September 30, 2025 • 45 mins
Who was Elizabeth Fry?
This episode dives into the life and legacy of Elizabeth Fry, a pioneering Quaker who transformed prison conditions in the 19th century. The narrative begins with Elizabeth's discovery of horrendous prison conditions at Newgate Prison. She implemented groundbreaking reforms, including appointing female officers for women prisoners, introducing craft activities, and providing basic education. Her influence extended beyond prisons, affecting hospital nursing standards and contributing to the abolition of transportation and slavery. Elizabeth's work earned her historical acclaim and recognition, including her appearance on the British five-pound note. The episode encapsulates her tireless efforts to promote kindness, dignity, and rehabilitation over punishment in various societal institutions.
Other episodes mentioned: 36. Betsi Cadwaladr and 8. Nellie Bly
00:00 Discovering the Power of Chatbots
02:23 Introducing Elizabeth Fry: The Angel of Prisons
03:23 The Quaker Influence and Early Life of Elizabeth Fry
10:37 Elizabeth Fry's Marriage and the Catalyst for Change
11:56 Transforming Newgate Prison: Elizabeth Fry's Mission
21:27 Elizabeth Fry's Secret Mission
22:24 Convincing the Authorities
23:48 Expanding the Reform Movement
24:43 Royal Support and International Influence
27:29 Personal Struggles and Continued Advocacy
30:12 Prison Reforms and Transportation to Australia
39:58 Legacy and Lasting Impact
Sources
https://averilopperman.co.uk/2015/09/24/elizabeth-fry-as-a-
child/#:~:text=Earlham%20Hall%2C%20Elizabeth%20Fry's%20childhood,Quakerism
%2C%20'Apology'%5D.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quaker
https://www.quaker.org.uk/faith/our-faith
https://www.elizabethfry.co.uk/who-was-elizabeth-fry/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rd45dlnnjo
https://www.quaker-tapestry.co.uk/2022/03/08/elizabeth-fry-and-the-patchwork-quilts/
EBSCO, "Elizabeth Fry | Research Starters"
EFRY Peel-Halton, "History"
Historic UK, "Elizabeth Fry"
MyLearning, "Who was Elizabeth Fry and Why is She an Important Figure? • Prison
and Penal Reform in the 1800s"
Wikipedia, "Elizabeth Fry"
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1427465471 (00:08):
I learned today at work that you can make a chat
bot.
So, you can use copilot to makea chat bot on specific guidance.
So we have this bucket or teamsite full of chalk block of
guidance, and people have beenmoaning that they can't find
anything.
Nobody's putting it in my eyesuntil today, until chatbot
(00:31):
little man, I guess he's a man,he's coming.
And um, I was like playing aboutwith it.
I was like, training him.
I'll tell you what this gonna.
That is amazing and it's gonnabe a game changer for parenting
because all the things that yourkids are like, where, how do I
do the laundry?
Ask.
Ask the chatbot.
I've told you, you ask thelittle, it's in there, body boy.
(00:54):
Oh my god.
Um, so that was nice.
That was.
'cause also the first two hoursof me trying to do that were
completely futile.
And I was like a bit grumpy andthen I went break.
Did you need a chat chatbot totell you how to use?
Well, no.
If anything he was confusing meeven more the, the, the, the AI
chat.
And then I went and brought thelaundry in and then I came down,
sat down, and then I found itturns out the chat bot would
(01:17):
only work in the teams app.
It wouldn't work in theSharePoint app.
And I was trying to do it fromthe SharePoint app.
Oh.
And they couldn't handle it.
But then when I came back aftermy break, I went in the teams
app and clicked co-pilot and itjust boom.
And I was on, you just neededthat.
Come on, come on.
Needed a reset.
Needed a two minute fresh airsunshine.
So yeah, that's been myafternoon.
(01:38):
And I've been looking forward toour chat'cause I've got a really
good story for you.
You've caught, you've caught meby surprise with who it is.
Have I?
'cause you, yeah.
You like hinted it might be onelady and then we took a
diversion and now it's somebodyelse.
So I'm like, oh, who did I hint?
Who's this?
Who did I hint?
You hinted.
Oh, I don't wanna do anyspoilers'cause you might still
be working on it.
Bass.
(02:00):
Oh, I didn't even look at thatone.
Isn't that funny?
I've got such long list of like,and I just cherry pick them
like, yeah, I didn't even lookat that one.
I think that's the way you justfollow your bliss and you end up
with these, I know what's goingon today and just feeling it.
Elizabeth Fry, which is veryexciting.
Um.
Would you like to get into it?
Yeah, let's go G.
(02:21):
Little intro.
Of course.
So in 1813, the stench ofNewgate prison was the smell of
Britain's darkest despair, ahuman pit where women and
children were locked in Riotous,filth awaiting transportation or
the gallows.
The hopelessness and despairseemed as though it would never
(02:41):
end until one day into this,hell stepped a Quaker instead of
recoiling and running to herwealthy mansion.
Elizabeth Fry didn't flinch.
Instead she introduced kindness.
And patchwork quilts to a worldthat only knew punishment and in
the process changed the futureof prisons, nursing and women's
(03:02):
rights forever.
This is the story of the Angelof Prisons, Elizabeth Fre.
Wow.
Incredible.
And I really would not haveexpected handicrafts to come
into it, so this is fascinating.
Andy kras said the linchpin ofthis story, so you you hold onto
that, onto craft.
I'm excited.
Yeah.
(03:23):
So, uh, loads of sources.
Loads of sources today, andparticularly quaker.org.
Quaker is gonna be a hugefeature of what we talk about.
Elizabeth fry.co.
Do UK uh, Quaker Tapestry.
There you go.
Getting in early with the, withthe tap, getting in early with
the craft.
Historic uk.
There's others that we'll put inthe show notes as well, so.
(03:44):
Let's set the scene a littlebit.
Uh, we're very English today.
We meet the daughter of awealthy Quaker banker.
So we are thinking wealthy, weare thinking prominent.
There's gonna be a few namedrops throughout this story,
which just shows you the levelof wealth we're talking about.
Um, the first name is Barkley,as in.
(04:06):
Barkley card as in the bank forglobal superpower.
Okay.
Yeah.
So her mother came from theBarkley family.
Ooh.
Yeah.
So high society, reallysuccessful.
We very high.
Yeah.
We could quite easily rest onour laurels and just play
croquet and yes, that's true.
(04:26):
And also quite happy childhood,I imagine.
'cause it's easier when you are.
Wealthy.
So her parents were the, were alove match, which is quite rare
I think, in some of our stories.
It was a very happy householdgrowing up.
But most importantly they were aQuaker family.
Do you know what Quaker means isI know that it is a religious,
(04:48):
persuasion, but.
Beyond, beyond what I've seen inFleabag and what little I know
from kind of Quaker societies inneighborhoods I've lived in, uh,
let's say.
No, I know basically nothing.
Um, well, you know enough, Ithink so.
A c it is basically a Christianoffset, so a Christian group.
Um, it was found in England inthe 1650s, and it's all about
(05:13):
direct personal experience ofGod for everyone and.
Because of that, it's veryindividualized.
So they often have lots ofsilent worship, and it's all
about serenity and peace.
It's very slow living, I wouldsay.
And they work on five values.
(05:34):
They have five pillars of theirreligion.
One is equality.
Peace, integrity, also known astruth, simplicity and community.
Oh, this sounds delightful.
I, right.
And then it gets better.
They don't use traditionalreligious structures or paid
ministers.
(05:56):
They have a sharedresponsibility throughout the
community because everyone has avaluable contribution to make.
Nice.
Maybe we are Quakers on theinside and we just didn't know,
oh yeah, if you could leave Godout of it, I'm in.
Like, um, and it's still veryprominent.
(06:17):
Their website was really,interesting about how they work
today.
They don't have like traditionalon this day, you do this or you
have to worship here.
It's very much just whateverfits for your community, like
that's how you gather.
So it all looks very.
Different today it's quitediverse in how they run.
But I think in the way it ran inEngland previously was a little
(06:39):
bit more structured.
The story today actually is in1780.
So, um, kind of the time we weretalking about Mary Anning kind
of that time.
Okay.
so Mary Anning was south.
We are going East, east Englandtoday in Norridge and Norridge
was.
Dominated in this in the 17hundreds by the textile
(07:01):
industry.
They were known for high qualityShaws and it also had a growing
bank sector.
It had like its mini metropolicy of banks because, it was
so far away from London.
So you could set up like anotherongoing kind of society there.
Both of those things are gonnacome up quite a lot.
We've already mentioned bankingand we'll mention crafts going
(07:23):
forward.
But what comes with bigfactories in olden I'm thinking
pollution and I'm thinking,yeah.
Child labor.
Um, absolutely lots of childrenin factories, um, and quite.
Scary to me.
(07:43):
Yeah.
I always dangerous, felt quitescared when we learned about it
as kids.
Yeah.
So that is just the flip side,,of the wealthy society that I've
pictured.
And then actually, you know, aswith life, when there's rich
people, there's poor people.
You might not just see them.
So Elizabeth was born inmagdalene Street in Norwich
where she lived until she wasfive and she had 10 siblings in
(08:05):
to Wow.
So lots of people.
Her father was a guy called JohnGurney.
He moved his family a few Marsout of Norwich into a very kind
of ty kind of place calledEarlham.
It was an estate and it wasactually, it didn't belong to
them, it was entailed to theBacon family, but.
And they had such a long lease,the gurneys on this estate that
(08:28):
loads of generations of familyhave lived there.
And because it was so big,basically we're thinking big,
almost.
Um.
Rolling rounds, you know,meandered around a river like
Downton Abbey type fight.
Very, very Downton Abbey.
Today it's actually part of thelaw school there, so East LERs
(08:48):
Law School.
So it's still there today.
But very, very picturesquethere.
Beautiful.
So Elizabeth's there having alovely time.
Her mother sadly dies when she's12.
And that is the.
Like the biggest mark onElizabeth's childhood.
It was a really big loss,obviously, and she didn't handle
it necessarily as well as theothers.
(09:10):
So she had night terror.
She used to creep into herparents' room, and check, her
mother was still breathing whenshe was poorly'cause she was so
scared of losing her.
So sad.
And yeah, it was a real, biganxiety driver for Elizabeth.
So when the mother died, hereldest as happens in history all
(09:31):
the time.
The eldest daughter then becomesmother basically.
So they kind of close ranks.
They pick up the pieces, theyjust try and, move on with their
life.
Elizabeth was already quiteshaky before her mother died
anyway.
And she was also described as adelicate child, quite a sickly
child anyway, so she also had,neuralgia so that confined her
(09:51):
to her bed.
So I think there was just a lotof anxiety around sickness in
general.
Her brothers were allowed to goto school.
The girls were, and they werehomeschooled, you'd think within
a big family she'd, you'd bequite ballsy, wouldn't you?
Like you kind of have to fightat the table.
Yeah.
To be heard, that kind of thing.
But actually that led Elizabetheven further into like a timid
(10:15):
nature.
Someone who struggled withanxiety, quite isolated.
She was just, you know, andthere's nothing wrong with this.
It's not, it is just one ofthose things, isn't it?
Some people are quieter andthat's okay.
So that kind of sums up herchildhood, you know, very
blissful, but a slight blemishhere or there.
Things get interesting when shemarries.
(10:37):
So normally it's when they die,but now she's married the man.
Um, she marries Joseph Fry in1800 and this is Joseph Fry from
the chocolate company.
Oh, okay.
I'm a fan of his work.
Yeah.
Um, so Fry's.
(10:58):
Is fries qua?
Do you have it?
It's English.
I don't think so.
I think it's very English.
Yeah.
It's now owned by Cadburys.
People might know Cadburys forsure, which are then owned by
somebody else.
But anyway, so she married achocolate man.
Wonderful.
And moved to London.
In London.
She meets up with her Quakerbuddies'cause obviously it's a
religion.
You can, it's a very easy way totap into a society.
(11:21):
And, she makes friends.
One of those friends is a guycalled Steven Relet.
It's him who actually, whentalking to Elizabeth one day,
encourages her to visit a localprison.
This on top of Quaker beliefs ofbelieving that all people are
equal, trying to, do good deedswith your life.
(11:42):
Some, you know, all integrity,truth, all those things we were
talking about earlier.
This kind of compels her tovisit.
She wants to go and see what'sgoing on and see if she can
help.
Right?
So this prompts her visit.
It's a Newgate prison.
This is the catalyst of thestory.
This is the moment that reallydefines her life trajectory,
where she's going, what sheachieves, what we've learned
(12:03):
about today, all within this onevisit.
So Newgate Prison is in London.
At the time, it is known forpublic execution.
So it's a prison and on theoutside they have executions.
I dunno.
People used to go and see thatit was fun.
Apparently some people like it.
(12:25):
Yeah.
I don't think we've actuallychanged that much as a species,
but Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it was Linda's mostnotorious jail.
It had been in operations sincethe 12th century, and it is
known as, um, the worst everprison to, as from then to
today.
Like you can see YouTubechannels that are calling it the
(12:46):
worst ever prism.
It was so bad that at one pointthey just didn't.
It's one of those things like, Iguess they do it with murderers
houses sometimes, like whereit's so dark they just knock it
down.
They just, it's better just toget rid.
And actually today it's wherethe old Bailey is.
Oh, okay.
Which is London Central CriminalCourt.
You'll often see it on BBC Newswhen there's a big case.
(13:07):
It's very fancy inside a veryfancy pants.
Um, and only a small section ofthe prism remains.
So it's mainly the old Bailey SoElizabeth goes, to this
notorious, horrible, scaryprism, and it's so bad that the
jailer actually says, mom, Idon't think you should go in
there.
Like, I think it's verydangerous.
(13:28):
And um, uh, I think he callsthem.
I haven't written it down, whichis strange.
Maybe I have later.
I think he calls them animals inthe thing.
So that's how he's describing itand he's really trying to warn
it as a off off.
But she insist, she says, I'vetold my friend Steven, I'm gonna
go and do this.
I'm gonna go and do this.
(13:49):
And in there what she observesis quite harrowing.
It's, women and children mixedup in the same.
Places of men, first of all,crowded, filthy, no beds, no
bedding,, lack of food, lack ofsanitation, um, just basics are
out the window.
(14:10):
And what I would say is if youhave listened to our Nelly Bly,
chat, that it's very similarabout,, we really go into a lot
of detail there about details atthe time because Nelly Bly wrote
those diaries.
So I'd go to that even thoughit's across the water, but it's
similar timeframe.
And what I really remember fromthat chat about Natalie Bly is
(14:30):
that the bread was moldy whenthey did get bread.
It was covered in mold and thatthey used to chuck water,
freezing cold water on them toclean them.
And, you know, so these arereally disgusting conditions.
What wasn't mentioned in thenearly by case was children.
And here we have the presence ofchildren, and people who are
(14:51):
awaiting trial living in theseconditions.
And, a lot of them were wait,awaiting deportation.
They were often drunk andviolent.
This is what Elizabeth was metwith and if you think about from
that down to Abbey RollingHills, that's where she's come
from and this is what she'sseeing.
One of the most harrowing linesthat I found about this was
(15:14):
actually from a historian,Rosalyn Crone, um, who is from
the Open Uni.
And, she did an article for theBBC on Elizabeth Fright and she
described, one of theexperiences that Elizabeth had
where she saw women takingclothes off a dead baby in order
to give them to a living one.
(15:35):
I know.
So it's dark.
We're in dark territory.
Sounds like there was no hair ora sense of like being
responsible for these people andtheir children at all.
Like it was just in you go sortyourselves out.
It was almost about hiding themfrom society, I guess.
(15:55):
Right, right.
That such a parallel to theNellie Bli thing, like what's
happening behind closed doors?
Nobody's aware.
'cause why would anyone everfind that out?
Yeah.
Oh God.
It is quite, it's, it is quitegut wrenching.
It's, um, quite.
I haven't even spoken about thesmell.
Can you imagine how it wouldsmell?
(16:16):
Oh my God, that place was insitu being run that way since
the 12 hundreds.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It doesn't bear thinking about,um, fry describes it as,, a
dreadful scene of misery, riot,idleness and vice of every
description.
So prim lady in society, youwould think that.
(16:41):
Um, Elizabeth would dust herdress off, put her bonnet on,
and walk out and carry on withher day.
Probably feeling very grateful.
I imagine probably feeling very,thankful, but then, oh, I don't.
That's not for me, but that'snot what happens at all.
If anything, she continues tovisit.
(17:01):
So this became the first ofmany, many visits that,
Elizabeth would make to NewgatePrim.
where Elizabeth comes from ispure empathy.
Just, just like you, Kara, justlike you were showing a few
minutes ago, but she wanted, tohelp and she, she was inspired
by these women in squalor tohelp push for better conditions.
(17:22):
So, just to kind of get a senseof what Elizabeth was feeling at
that time, and this is a quotefrom her journal, if you're
happy to read that for us.
This has been a time of deephumiliation to me.
This witnessing the effect ofthe consequences of sin, the
poor creature murdered her baby,and how inex expressively awful
(17:46):
now to have her life yeah.
That was the description of afemale prisoner who was waiting
execution.
So.
It just shows that these, it'sbleak, isn't it?
It is hella bleak.
That is the extreme margins.
Um, and I, you know, I'm sure weall have questions about how
(18:10):
robust courts and process ofproving guilt were.
Mm-hmm.
So you wonder how many peoplewere there?
That's so true.
Who should not have been, whowere innocent, right?
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think it also kind ofshines what reality was.
'cause I think we look back onthat time as a society and to me
(18:33):
anyway I do of charm and likeyou think Oliver Twist, you
think Sweeney Todd, you thinkall these things where we've
made it into an entertainingthing.
Um, but actually when you startto think about this woman sat
there.
Um.
She killed her baby'cause sheknew she was gonna die.
Like what do you pull from that?
Like those positive, you know?
(18:55):
So this is what Fry is presentedwith, but she goes on a mission
and Professor Rosalyn Crow, sheexplains three ways that.
Elizabeth goes about this.
First off, she gets womenprisoners looked after by women
officers.
Really plain, really simple.
(19:15):
She gets them supervised by asuperintendent or a matri, and
she makes sure that the womenare safe.
They do not have access to menunless they are chaperoned by a
female.
And this is, how ladies shouldbe and be pretreated and things
like that.
That's kind of where she'scoming from.
So that's the first fundamentalthing she charges for.
The second is that, theseprisoners don't have anything to
(19:38):
do.
They're just sat there in theirthoughts, in their despair and
what's the answer to thatCrafts.
He's like, I know what's gonnafix this.
Sewing, knitting, quilting.
She uses her contacts from thetextile world, from her big
business contacts to bringproducts in so that they can
(20:01):
knit and sew and thing.
But actually in the end, whatthe women, when she taught the
women how to make these things,they were so good that they were
sellable.
So then she had a network ofpeople on the outside of the
prison that you could sellproducts to and give the
earnings back to the women.
So that they could, I dunno,afford a solicitor, afford
something to, in order to, um,get them out of that hellhole.
(20:27):
So she occupies their timethrough crafting and then she
also occupies their time throughreading, writing, schooling,
arithmetic, all that kind ofstuff.
Just basic life skills.
Right.
And then the final thing thatshe wanted to do with them was,
which is probably the hardestone, is convince them of
religion.
So convince them that if theyopened up to the God, if they
repented for their sins, theywould turn their lives around
(20:50):
and help create a better societyoutside of Prism.
So she had a three-prong attack,very strategic.
She knew what she was doing, andshe knew better than to ask for
permission.
She was, she just.
Did it.
She didn't want to ask theauthorities, she didn't wanna
ask the City of London.
She kind of just was likesneaking woolen, like, and see,
(21:14):
and just visiting, I guess herview, like it had been neglected
and ignored to the detriment ofit, and everybody who was
involved with it.
So, you know, they had theirchance.
So why should she?
Um, so she kind of does this insecret, you know, she kind of
gets this going under the radar.
(21:36):
She brings, a band of ladies,quote unquote together called
the Ladies New Gate Associationbecause she has., On the outside
a network of Quaker people whoare living by her values.
So very easy to convince thatthis is the right way to go.
Because, you've got thataffiliation.
And then she actually startedbringing people into mental
specific women prisoners.
(21:57):
So to really build thoserelationships, which is just so,
oh my God, admirable.
It's amazing.
Then once it's going well, whenshe's like, actually this is a
success and things have gotcalmer.
The, um, and she had, I guess,evidence, didn't she, that the
behavior has changed that, thesepeople, aren't.
(22:18):
Causing a raw'cause.
They're not dangerous.
You know, they're sat hereknitting for heaven's sake.
It's gonna be, it's a differentvibe, isn't it?
So when she had that firstdiscussion with the warden right
at the start, um, so in April,1817, which I think is four
years, Yeah, four years aftershe first visited, that's when
(22:39):
she takes it to the authorities.
That's when she's like, okay,this is enough now.
That's a long, and it just showsyou how secret it was, doesn't
it?
Like very under the rates areslowly, slowly catchy, monkey.
People in the authoritiestraditionally may I imagine were
absolutely flabbergasted thechange of the women.
They were known to be quiet,obedient.
Sober because they had otherpurposes in life, right?
(23:02):
So this is just a quote aboutElizabeth reflecting on her time
at Newgate and how, what shemanaged to do.
To my surprise, we have beenenabled to demonstrate how much
may be done amongst theseunhappy outcasts, merely by
kindness, accompanied byinstruction and employment.
(23:22):
Quite right.
I love not only that she had theright instincts about how to
help.
But that she had cunning, thenouse to sit on it until she had
amounted enough evidence toirrefutably say, this has
worked.
It is working.
(23:43):
Let's go.
Let's do this everywhere.
It's killer.
Right?
It is really cool.
Yeah.
And off the back of that, shejust kept building it.
So in 1821, she formed theBritish Society of Ladies for
promoting, the Reformation ofFemale Prisoners, which is quite
a mouthful.
We could probably give her somemarketing tips, but that's fine.
Yeah.
Could be stuck here.
(24:03):
But she was like, Hey, this isNewgate.
Newgate is the worst, but it'snot the only one.
Right.
There's gonna be so many moreprisons out there.
Like you said, let's go.
And she had a system in place.
She was ready in 1823.
The Girls Act was introducedinto Parliament and it actually
used some of her ideas.
So that made it law to haveseparate areas for men and
(24:26):
prison and women guards forwomen prisoners.
And it's stuff like this, youcould just take for granted
nowadays, don't you?
But actually there had to be atime where someone was like,
yeah, we should really writethis down.
Yeah, like it seems like commonsense, but.
Yeah.
And it just kept escalating andescalating.
So she traveled widelythroughout the country meeting,
(24:47):
different heads of authoritiesand things like that., And she
even met with Queen Victoria.
And not only just met QueenVictoria, she was a big thing
bearing of mind.
Queen Victoria was the head ofthe British Empire back then.
She was a very, very, veryimportant lady.
She'd convinced Queen Victoriato give her money to help with
the campaign.
And if you think of like.
(25:07):
Off with her head royalty kindof reputation of monarchs back
then to be giving money topeople in squalor and to people
who are the outcast, the badeggs of society.
Elizabeth must have done somepretty sweet talking, right?
Yeah.
The way she must have beenpersuasive.
(25:28):
So we don't just stop there.
We meet Queen Victoria, but wealso meet other heads of state.
So we are going wide with ourprison reform.
She actually writes a book whichis UK based, so Scotland and
North of England.
But, she does do this acrossseas as well.
In her book she writes that, sheoften stayed, the night in and
(25:51):
not only her, but she wouldinvite noble people to come and
stay and see for themselves thecondition of the prisons.
So she's like, you have no idea.
Come and have a look and see foryourself, and then you'll get
one talking about, I dunno howshe deserve.
I can't even get people to writea report, so I dunno how she
managed to get people to staythe night in prison.
But, you know, she, she reallydid influence and, you know,
(26:17):
come and see for yourselves.
It's this kindness that helpedher gain the friendship of the
prisoners themselves when they,especially when they see the
improvements Um, and it sohappened that one of her many
brother-in-laws, remember she'sgot 10 siblings Yeah.
Happened to be an mp.
So he was selected.
(26:37):
I mean, statistically it wasgonna happen.
That that's just so many people,like so many people in high
society.
Yeah, it makes sense, doesn'tit?
So this is Thomas Foel Booktonand he becomes basically her
beeline to Westminster.
He's, he, she's got his ear.
We know how persuasive she is.
She gets these people to spendthe night in prison, like it's
(26:57):
fun.
And, it begins promoting herwork in and around his network
of mps Like I said, we do gooverseas.
So she does go to Ireland in1827 and visits a women there.
She encouraged the people ofBelfast, the women of Belfast,
to organize their own committee.
(27:19):
'cause she's like, look, this iswhat we did.
If you set up a committee or anassociation, you can really get
stuff done.
And she managed to help not justprisons, but also poor houses.
Just to cheek a reminded thatshe is married and she comes
from a big family and shecontinues to have a big family
and she has 11 children duringthis time that time.
(27:42):
who wants that?
11.
Um, too many.
But then she probably.
Didn't like hands-on parent themin the way that you or I would
be thinking.
Yes, that's true.
She probably like went there.
You go off, you go to nurse.
A nanny each.
A nanny.
Yeah.
If we've got Barkley money, it'sa nanny Perchard, isn't it?
Yeah.
So, um, but this is a reallyinteresting detail I found was
(28:04):
the, actually her husband wentbankrupt himself.
In 1828.
Yeah.
Um, so they couldn't afford tolive in fancy London anymore.
They moved to West Ham up.
Tim Lane not offending.
We're not offending anyone.
I'm just saying people in WestHam are like, what the hell man?
Like I paid a lot to live hereat the time.
(28:27):
It was the outer margin.
It's all contextual team.
Her brother then becomes thebusiness manager for her
husband.
Because of that, and he couldcontrol the bankruptcy, that
meant that she could continue todo her work.
She wasn't like employment oranything, heaven forbid.
But it also means that I thinkit was a really interesting
detail because it reaffirms thatyou can fall at any time.
(28:50):
Like you are no different fromthese people in this prison.
You know, if you were born indifferent circumstances or if
you had different circumstancesput upon you, you could quite
easily be in that situation.
And it just highlights again,the need for That's a really
good point.
So it's a sort of a, just a lifelesson in humility.
If you can go broke trying tosell chocolate.
(29:11):
Nobody's safe.
Like everyone wants that.
Everyone wants chocolate.
It's a need.
So I've kind of whizzed througha big timeline there.
We're now in like 1820s, but Ijust wanna, I just wanna take a
little meander back, just alittle loopy, loopy loop back.
To 18.
18 because this was a big time,in Fry's life.
Like I said, she'd got her newgate system of Pum and she was
(29:34):
actually invited to giveevidence.
This is not just an opinion,this is hard fact evidence to
the House of Commons in theBritish Parliament.
And doing that, she became thefirst woman ever to present
evidence in the house as Sothat's quite a court to
accolade, isn't it?
Yeah.
And actually the word evidencereally stuck out to me.
(29:56):
'cause that means they're gonnabelieve what she says.
'cause it's evidence.
It's fact, isn't it?
She's an expert.
She's coming in.
Yeah.
Authority.
Astute of them to recognize herskill and, yeah.
Knowledge.
Yeah.
Not just, I thought it wasbrilliant.
Yeah.
Um, so, but 18, 18 is alsoanother very key year in
Elizabeth's life because it'sthe year where the government
(30:19):
decide to send women convicts toAustralia.
This is a dark part.
Um, I dunno if you ever saw theseries Banished on BB, C.
It's a, it was like a six partdrama and it had that guy Russ
Tovi, I think the guy Oh, I likehim.
Yeah, he's in everything.
(30:40):
He's just brilliant.
He's just been, he's ineverything part of everyone's
life.
For so long anyway.
He was in it.
I loved it.
It was about 10 years ago now,but I thought it was brilliant.
I'd recommend digging it out onthe iPlayer.
It got canceled quickly, Ithink,'cause it was very
expensive to run.
But it, it follows the, whathappened when the ships landed
on the beaches and Australia andwhat happened then.
(31:01):
Oh, see.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
As you can imagine taking thefacts of what we've learned
about Newgate and the prisons,you can probably imagine what
the conditions were like, inAustralia and on the way to
Australia.
So we've got a couple of quoteshere.
They're quite meaty.
transportation was traumatic.
(31:24):
The women and children wereherded into flat carts,
manacled, and wearing leg irons.
They were then pulled throughthe streets to the jeers of the
townspeople, pelted with rottenfruit and vegetables and sods of
soil arriving at the ship,terrified and filthy.
They remained in the ship's holdfor the entire 17 week voyage,
(31:45):
17 weeks.
We're on this damn ship.
Isn't that insane?
Comfort of a sea of a ship atthat time in history was
diabolical even for people whopaid a fortune for luxury.
Yes.
That's so true.
I to not see the sun or thehorizon, and presumably most of
(32:08):
these people will never havebeen in a boat in their lives.
That is.
Beyond human endurance.
That is, it's disgusting,absolutely disgust.
And for children to be treatedthat way, they've done nothing
No one should face that.
Oh, I feel very strongly aboutboats, as you know.
Yeah.
This is, as I do, this is reallyquite upsetting.
(32:29):
Oh, um, I'm sorry.
It's not the end of the boat.
Oh.
So, um, but don't you worry, soif Elizabeth.
Reformed Newgate prison underthe radar Very quickly, what do
you think she does with theboats?
Oh, on Elizabeth, come on.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, Her staple, iscrafts.
They make a reappearance.
Don't you worry.
(32:50):
We're gonna craft our way out ofthis.
Okay.
So, Elizabeth arranged thatwomen would be transported in,
closed carriages un.
Manacled, at night and allowedfood outta the hole once the
ship had sailed a mile becauseby the time it had been a mile,
they could, it was too far tospin back, right?
If they jumped, they jumpedright.
(33:12):
The boredom of the 17 weekvoyage would often lead to
fighting and gambling.
So Elizabeth was like, I knowhow to combat this, fighting and
gamble in.
I've got some crafting that youcan be doing while you are on
there.
So here's an explanation of whatElizabeth's solution Each woman
(33:33):
was to have a bag of usefulthings containing clothing, a
comb and brush, soap and towels,a bible, spectacles, a plate,
cutlery, material, wadding.
Needles, a thimble and threadseverything needed to make a
patchwork quilt.
During those long days at sea,over 12,000 prisoners received a
(33:58):
bag and Elizabeth Fry visitedeach of their 106 ships.
Yeah, she went on every ship andgave out her the cutest thing.
Oh my It's amazing that likebread and roses thing of we
don't just need to feed and keepthese people physically safe,
(34:18):
which obviously we do, but thatis, that is necessary, but not
sufficient.
We also need to recognize theirthinking, feeling human beings
just like we are, they needsomething to do and.
What, a babe.
I love her.
The detail that really got mewas spectacles.
Like, to me that was just soholistic.
(34:39):
And so it was like, well, yeah,they're gonna be, they're gonna
need to see what they're doing.
And it was just like, um, darkin a ship's hold.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah.
And I bet they probably neverhad had spectacles You know what
I mean?
With a life changing for peopleactually.
Yeah.
And we're not just quilting forthe fun of it.
Cara like quilting is fun, butit's, it's gonna help these
(34:59):
people even more because whenthe ships were dock prospective
employers would meet the shipsfor free labor.
And obviously it's better to bein the labor world than it is to
be homeless.
And a well-made quilt would showthat the convicts were
industrious, clean, and willingto work quietly at a given task.
(35:20):
So that's their cv.
Oh, like behold, yeah, here's mycv, I can do this.
Um, so she didn't just give thema fun project to do.
She gave them self-respect.
She gave them hope, she gavethem a longevity.
And, um, this starting of thiswork was actually what would
(35:41):
lead to the, a pollination oftransportation.
In 1837.
So not only was she was like,this is terrible, I'm gonna fix
it.
She's gonna root cause this aswell.
And actually the ships did stopsailing to America in there's a
quote from Rosalyn Crow there,if you I just think it's
(36:03):
remarkable because you see itjust spreading through society.
It then becomes a thing inhospitals too, that women should
be taken care of by women, orthat there should be some kind
of female chaperone present.
It's something we take forgranted now when we go to the
she added, True.
Which is true, isn't it?
And it's a beautiful segueanother, door of the vestibule
(36:29):
of what Fry got up to because in1840 she opened a training
school for nurses in guys So shewas so strong on women.
And those pillars again, ofQuakers, we keep going back to
that, of serving your communityintegrity and peace, and that's
(36:55):
what she wanted to spread.
So she started the Institutionof Nursing Sisters a.
And it was actually this programthat inspired Florence
Nightingale to be one of Fry'snurses, to assist people in the
crime main war.
Now the crime war comes up a lotin this pod.
You Yes, because it's not onlyFlorence Nightingale that was
(37:18):
inspired by Elizabeth Fry,Florence Nightingale meets Betsy
Cara in one of our episodes.
Um, who.
Has her own journey and her ownmiraculous things going on, and
it just shows how many womenwere changing history at this
time in their own ways.
(37:39):
Right?
It's very exciting.
And basically she was justdeveloping saints after saints
after saying she just made thislike conveyor belt of them.
And this was on top of herprison reform, her humanitarian
efforts, like we explained withthe ships.
And, she sought to tackle avariety of social issues on top
of this, she.
(38:00):
Also improve the life of thehomeless by setting up shelters
in London, opening up soupkitchens.
This particular endeavor wasinspired when she saw the dead
body of a young child who didn'tsurvive winter that year.
And she was like, okay, I can dosomething about this.
You'll notice there's a trendthroughout her or her.
(38:21):
Endeavors that they'respecifically to help women and
children, but particularly thosewho are having a hard time with
it.
Just like she was at risk ofwhen bankrupt.
Elizabeth's desires for betteroverall conditions in different
institutions also included theproposed reform of mental
(38:43):
asylums.
Again, this harks back to NellyBly and what she did with mental
assignments.
So it is very much just seeing afire, tackling it, seeing a
fire, tackling it.
And because of that, she becomesso widespread, both
geographically, but in alsotypes of, challenges that people
are facing and.
(39:03):
Alongside her fellow Quakers,she does eventually start
campaigning for the, abolitionof slavery.
She does a lot, such a naturalfit, isn't it?
Yeah.
That you, you see the, the waythat people are having to live
and you think No, and it justopens your eyes, I suppose, to
more and more.
(39:24):
What's wrong and why not?
Especially if you're gettingsuccesses especially if you're
seeing the real, powerful workof quilting.
Like, why wouldn't you, whywouldn't you wanna show it to
somebody else, or, you know,help in a.
Helps a different marginalizedsociety.
It's wonderful.
And it is, and I don't think shecould have got a far, if she
(39:45):
could, without the Quakercommunity, because she had that
network set up ready to go,didn't she?
She just tapped into it, boththe Quaker community and I guess
her, industry to contacts..
Let's leverage that.
And that is very smart,Elizabeth passed away in 1845.
More than a thousand peopleattended her memorial.
(40:06):
It's insane, isn't it?
And there's lots of, legacythings.
To, note about her, probably themost easy reference is that she
was on the British five poundnote for, I can't remember how
long.
It was for about 15 years,something like that.
I found an interesting blogabout it that actually that
(40:26):
wouldn't have sat well with herbecause it's everywhere and
because of her, Quaker, Values,I guess.
But also if we hop back to thatanxious child who was isolated
and quiet and timid and scaredshe probably didn't want that
you, she, it doesn't really fitwith that personality of that
(40:47):
child we started with.
Does it?
I can see that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought that was a reallyinteresting note in the blog
anyway.
Yeah.
your point.
Yeah.
If I was her as an introvert.
Now dead and able somehow tocomment on it.
I would like to think that Iwould be pleased to example that
(41:12):
can have hope and challengethings that are really truly
unacceptable and terrible andmake a difference because.
Her image being on that notemight have inspired somebody to
go find out about her and thatmight have inspired them to
think, ah, okay, stuff canchange.
So hopefully her, like overallmm-hmm.
(41:36):
Opinion of it would be positive.
'cause I think it's, yeah, itis.
Great.
Come on Elizabeth, take the win.
That was beautiful.
I really hope so um, she alsohas a statue at the now old
Bailey.
Um, it is phenomenal.
The statue.
It is marble.
It is massive.
It's in the most beautiful hallthat they've got.
(41:56):
It's very green GOs in HarryPotter.
It's stunning.
And obviously that is the siteof the new tourist, prison new
gate where she began all hertireless work to, improve
things.
And also I think Queen,Victoria's like round the
corner, wow.
Yeah.
Um, there's lots of blue plaquesand different things around the
(42:16):
country, both, in Norwich and,um, in London.
There is the Elizabeth FryRefuge, which it was established
to provide shelter for destitutewomen.
Particularly those were releasedfrom Prism.
There's lots of institutions andbuildings named after her and
quite right because she was anabsolutely incredible woman.
(42:38):
Her legacy, like literally justas you said, that is like a
beacon of hope All theselegacies are very much a
testament to all the power, thecompassion, the determination,
and she saw that the absoluteawful conditions for women in
places like that prism.
And she didn't walk away.
(42:59):
She chose to stay.
She chose to fight it.
She chose to fix things, and shebelieved in her values so
strongly that it just rippledthroughout her life.
And she showed that people canbe treated with dignity and not
punishment, and that actuallythe rehabilitation does work and
(43:21):
her work shouts that when youapproach the world's toughest
problems with kindness andpracticality, you can spark
monumental, lasting change, andyeah, what a powerful legacy
that is.
Oh, thank you so much forbringing that.
What an Person what?
Harming She's kick ass, right?
(43:42):
She's kick ass.
Incredible and yet serene.
'cause she's Quaker and we'reall about peace.
And you know, serenity is, shewasn't getting agitated.
She was doing, yeah, she wascalm and she's like, have you
tried quilting?
Have you tried this as an answerto your problems?
I, I love it.
And, you know, score one for theintroverts out there because
(44:04):
she.
Is live in proof that it doesnot mean that you are, you know,
she was a timid child, but shecertainly was not a timid adult.
Mm-hmm.
She met problems that mostpeople would just go, oh no.
Yeah.
Uh, and she thought, okay, let'sthink about this.
What can we do?
(44:24):
And she must have had such a waywith people as well.
For sure.
With the prisoners, thenetworking she did on the
outside the trade route.
She must have been such acontrary to her as as a child,
such a people I think that's thething that gets forgotten
sometimes, that people who arequiet are listening.
(44:45):
They're not necessarilyspeaking, they're thinking,
thinking before they speak,which is a gift I don't have.
But you know, she had that.
To be able to persuade people tocome and stay in the prison.
I mean, oh my God.
audio2663295054 (45:03):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
I learned today at work that you can make a chat
bot.
So, you can use copilot to makea chat bot on specific guidance.
So we have this bucket or teamsite full of chalk block of
guidance, and people have beenmoaning that they can't find
anything.
Nobody's putting it in my eyesuntil today, until chatbot
(00:31):
little man, I guess he's a man,he's coming.
And um, I was like playing aboutwith it.
I was like, training him.
I'll tell you what this gonna.
That is amazing and it's gonnabe a game changer for parenting
because all the things that yourkids are like, where, how do I
do the laundry?
Ask.
Ask the chatbot.
I've told you, you ask thelittle, it's in there, body boy.
(00:54):
Oh my god.
Um, so that was nice.
That was.
'cause also the first two hoursof me trying to do that were
completely futile.
And I was like a bit grumpy andthen I went break.
Did you need a chat chatbot totell you how to use?
Well, no.
If anything he was confusing meeven more the, the, the, the AI
chat.
And then I went and brought thelaundry in and then I came down,
sat down, and then I found itturns out the chat bot would
(01:17):
only work in the teams app.
It wouldn't work in theSharePoint app.
And I was trying to do it fromthe SharePoint app.
Oh.
And they couldn't handle it.
But then when I came back aftermy break, I went in the teams
app and clicked co-pilot and itjust boom.
And I was on, you just neededthat.
Come on, come on.
Needed a reset.
Needed a two minute fresh airsunshine.
So yeah, that's been myafternoon.
(01:38):
And I've been looking forward toour chat'cause I've got a really
good story for you.
You've caught, you've caught meby surprise with who it is.
Have I?
'cause you, yeah.
You like hinted it might be onelady and then we took a
diversion and now it's somebodyelse.
So I'm like, oh, who did I hint?
Who's this?
Who did I hint?
You hinted.
Oh, I don't wanna do anyspoilers'cause you might still
be working on it.
Bass.
(02:00):
Oh, I didn't even look at thatone.
Isn't that funny?
I've got such long list of like,and I just cherry pick them
like, yeah, I didn't even lookat that one.
I think that's the way you justfollow your bliss and you end up
with these, I know what's goingon today and just feeling it.
Elizabeth Fry, which is veryexciting.
Um.
Would you like to get into it?
Yeah, let's go G.
(02:21):
Little intro.
Of course.
So in 1813, the stench ofNewgate prison was the smell of
Britain's darkest despair, ahuman pit where women and
children were locked in Riotous,filth awaiting transportation or
the gallows.
The hopelessness and despairseemed as though it would never
(02:41):
end until one day into this,hell stepped a Quaker instead of
recoiling and running to herwealthy mansion.
Elizabeth Fry didn't flinch.
Instead she introduced kindness.
And patchwork quilts to a worldthat only knew punishment and in
the process changed the futureof prisons, nursing and women's
(03:02):
rights forever.
This is the story of the Angelof Prisons, Elizabeth Fre.
Wow.
Incredible.
And I really would not haveexpected handicrafts to come
into it, so this is fascinating.
Andy kras said the linchpin ofthis story, so you you hold onto
that, onto craft.
I'm excited.
Yeah.
(03:23):
So, uh, loads of sources.
Loads of sources today, andparticularly quaker.org.
Quaker is gonna be a hugefeature of what we talk about.
Elizabeth fry.co.
Do UK uh, Quaker Tapestry.
There you go.
Getting in early with the, withthe tap, getting in early with
the craft.
Historic uk.
There's others that we'll put inthe show notes as well, so.
(03:44):
Let's set the scene a littlebit.
Uh, we're very English today.
We meet the daughter of awealthy Quaker banker.
So we are thinking wealthy, weare thinking prominent.
There's gonna be a few namedrops throughout this story,
which just shows you the levelof wealth we're talking about.
Um, the first name is Barkley,as in.
(04:06):
Barkley card as in the bank forglobal superpower.
Okay.
Yeah.
So her mother came from theBarkley family.
Ooh.
Yeah.
So high society, reallysuccessful.
We very high.
Yeah.
We could quite easily rest onour laurels and just play
croquet and yes, that's true.
(04:26):
And also quite happy childhood,I imagine.
'cause it's easier when you are.
Wealthy.
So her parents were the, were alove match, which is quite rare
I think, in some of our stories.
It was a very happy householdgrowing up.
But most importantly they were aQuaker family.
Do you know what Quaker means isI know that it is a religious,
(04:48):
persuasion, but.
Beyond, beyond what I've seen inFleabag and what little I know
from kind of Quaker societies inneighborhoods I've lived in, uh,
let's say.
No, I know basically nothing.
Um, well, you know enough, Ithink so.
A c it is basically a Christianoffset, so a Christian group.
Um, it was found in England inthe 1650s, and it's all about
(05:13):
direct personal experience ofGod for everyone and.
Because of that, it's veryindividualized.
So they often have lots ofsilent worship, and it's all
about serenity and peace.
It's very slow living, I wouldsay.
And they work on five values.
(05:34):
They have five pillars of theirreligion.
One is equality.
Peace, integrity, also known astruth, simplicity and community.
Oh, this sounds delightful.
I, right.
And then it gets better.
They don't use traditionalreligious structures or paid
ministers.
(05:56):
They have a sharedresponsibility throughout the
community because everyone has avaluable contribution to make.
Nice.
Maybe we are Quakers on theinside and we just didn't know,
oh yeah, if you could leave Godout of it, I'm in.
Like, um, and it's still veryprominent.
(06:17):
Their website was really,interesting about how they work
today.
They don't have like traditionalon this day, you do this or you
have to worship here.
It's very much just whateverfits for your community, like
that's how you gather.
So it all looks very.
Different today it's quitediverse in how they run.
But I think in the way it ran inEngland previously was a little
(06:39):
bit more structured.
The story today actually is in1780.
So, um, kind of the time we weretalking about Mary Anning kind
of that time.
Okay.
so Mary Anning was south.
We are going East, east Englandtoday in Norridge and Norridge
was.
Dominated in this in the 17hundreds by the textile
(07:01):
industry.
They were known for high qualityShaws and it also had a growing
bank sector.
It had like its mini metropolicy of banks because, it was
so far away from London.
So you could set up like anotherongoing kind of society there.
Both of those things are gonnacome up quite a lot.
We've already mentioned bankingand we'll mention crafts going
(07:23):
forward.
But what comes with bigfactories in olden I'm thinking
pollution and I'm thinking,yeah.
Child labor.
Um, absolutely lots of childrenin factories, um, and quite.
Scary to me.
(07:43):
Yeah.
I always dangerous, felt quitescared when we learned about it
as kids.
Yeah.
So that is just the flip side,,of the wealthy society that I've
pictured.
And then actually, you know, aswith life, when there's rich
people, there's poor people.
You might not just see them.
So Elizabeth was born inmagdalene Street in Norwich
where she lived until she wasfive and she had 10 siblings in
(08:05):
to Wow.
So lots of people.
Her father was a guy called JohnGurney.
He moved his family a few Marsout of Norwich into a very kind
of ty kind of place calledEarlham.
It was an estate and it wasactually, it didn't belong to
them, it was entailed to theBacon family, but.
And they had such a long lease,the gurneys on this estate that
(08:28):
loads of generations of familyhave lived there.
And because it was so big,basically we're thinking big,
almost.
Um.
Rolling rounds, you know,meandered around a river like
Downton Abbey type fight.
Very, very Downton Abbey.
Today it's actually part of thelaw school there, so East LERs
(08:48):
Law School.
So it's still there today.
But very, very picturesquethere.
Beautiful.
So Elizabeth's there having alovely time.
Her mother sadly dies when she's12.
And that is the.
Like the biggest mark onElizabeth's childhood.
It was a really big loss,obviously, and she didn't handle
it necessarily as well as theothers.
(09:10):
So she had night terror.
She used to creep into herparents' room, and check, her
mother was still breathing whenshe was poorly'cause she was so
scared of losing her.
So sad.
And yeah, it was a real, biganxiety driver for Elizabeth.
So when the mother died, hereldest as happens in history all
(09:31):
the time.
The eldest daughter then becomesmother basically.
So they kind of close ranks.
They pick up the pieces, theyjust try and, move on with their
life.
Elizabeth was already quiteshaky before her mother died
anyway.
And she was also described as adelicate child, quite a sickly
child anyway, so she also had,neuralgia so that confined her
(09:51):
to her bed.
So I think there was just a lotof anxiety around sickness in
general.
Her brothers were allowed to goto school.
The girls were, and they werehomeschooled, you'd think within
a big family she'd, you'd bequite ballsy, wouldn't you?
Like you kind of have to fightat the table.
Yeah.
To be heard, that kind of thing.
But actually that led Elizabetheven further into like a timid
(10:15):
nature.
Someone who struggled withanxiety, quite isolated.
She was just, you know, andthere's nothing wrong with this.
It's not, it is just one ofthose things, isn't it?
Some people are quieter andthat's okay.
So that kind of sums up herchildhood, you know, very
blissful, but a slight blemishhere or there.
Things get interesting when shemarries.
(10:37):
So normally it's when they die,but now she's married the man.
Um, she marries Joseph Fry in1800 and this is Joseph Fry from
the chocolate company.
Oh, okay.
I'm a fan of his work.
Yeah.
Um, so Fry's.
(10:58):
Is fries qua?
Do you have it?
It's English.
I don't think so.
I think it's very English.
Yeah.
It's now owned by Cadburys.
People might know Cadburys forsure, which are then owned by
somebody else.
But anyway, so she married achocolate man.
Wonderful.
And moved to London.
In London.
She meets up with her Quakerbuddies'cause obviously it's a
religion.
You can, it's a very easy way totap into a society.
(11:21):
And, she makes friends.
One of those friends is a guycalled Steven Relet.
It's him who actually, whentalking to Elizabeth one day,
encourages her to visit a localprison.
This on top of Quaker beliefs ofbelieving that all people are
equal, trying to, do good deedswith your life.
(11:42):
Some, you know, all integrity,truth, all those things we were
talking about earlier.
This kind of compels her tovisit.
She wants to go and see what'sgoing on and see if she can
help.
Right?
So this prompts her visit.
It's a Newgate prison.
This is the catalyst of thestory.
This is the moment that reallydefines her life trajectory,
where she's going, what sheachieves, what we've learned
(12:03):
about today, all within this onevisit.
So Newgate Prison is in London.
At the time, it is known forpublic execution.
So it's a prison and on theoutside they have executions.
I dunno.
People used to go and see thatit was fun.
Apparently some people like it.
(12:25):
Yeah.
I don't think we've actuallychanged that much as a species,
but Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it was Linda's mostnotorious jail.
It had been in operations sincethe 12th century, and it is
known as, um, the worst everprison to, as from then to
today.
Like you can see YouTubechannels that are calling it the
(12:46):
worst ever prism.
It was so bad that at one pointthey just didn't.
It's one of those things like, Iguess they do it with murderers
houses sometimes, like whereit's so dark they just knock it
down.
They just, it's better just toget rid.
And actually today it's wherethe old Bailey is.
Oh, okay.
Which is London Central CriminalCourt.
You'll often see it on BBC Newswhen there's a big case.
(13:07):
It's very fancy inside a veryfancy pants.
Um, and only a small section ofthe prism remains.
So it's mainly the old Bailey SoElizabeth goes, to this
notorious, horrible, scaryprism, and it's so bad that the
jailer actually says, mom, Idon't think you should go in
there.
Like, I think it's verydangerous.
(13:28):
And um, uh, I think he callsthem.
I haven't written it down, whichis strange.
Maybe I have later.
I think he calls them animals inthe thing.
So that's how he's describing itand he's really trying to warn
it as a off off.
But she insist, she says, I'vetold my friend Steven, I'm gonna
go and do this.
I'm gonna go and do this.
(13:49):
And in there what she observesis quite harrowing.
It's, women and children mixedup in the same.
Places of men, first of all,crowded, filthy, no beds, no
bedding,, lack of food, lack ofsanitation, um, just basics are
out the window.
(14:10):
And what I would say is if youhave listened to our Nelly Bly,
chat, that it's very similarabout,, we really go into a lot
of detail there about details atthe time because Nelly Bly wrote
those diaries.
So I'd go to that even thoughit's across the water, but it's
similar timeframe.
And what I really remember fromthat chat about Natalie Bly is
(14:30):
that the bread was moldy whenthey did get bread.
It was covered in mold and thatthey used to chuck water,
freezing cold water on them toclean them.
And, you know, so these arereally disgusting conditions.
What wasn't mentioned in thenearly by case was children.
And here we have the presence ofchildren, and people who are
(14:51):
awaiting trial living in theseconditions.
And, a lot of them were wait,awaiting deportation.
They were often drunk andviolent.
This is what Elizabeth was metwith and if you think about from
that down to Abbey RollingHills, that's where she's come
from and this is what she'sseeing.
One of the most harrowing linesthat I found about this was
(15:14):
actually from a historian,Rosalyn Crone, um, who is from
the Open Uni.
And, she did an article for theBBC on Elizabeth Fright and she
described, one of theexperiences that Elizabeth had
where she saw women takingclothes off a dead baby in order
to give them to a living one.
(15:35):
I know.
So it's dark.
We're in dark territory.
Sounds like there was no hair ora sense of like being
responsible for these people andtheir children at all.
Like it was just in you go sortyourselves out.
It was almost about hiding themfrom society, I guess.
(15:55):
Right, right.
That such a parallel to theNellie Bli thing, like what's
happening behind closed doors?
Nobody's aware.
'cause why would anyone everfind that out?
Yeah.
Oh God.
It is quite, it's, it is quitegut wrenching.
It's, um, quite.
I haven't even spoken about thesmell.
Can you imagine how it wouldsmell?
(16:16):
Oh my God, that place was insitu being run that way since
the 12 hundreds.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It doesn't bear thinking about,um, fry describes it as,, a
dreadful scene of misery, riot,idleness and vice of every
description.
So prim lady in society, youwould think that.
(16:41):
Um, Elizabeth would dust herdress off, put her bonnet on,
and walk out and carry on withher day.
Probably feeling very grateful.
I imagine probably feeling very,thankful, but then, oh, I don't.
That's not for me, but that'snot what happens at all.
If anything, she continues tovisit.
(17:01):
So this became the first ofmany, many visits that,
Elizabeth would make to NewgatePrim.
where Elizabeth comes from ispure empathy.
Just, just like you, Kara, justlike you were showing a few
minutes ago, but she wanted, tohelp and she, she was inspired
by these women in squalor tohelp push for better conditions.
(17:22):
So, just to kind of get a senseof what Elizabeth was feeling at
that time, and this is a quotefrom her journal, if you're
happy to read that for us.
This has been a time of deephumiliation to me.
This witnessing the effect ofthe consequences of sin, the
poor creature murdered her baby,and how inex expressively awful
(17:46):
now to have her life yeah.
That was the description of afemale prisoner who was waiting
execution.
So.
It just shows that these, it'sbleak, isn't it?
It is hella bleak.
That is the extreme margins.
Um, and I, you know, I'm sure weall have questions about how
(18:10):
robust courts and process ofproving guilt were.
Mm-hmm.
So you wonder how many peoplewere there?
That's so true.
Who should not have been, whowere innocent, right?
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think it also kind ofshines what reality was.
'cause I think we look back onthat time as a society and to me
(18:33):
anyway I do of charm and likeyou think Oliver Twist, you
think Sweeney Todd, you thinkall these things where we've
made it into an entertainingthing.
Um, but actually when you startto think about this woman sat
there.
Um.
She killed her baby'cause sheknew she was gonna die.
Like what do you pull from that?
Like those positive, you know?
(18:55):
So this is what Fry is presentedwith, but she goes on a mission
and Professor Rosalyn Crow, sheexplains three ways that.
Elizabeth goes about this.
First off, she gets womenprisoners looked after by women
officers.
Really plain, really simple.
(19:15):
She gets them supervised by asuperintendent or a matri, and
she makes sure that the womenare safe.
They do not have access to menunless they are chaperoned by a
female.
And this is, how ladies shouldbe and be pretreated and things
like that.
That's kind of where she'scoming from.
So that's the first fundamentalthing she charges for.
The second is that, theseprisoners don't have anything to
(19:38):
do.
They're just sat there in theirthoughts, in their despair and
what's the answer to thatCrafts.
He's like, I know what's gonnafix this.
Sewing, knitting, quilting.
She uses her contacts from thetextile world, from her big
business contacts to bringproducts in so that they can
(20:01):
knit and sew and thing.
But actually in the end, whatthe women, when she taught the
women how to make these things,they were so good that they were
sellable.
So then she had a network ofpeople on the outside of the
prison that you could sellproducts to and give the
earnings back to the women.
So that they could, I dunno,afford a solicitor, afford
something to, in order to, um,get them out of that hellhole.
(20:27):
So she occupies their timethrough crafting and then she
also occupies their time throughreading, writing, schooling,
arithmetic, all that kind ofstuff.
Just basic life skills.
Right.
And then the final thing thatshe wanted to do with them was,
which is probably the hardestone, is convince them of
religion.
So convince them that if theyopened up to the God, if they
repented for their sins, theywould turn their lives around
(20:50):
and help create a better societyoutside of Prism.
So she had a three-prong attack,very strategic.
She knew what she was doing, andshe knew better than to ask for
permission.
She was, she just.
Did it.
She didn't want to ask theauthorities, she didn't wanna
ask the City of London.
She kind of just was likesneaking woolen, like, and see,
(21:14):
and just visiting, I guess herview, like it had been neglected
and ignored to the detriment ofit, and everybody who was
involved with it.
So, you know, they had theirchance.
So why should she?
Um, so she kind of does this insecret, you know, she kind of
gets this going under the radar.
(21:36):
She brings, a band of ladies,quote unquote together called
the Ladies New Gate Associationbecause she has., On the outside
a network of Quaker people whoare living by her values.
So very easy to convince thatthis is the right way to go.
Because, you've got thataffiliation.
And then she actually startedbringing people into mental
specific women prisoners.
(21:57):
So to really build thoserelationships, which is just so,
oh my God, admirable.
It's amazing.
Then once it's going well, whenshe's like, actually this is a
success and things have gotcalmer.
The, um, and she had, I guess,evidence, didn't she, that the
behavior has changed that, thesepeople, aren't.
(22:18):
Causing a raw'cause.
They're not dangerous.
You know, they're sat hereknitting for heaven's sake.
It's gonna be, it's a differentvibe, isn't it?
So when she had that firstdiscussion with the warden right
at the start, um, so in April,1817, which I think is four
years, Yeah, four years aftershe first visited, that's when
(22:39):
she takes it to the authorities.
That's when she's like, okay,this is enough now.
That's a long, and it just showsyou how secret it was, doesn't
it?
Like very under the rates areslowly, slowly catchy, monkey.
People in the authoritiestraditionally may I imagine were
absolutely flabbergasted thechange of the women.
They were known to be quiet,obedient.
Sober because they had otherpurposes in life, right?
(23:02):
So this is just a quote aboutElizabeth reflecting on her time
at Newgate and how, what shemanaged to do.
To my surprise, we have beenenabled to demonstrate how much
may be done amongst theseunhappy outcasts, merely by
kindness, accompanied byinstruction and employment.
(23:22):
Quite right.
I love not only that she had theright instincts about how to
help.
But that she had cunning, thenouse to sit on it until she had
amounted enough evidence toirrefutably say, this has
worked.
It is working.
(23:43):
Let's go.
Let's do this everywhere.
It's killer.
Right?
It is really cool.
Yeah.
And off the back of that, shejust kept building it.
So in 1821, she formed theBritish Society of Ladies for
promoting, the Reformation ofFemale Prisoners, which is quite
a mouthful.
We could probably give her somemarketing tips, but that's fine.
Yeah.
Could be stuck here.
(24:03):
But she was like, Hey, this isNewgate.
Newgate is the worst, but it'snot the only one.
Right.
There's gonna be so many moreprisons out there.
Like you said, let's go.
And she had a system in place.
She was ready in 1823.
The Girls Act was introducedinto Parliament and it actually
used some of her ideas.
So that made it law to haveseparate areas for men and
(24:26):
prison and women guards forwomen prisoners.
And it's stuff like this, youcould just take for granted
nowadays, don't you?
But actually there had to be atime where someone was like,
yeah, we should really writethis down.
Yeah, like it seems like commonsense, but.
Yeah.
And it just kept escalating andescalating.
So she traveled widelythroughout the country meeting,
(24:47):
different heads of authoritiesand things like that., And she
even met with Queen Victoria.
And not only just met QueenVictoria, she was a big thing
bearing of mind.
Queen Victoria was the head ofthe British Empire back then.
She was a very, very, veryimportant lady.
She'd convinced Queen Victoriato give her money to help with
the campaign.
And if you think of like.
(25:07):
Off with her head royalty kindof reputation of monarchs back
then to be giving money topeople in squalor and to people
who are the outcast, the badeggs of society.
Elizabeth must have done somepretty sweet talking, right?
Yeah.
The way she must have beenpersuasive.
(25:28):
So we don't just stop there.
We meet Queen Victoria, but wealso meet other heads of state.
So we are going wide with ourprison reform.
She actually writes a book whichis UK based, so Scotland and
North of England.
But, she does do this acrossseas as well.
In her book she writes that, sheoften stayed, the night in and
(25:51):
not only her, but she wouldinvite noble people to come and
stay and see for themselves thecondition of the prisons.
So she's like, you have no idea.
Come and have a look and see foryourself, and then you'll get
one talking about, I dunno howshe deserve.
I can't even get people to writea report, so I dunno how she
managed to get people to staythe night in prison.
But, you know, she, she reallydid influence and, you know,
(26:17):
come and see for yourselves.
It's this kindness that helpedher gain the friendship of the
prisoners themselves when they,especially when they see the
improvements Um, and it sohappened that one of her many
brother-in-laws, remember she'sgot 10 siblings Yeah.
Happened to be an mp.
So he was selected.
(26:37):
I mean, statistically it wasgonna happen.
That that's just so many people,like so many people in high
society.
Yeah, it makes sense, doesn'tit?
So this is Thomas Foel Booktonand he becomes basically her
beeline to Westminster.
He's, he, she's got his ear.
We know how persuasive she is.
She gets these people to spendthe night in prison, like it's
(26:57):
fun.
And, it begins promoting herwork in and around his network
of mps Like I said, we do gooverseas.
So she does go to Ireland in1827 and visits a women there.
She encouraged the people ofBelfast, the women of Belfast,
to organize their own committee.
(27:19):
'cause she's like, look, this iswhat we did.
If you set up a committee or anassociation, you can really get
stuff done.
And she managed to help not justprisons, but also poor houses.
Just to cheek a reminded thatshe is married and she comes
from a big family and shecontinues to have a big family
and she has 11 children duringthis time that time.
(27:42):
who wants that?
11.
Um, too many.
But then she probably.
Didn't like hands-on parent themin the way that you or I would
be thinking.
Yes, that's true.
She probably like went there.
You go off, you go to nurse.
A nanny each.
A nanny.
Yeah.
If we've got Barkley money, it'sa nanny Perchard, isn't it?
Yeah.
So, um, but this is a reallyinteresting detail I found was
(28:04):
the, actually her husband wentbankrupt himself.
In 1828.
Yeah.
Um, so they couldn't afford tolive in fancy London anymore.
They moved to West Ham up.
Tim Lane not offending.
We're not offending anyone.
I'm just saying people in WestHam are like, what the hell man?
Like I paid a lot to live hereat the time.
(28:27):
It was the outer margin.
It's all contextual team.
Her brother then becomes thebusiness manager for her
husband.
Because of that, and he couldcontrol the bankruptcy, that
meant that she could continue todo her work.
She wasn't like employment oranything, heaven forbid.
But it also means that I thinkit was a really interesting
detail because it reaffirms thatyou can fall at any time.
(28:50):
Like you are no different fromthese people in this prison.
You know, if you were born indifferent circumstances or if
you had different circumstancesput upon you, you could quite
easily be in that situation.
And it just highlights again,the need for That's a really
good point.
So it's a sort of a, just a lifelesson in humility.
If you can go broke trying tosell chocolate.
(29:11):
Nobody's safe.
Like everyone wants that.
Everyone wants chocolate.
It's a need.
So I've kind of whizzed througha big timeline there.
We're now in like 1820s, but Ijust wanna, I just wanna take a
little meander back, just alittle loopy, loopy loop back.
To 18.
18 because this was a big time,in Fry's life.
Like I said, she'd got her newgate system of Pum and she was
(29:34):
actually invited to giveevidence.
This is not just an opinion,this is hard fact evidence to
the House of Commons in theBritish Parliament.
And doing that, she became thefirst woman ever to present
evidence in the house as Sothat's quite a court to
accolade, isn't it?
Yeah.
And actually the word evidencereally stuck out to me.
(29:56):
'cause that means they're gonnabelieve what she says.
'cause it's evidence.
It's fact, isn't it?
She's an expert.
She's coming in.
Yeah.
Authority.
Astute of them to recognize herskill and, yeah.
Knowledge.
Yeah.
Not just, I thought it wasbrilliant.
Yeah.
Um, so, but 18, 18 is alsoanother very key year in
Elizabeth's life because it'sthe year where the government
(30:19):
decide to send women convicts toAustralia.
This is a dark part.
Um, I dunno if you ever saw theseries Banished on BB, C.
It's a, it was like a six partdrama and it had that guy Russ
Tovi, I think the guy Oh, I likehim.
Yeah, he's in everything.
(30:40):
He's just brilliant.
He's just been, he's ineverything part of everyone's
life.
For so long anyway.
He was in it.
I loved it.
It was about 10 years ago now,but I thought it was brilliant.
I'd recommend digging it out onthe iPlayer.
It got canceled quickly, Ithink,'cause it was very
expensive to run.
But it, it follows the, whathappened when the ships landed
on the beaches and Australia andwhat happened then.
(31:01):
Oh, see.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
As you can imagine taking thefacts of what we've learned
about Newgate and the prisons,you can probably imagine what
the conditions were like, inAustralia and on the way to
Australia.
So we've got a couple of quoteshere.
They're quite meaty.
transportation was traumatic.
(31:24):
The women and children wereherded into flat carts,
manacled, and wearing leg irons.
They were then pulled throughthe streets to the jeers of the
townspeople, pelted with rottenfruit and vegetables and sods of
soil arriving at the ship,terrified and filthy.
They remained in the ship's holdfor the entire 17 week voyage,
(31:45):
17 weeks.
We're on this damn ship.
Isn't that insane?
Comfort of a sea of a ship atthat time in history was
diabolical even for people whopaid a fortune for luxury.
Yes.
That's so true.
I to not see the sun or thehorizon, and presumably most of
(32:08):
these people will never havebeen in a boat in their lives.
That is.
Beyond human endurance.
That is, it's disgusting,absolutely disgust.
And for children to be treatedthat way, they've done nothing
No one should face that.
Oh, I feel very strongly aboutboats, as you know.
Yeah.
This is, as I do, this is reallyquite upsetting.
(32:29):
Oh, um, I'm sorry.
It's not the end of the boat.
Oh.
So, um, but don't you worry, soif Elizabeth.
Reformed Newgate prison underthe radar Very quickly, what do
you think she does with theboats?
Oh, on Elizabeth, come on.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, Her staple, iscrafts.
They make a reappearance.
Don't you worry.
(32:50):
We're gonna craft our way out ofthis.
Okay.
So, Elizabeth arranged thatwomen would be transported in,
closed carriages un.
Manacled, at night and allowedfood outta the hole once the
ship had sailed a mile becauseby the time it had been a mile,
they could, it was too far tospin back, right?
If they jumped, they jumpedright.
(33:12):
The boredom of the 17 weekvoyage would often lead to
fighting and gambling.
So Elizabeth was like, I knowhow to combat this, fighting and
gamble in.
I've got some crafting that youcan be doing while you are on
there.
So here's an explanation of whatElizabeth's solution Each woman
(33:33):
was to have a bag of usefulthings containing clothing, a
comb and brush, soap and towels,a bible, spectacles, a plate,
cutlery, material, wadding.
Needles, a thimble and threadseverything needed to make a
patchwork quilt.
During those long days at sea,over 12,000 prisoners received a
(33:58):
bag and Elizabeth Fry visitedeach of their 106 ships.
Yeah, she went on every ship andgave out her the cutest thing.
Oh my It's amazing that likebread and roses thing of we
don't just need to feed and keepthese people physically safe,
(34:18):
which obviously we do, but thatis, that is necessary, but not
sufficient.
We also need to recognize theirthinking, feeling human beings
just like we are, they needsomething to do and.
What, a babe.
I love her.
The detail that really got mewas spectacles.
Like, to me that was just soholistic.
(34:39):
And so it was like, well, yeah,they're gonna be, they're gonna
need to see what they're doing.
And it was just like, um, darkin a ship's hold.
I mean, yeah.
Yeah.
And I bet they probably neverhad had spectacles You know what
I mean?
With a life changing for peopleactually.
Yeah.
And we're not just quilting forthe fun of it.
Cara like quilting is fun, butit's, it's gonna help these
(34:59):
people even more because whenthe ships were dock prospective
employers would meet the shipsfor free labor.
And obviously it's better to bein the labor world than it is to
be homeless.
And a well-made quilt would showthat the convicts were
industrious, clean, and willingto work quietly at a given task.
(35:20):
So that's their cv.
Oh, like behold, yeah, here's mycv, I can do this.
Um, so she didn't just give thema fun project to do.
She gave them self-respect.
She gave them hope, she gavethem a longevity.
And, um, this starting of thiswork was actually what would
(35:41):
lead to the, a pollination oftransportation.
In 1837.
So not only was she was like,this is terrible, I'm gonna fix
it.
She's gonna root cause this aswell.
And actually the ships did stopsailing to America in there's a
quote from Rosalyn Crow there,if you I just think it's
(36:03):
remarkable because you see itjust spreading through society.
It then becomes a thing inhospitals too, that women should
be taken care of by women, orthat there should be some kind
of female chaperone present.
It's something we take forgranted now when we go to the
she added, True.
Which is true, isn't it?
And it's a beautiful segueanother, door of the vestibule
(36:29):
of what Fry got up to because in1840 she opened a training
school for nurses in guys So shewas so strong on women.
And those pillars again, ofQuakers, we keep going back to
that, of serving your communityintegrity and peace, and that's
(36:55):
what she wanted to spread.
So she started the Institutionof Nursing Sisters a.
And it was actually this programthat inspired Florence
Nightingale to be one of Fry'snurses, to assist people in the
crime main war.
Now the crime war comes up a lotin this pod.
You Yes, because it's not onlyFlorence Nightingale that was
(37:18):
inspired by Elizabeth Fry,Florence Nightingale meets Betsy
Cara in one of our episodes.
Um, who.
Has her own journey and her ownmiraculous things going on, and
it just shows how many womenwere changing history at this
time in their own ways.
(37:39):
Right?
It's very exciting.
And basically she was justdeveloping saints after saints
after saying she just made thislike conveyor belt of them.
And this was on top of herprison reform, her humanitarian
efforts, like we explained withthe ships.
And, she sought to tackle avariety of social issues on top
of this, she.
(38:00):
Also improve the life of thehomeless by setting up shelters
in London, opening up soupkitchens.
This particular endeavor wasinspired when she saw the dead
body of a young child who didn'tsurvive winter that year.
And she was like, okay, I can dosomething about this.
You'll notice there's a trendthroughout her or her.
(38:21):
Endeavors that they'respecifically to help women and
children, but particularly thosewho are having a hard time with
it.
Just like she was at risk ofwhen bankrupt.
Elizabeth's desires for betteroverall conditions in different
institutions also included theproposed reform of mental
(38:43):
asylums.
Again, this harks back to NellyBly and what she did with mental
assignments.
So it is very much just seeing afire, tackling it, seeing a
fire, tackling it.
And because of that, she becomesso widespread, both
geographically, but in alsotypes of, challenges that people
are facing and.
(39:03):
Alongside her fellow Quakers,she does eventually start
campaigning for the, abolitionof slavery.
She does a lot, such a naturalfit, isn't it?
Yeah.
That you, you see the, the waythat people are having to live
and you think No, and it justopens your eyes, I suppose, to
more and more.
(39:24):
What's wrong and why not?
Especially if you're gettingsuccesses especially if you're
seeing the real, powerful workof quilting.
Like, why wouldn't you, whywouldn't you wanna show it to
somebody else, or, you know,help in a.
Helps a different marginalizedsociety.
It's wonderful.
And it is, and I don't think shecould have got a far, if she
(39:45):
could, without the Quakercommunity, because she had that
network set up ready to go,didn't she?
She just tapped into it, boththe Quaker community and I guess
her, industry to contacts..
Let's leverage that.
And that is very smart,Elizabeth passed away in 1845.
More than a thousand peopleattended her memorial.
(40:06):
It's insane, isn't it?
And there's lots of, legacythings.
To, note about her, probably themost easy reference is that she
was on the British five poundnote for, I can't remember how
long.
It was for about 15 years,something like that.
I found an interesting blogabout it that actually that
(40:26):
wouldn't have sat well with herbecause it's everywhere and
because of her, Quaker, Values,I guess.
But also if we hop back to thatanxious child who was isolated
and quiet and timid and scaredshe probably didn't want that
you, she, it doesn't really fitwith that personality of that
(40:47):
child we started with.
Does it?
I can see that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought that was a reallyinteresting note in the blog
anyway.
Yeah.
your point.
Yeah.
If I was her as an introvert.
Now dead and able somehow tocomment on it.
I would like to think that Iwould be pleased to example that
(41:12):
can have hope and challengethings that are really truly
unacceptable and terrible andmake a difference because.
Her image being on that notemight have inspired somebody to
go find out about her and thatmight have inspired them to
think, ah, okay, stuff canchange.
So hopefully her, like overallmm-hmm.
(41:36):
Opinion of it would be positive.
'cause I think it's, yeah, itis.
Great.
Come on Elizabeth, take the win.
That was beautiful.
I really hope so um, she alsohas a statue at the now old
Bailey.
Um, it is phenomenal.
The statue.
It is marble.
It is massive.
It's in the most beautiful hallthat they've got.
(41:56):
It's very green GOs in HarryPotter.
It's stunning.
And obviously that is the siteof the new tourist, prison new
gate where she began all hertireless work to, improve
things.
And also I think Queen,Victoria's like round the
corner, wow.
Yeah.
Um, there's lots of blue plaquesand different things around the
(42:16):
country, both, in Norwich and,um, in London.
There is the Elizabeth FryRefuge, which it was established
to provide shelter for destitutewomen.
Particularly those were releasedfrom Prism.
There's lots of institutions andbuildings named after her and
quite right because she was anabsolutely incredible woman.
(42:38):
Her legacy, like literally justas you said, that is like a
beacon of hope All theselegacies are very much a
testament to all the power, thecompassion, the determination,
and she saw that the absoluteawful conditions for women in
places like that prism.
And she didn't walk away.
(42:59):
She chose to stay.
She chose to fight it.
She chose to fix things, and shebelieved in her values so
strongly that it just rippledthroughout her life.
And she showed that people canbe treated with dignity and not
punishment, and that actuallythe rehabilitation does work and
(43:21):
her work shouts that when youapproach the world's toughest
problems with kindness andpracticality, you can spark
monumental, lasting change, andyeah, what a powerful legacy
that is.
Oh, thank you so much forbringing that.
What an Person what?
Harming She's kick ass, right?
(43:42):
She's kick ass.
Incredible and yet serene.
'cause she's Quaker and we'reall about peace.
And you know, serenity is, shewasn't getting agitated.
She was doing, yeah, she wascalm and she's like, have you
tried quilting?
Have you tried this as an answerto your problems?
I, I love it.
And, you know, score one for theintroverts out there because
(44:04):
she.
Is live in proof that it doesnot mean that you are, you know,
she was a timid child, but shecertainly was not a timid adult.
Mm-hmm.
She met problems that mostpeople would just go, oh no.
Yeah.
Uh, and she thought, okay, let'sthink about this.
What can we do?
(44:24):
And she must have had such a waywith people as well.
For sure.
With the prisoners, thenetworking she did on the
outside the trade route.
She must have been such acontrary to her as as a child,
such a people I think that's thething that gets forgotten
sometimes, that people who arequiet are listening.
(44:45):
They're not necessarilyspeaking, they're thinking,
thinking before they speak,which is a gift I don't have.
But you know, she had that.
To be able to persuade people tocome and stay in the prison.
I mean, oh my God.
audio2663295054 (45:03):
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