Ep 30 From Division To Dialogue: Faith, Law, And Community

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What does real return look like—personally, communally, and scripturally? We sit down with two thoughtful voices who don’t dodge hard texts or hard truths to explore unity, covenant, and the ethics behind our deepest beliefs. From the first beat, we ask whether respect and listening can replace rivalry, and whether love shows up most in the actions we refuse to take when our thoughts go dark. That opens the door to a bracing, text‑first examination of repentance: Deuteronomy 30 as a blueprint for turning that begins with us before it blossoms into restoration.

The debate then moves into contested ground. If the Most High’s laws don’t change, how do we understand forgiveness in exile when sacrifice isn’t possible? Can Solomon’s temple prayer support atonement without blood, and if so, what does that do to substitutionary claims? One side argues that prophecy demands a Messiah whose atonement addresses humanity’s deepest separation; the other presses the ethics of innocent blood and the impossibility of justifying the wicked by condemning the righteous. Along the way, we revisit first principles: rules for testing prophecy, the timeline of fulfillment, and whether salvation must be tangible, like the Exodus, or spiritual, like freedom from the second death.

Name theology raises the stakes even higher. Does covenant fidelity require publicly bearing and practicing the divine name, along with Torah, Sabbath, and the feasts? Or do we “make the name known” by faithfully representing the Father’s will? We also examine whether righteousness existed before later atonement claims—Noah, Abraham, Hezekiah—and what those examples imply about grace, obedience, and identity today. No one gets an easy win. What we offer instead is clarity on where the paths diverge and a shared commitment to live the return we advocate: action over posturing, charity over caricature, rigor over rumor.

If you value thoughtful faith, careful Scripture, and honest disagreement without the noise, this conversation will meet you where you are and challenge you to go deeper. Listen, take notes, bring your questions, and then tell us what text or takeaway shifted your view. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves a good study, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
Oh praise to the most high.
What's going on, y'all?
It's your boy of beer.
And what this is.
It's been a while, though, man.

(01:08):
Stay still.
So everyone goes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
I'll go ahead and guys make it real quick.
Everybody else wants for thelast decade or so.
But um I thank you guys for yourtime today.
I'm looking forward to having aconversation with our public
hope sharing some differentideas that we wanted to make
sure I have platforms yourpublic in regards to what we

(01:43):
understand some of the thingsthat we have discovered on our
journey.
I'm really excited about beinguh brother post.

SPEAKER_05 (01:56):
Yeah, what's going on, everybody?
This is uh Pope Julius inChicago.
Bible study um five editions atthe same time.

SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
So good to be here.
Oh, praises.
I already know who I am.
But hey, honestly, we had thebrother Pope on the like of a, I
think it was like three or fourepisodes ago.
Yeah, me and him had a goodbuild, man.
Y'all go check that that uh thatepisode out.
I think it's like episode 22,23, or something like that.

(02:35):
But check it out though, man.
It was a good build, man.
And you know, me, every time meand the brother Pope sit down
and have conversation, it'salways a good build.
It's always that a fine that uhI always learn something from
the brother.
I mean, everybody, everyeverybody that I talked to about
the brother, I always say thatand I always have to put that in

(02:55):
there because it's like, youknow, even though we don't
believe it.

(04:38):
And got their questionsanswered, and you know, it was
an audience.
I had to bring these twobrothers together because I
respect and I love both of thema lot and I basically learned
from both of them from bothsides too.
So I had to bring both of themtogether, and we just have a
real retroactive likeconversation just about
everything.
You know, and I just want to seethey side a software.

(05:00):
Without further ado, I'm gonnago ask the first question.
How do y'all feel about, like,how do y'all feel that, you
know, our the the way our peopleare are leaning towards right
now fit like in a in a in aspiritual manner?
Like, do you think that it couldbe better, or do you think that,
you know, like we we really arelike we get in there, but we not

(05:24):
we, like, you know, like theysay, you know, we almost there,
but we didn't finish the race,or do we think y'all think that
we kind of far off as far asspiritually coming together,
being united, and just comingand and understanding and being
able to be objective andunderstand and and love each
other with the respect that weshould have with each with one

(05:44):
another.
Do y'all how what do y'all thinkwe at with that?

SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
I I I'll I'll go ahead and go first.
I just think that um to speak toyour point about where we are, I
think this conversation thatwe're having today is a great uh
representation of what it couldbe, right?
Um, you know, in terms of loveand respect as the key that you

(06:10):
mentioned.
And I think where we're comingto understand is that we have to
be able to listen to oneanother.
We really have to we have to dothat.
We don't really have, I wouldsay, um, you know, leaders in in
our communities that can bringus all together as a people.
I think we have leaders, but Idon't think we're you know, we

(06:30):
don't have uh a group or a bodyof of leaders that all of us are
listening to, right?
And I don't know for whateverreason that's the case, but I
would say today's a greatexample of what we could do um
to become uh better people andto be more seriously in tune by
just listening to one anotherand not necessarily trying to

(06:52):
judge one another, but justpresenting you know, and I
wouldn't say our truth, I wouldsay the truth, right?
Because there is the truth, andthen of course there's things
that are not necessarily true.
And and when we define that, Ithink we can agree upon that.
And I think when we startlooking at how we treat each
other, because that wassomething I was teaching on
today about one of the reasonswhy the most high destroyed the

(07:16):
earth and um with a flood issimply because of how man was
treating one another, talkedabout how they were doing
violence, and in Hebrew thatword is called Hamas, and in
English it's called Hamas, youknow, which you have names
between um the uh you know theJewish state and the people of
the Palestinians and in Gaza orwhat they call this uh a group

(07:38):
called Hamas.
Well they get that name from theword Hamas, and Hamas means
violence, and it means uhopposition, and it means to, you
know, to be in hostility.
So I think what we need to do isis understand some of the
lessons that you know we'resupposed to learn in this life,
and we have life lessons that wecan learn from or we can extract

(08:02):
from.
So one of the first examples wehave of um you know the most
high saying I had enough um issimply because the people were
not sensitive to how they shouldtreat one another and how you
know and how they interact withone another.
So that's my take on that.

SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Okay.
What's what you feeling, bro?

SPEAKER_05 (08:24):
Um man, I think I think we're uh certainly a a
little far left.
Um I think right now we've gotall of the carts ahead of the
horses that we're notnecessarily shooting for what's
important, right uh more thananything else.

(08:44):
Uh because because it's such ascattered subject and there are
layers to it, uh huh, I thinkthat makes it difficult for
people to narrow down what thepoint really is.
Right.
Uh for me, for me, it is uh arestorative relationship with
the most high, I believe, comesfirst.
Um I believe it's like firstchronicles talks about how if

(09:07):
his people who are called by hisname will humble themselves and
seek his face turned from theirsin.
And so um we can't get wherewe're gonna get without the most
high's hand and everything.
And it doesn't come from maybesome of the secular views that
we've been given as approachesto change.
And that's what people start touse more.

(09:31):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
That was uh that's a great a great um text that you
use there.
Um the idea about if his peopleit's always a matter of now of
if, right?
So it's the theoretical um ifthey would if they were turned.
Right.
Um but of course we'd have tolook at it a little closer

(09:56):
because a lot of times when theyuse that word if in the
scriptures, it's really not a umit's a more or less a relative
pronoun like kind of like not ifa when.
So it's not if it's really likewhen right in Hebrew that is

(10:17):
aim.
So when my people.
So it's a matter of choice,right?
Um, so you're right about that.
And the thing is, is when youtalk about turning their face or
you know, turn and seek me,right?
And l and forsake their sins,and they turn their face and
they look look towards him.
Um what's your understandingabout that, Pope?

(10:39):
How how could people who don'treally necessarily know who he
is, how could they seek hisface?
And what is seeking his face?

SPEAKER_05 (10:51):
Well, uh it's impossible for a man who is
found as as being a uh anon-believer to make it without
there being some type of a draw.
And so uh the draw comes fromfrom the fishermen or the
labormen who are out who areactually living the life

(11:12):
themselves, being some form ofan example and being able to
carry that message to them.
Uh sometimes it's throughactions, other times it's
through words that are followedby actions.

SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
And that's that's deep.
That's deep.
Because I I do definitely feelthat, you know, how we how we
turn back and we we honor themost high is with definitely
with our actions.
And and just making sure thateven though, you know, we have
those messed up thoughts,because we all have those messed
up thoughts, we can admit thaty'all.

(11:48):
But when we do have those messedup thoughts, that we don't act
upon them.
You know what I'm saying?
And I think that's what like themost high is like really sitting
back and watching, like, man, ishe go active find that messed up
thought?
I know he had it like, but is hegoing to act on it?
Is he going to act upon it andand what what does he feel like
or does he feel like the replicrepercussions, repercussions of

(12:11):
this action will be?
I don't know, I I'm just, youknow, paraphrasing, I don't know
if that's what the most I thinkor not, but you know, I just
think that uh we we definitely Iagree with you.
The action is basically one ofthe biggest steps to you know
moving back, turning back.
So with that being said, how doy'all feel like we would like

(12:32):
our people can uh can unifyunder under under a banner and
with with the different beliefs?
And a different you know,different way to get back and
praise God.

SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
That's a good question.
I think what it's gonna take forfor us to come together to
unify, unfortunately, it's gonnatake judgment.
That's that's what it's gonnatake.
It's not gonna take, you know.
I used to be of theunderstanding that, you know, we
could talk and we could havepeople, um, as um Brother Polk

(13:07):
was talking about how you wouldsend people out there who was
living a life and talking tothem.
Yeah.
Kind of like in the days of theprophets, when the prophets were
sent to go speak to the childrenof Israel and tell them what
their faults were, so they hadto make it known to them about
what it is.
But we understand now from aHebraic perspective that the

(13:28):
most high has clearly made itknown that for us to turn back
to him is something where wehave to uh it comes to us
ourselves.
We have to this action we haveto do on ourselves.
So what I mean by on ourselvesis that in the idea of the
Hebrew language and the way thescriptures were written, there's

(13:52):
things that can either be doneto a person or can be done by a
person.
Okay.
So someone can do the actionthemselves, or the action can
happen to them, right?
If the action is happening tothem, then it's causative.
So someone's causing somethingto happen to them.
So, and and there's another ideathat says that the individual is

(14:14):
the one who's doing the actionon themselves, which they would
call reflexive, like, hey, I'mgonna dress myself, I bathe
myself, I wash myself.
So the most high calls thechildren of Israel, his people
that are called by his name,which we'll get into about his
name, it says that you have toreturn back unto me.

(14:38):
So it's not it's not a a a whatthey would say a uh a plural, it
is used in a singular, and it'sin the book of Deuteronomy,
chapter number 30.
Um I uh is it I don't know ifit's okay, but is it okay if I
read just a little part of thatso the listeners can hear?
Yeah, go for it.

(14:59):
Yeah, so in the book ofDeuteronomy, chapter number 30,
and I'm I'm gonna do my best tojust you know stay away from the
Hebrew because a lot of peopledon't wouldn't know what I'm
talking about.
And if I do speak it, I do wantto explain whatever I'm saying.
So here it says in chapternumber 30 and verse number one
in the book of Deuteronomy, itsays, When the time arrives that

(15:21):
all these things have happenedto you or come upon you, both
the blessing and the curse,which I have presented to you,
and you are there among thenations to which Yahweh your
Elohim has driven you, then atlast you, singular, will start
thinking about what's happenedto you, singular, and you will

(15:42):
return to Yahweh your Elohim,and you will pay attention to
what he has said, has sent,which will be exactly what I am
ordering you to do today, youand your children with all of
your heart and with all of yourbeing.
Then he goes on to talk about atthat time he'll reverse your

(16:03):
exile.
So I brought that scripture outjust basically to bring up the
fact it's not something thatsomeone else is going to do for
you, it's something that youhave to come to on your on your
own.
Going back to the questions youasked, what could we do to bring
us together?
And the answer is nothing.

(16:24):
According to the scriptures.
What's the group can do?
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
So, okay.
That's an interesting take.
What's you what's your take onthat, bro?

SPEAKER_04 (16:40):
Well, I mean, I I suppose uh my question would be,
before I can give a response,would be what is looking, what
is it what does it look like forus to come back, uh come
together?
What does that really look like?

SPEAKER_05 (16:56):
Um, I mean, um people are expecting that
different tribes who haven'toperated with one another in
many years will be able to cometogether and not have any
differences without even knowingthe differences, they're already
fighting each other.

(17:17):
Right.
And so, excuse me.
I think what's important is umis that we all dig dig into the
path in which we've just beenlaid before us.

SPEAKER_04 (17:30):
Um, I think that we'll discover more and have a
greater understanding and morewisdom towards the end.
Though there is enough to gatherwhat's really happening right
now.
And and and so, uh, but thosethings are gonna be debatable.
And so if we're going to have todebate, let's debate on

(17:50):
something that's gonna change,not something that's not, you
know what I mean?
Um because because all of usbelieve what we believe, right?

SPEAKER_05 (18:00):
And the truth is, unless we feel like we've
received uh a download that'sdifferent from what we've
already received, then that'sprobably not gonna change.
However, that doesn't make usadversarial to one another.
You know, uh uh we're we're twodifferent fruit on the same

(18:20):
tree.
And so to come to understandthat, I think means that we're
not as antithetical to oneanother as society would like
for us to really be.
Right.
You know what I mean?
Um, you know, we can choose tofocus on on our differences or
or our commonalities.
And uh, I don't think eithereither one of those things put

(18:42):
us in a at a point of of beingheretical, to have a mutual
respect for one another in sucha way.

SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
That so, right?
I mean, that is crazy.
Both of y'all kind of likeagree.
But it it the way that y'all gotto it and landed the plane was
beautiful.
So I uh I definitely agree.
It it's gonna take an extraneoussituation.
Like we, it it's definitelygonna be our choice, but it's

(19:13):
hard for us right now.
Because like Pope said, it'sit's hard for us to to have that
agreement and be like and berespectful at times.
You know what I'm saying?
Because one thing it's easy forme.

SPEAKER_05 (19:24):
Okay, it's easy for me, and I'm gonna tell you why I
say it's easy.
Because I understand in thebigger scheme of things where I
sit, regardless to what anybodyreally tries to say.
Okay.
To me.
Right.
Now, now now that's just metalking about me.
Yeah, yeah.
Talking about nobody else.
Yeah.
Um, I I look at at this maybe alot differently than than some

(19:46):
would.
Or some have come to understandit, you know, but seeing where
scripture talks about the theengrafting into the into the
family of the most high, bebeing given the right to be a
son of the most high, um or achild of the most high.
You know what I mean?
Um you know, and it's just Idon't have no lack of of a sense

(20:11):
of security in what it is that Ibelieve.
And so um so for me, it's abouttrying to live that thing out.
You know, which I I don't I dothat free of uh penalty in that
sense.
You know what I mean?
Right.
I'm able to make make my errorsand learn from them and use the

(20:33):
grace of the most high to moveforward.

SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
And so can I can I can I um ask you a question in
regards to what you said aboutum someone being given the right
to become the son of God orbecome one of the children?
Um is that stating thatindividuals who subscribe or

(21:01):
understand themselves to alreadybe the children of Elohim or the
children of Yahweh prior to umthe understanding that you have
to believe in order to becomethat?
Because we understand from theoriginal writings that it says
that the children of Israel,like Israel is my son, and then

(21:22):
when he's talking about it, it'snot talking about him in a um
well, the context that issingular, but he's addressing
the nation of people when that'sbeing said, because Moses was
told to convey that message toPharaoh that Israel is my son,
making reference to the nationof Israel, the God of the Hebrew
people.
So so by definition, they'realready his children, and

(21:46):
there's other passages, ofcourse, in the prophets that
talk about, and even inDeuteronomy, it talks about how
the children that these people,these these group of people are
already his children, they'rehis sons and they're his
daughters.
So if they're his sons anddaughters, do they ever lose
their right to be his son anddaughter and then therefore

(22:08):
having to become his sons anddaughters again?
Or how how would you um howwould you reconcile those two
things?

SPEAKER_05 (22:18):
Well, uh, here's what I say.
First of all, there are thereare two paths.
Uh the New Testament addressesthis from two angles, and we see
a highlighting of this even inin the book of Revelation, where
it talks to a group of people.
Uh the writer is is talking to agroup of people and he's saying,
Hey, I know that you you say youare Jews, but you are not.

(22:40):
And so um there's a culturalgraph that's that's natural, and
then there is a path through theatonement that the most high
gave through his son, Yahshua,Hamasia.

SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Okay, so with the actual atonement understanding
that you have, did thatatonement then make you a son or
a daughter as or 'cause Iunderstand what you're saying
about the one is the thespiritual concept, and then of
course the one is the physicalum children of Israel.

(23:20):
Um and when he was when he wasdiscussing it to Pharaoh, he was
not only just talking about thephysical, he's talking about the
spiritual.
Um that they are his children.
And he also said that you know,and not just there, but all in
the other areas that he toldthem that I'm the one who
birthed you, I'm the one who didthis for you.

(23:42):
So my my question was G is like,did they lose their ability to
be sons and daughters?

SPEAKER_05 (23:48):
Well, no.
How how would they why how wouldthey have lost it if they never
knew they had it?

SPEAKER_02 (23:52):
Well, no, they they did know.
They knew that they were hischildren, and we were told on
several occasions that they werehis children.
So when he when he goes to theNew Testament I'm asking, are
you making reference to peoplewho don't know?
Like, for example, like the gentlike the Gentiles versus the
children of Israel, because whenit says that you know, you

(24:13):
mentioned the uh those who saythey're Jews or not, that
doesn't um you know consist ofthe whole uh family of well if
if if we consider in context whowas it was uh it was being
spoken to but yeah at that timeit was a group of Gentiles.
Yeah.

(24:33):
So that didn't have anything todo with the children of Israel
then.

SPEAKER_05 (24:37):
Correct.

SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
Correct.
And the Jews are not they don'tyou know consist of all twelve
tribes.
They're just one tribe out ofthe actual thirteen.
Correct?
Yeah, so so to address and saythat those who say they're Jews
are not, I can under I can kindof see that, but I don't think
that's addressing the um idea ofall the nation of Israel, which

(25:03):
consists of the 12 tribes,including Levi being the 13th.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
You know what?
I think that it now as I sithere and look, because I've read
that that passage too, and as Isit here and listen to both of
y'all, I think that it like, andI'm getting the understanding of
this this particular topic thatwe're on right now.
I think that it's talking about,you know, people like like how
it says, you know, the peopledraw, they, they draw, they

(25:32):
speak about me in their mouthwith their mouth, but in their
hearts, they they you know, theythey ain't they so far from me.
And well, Paul Paul, huh?

SPEAKER_05 (25:42):
Paul Paul addressed that by by talking about uh
whether or not the thecircumcision was a physical one
or spiritual one.
He said one can be a Jewoutwardly, but one can be can be
a Jew inwardly.
Right.
And so he was talking about thecircumcision of the heart.
You know, have have your haveyour heart been pricked in such

(26:03):
a way to where you honor themost high.
And you know what I mean?
And so uh we know that everyeveryone is not gonna experience
that.

SPEAKER_02 (26:16):
Because they're not in the day that the most high
had asked them to speak in yourcircumcision, Moshe had told
them that they needed tocircumcise their hearts, right?
To go along with what you'retalking about.
But we see in the book ofDeuteronomy that he says that at

(26:37):
this particular time that thechildren of Israel, not talking
about the Gentiles, when theyare scattered in the land that
of their enemies, he said, Iwill be going against you.
And then by time he says, I'llbring you back to your land of
inheritance, he says, Then Iwill circumcise your heart.
So according to what's written,uh the circumcision of the heart

(27:01):
for Israel, or specifically forthe nation of Israel, is when
the Most High Himself does thecircumcision of the heart for
them when they are back in theirland.

SPEAKER_05 (27:11):
Right, right.
Right, but but no mancircumcises himself at all,
whether physically orspiritually.
I mean that that's I thoughtthat goes without saying.

SPEAKER_02 (27:23):
Yes, very, very true.
That's a great point.

SPEAKER_05 (27:25):
So I mean you know, circumcision is something that
happens to you.
Yeah.
It's being used in a reactivesense in in terms of receiving.
So uh I I think I think um youknow, the the core of our
pathways, I think, that thatintersect one another is who the

(27:49):
Messiah is, what the role of theMessiah is, and what role he
plays in our individual lives.
Or if not.
Um because uh that's the that'sthe core of the of the Christian
foundation.
Is our relationship to Christ,through his death, his burial,
and his resurrection.

(28:10):
As prophesied in the oldtestament.

SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Okay.
So let's um I like that pointthat you brought, because that
is the core, right?
That's the core issue.
Um so the the question would beis for that I would have for you
so the the listeners can theyprobably this is a question I
think that a lot of people wouldask, is that did Christ come

(28:34):
from your understanding, did hecome to um when he came, did he
decide that he's gonna changeany of the Creator's laws?

SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
Okay.
So all of the laws that the mosthigh has said, are they still in
effect?

SPEAKER_05 (28:56):
Oh good.

SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
So if they're if all yes, because his laws are never
gonna change.
So what is it that Christ whatdoes he set them free from?
Because I know Paul had hiswritings come out, he set you
free from the law of sin ofdeath.
But what did you what would yousay that Christ freed the
believer from?

SPEAKER_05 (29:21):
Um well, ultimately, complete separation from the
most high.
Um, I mean, sin is more than ismore than just a disease, yet
it's a full condition.
It's a state of being and astate of mind.
And so, um, yeah, I mean, Idon't know if that that was

(29:46):
plain enough for you.
No, it's uh I mean becausebecause um freedom.
From the penalty of sin withinand itself allows for uh uh
person to be able to be utilizedin a way that they were not able

(30:09):
to be utilized before.
Uh we don't we don't come intactwithin our sinful nature with uh
a rebuttal system for thatthat's pure enough.
That's why we saw sacrificebeing made in the old testament
in the book of Leviticus.
Uh we see it even as early asGenesis chapter 3, because Adam

(30:31):
and Eve were given skin.
And those skins had to come fromsomething that was a lot.
Um, and so we always saw uh theshedding of blood for the remiss
of skin.
We've always seen that.
And so when we started lookingin into the uh into the book of
Isaiah, the ninth chapter or the53rd chapter, then we start

(30:55):
seeing the prophecy uh beingfulfilled that started all the
way in Genesis chapter.

SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Oh, going back to Genesis chapter number three,
verse 15.

SPEAKER_05 (31:06):
That's about right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Yeah.
Um the idea then is to deal,make sure that humanity is not
completely separated from themost high, meaning it's to
restore.
If we go back to Genesis, Ithink when you say this
separation, it could be becausethe man was he was exiled out of

(31:28):
the presence of the most high,out of his, you know, the
garden, out of the state of thegarden, the place where he was
the most high.
Um, and so he took upon himselfto rebel against the command of
the most high.
And then you mentioned about thesacrificial system dealing with
the shedding of blood.
My question for you is is theonly way for sin to be forgiven

(31:52):
or to be taken care of or atonedfor is only through blood.

SPEAKER_05 (31:59):
Wasn't that the purpose of most of the
sacrifices?

SPEAKER_02 (32:05):
No, not at all.
There's um there's over fivedifferent types of according to
the story, there's fivedifferent um offerings that
remain um for you know justmaking sacrifices, right?
So we got the polla, which is afull burnt offering, we got the
the minka, which was the grainoffering, then we have the
salamine, which is the oil, youknow, the oil offering, the

(32:28):
peace offering.
Um we have the asham, which isthe guilt offering, and then we
have the kata, which is the sinoffering.
So those are the five differentofferings that had to be made
for um to the Most High, but notall of them was for sin, and not
all sacrifice was atoning forblood.
Some sacrifices that they madeum was just to say ham at peace

(32:51):
accused, some sacrifices it'smade just because of the
understood.

SPEAKER_05 (32:56):
Understood, understood.
However, that doesn't take awaythe fact that there was a
sacrifice that needed to be madefor sin.

SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Yeah.
So my initial question again isis that the only place that you
know?
Because there are several placesthat said that he forgives them
without any sacrifice for sin.
Go ahead, so okay.
So um do you have your Bible?
I'm pretty sure you do.

SPEAKER_05 (33:26):
Um I don't, I don't have it in front of me at the
moment.

SPEAKER_02 (33:29):
Okay, so I'll go through the book that you
mentioned earlier, which issecond chronicles, and you said
chapter number seven.
So we're gonna go ahead andwe're gonna go to chapter number
eight of second chronicles.
And is it second chronicle orfirst chronicle?

(33:51):
I think it's first chronicle.
No, I'm sorry, I'm seeingChronicles.
It's Kings.
I'm sorry.
So uh let's go to First Kingsand we'll go to chapter number
eight.
Look at my Bible right.

(34:13):
1 Kings chapter number 8.
And this is what it says, andwe're gonna be dealing with sin
more specifically, because Iagree with you that you know
they have to make some type ofoffering, right?
So sometimes he said you justneed to come with me with words,

(34:35):
but this is where I want to takeus.
I know that we'll agreetogether.
So it says in chapter numbereight, verse number 46.
This in context is talking aboutuh the children of Israel, and
it's talking the one who'smaking this prayer.
This is a prayer of King Solomonwhen he was making a dedication
to the temple.

(34:55):
And so this is a request thathe's making to the most high.
And he says, If they sin againstyou, for there is no one who
doesn't sin, and you are angrywith them, and you hand them
over to the enemy, and you carrythem off captive to the lands of
their enemies, whether far awayor nearby, then if they come to
their senses in the land wherethey have been carried away

(35:19):
captive, turn back and maketheir plea to you in the land of
those who carry them offcaptive, saying, We sin, we act
wrongly, we behave wickedly.
If in the land of their enemieswho carried them off captive,
they return to you with all oftheir heart and being, and pray

(35:42):
to you toward their own land, towhich you gave to their
ancestors, toward the city thatyou chose, and toward the house
that I built for your name, thenin heaven where you live, hear
their prayer and their plea, anduphold their cause, and forgive
your people who have sinnedagainst you, forgive their

(36:03):
transgressions, which they havecommitted against you, and give
them compassion in the sight oftheir captors, so that they will
share so they will showcompassion toward them.
For they are your people, yourinheritance, and whom you
brought out of Egypt out of theflames of the iron furnace.
And then he goes on andcontinues with his prayer, and
then the most high answers himin chapter number nine and says,

(36:26):
I've heard your prayer.
I've heard your prayer, and yes,I'll do that.
So, children of Israel, incontext, going back to
Deuteronomy, where he says, Whenyou're in the lands of your
enemies, you'll start thinking,you'll come to your senses, and
you'll start thinking.
So, what we see here is there isno uh sacrifice, um, blood

(36:46):
atonement sacrifice needed forthe children of Israel to be
forgiven, primarily because whenthey're out of their land,
they're not able to make anytype of sacrifices for any for
any type of sin.
They're not in the Most High'spresence, and so they're not
allowed to make sacrifices inonly in the place where he has
said his name.

(37:07):
So this is one of the examplesthat I can show you, but I also
have others where there is noblood sacrifice to make
atonement for the children ofIsrael for their sin.

SPEAKER_03 (37:26):
Thank you for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (37:27):
Oh, absolutely.
So going back to our questionthen about why or what's the
efficacy of the sacrifice ofChrist.
So if if man can have his sinsforgiven without any shedding of
blood, then of course why wouldthey need a man to sacrifice
himself?

SPEAKER_05 (37:48):
Well, uh again, I I go back and I reference the old
testament prophecies.
That uh they said that theMessiah was going to come.
Uh Daniel chapter seven, uh allthe way through chapter nine uh
lays out quite a bit of it.

(38:11):
Uh Isaiah complements that withuh descriptions as well as the
book of Psalms.

SPEAKER_02 (38:22):
So the the fundamental or the foundation of
your understanding is based uponprophecy.
Right.
So we there there are rules toprophecy, and so um I'll just

(38:44):
express them that are found inthe book of Deuteronomy, chapter
number 18, verse number 15.
Um he talks about him providinga prophet to the children of
Israel, um, and then whatever hetells them, right?
You gotta listen to him becausehe's gonna be telling you what I
said, and one of theprerequisites of that is that

(39:05):
this prophet is supposed tospeak in the most high's name.
The children of Israel asked thequestion how are we to know that
you have spoken this word?
And he said, if this has nothappened, then I did not speak
this that word.
And you have nothing to fear ofthat prophet.
But the condition was anyprophet that speaks in my name,

(39:27):
right?
And so my question to you is ifyou're using, I heard you
mention Isaiah, and I believeit's chapter number seven that
you mentioned, and chapternumber nine.

SPEAKER_05 (39:39):
Um I'll say Daniel.

SPEAKER_02 (39:43):
And well, I'll call Daniel too.
Um if if we were to look atthose those prophecies, if they
were to if you were to be shownthat they were already
fulfilled, um that wouldprobably give you a different
perspective, I think.

SPEAKER_05 (40:00):
Yeah.
Uh I don't I don't think so.
I don't think that would give mea a different look.

SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (40:10):
How about the idea of someone innocent dying for
you?
Right?
So does the most high authorizethe shedding of innocent blood?

SPEAKER_05 (40:24):
You said what?

SPEAKER_02 (40:25):
Does he authorize the shedding of innocent blood?

SPEAKER_05 (40:29):
Well, I mean, weren't were not the animals
innocent?
Did they did the animal sin whenit was time for the sacrifice?
For the uh for the sin sacrificeto go up?

SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
Yeah, but we're talking about a human being,
right?

SPEAKER_05 (40:42):
No, right, no, but but we can't escape the fact
that the origin of even whatwe're talking about comes from
the concept.
We see the concept beingemulated by Ibrahim, even.
We see the concept going forthas early as the book of Genesis.
We see a shadow of thathappening.

(41:03):
And then we see it consistentlyhappen all through the book of
Leviticus.
So you can't avoid the or theorigin of where it comes from.

SPEAKER_02 (41:15):
I agree.
So let's deal with Genesis then.
Let's so when he when heprovided them with the the the
coverings for their bodies andhe made it, you know from your
understanding, are you sayingthat he atoned for them at that
point?

SPEAKER_03 (41:32):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (41:33):
Okay.
So if he atoned for them, thenwhy were they still cursed?
Or why was the land still cursedand why would the woman still
have to experience her curse?

SPEAKER_05 (41:43):
Because he said that they was going through he said
they were gonna have to gothrough that.
Okay, so man that came from hismouth.

SPEAKER_03 (41:50):
So that atoned for him.

SPEAKER_05 (41:52):
I mean, so let me ask you a question.
How many things have you donethat may have been, let's just
say, inappropriate?
We'll use the wordinappropriate, right?
That were inappropriate, yeah.
And uh maybe not so becoming,right?
Of a believer.

(42:13):
Um did you not still have tosuffer consequences even though
you received some grace in thematter?

SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (42:21):
Because because because we know under the under
the old law, uh one would diefor certain of uh uh offenses.
And so um, but we're today, someof those same laws, we're able
to have a sense of grace aboutsome of that stuff.
Well, we may not have had that.

(42:41):
And so uh, you know, you have totake that into consideration.

SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
So are you suggesting that the things that
require death for a person whocommits any type of sin that's
requ that is requiring of thedeath penalty?
Are you saying that because theyare able to believe that they
kind of escape that deathpunishment that that they're is
supposed to be fulfilled?

SPEAKER_05 (43:07):
Uh I I I would say this.
That the the Bible says that thewages of sin is death.
And so um but it also refers todeath being the that there's a
second death.
And so um I don't want to beeternally separated from the
most high.

SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
I understand Yeah, you're breaking up.

SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
Yeah, can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you now.
So where would you say, brother?
What'd you say, folks?

SPEAKER_05 (43:50):
No, I was saying that that um that there's no
other way for you to be able todeal with the RC in yourself.

SPEAKER_02 (43:58):
Okay.
Well that's that's somethingthat we can talk about because
we understand that um not everysin that a person committed was
worthy of the death penalty.
Right?
So we know that the most highmakes provision for individuals
who make what they would callthey would be a sin and the

(44:20):
atonement could be made forthem.
And it's not always to atonementto an animal.
If a person was poor, then theywould bring him flour.
Or they would bring him a a adove, but flour if they were
really poor.
So they wouldn't have so youknow, you would have to unalive
anything except for bringingsome grain to have your sin

(44:41):
forgiven for a sin that'sunintentional that we find in
the book of Leviticus, chapternumber four and five.
So he's letting us know thatthere are what they would call
shigagas in Hebrew, meaning anerror that people will make a
mistake.
It's called inadvertent sin.
And the individual who waseither a leader or a priest or

(45:02):
an individual or a male orfemale, they had to deal with it
or provide an offering that wascontingent to what their status
was and depending on who theywere.
So there was different levels.
So, you know, for a leader, ofcourse, they would have to bring
a ram.
For a regular man, he had tobring a male lamb, or a female,
she would have to bring a uh,you know, a female uh lamb.

(45:25):
Um, if it was for a priest, hewould have to bring an ox, you
know, so all these differentdegrees, but we see that it's
you know the same thing, that ofcourse there's the blood that
that he required for that to be,right?
And so um, but the idea of them,even if they made an error, some
type of mistake, that was whatwas forgiven.

(45:47):
The sin that that the worldunderstands today is the sins
that they have committed, likeyou said, there's things that
people believe that they havedone, and because they confessed
that you know they believe thatthey're gonna escape the
punishment of the law that hasnot changed, but they feel that
someone else has to take theirplace so they don't have to
worry about that pump penaltywhen that's not true.

(46:11):
That's not true.
The laws provides for whoeverhas committed this are the ones
who are gonna have to be dealtwith.
I asked a question earlier aboutthe most high providing the
innocent to die for the wicked,and he says in his law that he
will never acquit the wickedwith the shedding of the

(46:31):
innocent blood of the righteous.
Never.
So even if blood was shed of aninnocent person, that blood that
was theirs can never atone foranyone wicked.
So the sins that these otherpeople are committing, you know,
like they committed murder orthey committed, you know,
kidnapping, or they did allthese other, you know, sins that

(46:53):
require death.
Most high said that he's notgoing to provide any atonement
for them.
And what we have here, he's not,I'm not going to justify them.
Exodus chapter number 23, versenumber seven.
In his law, he says, keep awayfrom fraud and do not cause the
death of the innocent andrighteous.

(47:16):
For I will not justify thewicked.
So we know that when Christ saidhe came, he said he doesn't come
for the righteous, but he comesfor the wicked.
So that's different than whatthe Creator has said about the
wicked versus the righteous.

(47:42):
No justification.

SPEAKER_05 (47:44):
Well you do know that there's a difference
between the covenant that hemade with Israel and the new
covenant that he was going tomake with all mankind, right?

SPEAKER_02 (47:56):
Well, which covenant the the covenant is with all
mankind?
Are you still speaking the onethat he made with Noah?
That said that he's making thiswith Noah and all mankind and
all the earth.
Is that the covenant?

SPEAKER_05 (48:06):
No, no.

SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
Which covenant are you talking about?

SPEAKER_05 (48:14):
Talking about the covenant where you said that uh
that and there will be a newcovenant.

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Okay.
And so with covenant, then weknow that there's always a sign
that he makes a covenant, right?
So Noah was the rainbow, withAbraham it was the covenant of
circumcision.

SPEAKER_05 (48:33):
Christ was the sign.

SPEAKER_02 (48:34):
Okay.
So, okay, and so where does thecreator say that this is the
sign?
Where does he that hespecifically said to Noah that
this is the sign, is my rainbow,this is my rainbow.
He tells Abraham, this is mysign, which will be the
circumcision.
He tells the children of Israel,the Sabbath is my sign, which

(48:56):
means so where did the creatorspeak about Christ himself being
the first time?

(51:21):
He doesn't speak to anybody tocreate his name.
Nobody's name.
He doesn't speak his name.
And that is where the problemis.
Because the most high says ifthe prophet comes and he speaks
the word in my name, and if itdoesn't come to pass, then I
didn't speak that word and Ididn't send that prophet.
So I'm looking for a covenantthat has been executed by the

(51:48):
most high.

SPEAKER_05 (51:59):
Well, you know, I expect you to look forward to
come a certain way.

SPEAKER_02 (52:04):
I mean that doesn't for me, that doesn't necessarily
mean that it's not it's notproper just because it has to
come, then what do you think itnecessarily so if you if if I
know a lot of people useJeremiah 31 31 that says that

(52:25):
that is that the covenant thatyou're under?

SPEAKER_05 (52:30):
Uh read it.

SPEAKER_02 (52:33):
Um Jeremiah 31, 31 is a passage which a lot of
people use to say that whenChrist came, he spoke these
words, and therefore theyentered into a new covenant with
the most high.
And the words are going to besaid like this.
Here the days are coming, saysYahweh, when I will make a new
covenant with the house ofIsrael and with the house of

(52:54):
Judah.
It will not be like the covenantI made with their fathers on the
day that I took them by theirhand and brought them out of the
land of Egypt, because they fortheir part violated my covenant,
even though for my part I was ahusband to them, says Yahweh.
For this is the covenant that Iwill make with the house of
Israel after those days, saysYahweh.

(53:15):
I will put my Torah within themand write it on their hearts.
I will be their God, and theywill be my people.
No longer will any of them teachhis fellow community member or
his brothers, saying, No Yahweh,for I, for all will know me, for
the least of them to thegreatest, because I will forgive

(53:35):
their wickedness and remembertheir sins no more.
So often people use this to saythat this is the covenant that
He's made with them throughChrist.
And my question then would be ifthat is the case, then of course
they would have to have theTorah written on their hearts,
and they would actually actuallyknow Yahweh.
And so if you ask the averageperson who believes that they're

(53:58):
in a covenant with the MostHigh, and you ask them to recite
the Torah, and they don't knowthe Torah, they do not know the
Torah, they do not understandthe instructions, all they
understand is the New Testament,they don't know the Torah, they
don't they don't know Him, theydo not even know Yahweh's name.
See, so Yahweh's name is theonly name that's ever going to

(54:20):
be spoken, and that's in aprophecy in Zechariah chapter
number 14, verse number nine,that there's no mention of
Christ at all whatsoever in anyprophecy in the future.
There's no future prophecy inthe book of Isaiah, chapter 2,
you know, Micah chapter number5, when it says, All the world

(54:40):
is going to come up, and all thenations are going to come up and
they're going to worship Yo HeWahhe and they're going to learn
the Torah from him.
Zechariah says there in that daythere's only going to be one
name, and that name is going tobe Yod Hewahe.
It's going to be Yahweh's name.
That's the only name that'sgoing to receive praise.
And he said, He shall be theking over the whole entire

(55:04):
earth.
And there's no mention ofanybody with him.
So that's the reason why we havethese questions.
See?
So if if Christ is the king, andif he's in a new everyone's in a
new covenant with with Yahweh orYahweh or Yahuwah, if they're in

(55:25):
a covenant with him, then theywould know his Torah, they would
keep his Sabbath days, and alsotoo, they would be going up to
Jerusalem on an annual basis togo observe the feast of what
they call Sukkot.
And the feasts are not done awaywith, so that hasn't happened.
So the question is, doeseveryone know his name?

(55:46):
No.
Is everyone still being taught?
Is Yahweh teaching them?
No, they're still being taughtby everyone.
So that covenant is not ineffect.
And a matter of fact, he saysthat I'm making a covenant with
the house of Israel and thehouse of Judah.
There is nowhere in there inthat in particular passage that
says I'm making this covenantwith the whole entire world.

(56:07):
I'm making it with those twokingdoms, right?
That were divided, which are thechildren of Israel.
And so we know that the childrenof Israel and the two children
of Judah, those two six that arein Ezekiel, have not been put
together.
Like he they prophesied to putthem together and bring them

(56:28):
back to their own land.
See, so that covenant hasn'ttaken place yet.
And we know that if it's aprophecy, the rules for prophecy
is Yahweh said that he told thechildren of Israel, He said,
You're gonna ask me, how do weknow that you've spoken his
word?

(56:48):
He says, You will know that Ispoke this word only if it comes
to pass.
So if this hasn't happened yet,we cannot ascribe this to
anybody.
We cannot ascribe this toChrist, we can't ascribe this to
nobody.
Most high has never asked thechildren of Israel to believe
anything.

(57:09):
He actually wants us to see itwith our own eyes.
Matter of fact, the book ofDeuteronomy tells us, hey, you
guys saw what I did to Pharaoh,you saw what I did to his army,
you saw what I did to the Imri.
You saw what I did to the KingBashan, you saw what I did to
the King of Ob.
You saw what I did to this tothese people, right?

(57:31):
So you've already seen it.
You saw my fire, you heard thethunder and the lightning, you
heard me speaking.
You didn't see any shape of anykind, but you have an experience
with me.
So the nations themselves thatare under the idea of
Christianity or being saved aregoing to come to the Most High

(57:51):
in the last days, as we see inJeremiah, same book.
Chapter number 16, and he'sgonna tell us something that's
going to blow your mind.
Okay.
Jeremiah chapter number 16,verse number 19 says that he

(58:14):
says 16, 19, our ancestors, thisis the nations, it says, Yahweh,
my strength, my fortress, my inmy time of trouble, the nations
will come to you from the endsof the earth, saying, Our
ancestors inherited nothing butlies, futile idols, completely

(58:36):
useless.
The question is, is can a mancan a person, a human, make
himself gods?
In fact, they're no gods at all.
Verse number 21, concludingverse.
Therefore, I will make them knowonce and for all, I will make
them know my power and my might,and then they will know that my

(58:56):
name is Yahweh.
Yod Hei Wide.
So the nations don't know him,they don't know his name.
And I'm and so since they'vebeen given Christianity and
they've been given in the NewTestament, the New Testament
doesn't have Yahweh's namementioned not one time.
The prop the disciples nevermention his name, Paul never

(59:20):
mentioned his name, Titus,Peter, nobody.
Christ Himself has not evenmentioned the most high name.
So why is it that the nationsare coming to him in the final
days to say that we've inheritednothing but lies?
And now he says, Then you'regonna finally know once and for
all what my name is.

(59:41):
It's because Yahweh's name hasnot been proclaimed by which you
would say the people who believethat they're in a covenant with
the most high.
Because if they were in acovenant with him, then things
would be better.
The children of Israel andcovenant, they would not be
scattered, they would not, youknow, be imprisoned, they would
not be.
Uh, you know, number one inheart disease, they wouldn't be

(01:00:02):
sick, they would be in their ownland, they would be in the
inheritance of their fathers,and they would grow and they
would flourish and they wouldmultiply.
But we don't see that.
So again, the question would beis what is the efficacy and what
is the purpose of a Messiah thathas not actually saved these
people from literally anythingbecause they still sin, and we

(01:00:26):
know the wages of sin, as yousaid, is death.
So the evidence of someone dyingis proof that they still have
sin.
Now, I don't stand here todayand tell you that I don't have
any sin.
I know that I do, I makemistakes.
My mistakes are not delivered.
My mistakes are not delivered,and there's several different
layers of what you would callhow to sin.

(01:00:48):
So being one of the children ofIsrael, just by simply being out
of your land and beingsomewhere, you know, that you
don't supposed to be, accordingto what he's written about us,
says that you're alreadyunclean.
And that right there means thatyou have sinned.
Like a woman who just had achild, she has to bring a sin
offering just because she had ababy or she's on her menstrual

(01:01:09):
cycle.
So the same thing.
So purity is number is huge withthe most high.
Okay.
So again, if he is the one whodied for the children of Israel,
right?
Because he said, I've I didn'tcome only for the lost sheep of
Israel, then why is the nationof Israel at the time that he
came, going back to the prophet,the prophecy that they like to

(01:01:32):
ascribe to him in Jeremiah 23,that says that the branch in
which and let me just quote it.
23 in Jeremiah and 5 says this.

(01:01:53):
He will do what is just andright in the land, and in his
days, Yehuda will be saved.
This is chapter number 23 of thebook of Jeremiah, verse number
five.
In his days, Judah will besaved, and Israel will live in
safety, and the name given tohim will be Yahweh the Canaan,
meaning Yahweh is ourrighteousness.

(01:02:15):
So, according to this prophecy,it says that this individual,
this branch that's coming out ofDavid, which Christ claims to
be, that he will reign as kingand will succeed, and he's going
to do what is just and rightwhen he's a king in the land of
Israel, and in his days, Judahwill be saved, and Israel will

(01:02:37):
live in safety.
And we know on historicalinformation that when Christ was
here, he never reigned, and henever sat upon the throne of
David, and he never ruled in theland of Israel, and in his day,
Judah was never saved, they wereunder Roman occupation, and the
nation of Israel, Israel itself,was never living in safety

(01:03:01):
because they were scattered allover the uh into these different
nations.
So you cannot apply thatprophecy to him there because
that wasn't fulfilled.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:09):
I I I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:11):
Right.
So if that's not fulfilled, wecan't ascribe that prophecy to
him.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:14):
See?
Well, I mean that's but youcan't ascribe it to him if it
hasn't happened yet.
If that part hasn't happenedyet.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:20):
Yeah, it hasn't happened to it.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:21):
Because that's not to happen to the second comer.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:24):
Right.
So what the the the purpose is,is going by the rules of
prophecy, the most high says,they said, How do you know that
we spoke this word?
And he said, Only if it wouldcome to pass.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:35):
So if we have exactly, but just because it
hasn't come to pass in yourtime, doesn't mean I mean, if
that's the case, then you can'tbelieve anything that happened
before now because you weren'tthere to see it to come to pass.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:47):
Exactly.
So what we do have, this I'mglad you said that, because
that's 100% accurate.
What we do have is this he says,in the days that I come to you
in Deuteronomy 30, when you theblessing and the curses come
upon you in the lands of yourenemies, you're gonna start
thinking about what's happenedto you, just like what King
Shalomo said in his prayer,whether they take them captive

(01:04:08):
to a land that's far away,they're gonna come to their
senses and they're gonna saythat we were wicked, we behaved
wickedly, and we're asking foryour forgiveness, and we're
turning back to the most high,and we're being blessed.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:19):
That's right.
But that's right.
He's talking to the children ofIsrael, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:22):
Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:23):
Okay, and that's what he's talking about, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:26):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:27):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:29):
So that's what we're so that's who so that's who
that's that's who that appliesto, though.
Yes, so that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:35):
So how does the children of Israel fit into the
narrative of or trying to applythe I mean, I don't I don't
know, I don't know that youwould, depending on what uh what
angle you're coming from.
I mean, because if you don'tbelieve there is a sacrifice
necessary, then you won'tbelieve a sacrifice was made.
And so that's you know, that'skind of common, I I guess the

(01:04:57):
common th uh thread thought, Iwould think.
Um if if you don't if you don'tsee that there's a necessity for
forgiveness, you won't ask forit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:07):
No, but they did ask for it, right?
I mean I mean to cut you off.
They did ask, he said whenthey're in the lands of their
enemies, they are going to askyou to forgive them.
Right.
And there's no requirement forsacrifice.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:18):
So again, I I said that to say, I said what I said
to say is is that that's talkingabout the children of Israel.
Um, the average Christianwouldn't claim to be uh one of
the children of Israel.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:33):
So, what are the lies that they've inherited?
What do you mean?
So in Jeremiah, it says thenations are gonna come to you in
those days, and they're gonnasay, Our ancestors inherited
nothing but lies and feudalidols, and they're gonna call
upon Yahweh's name.
He said, Then I'm gonna finallylet them know once and for all
that my name is Yo He Wai.

(01:05:54):
Right?
So obviously they don't know himbecause he said they're gonna
know my power, my strength, mymight, and then they're finally
going to know my name.
Right, just like Pharaoh didn'tknow his name.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:09):
The book, the book of John, uh the 17th chapter.
Yes, Jesus, Jesus says to hisfather, he says, Um, Father,
restore unto me the glory that Ishared with you from the
beginning.
Yes, and um, and he talkedabout, I think, in the second,
maybe the second or third verse,he talks about how uh it is the

(01:06:30):
will of the father that theyknow him, yes, the one true God,
yes, and Jesus whom he sent.
Yes, and so um, and so I Ireference that to say that we
know the father through the son.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:47):
Okay, so that's a good point because that was his
prayer, and he said four times,four times in that prayer,
because that was a prayer he'smaking, in verse number six of
17, he says, I made your nameknown to the people that you
gave me.
Okay, so if he made his nameknown to them, which what is his

(01:07:08):
name?
What's the name of his the Godthat he's talking about, or his
father?
What's his father's name?

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:16):
Uh well he always referred to him as his father.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:20):
Yeah, so did he ever tell them, his disciples, his
name?

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:25):
Well, I think I think that you're taking a
figurative, a figurativestatement and uh and trying to
make it a literal one.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:36):
No, it's not it's not it's not figurative.
If you think about it, he It is.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:40):
I mean, because listen, hold on, I'm gonna I'm
gonna tell you why I say so.
I'll give you an example.
Um if I send my son to myhometown, which is Chicago, and
I tell him to go make my nameknown, that means to go and
represent my name.
It doesn't necessarily mean gotell people my name.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:03):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:04):
And so um I think that that is a a figurative
statement when he when it'ssaying, make my name known, I
made your name known.
Okay he made it clear that hewas speaking the words that his
father spoke, and he was doingwhat he saw his father do.

(01:08:25):
And so uh he was making his, hewas representing his father.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:29):
Okay, so again, when we look at the most high
revealing his name, right?
So he told the children ofIsrael that Moses says, Well,
the children of Israel are goingto ask me what is his name, what
should I tell?
Remember?
And he said, Tell them, Aye,Asherah, Ayeh, meaning I am that

(01:08:51):
I am, and that is a verb tense,that's not his name.
And then he follows up and said,This is my name.
And he proclaims his name toMoshe to speak to the children
of Israel, which is Yod He Wahe,and he said, This was going to
be my an eternal name.
This is the name that you'llalways know me by, right?
So when you go and you play itforward, and of course, in

(01:09:12):
chapter number 60, he says, Yourfathers, Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob, did not know me by thisname.
They don't know, they've neverknown me by this name.
This is the name that's I wantto reveal to you.
So he revealed his name to them,and it's an eternal name.
So by time, it's a new test.

(01:11:50):
And on that day, Yahweh will bethe only one, and his name will
be the only name.
So, what other name does thechildren of Israel supposed to
know?
There's no mention of Yeshua,Yeshua, Jehosha, none of that.

(01:12:15):
Only Yah's name.
That's the only name.
And that's the name in Jeremiahchapter number 25.
Is the Most High said, Yourancestors did everything they
could to cause you to forget myname.
So we don't see a proclamationor proclaiming of Yahweh's name
nowhere in the New Testamentliterature that's given to the

(01:12:38):
churches.
We don't see his name evermentioned by the disciples, we
don't see his name ever beingmentioned by the apostles, we
don't see his name mentioned bynobody.
Christ himself has nevermentioned his name, not one
single time.
So if he is to give praise andhonor, like we have in the book
of Psalms, the only name that'sever receiving praise is Yod He

(01:13:04):
Waihe.
Matter of fact, Pharaoh said,Most high told Pharaoh, the only
reason why I'm allowing you tostay alive and haven't killed
you, is because I want you toproclaim my name.

SPEAKER_05 (01:13:22):
So so question.
So Genesis chapter 19, well,chapter 18.
Who is Yahweh that is standingin front of Ebola He?
Who is uh in Genesis chapter 19?
Who is Yahweh that's standing onearth, that's raining down fire

(01:13:43):
from Yahweh in heaven?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:45):
That's the representative which you would
call the Moloch of Yahweh.
He's a representative of themost high.
Because the most high says Yeah,I know you're laughing.

SPEAKER_05 (01:13:54):
So that'll so that'll so wait a minute.
So he can come to bring downfire.
Well, he can't come to uh donothing else.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:10):
No, that's that's not what I'm suggesting at all.
What I'm suggesting is um whenyou look at even the one who was
in the fire, right?
In the bush in the fire, and itwas speaking out of the fire, or
the one who was speaking to umAbraham out when he was about to
kill the boy.
Um the most high used his Molochto speak to him, right?

(01:14:32):
And you see that the most madeit clear to Moses, right?
So one of the things that weunderstand in the Torah is that
the most high has said that noman has ever seen my face in
lit.
Right?
So he's not changing.
Matter of fact, he said when Iwas speaking on the from the
mountain, we they were giveninstructions that you didn't see

(01:14:53):
any shape.

SPEAKER_05 (01:14:54):
No man has ever but they but but they saw what the
people saw his backside,described this described his
backside and said that thepeople saw it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:05):
No, no, what it was is most high has said that you
have never seen and lived.
There's no man that could eversee me and live.
This is what he said.

SPEAKER_05 (01:15:15):
Yeah, no, but no one, no one would be able to see
him in his pure no one, oneyeah, but they could see a they
definitely could see arepresentative.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:25):
Well, they would see a Moloch of Yahweh, right?
So it's a Moloch, a messenger ofthe Most High that He would send
to to speak as hisrepresentative, his messenger.
He will never, no one can eversee the most high.
Now, there's times where you seea vision where you know Isaiah,
he had a vision, he said, I Isaw the king.

SPEAKER_05 (01:15:45):
Well, well, I mean, and even even Daniel said that
he saw the ancient of days,yeah, sitting on the throne
sitting on the throne.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:53):
So yeah, yeah, in a vision, yeah.
So he he allows them to be ableto have some type of interaction
with him on that level whenthey're in a vision, but not
physically, right?
So physical representation.
So he tells the children ofIsrael and he warns them in the
book of Deuteronomy that when Icame and showed the most high
showed himself on the mountainin the fire, he said, You saw no

(01:16:16):
shape, all you heard was avoice.
So you're not supposed to makeany representation of anything,
a man, a woman, nothing.
Right?
So the most high is not a humanbeing, and and he doesn't get
tired, and he's never he willnever show himself as a man, he
will never go to sleep, he willnever get hungry, he will never

(01:16:38):
call he will never be powerless,he will never come from his
throne, he's a king, so he's notgoing to do that.
He has messengers that he sendson his behalf to execute his
judgment.
So he sits upon the circle ofthe whole earth, so he's not you
know, when it talks about himgoing and go out to battle,
right?
And so, and then Moses says,Rise up, Yahweh, and go defeat

(01:17:00):
your enemies.
He's not literally telling himto go rise up.
Mosai is not leaving hisposition.
You see that in Ezekiel, he'ssitting upon the throne, right?
So okay, so the bottom line isthis going back to the initial
part in the prophecy ofZechariah 14, there is no

(01:17:21):
mention of anyone.
Isaiah chapter number two.
There in a future prophecy ofthe whole world learning Torah,
there is no mention of anyoneelse but Yahweh.
There's no one, there is no Hementioned, there is no other
one, there is no one.
I am alone, there is no Savior,even while you're in your exile,

(01:17:41):
there will be no Savior.
There's nobody's gonna save youout of my hand.
That's what it is.
So I get why people want to, youknow, like you said, people
don't want to, you know,fiercely die.
They don't want the seconddeath, right?
They know they're gonna get thefirst one, but then always kind

(01:18:04):
of direct people back to FirstCorinthians chapter number 15
and ask the question has manbeen able to, what man since the
resurrection of Christ, whatperson hasn't died?
And the answer to that isnobody, everyone has died.

(01:18:24):
My mother just died five yearsago.
So people are still dying,they've been dying for thousands
of years.
So what so what did he save themfrom?
If the sting of death is if theif the sting of sin is death,
right?
That song of oh death where'syour sting, oh grave where's

(01:18:45):
your victory, has not been sung.
Because people are still dyingand people are still being put
into the grave.
Therefore, they're still feelingthe sting of death.
So did he defeat the devil?
Did he did he defeat the powerof death?
Maybe for himself, but not forothers.
That was that's my contention.

(01:19:08):
Because it clearly says in theCorinthians that that song has
not been sung yet.
Oh death, where's your sing?
Oh grave, where's your victory?
It says when he comes back, thenthat's when he's people are
gonna be able to sing that song.
So no one has actually reallytruly achieved what you would
say salvation.

SPEAKER_05 (01:19:27):
I mean, I think I think that that that may very
well be subjective though.
Um because it depends on on whatyou think salvation is.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:36):
Well, what do you think it is?

SPEAKER_05 (01:19:39):
Uh I think it is as the scripture says.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:41):
And let's define it.

SPEAKER_05 (01:19:43):
Let's what is what is um it is the the freedom of
of of the second death.
Every everything as human isgonna experience the first
death.
It's been appointed to us.
So that's something that we'regonna taste uh regardless.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (01:20:02):
So okay, so in the But it's the second, it's the
second death that I'm I'mconcerned about.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:09):
Okay.
So when I get the second deathcome, that's that's what I'm
gonna ask.

SPEAKER_05 (01:20:14):
Well, for those for those who who go to to hell,
Hades, however you want to callit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Then uh those will experiencethat is that is the second
death.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:29):
Okay.
So what I'm saying is in in myunderstanding to give you some
background on why I say what issalvation, my understanding of
salvation is found in the bookof Exodus for the children of
Israel in chapter number 14.
Moses tells the children ofIsrael, today you're going to
see the salvation of Yahweh.
According to the Most High'sdefinition of salvation, first

(01:20:50):
mention of salvation, the actualword of salvation, Yeshua, is
mentioned by them beingdelivered to be set free from
their enemy, and not to bedestroyed, their enemy to be
destroyed.

SPEAKER_05 (01:21:05):
Yes, but the great the the greatest enemy that
mankind has is sin.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:10):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:21:11):
It is the thing that keeps us from the most high.
It is sin.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:14):
Well, uh, okay, so let's deal with that.
So I the gr I thought you weregonna say the greatest enemy is
death.
Because that's what Corinthianssays.
Corinthians says the greatestenemy, the last enemy to be
dealt with is death.

SPEAKER_05 (01:21:28):
Yes, but death would not be an option unless it was
worse, we're foreseeing at all.
Think about this, uh that thatAdam and Eve, the reason why
they had to be kicked out ofthat garden, they had a they had
a had access to be able to eatthe tree of the tree of life,
which actually added life tothem, then they would have been

(01:21:51):
stuck in their state of sin.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
I agree 100%, absolutely.
Right.
So, but the question is, wouldhe did they die spiritly or
would they or the process of thephysical death?
Yeah, I think it's a separation,right?

SPEAKER_05 (01:22:10):
I think I think uh I think that there's a difference
between the two.
Both happened, just not at thesame time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:16):
Okay, so all right, so my understanding was he said
that you know the tree that theyate of is the the eightha or the
eighth seam of the tree ofknowledge of Tove and Ra, which
is good and evil.
And then once they took and theyate of that, which the tree of
course is a council, right?
They didn't have any knowledgeof good or evil.

(01:22:37):
That was a tree of knowledge,right?
And so they said the day thatyou eat this is the day you're
gonna die, right?
And what he's talking about issomething they'd have no clue
about, which is the process oftheir death was gonna come to
them, not they didn't becausethey didn't die immediately.
So we would take it and say, Oh,well, they spiritually died.
Well, you can't have a body anda spirit at the same time and

(01:23:00):
not experience the same thing.
So what it was is you know, thebody can't um can't, you know,
fly around without having avessel to be into, right?
So he gives them the bodies, heplaces his spirit inside of
them, their body begins thedeath, their souls are eternal.
Okay, and I got a scripture forthat that says that the most

(01:23:22):
high says that the children ofIsrael, they're eternal, they're
an eternal people, they they'renever gonna die.
So for us, looking for eternallife is not we've been told that
we spiritually die, but the factof the matter is is that
according to what the most highsaid, if you do what I tell you,
you get to live, and if youdon't do what I'm telling you,
you're going to die.
So he you're right, he istalking about a death, right?

(01:23:47):
Is that hey, you don't do whatI'm saying, I'm gonna cut you
off.
You won't exist anymore.
But his death is you will neverbe able to live again.
You'll never be able to liveagain.
I'm gonna cut you off from yourpeople.
You will not exist.
I'm gonna blot your name out ofthe book of life.
See, so we're an eternal peopleup to the point if we go against

(01:24:09):
him, then he'll blot our nameout of the book of life.
See, there is a book of life.
So that has nothing to do withthe flesh.
So you're right, there is asecond death.
Okay, but that second death isthe finality of you.
That means it's over for you,you don't get to live anymore.

(01:24:32):
So the idea of salvation isbeing delivered, like in every
time he has sent a savior, theywere actually delivered.
So if Christ delivered them,then tell me what did he deliver
them from that is actualtangible that we can actually
physically see.

SPEAKER_05 (01:24:51):
Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be tangible in
order to be profitable.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:55):
All the other salvations were tangible.
That's the first example ofsalvation.
Again, it's where's he?

SPEAKER_05 (01:25:02):
Man, nothing nothing you'll experience on the other
side of this will be tangible.
Well, who knows?
And so well, well, we can we canbe certain of that.
How?
We can be certain.
We can we can be certain of thatbecause because the object of
this life is not what istangible.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:21):
Really?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:25:24):
So tangibility, tangibility it it relates to
materialism, and so uh that'sit, it's an adamant object that
you can uh have some senseexperience that gives you a
sense of comfort about what youthink is supposed to happen.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:42):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:25:44):
So what's the purpose of us being because we
live we live in a spirit, welive in a spiritual world that's
full of flesh.
I mean, but but we don't wedon't uh a hundred percent
operate out of our flesh all ofthe time.
So I said that to say that um Isaid that to say that we tend to

(01:26:12):
to try to confuse some of thesecular concepts from uh from
those that are esoteric orotherwise looked at as
spiritual.
And we try to intertwine themvery very rapidly and easily
because we think it's supposedto look logical.
And it's it it's not supposed tolook logical.

(01:26:32):
That's why the most high saidthat he was gonna use in several
places that he was going to usethe foolishness of this world to
confound the lives.
Because he was not gonna usethings in the way that we
thought that he would use them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:51):
So all the other ways that he dealt with with
humankind in terms of because hedoes work in amazement and he
does wonders, so you're very uhaccurate about saying that he
would he does things that youknow it was unimaginable we
would never think about.
But the thing is is that hepromises the children of Israel
to be established back intotheir land and them and their

(01:27:12):
children and also I don't thinkanybody argues that.

SPEAKER_05 (01:27:16):
I think I think but but you gotta realize that you
know, just as though in this dayand time we have people uh who
identify and those who don't.
You know, that's a rich subjectthese days, right?
On how people identify.
Uh I identify with Christ.
And so because I identify withChrist, uh what Christ said is

(01:27:39):
applicable to me.
Um and so I don't negate whatcame before it because I uh I
understand that what Iexperienced in terms of the path
that the Lord has laid me on isan extension of what it is that
you believe.

(01:28:00):
And but those things uh werealways antithetical, which is
why the scribes, the Pharisees,and the Sadducees were always
seeming to be opposite of Jesusbecause their insights were
different.
Uh they were following a set oftraditions that came from people
before them, and it hadn'treally been profitable to the

(01:28:21):
people.
But everything that Jesus,everything that Jesus taught was
not, they you notice they neversaid that he was wrong about
anything that he said in termsof his responses to the
application of the law.
They never told him that he waswrong about anything that he
ever said.

(01:28:41):
You you never see that happen inscripture.
But what you do see, but whatyou do see is them always being
at odds and them always makingthe reference that he wasn't
following their traditions.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:54):
I would agree to say that the method in which at that
time when he was talking tothem, I mean, there's different
thoughts about how he was thereto re-establish that, of course,
they were basing the law basedon traditions versus what the
actual law says, right?
So there's a law that he is thathe cited that says if a man

(01:29:14):
looks at a woman he commitsadultery.
Right?
That is contradictive to whatbecause he said, You've heard
that it's been said, but I sayunto you, well, what was he
saying?

SPEAKER_05 (01:29:26):
Well, there's a there's a distinction being made
though, and because he's addinghe's actually adding a weight to
the law that goes beyond thephysical, and and um he's
challenging the spirit of thelaw by challenging the spirit
with the law and not the flesh.
Yeah, but maybe but because tosay to say that that's that's

(01:29:48):
opposite or it's antithetical ofthe meaning of it, he's trying
to get us to comprehend thatthat the Lord is concerned with
our frame of thought, not justour behavior.

unknown (01:29:59):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:00):
I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 (01:30:07):
There's a trying to someone who has to take a
leader.
Following what he can do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:29):
Is it for all mankind, or is that just for the
ones who have that properproblem period?

SPEAKER_05 (01:30:39):
We have three dynamics of all of us and deal
with lust.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:07):
I was trying to forget at the fact that there's
men who have to paint bystanding with the creator
without righteousness.

SPEAKER_05 (01:31:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:34):
Abraham was righteous before he went into
the before he went into thegrave or before he was
preaching.

SPEAKER_05 (01:31:56):
Oh look forward to his coming.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:57):
I'm just Noah.
Noah was he was he was righteousand he was saying possible for
man without the perfect and tobe righteous.
Examples.

SPEAKER_05 (01:32:16):
We got Cope was examples of that pre the prayer
and the resurrection of JesusChrist.
So with man were they acceptedby the Christian fulfillment of

(01:32:40):
the promise.
They believe it's a promise.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:44):
So it was caused to believe, right?
It's not that he himself, he wasactually caused.
The verb tends to change there'sthe most high caused him to
believe.
He has the question, well, howdo I know that you're going to
be able to do this?
Right?
You're going to give him myland, that you're saying, you're
going to give me the sinus.
How am I to know that the mosthigh gave him, you know, the
faith that he needed in order totrust him to what he was

(01:33:07):
walking?
So what we understand though, mypoint is that righteousness is
found in man outside ofbelieving.

SPEAKER_05 (01:33:16):
I don't know about outside.
The burial in the resurrection.

SPEAKER_02 (01:33:34):
And what way that means the thing has in there.

(01:34:08):
So that means it's not probablysomething about it.
So it's it isn't just so what mypoint is that the men that I'm
mentioning even like Caleb.
Um in also to call finians.

(01:34:31):
He was covenant for the mosthigh of eternal because of his
acts of righteousness.
So men that are able to do thesethings prior to Christ were in a
good standing.
Um Shalom at one point was in agood standing.
There are other kings whoHezekiah was in good standing.

(01:34:54):
So we have some people who wereable to achieve righteousness.

SPEAKER_05 (01:34:59):
Righteous incarnate Christ.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35:03):
Right.
So now that Christ has come,then it seems like all there's a
blockage to righteousnessoutside of him.
You can't achieve anyrighteousness on your own, but
other men have done it in thepast.
Now, if you trust in him that hedied for your wickedness, then
you then can become righteous.

(01:35:27):
The most high says that he'snever allied with anybody that
would kill the righteous.

(01:35:48):
In chapter number 17, versenumber 15.
Again, he who justifies thewicked, and who condemns the
righteous, both are alike anabomination to Yahweh.
So if Yahweh, so according towhat is written in the New
Testament, Most High isresponsible for condemning

(01:36:12):
righteousness and justifying thewicked through the death of the
innocent.
Which he says he hates thesetting of innocent bloods.
I'm trying to reconcile whywould the most high innocent
blood?
Why is the most high said, I'mnot going to justify the wicked.
Exodus chapter number 23, versenumber seven.
There in Proverbs, why thewisest king that ever lived, he

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who justifies the wicked andconvince the righteous are both
an abomination to the most high.
So that suggests that the mosthigh would commit an
abomination, providing asacrifice to innocent man.
Having him take the place of amurderer, against the Torah,
that says anyone who sheds theblood of man, his blood is

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supposed to be shed.
Why would the most high do asacrifice of a human being?
He can clearly condemn thechildren of Israel for
sacrificing his husband of God.