August 12, 2025 • 40 mins
Join host Me'sha Bryan as she delves into the creative journey of acclaimed writer and lyricist Lee Hall. Known for his work on "Billy Elliot," Lee shares insights into his multifaceted career spanning film, theatre, and radio. Discover the stories behind his latest projects, including a new screenplay and a unique adaptation of Bertolt Brecht's "Mother Courage and Her Children."
Key Highlights:
Lee Hall's reflections on the success of "Billy Elliot" and its impact. The creative process behind adapting classic works for modern audiences. Lee's thoughts on collaboration and the importance of cultural roots in storytelling. An exclusive look into Lee's upcoming film project about pianist Glenn Gould.
Don't miss this engaging conversation with one of the most influential voices in contemporary theatre and film. Subscribe now to stay updated on future episodes!
00:00 Introduction to Lee Hall and His Work
02:59 Collaboration and Cultural Exchange in Theatre
06:11 The Importance of Local Identity in Storytelling
09:08 The Writing Process: Inspiration and Craft
11:56 The Role of Collaboration in Theatre
15:02 Researching and Writing for Film
17:58 The Differences Between Theatre and Film
20:59 Family Background and Early Influences
24:10 The Joy of Collaborative Creation
26:56 Exploring Neurodiversity Through Storytelling
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Welcome to Stage and Screen with me, Me'sha Bryan.
Today I'll be speaking with writer and lyricist Lee Hall, who is perhaps best known forwriting the screenplay for Billy Elliot, as well as penning the book and lyrics for its
subsequent adaptation into a musical.
The story has gone on to win multiple awards, ranging from the BAFTA for OutstandingBritish Film, to several Tony, Olivier and Drama Desk awards, including Best Musical,
(00:40):
Outstanding Book of a Musical,
and best book of a musical.
Lee's multifaceted work spans genres, media and performance outlets, from the silverscreen to radio to international theatre.
He's currently researching the screenplay for an upcoming film and he recently adaptedBertolt Brecht's Mother Courage and Her Children, which opened at Horden Methodist Church
(01:02):
a few days ago.
I am thrilled and honoured that Lee has taken time out of his busy schedule to speak withme today and Lee, welcome to the show.
Oh, I'm very, very pleased to be here.
Thank you.
How is everything going?
Because you're busy with the play and with your research and just with life.
So how are you juggling all of that?
Well, it's been quite a busy year so far because um most of the things I did a long timeago and they've just come into production.
(01:34):
So I did an opera at the Royal Opera House, which was kind of mad and fun.
And then this uh production that is a collaboration with a theatre that I worked with inSouth Africa.
And the people from there are working in the next town along from Easington, which iswhere Billy Elliot's set and we've been doing uh a version of Mother Courage.
(02:05):
um And it's half the South African troop and half people from the Northeast.
uh And it was fantastic.
um Because the South Africans have...
uh
A lot of the music is South African music and they play uh marimbas and they brought themarimbas with them and have taught the Geordies how to play.
(02:28):
So there's this marimba orchestra uh and it's absolutely fantastic.
So it's been really exciting because it's like these two bits of the world coming togetherum to make something kind of unique.
um But it's kind of because it's where Billy Elliot was set.
It's like a big journey because it's 25 years since the film came out.
(02:52):
And it's really nice to be working up in the Northeast again.
I bet it is.
And the thing is, it's because you're so international, like, you know, the Geordies havenow been able to learn how to play marimba.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It's an amazing ah thing that you can bring people together from all sorts of cultures tomake something new.
(03:18):
It's such a privilege.
Absolutely.
Did you have all of the kind of the South African music in your head the whole time?
Like when you were adapting it were you thinking I'm gonna get the people that I know youknow to come over from South Africa and kind of put this together and you heard it or did
it kind of develop and grow as you were going along?
I had been working with the company about 10 years ago on a different Brecht play that wewere going to do in Cape Town.
(03:46):
um The company is called the Isango and uh they are an all-black company um largely fromum the townships.
Calicia, which is just outside of Cape Town.
But unfortunately, uh lots of things happened with the funding for that production and wecouldn't actually make it.
(04:10):
So I've been wanting to do something with them.
And this guy, Mark Dawn Formay who was one of the co-founders, uh came over to Durhambecause they wanted him to do something for...
They were going to do the City of Culture in Durham, but that...
that didn't happen either.
But they liked um his proposal so much that he started up this theatre company on the samebasis as the theatre company in South Africa, um where they train...
(04:39):
um
people as well as form the company.
it's a sort of way of training new actors, but they form a company and do new work.
So it made a lot of sense to bring some members of the company from South Africa becausethey'd done this process before and it's a wonderful collaboration.
(05:01):
It really is.
And what's lovely as well is that there's so many people who don't have access to kind oftraining and kind of getting into theatre and being able to be around and become
professional as well and do it properly where people are paying to come and see you.
So just to have that opportunity to be around people and work with people like you, likethat's insane.
(05:21):
They get to work with Lee Hall, that's mental.
And I guess for some people it might be their first job as well.
It's everybody's first, apart from the South Africans who have done this for many years inSouth Africa, but all the British people are, it's their first job.
So it's really exciting.
from you and from that area as well.
(05:42):
all just from Durham and largely from this few towns which are all basically the BillyElliot towns.
it's, yeah, it's really exciting because I think it's become harder and harder for youngpeople to get training because it's so expensive.
(06:06):
Yeah.
If you can't travel away from...
from say the Northeast, it's really, really problematic because it used to be a lot easierin my day.
so anything I can do to make that easier for um the next generation of performers andartists, uh well, again, it's a real privilege to be able to do a little bit to help.
(06:35):
What I like about you and just your work is that you're so proud of being from the NorthEast, you know, and you're all there's always like little hints of, oh my heritage and
where I came from and all of that stuff.
Because I know that you studied at Cambridge, didn't you?
Yeah.
And then but there's always it's not like I'm from the North East and I went to Cambridgeand then I forget about everything else.
(06:56):
It's like, no, actually, roots and society and giving back to where you came from is quiteimportant to you, isn't it?
Oh, yeah, very much.
Well, I mean, I suppose like a lot of people, I came to theatre and this whole world uhwithout knowing anybody in it and not really expecting to um ever be allowed into that
(07:25):
thing.
um But always...
When I first started the camp, well, what have I got to give?
know, these people know much more about it than me.
And then I realized, well, actually, wherever you're from, you bring so much.
culture with you.
Culture is not something that is just posh and you learn it.
(07:46):
It's actually, it's the life, the community that you've lived in and been brought up inand realizing that there were so many stories and so many ways of telling stories and
music and the poetry of everyday life and
you know, the poetry of the Northeast, the dialect and things that was so rich andactually that's why I could give to other people by allowing, you know, showing that off.
(08:17):
Things that kind of...
I don't think people look down on different cultures, but they don't have access to themunless you make something which celebrates where you're from.
so um I clocked quite early on that instead of trying to write sort of the posh RoyalCourt play or whatever that I thought I needed to do is actually I should just, you know,
(08:46):
be myself and tell the stories of me and my friends and the...
neighbors and my family and that's how Billy Elliot happened and a lot of other things andthen that's led to doing things which aren't about my culture at all but because I learned
a bit of craft and storytelling in doing that.
(09:08):
Yeah, and it's wonderful that you're showing that the regions outside of the South havesomething to give and stories to tell and quality as well.
That's the other thing, isn't it?
Because I'm a very proud Midlander from Wolverhampton.
I'm like, hey, man, we need more stuff happening in the Midlands.
uh We need a Lee Hall in the Midlands.
No, quite correct.
(09:29):
Well, you know, think one of the things, well, it's probably about everywhere, but I'veonly, I was brought up in England, but you know, where you're from, the local identity is
so, it's so rich and so clear.
And so, you know, and the way you speak, it's so fantastic to hear you, you know, um andwe need, you know, and that's what makes stories.
(09:54):
The great thing about theatre is,
The more specific and local you make it, the more universal it is.
And that's why I think things like Billy Elliot, you know, there was a uh production inKorea going on at the minute and another one in Japan.
um it's the second or third time they've done it in Japan, Korea.
(10:16):
But if I thought 30 years ago when I sat down to write it that anybody would do it outsideof Newcastle.
you
I would have just laughed.
So that's the marvelous thing about theatre and especially musical theatre as well becauseum it has this ability to travel and speak to people.
(10:43):
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Now back to the show.
The thing is about you, I'm like one of your fans, I'm like, I'm gushing over here.
(11:07):
I re-watched Billy Elliot the other day and yesterday I had another listen to SpoonfaceSteinberg.
Oh wow.
As well.
I did.
I did.
I managed to find out for digging and digging for like ages and just I was going to askyou about how your writing has developed over the years but just from the beginning you
were just amazing, right?
You're just one of the- Oh yeah.
(11:30):
Naturally talented because I was watching I was thinking oh my god the layers in thisbecause I remember when you read some of my stuff you were like, okay We got the layers
and the depth within these characters But it's like you automatically had that gift justwith you anyway, because you said you didn't know anybody who was in the industry Maybe
you read a lot of books and and probably placed yourself within the the environments ofother people who were doing that but for those concepts and those ideas
(11:56):
to come out of you at such an early stage in your writing career is just incredible.
It really, really is.
I was lying on the floor listening to Spoonface Steinberg and I was like, wow.
Like, no wonder Lee's gone on to win like everything.
Do you feel like you're like, like, like when you're sitting there writing, you'rethinking, this is good.
(12:19):
I know that this is good.
Or are you, are are you just writing?
What are you thinking?
I suppose, because I've done it for a long time now.
I try and write, I don't, sometimes I can't write every day, but I know that when I'm, theplaywriting days, if you like, I try and do a nine to five and I always try and do maybe
(12:44):
five pages of stuff, which isn't a lot when it's in a play format.
um
But I think, and so I don't really try and worry about if it's so great, but because youjust have to be there and then sometimes, and I think lots of writers talk about this,
(13:09):
sometimes just something seems to take over and the ideas are like ahead of you and you'rekind of trying to type them down.
And sometimes,
I type something and then I just burst out laughing because it's funny, but I hadn't knownit was funny until it had been written down.
And I think it's, you know, it's an experience I think a lot of writers have that I guessit's your unconscious or it's your muse, whatever metaphor you use, it's something that
(13:40):
you're not necessarily deliberately able to do, because then every day would be brilliant.
And, but it's kind of, you sort of, sort of, and if you're lucky, you can catch onto thatfeeling and just keep going.
And then after a little bit, it drops off and then you go, oh, I don't know what happensnext or whatever.
(14:03):
But I remember that Spoonface when I wrote it.
I read and read and read and I, for anybody who doesn't know it, um it's an hour alongmonologue for a nine year old autistic girl.
And I just, had this idea that that's what I wanted to do for the radio, because I don'tknow why.
(14:25):
I thought, and I didn't think, I didn't know if it was possible for a nine year old toactually act it.
um And she did it brilliantly.
um And I didn't really know, I had a rough idea of themes, uh but then I wrote it.
(14:47):
That's the only thing I've written which, it took me two days and I wrote it almost, youknow, I wrote for about five hours each day and that was it and I didn't touch it.
So it's quite rare to get that sort automatic writing thing where it just spiels out.
(15:09):
But I think in every play I've written there's a little bit that the writing takes overyou, I suppose.
Um, yeah.
But I think it's because you're accessing something that you know much more deeply thanjust that your normal language are putting something, the craft of things.
(15:39):
It's because you're saying something um that you know in a different way than learning, ifyou see what I mean.
Okay, okay, right, and it's not about the subject you're writing about it's about the likeyou said the actual act of writing
it's sort of like, it's like, um well, I'm sure you know as a performer that you know whenyou hit something real and you've accessed something there, you know the lines and you've
(16:10):
done them a few times, but you can watch it in a performer that you can see that they can,in a rehearsal, can see them say those same things loads of times and then suddenly one
time,
something clicks inside of that person and you can feel it yourself.
There's some energy, I don't know what it is, but...
(16:35):
then once you've found it, you can repeat it, know, a performer can repeat it, but inrehearsal, I'm sure you've had that experience.
yeah, yeah, when I've been learning stuff, I have a there's like a wave when I'm like,I've got the lines now and then when I'm really really really in there, it's like I almost
um forget that I've done it if that makes sense.
(16:55):
It's like you're not within yourself.
You actually become the character It's a strange feeling.
Yeah
And so that's a bit like being inside the creation of the character is that that samething suddenly you forget you're trying to invent it and it invents itself because you've
hit on something.
I don't know what it is.
(17:15):
I don't know what it is in performers either that you it's it's all it's it's almost likeyou forget yourself to create the thing.
watching and listening to your work, can, now that I'm speaking to you, I totally get whatyou're saying because it was so easy to listen to.
That hour just went by and anything else I've watched, it just flown by and you're like,oh, where, I've watched the whole thing and like, it felt like two minutes because it's
(17:42):
natural and it just flown.
And you can feel like that you're not trying to find it.
And I guess if you did try, you might lose it, right?
If you over thought, overthinking things.
So.
When you're saying about that you don't have those days when you don't write, is thatdeliberately not?
Mostly it's because I find it hard to do like today when we're going to do thisconversation.
(18:11):
I haven't written today, I won't write today because I think I need to be in a sort zonewhere nothing else is happening.
and I just, I can get into it, I get up and do it very early and I don't stop until I'mexhausted kind of thing.
But if, if get up and read the news and then my brain is full of other stuff and I find itmuch harder.
(18:37):
Hey, it's so interesting listening to people's methods, isn't it?
I mean, sorry, go on.
You were going to say something.
think everybody's different, but because I've been doing it for 30 odd years, know what'seasiest, what's the easiest situation to get to that space.
(18:57):
um
you know, you get in the groove or there's a flow.
mean, the music metaphors are easier to sort of understand, I suppose, because they'remore...
that they're more instant if you're playing something and you hit that thing and it reallyworks.
(19:22):
And that's what all writers are trying to do, to get in that groove and then stay in it aslong as you can to see what you can get out of it.
So if you've started writing and then say someone comes and disturbs you is that ruin forthe rest of the day or can you get back into Where you were a minute ago?
I can and uh you have to because there's always meetings or you have to do something, youknow, but it's harder to for sure, for me.
(19:52):
And I have the privilege of being able to do that.
I'm not doing other jobs.
For instance, I only do this job.
But I think I...
You know, but I think people, you know, if you've got kids or something, you snatchwhatever time you can.
(20:13):
And I'm sure I would have uh had to do that.
But I've been lucky enough to only be a writer for a long time.
to only be around and give like hundreds of millions of people lots of joy.
All right, across the world.
You know, just that.
That tiny little thing.
It's so great, honestly.
So, you were saying that, you know, maybe being a writer isn't something maybe you wereexpected to do, perhaps, being from the North East.
(20:42):
What was like the reaction from your family and friends and stuff when you were like, I'mgoing to go and do a creative thing?
It's sort of, I think my family were like baffled.
My dad used to, he...
Originally he'd worked in the shipyards and then he had a van, used to go around cleaningpeople's carpets and their sofas and things.
(21:06):
And I used to work with him when I was a kid on the weekends, I used to go and movefurniture and do these things.
And he would say, um son, when you leave school, you'll work with me, we'll get you yourown van and we'll go.
And I was like, I'm not quite sure.
And um so they were bit baffled and they thought, well, I mean, nobody knew anybody who,well, we didn't really know people who'd gone to university, nevermind people who might
(21:37):
want to be a writer or something like that.
I um didn't really, so they had no idea, uh but I had these amazing teachers at school andalso outside of school.
there was this, this basically was a youth theatre, it was like a youth club, but theyused to do, they used to let us put on plays there.
(22:03):
And then people from the university would come down, teach us about Bertolt Brecht andthis type of thing.
was really mad, really.
um And so a lot of my friends from Newcastle, from Tyneside, we met.
And a lot of them I still work with today um because a lot of them went to become actorsand um
(22:28):
I went off and then became a writer.
So by the time we were in my mid-20s and we'd come back from training, as it were, back toNewcastle, there was a group of people who I'd known already for, I'd worked with and put
on plays with for 10 years.
And so I could write for them and they knew how to do my words.
(22:50):
so the radio plays that I first wrote and some theatre plays and even
Billy Elliot came out of this group of people and me writing for people who were myfriends um and um we've had this relationship for the last, I think getting on 40 years
(23:12):
now.
That's brilliant, isn't it?
I mean, that's lovely to have that collaboration over that span of time with some of yourfriends in the Pitman painters
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think at least half of the Pittman painters were either from myschool or from this youth theatre that we went to when we were sort of 16, 17.
(23:35):
And then there was a few older characters who obviously weren't a part of our group.
Yes, so they were all my friends and by the time we did the Pittman Paint as we'd donesort of, you know, eight or nine different shows together in different formats.
So, eh and because I guess that I don't see being a writer as being isolated from, you'repart of a company of people or a group of people.
(24:09):
um
And it is, well, as you know, it's such a collaborative um medium that I think one of thegreat pleasures is creating something with a group of people.
Whereas if you're a poet or a novelist or something, you're very much, you're on your own,basically.
(24:33):
But the joy of theatre is other people.
For sure.
They can also drive you mad, of course.
But uh it's sort of so joyous to have created something in your bedroom on the computerand then you give it to an actor and
(25:03):
it sings in a way that you can't, couldn't have imagined because everybody's bringingthemselves to this thing.
so it's just a joyous moment when you go, oh, either that's what I meant or, my God, Imeant that.
It's incredible.
And both things can happen.
(25:25):
can be really surprised what you think it means isn't necessarily what it means when it'sin somebody else's
um body and voice and that's quite an incredible thing.
discovering new things about your writing like you said like I didn't realize that's whatI meant it is um just working with your friends and because they know that because they
(25:50):
know your words so well are they able to just grasp the characters really really quicklyare they like almost in your head yeah
I work with that group of people, uh think also because even if I'm not writingspecifically for that actor, although quite often I do, um so I know what works for them.
(26:11):
But they also know if I'm writing about somebody else from the Northeast.
who that person was, know, what kind of person that was, uh what they would eat, how theywould stand, what they would think and say and feel.
um And that's a good shortcut.
uh And so I don't have to explain very much.
(26:35):
They get it because they can recognize the signs in what I've written.
Now that's lovely as well, sorry, sorry, just thinking about going back to the culturalthing and getting people who were from there, born and bred and all, have been around and
steeped in the culture for such a long time.
You can't kind of replicate that really unless you go off and do a Daniel Day Lewis orsomething, you know?
(26:56):
Yeah, exactly.
mean, I think the thing about acting, you know, is it's transformative.
People can be...
The whole point is you're being somebody else.
However, if you can access and recognise something...
(27:18):
from your culture, it's gonna be richer and it's gonna...
And I think that Daniel DeLogos isn't...
uh You can, but it takes an awful lot of work for an actor to be able to inhabit somethingwhich is completely outside of their culture.
I think both things are possible, but it's just one of the joys that I've done is...
(27:42):
I mean, even Billy Elliot surprised me because...
people would say that the Northeastern accent was quite a hard one to replicate, yet we'dgo to America and the voice, the person training the kids would make them sound exactly
like a Geordie, but they were from like Brooklyn or something.
(28:02):
How is that possible?
So one of the joys of theatre is transformation and another joy is to be able to holdsomething which is uniquely yours and a unique
from your own culture and share that.
And so the sort of twin bits of theatre, which I love.
(28:25):
So you're on tour at the minute and then you actually so you're researching a film.
Are you allowed to tell us anything about it or is it all?
I can't tell you about it.
It's a film.
I was commissioned by an American producer to write about a pianist called Glenn Gould.
And Glenn Gould was a Canadian pianist.
(28:48):
And in 1955, he played, he made a record of some Bach that's called the GoldbergVariations.
And it became the best selling classical LP of that era.
and he was very young, was about 23, and he was a genius, and nobody really played Bachlike this guy.
(29:11):
And so he sort of made Bach popular in a way that he was, in the classical world, in a waythat he'd been sort of seen as like, you know, why are you playing that old rubbish?
But key to the story is that one of the reasons he was so absolutely brilliant
(29:33):
is because it's very clear now he was autistic and he had this brilliant capacity to playand he was extremely uh clever but um
He wouldn't shake hands with anybody.
He would wrap himself up in this big coat and wear gloves all the time.
(29:53):
He was very, very um awkward in public and hated.
And when he was 30, he gave up playing in public because he just couldn't stand being ondisplay.
um And so the film is really about him being an
(30:15):
Undiagnosed and and so what he did was he medicated himself by going to doctors and askingfor you know Sedatives and Valium and all of these things and and died really quite young
because he kind of ruined himself But because he didn't really act this is my idea that hedidn't understand that he was Neurodivergent because it wasn't the thing then and so he
(30:41):
was trying to cure something that you can't cure.
It's just
who you are if you're autistic.
um So it's this story, but again it's got all this music in it which is the bit I love andthe bit is why I think that they asked me to do this.
But I've been researching and I've been talking to some people who knew him and they'requite old now but um I'm getting them when I can.
(31:11):
So where have you had to go in order to speak to all these people or do you do it online?
I've been doing a lot online, I went to...
that Glengar was supposed to have never had a relationship ever, because he lived with hisparents for a long time and then he lived alone.
um But a 96-year-old woman has very recently come out and said that she...
(31:36):
uh
Her husband was his best friend and she left her husband and went to live with this, uh,Glenn, this pianist and took her kids to live with him.
And so part of big part of the movie is like they arrive there, but.
what happens to the relationship when he's never lived with anybody and he's sort of, he'sautistic and finds the whole thing of falling in love like completely um undoes him.
(32:06):
that's a big part.
So I've been talking to her um about what actually happened, because she's not really saidthis in public before, because it was all very secret.
um
So it's been fascinating to find um this story that nobody's really told before.
(32:26):
bet it has, yeah.
And so how long have you been researching it for and how long do you think it'll take youto put the screenplay together?
um I think I've been researching it for the last sort of maybe eight months and um I thinkit'll take about three months and I've been writing for about a month and I think it'll
(32:47):
take about three months to write.
It takes me about, probably about, between three and six months to write a screenplay.
for the first time and then you go over again and again and again and again.
I mean, most screenplays, they take people years and you know, it's very, very rare to beworking on a screenplay that gets made straight away.
(33:17):
So, I mean, you might go through maybe 20, 30 drafts, I think once, especially when...
you get directors and actors and producers and funders because they all kind of read itand see different things or want different things out of it.
uh And also you find, you know, you find different things that once you've written it andstep back and think, my, that it needs to change there or that beginning doesn't work.
(33:46):
so I kind of see writing, whether it's plays or...
or films, it's a bit like tending a garden rather than building a sculpture.
It's always changing and you have to go back and change things.
(34:06):
And you might lift out that bush and put it somewhere else, but it constantly needs kindof tending, which is, and because I think also even when a show is running, it sort of
changes because the performers
find things and it changes and they find things clearer or easier or and and sometimesthey're taking it too far.
(34:34):
And you to drag them back.
it's never the same every night.
But over a period of time, you can also go, I missed something that they are able toreveal to you that you go, oh, I see you don't need that speech or you do need something
for that character here.
(34:55):
And the great thing about theatre is you can go back and change that.
Sometimes it's hard once the run is going.
But if you get a new cast or you transfer it to a tour, very often I'll use thatopportunity to go and make some changes because I've seen things that I hadn't seen when
(35:17):
we started rehearsal.
It's really interesting how it's a oh living thing.
m
With film, you kind of have to just have it there.
It is it's set in stone and then just let it go, I suppose, because it's not like you cango go back.
I mean, there's always the director's cut, isn't there?
Like, you know, 15 years after Godfather came out, you know, whatever it is.
(35:39):
But I guess it's one of those things where we can't.
live and breathe and grow and you can't film extra scenes because it's ages later andeveryone's aged you know or something like that you've got to just do it um that's right
is there a preference between the two or are they just completely different mediums andthen that's it
um I think, I mean, it's much more, I think I write more naturally in a screenplay formbecause I think quite visually, so it's easier for me to say, oh we're here in Newcastle
(36:17):
in a bar and then...
they're up in the countryside in the next scene and to use those, I think like that.
What's hard about theatre is kind of, have to get your characters and actors on and off.
You know, can't just cut and by magic, you have to think.
So it's quite complicated in terms of the craft of the thing and just to make it feelright.
(36:42):
But it's much more fun making theatre because in a film,
you're in a room, nobody's ever all in the same, all the people who are involved in a filmare never in the same place apart from maybe the read through and then the premiere or
something.
(37:04):
In theatre, everybody has to be there every night and every rehearsal.
And so that is a completely different experience because you're sharing it with and makingit with a group of people.
And that's true of a film, but that weirdly that group of people might not even know eachother because somebody is in the edit suite and then somebody's doing something on the
(37:32):
set.
and you just, it's like passed along a long, long, long chain of people.
And everybody's important in that chain, but in the theatre, you are very often in thesame room making it happen.
Yeah, yeah, and guess with theatre, in terms of your writing and everything, you can getprobably instant feedback in previews or in rehearsals to be like, yeah, that works, that
(38:00):
doesn't work.
But I guess when it's filming, it's like, well, we just gotta wait until we have ascreening.
Well, I think in film that it's the edit room that you can try out different combinationsand see what and you can make something, you can make a scene up that you haven't actually
(38:23):
written.
If you take bits from all sorts of things and you can take a sentence from there.
somebody saying no to where you hadn't written that and make a new scene where somebodysays something that they didn't actually in real life.
um But definitely, as you pointed out, that you rehearse a play and then you put it infront of people and it's only then you really start to find out what you've done.
(38:55):
And very often um it's
you go, didn't know it would do that.
Like sometimes an audience can react badly or very, very well to certain bits.
And so I think that's why they have previews is that it's a chance to really shape and cutsomething um because theatre's not finished until that audience, theatre is about the
(39:27):
audience meeting.
this group of people who are and until that happens you haven't you haven't completed theprocess and when that when that when those two things come together you know you really
want to kind of you shave bits off to make it a good fit
Welcome to Stage and Screen with me, Me'sha Bryan.
Today I'll be speaking with writer and lyricist Lee Hall, who is perhaps best known forwriting the screenplay for Billy Elliot, as well as penning the book and lyrics for its
subsequent adaptation into a musical.
The story has gone on to win multiple awards, ranging from the BAFTA for OutstandingBritish Film, to several Tony, Olivier and Drama Desk awards, including Best Musical,
(00:40):
Outstanding Book of a Musical,
and best book of a musical.
Lee's multifaceted work spans genres, media and performance outlets, from the silverscreen to radio to international theatre.
He's currently researching the screenplay for an upcoming film and he recently adaptedBertolt Brecht's Mother Courage and Her Children, which opened at Horden Methodist Church
(01:02):
a few days ago.
I am thrilled and honoured that Lee has taken time out of his busy schedule to speak withme today and Lee, welcome to the show.
Oh, I'm very, very pleased to be here.
Thank you.
How is everything going?
Because you're busy with the play and with your research and just with life.
So how are you juggling all of that?
Well, it's been quite a busy year so far because um most of the things I did a long timeago and they've just come into production.
(01:34):
So I did an opera at the Royal Opera House, which was kind of mad and fun.
And then this uh production that is a collaboration with a theatre that I worked with inSouth Africa.
And the people from there are working in the next town along from Easington, which iswhere Billy Elliot's set and we've been doing uh a version of Mother Courage.
(02:05):
um And it's half the South African troop and half people from the Northeast.
uh And it was fantastic.
um Because the South Africans have...
uh
A lot of the music is South African music and they play uh marimbas and they brought themarimbas with them and have taught the Geordies how to play.
(02:28):
So there's this marimba orchestra uh and it's absolutely fantastic.
So it's been really exciting because it's like these two bits of the world coming togetherum to make something kind of unique.
um But it's kind of because it's where Billy Elliot was set.
It's like a big journey because it's 25 years since the film came out.
(02:52):
And it's really nice to be working up in the Northeast again.
I bet it is.
And the thing is, it's because you're so international, like, you know, the Geordies havenow been able to learn how to play marimba.
Yeah, it's amazing.
It's an amazing ah thing that you can bring people together from all sorts of cultures tomake something new.
(03:18):
It's such a privilege.
Absolutely.
Did you have all of the kind of the South African music in your head the whole time?
Like when you were adapting it were you thinking I'm gonna get the people that I know youknow to come over from South Africa and kind of put this together and you heard it or did
it kind of develop and grow as you were going along?
I had been working with the company about 10 years ago on a different Brecht play that wewere going to do in Cape Town.
(03:46):
um The company is called the Isango and uh they are an all-black company um largely fromum the townships.
Calicia, which is just outside of Cape Town.
But unfortunately, uh lots of things happened with the funding for that production and wecouldn't actually make it.
(04:10):
So I've been wanting to do something with them.
And this guy, Mark Dawn Formay who was one of the co-founders, uh came over to Durhambecause they wanted him to do something for...
They were going to do the City of Culture in Durham, but that...
that didn't happen either.
But they liked um his proposal so much that he started up this theatre company on the samebasis as the theatre company in South Africa, um where they train...
(04:39):
um
people as well as form the company.
it's a sort of way of training new actors, but they form a company and do new work.
So it made a lot of sense to bring some members of the company from South Africa becausethey'd done this process before and it's a wonderful collaboration.
(05:01):
It really is.
And what's lovely as well is that there's so many people who don't have access to kind oftraining and kind of getting into theatre and being able to be around and become
professional as well and do it properly where people are paying to come and see you.
So just to have that opportunity to be around people and work with people like you, likethat's insane.
(05:21):
They get to work with Lee Hall, that's mental.
And I guess for some people it might be their first job as well.
It's everybody's first, apart from the South Africans who have done this for many years inSouth Africa, but all the British people are, it's their first job.
So it's really exciting.
from you and from that area as well.
(05:42):
all just from Durham and largely from this few towns which are all basically the BillyElliot towns.
it's, yeah, it's really exciting because I think it's become harder and harder for youngpeople to get training because it's so expensive.
(06:06):
Yeah.
If you can't travel away from...
from say the Northeast, it's really, really problematic because it used to be a lot easierin my day.
so anything I can do to make that easier for um the next generation of performers andartists, uh well, again, it's a real privilege to be able to do a little bit to help.
(06:35):
What I like about you and just your work is that you're so proud of being from the NorthEast, you know, and you're all there's always like little hints of, oh my heritage and
where I came from and all of that stuff.
Because I know that you studied at Cambridge, didn't you?
Yeah.
And then but there's always it's not like I'm from the North East and I went to Cambridgeand then I forget about everything else.
(06:56):
It's like, no, actually, roots and society and giving back to where you came from is quiteimportant to you, isn't it?
Oh, yeah, very much.
Well, I mean, I suppose like a lot of people, I came to theatre and this whole world uhwithout knowing anybody in it and not really expecting to um ever be allowed into that
(07:25):
thing.
um But always...
When I first started the camp, well, what have I got to give?
know, these people know much more about it than me.
And then I realized, well, actually, wherever you're from, you bring so much.
culture with you.
Culture is not something that is just posh and you learn it.
(07:46):
It's actually, it's the life, the community that you've lived in and been brought up inand realizing that there were so many stories and so many ways of telling stories and
music and the poetry of everyday life and
you know, the poetry of the Northeast, the dialect and things that was so rich andactually that's why I could give to other people by allowing, you know, showing that off.
(08:17):
Things that kind of...
I don't think people look down on different cultures, but they don't have access to themunless you make something which celebrates where you're from.
so um I clocked quite early on that instead of trying to write sort of the posh RoyalCourt play or whatever that I thought I needed to do is actually I should just, you know,
(08:46):
be myself and tell the stories of me and my friends and the...
neighbors and my family and that's how Billy Elliot happened and a lot of other things andthen that's led to doing things which aren't about my culture at all but because I learned
a bit of craft and storytelling in doing that.
(09:08):
Yeah, and it's wonderful that you're showing that the regions outside of the South havesomething to give and stories to tell and quality as well.
That's the other thing, isn't it?
Because I'm a very proud Midlander from Wolverhampton.
I'm like, hey, man, we need more stuff happening in the Midlands.
uh We need a Lee Hall in the Midlands.
No, quite correct.
(09:29):
Well, you know, think one of the things, well, it's probably about everywhere, but I'veonly, I was brought up in England, but you know, where you're from, the local identity is
so, it's so rich and so clear.
And so, you know, and the way you speak, it's so fantastic to hear you, you know, um andwe need, you know, and that's what makes stories.
(09:54):
The great thing about theatre is,
The more specific and local you make it, the more universal it is.
And that's why I think things like Billy Elliot, you know, there was a uh production inKorea going on at the minute and another one in Japan.
um it's the second or third time they've done it in Japan, Korea.
(10:16):
But if I thought 30 years ago when I sat down to write it that anybody would do it outsideof Newcastle.
you
I would have just laughed.
So that's the marvelous thing about theatre and especially musical theatre as well becauseum it has this ability to travel and speak to people.
(10:43):
Thank you so much for watching and listening.
However you're consuming this podcast, please consider subscribing, liking and leaving usa five-star review as this helps us to reach a wider audience.
Your support is very much appreciated.
Now back to the show.
The thing is about you, I'm like one of your fans, I'm like, I'm gushing over here.
(11:07):
I re-watched Billy Elliot the other day and yesterday I had another listen to SpoonfaceSteinberg.
Oh wow.
As well.
I did.
I did.
I managed to find out for digging and digging for like ages and just I was going to askyou about how your writing has developed over the years but just from the beginning you
were just amazing, right?
You're just one of the- Oh yeah.
(11:30):
Naturally talented because I was watching I was thinking oh my god the layers in thisbecause I remember when you read some of my stuff you were like, okay We got the layers
and the depth within these characters But it's like you automatically had that gift justwith you anyway, because you said you didn't know anybody who was in the industry Maybe
you read a lot of books and and probably placed yourself within the the environments ofother people who were doing that but for those concepts and those ideas
(11:56):
to come out of you at such an early stage in your writing career is just incredible.
It really, really is.
I was lying on the floor listening to Spoonface Steinberg and I was like, wow.
Like, no wonder Lee's gone on to win like everything.
Do you feel like you're like, like, like when you're sitting there writing, you'rethinking, this is good.
(12:19):
I know that this is good.
Or are you, are are you just writing?
What are you thinking?
I suppose, because I've done it for a long time now.
I try and write, I don't, sometimes I can't write every day, but I know that when I'm, theplaywriting days, if you like, I try and do a nine to five and I always try and do maybe
(12:44):
five pages of stuff, which isn't a lot when it's in a play format.
um
But I think, and so I don't really try and worry about if it's so great, but because youjust have to be there and then sometimes, and I think lots of writers talk about this,
(13:09):
sometimes just something seems to take over and the ideas are like ahead of you and you'rekind of trying to type them down.
And sometimes,
I type something and then I just burst out laughing because it's funny, but I hadn't knownit was funny until it had been written down.
And I think it's, you know, it's an experience I think a lot of writers have that I guessit's your unconscious or it's your muse, whatever metaphor you use, it's something that
(13:40):
you're not necessarily deliberately able to do, because then every day would be brilliant.
And, but it's kind of, you sort of, sort of, and if you're lucky, you can catch onto thatfeeling and just keep going.
And then after a little bit, it drops off and then you go, oh, I don't know what happensnext or whatever.
(14:03):
But I remember that Spoonface when I wrote it.
I read and read and read and I, for anybody who doesn't know it, um it's an hour alongmonologue for a nine year old autistic girl.
And I just, had this idea that that's what I wanted to do for the radio, because I don'tknow why.
(14:25):
I thought, and I didn't think, I didn't know if it was possible for a nine year old toactually act it.
um And she did it brilliantly.
um And I didn't really know, I had a rough idea of themes, uh but then I wrote it.
(14:47):
That's the only thing I've written which, it took me two days and I wrote it almost, youknow, I wrote for about five hours each day and that was it and I didn't touch it.
So it's quite rare to get that sort automatic writing thing where it just spiels out.
(15:09):
But I think in every play I've written there's a little bit that the writing takes overyou, I suppose.
Um, yeah.
But I think it's because you're accessing something that you know much more deeply thanjust that your normal language are putting something, the craft of things.
(15:39):
It's because you're saying something um that you know in a different way than learning, ifyou see what I mean.
Okay, okay, right, and it's not about the subject you're writing about it's about the likeyou said the actual act of writing
it's sort of like, it's like, um well, I'm sure you know as a performer that you know whenyou hit something real and you've accessed something there, you know the lines and you've
(16:10):
done them a few times, but you can watch it in a performer that you can see that they can,in a rehearsal, can see them say those same things loads of times and then suddenly one
time,
something clicks inside of that person and you can feel it yourself.
There's some energy, I don't know what it is, but...
(16:35):
then once you've found it, you can repeat it, know, a performer can repeat it, but inrehearsal, I'm sure you've had that experience.
yeah, yeah, when I've been learning stuff, I have a there's like a wave when I'm like,I've got the lines now and then when I'm really really really in there, it's like I almost
um forget that I've done it if that makes sense.
(16:55):
It's like you're not within yourself.
You actually become the character It's a strange feeling.
Yeah
And so that's a bit like being inside the creation of the character is that that samething suddenly you forget you're trying to invent it and it invents itself because you've
hit on something.
I don't know what it is.
(17:15):
I don't know what it is in performers either that you it's it's all it's it's almost likeyou forget yourself to create the thing.
watching and listening to your work, can, now that I'm speaking to you, I totally get whatyou're saying because it was so easy to listen to.
That hour just went by and anything else I've watched, it just flown by and you're like,oh, where, I've watched the whole thing and like, it felt like two minutes because it's
(17:42):
natural and it just flown.
And you can feel like that you're not trying to find it.
And I guess if you did try, you might lose it, right?
If you over thought, overthinking things.
So.
When you're saying about that you don't have those days when you don't write, is thatdeliberately not?
Mostly it's because I find it hard to do like today when we're going to do thisconversation.
(18:11):
I haven't written today, I won't write today because I think I need to be in a sort zonewhere nothing else is happening.
and I just, I can get into it, I get up and do it very early and I don't stop until I'mexhausted kind of thing.
But if, if get up and read the news and then my brain is full of other stuff and I find itmuch harder.
(18:37):
Hey, it's so interesting listening to people's methods, isn't it?
I mean, sorry, go on.
You were going to say something.
think everybody's different, but because I've been doing it for 30 odd years, know what'seasiest, what's the easiest situation to get to that space.
(18:57):
um
you know, you get in the groove or there's a flow.
mean, the music metaphors are easier to sort of understand, I suppose, because they'remore...
that they're more instant if you're playing something and you hit that thing and it reallyworks.
(19:22):
And that's what all writers are trying to do, to get in that groove and then stay in it aslong as you can to see what you can get out of it.
So if you've started writing and then say someone comes and disturbs you is that ruin forthe rest of the day or can you get back into Where you were a minute ago?
I can and uh you have to because there's always meetings or you have to do something, youknow, but it's harder to for sure, for me.
(19:52):
And I have the privilege of being able to do that.
I'm not doing other jobs.
For instance, I only do this job.
But I think I...
You know, but I think people, you know, if you've got kids or something, you snatchwhatever time you can.
(20:13):
And I'm sure I would have uh had to do that.
But I've been lucky enough to only be a writer for a long time.
to only be around and give like hundreds of millions of people lots of joy.
All right, across the world.
You know, just that.
That tiny little thing.
It's so great, honestly.
So, you were saying that, you know, maybe being a writer isn't something maybe you wereexpected to do, perhaps, being from the North East.
(20:42):
What was like the reaction from your family and friends and stuff when you were like, I'mgoing to go and do a creative thing?
It's sort of, I think my family were like baffled.
My dad used to, he...
Originally he'd worked in the shipyards and then he had a van, used to go around cleaningpeople's carpets and their sofas and things.
(21:06):
And I used to work with him when I was a kid on the weekends, I used to go and movefurniture and do these things.
And he would say, um son, when you leave school, you'll work with me, we'll get you yourown van and we'll go.
And I was like, I'm not quite sure.
And um so they were bit baffled and they thought, well, I mean, nobody knew anybody who,well, we didn't really know people who'd gone to university, nevermind people who might
(21:37):
want to be a writer or something like that.
I um didn't really, so they had no idea, uh but I had these amazing teachers at school andalso outside of school.
there was this, this basically was a youth theatre, it was like a youth club, but theyused to do, they used to let us put on plays there.
(22:03):
And then people from the university would come down, teach us about Bertolt Brecht andthis type of thing.
was really mad, really.
um And so a lot of my friends from Newcastle, from Tyneside, we met.
And a lot of them I still work with today um because a lot of them went to become actorsand um
(22:28):
I went off and then became a writer.
So by the time we were in my mid-20s and we'd come back from training, as it were, back toNewcastle, there was a group of people who I'd known already for, I'd worked with and put
on plays with for 10 years.
And so I could write for them and they knew how to do my words.
(22:50):
so the radio plays that I first wrote and some theatre plays and even
Billy Elliot came out of this group of people and me writing for people who were myfriends um and um we've had this relationship for the last, I think getting on 40 years
(23:12):
now.
That's brilliant, isn't it?
I mean, that's lovely to have that collaboration over that span of time with some of yourfriends in the Pitman painters
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think at least half of the Pittman painters were either from myschool or from this youth theatre that we went to when we were sort of 16, 17.
(23:35):
And then there was a few older characters who obviously weren't a part of our group.
Yes, so they were all my friends and by the time we did the Pittman Paint as we'd donesort of, you know, eight or nine different shows together in different formats.
So, eh and because I guess that I don't see being a writer as being isolated from, you'repart of a company of people or a group of people.
(24:09):
um
And it is, well, as you know, it's such a collaborative um medium that I think one of thegreat pleasures is creating something with a group of people.
Whereas if you're a poet or a novelist or something, you're very much, you're on your own,basically.
(24:33):
But the joy of theatre is other people.
For sure.
They can also drive you mad, of course.
But uh it's sort of so joyous to have created something in your bedroom on the computerand then you give it to an actor and
(25:03):
it sings in a way that you can't, couldn't have imagined because everybody's bringingthemselves to this thing.
so it's just a joyous moment when you go, oh, either that's what I meant or, my God, Imeant that.
It's incredible.
And both things can happen.
(25:25):
can be really surprised what you think it means isn't necessarily what it means when it'sin somebody else's
um body and voice and that's quite an incredible thing.
discovering new things about your writing like you said like I didn't realize that's whatI meant it is um just working with your friends and because they know that because they
(25:50):
know your words so well are they able to just grasp the characters really really quicklyare they like almost in your head yeah
I work with that group of people, uh think also because even if I'm not writingspecifically for that actor, although quite often I do, um so I know what works for them.
(26:11):
But they also know if I'm writing about somebody else from the Northeast.
who that person was, know, what kind of person that was, uh what they would eat, how theywould stand, what they would think and say and feel.
um And that's a good shortcut.
uh And so I don't have to explain very much.
(26:35):
They get it because they can recognize the signs in what I've written.
Now that's lovely as well, sorry, sorry, just thinking about going back to the culturalthing and getting people who were from there, born and bred and all, have been around and
steeped in the culture for such a long time.
You can't kind of replicate that really unless you go off and do a Daniel Day Lewis orsomething, you know?
(26:56):
Yeah, exactly.
mean, I think the thing about acting, you know, is it's transformative.
People can be...
The whole point is you're being somebody else.
However, if you can access and recognise something...
(27:18):
from your culture, it's gonna be richer and it's gonna...
And I think that Daniel DeLogos isn't...
uh You can, but it takes an awful lot of work for an actor to be able to inhabit somethingwhich is completely outside of their culture.
I think both things are possible, but it's just one of the joys that I've done is...
(27:42):
I mean, even Billy Elliot surprised me because...
people would say that the Northeastern accent was quite a hard one to replicate, yet we'dgo to America and the voice, the person training the kids would make them sound exactly
like a Geordie, but they were from like Brooklyn or something.
(28:02):
How is that possible?
So one of the joys of theatre is transformation and another joy is to be able to holdsomething which is uniquely yours and a unique
from your own culture and share that.
And so the sort of twin bits of theatre, which I love.
(28:25):
So you're on tour at the minute and then you actually so you're researching a film.
Are you allowed to tell us anything about it or is it all?
I can't tell you about it.
It's a film.
I was commissioned by an American producer to write about a pianist called Glenn Gould.
And Glenn Gould was a Canadian pianist.
(28:48):
And in 1955, he played, he made a record of some Bach that's called the GoldbergVariations.
And it became the best selling classical LP of that era.
and he was very young, was about 23, and he was a genius, and nobody really played Bachlike this guy.
(29:11):
And so he sort of made Bach popular in a way that he was, in the classical world, in a waythat he'd been sort of seen as like, you know, why are you playing that old rubbish?
But key to the story is that one of the reasons he was so absolutely brilliant
(29:33):
is because it's very clear now he was autistic and he had this brilliant capacity to playand he was extremely uh clever but um
He wouldn't shake hands with anybody.
He would wrap himself up in this big coat and wear gloves all the time.
(29:53):
He was very, very um awkward in public and hated.
And when he was 30, he gave up playing in public because he just couldn't stand being ondisplay.
um And so the film is really about him being an
(30:15):
Undiagnosed and and so what he did was he medicated himself by going to doctors and askingfor you know Sedatives and Valium and all of these things and and died really quite young
because he kind of ruined himself But because he didn't really act this is my idea that hedidn't understand that he was Neurodivergent because it wasn't the thing then and so he
(30:41):
was trying to cure something that you can't cure.
It's just
who you are if you're autistic.
um So it's this story, but again it's got all this music in it which is the bit I love andthe bit is why I think that they asked me to do this.
But I've been researching and I've been talking to some people who knew him and they'requite old now but um I'm getting them when I can.
(31:11):
So where have you had to go in order to speak to all these people or do you do it online?
I've been doing a lot online, I went to...
that Glengar was supposed to have never had a relationship ever, because he lived with hisparents for a long time and then he lived alone.
um But a 96-year-old woman has very recently come out and said that she...
(31:36):
uh
Her husband was his best friend and she left her husband and went to live with this, uh,Glenn, this pianist and took her kids to live with him.
And so part of big part of the movie is like they arrive there, but.
what happens to the relationship when he's never lived with anybody and he's sort of, he'sautistic and finds the whole thing of falling in love like completely um undoes him.
(32:06):
that's a big part.
So I've been talking to her um about what actually happened, because she's not really saidthis in public before, because it was all very secret.
um
So it's been fascinating to find um this story that nobody's really told before.
(32:26):
bet it has, yeah.
And so how long have you been researching it for and how long do you think it'll take youto put the screenplay together?
um I think I've been researching it for the last sort of maybe eight months and um I thinkit'll take about three months and I've been writing for about a month and I think it'll
(32:47):
take about three months to write.
It takes me about, probably about, between three and six months to write a screenplay.
for the first time and then you go over again and again and again and again.
I mean, most screenplays, they take people years and you know, it's very, very rare to beworking on a screenplay that gets made straight away.
(33:17):
So, I mean, you might go through maybe 20, 30 drafts, I think once, especially when...
you get directors and actors and producers and funders because they all kind of read itand see different things or want different things out of it.
uh And also you find, you know, you find different things that once you've written it andstep back and think, my, that it needs to change there or that beginning doesn't work.
(33:46):
so I kind of see writing, whether it's plays or...
or films, it's a bit like tending a garden rather than building a sculpture.
It's always changing and you have to go back and change things.
(34:06):
And you might lift out that bush and put it somewhere else, but it constantly needs kindof tending, which is, and because I think also even when a show is running, it sort of
changes because the performers
find things and it changes and they find things clearer or easier or and and sometimesthey're taking it too far.
(34:34):
And you to drag them back.
it's never the same every night.
But over a period of time, you can also go, I missed something that they are able toreveal to you that you go, oh, I see you don't need that speech or you do need something
for that character here.
(34:55):
And the great thing about theatre is you can go back and change that.
Sometimes it's hard once the run is going.
But if you get a new cast or you transfer it to a tour, very often I'll use thatopportunity to go and make some changes because I've seen things that I hadn't seen when
(35:17):
we started rehearsal.
It's really interesting how it's a oh living thing.
m
With film, you kind of have to just have it there.
It is it's set in stone and then just let it go, I suppose, because it's not like you cango go back.
I mean, there's always the director's cut, isn't there?
Like, you know, 15 years after Godfather came out, you know, whatever it is.
(35:39):
But I guess it's one of those things where we can't.
live and breathe and grow and you can't film extra scenes because it's ages later andeveryone's aged you know or something like that you've got to just do it um that's right
is there a preference between the two or are they just completely different mediums andthen that's it
um I think, I mean, it's much more, I think I write more naturally in a screenplay formbecause I think quite visually, so it's easier for me to say, oh we're here in Newcastle
(36:17):
in a bar and then...
they're up in the countryside in the next scene and to use those, I think like that.
What's hard about theatre is kind of, have to get your characters and actors on and off.
You know, can't just cut and by magic, you have to think.
So it's quite complicated in terms of the craft of the thing and just to make it feelright.
(36:42):
But it's much more fun making theatre because in a film,
you're in a room, nobody's ever all in the same, all the people who are involved in a filmare never in the same place apart from maybe the read through and then the premiere or
something.
(37:04):
In theatre, everybody has to be there every night and every rehearsal.
And so that is a completely different experience because you're sharing it with and makingit with a group of people.
And that's true of a film, but that weirdly that group of people might not even know eachother because somebody is in the edit suite and then somebody's doing something on the
(37:32):
set.
and you just, it's like passed along a long, long, long chain of people.
And everybody's important in that chain, but in the theatre, you are very often in thesame room making it happen.
Yeah, yeah, and guess with theatre, in terms of your writing and everything, you can getprobably instant feedback in previews or in rehearsals to be like, yeah, that works, that
(38:00):
doesn't work.
But I guess when it's filming, it's like, well, we just gotta wait until we have ascreening.
Well, I think in film that it's the edit room that you can try out different combinationsand see what and you can make something, you can make a scene up that you haven't actually
(38:23):
written.
If you take bits from all sorts of things and you can take a sentence from there.
somebody saying no to where you hadn't written that and make a new scene where somebodysays something that they didn't actually in real life.
um But definitely, as you pointed out, that you rehearse a play and then you put it infront of people and it's only then you really start to find out what you've done.
(38:55):
And very often um it's
you go, didn't know it would do that.
Like sometimes an audience can react badly or very, very well to certain bits.
And so I think that's why they have previews is that it's a chance to really shape and cutsomething um because theatre's not finished until that audience, theatre is about the
(39:27):
audience meeting.
this group of people who are and until that happens you haven't you haven't completed theprocess and when that when that when those two things come together you know you really
want to kind of you shave bits off to make it a good fit
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