June 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Nona Gaprindashvili: The Chess Prodigy Who Fought Back
In this episode, the host discusses Nona Gaprindashvili vs Netflix, a Georgian chess prodigy who rose to prominence in the 1950s. Known for her aggressive playing style, she broke gender barriers by competing and winning against both women and men in the international chess arena. The episode covers her early influences, rigorous training under mentor Tigran Petrosian, and significant victories that earned her the titles of World Women's Chess Champion and Chess Grandmaster. The discussion further highlights the controversy surrounding Netflix's 'The Queen's Gambit,' which inaccurately portrayed her legacy and pitted her against fictional Beth Harmon, leading to a successful lawsuit by Gaprindashvili. The episode underscores the importance of protecting and celebrating women's achievements in male-dominated fields.
00:00 Introduction to 'Other Parents' by Sarah Stave
00:42 Nicole Kidman's Influence in Adaptations
02:15 Summer Heat and Casual Conversations
03:26 Introducing Nona Garrin Philly: The Real Chess Queen
04:48 Nona's Early Life and Chess Beginnings
10:13 The Rise of Nona in the Chess World
20:09 The Lengthy Chess Championship
21:13 Nona's Rise to Mastery
22:40 Soviet Dominance in Women's Chess
25:13 Breaking Barriers in Men's Tournaments
30:05 The Queen's Gambit Controversy
34:50 Nona's Fight for Recognition
36:09 Lessons from Nona's Legacy
38:17 Conclusion and Call to Action
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1958744921 (00:08):
And then this book is called Other Parents by
Sarah Stave, and it's about likesmall town gossip and secrets
and it, it's a novel, I'mguessing, not a Yes, not a bio.
Oh, it's got a little bit It'sby the lady who, oh, Leanne
Moriarty.
It's got that kind of feel toit.
(00:29):
I think.
You know, she did Nine PerfectStrangers and what's the other
one where there was a bike.
Oh.
I'm not sure on that one.
That's really poor plot.
My mom would know.
She's, she would know.
Ellen would know, but I've, Ijust watched the BBC adaptation
of the last anniversary, whichapparently is one of hers.
(00:51):
And you know, Nicole Kidman wasin Nine Perfect Strangers.
Mm-hmm.
She produced this one.
So Nicole Kidman is God not init, and that's on, but she
produced it.
And I thought it was absolutelysmashing, like really gripping
and not, not stupid.
Lots of sex, which I did notexpect.
Nicole Kidman loves the Shelives a She's, yeah.
(01:14):
Can't get enough of it.
That's her directorialrequirement.
How much?
Yeah, I think cha, regardless ofthe situation, it could be like
MI five or it could be a smalltown drama.
She's on it.
She's like, yeah, it's gotta,you know what, this needs naked
bottoms.
It's just, that's what you need.
It's says things about her lifetoo, doesn't it?
Because if she's like, wellthis, she's fulfilled to really
(01:37):
hit the realism.
We need some shagging in this,uh, truck stop.
Yeah.
Or whatever it might be.
She's just, that's the lifeshe's living.
Um.
You know what?
She would play very well.
Our protagonist she would sexthat up.
There's no sex in the story, butshe would sex it up.
(02:00):
She'd add it in there, she'dfind it.
Don't you worry.
So you've got somebody to tellme about and I'm now going to
envision Nicole Kidmaninhabiting the role.
That's right.
No matter what happens.
Let's do it.
Let's have a fabulous Amazing.
Um, hi Kara.
Hi Vicki.
How are you?
I am well, thank you.
(02:20):
It is summer, like propersummer.
How are you enjoying the heat?
I'm okay with it.
I'm all, I'm all right.
This is like.
I find this time of day like the'cause like everything's hot at
this time of day whilst it's inthe midday.
I'm a bit like, this is nice.
The sun's up.
The air's cool.
I'm good.
But like, I feel like this timeI could be wrong.
(02:43):
It's all like cooked up.
I kind of have, I, I think I'vegot the opposite where it gets
to this point and I can feel itstarting to turn and I'm like,
okay, whew.
We made it.
It's gonna start dropping now.
And it doesn't necessarily, butI believe that it will placebo,
like Charlie Brown trying tokick that football, I always
believe live in hope so.
Would you like to hear a storyYes, I certainly would.
(03:06):
Great.
It is one actually Asher friendof the show, lovely Asher.
like, you know what?
I will if you want me to I'll,and um, oh yeah, the babe, she's
always on the lookout for superduper.
here we go.
Little checkmate.
(03:26):
Also, they thought Nona GarrinPhilly, a true grandma had
dedicated her life to conqueringthe chess But when Netflix, the
Queen's gambit, made acalculated move that tore down
this hard for battled legacywith a single line, the board
was set for a new kind ofbattle.
(03:47):
Nona Had so once again, drum ofresilience, psychological
prowess, and hard raw tactics.
Feel the tension, hear the furyas we uncover the true story of
a real chess queen.
Betrayed, oh my God.
So this is like bang up to dateif you're pulling the queen's
gambit into things.
That's, yeah.
(04:08):
So we are doing, Nina was bornin 1941.
So from there, back up stillalive today.
But her story a really good one'cause it's about like a male So
lots of sources today, lots ofchess based sources.
So chess based.com, the europeanchase academy.com.
(04:30):
Um, there's lots of interviewsthere.
World chess a Forbes trendsanalysis.
I've whacked in there.
Britannica, a brilliant YouTubeactually video Chess Hall of
Fame, a Vanity Fair article.
There's lots going on there.
Nana was born in a small town inwestern Georgia.
(04:52):
That's where we're going.
Not the and it was called ZZDidi, is a great name.
And this was in 1941.
This country is very central tochess and the chess world, which
I didn't realize at and it hasproduced loads and loads of
chess masters throughout,history, which is very And, um,
(05:14):
Nona or Nona, um, grew up there.
I'm gonna say Nona'cause there'snot two Ns.
It's So, she had four olderbrothers and uh, obviously
played with them everywhere.
brother, she had big family,lots of Um, this, I think made
(05:34):
her competitive.
of notes and in particular thisreally helped shape her I've got
a little directly Nona We werereally connected and we did a
lot of things together.
We made an improvised table fortable tennis.
(05:54):
We loved to play billiards andfootball also, and they placed
me a girl to be a goalkeeper.
We also really enjoyed playingchess.
So a couple of things to pickout there.
One, the, lots of sport, lots ofgames, which I'm not but also
(06:16):
the fact that, they placed herin goal'cause she was a girl.
So even from that young a girl.
not in in a girl.
Oh.
Oh gosh, I took that sodifferently.
I thought she was sort of, whatdid I thought she was saying?
Even though I'm a girl and theycould have like thought, what
(06:38):
have you got to offer?
They put me in goal, which is asuper important role.
Oh my gosh.
We've talked before about howI'm too naive for this world.
This is the fact.
The third conversation me andKara have had about this is that
I am absolutely the cynic of theworld.
And then you come in with yourbright happiness and your
optimism.
(06:59):
Oh my delusional.
My delusional tendencies.
And you protect me from, no, Idon't think I do.
I think if anything you're like,where's your heart, Vicky, find
it.
I think between us, we make afunctional human being.
So, yeah, so chess, sorry,chess, we went off on a bit of
(07:20):
a, so when she was five or six,she started to play chess,
basically.
So chess, do you know what chessis?
Like, how it works?
I, I do know the rules.
Do you I know how the piecesmove.
Yeah.
It's not my kind of game.
Um, it involves.
Anyway, I'm hoping that you'llexplain.
Oh, I don't know anything.
(07:40):
I understand that there's ablack team and a white team and
they try and knock each Um, sochess actually originated, well,
it originated in India in thecentury, and at the time it chat
Ranga.
But this is disputed because thesixth century is a long time
ago.
Um, but also because pieceshave, chess pieces have been
(08:04):
found in Russia, central Asia asfar as Pakistan.
And, at the time they were like,oh, this is a chess piece.
But it's actually thought now tobe linked around different some
as complex as having over ahundred squares on the grid.
Oh my God.
See, the reason I don't playchess is because you have to.
(08:25):
Plan tactics and plan set playsout ahead of you to get any
success.
And that's not how my brainworks.
I can't retain things and holdonto them for, you know, two,
three turns down the line.
Mm-hmm.
And that's with whatever it is,32, I don't know how many
squares a chessboard, but itcertainly isn't a hundred.
That's nuts.
I know.
(08:45):
And have you seen the chesswhere it's like on three levels
and you No thank you.
Only on Star Trek and I'm like,nah, I'm just, I'll be in the
hollow suite.
Just leave it, leave you, leaveyou guys to it.
That's fine.
Yeah.
Um, but what I did take fromthat is that board games are,
isn't that amazing that likehundreds and board games was
(09:09):
around and they're still aroundtoday.
And I kind of love that.
We spoke about it before, didn'twe?
With, Luke, but these threadsum, human.
Thread through outside.
Yeah.
You could kind of travel back tothe seventh century and sit down
and some, some person from theseventh century could kick mys
(09:29):
at chest.
Yeah.
And it's totally identifiable.
I love it.
That's wild.
Yeah.
And not only that, but today itis an industry worth$15.83
billion worldwide.
It is a booming industry.
And that is, are you just chessor board games in general?
Board games in general.
(09:50):
Like any kind of board game,it's like, holy cow, this is
more serious than I thought.
Yeah.
Um, but chess is a big part ofthat.
It is.
When you see, when you thinkboard games, your top Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's actually, you know,it's been growing year on year,
especially since COVID, which Ifind It's interesting.
(10:11):
So like you say.
Chess needs certain skills andis very particularly at elite
level.
So you're talking calculations,thinking as well as strategic
thinking, pattern recognition,which is what you're saying,
like three moves ahead.
(10:32):
And also like psychological, alot of it is just psyching out
your opponent as it is with lotsof sports.
Right.
But it is like getting into Doyou think that they are skills
that can be taught, or do youthink that they're inherent
skills that you can just buildon if you happen to be that kind
of person?
(10:52):
I think, Nona talks about that alittle bit, like, I think Oh,
cool.
Um, us.
I think she does.
Mm-hmm.
But like, I, I a bit of both,there must be some raw but I
think the classic playbooklearn, but then we were just
(11:13):
saying two minutes ago that wecould never learn that.
'cause our brains are wired thatway.
So I dunno.
So, for, no, no.
There were two important herlife that led tr chess.
One was that her older brotherwas actually really good at
chess and he was the best playerin town.
(11:33):
So the town of Zig Didi.
And, he was gonna partake in aGeorgian championship.
And she learned how to playchess through him.
But the second is that when shewas about 11 or 12, they
traveled um, to to bill ii,T-B-I-L-I-S-I.
(11:58):
Because her brother was playingin this big team championship,
We dunno why.
I couldn't but they'd heard onthe grapevine that, um, oh, his
younger sister's here and she'squite good.
We've seen her, she's quite, Andthat was her in basically to the
championships.
Oh my gosh.
So not only did just fluked intoit.
(12:19):
Yeah, because, because she was agirl, they were like, it'd be
great to have a girl on the, soshe played some games, what's on
the train there?
So she was and she won a lotlike even on the train on the
way there, she was smashing it.
And then overall in thecompetition, the became, came in
at fifth place, which was quitea good achievement because z
(12:42):
Didi is a very small town andthis was like a That is very
impressive.
Yeah.
And while she was there, sheacknowledges, that she did play
well and actually one of themost important trainers and is
known as the father Tang Castle,ledes.
(13:07):
Um, he noticed no a playing andkind of.
Took note of her and after,looked up her parents I've seen
your academy her parents didn'tsay yes straight away.
She notes that they finallyagreed.
It took a lot, you know.
Aww.
(13:28):
Um, but they did.
They said, alright, go and trainwith him.
And she became officially underTung's wing in just trying to
figure out how old she would'vebeen.
1954.
So she would've been what, 14?
Yeah.
Like proper Yeah.
No wonder her parents werehesitant though to be Of course.
(13:50):
Like, here's my kid.
Good luck, everybody.
This, this runs a man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a big jump of trust.
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
But they did, they supportedher, which is very important.
And it paid off really quickly.
So as quickly as the followingyear, she was already winning in
most of the tournaments that sheplayed.
(14:12):
Like she was good.
Right.
And then the following year in1956, she won the semi-final of
the Women's Soviet UnionChampionship.
So we're going bigger andbigger.
We've not just in Georgia.
Yeah.
Now we're doing the SovietUnion.
Um, and it says there that shewas around 14 at that time.
Um, my gosh.
I know.
I've popped in a quote hereabout how she, not how she felt
(14:34):
at that time, but how she felt,I guess, growing up that
sporting arena and herreflections are nowadays.
Girls might be born and raised alittle differently without that
inclination towards sport andtowards competition.
(14:55):
And this is something that needsto be developed.
I think my upbringing supportedmy trajectory.
So she's there reflecting on howher, upbringing allowed her to
be this and allowed her toexercise these things that
aren't naturally feminine, and,much she values that later on.
(15:19):
Oh, I've also added in the notesin this interview, made me
laugh.
It was one of the questions thatthe interview asked Nona, and I
dunno if it's funny because it'sbeen translated into English,
I'm not sure, but this is,imagine like, a dominant idol
like this is like the Beyonce ofchess you're interviewing, like
(15:40):
this is a big deal and this isthe question.
But you are, you are asking herwho are, in your opinion, the
greatest and most importantplayers in the history of chess
since you've practically knownall of them since the Second
World War.
Oh my God.
Oh my calm, calm down mate.
That is a gatekeeping question.
(16:01):
That's the, you are wearing aband T-shirt.
Oh yeah.
What are their five best songs?
And what I've heard is, as awoman, your response is supposed
to be Oh yeah.
Named five Women who Trust You.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Like don't step up to me withyour Second World War on chess
player question.
I know.
No need to attack the age inthat question at all, since you
(16:23):
practically knew everyone fromthe beginning of time.
That confrontational as we'rereading it to be because it does
sound a little rude, ational.
It really does.
It really, it really made melaugh as I was reading the
interview anyway.
Anyway.
She talks a little bit about hertraining and what she went
through and as part of thetraining of dresses, learning
(16:43):
from others, what their gamesare, what their tactics are, and
she talks about one of her roleOral, who is a La Vian chess
player who, was very good,because she calls his way of,
um, a master of tactics.
He's so distinguished in what hedoes and she really used that.
She analyzed what he was doingand she wanted to be like him.
(17:04):
Basically.
She wanted to be the way heplayed.
Um, and I, when I read that, itkind of reminded me of, but do
you watch Gladiators?
The TV show?
I, I have been known to watch itfrom time to time.
I freaking love Gladiators TVshow.
And what you reminded me of wasthose kids in the crowd with the
banners that are like, I loveyou, fury.
And you just know that in like15 years they're gonna be, you
(17:27):
know, there's gonna be one ofthem that is gonna be like it
all started.
Oh, that's so cute.
I know.
It's one of my favorite thingsabout Gladia is that they
really, really like lovely,excited kids and the crowd just
like crying'cause they're there.
She also acknowledges that,there's lots of different types
of chess players.
Like, just because you're not anelite level doesn't mean that
(17:49):
you haven't got somethingspecial as a chess player
because they all have differentways of playing the game.
It's kind of like a bit like alanguage, and these can be very
influential.
It is particularly, it's, it's areally important lesson, I
guess, in looking outside of thebox just like pulling on open to
(18:10):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and she talks a lot about,um, what it takes to be a chess
this is from Nona Success ismade up of many components.
Even if just one is missing, youwill not become a very
successful chess player.
These components include talentand hard work, but also a very
(18:33):
good nervous system.
Nerves of steel, um, right.
We are talking psychological tobe strong, you in good health.
um, competitive and have thisdrive.
And she was particularly notedin her playing as being fierce,
bold, being aggressive ofplaying, which are not
(18:56):
associated with female normallyit was quite a, um, at the time
in the fifties and sixties itwas quite a curve ball.
It was quite a shock, to theindustry, so it was these nerves
of steel dedication and talent,which meant that quite quickly.
So within six years, sheactually the winner of the
(19:17):
Women's Candidates Tournament inSo this is a tournament that
actually eligible to go to theWorld right.
The of Chess.
Oh.
So we started like earlyfifties.
We're now in when she was a kidand now like what?
She's in her early and, she'sgoing to quite exhausting.
(19:39):
Wow.
That's amazing.
So, because she's won thistournament, she takes on, the
match of challenging the currentchampion, Elsa Veta Kova, who
was the reigning world championSo she's like queen bee and they
have a match.
(19:59):
I learned a lot about chess whenI was doing this the match
lasted so long, it lasted twomonths.
Right.
Which is apparently what, thisis normal apparently for chess.
This is like, I didn't realizeit was such a prolonged affair.
I was thinking afternoon.
But it, it is really, I can'teven handle cricket.
'cause it like goes on for acouple of hours and you get, you
(20:19):
get food.
Like I No, you get, Yeah, so itlasted 11 games through
September and October of thatyear.
And there was lots of, Sessions'cause it was 11 games and
actually, known as favoritefootball team actually got wind
of what was happening and cameto support her for one, is so
(20:41):
nice.
Oh, that is gorgeous.
That is like the gladiatorswatching you play.
Like it's so cool.
That's so wholesome, isn't it?
How sweet is that?
Um, so despite her best efforts,ELs Cavita, the current reigning
champion was unable to known asaggressive play.
The game was adjourned on theevening, which is quite to be
(21:05):
resumed the but ELs Cavitaactually conceded later that
night.
my God, called in and was like,I can't do it.
So, that meant that over the 11games there was seven victories,
four draws, which meant thatNona became champion, of the
tournament of the world'swomen's chess That, that's
(21:27):
pretty exciting to become to, toget to the point of mastery
after like six years of.
Training and competitioncombined is extraordinary.
I mean, that is such a fast likeaccelerator.
And she's to the top Perth.
(21:47):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
She's like, and this is like,like you say, the top, this is,
you're at the top of themountain.
You're like, you you aredominating.
Right.
And she was the fifth personever to hold that title, which
shows how rare it is to have andtake it.
Right.
So fifth of all time.
Yeah.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
(22:08):
That like over the entire timeit had been held, someone
retained it for so long thatonly five people including her.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Okay.
And I think the other reason forthat is because the
championships aren't annual.
They're like every two or somany and a beat years.
Well, that happens in the years.
It's taken like months then.
Yeah.
Fair play.
(22:28):
They need a little time to resetand refresh.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
But also it doesn't take awayfrom the fact either that
sounded like I was disparaging.
It, it, it doesn't take awayfrom the fact it's still very
rare.
She then went on to win theWomen's World Championship four
more times.
So in terms of like legacy, thatis pretty strong, right?
(22:50):
Her era basically is known inthe Women Worlds Championships
as the Soviet dominated era.
So there was like a period ofhistory where it was also women
who were smashing chess atchess.
And then in the nineties it kindof flicked to China and it has
been China based ever since.
(23:11):
And that is mainly because Nonatook a step back, right?
So.
She really led the way for notjust her, but for so many women
in the chess world, which isquite Um, nowadays the
championship is, um, like Isaid, dominated by China, um,
but also is a knockout format.
(23:32):
But in during known as time, itwas a match format and it used
to be held in Moscow.
Three of the four times that shewon it was against Ella Kushner,
and one of them was against afellow Georgian called Nana
Alexandria, who actually had thesame mentor.
So you know, the mentor thatpicked her out.
Oh.
So she came from the samepipeline, cool.
(23:54):
That must have been reallyinteresting because they might
have shared some common tacticsand, you know, perspective just
through, and, you know, shewould know, Nana would know all
of Nona's.
Ways of thinking.
I think so.
And also what a moment forGeorgia women battling it out
(24:18):
like elite level.
That's true.
The country wins no matter what.
Right?
Absolutely.
It's, it's like, yeah, that'scool.
Culturally,, it was a massivemoment for Georgia.
It was really widely followed.
And it was known as kind of theintellectual revolution for
Georgian women, which was quitecool.
It was much like, you know, um,when the England lioness one in
(24:39):
2022, it was kind of that kindof following, like it hadn't
really had a following and thensuddenly it was like, boom, here
we go.
Many women in Georgia took upchess afterwards and it like I
said, Georgia became one of themost prominent chess producing.
Many different masters over thecareer.
Like I said, Soviet, period ofand Nona had a great run.
(25:03):
She had a really long run as,master of women's chess.
It's the second longest reigningin history a woman at that
level.
And, most importantly, she wasalso successful when competing
in tournaments that weretraditionally played by men.
So she won against men many,many times.
(25:25):
For example, at the HastingsChallenges Tournament in the
sixties.
It wasn't like men are betterthe same.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm ignorant to the sportin general, so this might be an
ignorant question, but off thetop of my head.
Why is it segregated?
Like what is going on there?
(25:46):
The pieces aren't heavier.
Like what, what's happening?
In the research it did come up alittle bit, um, and oh, that she
said it's like lots of differentreasons.
There's not like one overarchingcut out, but it was lots of,
little reasons, particularlywhen at this level.
(26:06):
Um, so it was funding, it was,education.
It was women's stereotypes, beat home, it was all this stuff.
And, it is a sport of the day.
And I of that was my sport, justas good as segregated, you know
what I mean?
Yeah.
So I think maybe it was a bit ofthat, from what I briefly read
(26:28):
about it.
Thank you that, yeah, that, thatdoes make some kind of
historical sense, but you'recompletely with it.
Of course.
It, of course, it is not aphysical sport, isn't it?
And that's the difference.
This leads us on to 1977.
At the Lone Pine InternationalTournament where she had the
highest performance ratingamongst 48 players, and during
(26:52):
the four grand Masters duringthis tournament, right, which
included men, right?
And it ended up being a four-waytie.
That's how competitive it was.
They couldn't even find a winnerat the end.
They had a tie four ways.
So they all win basically.
And this meant that she was thefirst woman have this type of
(27:17):
victory never before had a womanwon a men's Amazing.
That is history right there.
That is like mic drop, so it wasthis tournament that led fi,
which is like the internationalchess body, like Feder, like
fifa.
But for chess, awarded her thehighest honor in chess, which a
(27:40):
chess Grand Master.
Oh yeah.
That's amazing.
That's immense.
Even I know what that is.
Yeah.
So this is the highest titleawarded by Fight.
I'm Short of World Champion,which is, such a extraordinary
feat.
They don't just give out.
It demands immense talent,relentless dedication, years of
(28:03):
vigorous study and never beforehad a woman held that title like
she was the first, which is veryexciting.
Good.
And she just referenced in laterinterviews that her performance
of that Lone Pine tournament andsubsequently Master is one of
her greatest she's so proud ofit.
(28:23):
And remember, this is a timewhere women, were barely
acknowledged in sport.
So go, go Nona.
She's brilliant.
Outstanding.
And on top of that, she casuallybecame an Olympian at the same
time.
So she, at this time chess wasin the Olympics and she won 10
team gold medals over 11different competitions.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
(28:44):
With your 10 gold medals.
Um mm-hmm.
And then she ended up dominatingthe chess world for pretty much
half a century.
Right?
Like her, because she started soyoung and she's still alive to
date, like she's had so far.
And her most recent wins were, Ithink 2022.
Like really up to date.
She takes parts in seniortournaments now, and is winning,
(29:07):
you know, Um, she loves it.
It's a passion.
So ultimately I think we can sayhands down a lot of success.
She's had a lot.
Yeah, she's, she's done allright out of it.
She's like, world class.
You literally can't do better.
There's, there's nowhere to gofrom there.
You have absolutely reached thepeak.
(29:30):
percent.
Um, is she.
Um, she references that she willplay chess for as long as she
can, unless her mind doesn'tallow her to do so.
She summarizes that chess has nonationality and it's just one
universe.
And that is the universe ofchess and it brings so much
positive energy and shereferences that it'll actually
(29:53):
make you live longer.
So I dunno what that says aboutus, but yeah.
Oh yeah, we better badass.
You better find somethingalternative or get on it.
We need to get on the chesttraining.
We need to do something.
So all this amazing success andthen what happens is that
Hollywood comes a knocking, um,well, they kind of come a
(30:14):
knocking.
Is Netflix Hollywood?
I think Netflix is a little bitright?
Yeah, yeah.
We'll say yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the Netflix actually,, pickup a book, um, and it's a novel
by Walter Te Tevis called theQueen's Gambit, and they end up
making a mini series about itthat debuted on Netflix in 2020.
(30:37):
It's a chess focus story.
It was huge because it waslockdown and nobody had anything
better to do.
Set at the time Nona was playingand dominating, as we've just
discovered.
And it focuses on a fictionalcharacter, a teenage prodigy
called Beth.
It is not based on Nona.
It's really important to know.
(30:57):
Beth enters and then rises inthe chess world.
And again, this is a huge thingfor the game of chess.
Like this is a good story forchess, right?
That you've got thismultimillion blockbuster show
coming out, focusing on yourindustry.
Focusing a girl with really highquality production.
It actually ended up winningEmmy's.
(31:18):
I didn't realize.
Really good.
And um.
I was gonna say, guess how manyhouseholds watched it?
But you've got the notes, sothat would be cheating.
Oh, was it?
How many households was it?
62 million.
Damn right.
62 million.
And households, that's not likethere's multiple people.
Individuals, yeah.
(31:39):
Often in households.
So a big deal so you canunderstand on as utter dismay
when the show drops an absolutebomb.
Right.
Which is summed up by this quotefrom Vanity Fair.
A chess commentator compares thefictional Harmon to real life.
(31:59):
Karin Vli.
Colleen Karin Vli the femaleworld champion, and saying that
she has never faced men beforepanning to a character in the
audience who resembles KarinVli.
And what have we learned, Kara,She was a world champion, a
grand, not a female grandmaster.
(32:21):
She was a grandma who had infact played against men as well
as women.
Yeah.
Across decades of a career.
Well, at that point, yeah, therewere no shortcomings in her
achievement.
What the hell?
It's just a lie.
Lie.
It's a bare face and lie thatNetflix pops in there and then
spread to 62 million households.
(32:43):
Right.
And not only did Nana play men,just like I said, she played at
least 59 of them and oftensimultaneously in a game.
Apparently there's types ofgames where you can play lots of
people at the same time.
She not only played them, butplayed them all at the same
time.
Uh, why did they need to eveninvolve that?
(33:03):
It's so frustrating as a moveand like this is a legacy that
they are erasing.
This is decades of hard work,study resilience, shattering
class ceilings, climbingladders, that in very difficult
circumstances, can you imagine,I'm not being funny, but out of
those 59 men, I imagine some ofthem were a little bit sexist
(33:27):
when you're playing them interms of like the psychological
resilience.
Right.
It'd be statistically speaking,likely.
Very likely.
Likely.
It's likely that, you know, shewent up against so much to get
to where she was, and thenNetflix had the audacity to
then, you know, be sexist backand absolutely belittle what her
(33:50):
achievements I know the anger.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not okay.
It's not thing, it's well oflike, okay.
Hitting women against otherwomen and kind of, yeah, well
you didn't really do it properly'cause you didn't fight with a
guy.
It's like, but what she didthough, it sucks.
And I watched the Queen'sgambit.
(34:11):
I don't know if you did.
I did.
Yeah.
I was one of the 62 million.
Our household is in that numbertwo, I don't think that it
would've diminished Beth's storyif other women had had success
against male competitors.
No.
Right.
She was a naive player wholearned through she hard work,
(34:33):
despite massive psychologicaland addiction issues.
That story arc works withoutgoing and, uh, she's better than
these other chicks like on man.
Annoying.
It's just the worst.
It's absolutely the worst.
So what does Nona do?
She's like, if this is whatyou're gonna do, I'm not going
down without a fight.
(34:53):
Which is absolutely consistentwith her life's work.
Consistent to her personality.
Yeah.
Of all the people to mess with.
What, what are you doing?
Yeah.
It's not a grand master atchess.
So she filed a$5 million lawsuitagainst Netflix and which is, if
you think about cost per script,and that is one line in the
(35:14):
script, Netflix really screwedup.
That is an expensive line Right.
And she claimed that thestatement, rightfully so, it was
grossly sexist Um, so she putthis in Netflix initially, were
like, no way, son.
Like, absolutely not.
Their defense was the, it was awork of fiction and the, they
(35:35):
should actually be protected bythe free speech principles of
the country, And they alsoclaimed that it was part of a
fictional character's dialogueand not an objective statement
of fact.
I am sorry if anyone is gonnabe, if you trust anyone in a
sporting arena to give you fact.
It is the commentator, it is theperson.
(35:55):
You pick the wrong character.
If that was the case, um,ultimately Netflix settled out
of court, um, amount of money.
I think that just shows thatthey conceded, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
But what this does show, thisfinal twist of the story, what
this does show is that appswomen, no matter how successful
(36:18):
you are, what industry you are,in what level of game you are
playing, you cannot let yourguard down.
You need to protect yourself.
Against every, not against, butfor you need to protect that
thing that you've built and beproud of it because people will
belittle you.
This is 2022.
This happened in, right?
(36:39):
Yeah.
People will belittle you andyour achievements and you have
to surround yourself with thepeople who build you up, who
give you energy, who build upyour self-worth.
So you are never torn down.
Don't let people like this tearyou down.
Surround yourself with positiveLet no one absolutely no one
take your achievements away.
Especially a billion dollarcorporation.
(37:02):
Jesus Christ.
So I think that is an absolutelyamazing ending of the, no, I'm
not taking And if there's alesson to learn from Nona, it is
that, and you know, that's why Iwanted the table I I love it.
(37:22):
Thank you so much.
What an interesting person andhow foolish of them to, they
could have just not done thatone line.
They could have not cast thatperson who looked like her.
Yeah.
What, why, why would they godown that road?
Mm-hmm.
And the fact that she did notstand for it is inspir
(37:44):
inspiring.
Yeah.
Go Her is right.
Yeah.
All right.
All right.
I'm riled up now.
It made me so angry.
Clearly when you settle outtacourt, that tells a story,
doesn't it?
And also, why would she careabout your Doesn't make, it
Doesn't make any sense.
I think, yeah.
(38:04):
Your first Amendment rightsdon't entitle you to lie about
someone you know substantially.
And yeah, talk, talk rubbishabout their career.
So, you know, turns out.
So that is the story of NonaGvi.
Thank you ever so much.
Very interesting.
Thank you.
audio2663295054 (38:29):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
And then this book is called Other Parents by
Sarah Stave, and it's about likesmall town gossip and secrets
and it, it's a novel, I'mguessing, not a Yes, not a bio.
Oh, it's got a little bit It'sby the lady who, oh, Leanne
Moriarty.
It's got that kind of feel toit.
(00:29):
I think.
You know, she did Nine PerfectStrangers and what's the other
one where there was a bike.
Oh.
I'm not sure on that one.
That's really poor plot.
My mom would know.
She's, she would know.
Ellen would know, but I've, Ijust watched the BBC adaptation
of the last anniversary, whichapparently is one of hers.
(00:51):
And you know, Nicole Kidman wasin Nine Perfect Strangers.
Mm-hmm.
She produced this one.
So Nicole Kidman is God not init, and that's on, but she
produced it.
And I thought it was absolutelysmashing, like really gripping
and not, not stupid.
Lots of sex, which I did notexpect.
Nicole Kidman loves the Shelives a She's, yeah.
(01:14):
Can't get enough of it.
That's her directorialrequirement.
How much?
Yeah, I think cha, regardless ofthe situation, it could be like
MI five or it could be a smalltown drama.
She's on it.
She's like, yeah, it's gotta,you know what, this needs naked
bottoms.
It's just, that's what you need.
It's says things about her lifetoo, doesn't it?
Because if she's like, wellthis, she's fulfilled to really
(01:37):
hit the realism.
We need some shagging in this,uh, truck stop.
Yeah.
Or whatever it might be.
She's just, that's the lifeshe's living.
Um.
You know what?
She would play very well.
Our protagonist she would sexthat up.
There's no sex in the story, butshe would sex it up.
(02:00):
She'd add it in there, she'dfind it.
Don't you worry.
So you've got somebody to tellme about and I'm now going to
envision Nicole Kidmaninhabiting the role.
That's right.
No matter what happens.
Let's do it.
Let's have a fabulous Amazing.
Um, hi Kara.
Hi Vicki.
How are you?
I am well, thank you.
(02:20):
It is summer, like propersummer.
How are you enjoying the heat?
I'm okay with it.
I'm all, I'm all right.
This is like.
I find this time of day like the'cause like everything's hot at
this time of day whilst it's inthe midday.
I'm a bit like, this is nice.
The sun's up.
The air's cool.
I'm good.
But like, I feel like this timeI could be wrong.
(02:43):
It's all like cooked up.
I kind of have, I, I think I'vegot the opposite where it gets
to this point and I can feel itstarting to turn and I'm like,
okay, whew.
We made it.
It's gonna start dropping now.
And it doesn't necessarily, butI believe that it will placebo,
like Charlie Brown trying tokick that football, I always
believe live in hope so.
Would you like to hear a storyYes, I certainly would.
(03:06):
Great.
It is one actually Asher friendof the show, lovely Asher.
like, you know what?
I will if you want me to I'll,and um, oh yeah, the babe, she's
always on the lookout for superduper.
here we go.
Little checkmate.
(03:26):
Also, they thought Nona GarrinPhilly, a true grandma had
dedicated her life to conqueringthe chess But when Netflix, the
Queen's gambit, made acalculated move that tore down
this hard for battled legacywith a single line, the board
was set for a new kind ofbattle.
(03:47):
Nona Had so once again, drum ofresilience, psychological
prowess, and hard raw tactics.
Feel the tension, hear the furyas we uncover the true story of
a real chess queen.
Betrayed, oh my God.
So this is like bang up to dateif you're pulling the queen's
gambit into things.
That's, yeah.
(04:08):
So we are doing, Nina was bornin 1941.
So from there, back up stillalive today.
But her story a really good one'cause it's about like a male So
lots of sources today, lots ofchess based sources.
So chess based.com, the europeanchase academy.com.
(04:30):
Um, there's lots of interviewsthere.
World chess a Forbes trendsanalysis.
I've whacked in there.
Britannica, a brilliant YouTubeactually video Chess Hall of
Fame, a Vanity Fair article.
There's lots going on there.
Nana was born in a small town inwestern Georgia.
(04:52):
That's where we're going.
Not the and it was called ZZDidi, is a great name.
And this was in 1941.
This country is very central tochess and the chess world, which
I didn't realize at and it hasproduced loads and loads of
chess masters throughout,history, which is very And, um,
(05:14):
Nona or Nona, um, grew up there.
I'm gonna say Nona'cause there'snot two Ns.
It's So, she had four olderbrothers and uh, obviously
played with them everywhere.
brother, she had big family,lots of Um, this, I think made
(05:34):
her competitive.
of notes and in particular thisreally helped shape her I've got
a little directly Nona We werereally connected and we did a
lot of things together.
We made an improvised table fortable tennis.
(05:54):
We loved to play billiards andfootball also, and they placed
me a girl to be a goalkeeper.
We also really enjoyed playingchess.
So a couple of things to pickout there.
One, the, lots of sport, lots ofgames, which I'm not but also
(06:16):
the fact that, they placed herin goal'cause she was a girl.
So even from that young a girl.
not in in a girl.
Oh.
Oh gosh, I took that sodifferently.
I thought she was sort of, whatdid I thought she was saying?
Even though I'm a girl and theycould have like thought, what
(06:38):
have you got to offer?
They put me in goal, which is asuper important role.
Oh my gosh.
We've talked before about howI'm too naive for this world.
This is the fact.
The third conversation me andKara have had about this is that
I am absolutely the cynic of theworld.
And then you come in with yourbright happiness and your
optimism.
(06:59):
Oh my delusional.
My delusional tendencies.
And you protect me from, no, Idon't think I do.
I think if anything you're like,where's your heart, Vicky, find
it.
I think between us, we make afunctional human being.
So, yeah, so chess, sorry,chess, we went off on a bit of
(07:20):
a, so when she was five or six,she started to play chess,
basically.
So chess, do you know what chessis?
Like, how it works?
I, I do know the rules.
Do you I know how the piecesmove.
Yeah.
It's not my kind of game.
Um, it involves.
Anyway, I'm hoping that you'llexplain.
Oh, I don't know anything.
(07:40):
I understand that there's ablack team and a white team and
they try and knock each Um, sochess actually originated, well,
it originated in India in thecentury, and at the time it chat
Ranga.
But this is disputed because thesixth century is a long time
ago.
Um, but also because pieceshave, chess pieces have been
(08:04):
found in Russia, central Asia asfar as Pakistan.
And, at the time they were like,oh, this is a chess piece.
But it's actually thought now tobe linked around different some
as complex as having over ahundred squares on the grid.
Oh my God.
See, the reason I don't playchess is because you have to.
(08:25):
Plan tactics and plan set playsout ahead of you to get any
success.
And that's not how my brainworks.
I can't retain things and holdonto them for, you know, two,
three turns down the line.
Mm-hmm.
And that's with whatever it is,32, I don't know how many
squares a chessboard, but itcertainly isn't a hundred.
That's nuts.
I know.
(08:45):
And have you seen the chesswhere it's like on three levels
and you No thank you.
Only on Star Trek and I'm like,nah, I'm just, I'll be in the
hollow suite.
Just leave it, leave you, leaveyou guys to it.
That's fine.
Yeah.
Um, but what I did take fromthat is that board games are,
isn't that amazing that likehundreds and board games was
(09:09):
around and they're still aroundtoday.
And I kind of love that.
We spoke about it before, didn'twe?
With, Luke, but these threadsum, human.
Thread through outside.
Yeah.
You could kind of travel back tothe seventh century and sit down
and some, some person from theseventh century could kick mys
(09:29):
at chest.
Yeah.
And it's totally identifiable.
I love it.
That's wild.
Yeah.
And not only that, but today itis an industry worth$15.83
billion worldwide.
It is a booming industry.
And that is, are you just chessor board games in general?
Board games in general.
(09:50):
Like any kind of board game,it's like, holy cow, this is
more serious than I thought.
Yeah.
Um, but chess is a big part ofthat.
It is.
When you see, when you thinkboard games, your top Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's actually, you know,it's been growing year on year,
especially since COVID, which Ifind It's interesting.
(10:11):
So like you say.
Chess needs certain skills andis very particularly at elite
level.
So you're talking calculations,thinking as well as strategic
thinking, pattern recognition,which is what you're saying,
like three moves ahead.
(10:32):
And also like psychological, alot of it is just psyching out
your opponent as it is with lotsof sports.
Right.
But it is like getting into Doyou think that they are skills
that can be taught, or do youthink that they're inherent
skills that you can just buildon if you happen to be that kind
of person?
(10:52):
I think, Nona talks about that alittle bit, like, I think Oh,
cool.
Um, us.
I think she does.
Mm-hmm.
But like, I, I a bit of both,there must be some raw but I
think the classic playbooklearn, but then we were just
(11:13):
saying two minutes ago that wecould never learn that.
'cause our brains are wired thatway.
So I dunno.
So, for, no, no.
There were two important herlife that led tr chess.
One was that her older brotherwas actually really good at
chess and he was the best playerin town.
(11:33):
So the town of Zig Didi.
And, he was gonna partake in aGeorgian championship.
And she learned how to playchess through him.
But the second is that when shewas about 11 or 12, they
traveled um, to to bill ii,T-B-I-L-I-S-I.
(11:58):
Because her brother was playingin this big team championship,
We dunno why.
I couldn't but they'd heard onthe grapevine that, um, oh, his
younger sister's here and she'squite good.
We've seen her, she's quite, Andthat was her in basically to the
championships.
Oh my gosh.
So not only did just fluked intoit.
(12:19):
Yeah, because, because she was agirl, they were like, it'd be
great to have a girl on the, soshe played some games, what's on
the train there?
So she was and she won a lotlike even on the train on the
way there, she was smashing it.
And then overall in thecompetition, the became, came in
at fifth place, which was quitea good achievement because z
(12:42):
Didi is a very small town andthis was like a That is very
impressive.
Yeah.
And while she was there, sheacknowledges, that she did play
well and actually one of themost important trainers and is
known as the father Tang Castle,ledes.
(13:07):
Um, he noticed no a playing andkind of.
Took note of her and after,looked up her parents I've seen
your academy her parents didn'tsay yes straight away.
She notes that they finallyagreed.
It took a lot, you know.
Aww.
(13:28):
Um, but they did.
They said, alright, go and trainwith him.
And she became officially underTung's wing in just trying to
figure out how old she would'vebeen.
1954.
So she would've been what, 14?
Yeah.
Like proper Yeah.
No wonder her parents werehesitant though to be Of course.
(13:50):
Like, here's my kid.
Good luck, everybody.
This, this runs a man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a big jump of trust.
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
But they did, they supportedher, which is very important.
And it paid off really quickly.
So as quickly as the followingyear, she was already winning in
most of the tournaments that sheplayed.
(14:12):
Like she was good.
Right.
And then the following year in1956, she won the semi-final of
the Women's Soviet UnionChampionship.
So we're going bigger andbigger.
We've not just in Georgia.
Yeah.
Now we're doing the SovietUnion.
Um, and it says there that shewas around 14 at that time.
Um, my gosh.
I know.
I've popped in a quote hereabout how she, not how she felt
(14:34):
at that time, but how she felt,I guess, growing up that
sporting arena and herreflections are nowadays.
Girls might be born and raised alittle differently without that
inclination towards sport andtowards competition.
(14:55):
And this is something that needsto be developed.
I think my upbringing supportedmy trajectory.
So she's there reflecting on howher, upbringing allowed her to
be this and allowed her toexercise these things that
aren't naturally feminine, and,much she values that later on.
(15:19):
Oh, I've also added in the notesin this interview, made me
laugh.
It was one of the questions thatthe interview asked Nona, and I
dunno if it's funny because it'sbeen translated into English,
I'm not sure, but this is,imagine like, a dominant idol
like this is like the Beyonce ofchess you're interviewing, like
(15:40):
this is a big deal and this isthe question.
But you are, you are asking herwho are, in your opinion, the
greatest and most importantplayers in the history of chess
since you've practically knownall of them since the Second
World War.
Oh my God.
Oh my calm, calm down mate.
That is a gatekeeping question.
(16:01):
That's the, you are wearing aband T-shirt.
Oh yeah.
What are their five best songs?
And what I've heard is, as awoman, your response is supposed
to be Oh yeah.
Named five Women who Trust You.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Like don't step up to me withyour Second World War on chess
player question.
I know.
No need to attack the age inthat question at all, since you
(16:23):
practically knew everyone fromthe beginning of time.
That confrontational as we'rereading it to be because it does
sound a little rude, ational.
It really does.
It really, it really made melaugh as I was reading the
interview anyway.
Anyway.
She talks a little bit about hertraining and what she went
through and as part of thetraining of dresses, learning
(16:43):
from others, what their gamesare, what their tactics are, and
she talks about one of her roleOral, who is a La Vian chess
player who, was very good,because she calls his way of,
um, a master of tactics.
He's so distinguished in what hedoes and she really used that.
She analyzed what he was doingand she wanted to be like him.
(17:04):
Basically.
She wanted to be the way heplayed.
Um, and I, when I read that, itkind of reminded me of, but do
you watch Gladiators?
The TV show?
I, I have been known to watch itfrom time to time.
I freaking love Gladiators TVshow.
And what you reminded me of wasthose kids in the crowd with the
banners that are like, I loveyou, fury.
And you just know that in like15 years they're gonna be, you
(17:27):
know, there's gonna be one ofthem that is gonna be like it
all started.
Oh, that's so cute.
I know.
It's one of my favorite thingsabout Gladia is that they
really, really like lovely,excited kids and the crowd just
like crying'cause they're there.
She also acknowledges that,there's lots of different types
of chess players.
Like, just because you're not anelite level doesn't mean that
(17:49):
you haven't got somethingspecial as a chess player
because they all have differentways of playing the game.
It's kind of like a bit like alanguage, and these can be very
influential.
It is particularly, it's, it's areally important lesson, I
guess, in looking outside of thebox just like pulling on open to
(18:10):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and she talks a lot about,um, what it takes to be a chess
this is from Nona Success ismade up of many components.
Even if just one is missing, youwill not become a very
successful chess player.
These components include talentand hard work, but also a very
(18:33):
good nervous system.
Nerves of steel, um, right.
We are talking psychological tobe strong, you in good health.
um, competitive and have thisdrive.
And she was particularly notedin her playing as being fierce,
bold, being aggressive ofplaying, which are not
(18:56):
associated with female normallyit was quite a, um, at the time
in the fifties and sixties itwas quite a curve ball.
It was quite a shock, to theindustry, so it was these nerves
of steel dedication and talent,which meant that quite quickly.
So within six years, sheactually the winner of the
(19:17):
Women's Candidates Tournament inSo this is a tournament that
actually eligible to go to theWorld right.
The of Chess.
Oh.
So we started like earlyfifties.
We're now in when she was a kidand now like what?
She's in her early and, she'sgoing to quite exhausting.
(19:39):
Wow.
That's amazing.
So, because she's won thistournament, she takes on, the
match of challenging the currentchampion, Elsa Veta Kova, who
was the reigning world championSo she's like queen bee and they
have a match.
(19:59):
I learned a lot about chess whenI was doing this the match
lasted so long, it lasted twomonths.
Right.
Which is apparently what, thisis normal apparently for chess.
This is like, I didn't realizeit was such a prolonged affair.
I was thinking afternoon.
But it, it is really, I can'teven handle cricket.
'cause it like goes on for acouple of hours and you get, you
(20:19):
get food.
Like I No, you get, Yeah, so itlasted 11 games through
September and October of thatyear.
And there was lots of, Sessions'cause it was 11 games and
actually, known as favoritefootball team actually got wind
of what was happening and cameto support her for one, is so
(20:41):
nice.
Oh, that is gorgeous.
That is like the gladiatorswatching you play.
Like it's so cool.
That's so wholesome, isn't it?
How sweet is that?
Um, so despite her best efforts,ELs Cavita, the current reigning
champion was unable to known asaggressive play.
The game was adjourned on theevening, which is quite to be
(21:05):
resumed the but ELs Cavitaactually conceded later that
night.
my God, called in and was like,I can't do it.
So, that meant that over the 11games there was seven victories,
four draws, which meant thatNona became champion, of the
tournament of the world'swomen's chess That, that's
(21:27):
pretty exciting to become to, toget to the point of mastery
after like six years of.
Training and competitioncombined is extraordinary.
I mean, that is such a fast likeaccelerator.
And she's to the top Perth.
(21:47):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
She's like, and this is like,like you say, the top, this is,
you're at the top of themountain.
You're like, you you aredominating.
Right.
And she was the fifth personever to hold that title, which
shows how rare it is to have andtake it.
Right.
So fifth of all time.
Yeah.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
(22:08):
That like over the entire timeit had been held, someone
retained it for so long thatonly five people including her.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Okay.
And I think the other reason forthat is because the
championships aren't annual.
They're like every two or somany and a beat years.
Well, that happens in the years.
It's taken like months then.
Yeah.
Fair play.
(22:28):
They need a little time to resetand refresh.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
But also it doesn't take awayfrom the fact either that
sounded like I was disparaging.
It, it, it doesn't take awayfrom the fact it's still very
rare.
She then went on to win theWomen's World Championship four
more times.
So in terms of like legacy, thatis pretty strong, right?
(22:50):
Her era basically is known inthe Women Worlds Championships
as the Soviet dominated era.
So there was like a period ofhistory where it was also women
who were smashing chess atchess.
And then in the nineties it kindof flicked to China and it has
been China based ever since.
(23:11):
And that is mainly because Nonatook a step back, right?
So.
She really led the way for notjust her, but for so many women
in the chess world, which isquite Um, nowadays the
championship is, um, like Isaid, dominated by China, um,
but also is a knockout format.
(23:32):
But in during known as time, itwas a match format and it used
to be held in Moscow.
Three of the four times that shewon it was against Ella Kushner,
and one of them was against afellow Georgian called Nana
Alexandria, who actually had thesame mentor.
So you know, the mentor thatpicked her out.
Oh.
So she came from the samepipeline, cool.
(23:54):
That must have been reallyinteresting because they might
have shared some common tacticsand, you know, perspective just
through, and, you know, shewould know, Nana would know all
of Nona's.
Ways of thinking.
I think so.
And also what a moment forGeorgia women battling it out
(24:18):
like elite level.
That's true.
The country wins no matter what.
Right?
Absolutely.
It's, it's like, yeah, that'scool.
Culturally,, it was a massivemoment for Georgia.
It was really widely followed.
And it was known as kind of theintellectual revolution for
Georgian women, which was quitecool.
It was much like, you know, um,when the England lioness one in
(24:39):
2022, it was kind of that kindof following, like it hadn't
really had a following and thensuddenly it was like, boom, here
we go.
Many women in Georgia took upchess afterwards and it like I
said, Georgia became one of themost prominent chess producing.
Many different masters over thecareer.
Like I said, Soviet, period ofand Nona had a great run.
(25:03):
She had a really long run as,master of women's chess.
It's the second longest reigningin history a woman at that
level.
And, most importantly, she wasalso successful when competing
in tournaments that weretraditionally played by men.
So she won against men many,many times.
(25:25):
For example, at the HastingsChallenges Tournament in the
sixties.
It wasn't like men are betterthe same.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm ignorant to the sportin general, so this might be an
ignorant question, but off thetop of my head.
Why is it segregated?
Like what is going on there?
(25:46):
The pieces aren't heavier.
Like what, what's happening?
In the research it did come up alittle bit, um, and oh, that she
said it's like lots of differentreasons.
There's not like one overarchingcut out, but it was lots of,
little reasons, particularlywhen at this level.
(26:06):
Um, so it was funding, it was,education.
It was women's stereotypes, beat home, it was all this stuff.
And, it is a sport of the day.
And I of that was my sport, justas good as segregated, you know
what I mean?
Yeah.
So I think maybe it was a bit ofthat, from what I briefly read
(26:28):
about it.
Thank you that, yeah, that, thatdoes make some kind of
historical sense, but you'recompletely with it.
Of course.
It, of course, it is not aphysical sport, isn't it?
And that's the difference.
This leads us on to 1977.
At the Lone Pine InternationalTournament where she had the
highest performance ratingamongst 48 players, and during
(26:52):
the four grand Masters duringthis tournament, right, which
included men, right?
And it ended up being a four-waytie.
That's how competitive it was.
They couldn't even find a winnerat the end.
They had a tie four ways.
So they all win basically.
And this meant that she was thefirst woman have this type of
(27:17):
victory never before had a womanwon a men's Amazing.
That is history right there.
That is like mic drop, so it wasthis tournament that led fi,
which is like the internationalchess body, like Feder, like
fifa.
But for chess, awarded her thehighest honor in chess, which a
(27:40):
chess Grand Master.
Oh yeah.
That's amazing.
That's immense.
Even I know what that is.
Yeah.
So this is the highest titleawarded by Fight.
I'm Short of World Champion,which is, such a extraordinary
feat.
They don't just give out.
It demands immense talent,relentless dedication, years of
(28:03):
vigorous study and never beforehad a woman held that title like
she was the first, which is veryexciting.
Good.
And she just referenced in laterinterviews that her performance
of that Lone Pine tournament andsubsequently Master is one of
her greatest she's so proud ofit.
(28:23):
And remember, this is a timewhere women, were barely
acknowledged in sport.
So go, go Nona.
She's brilliant.
Outstanding.
And on top of that, she casuallybecame an Olympian at the same
time.
So she, at this time chess wasin the Olympics and she won 10
team gold medals over 11different competitions.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
(28:44):
With your 10 gold medals.
Um mm-hmm.
And then she ended up dominatingthe chess world for pretty much
half a century.
Right?
Like her, because she started soyoung and she's still alive to
date, like she's had so far.
And her most recent wins were, Ithink 2022.
Like really up to date.
She takes parts in seniortournaments now, and is winning,
(29:07):
you know, Um, she loves it.
It's a passion.
So ultimately I think we can sayhands down a lot of success.
She's had a lot.
Yeah, she's, she's done allright out of it.
She's like, world class.
You literally can't do better.
There's, there's nowhere to gofrom there.
You have absolutely reached thepeak.
(29:30):
percent.
Um, is she.
Um, she references that she willplay chess for as long as she
can, unless her mind doesn'tallow her to do so.
She summarizes that chess has nonationality and it's just one
universe.
And that is the universe ofchess and it brings so much
positive energy and shereferences that it'll actually
(29:53):
make you live longer.
So I dunno what that says aboutus, but yeah.
Oh yeah, we better badass.
You better find somethingalternative or get on it.
We need to get on the chesttraining.
We need to do something.
So all this amazing success andthen what happens is that
Hollywood comes a knocking, um,well, they kind of come a
(30:14):
knocking.
Is Netflix Hollywood?
I think Netflix is a little bitright?
Yeah, yeah.
We'll say yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the Netflix actually,, pickup a book, um, and it's a novel
by Walter Te Tevis called theQueen's Gambit, and they end up
making a mini series about itthat debuted on Netflix in 2020.
(30:37):
It's a chess focus story.
It was huge because it waslockdown and nobody had anything
better to do.
Set at the time Nona was playingand dominating, as we've just
discovered.
And it focuses on a fictionalcharacter, a teenage prodigy
called Beth.
It is not based on Nona.
It's really important to know.
(30:57):
Beth enters and then rises inthe chess world.
And again, this is a huge thingfor the game of chess.
Like this is a good story forchess, right?
That you've got thismultimillion blockbuster show
coming out, focusing on yourindustry.
Focusing a girl with really highquality production.
It actually ended up winningEmmy's.
(31:18):
I didn't realize.
Really good.
And um.
I was gonna say, guess how manyhouseholds watched it?
But you've got the notes, sothat would be cheating.
Oh, was it?
How many households was it?
62 million.
Damn right.
62 million.
And households, that's not likethere's multiple people.
Individuals, yeah.
(31:39):
Often in households.
So a big deal so you canunderstand on as utter dismay
when the show drops an absolutebomb.
Right.
Which is summed up by this quotefrom Vanity Fair.
A chess commentator compares thefictional Harmon to real life.
(31:59):
Karin Vli.
Colleen Karin Vli the femaleworld champion, and saying that
she has never faced men beforepanning to a character in the
audience who resembles KarinVli.
And what have we learned, Kara,She was a world champion, a
grand, not a female grandmaster.
(32:21):
She was a grandma who had infact played against men as well
as women.
Yeah.
Across decades of a career.
Well, at that point, yeah, therewere no shortcomings in her
achievement.
What the hell?
It's just a lie.
Lie.
It's a bare face and lie thatNetflix pops in there and then
spread to 62 million households.
(32:43):
Right.
And not only did Nana play men,just like I said, she played at
least 59 of them and oftensimultaneously in a game.
Apparently there's types ofgames where you can play lots of
people at the same time.
She not only played them, butplayed them all at the same
time.
Uh, why did they need to eveninvolve that?
(33:03):
It's so frustrating as a moveand like this is a legacy that
they are erasing.
This is decades of hard work,study resilience, shattering
class ceilings, climbingladders, that in very difficult
circumstances, can you imagine,I'm not being funny, but out of
those 59 men, I imagine some ofthem were a little bit sexist
(33:27):
when you're playing them interms of like the psychological
resilience.
Right.
It'd be statistically speaking,likely.
Very likely.
Likely.
It's likely that, you know, shewent up against so much to get
to where she was, and thenNetflix had the audacity to
then, you know, be sexist backand absolutely belittle what her
(33:50):
achievements I know the anger.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not okay.
It's not thing, it's well oflike, okay.
Hitting women against otherwomen and kind of, yeah, well
you didn't really do it properly'cause you didn't fight with a
guy.
It's like, but what she didthough, it sucks.
And I watched the Queen'sgambit.
(34:11):
I don't know if you did.
I did.
Yeah.
I was one of the 62 million.
Our household is in that numbertwo, I don't think that it
would've diminished Beth's storyif other women had had success
against male competitors.
No.
Right.
She was a naive player wholearned through she hard work,
(34:33):
despite massive psychologicaland addiction issues.
That story arc works withoutgoing and, uh, she's better than
these other chicks like on man.
Annoying.
It's just the worst.
It's absolutely the worst.
So what does Nona do?
She's like, if this is whatyou're gonna do, I'm not going
down without a fight.
(34:53):
Which is absolutely consistentwith her life's work.
Consistent to her personality.
Yeah.
Of all the people to mess with.
What, what are you doing?
Yeah.
It's not a grand master atchess.
So she filed a$5 million lawsuitagainst Netflix and which is, if
you think about cost per script,and that is one line in the
(35:14):
script, Netflix really screwedup.
That is an expensive line Right.
And she claimed that thestatement, rightfully so, it was
grossly sexist Um, so she putthis in Netflix initially, were
like, no way, son.
Like, absolutely not.
Their defense was the, it was awork of fiction and the, they
(35:35):
should actually be protected bythe free speech principles of
the country, And they alsoclaimed that it was part of a
fictional character's dialogueand not an objective statement
of fact.
I am sorry if anyone is gonnabe, if you trust anyone in a
sporting arena to give you fact.
It is the commentator, it is theperson.
(35:55):
You pick the wrong character.
If that was the case, um,ultimately Netflix settled out
of court, um, amount of money.
I think that just shows thatthey conceded, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
But what this does show, thisfinal twist of the story, what
this does show is that appswomen, no matter how successful
(36:18):
you are, what industry you are,in what level of game you are
playing, you cannot let yourguard down.
You need to protect yourself.
Against every, not against, butfor you need to protect that
thing that you've built and beproud of it because people will
belittle you.
This is 2022.
This happened in, right?
(36:39):
Yeah.
People will belittle you andyour achievements and you have
to surround yourself with thepeople who build you up, who
give you energy, who build upyour self-worth.
So you are never torn down.
Don't let people like this tearyou down.
Surround yourself with positiveLet no one absolutely no one
take your achievements away.
Especially a billion dollarcorporation.
(37:02):
Jesus Christ.
So I think that is an absolutelyamazing ending of the, no, I'm
not taking And if there's alesson to learn from Nona, it is
that, and you know, that's why Iwanted the table I I love it.
(37:22):
Thank you so much.
What an interesting person andhow foolish of them to, they
could have just not done thatone line.
They could have not cast thatperson who looked like her.
Yeah.
What, why, why would they godown that road?
Mm-hmm.
And the fact that she did notstand for it is inspir
(37:44):
inspiring.
Yeah.
Go Her is right.
Yeah.
All right.
All right.
I'm riled up now.
It made me so angry.
Clearly when you settle outtacourt, that tells a story,
doesn't it?
And also, why would she careabout your Doesn't make, it
Doesn't make any sense.
I think, yeah.
(38:04):
Your first Amendment rightsdon't entitle you to lie about
someone you know substantially.
And yeah, talk, talk rubbishabout their career.
So, you know, turns out.
So that is the story of NonaGvi.
Thank you ever so much.
Very interesting.
Thank you.
audio2663295054 (38:29):
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