August 19, 2025 • 40 mins
Games of Thrones, China's only female Emperor
In this episode of 'She Changed History,' Cara and Vicky go behind the curtain and delve into the remarkable life and legacy of Empress Wu, the only female emperor in Chinese history. They explore her determined rise to power during the Tang Dynasty, navigating a complex patriarchal society, and the controversial and often dark rumours surrounding her ascent. The discussion highlights her significant reforms, including the promotion of meritocracy, economic improvements, and the advancement of women's rights, and her influence on the spread of Buddhism in China. Despite the attempts to erase her achievements, Wu's impact on Chinese history remains profound and enduring.
00:00 Crafting Halloween Decorations
00:40 Introducing the Story of Wu Zetian
02:46 Setting the Scene: Tang Dynasty
07:21 Wu Zetian's Early Life and Rise
12:24 Intrigues and Power Struggles
16:21 Wu Zetian's Ruthless Ascendancy
20:05 Empress Dowager to Emperor
21:12 Imperial Imagery and Self-Representation
22:56 Meritocracy and Government Reforms
24:52 Strengthening Borders and Diplomacy
26:23 Economic Reforms and Tax Policies
27:32 Promotion of Buddhism and Cultural Influence
30:57 Advancement of Women's Rights
33:31 Legacy and Historical Perception
36:43 Conclusion and Reflections
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
and they're in the garden likedrying because it's air, air
clay.
So in the garden at the minute,there's just these little
ghosts, like some babies ghostski summer holidays too.
They'll be all ready forHalloween.
That's the idea.
That's adorable idea.
And then we've got some prettynapkins.
Am I gonna.
Cut out the flowers on thenapkins and then like deck apart
(00:29):
it.
So there'll be flowery ghostswith little tea lights.
That sounds adorable.
I'm gonna need to see pictures.
They, yeah, they dry.
They're time.
Yeah.
Let us begin the completelybegin previously unheard story
of right.
(00:51):
Hi Vicki.
How are you doing today?
Hi Kara.
I am good.
I'm fresh faced.
I'm ready to rerecord thisstory.
Let's go.
You know, try my best.
Well, in, in essence, recordingit for the first time, aren't
we?
So, um, that's true actually.
(01:11):
Technically, technically, we've,we've had a little sneaky
preview, but we haven't actuallyachieved a recording yet.
So this, this is a first um,cool.
For everybody else.
Just not for us.
So I will begin it if you areready.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's good.
It's an uncommon commoner thatcan rise from relative obscurity
(01:33):
to the pinnacle of power, and aneven rarer woman who can do it
in a society that would preferthat she stayed obedient and
invisible.
Today we're talking about WZien, the only female emperor in
China's history, ruthless andbrilliant.
She was a ruler whose story isboth about ambition.
(01:56):
And about the version of yourstory that people choose to tell
after you are gone.
So, sources for today are Asianstudies online on an article in
the newspaper India today.
The BBC history extra website,world history.org.
A YouTube channel called WorldHistory Documentaries and a book
(02:20):
called The Golden Road byWilliam Del Rimple.
Um, that's where I first heardof her because he talked about
her at his talk, so Oh, nice.
We will.
Yeah, it he was you.
I, I love him so much.
Yeah, I know.
It's slightly creepy.
How much?
And, um, and Anita Anon justfabulous.
Amazing, fabulous.
(02:41):
Uh, they're my, my, uh, idols inthis, in this sphere.
But, uh, on to our lady.
So we'll set the scene.
We are in the Tang Dynasty,which is, in many senses, it's a
golden age for China.
It's the Seventh century CEChina is a global force in
(03:01):
trade, in arts.
The capital Chang sees merchantsand diplomats from all over the
world coming to bring goods andto bring their own cultures and
ideas to China.
And maybe as a result of this,the.
The Tang Court is morecosmopolitan than many other
(03:24):
cultures of the day.
So women, for example, are ableto participate in local
government in lower roles.
They are able to ride horses inpublic, which doesn't sound like
a big deal, but.
Oh my God.
Isn't a given.
Right?
There, there's a sculpture thatI've got a picture of there
where there's a woman playingpolo.
(03:45):
They are engaged in sportsthere, the lioness of their day.
It's nice, it's a patriarchy,but it's not a patriarchy that
utterly subjugates women.
I guess compared to otherpatriarchies that we've spoken
about, this sounds slightly.
Slightly.
Yeah.
More relaxed.
Yeah.
And it's of its day.
There are cultures on earthtoday that aren't so open.
(04:08):
Yeah.
To, that's fair.
Equality.
So, you know, considering we'rein the seventh century, that is
something, however, thatopenness has its limits.
So in the Chinese politicalsystem.
There is a really clear dividingline.
There is somebody called theHuang who, and that is the
empress consort that is the wifeof the emperor.
(04:31):
There is then the Huang D thatis the emperor, the ruler, and
that is a man.
There is no, there is no conceptof emper.
It, it is just an emperor, theman emperor.
So, yep.
The role of emperor is the malerole.
Mm-hmm.
End of it.
That's it.
Yeah.
So when wanted to rule, shedidn't just want to be the wife
(04:57):
of the emperor or the mother ofthe emperor.
She wanted to be the Huang D.
She wanted to be the male.
Ah, I'm the, that's veryexciting.
I'm not bossy.
I'm the boss, right?
So, yes.
Her obstacle at the time wasthat although the tank court had
had some foreign influence, theprevailing religion, the state
(05:17):
philosophy, if you like, notreally, religion, I guess is
Confucianism and inConfucianism.
There are very clear and definedgender roles.
So there's a quote here to giveyou a kind of sense of the
structure she'd be up against.
Quote, women are to be led andto follow others.
A woman ruler would be asunnatural as having a headrow
(05:38):
like a rooster at daybreak, Ugh.
F off.
It's, I know, right?
I, there is a thing that hen androoster imagery I'm sure is in
the Christian Bible as well.
And I will never forget, I wasout mowing my lawn one day, like
in real life, actual mowing myactual lawn and this actual
woman as I was, I was mowing mylawn.
(06:00):
I was whistling, harming nobody.
This lady came over and she wentsomething like a whistling
woman.
A crowing hen is fit for neitherGod nor man.
And I was like, excuse me, it'snot your business.
It's got nothing to do with you,me, just walk your ass away a
(06:21):
little weirdo.
But that, that, oh, unsolicitedthat nature tells us, you know,
nature does a lot of things.
Birds eat their babies.
We don't need to be taking Epicube anyway.
So yes, unsolicited, Confuciusunfortunately had quite a lot of
sway, so that's what we're,that's what we're dealing with.
Fine.
However, Buddhism had traveledacross from India and was
(06:46):
starting to, make someincursions, particularly because
the emperor of the day when Wuwas born.
Had had some, Buddhist monks andscholars join his court as
advisors.
They were helping him with somemedical issues.
They were helping him because heliked them with some, ideas, and
(07:08):
he took a real interest and realshine to Buddhism and started to
practice it within his court.
So there's a little bit ofopenness here.
Mm.
But, um, I'm getting ahead ofmyself.
We'll circle back.
We'll talk a bit about w Zien.
Uh, she herself was born in sixtwenty four ce and she was born
(07:28):
into a relatively prosperousfamily, her.
Childhood was a little bitunusual in that she was taught
to read and write as well as themore sort of traditionally
feminine skills of playing musicor you know, being artistic.
So that level of education was alittle bit unusual and it gave
(07:50):
her a leg up and beyond thatshe's said to also have had
confidence.
Beauty and great instincts.
I'm reading this book at aminute.
A called of Thorn and Roses,which is like very popular in
the fantasy world.
And this woman who reminds me somuch of the main character in
that and.
(08:11):
But I don't think it's based onChinese histories.
I think it's based on Britishhistories.
Like that's where theinspiration comes from and it's
like an American author.
And it's so similar in terms ofthat she also becomes.
Hi lady like, so she fights forthis role of Empress, which is
what you just said earlier.
So I think it's very similar,which is very exciting.
(08:33):
These stories obviously are justin the air, that this is
something that has happenedthrough history and to the point
where it's being brought in as afable to sort of show how things
actually were.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Despite circles, despite lands,despite timeframes.
(08:54):
Yeah.
Wild, wild, wild, wild.
So that's what we're, that'swhat we're talking about.
And I think you've said before,the protagonist in your book is
quite young.
She also has that in commonbecause, oh god.
Woo leaves her home.
It is, it's the time.
I guess WW leaves her home at14, to join the Royal Court.
And the Emperor is T song and hetakes her on as one of his
(09:16):
consorts, which, uh, consort,concubine, it's a word that has
certain associations for us,right.
In the Tang.
Society in the Tang Dynasty, itwasn't a role that was only
about procreation or sex.
It was, um, a role that hadstatus.
(09:39):
Uh, it, it also was about thosethings.
But in addition to those, uh,services, uh, the women who were
cortisols concubines were also.
Expected to participate in courtlife.
They would be anything from, youknow, cleaning or maintaining,
(10:00):
the flowers to, playing musicalinstruments, to writing poetry.
Engaging in gentle diplomacy bywhich I am imagining them to be
along the lines of a sort ofgeisha who is pleasing to look
at and hospitable.
What a fascinating role that is.
Like yeah.
That you're not just a lady inwaiting.
(10:20):
You are a lady in waiting pro.
Like plus, yeah.
And you have, you have more tooffer and I suppose in a really
gross, patriarchal way, it'salso a big flex for the emperor
to go look at all thesebeautiful ladies who are falling
over themselves to bear mychildren and to, to help around,
you know, how lucky I am to haveall these women like.
(10:43):
Unlike cultures where that ismaybe kept behind a wall, like
you can't look at my women.
This is like, Hey, check it out.
Look at this.
Yeah, Yeah.
So in this case, and in manycases, the role of Essan was an
honor, to achieve that role.
I can see that.
And in Faru it was because herdad was a super loyal servant of
(11:07):
the emperor, and he was a Duke.
He was like, he had status.
Okay, okay.
So this was a gift to him asmuch as a reflection of her
abilities, but.
Her abilities did play into itbecause she, once she was in the
court was able to take anadministrative role because she
could read and and write.
Mm-hmm.
And they went of course.
Oh, this is great.
(11:28):
You know, and so there shepaperwork, right?
Like, but for her that's, here'scomplete training in statehood.
Like here's everything that wedo to run.
Yeah.
Fair.
The machine of the state.
Like, and Ana, who kind ofthrough that education.
Was able to just reach out andget a little bit more for
(11:49):
herself and start, you know,carving out a bit of a role.
It's one thing having theknowledge and one thing using
the knowledge, isn't it?
Yeah.
Because it sounds like there'slots of women in this like light
diplomacy role, but actually itfeels like we was the one to
apply, apply that know.
Yeah.
And I think nobody ever dreamedthat any woman ever would or
(12:10):
could.
But yeah.
This, this is where it gets alittle sticky because there's a
whole raft of stuff we're aboutto talk about, about how she
transferred the getting of theknowledge into the using of the
knowledge.
And so.
Very sadly for her, he, theemperor, uh, Ong died.
And then she being a, aconcubine who has never born him
(12:34):
a child Would traditionally havebeen hived off at this point,
sent away to religious service,head shaved.
You are like an UN woman at thispoint.
No man can ever look at you in,in a sexual way again.
It was to.
To make sure that any woman thathad been the emperors consort
(12:55):
could never be touched or seenby a man in that way again.
I see.
It was like a summary, like a,it wasn't a reward, it was like
a Oh.
Almost like in toing them withthe dead dude.
It was like, your life is nowover.
You'll meet him in heaven.
Your life is over.
Now.
Off, off you go.
Your, your life is over.
She's at this time, 15, maybe 16years old.
(13:16):
What?
Wild.
Oh my God.
So unsurprisingly, she had otherideas.
They, uh, sent her off.
This is where the rumor millbegins.
Okay.
So she's now in the Buddhistmonastery of T Zg, the the dead
emperor.
And his son Ga Zg has succeededhim.
He's Ga Z is the new emperor,depending on who you listen to.
(13:41):
Mm-hmm.
They either connected throughgrieving over their beloved ties
on or.
Ong and Wu already had arelationship.
The time, little sexy time, alittle sexy time by the time dad
died.
So one way or the other, whenTza dies, GA Zg ascends and Ga z
(14:09):
has a wife crate.
Um, a sentences ascendssentence.
A sentence.
Um.
He, his wife is called EmpressWang.
And Empress.
So he's married in as well.
He's married too.
He's married as well.
Oh.
It's a whole statehood.
They like don't have a choice.
Right.
It's just this is happening muchlike some of the royal families
you've talked about in in St.
(14:29):
Petersburg and so on and so on.
They're married off from thetime they're about four.
Yeah.
Right.
That's just happening.
So he's married to Empress Wang.
This all is gonna get a littlebit like made in Chelsea.
Now Empress Wang is jealous ofone of Gao Z's concubines.
This woman is, that makes senseto, to me, an exceptional
beauty.
Her, her name means somethinglike radiant pearl of the beauty
(14:51):
of the sky.
It's absurd.
She's obviously like beyondstuff.
La la Ula.
Wang wife Wang is jealous.
So wife Wang sees Woo over inthe monastery wife Wang.
Wife Wang sees Woo in themonastery, shaved head and
thinks, look at this poorwretched thing.
He seems a bit fond of her.
(15:12):
I'm gonna bring her back andit'll.
Dis it'll break up this interesthe has in this, in exceptionally
beautiful con con.
Oh, so she's like the, she'slike the distraction.
Let's make this happen.
We'll get her in as adistraction.
Exactly.
Unfortunately for Empress Wang,it all unravel.
(15:33):
Yeah, it guess from bad toworse, Wu gets brought back and
Ong is so enchanted by her.
That she, yeah.
'cause she's 15.
She's, yeah.
And, and she has anintelligence, uh, you know,
that's fair.
That's fair.
I was judging him, not her.
Yeah.
It could be that he, you know,maybe it was a real soul
(15:55):
connection, but what, forwhatever reason, he, uh,
leapfrogs her in status aboveall the other concubines who he
had sort of legally taken on.
Nobody likes this.
Everybody's good that joint.
W has several children with him,which okay, solidifies it, like
just locks her status real evenfurther.
(16:17):
And then a really dark period,in her story.
So this is a reallycontroversial.
Rumor and if you wanna read thisquote, it kind of sums it up.
Okay.
Quote, according to officialhistories, written by those with
a reason to BME Woo's name Wuherself smothered her newborn
(16:38):
daughter and blamed Empress one.
Who had been the last person tosee and hold the child
reportedly devastated.
Gal Zg had his empress lockedaway soon, followed by the other
favored consort who woo accusedof being an accomplice.
Oh my God.
That is scandal.
(16:58):
That is like, it is so dark.
Wow.
So wow.
Yeah.
Okay, so.
This newborn has died, which ishorrific, and, they're playing
the blame game and it feels likeWoo comes out on top.
That is the, that is the rumorthat w orchestrated it all.
There's no nice version of thisstory because the poor child and
(17:22):
then either.
Emper Wang did do it, whichfrankly it was a girl.
She would have no reason to dothat, or w her herself did it.
And in doing it, she disposed ofthe wife of the emperor and she
disposed of the concubine who hehad been.
(17:42):
Yeah.
All competition.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So, Ooh, that's a bit dark.
Let's just keep that in yourhead for the time being.
Okay.
Um.
It gets, it gets even nastier ifyou'd like to hear.
My gosh, really?
Yeah.
The really gross bit, which feelfree to not include this'cause
it is horrific.
E.
Not that that wasn't, it justkeeps going bad to worse.
(18:04):
It just keeps going.
Wu, apparently the rumor is, wasnot satisfied with Empress Wang
and her children being kickedout of the court, by the way.
She wanted it to go evenfurther.
So as well as having thembanished, she.
Asked that they be killed byhaving their limbs removed and
(18:24):
then being thrown into a vat ofwine to drown.
So, I'm sorry, utterly thatbrutal not true.
It can't, God, keep it in yourhead.
Put it like on a pinboard inyour head because we will talk
about these rumors at the endand, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that is just so outlandish.
Also, these are her.
(18:46):
Lover's children, right?
This is like, why would they'rehis children?
Why would commit this?
Why would he permit They didnothing even if their mother was
a murderer.
Yes, they are blamelesschildren, so they are also,
however, threats to woo's ownchildren.
Taking this from I, yeah, I cankind of see that.
But yeah, so it is expedient forher that they happen to be
(19:08):
banished and even more expedientif they're dead.
One to a hundred.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, alright.
Whatever the truth, which wecannot know.
W is now made wife of EmperorOng and Ong really quickly
becomes extremely dependent onher, especially after he
(19:29):
suffered a stroke.
So there is a quote here from myboy, William Fel.
Oh, if you go for it, try and dohim justice.
Please do.
Whenever the emperor attended tobusiness, emperor SW then hung a
curtain and listened behind it.
There was nothing aboutgovernment, great or small,
(19:50):
which she did not hear.
The whole power of the empirepassed into her hands, reward
and punishment, life and death.
She decided, ah, woo.
This is a rise, my friend.
Yeah.
She's, she knows what's going onand, um, Ong then dies and Wu,
(20:14):
her official role is EmperDowager.
So she's like the queen mother.
She is the mother of thetraditional successor to the
throne.
One of her sons, but okay.
Absolutely breaking with alltradition, absolute heresy.
Wu bypasses her sons and says,no, they're not going to be
(20:37):
emperor.
I am.
I am the emperor now.
And that's exactly whatEmperor's Matilda did, isn't it?
Yes.
They.
For whatever reason, judged thattheir own offspring were not
suitable.
They knew what needed to happenfor the best of the country or
for the best of themselves, andthey stepped up.
There are so many parallels.
Yeah.
And also maybe it is that, andmaybe it is like, I'm good
(20:59):
enough.
Why bypass me?
Yeah.
Like I'm, I'm going to do this.
I know what you need.
I'm capable to happen.
I've been listening.
I've been reading.
I, I know what is needed.
I've got a lovely, uh, paintinghere that shows her in full.
Oh, I love it.
Regalia.
(21:19):
Oh, it's like Disney villainstyle.
Um, she gives herself, yes.
Is Disney villain like a new,it's the imperial title.
Grace and just up a slight, youknow, there is definitely an air
of somebody who could, yes.
Love this.
Cut you love.
I want this.
That looks great.
She calls herself, she invents anew Chinese character, symbol
(21:42):
language.
Okay.
And this symbol that means her.
Translates to celestial empress,like the sun and the moon
illuminating the world.,Celestial empress, my god,
that's, that's beautiful.
That's some big old boots thatshe's.
Right?
Like that's a lot.
(22:03):
Feels a little Trumpy though,isn't it?
Just a little bit, yeah.
Yeah.
There is that.
There is that.
And more parallels there too.
More to come.
She stepped out.
She started to make changes inthe state.
She started to not just be afigurehead ruler.
She affected her power and a lotof the changes she made.
(22:25):
Outlived her.
So I thought having heard someof the, the worst rumors about a
human being, let alone thisparticular human being.
Mm-hmm.
Um, maybe we should hear some ofthe facts.
These are things that we knowhappened from historical
documents and.
Were how she used her power onceshe had it.
So as a history podcast, I wouldlike facts.
(22:48):
Facts are good.
Rumors are delicious, but factsare probably what we should
focus up on.
So here's, here's some of them,they're facts.
Uh, her, her first priority wasmeritocracy.
So whereas.
Roles within the court andwithin government.
Had previously gone to high bornpeople or were gifts like her
(23:12):
own role, you're, the daughterof a loyal subject, so you get a
leg up.
Mm-hmm.
She shifted that to a systemwhere people were tested for
proficiency in their area ofexpertise.
Hired on the basis of thatproficiency, irrespective of
their family's status.
So, oh, so if they were good atwhat they did, they got the job.
(23:34):
Oh, come on.
It seems simple.
Seems simple.
It's, I need more of this.
It pissed off a lot of people.
Oh, let me tell you why.
Oh, well, the high born peoplewho would've just been, oh, I
guess drifted into the role.
I know why.
Really devastated.
And it went in the face of thatsort of Confucian wisdom of you
are here, like almost like acaste system.
(23:57):
This is where you belong.
O only people of a certain, ohmy god, social class, have the
wherewithal.
To rule.
And when we've chatted aboutthis before, you mentioned a
certain prep school in Britain,there is that, yeah, Etonian, we
know best.
We know what's best for all ofyou, but you know who didn't
(24:17):
mind it?
Everybody else, everybody elsein the country went, this is
great.
We all have a fair chance andthings are getting better'cause
people who know what theythey're doing are in charge.
Imagine how far we would be as asociety.
How much further along if wejust let people who knew what
they were doing, do their jobsrather than imagine some prep
(24:38):
school.
Boy, ugh, I, I can't, I could doa whole pod on this.
I could just run for an hour.
Maybe we should.
Yeah.
Well, we're good for her.
That's huge.
Wasn't having it.
The next thing she looked at wasthe sovereignty of the Chinese
state because it's a complicatedgeographical area.
(25:00):
There are, Korea, Tibet, Japanon all the borders.
Each of them with designs onsome of Chinese land and
historical arguments about whoowns what.
She strengthened China'sborders, which again sounds a
bit Trumpy.
But she was making sure that shewasn't seeding any lands, and
she tried to do that throughdiplomacy, but she was not
(25:22):
afraid to do it throughviolence.
She would step up when war wasrequired.
And again, a theme that we hearabout a lot in our stories is
that we, they, the women alwaystry first.
They always try diplomacy.
The first and the.
The greater good solution first,but if you push them, women have
(25:44):
always been in war, have alwaysfought in wars, always.
So many fierce warriors like theAfrican Queens that you and Luke
talked about.
There was no sense of anybodyshrinking away.
They step up and she did thesame.
And because she did that, shewas able to reopen some of the
Silk Road trade routes that hadbeen closed during Ong and ONGs
(26:08):
rules.
Nice.
Because they had been attackedby bandits.
They were these lawless diseaseridden dangerous trails that she
made.
Viable.
And so economically things boostand that takes us nicely to her
next.
I love it.
Accomplishment, economic reform.
And this is probably the onethat really resonated with
(26:30):
everyday citizens the most.
Um, so there's a quote hereabout how she shook it up.
Woo.
Ordered the compilation offarming textbooks, the
constriction of irrigationsystems, duction of taxes, and
other.
Ian Reform measures in 6 9 5.
(26:51):
Wu offered the entire empire atax free year.
Her economic policies apparentlyimproved the life of peasants,
moving them towards prosperityand peace Tax Free year.
Yeah.
Yes, please.
Truly.
Yes, please, please, please.
She was able to make savings.
And oh, she was able torevitalize trade and stimulate
(27:15):
the economy to the extent, orshe couldn't afford it and
thought, we're just gonnaweather that and the government
itself will pay the taxes.
'cause this is gonna make peoplelove me either way.
Oh my gosh.
She's shrewd.
Operator.
Yes.
This is insane.
These are examples.
They are, I mean, yeah.
So, um, on top of that, shepromoted Buddhism beyond
(27:39):
Confucianism as the statereligion.
Now, Confucianism, as we'vesaid, saw women as inherently
inferior.
Mm-hmm.
Buddhism, however, had no suchrules.
There was no concept of that.
She, made it such a marker ofstatus and prosperity to be, a.
(28:01):
Reverent Buddhist that.
Having sculptures carved intothis massive, I think, limestone
wall, this naturally occurring,mountainside, basically carving
a Buddha was something thatfamilies of status did to sort
of, again, it's a flex, like, ohyeah, I've got a Buddha on the
Longman caves.
(28:21):
How about you and how big yourBuddha was, was kind of a, a
marker of how.
How, how devoted you were,obviously, but also like how
cool and rich.
Mm-hmm.
How much money you, so, right.
So Wu herself had a 57 footBuddha erected.
She's the Empress baby.
She's the empress.
She's gonna have the big oldBuddha.
(28:42):
Mm-hmm.
This big old Buddha was,although obviously the Buddha
himself was from India.
This Buddha looked like a TangChinese person.
They had Tang features, they hadTang clothing.
They also resembled.
Woo.
So the facial features of thisBuddha are said to be her.
(29:06):
And um, oh, it's my ego.
It is very ego, but it's alsovery shrewd.
So there's a quote here aboutwhy she might have.
Liked the branch of Buddhismthat she was promoting and why
she might have done this movewith the statue.
Okay.
All right.
Great.
Buddhist SEC encouraged itsfollowers to regard their
(29:28):
earthly ruler as therepresentative of their Ana
Buddha, Lord of the universe, abelief that we properly regarded
quite favorably as Empress.
Yes, she would.
So like, like a Pharaoh, she'ssaying I am.
God on earth, I have God onearth.
(29:48):
And by making the Buddha looklike herself, she's reinforcing
that concept.
So any threat to her rule is anoffense to God.
So she's like solidifying,doubling down.
Okay.
Understood.
Understood.
You'll like this one a bit more.
She also being, an artist and apoet, she founded a group, a
(30:11):
guild for the promotion of thearts.
Uh, it was okay.
I love that.
We love a name.
Here's a lovely name of thescholars of the Northern Gate,
and their entire purpose was topromote the arts.
She's very good at language,isn't she?
Yeah.
Like these phrases that she'scoming out with Scholars of the
Northern Gate and Celestial.
(30:32):
The Celestial em, us.
Yeah.
They're very, higher beingeverything seems to be God-like.
I think not, not by accident.
I bet she, she would've had agood career in PR in a different
time.
She, she definitely would'vebeen a brand advisor.
She's very good..
So, this brings us to the lastof the six points that thumb up
(30:54):
her rule and, very germane towhat we talk about.
Women's rights.
That was something that Woohoo,she woohoo.
Yeah.
She worked hard.
She respected women.
We think because of what shethen did, we, see her elevating
women's status right across theboard.
Nice.
So this quote sort of sums upthe steps she took to make that
(31:15):
happen.
Sweet.
Wu began a series of campaignsto uplift the position of women.
She advised scholars to writeand edit biographies of
exemplary women.
Oh.
To assist in, the attainment oftheir political objectives, Wu
asserted that the ideal rulerwas one who ruled as a mother
does over her children.
(31:35):
Oh, I love that.
Right.
She, that's the pod like in,that's a very dramatic way of
what this pod is.
The biographies of exemplarywomen to assist their
attainment.
Yes.
It's what you were seeking to doand it's what you talked about
with Maryanne and with so manyof the others women's stories
are.
So often not documented, notforgotten or not remembered
(31:58):
because it's assumed that who,well, who cares what you did?
Who does?
And she's stepped up.
Like you stepped up and went,no.
Well, I care and other peoplecare and we should all care.
We are going to be recordingthis.
So thank you so much forcomparing me to In the Celestial
Empress, that's quite big.
Well think about all the thingsshe said to have done before you
say thank you.
(32:19):
But that's such the pointthough, isn't it?
And this is where I'm headingwith this.
So important because you have.
All those accomplishments thatare documented, elements of a
culture's history, thishappened.
But then you also have herdetractors.
The more salacious interest inhistory going, Ooh, she was a
(32:40):
villain.
She was guilty of sexual excesseven when she was on the throne.
Yeah.
They said, oh, she forcedforeign envoys into her bed
before she would do any businessdealings with them.
Oh, for sure.
She took these young lovers inold age, and it was, you know,
age inappropriate, blah, blah,blah.
She was rapacious, sexuallyhungry and so on.
(33:03):
It's so like Catherine theGreat, so like Catherine the
Great.
Yeah.
If we can't stop you, we'regonna try to drag you down by
making Yeah.
Slut shaming rumors about you.
I know.
So what if you want sex whenyou're older?
Right.
How many male rulers did theseexact things without anyone even
questioning it, batting aneyelid.
(33:24):
It's just normal, you know?
It's good to be the king.
Well, it's also good to be thecelestial empress, so, huh.
The other slightly moredisturbing thing is the contrast
between.
The way she is said to a rose topower versus how she actually
(33:45):
used the power when she gotthere.
So we have to sort of try tosquare that circle of is this
woman a violent, ruthless,murderous, or is this woman
someone who cares for her peopleand the good of the state and
what's best?
Or is she both, is it an endsjustify the means situation?
(34:05):
It's very, very confusing tothink about her that way.
The stories don't match.
Yeah.
It does not add up.
So whatever the truth of thatis.
What we can say is that wooruled until she was 81, which is
nice.
It's nearly impossible to liveto 81 at that time.
(34:29):
Yeah.
Let alone to rule, let alone torule when you have pissed off
all these powerful, rich people.
So true.
Yeah.
She, she must have had like aprotection or something like
that.
She had something going for her.
After she died, however, the theemperors and people of status
were, uh, celebrated after theirdeath with a sculpture called a
(34:52):
steely.
And Okay.
Typically the steely was kind ofyour greatest hits.
Like, here lies so and so.
They did this, they did this,they did this.
Oh, nice.
Woo.
Steely was left blank.
What, what do you mean?
It was literally left blank.
There's a photo there of it.
It's just a great blank space.
(35:12):
Just a sheet of stone.
Oh.
As though to say whatever shethinks she did, she did nothing.
Oh, and I think that is someserious shade.
Some of the scholars speculatedthat it was a bit like, oh gosh,
I should know the names, but oneof the female pharaohs was
(35:34):
succeeded by someone whoimmediately had all of her
temples, all of her monumentsdestroyed because he was just so
butt hurt that a woman had donesome stuff.
So it, it's a bit like, doesn'tmatter what you do, ladies.
As soon as, as soon as you canbe erased, you can't fight back.
You're, you're gone.
But the people themselves didn'tforget her.
And there's a quote here aboutthat.
(35:56):
A Steely in She Shang.
Province shows that in time offlood or drought, people pray at
a temple in the name of thecelestial.
Empress Wu is still honoredtoday by an annual agricultural
festival there, especially onher birthday.
Ah, so she the working classpeople.
The one where she got the rightinformation to, she was
(36:17):
listening to the right people.
The people who were affected bythe tax free thing.
All of that they remember.
Mm, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
This is quite classes then,isn't it?
There's like two classes goingon.
Yeah, I think you're so right.
I think there is definitely thatand it's the, yeah, she did
things that they would neverhave dreamed that they would see
(36:39):
in their lifetime and theyhaven't forgotten.
Wow.
Yep.
So, ah, uh, we're coming to theend of it now.
The only other things I thinkthat I wanted to say, that we
have to think about whether weaccept the version of Zain.
(37:00):
The murder stories.
The murder stories.
So true.
The rumors, or do we see her asa brilliant reformer?
'Cause that was a baby girl,remember as well.
And so she supposedly killed ababy girl and then fixed all
these women's rights and, youknow.
Produce economic reform forchildren, including female
(37:20):
children.
I don't believe That'sinteresting, isn't it?
It doesn't add up.
It doesn't add up, but whateverwe believe.
I have a little cheesy line toend on, like I like to do and I
love it.
We have to admit that she was afascinating figure she refused
to stay behind the curtain.
That is, she did.
That is my cheesy ending.
(37:40):
That's so true.
It's very true and it's soright.
The Catherine, the greatparallels, the Empress Matilda
Parallels and Ana Parallels.
There were all of these womenwho ascended and made good
changes and then were, oh,white.
Yeah, but she, ugh, she did thisor she did that.
And it's like, did she though?
(38:01):
Or are you just talking shit?
'cause you don't like what shedid?
Like what fascinates me as wellwith these stories is how.
Wiped, they are like, you arenot even gonna write down.
Those achievements on thatsteely.
And it's just like Maryann lastweek where people were actually
throwing her away.
Her letters and illustrations,they were, it's such a physical
act of erosion.
(38:22):
And like with the paintings,like with Julie Le Leicester,
they're physically, well thismust, well this must have been a
man.
It's such a deliberate.
It's not.
They're forgotten.
I think maybe we need to changeour phrasing on the pod a little
bit.
Really?
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's been for forgotten.
That's a good, it's erased,isn't it?
They're very, very different.
It's, I'm amazed at howdeliberate everything is.
That is such a good point andit, it makes me wonder in this
(38:46):
case, like in the case of thepaintings, you had scholars go
back and very deliberately lookfor those erasure, look for
those thefts, and I think inthis case we have historical
evidence of how China prosperedunder her possibly because there
were open borders and trade.
(39:07):
People from other cultures wereable to say, no, I was there.
People were living well, no, Iwas there.
Women were being educated likethis happened.
Yeah, because the documentationin her own society probably
would've been destroyed bypeople who would've benefited
from saying, oh, a woman leaderis terrible.
(39:28):
They're just.
Like every, every accusation isa confession.
Isn't it interesting that all ofthe rumors that they start about
these women are about sexualvoracious and so on, and those
are such, oh, it's so boring.
Classically male.
Traits like so basic.
Yeah.
Like, come on dudes.
Like, do do better.
Do better, do better.
(39:50):
Yeah.
Don't be mediocre.
I love it.
Oh my gosh, what a story.
That was quite a rollercoaster.
Kara Rollercoaster.
There's a lot going on and I'msorry for all the violence
that's, unfortunately comes withthis story.
Important.
Yeah, it's very um.
Everything seems to be sodramatic.
(40:10):
You know what I mean?
Like the, the drama of therumors and then the, the upswing
of that, of the drama of acelestial impress, and then
creating your own Chinesecharacter because there's
nothing that suits me in them.
You know?
Every attacks free year,everything's very extremist.
Isn't it?
Big in the story?
Big?
She went big, she mix it.
(40:31):
The rollercoaster.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
audio2663295054 (40:36):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
and they're in the garden likedrying because it's air, air
clay.
So in the garden at the minute,there's just these little
ghosts, like some babies ghostski summer holidays too.
They'll be all ready forHalloween.
That's the idea.
That's adorable idea.
And then we've got some prettynapkins.
Am I gonna.
Cut out the flowers on thenapkins and then like deck apart
(00:29):
it.
So there'll be flowery ghostswith little tea lights.
That sounds adorable.
I'm gonna need to see pictures.
They, yeah, they dry.
They're time.
Yeah.
Let us begin the completelybegin previously unheard story
of right.
(00:51):
Hi Vicki.
How are you doing today?
Hi Kara.
I am good.
I'm fresh faced.
I'm ready to rerecord thisstory.
Let's go.
You know, try my best.
Well, in, in essence, recordingit for the first time, aren't
we?
So, um, that's true actually.
(01:11):
Technically, technically, we've,we've had a little sneaky
preview, but we haven't actuallyachieved a recording yet.
So this, this is a first um,cool.
For everybody else.
Just not for us.
So I will begin it if you areready.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's good.
It's an uncommon commoner thatcan rise from relative obscurity
(01:33):
to the pinnacle of power, and aneven rarer woman who can do it
in a society that would preferthat she stayed obedient and
invisible.
Today we're talking about WZien, the only female emperor in
China's history, ruthless andbrilliant.
She was a ruler whose story isboth about ambition.
(01:56):
And about the version of yourstory that people choose to tell
after you are gone.
So, sources for today are Asianstudies online on an article in
the newspaper India today.
The BBC history extra website,world history.org.
A YouTube channel called WorldHistory Documentaries and a book
(02:20):
called The Golden Road byWilliam Del Rimple.
Um, that's where I first heardof her because he talked about
her at his talk, so Oh, nice.
We will.
Yeah, it he was you.
I, I love him so much.
Yeah, I know.
It's slightly creepy.
How much?
And, um, and Anita Anon justfabulous.
Amazing, fabulous.
(02:41):
Uh, they're my, my, uh, idols inthis, in this sphere.
But, uh, on to our lady.
So we'll set the scene.
We are in the Tang Dynasty,which is, in many senses, it's a
golden age for China.
It's the Seventh century CEChina is a global force in
(03:01):
trade, in arts.
The capital Chang sees merchantsand diplomats from all over the
world coming to bring goods andto bring their own cultures and
ideas to China.
And maybe as a result of this,the.
The Tang Court is morecosmopolitan than many other
(03:24):
cultures of the day.
So women, for example, are ableto participate in local
government in lower roles.
They are able to ride horses inpublic, which doesn't sound like
a big deal, but.
Oh my God.
Isn't a given.
Right?
There, there's a sculpture thatI've got a picture of there
where there's a woman playingpolo.
(03:45):
They are engaged in sportsthere, the lioness of their day.
It's nice, it's a patriarchy,but it's not a patriarchy that
utterly subjugates women.
I guess compared to otherpatriarchies that we've spoken
about, this sounds slightly.
Slightly.
Yeah.
More relaxed.
Yeah.
And it's of its day.
There are cultures on earthtoday that aren't so open.
(04:08):
Yeah.
To, that's fair.
Equality.
So, you know, considering we'rein the seventh century, that is
something, however, thatopenness has its limits.
So in the Chinese politicalsystem.
There is a really clear dividingline.
There is somebody called theHuang who, and that is the
empress consort that is the wifeof the emperor.
(04:31):
There is then the Huang D thatis the emperor, the ruler, and
that is a man.
There is no, there is no conceptof emper.
It, it is just an emperor, theman emperor.
So, yep.
The role of emperor is the malerole.
Mm-hmm.
End of it.
That's it.
Yeah.
So when wanted to rule, shedidn't just want to be the wife
(04:57):
of the emperor or the mother ofthe emperor.
She wanted to be the Huang D.
She wanted to be the male.
Ah, I'm the, that's veryexciting.
I'm not bossy.
I'm the boss, right?
So, yes.
Her obstacle at the time wasthat although the tank court had
had some foreign influence, theprevailing religion, the state
(05:17):
philosophy, if you like, notreally, religion, I guess is
Confucianism and inConfucianism.
There are very clear and definedgender roles.
So there's a quote here to giveyou a kind of sense of the
structure she'd be up against.
Quote, women are to be led andto follow others.
A woman ruler would be asunnatural as having a headrow
(05:38):
like a rooster at daybreak, Ugh.
F off.
It's, I know, right?
I, there is a thing that hen androoster imagery I'm sure is in
the Christian Bible as well.
And I will never forget, I wasout mowing my lawn one day, like
in real life, actual mowing myactual lawn and this actual
woman as I was, I was mowing mylawn.
(06:00):
I was whistling, harming nobody.
This lady came over and she wentsomething like a whistling
woman.
A crowing hen is fit for neitherGod nor man.
And I was like, excuse me, it'snot your business.
It's got nothing to do with you,me, just walk your ass away a
(06:21):
little weirdo.
But that, that, oh, unsolicitedthat nature tells us, you know,
nature does a lot of things.
Birds eat their babies.
We don't need to be taking Epicube anyway.
So yes, unsolicited, Confuciusunfortunately had quite a lot of
sway, so that's what we're,that's what we're dealing with.
Fine.
However, Buddhism had traveledacross from India and was
(06:46):
starting to, make someincursions, particularly because
the emperor of the day when Wuwas born.
Had had some, Buddhist monks andscholars join his court as
advisors.
They were helping him with somemedical issues.
They were helping him because heliked them with some, ideas, and
(07:08):
he took a real interest and realshine to Buddhism and started to
practice it within his court.
So there's a little bit ofopenness here.
Mm.
But, um, I'm getting ahead ofmyself.
We'll circle back.
We'll talk a bit about w Zien.
Uh, she herself was born in sixtwenty four ce and she was born
(07:28):
into a relatively prosperousfamily, her.
Childhood was a little bitunusual in that she was taught
to read and write as well as themore sort of traditionally
feminine skills of playing musicor you know, being artistic.
So that level of education was alittle bit unusual and it gave
(07:50):
her a leg up and beyond thatshe's said to also have had
confidence.
Beauty and great instincts.
I'm reading this book at aminute.
A called of Thorn and Roses,which is like very popular in
the fantasy world.
And this woman who reminds me somuch of the main character in
that and.
(08:11):
But I don't think it's based onChinese histories.
I think it's based on Britishhistories.
Like that's where theinspiration comes from and it's
like an American author.
And it's so similar in terms ofthat she also becomes.
Hi lady like, so she fights forthis role of Empress, which is
what you just said earlier.
So I think it's very similar,which is very exciting.
(08:33):
These stories obviously are justin the air, that this is
something that has happenedthrough history and to the point
where it's being brought in as afable to sort of show how things
actually were.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Despite circles, despite lands,despite timeframes.
(08:54):
Yeah.
Wild, wild, wild, wild.
So that's what we're, that'swhat we're talking about.
And I think you've said before,the protagonist in your book is
quite young.
She also has that in commonbecause, oh god.
Woo leaves her home.
It is, it's the time.
I guess WW leaves her home at14, to join the Royal Court.
And the Emperor is T song and hetakes her on as one of his
(09:16):
consorts, which, uh, consort,concubine, it's a word that has
certain associations for us,right.
In the Tang.
Society in the Tang Dynasty, itwasn't a role that was only
about procreation or sex.
It was, um, a role that hadstatus.
(09:39):
Uh, it, it also was about thosethings.
But in addition to those, uh,services, uh, the women who were
cortisols concubines were also.
Expected to participate in courtlife.
They would be anything from, youknow, cleaning or maintaining,
(10:00):
the flowers to, playing musicalinstruments, to writing poetry.
Engaging in gentle diplomacy bywhich I am imagining them to be
along the lines of a sort ofgeisha who is pleasing to look
at and hospitable.
What a fascinating role that is.
Like yeah.
That you're not just a lady inwaiting.
(10:20):
You are a lady in waiting pro.
Like plus, yeah.
And you have, you have more tooffer and I suppose in a really
gross, patriarchal way, it'salso a big flex for the emperor
to go look at all thesebeautiful ladies who are falling
over themselves to bear mychildren and to, to help around,
you know, how lucky I am to haveall these women like.
(10:43):
Unlike cultures where that ismaybe kept behind a wall, like
you can't look at my women.
This is like, Hey, check it out.
Look at this.
Yeah, Yeah.
So in this case, and in manycases, the role of Essan was an
honor, to achieve that role.
I can see that.
And in Faru it was because herdad was a super loyal servant of
(11:07):
the emperor, and he was a Duke.
He was like, he had status.
Okay, okay.
So this was a gift to him asmuch as a reflection of her
abilities, but.
Her abilities did play into itbecause she, once she was in the
court was able to take anadministrative role because she
could read and and write.
Mm-hmm.
And they went of course.
Oh, this is great.
(11:28):
You know, and so there shepaperwork, right?
Like, but for her that's, here'scomplete training in statehood.
Like here's everything that wedo to run.
Yeah.
Fair.
The machine of the state.
Like, and Ana, who kind ofthrough that education.
Was able to just reach out andget a little bit more for
(11:49):
herself and start, you know,carving out a bit of a role.
It's one thing having theknowledge and one thing using
the knowledge, isn't it?
Yeah.
Because it sounds like there'slots of women in this like light
diplomacy role, but actually itfeels like we was the one to
apply, apply that know.
Yeah.
And I think nobody ever dreamedthat any woman ever would or
(12:10):
could.
But yeah.
This, this is where it gets alittle sticky because there's a
whole raft of stuff we're aboutto talk about, about how she
transferred the getting of theknowledge into the using of the
knowledge.
And so.
Very sadly for her, he, theemperor, uh, Ong died.
And then she being a, aconcubine who has never born him
(12:34):
a child Would traditionally havebeen hived off at this point,
sent away to religious service,head shaved.
You are like an UN woman at thispoint.
No man can ever look at you in,in a sexual way again.
It was to.
To make sure that any woman thathad been the emperors consort
(12:55):
could never be touched or seenby a man in that way again.
I see.
It was like a summary, like a,it wasn't a reward, it was like
a Oh.
Almost like in toing them withthe dead dude.
It was like, your life is nowover.
You'll meet him in heaven.
Your life is over.
Now.
Off, off you go.
Your, your life is over.
She's at this time, 15, maybe 16years old.
(13:16):
What?
Wild.
Oh my God.
So unsurprisingly, she had otherideas.
They, uh, sent her off.
This is where the rumor millbegins.
Okay.
So she's now in the Buddhistmonastery of T Zg, the the dead
emperor.
And his son Ga Zg has succeededhim.
He's Ga Z is the new emperor,depending on who you listen to.
(13:41):
Mm-hmm.
They either connected throughgrieving over their beloved ties
on or.
Ong and Wu already had arelationship.
The time, little sexy time, alittle sexy time by the time dad
died.
So one way or the other, whenTza dies, GA Zg ascends and Ga z
(14:09):
has a wife crate.
Um, a sentences ascendssentence.
A sentence.
Um.
He, his wife is called EmpressWang.
And Empress.
So he's married in as well.
He's married too.
He's married as well.
Oh.
It's a whole statehood.
They like don't have a choice.
Right.
It's just this is happening muchlike some of the royal families
you've talked about in in St.
(14:29):
Petersburg and so on and so on.
They're married off from thetime they're about four.
Yeah.
Right.
That's just happening.
So he's married to Empress Wang.
This all is gonna get a littlebit like made in Chelsea.
Now Empress Wang is jealous ofone of Gao Z's concubines.
This woman is, that makes senseto, to me, an exceptional
beauty.
Her, her name means somethinglike radiant pearl of the beauty
(14:51):
of the sky.
It's absurd.
She's obviously like beyondstuff.
La la Ula.
Wang wife Wang is jealous.
So wife Wang sees Woo over inthe monastery wife Wang.
Wife Wang sees Woo in themonastery, shaved head and
thinks, look at this poorwretched thing.
He seems a bit fond of her.
(15:12):
I'm gonna bring her back andit'll.
Dis it'll break up this interesthe has in this, in exceptionally
beautiful con con.
Oh, so she's like the, she'slike the distraction.
Let's make this happen.
We'll get her in as adistraction.
Exactly.
Unfortunately for Empress Wang,it all unravel.
(15:33):
Yeah, it guess from bad toworse, Wu gets brought back and
Ong is so enchanted by her.
That she, yeah.
'cause she's 15.
She's, yeah.
And, and she has anintelligence, uh, you know,
that's fair.
That's fair.
I was judging him, not her.
Yeah.
It could be that he, you know,maybe it was a real soul
(15:55):
connection, but what, forwhatever reason, he, uh,
leapfrogs her in status aboveall the other concubines who he
had sort of legally taken on.
Nobody likes this.
Everybody's good that joint.
W has several children with him,which okay, solidifies it, like
just locks her status real evenfurther.
(16:17):
And then a really dark period,in her story.
So this is a reallycontroversial.
Rumor and if you wanna read thisquote, it kind of sums it up.
Okay.
Quote, according to officialhistories, written by those with
a reason to BME Woo's name Wuherself smothered her newborn
(16:38):
daughter and blamed Empress one.
Who had been the last person tosee and hold the child
reportedly devastated.
Gal Zg had his empress lockedaway soon, followed by the other
favored consort who woo accusedof being an accomplice.
Oh my God.
That is scandal.
(16:58):
That is like, it is so dark.
Wow.
So wow.
Yeah.
Okay, so.
This newborn has died, which ishorrific, and, they're playing
the blame game and it feels likeWoo comes out on top.
That is the, that is the rumorthat w orchestrated it all.
There's no nice version of thisstory because the poor child and
(17:22):
then either.
Emper Wang did do it, whichfrankly it was a girl.
She would have no reason to dothat, or w her herself did it.
And in doing it, she disposed ofthe wife of the emperor and she
disposed of the concubine who hehad been.
(17:42):
Yeah.
All competition.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So, Ooh, that's a bit dark.
Let's just keep that in yourhead for the time being.
Okay.
Um.
It gets, it gets even nastier ifyou'd like to hear.
My gosh, really?
Yeah.
The really gross bit, which feelfree to not include this'cause
it is horrific.
E.
Not that that wasn't, it justkeeps going bad to worse.
(18:04):
It just keeps going.
Wu, apparently the rumor is, wasnot satisfied with Empress Wang
and her children being kickedout of the court, by the way.
She wanted it to go evenfurther.
So as well as having thembanished, she.
Asked that they be killed byhaving their limbs removed and
(18:24):
then being thrown into a vat ofwine to drown.
So, I'm sorry, utterly thatbrutal not true.
It can't, God, keep it in yourhead.
Put it like on a pinboard inyour head because we will talk
about these rumors at the endand, okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that is just so outlandish.
Also, these are her.
(18:46):
Lover's children, right?
This is like, why would they'rehis children?
Why would commit this?
Why would he permit They didnothing even if their mother was
a murderer.
Yes, they are blamelesschildren, so they are also,
however, threats to woo's ownchildren.
Taking this from I, yeah, I cankind of see that.
But yeah, so it is expedient forher that they happen to be
(19:08):
banished and even more expedientif they're dead.
One to a hundred.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, alright.
Whatever the truth, which wecannot know.
W is now made wife of EmperorOng and Ong really quickly
becomes extremely dependent onher, especially after he
(19:29):
suffered a stroke.
So there is a quote here from myboy, William Fel.
Oh, if you go for it, try and dohim justice.
Please do.
Whenever the emperor attended tobusiness, emperor SW then hung a
curtain and listened behind it.
There was nothing aboutgovernment, great or small,
(19:50):
which she did not hear.
The whole power of the empirepassed into her hands, reward
and punishment, life and death.
She decided, ah, woo.
This is a rise, my friend.
Yeah.
She's, she knows what's going onand, um, Ong then dies and Wu,
(20:14):
her official role is EmperDowager.
So she's like the queen mother.
She is the mother of thetraditional successor to the
throne.
One of her sons, but okay.
Absolutely breaking with alltradition, absolute heresy.
Wu bypasses her sons and says,no, they're not going to be
(20:37):
emperor.
I am.
I am the emperor now.
And that's exactly whatEmperor's Matilda did, isn't it?
Yes.
They.
For whatever reason, judged thattheir own offspring were not
suitable.
They knew what needed to happenfor the best of the country or
for the best of themselves, andthey stepped up.
There are so many parallels.
Yeah.
And also maybe it is that, andmaybe it is like, I'm good
(20:59):
enough.
Why bypass me?
Yeah.
Like I'm, I'm going to do this.
I know what you need.
I'm capable to happen.
I've been listening.
I've been reading.
I, I know what is needed.
I've got a lovely, uh, paintinghere that shows her in full.
Oh, I love it.
Regalia.
(21:19):
Oh, it's like Disney villainstyle.
Um, she gives herself, yes.
Is Disney villain like a new,it's the imperial title.
Grace and just up a slight, youknow, there is definitely an air
of somebody who could, yes.
Love this.
Cut you love.
I want this.
That looks great.
She calls herself, she invents anew Chinese character, symbol
(21:42):
language.
Okay.
And this symbol that means her.
Translates to celestial empress,like the sun and the moon
illuminating the world.,Celestial empress, my god,
that's, that's beautiful.
That's some big old boots thatshe's.
Right?
Like that's a lot.
(22:03):
Feels a little Trumpy though,isn't it?
Just a little bit, yeah.
Yeah.
There is that.
There is that.
And more parallels there too.
More to come.
She stepped out.
She started to make changes inthe state.
She started to not just be afigurehead ruler.
She affected her power and a lotof the changes she made.
(22:25):
Outlived her.
So I thought having heard someof the, the worst rumors about a
human being, let alone thisparticular human being.
Mm-hmm.
Um, maybe we should hear some ofthe facts.
These are things that we knowhappened from historical
documents and.
Were how she used her power onceshe had it.
So as a history podcast, I wouldlike facts.
(22:48):
Facts are good.
Rumors are delicious, but factsare probably what we should
focus up on.
So here's, here's some of them,they're facts.
Uh, her, her first priority wasmeritocracy.
So whereas.
Roles within the court andwithin government.
Had previously gone to high bornpeople or were gifts like her
(23:12):
own role, you're, the daughterof a loyal subject, so you get a
leg up.
Mm-hmm.
She shifted that to a systemwhere people were tested for
proficiency in their area ofexpertise.
Hired on the basis of thatproficiency, irrespective of
their family's status.
So, oh, so if they were good atwhat they did, they got the job.
(23:34):
Oh, come on.
It seems simple.
Seems simple.
It's, I need more of this.
It pissed off a lot of people.
Oh, let me tell you why.
Oh, well, the high born peoplewho would've just been, oh, I
guess drifted into the role.
I know why.
Really devastated.
And it went in the face of thatsort of Confucian wisdom of you
are here, like almost like acaste system.
(23:57):
This is where you belong.
O only people of a certain, ohmy god, social class, have the
wherewithal.
To rule.
And when we've chatted aboutthis before, you mentioned a
certain prep school in Britain,there is that, yeah, Etonian, we
know best.
We know what's best for all ofyou, but you know who didn't
(24:17):
mind it?
Everybody else, everybody elsein the country went, this is
great.
We all have a fair chance andthings are getting better'cause
people who know what theythey're doing are in charge.
Imagine how far we would be as asociety.
How much further along if wejust let people who knew what
they were doing, do their jobsrather than imagine some prep
(24:38):
school.
Boy, ugh, I, I can't, I could doa whole pod on this.
I could just run for an hour.
Maybe we should.
Yeah.
Well, we're good for her.
That's huge.
Wasn't having it.
The next thing she looked at wasthe sovereignty of the Chinese
state because it's a complicatedgeographical area.
(25:00):
There are, Korea, Tibet, Japanon all the borders.
Each of them with designs onsome of Chinese land and
historical arguments about whoowns what.
She strengthened China'sborders, which again sounds a
bit Trumpy.
But she was making sure that shewasn't seeding any lands, and
she tried to do that throughdiplomacy, but she was not
(25:22):
afraid to do it throughviolence.
She would step up when war wasrequired.
And again, a theme that we hearabout a lot in our stories is
that we, they, the women alwaystry first.
They always try diplomacy.
The first and the.
The greater good solution first,but if you push them, women have
(25:44):
always been in war, have alwaysfought in wars, always.
So many fierce warriors like theAfrican Queens that you and Luke
talked about.
There was no sense of anybodyshrinking away.
They step up and she did thesame.
And because she did that, shewas able to reopen some of the
Silk Road trade routes that hadbeen closed during Ong and ONGs
(26:08):
rules.
Nice.
Because they had been attackedby bandits.
They were these lawless diseaseridden dangerous trails that she
made.
Viable.
And so economically things boostand that takes us nicely to her
next.
I love it.
Accomplishment, economic reform.
And this is probably the onethat really resonated with
(26:30):
everyday citizens the most.
Um, so there's a quote hereabout how she shook it up.
Woo.
Ordered the compilation offarming textbooks, the
constriction of irrigationsystems, duction of taxes, and
other.
Ian Reform measures in 6 9 5.
(26:51):
Wu offered the entire empire atax free year.
Her economic policies apparentlyimproved the life of peasants,
moving them towards prosperityand peace Tax Free year.
Yeah.
Yes, please.
Truly.
Yes, please, please, please.
She was able to make savings.
And oh, she was able torevitalize trade and stimulate
(27:15):
the economy to the extent, orshe couldn't afford it and
thought, we're just gonnaweather that and the government
itself will pay the taxes.
'cause this is gonna make peoplelove me either way.
Oh my gosh.
She's shrewd.
Operator.
Yes.
This is insane.
These are examples.
They are, I mean, yeah.
So, um, on top of that, shepromoted Buddhism beyond
(27:39):
Confucianism as the statereligion.
Now, Confucianism, as we'vesaid, saw women as inherently
inferior.
Mm-hmm.
Buddhism, however, had no suchrules.
There was no concept of that.
She, made it such a marker ofstatus and prosperity to be, a.
(28:01):
Reverent Buddhist that.
Having sculptures carved intothis massive, I think, limestone
wall, this naturally occurring,mountainside, basically carving
a Buddha was something thatfamilies of status did to sort
of, again, it's a flex, like, ohyeah, I've got a Buddha on the
Longman caves.
(28:21):
How about you and how big yourBuddha was, was kind of a, a
marker of how.
How, how devoted you were,obviously, but also like how
cool and rich.
Mm-hmm.
How much money you, so, right.
So Wu herself had a 57 footBuddha erected.
She's the Empress baby.
She's the empress.
She's gonna have the big oldBuddha.
(28:42):
Mm-hmm.
This big old Buddha was,although obviously the Buddha
himself was from India.
This Buddha looked like a TangChinese person.
They had Tang features, they hadTang clothing.
They also resembled.
Woo.
So the facial features of thisBuddha are said to be her.
(29:06):
And um, oh, it's my ego.
It is very ego, but it's alsovery shrewd.
So there's a quote here aboutwhy she might have.
Liked the branch of Buddhismthat she was promoting and why
she might have done this movewith the statue.
Okay.
All right.
Great.
Buddhist SEC encouraged itsfollowers to regard their
(29:28):
earthly ruler as therepresentative of their Ana
Buddha, Lord of the universe, abelief that we properly regarded
quite favorably as Empress.
Yes, she would.
So like, like a Pharaoh, she'ssaying I am.
God on earth, I have God onearth.
(29:48):
And by making the Buddha looklike herself, she's reinforcing
that concept.
So any threat to her rule is anoffense to God.
So she's like solidifying,doubling down.
Okay.
Understood.
Understood.
You'll like this one a bit more.
She also being, an artist and apoet, she founded a group, a
(30:11):
guild for the promotion of thearts.
Uh, it was okay.
I love that.
We love a name.
Here's a lovely name of thescholars of the Northern Gate,
and their entire purpose was topromote the arts.
She's very good at language,isn't she?
Yeah.
Like these phrases that she'scoming out with Scholars of the
Northern Gate and Celestial.
(30:32):
The Celestial em, us.
Yeah.
They're very, higher beingeverything seems to be God-like.
I think not, not by accident.
I bet she, she would've had agood career in PR in a different
time.
She, she definitely would'vebeen a brand advisor.
She's very good..
So, this brings us to the lastof the six points that thumb up
(30:54):
her rule and, very germane towhat we talk about.
Women's rights.
That was something that Woohoo,she woohoo.
Yeah.
She worked hard.
She respected women.
We think because of what shethen did, we, see her elevating
women's status right across theboard.
Nice.
So this quote sort of sums upthe steps she took to make that
(31:15):
happen.
Sweet.
Wu began a series of campaignsto uplift the position of women.
She advised scholars to writeand edit biographies of
exemplary women.
Oh.
To assist in, the attainment oftheir political objectives, Wu
asserted that the ideal rulerwas one who ruled as a mother
does over her children.
(31:35):
Oh, I love that.
Right.
She, that's the pod like in,that's a very dramatic way of
what this pod is.
The biographies of exemplarywomen to assist their
attainment.
Yes.
It's what you were seeking to doand it's what you talked about
with Maryanne and with so manyof the others women's stories
are.
So often not documented, notforgotten or not remembered
(31:58):
because it's assumed that who,well, who cares what you did?
Who does?
And she's stepped up.
Like you stepped up and went,no.
Well, I care and other peoplecare and we should all care.
We are going to be recordingthis.
So thank you so much forcomparing me to In the Celestial
Empress, that's quite big.
Well think about all the thingsshe said to have done before you
say thank you.
(32:19):
But that's such the pointthough, isn't it?
And this is where I'm headingwith this.
So important because you have.
All those accomplishments thatare documented, elements of a
culture's history, thishappened.
But then you also have herdetractors.
The more salacious interest inhistory going, Ooh, she was a
(32:40):
villain.
She was guilty of sexual excesseven when she was on the throne.
Yeah.
They said, oh, she forcedforeign envoys into her bed
before she would do any businessdealings with them.
Oh, for sure.
She took these young lovers inold age, and it was, you know,
age inappropriate, blah, blah,blah.
She was rapacious, sexuallyhungry and so on.
(33:03):
It's so like Catherine theGreat, so like Catherine the
Great.
Yeah.
If we can't stop you, we'regonna try to drag you down by
making Yeah.
Slut shaming rumors about you.
I know.
So what if you want sex whenyou're older?
Right.
How many male rulers did theseexact things without anyone even
questioning it, batting aneyelid.
(33:24):
It's just normal, you know?
It's good to be the king.
Well, it's also good to be thecelestial empress, so, huh.
The other slightly moredisturbing thing is the contrast
between.
The way she is said to a rose topower versus how she actually
(33:45):
used the power when she gotthere.
So we have to sort of try tosquare that circle of is this
woman a violent, ruthless,murderous, or is this woman
someone who cares for her peopleand the good of the state and
what's best?
Or is she both, is it an endsjustify the means situation?
(34:05):
It's very, very confusing tothink about her that way.
The stories don't match.
Yeah.
It does not add up.
So whatever the truth of thatis.
What we can say is that wooruled until she was 81, which is
nice.
It's nearly impossible to liveto 81 at that time.
(34:29):
Yeah.
Let alone to rule, let alone torule when you have pissed off
all these powerful, rich people.
So true.
Yeah.
She, she must have had like aprotection or something like
that.
She had something going for her.
After she died, however, the theemperors and people of status
were, uh, celebrated after theirdeath with a sculpture called a
(34:52):
steely.
And Okay.
Typically the steely was kind ofyour greatest hits.
Like, here lies so and so.
They did this, they did this,they did this.
Oh, nice.
Woo.
Steely was left blank.
What, what do you mean?
It was literally left blank.
There's a photo there of it.
It's just a great blank space.
(35:12):
Just a sheet of stone.
Oh.
As though to say whatever shethinks she did, she did nothing.
Oh, and I think that is someserious shade.
Some of the scholars speculatedthat it was a bit like, oh gosh,
I should know the names, but oneof the female pharaohs was
(35:34):
succeeded by someone whoimmediately had all of her
temples, all of her monumentsdestroyed because he was just so
butt hurt that a woman had donesome stuff.
So it, it's a bit like, doesn'tmatter what you do, ladies.
As soon as, as soon as you canbe erased, you can't fight back.
You're, you're gone.
But the people themselves didn'tforget her.
And there's a quote here aboutthat.
(35:56):
A Steely in She Shang.
Province shows that in time offlood or drought, people pray at
a temple in the name of thecelestial.
Empress Wu is still honoredtoday by an annual agricultural
festival there, especially onher birthday.
Ah, so she the working classpeople.
The one where she got the rightinformation to, she was
(36:17):
listening to the right people.
The people who were affected bythe tax free thing.
All of that they remember.
Mm, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
This is quite classes then,isn't it?
There's like two classes goingon.
Yeah, I think you're so right.
I think there is definitely thatand it's the, yeah, she did
things that they would neverhave dreamed that they would see
(36:39):
in their lifetime and theyhaven't forgotten.
Wow.
Yep.
So, ah, uh, we're coming to theend of it now.
The only other things I thinkthat I wanted to say, that we
have to think about whether weaccept the version of Zain.
(37:00):
The murder stories.
The murder stories.
So true.
The rumors, or do we see her asa brilliant reformer?
'Cause that was a baby girl,remember as well.
And so she supposedly killed ababy girl and then fixed all
these women's rights and, youknow.
Produce economic reform forchildren, including female
(37:20):
children.
I don't believe That'sinteresting, isn't it?
It doesn't add up.
It doesn't add up, but whateverwe believe.
I have a little cheesy line toend on, like I like to do and I
love it.
We have to admit that she was afascinating figure she refused
to stay behind the curtain.
That is, she did.
That is my cheesy ending.
(37:40):
That's so true.
It's very true and it's soright.
The Catherine, the greatparallels, the Empress Matilda
Parallels and Ana Parallels.
There were all of these womenwho ascended and made good
changes and then were, oh,white.
Yeah, but she, ugh, she did thisor she did that.
And it's like, did she though?
(38:01):
Or are you just talking shit?
'cause you don't like what shedid?
Like what fascinates me as wellwith these stories is how.
Wiped, they are like, you arenot even gonna write down.
Those achievements on thatsteely.
And it's just like Maryann lastweek where people were actually
throwing her away.
Her letters and illustrations,they were, it's such a physical
act of erosion.
(38:22):
And like with the paintings,like with Julie Le Leicester,
they're physically, well thismust, well this must have been a
man.
It's such a deliberate.
It's not.
They're forgotten.
I think maybe we need to changeour phrasing on the pod a little
bit.
Really?
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's been for forgotten.
That's a good, it's erased,isn't it?
They're very, very different.
It's, I'm amazed at howdeliberate everything is.
That is such a good point andit, it makes me wonder in this
(38:46):
case, like in the case of thepaintings, you had scholars go
back and very deliberately lookfor those erasure, look for
those thefts, and I think inthis case we have historical
evidence of how China prosperedunder her possibly because there
were open borders and trade.
(39:07):
People from other cultures wereable to say, no, I was there.
People were living well, no, Iwas there.
Women were being educated likethis happened.
Yeah, because the documentationin her own society probably
would've been destroyed bypeople who would've benefited
from saying, oh, a woman leaderis terrible.
(39:28):
They're just.
Like every, every accusation isa confession.
Isn't it interesting that all ofthe rumors that they start about
these women are about sexualvoracious and so on, and those
are such, oh, it's so boring.
Classically male.
Traits like so basic.
Yeah.
Like, come on dudes.
Like, do do better.
Do better, do better.
(39:50):
Yeah.
Don't be mediocre.
I love it.
Oh my gosh, what a story.
That was quite a rollercoaster.
Kara Rollercoaster.
There's a lot going on and I'msorry for all the violence
that's, unfortunately comes withthis story.
Important.
Yeah, it's very um.
Everything seems to be sodramatic.
(40:10):
You know what I mean?
Like the, the drama of therumors and then the, the upswing
of that, of the drama of acelestial impress, and then
creating your own Chinesecharacter because there's
nothing that suits me in them.
You know?
Every attacks free year,everything's very extremist.
Isn't it?
Big in the story?
Big?
She went big, she mix it.
(40:31):
The rollercoaster.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
audio2663295054 (40:36):
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