July 8, 2025 • 40 mins
The Untold Story of Betsy Cadwaladr: A Trailblazing Woman in History
Please note the sound quality takes a little hit throughout the guest speakers but the story is still incredible!
This episode dives deep into the life of Betsy Cadwaladr, an adventurous Welsh woman whose captivating life story was brought to the stage by the Her Story Theatre Company. Founders Adele Corder and Claire Drewitt discuss their theater company's mission to elevate women's narratives through original plays, focusing on their current production 'Daughter of Bala.' The episode explores Betsy's incredible journeys, her clash with Florence Nightingale, and her unapologetic pursuit of justice and compassion. It also touches on Her Story's research process and their next project about Mary Frost. Adele and Claire share insights on bringing history to life, the struggles and rewards of working in period costumes, and the importance of giving voice to women's stories that have long been overlooked.
00:00 Introduction and Greetings
01:01 Meet Our Guests: Adele Corder and Claire Drewitt
01:52 The Story of Betsy Kader
02:31 Founding Her Story Theater Company
05:50 Betsy Kader's Adventures and Achievements
09:25 Betsy Kader vs. Florence Nightingale
14:33 Betsy's Determination and Journey to Crimea
16:43 Betsy's Early Life and Global Travels
20:03 Betsy's Strong Moral Compass
21:25 Adventures and Travels
22:08 Journey to the Crimea
22:47 Challenges of Historical Costumes
24:50 Betsy's Cleanliness and Self-Respect
27:03 Exploring Other Historical Women
29:53 Theatrical Production Insights
31:35 Audience Engagement and Reactions
34:18 Betsy's Legacy and Recognition
36:14 Upcoming Performances and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1180914561 (00:08):
Okay.
So do we wanna just get straightinto it?
Yeah, if you, yeah, if you wouldlike to.
Okay.
So, um.
I will start by saying, hiVicki.
How are you today?
I'm good.
How are you doing?
Yeah, I'm good.
Thank you.
Although technical difficulties,if anybody looks today, looks at
(00:28):
video, you're not brand today.
Today.
So sad.
You've lost your I'm off brand.
I'm off brand and, uh, we'lllose sponsorship from the Velvet
Curtain Company, but oh my God,we're gonna have to push on.
Um, there our only income.
We are, I'm probably just makingmistakes because I'm giddy
because we have wonderfulguests.
(00:49):
Not, not one, but two, so if youwould like, I can do a little
intro to set the, set the scene.
Yes, please give me, yeah.
Sounds, yeah.
Okay.
So today we are very happy to bewelcoming Adele Corder and
Claire Drewitt, both of the herstory theater company and many
(01:12):
other things.
Um, her story is a group foundedin South Wales to explore the
lives of women in history andtoday through engaging theater
experience.
And they do this by writing.
And performing, original playswith a focus on entertainment
and elevating the narratives ofwomen.
(01:34):
You'll, you'll notice that I'mpulling these words directly
from your excellent websiteladies.
You are all about putting thesewomen center stage, so that just
aligns so much with what Vickiwanted to do with, she changed
history and I've been very gladto come along and help with.
Your, current touring productionis Daughter of Bala.
(01:57):
And,, to give it the prey that,again, I'm a shameless thief.
I've pulled this from the Glengoer workman's hall prey, where
they say it is the captivatinglife story of Betsy.
Kader, so we're going from herhumble beginnings in Wales to
her globe trotting escapades inservice.
(02:18):
And before we hear all aboutBetsy, I was hoping that we
could learn a little bit moreabout you, So, how are you guys
involved?
What is your part in, in thetheater troupe and in the play?
Well, I, I am a, a writer, um,so I'm a playwright.
And I, I was previously acopywriter and then I decided to
(02:40):
take a master's degree in, inscript writing.
So, um, yes, now I'm aplaywright, which is fantastic.
I love it.
It's lovely to explore thecreative avenues and I have
particular interest in writingwomen's stories..
And so I have, Claire, who wasmy wonderful friend and two
other lovely friends as well,Alison and Linda.
(03:00):
And we all got together anddecided we'd like to make
theater company to form atheater company to tell the
stories of women, which, I wouldwrite.
So.
So the first one that we cameacross was Betsy Kad Wall's
Story.
And, I'm also a performer anddirector, which,, I have been
for.
since I was really little as aperformer anyway.
(03:23):
And, and I've known Clairethrough community theater
production together as withLinda and Allison.
We just decided, let's go forit.
Let's make, um, let's make asmall touring theater company
and let's tour it to tellwomen's stories, especially
women, of a particular age.
Because we as performers, werealized that there weren't many
(03:44):
roles for women of our kind ofage and, we want those roles.
You know, we want these, thesestrong roles and these strong
women and we want women to bethe main protagonist.
And that was one of my mainambitions in my writing, to make
women the center of the storyand particularly an older woman
maybe at times.
That was my, that was myambition in writing the play to
(04:05):
begin with.
And then, and Claire wasabsolutely brilliant and that I
wrote it with Claire in mind toplay Betsy, and she is
absolutely an absolute starplaying Betsy.
Oh, I was so lucky to, befriendly with aal.
We've acted together and I'vedirected Adele, she's directed
me.
Um, for years now.
I've been performing since I wasprobably.
(04:26):
Kneehigh to a grasshopper, andit was just amazing to be able
to work with Ade in setting upthis theater company and
bringing Betsy to the stage.
And her story was absolutelyfantastic.
It's been, it's been really,really good fun and an amazing
chance to play an incrediblecharacter from history.
(04:46):
I loved it.
This is fascinating Absolute.
What Kaa said earlier aboutbeing giddy.
I definitely like, already I amlike, yes, this is fantastic.
And we were talking last week,weren't we?
Kaa about Nicole Kidman there'skind of this, not a dramatic
word, but there's um, there'sdefinitely more how did you,
(05:11):
whatever phrase you used?
Certain age?
Yeah, an age.
I didn't wanna, um, drag theGreg Wallace thing out, but
Yeah.
The, um, but no, that's, it's sothoughtful, it's just lots
threads that we don't normallyget to see and get to peek
behind like that.
(05:32):
And actually we've donewhatever, how many episodes like
35, something like that.
And we haven't yet gone toWales.
Very exciting.
Wow.
Yeah.
Amazing.
You're our first Well story.
So, um, yeah.
Yes.
I'd love to learn a little bitmore about Betsy, sharing.
Yeah.
Well, we, we were really amazedactually that her story hadn't
(05:54):
been told before in terms of asa theatrical production or film
or tv.
Really amazed because I read it,it's her autobiography.
She wrote it herself, but aghost writer with a ghost
writer, if you like.
So she calls it anautobiography, but she had this
amazing, friend who was ahistorian at the time called
Jane Williams.
And, she asked her to write itfor her because she was a lady
(06:17):
working class background, fromNorth Wales in ball and,, from
very, very humble beginnings.
And she knew that if this ladyhistorian wrote it for her, it
would be more believable.
And also Jane Williams inwriting this, autobiography as
she called it.
Researched all of the facts thatBetsy told her about her life,
(06:39):
which are totally incredible.
I mean, you'd read it and you'dthink that can't possibly have
happened.
She can't possibly have been atthe Battle of Waterloo.
She can't possibly have met abishop when she was traveling
around the world.
She can't possibly have gone toAustralia, literally.
Countries all over the world,south America, everywhere that
you can think of.
She went in her lifetime.
(06:59):
And you keep pinching yourselfas you turn each page and think,
no, this can't possibly be true.
But Jane Williams has actuallycross-checked all of the facts
and made sure that they weretrue.
Um.
And put little clips of evidencein the book as well, which is
really interesting.
'cause there are footnotes onevery single page giving
evidence that, um, you know,that these things most likely
(07:20):
did happen because they were, atthe time that Betsy was
traveling and that the peopleshe said she met, she even said
she met the Emperor of China.
Oh gosh.
Accidentally by accidentallywalking into a hall where he was
sitting on the floor smoking apipe, uh, because she was on an
adventure there at the time andshe was very adventurous and
just went exploring off byherself.
(07:41):
So she was an absolute.
Incredible character when, and Ijust read her and couldn't stop,
read the book, couldn't stopturning the pages.
And then, um, said to Claire andLinda Allison, we have got to
tell this story.
So the Battle of Waterloo islike 1815, isn't it?
So was she born 1700?
Born in seventeen, eighty nine.
89?
Yeah.
Born in 1789.
(08:03):
1789 in Ballor, to a family with16 children.
Yeah.
Wow.
And she's mostly known in Walestoday only as a name through one
of the house boards is namedafter her.
So there's the Betsy Cardwell,the House Board in North Wales,
but.
Nobody knows her story.
We found really researching withour audiences and everything
that they all pretty much to aman said afterwards, gosh, I
(08:26):
knew nothing about her.
All I knew was she's the name ofthe house board and it's been
incredible to learn somethingabout her.
Just to list the things that shedid.
She was a heck of a gal and shewas, you know, so feisty and
stood up for whales and forherself and for women and for
(08:47):
nurses, and was absolutely anincredible woman.
And for her to have been livingin that time as well, and to
have done it all in long skirtsand corsets is something else
entirely, you know.
You've touched on two things oneof the points that was made was
that she wasn't afraid to speakher mind to, to say how say it
(09:10):
like it was.
And that led to a particularconfrontation that was noted
with a famous, a famous figure,which was interesting for.
Us because we have coveredanother character in the past
who also had a run in with thisfigure.
So Betsy and FlorenceNightingale, got into it,, from
(09:30):
what I could see could you saymore about that?
Was that an example of her beingout there and just being put
into close quarters with someonewho didn't see things the way
she did?
Yes, I think it, it wasabsolutely, I think she, they
clashed, I think from thebeginning, partly because of
their backgrounds.
You know, Florence Nightingalewas an English lady, and, um,
(09:53):
Betsy was a Welsh working classwoman.
And, so they clashed on thatfront.
Betsy was very, determined tobreak the rules when it came to,
the Crimean War, and that's oneof the reasons why she wanted to
publish her book.
She wanted to tell the story ofthe Crimean War from her point
of view, and she really wantedto speak truth to power.
(10:14):
And she actually was reallycritical in her book of the
government and of their handlingof, um, the situation in the
Crimean war because, they sent,they had lots and lots of free
gifts that, the public haddonated.
For the soldiers, things like,food, food stuffs and, clothing
items.
Clothing.
Yep.
(10:34):
sheets, blankets.
Yep.
You know, very similar to peopletoday, sending stuff out to
water onn countries, you know,to help.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
But these, these supplies werenot allowed to be released to
the men without signatures from,a doctor and then military men
as well, so.
The doctors were just all toobusy.
There was hardly any doctorsthere.
And they were see, looking afterlike hundreds and hundreds of
(10:56):
patients and soldiers who werevery badly wounded, so they
didn't have time to be signingrequisitions and getting them
countersigned.
But Florence Nighting girl wasvery much, um, she was trying to
control the situation by thebook, and she, she had been sent
there to be in charge of thenurses and to be in charge of
all the supplies.
So she was trying to keepeverything under control,
whereas Betsy was saying.
(11:17):
Just let us go into the storerooms and grab these things that
we need and, you know, nevermindthe signatures.
And Florence was very muchfollowing the rules and was
like, no, no, we can't, we can'tpossibly do that.
It's, it has to all be doneproperly.
And, um, that's where theyclashed.
That was one of the things thatthey, they clashed over.
The other way that they majorlyclashed as well was that
(11:39):
battlefield and nurse thesoldiers in the Crimea.
Whereas Florence Nightingale wasmostly based in Scutari in
Turkey, which was about 300miles from where the men were
actually being injured.
And Betsy had a kind of,complained that the nurses
weren't allowed to go on thewards and help the men in the
hospitals Atari.
(11:59):
And she felt like she was beinguseless.
And so she, campaigned andfought with Florence Nightingale
to be sent out to Balaclava,actually to the Crimea so she
could nurse the soldiers there.
And I think when she did getthere as well, she just took
over and, got things going forthe men.
Got them, you know, turned herhorror at what she saw there
(12:22):
into action and got, you know,beds for the men.
Got them organized, started akitchen, started cooking, on
braziers for all the men, andmaking sure that they had a good
diet.
And then making friends withLord Raglan, who was very
supportive of her efforts inhelping the men up the front.
She was very actiony.
Very, yeah.
Just wanna get stick in and doit.
(12:43):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was, she was incrediblyfrustrated when she first got
set, got to the crime that shedidn't actually get there.
They kept her on a first, theysent her to, um, uh, they sent
to her house.
Yeah, it was Therapi, wasn't it?
It was the house, um, belongingto the local ambassador.
And they sent them there for aweek or two.
They kind of kept, kept themaway from the, for, even from
(13:05):
the Scutari base, um, for weekson end.
And she couldn't understand why.
She just wanted to get straightto the men and, and get to work
and help and nurse them.
And, um, she discovered laterthat it was because Florence
Nightingale didn't actually, um.
Want anymore nurses, she wentout with a group of 40 and she
didn't expect anymore.
She didn't have facilities foranymore.
(13:26):
She felt she didn't have abudget for anymore.
She didn't have anywhere to, to,um, oh my God.
Sort to sleep.
And, you know, so she was, shewas in a, she was really angry
apparently when she realizedthat this extra party of nurses
had been sent and she didn'tknow how she was gonna cope.
With that because she, she wasbarely coping.
I think with having 40, it wastoo much,, because of the
situation there and theconditions which were
(13:48):
horrendous.
And, yeah, she was horrified athaving to cope with more nurses.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, yeah, so Betsy didn'tdiscover that until.
She actually arrived later afterpetitioning and petitioning.
The lady who was kind of lookingafter them all and saying, we
want to go, we want to go.
And she was getting very, veryfrustrated and angry, her age in
order to get there as well, Ithink.
(14:10):
Incredible.
She said that she was 55 inorder to be sent out there, but
she was actually 65 when shetraveled out.
Wow.
Which is, yeah, reallysomething.
Absolutely.
And she worked herself to thebone.
She slept in the kitchen, um, sothat she could be on hand if
anybody needed her in the night,And just exhausted herself in
(14:30):
order to serve her fellowcountrymen.
She was, she was from the minuteshe read it in the newspaper,
she was living in London at thetime and she was, uh, working as
a housekeeper.
And she had recently trained asa nurse at Geis Hospital in
London.
And, she'd had a whole lifetimeof travel, which we can tell you
about as well, because she spentliterally, up until that point,
shed traveled the world on aship and worked, as a
(14:53):
housekeeper, as, as a nanny.
She'd done so many differentjobs and, she was working in
London and read about, um, theCrimean War in the newspaper and
was really horrified at whatstate, the soldiers were
reported to be in.
And this was of course, thefirst time that, that
battlefield reporting happened.
You know, that we actually hadreporters who could tell the
story of what was happeningthere.
(15:15):
And, everybody was horrified,apparently in the country when
they read about this and thepoor soldiers being treated so
badly.
But Betsy was like straightaway.
Her first thought was, I'mgoing, I'm, I've got to find out
what's happening.
I'm going, I'm, I'm getting on aship and I'm going.
And she just did absolutelyeverything to get there.
She literally went to seeanyone.
(15:35):
She could think of any friendsand, contacts that she could
think of that would help her toget there.
She would, she would walk toacross London to find them and,
persuade them to, to let her seethe lady who was organizing the
nurses.
And, and I just can't believeshe actually did that and
actually got there outta just 14nurses.
Yeah.
And a lot of them were nuns aswell, so it was a very, very
(15:57):
small number that she managed topersuade them that she was.
A good nurse and that she wouldserve well, and also that she
was 10 years younger than shereally was.
Love it.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I'm, I'm hearingtenacity, I'm hearing courage
and I'm hearing excellentskincare routine because Yeah,
she's pulling off saying she's10 years younger.
(16:17):
That is not nothing, let me tellyou.
Yeah.
So the, the, the courage tothrow herself out there and get
into it.
You've just mentioned that shetraveled before.
Uh, the Crimea, which I hadn'trealized.
So she was already out exploringthe world as a woman at that
(16:38):
point in history.
That's crazy.
Can you say more about that?
So she ran away from home whenshe was about nine and went to,
um, live with, um, some peoplewho were still living in Balla,
but in a, in a big hand, areverend.
And his wife, and she was acompanion to the wife who taught
(17:00):
her to read and write, to speakEnglish, to play the heart to,
you know, but She wanted to stayindependent.
She wanted to do something forherself.
So she ran away from that houseand got a passage on a ship to
Liverpool, and went into servicethere.
She had various jobs inLiverpool, then she, came
(17:20):
across, she was working for apretty nasty woman by the sound
of it.
And told her story to a passerbywho turned out to be an Indian
princess who was married to anoble man called Sir George.
And.
She went to work in theirhousehold and she traveled with
them on the grand tour aroundEurope, which is where she went
(17:43):
to, the aftermath of the Battleof Waterloo.
And she met the young Napoleon.
She was in Paris when King Louisthe 18th was restored.
She climbed Theus.
She went to Spain.
She had an in incredible journeythere and that gave her a real
taste for travel.
And she then got a job on boardship.
(18:04):
I see why you were like, we needto fact check this autography.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's so random.
Yeah.
So she, she traveled all overthe world.
She spent quite a long time inAustralia.
She had lots of proposals ofmarriage from people all over
the world, but she never wantedto lose her independence.
She always decided that shewould stay single.
(18:26):
So, um, there were apparently alot of proposals in Australia
where there were 30 men to everywoman there.
She did, she did well to turnthose.
Then some, one guy kidnapped herand, uh, tried to marry her by
force, but she ran away.
Again, that's not a proposal.
Yeah, that's not okay.
That's not how we do things.
(18:47):
That she stood up to him.
She was in India for quite atime.
She had, there's a lovely storythat we tell in the play where
she was sent with three Burmeseladies wanted to go from the
ship back to their home in avillage.
And Betsy was asked to accompanythem'cause nobody else would go.
(19:08):
So she said, well, I will.
And it turned out that they weresent on elephants.
Somebody just whispered in theear of the elephant.
They set off through the junglefor a full day and evening, then
stopped at a random postinghouse where they spent the
night, got back on theelephants.
(19:28):
The next day, whispered in theirear off they went again to the,
the place where the Burmeseladies were going to.
And then Betsy was sent back onthe elephant by herself all the
way to the ship.
It makes Uber look pretty weak,doesn't it?
Yeah, I, exactly.
She would look for a Welshchapel as well, or a Welsh
(19:48):
speaking community, andinvariably find one as well,
which was really incredible,because she was, Welsh speaking,
obviously from birth.
And her father was also a veryfamous Welsh preacher.
So, religion was very importantto her.
The Bible was very important toher, and she actually had the
first copy of the Welsh Bible.
The same one that Mary Joneshad.
(20:10):
You might have heard the storyof Mary Jones, who had the first
Welsh Bible, that was published.
And the man who published thisBible was actually a family
friend of Betsy's, so she gotthe same one as well.
So, so she carried this Biblewith her all her life.
And, she lived her life by theBible in a very, very honest,
you know, really, really honest,fiercely honest.
(20:32):
And, she really hated to seeanything that was dishonest.
And, if any of her, any of thepeople that she worked for were
ever, ever treated her badly,she wouldn't te accept it.
She would actually stand up forherself and confront, you know,
the problem.
And if she was ever accused ofanything that she was innocent
of, she would.
Absolutely deny it and stand upand say, no, I did not do that,
(20:52):
and I can prove it.
And this is what happened.
And she gives quite a fewincidences in the book and in
one case, I think she walkedaway from one of her bosses when
she got accused of something andshe was like, Nope, I've had
enough.
I'm going.
And you just went to the left.
That's good.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Because many servants, I thinkat that time were probably very
badly treated.
You know, especially the, theworking class women's servants
(21:16):
were probably at the bottom ofthe pile, I should imagine.
But she wasn't having any ofthat, you know, she was always
very, she had a lot ofself-respect, I think.
But her travels, the, theanimal, she describes me, you
know, seeing a serpent.
Yeah.
It's a huge serpent that getschased by horses and men on
horses to get killed comingthrough, through a village.
And she describes seeing apanther on a remote beach.
(21:39):
And, oh gosh, oh camel, she wenton a camel ride as well.
She, she, she went, got sent offon a camel and again, just got
on the camel and had.
The camel's back was slapped andit just kept going.
And she had to ask somebody, howdo I stop after she'd been going
half a day and they just turnedthe camel around and slapped it
and sent it back.
Oh my God.
So yeah, she said that she, butshe was so brave and so utterly
(22:02):
fearless, in all her adventures.
It was quite incredible.
So I think that led into thengoing to the Crimea.
By the time she'd had all thoseadventures and then decided to
come back to London and work Ithink she thought she wouldn't
travel again at that point, thatshe'd had enough.
But then when she saw, theproblems in the Crimea, she was
desperate to, to go and get backon the ship and, go and find out
(22:23):
about it.
And she didn't have any fearbecause she'd already survived
several storms on board thesehuge wooden ships.
I just can't believe shesurvived half of the storm.
She describes'cause they arehorrendous and the ships have
had to put into port for monthsand months to get repaired and,
she's not phased.
She just gets back on when it'srepaired and ready to go off she
(22:46):
goes again.
Yeah.
And was she doing all this stuffin like the like costume, like
the wear.
she doing that in That'samazing.
Yep, She was literally wearingher dress door all through the,
and when you are on stage.
You are wearing these elaboratecostumes as well, and you look
(23:10):
wonderful.
Did it however, give you a senseof, good God, how did anyone get
anything done?
Because it looks like an awfullot going on, you know, layers
and corsets and bustles, and whoknows what.
Yeah, it, it is a lot, you know,and it, and it does make you
think, good grief, you know, I'mstruggling here, I'm boiling hot
(23:31):
'cause I'm running around for anhour on stage.
But this was, this was her lifeand she was in, you know.
Turkey and India and Australia,not in temperate places at all,
I, I honestly don't know howwomen did it back in the day.
And I think that that feeds intothe whole idea of telling their
stories because they were doingit with an incredible, mountain
(23:56):
to climb before they evenstarted doing anything because
the whole, you know.
Hygiene and costume andeverything was so difficult for
them to overcome that anybodydoing, any woman doing anything
in those days, I think is reallyworthy of praise.
It's quite incredible.
Especially when you add likeYeah.
And also time in the morning.
(24:21):
I need somebody to help me getdressed.
Yes, Claire does.
Claire has to be, yeah.
Tied into the corset every, forevery performance, and then
obviously loosened out a bitbecause Yeah.
Claire can't get in and outtaher costume by herself.
It's possible because we have totie the back and, it is quite a.
You know, quite a lot of layersand a lot of complications.
(24:41):
And have pet coats and boots,you know, which they would've
worn.
And bonnets you know, her headwas always covered.
And even if it was a light cap,she would've always had her
head.
Covered,, it was a lot to bear,but she never complained about
that.
She was quite proud, I think, ofbeing, very clean and tidy.
She talks a lot about, clotheswhen she goes to the premier,
because they only gave them oneuniform to begin with.
(25:03):
She was like, oh.
I can't manage with that.
You know, I, I, I need more.
So she would take, she took allher own for spares, but she
said, that some of the nurseswouldn't have had spare dresses
to take.
They were told that theycouldn't keep their, um.
On board the ship.
They had to travel in the hold,so they had no access the whole
time to their spare clothes.
They just have what they werestanding up in.
(25:25):
Oh dear.
Yeah.
All the way there.
And that was for journey ofweeks and weeks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it was very smelly.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Must have been.
Can you imagine?
Yeah.
But she, she was very annoyedabout that because she liked to
be clean, especially, you know,when she was nursing.
Nursing, well, in all of herjobs, actually, nursing.
Oh my God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and even as, as ahousekeeper, she was very
(25:46):
particular about being clean andtidy and presentable.
You know, that was, Somethingshe was very, very conscious of.
And, uh, yeah.
So that really frustrated herwhen they gave her very minimal
amount of clothing and uniform.
yeah.
she did make a point of that.
It's very interesting to hearthe things you're saying about
(26:07):
her being particular, aboutbeing honest and scrupulous, And
I think, in common with a lot ofthe women we talk about, she has
come from such a humblebackground and she has decided a
standard for herself.
She said, this is, this is whatI'm going to work to, that
hasn't been imposed from theoutside.
(26:28):
And I wonder if that gives akind of flexibility that maybe
your Florence Nightingales mightnot.
Have because they've comethrough a system where
everything is orderly andeverything works, and so you
just follow the rules and theneverything's fine, but.
I find it so interesting thatshe is a self-made woman in, in
a very literal sense.
(26:49):
She left her family home at nineand got out there into the
world.
I can absolutely see why youread this book and thought this
is a story that needs to betold.
Are there other women on yourradar right now who you're
starting to kind of think thatyou might like to do something
(27:10):
about in the future?
Yes, we we're, we're currently,um, hoping to do a production.
Now we've started our researchand thinking about to play about
Mary Frost.
Now she is, the wife of JohnFrost, who you may have heard of
we've read a wonderful book bySylvia Mason, who has told her
story really.
(27:30):
So we've been speaking to Sylviaabout that and asking her if she
would, you know, if she thinksit might, would make a good
play.
And she's very excited as wellabout making that into a play.
So she's, on our radar now atthe moment, and we're hoping to,
um, turn this into a productionin the near future.
So that will hopefully be ournext production.
So, um, yes, Mary's story was,is very much untold because
(27:53):
obviously John Frost has, has.
Strong fo story has been toldmany, many times that Mary was
the, the silent woman behind himfor the whole of the chartist,
um, movement's time.
So, um, yeah, we thought itwould be really interesting to
explore a story from, from thatangle.
Quite a different woman toBetsy, I think.
But, um, yeah, very interestingin a different way in that
(28:15):
she's, she's playing a role, um,in the background the whole
time, but, um.
Because that was how ladies hadto be at that time.
You know, most ladies, even forwhen we talked about Florence
Nightingale as a lady, she had aan absolute battle to, to get
accepted.
I.
As a nurse and to, you know, to,but from her family, she, she
(28:35):
had to really rebel against herfamily to get to where she did.
It was just not the done thingfor a lady, you know, to Oh, to
go in hospitals and to work.
Um, yeah, and to be at thatclose, close proximity to men,
especially to work with men.
So in her own way, she also hada, a, a class battle.
Florence Nightingales comes up alot and Ever take away Like she
(28:57):
had her own Oh yeah.
Light and her own like saybattles I think she's especially
in English I swear we did likesix weeks on her own primary
school.
Yeah.
Like she's such a prominentfigure.
So anything that goes againstthat you realize how complex
(29:23):
how.
many layers there, there andthen trying to tell those in a
is very, um, it's, I wouldn'tsay it's hard.
I enjoy it, but I wonder like,how is you read, about Betsy
(29:47):
that, do you have a set systemor is it quite organic?
I think, yeah, I think it wasquite organic really.
We, I started out writing a onewoman play, and it, that was
sort of how it first of all cameto me as a woman, woman play,
because I just saw Betsy as sucha driving force.
I thought she's, she's justgoing to literally speak the
narrative and tell the storyalmost as she does in her own
(30:08):
book.
But then, um.
When we presented it like that,I, we, we had a read through of
first reading of the, first ofthe very first draft.
And Claire, you, you, you cansay what, how, how you felt
about yes.
We, I think it's safe to saythat we heard me read it and
thought we need more people inthis.
No, when, when we read thestory, we realized that there,
(30:29):
there were so many things that.
Had happened so many events, somany other people involved that
we decided to do it as a twoperson play.
To have Jane Williams who wrotethe autobiography bookend the
play at either end, um, and tohave Betsy then telling the
story with a series offlashbacks, which.
(30:51):
Jane Williams would then becomeother people in that story.
Mm-hmm.
So in our production, playedJane Williams and played 14
other people who Betsy meetsthroughout her life, male and
female.
And that, um.
Brought a real sense ofliveliness to the production, I
think, and a lot of humor aswell.
(31:11):
You know, it's nice to see aAdell with a mustache on a
stick, you know, that kind ofthing.
And it, and it gave the audiencepermission to find these things
funny and to engage with it alot more.
And, and that was reallyimportant to us, was to be able
to speak to the audience and beable to really bring them in.
(31:32):
And feel their emotions throughit as well.
And we've had lovely experienceswith audiences, you know,
laughing throughout and cryingas well at the sad bits and, and
really engaging with us.
It's been lovely to experienceand lovely as well, to feel that
you are bringing a woman's storyto people, to women and men who
(31:56):
have had no idea about it beforeand who can really appreciate
it.
Yes, and we're hoping to do thatwith all the plays that we
produce, you know, with MaryFrost as well, who had a real
quiet strength, but who was, um,a, a kind of in the eye of the
storm of the charter movementand keeping her family going and
(32:17):
keeping everything going with areal quiet strength, as I say.
And again, that's somethingwhich I think can really engage
audiences in which you can feela sympathy with.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think the, the audienceengagement was really important.
Yeah.
For me as well when I waswriting it.
And, and for Claire as well as aperformer, and Claire actually
(32:39):
does go down to the audience.
We, we've performed in, in sortof small studio type.
Venues where we have been ableto get quite good eye contact
with the audience and to go upto them.
And Claire involves them in, ina dance and, um, in the storm
scene.
And, you know, she really bringsthe audience in and it's, you
know, the reaction that we'vehad has been amazing.
People have really enjoyed.
(32:59):
That connection and I think it'sreally helped them to understand
the story and to understandBetsy's character.
And people, quite often peoplehave said to us at the end that,
um, Claire really is Betsy.
They've said, oh my gosh, it islike she is actually here, you
know, in the room.
It's so, uh, yeah, we did alovely performance for a school
as well, a primary school, whichwas lovely.
(33:22):
They were only six, six and, uh,and seven, bless them.
And they, really, reallybelieved that Claire was Betsy.
And, they asked her lots ofquestions afterwards about how
do you like to traveling?
Gosh, the country she likedbest.
It was absolutely adorable.
And they, they were really,really engaged in the whole
story and, uh, wanted to knowmore.
And they loved all the historyand all the facts.
(33:43):
They were so interested, weren'tthey, Claire?
They were.
Oh, it was, it was reallylovely.
We've done performances to, um,smaller sort of community
groups, and we've also beenlucky enough that we've engaged
a lot of nurses as well.
Mm-hmm.
And you well very often findthat people will say afterwards,
oh, I was a nurse.
And I never really knew muchabout Betsy, but gosh, it was so
(34:04):
right.
Yeah.
She was ahead of her time inthinking about hygiene and food
and everything.
It was, it was wonderful to hearhow she stood up for nurses and,
and for nursing and for thetraining of nurses as well.
We were very lucky to havesupport from Donna Mead, who,
has done extensive research onBetsy, she was amazing.
(34:25):
She gave us lots of information,background information.
She had actually found Betsy'sgrave in London because Betsy,
was actually buried as a pauper.
Very sadly.
Although she published thisautobiography, it was literally
ignored.
It was completely ignored.
It was just written off as the,as the lies ramblings of a crazy
(34:45):
Welsh woman and, um, completelyignored and buried because of
course she was speaking truth topower.
She was criticizing thegovernment.
She was Welsh.
And at that time, the governmentwas trying very hard.
Hard to suppress Welshnationalism and the Welsh
language.
And they were installing Englishpriests in Welsh churches.
They were trying to suppress thelanguage and put the English
(35:06):
language in all education andstop Welsh language teaching.
And the last thing they wantedwas a revolutionary Welsh woman
publishing of this, um,autobiography about her time in
the Crimea.
And, so it was literally pushedaside, written off, buried in
history for literally.
Years and years and years.
And, and then eventually, DonnaMead, who, works for the RCN um,
(35:32):
she decided to do a lot ofresearch on Betsy and she went
and found the grave in Londonand had a, had a lovely service
for her and put up a lovelystone with her name on.
And,, the nurses went and had aservice and, commemorated her
life.
And that's how then theycampaigned for her to be, for
her name to be on the healthboard in North Wales.
So it's now named after her.
(35:53):
But that was apparently quite abattle as well because people
didn't know enough about her orher work.
So sounds really collaborative.
Like you were all, all liftingher up Yeah.
Bringing really, maybe a bitemotional.
This is really lovely.
Yeah.
That is gorgeous.
Yeah.
And, you know, however long ittook and that she didn't see it
(36:13):
in her lifetime Um, I spottedthat you have got a partnership,
I think is the right word, withnights out.
Where, where would people beable to,, book you to come and
do a production or where wouldpeople be able to come and see a
production of Daughter of Bala?
Yeah.
(36:33):
the Night Out scheme is actuallyrun by the Arts Council of
Wales.
It's a scheme that allows, um,volunteers or community groups
to actually book, production,without having to worry too much
about the, the whole costcovering the whole cost of it.
So, um, the idea is that the, ittakes theater to communities all
(36:56):
over Wales.
Small venues and they don't haveto worry about covering the
costs with their ticket salesbecause the Arts Council will
subsidize the production.
So, um, it's available to allorganizations, all volunteers,
maybe Village Halls, Ws,anywhere really that has a venue
that we can perform in.
And we don't need a huge space.
(37:16):
We're quite happy with a smallspace and our set is completely
portable.
Yeah, that's, this, it's areally great scheme actually run
by the arts council and we'rereally delighted that they
accepted our production onto it.
And, um, yeah, people can book,um, book well via the arts
council, but we have a link onour website as well.
Yes, that's, um, really driveabout Yeah.
(37:38):
Arts and stuff.
Yes.
They're very good at that kindof thing.
Yeah.
I think we're a very creativenation.
We've, we've also got anothercouple of performances coming
up, which is very exciting inAugust.
And, we're part of a theaterfestival that's gonna take place
on the ninth and 10th of Augustin Newport at, the Phyllis Mord,
which is a tiny little theaterspace,, which has been adapted
(38:00):
from a gentleman's toilet to ahistoric building.
It very, very tiny would feelabout this.
I.
So yes, we're, we're going to bepart of that festival and, uh,
have, you'll have to look on ourwebsite for more details about
that.
But, uh, yeah, excited aboutdoing that as well.
(38:21):
We'll link it in the, um, shownotes so we're quite happy to,
we're very flexible and we justlove it.
It's'cause we love it.
We love what we do.
We are really.
Privilege to do it And we justlove telling this story.
It's been so much fun and um,and Claire is utterly brilliant
as Betsy as well, and it isutterly brilliant.
(38:41):
Everybody else.
Aw.
I love them talking to otherpeople things.
'cause it is quite a nichething, isn't it?
These women from history thatyou dunno about.
Um, been our toe, learndifferent love it.
(39:06):
for spending I'm sorry Art.
as good as those six I'm, sorryabout that.
No, you've got nothing to bringto the table.
Nothing.
This has been wonderful.
Thank you very, very much.
Both of you.
As Vicki said, it's just, uh, ajoy to meet other people who are
(39:28):
excited about this and, and,want to tell these stories.
So I am super, super lookingforward to seeing the play.
Um, whether that is in a gentstoilets or not, wherever it may
be, I'll be there.
Um, so thank you so much for,for being being our guest today
(39:48):
and you're more than welcome.
Oh, thank you.
Really do appreciate it.
Thank you for inviting us.
audio2663295054 (40:00):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
Okay.
So do we wanna just get straightinto it?
Yeah, if you, yeah, if you wouldlike to.
Okay.
So, um.
I will start by saying, hiVicki.
How are you today?
I'm good.
How are you doing?
Yeah, I'm good.
Thank you.
Although technical difficulties,if anybody looks today, looks at
(00:28):
video, you're not brand today.
Today.
So sad.
You've lost your I'm off brand.
I'm off brand and, uh, we'lllose sponsorship from the Velvet
Curtain Company, but oh my God,we're gonna have to push on.
Um, there our only income.
We are, I'm probably just makingmistakes because I'm giddy
because we have wonderfulguests.
(00:49):
Not, not one, but two, so if youwould like, I can do a little
intro to set the, set the scene.
Yes, please give me, yeah.
Sounds, yeah.
Okay.
So today we are very happy to bewelcoming Adele Corder and
Claire Drewitt, both of the herstory theater company and many
(01:12):
other things.
Um, her story is a group foundedin South Wales to explore the
lives of women in history andtoday through engaging theater
experience.
And they do this by writing.
And performing, original playswith a focus on entertainment
and elevating the narratives ofwomen.
(01:34):
You'll, you'll notice that I'mpulling these words directly
from your excellent websiteladies.
You are all about putting thesewomen center stage, so that just
aligns so much with what Vickiwanted to do with, she changed
history and I've been very gladto come along and help with.
Your, current touring productionis Daughter of Bala.
(01:57):
And,, to give it the prey that,again, I'm a shameless thief.
I've pulled this from the Glengoer workman's hall prey, where
they say it is the captivatinglife story of Betsy.
Kader, so we're going from herhumble beginnings in Wales to
her globe trotting escapades inservice.
(02:18):
And before we hear all aboutBetsy, I was hoping that we
could learn a little bit moreabout you, So, how are you guys
involved?
What is your part in, in thetheater troupe and in the play?
Well, I, I am a, a writer, um,so I'm a playwright.
And I, I was previously acopywriter and then I decided to
(02:40):
take a master's degree in, inscript writing.
So, um, yes, now I'm aplaywright, which is fantastic.
I love it.
It's lovely to explore thecreative avenues and I have
particular interest in writingwomen's stories..
And so I have, Claire, who wasmy wonderful friend and two
other lovely friends as well,Alison and Linda.
(03:00):
And we all got together anddecided we'd like to make
theater company to form atheater company to tell the
stories of women, which, I wouldwrite.
So.
So the first one that we cameacross was Betsy Kad Wall's
Story.
And, I'm also a performer anddirector, which,, I have been
for.
since I was really little as aperformer anyway.
(03:23):
And, and I've known Clairethrough community theater
production together as withLinda and Allison.
We just decided, let's go forit.
Let's make, um, let's make asmall touring theater company
and let's tour it to tellwomen's stories, especially
women, of a particular age.
Because we as performers, werealized that there weren't many
(03:44):
roles for women of our kind ofage and, we want those roles.
You know, we want these, thesestrong roles and these strong
women and we want women to bethe main protagonist.
And that was one of my mainambitions in my writing, to make
women the center of the storyand particularly an older woman
maybe at times.
That was my, that was myambition in writing the play to
(04:05):
begin with.
And then, and Claire wasabsolutely brilliant and that I
wrote it with Claire in mind toplay Betsy, and she is
absolutely an absolute starplaying Betsy.
Oh, I was so lucky to, befriendly with aal.
We've acted together and I'vedirected Adele, she's directed
me.
Um, for years now.
I've been performing since I wasprobably.
(04:26):
Kneehigh to a grasshopper, andit was just amazing to be able
to work with Ade in setting upthis theater company and
bringing Betsy to the stage.
And her story was absolutelyfantastic.
It's been, it's been really,really good fun and an amazing
chance to play an incrediblecharacter from history.
(04:46):
I loved it.
This is fascinating Absolute.
What Kaa said earlier aboutbeing giddy.
I definitely like, already I amlike, yes, this is fantastic.
And we were talking last week,weren't we?
Kaa about Nicole Kidman there'skind of this, not a dramatic
word, but there's um, there'sdefinitely more how did you,
(05:11):
whatever phrase you used?
Certain age?
Yeah, an age.
I didn't wanna, um, drag theGreg Wallace thing out, but
Yeah.
The, um, but no, that's, it's sothoughtful, it's just lots
threads that we don't normallyget to see and get to peek
behind like that.
(05:32):
And actually we've donewhatever, how many episodes like
35, something like that.
And we haven't yet gone toWales.
Very exciting.
Wow.
Yeah.
Amazing.
You're our first Well story.
So, um, yeah.
Yes.
I'd love to learn a little bitmore about Betsy, sharing.
Yeah.
Well, we, we were really amazedactually that her story hadn't
(05:54):
been told before in terms of asa theatrical production or film
or tv.
Really amazed because I read it,it's her autobiography.
She wrote it herself, but aghost writer with a ghost
writer, if you like.
So she calls it anautobiography, but she had this
amazing, friend who was ahistorian at the time called
Jane Williams.
And, she asked her to write itfor her because she was a lady
(06:17):
working class background, fromNorth Wales in ball and,, from
very, very humble beginnings.
And she knew that if this ladyhistorian wrote it for her, it
would be more believable.
And also Jane Williams inwriting this, autobiography as
she called it.
Researched all of the facts thatBetsy told her about her life,
(06:39):
which are totally incredible.
I mean, you'd read it and you'dthink that can't possibly have
happened.
She can't possibly have been atthe Battle of Waterloo.
She can't possibly have met abishop when she was traveling
around the world.
She can't possibly have gone toAustralia, literally.
Countries all over the world,south America, everywhere that
you can think of.
She went in her lifetime.
(06:59):
And you keep pinching yourselfas you turn each page and think,
no, this can't possibly be true.
But Jane Williams has actuallycross-checked all of the facts
and made sure that they weretrue.
Um.
And put little clips of evidencein the book as well, which is
really interesting.
'cause there are footnotes onevery single page giving
evidence that, um, you know,that these things most likely
(07:20):
did happen because they were, atthe time that Betsy was
traveling and that the peopleshe said she met, she even said
she met the Emperor of China.
Oh gosh.
Accidentally by accidentallywalking into a hall where he was
sitting on the floor smoking apipe, uh, because she was on an
adventure there at the time andshe was very adventurous and
just went exploring off byherself.
(07:41):
So she was an absolute.
Incredible character when, and Ijust read her and couldn't stop,
read the book, couldn't stopturning the pages.
And then, um, said to Claire andLinda Allison, we have got to
tell this story.
So the Battle of Waterloo islike 1815, isn't it?
So was she born 1700?
Born in seventeen, eighty nine.
89?
Yeah.
Born in 1789.
(08:03):
1789 in Ballor, to a family with16 children.
Yeah.
Wow.
And she's mostly known in Walestoday only as a name through one
of the house boards is namedafter her.
So there's the Betsy Cardwell,the House Board in North Wales,
but.
Nobody knows her story.
We found really researching withour audiences and everything
that they all pretty much to aman said afterwards, gosh, I
(08:26):
knew nothing about her.
All I knew was she's the name ofthe house board and it's been
incredible to learn somethingabout her.
Just to list the things that shedid.
She was a heck of a gal and shewas, you know, so feisty and
stood up for whales and forherself and for women and for
(08:47):
nurses, and was absolutely anincredible woman.
And for her to have been livingin that time as well, and to
have done it all in long skirtsand corsets is something else
entirely, you know.
You've touched on two things oneof the points that was made was
that she wasn't afraid to speakher mind to, to say how say it
(09:10):
like it was.
And that led to a particularconfrontation that was noted
with a famous, a famous figure,which was interesting for.
Us because we have coveredanother character in the past
who also had a run in with thisfigure.
So Betsy and FlorenceNightingale, got into it,, from
(09:30):
what I could see could you saymore about that?
Was that an example of her beingout there and just being put
into close quarters with someonewho didn't see things the way
she did?
Yes, I think it, it wasabsolutely, I think she, they
clashed, I think from thebeginning, partly because of
their backgrounds.
You know, Florence Nightingalewas an English lady, and, um,
(09:53):
Betsy was a Welsh working classwoman.
And, so they clashed on thatfront.
Betsy was very, determined tobreak the rules when it came to,
the Crimean War, and that's oneof the reasons why she wanted to
publish her book.
She wanted to tell the story ofthe Crimean War from her point
of view, and she really wantedto speak truth to power.
(10:14):
And she actually was reallycritical in her book of the
government and of their handlingof, um, the situation in the
Crimean war because, they sent,they had lots and lots of free
gifts that, the public haddonated.
For the soldiers, things like,food, food stuffs and, clothing
items.
Clothing.
Yep.
(10:34):
sheets, blankets.
Yep.
You know, very similar to peopletoday, sending stuff out to
water onn countries, you know,to help.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
But these, these supplies werenot allowed to be released to
the men without signatures from,a doctor and then military men
as well, so.
The doctors were just all toobusy.
There was hardly any doctorsthere.
And they were see, looking afterlike hundreds and hundreds of
(10:56):
patients and soldiers who werevery badly wounded, so they
didn't have time to be signingrequisitions and getting them
countersigned.
But Florence Nighting girl wasvery much, um, she was trying to
control the situation by thebook, and she, she had been sent
there to be in charge of thenurses and to be in charge of
all the supplies.
So she was trying to keepeverything under control,
whereas Betsy was saying.
(11:17):
Just let us go into the storerooms and grab these things that
we need and, you know, nevermindthe signatures.
And Florence was very muchfollowing the rules and was
like, no, no, we can't, we can'tpossibly do that.
It's, it has to all be doneproperly.
And, um, that's where theyclashed.
That was one of the things thatthey, they clashed over.
The other way that they majorlyclashed as well was that
(11:39):
battlefield and nurse thesoldiers in the Crimea.
Whereas Florence Nightingale wasmostly based in Scutari in
Turkey, which was about 300miles from where the men were
actually being injured.
And Betsy had a kind of,complained that the nurses
weren't allowed to go on thewards and help the men in the
hospitals Atari.
(11:59):
And she felt like she was beinguseless.
And so she, campaigned andfought with Florence Nightingale
to be sent out to Balaclava,actually to the Crimea so she
could nurse the soldiers there.
And I think when she did getthere as well, she just took
over and, got things going forthe men.
Got them, you know, turned herhorror at what she saw there
(12:22):
into action and got, you know,beds for the men.
Got them organized, started akitchen, started cooking, on
braziers for all the men, andmaking sure that they had a good
diet.
And then making friends withLord Raglan, who was very
supportive of her efforts inhelping the men up the front.
She was very actiony.
Very, yeah.
Just wanna get stick in and doit.
(12:43):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was, she was incrediblyfrustrated when she first got
set, got to the crime that shedidn't actually get there.
They kept her on a first, theysent her to, um, uh, they sent
to her house.
Yeah, it was Therapi, wasn't it?
It was the house, um, belongingto the local ambassador.
And they sent them there for aweek or two.
They kind of kept, kept themaway from the, for, even from
(13:05):
the Scutari base, um, for weekson end.
And she couldn't understand why.
She just wanted to get straightto the men and, and get to work
and help and nurse them.
And, um, she discovered laterthat it was because Florence
Nightingale didn't actually, um.
Want anymore nurses, she wentout with a group of 40 and she
didn't expect anymore.
She didn't have facilities foranymore.
(13:26):
She felt she didn't have abudget for anymore.
She didn't have anywhere to, to,um, oh my God.
Sort to sleep.
And, you know, so she was, shewas in a, she was really angry
apparently when she realizedthat this extra party of nurses
had been sent and she didn'tknow how she was gonna cope.
With that because she, she wasbarely coping.
I think with having 40, it wastoo much,, because of the
situation there and theconditions which were
(13:48):
horrendous.
And, yeah, she was horrified athaving to cope with more nurses.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, yeah, so Betsy didn'tdiscover that until.
She actually arrived later afterpetitioning and petitioning.
The lady who was kind of lookingafter them all and saying, we
want to go, we want to go.
And she was getting very, veryfrustrated and angry, her age in
order to get there as well, Ithink.
(14:10):
Incredible.
She said that she was 55 inorder to be sent out there, but
she was actually 65 when shetraveled out.
Wow.
Which is, yeah, reallysomething.
Absolutely.
And she worked herself to thebone.
She slept in the kitchen, um, sothat she could be on hand if
anybody needed her in the night,And just exhausted herself in
(14:30):
order to serve her fellowcountrymen.
She was, she was from the minuteshe read it in the newspaper,
she was living in London at thetime and she was, uh, working as
a housekeeper.
And she had recently trained asa nurse at Geis Hospital in
London.
And, she'd had a whole lifetimeof travel, which we can tell you
about as well, because she spentliterally, up until that point,
shed traveled the world on aship and worked, as a
(14:53):
housekeeper, as, as a nanny.
She'd done so many differentjobs and, she was working in
London and read about, um, theCrimean War in the newspaper and
was really horrified at whatstate, the soldiers were
reported to be in.
And this was of course, thefirst time that, that
battlefield reporting happened.
You know, that we actually hadreporters who could tell the
story of what was happeningthere.
(15:15):
And, everybody was horrified,apparently in the country when
they read about this and thepoor soldiers being treated so
badly.
But Betsy was like straightaway.
Her first thought was, I'mgoing, I'm, I've got to find out
what's happening.
I'm going, I'm, I'm getting on aship and I'm going.
And she just did absolutelyeverything to get there.
She literally went to seeanyone.
(15:35):
She could think of any friendsand, contacts that she could
think of that would help her toget there.
She would, she would walk toacross London to find them and,
persuade them to, to let her seethe lady who was organizing the
nurses.
And, and I just can't believeshe actually did that and
actually got there outta just 14nurses.
Yeah.
And a lot of them were nuns aswell, so it was a very, very
(15:57):
small number that she managed topersuade them that she was.
A good nurse and that she wouldserve well, and also that she
was 10 years younger than shereally was.
Love it.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I'm, I'm hearingtenacity, I'm hearing courage
and I'm hearing excellentskincare routine because Yeah,
she's pulling off saying she's10 years younger.
(16:17):
That is not nothing, let me tellyou.
Yeah.
So the, the, the courage tothrow herself out there and get
into it.
You've just mentioned that shetraveled before.
Uh, the Crimea, which I hadn'trealized.
So she was already out exploringthe world as a woman at that
(16:38):
point in history.
That's crazy.
Can you say more about that?
So she ran away from home whenshe was about nine and went to,
um, live with, um, some peoplewho were still living in Balla,
but in a, in a big hand, areverend.
And his wife, and she was acompanion to the wife who taught
(17:00):
her to read and write, to speakEnglish, to play the heart to,
you know, but She wanted to stayindependent.
She wanted to do something forherself.
So she ran away from that houseand got a passage on a ship to
Liverpool, and went into servicethere.
She had various jobs inLiverpool, then she, came
(17:20):
across, she was working for apretty nasty woman by the sound
of it.
And told her story to a passerbywho turned out to be an Indian
princess who was married to anoble man called Sir George.
And.
She went to work in theirhousehold and she traveled with
them on the grand tour aroundEurope, which is where she went
(17:43):
to, the aftermath of the Battleof Waterloo.
And she met the young Napoleon.
She was in Paris when King Louisthe 18th was restored.
She climbed Theus.
She went to Spain.
She had an in incredible journeythere and that gave her a real
taste for travel.
And she then got a job on boardship.
(18:04):
I see why you were like, we needto fact check this autography.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's so random.
Yeah.
So she, she traveled all overthe world.
She spent quite a long time inAustralia.
She had lots of proposals ofmarriage from people all over
the world, but she never wantedto lose her independence.
She always decided that shewould stay single.
(18:26):
So, um, there were apparently alot of proposals in Australia
where there were 30 men to everywoman there.
She did, she did well to turnthose.
Then some, one guy kidnapped herand, uh, tried to marry her by
force, but she ran away.
Again, that's not a proposal.
Yeah, that's not okay.
That's not how we do things.
(18:47):
That she stood up to him.
She was in India for quite atime.
She had, there's a lovely storythat we tell in the play where
she was sent with three Burmeseladies wanted to go from the
ship back to their home in avillage.
And Betsy was asked to accompanythem'cause nobody else would go.
(19:08):
So she said, well, I will.
And it turned out that they weresent on elephants.
Somebody just whispered in theear of the elephant.
They set off through the junglefor a full day and evening, then
stopped at a random postinghouse where they spent the
night, got back on theelephants.
(19:28):
The next day, whispered in theirear off they went again to the,
the place where the Burmeseladies were going to.
And then Betsy was sent back onthe elephant by herself all the
way to the ship.
It makes Uber look pretty weak,doesn't it?
Yeah, I, exactly.
She would look for a Welshchapel as well, or a Welsh
(19:48):
speaking community, andinvariably find one as well,
which was really incredible,because she was, Welsh speaking,
obviously from birth.
And her father was also a veryfamous Welsh preacher.
So, religion was very importantto her.
The Bible was very important toher, and she actually had the
first copy of the Welsh Bible.
The same one that Mary Joneshad.
(20:10):
You might have heard the storyof Mary Jones, who had the first
Welsh Bible, that was published.
And the man who published thisBible was actually a family
friend of Betsy's, so she gotthe same one as well.
So, so she carried this Biblewith her all her life.
And, she lived her life by theBible in a very, very honest,
you know, really, really honest,fiercely honest.
(20:32):
And, she really hated to seeanything that was dishonest.
And, if any of her, any of thepeople that she worked for were
ever, ever treated her badly,she wouldn't te accept it.
She would actually stand up forherself and confront, you know,
the problem.
And if she was ever accused ofanything that she was innocent
of, she would.
Absolutely deny it and stand upand say, no, I did not do that,
(20:52):
and I can prove it.
And this is what happened.
And she gives quite a fewincidences in the book and in
one case, I think she walkedaway from one of her bosses when
she got accused of something andshe was like, Nope, I've had
enough.
I'm going.
And you just went to the left.
That's good.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Because many servants, I thinkat that time were probably very
badly treated.
You know, especially the, theworking class women's servants
(21:16):
were probably at the bottom ofthe pile, I should imagine.
But she wasn't having any ofthat, you know, she was always
very, she had a lot ofself-respect, I think.
But her travels, the, theanimal, she describes me, you
know, seeing a serpent.
Yeah.
It's a huge serpent that getschased by horses and men on
horses to get killed comingthrough, through a village.
And she describes seeing apanther on a remote beach.
(21:39):
And, oh gosh, oh camel, she wenton a camel ride as well.
She, she, she went, got sent offon a camel and again, just got
on the camel and had.
The camel's back was slapped andit just kept going.
And she had to ask somebody, howdo I stop after she'd been going
half a day and they just turnedthe camel around and slapped it
and sent it back.
Oh my God.
So yeah, she said that she, butshe was so brave and so utterly
(22:02):
fearless, in all her adventures.
It was quite incredible.
So I think that led into thengoing to the Crimea.
By the time she'd had all thoseadventures and then decided to
come back to London and work Ithink she thought she wouldn't
travel again at that point, thatshe'd had enough.
But then when she saw, theproblems in the Crimea, she was
desperate to, to go and get backon the ship and, go and find out
(22:23):
about it.
And she didn't have any fearbecause she'd already survived
several storms on board thesehuge wooden ships.
I just can't believe shesurvived half of the storm.
She describes'cause they arehorrendous and the ships have
had to put into port for monthsand months to get repaired and,
she's not phased.
She just gets back on when it'srepaired and ready to go off she
(22:46):
goes again.
Yeah.
And was she doing all this stuffin like the like costume, like
the wear.
she doing that in That'samazing.
Yep, She was literally wearingher dress door all through the,
and when you are on stage.
You are wearing these elaboratecostumes as well, and you look
(23:10):
wonderful.
Did it however, give you a senseof, good God, how did anyone get
anything done?
Because it looks like an awfullot going on, you know, layers
and corsets and bustles, and whoknows what.
Yeah, it, it is a lot, you know,and it, and it does make you
think, good grief, you know, I'mstruggling here, I'm boiling hot
(23:31):
'cause I'm running around for anhour on stage.
But this was, this was her lifeand she was in, you know.
Turkey and India and Australia,not in temperate places at all,
I, I honestly don't know howwomen did it back in the day.
And I think that that feeds intothe whole idea of telling their
stories because they were doingit with an incredible, mountain
(23:56):
to climb before they evenstarted doing anything because
the whole, you know.
Hygiene and costume andeverything was so difficult for
them to overcome that anybodydoing, any woman doing anything
in those days, I think is reallyworthy of praise.
It's quite incredible.
Especially when you add likeYeah.
And also time in the morning.
(24:21):
I need somebody to help me getdressed.
Yes, Claire does.
Claire has to be, yeah.
Tied into the corset every, forevery performance, and then
obviously loosened out a bitbecause Yeah.
Claire can't get in and outtaher costume by herself.
It's possible because we have totie the back and, it is quite a.
You know, quite a lot of layersand a lot of complications.
(24:41):
And have pet coats and boots,you know, which they would've
worn.
And bonnets you know, her headwas always covered.
And even if it was a light cap,she would've always had her
head.
Covered,, it was a lot to bear,but she never complained about
that.
She was quite proud, I think, ofbeing, very clean and tidy.
She talks a lot about, clotheswhen she goes to the premier,
because they only gave them oneuniform to begin with.
(25:03):
She was like, oh.
I can't manage with that.
You know, I, I, I need more.
So she would take, she took allher own for spares, but she
said, that some of the nurseswouldn't have had spare dresses
to take.
They were told that theycouldn't keep their, um.
On board the ship.
They had to travel in the hold,so they had no access the whole
time to their spare clothes.
They just have what they werestanding up in.
(25:25):
Oh dear.
Yeah.
All the way there.
And that was for journey ofweeks and weeks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it was very smelly.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Must have been.
Can you imagine?
Yeah.
But she, she was very annoyedabout that because she liked to
be clean, especially, you know,when she was nursing.
Nursing, well, in all of herjobs, actually, nursing.
Oh my God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and even as, as ahousekeeper, she was very
(25:46):
particular about being clean andtidy and presentable.
You know, that was, Somethingshe was very, very conscious of.
And, uh, yeah.
So that really frustrated herwhen they gave her very minimal
amount of clothing and uniform.
yeah.
she did make a point of that.
It's very interesting to hearthe things you're saying about
(26:07):
her being particular, aboutbeing honest and scrupulous, And
I think, in common with a lot ofthe women we talk about, she has
come from such a humblebackground and she has decided a
standard for herself.
She said, this is, this is whatI'm going to work to, that
hasn't been imposed from theoutside.
(26:28):
And I wonder if that gives akind of flexibility that maybe
your Florence Nightingales mightnot.
Have because they've comethrough a system where
everything is orderly andeverything works, and so you
just follow the rules and theneverything's fine, but.
I find it so interesting thatshe is a self-made woman in, in
a very literal sense.
(26:49):
She left her family home at nineand got out there into the
world.
I can absolutely see why youread this book and thought this
is a story that needs to betold.
Are there other women on yourradar right now who you're
starting to kind of think thatyou might like to do something
(27:10):
about in the future?
Yes, we we're, we're currently,um, hoping to do a production.
Now we've started our researchand thinking about to play about
Mary Frost.
Now she is, the wife of JohnFrost, who you may have heard of
we've read a wonderful book bySylvia Mason, who has told her
story really.
(27:30):
So we've been speaking to Sylviaabout that and asking her if she
would, you know, if she thinksit might, would make a good
play.
And she's very excited as wellabout making that into a play.
So she's, on our radar now atthe moment, and we're hoping to,
um, turn this into a productionin the near future.
So that will hopefully be ournext production.
So, um, yes, Mary's story was,is very much untold because
(27:53):
obviously John Frost has, has.
Strong fo story has been toldmany, many times that Mary was
the, the silent woman behind himfor the whole of the chartist,
um, movement's time.
So, um, yeah, we thought itwould be really interesting to
explore a story from, from thatangle.
Quite a different woman toBetsy, I think.
But, um, yeah, very interestingin a different way in that
(28:15):
she's, she's playing a role, um,in the background the whole
time, but, um.
Because that was how ladies hadto be at that time.
You know, most ladies, even forwhen we talked about Florence
Nightingale as a lady, she had aan absolute battle to, to get
accepted.
I.
As a nurse and to, you know, to,but from her family, she, she
(28:35):
had to really rebel against herfamily to get to where she did.
It was just not the done thingfor a lady, you know, to Oh, to
go in hospitals and to work.
Um, yeah, and to be at thatclose, close proximity to men,
especially to work with men.
So in her own way, she also hada, a, a class battle.
Florence Nightingales comes up alot and Ever take away Like she
(28:57):
had her own Oh yeah.
Light and her own like saybattles I think she's especially
in English I swear we did likesix weeks on her own primary
school.
Yeah.
Like she's such a prominentfigure.
So anything that goes againstthat you realize how complex
(29:23):
how.
many layers there, there andthen trying to tell those in a
is very, um, it's, I wouldn'tsay it's hard.
I enjoy it, but I wonder like,how is you read, about Betsy
(29:47):
that, do you have a set systemor is it quite organic?
I think, yeah, I think it wasquite organic really.
We, I started out writing a onewoman play, and it, that was
sort of how it first of all cameto me as a woman, woman play,
because I just saw Betsy as sucha driving force.
I thought she's, she's justgoing to literally speak the
narrative and tell the storyalmost as she does in her own
(30:08):
book.
But then, um.
When we presented it like that,I, we, we had a read through of
first reading of the, first ofthe very first draft.
And Claire, you, you, you cansay what, how, how you felt
about yes.
We, I think it's safe to saythat we heard me read it and
thought we need more people inthis.
No, when, when we read thestory, we realized that there,
(30:29):
there were so many things that.
Had happened so many events, somany other people involved that
we decided to do it as a twoperson play.
To have Jane Williams who wrotethe autobiography bookend the
play at either end, um, and tohave Betsy then telling the
story with a series offlashbacks, which.
(30:51):
Jane Williams would then becomeother people in that story.
Mm-hmm.
So in our production, playedJane Williams and played 14
other people who Betsy meetsthroughout her life, male and
female.
And that, um.
Brought a real sense ofliveliness to the production, I
think, and a lot of humor aswell.
(31:11):
You know, it's nice to see aAdell with a mustache on a
stick, you know, that kind ofthing.
And it, and it gave the audiencepermission to find these things
funny and to engage with it alot more.
And, and that was reallyimportant to us, was to be able
to speak to the audience and beable to really bring them in.
(31:32):
And feel their emotions throughit as well.
And we've had lovely experienceswith audiences, you know,
laughing throughout and cryingas well at the sad bits and, and
really engaging with us.
It's been lovely to experienceand lovely as well, to feel that
you are bringing a woman's storyto people, to women and men who
(31:56):
have had no idea about it beforeand who can really appreciate
it.
Yes, and we're hoping to do thatwith all the plays that we
produce, you know, with MaryFrost as well, who had a real
quiet strength, but who was, um,a, a kind of in the eye of the
storm of the charter movementand keeping her family going and
(32:17):
keeping everything going with areal quiet strength, as I say.
And again, that's somethingwhich I think can really engage
audiences in which you can feela sympathy with.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think the, the audienceengagement was really important.
Yeah.
For me as well when I waswriting it.
And, and for Claire as well as aperformer, and Claire actually
(32:39):
does go down to the audience.
We, we've performed in, in sortof small studio type.
Venues where we have been ableto get quite good eye contact
with the audience and to go upto them.
And Claire involves them in, ina dance and, um, in the storm
scene.
And, you know, she really bringsthe audience in and it's, you
know, the reaction that we'vehad has been amazing.
People have really enjoyed.
(32:59):
That connection and I think it'sreally helped them to understand
the story and to understandBetsy's character.
And people, quite often peoplehave said to us at the end that,
um, Claire really is Betsy.
They've said, oh my gosh, it islike she is actually here, you
know, in the room.
It's so, uh, yeah, we did alovely performance for a school
as well, a primary school, whichwas lovely.
(33:22):
They were only six, six and, uh,and seven, bless them.
And they, really, reallybelieved that Claire was Betsy.
And, they asked her lots ofquestions afterwards about how
do you like to traveling?
Gosh, the country she likedbest.
It was absolutely adorable.
And they, they were really,really engaged in the whole
story and, uh, wanted to knowmore.
And they loved all the historyand all the facts.
(33:43):
They were so interested, weren'tthey, Claire?
They were.
Oh, it was, it was reallylovely.
We've done performances to, um,smaller sort of community
groups, and we've also beenlucky enough that we've engaged
a lot of nurses as well.
Mm-hmm.
And you well very often findthat people will say afterwards,
oh, I was a nurse.
And I never really knew muchabout Betsy, but gosh, it was so
(34:04):
right.
Yeah.
She was ahead of her time inthinking about hygiene and food
and everything.
It was, it was wonderful to hearhow she stood up for nurses and,
and for nursing and for thetraining of nurses as well.
We were very lucky to havesupport from Donna Mead, who,
has done extensive research onBetsy, she was amazing.
(34:25):
She gave us lots of information,background information.
She had actually found Betsy'sgrave in London because Betsy,
was actually buried as a pauper.
Very sadly.
Although she published thisautobiography, it was literally
ignored.
It was completely ignored.
It was just written off as the,as the lies ramblings of a crazy
(34:45):
Welsh woman and, um, completelyignored and buried because of
course she was speaking truth topower.
She was criticizing thegovernment.
She was Welsh.
And at that time, the governmentwas trying very hard.
Hard to suppress Welshnationalism and the Welsh
language.
And they were installing Englishpriests in Welsh churches.
They were trying to suppress thelanguage and put the English
(35:06):
language in all education andstop Welsh language teaching.
And the last thing they wantedwas a revolutionary Welsh woman
publishing of this, um,autobiography about her time in
the Crimea.
And, so it was literally pushedaside, written off, buried in
history for literally.
Years and years and years.
And, and then eventually, DonnaMead, who, works for the RCN um,
(35:32):
she decided to do a lot ofresearch on Betsy and she went
and found the grave in Londonand had a, had a lovely service
for her and put up a lovelystone with her name on.
And,, the nurses went and had aservice and, commemorated her
life.
And that's how then theycampaigned for her to be, for
her name to be on the healthboard in North Wales.
So it's now named after her.
(35:53):
But that was apparently quite abattle as well because people
didn't know enough about her orher work.
So sounds really collaborative.
Like you were all, all liftingher up Yeah.
Bringing really, maybe a bitemotional.
This is really lovely.
Yeah.
That is gorgeous.
Yeah.
And, you know, however long ittook and that she didn't see it
(36:13):
in her lifetime Um, I spottedthat you have got a partnership,
I think is the right word, withnights out.
Where, where would people beable to,, book you to come and
do a production or where wouldpeople be able to come and see a
production of Daughter of Bala?
Yeah.
(36:33):
the Night Out scheme is actuallyrun by the Arts Council of
Wales.
It's a scheme that allows, um,volunteers or community groups
to actually book, production,without having to worry too much
about the, the whole costcovering the whole cost of it.
So, um, the idea is that the, ittakes theater to communities all
(36:56):
over Wales.
Small venues and they don't haveto worry about covering the
costs with their ticket salesbecause the Arts Council will
subsidize the production.
So, um, it's available to allorganizations, all volunteers,
maybe Village Halls, Ws,anywhere really that has a venue
that we can perform in.
And we don't need a huge space.
(37:16):
We're quite happy with a smallspace and our set is completely
portable.
Yeah, that's, this, it's areally great scheme actually run
by the arts council and we'rereally delighted that they
accepted our production onto it.
And, um, yeah, people can book,um, book well via the arts
council, but we have a link onour website as well.
Yes, that's, um, really driveabout Yeah.
(37:38):
Arts and stuff.
Yes.
They're very good at that kindof thing.
Yeah.
I think we're a very creativenation.
We've, we've also got anothercouple of performances coming
up, which is very exciting inAugust.
And, we're part of a theaterfestival that's gonna take place
on the ninth and 10th of Augustin Newport at, the Phyllis Mord,
which is a tiny little theaterspace,, which has been adapted
(38:00):
from a gentleman's toilet to ahistoric building.
It very, very tiny would feelabout this.
I.
So yes, we're, we're going to bepart of that festival and, uh,
have, you'll have to look on ourwebsite for more details about
that.
But, uh, yeah, excited aboutdoing that as well.
(38:21):
We'll link it in the, um, shownotes so we're quite happy to,
we're very flexible and we justlove it.
It's'cause we love it.
We love what we do.
We are really.
Privilege to do it And we justlove telling this story.
It's been so much fun and um,and Claire is utterly brilliant
as Betsy as well, and it isutterly brilliant.
(38:41):
Everybody else.
Aw.
I love them talking to otherpeople things.
'cause it is quite a nichething, isn't it?
These women from history thatyou dunno about.
Um, been our toe, learndifferent love it.
(39:06):
for spending I'm sorry Art.
as good as those six I'm, sorryabout that.
No, you've got nothing to bringto the table.
Nothing.
This has been wonderful.
Thank you very, very much.
Both of you.
As Vicki said, it's just, uh, ajoy to meet other people who are
(39:28):
excited about this and, and,want to tell these stories.
So I am super, super lookingforward to seeing the play.
Um, whether that is in a gentstoilets or not, wherever it may
be, I'll be there.
Um, so thank you so much for,for being being our guest today
(39:48):
and you're more than welcome.
Oh, thank you.
Really do appreciate it.
Thank you for inviting us.
audio2663295054 (40:00):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
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Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
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future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
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