June 10, 2025 • 43 mins
Exploring African History with Luke Pepera
In this episode, Cara and Vicky welcome guest Luke Pepera, a Ghanaian-born, Oxford-educated historian and author of African History book 'Motherland.' Luke discusses his journey into African history and mythology, African American history, sharing insights about influential female figures and the rich oral traditions of the continent. The conversation highlights African queens like Injinga Mbande and Amanirenas, significant for their leadership and warrior roles. Luke also touches on his passion for storytelling, and how his work aims to broaden perspectives on African culture and history. The episode concludes with information on Luke's book and where to purchase it.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/motherland/luke-pepera/9781398707368
00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:43 Welcoming the First Guest: Luke Peper
00:59 Diving into African History
06:35 Luke's Journey into African History
10:52 From Blogging to Publishing: The Making of 'Motherland'
13:32 The Evolution of Storytelling and African Folklore
18:45 Anansi: The Trickster's Journey Across Cultures
22:40 The Role of Oral Storytelling in African Cultures
27:02 Warrior Queens of Africa: Stories of Resilience and Power
34:14 The Influence of African Female Figures in History
42:00 Conclusion and Book Synopsis
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1473636161 (00:08):
Kara is American, you see?
So you've, yes.
The exclusive time that I'll behappy to speak for my country at
the moment.
You don't, as an American, youdon't wanna do that, but yeah,
like, congratulations.
That's really, really cool.
Very cool.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So yeah, so looking forward to,yeah.
Getting stuck into it.
Hi Cara.
(00:28):
Hi Vicki.
Hi.
How are you?
I'm well, thank you.
How are you doing today?
I'm very excited today'cause um,I, I get to speak to you most
weeks, which is wonderful.
But today don't play that down.
That's Come on.
That's true.
Sorry.
Uh, but today we have thewonderful loop of para with us.
We've got our first guest on thesheet.
Yay.
(00:48):
Podcast.
Oh, I might, oh gosh.
Wow.
I'm honored.
Good pressure.
Thank you.
No, no.
Honestly, it's a, it's aprivilege.
Brilliant.
Really to be here.
No, thank you for being here.
And we're gonna chat about allthe things.
African history today.
We've kind of, what have wedone?
We've kind of skirted on Africanhistory a little bit, but we
can't wait to dive in, so I'vegot a little introduction for
(01:09):
us, if that's okay.
We are incredibly excited towelcome Luke Peper, a Ghanaian
born Oxford educated historian.
Luke is truly revolutionizinghow we engage with African
history.
As an insightful author ofMotherland, moving us beyond
common narratives to uncover therich.
Diverse and often surprisingstories of the continent's past.
(01:32):
Prepare to have your perspectivebroadened and your understanding
enriched.
Welcome, Luke.
Thank you.
Really kind introduction.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank so we actually crossedpaths, didn't we?
The way our past across aGloucester history which I think
Karara was the main source of Ithink you introduced me to it,
(01:55):
Karara.
I've, I've wanted to go for afew years.
This is the first year I'veactually made it.
And Luke, your talk was thestandout thing that I thought.
This is, this is the thing we'regonna plan our day around.
So yeah, we were so excited to,to hear you and to learn some
more.
Yeah, thank you.
No, yes, exactly.
It was Gloucester and um, um,you know, it was a real pleasure
to meet you guys.
(02:17):
also had some really lovelyphotos as well, which I asked if
I could, if I could like repos.
'cause they were like reallynice and, yeah.
Organized me to come onto your,um, yeah, onto podcast.
Um, you know, focusing on, onwomen history.
And that is, um, you know,that's, that's a topic that,
definitely fits very neatlyinto, into African history and
(02:37):
African culture as well.
Um,'cause it's full of, um, welljust, well, first extraordinary
female figures, but actuallyit's a, there's a particular
historical and cultural.
Attitude in many Africansocieties, um, towards women,
which, um, people, are a littlebit more familiar, um, with
let's say, you know, Westernhistory you know, might not know
(02:58):
about, and, um, something that'squite novel.
Nice.
Um, did you get any otherphotos?
Was it just my dodgy Instagram?
No, there, uh, the night, so Igot, uh, I think, I don't know.
I mean, I think maybe there was,um, one, one other person who
took like, some of me on stage.
So I got some really nice photosof people kind of afterwards and
(03:19):
around.
But um, on, you know, on on, onstage itself, they were kind of
few and far between and I didn'treally have the foresight to
kind of had somewhere phone.
It'd be all like a, you know, Iwould've tried a lot harder if I
knew No, no, it was honestly, itwas great.
We were all, we were spellbound.
Nobody was whipping their phoneout.
You should take that as amassive confidence.
It was.
I do take that as a, I do takethat as a huge compliment,
(03:40):
honestly.
And, um, and it's so kind of,you say that, um, you know, you,
that you, you enjoyed talk somuch and that was the one that
you were kind of looking forwardto as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's really, that's pretty,um, well attended I thought as
well.
There was a lot of people there.
Yes.
Yes.
And there was, yeah.
So, um, yeah, no nerves at alltalking to that, uh, a house
that was slightly fuller than,than that I had kind of
(04:02):
envisaged.
But, uh, you know, as, as, askind of a debut.
And, and, and it's funnyactually'cause I.
You know, um, I'm sort of stillworking out how to do kind of
talks.
I would say that I'm probablybetter naturally in, in
conversation and when I can kindof bounce off, uh, you know,
what, uh, an interviewer andwhat the interviewer is saying
and the points they pick up on.
And it really helped spark like,fresh insights to me.
(04:25):
And this was one of the, a fewtalks, I think even I
potentially even the first onewhere I was actually just, you
know, it was on my own notespresenting to an audience and
I'd actually kind of writtensomething and it was half
scripted, half bullet points.
'cause I couldn't really decidewhat to do.
I think sometimes if it's, um,too scripted, you, you're not
engaging with the audienceenough.
But you know, the, the troublewith things, something that's
(04:45):
too bullet pointed you can swearaway from main points.
Um, so actually I did somethingin between and there was a
script, actually a bit of ascript that I wanted to follow.
And, um, about half, abouthalfway through I realized
that's something I planned tosay later I'd already said.
So that kind of like threw meoff like a little bit, but I was
just like, you know, I was kindof at the flow anyway.
(05:05):
And I know I kind of break itdown into stories and I know
which stories people, people areinterested in and, and kind of
like as well, and, and that arekind of, you know, in, they're
interesting in of itself, butthey're also crowd pleasers.
So, um, I think you're giving,um, Kara a heart attack.
We, we approach our podcast verydifferently and Kara is a script
lady, aren't you?
You're, yes.
I don't, I don't wanna engagewith human beings.
(05:27):
I just wanna read from a pageand then go, go about my
business.
Vicky's approach is so much simsimilar to yours though, the,
you know, little blocks of mainpoints, couple of bullets, and.
Interestingly from the outside,'cause we're in the audience
here on the stage and havingthat experience, I had no idea.
I had no idea that things hadgone a little, well, I should, I
(05:50):
should have kept it a secretthere.
There we go.
But no things, and you know, Ithink I realized that that was
maybe actually just the naturalflow and you know, the way I was
doing it in the script wasprobably not as natural.
So actually when I went withthat, I said, actually this
feels, this feels natural.
So lemme go with that.
Which is why hopefully it didn'tcome across as too, but then
that means you guys complimenteach other.
'cause then you kind of allhave, you know, I think has the
(06:12):
sort of bullet points and it's alittle more, you know, flow a
little bit more loosely and thenKara the script.
It's actually, it's actually,it's actually a great balance to
have.
So, um, yeah, yeah, definitely.
But, uh, yeah, but it was, yeah,we cover all bases I think.
Yeah, exactly.
But I would know it was funbeing there and getting to talk
to, you know, about Africanhistory too, um, to, to such an
engaged audience with, you know.
(06:32):
Awesome members like yourself,and then to meet people
afterwards.
So, well, tell us more, tell usmore about your, for the
listeners, your backgroundmm-hmm.
What, how you got into thisAfrican history,'Cause this is
your, this is your career now.
This is your job.
So how, how on earth did thathappen?
'cause it's very exciting.
Yes.
So, um, I, um, I was.
(06:53):
Born in Ghana, um, and, andraised in Ghana, um, before
coming to the UK at an earlyage.
And then, you know, all the wayup to, um, university.
And I'd always been interestedin, um, sort of history,
mythology, culture, um, andalso, uh, storytelling more
generally, I'd say right storywriting, but storytelling more.
Um, and initially that was uh,Greek myths and, uh, Roman myths
(07:16):
and legends, um, is what I'dbeen attracted to.
And, um, as I was, uh, you know,ending, at school and working
out what I what I, wanted to do,especially for university, et
cetera.
But it was actually.
At the end of the school, we hadto do, uh, like a personal um,
which, um, you know, counttowards our final grades.
(07:36):
But the subject, we were quiteopen in what we could do it
about.
And I decided to do mine about,um, uh, an element of Ghanaian,
of of, of Ghanaian Africanhistory.
Actually no one really, um, hasexplored any African history.
Um, so, um, you know, as you'regoing, you could have scope to
do that.
Um, so I thought actually, yeah,that, you know, I don't even
know a lot about that, thathistory in particular, but then
also the history of my, um, youknow, a lot of, you know, you, a
(07:59):
lot of my own heritage, thedeeper history of, of, of the
ethnic groups.
Um, like, um, the Ghanaian ethicgroup, the shanty or the who
kind of form my background andmy heritage.
Um, so I, I decided actuallythat, yeah, that might be quite
interesting to explore.
So I actually wanted to do aproject on, uh, the history of
the.
Uh, of the, one of the ethnicgroups, um, that I belong to in
Ghana.
(08:19):
Um, and my first point of callwas the, national Museum of
Ghana, where I thought I'd findsome more general information.
I.
Um, and when I went, I foundthat there wasn't really much,
much there apart informationartifacts relating to
trans-Atlantic slavery andcolonialism.
And, but I knew that there was alot more to African history than
(08:41):
this.
'cause I just sort ofencountered it, you know, always
going back or traveling back toGhana.
You know, you see a lot of thecultural value, the sort of
masks and drums and songs and,um, you know, stories.
It's, it's kind of all there.
So, you know that there was, youknow, there is a deeper ha uh,
deeper past.
There is a deeper culture, butit wasn't really being brought
out in any conscious orintellectual way.
And, and the museum was kind ofrepresentative of that.
(09:02):
Um, but, um, there was actuallyan element where, where it sort
of was, and that was at, um, theuniversity.
So, um, you know, my secondpoint of call is that I, I
managed to get in touch with acouple of.
Professors at the University ofGhana, and one of them, for
instance, showed me this museumat the back of the, um, of the
archeology department, um, whichhoused, uh, Ghanaian artifacts
dating to, uh, 500 ad.
And they were, um, they wereiron working artifacts, so used
(09:24):
to, uh, make iron implements andalso uh, the instruments or the
implements themselves.
Um, and that, you know, all the,the information that I got from
these professors and some of theresources they recommended me,
et cetera, allowed me to kind ofcomplete my, um.
to, to complete my project.
Um, but I'd kind of become, um,you know, I kind of got an
introduction, um, to lead the,you know, to to that history
(09:46):
and, and to that archeology.
And that was just for one groupof people or even in just one
country.
So I was exci, you know, I waskeen to know if, you know what,
what else lay beyond, um, evenjust gone, I mean more in Ghana,
but then, you know, I knew thatI'd be able to discover more in
Ghana, but also what laid beyondthat too.
Um, so that prompted me thenwhen,'cause this was at, you
know, end of school year.
So that prompted me want tostudy.
(10:07):
Or, you know, it was end of myschool time.
So that prompted me to want tostudy um, at, um, at university
because I thought that would be,um, one way to, um, interrogate,
interrogate this past.
And there I did a module on theformation of Sub-Saharan States,
existed between the 11thcenturies in Zimbabwe.
And they built this massivestone city of concentric circles
(10:30):
and were trading, you know, hadtrade links with, um, the
Indians and the Chinese, andthen also the East Africans
coast.
And, uh, the empires of Garsaand Mali between the ninth and
16th, 17th centuries.
And their trade across theSahara and the Met.
There was just so muchinformation Yeah.
Um, there to, to, to dig myteeth, dig my teeth, teeth into,
(10:51):
um.
After I graduated, there wassort of this Venn diagram
existing sort of in, in my mind,art, uh, of Africa, history and
storytelling.
Yeah.
All kind of, you know, sort of,I, I wanted to do something at
the confluence of that connectedthese things together.
When I left university, Istarted, um, writing, but
(11:13):
actually I was writing, um, sortof fiction stories initially, so
that was kind of thestorytelling side, but that were
allowing me to kind of, um,develop my creativity, Um, and
then that, and then that kind oftransitioned into doing some
about, you know, doing, doingsome stories, um, including sort
of a young adult novel, whichwas a.
a novelization of this guardianmyth.
(11:33):
So that was kind of where theAfrica writing storytelling
came, uh, came into being.
Um, and then this is verycreative.
Yeah, well, I was just trying atthe time, I was just trying
different things, but then thatlater on developed into a blog
about, um, African history andculture.
So those were kind of nonfictionyou know, it's just think pieces
about different elements ofAfrican history and culture that
came to mind.
And actually a lot of those blogpieces found, formed the
(11:55):
foundation of the, of thechapters in Motherland.
I later realized, I went backand looked at some of them not
too long ago So I did one on, Idid a, a, a blog piece on, uh,
the Veneration of Ancestors, andthen that kind of that, that's a
chapter I also, I do inMotherland So I was, I was doing
this blog, um, maintaining itand trying to kind of engage.
People, you know, find a way tokind of break into, um, like I
(12:17):
said, telling stories aboutAfrica, And wasn't, wasn't
actually getting much tractionto be perfectly honest.
During lockdown, actually inlockdown.
was 2020.
And it was also just after theGeorge Floyd, uh, you know, the,
the George Floyd incident andall the protests, et cetera.
Kate Williams had basicallyposted on Twitter saying, anyone
of.
African Sense who's interestedin getting into history, being a
(12:39):
historian, she messaged me and Iwas familiar with her and
familiar with her work.
I've watched her on TV inparticular.
So I just got in touch with her,basically asking for advice.
I said, I've written this blog.
Her advice was that if you, youknow, when I wrote to her, she
said, uh, you know, your stuffon the blog is interesting.
It's pretty interesting.
Um, if you want to do tv, thebest thing to do initially would
(12:59):
do a, book.
Um, and then you can go fromthere basically.
And so this is just one piece,Midland is one piece with this
mother was Exactly.
Well, it was, but it was just,you know, how do I put it?
I think it's, you know, I'vetried to kind of, um, tell the
story in, in as broad strokes asI can so that it's not too, um,
you know, it, it doesn't becometoo boring or over detailed I
(13:19):
say sometimes people thatmotherland as whether nonfiction
history is one of the lastthings I kind of kept I, I'd,
I'd kind of come to,'cause I'd,um, I'd, I'd, you know, I tried
everything else.
I'd even done a, I'd even donea, um.
So just before I was in touchwith Kate Williams and just
after I tried with the novelsand, and you know, I'd done the
short stories, the novels andthe blogs, I'd, um, done this
(13:40):
part-time filmmaking course andit met film school in Ling and
it was basically just a, it wasa part-time course and at the
end of it you basically madelike a short film.
And again, that film exploredelements of African culture and
heritage, including the Africaor Ghanaian Folklore Hero, um,
and Ansy, who's sort of our godof mythology and storytelling.
And he was also the maincharacter of, of the novel.
(14:00):
So again, that was.
The confluence of writing Africaand storytelling, all these
things that had kind of existedin me for a little bit.
And I was just trying to get astructure and find out how to
really, and just how to make itwork in reality as it were.
After I'd got in touch with,Kate and showed her my stuff and
she gave me that advice and shewas the one who me to, um, the
people who could actually make,my plans or my, my, dreams and
(14:24):
my ambitions are a reality.
So, for instance, she you know,to an agent.
And, and it was, you know, withthem I was able, I worked on the
proposal for what is nowmotherland, basically.
Wow.
So we just had discussions, to,to, to flesh out the idea.
And then that was what.
an editor was kind ofinterested.
Oh, from a tweet.
Oh, from a tweet, isn't that, orfrom a tweet.
Yeah.
(14:44):
Or from a tweet.
But I think, you know, alsowanna say is that yes for, you
know, from the Twitter, but youknow, again, I'd got in touch
with so many people, likefriends.
I tried, anyone who I'd metfriends.
I'll say, if you, anybody youknown in sort of documentaries
or in, films, I mean, even inbetween as well, I'd done some
like, you know, uh, uh, tutoringjust to kind of, you know, just
to kind of keep active.
Um, but, you know, trying to,but then I get in touch with,
(15:05):
like I said, producers, um,people who worked in journalism,
um, academics.
Just trying to find, you know,what, creative industries are so
hard to navigate, aren't they?
They're so difficult to findyour place and what's keeping
authentic as well.
Yes, exactly.
Through to what you wanna sayand what you wanna do.
Exactly.
And I think it's, you know, it'sbasically because you are left.
(15:27):
For the most part to kind ofwork it out for your, for
yourself.
You know, it's, there's no,there's no structure so much,
you know, there's no graduatescheme as it were on becoming
populist but it's just, I think,really important just to, to, I
think having a body of material,like I, I, at least what I think
what worked for me was having abody of material, IE the blog
and then, um, and then, uh, justtrying to get in touch with as
(15:49):
many people as possible.
Um, and oh, this started as ablog.
This, right.
Okay.
Was a blog like.
It's had many iterations, Iguess.
Actually some of the episodeshave pulled directly from the
blog much like you did because,you know, I know the stories are
exciting.
I know that they've got the wowfactors and the moments that
make people remember the storiesand, you know, and it saves
(16:11):
times to say, I've done all thisresearch already, I think as, as
well, you're, what I'm noticingabout both of you is that you
have a real clarity about whatyou're interested in and wanting
to share that.
You can afford then to beflexible about the how, like
you're gonna attack it.
You're gonna try every way thatyou can, because what you are
really interested in is thatstory and sharing it how it gets
(16:35):
to people.
That's fine.
Whatever works.
That's really practical and verycool to just, you know, keep
trying.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
I think industries move on alittle bit, don't they?
Because, well, I say that booksare stood the test of time,
haven't they?
'cause there was that periodwhere it was like, was it eBooks
or Kindles were like out doinglike.
(16:56):
Paper books.
And now it seems to have flippedout the other way, but like
podcasting is still quite in itsinfancy, I think, isn't it?
And yeah, podcasting and audiofor sure.
And I think audio books as well,you know, will become probably
the next thing that people kindof engage with and enjoy.
And kind of what, with Kara saidis that, you know, if you have
a.
(17:16):
if you know what you wanna shareand you just have a passion of
sharing something, I think youjust, you just do that in, in
whatever format and then youfind the one that kind of works
for you.
I think I've tried probably, andoften I will, I will do
something just to try it.
Um, you for the most part, youknow, if the odd scene kind of
presents itself, um, and workingout if it kind of fits for me.
'cause I think the thing thatyou're more likely, you know,
you are more likely to succeedis the thing you're more likely
(17:38):
to do more of.
And the thing you're more likelyto do more of is the thing that
you enjoy.
So I really like, writing and,and books for example.
But as Kara said, it's all to dowith just sharing, um, you know,
sharing.
For me it's about sharingstories and knowledge and
information about the deeperAfrican past African history and
culture.
That's kind of the foundation.
I loved you mentioning Anandebecause we had a librarian when
(18:03):
I was a very young girl whobrought those stories to us, and
that was like the best part ofschool.
She would sit us all down and,and read these tales.
And, um, your enjoyment and loveof it just comes through, you
know, like it, I, I wonder, thisbeing.
She changed history.
I, I won't kind of crack onabout Anan Saver too awful long,
(18:27):
but I wonder if there are otherfigures from folklore who sort
of resonated with you in thatway and bonus points if they are
female.
'cause Well, it's interestingyou mentioned the female'cause
actually in the American South,and Nancy himself was
transformed into a femalefigure, um, auntie Nancy.
Ah, um, so he actually kind oftrans, so he, he becomes,'cause
(18:49):
what he is in Ghana and actuallyin Jamaica and then obviously in
the American South, is that evenin these societies that
obviously are kind of culturallyhistorically related, but um,
have had, you know, the peoplewho live within them have
obviously had different,different experiences.
Um, and, and the Africans andespecially the AAN that the
larger group of people who livedin the regional territory of
(19:11):
what's now Ghana and who were,one of the primary groups who
were, um, sort of enslaved intraffic to the Caribbean and
then also to the American South.
But in all of them and Nancyfunctions as a figure of, um,
of, of freedom actually.
So in.
In traditional account society,um, in West Africa, it's a
society that's seen as beingquite, um, quite restrictive and
(19:32):
quite hierarchical.
It's quite like rule-based and,you know, there are different,
codes of conduct and behaviorand respect that you have to
accord to different people andin the stories.
And an is this chaotic figurewho breaks all the rules and
does what he wants.
And part of the reason for thatis actually provides a, a almost
a catharsis for people who feelfrustrated with having to follow
all the rules in, in society.
(19:53):
So that's one of the reason totell the story.
And then in Jamaica, he acted asthis, um.
Uh, as this disruptive figure.
And so he's like the un I mean,even in, in a can, he's the
underdog.
But in Jamaica, he's kind ofthis underdog figure who is
outsmarting all these figureswho are much more powerful than
him.
And, and, and through thatgaining his freedom, which is
what the enslaved, um, a can inJamaica were, were inspired to
do, you know, with theirmasters.
(20:13):
So it was, he was basically afigure of rebellion.
He was this, you know, thisfigure of rebellion and, and
resilience in difficult times.
And it was kind of a similarthing in, in, in the American
South.
But then also, like I said, hetransforms con female'cause he
takes on a much more, maybe Iwould say like arguably
traditionally maternal, aspectand instinct, and he's about
looking out for his people andmaking sure that they're, that
they're, um, comfortable um, andyou know, again, there's that
(20:36):
influence and importance of, ofthe female figure in African
American culture.
Um, as, uh, you know, The, themothers of figure and so seen as
foundational support, in thecommunity.
And I think that has somethingto do with, an Nancy's
transition.
I mean, in Ghana as well.
There's a figure.
I mean, it's, she's sort of theopposite.
It's quite funny, but there's afolk girl figure called, um,
(20:59):
mommy Water, um, who I think hasalso made, I don't know, um.
Uh, she's not as international.
I mean, and Nancy is quiteextraordinary because he has
this international, like youmentioned, uh, people telling,
you know, sort of tellingstories about him when you were
young.
I mean, he is, he's, he'sachieved this kind of,
international and even to anextent, pop culture recognition.
You know, he exists in novels.
He's in Neil Gamer novels andhe's in comic books and he's in,
(21:21):
you know, he's in loads ofdifferent media.
I don't think mommy water, thissame figure has kind of had, but
she's basically almost like awater spirit, uh, who tempts,
misbehaving men to their doomessentially.
So she's, that could beobviously, if I remember
correctly, we, we love adangerous woman.
That's, that's right.
F it's, it's kind of, the men,who are kind of, uh, you know,
(21:41):
they're, they're adulterers ormy wife beats us, that kind of
thing.
She's, she's almost like thatfigure of like retribution,
towards him.
Okay.
Um, and, that's kind of theinfluencer position she holds in
traditional account society andjust, and this quite, like a
feared but also spiritualfigure.
And obviously she's connectedwith, um, this powerful, um, but
also pure spiritual force, whichis water obviously, you know,
(22:01):
she said to reside in waterformations.
Um, and laws, these people whoare prone to, um, misbehaving
Brandon also mistreated women toa certain kind of Yeah.
Certain kind of doom.
Um, uh, yes, acts is nothing.
So there's, there's sort of ananti transition and there's this
one figure who's also quite wellknown in the a can context.
(22:24):
Isn't it interesting thatthere's probably so many things
like that in our society thathave African heritage and of
source from Africa, um, that youwouldn't necessarily, because
there's something isn't rap fromGhana and as well.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Well I think it's very organizedspecifically, but I think rap
(22:44):
and then especially, rapbattles, the United States
states share a lot of elementsand features that can be traced
back to Africa.
Oral storytelling, the oralform, word games, riddling
games, just oral literature isjust, is so incredibly developed
in Africa.
I mean, we as a, you know, we asa, we as a, we as a species
generally, you know, human beingsort of storytelling and oral
storytelling as a border.
(23:05):
But in Africa, that traditionhas been maintained.
So in so many African cultures,you have hereditary
storytellers, whether it's theOchi army in, in Ghana, or or
the Grios just above Ghana, sortof what's, what's subscribed as
the, uh, as the Sahel, which isthe western part of Sudan, ary
storytellers and it's just,they're a, they're a group of
people, a cast, a cast insociety whose job it is to,
(23:29):
Remember, or record, remember,and pass down, the history.
And so, um, in African culturesespecially just, um, orally,
lyrically are very wellpracticed.
And a lot of that, for lack of abetter word, talent, but a lot
of that history and a lot ofthat heritage, um, found its way
obviously to, um mm-hmm.
You know, to, to the UnitedStates via, the Africans who,
(23:51):
who existed in that societyearly on and I do wanna stress
that, rap is, very much anAfrican American form.
Like, it's, it's not, it, Ithink it, it has one can argue
definitely for its roots beingan African eye.
And I, and I do think, and couldput evidence, forward for its
roots being there, but itcouldn't have as it is now as
Wrap is now.
And, and as it developed, itcouldn't have developed probably
(24:12):
anywhere else than in thatcontext, Of America and of, and,
of the Africans in America too.
Yeah.
I was thinking how oraltraditions they must bring such
a sense of belonging because youreferenced it there as a role.
It was a role for people to doand gosh, the.
That is, that is a veryimportant job, isn't it?
Yes, yes, yes.
(24:33):
And, uh, you know, exactly.
I mean, this even ties into theAfrican, the entire African
conception of history itself, isthat,, what is recorded and
remembered is, what's importantfor ensuring, maintaining, and
ensuring social and culturalcohesion.
It's about getting people tounderstand who they are, why
they are, and why it's importantthat they understand who they
are and why they are.
(24:53):
And that's also doing with, withfostering.
So, uh, you would notice a lotof the traditional, you know, in
the narratives of a lot of thetraditional storytellers, the
people's whose job it is to, isto record.
Yes.
And, you know, and in, you know,I mentioned those West African
storytellers, the Greers, in,the Saha, et cetera.
What's interesting with'emparticularly is that, you know,
that role was not a role thatwas restricted to, to men.
(25:16):
You had, female, GREs as well,but then they were actually, I
mean, the GREs generally, bothmen and women were more than
just storytellers or historians.
They also performed other rolesin society.
So, for example,, in certaincultures in part of Africa, the
female, GREs, would help to, forexample, attend a bride during
her wedding day, for instance,as well as remembering the
(25:38):
history.
There was, there was actuallycomplete, Equality Greers.
And actually even in Senegal inthe 20th century, there were
these, um, and I, me, Imentioned them briefly actually
in But there's a group of womencalled, um, uh, que, which
means, uh, like women living inopulence and elegance, and
they're essentially wealthy.
(26:01):
I mean, they're essentiallywealthy.
They're independently wealthy,well respected women, and they
sort of travel around, you know,they're usually like, um, you
know, they're usually involvedin some kind of, um, business or
commerce, and they travel aroundwith these massive entourages,
including female greers and oneof their jobs.
And this is a job for allGreers, but in this particular
context, or this is a job allGreers do, but in this
particular context, um, thefemale growers who travel with
(26:24):
them and, you know, they're,they're kind of, um, patronized
by them.
So, you know, the, the durian,the, the, rich women will kind
of pay them for these services,but one of the things they do is
they go around singing what'scalled pray songs in honor of
these women saying, uh, youknow, you're so wonderful and
you're so right and yourancestors, uh, wow, you know,
are phenomenal.
And, and, and it, and it's, andit all, it all goes to raising
(26:45):
the woman's prestige such thatwhen she, um, is in, you know,
let's say a group with,potential contacts or business
contact, she's seen as, as, asbeing a person with whom they
would certainly want to do, wantto do business.
Um, nice sort of.
Please.
Sounds great.
Um, so I could listen to youtalk all day.
(27:06):
It's ridiculous, do you have anywomen from either the research
in your book or, from your, vastamount of knowledge, in African
history that, we think peopleshould know about more?
I mean, yes, certainly.
Off the top of my head I kind ofhave, um, two or three who kind
of really impressed me.
One is top three.
The top three.
One is the, one is the, 17thCentury Queen of, uh, the
(27:30):
Kingdom of Ingo, um, in Dongoexisted in what's now Northern
Angola.
And her name is, inj and Bande.
And she's particularlyphenomenal because she was the
first queen of her kingdom.
I mean, in, in, in first Queenof Ingo, uh, in, in Dongo, women
had always been, important and,and, and respected.
They'd always taken part in, um.
(27:51):
Uh, affairs, political affairsand, economic affairs and
current affairs, they had alwaysbeen, um, relatively
independent, in the sense that,they weren't, that they didn't
need to marry, for example, toto ensure that they could live
or they were looked after.
They could divorce, uh, forwhatever reason they wished, um,
they weren't viewed as propertyin any way.
(28:12):
Um, but there had not yet beenby the 17th century, a female
king whose people sort ofremembered.
I mean, maybe in, in, in INGO'sdistant past there had been, um,
female founders so, um, Injingais the first.
Um, but she is, um, wellremembered in Angola today
basically for almost singlehandedly ensuring the
maintenance of the sovereigntyof her kingdom in the face of
(28:35):
increasing Portuguese, um,expansion, especially in West
central Africa.
Like I said, active in, in sortof uh, late 16th to the mid 17th
century.
And she fights against thePortuguese for about, you know,
for, for close to 50 years.
But she's,, often on thebattlefield herself, directly
engaged in the conflict, againstthem.
(28:57):
So she's absolutely phenomenal.
We find this with a lot of ourwomen, you know, don't we Kara,
they're always on thebattlefield.
They're always hands on.
Yep.
Yeah.
They're so hands not afraid toget hands-on.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
That's why she just perfectlyfits the description of a
Warrior Queen.
And I find that a lot of thesefigures, female, historical
female figures were exactlythat.
I mean, they were.
(29:18):
Queens in the sense that theywere the highest authority in
their kingdom and they governedtheir kingdom and they did all
the kind the day-to-day runningof the kingdom as it were, the
day-to-day governance.
But, um, they revolved in allaspects, including warfare.
And when there were, in themidst of the fray, often a lot
more than, some kings were inmost instances actually.
So the, so I would say in j morethan the second.
(29:39):
And these are, uh, you know, inJingga write about in land.
The second is Armani Rees, uh,about whom we don't know.
Her name is Armani Rees, aboutwhom we don't have as much,
information, but she lived, um,around the turn of the
millennium.
So say, you know, 2020 BC toaround 10 80.
So around that time,, in Nubia,which is essentially what's now
(30:02):
Northern Sudan and SouthernEgypt.
And she was one of Group offemale figures that are
collectively called ba, uh,collectively known as the kanke
these were basically, queenmothers in Kush who at one point
in the Kingdom independently.
Yeah.
So in Kush, oh, sorry.
(30:22):
Uh, Kush is just for a, anotherword for we did an episode on.
Yeah, now you go.
So then your listeners willcome.
Yeah.
We know a little bit, and thenyour listeners already be, um,
ready, be familiar, So the Nubiawas sort of the, the country in,
in the location that Idescribed, Northern Sudan,
Southern Egypt.
And in that country the Nubianshad three kingdoms, so there was
karma which existed from which,um, I mean it is as old as 5,000
(30:44):
bc It's crazy, crazy, isn't it?
The timeframes insane.
5,000 BC to I think, actually, Ithink to around 15, 1500 BC.
Correct.
And then there was Napita, um,which was around 800 bcs, around
300 bc.
And then there was, because thatsort of the in between part is
when the Egyptians kind of Yeah,the Egyptians sort of took, uh,
(31:07):
invaded and conquered, um, Um,and then, yes, Napita, then me,
BC to Um, during, the Napanperiod, so from about 800 BC I
mean, and since Karma, women hadalways been important, but in,
(31:28):
in karma, they'd have more likereligious roles, socio religious
roles.
So they were importantpriestesses, the administration.
And they performed rituals thathelped,, deepen the king's
relationship with the godsessentially.
Um, and then in 800 BC theirimportance increase so that the
founder of the, uh, nap anddynasty, a nubbin King, called
Lara, basically made it so that,Pite kingship became elective.
(31:50):
So before that, it was,probably, for the most part,
primogenitor, so at least one ofthe sons of the former king
would inherit, but, RA made itso that, um, there would be an
election held between, sons of,uh, also his sons.
But then also the sons of hissisters as well.
So his nephews and the generalsand the important officials in
(32:12):
Kush, would basically, theywould basically, uh, converse
and, and argue amongstthemselves as to who and they
would elect them.
And what happened is that whenthe king was elected and their
mother took on the position of,uh, the queen mother and the
queen mother was, was, wasarguably in Kush.
I mean, she had a reallyimportant role in deciding who
(32:32):
the next would be.
So the king, so the queen,mother of the king who just died
basically would have animportant role in deciding who
the next elect would be amongstthat dead king's, uh, children
or his nephews, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
And then when.
The EE was chosen, that person'smother would become the new
queen mother.
And when the kings, oh gosh.
Oh yeah.
Would so change.
(32:53):
So before the ee could beofficially confirmed as the new
King of Kush, you would have totravel around all the important
cities in Nubia, and, um, ateach, temple, in the cities, he
would basically have toconfirmed in his role by, by the
God moon.
And this took part, um, youknow, this happened as part of a
special ceremony, but one of thereally important parts of that
(33:14):
ceremony is that his mother, thequeen mother, would have to come
and basically give a speechasking Aman to consecrate her
son, such that he could rulerule Nubia and.
If that ritual that was done bythe queen mother wasn't
completed, then the king was notallowed to rule.
So she was, she was directlyusing control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was directly part of thatprocess of making, of making him
(33:37):
the next queen.
And part of the reason for thatis that Egyptians and Nubian
shared a lot of their religion,a lot of their cosmology with
each other, but in Nubia, theGodde ISIS was important and,
obviously her son Horace wasimportant.
In the physical world where thenew newborns actually lived,
they saw the queen mother asisis, not even, as a
representative, they sawliterary as Isis and they saw
(33:57):
the sun literaries liter asHorace.
And as part of the stories isIsis she kind of, you know, she
raises him, to take over hisking.
And that was kind of beingparalleled in the Nubian world,
was that the queen mother wasraising her son to be an
effective ruler.
So in that case, she wasphenomenally, phenomenally
important.
And this, I think this isimportant to mention'cause this
is the foundation on which, um,that queen I mentioned the
(34:19):
start, Armani Re and the Kandancase in general, uh, those kind
of female autocratic, rulers ofKush came into being, is that,
you know, supporter realizedthat female importance and,
power was baked into, Nubiansociety mostly it's the queen
mother and her son, butsometimes it's actually, the,
wife, or the king and the queen,you know, husband.
(34:40):
And this was the case with,Armani Renus, you know, she kind
of rules her husband is uh,Tarica.
And she rules mostly alongsidehim, So for instance, when the
Romans, invade or invade andconquer Egypt, and they have
this plan to conquer bothWestern Asia and Nuba at the
same time.
They want to you is they make,incursions into, then the
(35:02):
Northern Nubians rebel, um, amovement and then the Romans
kind of come back at them.
But actually when the Nubiansrebel, uh.
Tarka and Armani Rena supportthe rebellion.
Um, so they directly engaged inthe conflict against them.
And then when the Romans kind ofpush back, Amanirenas actually,
takes over and she's describedGreek historian Strayer, is
(35:24):
being this kind of fearsomeone-eyed warrior queen.
It's just terrifying.
You know, it was almost likethis kind of, you know, the
Amazon of legend.
Yeah, and actually there, yeah,there are a steel line relief
where the queen is representedas being, bigger and larger,
more powerful than, or, youknow, the, the kan than, than
her husband, king.
And she's often depicted with,um, these traditional Egyptian
(35:47):
motifs, denoting power andconquest and control.
So one of the favorite ones is,um, sort of sing smiting enemies
as like a very famous motif ofthe Egyptians to show kind of
dominance and power.
And you see Kanke, um, uh, whoare, uh, presented in this way.
They're actually presentingthemselves as both feminine and
powerful.
(36:07):
Yeah.
Um, in that African context.
And there's no contradictionbetween the, between the two.
Amanirenas, you know, she's wellknown for basically having.
Similar to Injinga havinginstalled the Roman advance and
prevented the Roman, um,incursion into Nubia.
She battles against, the Romansfor fears.
And actually at a point, it'salmost like war of attrition and
(36:29):
they basically feel that it'snot, pursuing this any further.
So they actually sue for peaceand Amanirenas organizes for
ambassadors to.
negotiate directly, with,Octavian, they're now known as
Augustus.
Augustus on the island of Samoswhere he's on holiday and she
actually doesn't end up goingherself.
She just says, I'll leave it upto my ambassadors.
Um, and the Romans agree, forexample, when conquered Northern
(36:52):
Kush state and post taxes, forexample, and they agreed to push
back, and then they're givenonly a sliver, of that Northern
territory, which has agreed toact as a buffer zone between
them and the Nubians.
But then they agreed to removethe taxes.
And they also, agreed torecognize Nubian sovereignty.
Um, and, the Greek historianShaer basically concludes that
(37:13):
Nubians from, the Romans, theyhad just so successfully, uh,
stor stored their advance andmade it difficult to.
Go further into Africa as wells.
Fascinating, my gosh.
And then the third, the third isone, um, about whom I, I have
(37:35):
written in, in my book, but, youknow, know a few details.
Know a few de details about,because she's, um, you know,
she's a can, she's a shanty, youknow, I'm a shanty.
Might as well as being a queer,I'm a shanty myself.
And, um, her name is Ya andshe's, um, she's a lot later.
A lot.
It is gonna have a spam.
We have like the ancient rain,early modern, which is Inga.
And then, um, sort of modern,which is, What is Shanti Ya?
(37:58):
So Ashanti, that's a Exactlywhat, but Ashanti is just the
name of the people who, okay.
Um, yeah, it's the name of thepe it's the name of the people
basically who, um, inhabitwhat's now, what's now Ghana.
'Cause you know, ya San um, is,best known for fighting at the,
at the turn of the century, theturn of the Best known for
fighting against the, uh,British and what's golden stall,
(38:20):
which is essentially when, um,the British are trying to
conquer, the Ashanti Empire.
Most of the male chiefs andkings had kind of resigned
themselves to trying make peaceof the British or reach some
kind of agreement.
And ya sanir, um, steadfastlyrefused in any way, shape or
form to do so and actually ledher people.
And, she was elderly by thispoint, actually, you know,
(38:41):
seventies But she led uh, theAshanti against the British, um,
in these conflicts.
So it was kind of remembered asthis, um, steadfast, warrior,
Queen, refused to bow to, um,external pressure.
Um, and actually sort of actedas the last line.
And this is what I find quitefascinating.
(39:02):
a lot of female figures who arehistory is that they're always
remembered as, as sort of.
Being the final defense inmaintaining, integrity and
sovereignty, sovereignty oftheir against or from external
pressures, so in, I.
In Jingga case, it's the Rain'scase, it's the Romans.
(39:28):
ya Sanwas case, uh, it's, it'sthe British, so that's something
also that that Yeah.
But those cases in Nigeria andin North Africa, and again, it
all comes, I think it'sinteresting.
I think the ones who, they findit quite interesting, the ones
who always remembered actuallyare the Warrior Queens,
especially in the African aswell.
'cause mm-hmm.
I think women filled so manyroles and so many important
roles, even outside of warfare,when governance, law and order,
(39:53):
um, justice, uh, customs and,and ceremonies.
But the figures, the individualfigures who are um, had this
kind well, you know, they, they.
Not, not necessarily there aremartial elements in the sense
that they were, um, warmongering at all, but they were
the ones who, when push came toshove would, stand strong, in
(40:15):
the face of external so I findthat quite fascinating.
And that seems to really be afemale figures who were, who
were sort of remembered.
And it's kind of the oppositeto, I would say, to the male
figures.
'cause a lot of the male figureswho remembered for the most
part, um, in African history,especially in, the ancient
Medieval are usually thefounders.
So, like I mentioned, there's,we say Tutu, he's the founder of
(40:36):
the Ashanti Empire.
There's Sun, who's sort of, uh,who's this, uh, late 12th, early
13th century, but the femalefigures are remembered as the,
the protectors, who, hold theline, kind of started and
originated.
the things at least, at least asfar as concerned.
(40:58):
That's so insightful.
Thank you so much, Thank youever so much and I think it's,
it has kind of nicely come fullcircle because you started Luke
by talking about how you wrote alot of broad themes and then
specific figures would kind ofpop out who.
Exemplified those themes, andthat's exactly what you've ended
(41:20):
on.
You've talked about these themesof, of femininity or of
masculinity and how, how thesespecific characters came out of
those, those tales and, and areremembered through history for,
for delivering those qualities.
He, he knows what he is doing,doesn't he?
(41:40):
To spoilers.
Yeah.
An embarrassment of riches.
Thank you ever so much.
Yeah.
'cause I was, yeah.
'cause you know, if we givenmore time, Michael would've love
to go into more of n in Jinggastory in particular.
I'd spoke, um, sort of the broadstrokes of ya wan You can always
come back, you know, if you,okay.
Maybe we'll come back hearinganother visit, but Yeah.
Give us a quick little synopsisof your, of your book.
(42:03):
So my book, motherland, uh, ajourney through 500,000 of
African culture explores as the,as the subtitle mentions 500,000
of, African history.
And it, you know, makes thepoint that there's so much
African and we don't coverbeyond especially years, but
it's split into 10 thematicchapters, each of which covers,
(42:25):
um, a different theme, uh, and adifferent aspect identity.
So these include ancestralveneration, uh,
multiculturalism, oralliterature.
And depending on the theme, Iexplore a So for trade and
migration, Swahili coast and,um, the East Africans across the
(42:46):
Indian Ocean and for literature,Mali, Niger in Senegal.
And then I also look at, um,riddling and word in West
Africa, and, you know, I move,I, I move around and just try
and I give people a sense of thesophistication of the African
(43:09):
past, which is exactly what youdid today.
Thank you so much.
What's the best place to playyour book?
Um, I'd say online Onward Stonesis great.
We can link them in the shownotes.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much joining us.
Thank you so much both forhaving me.
Hey, and we'll see you soon.
Yes, thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you.
audio2663295054 (43:32):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
Kara is American, you see?
So you've, yes.
The exclusive time that I'll behappy to speak for my country at
the moment.
You don't, as an American, youdon't wanna do that, but yeah,
like, congratulations.
That's really, really cool.
Very cool.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So yeah, so looking forward to,yeah.
Getting stuck into it.
Hi Cara.
(00:28):
Hi Vicki.
Hi.
How are you?
I'm well, thank you.
How are you doing today?
I'm very excited today'cause um,I, I get to speak to you most
weeks, which is wonderful.
But today don't play that down.
That's Come on.
That's true.
Sorry.
Uh, but today we have thewonderful loop of para with us.
We've got our first guest on thesheet.
Yay.
(00:48):
Podcast.
Oh, I might, oh gosh.
Wow.
I'm honored.
Good pressure.
Thank you.
No, no.
Honestly, it's a, it's aprivilege.
Brilliant.
Really to be here.
No, thank you for being here.
And we're gonna chat about allthe things.
African history today.
We've kind of, what have wedone?
We've kind of skirted on Africanhistory a little bit, but we
can't wait to dive in, so I'vegot a little introduction for
(01:09):
us, if that's okay.
We are incredibly excited towelcome Luke Peper, a Ghanaian
born Oxford educated historian.
Luke is truly revolutionizinghow we engage with African
history.
As an insightful author ofMotherland, moving us beyond
common narratives to uncover therich.
Diverse and often surprisingstories of the continent's past.
(01:32):
Prepare to have your perspectivebroadened and your understanding
enriched.
Welcome, Luke.
Thank you.
Really kind introduction.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank so we actually crossedpaths, didn't we?
The way our past across aGloucester history which I think
Karara was the main source of Ithink you introduced me to it,
(01:55):
Karara.
I've, I've wanted to go for afew years.
This is the first year I'veactually made it.
And Luke, your talk was thestandout thing that I thought.
This is, this is the thing we'regonna plan our day around.
So yeah, we were so excited to,to hear you and to learn some
more.
Yeah, thank you.
No, yes, exactly.
It was Gloucester and um, um,you know, it was a real pleasure
to meet you guys.
(02:17):
also had some really lovelyphotos as well, which I asked if
I could, if I could like repos.
'cause they were like reallynice and, yeah.
Organized me to come onto your,um, yeah, onto podcast.
Um, you know, focusing on, onwomen history.
And that is, um, you know,that's, that's a topic that,
definitely fits very neatlyinto, into African history and
(02:37):
African culture as well.
Um,'cause it's full of, um, welljust, well, first extraordinary
female figures, but actuallyit's a, there's a particular
historical and cultural.
Attitude in many Africansocieties, um, towards women,
which, um, people, are a littlebit more familiar, um, with
let's say, you know, Westernhistory you know, might not know
(02:58):
about, and, um, something that'squite novel.
Nice.
Um, did you get any otherphotos?
Was it just my dodgy Instagram?
No, there, uh, the night, so Igot, uh, I think, I don't know.
I mean, I think maybe there was,um, one, one other person who
took like, some of me on stage.
So I got some really nice photosof people kind of afterwards and
(03:19):
around.
But um, on, you know, on on, onstage itself, they were kind of
few and far between and I didn'treally have the foresight to
kind of had somewhere phone.
It'd be all like a, you know, Iwould've tried a lot harder if I
knew No, no, it was honestly, itwas great.
We were all, we were spellbound.
Nobody was whipping their phoneout.
You should take that as amassive confidence.
It was.
I do take that as a, I do takethat as a huge compliment,
(03:40):
honestly.
And, um, and it's so kind of,you say that, um, you know, you,
that you, you enjoyed talk somuch and that was the one that
you were kind of looking forwardto as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's really, that's pretty,um, well attended I thought as
well.
There was a lot of people there.
Yes.
Yes.
And there was, yeah.
So, um, yeah, no nerves at alltalking to that, uh, a house
that was slightly fuller than,than that I had kind of
(04:02):
envisaged.
But, uh, you know, as, as, askind of a debut.
And, and, and it's funnyactually'cause I.
You know, um, I'm sort of stillworking out how to do kind of
talks.
I would say that I'm probablybetter naturally in, in
conversation and when I can kindof bounce off, uh, you know,
what, uh, an interviewer andwhat the interviewer is saying
and the points they pick up on.
And it really helped spark like,fresh insights to me.
(04:25):
And this was one of the, a fewtalks, I think even I
potentially even the first onewhere I was actually just, you
know, it was on my own notespresenting to an audience and
I'd actually kind of writtensomething and it was half
scripted, half bullet points.
'cause I couldn't really decidewhat to do.
I think sometimes if it's, um,too scripted, you, you're not
engaging with the audienceenough.
But you know, the, the troublewith things, something that's
(04:45):
too bullet pointed you can swearaway from main points.
Um, so actually I did somethingin between and there was a
script, actually a bit of ascript that I wanted to follow.
And, um, about half, abouthalfway through I realized
that's something I planned tosay later I'd already said.
So that kind of like threw meoff like a little bit, but I was
just like, you know, I was kindof at the flow anyway.
(05:05):
And I know I kind of break itdown into stories and I know
which stories people, people areinterested in and, and kind of
like as well, and, and that arekind of, you know, in, they're
interesting in of itself, butthey're also crowd pleasers.
So, um, I think you're giving,um, Kara a heart attack.
We, we approach our podcast verydifferently and Kara is a script
lady, aren't you?
You're, yes.
I don't, I don't wanna engagewith human beings.
(05:27):
I just wanna read from a pageand then go, go about my
business.
Vicky's approach is so much simsimilar to yours though, the,
you know, little blocks of mainpoints, couple of bullets, and.
Interestingly from the outside,'cause we're in the audience
here on the stage and havingthat experience, I had no idea.
I had no idea that things hadgone a little, well, I should, I
(05:50):
should have kept it a secretthere.
There we go.
But no things, and you know, Ithink I realized that that was
maybe actually just the naturalflow and you know, the way I was
doing it in the script wasprobably not as natural.
So actually when I went withthat, I said, actually this
feels, this feels natural.
So lemme go with that.
Which is why hopefully it didn'tcome across as too, but then
that means you guys complimenteach other.
'cause then you kind of allhave, you know, I think has the
(06:12):
sort of bullet points and it's alittle more, you know, flow a
little bit more loosely and thenKara the script.
It's actually, it's actually,it's actually a great balance to
have.
So, um, yeah, yeah, definitely.
But, uh, yeah, but it was, yeah,we cover all bases I think.
Yeah, exactly.
But I would know it was funbeing there and getting to talk
to, you know, about Africanhistory too, um, to, to such an
engaged audience with, you know.
(06:32):
Awesome members like yourself,and then to meet people
afterwards.
So, well, tell us more, tell usmore about your, for the
listeners, your backgroundmm-hmm.
What, how you got into thisAfrican history,'Cause this is
your, this is your career now.
This is your job.
So how, how on earth did thathappen?
'cause it's very exciting.
Yes.
So, um, I, um, I was.
(06:53):
Born in Ghana, um, and, andraised in Ghana, um, before
coming to the UK at an earlyage.
And then, you know, all the wayup to, um, university.
And I'd always been interestedin, um, sort of history,
mythology, culture, um, andalso, uh, storytelling more
generally, I'd say right storywriting, but storytelling more.
Um, and initially that was uh,Greek myths and, uh, Roman myths
(07:16):
and legends, um, is what I'dbeen attracted to.
And, um, as I was, uh, you know,ending, at school and working
out what I what I, wanted to do,especially for university, et
cetera.
But it was actually.
At the end of the school, we hadto do, uh, like a personal um,
which, um, you know, counttowards our final grades.
(07:36):
But the subject, we were quiteopen in what we could do it
about.
And I decided to do mine about,um, uh, an element of Ghanaian,
of of, of Ghanaian Africanhistory.
Actually no one really, um, hasexplored any African history.
Um, so, um, you know, as you'regoing, you could have scope to
do that.
Um, so I thought actually, yeah,that, you know, I don't even
know a lot about that, thathistory in particular, but then
also the history of my, um, youknow, a lot of, you know, you, a
(07:59):
lot of my own heritage, thedeeper history of, of, of the
ethnic groups.
Um, like, um, the Ghanaian ethicgroup, the shanty or the who
kind of form my background andmy heritage.
Um, so I, I decided actuallythat, yeah, that might be quite
interesting to explore.
So I actually wanted to do aproject on, uh, the history of
the.
Uh, of the, one of the ethnicgroups, um, that I belong to in
Ghana.
(08:19):
Um, and my first point of callwas the, national Museum of
Ghana, where I thought I'd findsome more general information.
I.
Um, and when I went, I foundthat there wasn't really much,
much there apart informationartifacts relating to
trans-Atlantic slavery andcolonialism.
And, but I knew that there was alot more to African history than
(08:41):
this.
'cause I just sort ofencountered it, you know, always
going back or traveling back toGhana.
You know, you see a lot of thecultural value, the sort of
masks and drums and songs and,um, you know, stories.
It's, it's kind of all there.
So, you know that there was, youknow, there is a deeper ha uh,
deeper past.
There is a deeper culture, butit wasn't really being brought
out in any conscious orintellectual way.
And, and the museum was kind ofrepresentative of that.
(09:02):
Um, but, um, there was actuallyan element where, where it sort
of was, and that was at, um, theuniversity.
So, um, you know, my secondpoint of call is that I, I
managed to get in touch with acouple of.
Professors at the University ofGhana, and one of them, for
instance, showed me this museumat the back of the, um, of the
archeology department, um, whichhoused, uh, Ghanaian artifacts
dating to, uh, 500 ad.
And they were, um, they wereiron working artifacts, so used
(09:24):
to, uh, make iron implements andalso uh, the instruments or the
implements themselves.
Um, and that, you know, all the,the information that I got from
these professors and some of theresources they recommended me,
et cetera, allowed me to kind ofcomplete my, um.
to, to complete my project.
Um, but I'd kind of become, um,you know, I kind of got an
introduction, um, to lead the,you know, to to that history
(09:46):
and, and to that archeology.
And that was just for one groupof people or even in just one
country.
So I was exci, you know, I waskeen to know if, you know what,
what else lay beyond, um, evenjust gone, I mean more in Ghana,
but then, you know, I knew thatI'd be able to discover more in
Ghana, but also what laid beyondthat too.
Um, so that prompted me thenwhen,'cause this was at, you
know, end of school year.
So that prompted me want tostudy.
(10:07):
Or, you know, it was end of myschool time.
So that prompted me to want tostudy um, at, um, at university
because I thought that would be,um, one way to, um, interrogate,
interrogate this past.
And there I did a module on theformation of Sub-Saharan States,
existed between the 11thcenturies in Zimbabwe.
And they built this massivestone city of concentric circles
(10:30):
and were trading, you know, hadtrade links with, um, the
Indians and the Chinese, andthen also the East Africans
coast.
And, uh, the empires of Garsaand Mali between the ninth and
16th, 17th centuries.
And their trade across theSahara and the Met.
There was just so muchinformation Yeah.
Um, there to, to, to dig myteeth, dig my teeth, teeth into,
(10:51):
um.
After I graduated, there wassort of this Venn diagram
existing sort of in, in my mind,art, uh, of Africa, history and
storytelling.
Yeah.
All kind of, you know, sort of,I, I wanted to do something at
the confluence of that connectedthese things together.
When I left university, Istarted, um, writing, but
(11:13):
actually I was writing, um, sortof fiction stories initially, so
that was kind of thestorytelling side, but that were
allowing me to kind of, um,develop my creativity, Um, and
then that, and then that kind oftransitioned into doing some
about, you know, doing, doingsome stories, um, including sort
of a young adult novel, whichwas a.
a novelization of this guardianmyth.
(11:33):
So that was kind of where theAfrica writing storytelling
came, uh, came into being.
Um, and then this is verycreative.
Yeah, well, I was just trying atthe time, I was just trying
different things, but then thatlater on developed into a blog
about, um, African history andculture.
So those were kind of nonfictionyou know, it's just think pieces
about different elements ofAfrican history and culture that
came to mind.
And actually a lot of those blogpieces found, formed the
(11:55):
foundation of the, of thechapters in Motherland.
I later realized, I went backand looked at some of them not
too long ago So I did one on, Idid a, a, a blog piece on, uh,
the Veneration of Ancestors, andthen that kind of that, that's a
chapter I also, I do inMotherland So I was, I was doing
this blog, um, maintaining itand trying to kind of engage.
People, you know, find a way tokind of break into, um, like I
(12:17):
said, telling stories aboutAfrica, And wasn't, wasn't
actually getting much tractionto be perfectly honest.
During lockdown, actually inlockdown.
was 2020.
And it was also just after theGeorge Floyd, uh, you know, the,
the George Floyd incident andall the protests, et cetera.
Kate Williams had basicallyposted on Twitter saying, anyone
of.
African Sense who's interestedin getting into history, being a
(12:39):
historian, she messaged me and Iwas familiar with her and
familiar with her work.
I've watched her on TV inparticular.
So I just got in touch with her,basically asking for advice.
I said, I've written this blog.
Her advice was that if you, youknow, when I wrote to her, she
said, uh, you know, your stuffon the blog is interesting.
It's pretty interesting.
Um, if you want to do tv, thebest thing to do initially would
(12:59):
do a, book.
Um, and then you can go fromthere basically.
And so this is just one piece,Midland is one piece with this
mother was Exactly.
Well, it was, but it was just,you know, how do I put it?
I think it's, you know, I'vetried to kind of, um, tell the
story in, in as broad strokes asI can so that it's not too, um,
you know, it, it doesn't becometoo boring or over detailed I
(13:19):
say sometimes people thatmotherland as whether nonfiction
history is one of the lastthings I kind of kept I, I'd,
I'd kind of come to,'cause I'd,um, I'd, I'd, you know, I tried
everything else.
I'd even done a, I'd even donea, um.
So just before I was in touchwith Kate Williams and just
after I tried with the novelsand, and you know, I'd done the
short stories, the novels andthe blogs, I'd, um, done this
(13:40):
part-time filmmaking course andit met film school in Ling and
it was basically just a, it wasa part-time course and at the
end of it you basically madelike a short film.
And again, that film exploredelements of African culture and
heritage, including the Africaor Ghanaian Folklore Hero, um,
and Ansy, who's sort of our godof mythology and storytelling.
And he was also the maincharacter of, of the novel.
(14:00):
So again, that was.
The confluence of writing Africaand storytelling, all these
things that had kind of existedin me for a little bit.
And I was just trying to get astructure and find out how to
really, and just how to make itwork in reality as it were.
After I'd got in touch with,Kate and showed her my stuff and
she gave me that advice and shewas the one who me to, um, the
people who could actually make,my plans or my, my, dreams and
(14:24):
my ambitions are a reality.
So, for instance, she you know,to an agent.
And, and it was, you know, withthem I was able, I worked on the
proposal for what is nowmotherland, basically.
Wow.
So we just had discussions, to,to, to flesh out the idea.
And then that was what.
an editor was kind ofinterested.
Oh, from a tweet.
Oh, from a tweet, isn't that, orfrom a tweet.
Yeah.
(14:44):
Or from a tweet.
But I think, you know, alsowanna say is that yes for, you
know, from the Twitter, but youknow, again, I'd got in touch
with so many people, likefriends.
I tried, anyone who I'd metfriends.
I'll say, if you, anybody youknown in sort of documentaries
or in, films, I mean, even inbetween as well, I'd done some
like, you know, uh, uh, tutoringjust to kind of, you know, just
to kind of keep active.
Um, but, you know, trying to,but then I get in touch with,
(15:05):
like I said, producers, um,people who worked in journalism,
um, academics.
Just trying to find, you know,what, creative industries are so
hard to navigate, aren't they?
They're so difficult to findyour place and what's keeping
authentic as well.
Yes, exactly.
Through to what you wanna sayand what you wanna do.
Exactly.
And I think it's, you know, it'sbasically because you are left.
(15:27):
For the most part to kind ofwork it out for your, for
yourself.
You know, it's, there's no,there's no structure so much,
you know, there's no graduatescheme as it were on becoming
populist but it's just, I think,really important just to, to, I
think having a body of material,like I, I, at least what I think
what worked for me was having abody of material, IE the blog
and then, um, and then, uh, justtrying to get in touch with as
(15:49):
many people as possible.
Um, and oh, this started as ablog.
This, right.
Okay.
Was a blog like.
It's had many iterations, Iguess.
Actually some of the episodeshave pulled directly from the
blog much like you did because,you know, I know the stories are
exciting.
I know that they've got the wowfactors and the moments that
make people remember the storiesand, you know, and it saves
(16:11):
times to say, I've done all thisresearch already, I think as, as
well, you're, what I'm noticingabout both of you is that you
have a real clarity about whatyou're interested in and wanting
to share that.
You can afford then to beflexible about the how, like
you're gonna attack it.
You're gonna try every way thatyou can, because what you are
really interested in is thatstory and sharing it how it gets
(16:35):
to people.
That's fine.
Whatever works.
That's really practical and verycool to just, you know, keep
trying.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
I think industries move on alittle bit, don't they?
Because, well, I say that booksare stood the test of time,
haven't they?
'cause there was that periodwhere it was like, was it eBooks
or Kindles were like out doinglike.
(16:56):
Paper books.
And now it seems to have flippedout the other way, but like
podcasting is still quite in itsinfancy, I think, isn't it?
And yeah, podcasting and audiofor sure.
And I think audio books as well,you know, will become probably
the next thing that people kindof engage with and enjoy.
And kind of what, with Kara saidis that, you know, if you have
a.
(17:16):
if you know what you wanna shareand you just have a passion of
sharing something, I think youjust, you just do that in, in
whatever format and then youfind the one that kind of works
for you.
I think I've tried probably, andoften I will, I will do
something just to try it.
Um, you for the most part, youknow, if the odd scene kind of
presents itself, um, and workingout if it kind of fits for me.
'cause I think the thing thatyou're more likely, you know,
you are more likely to succeedis the thing you're more likely
(17:38):
to do more of.
And the thing you're more likelyto do more of is the thing that
you enjoy.
So I really like, writing and,and books for example.
But as Kara said, it's all to dowith just sharing, um, you know,
sharing.
For me it's about sharingstories and knowledge and
information about the deeperAfrican past African history and
culture.
That's kind of the foundation.
I loved you mentioning Anandebecause we had a librarian when
(18:03):
I was a very young girl whobrought those stories to us, and
that was like the best part ofschool.
She would sit us all down and,and read these tales.
And, um, your enjoyment and loveof it just comes through, you
know, like it, I, I wonder, thisbeing.
She changed history.
I, I won't kind of crack onabout Anan Saver too awful long,
(18:27):
but I wonder if there are otherfigures from folklore who sort
of resonated with you in thatway and bonus points if they are
female.
'cause Well, it's interestingyou mentioned the female'cause
actually in the American South,and Nancy himself was
transformed into a femalefigure, um, auntie Nancy.
Ah, um, so he actually kind oftrans, so he, he becomes,'cause
(18:49):
what he is in Ghana and actuallyin Jamaica and then obviously in
the American South, is that evenin these societies that
obviously are kind of culturallyhistorically related, but um,
have had, you know, the peoplewho live within them have
obviously had different,different experiences.
Um, and, and the Africans andespecially the AAN that the
larger group of people who livedin the regional territory of
(19:11):
what's now Ghana and who were,one of the primary groups who
were, um, sort of enslaved intraffic to the Caribbean and
then also to the American South.
But in all of them and Nancyfunctions as a figure of, um,
of, of freedom actually.
So in.
In traditional account society,um, in West Africa, it's a
society that's seen as beingquite, um, quite restrictive and
(19:32):
quite hierarchical.
It's quite like rule-based and,you know, there are different,
codes of conduct and behaviorand respect that you have to
accord to different people andin the stories.
And an is this chaotic figurewho breaks all the rules and
does what he wants.
And part of the reason for thatis actually provides a, a almost
a catharsis for people who feelfrustrated with having to follow
all the rules in, in society.
(19:53):
So that's one of the reason totell the story.
And then in Jamaica, he acted asthis, um.
Uh, as this disruptive figure.
And so he's like the un I mean,even in, in a can, he's the
underdog.
But in Jamaica, he's kind ofthis underdog figure who is
outsmarting all these figureswho are much more powerful than
him.
And, and, and through thatgaining his freedom, which is
what the enslaved, um, a can inJamaica were, were inspired to
do, you know, with theirmasters.
(20:13):
So it was, he was basically afigure of rebellion.
He was this, you know, thisfigure of rebellion and, and
resilience in difficult times.
And it was kind of a similarthing in, in, in the American
South.
But then also, like I said, hetransforms con female'cause he
takes on a much more, maybe Iwould say like arguably
traditionally maternal, aspectand instinct, and he's about
looking out for his people andmaking sure that they're, that
they're, um, comfortable um, andyou know, again, there's that
(20:36):
influence and importance of, ofthe female figure in African
American culture.
Um, as, uh, you know, The, themothers of figure and so seen as
foundational support, in thecommunity.
And I think that has somethingto do with, an Nancy's
transition.
I mean, in Ghana as well.
There's a figure.
I mean, it's, she's sort of theopposite.
It's quite funny, but there's afolk girl figure called, um,
(20:59):
mommy Water, um, who I think hasalso made, I don't know, um.
Uh, she's not as international.
I mean, and Nancy is quiteextraordinary because he has
this international, like youmentioned, uh, people telling,
you know, sort of tellingstories about him when you were
young.
I mean, he is, he's, he'sachieved this kind of,
international and even to anextent, pop culture recognition.
You know, he exists in novels.
He's in Neil Gamer novels andhe's in comic books and he's in,
(21:21):
you know, he's in loads ofdifferent media.
I don't think mommy water, thissame figure has kind of had, but
she's basically almost like awater spirit, uh, who tempts,
misbehaving men to their doomessentially.
So she's, that could beobviously, if I remember
correctly, we, we love adangerous woman.
That's, that's right.
F it's, it's kind of, the men,who are kind of, uh, you know,
(21:41):
they're, they're adulterers ormy wife beats us, that kind of
thing.
She's, she's almost like thatfigure of like retribution,
towards him.
Okay.
Um, and, that's kind of theinfluencer position she holds in
traditional account society andjust, and this quite, like a
feared but also spiritualfigure.
And obviously she's connectedwith, um, this powerful, um, but
also pure spiritual force, whichis water obviously, you know,
(22:01):
she said to reside in waterformations.
Um, and laws, these people whoare prone to, um, misbehaving
Brandon also mistreated women toa certain kind of Yeah.
Certain kind of doom.
Um, uh, yes, acts is nothing.
So there's, there's sort of ananti transition and there's this
one figure who's also quite wellknown in the a can context.
(22:24):
Isn't it interesting thatthere's probably so many things
like that in our society thathave African heritage and of
source from Africa, um, that youwouldn't necessarily, because
there's something isn't rap fromGhana and as well.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Well I think it's very organizedspecifically, but I think rap
(22:44):
and then especially, rapbattles, the United States
states share a lot of elementsand features that can be traced
back to Africa.
Oral storytelling, the oralform, word games, riddling
games, just oral literature isjust, is so incredibly developed
in Africa.
I mean, we as a, you know, we asa, we as a, we as a species
generally, you know, human beingsort of storytelling and oral
storytelling as a border.
(23:05):
But in Africa, that traditionhas been maintained.
So in so many African cultures,you have hereditary
storytellers, whether it's theOchi army in, in Ghana, or or
the Grios just above Ghana, sortof what's, what's subscribed as
the, uh, as the Sahel, which isthe western part of Sudan, ary
storytellers and it's just,they're a, they're a group of
people, a cast, a cast insociety whose job it is to,
(23:29):
Remember, or record, remember,and pass down, the history.
And so, um, in African culturesespecially just, um, orally,
lyrically are very wellpracticed.
And a lot of that, for lack of abetter word, talent, but a lot
of that history and a lot ofthat heritage, um, found its way
obviously to, um mm-hmm.
You know, to, to the UnitedStates via, the Africans who,
(23:51):
who existed in that societyearly on and I do wanna stress
that, rap is, very much anAfrican American form.
Like, it's, it's not, it, Ithink it, it has one can argue
definitely for its roots beingan African eye.
And I, and I do think, and couldput evidence, forward for its
roots being there, but itcouldn't have as it is now as
Wrap is now.
And, and as it developed, itcouldn't have developed probably
(24:12):
anywhere else than in thatcontext, Of America and of, and,
of the Africans in America too.
Yeah.
I was thinking how oraltraditions they must bring such
a sense of belonging because youreferenced it there as a role.
It was a role for people to doand gosh, the.
That is, that is a veryimportant job, isn't it?
Yes, yes, yes.
(24:33):
And, uh, you know, exactly.
I mean, this even ties into theAfrican, the entire African
conception of history itself, isthat,, what is recorded and
remembered is, what's importantfor ensuring, maintaining, and
ensuring social and culturalcohesion.
It's about getting people tounderstand who they are, why
they are, and why it's importantthat they understand who they
are and why they are.
(24:53):
And that's also doing with, withfostering.
So, uh, you would notice a lotof the traditional, you know, in
the narratives of a lot of thetraditional storytellers, the
people's whose job it is to, isto record.
Yes.
And, you know, and in, you know,I mentioned those West African
storytellers, the Greers, in,the Saha, et cetera.
What's interesting with'emparticularly is that, you know,
that role was not a role thatwas restricted to, to men.
(25:16):
You had, female, GREs as well,but then they were actually, I
mean, the GREs generally, bothmen and women were more than
just storytellers or historians.
They also performed other rolesin society.
So, for example,, in certaincultures in part of Africa, the
female, GREs, would help to, forexample, attend a bride during
her wedding day, for instance,as well as remembering the
(25:38):
history.
There was, there was actuallycomplete, Equality Greers.
And actually even in Senegal inthe 20th century, there were
these, um, and I, me, Imentioned them briefly actually
in But there's a group of womencalled, um, uh, que, which
means, uh, like women living inopulence and elegance, and
they're essentially wealthy.
(26:01):
I mean, they're essentiallywealthy.
They're independently wealthy,well respected women, and they
sort of travel around, you know,they're usually like, um, you
know, they're usually involvedin some kind of, um, business or
commerce, and they travel aroundwith these massive entourages,
including female greers and oneof their jobs.
And this is a job for allGreers, but in this particular
context, or this is a job allGreers do, but in this
particular context, um, thefemale growers who travel with
(26:24):
them and, you know, they're,they're kind of, um, patronized
by them.
So, you know, the, the durian,the, the, rich women will kind
of pay them for these services,but one of the things they do is
they go around singing what'scalled pray songs in honor of
these women saying, uh, youknow, you're so wonderful and
you're so right and yourancestors, uh, wow, you know,
are phenomenal.
And, and, and it, and it's, andit all, it all goes to raising
(26:45):
the woman's prestige such thatwhen she, um, is in, you know,
let's say a group with,potential contacts or business
contact, she's seen as, as, asbeing a person with whom they
would certainly want to do, wantto do business.
Um, nice sort of.
Please.
Sounds great.
Um, so I could listen to youtalk all day.
(27:06):
It's ridiculous, do you have anywomen from either the research
in your book or, from your, vastamount of knowledge, in African
history that, we think peopleshould know about more?
I mean, yes, certainly.
Off the top of my head I kind ofhave, um, two or three who kind
of really impressed me.
One is top three.
The top three.
One is the, one is the, 17thCentury Queen of, uh, the
(27:30):
Kingdom of Ingo, um, in Dongoexisted in what's now Northern
Angola.
And her name is, inj and Bande.
And she's particularlyphenomenal because she was the
first queen of her kingdom.
I mean, in, in, in first Queenof Ingo, uh, in, in Dongo, women
had always been, important and,and, and respected.
They'd always taken part in, um.
(27:51):
Uh, affairs, political affairsand, economic affairs and
current affairs, they had alwaysbeen, um, relatively
independent, in the sense that,they weren't, that they didn't
need to marry, for example, toto ensure that they could live
or they were looked after.
They could divorce, uh, forwhatever reason they wished, um,
they weren't viewed as propertyin any way.
(28:12):
Um, but there had not yet beenby the 17th century, a female
king whose people sort ofremembered.
I mean, maybe in, in, in INGO'sdistant past there had been, um,
female founders so, um, Injingais the first.
Um, but she is, um, wellremembered in Angola today
basically for almost singlehandedly ensuring the
maintenance of the sovereigntyof her kingdom in the face of
(28:35):
increasing Portuguese, um,expansion, especially in West
central Africa.
Like I said, active in, in sortof uh, late 16th to the mid 17th
century.
And she fights against thePortuguese for about, you know,
for, for close to 50 years.
But she's,, often on thebattlefield herself, directly
engaged in the conflict, againstthem.
(28:57):
So she's absolutely phenomenal.
We find this with a lot of ourwomen, you know, don't we Kara,
they're always on thebattlefield.
They're always hands on.
Yep.
Yeah.
They're so hands not afraid toget hands-on.
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
That's why she just perfectlyfits the description of a
Warrior Queen.
And I find that a lot of thesefigures, female, historical
female figures were exactlythat.
I mean, they were.
(29:18):
Queens in the sense that theywere the highest authority in
their kingdom and they governedtheir kingdom and they did all
the kind the day-to-day runningof the kingdom as it were, the
day-to-day governance.
But, um, they revolved in allaspects, including warfare.
And when there were, in themidst of the fray, often a lot
more than, some kings were inmost instances actually.
So the, so I would say in j morethan the second.
(29:39):
And these are, uh, you know, inJingga write about in land.
The second is Armani Rees, uh,about whom we don't know.
Her name is Armani Rees, aboutwhom we don't have as much,
information, but she lived, um,around the turn of the
millennium.
So say, you know, 2020 BC toaround 10 80.
So around that time,, in Nubia,which is essentially what's now
(30:02):
Northern Sudan and SouthernEgypt.
And she was one of Group offemale figures that are
collectively called ba, uh,collectively known as the kanke
these were basically, queenmothers in Kush who at one point
in the Kingdom independently.
Yeah.
So in Kush, oh, sorry.
(30:22):
Uh, Kush is just for a, anotherword for we did an episode on.
Yeah, now you go.
So then your listeners willcome.
Yeah.
We know a little bit, and thenyour listeners already be, um,
ready, be familiar, So the Nubiawas sort of the, the country in,
in the location that Idescribed, Northern Sudan,
Southern Egypt.
And in that country the Nubianshad three kingdoms, so there was
karma which existed from which,um, I mean it is as old as 5,000
(30:44):
bc It's crazy, crazy, isn't it?
The timeframes insane.
5,000 BC to I think, actually, Ithink to around 15, 1500 BC.
Correct.
And then there was Napita, um,which was around 800 bcs, around
300 bc.
And then there was, because thatsort of the in between part is
when the Egyptians kind of Yeah,the Egyptians sort of took, uh,
(31:07):
invaded and conquered, um, Um,and then, yes, Napita, then me,
BC to Um, during, the Napanperiod, so from about 800 BC I
mean, and since Karma, women hadalways been important, but in,
(31:28):
in karma, they'd have more likereligious roles, socio religious
roles.
So they were importantpriestesses, the administration.
And they performed rituals thathelped,, deepen the king's
relationship with the godsessentially.
Um, and then in 800 BC theirimportance increase so that the
founder of the, uh, nap anddynasty, a nubbin King, called
Lara, basically made it so that,Pite kingship became elective.
(31:50):
So before that, it was,probably, for the most part,
primogenitor, so at least one ofthe sons of the former king
would inherit, but, RA made itso that, um, there would be an
election held between, sons of,uh, also his sons.
But then also the sons of hissisters as well.
So his nephews and the generalsand the important officials in
(32:12):
Kush, would basically, theywould basically, uh, converse
and, and argue amongstthemselves as to who and they
would elect them.
And what happened is that whenthe king was elected and their
mother took on the position of,uh, the queen mother and the
queen mother was, was, wasarguably in Kush.
I mean, she had a reallyimportant role in deciding who
(32:32):
the next would be.
So the king, so the queen,mother of the king who just died
basically would have animportant role in deciding who
the next elect would be amongstthat dead king's, uh, children
or his nephews, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
And then when.
The EE was chosen, that person'smother would become the new
queen mother.
And when the kings, oh gosh.
Oh yeah.
Would so change.
(32:53):
So before the ee could beofficially confirmed as the new
King of Kush, you would have totravel around all the important
cities in Nubia, and, um, ateach, temple, in the cities, he
would basically have toconfirmed in his role by, by the
God moon.
And this took part, um, youknow, this happened as part of a
special ceremony, but one of thereally important parts of that
(33:14):
ceremony is that his mother, thequeen mother, would have to come
and basically give a speechasking Aman to consecrate her
son, such that he could rulerule Nubia and.
If that ritual that was done bythe queen mother wasn't
completed, then the king was notallowed to rule.
So she was, she was directlyusing control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was directly part of thatprocess of making, of making him
(33:37):
the next queen.
And part of the reason for thatis that Egyptians and Nubian
shared a lot of their religion,a lot of their cosmology with
each other, but in Nubia, theGodde ISIS was important and,
obviously her son Horace wasimportant.
In the physical world where thenew newborns actually lived,
they saw the queen mother asisis, not even, as a
representative, they sawliterary as Isis and they saw
(33:57):
the sun literaries liter asHorace.
And as part of the stories isIsis she kind of, you know, she
raises him, to take over hisking.
And that was kind of beingparalleled in the Nubian world,
was that the queen mother wasraising her son to be an
effective ruler.
So in that case, she wasphenomenally, phenomenally
important.
And this, I think this isimportant to mention'cause this
is the foundation on which, um,that queen I mentioned the
(34:19):
start, Armani Re and the Kandancase in general, uh, those kind
of female autocratic, rulers ofKush came into being, is that,
you know, supporter realizedthat female importance and,
power was baked into, Nubiansociety mostly it's the queen
mother and her son, butsometimes it's actually, the,
wife, or the king and the queen,you know, husband.
(34:40):
And this was the case with,Armani Renus, you know, she kind
of rules her husband is uh,Tarica.
And she rules mostly alongsidehim, So for instance, when the
Romans, invade or invade andconquer Egypt, and they have
this plan to conquer bothWestern Asia and Nuba at the
same time.
They want to you is they make,incursions into, then the
(35:02):
Northern Nubians rebel, um, amovement and then the Romans
kind of come back at them.
But actually when the Nubiansrebel, uh.
Tarka and Armani Rena supportthe rebellion.
Um, so they directly engaged inthe conflict against them.
And then when the Romans kind ofpush back, Amanirenas actually,
takes over and she's describedGreek historian Strayer, is
(35:24):
being this kind of fearsomeone-eyed warrior queen.
It's just terrifying.
You know, it was almost likethis kind of, you know, the
Amazon of legend.
Yeah, and actually there, yeah,there are a steel line relief
where the queen is representedas being, bigger and larger,
more powerful than, or, youknow, the, the kan than, than
her husband, king.
And she's often depicted with,um, these traditional Egyptian
(35:47):
motifs, denoting power andconquest and control.
So one of the favorite ones is,um, sort of sing smiting enemies
as like a very famous motif ofthe Egyptians to show kind of
dominance and power.
And you see Kanke, um, uh, whoare, uh, presented in this way.
They're actually presentingthemselves as both feminine and
powerful.
(36:07):
Yeah.
Um, in that African context.
And there's no contradictionbetween the, between the two.
Amanirenas, you know, she's wellknown for basically having.
Similar to Injinga havinginstalled the Roman advance and
prevented the Roman, um,incursion into Nubia.
She battles against, the Romansfor fears.
And actually at a point, it'salmost like war of attrition and
(36:29):
they basically feel that it'snot, pursuing this any further.
So they actually sue for peaceand Amanirenas organizes for
ambassadors to.
negotiate directly, with,Octavian, they're now known as
Augustus.
Augustus on the island of Samoswhere he's on holiday and she
actually doesn't end up goingherself.
She just says, I'll leave it upto my ambassadors.
Um, and the Romans agree, forexample, when conquered Northern
(36:52):
Kush state and post taxes, forexample, and they agreed to push
back, and then they're givenonly a sliver, of that Northern
territory, which has agreed toact as a buffer zone between
them and the Nubians.
But then they agreed to removethe taxes.
And they also, agreed torecognize Nubian sovereignty.
Um, and, the Greek historianShaer basically concludes that
(37:13):
Nubians from, the Romans, theyhad just so successfully, uh,
stor stored their advance andmade it difficult to.
Go further into Africa as wells.
Fascinating, my gosh.
And then the third, the third isone, um, about whom I, I have
(37:35):
written in, in my book, but, youknow, know a few details.
Know a few de details about,because she's, um, you know,
she's a can, she's a shanty, youknow, I'm a shanty.
Might as well as being a queer,I'm a shanty myself.
And, um, her name is Ya andshe's, um, she's a lot later.
A lot.
It is gonna have a spam.
We have like the ancient rain,early modern, which is Inga.
And then, um, sort of modern,which is, What is Shanti Ya?
(37:58):
So Ashanti, that's a Exactlywhat, but Ashanti is just the
name of the people who, okay.
Um, yeah, it's the name of thepe it's the name of the people
basically who, um, inhabitwhat's now, what's now Ghana.
'Cause you know, ya San um, is,best known for fighting at the,
at the turn of the century, theturn of the Best known for
fighting against the, uh,British and what's golden stall,
(38:20):
which is essentially when, um,the British are trying to
conquer, the Ashanti Empire.
Most of the male chiefs andkings had kind of resigned
themselves to trying make peaceof the British or reach some
kind of agreement.
And ya sanir, um, steadfastlyrefused in any way, shape or
form to do so and actually ledher people.
And, she was elderly by thispoint, actually, you know,
(38:41):
seventies But she led uh, theAshanti against the British, um,
in these conflicts.
So it was kind of remembered asthis, um, steadfast, warrior,
Queen, refused to bow to, um,external pressure.
Um, and actually sort of actedas the last line.
And this is what I find quitefascinating.
(39:02):
a lot of female figures who arehistory is that they're always
remembered as, as sort of.
Being the final defense inmaintaining, integrity and
sovereignty, sovereignty oftheir against or from external
pressures, so in, I.
In Jingga case, it's the Rain'scase, it's the Romans.
(39:28):
ya Sanwas case, uh, it's, it'sthe British, so that's something
also that that Yeah.
But those cases in Nigeria andin North Africa, and again, it
all comes, I think it'sinteresting.
I think the ones who, they findit quite interesting, the ones
who always remembered actuallyare the Warrior Queens,
especially in the African aswell.
'cause mm-hmm.
I think women filled so manyroles and so many important
roles, even outside of warfare,when governance, law and order,
(39:53):
um, justice, uh, customs and,and ceremonies.
But the figures, the individualfigures who are um, had this
kind well, you know, they, they.
Not, not necessarily there aremartial elements in the sense
that they were, um, warmongering at all, but they were
the ones who, when push came toshove would, stand strong, in
(40:15):
the face of external so I findthat quite fascinating.
And that seems to really be afemale figures who were, who
were sort of remembered.
And it's kind of the oppositeto, I would say, to the male
figures.
'cause a lot of the male figureswho remembered for the most
part, um, in African history,especially in, the ancient
Medieval are usually thefounders.
So, like I mentioned, there's,we say Tutu, he's the founder of
(40:36):
the Ashanti Empire.
There's Sun, who's sort of, uh,who's this, uh, late 12th, early
13th century, but the femalefigures are remembered as the,
the protectors, who, hold theline, kind of started and
originated.
the things at least, at least asfar as concerned.
(40:58):
That's so insightful.
Thank you so much, Thank youever so much and I think it's,
it has kind of nicely come fullcircle because you started Luke
by talking about how you wrote alot of broad themes and then
specific figures would kind ofpop out who.
Exemplified those themes, andthat's exactly what you've ended
(41:20):
on.
You've talked about these themesof, of femininity or of
masculinity and how, how thesespecific characters came out of
those, those tales and, and areremembered through history for,
for delivering those qualities.
He, he knows what he is doing,doesn't he?
(41:40):
To spoilers.
Yeah.
An embarrassment of riches.
Thank you ever so much.
Yeah.
'cause I was, yeah.
'cause you know, if we givenmore time, Michael would've love
to go into more of n in Jinggastory in particular.
I'd spoke, um, sort of the broadstrokes of ya wan You can always
come back, you know, if you,okay.
Maybe we'll come back hearinganother visit, but Yeah.
Give us a quick little synopsisof your, of your book.
(42:03):
So my book, motherland, uh, ajourney through 500,000 of
African culture explores as the,as the subtitle mentions 500,000
of, African history.
And it, you know, makes thepoint that there's so much
African and we don't coverbeyond especially years, but
it's split into 10 thematicchapters, each of which covers,
(42:25):
um, a different theme, uh, and adifferent aspect identity.
So these include ancestralveneration, uh,
multiculturalism, oralliterature.
And depending on the theme, Iexplore a So for trade and
migration, Swahili coast and,um, the East Africans across the
(42:46):
Indian Ocean and for literature,Mali, Niger in Senegal.
And then I also look at, um,riddling and word in West
Africa, and, you know, I move,I, I move around and just try
and I give people a sense of thesophistication of the African
(43:09):
past, which is exactly what youdid today.
Thank you so much.
What's the best place to playyour book?
Um, I'd say online Onward Stonesis great.
We can link them in the shownotes.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much joining us.
Thank you so much both forhaving me.
Hey, and we'll see you soon.
Yes, thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you.
audio2663295054 (43:32):
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