"I don't take advice from people that I wouldn't switch places with." This powerful declaration from Mike Monroe sets the tone for a conversation that cuts through typical leadership platitudes and reaches into the heart of what truly drives success: relationships.
Mike explores the transformative concept of the Scout Mindset versus the Soldier Mindset, drawing from Julia Galef's groundbreaking work. A scout approaches problems seeking truth and mapping reality accurately, while a soldier defends existing positions regardless of evidence. Almost instinctively, most leaders default to the soldier mentality, particularly when dealing with smaller projects where they feel comfortable claiming expertise. This tendency directly connects to what Mike calls "Bike Shed Theory" – our human propensity to spend disproportionate time discussing simple aspects of complex problems because they feel more accessible.
The discussion takes a profound turn as Mike vulnerably shares his experience navigating leadership through the sudden loss of his friend and business partner John Ruhlin, founder of Giftology. What emerges is a poignant testament to preparation meeting providence. Years before Ruhlin's passing, Mike had encouraged him to build aspects of the business that were "JNN" – John Not Needed – creating systems and developing leaders who could carry the mission forward. This foresight proved crucial in preserving John's legacy and continuing his work.
Throughout the conversation, Mike distinguishes between different types of coaching relationships – process coaches who install specific systems, project coaches who remove bottlenecks, and professional coaches who provide broader guidance. Each serves a unique function in leadership development, reinforcing his principle of selective learning: only taking advice from people whose position you'd genuinely consider trading for your own.
Ready to transform how you think about business relationships? Listen now to discover why relationships take you places that marketing, sales, and management simply cannot – and how to build connections that deliver infinite returns beyond conventional ROI.
Here’s those additional resources from today’s episode:
The Scout Mindset: Why Some People See Things Clearly and Others Don't
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Monroe (00:05):
I don't take advice from people that I
wouldn't switch places withRelationships.
Take you places that marketingcan't it.
Takes you places that salescan't Relationships.
Take you places that managementcan't Relationships.
Take you places that contracts,threats and fears and quotas
and all the things andincentives and do this, get that
kind of programs, all thosethings, yeah, relationships jump
(00:26):
them all.
Reed Moore (00:27):
You're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast,
your guide to climbing higher inlife and leadership.
I'm Reid Moore and, alongsideChase Williams, we're here to
help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead
with greater clarity and purpose.
Hey leaders, welcome back tothe Sherpa Leadership Podcast.
(00:52):
I'm Reed Moore, here with ChaseWilliams.
We're here to help you climbhigher in life and leadership.
We want to introduce a greatfriend of ours.
His name is Mike Monroe andthis is episode two, a two-part
series with Mike Monroe.
Hopefully you enjoy it.
Like in philosophy, there's thisidea of a false dichotomy,
(01:13):
right, and it shows up inmarriages, shows up in
relationships, right, like, amarriage is struggling and it's
like commit to death, right,like, just like, no
conversations, just, or likewe're out, and there's all of
these gradients in between.
And just thinking about, like,my own immaturity in leadership,
where there's there's this, um,there's this tendency to, uh,
to either like, I will do it orI will just dump it.
Right, it's like here's, here'ssix gradients, and when we show
(01:36):
up as immature peopledevelopers, I'll take
responsibility.
When I show up as an immaturepeople developer, um, I have the
tendency just to dump, right,like, and then other people have
this tendency just to hold on.
You know, you know, pry thisout of my cold dead hands.
And I love what you're saying,because there's this process
where I'm going to take peoplefrom here to here and there's
(01:57):
all of these stop goes, teachingmoments, opportunities to
correct before the cost isextravagantly high for a failure
.
How did you practically haveyou always just done that?
Or how did you practicallyfigure out?
Here's how I develop people.
Michael Monroe (02:15):
Well, I'll go back to coaching, because so
much of my coaching journey hasbeen informed and spoken into by
people that demonstrated,demonstrated mastery.
So when I hire a process coach,I mean this is a uh sounds a
little bit of a cynical kind ofrule, but I, I, uh, I don't take
advice from people that Iwouldn't switch places with,
(02:37):
okay, so.
So I'm not saying there aren'tlike great, like out of shape
trainers, because there are, butmostly, and that's tough, and,
by the way, and that's tough,and also training is such a
silly thing, because training isthe exact example of what we're
talking about earlier, right,where it's like oh, you have a
six pack, you're going to be atrainer, and it's like this
(02:59):
person is is not qualified,right, like Genetically gifted
yeah is is not qualified, right?
like genetically gifted, yeah.
Like like that is indeed athing, right?
Like if you look at the diet ofsome professional athletes, on
one hand, yeah, they burn a lotof calories.
On the other hand, I couldn'teat that, and like I go do three
iron men tomorrow and I wouldprobably not be able to finish
all those.
You know, insert food here,right, sure?
(03:20):
So?
So the idea of of um installingthe right process and putting
that in place is is to be really, really, really merciless about
who I'm going to take advicefrom, um, and so I actually
haven't had a leadership coachvery recently, but what I have
(03:41):
had is is process coaches.
In fact, I just hired one, wejust hired one now.
His name is Coach Mark MarkCosiglow, and Mark is probably
the greatest sales pipelinearchitect I've ever heard speak
and ever heard from, and it itwas again providential and
(04:04):
serendipitous how this happened.
I, you know, one of those Ican't sleep nights, so I
listened to a podcast and,before I know it, I'm on his
LinkedIn and I'm reading everypost he's ever read, and then
I'm like writing down and takingnotes and putting them in my
second brain and like I'm just,I'm just, you know, poor
Kaylee's over here.
Just you know, poor Kaylee'sover here.
It's one in the morning.
I connect with the guy and I'mlike, hey, just so, you know,
(04:25):
you know, just so, you're thesmartest dude I've ever heard on
this particular topic, right,and, and you know, hopefully it
connects with me back and,providentially, not only do you
connect with me back, but he'slike I'm not trying to sell you,
but I have an opening in, likeI don't know.
I'm like, oh right, and so thepower of that is is a process
(04:47):
coach in most cases.
Like I hired Mark, I alreadyknow his end date.
Like I hired him for a veryspecific period of time, yeah,
which, which creates an urgencyto make sure we get everything
we need out of the process, andwe're only trying to create this
one outcome.
And we're only trying to createthis one outcome.
And the outcome is do I knowwhat to do?
(05:08):
Do we do it right and can I doit consistently?
Yeah, okay, this could go 12months.
Like you're not going to dumpme if you, you know he's
launching another company.
It's going to be meteoric andand and so, um, but, uh, but I
think I've got, I think.
(05:29):
I got them on the hook for ayear here, but that's really,
really, really important to havethat.
Yeah and and one of the thingsusing your dichotomy mechanism
uh, I still do the.
I still do what I talked aboutwith Ryan.
Where isn't it more fun tothink like that?
I still have things that I post, so the board in my office I
(05:53):
still have things that I want tolook up and see, and I'm
fortunate now because we loveyou, Dad, right, Like all the
things are up there too.
I've got the kid's wall, but oneof the things that I've had
there recently written up isboth can be true, yeah, and, and
(06:14):
this is not one of the thingsthat really, really terrifies me
, um, societally it terrifies isa strong word, but but one of
the things I'm conscientious ofsociety is is, uh, uh, this
tribalism that has occurred Very, very polarized, Very polarized
, very over here and over here.
And if you're a believer andproponent of both can be true,
(06:35):
two things are true at the sametime.
Then what you do is youinherently invite yourself to
live in the messy middle, whichmeans you either don't share
your opinion with either ofthese groups or you're
surrounded by the people atthese groups and you just have
to not let it affect you, youknow, emotionally, spiritually,
relationally, which is which is,you know, kind of the order of
(06:55):
the day.
Everybody, everybody knows, but, um, it is to navigate the
nuance of leadership.
It takes a, it takes a scoutmindset, what's?
Chase Williams (07:09):
a scout mindset?
Michael Monroe (07:10):
Yeah, I love that you asked because I'm going
to do a little commercial for,for for this book here.
So the scout mindset is.
It's a book by Julia Galef.
The Scout Mindset is a book byJulia Galef and for somebody who
has project autonomy and who'sconstantly working and failing
forward as he works on project,the Scout Mindset is probably
(07:32):
one of the most important thingsI think anybody in leadership
can have.
The idea is there is a scoutand what a scout's principal
function is to do is to go mapthe land.
So take the binoculars, look atthe map.
Map is the mountain range whereI said it was.
Oh, this river actually tucksaround here and turns into a
little pond.
The pond's not on the map.
(07:53):
The scout deals in truth anddeals in facts, and so a scout
mindset is somebody who isdeeply committed to
interrogating reality anddiscovering truth, not what they
want to be true, which is astruggle of an innovator who so
badly, when they launch aprogram, wants it to be like,
(08:14):
and it can tell a narrative.
Here's why this is going towork.
Yeah, right, like that's partof the energy behind.
Let's do this.
Unfortunately, most people inleadership approach the world
with a soldier mindset, and asoldier mindset, which you could
probably already surmise, isthe idea of I'm going to defend
(08:34):
my thinking, my idea, what Ibelieve, oh, what I believe, and
the soldier mindset is reallynot conducive for it.
It can't coexist with greatleadership.
Reed Moore (08:51):
Makes sense right, and we've had this conversation.
Chase is an outstanding personto run ideas by, and part of the
reason is that when you gethigh on your own supply, yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's exactly itwhen you sniff your own exhaust.
Chase Williams (09:06):
Yeah, I call it when I talk about influencers,
I'm like, oh, this guy, this guylicks his own lollipop all day
long right everything he says isgenius yeah, yeah, he's
self-licking ice cream cones.
Michael Monroe (09:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah all.
Chase Williams (09:16):
Joking aside, we can all end up there oh my gosh
, yeah, right well becausethere's there's the intention.
Reed Moore (09:21):
No, because there's this tension like if I actually
care about this, I should beable to get passionate enough to
be able to push this out there.
Chase Williams (09:28):
Yeah, but man, if I protect it from reality,
there's no way the marketplaceis not going to just crush it at
significantly higher expenseyeah, not to mention, I think,
when you're, when you'resucceeding through others, right
, like the, the goal is youwould earn the right to
interrogate somebody's currentreality in a loving way.
Yeah, because, like you saidbefore, like if I care enough to
(09:50):
not let you stay where you'reat and you want something
different out of life or result,then hopefully I've earned the
right to be a scout for you andinterrogate your current reality
, your current excuses, yourcurrent way of thinking, your
current habits, so that I candemonstrate that there might be
a better way, there might be adifferent truth that leads you
where you want to go, right Iand I, by the way, both you
(10:13):
articulated that so much betterthat I did uh, and what I find
you guys familiar with bike shedtheory.
Michael Monroe (10:23):
Well, this is great, so so one of my directs
taught me this.
It was so good.
He's like, um, he's like I wantyou, we're going into a meeting
.
He's like I want you to watchwhat I perceive to be the
dynamics of this meeting.
I wasn't briefed, I wasn't, Iwasn't sure of of, by the way,
to protect, to protect the uh,uh, the uh, the guilty.
This was not a vector Cutcomeeting.
Reed Moore (10:44):
This is a different this is a different.
Michael Monroe (10:46):
You're like, wait a minute, what?
So I'm going into this meetingit's a board meeting, of the
thing and and he's like, uh,this is going to be a bike shed
meeting.
I'm like, what do you mean?
He goes um.
The theory of bike shed is thatif you bring a bunch of people
together around a conferencetable and and their job is to
talk about in design they've gotfour hours to design a nuclear
(11:06):
power plant they're going tospend three and a half hours
talking about the little bikeshed that goes on the side of
the nuclear power plant whereemployees ride their bike and
where can they park?
It's like, no, we need aslanted roof, but what if it
rains?
Well, we live in a windy area.
Do we need?
Right, like they're gonna, notthe important thing, not the
this, not the stuff thatrequires they're gonna focus on
(11:28):
on on what they, what theyreally really really like
insignificant crap, right, yeah?
And so the idea of bike shedtheory is that, uh, when you get
people uh thinking and focusedon on the stuff that doesn't
matter, you lose like you loseand you lose big.
(11:48):
The tie-in is that in uhmoments of uh simplicity, small
moments, project moments is whenwe tend to assume the most
amount of extra of expertise.
So so a great example as amarketer.
It's like everybody has anopinion on marketing because
(12:10):
everybody's exposed to marketing, just like everybody has an
opinion on a bike shed becausethey can visualize a bike shed
and understand a bike shed, eventhough they have no concept of
what a nuclear power plant couldbe or should be.
And so I find that the morefinite and smaller the project,
the more I tend to dissolve tosoldier mindset.
(12:31):
It was easy to be a studentwhen I, when Charles Orlando was
teaching me how to be a writer,or or the fellow I hired after
that with with David Perel, withRite of Passage, who just blew
my mind with what he taught mebecause I knew I was going into
that space of being a student.
But when I have a project or athing, a small thing, it's easy
(12:53):
to show up with a very loud,large opinion.
So this is why I hire a I meanI talked about a profession
coach, we talked about a processcoach.
Why hire a project coach?
And a project's coach number onejob is to seek, annihilate,
(13:13):
destroy the bottleneck thingsthat are going to keep me from
succeeding in this project Gotit.
So, for instance, for instance,we're in the middle of a book
launch and our project coach isthis incredible butt kicking gal
named Amber Vilhauer and, bythe way, I'm a I've put in my
10,000 hours of marketing.
I've I've forgotten more aboutbook marketing than than most
(13:35):
people will ever care to know,right?
And so now I show up with Amberand I know I'm going to show up
to Amber this way, thinkingokay, we should do this and this
and this and this and this andthis, and, and in certain cases
where like lockstep, and inother cases it's like she is
capable, she has the authority,competence and track record.
I can't tell you how many bestsellers, how many people have
(13:56):
hired her to write like yeah tobe like you're wrong.
Here's why which she does verykindly uh, some project coaches,
like you know, the Ironmancoach it's a project, right,
like I'm going to hire, right, Imean you've done an Ironman.
Like it makes a lot of sensewhy people hire an Ironman coach
, right.
(14:16):
And so that's the importantthing.
You have to understand thatwhen, whatever your next
obstacle or whatever the nextthing you're building is,
whatever the next thing that youhave to tackle, you have to
match.
You have to match the righttype of person, the right type
of expertise.
It's got to be synchronous,right.
It's got to be like, if you'reone of the one percent that can
(14:37):
do it with information, read thebook and then show up and ace
the test like that's awesome,but like it's, it's you're going
to need.
Reed Moore (14:43):
You're going to need so much more than that man I
love that, um, okay, so let metake the conversation in a
different direction.
Um, as Somebody who's inorganizational leadership,
you're leading for a long periodof time, which means you're
going to experience at somepoint, at multiple points,
exceptional levels of pain.
That's going to be pain fromrelationships, that's going to
(15:06):
be pain from failure, that'sgoing to be pain from personal,
from professional fill in theblank.
And you have to still movethings forward, because if you
don't, everything gets worseRight, and you have to be able
to move things forward becauseif you don't, everything gets
worse right, and you have to beable to move people forward.
Walk me through a season oflife where you have had to
navigate exceptional pain andstill performed and and
(15:29):
hopefully not come out the otherside with too much residue from
it yeah.
Michael Monroe (15:33):
So, uh, uh, and this is this, this is.
You know, I had a, I had afeeling you were going here
cause you guys have been, youknow my shoulders to cry on for.
For you know what we and I'mgoing to say we, because it
feels really, really, reallyunfair uh, for me to say, just
me, because you know, reelingfrom this tragedy, that that
(15:56):
I'll, that, I'll share and I'lldescribe here.
It's, it's, uh, uh, this is.
I mean this was probably one ofthe most tragic, terrible, uh,
I mean like, moments of my lifeand uh and uh, uh, I'm referring
(16:16):
to um August 2024, uh, my very,very, very dear friend, uh,
john Rulon, who, um, has been,um, uh, he was never a coach to
me, but boy did he introduced meto a lot of, to, to a lot like.
I've never met anybody aselegant and savvy and tactful
(16:43):
and generous as John, who wasjust able to, like we would call
it, snowball up.
So John's story is he was thisgoat-melting farm boy who his
pastoral friend, youth pastor,was like hey, you know, you're
(17:04):
on injury, leave, right.
He was working at a large cableinternet company and he fell
off a ladder and went on leaveand he wasn't too excited about
getting back up on the ladder.
So his youth pastor is likewould you ever want to try
selling Cutco?
And you know John was the kindof like yeah, let you know
what's Cutco, right?
Chase Williams (17:25):
Yes, what.
Michael Monroe (17:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
So.
So so him and I actuallylaunched as sales reps on the
exact same day, so not the sametraining class.
We didn't know this, but it wasJune 10th year 2000.
And so, providentially, we werealways very, very bonded and
connected by that, by the Cutcothing, and so I went to dabble
(17:51):
in the leadership vertical andbuild all this, and John became
not just the number one Cutcosales representative of all time
, you know, I would describeJohn as unbeaten, unscored upon,
like they had to take.
Chase Williams (18:10):
He's the GOAT.
He's the GOAT, bro.
Michael Monroe (18:12):
Like the GOAT and his company Giftology, which
you know he was often referredto as the goat of gifting,
because like and it's reallyfunny, by the way, getting to be
like really, really close toJohn and masterminding with him
and having this just incredible,you know, periphery and vision
into the business and so forth.
(18:32):
like people would assume that agifting company, like the job of
a gifting company, is like youand the elves and the oompa
loompas and it's likeeverybody's whistling and it's
like get the wrapping paperright, like like, yeah, you know
like totally not at all whatit's like right, like like what
(18:53):
this organization is is.
It is a, it's a relationshipagency and and you know, I can
go, I can go deep into that.
But but going back to yourquestion, so, so John has had
this incredible, profound impacton my life.
He's.
He's written the book Giftology.
Reed Moore (19:09):
It's right there, he's front and center on that.
Michael Monroe (19:11):
There it is, there it is.
Is this the hardcover?
Yeah, this is the hardcoverversion.
Is this the hardcover?
Yeah, this is the hardcoverversion.
When it first came out, how Igot introduced to John was there
was a Cutco knife on the cover,on the soft cover.
So my introduction to John wasyou know, hey, I think you
(19:33):
should meet this guy.
He's really supporting theCutco brand and obviously you
know him as the number one rephey, this is mike monroe and
digital strategy manager, allthose things.
So so I connect with johnimmediately.
We do a podcast and, and thefunny thing about john, um, he
was a, he was a great gifter.
He really was, uh, but he wasI've never seen anybody probably
(19:56):
better at forgiving andapologizing, wow.
And so we did a podcasttogether and I had heard all
about John Rulon's lavish,lavish gifts and like stuff he'd
done.
So I grew up in the town nextover from, uh, john Lee Dumas,
(20:19):
jld, who does entrepreneur onfire, really big, you know,
thought leader, uh, which againterm I hate, but, but, but you
know, sorry, john, but the ideais, uh is I heard that when
Rulon was on John Lee Dumas'podcast that Rulon bought him
like an infrared sauna rightLike a $2,000, $3,000.
(20:42):
So here's the problem when youhave that as your brand and now,
like you know, all right, youknow, mike, you know ready to do
a podcast, I wasn't expectinganything, but I kind of was
right.
So we, we do a great thing, wesell a bunch of books and and a
(21:02):
long period of time later, uh,uh, he facebook messages me,
which, oh, it pissed me off,because if you facebook message
me, what does that mean?
Means you didn't save my cellphone number.
That's the only way you knowhow to get a hold phone number.
That's the only way you knowhow to get ahold of me.
Yeah, that's the only way youknow how to get ahold of me,
which meant you didn't think mycell phone number was worth
(21:25):
saving.
So I remember getting thismessage and, uh, and, and he
pinged me, I mean he was, I meanhe was cutco trained baby, so
he knew how to no-transcript.
(22:02):
We loved it.
Uh, we got some really, reallyreally cool stories from it.
But, but, um, but at the time Iwas like I don't know what he
wants.
She's like, well, did you ask?
I'm like screw that guy.
Chase Williams (22:14):
I didn't, I didn't say I didn't say screw,
by the way, I was, I was very,very expletive and and I'm like
screw that guy.
Michael Monroe (22:16):
I didn't say screw, by the way, I was very,
very expletive and I'm like hedidn't save my number.
Reed Moore (22:22):
I'm Mike Monroe.
Do you know who I am?
Do you know?
Chase Williams (22:25):
who I am?
Do you know how important I am?
You should save my number.
Michael Monroe (22:29):
So anyway, my wife soldier mindset my wife's
like I think you should, I thinkyou should probably have a
conversation with, I think, youknow, sorry, to right like, yeah
, seems like a thing you should,seems like a thing to do, so so
anyway, um, we have aconversation and and uh, and in
(22:50):
that conversation, you know, I Ibecause I don't, I don't do
well with resentment I'm justlike hey, just so you know.
He just took it and he just didwhat I've seen him do many,
many times since then.
It wasn't even his, it's a booklaunch.
I didn't know at the time, ofcourse, I was one of a thousand
stops.
It's not his fault, it waschaotic and he's just like.
(23:14):
I'm so, so sorry.
So you better believe I haveyour number saved for now and
forevermore.
In fact I'll even put it in asMikey, because you'll be the
only Mikey in my phone.
So that's what he always calledme.
He always called me Mikey andhe'd always call me and say the
same thing.
He'd go Mikey, what am Iinterrupting?
Which I really appreciated,because the answer was always
(23:37):
something.
The answer is if you're not ascheduled call, I probably don't
want to talk to you, but I likeyou too much, so I'm going you
Right, so every time.
So John and I had a specialrelationship and some of the
things we had the chance, theopportunity to, to do and to
think and to thought leaderthrough.
(23:58):
I say thought leader throughbecause because when you're in
that industry as a thoughtleader and an influencer, there
is inherent systematic, uhincentive to kind of live in a
very superficial, narcissistic.
John was not.
(24:19):
He was the person in thatindustry that, like his yes
meant yes, his no meant no andhe was somehow like walked
through the sludge and the mudand especially being exposed to
this.
Now I know like the amount ofpeople Joe Polish always says
this.
He's like the amount of peopleJoe Polish always says this.
He's like the amount of peoplethat post bull crap on the
(24:40):
Internet to give the perceptionof success and wealth is
absolutely positively nauseating.
And that too has washed thatcynicism into me.
And so I've had the fortunateposition of I'm not saying John
had yes men.
If anything, he probably didn'tbecause he was so relationally
driven and authentic andvulnerable and all those things.
(25:00):
But but I was, I was kind ofhis anti-yes man.
I was always the guy.
You know, mikey, what am Iinterrupting?
Tell me why this is a bad idea,right, and and and there were
multiple times where I treatedwhat he said like a jump to
conclusions, matt Like if you'veever seen the movie Office
Space.
Like Matt with conclusions youcan jump to.
(25:23):
This idea is horrible, right,like, just not, just not like,
just not not kind.
And, by the way, when he hit itout of the park, I would tell
him and there were times whereI'm like you know, like he named
his, he named his membershipand coaching service.
The original name he's like youknow, we should call it an
acronym.
You know something like Rich.
(25:43):
I'm like that's the dumbestname.
Like leave the title, like letme tell you what to write.
Chase Williams (25:49):
You're acting as a scout, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
was acting as a scout.
Reed Moore (25:52):
That's exactly right it reminds me of when, Richard
Branson he was talking aboutthis and nobody wanted to tell
him no, and so they launchedvirgin condoms.
Turns out, it didn't work outso well Turns out it didn't work
out, not in that category.
Michael Monroe (26:08):
Yeah, it strikes me as an inherent contradiction
.
So anyway, long story short,john's thriving membership
community is named Rich and it'sbrilliant and it stands for a
thing.
And so I was.
I was there, were multipletimes where I'd come before him
and you know, hey, buddy, youwere right, I was wrong, which I
always be very, very publicabout, because when you're that,
when you're that kind of, youknow, that kind of role with
(26:28):
that.
So so it's August twenty twentyfour, and that night he was on
vacation with his family, hiswife, the extended family, so so
his wife's sister was there,the guy who I, I, who you know,
convinced me to get an aura ringand we would oftentimes go back
(26:48):
and forth and health data andencourage each other in our, in
our health journeys.
He went in from the pool and hecollapsed and he didn't wake up
.
There are moments, like when mygrandmother and grandfather died
(27:10):
.
You knew it was coming.
You knew it was coming.
Sad, terrible.
You love them so your heartbreaks.
You knew it was coming.
(27:36):
There are stories where, whereyou know, you go to your high
school reunion or you see theFacebook post and it's like the
kid that you haven't talked toin 15 or 20 years, something
happened to his wife, or this,or diagnosis with terminal Right
, and it's like, it'sheartbreaking because there is
the, there is the like.
So young he's my age it like,there's this real sense of
(27:56):
mortality, of, of like it couldbe, it could be.
So I've had that happen, I'vehad this happen.
I have never had both happen.
I've never.
I've never had, I've neverexperienced that.
(28:18):
And I can tell I want to go backto we, not me that a lot of
people, based on his celebrationof life, which was in St Louis,
and people just came from allover the world, came from all
(28:38):
over the world.
It reminds me.
It was about as close as Iimagine you could ever get to
the Tim McGraw song that youintroduced me to Standing Room
Only.
It was so beautiful and sotragic and such a reminder.
And so, going back to youroriginal question, I was part of
(28:59):
the organization and the groupthat helped Like do we still
have a company Right?
Like, like his team put on thecelebration of life and and and
there was a real sense of like.
I mean, I don't know how manytimes they got asked like, so
(29:23):
what are you going to write?
Like, like?
I mean like, what was thephrase you used originally when
you asked the question, thequestion of like when, when, how
, do you?
Reed Moore (29:32):
how do you continue to lead and influence and
encourage and cast vision andall the leadership things when
you know that the people thatyou're working with are like
they have to move forward?
You have to move forward andthere's so much just despair,
but you're a leader, yeah.
Michael Monroe (29:51):
The answer is I still don't know.
Chase Williams (29:54):
I still don't know.
There's no playbook?
Michael Monroe (30:05):
still don't know , I, I still don't know, there's
no playbook, uh.
But one thing I can say very,very in particular um, the idea
(30:26):
that, uh, god makes no mistakesand God knows everything that's
coming, I, I, I want to, youknow, I don't, I don't want to
stay away from the God makes nomistakes because it's, it's,
it's.
I'm sure there's people, andthey lose, people that get very
angry with God, rightfully like,rightfully so.
And God's big enough to takethat right, like you can
(30:47):
shoulder that, but but for me,it was really the space of of
God.
God knew and had every inklingand know-how, and so I'll give
you an example of this.
I want to say it was 2022.
(31:07):
John and Mai's conversationsstarted to kind of take a
different flavor, and and andone of the things that I
communicated with John very,very regularly, uh, was this
idea of you don't want to beMartha Stewart, you want to be
(31:29):
Martha Stewart enterprises.
You want to be the MarthaStewart that IPO'd.
You want to be the MarthaStewart Like'd.
You want to be the MarthaStewart Like.
You want to.
You want to like your love.
You're powerful, you are anengine.
No one can do what you do, andif you're the major cog in the
machine, you're the major clogin the machine.
And so in 2022, I started usinga phrase to try to drive into
(32:02):
him, which jnn, which was johnnot needed right and and so I I
would.
Would you know if he you know,mikey, you know question about
you know my team and this andthat, and they want to do this,
or what about jnn?
And he'd like yeah, so whatwould you do?
I'm like do you trust him?
Then go go right like and thisis part of the.
This is part of the.
Like john built an incrediblecompany, yeah, but but if he was
(32:24):
still with us he would be atthe apex.
This is why he had a businesspartner, rod, who deals in
enterprise level stuff.
Like like there would have beena skill set jump necessary to go
to and they were doing it, theywere doing it, they were doing
it, and part of this was thisconcept of John not needed,
where it was like open up avertical of your business where
(32:45):
you are totally a spectator mostpowerful moments I've ever had
in business and you hearfounders say stuff like this too
, where where one of the mostlife-changing moments in a
founder's company is whenthey're walking in the hall in
the company, walking through thehall of the company, and they
(33:05):
see two people, one of whom theydon't know, and they're talking
about fixing problems in thecompany.
Yeah, like that is a moment oflike wow's the I made it moment,
right, like holy cow, so so, sojohn and I are talking about
this and it's like create thisvertical and and he, he gets
(33:28):
this.
You know, little college internon his team, a gal named sar
Sarah Hardwick, mega talent, thedefinition of catch and release
, meaning, meaning, meaning,just so bright, so good, so
impressive, like you know.
Prominent position in hersorority, you know, started a
(33:49):
nonprofit or five or whatever.
Like I don't even know, likejust just super, super, like,
just buttoned up, talented,smart, and so now she builds out
this membership community, themembership community being this
thing where it's like let's seeif people would actually join a
(34:09):
gifting community.
And I think the mandate or theaspirational goal in her first
know, her first summer, which Ithink people were anticipating
were going to be her only summer, because it's like, you know,
go back to your senior year, youhave something to do.
It was like maybe we can get,maybe we can get, you know, 30
people in this thing, right,yeah, and.
And you know 287 people later,right, and.
(34:32):
And you know, hey, what'd youlearn in your internship?
You know, I learned I'm notgoing anywhere, right, wow, um,
right, like, that was the, thatwas the, that was the one of the
things there.
So, um, prior to, prior to Johnpassing, there was the entire
rich relationship society thathad been built in a place of
(34:53):
John not needed.
And, uh, this was in conjunctionwith him writing his second
book, right, and?
And you can only going back toyour question, as a leader, you
can only look at that, and, andeither everything in life is a
(35:15):
coincidence or nothing is, andif you believe that nothing is,
then there's a divine creatorwho is, who is architecting and
who's setting and taking care upof, of taking care of the
people who are, who are right,yeah, and, and, and.
So I look at those momentswhich were so ridiculous and
(35:36):
improbable improbable that Sarahgot hired.
Improbable of of J and N,improbable and like probably a
hundred things I don't even knowabout.
Right, like, like.
This is, the story is not aboutme whatsoever.
I look at all those things andand I derive strength because it
(35:56):
almost feels like, like, and,and I don't want to put words in
in rod's mouth of the giftologyteam, but there's this real
sense of like, if, if you're noton mission now, if you avoid
the mission and the pain and thechallenge, yeah, it's like
jonah running away to get eatenby the whale.
Like it is clear, yeah, whatyou are here to do.
Reed Moore (36:19):
He lived for this, he died for this and we are the
legacy.
Michael Monroe (36:23):
Yes, yes, and, and here's the great thing about
, and here's the rallying crywith john, and, and we, like so
many people, said this, and thenthey said it at celebration of
life.
It was never about glory ofJohn, it was always about glory
to God, and this is how we livedthe mission.
Reed Moore (36:42):
Just thinking about you know all of the things you
talked about with you know withdeveloping people and then how
you help that organizationdevelop their people, not
knowing how important it wasgoing to be, and then just to
watch you love and lead um in inthis last season, uh, because
(37:02):
we've been able to to kind ofshare in this journey, not
nearly to the level that you youhave had to to to go through,
but it's just really a testamentto your leadership and to your
you know.
It makes me think, like youknow, with with John is like you
know he loved God first andthen the second piece of that,
from everything I know about himfrom you and talking to him a
couple of times, is he servedpeople.
Michael Monroe (37:22):
Everything you said is accurate and I am.
I am grossly underselling it,not for any strategic or
communicative reason, but justthe fact that I don't.
I don't know if there's enoughtime to be able to like, I don't
even know if I have the wordsto give people the feel, but I
think, in that note, going backto, two things can be true.
First thing is the book isgoing to launch, the company is
(37:48):
going to win, the company isgoing to do well, the mission is
going to live on, it's going tobe stronger than ever, and so
John not needed, but, on theother hand, like guys, like john
will always be needed.
Yeah, and, and I think, at thispoint of human history where
(38:09):
tribalism and polarization andalgorithms and technology are
eating the world, and youhaven't seen, we haven't seen
anything yet.
We haven't even made ai thatcan think for itself.
Yet that's coming.
Let's add some super computersto that, and and and that's
going to be fun, and we're inthe greatest experiment in human
history, which is for many,many, many, many years.
(38:34):
Let's give humans and childrenscreens that are architecturally
engineered and developed tokeep their attention and reward
their dopamine through simpleclicks.
Let's design companies thathave attention engineers meant
to keep people online on thisscreen for as long as possible
so we can sell advertising.
And let's if I'm the executivesof that company, let's actually
(38:55):
discourage my own children fromusing this technology, because
we know how absolutely insanelydopamine destroying it is.
Yeah, I think in that world andin that environment not to
sound dystopian yeah, I thinkthat relationship is alive and
well and more important thanever.
(39:16):
Yeah, and John is one of manymessengers, and more so than
anything.
I hope that his message, I hopehis message lives on.
Reed Moore (39:24):
Yeah, well, one of the things I guess just wrap up
with is I know that you areinstrumental in bringing the
thoughts that he had put afterGiftology together, of thoughts
that he had put after giftologytogether, and um, and I believe
there's a book that's coming outthat john wrote that you were
instrumental in putting together.
You want to give us a sneakpeek?
Michael Monroe (39:44):
I love marketing , I can do.
I can do commercials, I can docommercials.
So, um, uh, books are a greatexample of the first layer of
transformation, which is knowingwhat to do.
But completely, completelycan't interact with a book,
right?
So so, first book, giftology.
Incredible job of teaching whatto do when it comes to like,
(40:09):
hey, you should take giftingseriously.
This is what makes good gifts.
This is what makes bad gifts.
The second book is calledBeyond Giftology.
This is what makes bad gifts.
The second book is called BeyondGiftology and you know the
cover is a testimony torelationships, take you to
places up and to the right, andit's also very you know people
have referred to it as thestairway of heaven or stairway
to heaven, which which I like,and I like that.
(40:39):
You got the black book,giftology, the white book,
beyond Giftology, but the ideais this is the book that teaches
people how to earn endless wordof mouth through the
transformation of referralpartners, and so there's a lot
of literature out there abouthow to get referrals, how to ask
for referrals.
A lot of the content is exactlythat Ask, ask again, ask more,
show up to the network meetings,do these things right.
(40:59):
Just got to get your foot inthe door.
Father-in-law, father-in-lawadvice you just gotta, you just
gotta get your name out there,son, like just go out there,
right, uh, uh, uh, yeah.
But but that's not, that's not.
That's not.
It's not the artsy way of doing.
That's not how john did it.
It's not how john, that's nothow john went from you, not the
artsy way of doing.
That's not how john did it.
It's not how john.
That's not how john went fromyou know, goat milking, farm boy
(41:19):
to falling off a ladder, toselling knives, to skip some
steps, but but private jets with, with billionaires, and and you
know, yeah, yeah.
I'm excited for the book, I'mexcited for the book launch.
I'm excited for for really, themessage, because it teaches uh,
the system of like here is howto um, here is how to create ror
(41:49):
, which we all know what roi isvery, very transactional.
I put in a dollar, I get back adollar forty.
But the thing that's so greatabout ROR is it might not be
1.4x, might not be 2x.
Return on relationship could be10x.
Sure, could be 100x.
Infinite yeah, could literallybe infinite.
(42:10):
Could be life changing, couldbe soul changing.
Yeah, like could be theconversation.
Introduce me to the person whohad the conversation that
changed everything, that led meto Jesus, that led me Right.
Like like relationships and Isay this is a 10,000 hour
marketer and salesperson.
I've done, done my time, boththose worlds.
I say this as as hands downrelationships take you places
that marketing can't.
Takes you place that salescan't.
(42:31):
Relationships take you placethat management can't.
Relationships take you placesthat marketing can't.
It takes you places that salescan't.
Relationships take you placesthat management can't.
Relationships take you placesthat contracts, threats and
fears and quotas and all thethings and incentives and do
this, get that kind of programs,all those things.
Relationships trump them all.
It's not who you know, it's whoyou know who likes you, who
trusts you, who will introduceyou.
Reed Moore (42:52):
Thank you, man.
Chase Williams (43:00):
I appreciate you being here.
Yep, this is great.
Thanks, buddy, always apleasure.
Thanks, all right everybody.
Thanks for listening to theSherpa Leadership Podcast.
If this episode inspired you,don't forget to subscribe, leave
a review or share with yourfavorite leader.
For more tools and resources,you can go to
sherpaconsultinggroupcom.
Remember that leadership is ajourney and every step you take
matters.
We'll see you next time.
Take care, guys.
I don't take advice from people that I
wouldn't switch places withRelationships.
Take you places that marketingcan't it.
Takes you places that salescan't Relationships.
Take you places that managementcan't Relationships.
Take you places that contracts,threats and fears and quotas
and all the things andincentives and do this, get that
kind of programs, all thosethings, yeah, relationships jump
(00:26):
them all.
Reed Moore (00:27):
You're listening to the Sherpa Leadership Podcast,
your guide to climbing higher inlife and leadership.
I'm Reid Moore and, alongsideChase Williams, we're here to
help you break through obstacles, scale your potential and lead
with greater clarity and purpose.
Hey leaders, welcome back tothe Sherpa Leadership Podcast.
(00:52):
I'm Reed Moore, here with ChaseWilliams.
We're here to help you climbhigher in life and leadership.
We want to introduce a greatfriend of ours.
His name is Mike Monroe andthis is episode two, a two-part
series with Mike Monroe.
Hopefully you enjoy it.
Like in philosophy, there's thisidea of a false dichotomy,
(01:13):
right, and it shows up inmarriages, shows up in
relationships, right, like, amarriage is struggling and it's
like commit to death, right,like, just like, no
conversations, just, or likewe're out, and there's all of
these gradients in between.
And just thinking about, like,my own immaturity in leadership,
where there's there's this, um,there's this tendency to, uh,
to either like, I will do it orI will just dump it.
Right, it's like here's, here'ssix gradients, and when we show
(01:36):
up as immature peopledevelopers, I'll take
responsibility.
When I show up as an immaturepeople developer, um, I have the
tendency just to dump, right,like, and then other people have
this tendency just to hold on.
You know, you know, pry thisout of my cold dead hands.
And I love what you're saying,because there's this process
where I'm going to take peoplefrom here to here and there's
(01:57):
all of these stop goes, teachingmoments, opportunities to
correct before the cost isextravagantly high for a failure
.
How did you practically haveyou always just done that?
Or how did you practicallyfigure out?
Here's how I develop people.
Michael Monroe (02:15):
Well, I'll go back to coaching, because so
much of my coaching journey hasbeen informed and spoken into by
people that demonstrated,demonstrated mastery.
So when I hire a process coach,I mean this is a uh sounds a
little bit of a cynical kind ofrule, but I, I, uh, I don't take
advice from people that Iwouldn't switch places with,
(02:37):
okay, so.
So I'm not saying there aren'tlike great, like out of shape
trainers, because there are, butmostly, and that's tough, and,
by the way, and that's tough,and also training is such a
silly thing, because training isthe exact example of what we're
talking about earlier, right,where it's like oh, you have a
six pack, you're going to be atrainer, and it's like this
(02:59):
person is is not qualified,right, like Genetically gifted
yeah is is not qualified, right?
like genetically gifted, yeah.
Like like that is indeed athing, right?
Like if you look at the diet ofsome professional athletes, on
one hand, yeah, they burn a lotof calories.
On the other hand, I couldn'teat that, and like I go do three
iron men tomorrow and I wouldprobably not be able to finish
all those.
You know, insert food here,right, sure?
(03:20):
So?
So the idea of of um installingthe right process and putting
that in place is is to be really, really, really merciless about
who I'm going to take advicefrom, um, and so I actually
haven't had a leadership coachvery recently, but what I have
(03:41):
had is is process coaches.
In fact, I just hired one, wejust hired one now.
His name is Coach Mark MarkCosiglow, and Mark is probably
the greatest sales pipelinearchitect I've ever heard speak
and ever heard from, and it itwas again providential and
(04:04):
serendipitous how this happened.
I, you know, one of those Ican't sleep nights, so I
listened to a podcast and,before I know it, I'm on his
LinkedIn and I'm reading everypost he's ever read, and then
I'm like writing down and takingnotes and putting them in my
second brain and like I'm just,I'm just, you know, poor
Kaylee's over here.
Just you know, poor Kaylee'sover here.
It's one in the morning.
I connect with the guy and I'mlike, hey, just so, you know,
(04:25):
you know, just so, you're thesmartest dude I've ever heard on
this particular topic, right,and, and you know, hopefully it
connects with me back and,providentially, not only do you
connect with me back, but he'slike I'm not trying to sell you,
but I have an opening in, likeI don't know.
I'm like, oh right, and so thepower of that is is a process
(04:47):
coach in most cases.
Like I hired Mark, I alreadyknow his end date.
Like I hired him for a veryspecific period of time, yeah,
which, which creates an urgencyto make sure we get everything
we need out of the process, andwe're only trying to create this
one outcome.
And we're only trying to createthis one outcome.
And the outcome is do I knowwhat to do?
(05:08):
Do we do it right and can I doit consistently?
Yeah, okay, this could go 12months.
Like you're not going to dumpme if you, you know he's
launching another company.
It's going to be meteoric andand and so, um, but, uh, but I
think I've got, I think.
(05:29):
I got them on the hook for ayear here, but that's really,
really, really important to havethat.
Yeah and and one of the thingsusing your dichotomy mechanism
uh, I still do the.
I still do what I talked aboutwith Ryan.
Where isn't it more fun tothink like that?
I still have things that I post, so the board in my office I
(05:53):
still have things that I want tolook up and see, and I'm
fortunate now because we loveyou, Dad, right, Like all the
things are up there too.
I've got the kid's wall, but oneof the things that I've had
there recently written up isboth can be true, yeah, and, and
(06:14):
this is not one of the thingsthat really, really terrifies me
, um, societally it terrifies isa strong word, but but one of
the things I'm conscientious ofsociety is is, uh, uh, this
tribalism that has occurred Very, very polarized, Very polarized
, very over here and over here.
And if you're a believer andproponent of both can be true,
(06:35):
two things are true at the sametime.
Then what you do is youinherently invite yourself to
live in the messy middle, whichmeans you either don't share
your opinion with either ofthese groups or you're
surrounded by the people atthese groups and you just have
to not let it affect you, youknow, emotionally, spiritually,
relationally, which is which is,you know, kind of the order of
(06:55):
the day.
Everybody, everybody knows, but, um, it is to navigate the
nuance of leadership.
It takes a, it takes a scoutmindset, what's?
Chase Williams (07:09):
a scout mindset?
Michael Monroe (07:10):
Yeah, I love that you asked because I'm going
to do a little commercial for,for for this book here.
So the scout mindset is.
It's a book by Julia Galef.
The Scout Mindset is a book byJulia Galef and for somebody who
has project autonomy and who'sconstantly working and failing
forward as he works on project,the Scout Mindset is probably
(07:32):
one of the most important thingsI think anybody in leadership
can have.
The idea is there is a scoutand what a scout's principal
function is to do is to go mapthe land.
So take the binoculars, look atthe map.
Map is the mountain range whereI said it was.
Oh, this river actually tucksaround here and turns into a
little pond.
The pond's not on the map.
(07:53):
The scout deals in truth anddeals in facts, and so a scout
mindset is somebody who isdeeply committed to
interrogating reality anddiscovering truth, not what they
want to be true, which is astruggle of an innovator who so
badly, when they launch aprogram, wants it to be like,
(08:14):
and it can tell a narrative.
Here's why this is going towork.
Yeah, right, like that's partof the energy behind.
Let's do this.
Unfortunately, most people inleadership approach the world
with a soldier mindset, and asoldier mindset, which you could
probably already surmise, isthe idea of I'm going to defend
(08:34):
my thinking, my idea, what Ibelieve, oh, what I believe, and
the soldier mindset is reallynot conducive for it.
It can't coexist with greatleadership.
Reed Moore (08:51):
Makes sense right, and we've had this conversation.
Chase is an outstanding personto run ideas by, and part of the
reason is that when you gethigh on your own supply, yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's exactly itwhen you sniff your own exhaust.
Chase Williams (09:06):
Yeah, I call it when I talk about influencers,
I'm like, oh, this guy, this guylicks his own lollipop all day
long right everything he says isgenius yeah, yeah, he's
self-licking ice cream cones.
Michael Monroe (09:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah all.
Chase Williams (09:16):
Joking aside, we can all end up there oh my gosh
, yeah, right well becausethere's there's the intention.
Reed Moore (09:21):
No, because there's this tension like if I actually
care about this, I should beable to get passionate enough to
be able to push this out there.
Chase Williams (09:28):
Yeah, but man, if I protect it from reality,
there's no way the marketplaceis not going to just crush it at
significantly higher expenseyeah, not to mention, I think,
when you're, when you'resucceeding through others, right
, like the, the goal is youwould earn the right to
interrogate somebody's currentreality in a loving way.
Yeah, because, like you saidbefore, like if I care enough to
(09:50):
not let you stay where you'reat and you want something
different out of life or result,then hopefully I've earned the
right to be a scout for you andinterrogate your current reality
, your current excuses, yourcurrent way of thinking, your
current habits, so that I candemonstrate that there might be
a better way, there might be adifferent truth that leads you
where you want to go, right Iand I, by the way, both you
(10:13):
articulated that so much betterthat I did uh, and what I find
you guys familiar with bike shedtheory.
Michael Monroe (10:23):
Well, this is great, so so one of my directs
taught me this.
It was so good.
He's like, um, he's like I wantyou, we're going into a meeting
.
He's like I want you to watchwhat I perceive to be the
dynamics of this meeting.
I wasn't briefed, I wasn't, Iwasn't sure of of, by the way,
to protect, to protect the uh,uh, the uh, the guilty.
This was not a vector Cutcomeeting.
Reed Moore (10:44):
This is a different this is a different.
Michael Monroe (10:46):
You're like, wait a minute, what?
So I'm going into this meetingit's a board meeting, of the
thing and and he's like, uh,this is going to be a bike shed
meeting.
I'm like, what do you mean?
He goes um.
The theory of bike shed is thatif you bring a bunch of people
together around a conferencetable and and their job is to
talk about in design they've gotfour hours to design a nuclear
(11:06):
power plant they're going tospend three and a half hours
talking about the little bikeshed that goes on the side of
the nuclear power plant whereemployees ride their bike and
where can they park?
It's like, no, we need aslanted roof, but what if it
rains?
Well, we live in a windy area.
Do we need?
Right, like they're gonna, notthe important thing, not the
this, not the stuff thatrequires they're gonna focus on
(11:28):
on on what they, what theyreally really really like
insignificant crap, right, yeah?
And so the idea of bike shedtheory is that, uh, when you get
people uh thinking and focusedon on the stuff that doesn't
matter, you lose like you loseand you lose big.
(11:48):
The tie-in is that in uhmoments of uh simplicity, small
moments, project moments is whenwe tend to assume the most
amount of extra of expertise.
So so a great example as amarketer.
It's like everybody has anopinion on marketing because
(12:10):
everybody's exposed to marketing, just like everybody has an
opinion on a bike shed becausethey can visualize a bike shed
and understand a bike shed, eventhough they have no concept of
what a nuclear power plant couldbe or should be.
And so I find that the morefinite and smaller the project,
the more I tend to dissolve tosoldier mindset.
(12:31):
It was easy to be a studentwhen I, when Charles Orlando was
teaching me how to be a writer,or or the fellow I hired after
that with with David Perel, withRite of Passage, who just blew
my mind with what he taught mebecause I knew I was going into
that space of being a student.
But when I have a project or athing, a small thing, it's easy
(12:53):
to show up with a very loud,large opinion.
So this is why I hire a I meanI talked about a profession
coach, we talked about a processcoach.
Why hire a project coach?
And a project's coach number onejob is to seek, annihilate,
(13:13):
destroy the bottleneck thingsthat are going to keep me from
succeeding in this project Gotit.
So, for instance, for instance,we're in the middle of a book
launch and our project coach isthis incredible butt kicking gal
named Amber Vilhauer and, bythe way, I'm a I've put in my
10,000 hours of marketing.
I've I've forgotten more aboutbook marketing than than most
(13:35):
people will ever care to know,right?
And so now I show up with Amberand I know I'm going to show up
to Amber this way, thinkingokay, we should do this and this
and this and this and this andthis, and, and in certain cases
where like lockstep, and inother cases it's like she is
capable, she has the authority,competence and track record.
I can't tell you how many bestsellers, how many people have
(13:56):
hired her to write like yeah tobe like you're wrong.
Here's why which she does verykindly uh, some project coaches,
like you know, the Ironmancoach it's a project, right,
like I'm going to hire, right, Imean you've done an Ironman.
Like it makes a lot of sensewhy people hire an Ironman coach
, right.
(14:16):
And so that's the importantthing.
You have to understand thatwhen, whatever your next
obstacle or whatever the nextthing you're building is,
whatever the next thing that youhave to tackle, you have to
match.
You have to match the righttype of person, the right type
of expertise.
It's got to be synchronous,right.
It's got to be like, if you'reone of the one percent that can
(14:37):
do it with information, read thebook and then show up and ace
the test like that's awesome,but like it's, it's you're going
to need.
Reed Moore (14:43):
You're going to need so much more than that man I
love that, um, okay, so let metake the conversation in a
different direction.
Um, as Somebody who's inorganizational leadership,
you're leading for a long periodof time, which means you're
going to experience at somepoint, at multiple points,
exceptional levels of pain.
That's going to be pain fromrelationships, that's going to
(15:06):
be pain from failure, that'sgoing to be pain from personal,
from professional fill in theblank.
And you have to still movethings forward, because if you
don't, everything gets worseRight, and you have to be able
to move things forward becauseif you don't, everything gets
worse right, and you have to beable to move people forward.
Walk me through a season oflife where you have had to
navigate exceptional pain andstill performed and and
(15:29):
hopefully not come out the otherside with too much residue from
it yeah.
Michael Monroe (15:33):
So, uh, uh, and this is this, this is.
You know, I had a, I had afeeling you were going here
cause you guys have been, youknow my shoulders to cry on for.
For you know what we and I'mgoing to say we, because it
feels really, really, reallyunfair uh, for me to say, just
me, because you know, reelingfrom this tragedy, that that
(15:56):
I'll, that, I'll share and I'lldescribe here.
It's, it's, uh, uh, this is.
I mean this was probably one ofthe most tragic, terrible, uh,
I mean like, moments of my lifeand uh and uh, uh, I'm referring
(16:16):
to um August 2024, uh, my very,very, very dear friend, uh,
john Rulon, who, um, has been,um, uh, he was never a coach to
me, but boy did he introduced meto a lot of, to, to a lot like.
I've never met anybody aselegant and savvy and tactful
(16:43):
and generous as John, who wasjust able to, like we would call
it, snowball up.
So John's story is he was thisgoat-melting farm boy who his
pastoral friend, youth pastor,was like hey, you know, you're
(17:04):
on injury, leave, right.
He was working at a large cableinternet company and he fell
off a ladder and went on leaveand he wasn't too excited about
getting back up on the ladder.
So his youth pastor is likewould you ever want to try
selling Cutco?
And you know John was the kindof like yeah, let you know
what's Cutco, right?
Chase Williams (17:25):
Yes, what.
Michael Monroe (17:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
So.
So so him and I actuallylaunched as sales reps on the
exact same day, so not the sametraining class.
We didn't know this, but it wasJune 10th year 2000.
And so, providentially, we werealways very, very bonded and
connected by that, by the Cutcothing, and so I went to dabble
(17:51):
in the leadership vertical andbuild all this, and John became
not just the number one Cutcosales representative of all time
, you know, I would describeJohn as unbeaten, unscored upon,
like they had to take.
Chase Williams (18:10):
He's the GOAT.
He's the GOAT, bro.
Michael Monroe (18:12):
Like the GOAT and his company Giftology, which
you know he was often referredto as the goat of gifting,
because like and it's reallyfunny, by the way, getting to be
like really, really close toJohn and masterminding with him
and having this just incredible,you know, periphery and vision
into the business and so forth.
(18:32):
like people would assume that agifting company, like the job of
a gifting company, is like youand the elves and the oompa
loompas and it's likeeverybody's whistling and it's
like get the wrapping paperright, like like, yeah, you know
like totally not at all whatit's like right, like like what
(18:53):
this organization is is.
It is a, it's a relationshipagency and and you know, I can
go, I can go deep into that.
But but going back to yourquestion, so, so John has had
this incredible, profound impacton my life.
He's.
He's written the book Giftology.
Reed Moore (19:09):
It's right there, he's front and center on that.
Michael Monroe (19:11):
There it is, there it is.
Is this the hardcover?
Yeah, this is the hardcoverversion.
Is this the hardcover?
Yeah, this is the hardcoverversion.
When it first came out, how Igot introduced to John was there
was a Cutco knife on the cover,on the soft cover.
So my introduction to John wasyou know, hey, I think you
(19:33):
should meet this guy.
He's really supporting theCutco brand and obviously you
know him as the number one rephey, this is mike monroe and
digital strategy manager, allthose things.
So so I connect with johnimmediately.
We do a podcast and, and thefunny thing about john, um, he
was a, he was a great gifter.
He really was, uh, but he wasI've never seen anybody probably
(19:56):
better at forgiving andapologizing, wow.
And so we did a podcasttogether and I had heard all
about John Rulon's lavish,lavish gifts and like stuff he'd
done.
So I grew up in the town nextover from, uh, john Lee Dumas,
(20:19):
jld, who does entrepreneur onfire, really big, you know,
thought leader, uh, which againterm I hate, but, but, but you
know, sorry, john, but the ideais, uh is I heard that when
Rulon was on John Lee Dumas'podcast that Rulon bought him
like an infrared sauna rightLike a $2,000, $3,000.
(20:42):
So here's the problem when youhave that as your brand and now,
like you know, all right, youknow, mike, you know ready to do
a podcast, I wasn't expectinganything, but I kind of was
right.
So we, we do a great thing, wesell a bunch of books and and a
(21:02):
long period of time later, uh,uh, he facebook messages me,
which, oh, it pissed me off,because if you facebook message
me, what does that mean?
Means you didn't save my cellphone number.
That's the only way you knowhow to get a hold phone number.
That's the only way you knowhow to get ahold of me.
Yeah, that's the only way youknow how to get ahold of me,
which meant you didn't think mycell phone number was worth
(21:25):
saving.
So I remember getting thismessage and, uh, and, and he
pinged me, I mean he was, I meanhe was cutco trained baby, so
he knew how to no-transcript.
(22:02):
We loved it.
Uh, we got some really, reallyreally cool stories from it.
But, but, um, but at the time Iwas like I don't know what he
wants.
She's like, well, did you ask?
I'm like screw that guy.
Chase Williams (22:14):
I didn't, I didn't say I didn't say screw,
by the way, I was, I was very,very expletive and and I'm like
screw that guy.
Michael Monroe (22:16):
I didn't say screw, by the way, I was very,
very expletive and I'm like hedidn't save my number.
Reed Moore (22:22):
I'm Mike Monroe.
Do you know who I am?
Do you know?
Chase Williams (22:25):
who I am?
Do you know how important I am?
You should save my number.
Michael Monroe (22:29):
So anyway, my wife soldier mindset my wife's
like I think you should, I thinkyou should probably have a
conversation with, I think, youknow, sorry, to right like, yeah
, seems like a thing you should,seems like a thing to do, so so
anyway, um, we have aconversation and and uh, and in
(22:50):
that conversation, you know, I Ibecause I don't, I don't do
well with resentment I'm justlike hey, just so you know.
He just took it and he just didwhat I've seen him do many,
many times since then.
It wasn't even his, it's a booklaunch.
I didn't know at the time, ofcourse, I was one of a thousand
stops.
It's not his fault, it waschaotic and he's just like.
(23:14):
I'm so, so sorry.
So you better believe I haveyour number saved for now and
forevermore.
In fact I'll even put it in asMikey, because you'll be the
only Mikey in my phone.
So that's what he always calledme.
He always called me Mikey andhe'd always call me and say the
same thing.
He'd go Mikey, what am Iinterrupting?
Which I really appreciated,because the answer was always
(23:37):
something.
The answer is if you're not ascheduled call, I probably don't
want to talk to you, but I likeyou too much, so I'm going you
Right, so every time.
So John and I had a specialrelationship and some of the
things we had the chance, theopportunity to, to do and to
think and to thought leaderthrough.
(23:58):
I say thought leader throughbecause because when you're in
that industry as a thoughtleader and an influencer, there
is inherent systematic, uhincentive to kind of live in a
very superficial, narcissistic.
John was not.
(24:19):
He was the person in thatindustry that, like his yes
meant yes, his no meant no andhe was somehow like walked
through the sludge and the mudand especially being exposed to
this.
Now I know like the amount ofpeople Joe Polish always says
this.
He's like the amount of peopleJoe Polish always says this.
He's like the amount of peoplethat post bull crap on the
(24:40):
Internet to give the perceptionof success and wealth is
absolutely positively nauseating.
And that too has washed thatcynicism into me.
And so I've had the fortunateposition of I'm not saying John
had yes men.
If anything, he probably didn'tbecause he was so relationally
driven and authentic andvulnerable and all those things.
(25:00):
But but I was, I was kind ofhis anti-yes man.
I was always the guy.
You know, mikey, what am Iinterrupting?
Tell me why this is a bad idea,right, and and and there were
multiple times where I treatedwhat he said like a jump to
conclusions, matt Like if you'veever seen the movie Office
Space.
Like Matt with conclusions youcan jump to.
(25:23):
This idea is horrible, right,like, just not, just not like,
just not not kind.
And, by the way, when he hit itout of the park, I would tell
him and there were times whereI'm like you know, like he named
his, he named his membershipand coaching service.
The original name he's like youknow, we should call it an
acronym.
You know something like Rich.
(25:43):
I'm like that's the dumbestname.
Like leave the title, like letme tell you what to write.
Chase Williams (25:49):
You're acting as a scout, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
was acting as a scout.
Reed Moore (25:52):
That's exactly right it reminds me of when, Richard
Branson he was talking aboutthis and nobody wanted to tell
him no, and so they launchedvirgin condoms.
Turns out, it didn't work outso well Turns out it didn't work
out, not in that category.
Michael Monroe (26:08):
Yeah, it strikes me as an inherent contradiction
.
So anyway, long story short,john's thriving membership
community is named Rich and it'sbrilliant and it stands for a
thing.
And so I was.
I was there, were multipletimes where I'd come before him
and you know, hey, buddy, youwere right, I was wrong, which I
always be very, very publicabout, because when you're that,
when you're that kind of, youknow, that kind of role with
(26:28):
that.
So so it's August twenty twentyfour, and that night he was on
vacation with his family, hiswife, the extended family, so so
his wife's sister was there,the guy who I, I, who you know,
convinced me to get an aura ringand we would oftentimes go back
(26:48):
and forth and health data andencourage each other in our, in
our health journeys.
He went in from the pool and hecollapsed and he didn't wake up
.
There are moments, like when mygrandmother and grandfather died
(27:10):
.
You knew it was coming.
You knew it was coming.
Sad, terrible.
You love them so your heartbreaks.
You knew it was coming.
(27:36):
There are stories where, whereyou know, you go to your high
school reunion or you see theFacebook post and it's like the
kid that you haven't talked toin 15 or 20 years, something
happened to his wife, or this,or diagnosis with terminal Right
, and it's like, it'sheartbreaking because there is
the, there is the like.
So young he's my age it like,there's this real sense of
(27:56):
mortality, of, of like it couldbe, it could be.
So I've had that happen, I'vehad this happen.
I have never had both happen.
I've never.
I've never had, I've neverexperienced that.
(28:18):
And I can tell I want to go backto we, not me that a lot of
people, based on his celebrationof life, which was in St Louis,
and people just came from allover the world, came from all
(28:38):
over the world.
It reminds me.
It was about as close as Iimagine you could ever get to
the Tim McGraw song that youintroduced me to Standing Room
Only.
It was so beautiful and sotragic and such a reminder.
And so, going back to youroriginal question, I was part of
(28:59):
the organization and the groupthat helped Like do we still
have a company Right?
Like, like his team put on thecelebration of life and and and
there was a real sense of like.
I mean, I don't know how manytimes they got asked like, so
(29:23):
what are you going to write?
Like, like?
I mean like, what was thephrase you used originally when
you asked the question, thequestion of like when, when, how
, do you?
Reed Moore (29:32):
how do you continue to lead and influence and
encourage and cast vision andall the leadership things when
you know that the people thatyou're working with are like
they have to move forward?
You have to move forward andthere's so much just despair,
but you're a leader, yeah.
Michael Monroe (29:51):
The answer is I still don't know.
Chase Williams (29:54):
I still don't know.
There's no playbook?
Michael Monroe (30:05):
still don't know , I, I still don't know, there's
no playbook, uh.
But one thing I can say very,very in particular um, the idea
(30:26):
that, uh, god makes no mistakesand God knows everything that's
coming, I, I, I want to, youknow, I don't, I don't want to
stay away from the God makes nomistakes because it's, it's,
it's.
I'm sure there's people, andthey lose, people that get very
angry with God, rightfully like,rightfully so.
And God's big enough to takethat right, like you can
(30:47):
shoulder that, but but for me,it was really the space of of
God.
God knew and had every inklingand know-how, and so I'll give
you an example of this.
I want to say it was 2022.
(31:07):
John and Mai's conversationsstarted to kind of take a
different flavor, and and andone of the things that I
communicated with John very,very regularly, uh, was this
idea of you don't want to beMartha Stewart, you want to be
(31:29):
Martha Stewart enterprises.
You want to be the MarthaStewart that IPO'd.
You want to be the MarthaStewart Like'd.
You want to be the MarthaStewart Like.
You want to.
You want to like your love.
You're powerful, you are anengine.
No one can do what you do, andif you're the major cog in the
machine, you're the major clogin the machine.
And so in 2022, I started usinga phrase to try to drive into
(32:02):
him, which jnn, which was johnnot needed right and and so I I
would.
Would you know if he you know,mikey, you know question about
you know my team and this andthat, and they want to do this,
or what about jnn?
And he'd like yeah, so whatwould you do?
I'm like do you trust him?
Then go go right like and thisis part of the.
This is part of the.
Like john built an incrediblecompany, yeah, but but if he was
(32:24):
still with us he would be atthe apex.
This is why he had a businesspartner, rod, who deals in
enterprise level stuff.
Like like there would have beena skill set jump necessary to go
to and they were doing it, theywere doing it, they were doing
it, and part of this was thisconcept of John not needed,
where it was like open up avertical of your business where
(32:45):
you are totally a spectator mostpowerful moments I've ever had
in business and you hearfounders say stuff like this too
, where where one of the mostlife-changing moments in a
founder's company is whenthey're walking in the hall in
the company, walking through thehall of the company, and they
(33:05):
see two people, one of whom theydon't know, and they're talking
about fixing problems in thecompany.
Yeah, like that is a moment oflike wow's the I made it moment,
right, like holy cow, so so, sojohn and I are talking about
this and it's like create thisvertical and and he, he gets
(33:28):
this.
You know, little college internon his team, a gal named sar
Sarah Hardwick, mega talent, thedefinition of catch and release
, meaning, meaning, meaning,just so bright, so good, so
impressive, like you know.
Prominent position in hersorority, you know, started a
(33:49):
nonprofit or five or whatever.
Like I don't even know, likejust just super, super, like,
just buttoned up, talented,smart, and so now she builds out
this membership community, themembership community being this
thing where it's like let's seeif people would actually join a
(34:09):
gifting community.
And I think the mandate or theaspirational goal in her first
know, her first summer, which Ithink people were anticipating
were going to be her only summer, because it's like, you know,
go back to your senior year, youhave something to do.
It was like maybe we can get,maybe we can get, you know, 30
people in this thing, right,yeah, and.
And you know 287 people later,right, and.
(34:32):
And you know, hey, what'd youlearn in your internship?
You know, I learned I'm notgoing anywhere, right, wow, um,
right, like, that was the, thatwas the, that was the one of the
things there.
So, um, prior to, prior to Johnpassing, there was the entire
rich relationship society thathad been built in a place of
(34:53):
John not needed.
And, uh, this was in conjunctionwith him writing his second
book, right, and?
And you can only going back toyour question, as a leader, you
can only look at that, and, andeither everything in life is a
(35:15):
coincidence or nothing is, andif you believe that nothing is,
then there's a divine creatorwho is, who is architecting and
who's setting and taking care upof, of taking care of the
people who are, who are right,yeah, and, and, and.
So I look at those momentswhich were so ridiculous and
(35:36):
improbable improbable that Sarahgot hired.
Improbable of of J and N,improbable and like probably a
hundred things I don't even knowabout.
Right, like, like.
This is, the story is not aboutme whatsoever.
I look at all those things andand I derive strength because it
(35:56):
almost feels like, like, and,and I don't want to put words in
in rod's mouth of the giftologyteam, but there's this real
sense of like, if, if you're noton mission now, if you avoid
the mission and the pain and thechallenge, yeah, it's like
jonah running away to get eatenby the whale.
Like it is clear, yeah, whatyou are here to do.
Reed Moore (36:19):
He lived for this, he died for this and we are the
legacy.
Michael Monroe (36:23):
Yes, yes, and, and here's the great thing about
, and here's the rallying crywith john, and, and we, like so
many people, said this, and thenthey said it at celebration of
life.
It was never about glory ofJohn, it was always about glory
to God, and this is how we livedthe mission.
Reed Moore (36:42):
Just thinking about you know all of the things you
talked about with you know withdeveloping people and then how
you help that organizationdevelop their people, not
knowing how important it wasgoing to be, and then just to
watch you love and lead um in inthis last season, uh, because
(37:02):
we've been able to to kind ofshare in this journey, not
nearly to the level that you youhave had to to to go through,
but it's just really a testamentto your leadership and to your
you know.
It makes me think, like youknow, with with John is like you
know he loved God first andthen the second piece of that,
from everything I know about himfrom you and talking to him a
couple of times, is he servedpeople.
Michael Monroe (37:22):
Everything you said is accurate and I am.
I am grossly underselling it,not for any strategic or
communicative reason, but justthe fact that I don't.
I don't know if there's enoughtime to be able to like, I don't
even know if I have the wordsto give people the feel, but I
think, in that note, going backto, two things can be true.
First thing is the book isgoing to launch, the company is
(37:48):
going to win, the company isgoing to do well, the mission is
going to live on, it's going tobe stronger than ever, and so
John not needed, but, on theother hand, like guys, like john
will always be needed.
Yeah, and, and I think, at thispoint of human history where
(38:09):
tribalism and polarization andalgorithms and technology are
eating the world, and youhaven't seen, we haven't seen
anything yet.
We haven't even made ai thatcan think for itself.
Yet that's coming.
Let's add some super computersto that, and and and that's
going to be fun, and we're inthe greatest experiment in human
history, which is for many,many, many, many years.
(38:34):
Let's give humans and childrenscreens that are architecturally
engineered and developed tokeep their attention and reward
their dopamine through simpleclicks.
Let's design companies thathave attention engineers meant
to keep people online on thisscreen for as long as possible
so we can sell advertising.
And let's if I'm the executivesof that company, let's actually
(38:55):
discourage my own children fromusing this technology, because
we know how absolutely insanelydopamine destroying it is.
Yeah, I think in that world andin that environment not to
sound dystopian yeah, I thinkthat relationship is alive and
well and more important thanever.
(39:16):
Yeah, and John is one of manymessengers, and more so than
anything.
I hope that his message, I hopehis message lives on.
Reed Moore (39:24):
Yeah, well, one of the things I guess just wrap up
with is I know that you areinstrumental in bringing the
thoughts that he had put afterGiftology together, of thoughts
that he had put after giftologytogether, and um, and I believe
there's a book that's coming outthat john wrote that you were
instrumental in putting together.
You want to give us a sneakpeek?
Michael Monroe (39:44):
I love marketing , I can do.
I can do commercials, I can docommercials.
So, um, uh, books are a greatexample of the first layer of
transformation, which is knowingwhat to do.
But completely, completelycan't interact with a book,
right?
So so, first book, giftology.
Incredible job of teaching whatto do when it comes to like,
(40:09):
hey, you should take giftingseriously.
This is what makes good gifts.
This is what makes bad gifts.
The second book is calledBeyond Giftology.
This is what makes bad gifts.
The second book is called BeyondGiftology and you know the
cover is a testimony torelationships, take you to
places up and to the right, andit's also very you know people
have referred to it as thestairway of heaven or stairway
to heaven, which which I like,and I like that.
(40:39):
You got the black book,giftology, the white book,
beyond Giftology, but the ideais this is the book that teaches
people how to earn endless wordof mouth through the
transformation of referralpartners, and so there's a lot
of literature out there abouthow to get referrals, how to ask
for referrals.
A lot of the content is exactlythat Ask, ask again, ask more,
show up to the network meetings,do these things right.
(40:59):
Just got to get your foot inthe door.
Father-in-law, father-in-lawadvice you just gotta, you just
gotta get your name out there,son, like just go out there,
right, uh, uh, uh, yeah.
But but that's not, that's not.
That's not.
It's not the artsy way of doing.
That's not how john did it.
It's not how john, that's nothow john went from you, not the
artsy way of doing.
That's not how john did it.
It's not how john.
That's not how john went fromyou know, goat milking, farm boy
(41:19):
to falling off a ladder, toselling knives, to skip some
steps, but but private jets with, with billionaires, and and you
know, yeah, yeah.
I'm excited for the book, I'mexcited for the book launch.
I'm excited for for really, themessage, because it teaches uh,
the system of like here is howto um, here is how to create ror
(41:49):
, which we all know what roi isvery, very transactional.
I put in a dollar, I get back adollar forty.
But the thing that's so greatabout ROR is it might not be
1.4x, might not be 2x.
Return on relationship could be10x.
Sure, could be 100x.
Infinite yeah, could literallybe infinite.
(42:10):
Could be life changing, couldbe soul changing.
Yeah, like could be theconversation.
Introduce me to the person whohad the conversation that
changed everything, that led meto Jesus, that led me Right.
Like like relationships and Isay this is a 10,000 hour
marketer and salesperson.
I've done, done my time, boththose worlds.
I say this as as hands downrelationships take you places
that marketing can't.
Takes you place that salescan't.
(42:31):
Relationships take you placethat management can't.
Relationships take you placesthat marketing can't.
It takes you places that salescan't.
Relationships take you placesthat management can't.
Relationships take you placesthat contracts, threats and
fears and quotas and all thethings and incentives and do
this, get that kind of programs,all those things.
Relationships trump them all.
It's not who you know, it's whoyou know who likes you, who
trusts you, who will introduceyou.
Reed Moore (42:52):
Thank you, man.
Chase Williams (43:00):
I appreciate you being here.
Yep, this is great.
Thanks, buddy, always apleasure.
Thanks, all right everybody.
Thanks for listening to theSherpa Leadership Podcast.
If this episode inspired you,don't forget to subscribe, leave
a review or share with yourfavorite leader.
For more tools and resources,you can go to
sherpaconsultinggroupcom.
Remember that leadership is ajourney and every step you take
matters.
We'll see you next time.
Take care, guys.
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