um, right.
They were all about the torture,weren't they in this time?
Mm-hmm.
She just has this look ofsteady, calm, I'm gonna say
(17:53):
disappointment, like she's abit.
Yeah, unimpressed.
Like, um, you know, That is whatshe just said is, you know,
you've done wrong.
Yes.
When somebody's looking at youlike this, and I think those
things we know about her.
Her past really help usunderstand perhaps what emotions
(18:16):
are being conveyed through theseimages.
This is what I struggle with ingalleries her background plaque
know what I mean?
And I know galleries do theirbest knowing now about that I
(18:42):
feel completely differently Andit's, well, I've learned It is
difficult, isn't it?
And I think sometimes you'rewalking around the gallery and
you're taking stuff in visuallyand maybe just sort of like
piling it away, banking it inyour mind.
Yes.
Because there's so much, becausethere is so much.
And then later on you might getsome little detail or some
(19:04):
little nugget or historical factand you'll go, oh.
That's why all those paintingshad lemons in them or whatever,
whatever it may be.
You're just, suddenly a littlething is unlocked and your brain
goes, oh, yum, yum, yum.
Thank you very much.
And I think these historicalfacts about her.
Do give you a context that,yeah, looking at the painting in
(19:26):
the flesh, I'm like, I didn'tknow, I didn't read the Icono
Logia of Cesar Rippa.
I don't know.
She's meant to have a gag overher mouth, yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's really cool to comeback and reflect on things like
that.
It is, and I really like thishow How, I'm choosing to say it
probably incorrectly is theIcono Logia.
(19:50):
I think that's harsh.
Yeah.
Is that It feels quite universallike it A Dutch painter, but it
a, that because you didn't thatthat was Right.
(20:15):
And I think I think it alsospeaks to something that you
guys talked about when you spokeabout Grace O'Malley, which is
that there is a set of rules andthe decision to go against them.
Is a conscious choice.
I think, you know, the thing youwere talking about is to look at
the rules and say, nah, thoserules are stupid.
(20:37):
I'm not doing that.
Is is a bold choice.
And She was obviously capable.
Oh, I wish I had more Rules.
Rules have been for a reason.
I'm a bit of a, of a control andrules enthusiast myself, so yes,
I could use a little bit moredefiance in my life.
Maybe that's why these womenspeak to us so much.
(20:59):
So as well as all that stuffthat we're talking about there.
There's also some reallypractical reasons why she's
turning up as her own model.
And, um, there's no photographyobviously available to artists
of the day.
They can't photograph a subject.
Artists models are expecting tobe paid, and even If you're
(21:22):
working with somebody whose payexpectations are super, super
low, it's still expensive to paythem.
There's a practical reason.
It's a business.
It's also, it's a businessdecision.
And of course you're alwaysthere.
You always have your own image,you know it best, and it's
always free.
There's another reason that theNational Gallery puts across,
which, if you could read thisquote here.
(21:44):
imagine that would be very blackmirror that you'd have to say
for your own reflection and sayGod.
Um, so the National Gallery sequote, used her own in Florence,
new to the city, I think thatmakes perfect sense.
(22:06):
I think all these decisions justtell me a, this is it, she's.
Actually thinking about how am Igoing to make this a profitable,
successful industry?
Because she's on her own now.
she's yeah, yeah.
She's savvy and I think that'sincredible.
she used her own image plenty.
(22:27):
She was, she was a prophetess,she was a loop player.
She was in the images above.
We can see a lot of her personalstory reflected in those images.
Another example of that isprobably her most famous work,
which is a painting calledJudith Slaying, Hal talk.
And that's right.
(22:48):
It's, it's, it's a big hitter.
It's from the Bible, you know,the old Bible say.
Yeah.
and it is a gruesome one.
It's, a woman.
Beheading a man, a general whowas staying, I believe in her
guest house, and he hadthreatened to sack the city that
she lives in.
She's a widow.
She is, she has resolved tomurder him, and this painting
(23:14):
depicts the murder happeningright in front of our eyes.
So I believe is gory, isn't it?
It's super gory.
There's two versions of it inthe mix here, and I've got one
is by the artist Caravaggio, whowas a friend and mentor of
Gentileschi, and then.
Second, I have her version.
(23:35):
So for comparison purposes, Imean it's not unusual for all
the reasons we've talked aboutfor multiple artists to cover
the same scene of course.
And it gives us such a cool wayto compare how these different
artists think and how they seethe world.
You look at Caravaggio's,Judith, and she's sort of
(23:56):
disgusted and.
She's pulling back.
She's recoiling, she'shorrified.
Gentiles, Judith, she lookspissed off.
She's he's fighting back in, ingentiles.
she's not flinching from thetask.
She's covered in blood, but theyare getting the job done and.
(24:18):
This is an example of that dramathat the quote from, the
beginning talked about the dramaof the scene.
The drama of the lightingtechnique that they use.
Mm-hmm.
The chiro with the strong light,deep shade, all these emotional
elements, the movement of thepeace, the biblical subjects.
It gives her an opportunity toshowcase her worldview.
(24:41):
Yeah.
So.
All of that being said, we'lltalk about one more painting in
a moment, and that is Susannaand the elders.
And this is where Catherine Ryancomes to mind because Yes, I
forgot about Yeah, CatherineRyan.
In her show Glitter Room, whichI think was from about 2019, she
(25:02):
talked about going to seeHamilton.
Mm-hmm.
as what we've all done, as we'veall done, we talk about it.
Probably too much, but obviouslywith great affection.
I don't wanna spoil the bit.
So if you haven't heard it, goahead and Google.
Catherine.
Ryan Hamilton.
I think you've heard it before.
but in short, what she talksabout in the bid, what she sort
(25:28):
of highlights is that the plot.
Of Hamilton at this particularmoment, and the lyrics of the
song that that show up in thisbit of the plot are just so
pervasive.
It's just the water we swim in.
And Catherine Ryan, despite thefact that she's enjoying the
(25:48):
play, she's, fully respecting ofthe work, the writing, she's
able to sort of step outside ofit and go.
Wait a minute.
That sucks.
Like that.
That way of looking at things isnot okay.
And she does it in a way, unlikewhat I'm doing here.
That is so goddamn funny.
She's amazing.
So do go, do, go look it up.
(26:09):
It's, it's fabulous.
But anyway, the reason I'mbringing it up at all is that
Artemisia to kind of verb anoun, Catherine Ryan's the
painting of Susanna and theelders.
So.
The Liverpool Museum talks aboutthe scene we are about to, to
look at.
(26:29):
Okay.
And, um, if you could read thatdescription.
Yep.
So quote, the story of Susannaand lust and the corruption of
Susanna tribe.
When she confronted them, theythreatened to blackmail if she
(26:50):
refused to sleep with them.
Mm.
Um, is this biblical?
Yeah.
Oh, uh, she refused and theyaccused her publicly of having
committed adultery for this.
She was condemned to death.
Oh my God.
That spiral, didn't it?
Oh, so grim.
It's grim.
(27:12):
Like, yeah.
See, let a woman have a bath.
Just sad.
That's got nothing to do.
Nothing to do with you.
That really escalated.
That's kind of the point, right?
Because yeah.
That that scene is painted againand again and again in classical
painting.
Probably because it gave theseartists, these men, a chance to
depict female nudity and stillmaintain the moral high ground.
(27:36):
Look, I'm, it's in the Bible.
I'm just saying what's in theBible.
it gets, oh It gets, it gets theblood boiling.
Especially because usually inthese depictions you've got
Susanna kind of like.
Oh, like flirty.
It's peripheral.
It's horrific.
And it's so not what that storyis about, but it, yeah, it's
(27:59):
kind of, yeah, it's just wild.
So Artemisia, technically it's awonderful painting, but what
really catches your interest isthat Catherine Ryan thing that.
She's taking a differentperspective.
So there's a quote here.
She challeng it, she challengesit.
Yeah.
Could you give us this quotefrom the Crimson talking about
her depiction of that scene?
(28:19):
Yes.
A frightened The work istriumphant of Barack to the
clearly and powerfully that'sgood.
(28:41):
So she's given valid yes.
And a realistic response.
I think it's not just, oh, hereI can make some boobies.
She's showing how a person wouldfeel to be, to be put in that
position, which would finger it?
(29:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Disgust and outrage and fear.
And then the shamefulness of itor the person who's stepping
outta the bounds.
It's the elders.
It's where it belongs.
And it was the point of the Riggstory in the first place.
Yeah.
Actually, not that I'm abiblical scholar, but Jesus, you
don't need to be that astute topick up on that.
(29:26):
So despite of this.
Defiant outlook and thesequietly radical themes in her
painting.
Somehow we, see incrediblecareer progression from her.
Okay.
So yeah.
there's a quote here if you careto give it that talks a little
bit about her career.
(29:46):
Yeah.
Quote In 1615 to 1616.
At age 23, Artesia becomes thefirst female member of the De is
Ana in Florence betweeninteresting children.
(30:13):
So we're climbing, we'rebirthing.
Doing it all and that, yeah,that is, I cannot help but
wonder.
if that, how, yeah, like whathas she managed to put into
place that allowed her to keepworking?
(30:34):
What sacrifices is she makingthat allow her to keep working
when many other artists likeJudith Leiser had to take a step
back simply for the fact thatthere was no.
Other way for them at that time,once they had children.
Mm-hmm.
But whatever it was, however shepulled it off, whatever she gave
up in order to do it.
(30:54):
She made a commercial success ofher work.
Yeah.
she even got to a level whereshe was kind of celebrity.
She was invited to London in1638, by Charles the first to
work on portraits andcommissions.
Like you do.
And once that happened, she wasinvited to the Royal Courts in
Madrid and Vienna.
(31:16):
She continued to haveprofessional success in her
lifetime until her death inNaples isn't it know her name?
Yeah.
She was the.
The King of England commissionedher directly.
know her I think high The factthat these things.
(31:38):
Get lost?
Her work, like a lot of other,women artists was sort of
lazily, misattributed toprolific males who worked in a
similar style at a similar time.
So in her case, a lot of herwork was attributed to
Caravaggio.
But in the long run and with alot of effort on the part.
(32:00):
Of catalogers and academics andhistorians.
Her career was unearthed and nowher work is correctly attributed
and hanging in major galleriesall around the world, as it was
all along, just under, just withher name, and right now
supposed, yeah, now we actuallysee it.
Yeah.
With the correct nameattributed.
So, I have a final quote here.
(32:23):
Mm-hmm.
If you would give it, and ittalks about the lasting impact
of her work, per the PortraitSociety of Atlanta of
approximately 60 40 dominatedfrom the viewpoint Artesia.
the lowly often and turned theminto brilliant strong subjects
(32:53):
Oh, well good.
I know.
I know.
It's fabulous and so lasting andsort of.
Respected is that impact thatthere is an artwork called The
Dinner Party by Judy Chicago.
Um, I think you've seen apicture of it, haven't you?
I've seen it, um, but but I tellyou what, I keep thinking Like I
(33:22):
think that it would be worthseeing for sure.
Yes.
Where did we discover it?
It's like in the Bronx orsomething?
In the Bronx Museum.
I mean, which is a bit scary,but you know that in 2020, maybe
in three it four years time.
Yeah.
When indeed, when indeed, atsome point it would be lovely to
go and see it.
(33:42):
We can.
So for people who haven't seenit before, what we're talking
about is this massiveinstallation artwork.
It's a huge triangular dinnertable and there are 39 dinner
place settings around this tablethat celebrate women from all
different.
Spheres, fictional and real.
(34:03):
Mm-hmm.
Of historical significance.
So I like to think of it as thedinner party version of our
podcast.
Yes.
And Vicki, you pointed out to mesomething I didn't know, which
is that on the floor tilesunderneath the piece, there are
like, what, 111 or somethingfurther?
Yeah, further names.
The names, Oh, incredible.
(34:27):
I feel like that's episodesdone, basically.
Right.
It's just gonna be like anindex.
We're just gonna hit it.
Um, so yeah, I mean, Gentiles,she's in there alongside boa, a
name I cannot pronounce, boa.
Bo.
Baria I it the first time.
Oh, I dunno.
I know what you mean.
(34:48):
One of them who?
They're one of, one of them.
Here's one I'm sacred with.
Emily Dickinson.
Eleanor of Acutane Sojo hertruth.
Yes.
And here's Artemesia.
And it just shows howrevolutionary the simple act of
painting from a woman'sperspective was, so simple, but
so powerful.
A lasting value.
And.
whether it's the comedy ofKatherine Ryan, the Art of
(35:11):
Artemisia Gentle, what is beingdone here is that we are being
shown that we can keep an eyeopen to the ways that we are
just sort of accepting ah,that's just how things are.
Yeah.
And they're inviting us to, toattack that, to, to paint
(35:32):
things, to make jokes to.
I'm gonna use her quote to showthe whole illustrious world what
a woman can do.
Oh, beautiful.
I love it.
It makes me wanna to kick downan iron door.
I love it.
Beautiful ending.
I love it.
Yeah,
audio2663295054 (35:54):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com