September 16, 2025 • 45 mins
Maryam Mirzakhani: The Trailblazing Mathematician
This episode of 'She Changed History' delves into the life and legacy of Maryam Mirzakhani, an extraordinary Iranian mathematician and the first woman to win the basically the math olympics. Discussing her journey from a childhood during the Iran-Iraq war to her groundbreaking work in hyperbolic geometry, the episode highlights her resilience, optimism, and the critical support she received from teachers and peers. Maryam's remarkable achievements continue to inspire women in mathematics and science, leaving an enduring impact on the field.
Sources today area
1 https://mathshistory.st-
andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Mirzakhani/
2 https://www.britannica.com/biography/Maryam-Mirzakhani
3 https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/13/interview-
maryam-mirzakhani-fields-medal-winner-mathematician
4 https://www.quantamagazine.org/years-after-the-early-death-
of-a-math-genius-her-ideas-gain-new-life-20250303/
5 https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jul/19/maryam-
mirzakhani-obituary
6
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/08/01/mary
am-mirzakhani-a-candle-illuminating-the-dark/
7 https://www.cantorsparadise.com/maryam-mirzakhani-
humble-till-the-end-856961ffd946
8 https://mariyamraza.medium.com/understanding-labor-of-
love-through-the-life-of-maryam-mirzakhani-a76e40f91ad5
9 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28739373
00:00 Introduction and Algorithm Woes
00:26 Henry Cavill and Chivalry
01:47 Weekend Vibes and Math Talk
02:38 Introducing Maryam Mirzakhani
03:43 Early Life in Iran
05:29 Educational Journey and Challenges
11:46 Mathematical Olympiad Success
17:32 University Years and Research
20:37 Tragedy and Resilience
21:33 A Passion for Mathematics
21:42 Harvard and the Fields Medal
24:22 Understanding Hyperbolic Geometry
27:52 Maryam's Academic Journey
33:32 Breaking Barriers in Mathematics
38:57 Legacy and Final Years
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1509065257 (00:08):
I see it.
I'm on a Henry Cabell algorithmat the minute.
Courtesy of Kay.
It's all to do with Kay.
She has destroyed my algorithmand now it is 99%.
destroyed I'm doesn't matter.
Mad.
Yeah, I was gonna say, is thatreally destroying?
Is this to do with your castingchoices for the.
(00:30):
Fairies and for the, for thefairy Smart.
Yeah.
The sexy fairies is basically,and also just, he's just so
lovely.
A lot of them have to do withlike just chivalry.
Like he's just really chivalrousand he is a good, good dude,
isn't he?
It just makes you swoon and it'sridiculous actually, you know.
Before we were, I think we werediscussing this at choir the
(00:52):
other day.
We were like, before at least itwas like a possibility.
But I think he's taken that, Ithink he's like a dad.
He's like doing that kind ofthing.
Gutted.
I never was laboring under theillusion that that was gonna
happen for me.
I mean, I'm a married woman, butalso like.
Yeah, just it can happen.
Write your positivity.
(01:12):
I'm not looking, so, you know.
Oh, he can, he keeps texting meand I keep telling him, look,
Henry, I've told you before,Henry, calm down.
Calm down, Henry.
Yes, he's, he's amazing.
Um, but we are here not to talkabout men.
Karara, I'm sorry.
No.
We are here women and one womanin specific.
(01:36):
Yeah.
Um, I think so.
Are you ready?
Are you ready?
Yeah, I am.
So let's just like myself up.
How are ya?
How you doing?
I'm good.
How are you?
Yeah, I'm really good.
Thank you.
Looking forward to the weekend.
It's Friday.
Yes, it's Friday night.
This is like a nighttimerecording.
This is, I should, we shouldhave had like a really playful
(01:59):
rock and roll kind of topic andI have brought math is what I
have brought, but a no.
Math has to happen sometime.
It might as well be on a Fridaynight.
Oh, is it sexy math?
It's a sexy person with abeautiful mind and an incredible
(02:19):
soul.
Okay.
Math.
I'm still very ambivalent.
Not sexy.
No, I can't, I can't get intoit, but she.
Was absolutely bang up for it.
Loved a bit of the math.
Okay.
All right, all you've opened mymind.
Let's go.
Right.
So, um, the topic, the lady whowe will be talking about today,
(02:42):
the topic being math and thelady being Maryam Ani, um, um,
yeah, I mean, you, you won't besurprised to hear based on
everything we just said that forme, math was like.
The worst topic at school.
I was terrified and I kind ofhave a bit of.
Intellectual panic aroundanything to do facts and
(03:05):
numbers.
But she, it was a topic that wassuggested by Robert Noche and I
kind of looked into her andshe's so cool and so such a
winning person that I thought,okay.
Put the math phobia aside, we'regoing to celebrate this person
and her achievements.
So I'm so proud of you for doingthat.
That's pretty cool.
(03:25):
Thank you.
It's, you have no idea how deepcomforting this runs.
Like this is school, schooltime.
Traumas being put to write here.
Um, nice.
We are going to talk today aboutmathematician, professor and
field medal winner maryam me.
Maryam was born in 1977 inTehran, Iran.
(03:49):
I will be saying that theAmerican way people are going to
wince.
I'm sorry.
There's nothing I can do aboutit.
I could try to say Iran, but itjust makes me feel icky.
So what did you say?
Iran?
Iran.
Iran.
Oh, I didn't even notice, to behonest.
Yeah, sorry.
Okay.
Well I could have gotten away.
Did you say Iraq?
Don't you say Iraq?
Weird.
I don't know that.
Yeah, I, I don't know.
(04:09):
I'm about to say it.
So we'll find out because, um,her childhood was during the
Iran Iraq war.
Yes.
And it was also during theIslamic Revolution in Iran.
So.
Politically and culturallythere's a lot going on around
her and a lot of it quitedirectly impacts on what women
(04:31):
and girls.
Can do, are encouraged to do orexpected to do and are allowed
to do.
I'm not gonna go into that wholesort of political area really at
all, other than through the lensof her direct experience.
Mm-hmm.
What I would say is if that's anarea of interest to you, there's
(04:52):
um, that graphic novel Persisthat mm-hmm.
Is set in Iran at that exacttime in history.
And it talks about the worldfrom a little girl's point of
view.
And I very much.
I couldn't help having that inmind when I was reading about
Maryam.
Um, so yeah, Periplus byMaryanne Satrapi I would
(05:13):
strongly recommend because itdoes give you that kind of
context of what it's like to bea girl.
I bet a lot of our listenersgrew up in the eighties as well,
so at least they would have somelike something.
Awareness.
Yeah.
Like of world events that werehappening.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I've just realized that Igot so swept up in it that I
didn't talk about our sourcesfor today.
(05:34):
So very quickly, let me, let'sget those, let whiz through
that.
Um, uh, the good old BBC,there's a medium.
Dot com article all about herlife.
There was, material in Forbesand The Guardian, something
called Quantum Magazine, which Ithink is very science yourself.
Oh, your new subscription.
Very intellectual reading.
(05:54):
Um, good old Britannica and, theUniversity of St.
Andrews had a lovely piece abouther as well.
So those are our sources fortoday, and as I said, she grew
up in a troubled time.
You know that, that point Yeah,of course.
You're referencing, we're allkind of culturally aware of if
(06:14):
we grew it was a long war aswell.
Yeah, it was.
And although that was thepicture outside of her house and
in the world when she went outher front door within her home,
it was a very happy family.
Um, her dad was an electricalengineer, her mother.
Was a homemaker who knows whatshe would've time.
(06:36):
But what she was wastremendously encouraging of her
daughter's curiosity and spirit.
Her brothers.
Likewise, tried to encourage herand when they learned things at
school, they saw she wasinterested in science and math
and in whatever it might be,they would bring home material
(06:57):
for her to look at and read andreading was a big, a big
feature.
So apparently as a child, shewould tell herself bedtime
stories about a remarkablelittle girl who went into the
world and achieved wonderfulthings.
She was a mayor, or she traveledthe world, or she went on
adventures.
And so with that natural senseof imagination and love of
(07:21):
stories, Maryam imagined thatshe would become a writer.
There's a quote here about itactually.
When I was a kid, my dream wasto become a writer.
I spent my most exciting momentsreading novels, reading
virtually anything I could getmy hands on.
I mean, oh, I'm very tired andit made me quite emotional, you
(07:43):
talking about her dreams andstuff.
I was like, welling of, Aw,that's lovely.
It's, it is so charming and itjust gives you the insight.
These, these women that we talkabout this so often features
that they have.
This deep love of books, ofstories, and of reading, and I
think you and I both resonatewith that.
And I, I imagine lots of peoplewill, there's an adorable little
(08:05):
photo of her dressed up as anurse.
I know.
Apparently she loved to readbiographies of people like, Mary
Curie and, you know, she justreally, yeah, she had, that's
weird.
A real appetite for women meanwho were out there doing mean.
It's unusual for us.
Small child.
Yes.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Yes.
It's quite real for a smallchild.
(08:26):
Let's talk about the radi of,yeah, let's talk about that
poisonous element that Mary GIvows a bit dark.
Maybe this is her markingherself out from a really young
age as just having a rapaciouscuriosity about the world.
She went off to elementaryschool, uh, primary school, as
you would say.
Once she finished with thatthough, she was allowed to sit
(08:48):
the entrance exam for aprestigious school.
Okay.
It's called Farzana again,middle School for girls, and it
was managed directly by theIranian National Organization
for development of exceptionaltalents.
So it was, it was to foster thebest and the brightest.
(09:10):
Wow.
At that time in Iran, I imaginethat that was a rare thing, and
being in Teran will have gone along way to give her that
opportunity.
That's, and she smashed it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like, it just shows theimportance of those programs as
well, doesn't it?
The It really does.
How much they needed.
Yeah.
(09:30):
Yeah.
To spot that talent and, and.
As we'll say to, to bring it onand, and to bring it out into
the world.
So she got in, in the first weekof school.
She met her lifelong best friendwho was called Roya Beheshti.
They immediately bonded and theywould apparently go off to the
bookstores around the school,uh, during their, their breaks.
(09:53):
I know.
And they would buy, I know,they're so cute.
They would buy whatever bookswere cheapest, whatever was on
sale.
So they ended up reading.
Everything.
Like just, it's so good, isn'tit?
It's adorable, cutest thing.
These two year school girls withthe fuzzy little hair, right to
the bookstore.
Loving, loving the books.
Um, oh, that tiny little pocketmoney buying the really cute
(10:15):
books.
Oh my god.
I've got a crumble.
Oh my God.
Well, she and Roya would go offand do this.
They also obviously had theirclasses.
Maryam apparently didn't get offto a natural start with the
maths.
Um, she, in her first year had ateacher who told her, uh, that
(10:36):
she wasn't especially talentedin the subject, which apparently
really damaged her confidence, Ican see, and made her not very
interested.
Oh, it's horrible.
It's a horrible thing to say,and it could have been the end
of a remarkable story, right?
Because all it takes really isone person to kind of tell you,
(10:57):
well, no, no, that that's notfor you.
You're not good at that.
Especially when you are youngand you're fragile and you don't
have that thick skin and mm-hmm.
You probably haven't been toldthat before either.
That's like new, that's a newdata, especially you to absorb
are like a gifted child whoprobably is good at a lot of
different things.
(11:17):
It would be natural to just go,well, okay, I can't be good at
everything.
Fine.
But why would you say that to alittle girl?
Like what were you getting outof that?
I, yes, this, it's a really oddthing to have done in my
opinion, but luckily thefollowing year she ended up with
a different maths teacher.
I would say a better mathsteacher who encouraged her and
(11:39):
her natural talent started tocome So.
That was during her middleschool years.
And then in high school, uh,still at, uh, Forgan, um, Maryam
and Roya found a working paper,a practice paper that showed six
mathematical problems fromsomething called the
(12:01):
Mathematical Olympiad, which isan international maths
competition like Olympia.
Like, yeah, like the Olympics.
The Olympics.
Of Max.
Of Max.
Yeah.
That's where we're the Olympicsof Max.
Oh my God.
How old is she at this point?
Like middle?
She's probably about middleschool age.
Yeah.
Uh, just after middle school.
So between 16 and 18 years old,fine.
(12:22):
Just finds this paper and theythink, I know we're gonna have a
little go at it.
So they do, because maths is funbecause learning is.
Fun.
So they managed to solve threeof the six problems without any,
you know, support or, orteaching specifically for it.
And they, oh, God brought this.
I know.
(12:42):
No, I can't actually barelyscraped by the face level, but
you know, it's not a littleproblem.
Do you, you know it, the problemis like three lines low, isn't
it?
It's gonna be, um, yeah, it's,it's designed to weed out the.
The average student from thetruly mathematically gifted and
just without any, you know,support, they knocked out half
(13:05):
of them.
They brought that along to theirschool principal and they asked
her for mathematical problemsolving classes.
Uh, at that time in the Iraniancurriculum, that was only
allowed to be taught to boys oronly typically taught to boys.
Oh.
In the eighties.
(13:26):
Um, yep.
Again, this is the, it's theIslamic Islamic Revolution and
the women.
Had much akin to I think what'shappening in Afghanistan now.
Kind of a rolling back of what awoman's role and what a girl's
role should be.
But her principal of her schoolsaid, no, we, we are going to do
(13:49):
that for you.
Used her sway and as Miriamwould put it, her positive can
do mindset to arrange thoseadvanced maths classes.
Um, cool.
And previous to that, no girlshad ever participated in the
Iranian mathematical Olympiadteam, but the principal's work
paid off.
(14:11):
The female principal's work paidoff.
Mm-hmm.
And I think my immediate goodreaction is if that was a man, I
dunno if that would happen.
That's the concern, isn't it?
That Yeah.
It's another example of.
The luck of having supportwomen, good support and good
women around you, to, torecognize the potential you
(14:34):
need, you need cheerleaders inyour life.
If anyone's watching, absolutelylistening there to this, oh my
God, if you don't feel like youhave someone supporting you in
your corner, come hell, highwater.
Go and get one.
I'll do it.
Do it.
Get it.
You're super good at it.
Yeah, just, but it's so needed,isn't it?
Because.
(14:55):
It's not just the fact that shehad a positive can-do mindset,
it's she recognized that herselfand that little girl I bet.
At some level.
Right.
And she was willing to fight forher.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Um, well it worked becauseMaryam and Roya made the Iranian
(15:15):
Mathematical Olympiad team.
Yes.
Which it was a tremendous honor,but it also is done on merit,
like they.
They had to work to get intothat position.
Oh, damn right.
Yeah.
They had to be good enough.
Just they not letting anyoneinto the Olympics karara, you're
not letting any sausage inthere.
Exactly.
(15:36):
It was a really, really bigdeal.
So it gave Miriam bothencouragement and recognition,
but also an opportunity to goout and see the world, which
from childhood was a dream ofhers.
All those adventures that shewanted were starting to happen.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Yeah.
So her first competition was inHong Kong.
(15:58):
Amazing.
Uh, Mari, completely differentas well to like Iran, like ly
everything away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hong Kong in the eighties musthave been mind blowing.
Um, Maryam scored 41 out of 42available points.
She did and won a gold medal.
She did.
And Roya earned a silver.
So nice.
(16:18):
They, they represented theircountry beautifully.
Really did.
The following year in Toronto,Maryam got a perfect score of 42
out of 42 available points foranother goal.
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
She's doing, and this is thegirl who can't do math.
She's the girl who, oh, I don'tthink this is for you.
I think that teacher can't doteaching is what I think.
(16:40):
Yes.
But um, we are, that is thesummary.
Yes, yes, yes.
So that brings us up to 1995and, okay.
Feels very contemporary, doesn'tit?
It feels so contemporary.
Maryam is beginning to study forher degree in mathematics
mm-hmm.
At the Sharif University ofTechnology in Tehran.
(17:00):
Yeah.
Also, she got this Olympic medalwithout having a degree since Oh
yeah.
That, that level of competitionwas specifically for.
People of her age.
So it was Oh, okay, okay, okay.
Yeah, like there was a team inmy school for academic
decathlon, and it was, you wouldgo and do like quizzes and stuff
(17:20):
with kids, all kids.
So she was, it wasn't an adultcompetition or anything, but it
still was the, the absolute likegold standard cream of the crop
worldwide.
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
In fact, there's a little bitabout it here because her
university place was funded by afellowship.
From the Institute for thePromotion of Mathematics who are
(17:41):
deeply okay involved in that.
So, there's a little quote,well, a not so little quote here
that talks about the kind ofthings you can expect if you're
doing the exam for one of thesefellowships.
What kind of topics should youexpect?
Well, that depends on yourclass, but don't expect
questions straight out of atextbook.
(18:03):
Classes two to four, you'll seenumbers, patterns, basic
operations time, and a fewpuzzles classes, five to six, I
think, fractions, decimals,factors, and a bits of algebra
thrown in.
CLS is seven to nine.
You'll need to know equations,geometry, and how to play around
with data.
(18:23):
Spare him.
Come on guys.
You know what I mean?
Come kids, they're, they'restoked and I love it.
I love that the phrasing, likeplay around with data because I
think it, like personifies theapproach that Maryam had
throughout her career for hermath was something fun and
playful.
So, you know, that's sointeresting.
(18:45):
We'll get there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At any rate, she was able toscore highly enough to have her
degree fully funded.
And the university itself wasone of the leading physical
sciences universities in Iran.
So, you know, it's so the rightplace for her.
She gets there, she meets allthese other people who are just
on her wavelength, thesemathematicians.
(19:06):
And they all became friendsbecause they were so passionate
about their topic.
And they would have like.
Like little pickup problemsolving sessions for fun and
informal reading groups andliterally just could not get
enough of, of the math.
She also, whilst doing her firstyear of uni and beyond, was busy
(19:27):
publishing research papers,which.
Is amazing.
Ama.
I know.
My first year of uni, it's sohard to do.
How?
Like how I was pleased if Icould find a parking spot where
I wouldn't get a ticket.
Or if I found a place that soldcheap sandwiches like I was.
It's so true.
You're surviving, you're living,you're learning to live.
Survive as well.
Survive.
(19:47):
Survive.
Well, she went ahead whilstdoing all of that adjustment and
freshman, you know.
Yeah.
Concern and all of it.
To write the paper decompositionof complete tripartite graphs
into five cycles.
So there you go.
Go.
That's the kind of thing.
I know what it's meant.
Nope, not a clue.
(20:09):
Absolutely Greek to me.
Um, perhaps.
Oh, a simple proof of a theoremof Sure.
Okay.
What?
Sure.
Yes, sure.
S-C-H-U-R, who I assume is a,was a person academic in the
field of maths.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Throughout her university years,she's published is, is kind of
the headline there.
(20:30):
Mental, absolutely mentalinsane.
Whilst all of this is going onduring.
The Iranian revolution during,she had a, the first tragedy of
her young life, which was that abus that she and some of the
other students and a fewteachers were on, was on its way
(20:50):
back from a competition andcrashed into a ravine.
So of the students who were onthe bus.
And the teachers who were on thebus, I think that there were
nine deaths in total.
Many, many, many people injured.
She survived and went on tocomplete her and I didn't see a
(21:12):
lot about how this affected her,but.
She clearly is somebody who isnot going to be stopped and
yeah, who sort of pushes on evenwhen things are drastically,
drastically sad.
The vibe I'm getting is it'slike a calling.
(21:33):
It's like she can't help herselfbut do it.
She, she just has to get it outof her.
I think you're absolutely ontosomething.
She was willing to travel for ittoo.
She graduated university andmoved to the US to attend grad
school.
When she got to Harvard, whichis where she went, she had
seminars led by a man calledCurtis McMullen who had just won
(21:56):
the Fields medal.
This is not something I knowanything about.
So I've done a little likesuccinct explanation mm-hmm.
In case anyone else is just likethe what now?
Yeah.
So would you, would you mind.
Uh, the Fields Medal recognizesoutstanding mathematical
achievement for existing workand for the promise of future
achievement they're given everyfour years On the occasion of
(22:20):
the International Congress ofMathematicians And the laureates
must be younger than 40 yearsold.
Hmm.
So it's like the shiniest of themedals of the It's a big deal.
Yeah, it, it's a big deal.
It's what else is given everyIt's kind of coming back to that
(22:41):
like Olympics vibe that like,yeah, every so often they have
this big international mathsconference and they, they look
around the world and they say,who, who are the young rising
stars?
Who are the kind of rock starsof the field right now who not
only have done stuff but we cansee are going to go on to do
even more incredible stuff?
(23:02):
We should make it up.
We should have our own little.
Thing every four years.
Just recognize awesome people.
Just yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just somebody who's doing prettysimilar.
Pretty cool.
And make it a laureate.
I love it.
That's that.
Yeah.
Can we get a little gold medalminted?
I think that would be, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Definitely got, at least forthis, at least.
(23:23):
So here comes her professor withhis freshly minted fields medal.
He became her doctoral advisorand said that he was impressed
by her imagination and herdaring approach to problems.
So I think that's daring,forged, daring to to try new
things and to push, yeah.
Push things and ask why andquestion more deeply.
(23:46):
Love that.
And that speaks to thecomplexity of what she's doing.
She, we're not talking four plusfour, are we?
We are not, and in fact, we'repushing the boundaries.
I'm, I'm about to push yourboundaries.
I think because there's anenormous quote here.
Enormous, like almost a fullpage if you care to read it.
What I did was, because I do notunderstand this field
(24:09):
whatsoever, I thought I wannaknow a little bit more about
what her work was, right?
So I went off on a littleReddit.
Expedition and I found yes toread it.
Explain like I'm five ELI five.
This is what.
Hyperbolic geometry, which washer area of focus.
This is what it's all about.
So are you up for reading a megaquote?
(24:30):
In regular life, we look atstuff on flat surfaces, like the
shortest distance between twopoints.
If I want to walk from a point Ato point B, the quickest way is
simply walking in a perfectstraight line.
Cervical geometry is basicallydoing geometry on the surface of
a sphere instead of a flatsurface.
(24:50):
So now if I want to walk betweentwo points using the shortest
path, I can't walk directlybetween them and a straight
line.
The quickest way to fly fromLondon to Sydney would simply be
through the earth in a directstraight line, but that isn't
possible.
So we must fly along thecircular arc around the earth.
That's because Cara, the earthis round a sphere.
(25:13):
Exactly.
So we're better at this than wethought.
Hyperbolic geometry is likedoing geometry.
On a saddle shaped plane.
If I want to walk between twopoints on this type of surface,
I yet again cannot walk in adirect straight line as I.
(25:33):
As I would have to walk betweenthe surface and the thin air.
Do I get that?
So if you were to stick a littlestar on the outside edge of the
saddle, like where, where yourknee would need it, say, and you
were to put another star on theother edge of the saddle.
the, where the other leg wouldmeet it if you wanted to connect
(25:54):
those lines.
The quickest way, quickest wouldbe just like that.
Oh, we're talking about a horsesettle.
A horse settle.
Oh, right.
If you want walk between twopoints of any type of the
surface, I yet again cannot walkin a direct straight line as I
would have to walk above thesurface on thin air, which isn't
allowed, I must remain on thesurface at all times.
(26:17):
This means that the practical,shortest distance between two
points is going in a strangecurved line.
There will be non-parallellines, which don't have, which
don't, oh, which don't neverintersect the angles.
A triangle, some to less than ahundred degree.
I'm gonna cut this paragraphout.
(26:38):
It's too much.
So this is, this is theimportant one.
Oh no, that's me.
Like is too much.
This is too much.
I think the fact that it's toomuch is the point the, the fact
that even a rudimentaryexplanation of the mathematical
world in which she was engaging.
It's impossible.
The point this person's makingis that all the things we think
(27:00):
we understand about math about.
How many degrees the corners ofa triangle add up to about how
spheres and planes and lineswork.
The fact that parallel lineswill never meet and non-parallel
lines will eventually cross.
Yeah, all those rules are gone.
Hyperbolic geometry is.
Absolutely bonkers.
(27:21):
That's right.
That's the takeaway.
That's the, the, the fine, thesingle understood single line.
There's a picture that I'vepulled in from a master that
starts it's like that to melooks like a dog toy.
Beyond that I've got nothing.
It does.
Yeah.
But she's working with this.
Um, this is where Maryam isplaying in this wildly
(27:42):
difficult.
Impossible to deal with withintuition realm where none of
the rules really apply.
She makes herself at home there.
So her research, even at thiscomparatively early stage in her
career is bringing up newtheories and overturning
accepted thinking about how thisall works.
(28:04):
Um, she had, um, a dissertationabout this called Simple
Geodesics on hyperbolicsurfaces.
And volume of the modularizedspace of curves.
And I included that simple.
I thought that was hysterical.
Simple, simple.
Um, obviously I don't understandprobably the last 700 words that
(28:27):
either of us has said.
But people who knew knew andthey saw this was exceptional
work, like once in a generationthinking.
So it earned her the Leonard mand Eleanor b Blumenthal Award
for the advancement of researchand pure mathematics.
Hmm.
Uh, she was offered a juniorfellowship at Harvard, which she
(28:50):
declined.
She was given a clay researchfellowship and that allowed her
to have the time and space tothink about things.
She went off with thisfellowship to become an
assistant professor atPrinceton.
And she really relished thattime.
Here's something about her thatI think everyone can get behind
(29:12):
and appreciate.
There's a, a much smaller quotehere, if you would.
I am a slow thinker and have tospend a lot of time before I can
clean up my ideas and makeprogress.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because you're often criticizedfor being a slow thinker.
Mm-hmm.
Aren't you?
It's often like, make a quickdecision.
Make it, now capitalism.
(29:32):
Yeah.
Go, go, go suck every second outof every day.
And actually, yeah, like hustle.
Hustle.
Culture.
Hustle, baby.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the like, I kind of had anote here that the things that
we associate, the words weassociate with intelligence are,
oh, they're really quick,they're really sharp, they're
really fast.
Speed is a virtue.
But here she comes and she's.
Demonstrably an exceptionalmind, and she's going, I just
(29:56):
need to let things brew.
I need to think about it.
I need to work it over and workit over.
And I found that so delightfuland refreshing.
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, so she, she used thattime, it was fruitful.
She produced many more papersall around that wacky,
hyperbolic geometry world thatshe loved.
And then in 2006 she started acollaboration with a couple of
(30:21):
other mathematicians, Alex Eskinmm-hmm.
And Amir Hamdi.
And the three of them did somehuge breakthrough works in
Geodesics and.
Important as the work clearly isto people in that field.
What I think is superinteresting is how, how they and
she worked, so, mm-hmm.
(30:42):
There's another quote here fromEskin, talking about Maryam as a
coworker.
Aw.
She is very optimistic andthat's infectious.
When you work with her, you feelyou have a much better chance of
solving problems.
At first seem hopeless.
Oh, that's great.
Oh, isn't, isn't thatdelightful?
If that was on my performancereview, I'd be classic.
(31:04):
No one's saying that about me.
I'm telling you No.
Oh, but she, she came throughsuch difficult things.
I can't help but think that thatbuilds.
Uh, it builds a certain reserveand hope is such an active
revolution, you know, to beoptim optimistic.
(31:26):
I was thinking she probably gotit from her teacher.
It's very similar, positive, cando optimistic, infectious, like
they're very similar vein,aren't they?
Wonderful?
Maybe that teacher I dunno.
I love that.
It's a leap, but it's quitecool.
Like No, no.
I can see it like such a rolemodel.
I love this picture you've got,by the way, isn't that of her
(31:47):
like looking serene, gorgeous inher element?
Absolutely.
In her element.
I love it.
Look, face equations, that makesme feel sweaty and stressed, but
she's just.
her spot.
But s look beautiful, like allthe loops and the brackets it's
a very calm image.
I know obviously the backgroundisn't, but it, it feels calm.
(32:09):
I think for her it is.
It's a place, a place of joy.
And yeah, so there's a bit thatI kind of noted down a little
further along that talks abouther seeing mathematical
characters and, and.
You know, objects as thesecharacters in a kind of story,
in a narrative, and apparentlyshe would get these great, huge
(32:31):
roles of paper and roll them outand sketch things that I can
imagine.
Well, like you read thatdescription of what this
hyperbolic geometry involves.
Mm-hmm.
She's drawing things that bydefinition cannot be depicted,
but she's Ah, it's beautiful.
It is.
Yeah, it is beautiful.
And fluid and organic shefinishes her fellowship.
(32:54):
She is made a professor atStanford.
Finally.
Yeah.
Jesus.
I wrote about time and at thispoint she meets and marries Jan
Vdr, who is a Czech theoreticalcomputer scientist and applied
mathematician.
So bonding, describing their binon the math.
Uh, he's teaching over atPrinceton and then they had a
(33:16):
little daughter called in, uh,2011.
So.
At the 2014 InternationalCongress of Mathematicians,
which you will remember is a bigdeal.
Big deal.
Um, they give out Maryam.
Maryam made history by becomingthe first woman and the first
Iranian to receive the field'smedal.
(33:39):
Nice.
So, yeah, strong.
You know, you know, this is ahuge, huge step and, and she's
still so young.
She is 20 full of very young,but so full of promise and I
think.
She didn't give an acceptancespeech, but she did do
interviews and okay.
She talked in those interviewsabout what she felt was the most
(34:00):
important thing for her to getwhere she did.
So there's a little chunky quotethere.
I was very lucky in many ways.
The war, Iran Iraq War, whichlasted from 1980 1988, ended
when I finished an elementaryschool.
I couldn't have had the greatopportunities that I had if I
had been born 10 years earlier.
(34:22):
I went to a great high schooland had very good teachers.
I met my friend Roya ti thefirst week.
It is invaluable to have afriend who shares your interests
and helps you stay motivated.
Also, our school principal was astrong-willed woman who was
willing to go a long way.
(34:42):
I'm gonna cry to provide us withthe same opportunities as the
boys school.
Oh my God.
It's gorgeous, isn't it?
Oh, and it's just so full of.
Gratitude and recognition ofothers.
Yeah.
It's a remarkable testament toher character.
Mm-hmm.
How are you feeling up forbeating?
(35:02):
Another quote?
I think I'm just tired.
It is.
I feel like I'm putting youthrough the paces today.
I can do this one if you prefer,but I just thought it was a
really interesting thing becausemm-hmm.
When they were talking aboutthis award, going to Maryam, the
Fields medal panel reallyconsciously chose to open that
door to, okay.
(35:24):
To her as a woman working in thefield of maths.
Yeah.
Finally.
And it's like, it's good news,don't get me wrong, but it is
like we're in 2014 now, like,come on.
You know what I mean?
Professor Dane, Francis Kowan amember of the Medal selection
committee from the University ofOxford pointed out that despite
maths being used astraditionally, a male reserve,
(35:45):
women have contributed tomathematics for centuries.
Yes, we have.
She noted that around 40% ofmaths undergraduates in the UK
are women.
Yes, they are.
But that proportion declinesrapidly at PhD level and beyond.
Why is that?
There is so many reasons whythat is and why that doesn't
happen for men.
(36:06):
I could go on quote.
I hope that Maryam, beinggranted this award will inspire
lots more girls and young womenin this country and around the
world to believe in their ownabilities and to aim to be
fields medalists in the future.
Professor Ker one said.
Yeah.
Oh, I get it.
(36:27):
And I get that she's tried toput the stats in there and it
reminds me of that book,invisible Women that we are
Reading.
Like the World is not designedfor us sometimes and like.
It is not, it's not our faultthat 40% of mass graduates in
the UK are women, but then itdecreases.
(36:49):
That's nothing to do with this.
That is the society that hasbeen built.
Yet we are the ones having tofight for the society.
You know, I think that directlyacknowledging it.
And saying, we are deciding totake steps to do what we can to,
to redress this, to, to, tochange this.
(37:11):
I see.
And this all came down to ateacher giving her a shot.
Yep.
And it's like, ugh.
How many kids didn't get thatshot?
You know, Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm an emotional wreck.
So how about you carry on,because now I've gone from tired
to cry to angry all in in thatspace.
About 10 minutes.
Well, the rollercoaster willcontinue.
(37:33):
I'm afraid to say no.
Yeah.
So, um, we'll start with this.
Maryam, throughout her careerwas noted for her optimism and
her collaboration.
We talked a little bit about howplayful she was in seeing
mathematical.
Objects as characters and stufflike this.
Her colleagues also describedher as humble, that she really
(37:54):
only accepted honors because sheunderstood that it would inspire
other girls and women to followthat same path.
Uh, but despite her not seekingthose.
Honors.
They came.
They came.
So she had her fields medal.
She was given, I'm gonna justrun through this little bullet.
'cause apparently these are the,these are the big ones in that
(38:15):
field.
Um, despite the Emmys, theOscars, the Emmys, and the SCAs,
the whole works.
The Ruth Little Satter prize inmathematics, and she earned that
in 2013.
She was elected to the ParisAcademy of Sciences and the
American Philosophical Societyin 2015 to the American National
(38:36):
Academy of Sciences in 2016 andthe American Academy of Arts and
Sciences.
In 2017, she was invited tospeak at the international
Congress of mathematicians againand again.
Including the plenary lecture in2014, um, the year she was
elected, uh, nominated for theprize and won.
(38:57):
But sadly, even before she hadreceived the fields medal,
Maryam had been diagnosed withbreast cancer.
She continued to work throughouther illness, which I think
really goes to that point thatyou were making about vocation,
about just being her calling anda lot of her work, her most
significant discoveries.
(39:18):
They were during that, that timewhen she was ill.
eventually the cancer spread andshe died in 2017, just 40 years
old, which took from her lovedones this wonderful woman took
from the world of mathematicsthis incredible.
(39:39):
Bright star and I know it'srough.
So there's a quote here from hertalking about her illness.
Um, I think you're gonna have toread it.
I will cry.
Okay., So she says Life isn'tfair.
I was born in a loving family.
I was born with a smart head andhad good people around me.
(40:01):
I didn't complain about how fairthat is.
Many people in this world don'thave those things, so why should
I complain now?
Oh, oh.
Which is just brave.
Beyond imagining.
Yeah.
After she died her, well, Iguess her boss, it would've been
the Stanford president, markTessier Levine.
Said that she obviously was gonefar too soon, but that her
(40:24):
impact as a scholar and a rolemodel would be significant and
enduring.
Yeah.
Do you feel up to one lastquote?
Yeah.
Her ideas will live on for thethousands of women she inspired
to pursue math and science.
and he's dead.
Right?
Because her legacy.
Continues even now.
(40:45):
There are other people out thereworking on the foundations that
she laid.
Um, I wanted to mention inparticular to mathematicians
called Laura Monk and Ani andAraman, uh, who this year
extended Merriam's work onrandom hyperbolic surfaces, that
old favorite.
Yay.
Um, and it just goes to showthose ideas, although they're
(41:09):
already over a decade old.
Are generating new discoveriesin that absolutely bizarre
universe of hyperbolic geometrythat she began mapping.
So Maryam Mars's life, thoughobviously much too short, really
shows that that power of legacyand.
(41:32):
Her imagination and herperseverance and her
intellectual courage can turneven these bizarre, abstract and
challenging topics intoplaygrounds that can be enjoyed
and understood.
Along the way.
And she was so lucky.
She found her thing, she, shefound her thing and she ran with
(41:55):
it as far as she could, as quickas she could.
I mean, see what you think aboutthis, but I've got a sense that
whatever she turned her interestto.
Would have become her thing you,I think.
I think this was a special thingthat resonated for her because
God knows nobody would getinvolved in that if it wasn't,
(42:16):
but she just seemed to be such asparky inventive.
Determined.
Like hard worker.
I can't, if you can masterhyperbolic geometry, what can't
you do?
You know?
Yeah.
Fair, fair, fair.
Yeah.
But that's our gal.
That's our gal for today.
(42:37):
Oh, well, she's wonderful, isn'tshe?
And it's very, yeah, because Ihaven't even thought about the
things that are not flat or needmeasuring.
That has not entered my realm atall.
No, I don't want to.
No, I don't want to think aboutthese things, but I'm, I'm
stoked that somebody's enjoyingit.
(42:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like CAD wasn't a thing.
You know, all of that kind ofstuff.
None of this could be mapped inthose ways.
She was still pen and papering.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's pretty wild.
I love the pictures as well.
The pictures are so, um, Idunno.
(43:19):
But she shines.
She shines in all of thosethings too.
It's pretty cool.
I think the word that comes tomind is intensity, that she's,
she's got a depth to her thatcomes through in those pictures
and.
Uh, you know, that joy in, whatshe's doing.
What a cool cat.
(43:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not a bad suggestion at all.
No, that was a wonderful, thatwas a really, thank you so much.
Interesting thing to research.
My pleasure.
Thanks for listening.
I'm sorry for the emotional.
Oh, I think it's, um, turmoil.
I think it's me.
I dunno, like, I guess it isemotional as a story.
It is, yeah.
It is sad, but at the same time,the things that she achieved and
(44:02):
the way that she worked, Ithought so lovely.
Um.
Anyone who advocates for slowthinking and taking your time,
I'm on your side.
Yes, absolutely.
I immediately on that.
So new.
And it also shows that it takes,it takes different strokes,
right?
For everyone has something togive and contribute, and you are
(44:26):
Val, you add value, whoever youare, whatever you do in your own
way, you add value and thatmakes Yeah.
Well, thanks Kara.
My pleasure.
audio2663295054 (44:42):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
I see it.
I'm on a Henry Cabell algorithmat the minute.
Courtesy of Kay.
It's all to do with Kay.
She has destroyed my algorithmand now it is 99%.
destroyed I'm doesn't matter.
Mad.
Yeah, I was gonna say, is thatreally destroying?
Is this to do with your castingchoices for the.
(00:30):
Fairies and for the, for thefairy Smart.
Yeah.
The sexy fairies is basically,and also just, he's just so
lovely.
A lot of them have to do withlike just chivalry.
Like he's just really chivalrousand he is a good, good dude,
isn't he?
It just makes you swoon and it'sridiculous actually, you know.
Before we were, I think we werediscussing this at choir the
(00:52):
other day.
We were like, before at least itwas like a possibility.
But I think he's taken that, Ithink he's like a dad.
He's like doing that kind ofthing.
Gutted.
I never was laboring under theillusion that that was gonna
happen for me.
I mean, I'm a married woman, butalso like.
Yeah, just it can happen.
Write your positivity.
(01:12):
I'm not looking, so, you know.
Oh, he can, he keeps texting meand I keep telling him, look,
Henry, I've told you before,Henry, calm down.
Calm down, Henry.
Yes, he's, he's amazing.
Um, but we are here not to talkabout men.
Karara, I'm sorry.
No.
We are here women and one womanin specific.
(01:36):
Yeah.
Um, I think so.
Are you ready?
Are you ready?
Yeah, I am.
So let's just like myself up.
How are ya?
How you doing?
I'm good.
How are you?
Yeah, I'm really good.
Thank you.
Looking forward to the weekend.
It's Friday.
Yes, it's Friday night.
This is like a nighttimerecording.
This is, I should, we shouldhave had like a really playful
(01:59):
rock and roll kind of topic andI have brought math is what I
have brought, but a no.
Math has to happen sometime.
It might as well be on a Fridaynight.
Oh, is it sexy math?
It's a sexy person with abeautiful mind and an incredible
(02:19):
soul.
Okay.
Math.
I'm still very ambivalent.
Not sexy.
No, I can't, I can't get intoit, but she.
Was absolutely bang up for it.
Loved a bit of the math.
Okay.
All right, all you've opened mymind.
Let's go.
Right.
So, um, the topic, the lady whowe will be talking about today,
(02:42):
the topic being math and thelady being Maryam Ani, um, um,
yeah, I mean, you, you won't besurprised to hear based on
everything we just said that forme, math was like.
The worst topic at school.
I was terrified and I kind ofhave a bit of.
Intellectual panic aroundanything to do facts and
(03:05):
numbers.
But she, it was a topic that wassuggested by Robert Noche and I
kind of looked into her andshe's so cool and so such a
winning person that I thought,okay.
Put the math phobia aside, we'regoing to celebrate this person
and her achievements.
So I'm so proud of you for doingthat.
That's pretty cool.
(03:25):
Thank you.
It's, you have no idea how deepcomforting this runs.
Like this is school, schooltime.
Traumas being put to write here.
Um, nice.
We are going to talk today aboutmathematician, professor and
field medal winner maryam me.
Maryam was born in 1977 inTehran, Iran.
(03:49):
I will be saying that theAmerican way people are going to
wince.
I'm sorry.
There's nothing I can do aboutit.
I could try to say Iran, but itjust makes me feel icky.
So what did you say?
Iran?
Iran.
Iran.
Oh, I didn't even notice, to behonest.
Yeah, sorry.
Okay.
Well I could have gotten away.
Did you say Iraq?
Don't you say Iraq?
Weird.
I don't know that.
Yeah, I, I don't know.
(04:09):
I'm about to say it.
So we'll find out because, um,her childhood was during the
Iran Iraq war.
Yes.
And it was also during theIslamic Revolution in Iran.
So.
Politically and culturallythere's a lot going on around
her and a lot of it quitedirectly impacts on what women
(04:31):
and girls.
Can do, are encouraged to do orexpected to do and are allowed
to do.
I'm not gonna go into that wholesort of political area really at
all, other than through the lensof her direct experience.
Mm-hmm.
What I would say is if that's anarea of interest to you, there's
(04:52):
um, that graphic novel Persisthat mm-hmm.
Is set in Iran at that exacttime in history.
And it talks about the worldfrom a little girl's point of
view.
And I very much.
I couldn't help having that inmind when I was reading about
Maryam.
Um, so yeah, Periplus byMaryanne Satrapi I would
(05:13):
strongly recommend because itdoes give you that kind of
context of what it's like to bea girl.
I bet a lot of our listenersgrew up in the eighties as well,
so at least they would have somelike something.
Awareness.
Yeah.
Like of world events that werehappening.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I've just realized that Igot so swept up in it that I
didn't talk about our sourcesfor today.
(05:34):
So very quickly, let me, let'sget those, let whiz through
that.
Um, uh, the good old BBC,there's a medium.
Dot com article all about herlife.
There was, material in Forbesand The Guardian, something
called Quantum Magazine, which Ithink is very science yourself.
Oh, your new subscription.
Very intellectual reading.
(05:54):
Um, good old Britannica and, theUniversity of St.
Andrews had a lovely piece abouther as well.
So those are our sources fortoday, and as I said, she grew
up in a troubled time.
You know that, that point Yeah,of course.
You're referencing, we're allkind of culturally aware of if
(06:14):
we grew it was a long war aswell.
Yeah, it was.
And although that was thepicture outside of her house and
in the world when she went outher front door within her home,
it was a very happy family.
Um, her dad was an electricalengineer, her mother.
Was a homemaker who knows whatshe would've time.
(06:36):
But what she was wastremendously encouraging of her
daughter's curiosity and spirit.
Her brothers.
Likewise, tried to encourage herand when they learned things at
school, they saw she wasinterested in science and math
and in whatever it might be,they would bring home material
(06:57):
for her to look at and read andreading was a big, a big
feature.
So apparently as a child, shewould tell herself bedtime
stories about a remarkablelittle girl who went into the
world and achieved wonderfulthings.
She was a mayor, or she traveledthe world, or she went on
adventures.
And so with that natural senseof imagination and love of
(07:21):
stories, Maryam imagined thatshe would become a writer.
There's a quote here about itactually.
When I was a kid, my dream wasto become a writer.
I spent my most exciting momentsreading novels, reading
virtually anything I could getmy hands on.
I mean, oh, I'm very tired andit made me quite emotional, you
(07:43):
talking about her dreams andstuff.
I was like, welling of, Aw,that's lovely.
It's, it is so charming and itjust gives you the insight.
These, these women that we talkabout this so often features
that they have.
This deep love of books, ofstories, and of reading, and I
think you and I both resonatewith that.
And I, I imagine lots of peoplewill, there's an adorable little
(08:05):
photo of her dressed up as anurse.
I know.
Apparently she loved to readbiographies of people like, Mary
Curie and, you know, she justreally, yeah, she had, that's
weird.
A real appetite for women meanwho were out there doing mean.
It's unusual for us.
Small child.
Yes.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Yes.
It's quite real for a smallchild.
(08:26):
Let's talk about the radi of,yeah, let's talk about that
poisonous element that Mary GIvows a bit dark.
Maybe this is her markingherself out from a really young
age as just having a rapaciouscuriosity about the world.
She went off to elementaryschool, uh, primary school, as
you would say.
Once she finished with thatthough, she was allowed to sit
(08:48):
the entrance exam for aprestigious school.
Okay.
It's called Farzana again,middle School for girls, and it
was managed directly by theIranian National Organization
for development of exceptionaltalents.
So it was, it was to foster thebest and the brightest.
(09:10):
Wow.
At that time in Iran, I imaginethat that was a rare thing, and
being in Teran will have gone along way to give her that
opportunity.
That's, and she smashed it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like, it just shows theimportance of those programs as
well, doesn't it?
The It really does.
How much they needed.
Yeah.
(09:30):
Yeah.
To spot that talent and, and.
As we'll say to, to bring it onand, and to bring it out into
the world.
So she got in, in the first weekof school.
She met her lifelong best friendwho was called Roya Beheshti.
They immediately bonded and theywould apparently go off to the
bookstores around the school,uh, during their, their breaks.
(09:53):
I know.
And they would buy, I know,they're so cute.
They would buy whatever bookswere cheapest, whatever was on
sale.
So they ended up reading.
Everything.
Like just, it's so good, isn'tit?
It's adorable, cutest thing.
These two year school girls withthe fuzzy little hair, right to
the bookstore.
Loving, loving the books.
Um, oh, that tiny little pocketmoney buying the really cute
(10:15):
books.
Oh my god.
I've got a crumble.
Oh my God.
Well, she and Roya would go offand do this.
They also obviously had theirclasses.
Maryam apparently didn't get offto a natural start with the
maths.
Um, she, in her first year had ateacher who told her, uh, that
(10:36):
she wasn't especially talentedin the subject, which apparently
really damaged her confidence, Ican see, and made her not very
interested.
Oh, it's horrible.
It's a horrible thing to say,and it could have been the end
of a remarkable story, right?
Because all it takes really isone person to kind of tell you,
(10:57):
well, no, no, that that's notfor you.
You're not good at that.
Especially when you are youngand you're fragile and you don't
have that thick skin and mm-hmm.
You probably haven't been toldthat before either.
That's like new, that's a newdata, especially you to absorb
are like a gifted child whoprobably is good at a lot of
different things.
(11:17):
It would be natural to just go,well, okay, I can't be good at
everything.
Fine.
But why would you say that to alittle girl?
Like what were you getting outof that?
I, yes, this, it's a really oddthing to have done in my
opinion, but luckily thefollowing year she ended up with
a different maths teacher.
I would say a better mathsteacher who encouraged her and
(11:39):
her natural talent started tocome So.
That was during her middleschool years.
And then in high school, uh,still at, uh, Forgan, um, Maryam
and Roya found a working paper,a practice paper that showed six
mathematical problems fromsomething called the
(12:01):
Mathematical Olympiad, which isan international maths
competition like Olympia.
Like, yeah, like the Olympics.
The Olympics.
Of Max.
Of Max.
Yeah.
That's where we're the Olympicsof Max.
Oh my God.
How old is she at this point?
Like middle?
She's probably about middleschool age.
Yeah.
Uh, just after middle school.
So between 16 and 18 years old,fine.
(12:22):
Just finds this paper and theythink, I know we're gonna have a
little go at it.
So they do, because maths is funbecause learning is.
Fun.
So they managed to solve threeof the six problems without any,
you know, support or, orteaching specifically for it.
And they, oh, God brought this.
I know.
(12:42):
No, I can't actually barelyscraped by the face level, but
you know, it's not a littleproblem.
Do you, you know it, the problemis like three lines low, isn't
it?
It's gonna be, um, yeah, it's,it's designed to weed out the.
The average student from thetruly mathematically gifted and
just without any, you know,support, they knocked out half
(13:05):
of them.
They brought that along to theirschool principal and they asked
her for mathematical problemsolving classes.
Uh, at that time in the Iraniancurriculum, that was only
allowed to be taught to boys oronly typically taught to boys.
Oh.
In the eighties.
(13:26):
Um, yep.
Again, this is the, it's theIslamic Islamic Revolution and
the women.
Had much akin to I think what'shappening in Afghanistan now.
Kind of a rolling back of what awoman's role and what a girl's
role should be.
But her principal of her schoolsaid, no, we, we are going to do
(13:49):
that for you.
Used her sway and as Miriamwould put it, her positive can
do mindset to arrange thoseadvanced maths classes.
Um, cool.
And previous to that, no girlshad ever participated in the
Iranian mathematical Olympiadteam, but the principal's work
paid off.
(14:11):
The female principal's work paidoff.
Mm-hmm.
And I think my immediate goodreaction is if that was a man, I
dunno if that would happen.
That's the concern, isn't it?
That Yeah.
It's another example of.
The luck of having supportwomen, good support and good
women around you, to, torecognize the potential you
(14:34):
need, you need cheerleaders inyour life.
If anyone's watching, absolutelylistening there to this, oh my
God, if you don't feel like youhave someone supporting you in
your corner, come hell, highwater.
Go and get one.
I'll do it.
Do it.
Get it.
You're super good at it.
Yeah, just, but it's so needed,isn't it?
Because.
(14:55):
It's not just the fact that shehad a positive can-do mindset,
it's she recognized that herselfand that little girl I bet.
At some level.
Right.
And she was willing to fight forher.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Um, well it worked becauseMaryam and Roya made the Iranian
(15:15):
Mathematical Olympiad team.
Yes.
Which it was a tremendous honor,but it also is done on merit,
like they.
They had to work to get intothat position.
Oh, damn right.
Yeah.
They had to be good enough.
Just they not letting anyoneinto the Olympics karara, you're
not letting any sausage inthere.
Exactly.
(15:36):
It was a really, really bigdeal.
So it gave Miriam bothencouragement and recognition,
but also an opportunity to goout and see the world, which
from childhood was a dream ofhers.
All those adventures that shewanted were starting to happen.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Yeah.
So her first competition was inHong Kong.
(15:58):
Amazing.
Uh, Mari, completely differentas well to like Iran, like ly
everything away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hong Kong in the eighties musthave been mind blowing.
Um, Maryam scored 41 out of 42available points.
She did and won a gold medal.
She did.
And Roya earned a silver.
So nice.
(16:18):
They, they represented theircountry beautifully.
Really did.
The following year in Toronto,Maryam got a perfect score of 42
out of 42 available points foranother goal.
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
She's doing, and this is thegirl who can't do math.
She's the girl who, oh, I don'tthink this is for you.
I think that teacher can't doteaching is what I think.
(16:40):
Yes.
But um, we are, that is thesummary.
Yes, yes, yes.
So that brings us up to 1995and, okay.
Feels very contemporary, doesn'tit?
It feels so contemporary.
Maryam is beginning to study forher degree in mathematics
mm-hmm.
At the Sharif University ofTechnology in Tehran.
(17:00):
Yeah.
Also, she got this Olympic medalwithout having a degree since Oh
yeah.
That, that level of competitionwas specifically for.
People of her age.
So it was Oh, okay, okay, okay.
Yeah, like there was a team inmy school for academic
decathlon, and it was, you wouldgo and do like quizzes and stuff
(17:20):
with kids, all kids.
So she was, it wasn't an adultcompetition or anything, but it
still was the, the absolute likegold standard cream of the crop
worldwide.
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
In fact, there's a little bitabout it here because her
university place was funded by afellowship.
From the Institute for thePromotion of Mathematics who are
(17:41):
deeply okay involved in that.
So, there's a little quote,well, a not so little quote here
that talks about the kind ofthings you can expect if you're
doing the exam for one of thesefellowships.
What kind of topics should youexpect?
Well, that depends on yourclass, but don't expect
questions straight out of atextbook.
(18:03):
Classes two to four, you'll seenumbers, patterns, basic
operations time, and a fewpuzzles classes, five to six, I
think, fractions, decimals,factors, and a bits of algebra
thrown in.
CLS is seven to nine.
You'll need to know equations,geometry, and how to play around
with data.
(18:23):
Spare him.
Come on guys.
You know what I mean?
Come kids, they're, they'restoked and I love it.
I love that the phrasing, likeplay around with data because I
think it, like personifies theapproach that Maryam had
throughout her career for hermath was something fun and
playful.
So, you know, that's sointeresting.
(18:45):
We'll get there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At any rate, she was able toscore highly enough to have her
degree fully funded.
And the university itself wasone of the leading physical
sciences universities in Iran.
So, you know, it's so the rightplace for her.
She gets there, she meets allthese other people who are just
on her wavelength, thesemathematicians.
(19:06):
And they all became friendsbecause they were so passionate
about their topic.
And they would have like.
Like little pickup problemsolving sessions for fun and
informal reading groups andliterally just could not get
enough of, of the math.
She also, whilst doing her firstyear of uni and beyond, was busy
(19:27):
publishing research papers,which.
Is amazing.
Ama.
I know.
My first year of uni, it's sohard to do.
How?
Like how I was pleased if Icould find a parking spot where
I wouldn't get a ticket.
Or if I found a place that soldcheap sandwiches like I was.
It's so true.
You're surviving, you're living,you're learning to live.
Survive as well.
Survive.
(19:47):
Survive.
Well, she went ahead whilstdoing all of that adjustment and
freshman, you know.
Yeah.
Concern and all of it.
To write the paper decompositionof complete tripartite graphs
into five cycles.
So there you go.
Go.
That's the kind of thing.
I know what it's meant.
Nope, not a clue.
(20:09):
Absolutely Greek to me.
Um, perhaps.
Oh, a simple proof of a theoremof Sure.
Okay.
What?
Sure.
Yes, sure.
S-C-H-U-R, who I assume is a,was a person academic in the
field of maths.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Throughout her university years,she's published is, is kind of
the headline there.
(20:30):
Mental, absolutely mentalinsane.
Whilst all of this is going onduring.
The Iranian revolution during,she had a, the first tragedy of
her young life, which was that abus that she and some of the
other students and a fewteachers were on, was on its way
(20:50):
back from a competition andcrashed into a ravine.
So of the students who were onthe bus.
And the teachers who were on thebus, I think that there were
nine deaths in total.
Many, many, many people injured.
She survived and went on tocomplete her and I didn't see a
(21:12):
lot about how this affected her,but.
She clearly is somebody who isnot going to be stopped and
yeah, who sort of pushes on evenwhen things are drastically,
drastically sad.
The vibe I'm getting is it'slike a calling.
(21:33):
It's like she can't help herselfbut do it.
She, she just has to get it outof her.
I think you're absolutely ontosomething.
She was willing to travel for ittoo.
She graduated university andmoved to the US to attend grad
school.
When she got to Harvard, whichis where she went, she had
seminars led by a man calledCurtis McMullen who had just won
(21:56):
the Fields medal.
This is not something I knowanything about.
So I've done a little likesuccinct explanation mm-hmm.
In case anyone else is just likethe what now?
Yeah.
So would you, would you mind.
Uh, the Fields Medal recognizesoutstanding mathematical
achievement for existing workand for the promise of future
achievement they're given everyfour years On the occasion of
(22:20):
the International Congress ofMathematicians And the laureates
must be younger than 40 yearsold.
Hmm.
So it's like the shiniest of themedals of the It's a big deal.
Yeah, it, it's a big deal.
It's what else is given everyIt's kind of coming back to that
(22:41):
like Olympics vibe that like,yeah, every so often they have
this big international mathsconference and they, they look
around the world and they say,who, who are the young rising
stars?
Who are the kind of rock starsof the field right now who not
only have done stuff but we cansee are going to go on to do
even more incredible stuff?
(23:02):
We should make it up.
We should have our own little.
Thing every four years.
Just recognize awesome people.
Just yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just somebody who's doing prettysimilar.
Pretty cool.
And make it a laureate.
I love it.
That's that.
Yeah.
Can we get a little gold medalminted?
I think that would be, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Definitely got, at least forthis, at least.
(23:23):
So here comes her professor withhis freshly minted fields medal.
He became her doctoral advisorand said that he was impressed
by her imagination and herdaring approach to problems.
So I think that's daring,forged, daring to to try new
things and to push, yeah.
Push things and ask why andquestion more deeply.
(23:46):
Love that.
And that speaks to thecomplexity of what she's doing.
She, we're not talking four plusfour, are we?
We are not, and in fact, we'repushing the boundaries.
I'm, I'm about to push yourboundaries.
I think because there's anenormous quote here.
Enormous, like almost a fullpage if you care to read it.
What I did was, because I do notunderstand this field
(24:09):
whatsoever, I thought I wannaknow a little bit more about
what her work was, right?
So I went off on a littleReddit.
Expedition and I found yes toread it.
Explain like I'm five ELI five.
This is what.
Hyperbolic geometry, which washer area of focus.
This is what it's all about.
So are you up for reading a megaquote?
(24:30):
In regular life, we look atstuff on flat surfaces, like the
shortest distance between twopoints.
If I want to walk from a point Ato point B, the quickest way is
simply walking in a perfectstraight line.
Cervical geometry is basicallydoing geometry on the surface of
a sphere instead of a flatsurface.
(24:50):
So now if I want to walk betweentwo points using the shortest
path, I can't walk directlybetween them and a straight
line.
The quickest way to fly fromLondon to Sydney would simply be
through the earth in a directstraight line, but that isn't
possible.
So we must fly along thecircular arc around the earth.
That's because Cara, the earthis round a sphere.
(25:13):
Exactly.
So we're better at this than wethought.
Hyperbolic geometry is likedoing geometry.
On a saddle shaped plane.
If I want to walk between twopoints on this type of surface,
I yet again cannot walk in adirect straight line as I.
(25:33):
As I would have to walk betweenthe surface and the thin air.
Do I get that?
So if you were to stick a littlestar on the outside edge of the
saddle, like where, where yourknee would need it, say, and you
were to put another star on theother edge of the saddle.
the, where the other leg wouldmeet it if you wanted to connect
(25:54):
those lines.
The quickest way, quickest wouldbe just like that.
Oh, we're talking about a horsesettle.
A horse settle.
Oh, right.
If you want walk between twopoints of any type of the
surface, I yet again cannot walkin a direct straight line as I
would have to walk above thesurface on thin air, which isn't
allowed, I must remain on thesurface at all times.
(26:17):
This means that the practical,shortest distance between two
points is going in a strangecurved line.
There will be non-parallellines, which don't have, which
don't, oh, which don't neverintersect the angles.
A triangle, some to less than ahundred degree.
I'm gonna cut this paragraphout.
(26:38):
It's too much.
So this is, this is theimportant one.
Oh no, that's me.
Like is too much.
This is too much.
I think the fact that it's toomuch is the point the, the fact
that even a rudimentaryexplanation of the mathematical
world in which she was engaging.
It's impossible.
The point this person's makingis that all the things we think
(27:00):
we understand about math about.
How many degrees the corners ofa triangle add up to about how
spheres and planes and lineswork.
The fact that parallel lineswill never meet and non-parallel
lines will eventually cross.
Yeah, all those rules are gone.
Hyperbolic geometry is.
Absolutely bonkers.
(27:21):
That's right.
That's the takeaway.
That's the, the, the fine, thesingle understood single line.
There's a picture that I'vepulled in from a master that
starts it's like that to melooks like a dog toy.
Beyond that I've got nothing.
It does.
Yeah.
But she's working with this.
Um, this is where Maryam isplaying in this wildly
(27:42):
difficult.
Impossible to deal with withintuition realm where none of
the rules really apply.
She makes herself at home there.
So her research, even at thiscomparatively early stage in her
career is bringing up newtheories and overturning
accepted thinking about how thisall works.
(28:04):
Um, she had, um, a dissertationabout this called Simple
Geodesics on hyperbolicsurfaces.
And volume of the modularizedspace of curves.
And I included that simple.
I thought that was hysterical.
Simple, simple.
Um, obviously I don't understandprobably the last 700 words that
(28:27):
either of us has said.
But people who knew knew andthey saw this was exceptional
work, like once in a generationthinking.
So it earned her the Leonard mand Eleanor b Blumenthal Award
for the advancement of researchand pure mathematics.
Hmm.
Uh, she was offered a juniorfellowship at Harvard, which she
(28:50):
declined.
She was given a clay researchfellowship and that allowed her
to have the time and space tothink about things.
She went off with thisfellowship to become an
assistant professor atPrinceton.
And she really relished thattime.
Here's something about her thatI think everyone can get behind
(29:12):
and appreciate.
There's a, a much smaller quotehere, if you would.
I am a slow thinker and have tospend a lot of time before I can
clean up my ideas and makeprogress.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because you're often criticizedfor being a slow thinker.
Mm-hmm.
Aren't you?
It's often like, make a quickdecision.
Make it, now capitalism.
(29:32):
Yeah.
Go, go, go suck every second outof every day.
And actually, yeah, like hustle.
Hustle.
Culture.
Hustle, baby.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the like, I kind of had anote here that the things that
we associate, the words weassociate with intelligence are,
oh, they're really quick,they're really sharp, they're
really fast.
Speed is a virtue.
But here she comes and she's.
Demonstrably an exceptionalmind, and she's going, I just
(29:56):
need to let things brew.
I need to think about it.
I need to work it over and workit over.
And I found that so delightfuland refreshing.
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, so she, she used thattime, it was fruitful.
She produced many more papersall around that wacky,
hyperbolic geometry world thatshe loved.
And then in 2006 she started acollaboration with a couple of
(30:21):
other mathematicians, Alex Eskinmm-hmm.
And Amir Hamdi.
And the three of them did somehuge breakthrough works in
Geodesics and.
Important as the work clearly isto people in that field.
What I think is superinteresting is how, how they and
she worked, so, mm-hmm.
(30:42):
There's another quote here fromEskin, talking about Maryam as a
coworker.
Aw.
She is very optimistic andthat's infectious.
When you work with her, you feelyou have a much better chance of
solving problems.
At first seem hopeless.
Oh, that's great.
Oh, isn't, isn't thatdelightful?
If that was on my performancereview, I'd be classic.
(31:04):
No one's saying that about me.
I'm telling you No.
Oh, but she, she came throughsuch difficult things.
I can't help but think that thatbuilds.
Uh, it builds a certain reserveand hope is such an active
revolution, you know, to beoptim optimistic.
(31:26):
I was thinking she probably gotit from her teacher.
It's very similar, positive, cando optimistic, infectious, like
they're very similar vein,aren't they?
Wonderful?
Maybe that teacher I dunno.
I love that.
It's a leap, but it's quitecool.
Like No, no.
I can see it like such a rolemodel.
I love this picture you've got,by the way, isn't that of her
(31:47):
like looking serene, gorgeous inher element?
Absolutely.
In her element.
I love it.
Look, face equations, that makesme feel sweaty and stressed, but
she's just.
her spot.
But s look beautiful, like allthe loops and the brackets it's
a very calm image.
I know obviously the backgroundisn't, but it, it feels calm.
(32:09):
I think for her it is.
It's a place, a place of joy.
And yeah, so there's a bit thatI kind of noted down a little
further along that talks abouther seeing mathematical
characters and, and.
You know, objects as thesecharacters in a kind of story,
in a narrative, and apparentlyshe would get these great, huge
(32:31):
roles of paper and roll them outand sketch things that I can
imagine.
Well, like you read thatdescription of what this
hyperbolic geometry involves.
Mm-hmm.
She's drawing things that bydefinition cannot be depicted,
but she's Ah, it's beautiful.
It is.
Yeah, it is beautiful.
And fluid and organic shefinishes her fellowship.
(32:54):
She is made a professor atStanford.
Finally.
Yeah.
Jesus.
I wrote about time and at thispoint she meets and marries Jan
Vdr, who is a Czech theoreticalcomputer scientist and applied
mathematician.
So bonding, describing their binon the math.
Uh, he's teaching over atPrinceton and then they had a
(33:16):
little daughter called in, uh,2011.
So.
At the 2014 InternationalCongress of Mathematicians,
which you will remember is a bigdeal.
Big deal.
Um, they give out Maryam.
Maryam made history by becomingthe first woman and the first
Iranian to receive the field'smedal.
(33:39):
Nice.
So, yeah, strong.
You know, you know, this is ahuge, huge step and, and she's
still so young.
She is 20 full of very young,but so full of promise and I
think.
She didn't give an acceptancespeech, but she did do
interviews and okay.
She talked in those interviewsabout what she felt was the most
(34:00):
important thing for her to getwhere she did.
So there's a little chunky quotethere.
I was very lucky in many ways.
The war, Iran Iraq War, whichlasted from 1980 1988, ended
when I finished an elementaryschool.
I couldn't have had the greatopportunities that I had if I
had been born 10 years earlier.
(34:22):
I went to a great high schooland had very good teachers.
I met my friend Roya ti thefirst week.
It is invaluable to have afriend who shares your interests
and helps you stay motivated.
Also, our school principal was astrong-willed woman who was
willing to go a long way.
(34:42):
I'm gonna cry to provide us withthe same opportunities as the
boys school.
Oh my God.
It's gorgeous, isn't it?
Oh, and it's just so full of.
Gratitude and recognition ofothers.
Yeah.
It's a remarkable testament toher character.
Mm-hmm.
How are you feeling up forbeating?
(35:02):
Another quote?
I think I'm just tired.
It is.
I feel like I'm putting youthrough the paces today.
I can do this one if you prefer,but I just thought it was a
really interesting thing becausemm-hmm.
When they were talking aboutthis award, going to Maryam, the
Fields medal panel reallyconsciously chose to open that
door to, okay.
(35:24):
To her as a woman working in thefield of maths.
Yeah.
Finally.
And it's like, it's good news,don't get me wrong, but it is
like we're in 2014 now, like,come on.
You know what I mean?
Professor Dane, Francis Kowan amember of the Medal selection
committee from the University ofOxford pointed out that despite
maths being used astraditionally, a male reserve,
(35:45):
women have contributed tomathematics for centuries.
Yes, we have.
She noted that around 40% ofmaths undergraduates in the UK
are women.
Yes, they are.
But that proportion declinesrapidly at PhD level and beyond.
Why is that?
There is so many reasons whythat is and why that doesn't
happen for men.
(36:06):
I could go on quote.
I hope that Maryam, beinggranted this award will inspire
lots more girls and young womenin this country and around the
world to believe in their ownabilities and to aim to be
fields medalists in the future.
Professor Ker one said.
Yeah.
Oh, I get it.
(36:27):
And I get that she's tried toput the stats in there and it
reminds me of that book,invisible Women that we are
Reading.
Like the World is not designedfor us sometimes and like.
It is not, it's not our faultthat 40% of mass graduates in
the UK are women, but then itdecreases.
(36:49):
That's nothing to do with this.
That is the society that hasbeen built.
Yet we are the ones having tofight for the society.
You know, I think that directlyacknowledging it.
And saying, we are deciding totake steps to do what we can to,
to redress this, to, to, tochange this.
(37:11):
I see.
And this all came down to ateacher giving her a shot.
Yep.
And it's like, ugh.
How many kids didn't get thatshot?
You know, Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm an emotional wreck.
So how about you carry on,because now I've gone from tired
to cry to angry all in in thatspace.
About 10 minutes.
Well, the rollercoaster willcontinue.
(37:33):
I'm afraid to say no.
Yeah.
So, um, we'll start with this.
Maryam, throughout her careerwas noted for her optimism and
her collaboration.
We talked a little bit about howplayful she was in seeing
mathematical.
Objects as characters and stufflike this.
Her colleagues also describedher as humble, that she really
(37:54):
only accepted honors because sheunderstood that it would inspire
other girls and women to followthat same path.
Uh, but despite her not seekingthose.
Honors.
They came.
They came.
So she had her fields medal.
She was given, I'm gonna justrun through this little bullet.
'cause apparently these are the,these are the big ones in that
(38:15):
field.
Um, despite the Emmys, theOscars, the Emmys, and the SCAs,
the whole works.
The Ruth Little Satter prize inmathematics, and she earned that
in 2013.
She was elected to the ParisAcademy of Sciences and the
American Philosophical Societyin 2015 to the American National
(38:36):
Academy of Sciences in 2016 andthe American Academy of Arts and
Sciences.
In 2017, she was invited tospeak at the international
Congress of mathematicians againand again.
Including the plenary lecture in2014, um, the year she was
elected, uh, nominated for theprize and won.
(38:57):
But sadly, even before she hadreceived the fields medal,
Maryam had been diagnosed withbreast cancer.
She continued to work throughouther illness, which I think
really goes to that point thatyou were making about vocation,
about just being her calling anda lot of her work, her most
significant discoveries.
(39:18):
They were during that, that timewhen she was ill.
eventually the cancer spread andshe died in 2017, just 40 years
old, which took from her lovedones this wonderful woman took
from the world of mathematicsthis incredible.
(39:39):
Bright star and I know it'srough.
So there's a quote here from hertalking about her illness.
Um, I think you're gonna have toread it.
I will cry.
Okay., So she says Life isn'tfair.
I was born in a loving family.
I was born with a smart head andhad good people around me.
(40:01):
I didn't complain about how fairthat is.
Many people in this world don'thave those things, so why should
I complain now?
Oh, oh.
Which is just brave.
Beyond imagining.
Yeah.
After she died her, well, Iguess her boss, it would've been
the Stanford president, markTessier Levine.
Said that she obviously was gonefar too soon, but that her
(40:24):
impact as a scholar and a rolemodel would be significant and
enduring.
Yeah.
Do you feel up to one lastquote?
Yeah.
Her ideas will live on for thethousands of women she inspired
to pursue math and science.
and he's dead.
Right?
Because her legacy.
Continues even now.
(40:45):
There are other people out thereworking on the foundations that
she laid.
Um, I wanted to mention inparticular to mathematicians
called Laura Monk and Ani andAraman, uh, who this year
extended Merriam's work onrandom hyperbolic surfaces, that
old favorite.
Yay.
Um, and it just goes to showthose ideas, although they're
(41:09):
already over a decade old.
Are generating new discoveriesin that absolutely bizarre
universe of hyperbolic geometrythat she began mapping.
So Maryam Mars's life, thoughobviously much too short, really
shows that that power of legacyand.
(41:32):
Her imagination and herperseverance and her
intellectual courage can turneven these bizarre, abstract and
challenging topics intoplaygrounds that can be enjoyed
and understood.
Along the way.
And she was so lucky.
She found her thing, she, shefound her thing and she ran with
(41:55):
it as far as she could, as quickas she could.
I mean, see what you think aboutthis, but I've got a sense that
whatever she turned her interestto.
Would have become her thing you,I think.
I think this was a special thingthat resonated for her because
God knows nobody would getinvolved in that if it wasn't,
(42:16):
but she just seemed to be such asparky inventive.
Determined.
Like hard worker.
I can't, if you can masterhyperbolic geometry, what can't
you do?
You know?
Yeah.
Fair, fair, fair.
Yeah.
But that's our gal.
That's our gal for today.
(42:37):
Oh, well, she's wonderful, isn'tshe?
And it's very, yeah, because Ihaven't even thought about the
things that are not flat or needmeasuring.
That has not entered my realm atall.
No, I don't want to.
No, I don't want to think aboutthese things, but I'm, I'm
stoked that somebody's enjoyingit.
(42:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like CAD wasn't a thing.
You know, all of that kind ofstuff.
None of this could be mapped inthose ways.
She was still pen and papering.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's pretty wild.
I love the pictures as well.
The pictures are so, um, Idunno.
(43:19):
But she shines.
She shines in all of thosethings too.
It's pretty cool.
I think the word that comes tomind is intensity, that she's,
she's got a depth to her thatcomes through in those pictures
and.
Uh, you know, that joy in, whatshe's doing.
What a cool cat.
(43:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not a bad suggestion at all.
No, that was a wonderful, thatwas a really, thank you so much.
Interesting thing to research.
My pleasure.
Thanks for listening.
I'm sorry for the emotional.
Oh, I think it's, um, turmoil.
I think it's me.
I dunno, like, I guess it isemotional as a story.
It is, yeah.
It is sad, but at the same time,the things that she achieved and
(44:02):
the way that she worked, Ithought so lovely.
Um.
Anyone who advocates for slowthinking and taking your time,
I'm on your side.
Yes, absolutely.
I immediately on that.
So new.
And it also shows that it takes,it takes different strokes,
right?
For everyone has something togive and contribute, and you are
(44:26):
Val, you add value, whoever youare, whatever you do in your own
way, you add value and thatmakes Yeah.
Well, thanks Kara.
My pleasure.
audio2663295054 (44:42):
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