May 13, 2025 • 39 mins
Catherine the Great (and her Mum!) - more than just a scandal
In this episode of 'She Changed History,' the hosts delve into the fascinating life of Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia. Dispel the myths and rumours surrounding her, and discover the remarkable achievements and challenges Catherine faced during her reign. Learn about her early life, her tumultuous marriage to Peter III, her ascent to power, and her transformative rule marked by progressive reforms in education, social welfare, and international diplomacy. This episode showcases Catherine's enduring legacy, her intellect, ambition, and significant contributions to modernizing Russia.
Sources today are:
- Mainly - Liana Miate https://www.worldhistory.org/Catherine_the_Great/
- https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/catherine_the_great.shtml
- https://www.britannica.com/biography/Catherine-the-Great/Legacy
- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/true-story-catherine-great-180974863/
- https://medium.com/@HMHbooks/seven-of-the-most-maligned-women-in-history-ea1228cc160
- https://historythings.com/historys-nutcases-peter-iii-of-russia/
- https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/chapter/the-age-of-enlightenment/#:~:text=There%20were%20two%20distinct%20lines,systems%20of%20power%20and%20faith.
00:00 Introduction and Banter
01:16 Celebrating Milestones
01:29 Unveiling the Real Catherine the Great
03:35 Catherine's Early Life
05:45 Joanna's Ambitious Plans
10:55 Catherine's Marriage to Peter
11:16 Peter's Struggles and Catherine's Adaptation
16:50 Peter's Reign and Downfall
18:51 Catherine's Bold Moves Against Peter
20:44 The Coup and Catherine's Rise to Power
21:15 Catherine's Lovers and Political Maneuvering
23:52 Catherine's Coronation and Symbolic Crown
26:09 Enlightenment Ideals and Reforms
29:31 Catherine's Educational and Social Reforms
32:18 Challenges and Rebellions During Catherine's Reign
33:27 Catherine's Diplomatic Achievements
36:17 Catherine's Legacy and Final Years
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
video1552204678 (00:08):
She looks lovely.
Yeah.
Okay.
I've got it.
I've got it.
Ready?
Yes, ma'am.
Hi car.
Hi Vicki.
Hi.
How are you?
I Very well, thank you.
It is glorious today.
I am ready.
Full, full of enthusiasm.
Ready to go.
How about you?
(00:28):
Oh, amazing.
I'm good.
I am slightly dry mouthed fromtoo much Prosecco last night.
Ooh, so we'll just have to seehow this rolls.
You are paying the price.
Have you got a drink?
Are you hydrating?
I've got lots of water by me.
It was just one of those timeswhere they were topping you up
and, Aw, I couldn't say no, andit's my, it's not my own city
(00:50):
fault.
It's my fault.
I mean, you're only human whowhen they come round with the
bottle, what are you supposed todo?
Are like you mid-sentence andYeah.
But then, you know, don'tsuccumb to peer pressure.
That's what we were told atschool.
So not doing very well.
Yeah.
What they, we were told loads ofstuff.
Um, of course if you were mychild, I would be saying
(01:10):
something entirely different,but, um, yeah.
Uh, but nevertheless, we've gota lovely story.
So welcome to She ChangedHistory everyone.
Thank you so much for listening.
Oh, we hit a thousand downloads.
Did I tell you?
Marvelous news.
That's like, I can't even beginsay how excited I am.
And yeah, we're very grateful.
Well done.
So I've got a little story foryou today.
(01:32):
It's someone you probably know,right?
But I want to do the story andit's because you probably know
her for something that isn'ttrue.
And we're just going to mythbuss this.
This lady out.
Amazing.
Does that sound good?
Yeah.
So it's like someone we think weknow.
But we don't, yeah.
Mm.
Okay.
Bring it on.
So we're gonna be talking aboutCatherine the greats, and
(01:55):
crucially her mother.
That's the other thing.
So two for one.
Uh, nice.
Got a little intro.
Forget the whispers and the wildrumors.
The real story of Catherine theGreat.
It's a griping tale of ambition,intellect, and a relentless
drive to drag Russia from themedieval ages into the
enlightenment.
(02:15):
More than just a scandalousheadline.
She was a shrewd politicaloperator, a champion of
education in the arts, and anempire builder who left an
indelible mark on historyprepared to discover the
fascinating truth behindCatherine the Great.
So there we go.
What do you know about CatherineThe Great, when I say Catherine
(02:36):
the Great you say.
You say it?
Uh, giddy up, giddy up gi.
That's what I say.
Yeah.
Um, we like what we like, butthat's not cool.
So please dispel that rumor.
Yes.
Uh, we're gonna dispel thatwoman in particular and we are
gonna add lots of layers to thatabout all the cool stuff that
she actually did.
So the sources today are mainlyan article by world history.org.
(03:00):
I rely heavily on that, which iswritten by Liana Mete, a BBC
article on the history figuresection Britannica Smithsonian
magazine.
Um, the true story of Catherinethe Great, A medium.com blog
history things.com.
And, um, there was a littlecourse on Catherine the Great on
Lumen learning, and I took alittle bit of the course fun.
(03:24):
Oh my God, how cool is that?
I love this.
Did you get like a, acertificate at the end?
Look Gold style.
Yeah.
Well done.
You outstanding.
So, Catherine the Great was bornSophie Friedrich Augustus on
whole sub burst, um, on the 2ndof May, 1729 in Setin, which is,
(03:47):
it was then part of Prussia,which is now in Poland.
Her dad was a minor prince, alittle bit like, Princess
Beatrice and Princess Eugenie ifthey had children.
So very minor, very distantroyal kind of thing.
So in that sphere, but notreally expected to be.
(04:08):
Not in the nuclear self, not inthat bit on the, on the edges a
little bit.
She was related through hermother, to the Dukes of
Holstein, which is in Germany.
So her family is noble.
Even though they are noble, it'snot like they're rolling in
money.
One of her younger brothers WillHay and Christian died at 12
from Scarlet Fever.
And because of that, Catherineis said to have quite a close
(04:30):
relationship with her father andher mother.
So they're quite a little closeknit.
Um, they're just trying theirbest.
She did have a governess, whichis very privileged.
It's very nice to have.
Her name is, um, Elizabeth, butthey called her Bbe and she
apparently, she was like a greatinfluence on Catherine growing
up.
And, word is said about Burettethroughout history.
(04:54):
She was the kind of ness thatevery child would wish to have.
I guess, a little bit Marypoppin, I guess, kind of vibe.
So Catherine was a very happychild.
She played games, and she wasquite naturally, quite ballsy, I
think, in the games.
Okay.
She kind of organized all theothers brothers and sisters.
Catherine herself described herchildhood as, um, an eventful.
(05:17):
She said there's nothing ofinterest in it.
When she comes of age, when Isay come of age, I mean.
10 to 12, like back in the day.
Whoa.
Or coming of age back in the daywhere you were married or very,
very young?
I'm thinking 1730s.
Mm-hmm.
Lifespan is probably short.
(05:37):
35, 40.
I guess they're thinking no timeto waste.
Let's, I think so.
Let's get the show on the road.
Yeah.
And her mother was called Joannaand she is.
She was basically not satisfied.
She regretted marrying a man whoshe didn't think was good enough
for her.
And there was a lot ofresentment there.
(05:59):
And she was like, I'm not havingthis for my children.
Joanna was on a mission.
She was like, I'm not lettingthese children be like me.
Which is a very parent thing todo, so Joanna is hell Ben on
securing Catherine a wellconnected husband, right?
That's her one goal.
Ideally.
'cause we're on the outskirts ofRoyal.
Ideally she wants, she wantsPrince, right?
(06:21):
Climb that ladder.
Gotta get there.
Gotta get there.
So in 17, 39, 10-year-oldCatherine meets, 11-year-old
Peter, who is the Duke ofHolstein.
And he's heir to the throne ofSweden, and he's the only living
grandson of Peter the great ofRussia.
So, tiny pizza, well connected.
(06:44):
Yeah, for 11-year-old, that's avery good network.
Fucking quite a good cd.
His LinkedIn is impressive foran 11-year-old.
So he was considered very goodmatch for Catherine and Joanna.
And Joanna was like, yes, fillin this, this is it.
Now.
Joanna is like the secret heroof this story, I think because
(07:07):
she's, she's giving me ChrisJenna vibes.
She's giving me momager.
She's giving me, you know, youwill go to every beauty pageant
you will could do.
Absolutely.
Everything's climb these laddersand be relevant, and there is an
essence of meddling, and I don'tthink it's healthy, but we
cannot underestimate Joanna'sambitions.
(07:27):
And, uh, she relentlessness.
Um, I'm not saying it's a goodthing.
I'm just saying she wasrelentless and I like that it
came from a place of love,didn't it?
She wanted better, like yousaid, she wanted better for her
kids than she herself felt shehad.
But yeah, that would be I.
Relentless and tedious.
I'm like, oh, are you reallywearing that corset?
(07:48):
I mean, oh God, come on, mom,back off.
The pressure must be high,right?
Yeah., she is the queen ofmeddling.
So, um, she had connections withthe Russian empress who was, is
very into the connected, so whowas Joanna's cousin, but also
Tiny Peter's dad.
Um, wow.
Was married so tiny.
(08:09):
Peter's dad was married to theEmpresses older sister.
Right.
So this is like everybody knowseverybody probably related in
some tangential way, likethey're all a big classic.
So related of sorts, basically.
Yeah.
And the Empress had once beenbetrothed to Joanna's older
brother.
So there's even history there.
(08:31):
There's a little bit of history.
They know each other.
The empress was betrayed toJoanna's brother, but he died.
So there's a little bit heartright there.
There's a little bit of traumabonding I imagine.
The one that got away throughdeath.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So Joanna, the mum, sheencourages this, relationship
(08:51):
with the Empress, who'sconnected to Peter, by
organizing gifts and,, makingsure that Catherine is in the
right spaces and goes to theright parties and, oh, all this
kind of, and she meeting youhere like that Oh, oh.
Oh, I happen to have brought youa giraffe.
Yeah.
Basically all that.
Oh, those royals.
(09:12):
And it takes years.
So like I said, Joanna isrelentless.
She starts when Catherine's like10.
Like she really goes heavy onit.
Um, but it does work.
So in January.
In January pageant Mom.
No, I know it shouldn't pay off,but it does.
It does.
It really, it really does.
(09:33):
So in January, 1742, so this islike 10 years or so of meddling,
the Empress names Peter LittlePeter.
Of all the people she could havechosen just happens to choose
Peter as the heir to the throne.
Okay.
Just casually'cause of all thislike little mind games that
Joanna's playing in thebackground.
(09:55):
And then in 1744, Joanna andCatherine are invited to go to
Russia.
By King Friedrich II of pressurewho expresses his wishes for
Catherine's, become the wife ofPeter.
So it's very complicated, butshe's in basically bottom line.
It's Catherine's got him.
So on the 10th of January, 1744,Catherine makes the, makes her
(10:19):
way.
For the, I guess it's like theformal approval of the match.
So she arrives in Russia.
It goes well.
She's assumed the title of GrandDuchess, Catherine Atla Venia
and marries Peter The followingyear I.
So really quick, really BishBash B has happened, right?
(10:39):
Yeah.
John deal.
Let's get it.
Yeah.
Joanna sat there with herProsecco.
She's having a little welcome memoment in the background.
Here's to 10 years ofmeditating.
Done Me.
My future is secure.
But sadly though, Peter wasn'treally into Catherine.
He wasn't that bothered, to behonest.
(11:00):
Oh, Peter, maybe because he'sstill a boy.
He's 11 years old.
He's probably into like, I don'tknow what, like little, little
toy horses, horses or whateverto soldiers, man.
He's a little bit older now, buthe's still not there.
He's still not that bothered.
He's not feeling it.
No.
Also now we're in Russia.
Catherine doesn't know anythingabout this culture, anything
(11:21):
about its language, anythingabout its customs and that I
imagine is very, very lonely.
And then she's got this littlekid who's just like, oh, not
even that bothered by youanyway.
And he's not that bothered withme.
That's such a difficultsituation for a young woman to
be in, right?
But she takes it by the hornsand she goes full on.
(11:44):
I'm in Russian now, I'm gonna doit their way.
So she learns Russian, shelearns the custom, she takes it
very seriously.
She also enters the RussianOrthodox Church, which, you
know, not easy to get into, shehas to do.
And she takes it so seriouslythat she actually becomes ill
from all the pressure and allthe, oh, how tiresome it is, and
(12:06):
she actually becomes ill withpneumonia.
so she's trying really hard.
I guess also, if I was in thissituation and you've got this
kid who you're like, Ugh, you'regonna try and find your own
thing, aren't you?
You're gonna try and find yourown path and make the best of a
bad situation and focus on yourown lane, I think, as well.
So I think that's what she wasdoing.
(12:26):
That makes sense.
And I think it also would be ananswer to some of the
vulnerability you would feelbecause you might be thinking,
um, Peter could just give me theflick at any point.
And then who am I?
'cause I'm only here under hispurview and like if he's not
into me, what then?
So yeah.
Good for her.
Hold that thought.
That is a really Yes.
(12:46):
Great insight.
So the marriage, it turns out awedding is 10 days in Russia,
just a 10 day ceremony.
I was like, that's too manydays.
I'm sorry.
Sorry, isn't it?
So they had 10 days celebratingand then the actual marriage.
But the thing after the 10 dayswas awful.
It was steam, complete failure.
Um, they ended up stayingmarried, I think we're about 18
(13:09):
years, but it was., It wasn'tgreat for Catherine.
She was very disappointed.
Peter Waster, just a, he's thebad guy for the story.
He was physically andemotionally underdeveloped,
which meant that he, thoserelationships didn't come very
easily.
And, in a modern day context,you would think, oh, maybe
that's autism.
(13:30):
Or maybe that's.
A DH adhd, maybe there'ssomething going on there and,
but obviously in the 17 hundredswe didn't have this language.
We didn't have this context orresearch to back that up.
And he's remembered as beingvery immature.
He just wanted to play with histoys all the time.
He didn't want, um, oh, hewasn't interested in
relationships with people.
(13:51):
They didn't consummate themarriage for a really long time.
Oh yeah, I bet.
I mean, he's pictured Peterthroughout history of as being
just this petulant child, likethrowing his toys out.
If I'm spoiled, can'tcommunicate, just, you know, it
is my way or the highway.
Very,, immature.
But it's really important tonote that most of what we know
(14:12):
about Peter comes fromCatherine.
So it's very, it's very onesided, I'd say.
Oh.
Oh right.
I do not doubt for a minute thatthere is historical accuracy
here.
'cause it's obviously so wellsupported by the research you've
done.
But nobody should be solelysubject to history, remembering
(14:36):
them in the words of their worstex.
Like the person who was the mosthurt or disappointed by them.
That is dreadful.
Yeah, that's rough.
That's pretty rough.
So she described him as, um,many things, including extremely
neurotic, rebellious, obstinate,perhaps impotent, and nearly an
alcoholic.
(14:56):
And this is after years oftrying, I think that's really
important.
During the early years of Thera,she really tried to support him.
Like I said, she was down withthe customs.
She understood her role.
She really wanted to be what hermother.
Had put her on this pedestalwhere her mother had done all
this work.
She really wanted to come to theparty.
Isn't that rough?
(15:17):
I mean, for both of them on ahuman level, that their
interpersonal relationships, themost intimate relationships in
their lives are.
Duty bound, and even down totheir actual sex life.
It's like you, you have to,whether you fancy each other or
not, you just gotta get on withit.
Ew.
It's, it's terrible.
Yeah.
No wonder they were frustratedand disappointed.
(15:40):
Absolutely.
And from little Peter's point ofview, when he, he was just 14.
His, um.
Closest relative who was hisaunt, became the empress of
Russia.
She whisked Peter off then fromeverything he knew, she gave him
a Russian name, she inducted himinto the Russian Orthodox faith
and proclaimed him as air to thethrone.
(16:02):
And so, and this happened allwhen he was in those really
formative years.
Yeah.
And because of that experience,he hated Russia.
He hated living in Russia.
Oh God.
Russia people.
But from his point of view, he'sjust been plucked.
And dropped, which is, you know,quite traumatic for a
14-year-old to go through.
Yes, yes indeed.
Yeah.
So from that point of view, youcan kind of see where Peter's
(16:26):
coming from, but also fromCatherine's point of view, she's
like, I'm trying really hard.
I'm, you know, I'm stepping uphere.
Where are you?
And also that doesn't justifythe fact that you then slag off
the people you're leading.
Yeah.
So he's just resentful.
Yeah.
And bitter.
Yeah.
And you can see this isn't justhearsay, a memoirs, there's
(16:47):
actual.
Terms of what he did.
So when he became in power, hewithdrew Russia from a war, even
though they were winning it.
He then plucked them out of thatwar and then started a war with
Denmark, um, which no one wasbehind politically.
He tried to force the RussianOrthodox Church to adopt
(17:07):
Lutheran religious practicebecause that's what he had been
brought up here with.
And this was, he was only on thethrone for six months.
Right.
And in these six months.
Wow.
Yeah, he turned Russia airagainst him in those six months
he was hated.
He.
And it was because he favoredhis native land, which was
Germany.
Right.
And he was just trying to pushthis German way onto everyone,
(17:30):
just his home.
He's like, oh, you've taken meout of Germany, so I'm gonna
make this, I'm gonna make thishappen to you Germany.
I'm king now.
Let's go.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
There was a little bit of thatand a little bit of like.
Trying to push Russia into theground as well, because to him
it was this huge part of hislife that he hated.
So you can see he wasn't verypopular.
(17:51):
Yeah, I get it., Then in 1762,exactly what you said earlier.
Peter's going off on one, right?
He's spiraling.
He is causing havoc, burningfires, burning the whole place
down.
And Catherine starts to suspectthat because they're not getting
on very well, that she suspectsPeter will divorce her.
(18:13):
Which is exactly what you'resaying.
She could drop at a hat.
Yeah.
And in actual fact, she is knownto be the opposite of Peter.
So, in contrast to hisimmaturity, she's known as
clearheaded.
She's known as ambitious, she'sknown as intelligent.
She's really flexible in hercharacter'cause she's swan on
over To Russia and then becamepart of Russia and because of
all this, liked her, they coulddifferentiate between Peter and
(18:36):
Catherine, which I'm not surethat would happen today, but
that's very interesting.
That's really good, isn't it?
Yeah.
That's an interestingobservation too.
She must have charm, right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And she was energetic and bubblyand all those things from her
childhood that we referencedearlier.
The other thing she was happy todo was call Peter out, On his
shitty behavior basically.
(18:58):
Also, I guess from her point ofview, he's embarrassing.
She's just sat there cringingwhile he goes out.
Yeah.
Like I, this is not me.
No.
So, sorry.
I don't have any, but how, Imean, first of all, like, how.
Brave.
And second of all, how shrewd tokind of recognize, right?
I'm meant to be married to thisdude.
(19:19):
He, we're not, it's not working.
He's got complete power over mylife.
So my last salvo, my hail Mary,is to court the people directly
that he's alienating.
Like that's really risky for herto have taken that on.
Yeah.
And also this probably came fromher mother, right?
Who we know is relentless, whowe know has instilled this a
(19:42):
sense of in her who, is.
A little puppeteer in thebackground.
She's probably got some of thoseskills from Joanna, right?
Because she did all that amazinghard work, which is really why I
wanna reference her throughoutthis story as well.
So I do think it's unlikely thatCatherine would've been a
bystander, a a hundred percentof what's happening.
Like, like you said, she'sprobably stood there in the
(20:03):
background, cringing, but Ithink she had more about her,
um, to just not let dogs lie.
She could, but at this point aswell, she probably cares about
her people and cares about hercountry and probably, you know,
wants to, why wouldn't you wannabe successful?
So I don't imagine that shewould be a bystander if there
was something going on todethrone Peter.
(20:26):
But there's nothing in historyto suggest that she was part of
the dethroning process thathappens next.
So, oh, okay.
So she's, she's pumping thebrakes on his worst ideas, but
she's not actively trying tounseat him apparently.
I find that hard to believe,but, apparently.
Okay.
So, there is a coup to unseatPeter, and part of that
(20:50):
dethroning is to put her.
His impress.
So what are you gonna do?
What are you gonna do?
And just as testament to howcrap Peter was, several groups
started plotting against him.
So it wasn't just like a coupleof rebels, it was like really
ice.
And, many want for Catherine tobecome Empress Region, which is
(21:14):
the proper title.
One of Catherine's mostprominent supporters was her
lover.
Oh.
We haven't really spoken abouther lovers.
So, you know, I said earlierthat she, they didn't really
consummate the marriage.
Mm-hmm.
And that is understandable.
Children arrived.
So there was three children whoha ha ha, mysterious.
(21:37):
And essentially I think thestory is She wasn't getting it
at home.
So, and she's in a powerfulposition.
So it'd be quite easy, Iimagine, to, you know.
Flirt and get what you need fromelsewhere.
Yeah.
There's like House of the Dragonvibes here because the, I don't
know if you've watched that, butthere's a storyline that's
basically cut and paste from herlife by the sounds of it.
(22:00):
And in that, one of the anglesthat is explored is that it
actually benefits.
King because there's theimpression of fertility
providing heirs and so on whenhe is actually not interested.
So he's like, yeah, what do,whatever.
As you know, now we've gotprince's amazing, so maybe
(22:21):
there's like, he was just like,turn in a blind eye.
Do what you want.
Yeah, maybe, or I don't know.
I wasn't there, but.
Damn it.
I was also thinking that maybethat was one of the reasons he
was plotting to drop her anddivorce her.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Okay.
Fair.
But then, I dunno.
(22:42):
Um, but anyway, so she haslovers, which, you know, good
for her.
If she's been treated thatbadly, that makes sense.
One of her lovers was Gregoryall over.
He was a Russian guard officer,and he was part of a big family
who all had, um, really high upplaces in the Russian Army.
So good.
Great networking.
(23:03):
Networking.
Is that what we're calling it?
That's what we're calling ittoday.
The Russian officers plot tostage coup.
And, eight days after this CO issuccessful.
It was quite easy to dero it inby all camps.
Oh, her husband Peter was thenassassinated, so there's no
(23:25):
chance of him coming back,taking a dark turn.
But he really pissed, he pissedpeople off.
You know, I think it was morethe only way to really cement
it, unfortunately, was to, tokill him.
He was most likely killed byGregory's brother Alexi.
God.
Contrary to the quite darkrumors.
(23:46):
Catherine, like I said, there'sno evidence that Catherine was
responsible for the, for thekilling, but whew.
What this all means is Catherineis now in a position where she
is ruling Russia, we're now in1762.
She has a lovely, coronation, onthe 22nd of September, 1762 in,
(24:07):
the Assumption Cathedral inMoscow.
She has a crown made for hercoronation and it becomes the
crown that is used for every,suffering, from that point
forward.
Um, I just wanna talk about thecrown because it's beautiful and
I, I'd love to hear it.
Tell me.
I was like, yeah, I'll talkabout this.
(24:28):
I've been looking at met galadresses all week since.
Bring on.
I'm loving it.
Loving it.
So yeah, this is Met gala onsteroids.
So you've got, 75 pearls, adiamond cross, a Ruby 4,936
Indian diamonds and gold andsilver half spheres representing
the Eastern and western Russianempires.
(24:51):
Wow.
I've got a picture of the crownthere Oh, holy shit.
Shit.
It's magnificent.
It's the subtlety that youappreciate, isn't it?
Yeah, that is remarkable.
It was designed by Jeremy Palsy,who was a Swiss French court,
diamond jeweler.
And, um, it's just stunning.
(25:11):
So yes, we'll share that onInstagram as well,'cause I
really like it.
Gorgeous.
I mean, obviously, obviouslyjust exquisite.
Mm-hmm.
And should they just whip thatup just for the correlation
quickly?
Just like 62.
I've had a thought.
How about, There it is.
So, Catherine is in, uh, a hugeposition of power.
(25:33):
Joanna is beside herself withexcitement.
I'm sure she wet herself.
Absolutely.
She's giddy., Look at that crownon my daughter.
She's my, I did that.
This is when really forCatherine, the serious work
starts, right?
This is when all that prep thatshe's done and all that learning
and all that.
Being at one with the Russianculture, she's like, well, I'm
(25:55):
gonna do this, I'm gonna do thisright?
And my God, her reign is so, itmakes me kind of, in a weird
way, yearn for this kind ofruling.
It's really transformative andwell, let's talk through it.
Essentially part of Catherine'sruling was the idea of
enlightenment ideals.
Do you know anything about theenlightenment kind of era?
(26:18):
Nothing, nothing to hang my haton, so I'm looking forward to
hearing that.
Okay.
Me neither.
So it turns out enlightenment isa, um, like a philosophical
movement and it was reallyprominent in Europe during the
18th century.
So exactly where we are.
It is a theory.
It's a philosophy.
There's two kind of strands toit.
The first is radicalenlightenment, which is all
(26:40):
about democracy.
It's about liberty.
It is about freedom of speech,freedom of expression, and
eradication of religiousauthority.
So really strong.
Wow, okay.
This stuff, right?
For some, for particularly for acountry that.
Hasn't experienced those things.
And then the second strand is alot more, it's like a tone down
(27:00):
version of that.
It's like, you know, we're justgonna remove the base so it's
more moderate.
Kind of finding a balancebetween reform and the
traditional system.
So it has the same ideals ofdemocracy and free speech, but
is a little bit softer in itsapproach.
So this is what is underpinningCatherine's reign, right?
(27:22):
And this is from her education.
It's from her learning, she alsolistened to people.
She would pull in experts.
She'd be like, I'm not theexpert on this.
You tell me.
You teach me.
And she, it was coming from areal place of discovery, Why
don't we all do that?
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Yep.
She did many other things.
So she expanded the empire'sborders, which is always a sign
(27:45):
of a very good leader.
She spearheaded, judicial and.
Administrative forum.
So this is basically things likesetting up a justice system,
setting up a finance system, andyou know, really kind of
dragging the country right up tomodern day, right?
the way she does this is using adocument called the statute for
(28:06):
the administration of theprovinces of the Russian Empire.
Whew.
She publishes that document.
It's a living, breathingdocument, as we would say in the
world.
And, it basically, well, I'vegot a little quote that I was
hoping you could read just toexplain what that document does.
The statute set out instructionson the general care and
wellbeing of the Russian peoplewith boards of social welfare
(28:29):
formed under the governor.
In each provincial capital, thesocial welfare Board oversaw
hospitals, workhouses ownshouses, and the house of
correction.
So social worker, very modern.
Yeah.
Like big deal or we all have aconsistent approach.
This is what it's gonna be.
It's been advised by experts andwork non in collaboration and we
(28:52):
will revise it if somethingbetter comes along.
How progressive, how modern, howprogressive.
So cool.
Also progressive.
She dabbled in vaccinations.
She kind of was an advocate ofthat.
And she also was really.
Fond of the art.
So she created a vast artcollection that formed, a
museum, one of the greatest,museums, in terms of volume.
(29:15):
And, on top of all that, shewrote children's stories.
She was like, think of thechildren, which is, there's
nothing she cannot do.
And education.
Children very much at theforefront of what she was, um,
doing as a leader.
So she believed that all Russianchildren should, um, be getting
a European style education.
(29:37):
And she was also passionateabout equality in education.
So not only were the boystaught, the girls were taught
too, ah, yes.
She appointed Ivan Besol as hereducational advisor.
Again, pulling in that.
He advised her that you shouldprobably set up a commission.
And she did that.
She met with other educationalpioneers.
(29:57):
So it was like a good variety ofthought.
So the educational system wasone of her biggest reforms
basically.
It was really transformative.
There's just a tiny little quotethere about it.
If you could read that, please.
The Russian statute of nationalEducation established a two tier
system of primary and highschools free for children of all
(30:20):
classes.
Except surfs?
Oh, yes.
Oh.
Where is this story heading now?
Yeah.
But so the first part of thatquote, brilliant two to his
system.
So you know, the higher you get,the more complex your education
gets.
It's free for children of allclasses.
Brilliant.
Final two words.
(30:43):
So, serves are basicallyRussia's slave system.
Right.
And it was something thatCatherine inherited., She didn't
set out to make a slave system.
It is just something that washappening in Russia at that
time.
Now, she didn't stop the slavesystem.
It's really important to notethat She wasn't an abolitionist,
(31:06):
but she did make reforms to thesystem.
So, you know, we can't sit hereand be like, she was the best
thing ever because she couldhave done more in this field,
but she did make reforms in thatfield.
She prohibited, former serves orslaves from being.
Becoming surfs again.
So once you were out, you wereout.
And she set up a lot of, formalbureaucracies, which meant that
(31:31):
freedom was much easier to comeby and much easier to apply for.
So she kind of shook the systemup, I guess, in that way.
She also allowed slaves to makecomplaints against their
landowners.
And on the face of that, youthink, oh, that's really good.
That's brilliant.
But what that really was, was alittle bit naughty because okay,
there's a complaints process foryou.
(31:51):
What that does is stop them fromrevolting and stop them from
uprising.
Oh.
So it's kind of like in a badworkplace where they're like, oh
yeah, we have a procedure forthat with hr, and then it just
vanishes into room 1 0 1 andbasically it's like, we've dealt
with that due to process, blah,blah, blah.
I tick that box.
Done.
Yeah.
(32:12):
Yeah.
Ew.
And.
She didn't want rebellions andshe didn't want revolt.
She, but we, she was living insuch a turbulent time and doing
so much reform that rebellionswere very much part of the
course.
Really.
And it was something that Ithink was probably one of her
(32:33):
biggest challenges as, a leader.
And there was a rebellion in, 7073 to 70 75, but this was
quashed, along with so manymore.
I think there was 12 rebellionsover her.
Wow.
30 plus year reigns.
That's like.
One almost every two, threeyears.
Right.
That's a lot.
(32:53):
That's of rebellions.
And also, I guess that leadsinto the question that was
everybody on board with theenlightenment?
Probably not exactly.
Like it's dragging peoplekicking and screaming out of
their comfort zone becausefuture, isn't it, I guess.
Yeah.
Still too many rebellions.
So many rebellions and.
But she, held power throughoutthe mall.
(33:14):
She was very in control, veryfirm.
And, she also is desperate forpeace and diplomacy and her
role.
So that was, like I said, one ofthe pillars of enlightenment at
the top.
That was something she reallywanted.
And actually on a politicalinternational stage.
Russia became known as aninternational mediator.
So there were some wars thatRussia was mediating, so the war
(33:38):
of, Barian succession, which wasbetween Priya and Austria, for
example.
And she also established theLeague of Armed Neutrality in
1780, which she was protectingthe neutral interest from the
British Royal Navy during theAmerica Revolution.
Right.
So she was very key worse, aproto nato, like she's out
(34:02):
there.
Yeah.
It's good.
Yeah.
Seemed to be the reliable,steady hand, like clear head.
Mm-hmm.
That's very cool.
And if you compare that to what.
Peter II was doing, which wasjust throwing his toys out the
pram and dumping around,dragging people into war that
they didn't need to be involvedin.
Yeah.
It's completely different,completely the other way around.
(34:24):
And it just shows that she hadthose skills, she had those
leadership and those, worldchanging skills within her, and
she was steadfast in that, whichwas really, and again, this is
all stuff that you don't thinkabout when you think about
Catherine The Gray.
You don't think about, I have noidea any of this idea.
It was really fascinating and ontop of all that, she was often
known for her grace and kindnessand dignity.
(34:49):
Something else Peter didn't do.
It's fascinating and I'm notsaying she's perfect because
we've got the slavery., And herlove life was, known for
ridicule and you know, manylovers, but I'm not saying
that's bad, I'm just saying atthe time it was seen as
scandalous.
And, she was also known to beegotistical, quite vain,
(35:12):
pretentious, domineering, allthose things which I imagine
come with power.
They're very things that youcould describe some of the world
leaders today as, so to me shewas on par.
Like it does.
There's a shadow side that comeswith a.
A thirst for power and anaptitude for power.
And I'm also feeling like I'mhearing echoes of Joanna there.
(35:36):
Like you, you, the apple doesnot fall far from the tree,
maybe.
Absolutely.
Joanna.
And I, and she brought herdaughter up to want more and
want better and be the best.
And you are gonna be eegotistical, vain, and
pretentious.
Off the back of that.
And also I think no matter whatrealm you are in, because even
all those words make me think ofWalt Disney as well.
(35:57):
Like he was, he had this facadeof Walt Disney, the character
that we know, world's happiestplace, whatever it is.
And now, and then, but on thisflip side, he was, he was a
ruthless leader and he wascutthroat.
And that is, you know, it's theebb and flow, I guess, of
leading sometimes.
So she did a lot, Catherine.
(36:20):
She was very busy.
She really did.
She died at the age of 67 on the17th of November, 1796 after
suffering what is thought to bea stroke.
But she has an outstandinglegacy.
She's known as Catherine theGreat, and that endures to this
day.
Perhaps most impressively, shewielded power for three decades.
(36:45):
Despite those uprisings.
And despite that, she didn'treally have any claim to the
throne.
She wasn't born into the throne.
She married into the throne andthen killed the person who
should have been on the throne.
Um, she, well, my clientallegedly, allegedly killed.
Sorry about that.
Yeah.
And me, you don't get that by.
(37:06):
Sheer look, you get that throughhard work and determination.
She did, like you said, draggedRussia into the modern world,
kicking and screaming.
And she did largely succeed indoing that.
And she got children loads ofeducation because of that.
She got justice system.
Because of that, there's so manythings that she did that have
(37:26):
been forgotten, and sadly, theaverage person on the street is
more likely to.
And know her for the urban myththat she died having sex on a
horse.
So while the myths may linger,remember this, Catherine the
greats was a force of intellectand will she seized her power.
(37:48):
She understood what she needed,she.
Absolutely modernized nation atthat time and engaged with the
greatest minds that she couldfind.
Her true legacy lies not insensational stories, but in her
profound and lastingtransformation of Russia.
Well, thank you so much, much.
(38:09):
I was one of the ignorant,benighted people who only knew,
knew you, the fleas.
Yeah.
Isn't it just typical that a wayto undermine a woman of
accomplishment and power.
Is to say something s muddyabout her, you know?
(38:29):
Yeah.
Agree.
That like slut shaming.
Despite the fact that she waschanging things and we all hate
change, She was still in powerfor three decades in a time of
constant turmoil and uprising.
Yeah, that speaks volumes'causeclearly from what happened to
her little Peter.
They would depose a bitch ifthey did not.
(38:51):
Like, if the people did not likeit, that person's gone.
So, clearly despite doing thingsthat people would've found
uncomfortable, she wasbenefiting the nation.
Yeah.
No, I like her.
And an amazing crown.
Yeah.
What's not to love?
On top of everything else, superdu.
audio2663295054 (39:18):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
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She Changed history@gmail.com.
She looks lovely.
Yeah.
Okay.
I've got it.
I've got it.
Ready?
Yes, ma'am.
Hi car.
Hi Vicki.
Hi.
How are you?
I Very well, thank you.
It is glorious today.
I am ready.
Full, full of enthusiasm.
Ready to go.
How about you?
(00:28):
Oh, amazing.
I'm good.
I am slightly dry mouthed fromtoo much Prosecco last night.
Ooh, so we'll just have to seehow this rolls.
You are paying the price.
Have you got a drink?
Are you hydrating?
I've got lots of water by me.
It was just one of those timeswhere they were topping you up
and, Aw, I couldn't say no, andit's my, it's not my own city
(00:50):
fault.
It's my fault.
I mean, you're only human whowhen they come round with the
bottle, what are you supposed todo?
Are like you mid-sentence andYeah.
But then, you know, don'tsuccumb to peer pressure.
That's what we were told atschool.
So not doing very well.
Yeah.
What they, we were told loads ofstuff.
Um, of course if you were mychild, I would be saying
(01:10):
something entirely different,but, um, yeah.
Uh, but nevertheless, we've gota lovely story.
So welcome to She ChangedHistory everyone.
Thank you so much for listening.
Oh, we hit a thousand downloads.
Did I tell you?
Marvelous news.
That's like, I can't even beginsay how excited I am.
And yeah, we're very grateful.
Well done.
So I've got a little story foryou today.
(01:32):
It's someone you probably know,right?
But I want to do the story andit's because you probably know
her for something that isn'ttrue.
And we're just going to mythbuss this.
This lady out.
Amazing.
Does that sound good?
Yeah.
So it's like someone we think weknow.
But we don't, yeah.
Mm.
Okay.
Bring it on.
So we're gonna be talking aboutCatherine the greats, and
(01:55):
crucially her mother.
That's the other thing.
So two for one.
Uh, nice.
Got a little intro.
Forget the whispers and the wildrumors.
The real story of Catherine theGreat.
It's a griping tale of ambition,intellect, and a relentless
drive to drag Russia from themedieval ages into the
enlightenment.
(02:15):
More than just a scandalousheadline.
She was a shrewd politicaloperator, a champion of
education in the arts, and anempire builder who left an
indelible mark on historyprepared to discover the
fascinating truth behindCatherine the Great.
So there we go.
What do you know about CatherineThe Great, when I say Catherine
(02:36):
the Great you say.
You say it?
Uh, giddy up, giddy up gi.
That's what I say.
Yeah.
Um, we like what we like, butthat's not cool.
So please dispel that rumor.
Yes.
Uh, we're gonna dispel thatwoman in particular and we are
gonna add lots of layers to thatabout all the cool stuff that
she actually did.
So the sources today are mainlyan article by world history.org.
(03:00):
I rely heavily on that, which iswritten by Liana Mete, a BBC
article on the history figuresection Britannica Smithsonian
magazine.
Um, the true story of Catherinethe Great, A medium.com blog
history things.com.
And, um, there was a littlecourse on Catherine the Great on
Lumen learning, and I took alittle bit of the course fun.
(03:24):
Oh my God, how cool is that?
I love this.
Did you get like a, acertificate at the end?
Look Gold style.
Yeah.
Well done.
You outstanding.
So, Catherine the Great was bornSophie Friedrich Augustus on
whole sub burst, um, on the 2ndof May, 1729 in Setin, which is,
(03:47):
it was then part of Prussia,which is now in Poland.
Her dad was a minor prince, alittle bit like, Princess
Beatrice and Princess Eugenie ifthey had children.
So very minor, very distantroyal kind of thing.
So in that sphere, but notreally expected to be.
(04:08):
Not in the nuclear self, not inthat bit on the, on the edges a
little bit.
She was related through hermother, to the Dukes of
Holstein, which is in Germany.
So her family is noble.
Even though they are noble, it'snot like they're rolling in
money.
One of her younger brothers WillHay and Christian died at 12
from Scarlet Fever.
And because of that, Catherineis said to have quite a close
(04:30):
relationship with her father andher mother.
So they're quite a little closeknit.
Um, they're just trying theirbest.
She did have a governess, whichis very privileged.
It's very nice to have.
Her name is, um, Elizabeth, butthey called her Bbe and she
apparently, she was like a greatinfluence on Catherine growing
up.
And, word is said about Burettethroughout history.
(04:54):
She was the kind of ness thatevery child would wish to have.
I guess, a little bit Marypoppin, I guess, kind of vibe.
So Catherine was a very happychild.
She played games, and she wasquite naturally, quite ballsy, I
think, in the games.
Okay.
She kind of organized all theothers brothers and sisters.
Catherine herself described herchildhood as, um, an eventful.
(05:17):
She said there's nothing ofinterest in it.
When she comes of age, when Isay come of age, I mean.
10 to 12, like back in the day.
Whoa.
Or coming of age back in the daywhere you were married or very,
very young?
I'm thinking 1730s.
Mm-hmm.
Lifespan is probably short.
(05:37):
35, 40.
I guess they're thinking no timeto waste.
Let's, I think so.
Let's get the show on the road.
Yeah.
And her mother was called Joannaand she is.
She was basically not satisfied.
She regretted marrying a man whoshe didn't think was good enough
for her.
And there was a lot ofresentment there.
(05:59):
And she was like, I'm not havingthis for my children.
Joanna was on a mission.
She was like, I'm not lettingthese children be like me.
Which is a very parent thing todo, so Joanna is hell Ben on
securing Catherine a wellconnected husband, right?
That's her one goal.
Ideally.
'cause we're on the outskirts ofRoyal.
Ideally she wants, she wantsPrince, right?
(06:21):
Climb that ladder.
Gotta get there.
Gotta get there.
So in 17, 39, 10-year-oldCatherine meets, 11-year-old
Peter, who is the Duke ofHolstein.
And he's heir to the throne ofSweden, and he's the only living
grandson of Peter the great ofRussia.
So, tiny pizza, well connected.
(06:44):
Yeah, for 11-year-old, that's avery good network.
Fucking quite a good cd.
His LinkedIn is impressive foran 11-year-old.
So he was considered very goodmatch for Catherine and Joanna.
And Joanna was like, yes, fillin this, this is it.
Now.
Joanna is like the secret heroof this story, I think because
(07:07):
she's, she's giving me ChrisJenna vibes.
She's giving me momager.
She's giving me, you know, youwill go to every beauty pageant
you will could do.
Absolutely.
Everything's climb these laddersand be relevant, and there is an
essence of meddling, and I don'tthink it's healthy, but we
cannot underestimate Joanna'sambitions.
(07:27):
And, uh, she relentlessness.
Um, I'm not saying it's a goodthing.
I'm just saying she wasrelentless and I like that it
came from a place of love,didn't it?
She wanted better, like yousaid, she wanted better for her
kids than she herself felt shehad.
But yeah, that would be I.
Relentless and tedious.
I'm like, oh, are you reallywearing that corset?
(07:48):
I mean, oh God, come on, mom,back off.
The pressure must be high,right?
Yeah., she is the queen ofmeddling.
So, um, she had connections withthe Russian empress who was, is
very into the connected, so whowas Joanna's cousin, but also
Tiny Peter's dad.
Um, wow.
Was married so tiny.
(08:09):
Peter's dad was married to theEmpresses older sister.
Right.
So this is like everybody knowseverybody probably related in
some tangential way, likethey're all a big classic.
So related of sorts, basically.
Yeah.
And the Empress had once beenbetrothed to Joanna's older
brother.
So there's even history there.
(08:31):
There's a little bit of history.
They know each other.
The empress was betrayed toJoanna's brother, but he died.
So there's a little bit heartright there.
There's a little bit of traumabonding I imagine.
The one that got away throughdeath.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So Joanna, the mum, sheencourages this, relationship
(08:51):
with the Empress, who'sconnected to Peter, by
organizing gifts and,, makingsure that Catherine is in the
right spaces and goes to theright parties and, oh, all this
kind of, and she meeting youhere like that Oh, oh.
Oh, I happen to have brought youa giraffe.
Yeah.
Basically all that.
Oh, those royals.
(09:12):
And it takes years.
So like I said, Joanna isrelentless.
She starts when Catherine's like10.
Like she really goes heavy onit.
Um, but it does work.
So in January.
In January pageant Mom.
No, I know it shouldn't pay off,but it does.
It does.
It really, it really does.
(09:33):
So in January, 1742, so this islike 10 years or so of meddling,
the Empress names Peter LittlePeter.
Of all the people she could havechosen just happens to choose
Peter as the heir to the throne.
Okay.
Just casually'cause of all thislike little mind games that
Joanna's playing in thebackground.
(09:55):
And then in 1744, Joanna andCatherine are invited to go to
Russia.
By King Friedrich II of pressurewho expresses his wishes for
Catherine's, become the wife ofPeter.
So it's very complicated, butshe's in basically bottom line.
It's Catherine's got him.
So on the 10th of January, 1744,Catherine makes the, makes her
(10:19):
way.
For the, I guess it's like theformal approval of the match.
So she arrives in Russia.
It goes well.
She's assumed the title of GrandDuchess, Catherine Atla Venia
and marries Peter The followingyear I.
So really quick, really BishBash B has happened, right?
(10:39):
Yeah.
John deal.
Let's get it.
Yeah.
Joanna sat there with herProsecco.
She's having a little welcome memoment in the background.
Here's to 10 years ofmeditating.
Done Me.
My future is secure.
But sadly though, Peter wasn'treally into Catherine.
He wasn't that bothered, to behonest.
(11:00):
Oh, Peter, maybe because he'sstill a boy.
He's 11 years old.
He's probably into like, I don'tknow what, like little, little
toy horses, horses or whateverto soldiers, man.
He's a little bit older now, buthe's still not there.
He's still not that bothered.
He's not feeling it.
No.
Also now we're in Russia.
Catherine doesn't know anythingabout this culture, anything
(11:21):
about its language, anythingabout its customs and that I
imagine is very, very lonely.
And then she's got this littlekid who's just like, oh, not
even that bothered by youanyway.
And he's not that bothered withme.
That's such a difficultsituation for a young woman to
be in, right?
But she takes it by the hornsand she goes full on.
(11:44):
I'm in Russian now, I'm gonna doit their way.
So she learns Russian, shelearns the custom, she takes it
very seriously.
She also enters the RussianOrthodox Church, which, you
know, not easy to get into, shehas to do.
And she takes it so seriouslythat she actually becomes ill
from all the pressure and allthe, oh, how tiresome it is, and
(12:06):
she actually becomes ill withpneumonia.
so she's trying really hard.
I guess also, if I was in thissituation and you've got this
kid who you're like, Ugh, you'regonna try and find your own
thing, aren't you?
You're gonna try and find yourown path and make the best of a
bad situation and focus on yourown lane, I think, as well.
So I think that's what she wasdoing.
(12:26):
That makes sense.
And I think it also would be ananswer to some of the
vulnerability you would feelbecause you might be thinking,
um, Peter could just give me theflick at any point.
And then who am I?
'cause I'm only here under hispurview and like if he's not
into me, what then?
So yeah.
Good for her.
Hold that thought.
That is a really Yes.
(12:46):
Great insight.
So the marriage, it turns out awedding is 10 days in Russia,
just a 10 day ceremony.
I was like, that's too manydays.
I'm sorry.
Sorry, isn't it?
So they had 10 days celebratingand then the actual marriage.
But the thing after the 10 dayswas awful.
It was steam, complete failure.
Um, they ended up stayingmarried, I think we're about 18
(13:09):
years, but it was., It wasn'tgreat for Catherine.
She was very disappointed.
Peter Waster, just a, he's thebad guy for the story.
He was physically andemotionally underdeveloped,
which meant that he, thoserelationships didn't come very
easily.
And, in a modern day context,you would think, oh, maybe
that's autism.
(13:30):
Or maybe that's.
A DH adhd, maybe there'ssomething going on there and,
but obviously in the 17 hundredswe didn't have this language.
We didn't have this context orresearch to back that up.
And he's remembered as beingvery immature.
He just wanted to play with histoys all the time.
He didn't want, um, oh, hewasn't interested in
relationships with people.
(13:51):
They didn't consummate themarriage for a really long time.
Oh yeah, I bet.
I mean, he's pictured Peterthroughout history of as being
just this petulant child, likethrowing his toys out.
If I'm spoiled, can'tcommunicate, just, you know, it
is my way or the highway.
Very,, immature.
But it's really important tonote that most of what we know
(14:12):
about Peter comes fromCatherine.
So it's very, it's very onesided, I'd say.
Oh.
Oh right.
I do not doubt for a minute thatthere is historical accuracy
here.
'cause it's obviously so wellsupported by the research you've
done.
But nobody should be solelysubject to history, remembering
(14:36):
them in the words of their worstex.
Like the person who was the mosthurt or disappointed by them.
That is dreadful.
Yeah, that's rough.
That's pretty rough.
So she described him as, um,many things, including extremely
neurotic, rebellious, obstinate,perhaps impotent, and nearly an
alcoholic.
(14:56):
And this is after years oftrying, I think that's really
important.
During the early years of Thera,she really tried to support him.
Like I said, she was down withthe customs.
She understood her role.
She really wanted to be what hermother.
Had put her on this pedestalwhere her mother had done all
this work.
She really wanted to come to theparty.
Isn't that rough?
(15:17):
I mean, for both of them on ahuman level, that their
interpersonal relationships, themost intimate relationships in
their lives are.
Duty bound, and even down totheir actual sex life.
It's like you, you have to,whether you fancy each other or
not, you just gotta get on withit.
Ew.
It's, it's terrible.
Yeah.
No wonder they were frustratedand disappointed.
(15:40):
Absolutely.
And from little Peter's point ofview, when he, he was just 14.
His, um.
Closest relative who was hisaunt, became the empress of
Russia.
She whisked Peter off then fromeverything he knew, she gave him
a Russian name, she inducted himinto the Russian Orthodox faith
and proclaimed him as air to thethrone.
(16:02):
And so, and this happened allwhen he was in those really
formative years.
Yeah.
And because of that experience,he hated Russia.
He hated living in Russia.
Oh God.
Russia people.
But from his point of view, he'sjust been plucked.
And dropped, which is, you know,quite traumatic for a
14-year-old to go through.
Yes, yes indeed.
Yeah.
So from that point of view, youcan kind of see where Peter's
(16:26):
coming from, but also fromCatherine's point of view, she's
like, I'm trying really hard.
I'm, you know, I'm stepping uphere.
Where are you?
And also that doesn't justifythe fact that you then slag off
the people you're leading.
Yeah.
So he's just resentful.
Yeah.
And bitter.
Yeah.
And you can see this isn't justhearsay, a memoirs, there's
(16:47):
actual.
Terms of what he did.
So when he became in power, hewithdrew Russia from a war, even
though they were winning it.
He then plucked them out of thatwar and then started a war with
Denmark, um, which no one wasbehind politically.
He tried to force the RussianOrthodox Church to adopt
(17:07):
Lutheran religious practicebecause that's what he had been
brought up here with.
And this was, he was only on thethrone for six months.
Right.
And in these six months.
Wow.
Yeah, he turned Russia airagainst him in those six months
he was hated.
He.
And it was because he favoredhis native land, which was
Germany.
Right.
And he was just trying to pushthis German way onto everyone,
(17:30):
just his home.
He's like, oh, you've taken meout of Germany, so I'm gonna
make this, I'm gonna make thishappen to you Germany.
I'm king now.
Let's go.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
There was a little bit of thatand a little bit of like.
Trying to push Russia into theground as well, because to him
it was this huge part of hislife that he hated.
So you can see he wasn't verypopular.
(17:51):
Yeah, I get it., Then in 1762,exactly what you said earlier.
Peter's going off on one, right?
He's spiraling.
He is causing havoc, burningfires, burning the whole place
down.
And Catherine starts to suspectthat because they're not getting
on very well, that she suspectsPeter will divorce her.
(18:13):
Which is exactly what you'resaying.
She could drop at a hat.
Yeah.
And in actual fact, she is knownto be the opposite of Peter.
So, in contrast to hisimmaturity, she's known as
clearheaded.
She's known as ambitious, she'sknown as intelligent.
She's really flexible in hercharacter'cause she's swan on
over To Russia and then becamepart of Russia and because of
all this, liked her, they coulddifferentiate between Peter and
(18:36):
Catherine, which I'm not surethat would happen today, but
that's very interesting.
That's really good, isn't it?
Yeah.
That's an interestingobservation too.
She must have charm, right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And she was energetic and bubblyand all those things from her
childhood that we referencedearlier.
The other thing she was happy todo was call Peter out, On his
shitty behavior basically.
(18:58):
Also, I guess from her point ofview, he's embarrassing.
She's just sat there cringingwhile he goes out.
Yeah.
Like I, this is not me.
No.
So, sorry.
I don't have any, but how, Imean, first of all, like, how.
Brave.
And second of all, how shrewd tokind of recognize, right?
I'm meant to be married to thisdude.
(19:19):
He, we're not, it's not working.
He's got complete power over mylife.
So my last salvo, my hail Mary,is to court the people directly
that he's alienating.
Like that's really risky for herto have taken that on.
Yeah.
And also this probably came fromher mother, right?
Who we know is relentless, whowe know has instilled this a
(19:42):
sense of in her who, is.
A little puppeteer in thebackground.
She's probably got some of thoseskills from Joanna, right?
Because she did all that amazinghard work, which is really why I
wanna reference her throughoutthis story as well.
So I do think it's unlikely thatCatherine would've been a
bystander, a a hundred percentof what's happening.
Like, like you said, she'sprobably stood there in the
(20:03):
background, cringing, but Ithink she had more about her,
um, to just not let dogs lie.
She could, but at this point aswell, she probably cares about
her people and cares about hercountry and probably, you know,
wants to, why wouldn't you wannabe successful?
So I don't imagine that shewould be a bystander if there
was something going on todethrone Peter.
(20:26):
But there's nothing in historyto suggest that she was part of
the dethroning process thathappens next.
So, oh, okay.
So she's, she's pumping thebrakes on his worst ideas, but
she's not actively trying tounseat him apparently.
I find that hard to believe,but, apparently.
Okay.
So, there is a coup to unseatPeter, and part of that
(20:50):
dethroning is to put her.
His impress.
So what are you gonna do?
What are you gonna do?
And just as testament to howcrap Peter was, several groups
started plotting against him.
So it wasn't just like a coupleof rebels, it was like really
ice.
And, many want for Catherine tobecome Empress Region, which is
(21:14):
the proper title.
One of Catherine's mostprominent supporters was her
lover.
Oh.
We haven't really spoken abouther lovers.
So, you know, I said earlierthat she, they didn't really
consummate the marriage.
Mm-hmm.
And that is understandable.
Children arrived.
So there was three children whoha ha ha, mysterious.
(21:37):
And essentially I think thestory is She wasn't getting it
at home.
So, and she's in a powerfulposition.
So it'd be quite easy, Iimagine, to, you know.
Flirt and get what you need fromelsewhere.
Yeah.
There's like House of the Dragonvibes here because the, I don't
know if you've watched that, butthere's a storyline that's
basically cut and paste from herlife by the sounds of it.
(22:00):
And in that, one of the anglesthat is explored is that it
actually benefits.
King because there's theimpression of fertility
providing heirs and so on whenhe is actually not interested.
So he's like, yeah, what do,whatever.
As you know, now we've gotprince's amazing, so maybe
(22:21):
there's like, he was just like,turn in a blind eye.
Do what you want.
Yeah, maybe, or I don't know.
I wasn't there, but.
Damn it.
I was also thinking that maybethat was one of the reasons he
was plotting to drop her anddivorce her.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Okay.
Fair.
But then, I dunno.
(22:42):
Um, but anyway, so she haslovers, which, you know, good
for her.
If she's been treated thatbadly, that makes sense.
One of her lovers was Gregoryall over.
He was a Russian guard officer,and he was part of a big family
who all had, um, really high upplaces in the Russian Army.
So good.
Great networking.
(23:03):
Networking.
Is that what we're calling it?
That's what we're calling ittoday.
The Russian officers plot tostage coup.
And, eight days after this CO issuccessful.
It was quite easy to dero it inby all camps.
Oh, her husband Peter was thenassassinated, so there's no
(23:25):
chance of him coming back,taking a dark turn.
But he really pissed, he pissedpeople off.
You know, I think it was morethe only way to really cement
it, unfortunately, was to, tokill him.
He was most likely killed byGregory's brother Alexi.
God.
Contrary to the quite darkrumors.
(23:46):
Catherine, like I said, there'sno evidence that Catherine was
responsible for the, for thekilling, but whew.
What this all means is Catherineis now in a position where she
is ruling Russia, we're now in1762.
She has a lovely, coronation, onthe 22nd of September, 1762 in,
(24:07):
the Assumption Cathedral inMoscow.
She has a crown made for hercoronation and it becomes the
crown that is used for every,suffering, from that point
forward.
Um, I just wanna talk about thecrown because it's beautiful and
I, I'd love to hear it.
Tell me.
I was like, yeah, I'll talkabout this.
(24:28):
I've been looking at met galadresses all week since.
Bring on.
I'm loving it.
Loving it.
So yeah, this is Met gala onsteroids.
So you've got, 75 pearls, adiamond cross, a Ruby 4,936
Indian diamonds and gold andsilver half spheres representing
the Eastern and western Russianempires.
(24:51):
Wow.
I've got a picture of the crownthere Oh, holy shit.
Shit.
It's magnificent.
It's the subtlety that youappreciate, isn't it?
Yeah, that is remarkable.
It was designed by Jeremy Palsy,who was a Swiss French court,
diamond jeweler.
And, um, it's just stunning.
(25:11):
So yes, we'll share that onInstagram as well,'cause I
really like it.
Gorgeous.
I mean, obviously, obviouslyjust exquisite.
Mm-hmm.
And should they just whip thatup just for the correlation
quickly?
Just like 62.
I've had a thought.
How about, There it is.
So, Catherine is in, uh, a hugeposition of power.
(25:33):
Joanna is beside herself withexcitement.
I'm sure she wet herself.
Absolutely.
She's giddy., Look at that crownon my daughter.
She's my, I did that.
This is when really forCatherine, the serious work
starts, right?
This is when all that prep thatshe's done and all that learning
and all that.
Being at one with the Russianculture, she's like, well, I'm
(25:55):
gonna do this, I'm gonna do thisright?
And my God, her reign is so, itmakes me kind of, in a weird
way, yearn for this kind ofruling.
It's really transformative andwell, let's talk through it.
Essentially part of Catherine'sruling was the idea of
enlightenment ideals.
Do you know anything about theenlightenment kind of era?
(26:18):
Nothing, nothing to hang my haton, so I'm looking forward to
hearing that.
Okay.
Me neither.
So it turns out enlightenment isa, um, like a philosophical
movement and it was reallyprominent in Europe during the
18th century.
So exactly where we are.
It is a theory.
It's a philosophy.
There's two kind of strands toit.
The first is radicalenlightenment, which is all
(26:40):
about democracy.
It's about liberty.
It is about freedom of speech,freedom of expression, and
eradication of religiousauthority.
So really strong.
Wow, okay.
This stuff, right?
For some, for particularly for acountry that.
Hasn't experienced those things.
And then the second strand is alot more, it's like a tone down
(27:00):
version of that.
It's like, you know, we're justgonna remove the base so it's
more moderate.
Kind of finding a balancebetween reform and the
traditional system.
So it has the same ideals ofdemocracy and free speech, but
is a little bit softer in itsapproach.
So this is what is underpinningCatherine's reign, right?
(27:22):
And this is from her education.
It's from her learning, she alsolistened to people.
She would pull in experts.
She'd be like, I'm not theexpert on this.
You tell me.
You teach me.
And she, it was coming from areal place of discovery, Why
don't we all do that?
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Yep.
She did many other things.
So she expanded the empire'sborders, which is always a sign
(27:45):
of a very good leader.
She spearheaded, judicial and.
Administrative forum.
So this is basically things likesetting up a justice system,
setting up a finance system, andyou know, really kind of
dragging the country right up tomodern day, right?
the way she does this is using adocument called the statute for
(28:06):
the administration of theprovinces of the Russian Empire.
Whew.
She publishes that document.
It's a living, breathingdocument, as we would say in the
world.
And, it basically, well, I'vegot a little quote that I was
hoping you could read just toexplain what that document does.
The statute set out instructionson the general care and
wellbeing of the Russian peoplewith boards of social welfare
(28:29):
formed under the governor.
In each provincial capital, thesocial welfare Board oversaw
hospitals, workhouses ownshouses, and the house of
correction.
So social worker, very modern.
Yeah.
Like big deal or we all have aconsistent approach.
This is what it's gonna be.
It's been advised by experts andwork non in collaboration and we
(28:52):
will revise it if somethingbetter comes along.
How progressive, how modern, howprogressive.
So cool.
Also progressive.
She dabbled in vaccinations.
She kind of was an advocate ofthat.
And she also was really.
Fond of the art.
So she created a vast artcollection that formed, a
museum, one of the greatest,museums, in terms of volume.
(29:15):
And, on top of all that, shewrote children's stories.
She was like, think of thechildren, which is, there's
nothing she cannot do.
And education.
Children very much at theforefront of what she was, um,
doing as a leader.
So she believed that all Russianchildren should, um, be getting
a European style education.
(29:37):
And she was also passionateabout equality in education.
So not only were the boystaught, the girls were taught
too, ah, yes.
She appointed Ivan Besol as hereducational advisor.
Again, pulling in that.
He advised her that you shouldprobably set up a commission.
And she did that.
She met with other educationalpioneers.
(29:57):
So it was like a good variety ofthought.
So the educational system wasone of her biggest reforms
basically.
It was really transformative.
There's just a tiny little quotethere about it.
If you could read that, please.
The Russian statute of nationalEducation established a two tier
system of primary and highschools free for children of all
(30:20):
classes.
Except surfs?
Oh, yes.
Oh.
Where is this story heading now?
Yeah.
But so the first part of thatquote, brilliant two to his
system.
So you know, the higher you get,the more complex your education
gets.
It's free for children of allclasses.
Brilliant.
Final two words.
(30:43):
So, serves are basicallyRussia's slave system.
Right.
And it was something thatCatherine inherited., She didn't
set out to make a slave system.
It is just something that washappening in Russia at that
time.
Now, she didn't stop the slavesystem.
It's really important to notethat She wasn't an abolitionist,
(31:06):
but she did make reforms to thesystem.
So, you know, we can't sit hereand be like, she was the best
thing ever because she couldhave done more in this field,
but she did make reforms in thatfield.
She prohibited, former serves orslaves from being.
Becoming surfs again.
So once you were out, you wereout.
And she set up a lot of, formalbureaucracies, which meant that
(31:31):
freedom was much easier to comeby and much easier to apply for.
So she kind of shook the systemup, I guess, in that way.
She also allowed slaves to makecomplaints against their
landowners.
And on the face of that, youthink, oh, that's really good.
That's brilliant.
But what that really was, was alittle bit naughty because okay,
there's a complaints process foryou.
(31:51):
What that does is stop them fromrevolting and stop them from
uprising.
Oh.
So it's kind of like in a badworkplace where they're like, oh
yeah, we have a procedure forthat with hr, and then it just
vanishes into room 1 0 1 andbasically it's like, we've dealt
with that due to process, blah,blah, blah.
I tick that box.
Done.
Yeah.
(32:12):
Yeah.
Ew.
And.
She didn't want rebellions andshe didn't want revolt.
She, but we, she was living insuch a turbulent time and doing
so much reform that rebellionswere very much part of the
course.
Really.
And it was something that Ithink was probably one of her
(32:33):
biggest challenges as, a leader.
And there was a rebellion in, 7073 to 70 75, but this was
quashed, along with so manymore.
I think there was 12 rebellionsover her.
Wow.
30 plus year reigns.
That's like.
One almost every two, threeyears.
Right.
That's a lot.
(32:53):
That's of rebellions.
And also, I guess that leadsinto the question that was
everybody on board with theenlightenment?
Probably not exactly.
Like it's dragging peoplekicking and screaming out of
their comfort zone becausefuture, isn't it, I guess.
Yeah.
Still too many rebellions.
So many rebellions and.
But she, held power throughoutthe mall.
(33:14):
She was very in control, veryfirm.
And, she also is desperate forpeace and diplomacy and her
role.
So that was, like I said, one ofthe pillars of enlightenment at
the top.
That was something she reallywanted.
And actually on a politicalinternational stage.
Russia became known as aninternational mediator.
So there were some wars thatRussia was mediating, so the war
(33:38):
of, Barian succession, which wasbetween Priya and Austria, for
example.
And she also established theLeague of Armed Neutrality in
1780, which she was protectingthe neutral interest from the
British Royal Navy during theAmerica Revolution.
Right.
So she was very key worse, aproto nato, like she's out
(34:02):
there.
Yeah.
It's good.
Yeah.
Seemed to be the reliable,steady hand, like clear head.
Mm-hmm.
That's very cool.
And if you compare that to what.
Peter II was doing, which wasjust throwing his toys out the
pram and dumping around,dragging people into war that
they didn't need to be involvedin.
Yeah.
It's completely different,completely the other way around.
(34:24):
And it just shows that she hadthose skills, she had those
leadership and those, worldchanging skills within her, and
she was steadfast in that, whichwas really, and again, this is
all stuff that you don't thinkabout when you think about
Catherine The Gray.
You don't think about, I have noidea any of this idea.
It was really fascinating and ontop of all that, she was often
known for her grace and kindnessand dignity.
(34:49):
Something else Peter didn't do.
It's fascinating and I'm notsaying she's perfect because
we've got the slavery., And herlove life was, known for
ridicule and you know, manylovers, but I'm not saying
that's bad, I'm just saying atthe time it was seen as
scandalous.
And, she was also known to beegotistical, quite vain,
(35:12):
pretentious, domineering, allthose things which I imagine
come with power.
They're very things that youcould describe some of the world
leaders today as, so to me shewas on par.
Like it does.
There's a shadow side that comeswith a.
A thirst for power and anaptitude for power.
And I'm also feeling like I'mhearing echoes of Joanna there.
(35:36):
Like you, you, the apple doesnot fall far from the tree,
maybe.
Absolutely.
Joanna.
And I, and she brought herdaughter up to want more and
want better and be the best.
And you are gonna be eegotistical, vain, and
pretentious.
Off the back of that.
And also I think no matter whatrealm you are in, because even
all those words make me think ofWalt Disney as well.
(35:57):
Like he was, he had this facadeof Walt Disney, the character
that we know, world's happiestplace, whatever it is.
And now, and then, but on thisflip side, he was, he was a
ruthless leader and he wascutthroat.
And that is, you know, it's theebb and flow, I guess, of
leading sometimes.
So she did a lot, Catherine.
(36:20):
She was very busy.
She really did.
She died at the age of 67 on the17th of November, 1796 after
suffering what is thought to bea stroke.
But she has an outstandinglegacy.
She's known as Catherine theGreat, and that endures to this
day.
Perhaps most impressively, shewielded power for three decades.
(36:45):
Despite those uprisings.
And despite that, she didn'treally have any claim to the
throne.
She wasn't born into the throne.
She married into the throne andthen killed the person who
should have been on the throne.
Um, she, well, my clientallegedly, allegedly killed.
Sorry about that.
Yeah.
And me, you don't get that by.
(37:06):
Sheer look, you get that throughhard work and determination.
She did, like you said, draggedRussia into the modern world,
kicking and screaming.
And she did largely succeed indoing that.
And she got children loads ofeducation because of that.
She got justice system.
Because of that, there's so manythings that she did that have
(37:26):
been forgotten, and sadly, theaverage person on the street is
more likely to.
And know her for the urban myththat she died having sex on a
horse.
So while the myths may linger,remember this, Catherine the
greats was a force of intellectand will she seized her power.
(37:48):
She understood what she needed,she.
Absolutely modernized nation atthat time and engaged with the
greatest minds that she couldfind.
Her true legacy lies not insensational stories, but in her
profound and lastingtransformation of Russia.
Well, thank you so much, much.
(38:09):
I was one of the ignorant,benighted people who only knew,
knew you, the fleas.
Yeah.
Isn't it just typical that a wayto undermine a woman of
accomplishment and power.
Is to say something s muddyabout her, you know?
(38:29):
Yeah.
Agree.
That like slut shaming.
Despite the fact that she waschanging things and we all hate
change, She was still in powerfor three decades in a time of
constant turmoil and uprising.
Yeah, that speaks volumes'causeclearly from what happened to
her little Peter.
They would depose a bitch ifthey did not.
(38:51):
Like, if the people did not likeit, that person's gone.
So, clearly despite doing thingsthat people would've found
uncomfortable, she wasbenefiting the nation.
Yeah.
No, I like her.
And an amazing crown.
Yeah.
What's not to love?
On top of everything else, superdu.
audio2663295054 (39:18):
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