April 2, 2025 • 48 mins
What separates a manager who merely assigns tasks from a leader who cultivates autonomous, confident problem-solvers? Michael Monroe, a Christian strategist, marketer, and digital innovation expert, joins us to unpack the crucial transitions from managing to leading to stewarding.
Drawing from his extensive experience building remote teams since 2009, Monroe articulates the painful but necessary "leadership crucible" that shapes effective leaders. Having navigated his own professional transformation from Vector Marketing sales leader to digital strategist, he shares how transferable skills and coaching relationships made these transitions possible.
The heart of our conversation centers on a revolutionary framework for delegation that transforms dependent team members into autonomous leaders. Monroe outlines five distinct levels of delegation that progress from solving others' problems to empowering them with complete ownership. This methodical approach addresses why many leaders struggle to develop talent—they skip crucial developmental stages or remain stuck in problem-solving mode rather than cultivating problem-solvers.
Perhaps most valuably, Monroe addresses the heartbreak many leaders experience when developing talent only to watch them leave. Rather than viewing this as failure, he reframes it as successful stewardship and offers practical strategies like "stay interviews" and clearly defined career pathways to transform painful departures into successful transitions and future collaborations.
Whether you're leading a remote team, transitioning to a new leadership role, or working to develop future leaders within your organization, this conversation provides actionable insights to help you climb higher in your leadership journey. Subscribe now and join us for part two of our interview with Michael Monroe in our next episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
anytime I'm making a leap from good at this to new
thing with a bigger opportunity.
I've always, I've always uh,I've always had a coach, the
right, who's bring the house.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, like they will solve the problems you're
listening to the sherpaleadership podcast your guide to
climbing higher in life andleadership.
I'm reed moore and alongsidechase williams, we're listening
to the Sherpa Leadership Podcastyour guide to climbing higher
in life and leadership.
I'm Reed Moore and alongsideChase Williams, we're here to
help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead
with greater clarity and purpose.
All right, everybody, welcomeback to the Sherpa Leadership
(00:45):
Podcast.
I'm your host, reed Moore,alongside my good friend and
co-host, chase Williams.
As always, we are here to helpyou climb higher in life and
leadership.
Our job here is to give you thetools and the practical
insights from amazing people tobe able to help you move forward
in your life, have breakthroughand really be able to carry the
weight of leadership much, mucheasier.
(01:06):
So we're here today with a goodfriend of ours, a seasoned
leader that we are reallyexcited to be able to bring to
you.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Who we have here Mr Michael Monroe, and I'm going to
do a little intro here for Mike.
But Mike Monroe is a Christianstrategist, marketer, trainer
and relentless innovator.
His work's been published inSuccess, forbes, fast Company,
killer Startups and CEO World.
Michael's the digital strategymanager for Vector Marketing,
the direct sales arm ofCo-Cutlery, an American-made
(01:35):
product that recently celebratedits 75th anniversary Love it.
He's also a thought leader atGiftology, north America's
number one relationship agency.
Giftology's mission is to fastforward relationships to solve
business problems.
I first met Mike as part of amen's group that we put together
at our church, and I've come tolove not only his brilliance
(01:58):
but just his willingness toshare it with others.
He's certainly been aninspiration to me.
I get to learn to be a betterleader and a better innovator
from Mr Mike Monroe.
So glad to have you here today,man.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Thanks.
That's kind of ironic, by theway, because the last time we
did coffee it was me recordingyou which would insinuate that I
was the one doing all thelearning.
So you know, hopefully Itouched something there.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Hopefully it's a little back and forth, but it's
great to have you here today.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Thank, it's great to have you here today.
Thank you.
Well, and it's one of the bestthings about you is you are one
of the smartest people I know,and part of that is the fact
that you are just a relentlesslearner and we want to dig into
that and all the other thingsthat makes you what you really
are, which is a truly successfulleader.
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, you once called me I brag about this you once
called me when you introduced meat one point at our men's group
.
You called me mentallyaggressive.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yes, yeah, which was my favorite description of all
time, because it actually madehyper intellectualism sound
masculine and tough and cool,and so it's like you know it'd
be a little violent like, yeah,like take that math team Right.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So, so, thank you for that.
So, yeah, I, uh, I'm excited.
Where do we want to?
Where do we want to go?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So let's start with, just give us a lay of the land
of who you are.
You know you're a seasonedleader.
You're somebody who you knowcarries the weight of leadership
responsibility not just for,you know, being on stage or a
performance, but you have toshow up day in and day out and
get the job done and inspirepeople to do that.
So where do you come from?
And just walk us through yourcareer up to this point.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Let me answer the what do you do question, right,
so the what do I do question.
I have been work from homesince 2009.
Okay, like, way before it wascool, way before it was,
everybody else was doing it.
And it's incredible when youwork from home because,
obviously, as we've allexperienced um, you know it's
1099s.
(03:48):
You guys got started in yourreal estate background.
I was 1099 at Cutco as a 19year old college kid, like doing
in-home presentations, rope,leather, penny, I'm sure people
have.
I mean, you guys both own Cutco, so so you get that.
But um, so, so from 2009,.
Um, then the second piece ofthis is I run and I have a team
(04:09):
of seven direct reports.
My org chart has over 30 peoplefull timer, salaried, part
timers, 1099s and we're all workfrom home too.
Ok, so I think that's animportant point because, you
know, certainly in modernenvironment, there's been a
certain kind of narrative of, ofyou know, hey, work from home
(04:30):
Is it for everybody?
Some people need the in-officeenvironment and I absolutely
think there's pros and cons.
But my point of bringing it upfor leadership podcast is that,
like I have been duplicatable inthat regards, it's a big deal,
I think so.
I think so because it's notlike okay, I've hired 70 people
and 30 of them made it.
(04:51):
It is our average stickingpoint.
Our average retention is reallyreally good.
So, you know, we've learnedsome things, oftentimes in the
School of Hard Knocks and Trialand Error, about how to lead
remotely and how to guide anddirect and really create people
that are autonomous, which Ithink would be kind of my third
(05:11):
bragging point in terms of, like, you know, why should I listen
to anything you say?
And, uh, I I cynically.
I think the answer is youshouldn't.
I think right and like, unlessit really makes sense and
resonates.
Yeah, mentioned what did yousay?
Thought leader Was that?
the was that the?
I mean those two words, man,those, those words make me vomit
(05:32):
.
Maybe we'll get into that alittle bit, but but but yeah.
So I would say in my schedule Ihave probably 66% autonomy of
the operations I do or theprojects I work on, which means
with any three things that I doon you know, an eight or nine or
(05:54):
even a 10 hour basis on busyday and busy right, it's because
I chose two out of three ofthose things and I've learned
about myself.
I can be an operator, I can bea guy who goes in there and runs
the machine, but but reallywhere I work like best is is in
the space of like go in there,try a thing, test a thing, make
(06:16):
a thing, make an MVP, a minimumviable product and then bring
people alongside, teach them tounderstand it, teach them to run
it, help them optimize it sothey can take the thing and make
it way you know, up into theright, better than better than I
can do, right, yeah, um, andthat's really kind of the last
thing I'd say if you were to,you know, be on resume would be
(06:37):
um, I have lived kind of theselast 15 years.
Uh, very fortunately last 15years, very fortunately, very
providentially, very like not inmy own doing, but a lifestyle
and a quality of life that Iwould call incrementally and
iteratively better.
(07:02):
I once heard the analogy.
I love this analogy.
They said if you're a goodinvestor, your stock portfolio,
your line of like you know how'sit going looks like a guy or a
gal on an escalator using ayo-yo, where it's like, you know
you have ups, you have downs,but in general you're trending
up and to the right, and so Ithink that would be a pretty
(07:24):
good, uh holistic, analogy of ofmy life as a professional,
personal, uh health, uh, youmentioned you know where'd I
come from.
Uh, we've all had, we've allhad those seasons of our career
Like what decade of it was yourswhere you like you're like like
I'm just gonna give up thisdecade to learn the craft.
(07:46):
What was that?
What was that for?
you, it was my 30s, your 30s,yeah, your 30s.
Aren't you still in your 30s?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
no, unfortunately I'm getting invited back what uh uh
.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
I bet you were younger.
What was your decade?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
uh, late, late 20s into my mid 30s was my crucible,
wow yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, so I was, I was , mine, was like my 20s, that
was my like.
I am going to, I am going tosacrifice this decade to, to,
you know, the altar of, oflearning how to add marketplace
value.
Right, and that was really the.
Would you wear the crucible?
Yes, right, and that was reallythe.
(08:26):
Would you wear the crucible?
Yes, yeah, that's a.
That's a better, betterdescription I could ever, better
description I could ever giveit.
And, of course, what comes outof that is is some evidence of,
like, I know who I am, uh, Iknow who I'm not Sure Right,
which is, in many cases, like,probably the most important.
I know where my gaps are.
You know, if we're really lucky, maybe we, you know, meet
(08:47):
somebody who says I do coverthose, cover those gaps, and I'm
fortunate to have you know that, with my, with my lovely bride,
kaylee of my gosh 12 years dude, amazing, yeah, so, uh, that is
my, I would say, leadership.
I'd say that's my leadershipresume.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So let me riff off of this kind of this idea, of the
kind of the crucible.
And the other thing that piquedmy interest is is we I have a
heart for and we have a heartfor people who are what we call
organizational leadership.
Right, it's what we do in ourfamilies, it's what we do in
business, and that is that youfundamentally can't push a
button on a microwave and getpopcorn, like you're sitting
(09:28):
there, you're in front of thegrill for 24 hours or you're in
front of the crock pot, likeresults are slow, incremental
over time, which requiresself-leadership and consistency.
And maybe the place that startsis this idea of if you actually
want to lead at a high level,you have to be able to get
individual results.
You have to actually be able tomove the needle, and then
(09:50):
somehow you have to figure outhow to transition from I'm a
producer, I move the needle to Ican help other people move the
needle in a way that I nevercould by myself.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What's the name of that law?
There was that law right whenpeople are promoted.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Oh, the Peter Principle.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, what's that?
How does that go?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
People are promoted To the highest level of
incompetence.
Yes, yeah, so they succeed atsomething.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
They get promoted to something that they're, in
essence, incompetent at, andthen there's a real risk in
doing that I can't even describehow many times I've seen
organizations make that mistake,with one with one massive
exception, I would say, beingCutco, because Cutco is
phenomenal at this Meaningmeaning.
The motto that I heard, whichis a lesser version of the Peter
(10:36):
principle, is if you want totank sales in your organization,
take your number one rep andmake them the sales manager.
Take your number one rep andmake them the sales manager.
Right, like literally the worstpossible thing you could do,
because in many cases, like uh,uh, what got you there won't
take you there, sure?
Um, we see this in the businesscommunity all the time, with
(10:57):
with, you've got the, you've gotthe startup founder, who
oftentimes is a very visionary,charismatic, gregarious
personality, and then people arelike well, travis Kalanick,
former Cutco rep, by the way,travis Kalanick, you can't,
you're not the person we need totake Uber to here, so we're
(11:19):
going to remove you, you know,and then we're going to put
somebody else in there.
I mean the amount oforganizations that have
experienced that are countlessnow.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, so it's so tempting, right, because you
look at something, you seeperformance, right, and you
don't necessarily put, you don'tcatalog that correctly.
And so you see performance andso you want to reward it.
Or even they raise their handand say, hey, I want to do
something else.
How did you navigate that inyour leadership journey?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, so fantastic question, because another way of
wording it is when you do goodenough to create a comfort zone,
how do you then step into thenew thing and and create mastery
and dominance in that newcomfort zone?
(12:05):
Yeah, and it makes me thinkabout the concept of
transferable skills.
Okay, so in every little thingwe do, I mean, there's always
stuff we're picking up Like,there's stuff we're rehearsing
(12:26):
or practicing, and presumablywhat's the saying?
Practice makes perfect.
Yeah, which you guys know isn'ttrue.
What practice makes is practicemakes permanent.
Yes, yeah, and so I would sayyou could probably look at every
success or failure I've had andtaking that leap to the next
thing and and saying, okay,between here and here, there was
(12:52):
a coach that helped maintainand transfer the confidence and
believability of of these skillsinto the next thing, while
simultaneously pointing out themassive, massive, massive gaps
that I had going to the newthing.
So a perfect example of thiswould be I was an okay, cutco
(13:16):
rep.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I was an okay Cutco rep.
I mean, the thing that I didwas I worked really, really,
really hard and you know, 19, 20years old at the time like it's
easy to do.
And so I get my opportunity torun a summertime office in
Bangor, maine.
Okay, either of you guys beento Maine before?
(13:39):
No, okay, I've been to Maine.
Sounds pretty, it's gorgeous,but I want you to go to the
pretty part of Maine, like theaffluent southern Maine area,
and I want you to drive an hourand a half.
You come to the capital,augusta, and I want you to drive
another hour and a half.
Now you're in Bangor, bangor,bangor, you can drive six more
(14:02):
hours to go to kid in my family,to go to college.
So, you know, put a lot ofpressure on myself on this knife
job thing, right.
So I'm in Bangor, maine, andthings are not going well.
And when I say they're notgoing well when you run, I mean
it's not quite the franchisemodel.
(14:23):
Like Cutco supports theirbranch and district managers
financially in just ridiculousways.
But there is an element of likeeventually money runs out,
right, like the money I hadsaved up.
And I'll never forget my coachat the time, division manager,
ryan Trembler, and you guys knowthat in sales one of the most
(14:45):
important qualities is optimism,right Like yeah, whether you
feel like it or not.
Whether you feel like it or not,and in fact, this is why.
This is why, you know, if Iever meet a professional who's
admittedly and outwardly like,oh, I'm ADD, I'm like, well, you
better be in sales becausethat's one of the biggest
superpowers you can have, right,short celebrations, quick
(15:08):
recoveries, like if you cannotforget or not remember the bad
things, it's just like okay somewill, some won't right, yeah,
like the worst thing you can bein sports or in sales is an
overthinker, cerebral right Likesuper smart.
Right Like in sales is anoverthinker, cerebral right,
like super smart.
(15:28):
Right, like like, oh my gosh,why I'll never get, because you
can literally talk your way outof confidence.
Well, that's exactly what I didin my little branch office in
bangor maine.
I couldn't even afford anoffice in bangor maine.
I was in orno, maine, which waslike 25 minutes north.
It was on main street, I wasnext to a subway and and it was
like this vertical office thelandlord had mercy on, like a 20
year old kid I was able to toname drop um, uh, uh, uh.
(15:52):
My district manager had beenlike sorority sisters with a
friend of a friend who thelandlord's daughter.
So this was like this was purecharity, that he was doing this
for me, right, and it was.
I mean, it was sucking.
And so Ryan Tremblay calls meup.
He's like how's it going?
And I proceed to communicate tohim in painstaking detail of
how it is not going well and Idon't remember exactly what I
(16:14):
said, because I'm sure it wasthis elaborate like excuse and
this and that, and I wasprobably blaming the territory
or the people that were walkingin the door, the leads are weak.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, Coffee's
for closers.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, it's like no dude.
It's the leads, it's not me.
Yeah.
I am great, yeah, yeah yeah,like, yeah, it's fantastic, it
is fantastic.
And, ryan, I'll never forgetthis.
He goes, huh was how heresponded.
He's like huh.
He's like, where's theoptimistic Mike Monroe that I'm
(16:54):
so well acquainted with?
Right, we had had enoughhistory where, right, kind of
remind me, hold up the mirror, Igo, he's in there somewhere,
right, but he's like, well, letme put it to you this way and
what he proceeded to do was, uh,uh, communicate a narrative,
with every single point that hehad or that I had given him, as
(17:16):
to why I can't to foretell andcreate this narrative of why
this was gonna be like the bestthing and the best reason ever,
of why this happened, like this,and here's why that's good, and
this, and here's why that'sgood, and this, and here's why
that's good and this, and here'swhy that's good.
And then he delivered thepunchline of the whole thing.
It was this moment of silenceand I'm like, whoa, and he goes,
(17:38):
isn't more?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
fun to think like that.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Oh wow, he's like all right, dude, I got to go like
go do something, and, by the way, he was probably like he could
have been taking a dump for allI know, like walk in between,
like his office was poppingdoing like a hundred thousand
dollar weeks, which is reallygood, and I was, you know, a
hundred dollars and change,right, not a hundred thousand, a
hundred dollars and change,which is which is not a lot.
But that was such a profoundexperience for me that became
one of the first moments where,you know, before I had a cell
(18:08):
phone, before I had any of thesethings, I wrote that down.
Isn't it more fun to think likethat?
And it was one of the firstpost-it notes that I put up and
I read that every day.
And it was a reminder that oneof the transferable skills that
Vector and Cutco taught me was,whether you think you can or you
can't, you're right, see thepositive in every situation.
(18:30):
And I'd been so good about thatas a sales representative and
now, here I was, I'd kind offorgotten that and sometimes in
those moments like it reallyhelps to have that coach to
remind you of that Sure, andthen, once I was repaired
mentally, now he can take me toa you of that, sure, and then,
once I was repaired mentally,now he can take me to a place of
like, okay, let's talk aboutwhy you're sucking at this
(18:51):
particular function of theinterview.
Like I was finally in a place Icould receive, in a place I
could listen and and sometimes,you know, heavy is the head that
wears the crown right like,like I love.
Being a Northeast guy, I'm ahuge Boston sports fan.
So I saw, I saw an interviewwith Joe Mazzulla, the head
coach of the Boston Celtics, andif you're not, if anybody in
(19:12):
your audience isn't an NBA fan,the idea is, on the Boston
Celtics number one guy, jasonTatum, like super, all-star,
super stud, and this guy ismercilessly scrutinized prior to
this last year because it'slike you'll never be a Celtic
great if you can't win achampionship.
You get so far you disappear inbig games.
Why aren't the three-pointersconnecting when it matters most?
(19:34):
Like just constant, constant,like grading and gritting and
and I loved it because, um, inthe documentary they were, they
were.
You could hear the interview.
He goes.
You know, how do you feel aboutthe fact Coach Joe right, got
to have the coach, got to askthe coach?
How do you feel about the factthat Jason Tatum has to endure
(19:58):
these horrifically unfair doublestandards.
And Missoula goes, he gets to.
He gets to.
This is what he wants, likethis is what he signed up for.
He signed up for hard, like hesigned up.
If you want to be one of thegreatest, you have to be willing
to do that and pay the price ofgreatness.
And so I think, going back toyour original question of how
(20:22):
does somebody make the leap fromI'm good at this, now I go here
.
I mean, on one hand, it's justthe stubbornness to get through
the suck yeah right the crucibleyeah, the crucible, like like
you probably have a similarstory both you guys probably
have a similar story like whowas the ryan trembler in your
life when you guys were goingthrough the ish?
Like who was that?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
bob spooner.
Yeah, yeah, I'm a guy namedCody Right, like it's just.
You know, the guy who's thereand he listens, listens with
love, but at the same time it'slike I love you and I'm not
willing to allow you to stayhere.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I love you and I'm not allowing you to stay here.
Yeah, and that is that.
Bob too, bob Spooner.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, I was complaining about my boss and he
was a peer to my boss and hefinally just told me.
He said, chase, she's not yourproblem, you're your problem.
Yeah, and he was dead, deadspot on Right and he got me out
of that space of excuse, makingRight Similar to your story.
Yeah, but it was because hewanted to move me forward, not
because he just wanted to pointout the fact that my thinking
was stinking Right, which it was, and and he cared enough to to
(21:25):
say it rather than just pretend,like you know, everything I was
saying was fine when it wasn'tright.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
He cared yeah, that's so interesting because none of
those particular things areoverly profound or particularly
found.
Like, isn't it more fun tothink like that?
But but when it comes to like,you know the lights are down and
and like, right, like you justhear the thing at the exact
moment you need it, right, um, Ithink that, uh, uh, I think
(21:53):
that's probably one of thereasons why I advocate and why I
have, personally, any time I'mmaking a leap from good at this
to new thing with a biggeropportunity, I've always, I've
always, uh, I've always had acoach.
Sure, sure, I've always eithersystemically had one or paid for
somebody.
Yeah, I remember when I firststarted I had left vector
(22:16):
management.
After 10 years in the field as avector manager, by the way, I'd
gone from a branch manager whowas awful 80% of the time to
having a really good end, andthe end was so good that it kind
of made up.
And also, how people alwaysremember, it's not how you start
, it's how you finish.
People really remember that.
And so next following year, Igot a choice territory as a
(22:40):
junior in college and so now Ihad competence, sure, right,
like, sometimes you just have toget through.
I had competence.
Sure Right, like sometimes youjust have to get through.
I had confidence and we justwent in there and just
annihilated everybody thatsummer.
I mean it was one of the mostfun Like I was in.
I was at weddings of the peoplewho were my college student.
I'm old enough now where I gotto right.
Like some of them have kids.
(23:01):
Most of the kids are namedafter me Right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
And so Right Even the girls.
What's her?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
name Michael Monroe.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's like no, that's her first name.
We pronounce it like Mikkel,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, she likes being called, you know, eminem
or something, right?
So, anyway, so I I eventuallyrose to the top of, to the top
of now I'm a year round manager.
Now I'm a good year roundmanager.
Now I'm a-round manager puttingout other offices.
Now I'm you know, there's anupper manager position at Vector
, called division manager.
I'm in charge of Southern NewEngland three states, 3.2
million people.
(23:35):
We have 10 offices now.
So not only am I crushing mypilot office, but I'm also
reproducing.
And this was before the age of30.
And this was the.
That was the 10 years ofdedication to learn the
profession.
And then, when that season oflife transitioned, now, all of a
(23:58):
sudden, I found myself in awhole new world.
I found myself not in the salesside of things, but I found
myself in the marketing side ofthings.
I was so intrigued by the fact,I mean, digital marketing.
This was digital marketing.
Uh, it wasn't new, but it was.
It was, you know, when Istarted as a digital marketer in
2008,.
(24:18):
It was still like, like theydidn't have degrees in it yet,
right, like the idea of adigital marketing agency wasn't
a thing.
It was just.
You were a marketing agency, youwere an agency of record, an
aor right, like that's how theindustry was, and so and so here
was this guy, not even 30 yearsold yet, who was just wildly
(24:38):
intrigued by the fact that, ifhe could put words together in
the right combination and couldproject these words on a screen
and then get that screen infront of the right person at the
right time, like the thoughtwas, like you could make money
in your sleep, like you can makemoney on, like this, this sales
(25:02):
letter, right, right, was, was,and, by the way, that you know
know the understanding of whatmarketing was back then is not
is.
My understanding has deeplyevolved, you know, in the last
15, 16 years since then, butthat was kind of the, that was
the attractive promise, that wasthe thing that that pulled it
in.
So um quickly found out how badI sucked at that.
The transferable skill there,though, was at.
(25:25):
For 10 years plus, I was verygood as a speechwriter.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So I could public speak.
So when I made the jump tocopywriting which is just the
fancy words for people, that canput persuasive words on paper
to get people to do some type ofaction right, when I made that
jump, there was some real.
There was some realtransferable skills like how to
tell stories, but there was noinherent knowledge of of how to,
(25:52):
how to write.
Like write well, yeah, likewrite for, write for engagement.
So, through serendipitous andprovidential relationships, I
met a guy named Charles Orlando,my first author that I got to
really, really, really roll upsleeves with, and Charles wrote
the bestselling book the Problemwith Women is Men.
(26:13):
The whole thing is fantastic.
Even as a married dude, I'llstill pull it out and rewrite
Like just really, really, really, really good.
And he said something to methat was so important.
He said universally you got towrite through the suck, like
sucking at something is thefirst step to be sort of good at
(26:33):
something.
And and what I learned throughworking with him and in that
experience, like if you were toask me what are the, what are
the three moments when peoplereally really really need a
coach?
Um, one thing is when they'relearning a profession, so so
they go from.
They go from I'm good at thething to now I'm doing a new
thing.
(26:53):
You need somebody to oversee oroverlook or pour into or
encourage or remind or just giveyou those little idioms of
wisdom.
Yeah Right, like you got tohave a profession coach, because
you guys, I mean we're all like, we're all in some degree in
the coaching industry and andwhat we're what we're selling in
(27:17):
the coaching industry andtraining industry is, is one
very, very simple thing, orselling is we're selling
consistency.
Sure, like there's there'sthere's three kind of layers of
transformation.
Layer one is, um, what I know.
So it's like, okay, um, I'lluse a, I'll use an example that
that you know.
(27:38):
I mean, I can certainly relateto it.
It's like, okay, I need to eat,uh, this many grams of fiber
per day.
I need to eat more veggies.
I don't have enough veggies.
I need to eat my protein first.
That's going to help my bloodsugar.
You know start protein and Ineed to.
You know, drink.
You know 128 ounces or whatever.
You know water or whatnot.
Right, like, intellectually,it's very easy to know.
(28:02):
The second layer oftransformation is then doing it
right.
So now I take what I know andthis is what I quickly found
about kind of the fool's gold ofmarketing was I could create
marketing that would sell athing, oftentimes an online
course or a piece of content.
Back then it was so easy tomake money in content because
(28:24):
there wasn't a lot of peopledoing it.
So it's like, you know, justname your course something
tantalizing, have a really long,long, long, long long sales
letter and then, you know, setyour cell phone to ding, ding,
ding every time someone makes anorder and you know, now you're
out with your girlfriend.
It's like, oh, did that rightNow you're, now you're, you know
, the coolest guy ever.
(28:45):
But that didn't result intransformation, because once
people get information, the nextthing is like, okay, how do I
apply that in my circumstanceand tell me if you guys have
found this to be true?
I mean, I certainly have, butwhere knowing what to do can be
asynchronous?
Is that I think I'm gettingthese words right?
(29:05):
Is that where, like, I canwatch videos and I don't reply
to the video, I can just absorbthe information?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
and then is synchronous learning.
I can go back and forth withsomebody.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, there's like a, there's a um, a relationship
yeah, yeah, so that learn thatin one way one, one direction
flow, yeah that's asynchronous,right, so okay, so so I can
learn, I can sell online coursesall day long and there is a
small percentage of people thatcan take information, figure it
out and then go into this likepower place of like.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
OK, I read that book.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Now I have atomic habits or whatever.
Right, right, right Like, okleaders, you know eat, you know
last Got it.
I'll never eat first, rightLike, and all of a sudden
they're off to the races.
But most of humanity isn't likethat, because most of most
people have nuanced situationsand so, in order to be able to
get it right, it's reallyhelpful for me, and I can't even
count how many nutritioncoaches fitness know my peak
(29:58):
weight of 230 pounds to now at40, almost 44, like less than my
high school weight.
Right Like.
I've had a lot, and that'sbecause of the ability to be
able to be like okay.
So I hate most vegetables.
(30:20):
How do I cook them?
How do I, in my situation,right Like, okay, okra's out
like screw like, okra's grosslike unless you fry it which
kind?
Speaker 3 (30:28):
of defeats or pickle it yeah, yeah you can pickle
okra, so good, money side.
Note, different topic, but yeah, you'll love it.
See story, true story.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I love synchronous yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy had
this secret all along, and nowright okay.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
So let me kind kind of just want to wrap my head
around what you're saying, right?
So if we're talking aboutorganizational leadership, we're
talking about moving peopleforward.
Wait, you're trying to bring itback.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Don't bring it back yet this is important because
this is totally going to likeunlock organizational leadership
, right, so it's what to do.
Then it's how to do it, right,okay, so it's the iteration and
getting it right, and then thelast thing is doing it daily and
doing it consistently.
Yeah, and?
And the idea that this goes toorganizational leadership is is
(31:16):
it matches exactly how mostpeople manage, but most people
manage in only one directionthey manage activity, they
manage hours and they manageresults.
Got it, which are reallyimportant things, but all that
is is level one.
(31:37):
That's just what to do.
Got it, that's just what to do.
So, what to do, and I'm amanager.
That's great.
We need managers, sure, andthere's a lot of people in the
population that are not growthmindset, that are not driven by
wild curiosity, and they needmanagement and need to be told
what to do.
But the next level ofleadership, which is the middle
(32:01):
rung here, is not just what todo, but now passing that and
helping develop theunderstanding of empowering this
person to really be able to doit on their own.
Got it?
So I mean, for example,parenting, like the goal is to
(32:22):
have children that are betterthan us.
Sure, and you know, part ofthat means let's teach them
everything I know, whichoftentimes backfires unless you
guys know something.
I don't right, like, like,because my kids love hearing
from me.
They want to know, like, dad,tell me how to do everything.
My wife too.
Kaylee's like wow, that's soprofound.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
You guys aren't really yeah, I'm like, wow,
that's new to me.
Let's transition my bookpromotion.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
How that works the point being that that most, most
, uh, a lot of leaders don'twant to invest the time in, in
creating people that can trulybe autonomous why is that?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
yeah, oh, my god, I think you're right, by the way,
like they it.
Because it's harder, it takeslonger, you start investing the
time.
But why is it that leaders,especially young leaders, want
to avoid the time it takes totruly develop somebody?
Speaker 1 (33:12):
yeah, two reasons.
Number one is because it doestake a lot of time, right, like,
to get people to a place ofleadership is, uh, I do you
watch, uh we do, and then you doI watch, and there's
conversations that happenbetween every single one of
those things.
Right, yeah, and the problem is, you can only have those
(33:34):
conversations if you have realmastery over what it is that
you're trying to get.
So the analogy I'll look atthis.
I know it's a conversationabout leadership, but the
analogy I'll make is withartificial intelligence about
leadership, but, but the analogyI'll make is with artificial
intelligence.
What generative artificialintelligence is teaching people
right now is that they have noidea how to describe what
they're looking for, becausethey have no idea how to put
(33:56):
into words the very tacticalthings of of, yeah, like of what
it is that that they need.
And leaders are the same exactway.
Like, what do you mean?
You don't understand how manytimes you got to watch this when
I was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Here's how I know.
Nobody, nobody taught me it is.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's really easy for me to be like you just get up
there and give a keynote speech,but like, but like, if I'm
trying to break it down forsomebody, I have to be able to
teach it at the level of okay.
So when you ask the audience arhetorical question what you're
going to do, you're going togive them two options and you're
going to give the second optionwith a little greater emphasis
(34:33):
and intonation.
So that way the audiencereplies to you and now they're a
hundred percent with you andyou're on the same page.
So you're not, you're not goingto just ask an open-ended
question.
Now you look stupid and thenyou answer it.
You got to.
You know what's the mostpowerful form of advertising,
you know, is it, is ittraditional media or is it word
of mouth?
Word of mouth, right, like mostpeople don't speak or think at
(34:54):
that level of granularitybecause, quite candidly, it's
really hard to read theingredients from inside the box.
Yeah, so I think that's one ofthe really really, really big
reasons.
So I think that's one of thereally, really really big
reasons.
And then the other big reasonis I'm convinced there's just
(35:22):
not a lot of really really goodmodeling when it comes to how to
actually be that person.
So my seven directs manage a lotof their directs exactly how I
manage them when you know theyshow up with a question, you
know they show up to ourone-on-one, they have the mic
list.
It's like keep a mic list.
If I'm driving the conversation, you're not driving the
conversation, then what do Ineed you for?
Like, you show up with the miclist right and early on in the
(35:46):
relationship.
It starts with with with theyhave a problem, right, they have
a monkey.
I uh, I forget who who did that, maybe it was Ramsey and the
entree leader but it's like theycome in and then they like the
monkey jumps off their back andjumps on your desk and and a lot
of leaders, you know, just likea lot of parents, it's like, oh
, we solve your problem for you,sure, let me save you.
(36:07):
But it's like, no, we're goingto take him back, take her back.
Like this is this is yourmonkeys, yeah.
My two favorite phrases what doyou think and what do you
suggest.
And when I was a young leader,what I used to think was was
that there was only one level ofdelegation, was that there was
(36:30):
only one level of delegation.
And people that think like thatvery quickly realize that
delegation is a terrible,time-sucking,
energy-resent-buildingopportunity.
Because if I delegate tosomebody and they suck at it
which they will then all thelesson I'm getting is I'll never
delegate again, I'm just goingto do it myself.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Well, one of the things I hear you saying, Mike,
which I think is a legitimatechallenge in leadership, is my
hallucination is is that ifyou've gotten into a position of
leadership in part, it'sbecause you're actually pretty
good at solving problems.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yes, in part, right Along with some other skills.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Like, if you're great at solving problems, chances
are you end up in some sort ofleadership.
People have problems,businesses have problems.
I'm here to.
That's right.
And then, all of a sudden,because you're in a leadership
position or because you'veearned this respect from them,
they bring you their problems.
They're monkeys right, as youput it, and it's very easy to
continue being good at whatyou're already good at, which is
solving the problem, taking onthe monkey right, like until you
learn a new skill, which is howdo I coach, teach, guide, ask
(37:30):
the right question that allowsthis person to solve their own
problem, which is actuallyleadership.
If you bring me a problem and Isolve it, I'm actually not
leading you at all.
I'm just solving your problem,which I happen to be good at.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, I'm a leader, right and, by the way, I'm
making you codependent on me ordependent on me, yeah, in
certain cases, certain cases I'mneutering you which is actually
the third, the opposite ofdeveloping them.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
And I'm feeling good about myself because I'm needed.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
I'm playing whack-a-mole all day at
something I'm good at solvingproblems solving other people's
problems and I can go home atnight and actually feel like
what a day, right, like Icrushed it.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
The next one is hey, look into this for me, then give
me your advice.
Look into this for me, give meyour advice and I'll decide.
By the way, that's one of themost simple, best ways to
leverage anything.
So one of the things I do I'm achronic book buyer, course
buyer Like teach me all thethings.
I don't have time for all thethings.
(38:32):
So nothing I love more thanbeing like okay, you're going to
take, hey, you, right here,you're going to listen to these
five podcast episodes.
You're going to take thiscourse, you're going to do this,
give me your notes and thenyou're going to teach this to me
.
They're looking into it for me,right, yeah.
And then, as I get moreadvanced, maybe they're deciding
between software vendors.
Like, go, do calls with thisperson, this person, this person
, we're going to tweak our CRM,we need this or that, and I need
(38:54):
you to give me your advice,right.
Then there is explore, decideand check back with me.
So, so that's like the real,like when they make the, when
they get decision-making power.
That's like that's when you'vekind of turned the corner, right
.
Like huge, uh, explore anddecide within these limits.
I just had this conversation twodays ago.
We're doing a new sociallistening software and it's like
(39:17):
all right, how much is our oldone?
What do we hate about it?
Okay, it doesn't include.
What do you mean?
They're not monitoring YouTubecomments.
That's the dumbest thing ever.
Okay, here's our new.
You know, stephanie, decidewithin these limits and then go,
and then the last level ofdelegation is just get it done
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Like, just don't like , yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I trust you.
I trust you and so many peopletreat delegation like it should
be.
I trust you without having todo the work of getting to the
point of you're worthy anddeserving of trust.
And because, because our humannature and our tendency is just
to repeat the sins of the father, which is essentially keep
doing whatever was modeled rightLike I'm going to be as good or
(39:55):
as bad as the person that kindof brought me up through the
crucible during those realformative years, and boy was I
lucky that I had people whostewarded me.
Well, which is really the lastlevel of of when it comes to
consistency, is I'm kind ofparalleling the journey of of
managing self to managingorganizationally.
So you've got management,you've got leadership, and then
stewardship is really like thepinnacle of of like and this is
(40:23):
hard because stewardship is whenyou take on not only the
person's thinking but you reallytake on the mantra of how can I
be a blessing for this personin whatever trajectory they have
?
Like it really comes down tothe belief of of.
(40:43):
You know, god is using me inthis moment, right here, to to
be a blessing and to giveeverything I can to this person
and as I pour into them.
Like it's easy to love yourpeople, isn't it?
Yeah, which is why it sucksstewarding people, because in
many cases, most organizationshave to live in a place of catch
(41:05):
and release and and your mosttalented people always leave
first because they can, becausethey can, yeah, because they can
, and so and so, the, the, thepain of stewardship.
And I wasn't.
I wasn't a good steward when Iwas in my, even when I was a
good division manager managing abunch of states, for I was not
a, I was not at a place ofstewardship yet, yeah, like it
(41:28):
was, it was every time somebodyyou love quit or turned on you,
right because 1099s, andemotional, like I mean, it was
like right, like oh, yeah yeah,finish him right.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Like you, you literally are demonstrating your
heart getting ripped out, and Iwould argue that you're
underplaying how painful thisactually is so am I right here
so painful, like.
So I want to, I want to stay onthis for a minute because you
know someone's going to listento this podcast and be like I
just don't want to do thisanymore because I keep losing my
best people or I train them andthen they start getting some
(42:05):
success and they go to acompetitor or something of that
nature, something we've allexperienced, right, yeah, so
like, how do we?
How do we get past the pain ofthat?
Or how do we work through thesuck of that to get on the other
side of going throughleadership to becoming a good
steward?
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And the answer is we talkedabout having a profession coach,
someone who can come along withyou in your profession, and the
answer is the pain never goesaway.
But just like when you burnyour hand on a stove, if you
were to put your hand back onthe stove, it wouldn't burn as
much.
Right, there's the professioncoach.
(42:44):
I'm also a big, huge advocateof a process coach, somebody I
hire who is mastery of a certainthing that is going to help me
install checks and balances.
So, so, the first thingsomebody comes to me.
(43:05):
If someone's like hey, I'm not,you can tell you're stewarding.
Well, by the way, uh, uh, uh.
If, if someone involves youdeeply in there, I'm, I'm
thinking of changing careers, orI'm leaving, or I have to go,
or or right, like, like.
If you're involved in thatlife-changing process like mike,
(43:27):
can I talk to his friend mike,not boss mike, right now?
Speaker 2 (43:30):
yeah, like and that by the way.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
that's not always, you don't always want that's not
fun.
That's not an invitation foreverybody to tell me their
problems, which you know I'm not.
I'm not great at that role.
That's not stewardship.
But but if someone is going tome, that role they're involving
me versus informing me Rightwhen it's just like hey, I'm,
I'm, I'm going somewhere else.
This is a two weeks notice orfour weeks notice or just ghost,
(43:54):
right, like people, just ghost,like that's a thing and, by the
way, that's a thing to endure,right.
But a process coach is going tosay, okay, let's look at the
process of events and let's lookat the formula that created
that result.
(44:14):
So the idea of a developmentpipeline is really a lot of what
we're talking about, everythingfrom delegation to what's the
career path thing, do you?
Susan Drum, one of my processcoaches, taught me about running
.
You guys know exit interviews,right?
Sure, I mean, her whole thingis like if you're running an
exit interview, you'reinterviewing them way too late.
(44:36):
So she was the first person Iever heard.
I know a lot of people say thisnow, but she was the one who
taught me how to run stayinterviews.
Oh yeah, and stay interviewsare simply like, let's sit down
with you.
Let's career path.
Let me tell you what could bean opportunity for you, what
can't be an opportunity for you.
Like, I work with a lot ofreally talented people that I
pay hourly and there's notfull-time salaried positions for
(44:57):
everybody.
So, as we career path, we haveto, and we draw it out.
When you get to this point,you're going to be on the cusp
of potentially outgrowing theorganization, and so one path is
this way.
One path is this way.
One path is this way.
Path is this way.
One path is this way.
(45:18):
One path is this way.
When you actually systematicallybuild into the process, catch
and release.
Now, all of a sudden, thatbecomes a recruiting tool, right
, and?
And that whole adage of of ifyou love something, set it free.
If it comes back to you, it'syours, if it doesn't, it was
never yours to begin with.
Like that's kind of what reallyreally really helped me, help
me flip that switch, and so, um,but I don't, I don't want to
(45:41):
limit process to just.
I mean, we're talking aboutleadership development and I
think everybody should have,everybody should be able to
articulate what is yourleadership development process,
and I also think people shouldbe able to articulate a good
leader.
Can I articulate who is in yourleadership development pipeline
?
One of the things we've talkedabout off camera, which I'm a
(46:01):
huge advocate of, is is jumpingrank, and so I'm not talking
about the cheesy like open doorpolicy I'm talking about.
I'm talking about I'm here.
I've got direct reports here.
They have people that they areraising up because they're
modeling me Right and I need toknow who these superstars are
(46:22):
and I need to create systematicsurface area with them.
It might be a once a month call, it might be hey, we're going
to work on a project together.
It might be.
Let's pull you into thisconversation and into the
discussion and let's create asituation where you know the
cliche at the end of the meeting, where it's like okay, great,
(46:43):
meeting everybody.
Hey, you know, alyssa, what doyou think?
Like be candid, right, yeah,and some organizations now
Alyssa's candid and they're like, yeah, speaker, totally spoken
to, that wasn't, we weren'tserious about that right, oh
yeah.
And then the other.
You know.
Now Alyssa says the thing whereit's like wait what?
Hold on, guys, everybody sitback down.
We got to finish this.
Okay, say what you said again,all right?
(47:04):
Hey, do you have the otternotes?
Let's look right, like thathappened recently with a gal
named Alyssa.
It's a situation of if we'renot, if we're not, if we don't
know who's in our pipeline andwe just assume that it is our
directs, or we don't havesomebody ready in the queue, or
(47:27):
we don't have a wish list.
I have a wish list of peoplethat I don't know how, I don't
know when, I don't know in whatcapacity, but I really want to
work with these people one dayon something.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
And I'm not just talking about a dream 100.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Like, uh, uh I think I saw Brunson is one of your
books down here he gets, he getsascribed to that, even though I
don't think that was purely hisconcept.
But but, the point being, like,I want to have my dream hundred
two of who I want to partnerwith and what I want to do and
who can be my referral partnersand so forth.
But but I want to make surethat, like I'm always thinking
talent first, yeah, which youknow summarized beautifully by
(48:09):
the book titled by Ben and DanBen Hardy, dan Sullivan, who,
not how.
Yeah, like when you find theright who's the who's the right,
who's, bring the how's yeah,like they will solve the
problems.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
I hope you enjoyed that time with Mike Monroe.
We have more to come from Mikein episode three, part two of
our interview with him.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to theSherpa Leadership Podcast.
If this episode inspired you,please subscribe, leave a review
and share it with a fellowleader.
For more resources, you can goto SherpaConsultingGroupcom.
Remember that leadership is ajourney.
(48:42):
Every step you take matters.
Keep stepping.
We'll see you next time.
anytime I'm making a leap from good at this to new
thing with a bigger opportunity.
I've always, I've always uh,I've always had a coach, the
right, who's bring the house.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, like they will solve the problems you're
listening to the sherpaleadership podcast your guide to
climbing higher in life andleadership.
I'm reed moore and alongsidechase williams, we're listening
to the Sherpa Leadership Podcastyour guide to climbing higher
in life and leadership.
I'm Reed Moore and alongsideChase Williams, we're here to
help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead
with greater clarity and purpose.
All right, everybody, welcomeback to the Sherpa Leadership
(00:45):
Podcast.
I'm your host, reed Moore,alongside my good friend and
co-host, chase Williams.
As always, we are here to helpyou climb higher in life and
leadership.
Our job here is to give you thetools and the practical
insights from amazing people tobe able to help you move forward
in your life, have breakthroughand really be able to carry the
weight of leadership much, mucheasier.
(01:06):
So we're here today with a goodfriend of ours, a seasoned
leader that we are reallyexcited to be able to bring to
you.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Who we have here Mr Michael Monroe, and I'm going to
do a little intro here for Mike.
But Mike Monroe is a Christianstrategist, marketer, trainer
and relentless innovator.
His work's been published inSuccess, forbes, fast Company,
killer Startups and CEO World.
Michael's the digital strategymanager for Vector Marketing,
the direct sales arm ofCo-Cutlery, an American-made
(01:35):
product that recently celebratedits 75th anniversary Love it.
He's also a thought leader atGiftology, north America's
number one relationship agency.
Giftology's mission is to fastforward relationships to solve
business problems.
I first met Mike as part of amen's group that we put together
at our church, and I've come tolove not only his brilliance
(01:58):
but just his willingness toshare it with others.
He's certainly been aninspiration to me.
I get to learn to be a betterleader and a better innovator
from Mr Mike Monroe.
So glad to have you here today,man.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Thanks.
That's kind of ironic, by theway, because the last time we
did coffee it was me recordingyou which would insinuate that I
was the one doing all thelearning.
So you know, hopefully Itouched something there.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Hopefully it's a little back and forth, but it's
great to have you here today.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Thank, it's great to have you here today.
Thank you.
Well, and it's one of the bestthings about you is you are one
of the smartest people I know,and part of that is the fact
that you are just a relentlesslearner and we want to dig into
that and all the other thingsthat makes you what you really
are, which is a truly successfulleader.
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, you once called me I brag about this you once
called me when you introduced meat one point at our men's group
.
You called me mentallyaggressive.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yes, yeah, which was my favorite description of all
time, because it actually madehyper intellectualism sound
masculine and tough and cool,and so it's like you know it'd
be a little violent like, yeah,like take that math team Right.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So, so, thank you for that.
So, yeah, I, uh, I'm excited.
Where do we want to?
Where do we want to go?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So let's start with, just give us a lay of the land
of who you are.
You know you're a seasonedleader.
You're somebody who you knowcarries the weight of leadership
responsibility not just for,you know, being on stage or a
performance, but you have toshow up day in and day out and
get the job done and inspirepeople to do that.
So where do you come from?
And just walk us through yourcareer up to this point.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Let me answer the what do you do question, right,
so the what do I do question.
I have been work from homesince 2009.
Okay, like, way before it wascool, way before it was,
everybody else was doing it.
And it's incredible when youwork from home because,
obviously, as we've allexperienced um, you know it's
1099s.
(03:48):
You guys got started in yourreal estate background.
I was 1099 at Cutco as a 19year old college kid, like doing
in-home presentations, rope,leather, penny, I'm sure people
have.
I mean, you guys both own Cutco, so so you get that.
But um, so, so from 2009,.
Um, then the second piece ofthis is I run and I have a team
(04:09):
of seven direct reports.
My org chart has over 30 peoplefull timer, salaried, part
timers, 1099s and we're all workfrom home too.
Ok, so I think that's animportant point because, you
know, certainly in modernenvironment, there's been a
certain kind of narrative of, ofyou know, hey, work from home
(04:30):
Is it for everybody?
Some people need the in-officeenvironment and I absolutely
think there's pros and cons.
But my point of bringing it upfor leadership podcast is that,
like I have been duplicatable inthat regards, it's a big deal,
I think so.
I think so because it's notlike okay, I've hired 70 people
and 30 of them made it.
(04:51):
It is our average stickingpoint.
Our average retention is reallyreally good.
So, you know, we've learnedsome things, oftentimes in the
School of Hard Knocks and Trialand Error, about how to lead
remotely and how to guide anddirect and really create people
that are autonomous, which Ithink would be kind of my third
(05:11):
bragging point in terms of, like, you know, why should I listen
to anything you say?
And, uh, I I cynically.
I think the answer is youshouldn't.
I think right and like, unlessit really makes sense and
resonates.
Yeah, mentioned what did yousay?
Thought leader Was that?
the was that the?
I mean those two words, man,those, those words make me vomit
(05:32):
.
Maybe we'll get into that alittle bit, but but but yeah.
So I would say in my schedule Ihave probably 66% autonomy of
the operations I do or theprojects I work on, which means
with any three things that I doon you know, an eight or nine or
(05:54):
even a 10 hour basis on busyday and busy right, it's because
I chose two out of three ofthose things and I've learned
about myself.
I can be an operator, I can bea guy who goes in there and runs
the machine, but but reallywhere I work like best is is in
the space of like go in there,try a thing, test a thing, make
(06:16):
a thing, make an MVP, a minimumviable product and then bring
people alongside, teach them tounderstand it, teach them to run
it, help them optimize it sothey can take the thing and make
it way you know, up into theright, better than better than I
can do, right, yeah, um, andthat's really kind of the last
thing I'd say if you were to,you know, be on resume would be
(06:37):
um, I have lived kind of theselast 15 years.
Uh, very fortunately last 15years, very fortunately, very
providentially, very like not inmy own doing, but a lifestyle
and a quality of life that Iwould call incrementally and
iteratively better.
(07:02):
I once heard the analogy.
I love this analogy.
They said if you're a goodinvestor, your stock portfolio,
your line of like you know how'sit going looks like a guy or a
gal on an escalator using ayo-yo, where it's like, you know
you have ups, you have downs,but in general you're trending
up and to the right, and so Ithink that would be a pretty
(07:24):
good, uh holistic, analogy of ofmy life as a professional,
personal, uh health, uh, youmentioned you know where'd I
come from.
Uh, we've all had, we've allhad those seasons of our career
Like what decade of it was yourswhere you like you're like like
I'm just gonna give up thisdecade to learn the craft.
(07:46):
What was that?
What was that for?
you, it was my 30s, your 30s,yeah, your 30s.
Aren't you still in your 30s?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
no, unfortunately I'm getting invited back what uh uh
.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
I bet you were younger.
What was your decade?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
uh, late, late 20s into my mid 30s was my crucible,
wow yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, so I was, I was , mine, was like my 20s, that
was my like.
I am going to, I am going tosacrifice this decade to, to,
you know, the altar of, oflearning how to add marketplace
value.
Right, and that was really the.
Would you wear the crucible?
Yes, right, and that was reallythe.
(08:26):
Would you wear the crucible?
Yes, yeah, that's a.
That's a better, betterdescription I could ever, better
description I could ever giveit.
And, of course, what comes outof that is is some evidence of,
like, I know who I am, uh, Iknow who I'm not Sure Right,
which is, in many cases, like,probably the most important.
I know where my gaps are.
You know, if we're really lucky, maybe we, you know, meet
(08:47):
somebody who says I do coverthose, cover those gaps, and I'm
fortunate to have you know that, with my, with my lovely bride,
kaylee of my gosh 12 years dude, amazing, yeah, so, uh, that is
my, I would say, leadership.
I'd say that's my leadershipresume.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So let me riff off of this kind of this idea, of the
kind of the crucible.
And the other thing that piquedmy interest is is we I have a
heart for and we have a heartfor people who are what we call
organizational leadership.
Right, it's what we do in ourfamilies, it's what we do in
business, and that is that youfundamentally can't push a
button on a microwave and getpopcorn, like you're sitting
(09:28):
there, you're in front of thegrill for 24 hours or you're in
front of the crock pot, likeresults are slow, incremental
over time, which requiresself-leadership and consistency.
And maybe the place that startsis this idea of if you actually
want to lead at a high level,you have to be able to get
individual results.
You have to actually be able tomove the needle, and then
(09:50):
somehow you have to figure outhow to transition from I'm a
producer, I move the needle to Ican help other people move the
needle in a way that I nevercould by myself.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What's the name of that law?
There was that law right whenpeople are promoted.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Oh, the Peter Principle.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, what's that?
How does that go?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
People are promoted To the highest level of
incompetence.
Yes, yeah, so they succeed atsomething.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
They get promoted to something that they're, in
essence, incompetent at, andthen there's a real risk in
doing that I can't even describehow many times I've seen
organizations make that mistake,with one with one massive
exception, I would say, beingCutco, because Cutco is
phenomenal at this Meaningmeaning.
The motto that I heard, whichis a lesser version of the Peter
(10:36):
principle, is if you want totank sales in your organization,
take your number one rep andmake them the sales manager.
Take your number one rep andmake them the sales manager.
Right, like literally the worstpossible thing you could do,
because in many cases, like uh,uh, what got you there won't
take you there, sure?
Um, we see this in the businesscommunity all the time, with
(10:57):
with, you've got the, you've gotthe startup founder, who
oftentimes is a very visionary,charismatic, gregarious
personality, and then people arelike well, travis Kalanick,
former Cutco rep, by the way,travis Kalanick, you can't,
you're not the person we need totake Uber to here, so we're
(11:19):
going to remove you, you know,and then we're going to put
somebody else in there.
I mean the amount oforganizations that have
experienced that are countlessnow.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, so it's so tempting, right, because you
look at something, you seeperformance, right, and you
don't necessarily put, you don'tcatalog that correctly.
And so you see performance andso you want to reward it.
Or even they raise their handand say, hey, I want to do
something else.
How did you navigate that inyour leadership journey?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, so fantastic question, because another way of
wording it is when you do goodenough to create a comfort zone,
how do you then step into thenew thing and and create mastery
and dominance in that newcomfort zone?
(12:05):
Yeah, and it makes me thinkabout the concept of
transferable skills.
Okay, so in every little thingwe do, I mean, there's always
stuff we're picking up Like,there's stuff we're rehearsing
(12:26):
or practicing, and presumablywhat's the saying?
Practice makes perfect.
Yeah, which you guys know isn'ttrue.
What practice makes is practicemakes permanent.
Yes, yeah, and so I would sayyou could probably look at every
success or failure I've had andtaking that leap to the next
thing and and saying, okay,between here and here, there was
(12:52):
a coach that helped maintainand transfer the confidence and
believability of of these skillsinto the next thing, while
simultaneously pointing out themassive, massive, massive gaps
that I had going to the newthing.
So a perfect example of thiswould be I was an okay, cutco
(13:16):
rep.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I was an okay Cutco rep.
I mean, the thing that I didwas I worked really, really,
really hard and you know, 19, 20years old at the time like it's
easy to do.
And so I get my opportunity torun a summertime office in
Bangor, maine.
Okay, either of you guys beento Maine before?
(13:39):
No, okay, I've been to Maine.
Sounds pretty, it's gorgeous,but I want you to go to the
pretty part of Maine, like theaffluent southern Maine area,
and I want you to drive an hourand a half.
You come to the capital,augusta, and I want you to drive
another hour and a half.
Now you're in Bangor, bangor,bangor, you can drive six more
(14:02):
hours to go to kid in my family,to go to college.
So, you know, put a lot ofpressure on myself on this knife
job thing, right.
So I'm in Bangor, maine, andthings are not going well.
And when I say they're notgoing well when you run, I mean
it's not quite the franchisemodel.
(14:23):
Like Cutco supports theirbranch and district managers
financially in just ridiculousways.
But there is an element of likeeventually money runs out,
right, like the money I hadsaved up.
And I'll never forget my coachat the time, division manager,
ryan Trembler, and you guys knowthat in sales one of the most
(14:45):
important qualities is optimism,right Like yeah, whether you
feel like it or not.
Whether you feel like it or not,and in fact, this is why.
This is why, you know, if Iever meet a professional who's
admittedly and outwardly like,oh, I'm ADD, I'm like, well, you
better be in sales becausethat's one of the biggest
superpowers you can have, right,short celebrations, quick
(15:08):
recoveries, like if you cannotforget or not remember the bad
things, it's just like okay somewill, some won't right, yeah,
like the worst thing you can bein sports or in sales is an
overthinker, cerebral right Likesuper smart.
Right Like in sales is anoverthinker, cerebral right,
like super smart.
(15:28):
Right, like like, oh my gosh,why I'll never get, because you
can literally talk your way outof confidence.
Well, that's exactly what I didin my little branch office in
bangor maine.
I couldn't even afford anoffice in bangor maine.
I was in orno, maine, which waslike 25 minutes north.
It was on main street, I wasnext to a subway and and it was
like this vertical office thelandlord had mercy on, like a 20
year old kid I was able to toname drop um, uh, uh, uh.
(15:52):
My district manager had beenlike sorority sisters with a
friend of a friend who thelandlord's daughter.
So this was like this was purecharity, that he was doing this
for me, right, and it was.
I mean, it was sucking.
And so Ryan Tremblay calls meup.
He's like how's it going?
And I proceed to communicate tohim in painstaking detail of
how it is not going well and Idon't remember exactly what I
(16:14):
said, because I'm sure it wasthis elaborate like excuse and
this and that, and I wasprobably blaming the territory
or the people that were walkingin the door, the leads are weak.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, Coffee's
for closers.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, it's like no dude.
It's the leads, it's not me.
Yeah.
I am great, yeah, yeah yeah,like, yeah, it's fantastic, it
is fantastic.
And, ryan, I'll never forgetthis.
He goes, huh was how heresponded.
He's like huh.
He's like, where's theoptimistic Mike Monroe that I'm
(16:54):
so well acquainted with?
Right, we had had enoughhistory where, right, kind of
remind me, hold up the mirror, Igo, he's in there somewhere,
right, but he's like, well, letme put it to you this way and
what he proceeded to do was, uh,uh, communicate a narrative,
with every single point that hehad or that I had given him, as
(17:16):
to why I can't to foretell andcreate this narrative of why
this was gonna be like the bestthing and the best reason ever,
of why this happened, like this,and here's why that's good, and
this, and here's why that'sgood, and this, and here's why
that's good and this, and here'swhy that's good.
And then he delivered thepunchline of the whole thing.
It was this moment of silenceand I'm like, whoa, and he goes,
(17:38):
isn't more?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
fun to think like that.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Oh wow, he's like all right, dude, I got to go like
go do something, and, by the way, he was probably like he could
have been taking a dump for allI know, like walk in between,
like his office was poppingdoing like a hundred thousand
dollar weeks, which is reallygood, and I was, you know, a
hundred dollars and change,right, not a hundred thousand, a
hundred dollars and change,which is which is not a lot.
But that was such a profoundexperience for me that became
one of the first moments where,you know, before I had a cell
(18:08):
phone, before I had any of thesethings, I wrote that down.
Isn't it more fun to think likethat?
And it was one of the firstpost-it notes that I put up and
I read that every day.
And it was a reminder that oneof the transferable skills that
Vector and Cutco taught me was,whether you think you can or you
can't, you're right, see thepositive in every situation.
(18:30):
And I'd been so good about thatas a sales representative and
now, here I was, I'd kind offorgotten that and sometimes in
those moments like it reallyhelps to have that coach to
remind you of that Sure, andthen, once I was repaired
mentally, now he can take me toa you of that, sure, and then,
once I was repaired mentally,now he can take me to a place of
like, okay, let's talk aboutwhy you're sucking at this
(18:51):
particular function of theinterview.
Like I was finally in a place Icould receive, in a place I
could listen and and sometimes,you know, heavy is the head that
wears the crown right like,like I love.
Being a Northeast guy, I'm ahuge Boston sports fan.
So I saw, I saw an interviewwith Joe Mazzulla, the head
coach of the Boston Celtics, andif you're not, if anybody in
(19:12):
your audience isn't an NBA fan,the idea is, on the Boston
Celtics number one guy, jasonTatum, like super, all-star,
super stud, and this guy ismercilessly scrutinized prior to
this last year because it'slike you'll never be a Celtic
great if you can't win achampionship.
You get so far you disappear inbig games.
Why aren't the three-pointersconnecting when it matters most?
(19:34):
Like just constant, constant,like grading and gritting and
and I loved it because, um, inthe documentary they were, they
were.
You could hear the interview.
He goes.
You know, how do you feel aboutthe fact Coach Joe right, got
to have the coach, got to askthe coach?
How do you feel about the factthat Jason Tatum has to endure
(19:58):
these horrifically unfair doublestandards.
And Missoula goes, he gets to.
He gets to.
This is what he wants, likethis is what he signed up for.
He signed up for hard, like hesigned up.
If you want to be one of thegreatest, you have to be willing
to do that and pay the price ofgreatness.
And so I think, going back toyour original question of how
(20:22):
does somebody make the leap fromI'm good at this, now I go here
.
I mean, on one hand, it's justthe stubbornness to get through
the suck yeah right the crucibleyeah, the crucible, like like
you probably have a similarstory both you guys probably
have a similar story like whowas the ryan trembler in your
life when you guys were goingthrough the ish?
Like who was that?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
bob spooner.
Yeah, yeah, I'm a guy namedCody Right, like it's just.
You know, the guy who's thereand he listens, listens with
love, but at the same time it'slike I love you and I'm not
willing to allow you to stayhere.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I love you and I'm not allowing you to stay here.
Yeah, and that is that.
Bob too, bob Spooner.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, I was complaining about my boss and he
was a peer to my boss and hefinally just told me.
He said, chase, she's not yourproblem, you're your problem.
Yeah, and he was dead, deadspot on Right and he got me out
of that space of excuse, makingRight Similar to your story.
Yeah, but it was because hewanted to move me forward, not
because he just wanted to pointout the fact that my thinking
was stinking Right, which it was, and and he cared enough to to
(21:25):
say it rather than just pretend,like you know, everything I was
saying was fine when it wasn'tright.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
He cared yeah, that's so interesting because none of
those particular things areoverly profound or particularly
found.
Like, isn't it more fun tothink like that?
But but when it comes to like,you know the lights are down and
and like, right, like you justhear the thing at the exact
moment you need it, right, um, Ithink that, uh, uh, I think
(21:53):
that's probably one of thereasons why I advocate and why I
have, personally, any time I'mmaking a leap from good at this
to new thing with a biggeropportunity, I've always, I've
always, uh, I've always had acoach.
Sure, sure, I've always eithersystemically had one or paid for
somebody.
Yeah, I remember when I firststarted I had left vector
(22:16):
management.
After 10 years in the field as avector manager, by the way, I'd
gone from a branch manager whowas awful 80% of the time to
having a really good end, andthe end was so good that it kind
of made up.
And also, how people alwaysremember, it's not how you start
, it's how you finish.
People really remember that.
And so next following year, Igot a choice territory as a
(22:40):
junior in college and so now Ihad competence, sure, right,
like, sometimes you just have toget through.
I had competence.
Sure Right, like sometimes youjust have to get through.
I had confidence and we justwent in there and just
annihilated everybody thatsummer.
I mean it was one of the mostfun Like I was in.
I was at weddings of the peoplewho were my college student.
I'm old enough now where I gotto right.
Like some of them have kids.
(23:01):
Most of the kids are namedafter me Right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
And so Right Even the girls.
What's her?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
name Michael Monroe.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's like no, that's her first name.
We pronounce it like Mikkel,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, she likes being called, you know, eminem
or something, right?
So, anyway, so I I eventuallyrose to the top of, to the top
of now I'm a year round manager.
Now I'm a good year roundmanager.
Now I'm a-round manager puttingout other offices.
Now I'm you know, there's anupper manager position at Vector
, called division manager.
I'm in charge of Southern NewEngland three states, 3.2
million people.
(23:35):
We have 10 offices now.
So not only am I crushing mypilot office, but I'm also
reproducing.
And this was before the age of30.
And this was the.
That was the 10 years ofdedication to learn the
profession.
And then, when that season oflife transitioned, now, all of a
(23:58):
sudden, I found myself in awhole new world.
I found myself not in the salesside of things, but I found
myself in the marketing side ofthings.
I was so intrigued by the fact,I mean, digital marketing.
This was digital marketing.
Uh, it wasn't new, but it was.
It was, you know, when Istarted as a digital marketer in
2008,.
(24:18):
It was still like, like theydidn't have degrees in it yet,
right, like the idea of adigital marketing agency wasn't
a thing.
It was just.
You were a marketing agency, youwere an agency of record, an
aor right, like that's how theindustry was, and so and so here
was this guy, not even 30 yearsold yet, who was just wildly
(24:38):
intrigued by the fact that, ifhe could put words together in
the right combination and couldproject these words on a screen
and then get that screen infront of the right person at the
right time, like the thoughtwas, like you could make money
in your sleep, like you can makemoney on, like this, this sales
(25:02):
letter, right, right, was, was,and, by the way, that you know
know the understanding of whatmarketing was back then is not
is.
My understanding has deeplyevolved, you know, in the last
15, 16 years since then, butthat was kind of the, that was
the attractive promise, that wasthe thing that that pulled it
in.
So um quickly found out how badI sucked at that.
The transferable skill there,though, was at.
(25:25):
For 10 years plus, I was verygood as a speechwriter.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So I could public speak.
So when I made the jump tocopywriting which is just the
fancy words for people, that canput persuasive words on paper
to get people to do some type ofaction right, when I made that
jump, there was some real.
There was some realtransferable skills like how to
tell stories, but there was noinherent knowledge of of how to,
(25:52):
how to write.
Like write well, yeah, likewrite for, write for engagement.
So, through serendipitous andprovidential relationships, I
met a guy named Charles Orlando,my first author that I got to
really, really, really roll upsleeves with, and Charles wrote
the bestselling book the Problemwith Women is Men.
(26:13):
The whole thing is fantastic.
Even as a married dude, I'llstill pull it out and rewrite
Like just really, really, really, really good.
And he said something to methat was so important.
He said universally you got towrite through the suck, like
sucking at something is thefirst step to be sort of good at
(26:33):
something.
And and what I learned throughworking with him and in that
experience, like if you were toask me what are the, what are
the three moments when peoplereally really really need a
coach?
Um, one thing is when they'relearning a profession, so so
they go from.
They go from I'm good at thething to now I'm doing a new
thing.
(26:53):
You need somebody to oversee oroverlook or pour into or
encourage or remind or just giveyou those little idioms of
wisdom.
Yeah Right, like you got tohave a profession coach, because
you guys, I mean we're all like, we're all in some degree in
the coaching industry and andwhat we're what we're selling in
(27:17):
the coaching industry andtraining industry is, is one
very, very simple thing, orselling is we're selling
consistency.
Sure, like there's there'sthere's three kind of layers of
transformation.
Layer one is, um, what I know.
So it's like, okay, um, I'lluse a, I'll use an example that
that you know.
(27:38):
I mean, I can certainly relateto it.
It's like, okay, I need to eat,uh, this many grams of fiber
per day.
I need to eat more veggies.
I don't have enough veggies.
I need to eat my protein first.
That's going to help my bloodsugar.
You know start protein and Ineed to.
You know, drink.
You know 128 ounces or whatever.
You know water or whatnot.
Right, like, intellectually,it's very easy to know.
(28:02):
The second layer oftransformation is then doing it
right.
So now I take what I know andthis is what I quickly found
about kind of the fool's gold ofmarketing was I could create
marketing that would sell athing, oftentimes an online
course or a piece of content.
Back then it was so easy tomake money in content because
(28:24):
there wasn't a lot of peopledoing it.
So it's like, you know, justname your course something
tantalizing, have a really long,long, long, long long sales
letter and then, you know, setyour cell phone to ding, ding,
ding every time someone makes anorder and you know, now you're
out with your girlfriend.
It's like, oh, did that rightNow you're, now you're, you know
, the coolest guy ever.
(28:45):
But that didn't result intransformation, because once
people get information, the nextthing is like, okay, how do I
apply that in my circumstanceand tell me if you guys have
found this to be true?
I mean, I certainly have, butwhere knowing what to do can be
asynchronous?
Is that I think I'm gettingthese words right?
(29:05):
Is that where, like, I canwatch videos and I don't reply
to the video, I can just absorbthe information?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
and then is synchronous learning.
I can go back and forth withsomebody.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, there's like a, there's a um, a relationship
yeah, yeah, so that learn thatin one way one, one direction
flow, yeah that's asynchronous,right, so okay, so so I can
learn, I can sell online coursesall day long and there is a
small percentage of people thatcan take information, figure it
out and then go into this likepower place of like.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
OK, I read that book.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Now I have atomic habits or whatever.
Right, right, right Like, okleaders, you know eat, you know
last Got it.
I'll never eat first, rightLike, and all of a sudden
they're off to the races.
But most of humanity isn't likethat, because most of most
people have nuanced situationsand so, in order to be able to
get it right, it's reallyhelpful for me, and I can't even
count how many nutritioncoaches fitness know my peak
(29:58):
weight of 230 pounds to now at40, almost 44, like less than my
high school weight.
Right Like.
I've had a lot, and that'sbecause of the ability to be
able to be like okay.
So I hate most vegetables.
(30:20):
How do I cook them?
How do I, in my situation,right Like, okay, okra's out
like screw like, okra's grosslike unless you fry it which
kind?
Speaker 3 (30:28):
of defeats or pickle it yeah, yeah you can pickle
okra, so good, money side.
Note, different topic, but yeah, you'll love it.
See story, true story.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I love synchronous yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy had
this secret all along, and nowright okay.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
So let me kind kind of just want to wrap my head
around what you're saying, right?
So if we're talking aboutorganizational leadership, we're
talking about moving peopleforward.
Wait, you're trying to bring itback.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Don't bring it back yet this is important because
this is totally going to likeunlock organizational leadership
, right, so it's what to do.
Then it's how to do it, right,okay, so it's the iteration and
getting it right, and then thelast thing is doing it daily and
doing it consistently.
Yeah, and?
And the idea that this goes toorganizational leadership is is
(31:16):
it matches exactly how mostpeople manage, but most people
manage in only one directionthey manage activity, they
manage hours and they manageresults.
Got it, which are reallyimportant things, but all that
is is level one.
(31:37):
That's just what to do.
Got it, that's just what to do.
So, what to do, and I'm amanager.
That's great.
We need managers, sure, andthere's a lot of people in the
population that are not growthmindset, that are not driven by
wild curiosity, and they needmanagement and need to be told
what to do.
But the next level ofleadership, which is the middle
(32:01):
rung here, is not just what todo, but now passing that and
helping develop theunderstanding of empowering this
person to really be able to doit on their own.
Got it?
So I mean, for example,parenting, like the goal is to
(32:22):
have children that are betterthan us.
Sure, and you know, part ofthat means let's teach them
everything I know, whichoftentimes backfires unless you
guys know something.
I don't right, like, like,because my kids love hearing
from me.
They want to know, like, dad,tell me how to do everything.
My wife too.
Kaylee's like wow, that's soprofound.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
You guys aren't really yeah, I'm like, wow,
that's new to me.
Let's transition my bookpromotion.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
How that works the point being that that most, most
, uh, a lot of leaders don'twant to invest the time in, in
creating people that can trulybe autonomous why is that?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
yeah, oh, my god, I think you're right, by the way,
like they it.
Because it's harder, it takeslonger, you start investing the
time.
But why is it that leaders,especially young leaders, want
to avoid the time it takes totruly develop somebody?
Speaker 1 (33:12):
yeah, two reasons.
Number one is because it doestake a lot of time, right, like,
to get people to a place ofleadership is, uh, I do you
watch, uh we do, and then you doI watch, and there's
conversations that happenbetween every single one of
those things.
Right, yeah, and the problem is, you can only have those
(33:34):
conversations if you have realmastery over what it is that
you're trying to get.
So the analogy I'll look atthis.
I know it's a conversationabout leadership, but the
analogy I'll make is withartificial intelligence about
leadership, but, but the analogyI'll make is with artificial
intelligence.
What generative artificialintelligence is teaching people
right now is that they have noidea how to describe what
they're looking for, becausethey have no idea how to put
(33:56):
into words the very tacticalthings of of, yeah, like of what
it is that that they need.
And leaders are the same exactway.
Like, what do you mean?
You don't understand how manytimes you got to watch this when
I was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Here's how I know.
Nobody, nobody taught me it is.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's really easy for me to be like you just get up
there and give a keynote speech,but like, but like, if I'm
trying to break it down forsomebody, I have to be able to
teach it at the level of okay.
So when you ask the audience arhetorical question what you're
going to do, you're going togive them two options and you're
going to give the second optionwith a little greater emphasis
(34:33):
and intonation.
So that way the audiencereplies to you and now they're a
hundred percent with you andyou're on the same page.
So you're not, you're not goingto just ask an open-ended
question.
Now you look stupid and thenyou answer it.
You got to.
You know what's the mostpowerful form of advertising,
you know, is it, is ittraditional media or is it word
of mouth?
Word of mouth, right, like mostpeople don't speak or think at
(34:54):
that level of granularitybecause, quite candidly, it's
really hard to read theingredients from inside the box.
Yeah, so I think that's one ofthe really really, really big
reasons.
So I think that's one of thereally, really really big
reasons.
And then the other big reasonis I'm convinced there's just
(35:22):
not a lot of really really goodmodeling when it comes to how to
actually be that person.
So my seven directs manage a lotof their directs exactly how I
manage them when you know theyshow up with a question, you
know they show up to ourone-on-one, they have the mic
list.
It's like keep a mic list.
If I'm driving the conversation, you're not driving the
conversation, then what do Ineed you for?
Like, you show up with the miclist right and early on in the
(35:46):
relationship.
It starts with with with theyhave a problem, right, they have
a monkey.
I uh, I forget who who did that, maybe it was Ramsey and the
entree leader but it's like theycome in and then they like the
monkey jumps off their back andjumps on your desk and and a lot
of leaders, you know, just likea lot of parents, it's like, oh
, we solve your problem for you,sure, let me save you.
(36:07):
But it's like, no, we're goingto take him back, take her back.
Like this is this is yourmonkeys, yeah.
My two favorite phrases what doyou think and what do you
suggest.
And when I was a young leader,what I used to think was was
that there was only one level ofdelegation, was that there was
(36:30):
only one level of delegation.
And people that think like thatvery quickly realize that
delegation is a terrible,time-sucking,
energy-resent-buildingopportunity.
Because if I delegate tosomebody and they suck at it
which they will then all thelesson I'm getting is I'll never
delegate again, I'm just goingto do it myself.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Well, one of the things I hear you saying, Mike,
which I think is a legitimatechallenge in leadership, is my
hallucination is is that ifyou've gotten into a position of
leadership in part, it'sbecause you're actually pretty
good at solving problems.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yes, in part, right Along with some other skills.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Like, if you're great at solving problems, chances
are you end up in some sort ofleadership.
People have problems,businesses have problems.
I'm here to.
That's right.
And then, all of a sudden,because you're in a leadership
position or because you'veearned this respect from them,
they bring you their problems.
They're monkeys right, as youput it, and it's very easy to
continue being good at whatyou're already good at, which is
solving the problem, taking onthe monkey right, like until you
learn a new skill, which is howdo I coach, teach, guide, ask
(37:30):
the right question that allowsthis person to solve their own
problem, which is actuallyleadership.
If you bring me a problem and Isolve it, I'm actually not
leading you at all.
I'm just solving your problem,which I happen to be good at.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, I'm a leader, right and, by the way, I'm
making you codependent on me ordependent on me, yeah, in
certain cases, certain cases I'mneutering you which is actually
the third, the opposite ofdeveloping them.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
And I'm feeling good about myself because I'm needed.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
I'm playing whack-a-mole all day at
something I'm good at solvingproblems solving other people's
problems and I can go home atnight and actually feel like
what a day, right, like Icrushed it.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
The next one is hey, look into this for me, then give
me your advice.
Look into this for me, give meyour advice and I'll decide.
By the way, that's one of themost simple, best ways to
leverage anything.
So one of the things I do I'm achronic book buyer, course
buyer Like teach me all thethings.
I don't have time for all thethings.
(38:32):
So nothing I love more thanbeing like okay, you're going to
take, hey, you, right here,you're going to listen to these
five podcast episodes.
You're going to take thiscourse, you're going to do this,
give me your notes and thenyou're going to teach this to me
.
They're looking into it for me,right, yeah.
And then, as I get moreadvanced, maybe they're deciding
between software vendors.
Like, go, do calls with thisperson, this person, this person
, we're going to tweak our CRM,we need this or that, and I need
(38:54):
you to give me your advice,right.
Then there is explore, decideand check back with me.
So, so that's like the real,like when they make the, when
they get decision-making power.
That's like that's when you'vekind of turned the corner, right
.
Like huge, uh, explore anddecide within these limits.
I just had this conversation twodays ago.
We're doing a new sociallistening software and it's like
(39:17):
all right, how much is our oldone?
What do we hate about it?
Okay, it doesn't include.
What do you mean?
They're not monitoring YouTubecomments.
That's the dumbest thing ever.
Okay, here's our new.
You know, stephanie, decidewithin these limits and then go,
and then the last level ofdelegation is just get it done
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Like, just don't like , yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I trust you.
I trust you and so many peopletreat delegation like it should
be.
I trust you without having todo the work of getting to the
point of you're worthy anddeserving of trust.
And because, because our humannature and our tendency is just
to repeat the sins of the father, which is essentially keep
doing whatever was modeled rightLike I'm going to be as good or
(39:55):
as bad as the person that kindof brought me up through the
crucible during those realformative years, and boy was I
lucky that I had people whostewarded me.
Well, which is really the lastlevel of of when it comes to
consistency, is I'm kind ofparalleling the journey of of
managing self to managingorganizationally.
So you've got management,you've got leadership, and then
stewardship is really like thepinnacle of of like and this is
(40:23):
hard because stewardship is whenyou take on not only the
person's thinking but you reallytake on the mantra of how can I
be a blessing for this personin whatever trajectory they have
?
Like it really comes down tothe belief of of.
(40:43):
You know, god is using me inthis moment, right here, to to
be a blessing and to giveeverything I can to this person
and as I pour into them.
Like it's easy to love yourpeople, isn't it?
Yeah, which is why it sucksstewarding people, because in
many cases, most organizationshave to live in a place of catch
(41:05):
and release and and your mosttalented people always leave
first because they can, becausethey can, yeah, because they can
, and so and so, the, the, thepain of stewardship.
And I wasn't.
I wasn't a good steward when Iwas in my, even when I was a
good division manager managing abunch of states, for I was not
a, I was not at a place ofstewardship yet, yeah, like it
(41:28):
was, it was every time somebodyyou love quit or turned on you,
right because 1099s, andemotional, like I mean, it was
like right, like oh, yeah yeah,finish him right.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Like you, you literally are demonstrating your
heart getting ripped out, and Iwould argue that you're
underplaying how painful thisactually is so am I right here
so painful, like.
So I want to, I want to stay onthis for a minute because you
know someone's going to listento this podcast and be like I
just don't want to do thisanymore because I keep losing my
best people or I train them andthen they start getting some
(42:05):
success and they go to acompetitor or something of that
nature, something we've allexperienced, right, yeah, so
like, how do we?
How do we get past the pain ofthat?
Or how do we work through thesuck of that to get on the other
side of going throughleadership to becoming a good
steward?
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And the answer is we talkedabout having a profession coach,
someone who can come along withyou in your profession, and the
answer is the pain never goesaway.
But just like when you burnyour hand on a stove, if you
were to put your hand back onthe stove, it wouldn't burn as
much.
Right, there's the professioncoach.
(42:44):
I'm also a big, huge advocateof a process coach, somebody I
hire who is mastery of a certainthing that is going to help me
install checks and balances.
So, so, the first thingsomebody comes to me.
(43:05):
If someone's like hey, I'm not,you can tell you're stewarding.
Well, by the way, uh, uh, uh.
If, if someone involves youdeeply in there, I'm, I'm
thinking of changing careers, orI'm leaving, or I have to go,
or or right, like, like.
If you're involved in thatlife-changing process like mike,
(43:27):
can I talk to his friend mike,not boss mike, right now?
Speaker 2 (43:30):
yeah, like and that by the way.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
that's not always, you don't always want that's not
fun.
That's not an invitation foreverybody to tell me their
problems, which you know I'm not.
I'm not great at that role.
That's not stewardship.
But but if someone is going tome, that role they're involving
me versus informing me Rightwhen it's just like hey, I'm,
I'm, I'm going somewhere else.
This is a two weeks notice orfour weeks notice or just ghost,
(43:54):
right, like people, just ghost,like that's a thing and, by the
way, that's a thing to endure,right.
But a process coach is going tosay, okay, let's look at the
process of events and let's lookat the formula that created
that result.
(44:14):
So the idea of a developmentpipeline is really a lot of what
we're talking about, everythingfrom delegation to what's the
career path thing, do you?
Susan Drum, one of my processcoaches, taught me about running
.
You guys know exit interviews,right?
Sure, I mean, her whole thingis like if you're running an
exit interview, you'reinterviewing them way too late.
(44:36):
So she was the first person Iever heard.
I know a lot of people say thisnow, but she was the one who
taught me how to run stayinterviews.
Oh yeah, and stay interviewsare simply like, let's sit down
with you.
Let's career path.
Let me tell you what could bean opportunity for you, what
can't be an opportunity for you.
Like, I work with a lot ofreally talented people that I
pay hourly and there's notfull-time salaried positions for
(44:57):
everybody.
So, as we career path, we haveto, and we draw it out.
When you get to this point,you're going to be on the cusp
of potentially outgrowing theorganization, and so one path is
this way.
One path is this way.
One path is this way.
Path is this way.
One path is this way.
(45:18):
One path is this way.
When you actually systematicallybuild into the process, catch
and release.
Now, all of a sudden, thatbecomes a recruiting tool, right
, and?
And that whole adage of of ifyou love something, set it free.
If it comes back to you, it'syours, if it doesn't, it was
never yours to begin with.
Like that's kind of what reallyreally really helped me, help
me flip that switch, and so, um,but I don't, I don't want to
(45:41):
limit process to just.
I mean, we're talking aboutleadership development and I
think everybody should have,everybody should be able to
articulate what is yourleadership development process,
and I also think people shouldbe able to articulate a good
leader.
Can I articulate who is in yourleadership development pipeline
?
One of the things we've talkedabout off camera, which I'm a
(46:01):
huge advocate of, is is jumpingrank, and so I'm not talking
about the cheesy like open doorpolicy I'm talking about.
I'm talking about I'm here.
I've got direct reports here.
They have people that they areraising up because they're
modeling me Right and I need toknow who these superstars are
(46:22):
and I need to create systematicsurface area with them.
It might be a once a month call, it might be hey, we're going
to work on a project together.
It might be.
Let's pull you into thisconversation and into the
discussion and let's create asituation where you know the
cliche at the end of the meeting, where it's like okay, great,
(46:43):
meeting everybody.
Hey, you know, alyssa, what doyou think?
Like be candid, right, yeah,and some organizations now
Alyssa's candid and they're like, yeah, speaker, totally spoken
to, that wasn't, we weren'tserious about that right, oh
yeah.
And then the other.
You know.
Now Alyssa says the thing whereit's like wait what?
Hold on, guys, everybody sitback down.
We got to finish this.
Okay, say what you said again,all right?
(47:04):
Hey, do you have the otternotes?
Let's look right, like thathappened recently with a gal
named Alyssa.
It's a situation of if we'renot, if we're not, if we don't
know who's in our pipeline andwe just assume that it is our
directs, or we don't havesomebody ready in the queue, or
(47:27):
we don't have a wish list.
I have a wish list of peoplethat I don't know how, I don't
know when, I don't know in whatcapacity, but I really want to
work with these people one dayon something.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
And I'm not just talking about a dream 100.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Like, uh, uh I think I saw Brunson is one of your
books down here he gets, he getsascribed to that, even though I
don't think that was purely hisconcept.
But but, the point being, like,I want to have my dream hundred
two of who I want to partnerwith and what I want to do and
who can be my referral partnersand so forth.
But but I want to make surethat, like I'm always thinking
talent first, yeah, which youknow summarized beautifully by
(48:09):
the book titled by Ben and DanBen Hardy, dan Sullivan, who,
not how.
Yeah, like when you find theright who's the who's the right,
who's, bring the how's yeah,like they will solve the
problems.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
I hope you enjoyed that time with Mike Monroe.
We have more to come from Mikein episode three, part two of
our interview with him.
Don't miss it.
Thanks for listening to theSherpa Leadership Podcast.
If this episode inspired you,please subscribe, leave a review
and share it with a fellowleader.
For more resources, you can goto SherpaConsultingGroupcom.
Remember that leadership is ajourney.
(48:42):
Every step you take matters.
Keep stepping.
We'll see you next time.
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