November 25, 2025 • 37 mins
The Curious Case of Mary Magdalene: From Sinner to Saint
Sources:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=saved&v=1285143176741563 Luisa Omielan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/marymagdalene.shtml
https://broadview.org/mary-magdalene-easter-story/
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/who-was-mary-magdalene-119565482/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene
https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/id/eprint/192913/1/Final%20Submitted%20Mary%20Magdalene%20-%20Warren.pdf
This video explores the life and legacy of Mary Magdalene, a significant yet often misunderstood figure in Christian history. Originating from biblical texts, Mary Magdalene was a wealthy, loyal disciple who witnessed Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. The script delves into how her reputation was tarnished over centuries, notably by Pope Gregory I, who labeled her a sinful prostitute. The narrative also uncovers Mary Magdalene's leadership role and significant influence through the rediscovery of the Gospel of Mary in 1896. The discussion highlights the enduring impact of patriarchal narratives and the importance of revisiting historical figures to uncover their true contributions.
00:00 Thanksgiving and Grand Prix Dilemma
01:13 A Coffee Shop Story
02:36 Introducing Mary Magdalene
03:48 Mary Magdalene's Role in Christianity
08:06 Pope Gregory's Influence
15:28 Mary Magdalene in Art and Culture
17:24 The Many Marys in the Bible
17:56 Confusion and Misidentification
19:29 Cultural Impact and Misconceptions
19:51 Modern Reassessment of Mary Magdalene
23:22 The Gospel of Mary: A Hidden Text
25:07 Mary's Leadership and Influence
26:10 Controversy and Jealousy Among Disciples
31:54 Mary Magdalene's Legacy and Modern Interpretations
37:22 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
audio1837662765 (00:08):
I think it was Grand Prix.
I saw it was Grand Prix, but we,yeah, my God.
Because of Thanksgivingpreparations.
I didn't remember that.
It was Grand Prix.
And keeping track of that is ajob I have elected to take
responsibility for.
Okay.
So my sister-in-law yesterdaywent, so did you guys get up at
four and watch the Qua andyou're like, no, I completely
(00:29):
forgot.
And then this No, I wasdistracted by Turkey.
Yeah.
Distracted by Turkey and pumpkinpie.
And then.
The today was the actual race.
And so our Thanksgiving dinner,so to speak, was yesterday and
last night we were all sittingaround playing cards and we
started playing at like nine.
And the question was, do we thenget up at four in the morning?
(00:50):
Mm-hmm.
Or three 30 in the morning towatch the race at four.
And by midnight we still hadn'tfinished the card game.
And by 1:00 AM we were like, no,we are not getting up in three
hours.
So it was getting closer.
It was terrible.
We ended up watching the recap.
It was.
Brilliant.
That's okay.
That's fine.
I'm still in it.
Everything you, that's why tohave to recap.
Yeah, exactly.
(01:10):
That's what it's for.
Percent.
What have you been up to whilewe've been having Turkey and
pumpkin pie and playing cards?
Nothing is exciting.
Oh, I went to a coffee shopyesterday.
That was it.
I went to a coffee shop.
Come on.
New coffee shop, I did go to acoffee shop and I did write as a
story.
Would you like to hear it?
I certainly would.
(01:31):
We are going into new territory.
Cara, we are venturing religion.
We have never done a religiousUm.
No.
And, I first heard about thisstory from a comedian of a
fabulous lady called, LouisaOlin.
Um, have you heard of her?
(01:53):
Mm-hmm.
Now I think you'd really likeher.
She's, I don't understand whyshe's not on the mainstream.
I don't understand why she'snot.
Have I got news for you?
Um.
What's that lie one, would I lieto you?
She should be on all those showsall the time.
I don't understand how shehasn't cracked'cause she's been
on my radar for year, like about10 years.
But yeah, I don't understand.
(02:15):
Maybe she's opting out of that.
Maybe it's choice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
But she's fabulous and she gotme through lockdown.
A lot of things.
So I found this story from herand I was like, well, I've not
heard of this lady.
Jamie had heard of this lady.
So you may have as well, um, Ijust hadn't for whatever reason.
(02:36):
So this is, the story of MaryMagdalene in the Bible.
She was a wealthy, loyaldisciple, the chosen witness to
the resurrection.
She was the messenger to themessengers, a saint.
But for thousands of years, theworld knew her as the weeping
anonymous sinner.
A scandalous prostitute erasedfrom power.
(02:57):
So how did one woman's storysplinter?
So, and why did a single sermonchange her reputation without
rebuttal?
This is the curious case of MaryMagdalene.
The woman who gave birth to areligion yet is still fighting
for her place in the worldtoday.
So it's curious.
It's curiouser and curiouser.
(03:19):
Obviously I've referenced LouiseOlin.
She does an amazing, hilarioussketch about this.
I loved it.
I've relied very heavily on aBBC article on Christianity,
specifically Mary Magdalene.
broadview.org.
Smithsonian Magazine had anarticle.
I kind of struggled with it if Iwas honest, but I've used a
couple of bits in there atWikipedia just to check up on
(03:40):
some bits and a white R academicpaper.
So.
Who is Mary Magdalene and whatdoes she do?
So to understand Mary, we kindof have to ignore what we think
about her.
So a little bit like Catherinethe great, you know, when we've
got this idea in our head, we'rekind of just gonna have to rip
that apart a little bit.
(04:01):
We can look at what actually waswritten in the Bible because the
Bible still exists.
It's just great news.
So.
Name is Mary of Magdala, whichsuggests her hometown was
Magdala, which is a village, onthe shore of the Sea of Galilee,
which is modern day Palestine.
So we're kind of around thatarea.
(04:23):
Some scholars suggest, Magdalameans tower in Aramic, which
makes her kind of the watchtower.
So Mary the Watchtower, whichmakes sense because, her and
Jesus very close, very close,and she was kind of watching out
(04:44):
for him.
So that's kind of where thatkind of theory comes from,
regardless of kind of what hername means.
The thing we need to know isthat she was a disciple.
And she was one of the leadingdisciples, among Jesus's
followers.
And, she was very much, it's nota question of whether she was
there or not, she was definitelythere because she's mentioned so
(05:06):
many times throughout all thegospels.
So she's mentioned in fourgospels, which is a record.
Not many people are in all fourgospels I know in total she was
mentioned 12 times.
So this is a lot.
So it is just kind of acharacter to take notice of,
right?
Yeah.
Important note, is that she wasrich.
She was a woman of some means,whatever that meant 2000 years
(05:27):
ago.
In the Gospel of Luke, it tellsus that Mary and other women,
including Joanna and Susanna,which I didn't, I did know they
were religious names, but I findit fascinating that Susanna is a
religious name.
I find it hilarious.
Anyway, so they.
Accompanied Jesus and the textsexplicitly states that they
provided for themselves, okay?
(05:47):
They weren't relying onhandouts.
They followed Jesus and theyfunded their own trips.
Never thought before about thefact that the disciples kind of
following him around.
On the preaching trail wouldneed just admin, like somebody's
gotta pay for the, the stable orthe room or the food.
Yeah, like, yeah.
(06:09):
So these are women obviously whoare capable of just not working,
going out on the road and.
You know, fan 10 girling, um,Jesus for, and Jesus and his
mission basically, they wereseen as radicals of their time
because they were travelingindependently, without a dad or
a chaperone.
You know, they were kind ofdoing their own thing.
(06:29):
I., They're described by LouisaOlin in her sketch as like Kim
Kardashians of the day.
So like, they were prim, theywere ready, they had money, they
were just gonna go and this iswhat they wanted to do and they
were gonna go make it happenregardless of what.
So that's the kind of vibe we'vegot about Mary.
We dunno much about her history,basically, Most famous thing we
(06:51):
know about Mary is that she isreferenced as, Mary from whom
seven Demons had got out.
Okay.
Wow.
So that is so important.
Demons quite a strong word.
Yeah.
Quite strong word.
What do we, what do we meanhere?
What we don't know?
(07:12):
What do you think?
That's the, that's the, this isthe whole point of this story is
that we dunno what demons areand this just shows that some of
these texts can't be trusted.
Right.
That's, we not always a hundredpercent sure what they mean.
Yeah.
Like you're not seeing that onan NHS, um, medical history or,
you know what I mean?
Like, it's not, it's notquantifiable with science, but
(07:35):
it, it obviously meant somethingwhen they wrote it and people
would've gone, oh yeah.
Seven demons.
Oh, you know, it could be likea, um.
Uh, a, a physical disability,um, some disabling factor in
some way.
The problem we've got is,nobody's a hundred percent sure,
(07:55):
but people assume what thatmeans.
That's the problem we've got.
And in classic fashion, it is a.
Man who makes this assumption.
Oh, okay.
And let me introduce you to PopeGregory the first.
Okay.
He is offered called Gregory theGreat.
Um, oh, he sounds amazing.
I mean, that's, that's a so farstrong name.
(08:17):
Strong name.
What?
What's he got to back it up?
What's he bringing?
Um, he was around in the latefive hundreds to six hundreds.
He's kind of over that centurycrossover.
He, was a very popular pope and,he was pope at a time where
obviously the Pope has a lot ofpower now, but it was, it was
(08:39):
strongly like at the height ofthat time, he.
Bob along, to a sermon one dayand preaches to his people, as
he preaches to, and he says thefollowing words, whom Luke
calls, the sinful woman whomJohn calls Mary, we believe to
(09:03):
be the Mary from whom sevendemons were ejected according to
Mark.
Okay, so that language isn'tlanguage that we would use today
because it's years ago, but thekey word that I want you to pick
out there is sinful.
She whom Lukes calls the sinfulwoman.
Alright.
We have no indication that thiswoman is sinful.
There is nothing in thatoriginal quote that indicates
(09:24):
sin, but what Greg?
Greg has done is make that leap.
He's made the leap from diman tosinful and sinful at a time.
Kind of means moral failure.
It means bad.
Yeah.
It means you are weak.
Okay.
And it is very short leap fromsinful to prostitute.
Okay.
(09:46):
Which is very on brandand forChristianity at that time.
Okay.
So what Oh, Greg has done, hastaken some words, twisted them,
popped them out, and used themfor his own agenda.
Okay.
Which makes sense.
That is what the patriarchydoes.
Sexuality in Christianity isoften brandished as a kind of
(10:06):
negative thing.
Mm.
Louisa on Milan, references thisvery briefly at the end of her
Mary Magdalene sketch, and Ijust wanna bring her
interpretation into it becauseit's very different so he could
read that Sex has beenweaponized to use for shame to
belittle and control when it'sthe most natural thing in the
(10:29):
world.
Which is very different.
It's a very differentinterpretation of sexy times
compared to Greg.
And, she goes on to do thisreally hilarious bit about the
clitoris, which I will not tryand do here because it's, it's
just too funny.
You'll have to go and watch asketch, we'll pop it in, our
show notes.
So not only is Greg made thishuge assumption, he's.
(10:49):
Taking the word demon, added sinfor giving it connotations to
prostitution.
He did this speech on GoodFriday.
So this is one of his biggestspeeches of the year.
He is the sole proprietor of theaudience.
They are only listening to him.
He is the pope.
It's his good Friday.
(11:09):
This is a big deal.
Okay.
So he spreads those lies and hespreads them wide throughout.
But there is nothing in theoriginal text to support.
Pope Gregory, the first theoryscholar state, like I said,
generally agree that sevendemons could be, an ailment,
like a physical maybe, apsychiatric illness, maybe
(11:30):
something like seizures, forexample.
So to understand the true impactof what Grego did, we kind of
need to understand the big partof Mary's story.
So we've kind of jumped a bit.
We've kind of gone from this iswho Mary is, this is what
happened to her 500 years later.
But to bring it back so.
In the scenes in the Bible, it'sreally interesting'cause one
(11:53):
women are always in the scenesof the Bible.
Really fascinating.
They were at these biggestmoments, if you like, in
religion.
They were there just like womenwere at war, just like women
were.
Yeah.
In royalty.
It's like they've always beenthere in all parts of life.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
All been there.
So that was interesting, firstof all, but her biggest
strength, Mary.
(12:14):
To have throughout her story isloyalty.
Okay.
When Jesus faced mortal danger,the men in his company, his
disciples, they did abandon butMary and was one of the women
who stayed with him.
He all the way up to the pointof crucifixion, right?
She was there.
She witnessed his death and shewas present at his burial.
(12:34):
We know this, it's in the text.
Her courage and, fidelity isvery different to how those men
reacted in that same situation.
Okay.
So that's just, you know, it'sinteresting that that is her
character through.
And then came the moment thatactually cements her role.
She was present at the tomb.
(12:56):
Often with other women in thatscene.
And the big scene is describedin the Gospel of John, which
this quote is from a, the BBCarticle, but it takes quotes
from the Gospel of John readthat.
Mary is Alone when someone asksher why she's crying.
(13:18):
She believes it's the gardenerand says they have taken my
Lord's body and I do not knowwhere it is.
The figure says her name andthen she sees Jesus.
She's overwhelmed and saysmaster, and goes forward to
reach out to him, but he stopsher.
He says, don't touch me.
Instead, she must go to theothers and tell them that he has
risen from the dead.
(13:39):
It's an awesome moment.
Jesus stands before her, yethe's beyond her reach.
She witnesses his redemption.
Okay.
She is the one who.
Was there at the time and thenis tasked with, go and spread
that word.
Okay.
She's tasked to be themessenger.
This is quite a big deal inChristianity.
(14:01):
This is like the underpinningmoment of Christianity.
This is the pivotal moment ofwhat them is given to a
religion.
And that all happened, thatmoment happens because she she's
there, she witnessed she shewent back to see him.
Not everyone was doing that.
She took the message and thenshe spread it.
Okay.
So she's absolutely the centralcharacter to redemption and
(14:24):
basically the birth ofChristianity it today.
She became what the early churchlater called, um, a spot to the
Apostles.
How are we saying that?
Apostles to the Apostle apostlesto the apostles.
I was raised Catholic, so thisis all very much my.
Million.
Brilliant.
Yeah.
(14:44):
So she's known as the messengerto the messengers.
Right?
That is a pretty big deal.
the Orthodox Church recognizedher equal to the Apostles.
This is the, she basically,she's the founding father of
Christianity.
That's what I'm trying to getat.
These are big swings that istaken to this female character.
(15:05):
Right.
Then.
She's branded as a sinner lateron.
Okay.
It's curious.
It gets curiouser and curiouser.
Okay.
So why does she have thesedifferent interpretations?
Okay.
Yeah.
Why in the text is she oneperson?
Yeah.
Her reputation is completelydifferent in popular culture.
(15:28):
Another example of how herreputation is tarnished through
society and culture is thenumerous paintings of her.
All religious paintings are alla bit question marky because of
whitewashing.
But often in these paintings,she's seen as weeping.
She's seen as cowering.
(15:50):
She's seen as, feeble Really.
And this is in Renaissance andBaroque paintings, including a
painting by, Artesia, who wecovered in a previous episode.
Yeah.
So really interesting that we'vegot another crossover, which is
fabulous.
So I've given you a couple of,um, Artesia paintings there.
(16:11):
Of Mary, and you can kind of seethat this is not that brave,
courageous, loyal, defy personthat we were just talking about.
This is a very, depicted assomething else here.
I think grief, it seems, sheseems so sad.
Mm-hmm.
there could be a couple ofreasons for this.
Basically, one is quite simplythe patriarchy.
(16:33):
So this idea of deliberatepolitical campaigns carried out
by men in power to consolidateauthority, control the
narrative, and allow thosepivotal moments in history to be
given two men.
That's very simply probably whatGregory was doing.
The other is probably lazinessto be honest.
(16:55):
Um, often this is like brandedas confusion in the articles and
the research that you do.
And I don't think it'sconfusion.
I think it's people not readingproperly.
So.
Mary's a popular name.
Okay?
It is like today's Olivia,right?
We have lots of Mary's, um, Marycrops up again and again in the
(17:16):
Bible.
Again, that might not even beher name.
Mary might have been just athing that was added later down
the line.
We don't know that.
But regardless, in popularculture, there's Mary, the
mother of Jesus, Mary ofBethany, Mary Magdalene.
And, um, Mary, the sister ofMartha, okay.
And they all do similar thingsin terms of very, basically they
(17:40):
all are loyal to Jesus, right?
That's very similar.
That's kind of their theme.
But what happens is, assumptionsare made and things are crossed
over.
So there's a little quote hereabout that quote unquote
confusion.
Okay?
Um.
Mary Magdalene became confusedwith the two other women in the
Bible.
Mary, the sister of Martha, andthe unnamed sinner from Luke's
(18:04):
Gospel, 7 36 50, both of whomwashed Jesus' feet with their
hair.
It's a weird thing to do, but ithappens.
It's something Mary Magdalenedid do earlier on in her story.
Um, and with that and, Gregor'sassumption of her being a
sinner, um, that is what hasmaybe confused them a little
(18:29):
bit.
Okay.
So there was a sinful woman, whowas unnamed.
There were two people calledMary, that washed and.
It's possible that Greg gotconfused and called this Mary
the sinner.
But again, there's no scripturalconnection between Mary
Magdalene and this a namedsinner.
(18:49):
But it's important to know thatthese stories were originally
passed down orally.
They were written down decadeslater.
Narratives and threads canbecome blurred.
Right.
Especially with the name,repetition and yeah.
I mean.
I am not trying to throw shadeon Old Gregory, but if he's a
kind of a mind of one woman'svery much the same as another,
(19:11):
it doesn't take a huge leap forhim to go out.
Well, yeah, it was probably herand yeah, laziness is, is a good
as explanation as any really.
Right.
Greg in my eyes, is very muchthe enemy of this story.
He's the villain, right?
He is today's villain.
So this idea of Mary becomingthe sinner, then, travels
(19:33):
through the ages.
This fallen woman weeping, oftendepicted in caves, for example,
repenting of the viewer'sleisure.
Her body was even turned intoholy pornography, in art,
because lots of that happens inart all the time.
People have a boob.
Yeah.
Okay.
But it wasn't until.
Really late in the day, so 1969and then again in 2016 that the
(19:57):
Catholic Church actuallyacknowledged that maybe we need
to do something about this.
So this prostitute sinfulreputation that Mary Magdalene
has had persists for over athousand years.
And then it was in 1969 wherethey actually were like, no.
We've checked the text, we'regonna separate them.
Mary Magdalene is someonecompletely separate.
(20:18):
That originally happened, Kara,in 1969.
Okay.
The, the wild thing about that,Vicki, is that mm-hmm.
I was as, as I was just sayingto you, I was raised Catholic, I
went to Sunday school, I wasconfirmed, so I was 18 and I,
and I was learning.
Poorly.
I wasn't a great student becauseI, it wasn't for me, but fine.
So that would've been in the1980s.
(20:39):
And if you asked me then oryesterday, who was Mary
Magdalene?
I would've said she was aprostitute who hung out with
Jesus and his pals.
I wouldn't have said she was anapostle.
I wouldn't have said that shehad been found to be someone
other than who, the text I wastaught.
Maybe through my ownmisunderstanding, but I wasn't
(21:01):
going looking for thatinformation.
It was just what I imbued fromwhat I was taught.
So yes, perhaps in 1969 theCatholic church took a look, but
it didn't filter down to RhodeIsland in the eighties.
I will tell you that much wild.
That's so funny.
Um, but also I love that we'vekind of.
(21:22):
Because I was wondering whetherto even bother with this episode
because everyone knows about herbecause she is not necessarily a
known, but actually maybe she'sknown, but her story's unknown.
Maybe that's the, yeah, likeCatherine, the Great again, you
think you know, but you don't.
Yeah.
So that 1980s anecdote was veryvalidating for me.
(21:43):
Thank you.
Um, yes.
So this cultural image persiststoday, right?
It persisted to you yesterday.
It persisted to Jamie atlunchtime today when I was
talking to him about it.
Like it's definitely still inthe cultural, not because I'm
not being funny.
1969 to today.
Compared to old Greg in 1591 orwhatever it is to 1969, it's not
(22:06):
the same time.
No, it's not the same timeperiod that we've had to correct
this narrative that she's in.
She was, depicted a saint.
So she actually literally wentfrom sin to Saint.
That is her trajectory, which ispretty cool, isn't it?
Um, there's a quote there abouther sainthood, read that.
(22:28):
Mary Magdalene is considered asaint by the Roman Catholic,
Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, andLutheran churches with a feast
day on the 22nd of July.
The Eastern Orthodox churchesalso commemorate her on the
Sunday of the Mur Bearers, whichis the second Sunday after Kasha
Easter.
She is also an important figureand the Bahai faith.
(22:50):
Oh yeah.
So she's got reputations, she'sgot roles.
At least on paper nowadays iscemented as that role.
Right.
She's been through a lot, Maryin the past 1500, 1900 years.
She's done a lot.
Okay, but that's not where itstops.
There's a little extra twist foryou here, where it gets stranger
(23:12):
and stranger.
So.
Again, let's jump from when she,again, it's really interesting
that so much of this happensafter her death, essentially.
So now we're in 1896.
I'm gonna take you to the.
Bustly Streets of Cairo at alocal bazaar.
Think of the smells, think ofthe shouting.
(23:33):
Think of the sand and your feetat the heat.
It's gorgeous.
So there's tons of industry andbusyness of, markets and in one
of those market stools inCairo's Bazaar is a German
scholar who happened to comeacross a curious, Papyrus book,
(23:54):
bound in Leather and written in,Coptic.
This was the Gospel of Mary.
Oh yes.
Mic drop.
Yes, mic drop.
So, okay.
But illogically, of course therewas, if she was a disciple and
you have the Gospel of Luke, thegospel of Mar, the Gospel of, of
course there's one of Mary ofcourse, but it's just because
(24:18):
she's a woman.
But it doesn't exist anymore.
Women can't write.
Everyone knows that like, thisis the gospel accord according
to Mary Magdalene.
And it is considered, anapocryphal text.
So the story within it doesbegin after the resurrection.
The disciples are having visionsof Jesus at this point.
(24:39):
Jesus has encouraged hisdisciples to go out, preach his
teachings to the world, but alot of them, and this harps back
to the crucifixion redemptionstory, are afraid to do so
because they're worried they'regonna be killed for it.
It's classic, it's your classic,Harold situation.
Um.
And they say if they killed him,they're gonna killed us too,
(25:01):
because he, you know, was killedoriginally, blah, blah, blah.
But who defies this shockhorror?
It's Mary, the courageous.
Okay.
So there's another quote thereabout what Mary did next.
It's Mary who steps forward andsays, don't be worried.
He promised he would be with usto protect us.
It says she turns their heartstowards the good and they begin
(25:23):
to discuss the words of Saviorin texts like the Gospel of
Philip.
Mary was presented as a symbolof wisdom.
However, in the Gospel of Mary,she's the one in charge telling
the disciples about Jesus'steachings.
she's the one Cara.
Go on.
Mary.
Yes.
This matches her loyalty fromearlier, but it also gives her
(25:46):
character look another, facet,another dimension.
And that dimension is leadershipand influence.
Okay.
It's at this point that Peterasked Mary to tell them some
things that she might haveheard, that the other disciples
haven't.
Yeah.
And she was like, yeah, I'lltell you.
She talks about a vision thatshe had of Jesus and a
conversation that she had withhim.
As the gospel tell tells it,Mary then relays, the details of
(26:09):
these conversations.
But at this point, controversyarises, and she's basically
undermined a guy steps in thisguy called Andrew.
Um, and basically says, I dunnowhat the rest of you think, but
these is very strange to me thatshe's got these teachings.
You know, I mean, and I don'thave And then, Peter, who's
(26:29):
basically second in command, Ithink classically it was, are we
now meant to listen to you,Mary, why would, why would Jesus
talk to you?
And rather than talk openly toeveryone, did he prefer Mary?
To me, it's just classic be, oh,professional jealousy, little
high school beef gettings hurt.
Yeah, it's classic high schoolbeef.
(26:50):
And this is.
Not a surprise because what hashappened is that in a room of
men, a woman has been givenpower or has elicited herself to
power.
And either way she's got thatstatus in that room.
Um, and I don't.
(27:11):
The room turns.
Yeah, the room turns on you.
It's a classic.
I have seen this happen, thisexact conversation happen in
21st Century corporate UKClassic.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So why wouldn't it have happenedback then?
Yeah.
You know, if anything more so tome this tracks.
Yeah.
All this tracks to me.
(27:32):
Then you've got this little guy,Matthew, he defends Mary, um,
Peter's still a taxer and theyall kind of jiffies off.
Peter sees Mary's a rival forthe leadership of the group and,
it's very John Lennon and Yoko.
That's kind of how I felt when Iwas reading it.
Kind of a little bit likeauthor's girl on the scene,
blah, blah, blah.
Peter is the main major disciplefigure and she's been kind of a
(27:55):
side figure, quote unquote uptill that point.
Because she.
Because the story is about Jesusreally.
It's a side character to Jesus.
Um, you know, big shoes.
But one of the reallyfascinating things about this
gospel that was found is that,it gets us to rethink about the
(28:17):
story about Christian history isthat were the disciples always
on board?
Did they get it?
Did they need convincing?
Were they loyal?
You know what I mean?
Did they really understand anddid they really preach the
truth?
And also, how was this damngospel not uncovered until 1896?
This isn't, ugh, literalmillennia had passed.
(28:38):
Okay?
For womens who cement themselvesin the race.
There is the BBC article doesexplore, explore a little bit,
you know, maybe the Gospel ofMary was too radical.
Um, it presents Mary as ateacher and a spiritual guide,
that she isn't just a disciple,but she's more than that.
Mm-hmm.
She kind of, like you weresaying in the quote, is almost
(29:00):
like an author, almost one ofthe writers in this as well.
The Gospel of Philip, goes evenfurther describing Mary as
Jesus' quote unquote companion.
Um, which is kind of what Ithink you kind of alluded to
with your memory is that, um,they, they were, they were very
(29:21):
close.
They were little, little, youknow, little love birds.
Yeah.
There was, yeah, there was afilm that was called something
like The Temptation of Christ orsomething like this that was out
in, I wanna say it eighties.
And I think I never watched itbecause it was just beyond the
(29:42):
realm of possibility to watchsomething so controversial and
dark.
But it was controversial.
And I think that the implicationof the film was that Jesus and
Mary Magdalene had.
Had a romantic relationship, Iguess you'd say.
And I think, I don't think thatthe Catholic teachings that I
(30:02):
received really touched on that.
It was more like she was asinner and a woman of, you know,
ill repute and Jesus forgaveher.
And so there was still thatlike.
Dichotomy, but, but she was, youknow, she was unclean and he saw
beyond that sort of thing.
(30:24):
Whereas I think what you'retalking about there smacks very
much of this chick is gettingtoo big for her boots.
What is the fastest way todiscredit her?
I'm gonna say I saw.
I saw Goodie Mary kissing Jesus.
Like it's, it's, I love it.
It's so funny.
So classic smear, but whythey're bringing Jesus into it,
(30:46):
I don't quite know.
But yeah, I don't know, man.
And again, this is herreputation versus what we
actually know.
So it does say in the gospel ofPhilip Christ loved her more
than all the disciples and usedto kiss her often on the mouth.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Uh, this again links very nicelyto Louisa on Milli Ellen's
(31:06):
standard routine where, um, it'sseen in her standard routine
that they were very muchtogether.
They were like banging all thetime.
They were inseparable.
It was full on.
Very much making heaven on Earthis what she says.
Belinda Carl Lyle ROPs up.
It's a whole thing.
Okay.
Definitely watch it.
It's very, very funny.
But this intimacy, whether it'sphysical, whether it's
(31:27):
spiritual, like you said,whatever it is, made her rivals.
Okay.
Which she was a rival to Peter.
That also leads into anotherreason where maybe she
disappeared from history.
Okay.
Was maybe that's another reasonbecause it was pure jealousy.
Especially when she was so closein that inner circle for us to
know so little about her.
(31:47):
It's, it stinks of Let's cuther.
Let's literally write her out ofhistory basically.
Yeah.
Mary Magdalene was essentiallymade to disappear from the inner
circle just as women weredisappearing from the church's
hierarchy, throughout theretellings.
And it's no wonder that apatriarchal, religion might have
felt threatened by gospels thatshowed a woman as such a strong
(32:09):
role.
Regardless of it coming out inthe 1890s So.
They are the threads of MaryMagdalene.
Her story is a profound lessonin how history is written,
remembered, but also weaponizedand how we need to call it out
even today.
So even in, um, Louisa Oland's,standard routines.
(32:34):
She is actually doing a musicalcalled God is a Woman, which is
originally was one of herstandup shows.
And it's, got so much criticalacclaim already, even though
it's only in development phase.
So I definitely, that's one towatch out for.
Mary's identity can be rooted inher scriptural actions.
A wealthy, dedicated and loyaldisciple who stayed with Jesus
(32:54):
through to the bitter end, andmost importantly, the one chosen
by Christ to carry the messageof resurrection.
This single act is how shechanged history, serving as a
foundation of Christian beliefitself.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think this is the end ofMary's interpretations.
I've probably missed some in my,research, but she is one of
(33:14):
those characters that just keepsgiving.
There are plenty of papers outthere about how she's depicted
in modern feminism in whitefeminism today.
In some, relics, she seemed aspowerful, autonomous, very
important.
But it's this weird kind ofcomplexity and kind of
mysteriousness that makes herweirdly like relatable.
(33:36):
She has a lot of contradictions.
She's gone up against slander,which many of us have.
She's been erased from rooms,which many of us have.
And this has gone on throughouthistory, even when we've spoken
about, like the paintings fromArtes Time and again, we
question who gets to tell thestory, who is the story and who
gets to tell the story.
So hopefully this podcast is oneway of evening, the balance of
(34:02):
that story and the curious caseof Mary Magdalene.
Wow.
Thank you very much for that.
That's a little nudge, isn't it?
Just a little nudge to questionwhat you hear.
Mm-hmm.
And think about, think about whyand where these sort of truths
have come from.
(34:23):
I mean, absolutely.
Had never stopped to questionbeyond the kind of basic
questioning of whether any of itwas in any way true or meant
anything at all.
Mm-hmm.
You're just sort of presentedthese figures and told, this is
a good guy, this is a nicewoman, this is a bad sinner, and
(34:45):
this, you know, you think, okay,fine.
But yeah.
The.
The fact that her entirecharacter might have been
undermined because some dudesgot ambitious is, yeah,
horrendous.
Um, such an interesting pointyou made too, about the fact
that these disciples.
(35:06):
Are assumed to all just fullybelieve the same thing and have
the same unifying outlook and goout into the world and actually
they might have been jerks orjockeying for a position, or it
reminds me of conclave.
I don't know if you watchedthat, but that, what was that?
It's the film that was out thisyear.
I think it was a Robert Harrisnovel about the election of a
(35:27):
pope within the Catholic church.
Oh, interesting.
Oh, but it's the same, it's kindof same.
Yeah, you vote in the stone, youthink, you think, oh, they're
all just working together.
And then you watch this movieand you're like, no, these are
human people.
Yeah, that's right.
With ambition and agendas anddifferent perspectives on what
might be right.
And some of those guys who Marywas sort of speaking to in her,
(35:50):
in her gospel probably werelike, wait a minute, I thought I
was gonna be, yeah.
You know, the next big.
Cheese and really superimportant.
I've got all these ideas thatare gonna benefit humanity.
Piped down over there.
Yeah.
And like, yeah, trying to puther in her place.
That's, that's enough to thinkabout.
It hasn't.
If that is the case, humanityhas not changed one bit then.
(36:12):
No, we are right.
Yeah.
Regardless of this religiousstructure, like whatever
political structures, corporatestructures, family structures,
even like, you know, head of thefamily kind of thing.
You know, it's fascinating,isn't it, that actually how we
evolved, but how we use the samebasic tools to try to, oh God,
(36:34):
you know, kind of.
Dominate somebody else and yeah,like squash their point of view.
And if that someone happens tobe a woman and you happen to
have access to sexual slander asa, as a tool, then hey, that's,
that's been effective.
Which is exactly what old Gregowas doing 500 Yeah.
(36:55):
That's so disappointing.
He wanted something to back uphis agenda and found that.
I know gr I know they're sogrim, but Yeah.
But thank you for your 1980sreference points.
I enjoyed.
They were brilliant.
Well, if me having to sitthrough Sunday school every week
can't come up with something.
(37:17):
Yeah, well thanks very muchKara.
Thank you to you.
audio2663295054 (37:22):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
If you enjoyed it, please like,subscribe and comment below.
Find us on our socials,Facebook, Instagram, and
YouTube.
If you've got any ideas of womenyou'd like us to cover in a
future episode, please commenton the socials or email us at
She Changed history@gmail.com.
I think it was Grand Prix.
I saw it was Grand Prix, but we,yeah, my God.
Because of Thanksgivingpreparations.
I didn't remember that.
It was Grand Prix.
And keeping track of that is ajob I have elected to take
responsibility for.
Okay.
So my sister-in-law yesterdaywent, so did you guys get up at
four and watch the Qua andyou're like, no, I completely
(00:29):
forgot.
And then this No, I wasdistracted by Turkey.
Yeah.
Distracted by Turkey and pumpkinpie.
And then.
The today was the actual race.
And so our Thanksgiving dinner,so to speak, was yesterday and
last night we were all sittingaround playing cards and we
started playing at like nine.
And the question was, do we thenget up at four in the morning?
(00:50):
Mm-hmm.
Or three 30 in the morning towatch the race at four.
And by midnight we still hadn'tfinished the card game.
And by 1:00 AM we were like, no,we are not getting up in three
hours.
So it was getting closer.
It was terrible.
We ended up watching the recap.
It was.
Brilliant.
That's okay.
That's fine.
I'm still in it.
Everything you, that's why tohave to recap.
Yeah, exactly.
(01:10):
That's what it's for.
Percent.
What have you been up to whilewe've been having Turkey and
pumpkin pie and playing cards?
Nothing is exciting.
Oh, I went to a coffee shopyesterday.
That was it.
I went to a coffee shop.
Come on.
New coffee shop, I did go to acoffee shop and I did write as a
story.
Would you like to hear it?
I certainly would.
(01:31):
We are going into new territory.
Cara, we are venturing religion.
We have never done a religiousUm.
No.
And, I first heard about thisstory from a comedian of a
fabulous lady called, LouisaOlin.
Um, have you heard of her?
(01:53):
Mm-hmm.
Now I think you'd really likeher.
She's, I don't understand whyshe's not on the mainstream.
I don't understand why she'snot.
Have I got news for you?
Um.
What's that lie one, would I lieto you?
She should be on all those showsall the time.
I don't understand how shehasn't cracked'cause she's been
on my radar for year, like about10 years.
But yeah, I don't understand.
(02:15):
Maybe she's opting out of that.
Maybe it's choice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
But she's fabulous and she gotme through lockdown.
A lot of things.
So I found this story from herand I was like, well, I've not
heard of this lady.
Jamie had heard of this lady.
So you may have as well, um, Ijust hadn't for whatever reason.
(02:36):
So this is, the story of MaryMagdalene in the Bible.
She was a wealthy, loyaldisciple, the chosen witness to
the resurrection.
She was the messenger to themessengers, a saint.
But for thousands of years, theworld knew her as the weeping
anonymous sinner.
A scandalous prostitute erasedfrom power.
(02:57):
So how did one woman's storysplinter?
So, and why did a single sermonchange her reputation without
rebuttal?
This is the curious case of MaryMagdalene.
The woman who gave birth to areligion yet is still fighting
for her place in the worldtoday.
So it's curious.
It's curiouser and curiouser.
(03:19):
Obviously I've referenced LouiseOlin.
She does an amazing, hilarioussketch about this.
I loved it.
I've relied very heavily on aBBC article on Christianity,
specifically Mary Magdalene.
broadview.org.
Smithsonian Magazine had anarticle.
I kind of struggled with it if Iwas honest, but I've used a
couple of bits in there atWikipedia just to check up on
(03:40):
some bits and a white R academicpaper.
So.
Who is Mary Magdalene and whatdoes she do?
So to understand Mary, we kindof have to ignore what we think
about her.
So a little bit like Catherinethe great, you know, when we've
got this idea in our head, we'rekind of just gonna have to rip
that apart a little bit.
(04:01):
We can look at what actually waswritten in the Bible because the
Bible still exists.
It's just great news.
So.
Name is Mary of Magdala, whichsuggests her hometown was
Magdala, which is a village, onthe shore of the Sea of Galilee,
which is modern day Palestine.
So we're kind of around thatarea.
(04:23):
Some scholars suggest, Magdalameans tower in Aramic, which
makes her kind of the watchtower.
So Mary the Watchtower, whichmakes sense because, her and
Jesus very close, very close,and she was kind of watching out
(04:44):
for him.
So that's kind of where thatkind of theory comes from,
regardless of kind of what hername means.
The thing we need to know isthat she was a disciple.
And she was one of the leadingdisciples, among Jesus's
followers.
And, she was very much, it's nota question of whether she was
there or not, she was definitelythere because she's mentioned so
(05:06):
many times throughout all thegospels.
So she's mentioned in fourgospels, which is a record.
Not many people are in all fourgospels I know in total she was
mentioned 12 times.
So this is a lot.
So it is just kind of acharacter to take notice of,
right?
Yeah.
Important note, is that she wasrich.
She was a woman of some means,whatever that meant 2000 years
(05:27):
ago.
In the Gospel of Luke, it tellsus that Mary and other women,
including Joanna and Susanna,which I didn't, I did know they
were religious names, but I findit fascinating that Susanna is a
religious name.
I find it hilarious.
Anyway, so they.
Accompanied Jesus and the textsexplicitly states that they
provided for themselves, okay?
(05:47):
They weren't relying onhandouts.
They followed Jesus and theyfunded their own trips.
Never thought before about thefact that the disciples kind of
following him around.
On the preaching trail wouldneed just admin, like somebody's
gotta pay for the, the stable orthe room or the food.
Yeah, like, yeah.
(06:09):
So these are women obviously whoare capable of just not working,
going out on the road and.
You know, fan 10 girling, um,Jesus for, and Jesus and his
mission basically, they wereseen as radicals of their time
because they were travelingindependently, without a dad or
a chaperone.
You know, they were kind ofdoing their own thing.
(06:29):
I., They're described by LouisaOlin in her sketch as like Kim
Kardashians of the day.
So like, they were prim, theywere ready, they had money, they
were just gonna go and this iswhat they wanted to do and they
were gonna go make it happenregardless of what.
So that's the kind of vibe we'vegot about Mary.
We dunno much about her history,basically, Most famous thing we
(06:51):
know about Mary is that she isreferenced as, Mary from whom
seven Demons had got out.
Okay.
Wow.
So that is so important.
Demons quite a strong word.
Yeah.
Quite strong word.
What do we, what do we meanhere?
What we don't know?
(07:12):
What do you think?
That's the, that's the, this isthe whole point of this story is
that we dunno what demons areand this just shows that some of
these texts can't be trusted.
Right.
That's, we not always a hundredpercent sure what they mean.
Yeah.
Like you're not seeing that onan NHS, um, medical history or,
you know what I mean?
Like, it's not, it's notquantifiable with science, but
(07:35):
it, it obviously meant somethingwhen they wrote it and people
would've gone, oh yeah.
Seven demons.
Oh, you know, it could be likea, um.
Uh, a, a physical disability,um, some disabling factor in
some way.
The problem we've got is,nobody's a hundred percent sure,
(07:55):
but people assume what thatmeans.
That's the problem we've got.
And in classic fashion, it is a.
Man who makes this assumption.
Oh, okay.
And let me introduce you to PopeGregory the first.
Okay.
He is offered called Gregory theGreat.
Um, oh, he sounds amazing.
I mean, that's, that's a so farstrong name.
(08:17):
Strong name.
What?
What's he got to back it up?
What's he bringing?
Um, he was around in the latefive hundreds to six hundreds.
He's kind of over that centurycrossover.
He, was a very popular pope and,he was pope at a time where
obviously the Pope has a lot ofpower now, but it was, it was
(08:39):
strongly like at the height ofthat time, he.
Bob along, to a sermon one dayand preaches to his people, as
he preaches to, and he says thefollowing words, whom Luke
calls, the sinful woman whomJohn calls Mary, we believe to
(09:03):
be the Mary from whom sevendemons were ejected according to
Mark.
Okay, so that language isn'tlanguage that we would use today
because it's years ago, but thekey word that I want you to pick
out there is sinful.
She whom Lukes calls the sinfulwoman.
Alright.
We have no indication that thiswoman is sinful.
There is nothing in thatoriginal quote that indicates
(09:24):
sin, but what Greg?
Greg has done is make that leap.
He's made the leap from diman tosinful and sinful at a time.
Kind of means moral failure.
It means bad.
Yeah.
It means you are weak.
Okay.
And it is very short leap fromsinful to prostitute.
Okay.
(09:46):
Which is very on brandand forChristianity at that time.
Okay.
So what Oh, Greg has done, hastaken some words, twisted them,
popped them out, and used themfor his own agenda.
Okay.
Which makes sense.
That is what the patriarchydoes.
Sexuality in Christianity isoften brandished as a kind of
(10:06):
negative thing.
Mm.
Louisa on Milan, references thisvery briefly at the end of her
Mary Magdalene sketch, and Ijust wanna bring her
interpretation into it becauseit's very different so he could
read that Sex has beenweaponized to use for shame to
belittle and control when it'sthe most natural thing in the
(10:29):
world.
Which is very different.
It's a very differentinterpretation of sexy times
compared to Greg.
And, she goes on to do thisreally hilarious bit about the
clitoris, which I will not tryand do here because it's, it's
just too funny.
You'll have to go and watch asketch, we'll pop it in, our
show notes.
So not only is Greg made thishuge assumption, he's.
(10:49):
Taking the word demon, added sinfor giving it connotations to
prostitution.
He did this speech on GoodFriday.
So this is one of his biggestspeeches of the year.
He is the sole proprietor of theaudience.
They are only listening to him.
He is the pope.
It's his good Friday.
(11:09):
This is a big deal.
Okay.
So he spreads those lies and hespreads them wide throughout.
But there is nothing in theoriginal text to support.
Pope Gregory, the first theoryscholar state, like I said,
generally agree that sevendemons could be, an ailment,
like a physical maybe, apsychiatric illness, maybe
(11:30):
something like seizures, forexample.
So to understand the true impactof what Grego did, we kind of
need to understand the big partof Mary's story.
So we've kind of jumped a bit.
We've kind of gone from this iswho Mary is, this is what
happened to her 500 years later.
But to bring it back so.
In the scenes in the Bible, it'sreally interesting'cause one
(11:53):
women are always in the scenesof the Bible.
Really fascinating.
They were at these biggestmoments, if you like, in
religion.
They were there just like womenwere at war, just like women
were.
Yeah.
In royalty.
It's like they've always beenthere in all parts of life.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
All been there.
So that was interesting, firstof all, but her biggest
strength, Mary.
(12:14):
To have throughout her story isloyalty.
Okay.
When Jesus faced mortal danger,the men in his company, his
disciples, they did abandon butMary and was one of the women
who stayed with him.
He all the way up to the pointof crucifixion, right?
She was there.
She witnessed his death and shewas present at his burial.
(12:34):
We know this, it's in the text.
Her courage and, fidelity isvery different to how those men
reacted in that same situation.
Okay.
So that's just, you know, it'sinteresting that that is her
character through.
And then came the moment thatactually cements her role.
She was present at the tomb.
(12:56):
Often with other women in thatscene.
And the big scene is describedin the Gospel of John, which
this quote is from a, the BBCarticle, but it takes quotes
from the Gospel of John readthat.
Mary is Alone when someone asksher why she's crying.
(13:18):
She believes it's the gardenerand says they have taken my
Lord's body and I do not knowwhere it is.
The figure says her name andthen she sees Jesus.
She's overwhelmed and saysmaster, and goes forward to
reach out to him, but he stopsher.
He says, don't touch me.
Instead, she must go to theothers and tell them that he has
risen from the dead.
(13:39):
It's an awesome moment.
Jesus stands before her, yethe's beyond her reach.
She witnesses his redemption.
Okay.
She is the one who.
Was there at the time and thenis tasked with, go and spread
that word.
Okay.
She's tasked to be themessenger.
This is quite a big deal inChristianity.
(14:01):
This is like the underpinningmoment of Christianity.
This is the pivotal moment ofwhat them is given to a
religion.
And that all happened, thatmoment happens because she she's
there, she witnessed she shewent back to see him.
Not everyone was doing that.
She took the message and thenshe spread it.
Okay.
So she's absolutely the centralcharacter to redemption and
(14:24):
basically the birth ofChristianity it today.
She became what the early churchlater called, um, a spot to the
Apostles.
How are we saying that?
Apostles to the Apostle apostlesto the apostles.
I was raised Catholic, so thisis all very much my.
Million.
Brilliant.
Yeah.
(14:44):
So she's known as the messengerto the messengers.
Right?
That is a pretty big deal.
the Orthodox Church recognizedher equal to the Apostles.
This is the, she basically,she's the founding father of
Christianity.
That's what I'm trying to getat.
These are big swings that istaken to this female character.
(15:05):
Right.
Then.
She's branded as a sinner lateron.
Okay.
It's curious.
It gets curiouser and curiouser.
Okay.
So why does she have thesedifferent interpretations?
Okay.
Yeah.
Why in the text is she oneperson?
Yeah.
Her reputation is completelydifferent in popular culture.
(15:28):
Another example of how herreputation is tarnished through
society and culture is thenumerous paintings of her.
All religious paintings are alla bit question marky because of
whitewashing.
But often in these paintings,she's seen as weeping.
She's seen as cowering.
(15:50):
She's seen as, feeble Really.
And this is in Renaissance andBaroque paintings, including a
painting by, Artesia, who wecovered in a previous episode.
Yeah.
So really interesting that we'vegot another crossover, which is
fabulous.
So I've given you a couple of,um, Artesia paintings there.
(16:11):
Of Mary, and you can kind of seethat this is not that brave,
courageous, loyal, defy personthat we were just talking about.
This is a very, depicted assomething else here.
I think grief, it seems, sheseems so sad.
Mm-hmm.
there could be a couple ofreasons for this.
Basically, one is quite simplythe patriarchy.
(16:33):
So this idea of deliberatepolitical campaigns carried out
by men in power to consolidateauthority, control the
narrative, and allow thosepivotal moments in history to be
given two men.
That's very simply probably whatGregory was doing.
The other is probably lazinessto be honest.
(16:55):
Um, often this is like brandedas confusion in the articles and
the research that you do.
And I don't think it'sconfusion.
I think it's people not readingproperly.
So.
Mary's a popular name.
Okay?
It is like today's Olivia,right?
We have lots of Mary's, um, Marycrops up again and again in the
(17:16):
Bible.
Again, that might not even beher name.
Mary might have been just athing that was added later down
the line.
We don't know that.
But regardless, in popularculture, there's Mary, the
mother of Jesus, Mary ofBethany, Mary Magdalene.
And, um, Mary, the sister ofMartha, okay.
And they all do similar thingsin terms of very, basically they
(17:40):
all are loyal to Jesus, right?
That's very similar.
That's kind of their theme.
But what happens is, assumptionsare made and things are crossed
over.
So there's a little quote hereabout that quote unquote
confusion.
Okay?
Um.
Mary Magdalene became confusedwith the two other women in the
Bible.
Mary, the sister of Martha, andthe unnamed sinner from Luke's
(18:04):
Gospel, 7 36 50, both of whomwashed Jesus' feet with their
hair.
It's a weird thing to do, but ithappens.
It's something Mary Magdalenedid do earlier on in her story.
Um, and with that and, Gregor'sassumption of her being a
sinner, um, that is what hasmaybe confused them a little
(18:29):
bit.
Okay.
So there was a sinful woman, whowas unnamed.
There were two people calledMary, that washed and.
It's possible that Greg gotconfused and called this Mary
the sinner.
But again, there's no scripturalconnection between Mary
Magdalene and this a namedsinner.
(18:49):
But it's important to know thatthese stories were originally
passed down orally.
They were written down decadeslater.
Narratives and threads canbecome blurred.
Right.
Especially with the name,repetition and yeah.
I mean.
I am not trying to throw shadeon Old Gregory, but if he's a
kind of a mind of one woman'svery much the same as another,
(19:11):
it doesn't take a huge leap forhim to go out.
Well, yeah, it was probably herand yeah, laziness is, is a good
as explanation as any really.
Right.
Greg in my eyes, is very muchthe enemy of this story.
He's the villain, right?
He is today's villain.
So this idea of Mary becomingthe sinner, then, travels
(19:33):
through the ages.
This fallen woman weeping, oftendepicted in caves, for example,
repenting of the viewer'sleisure.
Her body was even turned intoholy pornography, in art,
because lots of that happens inart all the time.
People have a boob.
Yeah.
Okay.
But it wasn't until.
Really late in the day, so 1969and then again in 2016 that the
(19:57):
Catholic Church actuallyacknowledged that maybe we need
to do something about this.
So this prostitute sinfulreputation that Mary Magdalene
has had persists for over athousand years.
And then it was in 1969 wherethey actually were like, no.
We've checked the text, we'regonna separate them.
Mary Magdalene is someonecompletely separate.
(20:18):
That originally happened, Kara,in 1969.
Okay.
The, the wild thing about that,Vicki, is that mm-hmm.
I was as, as I was just sayingto you, I was raised Catholic, I
went to Sunday school, I wasconfirmed, so I was 18 and I,
and I was learning.
Poorly.
I wasn't a great student becauseI, it wasn't for me, but fine.
So that would've been in the1980s.
(20:39):
And if you asked me then oryesterday, who was Mary
Magdalene?
I would've said she was aprostitute who hung out with
Jesus and his pals.
I wouldn't have said she was anapostle.
I wouldn't have said that shehad been found to be someone
other than who, the text I wastaught.
Maybe through my ownmisunderstanding, but I wasn't
(21:01):
going looking for thatinformation.
It was just what I imbued fromwhat I was taught.
So yes, perhaps in 1969 theCatholic church took a look, but
it didn't filter down to RhodeIsland in the eighties.
I will tell you that much wild.
That's so funny.
Um, but also I love that we'vekind of.
(21:22):
Because I was wondering whetherto even bother with this episode
because everyone knows about herbecause she is not necessarily a
known, but actually maybe she'sknown, but her story's unknown.
Maybe that's the, yeah, likeCatherine, the Great again, you
think you know, but you don't.
Yeah.
So that 1980s anecdote was veryvalidating for me.
(21:43):
Thank you.
Um, yes.
So this cultural image persiststoday, right?
It persisted to you yesterday.
It persisted to Jamie atlunchtime today when I was
talking to him about it.
Like it's definitely still inthe cultural, not because I'm
not being funny.
1969 to today.
Compared to old Greg in 1591 orwhatever it is to 1969, it's not
(22:06):
the same time.
No, it's not the same timeperiod that we've had to correct
this narrative that she's in.
She was, depicted a saint.
So she actually literally wentfrom sin to Saint.
That is her trajectory, which ispretty cool, isn't it?
Um, there's a quote there abouther sainthood, read that.
(22:28):
Mary Magdalene is considered asaint by the Roman Catholic,
Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, andLutheran churches with a feast
day on the 22nd of July.
The Eastern Orthodox churchesalso commemorate her on the
Sunday of the Mur Bearers, whichis the second Sunday after Kasha
Easter.
She is also an important figureand the Bahai faith.
(22:50):
Oh yeah.
So she's got reputations, she'sgot roles.
At least on paper nowadays iscemented as that role.
Right.
She's been through a lot, Maryin the past 1500, 1900 years.
She's done a lot.
Okay, but that's not where itstops.
There's a little extra twist foryou here, where it gets stranger
(23:12):
and stranger.
So.
Again, let's jump from when she,again, it's really interesting
that so much of this happensafter her death, essentially.
So now we're in 1896.
I'm gonna take you to the.
Bustly Streets of Cairo at alocal bazaar.
Think of the smells, think ofthe shouting.
(23:33):
Think of the sand and your feetat the heat.
It's gorgeous.
So there's tons of industry andbusyness of, markets and in one
of those market stools inCairo's Bazaar is a German
scholar who happened to comeacross a curious, Papyrus book,
(23:54):
bound in Leather and written in,Coptic.
This was the Gospel of Mary.
Oh yes.
Mic drop.
Yes, mic drop.
So, okay.
But illogically, of course therewas, if she was a disciple and
you have the Gospel of Luke, thegospel of Mar, the Gospel of, of
course there's one of Mary ofcourse, but it's just because
(24:18):
she's a woman.
But it doesn't exist anymore.
Women can't write.
Everyone knows that like, thisis the gospel accord according
to Mary Magdalene.
And it is considered, anapocryphal text.
So the story within it doesbegin after the resurrection.
The disciples are having visionsof Jesus at this point.
(24:39):
Jesus has encouraged hisdisciples to go out, preach his
teachings to the world, but alot of them, and this harps back
to the crucifixion redemptionstory, are afraid to do so
because they're worried they'regonna be killed for it.
It's classic, it's your classic,Harold situation.
Um.
And they say if they killed him,they're gonna killed us too,
(25:01):
because he, you know, was killedoriginally, blah, blah, blah.
But who defies this shockhorror?
It's Mary, the courageous.
Okay.
So there's another quote thereabout what Mary did next.
It's Mary who steps forward andsays, don't be worried.
He promised he would be with usto protect us.
It says she turns their heartstowards the good and they begin
(25:23):
to discuss the words of Saviorin texts like the Gospel of
Philip.
Mary was presented as a symbolof wisdom.
However, in the Gospel of Mary,she's the one in charge telling
the disciples about Jesus'steachings.
she's the one Cara.
Go on.
Mary.
Yes.
This matches her loyalty fromearlier, but it also gives her
(25:46):
character look another, facet,another dimension.
And that dimension is leadershipand influence.
Okay.
It's at this point that Peterasked Mary to tell them some
things that she might haveheard, that the other disciples
haven't.
Yeah.
And she was like, yeah, I'lltell you.
She talks about a vision thatshe had of Jesus and a
conversation that she had withhim.
As the gospel tell tells it,Mary then relays, the details of
(26:09):
these conversations.
But at this point, controversyarises, and she's basically
undermined a guy steps in thisguy called Andrew.
Um, and basically says, I dunnowhat the rest of you think, but
these is very strange to me thatshe's got these teachings.
You know, I mean, and I don'thave And then, Peter, who's
(26:29):
basically second in command, Ithink classically it was, are we
now meant to listen to you,Mary, why would, why would Jesus
talk to you?
And rather than talk openly toeveryone, did he prefer Mary?
To me, it's just classic be, oh,professional jealousy, little
high school beef gettings hurt.
Yeah, it's classic high schoolbeef.
(26:50):
And this is.
Not a surprise because what hashappened is that in a room of
men, a woman has been givenpower or has elicited herself to
power.
And either way she's got thatstatus in that room.
Um, and I don't.
(27:11):
The room turns.
Yeah, the room turns on you.
It's a classic.
I have seen this happen, thisexact conversation happen in
21st Century corporate UKClassic.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So why wouldn't it have happenedback then?
Yeah.
You know, if anything more so tome this tracks.
Yeah.
All this tracks to me.
(27:32):
Then you've got this little guy,Matthew, he defends Mary, um,
Peter's still a taxer and theyall kind of jiffies off.
Peter sees Mary's a rival forthe leadership of the group and,
it's very John Lennon and Yoko.
That's kind of how I felt when Iwas reading it.
Kind of a little bit likeauthor's girl on the scene,
blah, blah, blah.
Peter is the main major disciplefigure and she's been kind of a
(27:55):
side figure, quote unquote uptill that point.
Because she.
Because the story is about Jesusreally.
It's a side character to Jesus.
Um, you know, big shoes.
But one of the reallyfascinating things about this
gospel that was found is that,it gets us to rethink about the
(28:17):
story about Christian history isthat were the disciples always
on board?
Did they get it?
Did they need convincing?
Were they loyal?
You know what I mean?
Did they really understand anddid they really preach the
truth?
And also, how was this damngospel not uncovered until 1896?
This isn't, ugh, literalmillennia had passed.
(28:38):
Okay?
For womens who cement themselvesin the race.
There is the BBC article doesexplore, explore a little bit,
you know, maybe the Gospel ofMary was too radical.
Um, it presents Mary as ateacher and a spiritual guide,
that she isn't just a disciple,but she's more than that.
Mm-hmm.
She kind of, like you weresaying in the quote, is almost
(29:00):
like an author, almost one ofthe writers in this as well.
The Gospel of Philip, goes evenfurther describing Mary as
Jesus' quote unquote companion.
Um, which is kind of what Ithink you kind of alluded to
with your memory is that, um,they, they were, they were very
(29:21):
close.
They were little, little, youknow, little love birds.
Yeah.
There was, yeah, there was afilm that was called something
like The Temptation of Christ orsomething like this that was out
in, I wanna say it eighties.
And I think I never watched itbecause it was just beyond the
(29:42):
realm of possibility to watchsomething so controversial and
dark.
But it was controversial.
And I think that the implicationof the film was that Jesus and
Mary Magdalene had.
Had a romantic relationship, Iguess you'd say.
And I think, I don't think thatthe Catholic teachings that I
(30:02):
received really touched on that.
It was more like she was asinner and a woman of, you know,
ill repute and Jesus forgaveher.
And so there was still thatlike.
Dichotomy, but, but she was, youknow, she was unclean and he saw
beyond that sort of thing.
(30:24):
Whereas I think what you'retalking about there smacks very
much of this chick is gettingtoo big for her boots.
What is the fastest way todiscredit her?
I'm gonna say I saw.
I saw Goodie Mary kissing Jesus.
Like it's, it's, I love it.
It's so funny.
So classic smear, but whythey're bringing Jesus into it,
(30:46):
I don't quite know.
But yeah, I don't know, man.
And again, this is herreputation versus what we
actually know.
So it does say in the gospel ofPhilip Christ loved her more
than all the disciples and usedto kiss her often on the mouth.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Uh, this again links very nicelyto Louisa on Milli Ellen's
(31:06):
standard routine where, um, it'sseen in her standard routine
that they were very muchtogether.
They were like banging all thetime.
They were inseparable.
It was full on.
Very much making heaven on Earthis what she says.
Belinda Carl Lyle ROPs up.
It's a whole thing.
Okay.
Definitely watch it.
It's very, very funny.
But this intimacy, whether it'sphysical, whether it's
(31:27):
spiritual, like you said,whatever it is, made her rivals.
Okay.
Which she was a rival to Peter.
That also leads into anotherreason where maybe she
disappeared from history.
Okay.
Was maybe that's another reasonbecause it was pure jealousy.
Especially when she was so closein that inner circle for us to
know so little about her.
(31:47):
It's, it stinks of Let's cuther.
Let's literally write her out ofhistory basically.
Yeah.
Mary Magdalene was essentiallymade to disappear from the inner
circle just as women weredisappearing from the church's
hierarchy, throughout theretellings.
And it's no wonder that apatriarchal, religion might have
felt threatened by gospels thatshowed a woman as such a strong
(32:09):
role.
Regardless of it coming out inthe 1890s So.
They are the threads of MaryMagdalene.
Her story is a profound lessonin how history is written,
remembered, but also weaponizedand how we need to call it out
even today.
So even in, um, Louisa Oland's,standard routines.
(32:34):
She is actually doing a musicalcalled God is a Woman, which is
originally was one of herstandup shows.
And it's, got so much criticalacclaim already, even though
it's only in development phase.
So I definitely, that's one towatch out for.
Mary's identity can be rooted inher scriptural actions.
A wealthy, dedicated and loyaldisciple who stayed with Jesus
(32:54):
through to the bitter end, andmost importantly, the one chosen
by Christ to carry the messageof resurrection.
This single act is how shechanged history, serving as a
foundation of Christian beliefitself.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think this is the end ofMary's interpretations.
I've probably missed some in my,research, but she is one of
(33:14):
those characters that just keepsgiving.
There are plenty of papers outthere about how she's depicted
in modern feminism in whitefeminism today.
In some, relics, she seemed aspowerful, autonomous, very
important.
But it's this weird kind ofcomplexity and kind of
mysteriousness that makes herweirdly like relatable.
(33:36):
She has a lot of contradictions.
She's gone up against slander,which many of us have.
She's been erased from rooms,which many of us have.
And this has gone on throughouthistory, even when we've spoken
about, like the paintings fromArtes Time and again, we
question who gets to tell thestory, who is the story and who
gets to tell the story.
So hopefully this podcast is oneway of evening, the balance of
(34:02):
that story and the curious caseof Mary Magdalene.
Wow.
Thank you very much for that.
That's a little nudge, isn't it?
Just a little nudge to questionwhat you hear.
Mm-hmm.
And think about, think about whyand where these sort of truths
have come from.
(34:23):
I mean, absolutely.
Had never stopped to questionbeyond the kind of basic
questioning of whether any of itwas in any way true or meant
anything at all.
Mm-hmm.
You're just sort of presentedthese figures and told, this is
a good guy, this is a nicewoman, this is a bad sinner, and
(34:45):
this, you know, you think, okay,fine.
But yeah.
The.
The fact that her entirecharacter might have been
undermined because some dudesgot ambitious is, yeah,
horrendous.
Um, such an interesting pointyou made too, about the fact
that these disciples.
(35:06):
Are assumed to all just fullybelieve the same thing and have
the same unifying outlook and goout into the world and actually
they might have been jerks orjockeying for a position, or it
reminds me of conclave.
I don't know if you watchedthat, but that, what was that?
It's the film that was out thisyear.
I think it was a Robert Harrisnovel about the election of a
(35:27):
pope within the Catholic church.
Oh, interesting.
Oh, but it's the same, it's kindof same.
Yeah, you vote in the stone, youthink, you think, oh, they're
all just working together.
And then you watch this movieand you're like, no, these are
human people.
Yeah, that's right.
With ambition and agendas anddifferent perspectives on what
might be right.
And some of those guys who Marywas sort of speaking to in her,
(35:50):
in her gospel probably werelike, wait a minute, I thought I
was gonna be, yeah.
You know, the next big.
Cheese and really superimportant.
I've got all these ideas thatare gonna benefit humanity.
Piped down over there.
Yeah.
And like, yeah, trying to puther in her place.
That's, that's enough to thinkabout.
It hasn't.
If that is the case, humanityhas not changed one bit then.
(36:12):
No, we are right.
Yeah.
Regardless of this religiousstructure, like whatever
political structures, corporatestructures, family structures,
even like, you know, head of thefamily kind of thing.
You know, it's fascinating,isn't it, that actually how we
evolved, but how we use the samebasic tools to try to, oh God,
(36:34):
you know, kind of.
Dominate somebody else and yeah,like squash their point of view.
And if that someone happens tobe a woman and you happen to
have access to sexual slander asa, as a tool, then hey, that's,
that's been effective.
Which is exactly what old Gregowas doing 500 Yeah.
(36:55):
That's so disappointing.
He wanted something to back uphis agenda and found that.
I know gr I know they're sogrim, but Yeah.
But thank you for your 1980sreference points.
I enjoyed.
They were brilliant.
Well, if me having to sitthrough Sunday school every week
can't come up with something.
(37:17):
Yeah, well thanks very muchKara.
Thank you to you.
audio2663295054 (37:22):
Thank you for listening to this episode of She
Changed History.
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