April 28, 2025 • 41 mins
On this Episode of Spiritual Practices of the Disgruntled Artist, we talk to Grant Jossi! Grant is a writer on the newly announced Avatar show, Seven Havens. We talk to him about how breaking a sweat helps him crack a scene, his relationship to the industry and how he maintains a healthy state of mind.
Music by Doug Harvey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello and welcome to theSpiritual Practices of the
Disgruntled Artist Spoa, as welike to call it, SPOA Spoa,
where we interview a new artisteach episode.
And learn how they are keepingthemselves sane and spiritually
healthy during this especiallychallenging time to be an
(00:31):
artist.
Welcome back girls.
So last time we had somehomework.
Olivia, your homework?
Mm-hmm.
My, okay.
My homework was to pull a cardevery day.
Mm-hmm.
Which is one of your practices?
Yep.
And what was your homework todo?
Yoga, meditation.
Okay.
How'd that go?
You looking, how'd that go overthere?
You know, not as great as I, uh,like to say.
(00:55):
Okay.
That's okay.
Here's the thing.
I realize I just need to getbetter.
I waking up in the mornings.
Mm.
And I, I did manage to do someyoga practices here and there.
Some were in the morning.
A lot of them were after when Igot home from work, which is
also beautiful and I love that.
Mm-hmm.
Sunset, you know, kind of yoga.
(01:17):
Um, I do like to pair meditationtogether.
I think it works so well.
I think that works is just likenatural for me or.
Sometimes Grant and I will dolike literally five minutes,
even two minutes sometimes ifwe're really like tired of
meditation right before we go tobed.
Mm-hmm.
Or we just like sit and justlike take two minutes, five
minutes to meditate together.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but it was hard to stayconsistent.
(01:40):
Yeah.
I just wasn't consistent I loveyoga so much, and I think when I
was like, oh, I'm gonna do yogaevery day.
I'm thinking I'm, I, I want isto get back into it.
Okay.
And I think I need a betterschedule for it.
Yeah, that's right.
I think, I think I need to bemore disciplined.
Yes.
I think I was too lackadaisicalabout it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but the days where I wasconsistent where again, it was
(02:03):
in the morning.
I think that's just the besttime for me personally.
I do the yoga and then I go out.
Into our little back patio andsit in my favorite little chair,
and usually the sun is likestreaming right down on me.
Mm-hmm.
And I would meditate.
And did you feel different onthose days versus the days when
you didn't?
Oh yeah.
(02:24):
I always do.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I just feel lighter.
I just feel better.
I think the reason I I craveyoga is it connects me to my
body.
I'm gonna ask you this again,even though I already asked you.
Is there a re do you feel any,is it just that it was hard to
work your life around it?
(02:44):
Did you feel any resistance toNo, I don't think there's no
resistance.
Yeah, because I do.
That's what I'm saying.
I love it.
I think I just need to be betterabout, because I just get lazy
about it, you know?
I, yeah.
Committing to it.
I got some, you know, a littleyoga sessions here and there,
but they felt like, oh, I justneed to get them in for the sake
of this.
Mm.
For the sake of this, for doingthis.
Yeah, exactly.
And I was like, that's not,yeah, that's not what I wanna
(03:07):
do.
But it might feel like thatuntil it doesn't.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I allowed it to be thatway, but I think in general I'm
going to, I'm gonna keepsticking with it.
Okay.
Because I think I need to.
Yeah.
There's no downside to it, tome.
Yeah.
There just isn't any downsideWell, I think, I think you just
try again.
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, let try again.
(03:28):
And you did it, you know I did.
Yeah.
Kind of.
I pulled cards.
That was your thing that I took.
Yes.
And first of all, I thought itwas good for me because the
cards to me can sometimes feel,I think that this is actually
like a belief that is in someway ingrained in me that there
is something negatively possiblymagical about the cars.
(03:49):
Oh yeah.
That like you can call onspirits that aren't.
Good for you.
Like there's some belief that Ihave about it that ha has made
me like a little bit afraid.
Oh yeah.
I was gonna say, are there likecards you're afraid to pull?
I think that, I think thatthat's right.
Um, so doing them every dayhelped me sort of overcome that
so I did it for two weeks.
I would say I missed, I waspretty consistent.
(04:10):
Maybe two days I missed.
Sometimes I did it like rightbefore bed, and I, and I asked
the question you asked of like,what do I need to hear?
Sometimes I asked what do I needto dream about tonight if it was
a night?
Ooh, I like that.
Um, and, and, yeah, I got thiscard over and over again called
The Void.
I got it like four or fivetimes, which was really
interesting because the, duringthis time.
(04:34):
I, I, I, I cut this thread.
We, this thread, right?
Yes.
Which, the thread for me.
Oh, what, real quick, what doesthe void mean?
Just, okay.
Yeah.
Yes.
Just so we can idea.
Yes.
The void card.
Yes, it's, it's a black cardthere.
Looks like there's kind of alittle bit of clouds on it.
It says the void stop, embracewinter, great cosmic womb.
(04:58):
And when you read thedescription, it's about you are
in a state of nothingness andfrom this state of nothingness,
inspiration will be born.
And your job is just to embracethe nothingness.
Mm.
And it was really interesting.
Because last time, we weretalking about how I had this one
little thread that was stoppingme from fully trusting that the
universe is gonna provide thecareer that I want.
(05:19):
Mm-hmm.
And I did a lot of work to likeundo the quilt, but there was
this one little thread of tryingto control the outcome and
somehow.
I cut the thread.
I think after our conversation,I cut the thread and I the way I
knew it was because I just feltbored all of a sudden.
Like I felt, I had like a, aweek or two where I was just
like, felt kind of on we, and Iwas like, oh, it's because I was
spending all this mental energyon my career and worrying about
(05:42):
it and stressing about it and,and also trying to manifest
sick.
Mm-hmm.
Pray about it, write down theright mantras, like all this
stuff, the, the spiritualpractices that have become a
form of control in some way forme.
And then it was all just gonebecause I just fully trust that
it's gonna happen in the righttime, that it's meant to happen.
And I don't want to ride a wavethat's not mine.
(06:03):
Like I wanna ride the right wavefor me so that not just my
career stuff works, but it workswith my life.
My children.
Yeah, my family.
Like all of it at one time.
So that's the good news is thatI feel like the threat has
really been cut and I feel likeI genuinely trust it's gonna
happen at the right time.
Um, and because this thread hasbeen cut, I feel like I'm in the
void, you know?
Yeah.
(06:23):
So I think, and that, that cardkept coming up for that.
And now,'cause I have a space,I've just been putting like a
lot of like spiritual andself-help books in there.
Like I'm listening to one, I'mreading two of them and it's
been really interesting.
I just feel like kind of asponge right now.
I have all this space where Iwas just so worried about this
thing and I'm just like, thatthing is gonna happen.
(06:44):
Like, I don't need to worryabout that thing'cause it's
just, it is gonna happen.
I love that.
Yeah, I love that too.
'cause I, when I, because yousent me the picture mm-hmm.
Of the card.
Mm-hmm.
And, and the void can seem kindof scary.
Yeah.
But there is no fear Yeah.
Around this, like, how you'refeeling.
Yeah.
And also, it's interesting, Imean, correct me if I'm wrong,
(07:05):
but like this is an interestingkind of boredom.
Yes.
It doesn't feel like I'm sobored.
You know?
It's, it's just, it's, it's, itfeels like a release.
It feels like a.
Yeah.
Don't, I don't know.
I, you know, I love that on theother side of the cutting, the
thread is boredom.
Yeah.
Crazy.
I love that.
It's, it's that anticlimacticthough, you know, like I'm even
in my head, I thought it wasgonna be like, and now like, I
(07:27):
just believe, and like also, Ilove that it's happening when I
mean, things are good, butthere's nothing, no parole has
fallen from the sky for me atthis time.
Right.
Which I think is good that ithappened at a time where
everything's just fine, youknow?
Yeah.
Because I don't want it to betied to like.
I had this great success andtherefore I can cut the thread.
Mm-hmm.
I've cut the thread of my ownaccord, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, it is interesting thatit wasn't some grand
(07:52):
announcement.
Right.
Right.
I love that.
And it's been years of thequilts and unraveling the quilts
and stressing out the quilts.
Yeah.
And trying to tear the quilt andthrow the quilt to then you open
up and it's just this blackhole.
You're just bored.
You're not stressed about, butwith it is like endless
(08:13):
possibilities.
Yeah.
And a freedom.
And isn't that great?
This is great.
It is great.
I also, there there issomething, when the car gets
pulled multiple times, I believein the car, it's more than ever.
Yeah.
I love to do, uh, card pullinglike winter solstice I like to
do it with gatherings and it'sso funny to me because this will
happen where people will pull.
(08:35):
And I shuffle.
Yeah.
People will pull the same card.
I don't know if it's like,'causewe're all in the same room or
something like that.
Or same with me.
I get excited when I see a cardthat I've never seen because a
lot of times it's the same one,which is I'm also like, okay,
yeah, I know this card.
And it's time to, to return tothat.
Yeah.
Return to the void.
Return to the void.
(08:56):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's great.
Well.
Let's bring on, let's bring onfirst.
So we have our first guest onthe podcast, and these a special
one, introducing Grand Johnson.
(09:19):
Um, okay.
Why don't you.
Minute joke because you're alsonamed him.
Yes.
Uh, he is, uh, a wonderfulperson and husband to me
personally.
No one else that we know of,that we know of.
Very different kind of podcast.
My spiritual practice is Bigamy,and a writer.
He's currently on a new showvery popular show, very popular
(09:39):
show, very popular franchise.
Uh, for those who don't know, hewrites.
On the new avatar show.
Seven Havens.
Yeah.
Still no announcement date, butthat is the show.
But now you can say it, which iscool.
Yeah, we officially can, whichyeah, is is a delight.
We don't have to use all ourcode names anymore.
So what were the code?
Can we know the code names?
I actually don't think you can.
(10:00):
Oh.
Because there might.
Still be some stuff.
Yeah.
Secrets.
Yep.
Yep.
Uh, were you just terrified?
I feel like whenever I haveworked on really NDA things,
I've always been just scaredthat for some reason it's just
gonna bubble out of me and I'mgonna be like, I'm not, anything
I weirdly was protected by howinto avatar, everyone around me
is because I feel like no one,everyone else aggressively also
(10:21):
didn't want spoilers.
So that helps.
I don't, I've, I don't know, tknow anything, doesn't anything
really.
Yeah.
Yes.
I want to go like, so.
Blind.
I wanna go in.
I just wanna be blind.
I don't wanna be blind, but youknow, I wanna go in.
Yeah.
Being surprised because I be,because I love the Avatar
universe, so Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Also, we talk about it at leastfour hours a day, every day in
(10:42):
the room.
So I, I feel like I was alltalked out about it too, by the
time, yeah.
By the time the day was over,so.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But, you know, it's good to beable to talk about it a little
bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, in the time I've known Grant,you have been such a hard
worker.
Mm-hmm.
And there have been so manymoments where I was like, this
guy's just gonna pop off.
And then, and then you did.
And I love that for you and forall of us.
(11:04):
Because sometimes it doesn'thappen that way where there's a
lot of talented people that workreally hard and are also good
people that are still waitingfor their pop off moment.
A hundred percent.
Uh, not to start things off on acynical note, but I think
there's so much chance that hasto do with it and, you know, we
all know so many people thatwork hard and have taken all the
opportunities and have a lot oftalent and it's still just like
(11:24):
a bad run of luck or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Makes it hard for them to makeit.
So, yeah.
I feel very lucky too, be in theplace I am now and, uh, I'm
sure, you know, it'll be, stillcontinue to have ups and downs,
but yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think for me, and I, and I, wetalked about this too, is like.
You not only do you work hard,but you work well with others
and you've made so many greatconnections and genuine
(11:47):
connections.
Um, and I think that's sohelpful.
And I think that's a big reasontoo, that you're working on one
of your favorite shows ever.
Yeah, 100%.
I think it helps.
I always tell people the first.
Like rung of interviews orwhatever is just someone, you
know, being able to tell thepeople hiring you.
This person's not a serialkiller, which sounds good, but
(12:10):
legitimately, they know with methey're not getting someone
who's going to be unpleasantpersonally, you know?
Yeah.
Who's, who's going to at leasthave a modicum of decorum.
So, yeah.
For now, for now, I'm gonna,it's going to my head, unleash.
I'm gonna be, yes.
Very unpleasant going forward.
Um, okay.
So.
What are some things you do?
We call them spiritualpractices, but they don't have
(12:31):
to necessarily be spiritual.
They can be rituals.
What are some things you do tokeep yourself mentally healthy
and sane as an artist?
Um, so yeah, I'm not a, a veryspiritual person, so a lot of my
rituals are more pragmatic, Iguess.
Um, as Olivia can attest, Ithink physical exercise is very
important to me.
You know, I try to, yeah, once aday be sweating in some way or
(12:54):
another, whether it's the gym ora run or something.
I think it's just a helpful, um,expensive energy and it works
literally a different muscle, Ithink, than writing does.
You know, when you're sittingand staring at a.
Computer screen for that long.
I think it helps to get outsideor in a different building and,
and move some heavy stuff aroundor yeah, just run around a
little bit.
So is it a certain time everyday?
(13:15):
Um, well, I, I.
Usually go to the gym early inthe morning, but that is more
because my gym buddy goes at7:00 AM so I go at 7:00 AM Okay.
Shout out to Aaron.
Shout out to Aaron.
You have an accountabilitybuddy?
Yes.
Yes.
I have an accountability buddywho picks me up because up
until, uh, two days ago I didn'thave a car.
So he literally comes and picksme up and takes me to the gym
and we work out and then returnsme.
(13:36):
That's very cute.
Uh, it's very nice of him andactually a good way to start the
day because then you know, youhave a little time, you've been
awake for a couple hours by thetime.
Our, uh, our room starts and youkind of wanna come in awake, you
know, you wanna come in.
Yeah.
Having already gotten all thatstuff out.
'cause you might be asked tocome up with something good
right off the, right off thebat.
And if you're still kind ofrubbing the sleep outta your
eyes, that's a little tricky.
(13:56):
So yeah, I usually do that.
And then if I'm going on a run,it'll usually be in the
afternoon.
Okay.
Kind of after work.
Are you very like, um.
St, I wanna say stringent.
Is that the right word?
Are you like, every single day Imust do this?
Or is it more loose?
I weekends I'll take off.
Okay.
But most weekdays, certainly atleast, at least working out if
not working out running.
I have also noticed too, thatwhen you are like on script
(14:19):
writing, uh, if you do need,you're like, I just need a new
idea.
You go out running.
Yeah.
Like if it's like, sometimesit's not even regimen, it's
just, uh, I need to get awayfrom the screen, like you said,
and just go, and I've seen youcome back and be like, I did it.
I unlocked it.
And we just go, wow.
Yeah, because you can't reallydistract yourself when you're
running and you kind of, it's sounpleasant physically.
(14:41):
If you're doing it is.
It really is.
Right.
I hate running.
Your brain just goes anywhereelse.
For, since this is an audiomedium, I would like your
listeners to know that I don'tlook like I work out wrong.
Yeah, you do.
Every single day I do it, butlest you Google a picture of me
and like what in the.
So, yeah, but I guess that's my,my main daily practice as far as
(15:02):
that stuff goes.
Has that been like an alwaysthing or did you have to come to
find that?
That was a good question.
I kind of had to come to findthat I am not a very well
coordinated or athletic personand never really have been.
So I think I sort of thought ofphysical exercise is something I
would not enjoy, and it wasreally in my adult life that I
think I realized how importantit is to be doing both.
(15:23):
That even if you are.
Sort of, you know, I'm a hugereader as well, and there's
something about reading andwriting that are close enough to
each other that if that's kindof all you're doing that day,
um, I think your brain juststarts to get a little fuzzy.
And I think physical exercise isgreat in whatever capacity you
can do it, just to shake off thecobwebs and be such a different
thing.
So yeah, I'd say it wasn't untilI was in my twenties, maybe
(15:45):
early twenties, that I startedto really take that seriously.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Was there like a moment whereyou're like, okay, I need to be
active now?
How did it come to be?
Yeah, that's a good question.
I, I think it was kind of a slowprocess.
I had never, you know, I thinkfor a lot of, well, I, I
shouldn't speak for everybody.
I think as a kid I didn't reallyknow like how to work out and I
(16:07):
was a little worried abouthurting myself or something.
Mm-hmm.
So like that was definitely aprocess of learning and having
to go to the gym and figure outwhat is the safe way to do this.
Luckily I had friends who didthat, and running is something
I, uh, used to do with my dad.
Uh, I guess I still, he's aroundto be clear.
I still could run with him, but,you know, uh, just slightly
different ages now.
But, um, but yeah, so I, I knewI could run and I did enjoy it
(16:29):
occasionally, but I was justnever very regular with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that is the otherthing too much like with any
artistic craft, I think you'vegotta kind of be consistent
about it for it to go anywhereor for you to get any better.
So I just kind of realized Ican't be running, you know,
whenever I'm home or just kindof on a lark, I have to be a
little, a little better about.
Doing it frequently and at aregular schedule, so, yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of funny how like thebrain can actually change.
(16:52):
Like we were talking about thiswhere I felt like I was too
addicted to coffee.
So I started in the mornings Ido like ginger, cinnamon, lemon
tea, and then I, and then I eat,and then I have coffee and
eventually, I, I remember onemorning I was like, okay, you
know what?
I'm just gonna, I'm so tired,I'm just gonna have coffee.
I'm gonna skip the tea thing.
And I was like, I don't evenwant this.
Like my, I like changed thehabit in a way that doesn't feel
(17:12):
like work.
Yeah.
Does it feel like that, like,does, does working out feel like
work now?
Like you have to convinceyourself to do it, or it's just
part of you?
Rarely do I, if it's a long run,I do have to talk myself into
it.
If it's more than five miles,I'm really gonna have to, you
know, oh, grant, look at, lookin the mirror and say, you've
gotta, you just gotta do it.
Once you're out there, it won'tbe so bad.
But that, that's a harder thingto face down.
But no, everything else.
Yeah, it pretty much comesnaturally.
(17:33):
And like Olivia was saying, Ithink it does help, you know, if
I'm, if I'm working on a problemin a script or something, it is
huge to be able to say, okay,I'll, I'll, you know, sometimes
the best ideas occur to you whenyou're not trying to come up
with them.
So that's hugely helpful.
That was actually gonna be myquestion, is I, I don't think
I've ever asked you when you goout.
Because you need to think ofsomething or crack a scene or
(17:54):
something like that.
Do you out, I love thatverbiage.
Crack a scene, crack a scenebecause that, that's how I say
it.
Sure.
Yeah.
I, I like it.
Um, do you go out, like thinkingabout it or do you go out with
the intention not to think aboutit?
Do you listen to music?
Like what?
Do you have a mentality?
I do listen to music.
Um, I do try and not activelythink about it.
(18:15):
Okay.
Um, not chase it because Ithink, you know, I have that
going on in the back of my head.
Mm-hmm.
But when you let your brain sortof drift, I.
Um, I think it'd be easier tocome up with good ideas.
Yeah, I mean, there are a lot ofparts to my job, obviously, but
I think a lot of what day-to-dayscript writing is, or most of
the jobs I've taken in thewriting space are really about,
(18:36):
um, details and executingsomeone else's vision.
And especially if you are, say,a staff writer on a TV show to
me, my job is usually.
To make sure that my showrunneror the higher ups sort of get
what they'd like, which is amatter of just being kind of on
the ball, putting together goodsentences, putting together good
scenes, good scripts, et cetera.
And then occasionally you alsohave to come up with something,
(18:58):
I guess, higher or more artisticlike inspiration.
And I think that is a harderthing you can kind of buckle
down and force yourself to.
Do good craft, I guess, youknow, to just make a script that
works.
That sentences sound good,you're editing it, et cetera.
That's the thing.
You can kind of buckle down andforce your way through, but it's
really hard to force your way toartistic inspiration, I think.
Mm-hmm.
And specifically to coming upwith an idea that really
(19:19):
resonates.
So I, I think that's what'shelpful to kind of trick the
mind into focusing, lookingsomewhere else or doing
something else so that the goodideas can sneak in a little bit,
because it's also likeinspiration for somebody else's.
Inspiration.
Right, exactly.
Like it's not exactly your, it'snot your impulse.
It's like you're trying to findan impulse for a per a different
person's creative vision.
(19:39):
Exactly.
It's it and it, it is.
You kind of have to let go ofthe ego.
Element of a little bit, I thinkfor that, because I'm not trying
to think of the idea that mostresonates with me or that I
would most like necessarily, I'mtrying to think of an idea that
I think will solve a problemwith the script or whatever, but
will also give the people aboveme what they want.
Mm-hmm.
And especially working in likean established universe, which
(20:00):
we are, that means you'rerunning it by the people who
created that universe and you'remaking sure that everybody upped
the chain.
Is cool with it.
So even if I was like, it'd becool if something totally wild
ha you know, like, I can't throwthat out there.
That's not what the topic Yeah.
That's why I can't do your job.
I'd be like, everyone's nude andthey're holding menand.
What do we think They'd be like,uh, this is an afterschool
(20:22):
special.
Um, okay.
To, to switch topics for asecond.
Yeah.
What do you feel like, I knowyou said you're not spiritual.
Do you believe?
Do what?
Do you relate to being agnostic?
Do you believe that there's anyhigher power?
Do you, do you believe in any,any plants?
Do you believe in plants brand?
I do believe in plants.
(20:42):
I'm looking at some right now, Ibelieve strongly.
I love that.
Um, I'm, I'm probably a prettyfirm atheist.
Okay.
I guess I would describe myopinion as I was raised in the
church.
Um, uh, what was thedenomination?
Um, I was Episcopalian.
Okay.
And my grandparents were bothSunday school teachers, and I
went every Sunday with thempretty much through high school.
(21:03):
But I would say since I've beenconscious of my own beliefs, I
haven't really believed, I justthought it was nice for my
grandparents that I would go.
Mm-hmm.
I think I can say now becausethey're not around to listen to
this podcast.
Mm.
But, um, I, you know, I think tome.
Uh, I think there are definitelythings we can't understand, but
I don't necessarily believe inhigher power.
Mm-hmm.
If I have a religious orspiritual leaning, it's probably
something closer to secularBuddhism.
(21:25):
Yeah.
Um, or Taoism.
I really like reading aboutreligions and I was always
fascinated by that aspect of it,but I don't necessarily believe
or interact with the world inthat way.
I'm a pretty materialist person,I guess, in that sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you have to like have acoming out to your family of
like, I am not religious.
No, not really.
My immediate family knew a frompretty much when I was like 13
(21:45):
or 14.
Oh, really?
Okay.
Because I was a snotty littlepunk, um, making fun of their
beliefs.
But uh, I'd never really talkedto my grandparents about it.
You know, I think that was suchan important part of their lives
and they were involved in thatcommunity and it just seemed
like it would be.
A waste of my effort and oftheir sort of good graces to
bring that up.
You know, I, I think it madethem feel good that I went with
(22:07):
them, and that was enough for meto be like, there's no, I don't
feel the need to have thisargument with them necessarily.
Yeah.
And they were pretty, I mean,obviously, you know, I, I guess
it depends on which churchyou're in, but our, our church
was relatively forgiving and,and my grandma who taught the,
uh, sort of youth school alwaysemphasized that the Bible was
written.
At a certain time and she would,she would sort of say, you know,
(22:29):
look how they talk about womenor something.
And she'd said, but this is fromthe Bronze Age.
So there were different culturalpractices.
And I always appreciated thatabout her, that she was like, I
believe strongly in this, butI'm also willing to put it in
its historical context as anolder document.
So, yeah, that's really great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like a lot of peopledon't wanna do that.
No, no.
It's a tough thing to do.
I mean, you know, I, I, I, Idon't think my grandpa did that,
(22:50):
for instance.
I think he was pretty like,Nope, this is, this is what it
is.
But, uh, but yeah, so I don'tknow how much that inspired my
own spiritual practices orbeliefs necessarily, but I
definitely think it is afascinating arena.
You know?
What about secular buddhismentices you.
Great question.
I.
Have just always been drawn toBuddhism and to a lesser extent
(23:13):
Taoism.
The nerdy answer that's probablytrue to some extent is that I
came up on Star Wars and they'vegot kind of some of that around
the force.
Oh, okay.
I probably made that connectionpretty early on.
I was like, whoa, I like that.
But you know, I think the thingthat I appreciate about Buddhism
is the same thing I appreciateabout something like stoicism,
which is this belief incontrolling what you can and
letting what you can't go.
(23:33):
Mm-hmm.
And in focusing on, you know,your own actions to some extent.
And then also the attempt tofind sort of a mental, calm and
balance.
You know, I do meditateoccasionally.
Mm-hmm.
But it is not like I attend aBuddhist temple regular or
anything like that.
But I love reading about it too.
I think spiritually, um, a lotof Buddhist writers are probably
(23:53):
closer to a thought pattern ofmy own or just something I'm
interested in.
And I think the practice ofmeditation too is something that
I think is very important.
I'm sure you guys are gonna get.
Meditation as, as, as one ofthese episodes at some point,
which is why I did not select itfor mine.
But I think, uh, no, I'd hate tomake you meditate two weeks, you
know?
Be terrible.
Um, yeah.
Do you, do you do a guidedmeditation or you just do sit in
(24:16):
silence?
Or what's your.
I sit in silence.
And it's another one of thosethings like running a writing
that I think definitely you getbetter at the more you do it.
And as Olivia can attest, therehave been times, even in our
relationship where I've beenreally good about doing it every
day.
Mm-hmm.
For longer and longer stretchesof time.
And then there are times whenI'm bad about my practice and
then it becomes incredibly hardto, you know, keep the mind
(24:37):
relatively clear for more thantwo or three minutes, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
Taoism is interesting.
I'm re I always reread this bookof the Dao de Jing.
Yeah, yeah.
Jing.
Yeah, we talked about it thattoo.
Um, I just kind of flip todifferent pages in it now and
it's so I, like, sometimes I canwrap my mind around and it, and
(24:58):
sometimes I'm like, what is itsaying?
Like, it feels like it's justsaying like, there is nothing
when you realize you arenothing, you are whole.
And I'm like, that sounds nice,but what's it mean?
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one of the advantages,I've read a couple of
translations of that, um, bookand you know, obviously it's so
short and there are so many justsort of, it's, it's so segmented
(25:18):
for those who haven't read it.
But I dunno, I, I think there issomething valuable in attempting
to grapple with things that areirrational or difficult to
understand.
Another thing I appreciate aboutBuddhism is like zen koans,
where they're sort of, they'renot, riddles is even too strong
of a word.
They're just like odd.
Questions that you ask.
Mm-hmm.
Try and sort of trick the mindinto stopping thinking or
achieving enlightenment.
And again, it's not like I'm anenlightened Buddhist or, or
(25:41):
Taoist or anything like that,but I, I think that ability to
try and sort of shut off yourmind or contemplate stuff that
seems like it's outside of.
The logic, uh, day to of yourday-to-day is really nice.
Yeah.
And I feel like that's what alot of religions give people in
different ways too, and I feellike it kind of is all the same.
Yeah.
In a way.
There was a great quote that wewere talking about that was in
(26:02):
that book, the Doja Jing oflike, if you're on a ladder
either going up or down, it'sstill shaky.
It was about success and failurethat if you're climbing a ladder
or going down the ladder, you'restill shaky.
Yeah.
It's like, how can you be sure.
In your own two feet, which wewere talking about how.
Yeah, I think that's really, andespecially I, I know you guys
are focused on sort of people increative industries and, and
(26:25):
how, how the career path isgoing and how can spiritual
stuff can help.
And I think one thing aboutthose philosophies that draw me
in is the idea that you.
Are not in control of so much ofyour setting and of how the
world functions.
And all you can really decide ishow you are going to respond and
how you're gonna act.
And you have to also do thatknowing that even if you do
everything right, even if youtake an action that you think is
(26:46):
moral or ethical or, or theright move.
That it still might not workout, and you just have to be
comfortable in that action.
Mm.
And to me, the ladder steadyingof feet thing is, is about
exactly that, of like, you can'tcontrol what the ladder's doing
and you can't control what theindustry is doing, what people
around you're doing.
You can only control what you'redoing and you can, you have to
accept that, you know, that kindof shrinks the scope of what you
(27:08):
have to worry about in a little,a little way.
And kind of lets you off thehook too, of like, look, you
can't judge.
Internally, how you're doing byexternally, how things have gone
for you, because so much of thatis so far outside your control.
Mm-hmm.
You really have to becomfortable, I think, with
yourself as an artist and aperson outside of the
externalities that would dictatethat to you.
Do you feel two questions.
(27:30):
Do you feel now or have you everfelt that you are defined by
your success as a writer?
No.
Okay.
You've never felt that?
No.
Actually was just having thistalk at the gym with my gym
buddy.
Shout.
Shout out to Aaron again.
Hey Aaron.
But no, you know, I think to me,I.
I like to write, it's what I'mpassionate about, and this is
(27:52):
different admittedly than itcould be for actors or
directors, paths that requiresome sort of external
validation.
You know, I can go write in myoffice by myself, and that
functionally is the same whethersomeone's paying me to do it or
not, whether I'm working in anestablished universe or not.
If I'm writing, I'm writing.
Acting and directing things likethat I understand are different
because, you know, you can'tjust walk into a room and be
(28:13):
acting by yourself.
It has a different, we do it allthe time talking about you can
be doing that as well.
But, but I think there is a, uh,validation from the audience
that you get as well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, when I write anepisode of something, there,
there are still episodes, uh,I've written years ago that I
still haven't aired.
Animation takes a long, longtime.
And, I don't get that directconnection to like seeing an
(28:35):
audience react or something likethat.
Um, and I also have been,working a long time and working
very hard to move up, but at thesame time, I never felt less
like a writer when I was a PA orsomething like that.
Mm.
I think to me, because it'sartistically important to me,
it's something I'm aware that Iwould be doing regardless of my
success or failure.
And also that, like, I feel verylucky in my success and I, you
(28:56):
know, if, if I'm willing rightnow to judge myself at a moment
of success as like, hooray, youdid it.
You're a writer.
Mm-hmm.
Sometime in the not too distantfuture, I'll have to judge
myself again and say, Hey,you're not, you're out of a job.
You're between jobs.
Does that make you not a writer?
So I think it's important todisconnect those identities from
That's really smart.
Yeah.
I had a similar thing with likefeedback.
(29:16):
Like there was a time where Iwas asking my reps to get
feedback from auditions.
Mm-hmm.
And then it was great feedback.
It was like amazing.
And you felt awesome.
And then every so often, likenot a lot, but there was, I
remember there was one castingdirector who was like.
It's just not strong enough andI was devastated.
Yeah.
I can't ask for feedback anymorebecause they give exactly that
thing.
Like if I'm gonna, yeah.
If I'm gonna, I can't accept thegood and not the bad, so I just
(29:38):
should just mm-hmm.
Do what I, if I feel that it wasgood, then that has to be, yeah.
Enough, and, and maybe alsoeven, you know, again, I
understand that like there's somany different variations on the
creative thing and it's not allgonna be the same, but like I
would also say that I think it'sfair for you to disconnect.
Someone could tell you thatabout your acting.
Mm-hmm.
Well, that's just their opinion,you know what I mean?
(29:58):
And like whether you take thatunder consent, I don't even know
how you would take that underconsideration or not, but.
But that has nothing to do withthe talent that you bring.
You know what I mean?
Like really trying to be like,Hey, like I'm doing my best here
and it does not affect my ego tohere.
Someone else didn't like whatI'm putting out there.
Mm-hmm.
Because like why should I beworried about that?
Or if I am worried about that,I'm worried about it for career
(30:19):
reasons of, okay, I'll figureout some way to do that rather
than.
Now I feel fundamentally thatI'm like invalidated in some way
in my artistic identity becausesomeone didn't like what I was
doing.
Right.
You know, because like, again,writing very different, but like
I have never felt, people haveread my scripts and not cared
for them.
People have rejected them.
People have just not read them.
And I think you can't take thatstuff personally because you
(30:40):
know, if you believe in whatyou're doing, that's gotta be
enough and you can learn andadjust.
And try to get better all thetime.
But at the same time, like nottaking it too, too personally
when someone just doesn't carefor what you're doing.
At least.
At least that's how I treat it.
'cause you know, not everyonewill.
Do you think that's somethingthat you worked at that
mentality?
Because I hear me hearing yousay that I, oh, I wish I could
(31:01):
do that.
Yeah, that is something I, I'mlike, I am almost envious.
And we've obviously, we'vetalked about this, but yeah.
Is this something that like youthink just over the 10 years
you've been working.
That you've gotten better at oris it something that you've
always kind of known or, I, Ithink maybe I have gotten a
(31:22):
little bit better about it.
That's, I mean, you know, mypersonality pretty well.
That's also just me, I think alittle bit where I, I try to
really divorce my feeling aboutmyself from I.
Things outside of my control alittle bit.
Um, and I've, you know, I didn'tthink I was going to go on this
career path either.
I didn't think I was gonna be awriter.
So to me, what'd you think youwere gonna be?
A professor of literature.
(31:43):
Wow.
Okay.
You know, for the money inanother universe.
Yeah.
Al turns out you can wear TweedJackets even if you don't do
that.
No, I, I, you know, I.
Thought I was gonna do that.
And writing was sort of a pipedream.
And I graduated from college andgot into grad schools, and then
I just thought, I'll give it atry for a couple years.
I would love to do that.
(32:03):
That would be incredible.
That would be a cherry on top oflife if I got to do that.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And why not try, I've got a fewyears, I'm in my early twenties.
What, what else am I doing?
So I, I came out and workedreally hard to get where I am,
and it's worked out wonderfully,but to me it's all been a
cherry, like this is incrediblethat I get to do any of this.
It's a treat and it's not atreat I take lightly, and it's
also not a treat that I thinklasts for forever.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like I am so lucky and delightedto do it, and I know that there
(32:26):
is no guarantee that that willcontinue.
You know, there never is.
I, I wonder, I'm wondering this,and I, I, this could be so far
off base, but I, I feel likeit's actually a very unique.
Perspective of an artist to feelthat sure of themselves and just
consistently like, it seems likethat is how you've been.
And I wonder if it's tied to youbeing an atheist at all.
(32:47):
Like if, if, if you feel thatlike there is nothing beyond it
and it's just due, does it insome way release the pressure of
like you just are fully choosingyour own destiny.
There's no other input.
I think there's maybe an elementof that.
You know, I actually was, when Iwas in college, a friend of mine
brought me to his youth group asa token atheist.
One summer, every, every week.
(33:09):
Did you have to wear a littlelike badge?
Yeah, a little, little letter.
It was like a young men's group.
So, so they knew, he sort ofintroduced me as that, like this
is my string grant.
And um, and he was a veryreligious guy.
All these guys were veryreligious guys, except for me,
Uhhuh.
But I actually kind ofappreciated that he was trying
to go outside his perspective.
Anyway, he brought me there andwe were talking about this very
thing of like, what, what doesthat do to your sense of destiny
(33:31):
or predestination?
You know, I, I think to me, Iguess it's not even that I can
chart my own destiny so much asthat.
I don't think there is adestiny.
Like I don't know what comesnext.
I don't think it's predeterminedand like I'm just doing my best
in the moment and know, knowingthat things could change and
that would not necessarily be areflection of.
You know, whether I have angeredor gained the approval of some
(33:53):
higher power, that might just belike, bad luck or, or good luck.
And you know, it's kind ofoutside of my control.
And I said I would have a hardtime, I think, getting outta bed
in the morning if I thoughtthere was a plan in place
already, or if I thought therewas, you know, that it was all
predestined.
Not to get all Calvinist, but Iwas like, if I already knew.
Before I was born, it wasdetermined if I was going to
heaven or hell or, or thatsomeone knew exactly what my
(34:14):
life would look like.
I think I would have a hard timesort of functioning day to day.
Mm-hmm.
And my religious, you know, thefriends, the, the people in this
youth group said the opposite,where they were like, by God, I,
I don't think I could get out ofbed in the morning if.
I didn't feel like there was aplan in place if I didn't feel
like there was the al the handof the Almighty in, in what I
was doing day to day, which Ithought was an interesting
difference in perspective.
So maybe that could havesomething to do with it.
(34:35):
But I also think, I actuallydon't think I'm making my own
destiny so much as like I'm justtrying to do my best day in and
day out, and my destiny is verymuch out of my hands.
But I don't think it's inanyone's hands.
I think it's, you know, in, inHollywood, producer's hands,
boy, worse, worse than God, forsure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess, you know, and just lucktoo.
I really, really can't emphasizeenough.
This sounds like I'm saying Ididn't work hard for my job or
(34:56):
didn't earn or anything, whichlike I worked super hard.
Yes, you did.
And super lucky to have it.
I, and, and I think luck playedan enormous part of, just like,
I, you know, when you, when Ilook back at the path my career
has taken, it's like, well, Itook this job and I didn't get
that job, which means I tookanother job and then I met this
person on that job and thisperson introduced me to that
person and they hired me foranother job.
And, you know, it's, it's aninsane string of, of
(35:17):
coincidences that lead me toanything good or bad.
And so, yeah, I dunno, I justtry not to be too attached to
that.
Mm-hmm.
Because, yeah.
Did you ever have a moment oflike, this is terrible, it's not
working, I'm gonna leave this.
Did you have a low point ever?
Did I have a low point?
I mean, I didn't have a momentlike that where I thought.
This is terrible and it's notworking.
(35:38):
And again, I think it's what Iwas talking about earlier where
like I never stopped writing.
I have always been writing.
I will continue to write even ifthings are going poorly.
Well, whatever.
I'm always, always writing,writing, writing, which I think
is the only way you get betterand also just very important to
me.
So that was always somethingthat I was gonna keep doing no
matter what.
There were definitely moments inmy career where, you know, when
I first first moved out here, Iwas an onset PA on a.
(36:00):
Uh, wrestling show, uh, cleaningup people's blood, taking
wrestlers to the hospital.
Oh, cleaning porta-potties.
It was, you know, it was apretty gnarly job.
And, uh, you know, and, and as,as some people may know, onset
PAs, you have atrocious hours.
You are the bottom of thepecking order.
I mean, it's a really, reallytough job.
Yeah.
So that was probably the lowpoint, and that was my entry
(36:21):
point of the industry.
You know, I, I, I often jokewhen I'm on generals or
something that, that I startedoff at a low point.
Everything, everything sincethat job, that wasn't even a
terrible job.
You know, people have a lotworse.
But, um, man, every job sincethat job, I've been like, it's
air conditioned in here.
Like, no one's, no one's up, nowrestlers are screaming at me.
This is great.
(36:41):
Um, so that was probably my lowpoint, but honestly, no.
Again, I know that makes itmaybe a little less interesting
is what I think.
It doesn't.
I, uh, yeah.
I don't, I don't think Olivia,you, you, we've been through
that a long time.
I mean, have you ever seen me belike, I'm outta here.
No.
No.
Not necessarily.
I guess another question maybefor, for Grant specifically is
(37:01):
maybe not career wise, but asfar as like you talked about
exercise is important to you.
Um, and I guess we'll keep theword spiritually or just
ritually Yeah.
For that.
Does that help?
Not necessarily career wise, butjust when life is tough?
Yeah.
I would say it does as well.
I think the big thing with bothwriting and exercise, actually
(37:24):
that helps me.
I, I have a, despite my.
Lack of religion.
I think I have, uh, someProtestant work ethic in me, for
sure.
Where I am, I constantly am likeI have to achieve something, I
have to work hard.
Mm-hmm.
And there is something reallynice, uh, and I did this, you
know, this exercise scratchesthe itch, as does my daily
writing.
It's just nice to know at theend of the day, even if
(37:46):
everything went wrong, like Idid one, I did get that one
thing done.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think exercisecan, can absolutely serve that
purpose.
And I also think like if you'rea writer or something or or
doing an art form that you cando completely by yourself and,
and in some capacity like that,just feeling like every day I
got 30 minutes in or somethinglike that.
Mm-hmm.
Is such a huge psychologicalweight off your shoulders.
(38:07):
At least for me.
That's what I've found.
So do you, your daily writing,is it.
Is it now your writing for theshow, or do you have your own
personal daily writing that youdo for your own stuff?
I mean, now just because of howbusy we are, it's mostly the
show.
Yeah.
I still find time to write myown things a little bit and,
and, and sort of be thinking andplaying around with that stuff.
(38:27):
Um, you know, it, it can betough too, I think to do
multiple projects at once,which, which I have done before
as well, where you're sort ofhaving to switch between.
How, what, what world you'reliving in, how you're thinking,
how you're writing.
Those are different modes ofexpression.
Um, so I, you know, I stillwrite.
Daily.
Uh, and when I'm working reallyhard, I try to carve out a
(38:48):
little space for individualstuff, but I also try to give
myself some grace of like, look,at least you did some.
Mm-hmm.
Some writing of some kind, youknow?
And especially feeling luckyenough to get to do creative
writing professionally.
You know, I think that helpstimes when I've done, I.
Non-creative writing for money,I've definitely made sure to
carve out that time tocreatively write stuff.
Yeah.
Because that does not quitescratch the same itch when
you're writing about, not tothrow any companies I've worked
(39:10):
for under the bus, but likeweather satellites for instance.
Or not necessarily just off thetop of my ear, uh, don't quite
scratch that creative itch.
Yeah.
This was delightful.
Great.
Yeah.
Okay.
Is there anything that, that youwould like to plug or that we
should Yeah, we have to watchAvatar.
Please watch Avatar Last.
Airbender and Legend of Cora.
Okay.
Which is leaving Netflix I thinkprobably will have left by the
time this comes up.
(39:31):
And, uh, watch Avatar SevenHavens when it comes out.
We're really proud of it.
Yay.
I think it's gonna be good anduh, yeah, it's.
A dream.
A dream to work on for sure.
So I love that.
Um, wait, so are we running now?
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Now we have to talk about this.
Do you talk about this on Mike?
We have to run.
Do we have to run?
You wanna talk about it on mic?
I don't wanna run.
Wait, may I, may I chime in?
(39:51):
Yes, please.
I think.
Okay.
Just for ease of, because Ithink I worked up to the amount
of working out and running thatI do, and I feel like, I feel
like if you just do maybe likea, like a walk or if it's like
15 minutes of exercise a day.
I know you guys have been doingyoga, I think, right?
Does that count?
Yeah, I think so.
I don't know if that feels likea cop out to you every day.
(40:11):
It shouldn't to me'cause you'realready doing the exercise, so
why should you have to, youknow?
Yes.
But, but I, but I do it likethree times a week.
Okay.
So I think we could say for twoweeks we do it every Now are we
gonna do the Monday throughFriday grant rules or are we
gonna say every day?
For two weeks.
Some form of exercise that likegets our heart rate up.
Let's say that.
I like that.
I think that's, yeah.
Okay.
Get your heart rate a quickjaunt.
(40:31):
Okay.
Every day.
Get your hair.
Sweat.
Sweat.
We have to sweat.
Get a little sweat.
Which is, look in Los Angeles.
That's not that hard.
Yeah.
You know, it's hot.
You just walk outside, you'resweating.
Already done.
Done and done.
Okay.
That's what we're gonna do fortwo weeks.
Then we'll report back.
Sounds good.
About things that have changedand grown.
Yeah.
And I'm excited.
(40:52):
Me too.
I should have picked somethingweirder.
No, this is good.
I couldn't think of anything.
Thanks for being our guest.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thanks for having on guys.
Love.
Love you too.
I love you in a different way.
Thanks, Harry.
I feel the same.
Uh, you guys are awesome.
And uh, yeah, good luck talkingabout how it's been going.
Thank you.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, this has been SDASpiritual Practices.
(41:13):
The Disgruntled Artist Artist.
Boop boop.
See you next time.
Hello and welcome to theSpiritual Practices of the
Disgruntled Artist Spoa, as welike to call it, SPOA Spoa,
where we interview a new artisteach episode.
And learn how they are keepingthemselves sane and spiritually
healthy during this especiallychallenging time to be an
(00:31):
artist.
Welcome back girls.
So last time we had somehomework.
Olivia, your homework?
Mm-hmm.
My, okay.
My homework was to pull a cardevery day.
Mm-hmm.
Which is one of your practices?
Yep.
And what was your homework todo?
Yoga, meditation.
Okay.
How'd that go?
You looking, how'd that go overthere?
You know, not as great as I, uh,like to say.
(00:55):
Okay.
That's okay.
Here's the thing.
I realize I just need to getbetter.
I waking up in the mornings.
Mm.
And I, I did manage to do someyoga practices here and there.
Some were in the morning.
A lot of them were after when Igot home from work, which is
also beautiful and I love that.
Mm-hmm.
Sunset, you know, kind of yoga.
(01:17):
Um, I do like to pair meditationtogether.
I think it works so well.
I think that works is just likenatural for me or.
Sometimes Grant and I will dolike literally five minutes,
even two minutes sometimes ifwe're really like tired of
meditation right before we go tobed.
Mm-hmm.
Or we just like sit and justlike take two minutes, five
minutes to meditate together.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but it was hard to stayconsistent.
(01:40):
Yeah.
I just wasn't consistent I loveyoga so much, and I think when I
was like, oh, I'm gonna do yogaevery day.
I'm thinking I'm, I, I want isto get back into it.
Okay.
And I think I need a betterschedule for it.
Yeah, that's right.
I think, I think I need to bemore disciplined.
Yes.
I think I was too lackadaisicalabout it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but the days where I wasconsistent where again, it was
(02:03):
in the morning.
I think that's just the besttime for me personally.
I do the yoga and then I go out.
Into our little back patio andsit in my favorite little chair,
and usually the sun is likestreaming right down on me.
Mm-hmm.
And I would meditate.
And did you feel different onthose days versus the days when
you didn't?
Oh yeah.
(02:24):
I always do.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I just feel lighter.
I just feel better.
I think the reason I I craveyoga is it connects me to my
body.
I'm gonna ask you this again,even though I already asked you.
Is there a re do you feel any,is it just that it was hard to
work your life around it?
(02:44):
Did you feel any resistance toNo, I don't think there's no
resistance.
Yeah, because I do.
That's what I'm saying.
I love it.
I think I just need to be betterabout, because I just get lazy
about it, you know?
I, yeah.
Committing to it.
I got some, you know, a littleyoga sessions here and there,
but they felt like, oh, I justneed to get them in for the sake
of this.
Mm.
For the sake of this, for doingthis.
Yeah, exactly.
And I was like, that's not,yeah, that's not what I wanna
(03:07):
do.
But it might feel like thatuntil it doesn't.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I allowed it to be thatway, but I think in general I'm
going to, I'm gonna keepsticking with it.
Okay.
Because I think I need to.
Yeah.
There's no downside to it, tome.
Yeah.
There just isn't any downsideWell, I think, I think you just
try again.
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah, let try again.
(03:28):
And you did it, you know I did.
Yeah.
Kind of.
I pulled cards.
That was your thing that I took.
Yes.
And first of all, I thought itwas good for me because the
cards to me can sometimes feel,I think that this is actually
like a belief that is in someway ingrained in me that there
is something negatively possiblymagical about the cars.
(03:49):
Oh yeah.
That like you can call onspirits that aren't.
Good for you.
Like there's some belief that Ihave about it that ha has made
me like a little bit afraid.
Oh yeah.
I was gonna say, are there likecards you're afraid to pull?
I think that, I think thatthat's right.
Um, so doing them every dayhelped me sort of overcome that
so I did it for two weeks.
I would say I missed, I waspretty consistent.
(04:10):
Maybe two days I missed.
Sometimes I did it like rightbefore bed, and I, and I asked
the question you asked of like,what do I need to hear?
Sometimes I asked what do I needto dream about tonight if it was
a night?
Ooh, I like that.
Um, and, and, yeah, I got thiscard over and over again called
The Void.
I got it like four or fivetimes, which was really
interesting because the, duringthis time.
(04:34):
I, I, I, I cut this thread.
We, this thread, right?
Yes.
Which, the thread for me.
Oh, what, real quick, what doesthe void mean?
Just, okay.
Yeah.
Yes.
Just so we can idea.
Yes.
The void card.
Yes, it's, it's a black cardthere.
Looks like there's kind of alittle bit of clouds on it.
It says the void stop, embracewinter, great cosmic womb.
(04:58):
And when you read thedescription, it's about you are
in a state of nothingness andfrom this state of nothingness,
inspiration will be born.
And your job is just to embracethe nothingness.
Mm.
And it was really interesting.
Because last time, we weretalking about how I had this one
little thread that was stoppingme from fully trusting that the
universe is gonna provide thecareer that I want.
(05:19):
Mm-hmm.
And I did a lot of work to likeundo the quilt, but there was
this one little thread of tryingto control the outcome and
somehow.
I cut the thread.
I think after our conversation,I cut the thread and I the way I
knew it was because I just feltbored all of a sudden.
Like I felt, I had like a, aweek or two where I was just
like, felt kind of on we, and Iwas like, oh, it's because I was
spending all this mental energyon my career and worrying about
(05:42):
it and stressing about it and,and also trying to manifest
sick.
Mm-hmm.
Pray about it, write down theright mantras, like all this
stuff, the, the spiritualpractices that have become a
form of control in some way forme.
And then it was all just gonebecause I just fully trust that
it's gonna happen in the righttime, that it's meant to happen.
And I don't want to ride a wavethat's not mine.
(06:03):
Like I wanna ride the right wavefor me so that not just my
career stuff works, but it workswith my life.
My children.
Yeah, my family.
Like all of it at one time.
So that's the good news is thatI feel like the threat has
really been cut and I feel likeI genuinely trust it's gonna
happen at the right time.
Um, and because this thread hasbeen cut, I feel like I'm in the
void, you know?
Yeah.
(06:23):
So I think, and that, that cardkept coming up for that.
And now,'cause I have a space,I've just been putting like a
lot of like spiritual andself-help books in there.
Like I'm listening to one, I'mreading two of them and it's
been really interesting.
I just feel like kind of asponge right now.
I have all this space where Iwas just so worried about this
thing and I'm just like, thatthing is gonna happen.
(06:44):
Like, I don't need to worryabout that thing'cause it's
just, it is gonna happen.
I love that.
Yeah, I love that too.
'cause I, when I, because yousent me the picture mm-hmm.
Of the card.
Mm-hmm.
And, and the void can seem kindof scary.
Yeah.
But there is no fear Yeah.
Around this, like, how you'refeeling.
Yeah.
And also, it's interesting, Imean, correct me if I'm wrong,
(07:05):
but like this is an interestingkind of boredom.
Yes.
It doesn't feel like I'm sobored.
You know?
It's, it's just, it's, it's, itfeels like a release.
It feels like a.
Yeah.
Don't, I don't know.
I, you know, I love that on theother side of the cutting, the
thread is boredom.
Yeah.
Crazy.
I love that.
It's, it's that anticlimacticthough, you know, like I'm even
in my head, I thought it wasgonna be like, and now like, I
(07:27):
just believe, and like also, Ilove that it's happening when I
mean, things are good, butthere's nothing, no parole has
fallen from the sky for me atthis time.
Right.
Which I think is good that ithappened at a time where
everything's just fine, youknow?
Yeah.
Because I don't want it to betied to like.
I had this great success andtherefore I can cut the thread.
Mm-hmm.
I've cut the thread of my ownaccord, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, it is interesting thatit wasn't some grand
(07:52):
announcement.
Right.
Right.
I love that.
And it's been years of thequilts and unraveling the quilts
and stressing out the quilts.
Yeah.
And trying to tear the quilt andthrow the quilt to then you open
up and it's just this blackhole.
You're just bored.
You're not stressed about, butwith it is like endless
(08:13):
possibilities.
Yeah.
And a freedom.
And isn't that great?
This is great.
It is great.
I also, there there issomething, when the car gets
pulled multiple times, I believein the car, it's more than ever.
Yeah.
I love to do, uh, card pullinglike winter solstice I like to
do it with gatherings and it'sso funny to me because this will
happen where people will pull.
(08:35):
And I shuffle.
Yeah.
People will pull the same card.
I don't know if it's like,'causewe're all in the same room or
something like that.
Or same with me.
I get excited when I see a cardthat I've never seen because a
lot of times it's the same one,which is I'm also like, okay,
yeah, I know this card.
And it's time to, to return tothat.
Yeah.
Return to the void.
Return to the void.
(08:56):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's great.
Well.
Let's bring on, let's bring onfirst.
So we have our first guest onthe podcast, and these a special
one, introducing Grand Johnson.
(09:19):
Um, okay.
Why don't you.
Minute joke because you're alsonamed him.
Yes.
Uh, he is, uh, a wonderfulperson and husband to me
personally.
No one else that we know of,that we know of.
Very different kind of podcast.
My spiritual practice is Bigamy,and a writer.
He's currently on a new showvery popular show, very popular
(09:39):
show, very popular franchise.
Uh, for those who don't know, hewrites.
On the new avatar show.
Seven Havens.
Yeah.
Still no announcement date, butthat is the show.
But now you can say it, which iscool.
Yeah, we officially can, whichyeah, is is a delight.
We don't have to use all ourcode names anymore.
So what were the code?
Can we know the code names?
I actually don't think you can.
(10:00):
Oh.
Because there might.
Still be some stuff.
Yeah.
Secrets.
Yep.
Yep.
Uh, were you just terrified?
I feel like whenever I haveworked on really NDA things,
I've always been just scaredthat for some reason it's just
gonna bubble out of me and I'mgonna be like, I'm not, anything
I weirdly was protected by howinto avatar, everyone around me
is because I feel like no one,everyone else aggressively also
(10:21):
didn't want spoilers.
So that helps.
I don't, I've, I don't know, tknow anything, doesn't anything
really.
Yeah.
Yes.
I want to go like, so.
Blind.
I wanna go in.
I just wanna be blind.
I don't wanna be blind, but youknow, I wanna go in.
Yeah.
Being surprised because I be,because I love the Avatar
universe, so Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Also, we talk about it at leastfour hours a day, every day in
(10:42):
the room.
So I, I feel like I was alltalked out about it too, by the
time, yeah.
By the time the day was over,so.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But, you know, it's good to beable to talk about it a little
bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, in the time I've known Grant,you have been such a hard
worker.
Mm-hmm.
And there have been so manymoments where I was like, this
guy's just gonna pop off.
And then, and then you did.
And I love that for you and forall of us.
(11:04):
Because sometimes it doesn'thappen that way where there's a
lot of talented people that workreally hard and are also good
people that are still waitingfor their pop off moment.
A hundred percent.
Uh, not to start things off on acynical note, but I think
there's so much chance that hasto do with it and, you know, we
all know so many people thatwork hard and have taken all the
opportunities and have a lot oftalent and it's still just like
(11:24):
a bad run of luck or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Makes it hard for them to makeit.
So, yeah.
I feel very lucky too, be in theplace I am now and, uh, I'm
sure, you know, it'll be, stillcontinue to have ups and downs,
but yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think for me, and I, and I, wetalked about this too, is like.
You not only do you work hard,but you work well with others
and you've made so many greatconnections and genuine
(11:47):
connections.
Um, and I think that's sohelpful.
And I think that's a big reasontoo, that you're working on one
of your favorite shows ever.
Yeah, 100%.
I think it helps.
I always tell people the first.
Like rung of interviews orwhatever is just someone, you
know, being able to tell thepeople hiring you.
This person's not a serialkiller, which sounds good, but
(12:10):
legitimately, they know with methey're not getting someone
who's going to be unpleasantpersonally, you know?
Yeah.
Who's, who's going to at leasthave a modicum of decorum.
So, yeah.
For now, for now, I'm gonna,it's going to my head, unleash.
I'm gonna be, yes.
Very unpleasant going forward.
Um, okay.
So.
What are some things you do?
We call them spiritualpractices, but they don't have
(12:31):
to necessarily be spiritual.
They can be rituals.
What are some things you do tokeep yourself mentally healthy
and sane as an artist?
Um, so yeah, I'm not a, a veryspiritual person, so a lot of my
rituals are more pragmatic, Iguess.
Um, as Olivia can attest, Ithink physical exercise is very
important to me.
You know, I try to, yeah, once aday be sweating in some way or
(12:54):
another, whether it's the gym ora run or something.
I think it's just a helpful, um,expensive energy and it works
literally a different muscle, Ithink, than writing does.
You know, when you're sittingand staring at a.
Computer screen for that long.
I think it helps to get outsideor in a different building and,
and move some heavy stuff aroundor yeah, just run around a
little bit.
So is it a certain time everyday?
(13:15):
Um, well, I, I.
Usually go to the gym early inthe morning, but that is more
because my gym buddy goes at7:00 AM so I go at 7:00 AM Okay.
Shout out to Aaron.
Shout out to Aaron.
You have an accountabilitybuddy?
Yes.
Yes.
I have an accountability buddywho picks me up because up
until, uh, two days ago I didn'thave a car.
So he literally comes and picksme up and takes me to the gym
and we work out and then returnsme.
(13:36):
That's very cute.
Uh, it's very nice of him andactually a good way to start the
day because then you know, youhave a little time, you've been
awake for a couple hours by thetime.
Our, uh, our room starts and youkind of wanna come in awake, you
know, you wanna come in.
Yeah.
Having already gotten all thatstuff out.
'cause you might be asked tocome up with something good
right off the, right off thebat.
And if you're still kind ofrubbing the sleep outta your
eyes, that's a little tricky.
(13:56):
So yeah, I usually do that.
And then if I'm going on a run,it'll usually be in the
afternoon.
Okay.
Kind of after work.
Are you very like, um.
St, I wanna say stringent.
Is that the right word?
Are you like, every single day Imust do this?
Or is it more loose?
I weekends I'll take off.
Okay.
But most weekdays, certainly atleast, at least working out if
not working out running.
I have also noticed too, thatwhen you are like on script
(14:19):
writing, uh, if you do need,you're like, I just need a new
idea.
You go out running.
Yeah.
Like if it's like, sometimesit's not even regimen, it's
just, uh, I need to get awayfrom the screen, like you said,
and just go, and I've seen youcome back and be like, I did it.
I unlocked it.
And we just go, wow.
Yeah, because you can't reallydistract yourself when you're
running and you kind of, it's sounpleasant physically.
(14:41):
If you're doing it is.
It really is.
Right.
I hate running.
Your brain just goes anywhereelse.
For, since this is an audiomedium, I would like your
listeners to know that I don'tlook like I work out wrong.
Yeah, you do.
Every single day I do it, butlest you Google a picture of me
and like what in the.
So, yeah, but I guess that's my,my main daily practice as far as
(15:02):
that stuff goes.
Has that been like an alwaysthing or did you have to come to
find that?
That was a good question.
I kind of had to come to findthat I am not a very well
coordinated or athletic personand never really have been.
So I think I sort of thought ofphysical exercise is something I
would not enjoy, and it wasreally in my adult life that I
think I realized how importantit is to be doing both.
(15:23):
That even if you are.
Sort of, you know, I'm a hugereader as well, and there's
something about reading andwriting that are close enough to
each other that if that's kindof all you're doing that day,
um, I think your brain juststarts to get a little fuzzy.
And I think physical exercise isgreat in whatever capacity you
can do it, just to shake off thecobwebs and be such a different
thing.
So yeah, I'd say it wasn't untilI was in my twenties, maybe
(15:45):
early twenties, that I startedto really take that seriously.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Was there like a moment whereyou're like, okay, I need to be
active now?
How did it come to be?
Yeah, that's a good question.
I, I think it was kind of a slowprocess.
I had never, you know, I thinkfor a lot of, well, I, I
shouldn't speak for everybody.
I think as a kid I didn't reallyknow like how to work out and I
(16:07):
was a little worried abouthurting myself or something.
Mm-hmm.
So like that was definitely aprocess of learning and having
to go to the gym and figure outwhat is the safe way to do this.
Luckily I had friends who didthat, and running is something
I, uh, used to do with my dad.
Uh, I guess I still, he's aroundto be clear.
I still could run with him, but,you know, uh, just slightly
different ages now.
But, um, but yeah, so I, I knewI could run and I did enjoy it
(16:29):
occasionally, but I was justnever very regular with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that is the otherthing too much like with any
artistic craft, I think you'vegotta kind of be consistent
about it for it to go anywhereor for you to get any better.
So I just kind of realized Ican't be running, you know,
whenever I'm home or just kindof on a lark, I have to be a
little, a little better about.
Doing it frequently and at aregular schedule, so, yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of funny how like thebrain can actually change.
(16:52):
Like we were talking about thiswhere I felt like I was too
addicted to coffee.
So I started in the mornings Ido like ginger, cinnamon, lemon
tea, and then I, and then I eat,and then I have coffee and
eventually, I, I remember onemorning I was like, okay, you
know what?
I'm just gonna, I'm so tired,I'm just gonna have coffee.
I'm gonna skip the tea thing.
And I was like, I don't evenwant this.
Like my, I like changed thehabit in a way that doesn't feel
(17:12):
like work.
Yeah.
Does it feel like that, like,does, does working out feel like
work now?
Like you have to convinceyourself to do it, or it's just
part of you?
Rarely do I, if it's a long run,I do have to talk myself into
it.
If it's more than five miles,I'm really gonna have to, you
know, oh, grant, look at, lookin the mirror and say, you've
gotta, you just gotta do it.
Once you're out there, it won'tbe so bad.
But that, that's a harder thingto face down.
But no, everything else.
Yeah, it pretty much comesnaturally.
(17:33):
And like Olivia was saying, Ithink it does help, you know, if
I'm, if I'm working on a problemin a script or something, it is
huge to be able to say, okay,I'll, I'll, you know, sometimes
the best ideas occur to you whenyou're not trying to come up
with them.
So that's hugely helpful.
That was actually gonna be myquestion, is I, I don't think
I've ever asked you when you goout.
Because you need to think ofsomething or crack a scene or
(17:54):
something like that.
Do you out, I love thatverbiage.
Crack a scene, crack a scenebecause that, that's how I say
it.
Sure.
Yeah.
I, I like it.
Um, do you go out, like thinkingabout it or do you go out with
the intention not to think aboutit?
Do you listen to music?
Like what?
Do you have a mentality?
I do listen to music.
Um, I do try and not activelythink about it.
(18:15):
Okay.
Um, not chase it because Ithink, you know, I have that
going on in the back of my head.
Mm-hmm.
But when you let your brain sortof drift, I.
Um, I think it'd be easier tocome up with good ideas.
Yeah, I mean, there are a lot ofparts to my job, obviously, but
I think a lot of what day-to-dayscript writing is, or most of
the jobs I've taken in thewriting space are really about,
(18:36):
um, details and executingsomeone else's vision.
And especially if you are, say,a staff writer on a TV show to
me, my job is usually.
To make sure that my showrunneror the higher ups sort of get
what they'd like, which is amatter of just being kind of on
the ball, putting together goodsentences, putting together good
scenes, good scripts, et cetera.
And then occasionally you alsohave to come up with something,
(18:58):
I guess, higher or more artisticlike inspiration.
And I think that is a harderthing you can kind of buckle
down and force yourself to.
Do good craft, I guess, youknow, to just make a script that
works.
That sentences sound good,you're editing it, et cetera.
That's the thing.
You can kind of buckle down andforce your way through, but it's
really hard to force your way toartistic inspiration, I think.
Mm-hmm.
And specifically to coming upwith an idea that really
(19:19):
resonates.
So I, I think that's what'shelpful to kind of trick the
mind into focusing, lookingsomewhere else or doing
something else so that the goodideas can sneak in a little bit,
because it's also likeinspiration for somebody else's.
Inspiration.
Right, exactly.
Like it's not exactly your, it'snot your impulse.
It's like you're trying to findan impulse for a per a different
person's creative vision.
(19:39):
Exactly.
It's it and it, it is.
You kind of have to let go ofthe ego.
Element of a little bit, I thinkfor that, because I'm not trying
to think of the idea that mostresonates with me or that I
would most like necessarily, I'mtrying to think of an idea that
I think will solve a problemwith the script or whatever, but
will also give the people aboveme what they want.
Mm-hmm.
And especially working in likean established universe, which
(20:00):
we are, that means you'rerunning it by the people who
created that universe and you'remaking sure that everybody upped
the chain.
Is cool with it.
So even if I was like, it'd becool if something totally wild
ha you know, like, I can't throwthat out there.
That's not what the topic Yeah.
That's why I can't do your job.
I'd be like, everyone's nude andthey're holding menand.
What do we think They'd be like,uh, this is an afterschool
(20:22):
special.
Um, okay.
To, to switch topics for asecond.
Yeah.
What do you feel like, I knowyou said you're not spiritual.
Do you believe?
Do what?
Do you relate to being agnostic?
Do you believe that there's anyhigher power?
Do you, do you believe in any,any plants?
Do you believe in plants brand?
I do believe in plants.
(20:42):
I'm looking at some right now, Ibelieve strongly.
I love that.
Um, I'm, I'm probably a prettyfirm atheist.
Okay.
I guess I would describe myopinion as I was raised in the
church.
Um, uh, what was thedenomination?
Um, I was Episcopalian.
Okay.
And my grandparents were bothSunday school teachers, and I
went every Sunday with thempretty much through high school.
(21:03):
But I would say since I've beenconscious of my own beliefs, I
haven't really believed, I justthought it was nice for my
grandparents that I would go.
Mm-hmm.
I think I can say now becausethey're not around to listen to
this podcast.
Mm.
But, um, I, you know, I think tome.
Uh, I think there are definitelythings we can't understand, but
I don't necessarily believe inhigher power.
Mm-hmm.
If I have a religious orspiritual leaning, it's probably
something closer to secularBuddhism.
(21:25):
Yeah.
Um, or Taoism.
I really like reading aboutreligions and I was always
fascinated by that aspect of it,but I don't necessarily believe
or interact with the world inthat way.
I'm a pretty materialist person,I guess, in that sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did you have to like have acoming out to your family of
like, I am not religious.
No, not really.
My immediate family knew a frompretty much when I was like 13
(21:45):
or 14.
Oh, really?
Okay.
Because I was a snotty littlepunk, um, making fun of their
beliefs.
But uh, I'd never really talkedto my grandparents about it.
You know, I think that was suchan important part of their lives
and they were involved in thatcommunity and it just seemed
like it would be.
A waste of my effort and oftheir sort of good graces to
bring that up.
You know, I, I think it madethem feel good that I went with
(22:07):
them, and that was enough for meto be like, there's no, I don't
feel the need to have thisargument with them necessarily.
Yeah.
And they were pretty, I mean,obviously, you know, I, I guess
it depends on which churchyou're in, but our, our church
was relatively forgiving and,and my grandma who taught the,
uh, sort of youth school alwaysemphasized that the Bible was
written.
At a certain time and she would,she would sort of say, you know,
(22:29):
look how they talk about womenor something.
And she'd said, but this is fromthe Bronze Age.
So there were different culturalpractices.
And I always appreciated thatabout her, that she was like, I
believe strongly in this, butI'm also willing to put it in
its historical context as anolder document.
So, yeah, that's really great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like a lot of peopledon't wanna do that.
No, no.
It's a tough thing to do.
I mean, you know, I, I, I, Idon't think my grandpa did that,
(22:50):
for instance.
I think he was pretty like,Nope, this is, this is what it
is.
But, uh, but yeah, so I don'tknow how much that inspired my
own spiritual practices orbeliefs necessarily, but I
definitely think it is afascinating arena.
You know?
What about secular buddhismentices you.
Great question.
I.
Have just always been drawn toBuddhism and to a lesser extent
(23:13):
Taoism.
The nerdy answer that's probablytrue to some extent is that I
came up on Star Wars and they'vegot kind of some of that around
the force.
Oh, okay.
I probably made that connectionpretty early on.
I was like, whoa, I like that.
But you know, I think the thingthat I appreciate about Buddhism
is the same thing I appreciateabout something like stoicism,
which is this belief incontrolling what you can and
letting what you can't go.
(23:33):
Mm-hmm.
And in focusing on, you know,your own actions to some extent.
And then also the attempt tofind sort of a mental, calm and
balance.
You know, I do meditateoccasionally.
Mm-hmm.
But it is not like I attend aBuddhist temple regular or
anything like that.
But I love reading about it too.
I think spiritually, um, a lotof Buddhist writers are probably
(23:53):
closer to a thought pattern ofmy own or just something I'm
interested in.
And I think the practice ofmeditation too is something that
I think is very important.
I'm sure you guys are gonna get.
Meditation as, as, as one ofthese episodes at some point,
which is why I did not select itfor mine.
But I think, uh, no, I'd hate tomake you meditate two weeks, you
know?
Be terrible.
Um, yeah.
Do you, do you do a guidedmeditation or you just do sit in
(24:16):
silence?
Or what's your.
I sit in silence.
And it's another one of thosethings like running a writing
that I think definitely you getbetter at the more you do it.
And as Olivia can attest, therehave been times, even in our
relationship where I've beenreally good about doing it every
day.
Mm-hmm.
For longer and longer stretchesof time.
And then there are times whenI'm bad about my practice and
then it becomes incredibly hardto, you know, keep the mind
(24:37):
relatively clear for more thantwo or three minutes, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
Taoism is interesting.
I'm re I always reread this bookof the Dao de Jing.
Yeah, yeah.
Jing.
Yeah, we talked about it thattoo.
Um, I just kind of flip todifferent pages in it now and
it's so I, like, sometimes I canwrap my mind around and it, and
(24:58):
sometimes I'm like, what is itsaying?
Like, it feels like it's justsaying like, there is nothing
when you realize you arenothing, you are whole.
And I'm like, that sounds nice,but what's it mean?
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one of the advantages,I've read a couple of
translations of that, um, bookand you know, obviously it's so
short and there are so many justsort of, it's, it's so segmented
(25:18):
for those who haven't read it.
But I dunno, I, I think there issomething valuable in attempting
to grapple with things that areirrational or difficult to
understand.
Another thing I appreciate aboutBuddhism is like zen koans,
where they're sort of, they'renot, riddles is even too strong
of a word.
They're just like odd.
Questions that you ask.
Mm-hmm.
Try and sort of trick the mindinto stopping thinking or
achieving enlightenment.
And again, it's not like I'm anenlightened Buddhist or, or
(25:41):
Taoist or anything like that,but I, I think that ability to
try and sort of shut off yourmind or contemplate stuff that
seems like it's outside of.
The logic, uh, day to of yourday-to-day is really nice.
Yeah.
And I feel like that's what alot of religions give people in
different ways too, and I feellike it kind of is all the same.
Yeah.
In a way.
There was a great quote that wewere talking about that was in
(26:02):
that book, the Doja Jing oflike, if you're on a ladder
either going up or down, it'sstill shaky.
It was about success and failurethat if you're climbing a ladder
or going down the ladder, you'restill shaky.
Yeah.
It's like, how can you be sure.
In your own two feet, which wewere talking about how.
Yeah, I think that's really, andespecially I, I know you guys
are focused on sort of people increative industries and, and
(26:25):
how, how the career path isgoing and how can spiritual
stuff can help.
And I think one thing aboutthose philosophies that draw me
in is the idea that you.
Are not in control of so much ofyour setting and of how the
world functions.
And all you can really decide ishow you are going to respond and
how you're gonna act.
And you have to also do thatknowing that even if you do
everything right, even if youtake an action that you think is
(26:46):
moral or ethical or, or theright move.
That it still might not workout, and you just have to be
comfortable in that action.
Mm.
And to me, the ladder steadyingof feet thing is, is about
exactly that, of like, you can'tcontrol what the ladder's doing
and you can't control what theindustry is doing, what people
around you're doing.
You can only control what you'redoing and you can, you have to
accept that, you know, that kindof shrinks the scope of what you
(27:08):
have to worry about in a little,a little way.
And kind of lets you off thehook too, of like, look, you
can't judge.
Internally, how you're doing byexternally, how things have gone
for you, because so much of thatis so far outside your control.
Mm-hmm.
You really have to becomfortable, I think, with
yourself as an artist and aperson outside of the
externalities that would dictatethat to you.
Do you feel two questions.
(27:30):
Do you feel now or have you everfelt that you are defined by
your success as a writer?
No.
Okay.
You've never felt that?
No.
Actually was just having thistalk at the gym with my gym
buddy.
Shout.
Shout out to Aaron again.
Hey Aaron.
But no, you know, I think to me,I.
I like to write, it's what I'mpassionate about, and this is
(27:52):
different admittedly than itcould be for actors or
directors, paths that requiresome sort of external
validation.
You know, I can go write in myoffice by myself, and that
functionally is the same whethersomeone's paying me to do it or
not, whether I'm working in anestablished universe or not.
If I'm writing, I'm writing.
Acting and directing things likethat I understand are different
because, you know, you can'tjust walk into a room and be
(28:13):
acting by yourself.
It has a different, we do it allthe time talking about you can
be doing that as well.
But, but I think there is a, uh,validation from the audience
that you get as well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, when I write anepisode of something, there,
there are still episodes, uh,I've written years ago that I
still haven't aired.
Animation takes a long, longtime.
And, I don't get that directconnection to like seeing an
(28:35):
audience react or something likethat.
Um, and I also have been,working a long time and working
very hard to move up, but at thesame time, I never felt less
like a writer when I was a PA orsomething like that.
Mm.
I think to me, because it'sartistically important to me,
it's something I'm aware that Iwould be doing regardless of my
success or failure.
And also that, like, I feel verylucky in my success and I, you
(28:56):
know, if, if I'm willing rightnow to judge myself at a moment
of success as like, hooray, youdid it.
You're a writer.
Mm-hmm.
Sometime in the not too distantfuture, I'll have to judge
myself again and say, Hey,you're not, you're out of a job.
You're between jobs.
Does that make you not a writer?
So I think it's important todisconnect those identities from
That's really smart.
Yeah.
I had a similar thing with likefeedback.
(29:16):
Like there was a time where Iwas asking my reps to get
feedback from auditions.
Mm-hmm.
And then it was great feedback.
It was like amazing.
And you felt awesome.
And then every so often, likenot a lot, but there was, I
remember there was one castingdirector who was like.
It's just not strong enough andI was devastated.
Yeah.
I can't ask for feedback anymorebecause they give exactly that
thing.
Like if I'm gonna, yeah.
If I'm gonna, I can't accept thegood and not the bad, so I just
(29:38):
should just mm-hmm.
Do what I, if I feel that it wasgood, then that has to be, yeah.
Enough, and, and maybe alsoeven, you know, again, I
understand that like there's somany different variations on the
creative thing and it's not allgonna be the same, but like I
would also say that I think it'sfair for you to disconnect.
Someone could tell you thatabout your acting.
Mm-hmm.
Well, that's just their opinion,you know what I mean?
(29:58):
And like whether you take thatunder consent, I don't even know
how you would take that underconsideration or not, but.
But that has nothing to do withthe talent that you bring.
You know what I mean?
Like really trying to be like,Hey, like I'm doing my best here
and it does not affect my ego tohere.
Someone else didn't like whatI'm putting out there.
Mm-hmm.
Because like why should I beworried about that?
Or if I am worried about that,I'm worried about it for career
(30:19):
reasons of, okay, I'll figureout some way to do that rather
than.
Now I feel fundamentally thatI'm like invalidated in some way
in my artistic identity becausesomeone didn't like what I was
doing.
Right.
You know, because like, again,writing very different, but like
I have never felt, people haveread my scripts and not cared
for them.
People have rejected them.
People have just not read them.
And I think you can't take thatstuff personally because you
(30:40):
know, if you believe in whatyou're doing, that's gotta be
enough and you can learn andadjust.
And try to get better all thetime.
But at the same time, like nottaking it too, too personally
when someone just doesn't carefor what you're doing.
At least.
At least that's how I treat it.
'cause you know, not everyonewill.
Do you think that's somethingthat you worked at that
mentality?
Because I hear me hearing yousay that I, oh, I wish I could
(31:01):
do that.
Yeah, that is something I, I'mlike, I am almost envious.
And we've obviously, we'vetalked about this, but yeah.
Is this something that like youthink just over the 10 years
you've been working.
That you've gotten better at oris it something that you've
always kind of known or, I, Ithink maybe I have gotten a
(31:22):
little bit better about it.
That's, I mean, you know, mypersonality pretty well.
That's also just me, I think alittle bit where I, I try to
really divorce my feeling aboutmyself from I.
Things outside of my control alittle bit.
Um, and I've, you know, I didn'tthink I was going to go on this
career path either.
I didn't think I was gonna be awriter.
So to me, what'd you think youwere gonna be?
A professor of literature.
(31:43):
Wow.
Okay.
You know, for the money inanother universe.
Yeah.
Al turns out you can wear TweedJackets even if you don't do
that.
No, I, I, you know, I.
Thought I was gonna do that.
And writing was sort of a pipedream.
And I graduated from college andgot into grad schools, and then
I just thought, I'll give it atry for a couple years.
I would love to do that.
(32:03):
That would be incredible.
That would be a cherry on top oflife if I got to do that.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And why not try, I've got a fewyears, I'm in my early twenties.
What, what else am I doing?
So I, I came out and workedreally hard to get where I am,
and it's worked out wonderfully,but to me it's all been a
cherry, like this is incrediblethat I get to do any of this.
It's a treat and it's not atreat I take lightly, and it's
also not a treat that I thinklasts for forever.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like I am so lucky and delightedto do it, and I know that there
(32:26):
is no guarantee that that willcontinue.
You know, there never is.
I, I wonder, I'm wondering this,and I, I, this could be so far
off base, but I, I feel likeit's actually a very unique.
Perspective of an artist to feelthat sure of themselves and just
consistently like, it seems likethat is how you've been.
And I wonder if it's tied to youbeing an atheist at all.
(32:47):
Like if, if, if you feel thatlike there is nothing beyond it
and it's just due, does it insome way release the pressure of
like you just are fully choosingyour own destiny.
There's no other input.
I think there's maybe an elementof that.
You know, I actually was, when Iwas in college, a friend of mine
brought me to his youth group asa token atheist.
One summer, every, every week.
(33:09):
Did you have to wear a littlelike badge?
Yeah, a little, little letter.
It was like a young men's group.
So, so they knew, he sort ofintroduced me as that, like this
is my string grant.
And um, and he was a veryreligious guy.
All these guys were veryreligious guys, except for me,
Uhhuh.
But I actually kind ofappreciated that he was trying
to go outside his perspective.
Anyway, he brought me there andwe were talking about this very
thing of like, what, what doesthat do to your sense of destiny
(33:31):
or predestination?
You know, I, I think to me, Iguess it's not even that I can
chart my own destiny so much asthat.
I don't think there is adestiny.
Like I don't know what comesnext.
I don't think it's predeterminedand like I'm just doing my best
in the moment and know, knowingthat things could change and
that would not necessarily be areflection of.
You know, whether I have angeredor gained the approval of some
(33:53):
higher power, that might just belike, bad luck or, or good luck.
And you know, it's kind ofoutside of my control.
And I said I would have a hardtime, I think, getting outta bed
in the morning if I thoughtthere was a plan in place
already, or if I thought therewas, you know, that it was all
predestined.
Not to get all Calvinist, but Iwas like, if I already knew.
Before I was born, it wasdetermined if I was going to
heaven or hell or, or thatsomeone knew exactly what my
(34:14):
life would look like.
I think I would have a hard timesort of functioning day to day.
Mm-hmm.
And my religious, you know, thefriends, the, the people in this
youth group said the opposite,where they were like, by God, I,
I don't think I could get out ofbed in the morning if.
I didn't feel like there was aplan in place if I didn't feel
like there was the al the handof the Almighty in, in what I
was doing day to day, which Ithought was an interesting
difference in perspective.
So maybe that could havesomething to do with it.
(34:35):
But I also think, I actuallydon't think I'm making my own
destiny so much as like I'm justtrying to do my best day in and
day out, and my destiny is verymuch out of my hands.
But I don't think it's inanyone's hands.
I think it's, you know, in, inHollywood, producer's hands,
boy, worse, worse than God, forsure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess, you know, and just lucktoo.
I really, really can't emphasizeenough.
This sounds like I'm saying Ididn't work hard for my job or
(34:56):
didn't earn or anything, whichlike I worked super hard.
Yes, you did.
And super lucky to have it.
I, and, and I think luck playedan enormous part of, just like,
I, you know, when you, when Ilook back at the path my career
has taken, it's like, well, Itook this job and I didn't get
that job, which means I tookanother job and then I met this
person on that job and thisperson introduced me to that
person and they hired me foranother job.
And, you know, it's, it's aninsane string of, of
(35:17):
coincidences that lead me toanything good or bad.
And so, yeah, I dunno, I justtry not to be too attached to
that.
Mm-hmm.
Because, yeah.
Did you ever have a moment oflike, this is terrible, it's not
working, I'm gonna leave this.
Did you have a low point ever?
Did I have a low point?
I mean, I didn't have a momentlike that where I thought.
This is terrible and it's notworking.
(35:38):
And again, I think it's what Iwas talking about earlier where
like I never stopped writing.
I have always been writing.
I will continue to write even ifthings are going poorly.
Well, whatever.
I'm always, always writing,writing, writing, which I think
is the only way you get betterand also just very important to
me.
So that was always somethingthat I was gonna keep doing no
matter what.
There were definitely moments inmy career where, you know, when
I first first moved out here, Iwas an onset PA on a.
(36:00):
Uh, wrestling show, uh, cleaningup people's blood, taking
wrestlers to the hospital.
Oh, cleaning porta-potties.
It was, you know, it was apretty gnarly job.
And, uh, you know, and, and as,as some people may know, onset
PAs, you have atrocious hours.
You are the bottom of thepecking order.
I mean, it's a really, reallytough job.
Yeah.
So that was probably the lowpoint, and that was my entry
(36:21):
point of the industry.
You know, I, I, I often jokewhen I'm on generals or
something that, that I startedoff at a low point.
Everything, everything sincethat job, that wasn't even a
terrible job.
You know, people have a lotworse.
But, um, man, every job sincethat job, I've been like, it's
air conditioned in here.
Like, no one's, no one's up, nowrestlers are screaming at me.
This is great.
(36:41):
Um, so that was probably my lowpoint, but honestly, no.
Again, I know that makes itmaybe a little less interesting
is what I think.
It doesn't.
I, uh, yeah.
I don't, I don't think Olivia,you, you, we've been through
that a long time.
I mean, have you ever seen me belike, I'm outta here.
No.
No.
Not necessarily.
I guess another question maybefor, for Grant specifically is
(37:01):
maybe not career wise, but asfar as like you talked about
exercise is important to you.
Um, and I guess we'll keep theword spiritually or just
ritually Yeah.
For that.
Does that help?
Not necessarily career wise, butjust when life is tough?
Yeah.
I would say it does as well.
I think the big thing with bothwriting and exercise, actually
(37:24):
that helps me.
I, I have a, despite my.
Lack of religion.
I think I have, uh, someProtestant work ethic in me, for
sure.
Where I am, I constantly am likeI have to achieve something, I
have to work hard.
Mm-hmm.
And there is something reallynice, uh, and I did this, you
know, this exercise scratchesthe itch, as does my daily
writing.
It's just nice to know at theend of the day, even if
(37:46):
everything went wrong, like Idid one, I did get that one
thing done.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think exercisecan, can absolutely serve that
purpose.
And I also think like if you'rea writer or something or or
doing an art form that you cando completely by yourself and,
and in some capacity like that,just feeling like every day I
got 30 minutes in or somethinglike that.
Mm-hmm.
Is such a huge psychologicalweight off your shoulders.
(38:07):
At least for me.
That's what I've found.
So do you, your daily writing,is it.
Is it now your writing for theshow, or do you have your own
personal daily writing that youdo for your own stuff?
I mean, now just because of howbusy we are, it's mostly the
show.
Yeah.
I still find time to write myown things a little bit and,
and, and sort of be thinking andplaying around with that stuff.
(38:27):
Um, you know, it, it can betough too, I think to do
multiple projects at once,which, which I have done before
as well, where you're sort ofhaving to switch between.
How, what, what world you'reliving in, how you're thinking,
how you're writing.
Those are different modes ofexpression.
Um, so I, you know, I stillwrite.
Daily.
Uh, and when I'm working reallyhard, I try to carve out a
(38:48):
little space for individualstuff, but I also try to give
myself some grace of like, look,at least you did some.
Mm-hmm.
Some writing of some kind, youknow?
And especially feeling luckyenough to get to do creative
writing professionally.
You know, I think that helpstimes when I've done, I.
Non-creative writing for money,I've definitely made sure to
carve out that time tocreatively write stuff.
Yeah.
Because that does not quitescratch the same itch when
you're writing about, not tothrow any companies I've worked
(39:10):
for under the bus, but likeweather satellites for instance.
Or not necessarily just off thetop of my ear, uh, don't quite
scratch that creative itch.
Yeah.
This was delightful.
Great.
Yeah.
Okay.
Is there anything that, that youwould like to plug or that we
should Yeah, we have to watchAvatar.
Please watch Avatar Last.
Airbender and Legend of Cora.
Okay.
Which is leaving Netflix I thinkprobably will have left by the
time this comes up.
(39:31):
And, uh, watch Avatar SevenHavens when it comes out.
We're really proud of it.
Yay.
I think it's gonna be good anduh, yeah, it's.
A dream.
A dream to work on for sure.
So I love that.
Um, wait, so are we running now?
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Now we have to talk about this.
Do you talk about this on Mike?
We have to run.
Do we have to run?
You wanna talk about it on mic?
I don't wanna run.
Wait, may I, may I chime in?
(39:51):
Yes, please.
I think.
Okay.
Just for ease of, because Ithink I worked up to the amount
of working out and running thatI do, and I feel like, I feel
like if you just do maybe likea, like a walk or if it's like
15 minutes of exercise a day.
I know you guys have been doingyoga, I think, right?
Does that count?
Yeah, I think so.
I don't know if that feels likea cop out to you every day.
(40:11):
It shouldn't to me'cause you'realready doing the exercise, so
why should you have to, youknow?
Yes.
But, but I, but I do it likethree times a week.
Okay.
So I think we could say for twoweeks we do it every Now are we
gonna do the Monday throughFriday grant rules or are we
gonna say every day?
For two weeks.
Some form of exercise that likegets our heart rate up.
Let's say that.
I like that.
I think that's, yeah.
Okay.
Get your heart rate a quickjaunt.
(40:31):
Okay.
Every day.
Get your hair.
Sweat.
Sweat.
We have to sweat.
Get a little sweat.
Which is, look in Los Angeles.
That's not that hard.
Yeah.
You know, it's hot.
You just walk outside, you'resweating.
Already done.
Done and done.
Okay.
That's what we're gonna do fortwo weeks.
Then we'll report back.
Sounds good.
About things that have changedand grown.
Yeah.
And I'm excited.
(40:52):
Me too.
I should have picked somethingweirder.
No, this is good.
I couldn't think of anything.
Thanks for being our guest.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Thanks for having on guys.
Love.
Love you too.
I love you in a different way.
Thanks, Harry.
I feel the same.
Uh, you guys are awesome.
And uh, yeah, good luck talkingabout how it's been going.
Thank you.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, this has been SDASpiritual Practices.
(41:13):
The Disgruntled Artist Artist.
Boop boop.
See you next time.
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