July 15, 2025 • 59 mins
What does it take to discover Jeff Buckley when your boss says "he has no charisma"? How do you stand up to Tommy Mottola when he tries to intimidate you with an East River "walk and talk"? And what happens when Madonna becomes your roommate and starts throwing out all your "unhealthy" food? Kate Hyman knows.
As one of the first female A&R executives at major labels, Kate has shaped music history through her work with the Flaming Lips, Moby, the Cranberries, Aimee Mann, and countless others. In this riveting conversation, she pulls back the curtain on the music industry's male power structure and how she navigated it with unflinching honesty.<
Kate's journey from archaeology student to A&R powerhouse wasn't planned. Growing up partly in England with a father who ran a major film studio, she found emotional salvation in music—especially darker, lyrical artists like Leonard Cohen and Neil Young. After being fired as a receptionist who couldn't type, she was surprisingly rehired for A&R when executives noticed she was always listening to exciting new music no one else had discovered.
Her talent-spotting approach is refreshingly pure in today's data-driven world: "I would put something on, and either the hair on my arms would stand up and I'd get this incredible feeling in my stomach and heart—and that was that." This instinct-first methodology led her to champion artists others dismissed, including turning down major label opportunities when executives couldn't see an artist's potential.
Through her Big Ears Music Consultancy, Kate now helps artists navigate the industry independently, providing the kind of hands-on development that's vanished from major labels. "There's no A&R left at labels—just researchers," she observes. "These young artists really want help with their songs, with making them better, with finding the right producer."
Listen in for candid stories about living with Madonna ("the worst roommate"), knocking on Marianne Faithfull's door to land a job, and why the music industry's gender dynamics remain challenging despite progress. Kate's unforgettable insights will change how you hear music and understand the creative forces that bring it to life.
https://www.bigearsmusicconsultancy.com
https://www.instagram.com/kate.hyman1
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Many thanks to Anne Tello for her vocals on the theme song and to our sponsor 'Heard City'.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi, you're listening to Sarah Nagourney and welcome
to.
She Creates Noise, a newpodcast spotlighting women who
power the music industry, comingto you from New York City.
Now, if you don't know me yet,here's a little background.
I'm a songwriter, producer,manager, educator and mentor.
I've written platinum-sellingsongs, had tracks on
(00:45):
Grammy-nominated records andreleased music on both major and
independent labels.
I've been a jazz singer, ajingle singer, toured with big
bands and became a pop artist,and I've performed at festivals
across the US, europe and Asia.
These days, I focus on writingwith and developing young talent
.
In the coming weeks, I'll bepulling back the curtain on the
(01:07):
music industry's femalechangemakers.
Some are close friends, othersI'm just getting to know, but
all have reshaped the businessin profound ways.
My goal here is to helplisteners better understand how
the music business really worksand just how instrumental women
behind the scenes have been.
You'll hear from both sides ofthe desk artists, producers,
(01:32):
managers, label executives,lawyers.
Women making things happen,often without the spotlight on
them.
Thank you for joining me onthis journey.
Now let's dive in.
Today I'm honored to be speakingwith one of the true icons of
(01:52):
the music industry, kate Hyman.
Originally from the US, she waseducated in England.
Kate moved back to the US toattend the University of
Southern California and went onto hold senior A&R positions at
several major record labels,something that was almost
unheard of for women of hergeneration.
Her career includes stints inA&R at MCA, z Records, v2,
(02:13):
chrysalis and BMG MusicPublishing.
She's been instrumental in thecareers of artists like the
Flaming Lips, amy Mann, moby Twoto the Maytals, the Cranberries
, tom Petty and yes, she wasonce Madonna's roommate.
Many younger women in the musicindustry today may not realize
how much work it took fortrailblazers like Kate to break
(02:34):
through the male-dominatedsystem.
The doors that are now openexist because of women like her
who refuse to be shut out.
Women like her who refuse to beshut out.
In this episode, we'll hearabout some of those defining
moments where she had to standher ground and prove herself in
a world that wasn't alwayswelcoming.
Kate is fearless, driven andstill deeply passionate about
(02:54):
discovering and developing newtalent.
Her latest venture, big EarsMusic Consulting, is an artist
development firm that's alreadymaking serious waves, drawing
both indie and industry veteranseager to work alongside her.
I just want to say a warmwelcome to Kate Hyman.
I'm so happy to have her heretoday.
We've known of each other for awhile.
(03:16):
We've only met a couple oftimes on Zoom and we're doing
that again here, but it's verynice to have you and excited to
get into all the cool stuffyou've done.
It was not a typical choice forwomen at the time.
Tell us a bit about how you gotinto the business and what drew
you to A&R, and also what didyour family think?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What drew me to the music business was music.
I loved music from when I was alittle girl.
Whenever I was sad, I would puton music and it would make me
happy.
It really affected me on a verydeep level.
Even when I was young I tendedto love things that were a
little dark.
My favorite artists were likeLeonard Cohen and I loved Dylan,
(04:01):
which a lot of women don'tnecessarily love.
I loved Neil Young.
He was probably my biggestinfluence, and I grew up in
England and went to boardingschool at a very young age and I
remember whenever I washomesick or something I was 10,
I would climb under this tablewith my cassette player and play
(04:27):
Harvest and it just got methrough the day.
I mean, it was that powerful tome.
So I didn't think that I wasgoing to go into the music
business.
I just loved music.
I went to Berkeley inCalifornia and studied
archaeology and dead languages,and my dad was in the film
(04:52):
industry.
In fact, my grandfather boughtWarner Brothers from Jack Warner
.
That's when it became SevenOrders.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Wow, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
My dad ran the studio in Los Angeles, so I grew up in
England, but when that happenedI would spend a lot of time in
Los Angeles.
My parents were divorced but Iwould spend the summers in LA
and so I was always surroundedby actors and producers and
directors and it didn't seemthat glamorous to me, it was
(05:23):
just my family's friends.
So I was never reallystarstruck.
It never seemed to me likeanything other than the family
business.
She creates noise.
One summer my dad said you know,because he kept sending me and
(05:45):
paying for archaeological well,for digs Wow, where did you go?
The main one was a place calledMehron, which is eight
kilometers from Lebanon, and itwas actually during the war.
So we had machine guns up inthe olive grove and we had to
learn how to use them Prettywild.
(06:05):
But one summer he said you know, you really should get a job,
seeing as you studied deadlanguages and archaeology, maybe
you should start, you know,maybe doing a summer job instead
.
So he had a friend called DannyCordell who owned a company
called Shelter Records with LeonRussell.
(06:27):
So I, at the time, which wasthe 70s, I was hired as the
receptionist and they asked meif I could type and I said yes,
and I could not type Not evenone word.
And I said yes, and I could nottype not even one word Got to
say yes.
(06:47):
So I was fired within a week andthen two weeks later I got a
phone call from Shelter sayingwe'd like you to come back and
do A&R, because when I was thereceptionist I was always
listening to music that nobodyhad heard, that they really
liked.
And it was clear that I wasgoing out to shows every night.
(07:12):
And I grew up during the, whenI was a teenager, during punk
rock.
So I was living in Englandduring the Sex Pistols and
Buzzcocks In San Francisco, Iwas going to this club, the
Mabouhe, and there were allthese bands like the Avengers
and from San Francisco, and thenwhen I went to LA that was
exploding.
And then eventually I came toNew York and CBGB's, the Ramones
(07:34):
, blondie television, so it wasweird.
It's sort of like punk followedme around or I followed it
around.
So I was kind of a punker interms punk rocker in terms of my
attitude.
I wasn't scared, I was sort ofa bit of a fighter and not
nervous, partially because of myfamily, but also just because I
(07:57):
just always thought ofmusicians as people who had a
job, I mean, much like anybodywho has a job.
I never actually even thoughtit was cool.
I thought it was fun and it wasgreat that they knew exactly
what they wanted to do andneeded to do it.
It was like food or water forthem the true musicians, the
(08:20):
true artists.
And I just loved that and Iloved the characters because I
was a little strange people,true artists and I just loved
that and I loved the charactersbecause I was a little strange
people would say and I totallyidentified with the artists more
than the business side.
And I always remember my dadsaying to me okay, you can be in
the music business, you cannotbe in the film business.
(08:41):
Not that I would have listenedto him, but he said film
business people first of all.
The more the money in abusiness, the worse the people
are.
So he said the film businesspeople are crooks posing as
gentlemen.
This is way back.
And the music business arepretty decent people posing as
(09:06):
crooks.
So that was his opinion.
So that really was my first job, was working shelter.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And it might have been true back then too, right?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
It kind of was.
It kind of was the TommyMottolas of the world which was
a little later.
You know, they weren't mobsters, but they all acted like they
were Wannabes, that kind ofthing.
I remember at Z Records I wasworking with Michael Zilka's
wife, who he'd signed this girl,christina, who did a great
(09:37):
version of Is that All?
There Is where she changed thelyrics and Tommy was managing
her, tommy Mottola and he said,hey, let's go for a walk.
And we walked to the East riverand I was like, are you trying
to intimidate me?
Do you think you're a mobster?
(09:57):
And he started laughing but Iwas like, why are we walking on
the East village?
You know, that's apparentlywhere people get thrown away
into the water.
So that was sort of the kind ofvibe and it wasn't serious, it
really wasn't.
So that was my first job andhow I got into it.
I fell in love with it.
I worked closely with Tom Pettywhen he was making his second
(10:21):
record, and with Leon Russelland with Jimmy Cliff.
I love great music.
Now, that's very subjective,but I feel like I know exactly
what great music is and anythingthat is less than that is just
not worth listening to and istaking up space, and I felt that
(10:44):
way back then.
You know, of course, now it'seven worse, a million, two
million times worse a lot ofstuff out there, a lot of noise
too much noise and it's veryhard for young people, and older
people as well, to find greatmusic because a lot of it
nobody's even heard, apart frommaybe someone like myself who
(11:05):
gets a link online and I'm likethis is amazing.
Ckas night.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Right and I want to talk to you more about how you
find talent.
I'm just going to mention Ididn't know about Tom Petty, but
I was going to mention some ofthe artists that you've been
involved with the Flaming Lips,Nathaniel Ratcliffe and the
Night Sweats, Amy Mann, HenryRollins, Toots and the Maytals,
Moby, Mary Ann Faithfull, KidCreole, Paula Cole and many,
(11:32):
many more, and I know you'vebeen behind signing many of
these artists and I wonder ifyou could elaborate on sort of
what singled them out, what madethem like the right artist to
sign at that time.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
It was incredibly simple.
I would put something on at thetime.
I would put a piece of music on.
You would get sent boxes andboxes of cassettes in the
beginning, and you were told notto listen to anything that
wasn't sent by an attorney or bya manager, and of course, I
(12:05):
didn't listen to those.
I listened to all the thingsthat were sent from the artist.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Wish I'd known you back then I certainly sent stuff
in, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I didn't feel like our attorneys necessarily had
ears and I didn't feel like Ihad to bow down to them, and a
lot of the music came to methrough word of mouth from
people that I respected theirtaste.
And I would listen to somethingand either the hair on my arms
(12:36):
would stand up and I'd get thisincredible feeling in my stomach
and my heart, and that was that.
That was why I would signsomething.
If it was good and people weretalking about it, I didn't care.
It had to be great for me, ithad to be excellent.
I wouldn't use the word unusual, but I would use the word
(12:58):
honest, where, when you werelistening, you felt like you
actually got to know the person,even if you didn't, even if,
because several artists come offstage and people go up to them
and say, oh, I went through thattoo, and the artist just says,
well, that was just a song, youknow, didn't happen to me, but
it seemed very honest and notlike everybody else, like people
(13:22):
would say this sounds likeso-and-so, or they'd always
compare it to something and I'dsay, okay, well, they already
exist, so why would we needanother one?
Now, everybody listens to musicor is influenced by other music
and I can tell sometimes whatthose influences are very
(13:43):
quickly.
But they use the influences intheir own way, they make it
their own, so that's fine.
Would say, for example,particularly with pop music,
that it sounds just like someoneelse, I'd be like great, but
(14:05):
you've heard one song and thatdoes not make a career.
You need to have somebody whois going to keep doing this and
not have a pop song not do aswell as everybody tells you.
I mean, I couldn't deal withthe fact that people would say
this is a smash and I'm like no,it's not.
The public will decide thatit's a smash.
When it's a hit, it's like youknow, executives would try to
(14:28):
say it beforehand, and so Ialways had a very clear vision
of what I wanted to sign, and soit made it very simple as a job
.
I'd listen to something andthere'd be piles of tapes that I
was like maybe, and as soon asI heard something great, I just
toss it all in the trash becausethat was the one.
(14:50):
So that's really how I figuredout how to sign people.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Very instinctive, really.
Just you went by your instinct.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's instinct and it's your heart.
As soon as your head comes inin the beginning, it gets more
complicated.
Now you have to start thinking,like at one point you know,
after you love music, is it agood manager?
Can this person play well?
Did they do a good show?
Are they dedicated?
(15:18):
Are they going to give up orare they going to continue?
How many more songs did theyhave that I haven't listened to?
I'd like to hear everything.
And will they develop and getbetter and better and better?
So that's when the head comesin and you combine the two and
you make your decision.
But I've signed things withoutmy head, just my heart, because
(15:41):
I just believe that if you'resuccessful one out of ten times,
that's really good as an ARperson.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Dedication is really big, isn't it?
I mean, you can find so manytalented people that just don't
get it together right andluckily I haven't worked with
those people.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Luckily I've had people that are really hard
working and you can kind of tellright away and the music helps,
you see that because they pourtheir blood and soul and heart
into their songs and it feelslike they need to do what
they're doing.
I'm married to a musicianamazing guitar player, amazing
writer, producer and if hedoesn't play guitar every day
(16:26):
it's like deep depression setsin.
It's absolutely vital and it'sgot nothing to do with money or
success.
The success comes from thefeeling of having done something
.
Well, you know whether you're afloor sweeper and you've
cleaned the floor properly.
It's funny, people used to askme what I did at clubs and I
(16:49):
would never say I was an A&Rperson.
I would say, oh, I work at abank or something like that.
I just didn't want people tolook at me a different way.
They would find out later butpeople would start fawning and
it was just awful, not somethingyou wanted.
I mean, I didn't want it.
I think some people wanted it,especially men, I will say,
(17:13):
because a lot of men took theirpersonality and who they were
and their importance veryseriously.
They took that.
And women, I don't think theydid it quite as much.
It's like if I lost my job orsomething.
I would, of course, get upsetfor a while, but I wouldn't
(17:33):
think who am I?
I would say I'm the same person.
While but I wouldn't think whoam I?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
I would say I'm the same person, I'm just not
working right now for money inthe music business, but I'm
still an A&R person at heart.
That's what I do.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, the question is really like how did you kind of
single out who was the talentthat you were going to wind up
signing and I think, yeah, Ithink you would really answer
that question.
Uh, and now here's a morecolorful question.
I want to hear some examples.
I've heard you tell somestories um women in executive
roles in the music industry arestill in the minority.
What challenges have you facedas a woman in anr and what
(18:14):
advice would you give to youngwomen aspiring to be in
leadership roles in thiswonderful business?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I would say that from the beginning it was also.
It was almost like men pattingyou on the head Well done.
It was that kind of feeling andthat was from the guys who were
okay.
I think that women in the wellat the start were only allowed
to be publicists or publishers.
There were no A&R women forrecord companies, I think me and
(18:43):
maybe a couple of other women.
That was it.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And you had some women mentors.
I think you've mentioned acouple.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Karen Berg was probably one of my biggest
mentors, but when I went to herand asked her to help me get a
job at a major, she said no.
And I said why not?
And she said because I want youto have a life.
And a lot of women in theindustry in the beginning and
still to this day, not as bad,but if they wanted, if they had
(19:11):
children or were married, thatwas definitely a cross against
them.
It was a negative because menwere allowed to have 12 kids and
they had their pictures allover their desk.
But if you said you werepregnant when you went in for an
interview, they go oh my God,look at the time.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I think you had mentioned that something like
that had happened to you.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
There were a few things that happened.
Well, first of all, I had threementors that were men, because
there weren't a lot of women,and they were men too, of course
.
There was a man, well, dannyCordell, at Shelter, and then
there was Nigel Grange whosigned Sinead and World Party
(19:58):
and the Waterboys and really wasvery supportive.
But my main person, I think whowas the most supportive, was
Seymour Stein.
We met and he basically justtook me under his wing and he
would call me and say what showshave you been to see?
And I trust your tastecompletely.
So I'm going to go see that andthis is how it works.
(20:20):
And A&R a large part of A&R isdoing nothing.
A lot of A&R people want to puttheir stamp on it.
There's ego and a big part islistening to a record and saying
it's perfect, don't touch it.
So he taught me that kind ofthing, very important things.
Nigel taught me that theartists aren't your friends.
(20:43):
They can become friends lateron, but they're not your friends
because your job is sometimesto tell them very difficult
truths and if you're not, you'renot doing your job for them.
So you don't want to hurt theirfeelings.
But I've always been extremelyblunt and to the point of
telling an artist that she hasto fire the drummer, and the
(21:04):
drummer happens to be herboyfriend.
So he taught me how to bestrong and do the job, which is
to help the artists be betterjust help them be better and
also navigate and also defendthem, particularly women,
(21:25):
against the men in the companywho said, oh, she's too
overweight or she's not prettyenough, or let's put her in this
outfit or that outfit.
And I was from the beginning,always defending the women and
pretty much telling the men theywere disgusting.
I was pretty outspoken, butthere were, I mean, a couple of
(21:46):
stories were at Capitol Records.
A long time ago I was calledfor an interview.
I had a job, but they said comeon and talk to us.
I walked in and the guy said tome I'm only interviewing you're
my friend, so I'm going to tellyou we're only interviewing
women because we have tointerview a certain number, but
we're not going to give a job toa woman.
(22:07):
So I basically went up to hisdesk and emptied it out onto the
floor and walked out and neverspoke to him again.
Another time I went in and Iwas pregnant and a lot of women
in the industry forgot to have afamily.
They literally forgot becausethey were so busy working harder
(22:30):
than anyone else.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
There was a greeting card with that picture, I
remember.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So they literally forgot and I was like I'm never
going to be that person, thatpicture I remember.
So they literally forgot and Iwas like I'm never going to be
that person, I'm never going toforget to have a kid.
And you know, it was before Ieven wanted to get married or
have a kid.
I was a wild child, I mean.
I took as many drugs as the men.
I drank them under the table.
I was very badly behaved, Iadmit it.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I didn't know this.
Now I know.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Oh yeah, crazy stories.
But everybody was taking drugsin the industry in the 80s.
I mean, that's just the way itwas.
People were sort of trippingover themselves because they
were on quaaludes and stuff likethat.
It was a very different time.
But even the men that arethosewere my mentors and they were
just wonderful.
(23:18):
A lot of the other men werevery nice to me.
I never had anybody that wasnasty, but they kind of hit that
head tap thing.
It was kind of like well, welldone, good for you Things that
they wouldn't necessarily say toa man.
But it's funny because now it'sbecause of Me Too.
(23:40):
It's gotten to the point where alot of young women are still
trying to find their way in thatmovement and, as with any
movement, that's important thependulum swings way far to the
right in order for it to take on.
And so, for example, when I wasat BMG, a lot of the women
(24:02):
started going to HR, which Itold them never to do, because
HR worked for the label and asmuch as they said they weren't
going to say anything, theywould tell the label you were a
troublemaker and they would sayI went into this man's office
and he told me that the sweaterI was wearing was really nice.
Now, come on, you got to havesome kind of balance there.
(24:26):
I would recommend to women that, unless they feel threatened or
their boss is going after themto someone who's senior than
them, where they really feeluncomfortable, but not because
they're told to feeluncomfortable they should really
think about when to react andwhen not to react.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I don't know if you understand what I'm saying well,
I mean, I guess some of thesethings are minor enough and if
you're going to go and complainabout them, you know depends on
how important yeah, somebodytold me I had a great new
haircut.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'd be like yay, Thank you yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I totally agree.
I think I think the pendulumswung too far.
It's silly.
Someone says you look nicetoday, and you know it certainly
did.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
But and this is kind of personal, but I'll tell you,
with the Me Too movement Ialways said that never happened
to me.
I never was put in a positionlike that.
And then I sat down and Ireally had to think about it and
I was, and it was really hardto admit, but some of these guys
would want to sleep with youand put you in this really tough
position.
That was uncomfortable At thetime.
(25:38):
I was too young to understandor deal with it, but I had to
come to that conclusion and itwas very difficult because I
always said, oh, I was never oneof those people, never happened
to me, but it did.
It happened a few times.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
But fortunately it didn't seem to ever be a
decision you had to make.
Gee, if I want this job, then Ihave to do this.
There was never anything likethat.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Oh no, it was never anything like that, but I was
tough about it.
I mean, if somebody triedsomething on, I would say to
them if you don't stop, I'mgoing to kick you in the balls.
I was pretty tough about it.
People used to say I was like aguy.
I wasn't, I was just a strongwoman, yeah, strong woman.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I've seen pictures.
You're very cute and you'restill very beautiful.
So, yeah, I'm sure you justknew how to handle yourself.
That was the secret.
I know we talked a little bitabout how you find talent and I
had heard some discussions aboutbecause you have a daughter.
I guess she's a bit older now.
She would often she's 22, Ithink that was like five years
(26:43):
ago.
She was often helpful, tellingyou hey, mom, check this out, or
here's a playlist.
Does she still do that or areyou?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
No, we stopped because our taste is.
Well, she had wonderful tastein terms of the older artists.
Like she loved the Kinks sheloved.
Like right now she lovesFontaine, dc, dc, fontaine.
She loves certain artists thatI love and I turn her on to
music, like she didn't know LolaYoung, so I turned her on to
(27:09):
Messy you turned me on to it.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Love that song.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
But a lot of the stuff that she loved, I didn't.
We have very different tastes.
Now there are certain thingsthat definitely cross over, like
there's an artist that I havesigned called Valerie June, who
was one of my favorite artistsever and she loved and loves
Valerie.
She also loves MarianneFaithfull, and Marianne actually
(27:36):
became her godmother.
Speaking of becoming friends,Wow, that's great.
Yeah, it's so sad that she diedlast month.
It was really sad.
I'll send her stuff and she'llsay this is awful.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Do you usually agree with her or not?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
No, I send it because I like it, and then she'll say
it's awful, and part of me willwonder, because she's my
daughter, so I'm like well,maybe she's right, but I still
kind of go with my own instincts.
I love all kinds of music.
You know anywhere, fromBrazilian jazz to Afrobeat, from
(28:21):
Brazilian jazz to Afrobeat to alot of independent, a lot of
singer-songwriters.
Lyrics are very, very importantto me.
They're like half the song andif there's a lyric that takes me
out of the song, even one word,I'm on my own Gone.
Yeah, yeah, everybody'sdifferent, but I see the artist
as you know, a whole.
(28:42):
Whether when it's writing asong it's cliches, drive me
crazy.
There's only so many ways tosay I love you.
I actually teach at a school inEngland called the Songwriting
Academy and one of the classeswas write along a love song
without the word love in it, ormoon, june, blue skies, and I
(29:07):
made a list of the things thatthey could not put in the song
and a couple of the people justwrote the most amazing songs.
They were fantastic.
So there's that kind of thingthat touches me is when somebody
actually says something in adifferent way that you've never
heard before.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That makes sense and similarly, finding still finding
talent.
Like people get excited aboutwhat they see on TikTok and
social media, Do you payattention to that or do you find
much more different ways tolocate talent?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I found Valerie on YouTube and it was just her on a
stool with a guitar singing asong.
So I tracked her down.
I was like, oh my God, I haveto find this woman.
So that's one of the few that Ifound that way.
(30:11):
A lot of them I found becausesomebody, another artist.
I would talk to artists that Irespected and ask them what they
liked or who they'd met or whothey'd seen that maybe was young
and had some talent.
I would always go to the artist.
I trusted them more thananybody else, so a lot of it was
(30:33):
word of mouth.
I didn't really ever care aboutlooking at the top 10 or
looking at who had nowadays themost streams.
I could care less and I fightagainst that and it's doable.
It just is a little moredifficult but it's completely
doable.
(30:54):
It's not rocket science, themusic business, and I think a
lot of people try to make itseem that way so they can make
up a job or get a big salary.
But I'm like I used to sit inmarketing meetings and once I
literally said so I need oranges, I need milk.
I was like this is like we'regoing marketing.
(31:15):
It was so boring.
Everybody would say the samething.
There was no creativity, andthat I find has been a little
less with the indies, but verylittle creativity when it comes
to marketing and selling recordsVery little.
At one point you could buy offthe radio stations and, yes, you
(31:38):
could get a hit.
You could choose an artist andsay I'm going to spend all this
money and it's going to become ahit and those days are kind of
behind us.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think kind of kind of, kind of yeah, not completely
, no spotify youtube there's.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
There's still some favors going back and forth,
maybe different kinds of favors,but they are going back and
forth.
It's not spoken about as much.
I actually kind of miss thedays when you could say this
person's amazing, let's makesure everybody hears them.
I kind of miss that because nowit's such a toss-up and it's so
difficult for the artist to beheard.
(32:18):
I think kids are getting sickto death of Spotify.
Right, I hear it all the timeTikTok.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I mean I was kind of happy when TikTok was going to
go away because I know peoplespend way too much time on
content and they're just notspending the time on the writing
.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It's a lot of visual now, which I understand.
I mean, it's a generation ofpeople that are used to visual,
so the two combine, and so I doget that, because there is that
star quality and you can'tcreate it.
You either have it or you don't.
And that's another piece.
(32:55):
That's important to me is whensomeone walks in a room and you
just feel this thing coming off,this vibe coming off of them,
where you're like who is thatit's really true?
So I do get it, and that's theother part that I forgot to tell
you.
That is important to me.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
The special feeling about them.
People just have that.
When I first saw Jeff Buckleyplay at Sinead, it was like he
was washing the dishes and thatwas this tiny little club where
you could get up and sing if youheard about it, or you just go
wash the dishes or just hang out.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I used to sing there back in the day.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
There you go.
So you know someone like Jeff.
I was working at Imago, whichwas Terry Ellis's label, and I
flew Jeff in from Los Angeles.
I bought him a guitar for whenhe was in New York and I brought
him in and I he was performingwith a band called Gods and
Monsters and after the show Isaid to him you know, that's not
(34:02):
the band for you and you reallyneed to be.
You are the star, you areobviously the person, and Gods
and Monsters had a guitar playerthat just played all over his
voice and it just was awful.
So he came to the office and Iintroduced him to Terry Ellis
(34:24):
and I said I really wanna signthis kid.
And Terry Ellis, after themeeting, said to me he has no
charisma.
And I was like are you out ofyour?
Am I not aware?
I was like are you out of your?
mind.
I mean, that's the kind ofpeople that were I had to work
with sometimes and it happens.
It happens several times.
(34:44):
I brought the cranberries inand Terry again flew to Ireland
to see them play in Dublin andhe said that they all looked
like potato heads, which is aBritish thing to say and it's
extremely rude.
And he turned that they alllooked like potato heads, which
is a British thing to say, it'sextremely rude.
And he turned them down.
So I took them to Denny Cordell, who is at Island, who was one
(35:06):
of my mentors from the beginning, and I gave it to him and said
will you please sign this?
And he listened to the half ofthe first verse and said they're
in and signed verse and saidthey're in and signed.
So I would bring things like Isaid to other people because
that's the way it is.
I love artists and I love music, not about me.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
The most important thing was to make sure it got
heard.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, I mean a lot of people, just the men, and I
keep saying the men because itwas mainly men and that also
connects to you.
Know, I work in a hospital orthis.
When people would ask me who Iwas, they, uh, they wanted to be
the stars, and I feel like thejob of any an art person is to
(35:50):
be in the background, not in theforeground.
The star is the, the, theartist is the artist, and you're
just there to help them inevery way that you can as the
industry changes.
To me it doesn't really changeat all.
I think that the numbers gamenow you don't shop records
(36:11):
anymore the artist has tosomehow figure out how to get
their numbers up, depending onwho they are.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
The numbers game used to be signing a lot of people
and see what sticks.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Now the numbers game is come in with numbers or we're
not even gonna look at youreally I don't play that game
and I never have not with anyartists that I've signed, even
recently, never or any artiststhat I work with.
So that's not something that Ifind will last.
(36:43):
It's something that very oftenis just pushed by the label
pushed up.
And then there are theseamazing artists that just go
viral and like a Lizzie McAlpine, those kinds of artists and
like a Lizzie McAlpine, thosekinds of artists you know that
means the music is really goodand you pay attention to them,
but the numbers don't meananything and they also are
(37:08):
disgraceful because the artistsget paid nothing.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Nothing For sure.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
So it's a game that when I work with an artist now I
try to help them understand howto work that, but it's just a
necessity.
It's not something that I findin the least bit interesting or
important, and I feel like it'schanging.
(37:34):
Everything goes round and roundand round, and because fans
don't really care and there'stoo much out there and they're
not happy with Spotify anymoreand they're figuring out that
the artists aren't getting paid,I feel like change is coming.
But the main thing is, whateverit is whether it's numbers,
(37:55):
it's Spotify, it's TikTok, it'sYouTube it's about creativity in
selling the record, not justmaking the record.
And I don't see.
I talked to a lot of differentmarketing companies and people
who work with streams and socialmedia.
They all say the same thingit's not interesting, it's not.
(38:17):
Like I said, it's not rocketscience and there's no
creativity there.
There's nothing like, hey,let's try this, this has never
been done before and somebodywill say, oh no, no, we can't do
that.
Or there's this thing calledthe waterfall effect, where you
put out a song and it's not yourbest song, and then you put out
(38:39):
another song which isn't yourbest song and then you put out
the third song with the album.
That's the rule.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
And then it goes down in a waterfall, hopefully, and
you get numbers that way.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Why is that the rule?
And secondly, why would you notput your best song out first?
Why?
I mean, if I go and do go toSpotify because somebody told me
to go listen to something andit's not the best song, it's
just good, not brilliant, I'mnot going to go back and listen
to any more.
So I never understood that.
(39:11):
So I fight against that.
And when it comes to marketing,I'm always telling people to
put their best song out first.
Comes to marketing, I'm alwaystelling people to put their best
song out first and then theirnext.
You know, all the songs shouldbe fantastic.
That's the goal.
You shouldn't have filler.
Right there should be no filler.
And as far as records, you know, they don't really mean
(39:32):
anything anymore, except thatpeople love to buy vinyl and I
love vinyl.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
It's consecutive singles being put out.
Yeah, exactly, except forsomeone like Beyonce who can put
out an album Exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
But it just makes no sense to me not to put your best
foot forward.
It makes no sense at all.
So I don't believe in thewaterfall and I won't.
And I'll tell the artists thatand if they trust me, they'll go
along with what I'm tellingthem.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah, and to that end , I guess, in a way, that there
are a lot more artists arestaying independent, and I know
you're now with Big EarsConsultancy.
You are independent and doingit your own way and how does
that what your experience in thepast with majors compare with
the freedom that you have now,and what are the pros and cons?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
It's wonderful I get to work with artists when
they're not quite there, but youcan see the spark and you can
help them in an A&R way.
And there's no A&R left atlabels.
It's researchers.
If you're lucky, they'll listento the record.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Right, they're like social media, researchers, in
other words.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
There's no such thing as A&R.
There's no such thing ashelping somebody make a record,
and the labels think thatartists don't want A&R.
Now, when I started Big EarsMusic Consultancy, I was testing
it out as well because I trulybelieved artists still wanted
that help, and I was right.
These young artists really wanthelp.
(41:10):
They want help with their songs, they want help to make them
better, they want comments, theywant help with who might be the
right producer or how to make arecord when you don't have a
lot of money.
They want all of this and theydon't want to be on a major.
The only reason they would goto a major is for the money,
(41:32):
because they can't afford tohire somebody to work.
Spotify and YouTube and allthose things and eventually, if
they're a pop singer, radio.
So when it comes to that, Ijust advised this artist that
they needed to break throughEngland, because I have partners
in England now.
(41:53):
So the radio there is regionaland it's not as expensive.
So the radio there is regionaland it's not as expensive and
you can actually get through asan independent artist without a
lot of money.
You can break there.
The press still means more.
There's still paper press.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
You're so creative, absolutely.
It's such a creative placeTrying to think of other things.
I know you were told it reallyis amusing that you were
Madonna's roommate.
You can just tell us brieflyabout that.
I'm sure everyone will get akick out of that.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
I was her roommate when I was at Z Records.
I signed a band calledBreakfast Club, which was Steve
Bray, and he wrote her firstsongs like Lucky Star.
It was sort of him andJellybean Benitez who wrote the
songs and he was dating Madonnaand she just moved from Detroit
and I had an apartment reallyfunky apartment, my first
(42:43):
apartment in the city and I hada spare room and he asked if she
could move in.
So she moved in and she was theworst roommate.
I mean she would for me anyway.
Anyway, she would throw out thefood from the refrigerator that
was mine because it wasn'thealth food.
She would get up in the morningat like seven, six o'clock and
(43:06):
start exercising and singingsongs really loud with that bow
in her hair.
And finally she becamesuccessful and got another place
, thank God.
But she was a nice girl.
I mean she was very nice, butshe just drove me mad.
She was not the best roommate.
(43:28):
That's the story.
I mean it's a very simple story, but I'll tell you.
Did I tell you the story ofMarianne Faithfull?
Speaker 3 (43:35):
No, you didn't tell me that story.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
After I worked at Shelter Records, this record
Broken English had come out andI fell in love with the album.
Absolutely did not stop playing.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
And this is the beginning of your career, right.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yes, and I met the producer of Broken English, mark
Miller, monday and I managed toget Marianne's address from him
in London.
I flew to London, I got anapartment, just like sharing
with these girls that I didn'tknow.
I biked over from Battersea toChelsea, knocked on Marianne's
(44:15):
door, didn't know her, never mether and I said hi, my name's
Kate, I want to work for you,and this is in her first book
actually.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Those were the days, huh.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
She said go away, read Madame Bovary, liaison
Dangereuse Nana, and then comeback.
So I biked back off toBattersea and read the books and
knocked on her door and shesaid did you read them?
And I said yes and she saidwell, then you're moving in,
(44:49):
you're working for me.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
And how long did you do that for?
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Three years I was living with her.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
You lived with her.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, with her husband, ben Briarley, and I was
like her assistant manager sortof.
She didn't have a manager, so Iwas sort of playing that part.
That's great.
And then many, many, many yearslater she came to my apartment
(45:18):
in New York City and she saidcan I stay for a couple of weeks
?
I'm writing my book.
So this guy, david, who waswriting the book, would come
over every day and tape her andthey would talk and there were
notes everywhere and after threeweeks she started to paint the
guest room pink and I went, oh,this isn't three weeks.
(45:40):
She started to paint the guestroom pink and I went oh, this
isn't three weeks.
Three years later she was stillliving with me and I would come
home from work.
I was at V2.
No, I was at Imago.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
But this was in New York or this was in London In.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
New York.
I mean, it was years later.
It came very close and after Iwould come home from work and
she would be in her pajamas andCheers would be on TV and she
would say, how was work darling?
And I'd be like, oh, it wasfantastic.
And she would I made you achicken, a roast chicken, let's
(46:19):
go and sit and watch Cheers.
It was like my wife, my malewife, female husband or whatever
you want to say.
It was the most hystericalrelationship, but that's how it
started and nowadays I don'tthink that happens that often,
where an A&R person would go andjust knock on someone's door
(46:41):
because they were in love withthe music, they would call the
lawyer, they would call themanager.
That's not how I did it.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah, different world .
Speaker 2 (46:51):
I have been so incredibly lucky in finding such
amazing music.
I mean, right now I am workingwith such good artists, so I'm
doing the A&R for them, but I'malso walking them through the
better marketing companies thatdon't cost as much and the
(47:11):
people that I trust the press,people putting a team together
for them based on what they canafford, and sometimes, when they
can't afford anything, we'llfigure out a way to make it work
anyway.
And I actually just I've beenworking with an artist for three
(47:32):
and a half years and I promisedmyself I would never manage
anybody and I'm going to managethis girl with this guy in
England.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
Can you share a name, or is it too early?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Well, you won't see anything, but you will
eventually.
Her name is Amia, and then justthe letter K, and she's this
22-year incredible writer singer.
She has that it factor and sheknows exactly who she is.
(48:05):
She knows how to presentherself, she's incredibly smart
and she was in theater, sotherefore the stage is something
that is not new to her at all,but she has to put a band
together for this record so shein the uk or is she in the
states?
she's in chicago, but, um, I'vejust found some amazing artists
(48:30):
and also artists that are known,that um have called me through,
that have called me throughreferrals and things like that.
So they just need me to sort ofbe I suppose you would call it
the project manager or themanager who actually gets paid,
(48:51):
and I'm the one who talks to allthe other people to make sure
that they're all on the samepage, that they're doing the
right job, that kind of thingwhich has made me which I love,
because I've had to learn beyondA&R how to work the system, and
it's called working the systemto me.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
You're such an incredible resource.
You've got all this amazingknowledge.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Well, it's fantastic because I'm learning every day
and I get bored very easily.
So to be able to learnsomething at my age still every
day and work with people intheir 20s is such a gift.
I mean, I just love it and I'mnever gonna stop.
(49:45):
I'm just not.
It's the same as my husband'sguitar if I can't find new music
and get excited every now andthen.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
What else are we gonna do?
Right, we've, we've got to dowhat we do.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Yeah, exactly.
So that's sort of been myexperience and I would say to
any young person, young womanwho wants to get into this
business, they have to have thatpassion, and if they're only
doing it because they think it'sglamorous, it is not glamorous,
it's hard work.
(50:22):
The men are still in charge.
It's a boys club.
Ever since Me Too, it's almostbecome more difficult because
the boys club wants to stay theboys club.
So they're scared to hire womenbecause they don't want to get
sued and they don't know whenthat's going to happen.
So to a certain degree it'sbackfired.
It's come back now.
(50:42):
It's come back around, but fora few years they were backfired
and women were not getting hired.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
So you feel that they are getting hired now?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
A little bit more, but A&R is still missing women,
and I also believe that womenand men listen to music
differently and it's reallyimportant to have women
listening with their ears andmen listening with their ears.
I know, for me it's lyrics,it's the base.
(51:15):
I want to feel it in my stomachand with a lot of guys and I'm
generalizing, but it's, oh myGod, that drum sound.
How did you?
get it, or a guitar or this orthat, and I'm more focused on
the the person in front, rightLyrics and musically I just want
(51:39):
to walk out and go.
What a great band Like, meaning, to a certain degree, that they
didn't get in the way.
Almost like with a movie themusic is there to improve the
film.
The film is not there toimprove the music.
I mean, I still know A&R peoplewho've been doing this for
(52:02):
years and they will have analbum finished and they will
actually say you need to work tothe sync department, you need
to work the first track, and thesync department politely says
actually we give the whole albumto the supervisors and they
(52:27):
choose the track that works withthe scene if you're lucky.
But we're not working a single,unless, of course, something
comes along where it actuallyworks.
I can't believe that A&R peoplestill don't understand that Not
all of them, but quite a few andthe marketing people, which is
(52:49):
the other thing, which is thatA&R people aren't, I don't think
, involved enough in themarketing meetings at the major
labels.
They're the people that knowthe artist the best.
They're the ones who can say no, no, he or she wouldn't do that
, they wouldn't do thatinterview or they wouldn't.
No, they won't put that singleout.
(53:10):
That's not what they wanna do.
This is what they wanna do andA&R people are losing even more
power.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
They really are, because it's all about the
marketing.
It's not about the artist.
It's about what's going to sellor how they can sell.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Also immediate gratification, like a single
that works, not a career andeverybody's going to get.
People are going to get introuble.
They're really going to get introuble because they're going to
run out of artists and newartists.
And you just watch the Grammysand it's the same people over
(53:46):
and over and over and over.
I think it's less so in Englandand certain other territories,
and we ignore the rest of theworld, as if our music is the
most important, and I just don'tbelieve that artists are given
what they deserve, the chancethat they deserve, so they have
(54:08):
to do it themselves, and that'sfine with me, because then they
make all the money.
And there's certain people thatI would actually give a shout
out to, like Tim at Partisan.
Tim is incredible.
He's the head of the company,but he's also the head of A&R,
(54:30):
which is the only way it canreally work, because he can push
.
His name is Tim Putnam and hecan push what he believes in,
which it used to be like ArnettErdogan and all those people
were the head of A&R producersand also head of the company, so
it worked out really well.
Now, honestly, it's justeventually.
(54:51):
I think it's going to go to AIin terms of the research.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
I know we didn't talk about that too much.
It's hard to cover everything,but is there anything that you
would like to say that I didn'tcover?
Any questions I didn't ask.
I know we didn't talk enoughabout your big years, but we did
a bit in that you found somegreat artists.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
I found some great artists.
I'm helping them grow.
I'm doing exactly what I wasfrustrated by in the end at the
labels, when they were allbuying up people's catalogs, and
I was completely frustrated themore they talked about numbers
and I just wanted to make surethat I was correct.
(55:34):
It was taking a chance, but Iwanted to go back to the artist.
I wanted to go back to thembeing the center of our business
.
So that's why I started it andI wasn't sure if it was going to
work or not, and it's taken twoto three years, but it's
working.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Sounds great, the amount we've talked about it.
I'm just so excited to see whathappens with it and it sounds
like a lot of fun and you can doit in your own way, in your own
time.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
And we're creative.
I'm on the phone with theartist going, hey, what about
this?
And they're like that sucks.
And I'm like, or they'll saywhat about this?
And I'm like that's a terribleidea.
But we're connected andcommunicating and it's really
fun.
We're not dealing with anybodyin a label that is stopping us,
(56:23):
it's just go, go, go, which ismagical.
And the only the only otherstory I'll tell you is when Moby
became enormously successfulwith play.
I remember going out to clubsor dinners and it didn't happen
all the time because I figuredit out the first time it
(56:43):
happened.
But somebody came up to me andsaid congratulations, that's all
they said.
And I was like for what?
I literally didn't understand.
I was like, did they think Ijust had a kid or is it my
birthday?
And they were talking aboutMoby being a success and I
literally could not.
(57:04):
I couldn't connect the two.
It just wasn't the way.
I thought it was like, why?
Why are you congratulating me?
You should be congratulatinghim.
It just, you know, once againbeing in the background.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
That's terrific.
It's been so interestingtalking to you and I really
appreciate your coming on mypodcast and I can't wait to
finally air it and and let theworld hear your cool stories.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
Thank you so much for having me, and it's fun to
really think about it, reallythink about what you're doing
and why, and so I reallyappreciate it.
And you know, if anybody, ifany women, have any questions,
they can go to my site and I'llanswer them.
Speaker 3 (57:48):
I appreciate that.
Okay, alrighty, thanks so muchTake care, thanks, bye.
She creates noise.
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(58:09):
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I'd also like to thank Antelloaka XON for singing the she
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Thanks for listening to sheCreates Noise.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe, rate and
share.
I want to thank the team hereBlair Reilly, jelena Stavanovic,
(58:31):
emily Wilson and the Master ofEngineering and Grammy-winning
Cooper Anderson.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
We'll see you next time.
She Creates Noise.
She creates noise, she createsnoise.
She creates noise.
We hear her voice.
She creates noise.
Hi, you're listening to Sarah Nagourney and welcome
to.
She Creates Noise, a newpodcast spotlighting women who
power the music industry, comingto you from New York City.
Now, if you don't know me yet,here's a little background.
I'm a songwriter, producer,manager, educator and mentor.
I've written platinum-sellingsongs, had tracks on
(00:45):
Grammy-nominated records andreleased music on both major and
independent labels.
I've been a jazz singer, ajingle singer, toured with big
bands and became a pop artist,and I've performed at festivals
across the US, europe and Asia.
These days, I focus on writingwith and developing young talent
.
In the coming weeks, I'll bepulling back the curtain on the
(01:07):
music industry's femalechangemakers.
Some are close friends, othersI'm just getting to know, but
all have reshaped the businessin profound ways.
My goal here is to helplisteners better understand how
the music business really worksand just how instrumental women
behind the scenes have been.
You'll hear from both sides ofthe desk artists, producers,
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managers, label executives,lawyers.
Women making things happen,often without the spotlight on
them.
Thank you for joining me onthis journey.
Now let's dive in.
Today I'm honored to be speakingwith one of the true icons of
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the music industry, kate Hyman.
Originally from the US, she waseducated in England.
Kate moved back to the US toattend the University of
Southern California and went onto hold senior A&R positions at
several major record labels,something that was almost
unheard of for women of hergeneration.
Her career includes stints inA&R at MCA, z Records, v2,
(02:13):
chrysalis and BMG MusicPublishing.
She's been instrumental in thecareers of artists like the
Flaming Lips, amy Mann, moby Twoto the Maytals, the Cranberries
, tom Petty and yes, she wasonce Madonna's roommate.
Many younger women in the musicindustry today may not realize
how much work it took fortrailblazers like Kate to break
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through the male-dominatedsystem.
The doors that are now openexist because of women like her
who refuse to be shut out.
Women like her who refuse to beshut out.
In this episode, we'll hearabout some of those defining
moments where she had to standher ground and prove herself in
a world that wasn't alwayswelcoming.
Kate is fearless, driven andstill deeply passionate about
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discovering and developing newtalent.
Her latest venture, big EarsMusic Consulting, is an artist
development firm that's alreadymaking serious waves, drawing
both indie and industry veteranseager to work alongside her.
I just want to say a warmwelcome to Kate Hyman.
I'm so happy to have her heretoday.
We've known of each other for awhile.
(03:16):
We've only met a couple oftimes on Zoom and we're doing
that again here, but it's verynice to have you and excited to
get into all the cool stuffyou've done.
It was not a typical choice forwomen at the time.
Tell us a bit about how you gotinto the business and what drew
you to A&R, and also what didyour family think?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What drew me to the music business was music.
I loved music from when I was alittle girl.
Whenever I was sad, I would puton music and it would make me
happy.
It really affected me on a verydeep level.
Even when I was young I tendedto love things that were a
little dark.
My favorite artists were likeLeonard Cohen and I loved Dylan,
(04:01):
which a lot of women don'tnecessarily love.
I loved Neil Young.
He was probably my biggestinfluence, and I grew up in
England and went to boardingschool at a very young age and I
remember whenever I washomesick or something I was 10,
I would climb under this tablewith my cassette player and play
(04:27):
Harvest and it just got methrough the day.
I mean, it was that powerful tome.
So I didn't think that I wasgoing to go into the music
business.
I just loved music.
I went to Berkeley inCalifornia and studied
archaeology and dead languages,and my dad was in the film
(04:52):
industry.
In fact, my grandfather boughtWarner Brothers from Jack Warner
.
That's when it became SevenOrders.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Wow, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
My dad ran the studio in Los Angeles, so I grew up in
England, but when that happenedI would spend a lot of time in
Los Angeles.
My parents were divorced but Iwould spend the summers in LA
and so I was always surroundedby actors and producers and
directors and it didn't seemthat glamorous to me, it was
(05:23):
just my family's friends.
So I was never reallystarstruck.
It never seemed to me likeanything other than the family
business.
She creates noise.
One summer my dad said you know,because he kept sending me and
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paying for archaeological well,for digs Wow, where did you go?
The main one was a place calledMehron, which is eight
kilometers from Lebanon, and itwas actually during the war.
So we had machine guns up inthe olive grove and we had to
learn how to use them Prettywild.
(06:05):
But one summer he said you know, you really should get a job,
seeing as you studied deadlanguages and archaeology, maybe
you should start, you know,maybe doing a summer job instead
.
So he had a friend called DannyCordell who owned a company
called Shelter Records with LeonRussell.
(06:27):
So I, at the time, which wasthe 70s, I was hired as the
receptionist and they asked meif I could type and I said yes,
and I could not type Not evenone word.
And I said yes, and I could nottype not even one word Got to
say yes.
(06:47):
So I was fired within a week andthen two weeks later I got a
phone call from Shelter sayingwe'd like you to come back and
do A&R, because when I was thereceptionist I was always
listening to music that nobodyhad heard, that they really
liked.
And it was clear that I wasgoing out to shows every night.
(07:12):
And I grew up during the, whenI was a teenager, during punk
rock.
So I was living in Englandduring the Sex Pistols and
Buzzcocks In San Francisco, Iwas going to this club, the
Mabouhe, and there were allthese bands like the Avengers
and from San Francisco, and thenwhen I went to LA that was
exploding.
And then eventually I came toNew York and CBGB's, the Ramones
(07:34):
, blondie television, so it wasweird.
It's sort of like punk followedme around or I followed it
around.
So I was kind of a punker interms punk rocker in terms of my
attitude.
I wasn't scared, I was sort ofa bit of a fighter and not
nervous, partially because of myfamily, but also just because I
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just always thought ofmusicians as people who had a
job, I mean, much like anybodywho has a job.
I never actually even thoughtit was cool.
I thought it was fun and it wasgreat that they knew exactly
what they wanted to do andneeded to do it.
It was like food or water forthem the true musicians, the
(08:20):
true artists.
And I just loved that and Iloved the characters because I
was a little strange people,true artists and I just loved
that and I loved the charactersbecause I was a little strange
people would say and I totallyidentified with the artists more
than the business side.
And I always remember my dadsaying to me okay, you can be in
the music business, you cannotbe in the film business.
(08:41):
Not that I would have listenedto him, but he said film
business people first of all.
The more the money in abusiness, the worse the people
are.
So he said the film businesspeople are crooks posing as
gentlemen.
This is way back.
And the music business arepretty decent people posing as
(09:06):
crooks.
So that was his opinion.
So that really was my first job, was working shelter.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
And it might have been true back then too, right?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
It kind of was.
It kind of was the TommyMottolas of the world which was
a little later.
You know, they weren't mobsters, but they all acted like they
were Wannabes, that kind ofthing.
I remember at Z Records I wasworking with Michael Zilka's
wife, who he'd signed this girl,christina, who did a great
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version of Is that All?
There Is where she changed thelyrics and Tommy was managing
her, tommy Mottola and he said,hey, let's go for a walk.
And we walked to the East riverand I was like, are you trying
to intimidate me?
Do you think you're a mobster?
(09:57):
And he started laughing but Iwas like, why are we walking on
the East village?
You know, that's apparentlywhere people get thrown away
into the water.
So that was sort of the kind ofvibe and it wasn't serious, it
really wasn't.
So that was my first job andhow I got into it.
I fell in love with it.
I worked closely with Tom Pettywhen he was making his second
(10:21):
record, and with Leon Russelland with Jimmy Cliff.
I love great music.
Now, that's very subjective,but I feel like I know exactly
what great music is and anythingthat is less than that is just
not worth listening to and istaking up space, and I felt that
(10:44):
way back then.
You know, of course, now it'seven worse, a million, two
million times worse a lot ofstuff out there, a lot of noise
too much noise and it's veryhard for young people, and older
people as well, to find greatmusic because a lot of it
nobody's even heard, apart frommaybe someone like myself who
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gets a link online and I'm likethis is amazing.
Ckas night.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Right and I want to talk to you more about how you
find talent.
I'm just going to mention Ididn't know about Tom Petty, but
I was going to mention some ofthe artists that you've been
involved with the Flaming Lips,Nathaniel Ratcliffe and the
Night Sweats, Amy Mann, HenryRollins, Toots and the Maytals,
Moby, Mary Ann Faithfull, KidCreole, Paula Cole and many,
(11:32):
many more, and I know you'vebeen behind signing many of
these artists and I wonder ifyou could elaborate on sort of
what singled them out, what madethem like the right artist to
sign at that time.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
It was incredibly simple.
I would put something on at thetime.
I would put a piece of music on.
You would get sent boxes andboxes of cassettes in the
beginning, and you were told notto listen to anything that
wasn't sent by an attorney or bya manager, and of course, I
(12:05):
didn't listen to those.
I listened to all the thingsthat were sent from the artist.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Wish I'd known you back then I certainly sent stuff
in, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I didn't feel like our attorneys necessarily had
ears and I didn't feel like Ihad to bow down to them, and a
lot of the music came to methrough word of mouth from
people that I respected theirtaste.
And I would listen to somethingand either the hair on my arms
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would stand up and I'd get thisincredible feeling in my stomach
and my heart, and that was that.
That was why I would signsomething.
If it was good and people weretalking about it, I didn't care.
It had to be great for me, ithad to be excellent.
I wouldn't use the word unusual, but I would use the word
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honest, where, when you werelistening, you felt like you
actually got to know the person,even if you didn't, even if,
because several artists come offstage and people go up to them
and say, oh, I went through thattoo, and the artist just says,
well, that was just a song, youknow, didn't happen to me, but
it seemed very honest and notlike everybody else, like people
(13:22):
would say this sounds likeso-and-so, or they'd always
compare it to something and I'dsay, okay, well, they already
exist, so why would we needanother one?
Now, everybody listens to musicor is influenced by other music
and I can tell sometimes whatthose influences are very
(13:43):
quickly.
But they use the influences intheir own way, they make it
their own, so that's fine.
Would say, for example,particularly with pop music,
that it sounds just like someoneelse, I'd be like great, but
(14:05):
you've heard one song and thatdoes not make a career.
You need to have somebody whois going to keep doing this and
not have a pop song not do aswell as everybody tells you.
I mean, I couldn't deal withthe fact that people would say
this is a smash and I'm like no,it's not.
The public will decide thatit's a smash.
When it's a hit, it's like youknow, executives would try to
(14:28):
say it beforehand, and so Ialways had a very clear vision
of what I wanted to sign, and soit made it very simple as a job
.
I'd listen to something andthere'd be piles of tapes that I
was like maybe, and as soon asI heard something great, I just
toss it all in the trash becausethat was the one.
(14:50):
So that's really how I figuredout how to sign people.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Very instinctive, really.
Just you went by your instinct.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's instinct and it's your heart.
As soon as your head comes inin the beginning, it gets more
complicated.
Now you have to start thinking,like at one point you know,
after you love music, is it agood manager?
Can this person play well?
Did they do a good show?
Are they dedicated?
(15:18):
Are they going to give up orare they going to continue?
How many more songs did theyhave that I haven't listened to?
I'd like to hear everything.
And will they develop and getbetter and better and better?
So that's when the head comesin and you combine the two and
you make your decision.
But I've signed things withoutmy head, just my heart, because
(15:41):
I just believe that if you'resuccessful one out of ten times,
that's really good as an ARperson.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Dedication is really big, isn't it?
I mean, you can find so manytalented people that just don't
get it together right andluckily I haven't worked with
those people.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Luckily I've had people that are really hard
working and you can kind of tellright away and the music helps,
you see that because they pourtheir blood and soul and heart
into their songs and it feelslike they need to do what
they're doing.
I'm married to a musicianamazing guitar player, amazing
writer, producer and if hedoesn't play guitar every day
(16:26):
it's like deep depression setsin.
It's absolutely vital and it'sgot nothing to do with money or
success.
The success comes from thefeeling of having done something
.
Well, you know whether you're afloor sweeper and you've
cleaned the floor properly.
It's funny, people used to askme what I did at clubs and I
(16:49):
would never say I was an A&Rperson.
I would say, oh, I work at abank or something like that.
I just didn't want people tolook at me a different way.
They would find out later butpeople would start fawning and
it was just awful, not somethingyou wanted.
I mean, I didn't want it.
I think some people wanted it,especially men, I will say,
(17:13):
because a lot of men took theirpersonality and who they were
and their importance veryseriously.
They took that.
And women, I don't think theydid it quite as much.
It's like if I lost my job orsomething.
I would, of course, get upsetfor a while, but I wouldn't
(17:33):
think who am I?
I would say I'm the same person.
While but I wouldn't think whoam I?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
I would say I'm the same person, I'm just not
working right now for money inthe music business, but I'm
still an A&R person at heart.
That's what I do.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, the question is really like how did you kind of
single out who was the talentthat you were going to wind up
signing and I think, yeah, Ithink you would really answer
that question.
Uh, and now here's a morecolorful question.
I want to hear some examples.
I've heard you tell somestories um women in executive
roles in the music industry arestill in the minority.
What challenges have you facedas a woman in anr and what
(18:14):
advice would you give to youngwomen aspiring to be in
leadership roles in thiswonderful business?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I would say that from the beginning it was also.
It was almost like men pattingyou on the head Well done.
It was that kind of feeling andthat was from the guys who were
okay.
I think that women in the wellat the start were only allowed
to be publicists or publishers.
There were no A&R women forrecord companies, I think me and
(18:43):
maybe a couple of other women.
That was it.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And you had some women mentors.
I think you've mentioned acouple.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Karen Berg was probably one of my biggest
mentors, but when I went to herand asked her to help me get a
job at a major, she said no.
And I said why not?
And she said because I want youto have a life.
And a lot of women in theindustry in the beginning and
still to this day, not as bad,but if they wanted, if they had
(19:11):
children or were married, thatwas definitely a cross against
them.
It was a negative because menwere allowed to have 12 kids and
they had their pictures allover their desk.
But if you said you werepregnant when you went in for an
interview, they go oh my God,look at the time.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I think you had mentioned that something like
that had happened to you.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
There were a few things that happened.
Well, first of all, I had threementors that were men, because
there weren't a lot of women,and they were men too, of course
.
There was a man, well, dannyCordell, at Shelter, and then
there was Nigel Grange whosigned Sinead and World Party
(19:58):
and the Waterboys and really wasvery supportive.
But my main person, I think whowas the most supportive, was
Seymour Stein.
We met and he basically justtook me under his wing and he
would call me and say what showshave you been to see?
And I trust your tastecompletely.
So I'm going to go see that andthis is how it works.
(20:20):
And A&R a large part of A&R isdoing nothing.
A lot of A&R people want to puttheir stamp on it.
There's ego and a big part islistening to a record and saying
it's perfect, don't touch it.
So he taught me that kind ofthing, very important things.
Nigel taught me that theartists aren't your friends.
(20:43):
They can become friends lateron, but they're not your friends
because your job is sometimesto tell them very difficult
truths and if you're not, you'renot doing your job for them.
So you don't want to hurt theirfeelings.
But I've always been extremelyblunt and to the point of
telling an artist that she hasto fire the drummer, and the
(21:04):
drummer happens to be herboyfriend.
So he taught me how to bestrong and do the job, which is
to help the artists be betterjust help them be better and
also navigate and also defendthem, particularly women,
(21:25):
against the men in the companywho said, oh, she's too
overweight or she's not prettyenough, or let's put her in this
outfit or that outfit.
And I was from the beginning,always defending the women and
pretty much telling the men theywere disgusting.
I was pretty outspoken, butthere were, I mean, a couple of
(21:46):
stories were at Capitol Records.
A long time ago I was calledfor an interview.
I had a job, but they said comeon and talk to us.
I walked in and the guy said tome I'm only interviewing you're
my friend, so I'm going to tellyou we're only interviewing
women because we have tointerview a certain number, but
we're not going to give a job toa woman.
(22:07):
So I basically went up to hisdesk and emptied it out onto the
floor and walked out and neverspoke to him again.
Another time I went in and Iwas pregnant and a lot of women
in the industry forgot to have afamily.
They literally forgot becausethey were so busy working harder
(22:30):
than anyone else.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
There was a greeting card with that picture, I
remember.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So they literally forgot and I was like I'm never
going to be that person, thatpicture I remember.
So they literally forgot and Iwas like I'm never going to be
that person, I'm never going toforget to have a kid.
And you know, it was before Ieven wanted to get married or
have a kid.
I was a wild child, I mean.
I took as many drugs as the men.
I drank them under the table.
I was very badly behaved, Iadmit it.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I didn't know this.
Now I know.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Oh yeah, crazy stories.
But everybody was taking drugsin the industry in the 80s.
I mean, that's just the way itwas.
People were sort of trippingover themselves because they
were on quaaludes and stuff likethat.
It was a very different time.
But even the men that arethosewere my mentors and they were
just wonderful.
(23:18):
A lot of the other men werevery nice to me.
I never had anybody that wasnasty, but they kind of hit that
head tap thing.
It was kind of like well, welldone, good for you Things that
they wouldn't necessarily say toa man.
But it's funny because now it'sbecause of Me Too.
(23:40):
It's gotten to the point where alot of young women are still
trying to find their way in thatmovement and, as with any
movement, that's important thependulum swings way far to the
right in order for it to take on.
And so, for example, when I wasat BMG, a lot of the women
(24:02):
started going to HR, which Itold them never to do, because
HR worked for the label and asmuch as they said they weren't
going to say anything, theywould tell the label you were a
troublemaker and they would sayI went into this man's office
and he told me that the sweaterI was wearing was really nice.
Now, come on, you got to havesome kind of balance there.
(24:26):
I would recommend to women that, unless they feel threatened or
their boss is going after themto someone who's senior than
them, where they really feeluncomfortable, but not because
they're told to feeluncomfortable they should really
think about when to react andwhen not to react.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I don't know if you understand what I'm saying well,
I mean, I guess some of thesethings are minor enough and if
you're going to go and complainabout them, you know depends on
how important yeah, somebodytold me I had a great new
haircut.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'd be like yay, Thank you yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I totally agree.
I think I think the pendulumswung too far.
It's silly.
Someone says you look nicetoday, and you know it certainly
did.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
But and this is kind of personal, but I'll tell you,
with the Me Too movement Ialways said that never happened
to me.
I never was put in a positionlike that.
And then I sat down and Ireally had to think about it and
I was, and it was really hardto admit, but some of these guys
would want to sleep with youand put you in this really tough
position.
That was uncomfortable At thetime.
(25:38):
I was too young to understandor deal with it, but I had to
come to that conclusion and itwas very difficult because I
always said, oh, I was never oneof those people, never happened
to me, but it did.
It happened a few times.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
But fortunately it didn't seem to ever be a
decision you had to make.
Gee, if I want this job, then Ihave to do this.
There was never anything likethat.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Oh no, it was never anything like that, but I was
tough about it.
I mean, if somebody triedsomething on, I would say to
them if you don't stop, I'mgoing to kick you in the balls.
I was pretty tough about it.
People used to say I was like aguy.
I wasn't, I was just a strongwoman, yeah, strong woman.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I've seen pictures.
You're very cute and you'restill very beautiful.
So, yeah, I'm sure you justknew how to handle yourself.
That was the secret.
I know we talked a little bitabout how you find talent and I
had heard some discussions aboutbecause you have a daughter.
I guess she's a bit older now.
She would often she's 22, Ithink that was like five years
(26:43):
ago.
She was often helpful, tellingyou hey, mom, check this out, or
here's a playlist.
Does she still do that or areyou?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
No, we stopped because our taste is.
Well, she had wonderful tastein terms of the older artists.
Like she loved the Kinks sheloved.
Like right now she lovesFontaine, dc, dc, fontaine.
She loves certain artists thatI love and I turn her on to
music, like she didn't know LolaYoung, so I turned her on to
(27:09):
Messy you turned me on to it.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Love that song.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
But a lot of the stuff that she loved, I didn't.
We have very different tastes.
Now there are certain thingsthat definitely cross over, like
there's an artist that I havesigned called Valerie June, who
was one of my favorite artistsever and she loved and loves
Valerie.
She also loves MarianneFaithfull, and Marianne actually
(27:36):
became her godmother.
Speaking of becoming friends,Wow, that's great.
Yeah, it's so sad that she diedlast month.
It was really sad.
I'll send her stuff and she'llsay this is awful.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Do you usually agree with her or not?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
No, I send it because I like it, and then she'll say
it's awful, and part of me willwonder, because she's my
daughter, so I'm like well,maybe she's right, but I still
kind of go with my own instincts.
I love all kinds of music.
You know anywhere, fromBrazilian jazz to Afrobeat, from
(28:21):
Brazilian jazz to Afrobeat to alot of independent, a lot of
singer-songwriters.
Lyrics are very, very importantto me.
They're like half the song andif there's a lyric that takes me
out of the song, even one word,I'm on my own Gone.
Yeah, yeah, everybody'sdifferent, but I see the artist
as you know, a whole.
(28:42):
Whether when it's writing asong it's cliches, drive me
crazy.
There's only so many ways tosay I love you.
I actually teach at a school inEngland called the Songwriting
Academy and one of the classeswas write along a love song
without the word love in it, ormoon, june, blue skies, and I
(29:07):
made a list of the things thatthey could not put in the song
and a couple of the people justwrote the most amazing songs.
They were fantastic.
So there's that kind of thingthat touches me is when somebody
actually says something in adifferent way that you've never
heard before.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That makes sense and similarly, finding still finding
talent.
Like people get excited aboutwhat they see on TikTok and
social media, Do you payattention to that or do you find
much more different ways tolocate talent?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I found Valerie on YouTube and it was just her on a
stool with a guitar singing asong.
So I tracked her down.
I was like, oh my God, I haveto find this woman.
So that's one of the few that Ifound that way.
(30:11):
A lot of them I found becausesomebody, another artist.
I would talk to artists that Irespected and ask them what they
liked or who they'd met or whothey'd seen that maybe was young
and had some talent.
I would always go to the artist.
I trusted them more thananybody else, so a lot of it was
(30:33):
word of mouth.
I didn't really ever care aboutlooking at the top 10 or
looking at who had nowadays themost streams.
I could care less and I fightagainst that and it's doable.
It just is a little moredifficult but it's completely
doable.
(30:54):
It's not rocket science, themusic business, and I think a
lot of people try to make itseem that way so they can make
up a job or get a big salary.
But I'm like I used to sit inmarketing meetings and once I
literally said so I need oranges, I need milk.
I was like this is like we'regoing marketing.
(31:15):
It was so boring.
Everybody would say the samething.
There was no creativity, andthat I find has been a little
less with the indies, but verylittle creativity when it comes
to marketing and selling recordsVery little.
At one point you could buy offthe radio stations and, yes, you
(31:38):
could get a hit.
You could choose an artist andsay I'm going to spend all this
money and it's going to become ahit and those days are kind of
behind us.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I think kind of kind of, kind of yeah, not completely
, no spotify youtube there's.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
There's still some favors going back and forth,
maybe different kinds of favors,but they are going back and
forth.
It's not spoken about as much.
I actually kind of miss thedays when you could say this
person's amazing, let's makesure everybody hears them.
I kind of miss that because nowit's such a toss-up and it's so
difficult for the artist to beheard.
(32:18):
I think kids are getting sickto death of Spotify.
Right, I hear it all the timeTikTok.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I mean I was kind of happy when TikTok was going to
go away because I know peoplespend way too much time on
content and they're just notspending the time on the writing
.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It's a lot of visual now, which I understand.
I mean, it's a generation ofpeople that are used to visual,
so the two combine, and so I doget that, because there is that
star quality and you can'tcreate it.
You either have it or you don't.
And that's another piece.
(32:55):
That's important to me is whensomeone walks in a room and you
just feel this thing coming off,this vibe coming off of them,
where you're like who is thatit's really true?
So I do get it, and that's theother part that I forgot to tell
you.
That is important to me.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
The special feeling about them.
People just have that.
When I first saw Jeff Buckleyplay at Sinead, it was like he
was washing the dishes and thatwas this tiny little club where
you could get up and sing if youheard about it, or you just go
wash the dishes or just hang out.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I used to sing there back in the day.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
There you go.
So you know someone like Jeff.
I was working at Imago, whichwas Terry Ellis's label, and I
flew Jeff in from Los Angeles.
I bought him a guitar for whenhe was in New York and I brought
him in and I he was performingwith a band called Gods and
Monsters and after the show Isaid to him you know, that's not
(34:02):
the band for you and you reallyneed to be.
You are the star, you areobviously the person, and Gods
and Monsters had a guitar playerthat just played all over his
voice and it just was awful.
So he came to the office and Iintroduced him to Terry Ellis
(34:24):
and I said I really wanna signthis kid.
And Terry Ellis, after themeeting, said to me he has no
charisma.
And I was like are you out ofyour?
Am I not aware?
I was like are you out of your?
mind.
I mean, that's the kind ofpeople that were I had to work
with sometimes and it happens.
It happens several times.
(34:44):
I brought the cranberries inand Terry again flew to Ireland
to see them play in Dublin andhe said that they all looked
like potato heads, which is aBritish thing to say and it's
extremely rude.
And he turned that they alllooked like potato heads, which
is a British thing to say, it'sextremely rude.
And he turned them down.
So I took them to Denny Cordell, who is at Island, who was one
(35:06):
of my mentors from the beginning, and I gave it to him and said
will you please sign this?
And he listened to the half ofthe first verse and said they're
in and signed verse and saidthey're in and signed.
So I would bring things like Isaid to other people because
that's the way it is.
I love artists and I love music, not about me.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
The most important thing was to make sure it got
heard.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, I mean a lot of people, just the men, and I
keep saying the men because itwas mainly men and that also
connects to you.
Know, I work in a hospital orthis.
When people would ask me who Iwas, they, uh, they wanted to be
the stars, and I feel like thejob of any an art person is to
(35:50):
be in the background, not in theforeground.
The star is the, the, theartist is the artist, and you're
just there to help them inevery way that you can as the
industry changes.
To me it doesn't really changeat all.
I think that the numbers gamenow you don't shop records
(36:11):
anymore the artist has tosomehow figure out how to get
their numbers up, depending onwho they are.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
The numbers game used to be signing a lot of people
and see what sticks.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Now the numbers game is come in with numbers or we're
not even gonna look at youreally I don't play that game
and I never have not with anyartists that I've signed, even
recently, never or any artiststhat I work with.
So that's not something that Ifind will last.
(36:43):
It's something that very oftenis just pushed by the label
pushed up.
And then there are theseamazing artists that just go
viral and like a Lizzie McAlpine, those kinds of artists and
like a Lizzie McAlpine, thosekinds of artists you know that
means the music is really goodand you pay attention to them,
but the numbers don't meananything and they also are
(37:08):
disgraceful because the artistsget paid nothing.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Nothing For sure.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
So it's a game that when I work with an artist now I
try to help them understand howto work that, but it's just a
necessity.
It's not something that I findin the least bit interesting or
important, and I feel like it'schanging.
(37:34):
Everything goes round and roundand round, and because fans
don't really care and there'stoo much out there and they're
not happy with Spotify anymoreand they're figuring out that
the artists aren't getting paid,I feel like change is coming.
But the main thing is, whateverit is whether it's numbers,
(37:55):
it's Spotify, it's TikTok, it'sYouTube it's about creativity in
selling the record, not justmaking the record.
And I don't see.
I talked to a lot of differentmarketing companies and people
who work with streams and socialmedia.
They all say the same thingit's not interesting, it's not.
(38:17):
Like I said, it's not rocketscience and there's no
creativity there.
There's nothing like, hey,let's try this, this has never
been done before and somebodywill say, oh no, no, we can't do
that.
Or there's this thing calledthe waterfall effect, where you
put out a song and it's not yourbest song, and then you put out
(38:39):
another song which isn't yourbest song and then you put out
the third song with the album.
That's the rule.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
And then it goes down in a waterfall, hopefully, and
you get numbers that way.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Why is that the rule?
And secondly, why would you notput your best song out first?
Why?
I mean, if I go and do go toSpotify because somebody told me
to go listen to something andit's not the best song, it's
just good, not brilliant, I'mnot going to go back and listen
to any more.
So I never understood that.
(39:11):
So I fight against that.
And when it comes to marketing,I'm always telling people to
put their best song out first.
Comes to marketing, I'm alwaystelling people to put their best
song out first and then theirnext.
You know, all the songs shouldbe fantastic.
That's the goal.
You shouldn't have filler.
Right there should be no filler.
And as far as records, you know, they don't really mean
(39:32):
anything anymore, except thatpeople love to buy vinyl and I
love vinyl.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
It's consecutive singles being put out.
Yeah, exactly, except forsomeone like Beyonce who can put
out an album Exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
But it just makes no sense to me not to put your best
foot forward.
It makes no sense at all.
So I don't believe in thewaterfall and I won't.
And I'll tell the artists thatand if they trust me, they'll go
along with what I'm tellingthem.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah, and to that end , I guess, in a way, that there
are a lot more artists arestaying independent, and I know
you're now with Big EarsConsultancy.
You are independent and doingit your own way and how does
that what your experience in thepast with majors compare with
the freedom that you have now,and what are the pros and cons?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
It's wonderful I get to work with artists when
they're not quite there, but youcan see the spark and you can
help them in an A&R way.
And there's no A&R left atlabels.
It's researchers.
If you're lucky, they'll listento the record.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Right, they're like social media, researchers, in
other words.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
There's no such thing as A&R.
There's no such thing ashelping somebody make a record,
and the labels think thatartists don't want A&R.
Now, when I started Big EarsMusic Consultancy, I was testing
it out as well because I trulybelieved artists still wanted
that help, and I was right.
These young artists really wanthelp.
(41:10):
They want help with their songs, they want help to make them
better, they want comments, theywant help with who might be the
right producer or how to make arecord when you don't have a
lot of money.
They want all of this and theydon't want to be on a major.
The only reason they would goto a major is for the money,
(41:32):
because they can't afford tohire somebody to work.
Spotify and YouTube and allthose things and eventually, if
they're a pop singer, radio.
So when it comes to that, Ijust advised this artist that
they needed to break throughEngland, because I have partners
in England now.
(41:53):
So the radio there is regionaland it's not as expensive.
So the radio there is regionaland it's not as expensive and
you can actually get through asan independent artist without a
lot of money.
You can break there.
The press still means more.
There's still paper press.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
You're so creative, absolutely.
It's such a creative placeTrying to think of other things.
I know you were told it reallyis amusing that you were
Madonna's roommate.
You can just tell us brieflyabout that.
I'm sure everyone will get akick out of that.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
I was her roommate when I was at Z Records.
I signed a band calledBreakfast Club, which was Steve
Bray, and he wrote her firstsongs like Lucky Star.
It was sort of him andJellybean Benitez who wrote the
songs and he was dating Madonnaand she just moved from Detroit
and I had an apartment reallyfunky apartment, my first
(42:43):
apartment in the city and I hada spare room and he asked if she
could move in.
So she moved in and she was theworst roommate.
I mean she would for me anyway.
Anyway, she would throw out thefood from the refrigerator that
was mine because it wasn'thealth food.
She would get up in the morningat like seven, six o'clock and
(43:06):
start exercising and singingsongs really loud with that bow
in her hair.
And finally she becamesuccessful and got another place
, thank God.
But she was a nice girl.
I mean she was very nice, butshe just drove me mad.
She was not the best roommate.
(43:28):
That's the story.
I mean it's a very simple story, but I'll tell you.
Did I tell you the story ofMarianne Faithfull?
Speaker 3 (43:35):
No, you didn't tell me that story.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
After I worked at Shelter Records, this record
Broken English had come out andI fell in love with the album.
Absolutely did not stop playing.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
And this is the beginning of your career, right.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yes, and I met the producer of Broken English, mark
Miller, monday and I managed toget Marianne's address from him
in London.
I flew to London, I got anapartment, just like sharing
with these girls that I didn'tknow.
I biked over from Battersea toChelsea, knocked on Marianne's
(44:15):
door, didn't know her, never mether and I said hi, my name's
Kate, I want to work for you,and this is in her first book
actually.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Those were the days, huh.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
She said go away, read Madame Bovary, liaison
Dangereuse Nana, and then comeback.
So I biked back off toBattersea and read the books and
knocked on her door and shesaid did you read them?
And I said yes and she saidwell, then you're moving in,
(44:49):
you're working for me.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
And how long did you do that for?
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Three years I was living with her.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
You lived with her.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, with her husband, ben Briarley, and I was
like her assistant manager sortof.
She didn't have a manager, so Iwas sort of playing that part.
That's great.
And then many, many, many yearslater she came to my apartment
(45:18):
in New York City and she saidcan I stay for a couple of weeks
?
I'm writing my book.
So this guy, david, who waswriting the book, would come
over every day and tape her andthey would talk and there were
notes everywhere and after threeweeks she started to paint the
guest room pink and I went, oh,this isn't three weeks.
(45:40):
She started to paint the guestroom pink and I went oh, this
isn't three weeks.
Three years later she was stillliving with me and I would come
home from work.
I was at V2.
No, I was at Imago.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
But this was in New York or this was in London In.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
New York.
I mean, it was years later.
It came very close and after Iwould come home from work and
she would be in her pajamas andCheers would be on TV and she
would say, how was work darling?
And I'd be like, oh, it wasfantastic.
And she would I made you achicken, a roast chicken, let's
(46:19):
go and sit and watch Cheers.
It was like my wife, my malewife, female husband or whatever
you want to say.
It was the most hystericalrelationship, but that's how it
started and nowadays I don'tthink that happens that often,
where an A&R person would go andjust knock on someone's door
(46:41):
because they were in love withthe music, they would call the
lawyer, they would call themanager.
That's not how I did it.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah, different world .
Speaker 2 (46:51):
I have been so incredibly lucky in finding such
amazing music.
I mean, right now I am workingwith such good artists, so I'm
doing the A&R for them, but I'malso walking them through the
better marketing companies thatdon't cost as much and the
(47:11):
people that I trust the press,people putting a team together
for them based on what they canafford, and sometimes, when they
can't afford anything, we'llfigure out a way to make it work
anyway.
And I actually just I've beenworking with an artist for three
(47:32):
and a half years and I promisedmyself I would never manage
anybody and I'm going to managethis girl with this guy in
England.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
Can you share a name, or is it too early?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Well, you won't see anything, but you will
eventually.
Her name is Amia, and then justthe letter K, and she's this
22-year incredible writer singer.
She has that it factor and sheknows exactly who she is.
(48:05):
She knows how to presentherself, she's incredibly smart
and she was in theater, sotherefore the stage is something
that is not new to her at all,but she has to put a band
together for this record so shein the uk or is she in the
states?
she's in chicago, but, um, I'vejust found some amazing artists
(48:30):
and also artists that are known,that um have called me through,
that have called me throughreferrals and things like that.
So they just need me to sort ofbe I suppose you would call it
the project manager or themanager who actually gets paid,
(48:51):
and I'm the one who talks to allthe other people to make sure
that they're all on the samepage, that they're doing the
right job, that kind of thingwhich has made me which I love,
because I've had to learn beyondA&R how to work the system, and
it's called working the systemto me.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
You're such an incredible resource.
You've got all this amazingknowledge.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Well, it's fantastic because I'm learning every day
and I get bored very easily.
So to be able to learnsomething at my age still every
day and work with people intheir 20s is such a gift.
I mean, I just love it and I'mnever gonna stop.
(49:45):
I'm just not.
It's the same as my husband'sguitar if I can't find new music
and get excited every now andthen.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
What else are we gonna do?
Right, we've, we've got to dowhat we do.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Yeah, exactly.
So that's sort of been myexperience and I would say to
any young person, young womanwho wants to get into this
business, they have to have thatpassion, and if they're only
doing it because they think it'sglamorous, it is not glamorous,
it's hard work.
(50:22):
The men are still in charge.
It's a boys club.
Ever since Me Too, it's almostbecome more difficult because
the boys club wants to stay theboys club.
So they're scared to hire womenbecause they don't want to get
sued and they don't know whenthat's going to happen.
So to a certain degree it'sbackfired.
It's come back now.
(50:42):
It's come back around, but fora few years they were backfired
and women were not getting hired.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
So you feel that they are getting hired now?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
A little bit more, but A&R is still missing women,
and I also believe that womenand men listen to music
differently and it's reallyimportant to have women
listening with their ears andmen listening with their ears.
I know, for me it's lyrics,it's the base.
(51:15):
I want to feel it in my stomachand with a lot of guys and I'm
generalizing, but it's, oh myGod, that drum sound.
How did you?
get it, or a guitar or this orthat, and I'm more focused on
the the person in front, rightLyrics and musically I just want
(51:39):
to walk out and go.
What a great band Like, meaning, to a certain degree, that they
didn't get in the way.
Almost like with a movie themusic is there to improve the
film.
The film is not there toimprove the music.
I mean, I still know A&R peoplewho've been doing this for
(52:02):
years and they will have analbum finished and they will
actually say you need to work tothe sync department, you need
to work the first track, and thesync department politely says
actually we give the whole albumto the supervisors and they
(52:27):
choose the track that works withthe scene if you're lucky.
But we're not working a single,unless, of course, something
comes along where it actuallyworks.
I can't believe that A&R peoplestill don't understand that Not
all of them, but quite a few andthe marketing people, which is
(52:49):
the other thing, which is thatA&R people aren't, I don't think
, involved enough in themarketing meetings at the major
labels.
They're the people that knowthe artist the best.
They're the ones who can say no, no, he or she wouldn't do that
, they wouldn't do thatinterview or they wouldn't.
No, they won't put that singleout.
(53:10):
That's not what they wanna do.
This is what they wanna do andA&R people are losing even more
power.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
They really are, because it's all about the
marketing.
It's not about the artist.
It's about what's going to sellor how they can sell.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Also immediate gratification, like a single
that works, not a career andeverybody's going to get.
People are going to get introuble.
They're really going to get introuble because they're going to
run out of artists and newartists.
And you just watch the Grammysand it's the same people over
(53:46):
and over and over and over.
I think it's less so in Englandand certain other territories,
and we ignore the rest of theworld, as if our music is the
most important, and I just don'tbelieve that artists are given
what they deserve, the chancethat they deserve, so they have
(54:08):
to do it themselves, and that'sfine with me, because then they
make all the money.
And there's certain people thatI would actually give a shout
out to, like Tim at Partisan.
Tim is incredible.
He's the head of the company,but he's also the head of A&R,
(54:30):
which is the only way it canreally work, because he can push
.
His name is Tim Putnam and hecan push what he believes in,
which it used to be like ArnettErdogan and all those people
were the head of A&R producersand also head of the company, so
it worked out really well.
Now, honestly, it's justeventually.
(54:51):
I think it's going to go to AIin terms of the research.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
I know we didn't talk about that too much.
It's hard to cover everything,but is there anything that you
would like to say that I didn'tcover?
Any questions I didn't ask.
I know we didn't talk enoughabout your big years, but we did
a bit in that you found somegreat artists.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
I found some great artists.
I'm helping them grow.
I'm doing exactly what I wasfrustrated by in the end at the
labels, when they were allbuying up people's catalogs, and
I was completely frustrated themore they talked about numbers
and I just wanted to make surethat I was correct.
(55:34):
It was taking a chance, but Iwanted to go back to the artist.
I wanted to go back to thembeing the center of our business
.
So that's why I started it andI wasn't sure if it was going to
work or not, and it's taken twoto three years, but it's
working.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Sounds great, the amount we've talked about it.
I'm just so excited to see whathappens with it and it sounds
like a lot of fun and you can doit in your own way, in your own
time.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
And we're creative.
I'm on the phone with theartist going, hey, what about
this?
And they're like that sucks.
And I'm like, or they'll saywhat about this?
And I'm like that's a terribleidea.
But we're connected andcommunicating and it's really
fun.
We're not dealing with anybodyin a label that is stopping us,
(56:23):
it's just go, go, go, which ismagical.
And the only the only otherstory I'll tell you is when Moby
became enormously successfulwith play.
I remember going out to clubsor dinners and it didn't happen
all the time because I figuredit out the first time it
(56:43):
happened.
But somebody came up to me andsaid congratulations, that's all
they said.
And I was like for what?
I literally didn't understand.
I was like, did they think Ijust had a kid or is it my
birthday?
And they were talking aboutMoby being a success and I
literally could not.
(57:04):
I couldn't connect the two.
It just wasn't the way.
I thought it was like, why?
Why are you congratulating me?
You should be congratulatinghim.
It just, you know, once againbeing in the background.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
That's terrific.
It's been so interestingtalking to you and I really
appreciate your coming on mypodcast and I can't wait to
finally air it and and let theworld hear your cool stories.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
Thank you so much for having me, and it's fun to
really think about it, reallythink about what you're doing
and why, and so I reallyappreciate it.
And you know, if anybody, ifany women, have any questions,
they can go to my site and I'llanswer them.
Speaker 3 (57:48):
I appreciate that.
Okay, alrighty, thanks so muchTake care, thanks, bye.
She creates noise.
I'd like to thank today'ssponsor, heard City, the premier
audio post-production companyservicing the advertising,
(58:09):
motion picture and televisionindustries right here in NYC.
I'd also like to thank Antelloaka XON for singing the she
Creates Noise theme that I wrote.
Thanks for listening to sheCreates Noise.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe, rate and
share.
I want to thank the team hereBlair Reilly, jelena Stavanovic,
(58:31):
emily Wilson and the Master ofEngineering and Grammy-winning
Cooper Anderson.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
We'll see you next time.
She Creates Noise.
She creates noise, she createsnoise.
She creates noise.
We hear her voice.
She creates noise.
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